Lenny Nebretski: How Police Tech Saves Lives!

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Disclaimer Welcome to Two Cops One Donut podcast.
The views and opinionsexpressed by guests on the
podcast are their own and do notnecessarily reflect the views
of Two Cops One Donut, its hostor affiliates.
The podcast is intended forentertainment and informational
purposes only.
We do not endorse any guests'opinions or actions discussed
during the show.
Any content provided by guestsis of their own volition and

(00:20):
listeners are encouraged to formtheir own opinions.
Furthermore, some content isgraphic and has harsh language.
Viewer discretion advised.
And Thank you for listening.
All right, welcome back to CopsOne Donut.

(00:50):
I am your host, eric Levine,and with me today is my co-host.
That's usually a co-host onlive streams, but today we're in
studio for the first time doinga tandem with our friend Lenny
Nebretsky.
Did I say that correctly,nebretsky?
Palny Nebretsky.
Did I say that correctly,nebretsky?
pal Nebretsky I always put the Rin the wrong place.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
You're not the only one that does that.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
It's Polish, so we'll just go with that.
100%, 100% right.
I'm still going to say yes,fair enough.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
How's it going, buddy ?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
It's going great time coming.
Oh my God, we've been talkingabout this?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
for what?

Speaker 1 (01:24):
18 months, two years, yeah, at least, and we finally
made it come together, banning.
We've been talking about thesame concept of us coming in and
tag-teaming our guests.
So prepare, you're about to gettag-teamed by a 300-pound
country boy.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Okay, I'm glad I had a big lunch today, going to need
those dollars.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, it's been 30 minutes prior right, you can
swim.
Okay, fair enough.
Today we're going to be talkingabout Lenny's career in law
enforcement, what led up to thatand what he specialized in out
there, I believe, new JerseyState Trooper, right yeah so
yeah, the first agency I workedwith was New Jersey State.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Troopers, right, yeah .
So yeah, the first agency Iworked with was New Jersey State
.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Troopers Okay, yeah, so State Troopers.
So if you guys are listening tothis, don't expect too much
excitement except writingtickets.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Oh my God, Right out from the gate he's getting at me
right after he's right out ofthe gate.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, I mean somebody's got to be a road
pirate, apparently, so all right.
Well, with that, sir, let's.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
But you left off to the other part too.
What's the other part?
Albuquerque Police Departmentpal.
So I was state police right,and then I went and worked for a
major metropolitan policedepartment, so you can't leave
that out either.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
I'm sorry.
Okay, so you went toAlbuquerque, which was the
punchline for everything onLooney Tunes.
Oh, my God turn yes, turn atalbuquerque, remember, so.
Yeah, that's going to go overso many people's heads when they
listen to this.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
I cannot wait yeah, it's like when I'm at work and I
work with a bunch of people whoare like in their 20s and 30s
and I make the reference toright turn at albuquerque, they
look at me like you make rightturns yeah yeah, love it.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
how many uh references do you get for shows
like breaking bad all the time,bro and bro?

Speaker 2 (03:03):
And I lean right in.
Man, you think the show is good.
Come pay me a visit.
Come to Albuquerque and I'lltake you on the real Breaking
Bad tour.
And come hungry and you willleave happy.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Is it out of Albuquerque?
Is that what the show was?
I knew it was Arizona, I justdidn't know it was Albuquerque.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, actually no, it would be New Mexico.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh, I'm sorry, I'm an idiot.
I said Arizona.
I meant New.
Mexico.

Speaker 3 (03:27):
Eric did not have lunch today.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
I did not.
I had a bag of protein chips.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
You're looking fit, pal.
I don't know what you're doingin the gym.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
You're doing something right.
Swimming, that's it.
I have not been working out,just swimming.
Yeah, 30 minutes a day day.
He swims with a leash.
Yeah, I do swim on a leash.
I showed him we were walking in.
I I got this new swimming thingwhere I my pool is about 11
yards long.
It's not long by any means, butit's a pain in the ass to swim
back and forth right, because Idon't know how to do the the

(03:57):
flippy thing in the water andpush off the wall.
I can't do all that, so Iwanted to get one of those
machines that blow a current atyou in the water so you can swim
against the current.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Hold your back.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Well, have you seen how much those cost Holy cow pal
.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I'm a humble public servant.
I can't afford that.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Right, yeah.
So I looked at that and I waslike, well, that's not in the
budget, so how else am I goingto do this?
And I found the pool dog leashthat you just tie to your hip
and anchor it down.
It works.
I swim for 30 minutes, I don'thave to lift my head above the
water.
I got me a lap snorkel.
I don't know if you've everseen those.
It's like a snorkel that goesstraight over your forehead.

(04:35):
Oh no kidding, just in aresting position.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
I've got to ask do you have a safe button or a help
, Some type a?

Speaker 1 (04:45):
safe word that you can yell if you get into trouble
.
No, no, no, if I go down, I godown with my boots, so speaking
of swimming.
Okay to plug the navy seal yeah, for sure, right, so like again
we were.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
As we were walking in here, we were talking about
swimming and everything.
I'm a I'm a former triathlete,so I used to like to swim a
whole bunch, and so, on august16th 2025, the navy seal
foundation is having the NewYork City SEAL swim.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
So it's a little too close for me to get in and
qualify and get in this event,but one great event to support.
What an, what an awesomefoundation.
Navy SEAL Foundation doesamazing work, right?
But, um, now I'm going to startchallenging my teammates.
Like, we got a year right.
We got a year to qualify, wegot a year to train, let's get
ready and let's go crush it.
20, 26.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, and you said it's a three mile swim.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Well, yep, to qualify , you have to be able to a three
mile open water swim.
Can you kind of give an exampleof people wanted to support
that, what it goes to, how doesit help the I really don't want
to misrepresent anything, sowhat I'll do is I'll say is like
if you go toNavySealFoundationorg, you'll
get the specifics there, okay, Ilike it.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
That's one thing that is a problem for me.
Learning on the swimming sideis I'm tethered, so I'm trying
to use my Apple Watch.
It doesn't really give you anaccurate distance on how far you
swam, so I have no idea.
I swim for 30 minutes, reallyslow.
It's not like my average heartrate's like 145, so I'm just

(06:13):
trying to keep a pace that Iknow I could go 30 45 minutes
and can you do bilateralbreathing?

Speaker 2 (06:18):
breathe to both sides ?
Yeah yeah that's the gamechanger.
That'll, that'll.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
That's what keep you swimming in a straight line all
day long oh yeah, I did noticethat because when I was, I was
really good at swimming.
In high school.
I wasn't a high school swimmer.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
You were built like a swimmer.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
But I liked it.
And actually we had a pool,like most high schools don't
have that anymore.
So we had a pool and I learnedhow to do all of the different
styles there.
But if you don't use it, youdefinitely lose it, oh for sure.
So when I was trying to do themall again, I was like, well,
freestyle, I'm going to go with.
First, trying to get thebreathing down on that alone was

(06:57):
a nightmare as I was trying tofigure it out again.
And finally I figured it outand I was only going to my right
side, just because I wanted tobe consistent.
You wanted to breatheunderwater, right, yes, yes.
And so I went with the theright side.
And then, as I got morecomfortable, I started to change
it up and I was like all right,I'm gonna do a down and back on
the right side, a down and backon the left side to get more

(07:18):
comfortable, and now I can dothe, the bilateral.
Yeah.
So it does help a lot.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
I was never like, as I was triathlete and so like,
the swim was always somethingthat, like I just had to get
through so I could get on a bike.
And I was.
I was always a good cyclist anda good runner, so, like I, the
swim to me was the one obstacleI had to get through so I could
get yeah get back into the hunt.
Um man, I'll tell you like umnow, in retrospect, I wish I'd
spent more time swimming,because it's just great for your

(07:43):
body right, it's an awesomeworkout like low impact.
I mean, yeah, it's a really goodworkout yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I love it.
I was, uh, I was built forcannonballs off the right, yeah,
yeah, I could see that, sosomewhere out there.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
You know, just like one of those, you ever see those
like little floating docks andlike when a kid sits on the edge
and somebody lands on it andthey go flying in the air right,
those are awesome somewherethere's a five-year-old waiting
for you to land yes.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Um, all right, lenny, I want to know.
There's a lot of draws togetting into law enforcement or
life of service, military,whatever it is.
Yeah, and everybody's story isit is unique.
Yeah, but it's funny thatthere's some common themes, like
, for me, I tell people thereason.
Everybody thinks I got into lawenforcement because my dad was

(08:31):
a cop.
That's not why I got in.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I never knew that.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, he retired from the agency that I'm currently
at and it was a factor.
I don't want to act like itwasn't a factor.
It was a factor in there, butthat wasn't the big draw for me.
The big draw for me was, as akid, seeing, at family reunions
and stuff like that, who dideverybody gravitate to, who had
the respect of the family.

(08:53):
And so for me it was seeingyour, your grandma, my
grandfather was a firefighterand you know I had my cousin was
a state trooper in Michigan andI had a couple cousins that
were Army and military people, acouple Marines.
Those were who everybodygravitated to every single time.
And I'm like, oh shit, I wantthat respect Not to be in the

(09:15):
limelight but to make my familyproud.
And that was the only way tomake your family proud that I
was seeing was that's where youget the respect.
So I was like, okay, cool, thatwas a big draw for me.
And then I had a bad experiencewith some cops as, like a
12-year-old, they came down thestreet, saw me playing
basketball on the street with myfriends, knocked my hoop down,

(09:37):
stabbed my basketball, said wetold you kids to stop playing
basketball on the street.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
That's so sad.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, and I wasn't who they were talking about.
I lived on a dead-end street sothere's no through traffic ever
, right?
So there was no.
I think he had messed with someother kids on another street
that was close by and justconfused us, right?
So in that I was not happy withpolice, I did not like police,
I see why.
And my dad was a cop down herein Texas, so I called him and I

(10:03):
was like I hate cops.
Like I was like you're cool,dad, but these cops suck, and
you know.
And he's like well, you caneither be a part of the problem
and part of the solution, and sothat kind of stuck with me and
I wasn't hearing it at that time.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Isn't that what we do as dads?
Right we ask the rightquestions.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
And so now, look you know, looking back, that was a
big event for me and his wordsstuck with me, and that's what
I'm getting to when I ask youthis question.
What were the draws?
I know it's probably more thanone factor, but what got you
into a life of service?

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Wow.
And so like I think, like a lotof people, like it was all
things that kind of cametogether at one time, right.
And so for me, like when Ifirst got out of high school, I
didn't have a whole lot ofoptions.
I really wanted to go tocollege and just family
financial situation.
It just wasn't an option for me, so I ended up going to night

(10:55):
school.
I'm actually a DeVry Technologygraduate and so like this is a
long, long time ago, long timeago.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
I never heard of anybody that actually graduated
from DeVry.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, I actually graduated from DeVry because
that's like what I could affordand I just I needed something.
I needed like a vocation that Icould make a decent living at.
I had been like an automechanic so I knew how to fix
things Like I guess that's likea skill I've always had is like
I can look at stuff and kind offigure out how it works and fix
it real easy.
So I'm like I should do thatwith computers.
So I went to DeVry.

(11:24):
I went, you know, I wentnonstop for three years at night
so I could graduate, get intolike private sector.
I'm out there.
This is a long time ago.
So I'm out there, I'm what theycall a field technician, right,
and I'm working on computersand customer sites.
And very quickly I realized likeman, this is not the job for me

(11:48):
, Right Like it's just umthere's no reward in it.
Like you know, when you'reworking for like a private
sector company, like somethinglike that, it just the rewards
are different than when you'rein a position where you're
serving and at the same time, uh, I had a really good friend to
say he was my hunting buddy,like we would hunt together, you
know, every week and he's justa super great guy.
Joe galetta love him to thisday.
Um, his brother was a newjersey state trooper.

(12:10):
So, joe, joe applied for andwent into the academy, 102nd
class graduate.
He graduates state policeacademy and he comes out and
like he cannot stop talkingabout how great his life is and
the work that he gets to do andthe things that he gets to do.
And I'm like I'm listening toall this and I'm like he really
likes his job and he gets a lotof satisfaction out of what he

(12:33):
does.
And I'm going to work every dayand I'm not happy, like this is
not really what I wanted to do.
So I got into the process.
So, like in New Jersey, like ifyou want to be a New Jersey
state trooper back then it was apretty arduous process, like I
remember, like the the firststep in that process is like a
written examination.
So I show up at one of theplaces where they're having a
written examination and likethere's literally 15,000 people

(12:57):
that queued up outside anauditorium waiting to get in and
take a written test, and likethere are troopers who are just
totally squared away, I meanlike in shape, looking good,
like you know, greatconstructive force, and like I'm
like this is for me, like thisis for me.
I guess it is what I want to do.
And, like you know, we all,we're always like, okay, this is
what I want to do.
And like it doesn't always goas smoothly as you hope, right.

(13:19):
And so, like I go through allthe process, right, make, didn't
make it through the first time,came back, tried a second time,
got through, got put into aclass.
I got put into the 113th classand we're one of those classes
in New Jersey history where,like the class mustered up and
we were ready to go to theacademy and, for whatever reason

(13:40):
, the budget and state of NewJersey at that time changed and
our whole class got put on hold.
So for like three and a halfyears we kind of sat in limbo.
So I, you know, I just okay,I'm on hold, like I'm going to,
this is what I want to do.
So I've got to figure out whatI'm going to do in my life until
we get ready to go to theacademy, which was just kind of
like a never ending story.
But we're all waiting.
So I went to New York.

(14:01):
I work for an advertisingagency in New York.
I ran like a technology, like asoftware programming function
for this marketing company, butI could just tell like it just
wasn't what I wanted to be doing, like it's just didn't have the
same level of fulfillment thatI was looking for.
You know and I look back at mylife, eric like some things

(14:27):
happen for a reason.
I think I'm like that personlike things happen for a reason
in my life, like going to thatcompany, uh, in New York, really
wasn't kind of on my radar.
But then like I'm there for acouple years and then I meet
these people in the office and Imeet this one person in the
office who's just like the mostbeautiful, dynamic human I've
ever met in my life and she haslike to this day takes my breath

(14:47):
away.
And so like I guess it was likegoing to work for that company
in New York was a pit stop onthe journey that I'm on.
But like in that pit stop I met, I met the love of my life and
so that's where I met my wifeand we've been together 31 years
.
So I think like that was partof my journey, like I was

(15:07):
supposed to be there.
Thankfully it's at one pointlike the class musters up.
We go to the state policeAcademy 21 weeks at Seagirt,
just another sunny day on thebeach in Seagirt, and it was
just, I felt, so incrediblyfortunate to like make it
through training to become a NewJersey state trooper and to

(15:27):
serve.
Like it was just like Iremember walking across that
stage on January 15th 1993, twohigh balls in a in a in a left
face and the first thing theSergeant says at the other side
of the job, the other side ofthe stage, is that you come
across and you got your badge inyour hand.
He says good job, troop.
Like man like to this day Ithink about that, I still get I

(15:48):
still get like chills about likehow great that was to be like.
And he says good job, firsttime anybody ever called me
trooper.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yes, that's what I was going to say.
21 weeks and then, all of asudden, it's just like you know,
graduating bootcamp, that'swhat I was just going to refer
to.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
You know, in the marine corps they they treat you
like a bag nasty oh yeah, forthe entire time.
Until that, that second tofinal day, they're handing you
the eagle globe and anchorsymbol, badge symbolization yeah
, right, and they say marine.
And I don't care how badass youare, I don't care what you've
gone through in your life, youbreak down like a five-year-old.

(16:24):
It's just because it's natural.
You know what I'm saying.
You've worked so hard to get tothat point.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Because it means something.
That's the thing.
One of the problems that I'mseeing in law enforcement these
days is people are getting intothis career field and it's not a
career for them.
They know that it's a steppingstone for other stuff, that they
just passing time to me, and Ifind that incredibly odd.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, and so it's just, it's a, it's a different
lifestyle, it's a differentlevel of commitment.
Again, like you know, I'm soproud to this day to be in New
Jersey state trooper I always bein a Jersey state trooper.
I'm also so proud to haveserved with the Albuquerque
police department, like that'sall I ever really wanted to do.
Like I didn't come to the statepolice thinking like, wow, this

(17:09):
is going to be a stepping stonefor me to go do 10 other things
.
And we all know, like on the,you know, once you retire
there's so many opportunitiesfor you, learn so many skills,
you pick up so much experience.
Like you, you're so marketablein other places.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
But that was never really my intention other places
, but that was never really myintention.
Yeah, yeah, Now in becoming astate trooper.
Uh, this was in.
You said 92.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
So I graduated January 15th 1993, 13 state
police class started August 23rd1992, probably the hottest day
on the earth, right, yeah?
And so for the first 90 minuteswe all stood in formation in
the parking lot with our luggageright.
For 90 minutes, putting it downand picking it up, and putting

(17:49):
it down and picking it up, untilwe could all put down our bags
and pick them up at the sametime.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
So yeah, yeah, it's adhesion, that team adhesion
that you need to get yeah, itwas a unique environment.
Yeah, yeah now, you actuallystayed, you slept there, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, yeah, so we're a residency academy to this day.
We're one of the few residencyacademies, which is a blessing
and a curse.
Like it's a blessing that youget to spend so much time with
your classmates and you reallybond as a class, you gel as a
class.
Like you know you very quicklyall get on the same page or you
don't, and if you don't, youdon't really last very long.
And then like that's, that'sthe blessing.
And then you know being up atthree o'clock in the morning,

(18:25):
you know marching around atthree o'clock in the morning.
You know you'll, you'll be outmarching, you'll come back and
they've tossed all of your bunksout.
You know mattresses out on theout of the front lawn.
Now you got to go clean allthat stuff up.
Yeah, it's good, I like it allright, cool now.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
you did how many years as a new jersey new New
Jersey state trooper 25 years.
So you did 25 years there, sothat's a long career.
Can you tell me your two mainspecialties that?
You know some people?
I did SWAT or I did canine or Idid you know vice like what was
your specialties as a trooper?

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah, so I became a state trooper and I always
wanted to get intoinvestigations.
Like that was the thing thatalways drove me.
I was always intrigued by it.
Like you know, when I wasworking at a station as a road
trooper in uniform and out theredoing patrol, you know, every
station had like stationdetectives.
Like I was always reallyinterested in what they were

(19:19):
doing, how they were doing it,like the you know, like all the
psychology behind, likeinterviews and stuff like that.
Like I was always reallyinterested in that.
So like that was always myfocus.
I always wanted to get intosome form of investigations.
Now, when you come out of thestate police academy, everybody
goes on the road.
Like everybody serves inuniform, general duty road
trooper, right, so everybodydoes a stint on the the road and

(19:43):
that's good.
Like everybody comes from thesame basis of you know
experience, you know sameexperience, you know you, uh,
you do similar duties.
So everybody's a general dutyroad tripper and then typically,
depending upon what assignmentyou'd like to go to, like as you
get more and more time on, youbecome eligible to apply for
assignments.
Um, I only ever applied to be adetective and, and so I was

(20:03):
really really, really fortunate.
With about five years on, Ibecame a detective.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, now what was the specific crimes that you
went after as a detective?
Was it sex crimes, propertycrimes?
What was it?

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah.
And so there was an opening forpositions in the intelligence
section.
And like they don't tell youexactly what your job's going to
be when you go to theintelligence section, just like,
hey, like you can go to theintelligence section.
So like there were detectivesin the intelligence sections.
There were people in ESU,electronic surveillance unit.
They had other positions in theintelligence section.

(20:34):
So I just interviewed for theintelligence section and, quite
frankly, like I had a strongtechnical background and so I
really thought, like you know,with all that, with all my
experience in technology, I'mlike they'll scoop me up in ESU
and I'll go do what ESU started.
I was okay with that, I justwanted to.
I wanted to get intoinvestigations and during the
interview, this Lieutenant whowas in the interview board,

(20:56):
jimmy, like he was just awesome,like you know we, you know we
did the panel interview.
You know I went through thatwhole process and afterwards he
like he pulls me aside.
He's like you're coming with me, all right.
And so I ended up being in theintelligence center, the
intelligence central unit, andhe's like they all wanted to
pull you for ESU Cause obviouslyI had like a technical

(21:17):
background.
He's like you'll make a muchbetter detective out on the
street and I to this day I'll beincredibly thankful Like my
career could have gone in anentirely different direction but
, Jimmy saw something in me thathe thought was really good and
pulled me into the uh, theintelligence central section.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Can you describe what that is for people that have
never heard of that unit?

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Oh, so, yeah, so, um, and it's, it's all changed.
This was going back in 1995,right, no, I'm sorry, 1998.
So it's changed.
No-transcript.

(22:08):
Or just like DTOs, like drugtrafficking organizations, as
long as there was an organizedcrime nexus, we could collect
information on that.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Okay, interesting.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, helpful.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
I know I like that.
Well, the whole point is toeducate other people on stuff
they don't see.
I know what it is.
I just, yeah, I gotta, I gottaget it out of you to.
You'll get used to the formatof how I ask questions and then
get clarifying questions toeducate the people.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
So is that AC working for you, bud?
That's great, okay, just makingsure so, and like again, like
freezing my ass off over hereLuckiest guy you've ever met.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Hopefully, as I'm telling my story, you'll see
what I'm talking about.
Like luckiest guy I ever met,like my first, you know.
So I come out of uniform, I goto be a detective, like my first
assignment, like they couldhave sent me 90 miles to B Troop
, or they could have sent me 110miles to C Troop.
I get assigned to C Troop,which is like 15 minutes from my
house.
Now, granted, that's where theoffice was.
All of our work was out in thefield, so we were all over the

(23:06):
state.
But like, like literally, I gotstationed very the closest
place to my house.
So I felt incredibly fortunate.
And then, like in theintelligence section, as opposed
to some of the otherinvestigative units, so like if
I had gone to narco, I'd only beworking drugs, if I had gone to
major crimes, I'd only beworking like major crimes.
If I had gone to, you know,cargo theft or auto theft, like
I'd be working those specificcrimes.
In the intelligence section,you worked everything.

(23:28):
You could work drug trafficking, you could work, a homicide,
you could work whatever, likeyou could work, um, you know,
organized criminal groups, you,you know, um, you had the
opportunity to work all of thosecrimes which is pretty cool I
like that yeah, my whole thingfrom being in law enforcement.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
I you know, I got in just about a year after the
towers got hit in 01 and uh,meaning working for law
enforcement, and when I got totalk to the guys that were
training me is listening to thatevolution of technology, right?
So you were in during that timeto where technology was really
starting to oh yeah, take off.
You know we were going from youknow, in high school I had a bag

(24:06):
phone and a beeper.
You know I did tow truckdriving as one of my gigs in
high school.
My school actually helped meget that job.
And frigging watching thetechnology go and law
enforcement trying to do thatchase, oh yeah.
So and how do you feel thatyour agency did when the
evolution of the smartphonestarted coming?
Were they real quick to gettrained up and do train the

(24:29):
trainer and I'm talking aboutwhen we get to the phone dumps
and we get to the you know doyou feel that your agency always
wanted to be tip of the spearand learning as the technology
would rise, going after thesebad guys and all the technology
they were using?

Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah, and so like we were always trying to stay ahead
of it.
But, like we all know it's,it's a challenge, like we, we
always wanted to make sure, likewe were one step ahead, but
like technology at that time waschanging so quickly that it was
really kind of hard to stay up.
And so I remember like being,like you know, being a monitor
in a wire room and being up on awire tap and then like, oh,
what are these Nextel phones?

(25:03):
Blah, blah, blah.
What's this whole blah blahblah thing?
Right, and then all of a sudden, like in a day, like all our
wires went dead and like, oh,they switched to Nextels.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
You know what?
My favorite thing to do withthat was when your friends are
at the store.
Right, and there was no, youcouldn't silence that thing, so
you'd just chirp and just startmaking noise.
Oh man, I would make the mostinappropriate noises that were
out there.
Oh, my God Just to get yourfriends or we'd.
I won't even go into how far wewould go to make that prank

(25:37):
work.
Yeah, but it was epic.
I loved that era of Nextel.
And then they finally came outwith the update.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
So it wouldn't do that anymore.
But isn't that like thegreatest thing about, you know,
working in law enforcement islike it's such a bond between
the people that you work withand the people that you love the
most are the people that youprank the most?
Oh for sure, Holy cow.
Like I will tell you fromfirsthand experience, like you
give a state trooper like acouple of pictures and some
scotch tape and a copy machine,and they can, they are like a

(26:07):
Picasso with who they, you knowwho hit whose head they can put
on whatever and like, yeah, they, they can turn some, they can,
they can do some art themselves.
The original Photoshop theoriginal Photoshop, which was
like the scotch tape and thecopier.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yes, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
And that's how you knew you were loved, like if
they weren't giving you a hardtime you might be doing
something wrong.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, you might be the dude that nobody really
likes to hang out with.

Speaker 3 (26:30):
Yeah.
So stay in that mindset for asecond and go back to.
You graduated the academy, yougot your badge.
You know a lot of states do itdifferently.
Eventually you're issued yourcar and a lot of times you're
not even going to be in that carbecause you're with your FTO

(26:50):
and his.
You know, and and going throughthese different phases, what
were some of the, theshenanigans, if you will, that
veteran troopers would do to you.
That you may have, you may havepassed that and did it
throughout the years, cause weall have there's a ton of things
that Texas does and it'sprobably same all over the
country, because we all havethere's a ton of things that
Texas does and it's probably thesame all over the country, but
there's these little nuancesthat people do and some of it's
really funny and it's not thatmean.
And some of them are really meanas well.

(27:11):
You know we had some as wellthat I went through.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
but I'd love to hear yeah, I thought baby powder was
mean.
I did not like that one.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, so I'll tell you like fleet key, like fleet
key on the car, like, so likeyou park your car, leave it
running in front of the seven 11to go in and get a cup of
coffee, and you lock your carRight and you left it running,
but it's locked Right, you're inthere.
Maybe you're in there a littletoo long Cause you're having a
conversation with the peopleinside there.

Speaker 1 (27:47):
And then, like you come out and all of a sudden
your car is nowhere to onsomebody's face when they're
like, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah,yeah, it's just around the
corner, yeah.
So for those listening, ifyou're wondering what we're
talking about when we say fleetkey, all the patrol cars for
certain agencies they operateoff of one cut for a key.
So typically an officer alwayshas two keys and they keep one
on their belt or wherever, andthe other one always stays in
the car because the car willstay running, because you want
your computer to be up andrunning, you want the batteries
to die, you want the if,depending on your state, you
want it to be warm or you wantit to be cold on the inside, but

(28:09):
you need to be ready to go incase of an emergency at all
times.
So the cars always run well.
If somebody has the same exactkey as you on all the same
vehicles, well, they can get inand out of your car and the
shenanigans begin.
So one of the pranks that Ihated the most, that I thought
was mean, and it was the babypowder.

(28:30):
They would shove baby powderinside the AC vent Kick
everything on high for when youstart it.
Yeah.
So when you start that car upit would just or talcum powder,
whatever they wanted.
It was baby powder when I sawit.
If you're in Texas and you'resweaty when you get into the car
it just turns to mud and youjust can't get it out of your

(28:50):
damn uniform, not until you washit anyway, and it's just there
and you're screwed.
And I thought that was a meanone.
I don't mess with people's foodeither.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
I may eat some of your food if I ask, I ask, but,
uh, I'm not going to mess withyour food, and so, like you know
, so on midnights, like we ridetwo troopers to a car in
midnights, and so you know backthen, uh, when you would get
together.
For you know, for dinner on amidnight you go to like a local
diner.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
You rode two troopers to a car.
I've never seen that anywhere.
Two troopers to a car Holy cowyeah.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
And so, like your partner on Midnight's man, I'll
tell you you go through somereally good things together.
You go through some hard thingstogether, but you go through
them together.
Yeah, but like squad.
But typically it was quiet.
We'd all get together at adiner and we you know everybody
sit down and have like an oldschool squad breakfast or
whatever.
Yeah, finished your meal Likeyou didn't want to get up
halfway through and come back,cause, like you know, maybe

(29:44):
maybe you got halfway throughyour breakfast.
You come back.
That thing is gone.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Salt on your pancake.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
No, no, I don't mess with a person's food, that's a
that's a no, no for me you know,but guys and girls tight super,
super tight, yeah, absolutely.
And, like you know, I think backto like some of the things that
just and I'll be I will foreverbe thankful for.
I mean just like, literally,you know we had the, you know
our portables, like when I firstgot out of portable, had no

(30:12):
hand mic right, so you got tocarry it on your belt, but then
we got the ones with a littlehand mic, you know, lapel mic
you can just kind of click Ican't tell you how many times
like I'd be out on a car stop orsomething, and like literally
all I'd have to do is just clickthe mic, beep, beep.
Hey, can you send somebody thisway?
You start rolling a car thisway and next thing I know I'd
have you know, five of myclosest friends rolling my way

(30:33):
to come help me if I needed it.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
and like yep yeah they know if Lenny's calling,
there's something, something'samiss, because he doesn't call
for help unless he needs it.
So yeah, that's it.
That is the benefit that I seewith troopers versus municipal
cops, versus the ability to gothrough your academy together
and stay together.
It's just like a boot camp andthat's why you get so close with

(30:55):
your friends and stuff in themilitary.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
Can I tell one academy story, of course, okay.
So you know, obviously you knowyou show up to the academy in
the first day, first weeks, youdon't, you don't really know
which which end is up, andthat's on purpose, right?
Um and so, like you know, veryspecific rules, very specific
guidelines about how you show up, what you show up with and like
, in our case, shaved head right.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Absolutely shaved head.
You know everything down, right, I had never shaved my head
before, like that was just notsomething I ever did, right.
So like the night before I'mgoing to the Academy, my
girlfriend at the time, whobecame my wife it's like she's
like shaving my head Right andlike I feel sorry for her to
this day that she had to do this.
But like she's like shaving,she's doing the best she can
with the razor and apparently,like, just like behind my ear

(31:47):
there was like this one littlestrand of hair, like everything
was pretty tight, but thenthere's like this one little
strand of here there behind myear.
And this guy's instructor, timfogarty.
I love that guy.
He's just a mountain of a man.
Like I'm standing in formationin the gym, we're getting ready
to do pt, and he's he's likelooking me up and down, he
starts yelling at me like whoshaved your head?
I'm like my girlfriend, sir,when you go home on Friday, tell

(32:07):
her she sucks and then don'tcome back on Monday.
Thanks honey.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
Plot twist when you got home, she'd be like did they
find the hair Got you?
Good, fucker, exactly, oh, crap, yeah that.
I think that's the differencebetween the municipal and and
sheriff's departments, and stufflike.
What we went through is wedidn't get to, we went home
every night yeah, we're homeevery day, but sometimes that's

(32:37):
even more challenging.
Yeah, it is challengingespecially when you it wasn't
for me.
I always knew what I wanted todo, like I've been through three
police academies as it isanyway, right, especially when
you it wasn't for me I alwaysknew what I wanted to do, like
I've been through three policeacademies as it is anyway, right
, that's just.
And then I became an academyinstructor, so you really have
an insight on it.
And I'm just like you'regetting paid to work out, you're
getting paid to be yelled at,like it.

(32:58):
Who cares?
Like, if it's your dream,that's a drop in the bucket, I,
if it's your dream, that's adrop in the bucket, I don't care
.
So for me, not hard.
And you know, the military, Ithink, kind of broke me of that
really early.
So being separated from thefamily and then coming home and
seeing your loved one, I couldsee that taking a toll on some

(33:18):
people if they're not used tothat and don't have that, you
know, inoculation, so to speak,of being away from their family
and friends.
But for me it's never.
It.
Was it ever in the marine corps?
Maybe I could see.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Yeah, a little homesick but yeah, you get
homesick and everything, but wehad such a good crew where I was
stationed out or what I did.
You can get through it together, you know, everybody was going
through their own shit, so tospeak, yeah, and you had people
that you could talk to about it,which was great.
Yeah, we're all retardedmarines, so to speak jokingly.
Yeah, you know, and I say whatwas your favorite?

Speaker 2 (33:50):
what was your favorite flavor?

Speaker 3 (33:51):
crayon.
I call it great, but purpleyeah I've already, so I people
actually mail that to the in themail to me.
Friends on linkedin will sendme those all the time, so my
daughter will never run out ofcrayons At least the color
purple, that's right.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Exactly as long as they're grape, yeah.
And I think there's a bigdifference too now with the
generations.
They're so used to having thisreadily available, right.
And when we went through as ourgeneration, we had to cure our
own boredom a lot.
So going through basic for meeasy, like I didn't have that

(34:29):
homesickness because I knew howto drive my brain and keep
myself from dwelling, so tospeak.
Did I get homesick a little bit?
Yeah, if I thought about it.
But I think that's somethingthat we taught ourselves as a I
don't want to say a copingmechanism.
That's something that we taughtourselves as a I don't want to
say a coping mechanism, but theability to push through
adversity is.
We had to cure boredom.

(34:51):
I mean, I played wall ball forhours.
I don't know why I did it.
To me I was practicing tobecome the next Nolan Ryan.
You know in my head Like Iremember that exact thought.
I'm like, all right, nolanthrew a lot of baseballs.
I'm like I'm just gonna takethis tennis ball and just keep
chucking against the wall.
Yeah, practicing my infielding,right there, right.
And then hours, hours, you tryto tell my kids to go do

(35:15):
something for minutes, likethat's boring, I'm done backyard
with a ball up on the roof yeah, oh yeah, trying to wait
catching it rolling back,catching it for hours.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yup, do a little special bounce.
If you had gutters.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, he's likedang it.
Now I got to get back.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
They didn't have those gutter guards that they
have now.
Well, rich people, I think,adam.
I say that now, who's got him,this guy?

Speaker 2 (35:42):
so yeah, that's a quick question.
So I just gotta tell you like Ihave so much respect for
marines and what marines gothrough and and they're, like
you know, in their boot camp,like like what did you guys do
to get through?
Because I mean it's a tough,tough experience.
A lot of man love I went.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
I went through in uh in 97 and we were the first
platoon on the east coast ofparis island oh, wow roll
through what's called theCrucible and the Crucible.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
No kidding.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
So we had Parade Magazine there Navy Marine Corps
News.
It was really neat and ourplatoon was on an insert inside
of Parade Magazine, so you cansee my skinny.
I probably lost about 60 poundsin boot camp.
Wow, rocked up solid and neverlost that type of weight.
I played football in highschool and whatnot.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Right, rocked up solid and never lost that type
of weight I played football inhigh school and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
Right Born again, hard it was.
And all I had to go off of justto give you an example of where
I came from before I got intothat was my father was an Air
Force, or he was an officer inthe Air Force yeah, fighter
pilot.
And so I had his stories.
And any time I asked my fatherwhen I was mentally preparing
myself for the academy, becausemy recruiter wasn't really doing
that I was, I was anothernumber and he got me oh yeah,

(36:48):
was he's like banning, you don'thave to worry about it.
My father was jacking with me.
He's like you're gonna havethese little ladies that come in
at zero four hundred hours wheny'all wake up and they're gonna
make your beds for you and thenyou're, you know, they're gonna
help you get dressed becauseyou're probably gonna to be sore
from PT in the day before.
And he was just.
He was so mad that I decided togo to the Marine Corps and I
didn't want to follow hisfootsteps.
Oh wow.

(37:08):
Yeah he was the brainiac, I wasnot, so the Marine Corps was
perfect.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
And man, it was a shock and I was the guy that
came in and I think I coveredthis in one of his podcasts that
I didn't know anything about it.
I never watched the movie fullmetal jacket, I never saw
platoon, I didn't.
I didn't have the mentalpreparation.
My recruiter told me go run 400meters monday, wednesday and
friday and by the time you go toboot camp two days after high

(37:35):
school graduation you'll be good.
Well, I did track, I, but I didmore of a shot put in discus
yeah, that makes my thing thatmakes a lot of sense, and when I
ran 400 meters I needed a dayor two because I was a freaking
lineman, so I did it.
I'm like man, this is great.
So the first day I arrived atthe airport, they have junior
drill instructors come and meetyou there, right.

(37:56):
And, like I said, I've nevereven seen a tv show with marines
all I knew is my recruiter haddressed blues and women flocked
to him and I'm like there it is.
You know, that's awesome, that'sa squared away looking uniform.
I want that, and anyway.
So I get to the airport andthis young Hispanic drill
instructor comes up to me andstarts yelling at me in the

(38:19):
middle of a public terminalBecause I'm carrying the folder
that everybody knows, that theseguys know to look for, and he's
asking me these questions thatI don't have answers to, and so
I stopped him.
I was like, sir, with all duerespect, you don't have to yell
at me.
I can fucking hear you just fine, right well, he communicated
with my senior drill instructor,because from there to the bus,
to the bus to paris island, Iwas a project and every time he

(38:44):
yelled at me I'm like hey, I'dstart clapping.
Hey, is there anybody else herehave hearing problems?
I didn't know what to expect.
So when I got the platoon 2072golf company senior drill
instructor staff, Sergeant Scottgot a nice phone call from the
from the guy that received me,and I became a project.
Matter of fact, one of my drillinstructors follows me on

(39:04):
LinkedIn.
His name was staff sergeantmeeks, that's hilarious to watch
.
My transformation of being alittle turd right, of a citizen
slush bag, to what I became just13 weeks later was night and
day.
According to him, we all were,the whole platoon was, and we
had a lot of people that didn'tmake it.
We had a lot of people that gotrecycled.

(39:25):
But for that you for the marinecorps to be able to take
literally anything melting potin america and turn them into
what they turned us into.
Right, it's iconic man.
Yes, and I owe my entire careerto that.
Everything I can relate to inlife when it comes to discipline
or leadership is united statesmarine corps that's awesome it

(39:45):
was the enlisted side.
You know, I always tell people Iwanted to work for a living.
I told my father that he hungup on me a couple of times, but
yeah, it was one of the bestthings I've ever done.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
So I'm sorry.
I was going to say, tell meabout the sand fleas.
Like I think the sand fleas inParris Island are like iconic
right.
They are Like you don't havelike a real Paris Island
experience until you.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
And I don't think I caught victim to that too much.
Just like if I go outside withmy wife and we do yard work,
she'll come back in and it lookslike she has some flesh-eating
disease from mosquitoes and I'mnot getting bit.
So they also said they'reattracted to different blood
types, body types.
I got lucky with that.
Now, where I suffered from ishow pale I am, the red hair.

(40:27):
I was the guy in a pt shirt.
They had two big white stripeson the back and that's for the
navy corpsman to keep an eye onme, because I could fall out in
a run.
I could fall out in a hump.
You know, 60 pound weighted, uh, hump, and and thank god I
didn't.
The reason I didn't and I and Ihydrated is they told me if I
fell out I was going to getwhat's called the silver bullet.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Oh, yeah, Sure what's a silver bullet.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Well, they pull your pants down and they've got to
get a core temperature to findout if they're going to need an
ambulance.
It's basically an eight-inchdevice that gets inserted
rectally to get your coretemperature.
Brother, I did not pass out Ihydrated and ate like crazy and
never had an issue.
So I watched people go throughit and it did not look fun yeah,

(41:12):
the, the.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
I'm trying to remember the point that I was
going to bring up now and I justlost it I didn't mean to
interrupt no, no, you're goodwhat were we talking about?
Um, oh, I know what it is nowthe, the transformation.
So when we talk about thetransformation, the brainwashing
, I mean that's really, you know, resocialization sir.
Yes.
So the brainwashing side of themilitary, that is one of the

(41:38):
benefits in a good way.
There are some things that Ithink you know.
Looking at it from the adultside, like the grownup side of
me now, looking back, I'm like,oh, I see why.
I see why it's 18 year oldsthat they go after.
I understand the mechanismbehind having that military
machine run.
You got to have it because that18 to 25 mark is our brains

(42:01):
aren't fully developed yet thatyou know.
Prefrontal cortex is not doneand that's where they're using
that to mold us.
That's why it's harder forthese older military people when
they come in.
I was older I was 23, I think,when I came in and I had a
little bit of life experience.
Yeah, so when you went in andyou were the project, I went in

(42:23):
and I was like I'm staying underthe radar and I knew went in
and I was like I'm staying underthe radar and I knew and I knew
how and I did the whole entiretime and they the only reason I
may have told this story beforeon here.
I don't remember, but the onlyone time did I ever show up on
their radar and it's because youguys know my sense of humor.
We're standing in chow hallline waiting outside under the

(42:45):
girders there and I look up andI see a big old male pigeon and
two little female pigeons andthere's not enough room for them
to walk by each other, so theythink ping pong balls bouncing
off each other up there.
But in my view there was onlythese three pigeons.
There's nothing else to look at.
You're just staring at the backof somebody's head right and

(43:07):
lord help you if you move, orlook around, because the drill
instructors are constantlywatching.
So I'm sitting there and thismale pigeon sees two honeys and
he goes to town on both of them,just bouncing back and forth,
nailing them, wow.
And they're making noises andI'm like oh my.
God, I lost my shit.

(43:29):
I could not.
I mean, I'm quietly laughingbut my shoulders are bouncing.
Everything about me is probablystanding out.
I got tears rolling down myface because I couldn't keep my
shit together, because in myhead I'm like you're not
supposed to laugh.
You're not supposed to laugh.
You're not supposed to laugh.
That shit's funny.
I don't give a fuck.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (43:48):
So I just I'm losing my shit.
And then all of a sudden I feltit Pop Right on the neck A hat.
What's so goddamn funny?
And I'm like, oh shit, tell youwhat Levine.

(44:09):
And he'd talk like that, realslow and in pieces.
Tell you what, levine, you makeme laugh.
We'll call it square.
I don't laugh.
They all suffer.
He's talking about that.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
No pressure at all.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
He goes or you can accept your punishment.
I was like, fuck that, this isfunny.
This is funny.
I don't care who you are.
And this is the older person,18-year-old.
They're going to be like, ohshit, no way.
Me, I'm like, I'm going to takemy chances.
We're going to have to push you.
Think a little different asyou're older.
I'm like we're going to getrolled the dice.
They're going to mess with usanyway and, to be honest, we're

(44:42):
Probably three, four weeks in.
You know, Air Force BMT is notthat long anyway, it's like
eight weeks.
So I'm like all right fuck it,let's roll the dice.
I was like, sir, permission tomove freely.
And he's like, oh, by all means, show me this production.
I was like, sir, you see thosepigeons up there?
And he's like those pigeonsright there, not these ones over

(45:05):
here.
No, no, those pigeons rightthere, not these ones over here.
I was like, no, no, those onesright there.
So he's like, oh, yeah, I gotyou these ones right here.
You know he's playing the role.
And I was like, see the big onein the middle.
And he's like, yeah, yeah, whatdid he say?
The big papa-lookingmotherfucker.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, him.
He's like, yeah, what about him?

(45:38):
Seconds.
And now I'm fingers crossed,keep doing what she was doing.
And he doesn't get stage fright.
Yeah, exactly.
So, on cue, my boy just goes andjust grabs her up with his wing
, pulls her in and goes to townand I'm like, oh, thank you,
jesus.
And I'm like, all right, that'shalf the battle right there.
And he's looking up.
I can't see his face, all I cansee is the back of his hat
Right, and I see his shouldersbounce just a little Real quick
and he just walks away.
He doesn't say shit, he justwalks away.

(45:59):
I was like, oh shit, and so I'mnot in formation really.
I'm kind of in my spot still,but not really and not in
formation really.
I kind of in my spot still, butnot really, and so I'm looking
around and one of my guys goes.
You won get back in formationand shut up Funniest thing ever.
You didn't, you guys didn't getthrashed on nothing.
Nope, he owned it and he eventold me at the when we graduated

(46:19):
cause he wasn't my instructorhe waited for my class to
graduate to come in and meet mywife and my parents, because
they came in right and at mylocker.
You know he comes to your footlocker and stuff and he goes.
I just want to tell your familyyou did a great job.
He's like and your son is thefirst person he goes in my

(46:43):
almost four years of doing this.
It's ever broke me.
I said, and I'm I'm like in myhead like so much had happened.
I wasn't sure what he wasreferring to.
At that moment I was like Ibroke you.
When did I break you?
He goes the pigeons act likeyou don't fucking know.
And I was like, oh, I was likeyou did laugh.
He goes I lost my shit aroundthe corner.

(47:04):
He's like I ain't never seenanything like that.
He's like I was so mad but Icouldn't say shit.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
He's like he probably giggled each time he walked
past that part of the base.
Just because of that, Exactly.
Oh my God, the stuff.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
I mean, like I said, the programming, the whole
process of it.
Like you were saying, Irealized what was happening or I
realized what happened to me,and for a lot of it I'm thankful
because, like you said, theleadership and the discipline
that I have is because of thatRight.
And then the way that I look atmy life now as a cop I'm glad

(47:43):
it didn't stick on me so hardthat I didn't become a free
thinker.
The way that I am in policework Yep.
So when I'm looking at policework, this was a long way around
.
But as I'm looking at policework and I start thinking about
leadership and how many lightyears behind we are in
leadership compared to what weare in the military.

(48:03):
In the military, when we have aposition, you're training the
people underneath you to takeyour spot.
You should that's how that is,you should, You're always in.
The concept came from probablythe Marines and the Army back in
the day.
If you drop in the field, Ineed somebody that can step up,
that's ready to take my spot ifI go down.
We don't really carry that asmuch in the police realm.

(48:26):
I think the troopersopersyou're definitely more
paramilitary, so it's probablymore beholden in you guys to
have better leadership training.
I don't know I'm speaking outof my ass, but because you've
got that paramilitary but likein municipal policing deputies
and sheriffs together, I thinkwe lack in leadership and the
stuff that we're training.

(48:47):
Now, when I see it, I'm like Ilearned that as an airman basic
and all the way through it.
It doesn't stop.
You don't go do a leadershipclass.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Leadership is always taught and always continues
throughout your career and andand going into that and not to
to, to sidebar this so much.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Oh, it's sidebar.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I'm all about leadership, you know, bringing
the military into lawenforcement.
When I went to the basic policeofficer academy here in Texas,
I expected a little bit morediscipline coming from the
academy coordinators and theinstructors, kind of like what I
received in the military Right.
So the class voted me in ofSergeant of Arms.

(49:29):
Our coordinator broke her legin our first week of the 100th
BPOA at the Tarrant CountyPolice Academy and she elected
me.
You're going to be ourespecially out of the Marines.
You're going to be our physicalfitness person and I need you
to help me guide these people.

(49:50):
Uh, for, for discipline, out ofhere on the parade deck, we're
going to teach them how to Marchbasic right.
And we're going to we're goingto do Monday, wednesdays and
Fridays of a good two hours ofPT In the morning when we get
here.
Can you lead that?
Yes, yes, ma'am, I can.
Can I do it to where they'll besuccessful?
You're a marine.
I was never one.

(50:11):
I'm sure you know a little bitabout physical fitness.
Let's do it you.
You go ahead and do it.
First day I'm out there, we andthis is basic right from
stretching get everybody readyand now we're going to go on a
little truffle shuffle.
Well, there's a lake out thereby that and I didn't know you
weren't supposed to like runaround the lake.
They likes to kind of composedit to the parking lot or a
little running track area thatwe had.
But I saw this big beautifullake and let's go run there I

(50:32):
was in my cadence and we weregoing and I'm teaching and I
only had one or two guys andgals that were in the military
and they were.
They were okay, it'd been someyears since they've been in.
I had some older guys in thereand they were doing good and I
always look back.
We're running next to 820,which is a big highway here
Going towards the lake.
There's a big kind of a dam andwe're running across the top of

(50:53):
that dam.
I started looking back and thisis a slow truffle shuffle run.
Okay, half of my class is stillcoming around the corner.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Wow falling out.

Speaker 3 (51:03):
We're a quarter to a half mile back and I'm like so I
teach and we have to run incircles because we're not going
to leave somebody behind rightwagon wheel and then get them to
run around, run around the lakeand do the different things and
, and, um, about 90 percent ofmy class went to the coordinator
once I left that day and saidthat is pure military.
We didn't sign up for themilitary.

(51:23):
I don't know what that is, butall we have to do is run a mile
and a half for our test.
This is ridiculous, but sheallowed me.
I dialed it back some, but sheallowed me to keep that going
through at the academy and tothis day, I have people from my
class that still structure theirlifestyles better based on what
they learned from me.
So that was a huge, you know, ahuge thing to me and that.
But I only learned it in themarine.

(51:44):
I didn't create it.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
Yeah, when you think about those things, those like
those gems that you take fromthat whole Academy experience.
I stay with you like for therest of your life, Like you know
, I mean quite frankly.
Like you know, like I fold myunderwear to this day, Like they
taught me back in 1992.
Like, if you go in my bag, inmy car, there's a can of Kiwi in
my, in my, in the bag that Itravel with because of you know,

(52:13):
when I break out my shoes, ifthey're not right, like you know
.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
You know, 30 plus years later I got a can of kiwi
in there.
I'm going to square thosethings away and that's that
instilled discipline that a verysmall percentage of our united
states gets to experience yeah,and I will forever be grateful
for what I went through, and Iknow you will be yeah, you will
as well.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
I mean, it's something that carries you on.
The sad part is I'm still in,so I get to see sad, no, no.
Well, it's sad because theydon't have to shine their boots
anymore, they don't have to irontheir uniform, they don't.
There's so many things thatthey don't have to do.
The traditions and stuff thatwe knew are gone right.
So to me that's sad.
Why is it sad?

(52:44):
Not because I think you shouldhave to do what I had to do
because it sucked and we didn'twant to do it.
It's because of the disciplinebehind it Doing the hard thing
in small doses versus having tohave to fix some sort of huge
mess because you neglected itfor so long.

(53:05):
That's kind of what I picked upfrom learning how to make your
bed and do all that stuff.
And there is a lot to be saidfor the discipline to make your
bed every morning Right and not,and not in the way it gets my
day going yeah, versus when Idon't do it Cause I I noticed
I'm like I didn't really Ididn't make the bed.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
It's that I noticed.
I didn't really I didn't makethe bed.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
That structure, yeah, life that feels comfortable,
yes, the true building blocks ofwhat takes you further into,
whatever you do, even if you youget out of the Marine Corps and
go work for Walmart, thatstructure that you learned right
is going to be there forwhatever you do.
And holy cow, you knoweverything that I learned
because I still do it when Iwork for a municipal agency in
the Dallas Fort Worth area.
We had the shineable boots thatwe, that we wore, and it was
almost every night while I was alaw enforcement officer there,

(53:53):
I would spit shine them.
Oh God yeah.
Just that discipline that Ilearned from the Marine Corps.
And, like you're saying, withthe change and I know we all
experienced it in thisprofession when these new
generations come in and I knowthis goes on for years Everybody
says the previous betterprevious and I'm sure you know
my father's generation, yourfather, everybody's was better,
we're less, and I get that.

(54:13):
But when you actually get tophysically see it in your
profession or somebody and I'llgive you an example and we can
move on is somebody now thatcomes to the police Academy and
I don't care what state it's in,and they put all that money
into that person.
They invest all that time andthey were motivated.
They may have gottenmeritoriously promoted if they
were in the military or theywere looked upon highly in

(54:36):
police academy and maybe got aspecial unit early off because
how much they applied their self.
And as soon as they get intosomething they don't like they
quit wow, it's I'm talkingthrowing in the towel, they're
done.
It doesn't equate in their headof what all was invested into
them and I've watched people getall the way through an fto

(54:56):
program, get released and getout and get sent to a call that
they were mad because they haveto do pay we call, doing paper
on it right, writing a report,and it just didn't fall within
their thought process of theycould have what we called zero
three or just call noted thiscall right.
Why did they have to do it.
You know what?
This is not for me.
I'm out and they can just likequit that day and drop all their

(55:18):
stuff on the desk and walk, andto me it's.
That's a part of your lifestyleonce you've gone that far oh
yeah watch people just toss it.
that was tough for a pill for meto swallow and it's happening
every day.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
I know Like we have a saying.
You know sometimes you'll seeevery now and again you'll see a
little TFL, like on a tattoo orembroidered on somebody's shirt
or something.
You know we call it trooper forlife.
You know it's a lifestyle.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
I see it in society today that the the level of
respect for each other and I'mnot calling out any specific
group of people at all on this,it's just overall generationally
the level of respect has gonefor each other has gone way down
Right, and we see it in lawenforcement especially.
But then there's a lot ofeducation that goes out that
we're seeing from the lawenforcement side where I'm like,

(56:11):
well, we're screwing up too.
This person got mad and feltdisrespected because you just
trampled their right.
You're demanding ID, right, youdon't have a right to their ID
Right.
And and now you're upset, setand your ego's getting checked a

(56:35):
little bit because they theydid something that people didn't
used to do, right, they said no, challenge.
They challenged you back andsaid, no, I'm not giving you my
id.
You go back to the early 80s,70s.
Nobody said that, right, youplayed ball.
But now people, because of theinternet, people have a easy way
to gain access to education andthey're learning their rights.
They may focus on one right.
They may focus okay, I have aFirst Amendment, right to record

(56:56):
.
I'm awesome, that's cool.
But that's where this, I thinkthat's where this.
You know, when we talk aboutdisrespect towards law
enforcement.
I'm like no, I don't really seethat part of standing up for
your rights as disrespect.
I tell people I like the factthat you make your protest known
.
Hey, I don't agree with this.
I don't think you have a rightto my ID.

(57:17):
I'm going to do it under thethreat of arrest if I don't.
Right.
And get that clarification.
If I don't give you my ID, youtell me you're going to arrest
me, right?
Yes, I am Okay.
Well then, here's my ID.
Right Now, I've got all theammo I need for court.
Yep, so I think this level of,like I said, disrespect has went

(57:37):
up because we justgenerationally, it just keeps
degrading.
I don't know why.
I can't put one thing on it.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah, I think a lot of times, though, like it's all
about people's skill, right, andlike you meet people out on the
street and it's just how youapproach them, how you what you
say, how you say it.
Sometimes so much moreimportant about how you say
something, yeah, will eitherelevate or diffuse a tense
situation, right, and so, like Iso I'm from the era in policing
where, you know, there were noin-car cameras, there were no

(58:06):
body, no body worn cameras, andlike you could have a real
one-on-one conversation withsomebody on the side of the road
, like and sometimes like atwo-minute tongue, lashing about
their driving habits and, uh,you know, hey, have good, you
know, you know, don't do this,then get out of the way.
No summons, no warning,whatever, just, you know, a
quick critique of their drivingskill skill had a whole lot more

(58:28):
impact than handing them threesummonses, definitely.

Speaker 3 (58:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:31):
And so like the ability to, like you know,
really kind of point outsomebody's lack of driving skill
very, very specifically, Ithink would go a long way, and I
think we've kind of lost alittle of that.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
I agree.
I think you're right.
It's crazy to me with all thevideos that we see of police
screwing up with citizensscrewing up.
I think that's where, with thepodcast, one of the things we're
trying to do is this isn't amutually exclusive issue.
It isn't just citizens screwingup, it isn't just police
screwing up.
We're both screwing up, on bothsides.

(59:02):
But if we're not willing tocome to the table and say okay
and take a little ownership inwhat we're talking about, right,
we're never going to fix anyissues.
That we have right and I blamethis one specifically on social
media is the ability to saythings anonymously without any
repercussions.
True, and you see thatoccasionally.

(59:22):
You see some of these youtubersgo out there, throw their mouth
around like they do on theinternet and they pay the price.
Right, it's socked in the mouth, right Shoot.
The one dude got shot, went outthere, started pressing up on a
guy and got told him get back.
This was like in a mall I don'tknow if you guys remember that
video and the guy backed him up,told him get away from him and

(59:43):
the YouTuber just kept pressingtowards him, acting stupid, and
the guy just pulled out a littlesnub nose and shot him once in
the stomach and got out of thereand he got self-defense.
He got the claim forself-defense.
When you watch the video you'relike, okay, I see why and I
blame social media.
I think that kids, they blameMortal Kombat when we were kids

(01:00:05):
for us being violent or NinjaTurtles, but I do think there's
a direct correlation in socialskills with social media and not
having to cure your borednessand some of the stuff that we've
been talking about.
I think they all correlate andI think the military helped us a
lot.
I think it can help youngpeople today, especially if they

(01:00:26):
don't have the structure athome, and us as law enforcement.
I think oftentimes when we dealwith a problem teenager, a
problem, you know, young adultthere's a common factor and it's
there's no structure at thehome.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
I'll say like I don't have very many regrets in my
life.
I've had an amazing career.
I've gotten to work with sometruly, truly amazing people.
Like the one thing I neverreally got to do was I never got
to serve in the military.
If I have a, if I have a regret, it's probably that, um, I
looked at, uh, going into themilitary right out of high
school and, 18 years old, had agirlfriend who quickly talked me

(01:01:04):
out of going to the military.
I wish I had just kind ofpushed through and done it,
because I think it would havebeen a good experience for me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Well, I had to tell this to my own father.
I told him because that's oneof his biggest regrets that he
never served, and I said I cantell you from a person that's
done both.
I think I feel like I've servedmore as a cop than I had ever
served and probably ever wouldhave served as a security forces
member.
No knock to security forces,it's just in what we do.

(01:01:36):
We keep the base secure.
Some of us go out and, you know, sweep some sort of paths and
stuff like that.
Yeah, you, there are odds thatyou could get you know into some
sort of combat, if that's, ifthat's how you view service, if
that's how you view that youserved.
But I've never felt like I'veserved people more than as a cop

(01:01:57):
, a street cop especially andI've got some good wins as a
detective.
I've got some great things thatI've helped out with as a
sergeant and I'll probably saythat I feel like I've I've
served a lot more now as aSergeant as well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Now you've got a lot more responsibility.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Right, and I got the ability to teach and I've got
the ability to make a impact onthe community you know for
either, whether whether it isthrough complaints or it is
through an enforcement action,because I don't have to do the
work they're doing right.
I get to sit back, supervisebut fill in the gaps that I see
right, and filling in those gapsas part of the fun of being a

(01:02:35):
supervisor absolutely, and Ihear a lot of people say what
you just said.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
I've, I've been blessed to to meet so many
people around the globe, andwhen guys like you say that I've
got to step back and say, butlook how you present yourself,
look at the accomplishments thatyou've done in life.
That means a lot to me that youobviously were raised correctly.
It speaks a lot of being raisedand for what the State Trooper

(01:03:02):
Academy did for you, because ina sense you may not be serving
in the US military but you'restill serving the people and
when you get to go, do that andgo through an outstanding
program that brought you theleadership taught you about
ethics teaches you how to teachothers, and then when, the way
you do and how you presentyourself.
So I don't think you lostanything by not serving, but you
just got to serve in anothercapacity.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Thank you, I appreciate it.
It's important, so it capacity.
Thank you, I appreciate that'simportant, so it's.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
You know, people can say and I totally understand
what you say, and that's almostwhy I so quickly jumped to the
marines is like gosh, I'm notprepared for college, I better
do something.
So I don't look like some wiseguy out here and I need to
freaking.
Uh, straighten myself up.
You square yourself awayabsolutely, and that's the way I
did it.
But no, I think the way youryour life unfolded is definitely
not a negative thank you andlike.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And I look at, like you know, and for me as a state
trooper, like one of the thingsthat makes me so proud to be a
state trooper New Jersey statetrooper is like I look at how
the New Jersey state policestill functions today.
Like if you go on New Jerseystate police social media you'll
see Colonel Pat Callahan doinga run with a, an academy class
that's about to graduate.
You know he's the leader of theorganization.

(01:04:08):
He's out there doing PT withthem on the beach and he's
setting that example.
It's an awesome example ofleadership right Leadership by
example and like.
That makes me really proud tosee my organization still
focused in that way.

Speaker 1 (01:04:20):
Yeah, Now you did Intel.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
I did.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Before we go from Intel, because you probably had
another range that you did atthe troopers.
So yeah, so you did intel.
For how long?

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
wow, um so, yeah, um so.
Five years, essentially fiveyears in uniform on the road.
My last assignment on the roadwas the new jersey turnpike.
Have you ever driven on ajersey turnpike?
no it's a city on wheels,brother I've heard yeah, and so
like, literally in some parts,like the new jersey turnpike is
16 lanes across holy cow, yeah,and so like it's just it's like

(01:04:56):
a whole city on wheels.
And it just never ceased toamaze me, like you're doing, you
know you're patrolling thehighways of new jersey, but like
it never ceased to amaze Likehow many people were coming out
there just to commit crime oryou know, like like just every
day was like an absoluteadventure.
You never knew who you're goingto run into, whether that's
people moving drugs or guns ormoney up and down the turnpike,

(01:05:19):
or it's people who come outthere and now they're in a
service area.
Now there's a Donnybrook in theservice area.
So you was, it was a busy, busyassignment area so you was.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
It was a busy, busy assignment.
Okay, some of these folksaren't from the north.
I know what you're talkingabout.
Play a lot of hockey growing upright.
Tell them what a donny brook is.
Oh dear god, donny brook islike what's?

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
it's a.
It's a public fight it's likeyou know, it's a fight you don't
have to be invited to.
It's like a fight anybody canjoin, right?
What's it all?
What's that old saying from thequiet man?
Is this a private fight, or canI get in?
And so like, yeah, so likeyou're, everybody's just able to
jump in.
So yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
So if you're a fan of letter Kenny, anybody out there
letter Kenny will.
We'll teach you what aDonnybrook is as well, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
So, yeah, good times.
But I mean, like um, when I,when I, when I worked on a
turnpike, like I mean it wasbusy, busy, deal with people how
to communicate like you knowhow to, how to understand very
quickly, like this person isjust a normal person trying to
get to work every day, maybethey went a little too fast,

(01:06:15):
right, hey, do me a favor slowdown a little bit.
This is a person that, if I'mnot really careful, this person
could take my life and so youget you very quickly.
You learn how to talk to people,how to assess your situations
very quickly, which helps youactually be a better detective.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
Yes.
Now what I want to know is,because Intel has the potential
for some of the best cases.
Oh, absolutely, if you guys arelistening, intel to me is the
top dog.
It's actually where I'm at now.
I'm in a part of tacticalintelligence, like that's what I
do with the real time crimecenter stuff.

(01:06:49):
You are a part of all of thebig things that happen.
Yeah, I mean all the majorcases.
You're a part of that in someform or fashion.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
So in that top victory wow, that's really
really, really hard, but um, letme take a stab most interesting
top victory, so all right so Ithink the one that I'm probably
most proud of is because of theway it came about is, um, we did
a pretty big case on a guy bythe name of eddie.

(01:07:18):
Well, they went by eddie theirishman, right.
Um, eddie fisher.
Actually, you can look them uponline.
You'll'll.
You'll find information aboutEddie Fisher online.
Um, I'm really proud of thatinvestigation in that whole case
.
So, um, eddie Fisher was, uh,lived in Staten Island.
He was what we refer to as likean earner, like could make
money.

(01:07:39):
Um, through you know he, he,whether it be loan sharking,
whether it be gambling, whetherit be whatever, like he, you
know he, could make money fororganized crime.
Now, he's not.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
He's not Italian.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
He doesn't have the roots that go all the way back
to Italy, so he can't be likelike a made man, can't be a made
guy like in an organized crimefamily, but like the information
we had is going back a ways.
Now you think about, like PaulCastellano, no-transcript, and

(01:08:29):
we're talking about this guy andhe's like oh yeah, like an
interesting story about this guy, like he ran into somebody who
allegedly owed him some money.
They both go down an alley andnow a short time later, eddie
comes out and the guy's dead inthe alley.
Right, eddie Fisher's story islike oh yeah, he saw me, he knew

(01:08:50):
that he owed me money.
He ran into the alley, took outhis gun and shot himself in the
head.
Well, you look at the picture,like shot him, like right, like
the bullet holes, like righthere, straight head.
But you know, they never theynever indicted him.
So I guess maybe that's whathappened.
But like, yeah, he was aninteresting cat.
So everybody was interested inthis particular guy because,

(01:09:10):
like he you know he was, um, hewas an earner for the gambino
crime family.
The way that case started rightwas, literally, we got a memo
from the local prosecutor'soffice.
They had talked to this guy'sguy, eddie, and eddie had like
said, like hey, there's thiswhole, you know, organized crime
scheme going on, like inMonmouth County, and he's

(01:09:33):
explaining how, like there'sgambling and there's loan
sharking and there's peopleinvolved, there's people who are
potentially at risk becausethey're not paying their loan
shark debts.
And you know now they're, youknow they're at risk of being
injured, they're beingthreatened.
And so, um, me and my partnerat the time, bobby Collins, like
you know, we get the memo, weread it, we're like this is not
a lot here, but this is reallyinteresting.

(01:09:54):
Let's, let's dig into this alittle bit more.
And so we do a follow upinterview and so, like, we get a
little more information and nowwe start to verify something
again back then, like this isall manual, like as you're
debriefing a potential sourceand they're telling you things
about people.
It's so hard to find outinformation who's Eddie?
Who's this other guy, kenny?
Like it's really really hard,very manual processes, systems,

(01:10:17):
just not very effective.
So we do our first coupleinterviews and then, like, sure
enough, we identify a guy who'sreally he's actually in, really
he's in big trouble, and I'll aguy who's really he's he's
actually in, really he's in,he's in big trouble, and I'll
just call him.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I'll call him ishmael .
What is?

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
that right?
Yeah, call me ishmael.
Yeah, so I'll call him ishmael.
So ishmael, all right, he was abad, bad gambler.
Like.
A bad gambler like and if you'veever met anybody who has was
really, like, addicted togambling, it's I mean, it's a
very, very sad disease, right,if you're, if you're addicted to
gambling, like, it's reallyreally really hard, um, and I
feel sorry for those peoplebecause, like, they just can't

(01:10:53):
help themselves and like, and ifyou're a bad gambler and you
bet on things like football,like you could have an awesome
weekend and you could be up 20grand and then two weekends
later, you can be down 30, 40,50 grand and in your mind, like
you're, you have a sickness.
Like gambling is a sickness ifyou're addicted to it and like
in your mind, like the only waythat you can get that money back

(01:11:16):
and you can get square again isto keep on gambling.
And so, like now you're doingwhatever you can do to keep you
know for not to not get shut off, like you want to make sure
that, like you can still placebets on a weekend and you're
trying to catch up the wholetime.
It's so, it's cyclical, it's sosad, it's really, it's really a

(01:11:37):
disease.
So Ishmael is really, really,really in the hole.
Like he is in the hole and we'restarting to hear that, like
there's a person who's comingover from New York who is going
to now, like he's veryfrustrated with him.
He's very frustrated that he'snot making his.
You know, he's not making hispayments.
And I don't know for youraudience, like you know, I don't
know how they didn't know how,like loan shark payments work,
like so like you borrow moneyfor a loan shark and in his case
of Ishmael's case, like heborrowed money so he could pay

(01:12:00):
off enough of his gambling debtso he could keep gambling, right
, crazy as it is.
And now, like, whatever heborrowed, he's got to pay
interest every week, andtypically between three and four
points, so maybe like 208%interest every week on the money
that he borrowed until he cangive him back a lump sum of the

(01:12:20):
money he borrowed, right.
So you know, say, like you know, if he's borrowing like $10,000
, like he's got to pay everyweek on a $10,000 until he can
give him that money back, so itquickly, quickly escalates, so
you miss payments, that getstacked onto your lump sum and so
like, next thing, you knowthey're literally paying
thousands and thousands andthousands of dollars every week

(01:12:42):
and they're never getting anyheadway.
So that's how, like a lot oforganized crime organizations,
make a lot of money is throughgambling and loan sharking.
Okay, clear, clear.
Cool.
So, um, our guy Ishmael, likehe's, he's, like he's very, very
he's in a bad spot, um, but heknows he's got to, he's got to
make some payments.

(01:13:02):
So we, we meet Ishmael, we havea conversation and, like
everybody, like you know, we gethim in the back of the van.
We have a conversation Like weknow everything that's going on,
like we've done our homework,we know who he owes money to,
what's.
You know what's going to happento him Lies, lies.
He.
Just all he wants to do is hewants to lie enough so he can
get out of the van and be on hismerry.
That dodge, that bullet, Allright, let him.

(01:13:27):
So, now, let him go.
Two weeks later we're like, oh,it's getting really serious.
Now we're talking to somebodyelse who's, like Ishmael's, in
real trouble.
Now, right, so now, two weekslater, we go by and I used to
have like one of those Dodgecaravans.
It was like greatest undercovervehicle ever, like everybody
wanted everybody wanted, likethe Chrysler 300 or like the
Challenger Dodge caravan.

(01:13:48):
Baby, nobody ever made me as acop and I used to take out the
middle seat.
So, like you had the frontseats in the back seat.
So like, literally like we'dscoop you know, go up on a, you
know, pull up to him on the sideof the road, open the open the
door, get in and take him for alittle ride.
And so, like, two weeks laterwe go back.
You lied to me about this, youlied to me about that.
You know like, and you'velearned about interview and

(01:14:08):
interrogation Like, when youconfront people, like you know
you tell them like you theyfigure out, you you actually do
know the truth.
That's when they'll finally.
And like he leans forward, he'slike if I don't pay him $2,000
by Thursday.
They're going to break my legs.
Okay.
Now we're starting to have aconversation, yeah Right.
And so now we start workingwith Ishmael and like now we're
gonna make him payments andwe're recording his

(01:14:29):
conversations, and now we'recollecting evidence, we're doing
all of these things and now,like it's starting to blossom,
starting to bloom, and now we'restarting to understand it's not
just him, right, it's all ofthese people.
And then a particular, andthey're like in this particular
investigation, all of them werecar dealers.
I don't know what it was aboutthat time, but it like seemed
like everybody that was kind ofin this little network who was,

(01:14:52):
you know, a loan shark victim,they were all car dealers.
And so like, oh, you think I'mbad, this guy's like he's really
bad shape.
And I remember there was thislike there was this one female
car dealer who was kind of likeshe had been like the go between
for all these people.
She was, you know, picking uppayments for folks and bringing
them over to the loan shark, andshe knew everybody.
And like she kept moving, likeit just seemed like she was like

(01:15:15):
a ghost, like I'd show up at ahouse she had just been at and
like I'm picking through trashRight, and like now I got a bill
or I got something that says Iwould just so I I kept missing
her.
Like I'm going from house tohouse to house for like weeks
and months trying to find thisone, this one female Right, and
then finally, finally we trackedher down, right Again, like

(01:15:36):
very, very manual process backthen Track her down, grab her
and interview her.
She gives up, like the wholething.
And so now from again, like froma memo of somebody saying this
whole thing is going on, good,solid police work, hard, rolling
up the sleeves, getting out,talking to people we now have

(01:15:56):
like a whole network of peoplewho are victims, that now we're
recording conversations and now,like we're to the point where,
like we can do like a high levelconspiracy case on our two
defendants over in Staten Islandand I'll never remember, I'll
never forget, forget, like weset up like a rip.
So we're going to bring our guyover.
Kenny's going to come over.
He thinks he's going to get aloan shark payment from one of
our you know cooperators and hepulls into the service area

(01:16:20):
there on the Garden StateParkway it's a beautiful spring
day, he's got the LincolnContinental with the sunroof
open, you know and he pulls upand he meets our guy and now
we're going to take it down,right.
So we run over you know, placehim under arrest, put him in a
troop car.
Now somebody's got to drive hiscar from the service area to

(01:16:40):
the station on the parkway, youknow 10 or 15-minute drive, and
I'm like, oh, I got the car,I'll drive it down.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
And what's he?

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
driving.
I got a Lincoln Cont down.
What's he driving?
Like a lincoln, continental,okay, all decked out.
He's got like this, you know,he's got like the sunroof open.
It's a beautiful spring day,get keys.
I get in, I fire it up.
Right.
I got the tony the tony bennettplaying on the radio as soon as
I turn the key on and now I amjust cruising down the parkway
for about 10 minutes feelinglike a king taking his car down

(01:17:07):
there to have it be impounded.
So nice, yeah, yeah so it endedup being like a really, really
successful case.
Like a number of agencies havebeen trying to, you know, put a
case against Eddie Fisher for along, long time, we ended up
getting like a second degreeconspiracy case against him.
So what I think I'm like mostproud about there is, like from
just a little fragmentary pieceof information, hard work,

(01:17:31):
diligence, perseverance, justworking the network, figuring
out who's connected to who.
That's how that whole case cametogether.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Did you have a big cork board with yarn going from
person to person?
Get out of my head, Eric Levine.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
Yeah, literally stacks and stacks of paper, cic
printouts, like DMV printouts,like I got a folder.
It's like the size of fivephone books stacked on each
other.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
Yeah, I tell people, man, a beat book, you know,
officers don't know nothingabout a beat book anymore.
And then using the old, youknow connection system with the
yarn.
Yeah.
That stuff that we don't haveto.
We don't have to do anymorebecause we can keep it all right
here.

Speaker 3 (01:18:15):
Yeah, then what it took to transfer all that paper
data that we had into anarrative and all the
supplements as the investigationwent forward.
Just like Eric said, I mean theavailability now that detectives
have and officers have now inthis tech world today, it makes
me always wonder.
Working for a large techcompany myself, now is a week in

(01:18:36):
the life of no internet, noconnectivity.
Where do our investigations goright with these young
detectives out there?
Where can they go to square one?
Can we go back to the old daysfor a week?
Yeah, because Because we've gotyou know, think about it.
I mean just because they werenever probably introduced to
that.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
Yeah, they didn't need to.
No, it's never been a problem.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
So back then I mean this is going back a few years
so, like you know, I went intointelligence instruction in 1998
.
Back then we didn't have theinternet but we had Danny
Cortese and so, like DannyCortese was like one of the
greatest mentors in my my statepolice career.
Love him Like he was a Sergeantat the time.
And Danny, like I feel sofortunate that when I came out

(01:19:17):
of uniform and I became adetective, I got to work with
Danny because, like he taught melike the basics of being a good
cop and the fundamentals thatlike really helped me, you know,
be successful.
And he used to be like he hadthat, like he was from Jersey
city, he had that, he had thatJersey city.
Like Lenny, like a good copcan't always know the answer,
but a good cop is going to knowwho to call and when he makes

(01:19:41):
the call, the person on theother end is going to pick up
the phone Cause he's happy tohear from him.
He's like your reputation iseverything treated like gold.
And so, like I feel sofortunate to have the
opportunity to work with peoplelike you know Eddie Quirk, mark
Doyle, danny, danny, like, justlike they taught me how to be a

(01:20:04):
good detective and how to be agood cop.
And again, like we didn't havethe internet but like I could
come back from a surveillanceand I've taken a bunch of
pictures of some guys hangingout by a social club and Danny
was one of those people whocould be like all right, that's
Charlie Stango, that's FrankTango, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Like he could just remember everybody, everybody he
knew everybody, he had a.

Speaker 3 (01:20:22):
Rolodex in his head yeah, that's crazy.
And he knew their criminalhistories and he knew their
associations.
He knew the associations.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
He knew why they were sitting there on the corner,
like if those two guys are onthe corner they don't like each
other.
If they're there together,they're doing something, there's
some kind of business going onbecause they can't stand each
other.

Speaker 3 (01:20:37):
He was the manual guy that created the relevance map.
Oh, absolutely.
He could do everything on apiece of paper that now we can
do with a couple clicks.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
Yeah, yeah, he was amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
Yeah, it does make me wonder what cops would do if
they didn't have tech.
Like, how many of them couldfigure it out?
I'm sure a lot of them could.
I think a lot understand howthe tech's putting the pieces
together for them.
But the question I have is,like, will you be able to do it
when it's crunch time?

(01:21:08):
Like, will you be able to goout there and scour?

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
like oh yeah go door-to-door.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
That that's a big thing.
Door-to-door is a big one likeI remember doing that and it
would be so valuable.
Even when the tech was there,I'd still do it, I'd still go
out, and they're like what doyou?
What are you going out for?
I'm like you never know who sawsomething.
Well, we checked for ringdoorbells none of them had any.
I'm like you you never know whosaw something.
Well, we checked for ringdoorbells None of them had any.
I'm like you got to talk topeople.
You know people see stuff.

(01:21:34):
Well, if it ain't on video, itdoesn't happen.
That's another thing that wegot to start worrying about in
policing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
So like, and here's like, this is the thing in
Albuquerque that just paid suchdividends for us, like you know,
body-worn camera, all differentperspectives on body-worn
camera.
I'll give you like one examplewhere it just it really made a
lot of sense for us.
And so, like you know, beingable to integrate body-worn
camera and being able to tiethat to an investigation or a

(01:22:00):
case, so like and I don't knowhow every department is, so I
know, like a lot of times, likewe'd go out to like a critical
incident, like a shooting orsomebody got stabbed, right, and
the officers are out there likethey're doing the best job that
they can.
Like they're going in, they'retalking to four or five people,
right, and they're trying theirbest to record everything that
they can in a sub report of youknow, four or five interviews of

(01:22:23):
people in the neighborhood,neighborhood canvas.
They can't get it all.
Like they do their best.
Or the person that they'retalking to says a name or a
nickname that doesn't reallymake sense to the you know, the
reporting officer and maybe itdoesn't make it into the report.
But now, like you got the bodyworn camera, yeah, right now the
analyst goes back and like theylisten to that.
They listen to the body worncamera from that sup report and

(01:22:43):
they hear like a name or anickname or something that makes
a whole lot more sense to thatyou know violent crime analyst
or that gang analyst or whoever.
It makes a whole lot more senseto that you know violent crime
analyst or that gang analyst orwhoever.
It makes a whole lot more senseto them than the reporting
officer.
Now we're out of the gate, nowwe're up and running with an
investigative league.
Oh, they sprayed the housebecause pookie's mad or whatever
you know.
And now, like we haven't, youknow, now, because we're able to
get that information in, likewe can make maximum benefit of

(01:23:05):
it yep, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
All righty brother.
I want to move on from Inteldays.
I like the good stories.
Those are always fun.

Speaker 2 (01:23:14):
You want to hear about the 300-pound guy that
disappeared.
Well, now that we've put it thatway, so you know, my friends at
the FBI and I was veryfortunate, Like I was assigned
to the FBI for eight and a halfyears working on a JTTF, but
before that when I was workingorganized crime.
You know the running joke islike we had a case on a guy in
Bonanno Capo in again MonmouthCounty, new Jersey, frankie

(01:23:36):
Coppa.
Right, I'll tell a little bitabout the case.
But, like you know, the thingabout the case is like, as we're
getting ready to take it down,like Frankie Coppa just
disappears, right, he's nowhereto be found.
Like we've got all of hisphones like tapped and then all
of a sudden, like nobody canfind Frankie.
Nobody's heard from Frankie,nobody has seen Frankie, nobody

(01:23:56):
knows where Frankie is.
And then, lo and behold, wefind out that Frankie is now in
witness protection.
So the running joke there wasonly the feds could make a 300
pound man disappear.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
I was thinking he was swimming with the fishes.
But he made it.
He lived Good for him.
Now you did Intel and then youjumped over to Albuquerque I
want to move over to Albuquerque.
So you did your, you did yourcareer and you decided 25 years
wasn't enough.

Speaker 2 (01:24:26):
Punishment so, so, like again, like a lot of people
are ages like nine 11s theevent that changed my life and
my career forever.
I get literally.
I was working the case onFrankie Copa on September 10th
and then next day, nine 11happens.
I went to the JTTF and, um, youknow, I was there, I, I stayed
for eight and a half years.
I had a tremendous, tremendous,tremendous opportunities

(01:24:47):
working on JTTF.
Got to work with theintelligence community Again,
one of my regrets never beingpart of the US military.
I got to spend a little timeworking with JSOC.
I got to work with a groupcalled Sijasodafay in
Afghanistan.
So I'm really, really proud ofthat work, did that for about
eight and a half years and waslike, came away from that
experience, I learned how to useinformation much more

(01:25:10):
effectively and like that was.
That was really a greatlearning experience, you know,
working with all those greatpeople.
And I did my last eight and ahalf years, uh, running the
fusion center in New Jersey.
So I ran the regionaloperations intelligence center
for about eight years.
Got to build two real timecrime centers when I was there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
It's pretty cool.
Can you explain to people whata fusion center is and then what
the difference between fusionand real time?

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
Oh, absolutely so, like fusion center.
There's a fusion center networkacross the country and like
there's this saying that's youknow it's a little cliche but we
still kind of say it's likeyou've seen one fusion center.
You've seen one fusion centerand that's just simply to say
that, like, fusion centers areconfigurable to an individual
state or areas needs.
So you can have statewidefusion centers in our case, New

(01:25:50):
Jersey, regional operationsintelligence center service, the
entire state of New Jersey.
You could have specific areafusion centers.
I think there's a there's afusion center specific to, like
Fort Worth.
You know Dallas, Fort Wortharea.
There's a statewide fusioncenter in Texas.
But really, like, fusion centersexist to help us better
understand crime trends, Likewhat are the things we need to
be prepared for, Whether that isa violent crime trend, a

(01:26:12):
property crime trend, it couldbe.
You know our case, like weworked really closely with our
partners in emergency management.
It could be like a specialevent.
How do we manage a specialevent?
I'm a Super Bowl 48 survivor.
I ran the Intel subcommitteefor Super Bowl 48.
I call that the year of my life.
I'm never getting back back.
But so fusion centers reallykind of exist to help you make
better decisions.
And then, like when you take alook at like, I think, very

(01:26:35):
strategic, like they can providereally great support to
investigations, but reallyunderstanding where crime is
trending and threats aretrending now you take a look at
like a real-time crime centerwell, before we move farther
what do you got?

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
with fusion centers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butyou're talking to places like
Homeland FBI, all of thesethree-letter agencies,
multi-agency that's who you'reconnecting to through fusion,
usually as a post-operation,post-investigation here's intel

(01:27:06):
type of situation.

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
So ours was a little different.
Okay of situation, so ours wasa little different.
Okay, right, and so 26.
By the time I left in 2018, 26partner agencies, including fbi,
dhs, dhs, ina, uh, federal airmarshals, like I literally had
their personnel assigned to andembedded in my fusion center
right yeah, so like literally,like you could go down the hall
in my fusion center and likeyou'd have a whole area where

(01:27:29):
that was a specific area for,like, our federal partners to be
at, where they had access totheir information, so like we
could share very information,share information, very.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
That's how mine runs.
Yeah, yeah, yeah and so like.

Speaker 2 (01:27:40):
In the whole goal there is to like bring in all
the partners to help you do yourjob a whole lot better.
Very, really successful conceptawesome, yeah, okay, cool now
real-time crime centers yeah,great and they're awesome as
well, just in a slightlydifferent way.
Right, and so like, when youthink about like real time crime
centers, like we're fusioncenters, tend to be a little
more strategic right andproviding information on like

(01:28:01):
trends and things or maybe somevery specific case support,
right, as events are happeningin your jurisdiction, like like
a major protest that now isblocked traffic, you need to
respond to that very quickly.
A priority one call for service, a shooting, a critical
incident, whatever it is.
Your real-time crime center, ifyou construct them right, can

(01:28:24):
be really well positioned toprovide those responding
officers the information theyneed to do their job better.
And you think about some likethe more simple things, just the
basic things, but like can bereally high impact.
Right, if I'm going to go out toa residence right that we've
been to five times before NowI'm an officer who's heading out
to that residence becausethere's somebody in distress.

(01:28:44):
Right, they've put in a callfor service.
Maybe it's somebody's beinginjured at that residence.
We've been there five timesbefore.
Wouldn't it be nice to knowthat, like, the last five times
we were there, we encountered aperson who really maybe has like
behavioral health issues, andnow I'm like there's a way to
respond to that effectively andthere's a way to like use, you
know, specialized training maybeit was a CIT or a coast person

(01:29:05):
to like diffuse that situationmuch more effectively, that
situation much more effectively.
Or maybe I'm going to go to alocation and the last two times
we were there somebody squirtedout the back right and now we
have to go find them and nowwe're doing a neighborhood
search for a person.
Like real-time crime centerscan be like incredibly helpful
in providing that vitalinformation to responding
officers so they can do theirjobs much more effectively.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
Right that's one of the ways I like to put it to
people is that the real-timecrime center's main function is
to support officers on theground in real time and not with
your basic dispatcherinformation.
That's not what we're referringto.
This is not a knock ondispatchers by any means, but
dispatchers have a certain rolewith certain information that
they get out there.
With real-time crime centers,it's more detailed information

(01:29:53):
through the eyes of lawenforcement, whether that be hey
, this car that's running fromyou, I'm going to in real time,
run that plate, put it throughour LPR system, see where that
car is trending, where does itgo the most?
And then be able to say, oh,he's probably going to his baby

(01:30:13):
mama's house, which is over here, because that's where we've
seen this car go a lot and he'sheaded that direction.
So being able to jump ahead andget that information to those
officers on the ground in realtime.
And this is where I get inarguments with other departments
, like, yeah, we got a real-timecrime center.
I'm like, oh, you do that's do.
That's awesome man.
Like, what are you guys doing?
They're like oh, you know, wejust kind of we help the
detectives out.

(01:30:34):
You know when they got casesand stuff like that, or you know
a call will happen and we'lllook up some information to see
if we can't, you know, backtracklater on and identify the
person.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
I'm like you're a past-time crime center.

Speaker 1 (01:30:54):
It can be both.
It can be both, but that's whatI'm saying.
That's the difference between areal, real-time crime center is
they're active.
They are proactive.
In my opinion, they areproactively if there is not an
officer requesting their help.
They're looking at the CADinformation and they're saying
all right, here's a call thatjust popped out, how can I help?

(01:31:14):
All right, who's the caller?
Who's the suspect name?
Let me see what information Ican find out on them.
Suspect description.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Yeah, let me jam on out.

Speaker 1 (01:31:22):
Yeah, they are actively looking before
anybody's even assigned thatcall.
And then the moment that callis assigned, there's probably
already information on the sheetfrom the real-time crime center
that says here's a picture ofyour possible suspect, here's a
picture of your caller, here'sthe vehicles that are registered
to that location, and just gotall this information for that

(01:31:43):
officer so that he doesn't haveto worry about it.
And that's just one aspect thatwe're talking about 100%.

Speaker 3 (01:31:49):
And the first time I got to see a real-time crime
center in operation was out inthe West, out in Arizona Mesa
Old.

Speaker 1 (01:31:56):
Scottsdale.

Speaker 2 (01:31:57):
Scottsdale ah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:59):
Scottsdale's got it going on.
One person or two in Scottsdale.

Speaker 3 (01:32:01):
With this job I go out there quite a bit and we
were in there for 15 minutes andthe gentleman that's running
the scene is basicallyexplaining.
You may see something you maynot, and I believe that specific
crime center that we were inwere a civilian run staff, right
, which is different, a littlebit different, you know I've
seen them both areas.
So but what happened was is Ihad my, my team in there and and

(01:32:24):
one of our resellerorganizations in there, and we
were kind of just bearingwitness to what goes on and,
with my law enforcementexperience, watching these
professionals work, when a callcame out and basically a tier
one, priority one call came out.
Um, it was a shooting.
Okay, that's what it came innot many details, but they were
able to pin down an addresswithin 11 minutes of the first

(01:32:46):
officer arriving on scene.
Drones were on scene in seconds.
Right, I mean to watch thisthing launch and to see
everything in live, the realtime, happening in front of me,
wishing that I would have hadthis my entire law enforcement
career, right.
But 11 minutes after that firstpatrol officer on scene, they
already rolled an acid and wehad a bear cat on scene with an
entire team.
And I was blown away becausethe last agency that I worked at

(01:33:09):
it took me an hour and a halfto get another deputy to me on a
stolen car in 2024.
So I'm watching this Now.
I came from a larger agency soI was used to the municipality
stuff.
But then going to the countysetting in the middle of nowhere
, we call it BFE out theretrying to work with no radio
signals.
And then going out there andwatching all these assets and

(01:33:31):
teams come together and how fastit was to diffuse that
situation.
I guarantee you, in 10 years,how is a large city going to
operate without a real-timecrime scene and be successful in
law enforcement?
We've evolved so much just inthe past six years.
Looking back at the history ofthese things of how much it's
helped yes, it's amazing in thepast six years.

Speaker 1 (01:33:49):
Looking back at the history of these things of how
much it's helped yes, it'samazing, yep and I think as long
as we keep doing our duediligence to keep the checks and
balances to make sure policedon't overstep, because it's a
very powerful tool oh yeah sothat's one of the things that
I'm constantly.
That's why I get myself soinvolved, um with this side of
the houses.
I want to make sure that whenwe have a fun toy and it's

(01:34:12):
helping keep people safe, thatwe don't overstep and you're not
checking in on your ex's newboyfriend and doing crap like
that.
And the one thing to help keeppeople's worries at bay that I
can tell you from my experienceis every single thing is logged.
There is not a step that can betaken without that person being

(01:34:34):
tracked for logging, and it hasto be that way.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
I'll do you one better.
Like and I always recommend topeople who are standing up a
real-time crime center is likehave an auditing function right.
Take the time as a supervisorto go back and look at a set
number of calls, pull them byrandom or pull them by, you know
, call, type and go and do justlike a good, healthy review.
One it's a great accountabilitymeasure, right.
Like you know, you can point toa process that you have that

(01:34:58):
says I proactively go in reviewthe work that goes on in my
real-time crime center.
I get a better sense for, likeis it in compliant with policy?
Is it compliant with bestpractice?
So I have a process that I domyself to make sure I I'm in
compliance with policy.
But two, when you identify gaps,you identify things that could
have been, that were done wrongor could have been done better.
Great material for your nextround of training that you have

(01:35:22):
to do or you should do.
You know, great opportunity tosay like, look, what we did in
this situation is awesome, weneed to do more of this.
Or like, in what we did in thissituation, we could have done
better and here's how we couldhave done it.
So, like you can save yourselfso much pain and you could be
such a more effective, you knowreal-time crime center.
Just like still a littleself-audit.

Speaker 3 (01:35:41):
Yeah yeah, absolutely so, with three current and
former law enforcement officersthat we have in here from all
parts of the country.
You know eric working in adifferent state as well before
he came here, yeah, you being inthe northeast and then then
down in new mexico, you're goingto see different versions of
his two is the mental healthcare, and I'm coming back to oh
yeah crime center on this isthey handle mental health for

(01:36:04):
peace officers or lawenforcement differently around
the country sometimes better,sometimes worse, and my 21 years
in law enforcement I watched itgo from absolutely horrible to
it's the non-spoken.
You don't ask for the help andby golly you keep it up here.
Yeah, you're okay, go home andtalk to your wife about it,
you're fine, you're fine.
Compress, compress, compress.

(01:36:25):
To where it's slowly.
It's never been perfect.
I've never seen it perfect.
They're trying to get better insome instances, thank God.
But going from what it was inthe Northeast or where it is
down here in Texas, or out inNew Mexico, arizona, wherever we
have to think about this newtechnology coming out in the
real-time crime centers, whatthese officers and civilians are

(01:36:46):
witnessing to bear witness,even though it's on a computer
screen, is are we going to lookat this in five years and make
sure that we have steps in placeand I know a lot of them do and
they're already identifying,targeting that.
but we got to make sure thatthat is there because, even
though they're not on scene perse, but some of these crime
centers now are able to hear the911 call, they're living the

(01:37:08):
entire call virtually in avirtual center and it's just I
want to make sure that that allof our states are going to start
taking care of them just likethey would.
The officer on the scene thatneeds that help, because they're
sometimes the people in realtime crime center are getting
exposed more to it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:24):
Well, there's.
There's just such a high tempoof it.
It's call after call, aftercall after call.
You're, you're a hundredpercent right.
Like, and we need to like bethinking through, like, what are
our people exposed to day afterday, eight, 10, 12 hours a day,
right, day after day?
Like, where do they, where'sthe relief valve for them?
Right, how do they do we have,do we have a program in place
where they feel comfortablesaying like I just did the last

(01:37:45):
three calls in the last twohours and I'm just like I need
to, I need to go take a knee fora minute, like I need to go get
a cup of coffee, I need, I justneed to like take a little
break, like we need to make surethat we're we're giving those
people the opportunity to eitherself-report or, you know, feel
like comfortable and like sayinglike hey, I just need to take a
little bit of a break.

Speaker 3 (01:38:01):
It's a little different watching a movie, a
violent movie, versus watchingreal life unfold in front of you
, either on the scene, virtuallyeye in the sky, whatever it is,
and we just got to make surethat we take care of that.
And I love just speaking onmental health, so I like to
bring that in.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
And.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
I love that you have the same feelings on that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:18):
We think about it like you know, in a typical
shift if, like, an RTCC ishandling, let's say, five
priority one calls that arereally, you know, that are
really quite you know, difficult, like you know difficult,
you've got officers at all thosecalls and they're all handling
their each critical incident.
Your real-time crime center ishandling all of them.
The individual officers are atmaybe one or maybe two, but your

(01:38:40):
RTCC people are seeing them allyeah, and now we can tap into
their body cameras and watchthat live.

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
So now you've got first-person view that could for
those listening.
Real-time crime centers can bemade up of law enforcement, can
be made up of civilian, can bemade what we call hybrid, which
is all all of the above, andthey all have the view that they
can watch through your body cam, through your dash cam, through

(01:39:06):
Air One, through a drone.
So it's a little different thandispatch, which also hears
tragedies over the phone.
They hear it, right, but nowwe're adding the element of
visual into that.
So you combine those two things.
It amplifies it.
It's not, it's not just hearingit now, it's now, it's you're

(01:39:26):
seeing, and I could even arguethat hearing it sometimes may be
worse, because if you're justhearing it now, your even argue
that hearing it sometimes may beworse, because if you're just
hearing it now, your imaginationtakes over.
Right so if you have a worse ofimagination, who knows?

Speaker 3 (01:39:37):
what?
And the dispatcher stuff hitsreally home to me.
My wife was a dispatcher foryears, right, and she was the
dispatch supervisor for a large,large city here for a long time
and she did what's which a lotof agencies do and that's that's
the EMD emergency medicaldispatch.
So not only is she hearing thestruggle going on on the other
end, right now she's tabbingthrough an EMD book and giving

(01:40:01):
life-saving instructions.
Wow.
And then for everyone thatdoesn't make it you know what
I'm saying.
They have a tier ofresponsibility of what happened
there, the vicarious liability,what they have to take home,
right, and for my wife cominghome to speak to her police
officer husband about and we hada good relationship exchange
and it helped us throughout allthose years to be able to
decompress with each other.

(01:40:22):
But then you have to look atthe.
Are the agencies providing thatas well?
It's just as important for theones that are listening, the
auditory of it, it's soimportant, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:40:31):
I got a good thing I just want to talk about here for
a second, like on officerwellness, because, like again,
like that, like we're talkingabout like all the technology
and being able to pull this in,like being exposed to it.
I'm gonna go the other way onthis one just a second.
So, like we were talking withan agency about like their
process for officer wellness,right, and so that at the like
their process was, they had aset like specific calls that

(01:40:53):
they would be screening forthrough their CAD and it'd be
just be like okay, for if wehave this particular type of
call and it's the high impactcalls that you would think of
like a stabbing, a shooting,whatever, like every day they'd
come in in the morning, theywould go through their CAD and
they'd say, which is awesome, Imean, that's really what you

(01:41:14):
want to do, you want to beproactive.
And so we kind of took that tothe next step and we're like,
hey, that's an awesome idea,like let's make sure we're
reaching out to the officer andkind of checking in, seeing
we're okay, you're going off CADnotes and like I'm sure your
wife speaks CAD, right, so sheunderstands CAD notes, but not
everybody understands CAD notesand not everything about the
call is in the CAD notes.
So before you pick up that phoneand you call the officer to see

(01:41:36):
how they're doing, well,there's a piece of body-worn
camera that's probably tied tothat CAD call.
How about I just go back and Ipull that piece of body-worn
camera and I take a quick lookat that.
Let's see how that incidentunfolded from the officer's eyes
.
So when I do that proactiveoutreach to an officer to make
sure they're okay, I canreference certain things that I

(01:41:57):
saw through the officer's eyes.
I think it's a really good wayto identify areas where we need
to be proactive and then armingthose people with the right
information so they can have,like a really impactful outreach
.

Speaker 3 (01:42:03):
What do you guys think about that?
I think absolutely, and thenand then, to capitalize on that,
the ripple effect.
Yeah.
The guys and gals are being theones that are being proactive
and going out.
Yeah, they have just now bearwitness to everything.
Yeah.
And they're the ones that aregoing out.
And so years go by.
Is that captain their boss?
Are they coming at them?

(01:42:23):
Hey, you just did this for sixmonths.
You took care of all these guysand gals, from dispatch to the
crime center to the officers onthe street.
How the hell are you doing?
Yeah because you you may havenot been on scene, but you just
bear witness to everythingthrough what a jury would see or
whatnot.
You're gonna be exposed to that, yeah so we got to make I mean
it's that ripple effect, rightso?

Speaker 2 (01:42:40):
it's it's it's cumulative.
Well, I mean, sometimes itcould be acute, but a lot of
times it's just cumulative.

Speaker 1 (01:42:44):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Cumulative trauma, cumulative,cumulative trauma, there we go.

Speaker 3 (01:42:51):
That is a thing and I can rabbit hole all day on that
and I apologize for taking usdown all those channels.
No, no, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
I mean, you're hitting all the topics I love to
talk about officer wellnessleadership like these are
technology.
These have been core aspects ofmy career.

Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
Yeah, and educational note, if those were wondering,
when we're saying CAD notes,we're talking about what an
officer sees on his computerscreen from dispatch or from
other officers or whatever.
When they're in their carthey'll see on their computer
screen what the call details are.
And those call details theydon't look like normal English
that you and I would text backand forth to each other.

(01:43:26):
It is, you know, cp, states,but it'll say the letters cp,
and they're saying they'remeaning complainant states, and
states is sts, doesn't saystates.
So you start to learn cad talkas you say it's its own language
.
Yeah, it is, it's its ownlanguage and you just kind of
figure it out as you go and Idon't really think there's

(01:43:47):
anybody that teaches it, nope, Ijust think that's how it's
always been and you learn it asyou go usually your fdo that
says hey, dumbass, this is whatthat means, right there.

Speaker 3 (01:43:55):
Yeah, that's how you learn it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:56):
It's a combination of radio codes right, and it's a
combination of abbreviationswherever they can save time
while they're typing to get thecad notes in because, like a
dispatcher is multitasking bigtime yeah all day long for their
entire shift, so they're tryingto figure out ways to get
information in quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:44:10):
Yeah, so like if you see something that says BMF,
like two people or whatever,like that's not bad motherfucker
.
That's not what that means.

Speaker 2 (01:44:22):
That's black, male and female, and then where you
have AF that doesn't mean Unlessyou're watching Pulp Fiction
and you're pulling the walletout.

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
Yes, yeah, and if you see af it doesn't stand for,
you know what is it as fuck, orwhatever they say whatever
they're saying out there, mexicoas fuck.
Yeah, yeah it's um, it meansroyale, yeah, royale with cheese
.
Yeah, so it's.
It's funny when you get so usedto that language and then you
kind of reflect back and you'relike how did I learn that?

Speaker 3 (01:44:48):
nobody taught me that , yeah and how far does it stick
?
And I, I can speak on this.
You know I don't know your,your spouse is your your better
half on what she did, but, likewhen I got here to eric's house,
our code at the time when weworked together, when she worked
at our dispatch center, was I'm23 on the scene, I'm 23, eric's
.

Speaker 2 (01:45:07):
Yeah, 10-4 yeah that's I mean, that's how we're
texting each other, becausewe're so used to doing it.
56.
Yep, 56.
And we down here with a 54.

Speaker 3 (01:45:16):
We're going to go meet somewhere.

Speaker 1 (01:45:17):
Exactly.
It's different all over thecountry, but it's funny how long
it stays with you.
Yep, I'm a plain language guy.
I try not to use a whole lot ofcodes, but there, you know, you
hear somebody over there.
Oh, he 12'd out, oh dang, yeah,word.
Yeah, that's mine.
I say that all the time.
Word All right.
I get people all the time.
Let me get this word, yeah.

(01:45:38):
So if you're wondering whatwe're talking about when I text
people, like if I'm confirming,if I understand, if I'm happy,
word yeah, you got a rudge.
Yeah, you had a rudge.
Yeah, so I'll say word.
That's just.
I don't know.
I've had that habit for a longtime.

Speaker 3 (01:45:56):
Stick on code for one second.
I'm just going to give you mymunicipality and then go into
BFE working in the county.

Speaker 2 (01:46:01):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:46:02):
I came from the municipality down in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area and, justlike Eric was stating, if you
heard signal 12 on the radio, itmeans the heart's not beating
Right.
Don't know how, but that's yoursignal 12 over the radio.
Was you're going to a deceasedbody?
More than likely yeah, and thenretire from here, take off
about eight months, get backinto the line of work at a much

(01:46:24):
lower hourly rate and I'm out inthe middle of nowhere, Right,
and I'm hearing on the radio asI'm learning because my FTOing
from having all the experiencedown here to going up there.
I had three days of training,about two hours a day, to get me
used to the county area.
Right Station familiarizationand I kept hearing I'll be out
here signal 12, and I finallylook at the guy that I'm

(01:46:45):
training with.
That has a lot less years ofexperience but a wealth of
knowledge for what I'm learningup there, sure, and I'm like how
many signal 12s do y'all have?
He's like at least two pershift and I'm like you gotta be
kidding me two per shift and I'mlike, well, break that down to
me.

Speaker 4 (01:46:59):
He's like we're allowed two lunch breaks so up
there is lunch breaks, and youknow.

Speaker 3 (01:47:04):
So I heard some anyway, so put two and two
together.
There were not that many deadbodies.

Speaker 1 (01:47:08):
Yeah, that would be different.
It's funny that the codes varyfrom spot to spot.

Speaker 2 (01:47:15):
32, that's a person with a leg 23, 25.
I'm on a 30 with a 14.

Speaker 3 (01:47:24):
We used to have to say we're out on a 37 or a 38, a
suspicious person, that type ofthing.
I'm going to run a 28, which ispretty nationally known, I
think the 28s are 27, 28, 27, 29.

Speaker 1 (01:47:37):
That's what it is, so like then for me.

Speaker 2 (01:47:39):
like you know, I'm in New Jersey state police and we
have our own codes.
Now I go to Albuquerque, right?
Oh, it's a complete differentway.

Speaker 1 (01:47:47):
It took me a while to understand.
Now, did you guys use militaryphonetics in the trooper world,
or did you use All the time.
Okay, so, yankees, you're usingthose.
Then when you went to,Albuquerque did they use the
police ones Very?

Speaker 2 (01:48:00):
different, yeah, very different.
On midnights we were playingfull metal jacket over on the
car-to-car.
We were all about it, pal.

Speaker 3 (01:48:07):
In.

Speaker 2 (01:48:07):
Albuquerque.
It's just a very differentscenario.

Speaker 3 (01:48:09):
I'm sure your dispatchers are like did I
detect a Niner in that?

Speaker 1 (01:48:13):
Every officer that I worked with in the field as a
patrolman.
They knew if I started callingout military phonetics they
needed to get there because Ihad hit a stress level.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
And.

Speaker 1 (01:48:26):
I may not sound like it.
Sometimes I did.

Speaker 3 (01:48:30):
Sometimes I definitely sounded like it.
You reverted back to your firsttraining.

Speaker 1 (01:48:32):
But yeah, they hear me start going military
phonetics.
They knew that my stress levelhad went up and I was reverting
back, so they would be show mein route.

Speaker 3 (01:48:41):
I was like I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:48:44):
He started to take off faster and whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
Well, you learn the people on your squad.

Speaker 1 (01:48:49):
Yes, absolutely Now, lenny, whatever.
But um, well, you learn thepeople on your squad.
Yes, absolutely now, lenny.
What do you got?
You did, your did your trooperthing.
You went over to albuquerque,you did your uh nerdy tech thing
for real-time crime centers andfusion centers, yeah, and you
did something that is very hardfor a lot of police to do you
transitioned.
Sure, not medicallytransitioned, but you

(01:49:14):
transitioned your career field.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:17):
You went private sector.

Speaker 2 (01:49:18):
I did.

Speaker 1 (01:49:19):
Okay, never thought I would do it.
Explain that whole process.
Give hope to those that aregetting near the end.
Yeah, and let me know what itis you're doing now.

Speaker 2 (01:49:31):
So awesome, Happy to do it.
Um, it really kind of.
I got to back up just a coupleof steps, though, if that's okay
.

Speaker 1 (01:49:36):
Okay, back it up.

Speaker 2 (01:49:39):
Like like I had retired from the New Jersey
state police and I was justliving my best life.
I had a little consulting firmon the side for a while, like
day at work was literallysitting on the beach with a
laptop and a cell phone, andyeah, that's when I was a
consultant.
And then I go to New Mexico onvacation, all right, and I'm out
there with my family having agrand old time and like, I'm
fishing up at this place calledShuri Ponds, great place to fish
, and I'm talking to this guywho's fishing next to me and

(01:50:01):
we're just kind of chit chat andI'm telling him, yeah, I'm
retired.
And he goes like, hey, youshould call Albuquerque PD,
cause they're looking forsomebody that has your skills.
And to this day I have no ideahow that man you know, I don't,
I have no idea who it was butlike, literally I go back to the
cabin at night and I go backand I see a look at Indeed and

(01:50:21):
I'm like, oh, albuquerque policedepartment, real-time crime
center.
And like I showed to my wifeand she's like, wow has
everything but your picture.
It's all the things you've donein your career.
And so, sure enough, I come backfrom vacation.
Like I'm like, all right, I'mgoing to, I'm going to follow up
on this.
And like file an application,put in a resume.
And like I laugh, like I saylike an hour later it's probably
it may have been 90 minutes,but like 90 minutes later, like

(01:50:45):
my phone rings and it's this guy, mark Velarde.
And Mark Velarde, he's like hey, like he starts conversation
Like are you Lenny Norbetsky?
I'm like, yeah, he's like.
He's like dude, are you forreal?
And I started laughing.
He goes I'm like what are youtalking about?
He goes like I've been lookingfor somebody with your
experience and skills for likesix months.
We haven't been able to findsomebody.
Would you really come to NewMexico?
And so he's like, well, this isthe craziest thing.

(01:51:06):
Like me and my deputy chief aregoing to be in New York in two
weeks.
Would you come meet us whenwe're in New York?
I'm like it's an hour away.
Sure, my job interview was in ahotel bar.
Like literally 10 minutes intomy job interview, like I'm

(01:51:27):
showing the chief like thepictures of the fish I'd caught
on vacation, and he's like, oh,bro, it makes sense.
Now, now I know why you want tocome to New Mexico.
And it's like next thing I knowI'm in the Albuquerque police
department running a real timecrime center.
It was just it was meant tohappen.
Like I wasn't looking for it, Iwasn't out there hunting for it,
it kind of came my way and Ijust right place, right time.

(01:51:49):
I think I'm supposed to bethere.
All the doors open up the nextthing, you know, I'm running a
real-time crime center.
I walk in the door at theAlbuquerque police department
real-time crime center and likeleaving New Jersey with like a
lot of challenges around datathat I was never able never
really able to solve.
Like I walk in the door atAlbuquerque different agency,
right State police to majormetropolitan police departments

(01:52:10):
same exact problem 10 or 15different systems that they had
purchased over the years thatjust didn't connect.
Everything was siloed Like thechief would ask a question.
Next thing, you know, ananalyst is scrambling for a day
and a half to try to pullinformation.
To answer the chief's questionJust didn't make any sense
whatsoever and so I reached outto a buddy of mine.

(01:52:31):
I got reconnected with a guynamed Matt Melton who was
working for AWS at the time.
He now works for us atPeregrine.
Call Matt.
And I'm like, hey, like it's amess here.
I really need help.
Like their data has got somereal challenges.
We were doing the best we canwith what we had, but like we
could definitely be doing better.
And I remember to this day likehe connects me up and he's like
you really should talk to thesepeople from Peregrine.

(01:52:52):
They're you know, at the timethey were, they were newer, but
he's like they have somethingthat's a little bit different.
A little they're on the ball.
So I get on a call with thisguy, the CEO the CEO, nick Noon,
who's CEO today and like Nickand I get on a call and he
really wants to do and he usedhe used very specific terms that
resonated with me.

(01:53:13):
He's like technology providerscould be doing a better job to
solve, to help law enforcementagencies.
Like that was me, like I feltlike I needed, I needed better
technology.
And then like he turns on theplatform and like he's showing
me like what he's built out in acouple agencies that he was
working with and he's likeexplaining the vision for, for

(01:53:33):
what we can do now and wherewe're going and how we're doing
all this and what we're pullingtogether to help law enforcement
agencies do their jobs better.
And for you guys, I know youcan relate.
At that moment I was struckwith the realization that I had
finally found the person whounderstood what I was trying to
do in law enforcement and hadbuilt the platform to help me do

(01:53:53):
it.
Like, and from that day, like Ihave been a fan I mean I have
been a fan I ended up.
I ended up being Peregrine'sthird customer at Albuquerque
police department.
Um, and we just used it withtremendous results and like we
were able to do things in ourdepartment we were never to do
before.
Like now, like in the story Itell is like you know, the chief

(01:54:14):
would be in the tunnel goingover to the mayor's office to
have a meeting and I'd get likea frantic phone call and he'd be
like Lenny, are AutoBergs up in, beat 434?
I'm like, no hold on, chief.
And like, literally, I crackout my laptop and like no chief,
they're down.
He's like you're sure they'redown.
Yeah, no, chief, the autoburgsare down and beat 434.
He's like bet your paycheck onit.
I'm like I think I just did,chief.

(01:54:35):
And he's like thanks.
I'm like, so, like you know,like literally in seconds, I
could provide him theinformation he need to go have a
meeting or talk to somebody,like wherever he was going.
But like I was able to providehim that information so quickly,
so accurately, that I had faithand confidence in Like I would
use the platform to help you.
I use the platform every day,20 times a day, to solve
problems.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
So one of the things that for people trying to
understand one I talk fast,peregrine is where you
transitions to thank you workingfor them, and the fix, if I'm
hearing you correctly, is thatone of the things that it fixed
for you was taking all theseprograms that, let's face it,

(01:55:16):
each department may have somesort of siloed control over.
And what I mean by that forpeople listening, is your crime
analyst has this one piece oftech that they got ordered for
them because it helps them intheir job, of tech that they got
ordered for them because ithelps them in their job, but
simultaneously that would helpother officers in their position
but they don't use it and theydon't have the ability to get

(01:55:36):
access to it.
Then you have your gang unitthat has GangNet, which is
another program that gang canuse but nobody else has access
to.
That would help other peoplethroughout the department,
including your crime analyst.
So I'm giving you I'm paintingyou guys, a picture where all
these different siloed programsthat work, specific for these
specialized units, peregrine wasable to take that and say oh,

(01:56:00):
we're not going to take awayyour stuff, we're going to take
all the stuff that you currentlyhave and we're going to put it
into a bowl for you to pull outof, for everybody to use, not
just these specialized units,because y'all work for the same
team so y'all need to be able topull the same information.
So it's pulling all theinformation that you already had
.
It's just consolidating.

Speaker 2 (01:56:21):
Yeah, so it's doing a little more than consolidating.

Speaker 1 (01:56:23):
Yes, this is the dumbed down version.
I'm trying for what you justexplained.
We haven't even gone down therabbit hole of what you got
going on today, so I'm justtrying with how quickly you just
said that I'm slowing it down,the jersey comes out, yeah.
I'm slowing it down, I'm tryingto put it together for guys
like Banning to understand.

Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
Yeah, I mean like what we really do.
I mean like just at our core,what we do is we help an agency
get better use of their datathan they can today, like when
they have all of these differentsilos of information, like and
the information is not connectedor integrated or modeled.
I won't go, I won't go reallytactical, but like, if you have
data that you use in your agency, we can help you get more value

(01:57:06):
out of that data.

Speaker 1 (01:57:06):
Yes, and one of the aspects that I like about it is
and I say this all the time,this is not a you know,
peregrine just happens to be oneof our sponsors this year and
proud sponsor, proud sponsor.
I love it and because me beforethey ever were a sponsor, we're
talking years before they everwere a sponsor with what we got
going on, I brag about Peregrineall the time.

(01:57:28):
I'm like this is going to bethe next best thing in law
enforcement and I truly believedit.
I believe it now, but Ibelieved it then and I would
always say I was like it turnsthe shittiest detective into
Sherlock Holmes and that's justkind of a thing that I coined
because to me that's really whatit was doing and seeing how it
could take what would take meweeks to put together, sometimes

(01:57:51):
months, sometimes years,sometimes it would never get put
together because Banning's adetective and Lenny's a
detective, and Banning works onthe west side, lenny works on
the east side with me and we'vegot related cases.
We have no clue because nothingin the system talks to each
other unless we talked about acase.
Like man, I just got the fifthrooftop AC unit theft this month

(01:58:15):
, right, and you're like oh shit, I've got a bunch of those, and
it only happened to be watercooler.
Talk for us.
Meanwhile, banny's got the samething going on on his side of
town.
That's never going to happen,right?
So we could have aggregated allthose cases together, but that
system that common MO, commonsuspect it would have taken a
long time.
Things like Peregrine are ableto seconds.

(01:58:37):
Let you know that they're allconnected.
And then it doesn't just tellyou that, hey, you may have some
cases connected, it tells youBanning's cases are connected
and that Lenny's cases areconnected.
So to me that's the shit.
And that Lenny's cases areconnected, so to me that's the
shit.
So you go into this privatesector and now you are with a

(01:58:58):
company that's solving all thethings that you wish you could
have solved quick, fast and in ahurry as an officer.
Right.
Now the way I look at it, lenny,you're still serving.

Speaker 2 (01:59:07):
I had finally made the decision to leave law
enforcement, which is like oneof the hardest decisions that I
ever had to make in my life.
Everybody who's in lawenforcement they understand you
get into the profession becauseyou love it, so it's a hard
profession to leave For me.
I got to the point where Ireally saw the value in what we

(01:59:29):
were doing.
I saw how transformational itwas for Albuquerque police
department.
I saw that like there was apotential to help my fellow
brothers and sisters in lawenforcement do their jobs more
effectively, right, get home atthe end of their shift safely
Like that's the kind of impactthat it could have for, you know
, any department out there.
I'm like I got to get this inthe hands of as many cops as I

(01:59:51):
can, and so I made the harddecision in the fall of 2021 to
step away from AlbuquerquePolice Department and join the
Peregrine team full time.
I was the first former lawenforcement retired law
enforcement member to come tothe team.
We are now eight deep, sothere's eight.
You know there's eight of usnow who are from, you know,

(02:00:11):
prior law enforcement on theteam where I run what's called
the public safety executive team.
All right, so we're.
We're all former law enforcementwho have solved problems into,
you know, using technology,trying to.
You know we work with agenciesout there to understand what
their problems are and literallyto just say like, yeah, that's
a problem we don't solve.
Like you know, hey, if you needsomebody that does like social

(02:00:35):
media scraping, that's awesome.
I understand that capability.
That's really not what we do.
Right, we can enhance a socialmedia scrape, but we don't do
social media scraping.
But, like, if you're trying tomake better sense of the data
that you already own, if you'retrying to figure out where to
deploy your resources, yourofficers, at the right places at
the right time, if you want topull in all of your camera feeds
and your LPR feeds and your AVLand your body warrant and all
your data into one place to makeit more operationally useful,

(02:00:57):
like, we're the company for you.
And so the public safety teamworks with law enforcement
agencies to understand whattheir problems are and explain
to them how we could potentiallyhelp them.

Speaker 1 (02:01:06):
I love it.
I love it so in that, with thatprogram and its ability because
it is that a good way todescribe it Is it's a program.

Speaker 2 (02:01:17):
As far as like the public safety executive.

Speaker 1 (02:01:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .

Speaker 2 (02:01:19):
So we're, we're, yeah , we're, we're, we're a team
that supports many elementsthroughout the company, but like
our whole goal there is to help.
Like we do that translationpiece that's so important.
Like we help.
One of the coolest things thatI love about my job right Is
like I get once a week I get toget on a call with some super,
super smart engineering folks,both like back in engineering,

(02:01:40):
front end engineering.
I get to get on a call withthem every Friday and talk about
like what cops need right, andlike explain to them like hey,
out in the field, they need thisor they need that or it does
this now and now it needs to dosomething different.
Like I get to translate to themlike what an officer needs in
the field and then they go andbuild it, and they don't build
it in 18 months, they build itlike.

(02:02:01):
They build it like in a daysometimes.
Like like I think one of thecoolest things that ever
happened was I was, I was at acustomer site and I'm working
with Serena, who's a crimeanalyst, and she's an awesome
crime analyst, and she's likeshe was explaining that like the
platform on that time, wouldyou know, like she wanted to
draw two polygons and you had tosearch each polygon one at a
time and she wanted to search.

(02:02:21):
She wanted to draw two polygons,search them both at the same
time and it was a capabilitythat just didn't exist at the
time.
So like literally, here, serena, talk to the engineer, put the
engineer on the phone withSerena, they have a conversation
to hands him the phone back andhe's like, yeah, that's
actually not too bad, like we'll, we'll get to that as soon as
we can.
And like like the next day,like they made the change right
now and like they made thechange to the software.

(02:02:41):
So now the capability wouldexist like in 24 hours, right,
push to change out.
Now Serena has got that update,she's got that new capability.
But then, like we take that samecapability that we just built
for Serena and we share it witheverybody and because we have
the ability to make changes tothe platform, make enhancements,
like you know, build newcapabilities for our customers,

(02:03:02):
like the platform is like aliving, breathing organism, like
it constantly changes andevolves and new capabilities
come in.
Because we listen to what copsand analysts and our customers
need and we're able to quicklyturn around those requests for
them and get them back out tothe field, and that's why the
platform continues to grow incapability.
I know I'm getting a littletechnical, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:03:23):
So, in that, one of the things I like to do is put
confidence behind products thatare for public service.
Yeah, because one of the firstthings people start worrying
about is a big brother.
Yeah.
So, in that confidence building, can you get into a little bit
of the checks and balances thatthey have?
Sure, and then, after you dothat, I want your favorite

(02:03:46):
success story because of whatyou're doing All right, cool,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:03:51):
And so, like you know , the safeguards that you know
privacy and civil liberties are,like those are the core.
Like you know you have to, youhave to protect people's civil
rights, you have to protectprivacy.
And so, like, those are notthings that you can bolt on.
Like you can't build a softwareplatform and then say, oh, we
got to add all the securitymeasures in, like those

(02:04:11):
capabilities to do auditing,right, those capabilities to do
granular permission control,like they're built into the core
of the platform.
So the platform was actuallyconstructed with those concerns
in mind and like, and we areconstantly testing, we're
constantly updating thosecapabilities.
We're listening to ourcustomers, we're addressing
things that they see veryquickly and easily, Because we

(02:04:31):
know that, like, if you don'thave those capabilities, we're
listening to our customers.
We're addressing things thatthey see very quickly and easily
, because we know that, like, ifyou don't have those privacy,
you don't have those privacycapabilities enabled, like you
can't be successful.
And so, like, we take that very,very seriously.
And then, like, as far assuccess stories, wow, holy cow,
it just really kind of dependson like.
It really kind of depends on,like you know, we solve a lot of

(02:04:51):
problems for law enforcementagencies.
So like we have a you know wework very closely with Fairfax
County Police Department.
They're awesome customers, welove working with them and it
seems like every week they'retalking to us about a scenario
where they're in their real-timecrime center and maybe it's an
abduction, I think.
Actually the one that, like oneof the recent ones that just was
, I thought it was reallyimpactful for us is like they

(02:05:13):
had had a number of complaintsabout somebody that you know, a
person who was harassingchildren, and they couldn't
really kind of get a handle onit and they had like a sketch
and then like so what theydidn't realize was they had a
number of different cases comein on the same suspect in
different locations, but somehowthey had never gotten connected
through like their RMS system.

(02:05:35):
And then they very quickly, oncethey deployed Peregrine, they
were very quickly able to see,oh my God, like I have a case
over here and I have a case overhere and like it's the same
potential suspect, and we wereable to link those cases
together.
They identified a suspect, theyapprehended and charged the
suspect and so now we've got amuch safer community.
Like those are the things thatget me out of bed and put me on

(02:05:55):
a plane every week because, likeI, want to get this into hands
of fellow law enforcement sothey can do their jobs better.

Speaker 1 (02:06:02):
Dude I get so pumped up I get so pumped like that's
the nerd side of me in doingthis and when we talk about this
podcast and all that stuff whengot banning involved, like
these are the things that Ibuild it around because I get so
pumped up about new ways to fixold problems.
Oh yeah, cause crime is stillcrime.

(02:06:24):
It it they either hurt someone,stole something Uh, that's
pretty much it really hurtpeople and steal stuff.
I mean that's you know, that'swhat it really comes down to and
there's just new and creativeways to do all of these things.

Speaker 2 (02:06:39):
um, especially with technology, we're we're always
behind the curve, I think, butwe're quickly catching up with
things like what you guys gotgoing on so one of just another
example, because again anotherone that was important for me,
like in many departments, likeCompStat's like a dirty word,
like people just do not likeCompStat.

Speaker 1 (02:06:58):
CompStat's such a pain in the ass too.

Speaker 2 (02:07:00):
I know, and it's because, like a lot of people,
don't have the tools to run aneffective CompStat.

Speaker 1 (02:07:05):
Can you explain what CompStat is?
Yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (02:07:07):
CompStat is a very well it's.
A lot of agencies use CompStat.
It's well deployed and it's away for you know an agency's
leadership to check to see howthe agency is doing on progress,
to like specific goals.
Like if a specific goal for anagency is we're going to drive
down auto burglaries across thecity, for you know, 15% in the

(02:07:28):
next year, like CompStat is away to come together, see how
you're doing on pace, makingsure that you're driving down
those goals.
You know 15% in the next year.
Like CompStat, it's a way tocome together, see how you're
doing on pace, making sure thatyou're driving down those goals.
You're identifying crime trends.
You're getting out in front ofthem, you're addressing those
issues and you know you come tothe CompStat meeting we're
taking.
We're having hard conversationsabout what's working right,
because when you know this timesit's, you know the comp stat

(02:07:50):
meeting is only focused onwhat's not working.
A good comp stat will take aminute to highlight the things
that are working because, likewhen you're driving down crime
in a certain beat or a certainarea, command or a certain
district, you're doing somethingright.
Let's capture that in themeeting.
Let's understand what we'redoing right to have that
positive result and then let'sdo a whole lot more of it.

(02:08:11):
So it's, you know, you have tolook at both what's going you
know what you're doing right andthen the areas for improvement.
And, like most people, likebefore you know, before I had
Peregrine at Albuquerque, I did.
I did what I knew.
I got it together a bunch ofPowerPoint slides, I threw a
bunch of static maps in therewith some static stats, and it
was just what I'll say is it wasnot.

(02:08:32):
It was the opposite of dynamic.

Speaker 1 (02:08:34):
Right, and how long did that process take?

Speaker 2 (02:08:38):
Oh God, Like my crime analyst would spend an entire
week.
I was going to say yeah pullingall the information together to
try to have like so I could puttogether slides to run a
CompStat meeting.

Speaker 1 (02:08:53):
The manpower and hours that go behind.
Traditional comp stat is it's a40 hour probably takes 20 hours
of one person.
Not to mention that all, not tomention the people in the
background, like your crimeanalysts, that are pulling that
stuff for the person that'sgoing to piece it all together,
right so and like and like.

Speaker 2 (02:09:09):
For us, like you know , we quickly, once we got
paragraph like one of the firstthings I did was I I took it
from that very static PowerPointgoing well and where we have
some challenges in the Southeast.
Like you have the ability tolook at the data in Peregrine so

(02:09:38):
you see for yourself likewhat's going on in your area.
Like there's no gotcha moment.
There's no, you know, ambush,there's no.
Like we're talking about thesame data.
Like you can see the data we'regoing to talk about in CompStat
two, three days before.
So like you can be prepared.
Like there's none of thisambush style CompStat.
Like we know where the, we knowwhat we're doing.

(02:09:58):
Good, we know we have someareas we need to work on.
Come prepared to talk aboutwhat you've done, what's working
and what's not working.
So like that whole gotcha isgone.

Speaker 1 (02:10:06):
Yeah, what the part that I want people to take,
because if you're outside of lawenforcement, you're listening
to this you're like how doesthis pertain to me?
Here's how it pertains to you.
This in my, the way that Iwould look at this from a
citizen's point of view, ataxpayer's point of view, is
getting people to do the jobright now is difficult.

(02:10:28):
Getting the money to hire for anew position is difficult.
So we have two very difficultthings in a career field that's
shrinking and is getting harderand harder to get the people you
want to do it.
When you get something likethis, the way I'm looking at it
is you just created a forcemultiplier that almost cannot be

(02:10:49):
measured, because you've justkilled manpower and man.
The time that it takes to doall these things almost in a way
that you can't quantify.
You can, you can track it ifyou really want to, but taking
20 hours away from one personfor CompStat, you just save 20

(02:11:10):
hours for the city.
Now let's put you know fivedetectives together that all
have the same MO cases.
We've just shrunk that downinto minutes versus weeks and
months, if ever.
So that's just on saving moneyfrom the manpower side that I'm
looking at not to mentionaccountability money from the

(02:11:33):
manpower side that I'm lookingat, not to mention
accountability.
So you've got your cases.
When you have a product likePeregrine, you can see the leads
and you can make sure thatthey're followed up on.
You can find out if yourofficers and your detectives are
doing their job and if they'renot, we can start having the
tough conversations.
Hey, I see this lead, this lead, this lead.
You're not.
You haven't hit it yet.
What's the deal?
Right?

(02:11:53):
Oh, sorry, I got caught up onthis case, this case.
Okay, that makes sense.
We'll make sure these getfollowed up, right?
Or hey, I checked out thesecases.
You closed out or pended, bro,you missed all this.
Right, that's unsat.
You got to fix that quick, fastand in a hurry.
So now we're giving thatcustomer satisfaction to our
taxpayers.
That deserve it.
So when I'm looking at this andI hear you say all that stuff,

(02:12:15):
I'm like all right, I don't wantthis to sound pitchy, that's
not what we're going for here.
What I'm going for is there'ssome things that are out there
that the public's not aware ofthat can help your department
out so much, and I'm willing tolay on the sword to tell you
like this is one of those thingsand not enough people know
about it.
So here's the opportunity.
Let's talk about it right.

(02:12:36):
And now we've built up thetrust behind a guy that's done
the job for this long betweentwo departments and knows what
the fuck he's talking about.
Not just a guy that had to putyou know you could get any guy
that's been a cop 20 years andpeople out there are going to be
like, oh, he must know whathe's talking about.
We both know that that's nottrue.

(02:12:58):
I've been around guys that havedone the job for a long time and
they still think you can justgo up and ID somebody because
they got a call there.

Speaker 2 (02:13:06):
You know I'm like what the fuck?
But we just call that like it'snot 20 years of experience,
it's one year of experiencerepeated 20 times.
Yes, yes exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:13:16):
So that's the point that I was trying to get to with
this and kind of hammer homefor those that are outside of
law enforcement.
Now, those that are in lawenforcement, you know how it
goes.
You see the shiny toy.
You really hope your departmentwill get it it.
But they don't always have theright push, they don't have the
right things going on in theirdepartment.
Right, and they got otherworries.

(02:13:37):
But if your citizens get onboard and are like, why don't
you have this?
We have a manpower issue, we'redown 300 officers, things
aren't getting solved, cases arestacking up.
You need to get this be moreefficient.
So that's the push I'm trying.
I always try to get thecitizens behind something.

Speaker 3 (02:13:54):
I think that will help them yeah, and I've got to
ask you know I work for a lawenforcement tech company too and
that this show's not about thattoday, but I recently just a
year ago jumped off the divingboard from that protective job
and the law enforcement officerand and that leap and mine went
outstanding.
I know a lot of people but somepeople don't go so great.

(02:14:14):
But what I'm getting at is youmade a lot of connections as
well, all over the country, notjust because of the position
you're in now but yourexperience within that law
enforcement realm.
Have you ever gotten thatrookie or intermediate advanced
cop call you and say I lovePeregrine so much?
Can you give me something thatI can take to my supervisors to

(02:14:36):
help push the want to get a demo, to get a?
And I'm sure you've gottenthose calls.

Speaker 2 (02:14:41):
Oh, all the time we get them.
Like, we get them all the timeand it's just like, um, we're
very fortunate that, like wesolve a lot of problems for a
department, like, when we startto, we start to ask the simple
questions like how difficult isit for you to do your job on a
daily basis?
Like, how many times do youfind that you really need
information that's reallydifficult for you to find right?
How many times do you like, doyou wish, like, after you were

(02:15:03):
at a call, you had thisinformation before you walked
into a call.
And then we show them, like, howeasy it is to pull that
information, to make it likeoperationally useful and like,
and one of the things again,like I really appreciate is,
like you know, depending uponwhat kind of user you are, like
you know, you can pull data veryquickly, whether it's from a
mobile data terminal, whetherit's from a smartphone app.
So, like we make it so it's easyto use for your particular role

(02:15:25):
.
And so then, like, once westart to show them all those
things, you know they understand, like, what, like what we can
do for them.
Like we armed them with thatinformation, they see and go
back and like look this thesefolks can help us solve this
problem that every one of ourofficers has every day.
We can cut, you know, 30% ofthe time we spend trying to pull
information, to do a report orto follow up on an investigation

(02:15:47):
.
That is real value for adepartment.
Like that's now.
Like we're talking aboutfreeing up resources so they can
be more effective, they can bemore proactive, they can spend
more time in the community.

Speaker 1 (02:15:58):
Like that's really what we're focused on.
Yeah, now I like to be fair andbalanced.
So in the fair and balancedpart of that and I know you'll
be honest, you guys havecompetitors now that have come
to the forefront.
That didn't exist when I firstfound you guys.
Right, when I first found you,you were the only one of your
guys' kind, sure, and so thatwas what made me so interested.
But time has caught on.

(02:16:20):
Competitors have come out.
What set you apart?

Speaker 2 (02:16:24):
Yeah, and so thanks for that, eric.
And so, like, and again, likeyou're not going to ever hear me
talk bad about another vendor,it's just not what we're about
Like we will stand on our owncapabilities.
I think, like, if you look athow the company is built to this
day, like the vast majority ofour headcount of people working

(02:16:45):
at Peregrine, we still staffwith really top-level
engineering talent.
Like we have like like a goodportion of our company I don't
have the percentages, you knowoff the top of my head, but
still a very good portion of ourcompany is some of the best and
brightest engineering talent inthe market, and these are folks
that have worked in many, manycompanies, you know, in the tech

(02:17:06):
space.
And then they, they come to usand we give them a really them a
mission that they can buy into,like really helping to make
their community a safer place,and so we attract this top-level
engineering talent that allowsus to do things that, quite
frankly, some other companiesjust can't do.
We have some incrediblytalented engineers that enable
us to turn around, featurechanges or build new

(02:17:29):
capabilities or to do thingswith the platform that other
folks just can't do, and so,like, we're always happy to go
like call us both into a room,ask us the same question, see
how we both of us respond.
I think we used to call that thePepsi challenge when back in my
day I'm a little older and I'mhappy to take the Pepsi
challenge any day and like justnothing, nothing derogatory to

(02:17:51):
say about those other, thoseother companies out there.
Just put a side by side and letthe customer make the decision
I like it.

Speaker 1 (02:17:58):
I like it.
Got anything for him Banning?

Speaker 3 (02:18:01):
No, I've been.
You know, I was introduced toPeregrine from Eric and I
started doing my own research onit, and this was while I was
still a law enforcement officer.
Yeah research on it, and andthis is while I was still a law
enforcement officer yeah and uh,I didn't.
I didn't work for the largestagency out there that didn't
really have the ability to getanything, let alone something on
the magnitude of peregrine, andI pushed for it was quickly

(02:18:23):
shot down, not because ofperegrine or where the abilities
was.
They didn't have any latitudeyeah, at all at for that year
and uh, but doing more researchinto it, I still can't wait to
see it function in front of mesomewhere, because Eric has kind
of dissected it to me and, wow,what an amazing company to work
for.

Speaker 2 (02:18:42):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (02:18:43):
It sounds awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:18:44):
We like working with other.
We partner with softwarecompanies all the time.
It's up to the agency, right?
You want the agency to get themost value out of their
technology investment, so wework with pretty much every
technology company under the sunto partner with them so that
the agency gets the most bangfor their buck.

Speaker 1 (02:19:06):
Yes, that is my biggest draw to all the
companies that people will hearme push.
The reason I push them isbecause of the teamwork, the
integration.
You're never going to becomerich I say this loosely You're
never going to become rich byjust trying to be proprietary

(02:19:29):
and going into the government.
Right.
Like it doesn't work becausethis police agency has this
stuff going on over here,whether it's Axon body cameras,
and then over here they gotWatchGuard body cameras.
They don't, they don't.
They got to work together.
They got to be able to worktogether when they're out in the
field.
So that's what I look for.

(02:19:50):
You got companies like First 2.
I like giving them shout outsall the time because First 2
integrates with everybody.
Peregrine will integrate withanybody.
Axon I think.
I'm not as familiar.
I'm heavily into using Axon.
I got their body cam, theirtaser dash cams Like I just LPR.
I think we're getting their LPR.

(02:20:12):
I'm not 100% sure on that, tobe honest.
But they integrate Right andthat's what we need, because us
as civilians and as citizens,taxpayers, we can't afford to be
put against the wall, so tospeak, with something that's
proprietary.
Now we're stuck.

(02:20:34):
We get Nike shoes, nike shirts,nike, whatever, and that's all
we can get because they won'tmix and match with anything else
at our department.
We're screwed.
Now we're stuck with Nike thewhole time.
There may be some better stuffout there.

Speaker 2 (02:20:48):
I think, in this day and age, the idea that one
vendor can solve all of yourproblems, like hopefully we're
past that, Like I mean, likethere's just so much the pace of
innovation is just staggeringin 2025.
Like, and there are so manygreat companies out there doing
great things to help, you know,support, public safety Like we

(02:21:09):
shouldn't bar entry to that.

Speaker 1 (02:21:10):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:21:11):
We need to get past that thought process that one
company can do it all for us asa law enforcement agency.

Speaker 1 (02:21:15):
Yeah, I hate the term single pane of glass.
Oh my God, you want to alienateme really quick.
Say single pane of glass.
That drives me insane.
It does not work in lawenforcement.
We have too many differentmoving parts going on.
You know the way I likepointing it out to people is
guess what we have for cars.
Where I'm at, we've got Tahos,we got Ford Explorers, we got

(02:21:38):
Chargers.
Like we have variety.
Variety is the spice of life.
Variety is the same in policing.
You got to have all thesethings.
They got to be able to talk toeach other.
They got to be able to worktogether each other, they got to
be able to work together.
And that is just.
That is the difference betweenprivate sector for citizens and
the government.
Right, the government's got tobe able to work together because

(02:21:59):
we're not out at for, we're notin it for profit, we're in it
to get a job done right andthat's serve the community,
service community, absolutely so.
Um, sir, have I missed anythingthat you knew you wanted to get
out there today?

Speaker 2 (02:22:13):
Oh, I don't think you missed anything, but, like what
I, what I will say is that, umone, I just, I really appreciate
the opportunity to be here.
I can't tell you how happy andproud I am to be here and spend
a little time with you.
Um, I also want to just want tokind of note that like the
thing that I really love aboutmy life now, now that I've
transitioned out of lawenforcement and I'm into the

(02:22:33):
private sector, I think like thething that I love the most that
I get to do is like I get tospend my day, every day, with
cops, right.
My brothers and sisters in lawenforcement.
I don't get to put on a uniformevery.
I don't get to put on a uniformanymore.
Um, I don't get to go out anddo that type of work anymore.
But I get to spend my day withcops and that's you know.

(02:22:55):
I get to help, actually helpmake their lives better.
I believe in what we're doingand I truly believe in my core
that we help them do their jobsbetter, and that is just so
incredibly fulfilling for me nowthat I'm no longer in law
enforcement.

Speaker 1 (02:23:10):
I like it, I like it and I like it, I like it and I
like what you've got going onright now.
Again, everything with me isabout balance and with what
you're doing, you're able toprovide balance for the citizens
and balance for the policedepartment with checks and
balances, even though that's notits primary function.
It's just nice to know thatthat exists and that makes me

(02:23:32):
happy.

Speaker 2 (02:23:33):
So I'd love to come back in the future, and next
time I'll bring my bagpipes.

Speaker 1 (02:23:36):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:23:36):
So you know we didn't get to talk about this, but
like one of the coolest things Iever got to do with state
police was, I joined the pipesand drums of the blue and gold.

Speaker 1 (02:23:44):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:23:45):
And got to play.
Got to play with that fineorganization.
So next time I need to come on,we'll save it.

Speaker 1 (02:23:49):
Yeah, my bagpipes.

Speaker 3 (02:23:50):
Absolutely yeah, and the sound of a bagpipe is
amazing.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely amazing.
I didn't know that about you.
That's awesome man, that'sreally interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:24:00):
I could see you being a big bass drum guy.

Speaker 3 (02:24:03):
I could just be the bag on the pipe.
There you go, yeah shoot.

Speaker 1 (02:24:07):
Maybe we could get like a little fireside chat.
We'll get the pipes out there.
You got the fireplace rightthere, let's do that next time.
That'd be fun, heck, yeah.
Well, everybody, thanks forjoining us.
Lenny, thank you for coming out, appreciate it.
Sir Banning, not bad for ourfirst time doing it.
Huh, not bad at all.
We got some fixes to do.
I've seen already, but we'll.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Lenny Nebretski: How Police Tech Saves Lives!

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

Lenny Nebretski: How Police Tech Saves Lives!

On Purpose with Jay Shetty