From SWAT to Chief: Eddie Garcia’s No-BS Blueprint for Safer Streets

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
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(00:02):
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Thank you for listening.

(00:47):
All right, welcome back.
I'm your host, Eric Levine, andtoday I have the privilege of
interviewing the chief of FortWorth Police Department, Eddie
Garcia.
How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_02 (00:58):
I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
Thanks for having me.
Not a problem.
Um, this is the first time I'veformally got to meet you, but um
as we kind of talked offline, Ialso do this podcast stuff.
So they thought it'd be a goodfit for me to come in and try to
interview the new chief, try toget to know you on a more of a
personal level and try to letthe officers that are out there
know who they're working for.
All right.
Let's do it.
You ready?

(01:19):
Let's roll because I am going toask all the Oprah style
questions.
All right.
And get no deep into yourpsyche.
No, I'm not going to do allthat.
I just want to have fun, um, beloose.
And like I we kind of told you,it's kind of like a Rogan thing.
So um, first thing I want to getinto, sir, is there's a lot of
reasons people get into lawenforcement.
For me in particular, one of thethings that drew me into it was

(01:39):
my grandfather was afirefighter.
Um, my dad actually retired uhpolice uh from the department
that you're at now.
And those are two drawingfactors that got me into it, but
it wasn't the big reason thatdrew me into it.
The big reason that got me intolaw enforcement was when I would
go to like family reunions andstuff like that.
Who who got all the respect inthe family?

(02:03):
Who wanted who did people wantto sit down and talk to?
It was always first responders.
It didn't matter if it wasmilitary, uh, you know, doctors,
uh, any of that stuff.
It it came down to the firstresponder life.
It was the firefighters, themilitary, and police.
That's who everybody would sitdown and talk to.
And growing up, seeing that, howthey were the life of the party.

(02:24):
Everybody wanted to talk tothem.
That was kind of really the bigdraw for me into law
enforcement.
I wanted my family to respectwhat I did.
And I did have people in thefamily that, you know, did it,
like my dad and my grandfather.
That was another draw, but itwasn't the main factor.
It was just the way the familyrespected them.
And I wanted to earn theirrespect.
And I think that's what drew meinto law enforcement.

(02:45):
So I'm curious for a guy that'smade it all the way up as high
as you can go, what drew youinto it in the first place?

SPEAKER_02 (02:51):
Oh man, I my reasons were probably a lot simpler.
Uh, I'll be honest with you.
Like I uh when I was in highschool, my sophomore year, we
had this research paper calledan iSearch paper.
And it was like the biggest uhassignment you can do in your
English class, right?
My buddy at the time, his dadwas a sergeant for uh uh a
smaller city.

(03:11):
And I did my project on him andpolice work, right?
And I ended up starting to likeit.
And, you know, back, I'll tellyou this, back in the late 80s,
early 90s, when I got hired,anybody that got hired back then
that tells you the reason theywanted to be a police officer
wasn't because of the show copsat the time, would be lying to
you.

(03:31):
Uh, and I tell that to peopleall the time.
Walk out if someone says thatback in the late 80s, early 90s,
they became a cop and the showcops had nothing to do with it.
Man, I'll be frank with you.
I was young, I wanted to catchthe bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (03:43):
I mean, I'll be frank with you.
I wanted to, I wanted to catchcriminals.
That's what really drew me topolice work.
Um, and you know, having thatthat satisfaction, right?
The uh one of my first sergeantsalways would tell me we had a
lot, you know, beatresponsibility, things of that
nature.
And he would say, Hey, um, whenyou're a beat officer, you're
beat, you're the chief of policeof your beat.

(04:05):
Right.
Take that onus responsibility,man.
So I just I loved, I lovecatching crooks.
Yeah.
That's, I mean, I'd like to makeit sound like it was, you know,
I mean, you have great reasonsthat you wanted to be for me.
I wanted to catch the bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (04:17):
Um, you know, uh, it was helpful.
You know, I speak fluentSpanish, right?
So, you know, working with uhwith the community and and
working, working that andcatching crooks in all parts of
town, that's what I love doing.
That's what I wanted to do.
And uh it's kind of always beenpart of part of my cop DNA.
And that's that's really one ofthe reasons I wanted to be cop.

SPEAKER_00 (04:37):
Okay, so we're we're already kind of foreshadowing
into some of the stuff we'regonna talk to much later, but I
can guarantee right now, whenofficers hear their chief say
that, they're gonna be like,this might be my guy.
This might be my guy.

SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
I mean, we'll talk more about it.
I mean, I am who I am, and Iwear it on my sleeve, and I'm
very honest with people of how Igot promoted.
I got here a different path.
Um, I want people to knowthere's not one way to become a
chief if that's what they wantto do.
Um, but yeah, man, I just wantedto catch crooks.
That's that's that's that's as a21-year-old kid, that's one of
the reasons I wanted to solveproblems, solve people problems,

(05:10):
and I'd say by catching crooks,you're solving a lot of
problems.

SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
And so that's and cops was a major influence on
that.

SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
Cops was a huge I mean, who didn't want?

SPEAKER_00 (05:16):
I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_02 (05:17):
I mean, I don't know when it became taboo to like to
talk about like how cool thatshow was to see cops, you know,
taking the criminal element offthe street.

SPEAKER_00 (05:25):
Yeah, like Bro, as soon as you heard it, come on,
you were like, I'm in right now,I'm in.
As soon as you heard it.

SPEAKER_02 (05:31):
I mean, it was.
I mean, I'd say what, if youwere to look back and if people
were honest, those like me thatgot hired in the late 80s, early
90s, I mean, that that thereason why, like there's
probably there was a big hiringpush back then.
I remember when I applied to theSan Jose Police Department, um,
you know, they would have twobig hiring cycles a year, and
there's like 4,000 peopleapplied for 45 spots.

SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Right.
And that was a it was a usualthing.
I mean, I'm sure those um, andwhether it was cops, right?
Or whether it was the moviesthat showed or the you know, you
know, that showed all thatstuff, all that stuff played a
role.
But you kind of like, wow,that's that's freaking cool.
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, Iwanna catch crooks, I want to
solve people's problems, and Iwant to catch the criminal
element.

SPEAKER_00 (06:12):
Yep.
I remember when my dad was onit.
It wasn't your dad was on it,they didn't follow him, he just
showed up to a scene, and Iremember seeing him like, oh my
god.
Call him up, Dad, you got cops.
He's like, it showed up.
He didn't know that he was fullyin it.
And um, yeah, it was uh it wasone of those days you look up to
your dad, you're like, dang,that's awesome.

(06:33):
That's that's famous.
That's pretty cool, yeah.
I wish they would have followedhim around.
Yeah, but I mean Fort Worth wasone of their flagship cities
that they were at.
Um actually on my other sideprojects that I do for
podcasting, uh, we had JerryWorms, who's the very first
officer they ever followedaround out of uh Florida.

(06:53):
Um I can't remember.
Maybe it was Miami Dade, butyeah, we had him on.

SPEAKER_02 (06:57):
He was talking about Miami Dade, Broward County.
I think Broward County wasprobably on that show on that,
like constantly.

SPEAKER_00 (07:04):
He was famous because he carried nunchucks.
Ah, yeah.
Jerry Worms carried nunchucks,so badass.

SPEAKER_02 (07:09):
But uh San Diego PD used to have, I don't know if
they still do, but they used tohave nunchucks as part of their
uh Yeah, they called themfoldable batons, something like
that.

SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like, it's a nunchuck,bro.

SPEAKER_02 (07:19):
I was never, I was never, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
I was you mean you're product of the 80s.
We had the Ninja Turtles duringthat era.

SPEAKER_02 (07:24):
I mean, I'm I go I'm a product of the 70s, 80s, 90s,
and you name it, but uh butyeah, I was more of a straight
baton guy.
I wasn't really into the okaybut all right.

SPEAKER_00 (07:34):
So you jump into to law enforcement.
Um, did you take the typicalpath where you were like, I
gotta go get a degree, I gottago do this?

SPEAKER_02 (07:41):
What no, absolutely not, man.
I, you know, I was uh um, youknow, I applied, you know,
there's three places I wouldapply for, right?
I came born in Puerto Rico,moved to San Jose, California,
uh when I was when I was young.
Yeah, I was born on I was bornon the island, which is why I
have my Boricua tattoo on there.
So no, I was born on the island,moved to uh moved to California

(08:01):
as a at a young age, right?
So I learned how to speakEnglish in San Jose, right?
And uh, and so being a policeofficer in San Jose was a big
deal to me, right?
Because I'm like, you know,listen, I'm you know, I learned
to speak English here, man.
So if you're new here, whatever,I understand.
And uh so it was important to mefor San Jose.
But back in the in the early90s, man, it was really hard uh

(08:26):
to get into public safety,right?
And and I applied when I was 20,20 and a half years old, I
applied.
Couldn't be a cop in Californiauntil you're 21.
And I spoke Spanish fluently,right?
Like as I mentioned before,right?
And back in the back in thosedays, if you spoke Spanish, um,
how to clean record and how topulse, you were shoeing.
You were shoeing into publicsafety, whether it was fire and

(08:48):
PD, right?
So chose PD.
Um, I got hired, I I turned 21in December, uh, and I started
in February, uh, that followingFebruary, right?
So um in uh 1992 and wentthrough through that.
Um I didn't, I had uh my twoyears in college um and really

(09:09):
worked, you know, all most ofthe units, right?
I worked uh worked patrol, uh,worked on Codex Enforcement, uh
worked on the SWAT team, uh, didfugitive apprehension.
Oh uh then I got promoted tosergeant.
Okay, and uh I worked uh uh ingeneral detectives as a homicide
investigator, and then I gotpromoted to uh to uh uh I'm

(09:32):
sorry, backup.
So after SWAT uh in fugitiveapprehension, I got promoted to
sergeant.
Um and then as a sergeant Iworked in uh general detectives,
it's called the Night DetectiveBureau, and then I was a
homicide investigator.
Uh then I got promoted to uhlieutenant uh from there.

SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
And so as a sergeant you were investigating
homicides?
Yes.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (09:54):
Yes, we investigated homicides.
We didn't mention it, but itwasn't, it was a different,
different thing.
So as a sergeant, uh actually mypartner, which ended up being
the worst kept secret when Ibecame chief.
He was my he became my myexecutive assistant chief, which
is probably the department'sworst kept secret.
But um, as it comes to it,right?
So, lieutenant, so this is whenI got the uh the words that we

(10:14):
all uh hate in this line of worksometimes, but I'm so glad that
it happened.
Uh the assistant, the executiveassistant at the time uh calls
me in and goes, you know what,Eddie, we need to round you out.
Ah, right.
So I got sent to be thelieutenant over community
affairs, community servicesdivision.
Uh, which honestly, man, the thetwo and a half, I think about
two and a half years or so thatI spent there was awesome, man.

(10:38):
That was the first time, to behonest with you, that there's
more to this job than the thingswe wear around our belt.

SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
I was gonna say, how did that I I want to side rabbit
rabbit pat this one real quick.
You went from being a streetgoon, basically.
Is the the I don't want to usethe term gold vernacular.
I know.
I was a I was a cop.
You was a cop's cop.
I was a cop's cop from from whatit sounds like, and jumping in

(11:03):
the community, hearing that,would be so demoralizing.
So the fact that you came out ofthat with a different
perspective sounds like whoevermentored you into that position
did you a solid did me anabsolute solid, knowing now,
right where I'm at now, that Iwouldn't be able to hear if I
didn't do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 (11:20):
I needed to get rounded out, um, you know, and
see things from a differentperspective.
And again, recognizing that thisjob is more than what we wear
around a belt, and it's soimportant to get out there and
dealing with the programs andgetting out with our community
and making sure that uh, youknow, we put our best face
forward and make sure that canthat we're there for the
community and realize, hey,we're we're the community, the
community's us.

(11:41):
Uh so it was a great time spentthere.
So, you know, after that, uhsame executive assistant uh
calls me in his office one dayand he goes, Hey, where do you
want to go?
You want to go to homicide or doyou want to go to intelligence?
And I'd been in homicidealready, right?
And I was having and then I washaving kids, my kids were
younger, and I know what itentails, Zivian homicide, right?

(12:04):
And so, and I had done italready.
So I'm like, you know what?
Because in Intel, uh it wasspecial investigations, right?
So it was intelligence, uh,special investigations and vice,
right?
So I'm like, oh, that's prettycool.
So I did that.
So I went to Intel that workedout of the chief's office, and I
did I did that uh for a fewyears.
Uh, then I got promoted tocaptain.
That was kind of the equivalentof the commander role here.

(12:26):
Uh, and you know, as a captain,worked in patrol, worked in uh
investigations.
Uh, I had the the person side ofinvestigations, and then uh went
back to patrol.
And that was the time when thechief comes into my office one
day, one day, and he goes, Hey,I want you to be a chief here,

(12:47):
but you got to get your degree.

unknown (12:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (12:50):
So I think I was like 40 years old or so and went
back to school, right?
And waking up early and uh uh,you know, having kids, waking up
early like at 430.
As I tell people now, I go, Hey,listen, man, it was this would
have been much easier to havedone when I was 21.

SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (13:04):
Um, but uh, but got my degree later in life, right?
Which ended up being huge.
Um, but there's some thingshappened when I was a captain
rank that this is where like Idid things a little different,
right?
I'll never forget my chief callsme one day and he goes, Hey,
listen, I want to send you tothe FBI Academy.

SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
And I pause there and I go, Well, I'm coaching my
kids in little league, right?
I I can't go, right?
So he tries to talk me into it,but I say, I can't go.
Um, and so later on that year,he asks me again, um, want to
send you to the FBI Academy.
I know you couldn't go lasttime, but this time I'm coaching
my kids in pop warner football.

(13:44):
And I go, I can't go.
Yeah.
I I'm I'm I'm not I'm not doingthat, right?
And I say this because this isno fault for anybody that's gone
to the FBI Academy for personalgrowth and things of that
nature, right?
Um, but I don't have a goldbrick on my desk.
Um, I've never gone to the FBIAcademy, and God bless the
people that do, um, just wasn'tthe right time for me.

(14:05):
And but back in those days, andI don't know how it is now,
because we can do this later,because I really can give three
shits if someone goes to an FBIacademy or not, when I promote
them, I that's not what I'mlooking for.
We can get into that.
Because that's not what happenedto me, right?
But um, but it's interestingbecause I talk about this all
the time, and I go, like, that'susually a career ender when you

(14:27):
say no twice to go to the FBIAcademy.
And I'm like, you know what?
I thought to myself, man, if Iif my career ends at the San
Jose Police Department as acaptain, man, that's been a
great career, and I'm good withit.

SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
But you know, obviously you couldn't sleep at
night.
You you took care of yourfamily.

SPEAKER_02 (14:40):
Oh, yeah.
I mean, my kids, I mean, Ilisten, coaching my kids in in
Little League and in Pop Warner,I coached them in everything
until they got into high schoolwas one of the best things ever,
right?
So I tell people all the time, Igo, you know, I don't know
exactly what the FBI Academywould have taught me to have
been a better cop.
Um, you know, but man, Iremember every home run.
Yeah.

(15:00):
And I remember every touchdown.
And I would have done, I wouldhave made the same decision
again, uh, even now.
So didn't go, but obviously somepeople had faith in me, um,
continued rising up through theranks, um, ended up uh getting
promoted to deputy chief, uh,then assistant chief.
Um, and as a deputy chief, Ioversaw investigations again.

(15:21):
Uh, then I did admin, which I100% needed.
Um, I became the executiveassistant.
I'm glad you liked it.
Well, but but listen, I'll tellyou what, I had to learn.
I mean, I had to get into that.
I mean, particularly as I lookback now, at least little, you
gotta meet up, you gotta be inthis job a mile wide and an inch
deep, right?
But you gotta know a little bitabout everything.

(15:42):
Right.
And had I not had thatexperience, there's no way I
would have been, right?
And so, you know, was executiveassistant chief, I think, in
2012.
Um, I became the number two inSan Jose in 2012, and then
ultimately the chief therestarting in 2016, right?
And so I got there in a paththat quite frankly, most chiefs

(16:04):
don't get there that way, right?
You you get your degrees andyour doctorates and you're
you're in you're in everythingbut you're in everything either
but patrol or in administrationroles.
That's not me.
That's not how I got there.
So, you know, when I've gonearound the country and talked to
prospective chiefs and things ofthat nature, I'm like, man,

(16:24):
there's there's more than oneway to do it.
Uh, but ultimately there'speople that believed in me,
right?
There's people that opened thedoor for me and I owe them
everything.
And so um, that's how I got, um,at least at the chiefs level.
Um, and it wasn't generally theusual path, I think, that most
have taken.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
So full disc first, there's uh there's one caveat
that I was supposed to tell youabout that I forgot at the
beginning.
I don't normally have thisridiculous mustache, just so you
know.
Normally full bearded out.
Was it for Halloween?
Uh I have a military ceremonythat I have to go to at the end
of this week.
Okay.
So um, I shaved my beard and Ijust thought of how ridiculous I

(17:02):
probably look right now withthis stupid mustache.
So I want to make sure I gotthat caveat.
So when oh, when when our peopleare watching this, I at least
they know now why I have thiscreepy mustache.
Um, I just had to get that outthere.
Uh second thing, you know, likeanybody, any cop would do, I
started reaching out to peoplethat you'd been over.

(17:24):
And one rare thing that I willtell you that I found out was
nobody either from the streetlevels that I was friends with
or a little higher up, um,nobody had anything bad to say.
So that that's a good like me asa cop, like that's a good sign.
If you've if you've either gotnothing to say or really good
things, that's all I care for.

(17:46):
Like that's what I want.
But if everybody's like, oh mygod, he was horrible.
But the most people that Italked to, they honestly said he
never affected me.
Like that's a good thing.
So I wasn't really worried.
So when I got to do thisinterview, I was like, cool,
because because of thereputation you got coming in
here, um, I knew you'd be opento some of these questions.
So one of the questions throughwhat you just told me that I

(18:07):
really want to know, because Ireally got the vibe that you're
a cops cop.
You made it a different way.
I didn't know that.
What was the vibe like for acops cop to step into that ivory
tower area, and then you've gota historically speaking, most
ivory towers they don't thinklike cops cops.
They think of liability, bottomline, stuff like that all the

(18:31):
time.
What was it like for you to stepinto that role?

SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Well, I'll say, I mean, to the point you made,
liability, bottom line, this andthat and the other.
That all plays a part in it.
I'd be lying if it didn't.
The part I guess the part that Ibring that I hope other people
bring too is that you also haveto include that cop part in all
that.
So I guess I just like take thejob, man.
Like if I was sitting in theback room and the and what would

(18:55):
I want the chief to say?
Right?
Like what would I what would Iwant the support to be?
Um, you know, uh, you know,good, bad, or indifferent, man.
Like I, you know, I've knockeddown doors, I've interviewed
homicide suspects that havekilled children from me to you.
I understand that life.
Um I've run search warrants andI've been on perimeters and I

(19:19):
remember that stuff, right?
And it was, I mean, i it's partof who I am, right?
And so it just plays animportant role in how you lead,
but your people gotta see you asone of them.
Yeah, right.
That's the biggest thing, Ithink.
I think and I've worked forChiefs that yeah, that guy's not
like me.

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Yeah.
Um, and your people have to seeyou as one of them.
Um, you know, as you might know,and this is part of it, doing
this with you, but I, you know,Fridays are my Lincoln on
leadership Fridays, right?
Where, you know, I'll do adminduring the day, and like in the
afternoons, I'm gonna do thingslike this or visit units, or um,
you know, like last week I rodeout with the horses.
Oh, even when we did the mountedunit.

(19:59):
I did mounted.
That's fun, ain't it?
Mounted last week.
Yeah, I love riding the horses,and I'm looking forward to the
stock show when I'm in thatparade and I had to start
getting ready for it, right?

SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
Yeah, a cowboy hat, right?
Absolutely.
I know Dallas for a while, theyweren't wearing cowboy hats.
Well, Dallas with the cowboyhats are trying to be like us.
Let's just let's just let's justface it.
They've always been trying to belike us, even when you were
there, no offense.

SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
But uh Well, listen, I will say I will say this, it's
a good competition we have, butI'll say this, and I say this
all the time the only reason Iam here sitting next to you um
is because of the men and womenof the Dallas Police Department
uh for the amazing work theydid.
So it's a friendly competition.
Yeah, it is.
I love those people.

SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
I love those men and I would get no respect back at
work if I didn't talk a littlebit.
No, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 (20:37):
I completely get it, but I've always will be true
that we'll have fun with it.
But they know and I've said itand they're listening.
I'm all here because of them.
But um, you know, I think wejust got to remember what it was
like when we were cops, right?
And uh and understanding that.
Yeah, all that stuff plays arole, whether, you know, the
community relationships, theaccountability piece to it,
right?
The and everything that youmentioned, but never forgetting

(20:59):
where you came from.
Yeah.
Um, and and I wear it.
I mean, that's that's that'swhat I am.
The best compliment I ever got.
Uh I was doing a similarpodcast, such as this, and I'll
never forget Joe King gave methe best compliment I've ever
got in my life, as he says atthe end of the podcast, he goes,
Hey, you know what, boss?
You're an old street copmasquerading as a four-star
chief.

SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
And I'm not quite certain there's any chief in
this country that would notthink that that's the best
compliment that they could everget.
Um, but it truly is the bestcompliment I ever got.
Um, and uh, and so that's what Ikind of bring to it.
Um you know, no one, you know, Ilike to I like to think, listen,
there's two things, and twothings can be true.
Um no one cares about theircommunity more than I do, um,

(21:42):
but no one wants to take acriminal to jail more than I do
either.
And those two turn those twothings aren't mutually
exclusive.
Um and again, I I I holdofficers accountable, but you'll
also I love my officers.
And um, you know, and and boththings can be true, right?
Those aren't mutually exclusiveeither.
And so that's what I what I liketo think I bring.

SPEAKER_00 (22:03):
It's a breath of fresh air for a guy like me, for
for other cops that I work withto hear stuff like that.
Because traditionally in in theUS, we only hear that from
sheriffs because sheriffs areelected.
So you're in a position thatisn't elected.
And it it's more risky for you.
Even to talk this way is morerisky for you.
So respect for that.

(22:24):
Um I like that a lot.
Uh speaks volumes to yourcharacter.

SPEAKER_02 (22:27):
And well, but I but again, I mean, I don't know
what's you know, it's like whenyou say that.
That's that's what's wrong.
Yes, I'm that's what's right.
There's the choir, brother.
There's not there's not aneighborhood, and I say this all
the time.
You know, there's not aneighborhood, and I'm not an in
the I'm not an office guy.
I spend less time in my officethan anything because I want to

(22:48):
be out there, whether it'stalking to the troops or going
to the community and hearingfrom the community.
And I've not been in onecommunity meeting that's
impacted by crime, uh,regardless of language spoken,
racial makeup, or economicstatus, that I have ever heard
the words we want to see less ofyou on our streets.

SPEAKER_01 (23:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
I I've never.
So I say that confidently and Ifeel I can speak that way
because that's I've I've alwaysheard, yes, our community wants
is going to hold us accountable.
We need to hold ourselvesaccountable.
There's no question about it.
But they don't want us to goaway and they want to feel safe
and they want the criminalelement taken off the street,
but we have to do it in theright way.

SPEAKER_01 (23:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:24):
There's nothing like again, that those terms are not
mutually exclusive.
Uh, and I think the rank andfile, it resonates with rank and
file, but it resonates with thecommunity in the other way as
well, where we're gonna do ourjobs, we're gonna do it right.

SPEAKER_01 (23:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Um, so again, I but I've been, I've done it, and
I've seen it and I've heard it.
Um, and so, and so that's why Ifeel I think more of us need to
speak out just about the fact,like, hey, listen, yes, we need
to take care of our community.
We need to hold ourselvesaccountable.
There's no question, we have todo everything the right way,
right?
We have to treat our communitywith respect, we have to do
things procedurally just, but wealso have to take the criminal

(24:00):
element off the street.
We have to enforce the law, wehave to be out there invisible,
we have to make sure ourcommunities just don't see us in
a moment of crisis.
Um, we have to do all thosethings, but we have to do our
jobs.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
Yep.
Agreed.
Okay, so let's go back.
You you did homicide, you did abunch of stuff.
One of the things I'm veryinterested in is your fugitive
apprehension stuff.
That's always been a dream ofsomething of mine.
I just I never got it, never gotto do it.
Uh and I love I love all theguys that have ever been a part
of our fugitive teams that I'veworked with.
They've just to me, that wascream of the crop, guys.

(24:36):
Like they're out there dealingwith the most dangerous of
dangers all day long.
And their professionalism, theirability to de-conflict, just
seeing how they operate and yousee cars and the way that they
find targets and stuff likethat.
Like, to me, that that that isthe the fun side of policing.
I always looked at it like thatway.
So, in your background, whatwhat was your top two uh

(25:00):
focuses?
Was was fugitive one of those?
Was I just trying to figure outwhat your top two specialties
were?
Um can you pull that micslightly?
Just push it away this way.
Yeah, there you go.
So it's just in front of you.

SPEAKER_02 (25:13):
Um God, there's so many things, so many good times
that we had.
I mean, honestly, I'm not justsaying this, but I honestly the
time in community affairs wasgreat.
But I, you know, from a from acop's perspective, from a
catching the crook perspective,yeah, fugitive apprehension was
very satisfying.
There's no question about it.
So was so was homicide.

SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Okay.
So in the fugitive side ofthings, um, one, what was your
training?
What would it what did it taketo get into that?
In what what year are wetalking?
Uh, we're talking late 90s.
Okay, so late 90s, give a littleperspective, what era we're
talking about.
So body cams.
I'm old.
Well, body cams weren't a thing.
Um, when you talk to some ofthese patrol guys, you just like

(25:51):
you you sit there and you thinkof how you policed, and you're
like, you don't know a time thata body cam didn't exist, you
don't know a time a drone didn'texist, and you don't know a time
a uh a real-time crime centerdidn't exist.
Right, right, right.
That's a totally different styleof policing when I first
started.
Yes.
And for you, especially.
Uh so in Fugitive, what was thetraining like in the late 90s to

(26:12):
get into that?

SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
Well, it was interesting because we did
fugitive out of SWAT, right?
So it was like a collateralassignment.

SPEAKER_00 (26:18):
So we would Oh, that's what you meant when you
said we thought you did SWAT andFugitive.

SPEAKER_02 (26:22):
No, we got into fusion apprehension out of out
of SWAT, right?
So we had two, we had we didSWAT in our collateral
assignment when we weren'tgetting call-outs and serving
warrants, was what we would doon a day-to-day basis would be
would be fusive apprehension.

SPEAKER_00 (26:35):
So you did both fun things.

SPEAKER_02 (26:36):
Yeah, no, so we had the the tactical training from
the SWAT perspective.
And then honestly, my sergeantuh at the time, under retiring
as the captain, and I'll givehim credit, his name, Jeff
Smith, right?
And uh he came up with the ideathat he wanted us to start doing
this on our uh when we weren'tdoing the stuff.
So we turned into futureapprehension.
And so we started doing allsorts of training.

(26:56):
Um, you know, we had our teamleaders went down to LAPD uh and
saw what SIS did down there froman undercover capacity and
things of that nature.
Uh we started doing car jam.
We we started doing trainingwith car, we called them car
jams back uh back in the late90s.
Um, and really going through thebureaus and really getting what

(27:17):
who was the worst of the worstin the city.
And we would start working withthem, right?
And uh and start and startapprehending them.
And so uh we would do, you know,tails, train tail training,
right?
We put an academy together uhthat went through a whole you
know week of just uh, you know,of uh of you know, you know, uh

(27:37):
surveillance and things of thatnature.
Um, but the tactical side wasalways there, right?
So it was kind of cool.
You always got the SWATtraining.
It was kind of cool where, youknow, regardless who we were
going after, we're a SWAT team.
So like we have the training to,okay, he's in the house.
All right, let's go.
I mean, so it was kind of both.
We wouldn't, we were in plainclothes, but we'd throw in our
stuff after.
Um, and so man, it was just a itwas, but I'll tell you what, uh

(28:02):
probably the busiest I've everbeen in my life, right?
Because unfortunately,fortunately or not, right?
You know, we can have a latenight um and we start, let's say
we finish off relatively early,catching the first guy or
something, and you know, it waswe we get a line on a guy at
seven, right?
Well, once you start, you can'tyou don't stop.
Yeah, right.

(28:22):
So that's gonna be that was athat'd be a long, long, long
night, right?
So uh, but yeah, you know, hadwe had our jugs in the back of
the car, we have Gatoradebottle.
That's my favorite.

SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
Well, we probably it was yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (28:35):
We had we had this, we were, we were ready to go,
right?
And so that was that was a lotof fun.
I mean, you know, from thetraining that we go in through
now, so different back thenbecause we started from scratch,
right?
It was an idea that my sergeanthad at the time.
He's like, I think we should dothis.
And so that's what we starteddoing.

SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
Dang, okay, and so I like the innovation.
That's it, because that's likehow the real-time crime center.
Like we kind of talked offlineabout that.
We one of the ways that we gotkicked off with a real-time
crime center before we knew whatwe had was an injured zero
tolerance guy, uh Dalton Webb.
He was injured, and he's like, Istill want to be useful to my
team.
So he's a radio and a laptop,and he was gathering intel for

(29:12):
his team.
You know, it's a 10-person teamthat's down to nine, but they're
more productive with him behindthe scenes doing what we call
now real-time crime centerbehind the scenes.
So it seems like the same thingwith you guys.
A SWAT team is holy cow, youjust made that unit.
Because who knows how many I Idon't know, San Jose.
Right.
I don't I don't know how oftencall-outs were happening in San

(29:33):
Jose.

SPEAKER_02 (29:34):
They didn't, they didn't happen all the time,
right?
And so what originally what inthat unit was called merge.
Um, and it was one of thosethings, again, that I don't
necessarily I don't know whythey just didn't call it SWAT.
Now, you know, to to be inmerge, to have been in merge is
is now that's that's the name.
So we're very proud of thatname.
But it's one of those thingswhere you sit back and mobile

(29:55):
emergency response group andequipment.
Because I am assuming at somepoint someone Thought SWAT was
too scary.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (30:02):
Maybe you know, we know it's California.

SPEAKER_02 (30:06):
We know that those things happen.
You're gonna get a lot of shitfor that.
I've gotten a lot of shit forit.
We didn't get into that.
I mean, when I first got toDallas, they were saying don't
California are DPD.
That was a rallying cry when Igot there.
But um uh but uh but it was it'scalled merge, right?
And that's the SWAT team.
And uh and so originally whatthey would do, what we would do
is we would be in we would goout in unmarked cars and we

(30:29):
would go throughout the cityjust being self-initiating
things, right?
But then the sergeant goes,listen, this isn't productive,
right?
If why don't we do somethingthat's not being done, right?
The bureau has a myriad ofwarrants after, and there's
really no one going after them,right?
So why not us start doingsomething that's more effective?

(30:50):
Yeah.
And you know how it is at first,we're like, I don't want to do
that, right?
Because it's a lot more fun tojust go out throughout the city
and do whatever I want.
And so my sergeant, I'llremember Jeff going, yeah, I
know, I get that's a lot morefun, but it's not as efficient.
So this is not necessarily abouthaving fun.
Let's have fun doing somethingthat actually matters.

SPEAKER_01 (31:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (31:08):
Um, and so we looking back, you know, we went,
I don't say we were kicking andscreaming that this is a new
mission, but when you get reinedin, yeah, you don't get to do
whatever you want.
Yeah, this is much moreefficient, but I we we really
took pride in that.

SPEAKER_00 (31:21):
And cops don't like change, so we know that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:23):
Well, we they don't like two things.
We don't like two things copchange and the way things are.
Those are the those are the twothings that we don't like,
right?
We don't like change and the waythings are, right?

SPEAKER_00 (31:33):
We know that we'll like to complain about it.
We do, but the moment you startchanging stuff to fix that
problem, then we're like, thatain't gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 (31:39):
Yeah, that's not gonna work.
That'll never work.
No, so uh anyway.
So that was a that was a greattime.
And now actually, born out ofthat, San Jose then actually
created their own fugitive unit.

SPEAKER_00 (31:50):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (31:51):
So separate from SWAT.
Okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 (31:54):
Did it did it create the need?
You showed it.

SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
It created Yes, it created a need.
So they actually born out ofthat was a a unit that
specifically became that, and wewere the originators of it.
So it's pretty cool that uh thatwe we started that, right?
And uh, it was fun being part ofthat.
Great group of guys.
Um, man, the camaraderie uh wasawesome.

SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
And and what's cool to see something like that from
um kind of a bigger picturepolice perspective is that
wasn't an idea born out of achief.
That was an idea born out of theguys out there doing it, and
then having a chief that getsbehind it and says, You're
right, it's working, keep doingit, like having that support.

SPEAKER_02 (32:33):
Exactly right.
Um, and I always say this, youknow, the sergeant position is
the most important position inthe police department.

SPEAKER_00 (32:37):
Right jumping ahead of me because I was gonna get to
that later on.

SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Well, I've talked to the truth.
I mean, I don't, I wear fourstars.
My position isn't the mostimportant.
The chief the sergeant'sposition is, and this was a
sergeant that had this idea thatnow his legacy is that it was so
important, it shows so muchvalue that it's in permanently
ingrained, right?
Yep.
Um, or it got ingrained.
Um, and so yeah, I mean, and asa chief now, that's when you get

(33:04):
most excited, man.
When ideas come from the bottomup, yeah, that's that's the best
place to be, right?

SPEAKER_00 (33:09):
And that was just a as a great example.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Man, that's fun.
Okay, so that was your firstfave.
What was your second favorite?
Was it the community stuff?
Well, community was in there,right?

SPEAKER_02 (33:19):
But when you're talking about putting the
community stuff, really was theglue that put me all together.
Okay.
That's what I'll say.
Shaped you.
Yeah.
Um, but homicide.

SPEAKER_00 (33:28):
Homicide.

SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
You know, um, you know, I wasn't there as long as
most guys, you know, and galsare in now forever.
We had a rotation policy in SanJose, so you couldn't be in
there too that long anywhere.
Really?

SPEAKER_00 (33:39):
How long do you think?

SPEAKER_02 (33:41):
I believe at the time it was uh five years.

SPEAKER_00 (33:43):
Okay.
Because I think that's theminimum time you should give.

SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
I I don't disagree.
I don't disagree.
I I don't know, I I I I don'tagree that you should have just
been in there that long.
Or in a lot of units, right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
That one that's one that in particular, it j man,
when you talk to some of theseseasoned homicide guys and you
sit back and you're like, thiswould take me a lifetime to get
to that level.
100%.
And and I think at five years inhomicide, unless you're just
really squared away, I'm notgonna say I was that's why I
never went to homicide.
It I it probably interests everyperson that ever becomes a

(34:17):
detective because it's the creamof the crop when it comes to
that.
Uh but I think if you are a trueif you're truly looking out for
the community for the victims,you got to be true to yourself.
Like I knew I was gonna promoteand I knew that I couldn't give
them the time that they deserve.
So I that's why I never went forit.

SPEAKER_02 (34:35):
So I'm just curious, like having a time limit, like
how's your view on that nowversus when you Oh no, I don't I
if I no, I would I I don't thinkfive years was enough.
And I'll be honest with you, canlook at it every unit, right?
I mean, and and again, I mean,so uh so but yeah, but the the
the cases that were worked um inthe interviews that I had to do,

(34:56):
um, that you know I stillremember to this day, uh, you
know, those those still sitright.
And it was very it wasfulfilling.
I mean, it's uh obviously ahorrible situation that you're
there um having to do what youhave to do.
Uh, but to get, you know, to beable to make a case um and to
talk to people, to have themtalk to you, right?

(35:18):
Um, that's pretty awesome.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (35:19):
Especially when they're free to go.
Like if you can get somebody totalk to you and they're free to
go, like that's a technique Ilearned from homicide, guys.
I'm like, what do you meanthey're free to go?
Like you suspect this person ofpossibly committing a homicide
and they and you're gonna letthem go?
And they're like, Yeah, we'rehaving a consensual encounter
right now.
It's like, I don't understand.
I don't get that technique.

(35:40):
I didn't get it.
So, you know, you start watchinghow they do things and you're
like, oh, you start putting itall together.
Like, wow, okay, that's reallysmart.
That's why you do this job and Idon't.
Now, for you, that was this inthe 90s again?

SPEAKER_02 (35:50):
This was, let's see, we're talking at this point, no,
this is in the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_00 (35:55):
What was the training like for that?
Was the read technique like acommon practice?
Were they making you guys gothrough certain interviews?

SPEAKER_02 (36:01):
No, they didn't force you to do that.
There were interview andinterrogation classes that you
would go to.
Okay.
Um, you know, uh to get readyfor it.
And generally speaking, youdidn't, you had to have some
other things, right?
So as an example, merge, havingbeen in merge, um was a was a
was a unit that was highly,highly thought of.
Okay.
Um you had the prestige behind.

(36:23):
You had a little look.
So you had some seasoning to todo that.
Um, and you know, you're alreadytalking to people, you're
already interviewing people,you're having some techniques
and understanding things.
And then yeah, there's classesthat you can go to with regards
to it.
But you know, honestly, um uh,you know, once you're there, I
mean, and that's the theexpectation is the people that

(36:45):
were getting into those unitshave had some experience doing
something, right?
And I know that's anotheropportunity though.
I got a shot.
Listen, I'm not gonna lie to youand tell you there were some
people when I got into homicidethat goes, How did you got to
homicide and you weren't aninvestigator before?
But I had there was a lieutenantthat brought me to homicide by
the name of Glenn McCordy, who'spassed he passed away.
That was one of the best cops inthat San Jose had.

(37:08):
And he had been in merge beforeas well.
And so he gave me a chance.
And so, like I've just I'vebeen, and so I made the most of
my chances, right?
And so um gave me anopportunity, and again, it was a
very fulfilling time there.

SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Yeah, I can tell you in the training that I've had
with interrogation stuff, andthat was one of my favorite
things in my career that Ididn't expect was interrogating
and interviewing.
My successor, I would I willtell you to this day, unless
they shut me down with askingfor a lawyer immediately, I
would at least get om I wasbatting a thousand.
I would at least get some sortof omission to put my cases

(37:42):
together.
And out of all the training thatI got, the streets are what and
being able to talk to people,having the social skills to talk
to people, that's what I reliedon.
It had nothing to do a lot ofthe time with the with the quote
unquote, you know, professionaltraining with read technique and
all that stuff.
I would take maybe a littlepiece of those and use them in

(38:04):
my own tool belt, but for themost part, it was just talking
to people.
And just like you said, like twoof the best people I've ever
watched work, um Tom Geerlingand uh Matt McMeans, they're
people that uh you'll you'llmight get to know.
Um their ability to getconfessions or omission or any
of that, watching those guyswork without any professional

(38:27):
training as far as interrogationgoes inspired me.
I'm like, oh my god, okay.
So I I don't need to rely onthat stuff.
I can still be myself and behighly successful in what I'm
doing.
Just kind of the point of whatyou're saying is yeah, you may
not have gone through the normalchannels, but if it works, it
works.
And if somebody can recognizewhat you're doing is being

(38:48):
successful, like that, that'swhat it takes.
That's why having a sergeant isso key that pays attention to
what's going on, right?
But having the confidence inyour ability.
So that's that's good to hear.
Uh did you enjoy theinterrogation side of things?

SPEAKER_02 (39:00):
Yeah, no, I very much so.
Yeah, it's um I really enjoyedit.
I mean, and again, you know, ifyou look at the amazing work
that our homicide unit does, Imean, we've got to have like
almost a hundred straight, likeyeah, 90% plus or what have you.
I mean, they're amazing.

SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (39:13):
Um, and uh particularly with the all the
hoops that you have to jumpthrough, you know, on different
things now.
Um, you know, I it it'sfascinating.
Um, I'm so proud of them.
I mean, but I but I, you know, II know how hard they work,
right?
I know what they have to do.
Um, and so I'm just it's it'sit's it's it's fantastic what

(39:33):
what our guys are doing and galsare doing.

SPEAKER_00 (39:35):
Agreed.
Okay.
So we've we've hit on two twohighlights of your career that
that you were really into.
And I I like bringing that upbecause I think it helps people
see when they see the glint inyour eye when you start talking
about it, because they can, youknow, cops are bullshit
detectives.
Like just me talking, you got mepumped up talking about it.
That's like I want to get in theinterrogation side again because

(39:55):
I had fun doing that as a cop.
And uh seeing seeing you dothat, our guys are gonna they're
gonna resonate with that a lot,I think.
So I want to move into you goingfrom doing the fun stuff,
jumping all the way up to Chief.
Um now you did chief jobs in SanJose, San Jose, Dallas, Dallas,
and now here.

(40:16):
Yes.
Um culturally speaking, becausewe touched on it.
You're coming from California.
I have never lived inCalifornia, I can only assume,
and that's where you probablygot the whole feedback and don't
California or Texas and all thatstuff.
Yeah, I've heard that a fewtimes.
Yes, yes, yes.
So coming in and being probablyone of the only people that can

(40:37):
talk from experience, theculture of policing from
California to Dallas to FortWorth, what are you seeing huge
differences?
Well, not with the men andwomen.
So policing state.

SPEAKER_02 (40:48):
So policing policing's policing, right?
And I'll say to the men andwomen of the San Jose Police
Department, the only reason Igot a chance is Dallas was
because of them.
Wasn't because of me, it wasbecause of them.
Um, and the policing cops arecops, man.
Um, they want they want to feelsupported, they want to be able
to do their jobs, they'relooking at you to put them in
the best positions to succeed,right?
And so that wasn't necessarilyit.

(41:10):
It was, I always talk about thebiggest difference is support.
Um, you know, I I've said thisbefore, you know, there's a lot
of people that support lawenforcement in California.
Uh, but at the time where I wasthere and making decisions to
leave, there were people thatwould support law enforcement
that are always afraid ofstanding up and saying they
supported law enforcement forfear of some tart some sort of
retaliation or something.
Um, getting to Texas, completelydifferent.

(41:32):
Um, the support that we gethere, and I know when you're all
from here, you think this is theway it is everywhere.
Um, it is not.
It's not.

SPEAKER_00 (41:40):
I came from Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 (41:41):
Okay, it's not, right?
And I tell this as a community,and particularly here in Fort
Worth, we're even more, evenmore unique.
Because I think we're in themost supportive state in the
country when it comes to publicsafety.
And I truly believe that we'rein the most supportive city, in
the most supportive state, majorcity in the most supportive
state in the state of Texas.
And uh so support is thebiggest, the biggest difference,

(42:02):
right?
Um, you know, I, you know, wedid our recruiting video where
you have our city manager andour mayor saying they support
the blue and back the blue.
I mean, honestly, you take astep back.
I don't, you don't see that in alot of places.
And they're not doing it becausethey're being forced to.
They truly, really believe inwhat they're saying.
So it really comes back to thebiggest differences have been is

(42:23):
the support.
You know, I had an opportunitywhen I was in Dallas.
Uh, one of my officers wasgetting the uh Star Texas Award.
And Governor Abbott uh gave anamazing speech.
You know, I've had theopportunity to meet the governor
a few times, but GovernorAbbott, the first that was one
of the first times I had heardGovernor Abbott.
So he gives the amazing speechof his support for law
enforcement, right?
And as my officers walking onstage to get the award, I was

(42:44):
able to say hi to the governor,right?
And so I said, Governor, youknow, thank you for those words.
I have never heard a governor uhspeak like that to law
enforcement, so thank you.
So he looks at me and he goes,Where are you from?
And that's the point when I tellthis story that everyone starts
laughing.
Yeah.
And I go, well, sir, I'm fromCalifornia.

(43:05):
And he goes, Yeah, we're alittle different here.

SPEAKER_01 (43:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:08):
And I'm like, Yes, yes, sir, we are very, very
different here.
But little things, right?
I get to Texas and probably inthe time I was a chief in San
Jose, and I was a chief in SanJose for for five almost five
years, right?
I didn't get invited one time tocome to the to the Capitol to
speak on major law enforcementissues, right?
They would make decisionswithout really bringing major

(43:30):
chiefs in.
And I got, and I when I got toTexas, as I sit here today, um,
I can't even count how manytimes I've been invited to
Austin to speak on something ortestify on something because
they care.
Now, it may not turn out the waywe want, but the mere fact to
ask us and invite us in it'ssomething that also I don't
think happens everywhere, right?

(43:51):
Um so uh, you know, in anyevent, um that's that at least
those are my experiences.
Okay.
And so I I would just say thebiggest difference is support.

SPEAKER_00 (44:01):
Okay.
Um, right, I agree with you.
I can't um I grew up in Flint,Michigan.
Okay.
I know you're not aware of that,but uh cops are not very well
liked up there.
Um police support is very rare.
Um and when I separated fromactive duty uh military, I
became a cop up in Michigan,Saginaw, Michigan.
And it was the same reason I gotout.

(44:21):
There just was no support.
You know, you're asking for amillage, they get denied.
There's just all this differentstuff that uh not seeing the
support.
And I applied all over thenation to places that I thought
were to be really good.
I just happened to get hireddown here first.
It was the one the fastest routeto get out of that.
And that has been one of thebiggest surprises to me as well.

(44:44):
You knew it was here, but untilyou feel it and see it.
When you sit down at arestaurant and all of a sudden
somebody, you know, you go topay and it's already been paid
for, you don't even know whopaid for it.
Like I never experienced that upthere.
Nothing like that.
So seeing that and hearing it uhdown here firsthand, exactly
what you're saying.
So I think you and I coming fromoutside perspectives really help

(45:07):
with the officers that I callpurists.
They only know this.
Like you don't know how good youhave it.

SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
I see that.
I that's it's almost cliche.

SPEAKER_00 (45:14):
I see that you don't know how good you have it.
You know, I and I I the militaryreally saved my life um in a way
where I Flint for me was likethe matrix.
I didn't know I was in it untilI escaped it.
And then you see successfulcities and you know, things
booming and all that stuff.
Texas is where base camp is orboot camp is at.

(45:36):
So coming down to Texas andseeing everything growing and
all of that, I was I neverexperienced that of a flint.
Everything had always beenclosing, continuous closing.
GM shops, AC, um for all thestuff always constantly closing.
So when I come down here and Isee that, that's one of the
things I'm like, dude, shut up.
You're complaining that yougotta go to training.
You're complaining abouttraining.

(45:57):
You know what I trained in?
I was in a dang abandonedbuilding.
It was condemned building.
If we got lucky, I got so muchtraining thrown at me here.
I like that's such a goodproblem to have.
And so giving perspective,outside perspective like that.
So I was just curious, uh,coming from California, if

(46:17):
you've seen that type ofdifference, and since you s have
that community side to you,seeing that how well has the
community reached out to youjust in the short time?
Because how long have you beendown here?

SPEAKER_02 (46:29):
I think we're I think we just passed a month, a
month, a little bit over amonth.

SPEAKER_00 (46:32):
Okay, so in that, like what's that community
outreach been like?
Oh, it's been nonstop uh andpositive.

SPEAKER_02 (46:38):
Uh, you know, uh, you know, so going out to the
community, knowing thecommunity, going out to
neighborhoods, speaking atevents.
Um, as a matter of fact, I I'mspeaking at an event tomorrow
morning, uh, and then I'm goingto speak at uh at a church
service on Sunday morning.
Um again, like I'm you know, I'mout there and you have to be.
Um and so it's been great.
Um, you know, the and this iswhy I I can truly tell you our

(47:00):
communities don't want us to goaway.
I don't care what the outsidenoise is.
Like they want us to do our jobsright, but they want us there.
Yeah.
Um and you wouldn't know thatunless you're out there, right?
And so it's been great, and it'san incredibly important part of
the job.
Um, and I enjoy doing it.

SPEAKER_00 (47:16):
That's good because as a as a as a street level cop,
one of the things that alwaysconcerns me is you'll get a loud
minority.
And if you have a if you have achief that isn't getting out
there and hearing what the realvoices are, how do you
distinguish between is this areal problem?

(47:37):
Is this like is this outsidepressure a real problem, or is
this just a loud minority?
I'm just curious how you gothrough that process as a chief.

SPEAKER_02 (47:43):
Well, first and foremost, we are oftentimes our
own worst enemy.
Oh okay.
Uh we do we've done some someterrible things that we have to
own up for.
Yeah.
First, first things first.
Um, and so you really have tomake sure that you, you know,
when things are occurring, doingyour research to figure things
out, right?
As to what the temperature is.
Uh, but certainly um, you know,cops hearing that is important

(48:07):
because, you know, they're notthey're not insulated from the
media any other way than anyoneelse.
And when you're going call tocall to call, you may not
understand, man, they love you.
I have a little bit more timewhen I go out into the
community.
I'll never forget going intoneighborhoods.
And I did this when I was inDallas.
I mean, I went to a neighborhooduh in South Central in Dallas.
And whether I was talking to uha Spanish-speaking uh ice cream

(48:30):
vendor or an African-Americanbeauty salon owner, uh, both of
them.
As I'm walking out, I'll neverforget walking out of the beauty
salon one day after I wasmeeting with the business owner.
And she goes, Chief, don'tforget about us down here.
Right.
And, you know, this comes at atime, right, when I was getting
media questions like, Chief, howare you going to help mend

(48:50):
community police relationshipsand the distrust and this and
that and the other?
And I said, Man, you guys aremaking a really big issue with
this, um, which rightly so, attimes we deserve it.
But come to community meetingswith me and you'll hear my
communities let me have it ifI'm not providing them police
resources.
And in some cases, accuse thedepartment of putting police
resources in other more affluentareas instead of areas of need.

(49:14):
Um, and as not a single onetakes me up on it.
Right.
But when I'm able to come back,I remember telling that story
about the don't forget about usdown here, chief, to my command
staff at one of our ComStatmeetings because I felt it's
important to go, your communityloves you.
All right.
I know you may not all have thetime to go out and see that.
And for your patrol officersthat are going call to call to

(49:34):
call, there's some, there's,there's, they need to know that
that that they love you.
They need to know that they wantyou here.
And you need to hear that,right?
Um, and so, and so that's thatthat's one of the most important
reasons why I want to get outthere.
Yeah.
So that I can honestly come andsay, your community loves you.
Like here in Fort Worth, ourcommunity loves you all.

(49:55):
They love you all.
Um, and uh again, you're gonnahave you're gonna have a portion
that you're never gonna makehappy, right?
We have to just stay, look inthe mirror and stay on a path
that we know we're doing theright thing and doing it for the
right reasons.

SPEAKER_00 (50:10):
Yeah, I agree.
Um yeah, that pumps me up thatyou're that way.
Because that's uh that that'sthat's a concern.
That is a thing that we willhear.
Um you know, officer gets shownat a bad angle, and we know it's
legit.
We've got the option to see thebody cam footage and all that
stuff, and but you got this loudminority going after it, and

(50:33):
then all of a sudden you see theofficer gets in trouble, and
we're like, dang, like well,listen, uh we need to hold
ourselves accountable when we'rewrong.

SPEAKER_02 (50:43):
Yes, absolutely all stand right up there and say
we're wrong.

SPEAKER_00 (50:46):
Because with public support comes that ownage from
guys like us.
I don't want to lose that.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
I know I have such a good thing going.
It is a gift that we don't wantto lose that.

SPEAKER_00 (50:56):
I'm not gonna let you ruin that for me.
No, so if you jack up as a copin the street, I'm with you.
I'm 100% on accountability.

SPEAKER_02 (51:02):
But and I've said this before, though, when we're
right, we're right, regardlessof what the outside noise is,
right?
So, and and again, um we knowthat we're we're this is an
imperfect profession.

SPEAKER_01 (51:13):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (51:13):
We're gonna make mistakes and we've made some
atrocious mistakes, and we knowthat we need to own up to that
and then get better.
But when we're right, also wehave to also be strong enough to
say, hey, listen, we we brokethis down or what have you, and
we have to be loud about it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:25):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (51:25):
You know, I had a reporter ask me recently why we
put the video out of the twoofficers saving that baby,
right?
This week.
And I said, um, you know, shesaid, you know, it's um, I don't
know, she's something to theeffect of it's it's really moved
people and X, Y, and Z.
And I said, uh, I said, well, Ithink with all due respect, you
answered your own question.
I said, too often we concentrateon the negative and maybe not to

(51:50):
this extent, but officers aredoing, maybe not to this extent,
we're saving literally saving ababy's life, but other amazing
things that you never hear thathappens day in, in and day out.
Um, you know, the hundreds ofthousands of contacts that we
make a year that don't end up ina force situation or that don't
end up in a negativeinteraction, we have to be loud

(52:10):
about that.
Yes.
Um celebrate means, yeah.
We equally, but when we'rewrong, we also have to have and
to make sure credibility isthere that we're able to admit
when we're wrong, yep, but also,hey, when we do right, we're
gonna put that out as well.

SPEAKER_00 (52:23):
Yes, I agree.
Um, that's that's one of themessages I've been trying to
push out is I'm gonna show thebad, but it's always going to be
educational based.
How can we improve?
How can because you alwaysdebrief no matter what it is.
So the way I look at things iscan we improve from this
encounter?
Here's where I see it beingwrong, here's where I see it
could improve, but it's alwaysabout education, trying to

(52:43):
improve things.
And that video in particular,um, shout out to Bounce, by the
way, is my boy.
Yeah.
Um, uh, it was just it wasawesome work by both of them.
Um but seeing that, you may havejust inspired a new cop.
You may have just turnedsomebody's stone heart and
softened it just a little bittowards policing and go, okay,

(53:04):
there's there's two good ones.
Like they because they don't getto see that.
Because we, like you said, whatdoes the media focus in on?
They focus in on the negativeside of things.
Why?
Because if it bleeds, it leadsand all that crap.
And I do not think we push hardenough to show the daily
victories.

SPEAKER_02 (53:19):
Those officers need so much credit.
I'll tell you one of the I knowyou don't know this, I just
found out this morning.
So uh Attorney General Bondi uhcalled through her staff and
wants to meet the officers.

SPEAKER_00 (53:34):
Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 (53:34):
Um they're going out to DC in a couple weeks to meet
the general.
To meet the attorney general.
I mean, like, I and I know theywant us all to go, I'm still
trying to see if I can make itor not.
I would love to meet theattorney general, but it's more
important for those officersthan for that sergeant.

SPEAKER_00 (53:54):
And real quick, Sheith, the people that were
involved with that, I know onewas Bounds and the other one was
Sergeant Nichols.
Sergeant Nichols, yes.
Okay, yeah, awesome.
Shout out Nichols.
Um, I never worked with himpersonally, but I did work with
Bounds.

SPEAKER_02 (54:05):
So Well, you know, you always hear that statement
like uh this doesn't uh thisdoesn't build character, it
reveals it.
Right.
Right.
That that didn't buildcharacter, that revealed it.
Yes, right?
That incident of those two thosetwo officers.
So that was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (54:21):
But the fact that the AG wants to meet them, I can
tell you, I already know Bounds.
He's gonna be like, okay, okay,I'll go.
Like he's that's not him.
He's not well no, they both.

SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
I'm glad they're out there.
Listen, at the end of the day,man, it's not every day that the
attorney general calls and wantsto meet you personally or fly
you out to DC.
So I'm so proud of those guys,and I'm happy to be able to do
that.

SPEAKER_00 (54:38):
I'm just gonna keep saying Bounds' name because this
is gonna be seen in thedepartment, and he's gonna be
like, shut up, Levine, stopsaying my name.
But no, he's a good guy.
Um, pretty cool to see that.
Um, what were we talking aboutto even get into that?
Uh oh, things that officers dodaily.
Great.
And I I think that that is acampaign that people could be
that departments should becopying all over the place.

(55:00):
Now, that was an extreme,extreme version.
Like that doesn't get to happenevery day.
But like you were saying, likethe little things.
I've watching an officer help akid fix his bike.
Um Texas, it's really popular togo put AC units in and help
people get AC units and stufflike that.
Help with groceries, all ofthose little things that we see
daily that since the media isnot going to share it, the

(55:21):
department should be sharing it.
That's just my feeling.
All departments should be.

SPEAKER_02 (55:24):
No, but I but I will say, honestly, I've had I've had
the luxury and really the goodfortune of working really well
with the media that they haveput great things out.

SPEAKER_01 (55:31):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (55:32):
Um, I know like uh Scoop, I I wanted to do
something to highlight the workHomicide did, particularly after
the week we had.
So Scoop did uh highlighthighlight the homicide unit and
what they do every single day,right?
Very cool.
Um, and so I think having thoserelationships with media um also
helpful because you can put itout, but then they they also are
looking for good stories, right?
Right.
So when we have one, we'll putnow this one was a little bit

(55:52):
different.
We like to be our own voice,right?
Which was great.
Um, but uh, but that that thatworks too.
I mean, there's definitely goodthings that the media is doing
for us with regards to puttinggood stories out.

SPEAKER_00 (56:02):
Okay.
Um now, as far as coming intothis role, one of the things
that each chief does somethingdifferent, even new sergeants do
something different.
My style, uh, I just got to theunit that I'm at maybe four
months ago, maybe maybe a littlelonger, but I'm with a bunch of
seasoned guys.

(56:23):
Like I'm not working with uh,you know, I'm not out in the
field with rookie officersanymore.
I'm dealing with dudes that havemore time on the department than
me.
So for me to come in, I'm sitback, observe, see if I need to
do anything.
What is your style?
Because you're new, you this isyour first month.
How how are you coming intothis?
Are you honestly my gun's ablazing guy?

SPEAKER_02 (56:45):
Yeah, no, kinda.
Yeah, I I'm building the planeas it flies, right?
I I'm not a I'm not a I'm not await, I don't have a hundred day
plan, right?
Like I like if if I if if Ithink we can better the
department like in recruiting onday two, then we need to do that
on day two, not wait like ahundred days to do it, right?
If there's a way to build moraleon day five, then do that.
We're not gonna wait a hundreddays to do it.

(57:06):
So, no, as things show up, um,you know, certainly we'll we'll
do that.
I mean, I don't know about gunsablazing necessarily, because I
want to, I, I do want to be uh,you know, cognizant of culture
and other things.
Uh, and again, greatrelationship uh working with
Lloyd uh and the union uh withregards to you know making big

(57:28):
decisions or what have you.
I don't want to make decisionswithout having them be a
stakeholder.
I've never operated that way.
Um and so no, as we see things,we, we, we, we try to move on
and fix them.
And it's one of, I guess one ofthe one of the dynamics of
having done this twice before inmajor cities is that, you know,
I I know that the expectationalso, right?
Yeah, from those that brought mehere isn't that this person

(57:50):
needs six months or a year toreally get his feet underneath
him because he's a brand newchief.
Right.
So, so I'm cognizant of that aswell, that that uh that it's a
balance between, you know,looking, watching, which I'm
trying to, which I'm doing, uh,and really taking action when I
think things need to change forthe better.

SPEAKER_00 (58:07):
Gotcha.
I was curious.
I was like, well, I wonder ifhe's gonna come in and just
start making waves saying, hey,I'm here, or if you're more of a
sit back, wait, or have have youdone a bunch of homework prior
to getting here?

SPEAKER_02 (58:19):
Yeah, I absolutely.
You know, I watched, listenagain, uh, I watched Fort Worth
from afar when I was in Dallas.
Right.
I mean, obviously, you know,knew what things were going on.
I was uh very good friends withNeil.
Um, we would talk all the time.
I mean, I knew a lot about thedepartment before I even, you
know, got here, right?
Yeah.
Um, even when I was working inDallas and Neil and I would have

(58:40):
conversations all the time uhabout things that are occurring,
right?
I mean, obviously everydepartment has their own
culture.
Um, you know, we'd be mindful tocertainly appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 (58:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:51):
Um, but uh, but no, absolutely.
I you know did everything Icould to get here.
At the end of the day, again,cops are cops.
Uh, and you just have to, youknow, there's only one way to
learn, and that's the way tojust get out there and
understand things, right?
Whether it be the politics orthe community.
Um, and and really that's that'show I learn.

SPEAKER_00 (59:06):
Okay.
So you've been here.
Uh you're you're a gun's ablazing guy.
What's uh what are you lookingat right now that you think
you're ready to either change oradd or anything like that big
that the officers may want toknow?

SPEAKER_02 (59:19):
Well, I would just say this.
Um, my job again is to put ourofficers in the best place for
them to use their amazingtalents and succeed, right?
We are gonna bringcriminologists in uh to look to
look at the city to come up witha criminological crime plan,
right?
That's gonna be evaluatedconstantly.
That's something big.
One of the things that we needto get better at, uh, and we
are, we're we're we're movingthe needle, is our data, uh, our

(59:41):
technology, but particularly asit pertains to data.
Um, making sure that we'redrilling down in the right
places, uh, making sure that uhfrom an accountability
perspective of the plans that wedo have, do we have the right
people in the right places atthe right times?
Um, but all that comes fromdata, right?
And being data driven, havinghaving uh uh as close to

(01:00:01):
real-time data to make real-timedecisions, not weak year old
weak data to make decisionstoday.
Uh and so looking at that, howdo we strengthen that?
Uh how do we uh refine how we'repulling data?
Um, technology, you know, again,looking at things
technologically that can makethe jobs of our cops easier.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:20):
Is there any particular tech uh technology
that you're excited aboutlooking at or anything like that
that other officers may need tolook into?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:28):
I'm really well I'm I'm excited about the technology
we're hopefully about to getwith with with uh peregrine.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:34):
Oh the peregrine stuff okay I was curious if
there's certain pieces oftechniques But no not yet.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:37):
I mean again like just thinking of different
things like man is there a wayto be able to you know you know
we we have to really startlooking um always in the
backdrop of being CGIS compliantbut we really start gotta we
have we really have to startlooking at AI and how AI is
going to kind of commingle withlaw enforcement because I know
that can make our jobs easierbut you also have to make sure

(01:00:58):
that things are CGIS compliantand proper.
But there I think it's anexciting time because of that
technology to do things thatwould that would have taken me
hours to do that could take anyeah that just simple things on
a day-to-day basis that ourpatrol officers have to do that
that we have to be able to helpthem with the tech that's there.
And so looking at thosedifferent ways um but uh but

(01:01:20):
really the biggest thing isreally from a from a crime plan
perspective from putting theofficers in the best places for
them to succeed um is is one ofthe things that we're really
looking at.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:28):
Okay interesting I like that I like I like any time
that you can take uh you're notjust chasing a a hot spot on a
map you're actually putting thedata behind this this is now
we're getting into the microthis is why I'm we will we will
be into the micro yes yes andthat is man that's that's uh
intelligence based policing notjust where I feel that this spot
is to be exactly yes exactlyyeah and you'll get that the

(01:01:51):
community you know they theythey feel sometimes oh this is a
problem area and you look you'relike well it's not really yeah I
know it feels that way buthere's what the data showing and
and when you talk to those Intelunits they'll tell you too right
they're they're tracking a lotof that stuff so that that's
exciting I I'm glad you'reexcited about that because
that's the nerd side of me I Ilike the tech side of things and

(01:02:12):
really as you can see get getinto it I've got a whole nerd
set up in here uh Star Wars iskind of my theme yeah yeah
that's my that's my thing yeahpeople think that it's red and
blue because of policing it'snot light side dark side okay oh
well all right I'm seeing thatyou got a lightsaber lightsaber
yeah wow I mean I'm into StarWars too but not to this extent

(01:02:35):
oh yeah okay yeah yeah I'm biginto it super like are you uh
are you more with the older onesor the newer ones all of them
all of them all of them all ofthem even the bad ones the bad
ones there are some bad onesthere are some bad ones don't
don't get me started um but yeahI uh that makes that makes me
pretty pumped up that you'reyou're into that um anything
anything else that littletidbits you can give us as far

(01:02:58):
as where you're you're excitedabout that you're moving towards
I don't want to get too deepinto no I'll just get general I
mean one of the things is thatyou know I I'm really looking at
ways to to give back to patrolum and so really and I've had
these conversations with Lloydwith Lloyd I don't think we're I
don't think we're there yet Itried guys he did try he's not
the first I'm sure he won't bethe last but um looking at ways

(01:03:20):
to motive not not necessarilyjust to make patrol's lives
easier yeah um listen I've beenin special I've spent more time
in special operations than I didin patrol in my career but
patrol is the number the patrolis the heart right and and I
truly believe that and I know alot of times you hear the cliche
patrol is the backbone of adepartment but seldom do chiefs
actually do anything to backthat up and so I want to change

(01:03:43):
that that to say it and do it umyou know so uh you know we're
looking at ways to integrate thecorporal rank into patrol uh
somehow thank you uh looking atthat um we're gonna get uh we're
gonna get uh the new radios inpatrol and not necessarily in
the academy uh so that officersthat are actually in the field

(01:04:04):
can have some of the newerradios that we're gonna try to
implement that sometime in thespring because there's a funding
issue uh to get at least the theFTOs.
Can we update the tracking withthose?
Because it think about this froma real-time crime perspective.
When they're out there if we cansee them on the map because a
lot of times let's say the bodycam gets knocked off or they're
separated from their patrol car,yeah I think it'd be highly

(01:04:26):
beneficial if at least theirsergeant in the field or the
real-time crime center can tracklike a Blue Force track.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:32):
If we can do that absolutely we can do that.
It's there the capability isthere.
Well if it's there I mean I Iwould prefer we do that um but
I'm trying guys I'm asking wellI'll say it from you know from
obviously I don't know how we wewould disagree with that.
I mean how amazing that would beto have that capability to do
that.
But uh but yeah anyway but atthe end of the day is looking at

(01:04:52):
patrol to to really yeah youknow when you say they're the
backbone I want them to feelthat they are right and so those
are kind of where my my my plansare obviously rebuilding the
department they're doing well onrecruiting uh understanding that
oh recruiting's going wellrecruiting's going well I
haven't heard about recruitingin a while so I was just yeah
recruiting's going well that'sgood um I think we have like 50
some odd that start um Monday uhand I think on this last that's

(01:05:17):
gonna start sometime in thefirst of the year hopefully we
get into the 70s with regards toto that academy class uh we
should be at full staffing bythe end of next year.
Um when I say full staffing Isay it in quotes um because we
need more than 1906 or whateverour authorized staffing level
is.
Yeah.
And uh and so hopefully goingfrom there as the city continues
to grow uh and recognizing thatour our specialized units that

(01:05:41):
do an amazing job, right?
And the role is to assist patroland if they're you know they're
doing exactly that they need tobe doing that then then I sleep
well making sure that theirunits uh are fully staffed is to
the extent that we can little bylittle but understanding that
the majority of these kidscoming out of the Academy and
FTO program are going to patrol.
We need to have our patrolnumbers up um and so uh that's a

(01:06:01):
that's a point of emphasis forme.
Um and so as I'm looking atthings to do generally speaking
they they revolve around reallythe morale building morale and
making sure that when I saythey're important I do things to
make them feel they'reimportant.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:12):
That's good.
Yeah they're gonna love thatbecause I think I think the
city's roughly similar size toBaltimore.
I think that's what they compareit to a lot of times.
And Baltimore's like 3500 copsor that's what they're allotted
for.
So that that makes sense if youcan jump those numbers from 1900
that would be huge well and Idon't think there's a lot of
reservation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:32):
I think everyone understands within the city that
we're gonna need to grow.
Yeah as the city grows and wecontinue to annex areas of the
city we have to start planningfor it.
Yeah right and uh you know uhyou know it's funny uh when I
heard uh mayor uh Moncrief uhformer mayor moncrieve speak at
an event um and he said when hewas mayor I think he said
something like Fort Worth waslike the 23rd largest city in

(01:06:53):
the country right and what twomayors after mayor price and now
with uh mayor Parker like nowwe're like the tenth largest
tenth or 11th largest city inthe country right and that's
just going to continue to goparticularly as we continue to
annex areas.
So as we are looking at thedevelopment of the city and as
it grows and we also have tomake sure that that development

(01:07:14):
goes with the growth of adepartment and so um I I
definitely see us having aconversation once we get to 1900
right um that we should be thereby the end of next year that
that's when we really have tostart having the conversation
okay we need to be at 23 200yeah right and as the city
continues to grow we have togrow.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:33):
Yeah all right chief so uh one other thing um use of
force always is a hot topic withpatrol and we know how it goes
confidence in your trainingconfidence in your leadership is
what makes or break uh how usesof force goes uh I I used to be
a use of force instructor umcontrol tactics instructor and
stuff stuff like that and I whatI've always noticed is that the

(01:07:57):
more confident that we are inour training the more confident
we are in our leadership havingour back the the quicker faster
we end up handling a use offorce in a proper way um but not
everything's black and whiteevery once in a while we'll get
a use of force that's like it'slike on the fence you're like I
could see it kind of going thisway I could see it kind of going

(01:08:19):
that way.
Officers are always wonderinglike how does our chief how does
the chief think through theseprocesses like what is what is
how do you start breaking downwhen you have an officer that
gets involved in a use of forcethat makes it to you that makes
it to me.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:36):
I mean you know I guess you know obviously
understanding first and foremostforce is not a choreographed
dance.
You know I remember in myacademy they tossed talked the
the the Bob Koga techniques andthings of that nature.
That's how old I go back to thetechniques they taught, right?
And when someone doesn't want togo to jail um it's not a

(01:08:58):
choreographed dance.
So I come in I guess alreadyrecognizing that right um and
you know obviously the reportwriting is incredibly important
uh ensuring you're justifyingwhat you're doing every step of
the way um also you know uh thebody cam video obviously is
incredibly important and I disseand I if it gets to me I would

(01:09:20):
dissect that right um you knowthe attitudes and things of that
nature of both individuals rightI use the Graham versus Connor
um I mean I'm a Graham versusConnor guy I mean that is what
we're judged by in the law ofthe land right um and and so I
really use use that technique umalso you know what why why what
what was the initial contact asto what occurred right um and so

(01:09:44):
all those things are goingthrough my head but literally
breaking down the body cam andagain you know that body cam to
your point I mean it's say ithas saved it has saved more than
it's hurt.
Yeah I agree and that piece ofequipment has helped me be able
to justify you know actionsbecause I see what I see
regardless of what um theoutside noise is and so I I I

(01:10:07):
come in on things with with Iguess if you say an open mind
recognizing number one that youknow force some force sometimes
has to be used on people thatdon't want to go to jail.
If they don't want to go to jailin and and they want to fight
you or don't want to go I meanforce is part of what we do.
But was the it I guess was theforce appropriate um and those

(01:10:30):
type of things and not everyissue is the same.
Yeah right and so again but Irecognize not the choreograph
dance so really dissecting thereport and looking at the uh at
the um you know the reasoningbehind it and what the video
looks like and I don't meanlooks like from oh my God
because it's not it's gonna bechaos.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:50):
I mean what the video looks like with regards to
the type of force theapplication of the force um
force never looks good.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:57):
It does it's never gonna look good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:59):
But if you go into it knowing it never looks good
and you're looking for the theelements that either make it
justified or not justifiedthat's how I I come into those
situations.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:10):
Okay.
Fair enough.
Good the um it's it it is it'salways especially when you get a
new chief uh that's one of thefirst things that these guys
they because they want to dotheir job but damn like you got
a got a got a chief coming outfrom California.
Now luckily for you you had someDallas time.
So they got they got somethingto go off of and and I like I

(01:11:32):
said from some of the Dallasguys that I talked to nothing
bad.
Nothing nothing where they werelike I didn't feel like I
couldn't do my job.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:39):
No I I again and particularly they just you know
when it comes to the foursituations there's always
difficult decisions that a chiefhas to make right but honestly
again and it goes the samething.
When we're wrong we have to saywe're wrong.
But when we're right and thiswhat it comes back when I talk
about when we're wrong we'rewrong we're right we're right
that that we talked previouslywe're talking about the most
polarizing issue and that's theforce issue.

(01:11:59):
That that's what we get heldaccountable more for anything
else right um but it's importantto really take a look at it with
a with a you know with a a freshlook with an open mind when you
are when you're reallydissecting it.
And again I can't give you aspecific answer as to how I view
force other than you know I lookat it recognizing and
understanding that it I'm notgoing to be shocked by what I

(01:12:20):
see, whether it's justified ornot because it's chaotic.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:24):
Um and already having that in my brain as I
look as the force is applicatedand things of that nature is how
I would render a decision andmake a decision on it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:32):
Yeah.
And it I think it I don't thinkanybody that hears me asking
that question is expecting aclean answer because you can't
give one unless we're sittinghere watching a video.
Yeah I mean exactly it buthearing you go through your
steps and what you're thinking Ithink it does put minds at ease.
We're like okay so he he's he'sa regular dude.
Like there like he gets it likeyou you've been in some

(01:12:53):
knockdown drag outs I'm assumingin your career.
Yes.
Especially policing in the early90s uh and I don't know if all
the movies are true butCalifornia see Northern
California especially seemed tohave some big criminal issues
going on at least in all theearly 90s movies that we had
watched it was it wasCalifornia's changed quite a bit
were you watch was the movieColors like one of your favorite
movies?

(01:13:14):
Um with Pac-Man remember colorsis a good one it is a good one
yeah it has some cheesy partsbut it's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:22):
But as far as learning the gangs and all that
stuff back in the day I yeah butthe the best movie I think what
is it end of watch end of alwaysokay so you're end of watch my
guy the end of watch I'll behonest with you right so I've
always said this end of watchwatching the banter watching the
interaction I said whatevertechnical they they had a cop be
that technical advice yeshonestly to me I tell but I hate

(01:13:44):
the ending the ending kills meand then when Southland that was
another good I didn't see that Ithink that was out of California
the best movie and I heardthere's coming a part two the
best movie of my time willalways be Heat.
Oh yes Michael Mann that thatthe best crime drama of my time
anyway will be that was uh Iheard there's a part two and uh

(01:14:05):
Pacino De Niro Val Kilmer yeahyeah yeah oh man it was that was
awesome that was that was greatthat was such a great movie when
they sit down and they talk atthe diner and they're talking
about there'll come a time whenyeah when I'm on the other side
and he's like I won't hesitate.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:20):
I'm like oh my God so gangster yeah that's cool
that's cool um and then justpersonally like uh you you get
we kind of foreshadowed on thisearlier you said sergeants are
the backbone yeah and I'm ahundred percent behind that not
because I'm a sergeant now butthis was prior to get getting
into that spot every time I seewe'll go we'll go micro anytime

(01:14:42):
I see a unit fail or succeedit's always a good or bad
sergeant behind it it's not theofficers you can only do as well
as you're led and thatsergeant's that conduit between
upper leadership and what'sgoing on on the ground they're
the last line and then everybodyelse sits in an office for the
most part there's certain onesthat like Robin Krauss I don't

(01:15:04):
think that guy's ever sat fullybehind a desk um but you you get
some outliers like that but Iwhat is your view right now for
the sergeants and how do you howdo you manage sergeants from
your level?
Like what what do you what'syour outlook for sergeants?

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:21):
Well I mean my outlook for sergeants is for
them to know that you know frommy perspective I respect the
role I mean I would tell everysergeant the same thing I tell
you that the most important rankin the department they're where
the rubber rubber meets the roadright that they're where policy
meets practice.
And knowing that with thatrespect though comes with great
responsibility right myexpectation is you supervise.

(01:15:43):
You don't over supervise but youactively supervise um because
you know we have to we I neededwe when I was 21 years old I
needed good supervision.
Yeah all right I needed a goodsergeant.
I wasn't ready to be a cop at 21like when well I was if I'm
being honest I just I don'tthink I was I needed I needed
someone to guide me and show meright and these are our

(01:16:03):
sergeants need to recognize howimportant they are and with that
importance comes thatresponsibility to be there.
Yep you got to learn how to be asergeant too um I would like to
see uh more time as a corporalbefore you're a sergeant yep um
I think I think uh you know I Ithink I just think you need to

(01:16:24):
be you need to have a little bitmore uh to be able to be a
sergeant right um and sergeantsneed to be willing to mentor
well I was gonna get to thatyeah no no but you're 100% right
we need to have and and againlooking through this what what
is our mentorship program do wehave that or do we just say hey
you're promoted at thepromotional ceremony go out
right on Monday you meet yourteam yeah right what are we

(01:16:45):
doing is there you know so whatare we doing to prepare them
properly um you know if anobviously your admin goes
through the roof yeah uh fromofficer corporal to sergeant um
from injury reports and accidentreports and you know blue teams
all that stuff right so what arewhat are we doing to train them
right um because knowledge ispower and what I mean by that

(01:17:08):
whether you're whether you'respeaking to a crowd of 10,000 or
whether you're doing a duty as asergeant the more knowledgeable
you are the better you will beyes right of just knowing those
things right um the moreknowledgeable you are about a
particular topic you can talkall day crowd of 10,000 and do
it confidently.
And the same thing goeseverywhere down the down the
rank structure, right?

(01:17:29):
And so really listening to oursergeants um is important.
You know, as a matter of fact Iknow we were we're we're working
on uh you know updating thepursuit policy as an example
right but one of the things wedid right um is we brought a
group of sergeants in to have aconversation with them about and
make them stakeholders make themfeel that they're part of the
decision making process nowwe're gonna we necessarily gonna

(01:17:50):
do that every single time but onthis particular issue we had a
particular issue that I saidlisten bring the sergeants in
and hear from them.
Yeah right I haven't been asergeant since well a long time
so uh and so really empoweringthem yeah um you know and
trusting them um you know aresome of the messages that I
would give them for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:10):
Yeah I one of the things that historically now I'm
military uh some will make funof me because I'm Air Force so
it's quasi military.
We'll give them that.
Um and but military we the onething that military will do in
in any branch is from day oneyou are being trained and
mentored to handle the person'sjob that's ahead of you.

(01:18:31):
And I think policing is onlyjust now catching up to that.
So for sergeants and when I'myou know hopefully some
sergeants that listen to thisthat that's one of the things
that I recommend.
Like even me right now I'm asergeant but I have a senior
sergeant that I work with andhe's mentoring me.
And I think it's awesome becausehe's got so much more
experience.
So I'm but he's prior militarytoo.

(01:18:52):
So he understands that role ofalways trying to get the person
that's going to take over yourjob because eventually I'm gonna
take his spot you know he's inthe drop he doesn't have super
long so that is one of thethings I look at and you not
being you weren't military priorcorrect I was in the reserves oh
you was reserves earlier yeah ohno shit yeah for who?
Uh army okay you didn't get toohigh on your ass fab that's cool

(01:19:17):
that's cool.
Uh sorry it's a little ballbusting and the National Guard
but yeah okay that well you didbust a little well a lot of
times the army will go it's coolAir Force is our little sister
you're welcome for your branchbecause we wouldn't be here
without the army um if for thosethat don't know historically the
Air Force actually was the ArmyAir Force and then we branched
off onto our own.
So uh but where was I going withthat I went down a rabbit hole

(01:19:40):
um oh mentoring um so inpolicing one of the things that
I hope the sergeants out therelistening for is that it's your
job if we if we do the corporalrole it's gonna be even bigger
that you you help mentor thecorporals without just making
them do your job.
Like because I I could see thatbeing a thing where they're like
all right handle the blue teamlike no you gotta you gotta help

(01:20:03):
them learn how to do yourposition so when that time comes
right they they're they're readythey're set for success.
So um no that's really cool.
I'm really excited about thecorporal side of things but
Chief that's really all I got Iknow you got time constraints
and whatnot um just to end itlike what do you like to do for
fun?
What can these guys where canthese guys buy you a beer?
I'm just kidding oh geez I wouldlike to well again I said this

(01:20:24):
before I was uh I was a DallasCowboy fan uh before I spoke
English okay I would make fun ofyou but I'm a Lions fan okay so
you can see my guys are doingmuch better than we are right
now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:34):
We've never won a Super Bowl you know I like for
you know for fun um you know Ilike to get in the gym uh I like
to go to good dinners um yeahyou know uh and watch sports
right I love love watchingfootball the college and and
pro.
Okay so football guy you knowwhen you go to the gym now are
you like a hit guy or are you uhyou lifting heavy weights like I

(01:20:55):
don't know about heavy weightsbut I'm I'm in the gym I see
this guy uh I'll be Alec forthose ones I see I I see the
this guy in the mornings I I getup at five every morning I do my
cardio yeah uh he does hot yogahurts and then I do my cardio
then I go to the gym uh and uhtake Sundays off I enjoy doing
that uh I enjoy going to games Ienjoy sporting events I enjoy
visiting uh uh my cut my kidsand my daughter lives here but

(01:21:19):
my uh one of my sons lives inCalifornia the other one lives
in Kansas I like and I have agrandson you're a grandpa no I'm
a grandpa look like a grandpayeah well thank you but yeah I'm
looking forward to visiting himin a couple weeks and seeing my
little guy heck yeah um and soagain and I and I'll be honest
with you man I tell you somepeople tell me I'm nuts
sometimes but like I like to goout on patrol right like I I

(01:21:41):
enjoy doing that I think that'sawesome even after a a 70 hour
work week um okay so what do youyou go out to patrol there's
gonna be officers that hear thiswhat's your advice for them if
they're the unlucky sucker thathas to have the cheap ride with
them we're gonna have fun okaythat's what I would say we're
just we're gonna have fun we'regonna have fun yeah that's what
we would do again um we're gonnahave a good time uh and uh I

(01:22:04):
love I love going with out withcops and seeing how things are
man and how it's funny howthings have changed and how some
things haven't changed.
Right.
Right I went to uh you know Iwent on patrol in East and you
know in the middle of the nightthe entire team we went to uh uh
a Takeri uh uh truck that wasthere a taco truck that was
there oh yeah and was it the oneon Rosedale I can't remember

(01:22:26):
where it was that was a good oneoff of Air's in Rosedale but
anyway we had we had dinner onthe hood of a car man heck yeah
and I'm like and I remember Itweeted our ex whatever you call
it ex it tweeted it whatever theheck you want to call it
twittered um it was again thatwas just brought me back to like
92 man it was like so how somethings some things have changed
other things happen thecamaraderie man and the it was

(01:22:47):
that's a good side of town forit oh it was yeah they were
close at the time they were theywere but you know things have
changed and obviously you know Ido want to mention just how
important wellness is to me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:57):
I was just gonna I guess so you work out what
you're telling me chief is thatthere's no excuse to not get in
the gym once in a while.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:03):
No honestly there's no excuse um you know there's no
excuse not to get in the gym butuh for mental wellness right for
our officers right and you knowI just met with AWA and our
three program the other day justabout what they're doing and the
partnership that we have andmake sure that our cops are
mentally fit and they know thetools that you know and things
like that.
So that's important.
But yeah those are the thingsthat I like to do for fun.

(01:23:24):
You know like you know thisweekend I got to work tomorrow
morning and then I got to workSunday morning but in between
I'll try to I'll try to relax alittle bit.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:30):
It might be some fun tonight so just so you know.
Well it's Halloween I've justHalloween I might yeah I might
just chill yeah tonight.
So um I would not be surprisedif you didn't get a phone call.
So it's don't put that out inthe universe bro would you want
me to say the opposite though Iwould rather you not say
anything.
What is wrong with you puttingthat out in the universe all
right chief I'm gonna let youget back to your job.

(01:23:52):
I really appreciate you takingthe time to do this um and I'm
gonna say it on the camera likebro you are a cops cop like I
love it.
Uh again I like to considermyself a human bullshit detector
I look for one thing the theglint in the eye when they talk
about the job if I can see thatI know it's true.
So really appreciate your timeum I wish you nothing but

(01:24:12):
success now that you're here.
Really glad to have you andthat's all I got.
Thank you sir.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24:16):
All right thank you thanks for having me appreciate
you brother

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