LIVE STREAMED! From Crisis to Communication in Law Enforcement

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The opinions expressed by guests on the

(00:01):
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of Two Cops One Donut, its hostor affiliates.
The podcast is intended forentertainment and informational
purposes only.
We do not endorse any guest'sopinions or actions discussed
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Any content provided by guestsis of their own volition and
listeners are encouraged to formtheir own opinions.
Furthermore, some content isgraphic and has harsh language,

(00:23):
viewer discretion advised and isintended for mature audiences.
Two cops one donut and its hostdo not accept any liability for
statements what's going on,guys?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
that was uh alan that just walked out of the picture.
As you can see, one of us isnot on here.
Eric is out.
We'll call it vacation.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
I hope you out for sorry, my wall went to sleep
behind me there, benny hey, noworries, no worries.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
I was just telling everybody that.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Uh, eric is that it thinks it's time to go home I'm
just telling everybody that uh,eric is out of pocket, can you?
Hear me, I can actually hearyou now.
Welcome tonight, guys.
Tonight we have BenningSweatland and Alan Nelson and we

(01:14):
have somebody else joining ushopefully here in a few minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
We've got Vaughn from Force Science.
He'll be on in a couple minutes.
If you don't know who Vaughn is, I'm going to give him a couple
minutes once he gets on to givehis fascinating resume of what
he does.
In the meantime, if you want tolook up Force Science
outstanding organization, I'mnot going to go into it.
I don't want to spoil whatVaughn's going to talk about.
But most law enforcementofficers that are out there

(01:38):
motivated, trying to do betterand to get into stuff.
They usually know what ForceScience is.
But thank you all for joiningus tonight.
I know Alan's got some videosqueued up.
We'll wait for Vaughn to get onand go from there.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
I'd say constitutional country girls
here.
Mr Billfold's been here forlike three hours, Three Hours
Ozark Moon, Tim Owens, TimHarrison Brock.

(02:12):
So you guys are going to haveto bear with just me and Banning
, because Eric is off playing insome crystal clear water and he
didn't invite everybody.
So we're stuck here.
So you're gonna have to justsit with us, as mr billfold says
hopefully, eric's enjoyinghimself.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
he, uh, he works hard on a full-time job and he and
he does this, uh, even a lotmore time on top of that.
So he, he dedicates a lot ofhis time to the show and he is
two cops one donut and I and I'ma, I'm a small little side
piece, and so is Alan.
We just try to emphasize whatEric is doing out there and he's
doing a great job, um, butagain, we're just waiting on

(02:53):
Vaughn to log in.
Once Vaughn gets logged in,we'll, uh, we'll definitely get
the show on the road for sure.

Speaker 3 (02:59):
Well, we've already gotten a.
Mr Billfold gifted a membershipfor level one and then Gina
Maria gifted a membership.
So evidently you're not a lotlike it, doesn't?
You don't get to get it, itjust goes to somebody.

(03:20):
Sure, we're learning how allthis stuff works and Mr Billfold
, it folds.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Good to see you virtually for now.
I know someday I'm sure we'llmeet in person.
Perry, I see you're on here.
Everybody that's on.
I appreciate it.
Uh, we're gonna get thisexciting and popping here in
just a just a couple momentsonce, once von comes into the
lobby with us or into the roomwith us.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
Tim thinks you need to change your name to the
bearded wander.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
I've I've heard a lot , of, a lot of nicknames in the
past.
That's a good one too.
That was, that was good.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Miss Jones, Good evening from Eric's house.
Well, hello.
Thanks for taking care of thedaughters so they can go and
enjoy a little husband wife time.
As you know, those young, thatyoung couple needs to do that.
So thank you for taking care ofthem.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Absolutely, absolutely.
We got to give, got to give ourboy Eric a break every once in
a while.
The guy's a hundred miles anhour, burning on both ends.
I hope he's 100, relaxing withhis better half and just
enjoying life like you should beI agree, I agree what's uh, if
you've got something queued upfor me, I do?

Speaker 3 (04:35):
um, let me so we.
We had a hot topic put on theon the plate yesterday.
Eric brought up this topic andlet me figure out how to make it
play again, because, oh, thereit is.
I figured it out, and so howwould you feel as a fellow

(04:58):
officer if you find out that anofficer gives a homeless man dog
feces in a sandwich?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Man, you know, I briefly saw that skimming in
between work things and it justabsolutely disgusted me.
I don't know the entire storybehind it so it's hard for me to
comment on it, but obviouslyjust the headline.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
So this young man was a San Antonio police officer
when this all went down.
It's actually an older story,but what he did a couple
different things the whole heconsidered them pranks.
And then there was an incidentat the department during bike

(05:44):
patrol, he smeared browntapioca-like substance on the
seat wall and so ultimately,through his local, he challenged
the department to get back onand they said they could not

(06:06):
fire him.
And did I lose you Banning?
No, I'm here, ok.
And and then later on, in 2020,so that four years later,
florence Floresville PD hiredhim and they were not aware of

(06:29):
his background.
He no longer works forFloresville PD.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
My whole thing just to interject that.
How in the hell aren't youaware of somebody's background
when you're a law enforcementagency?
And that's what you do beforeyou freaking hire them
Especially in the last fouryears.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
I think it was two legislative updates ago that you
had to go through any T Cole,like any of your background.
You had to show documentationand go through the efforts of
that investigation.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
It just makes me sick .
Go through the efforts of thatinvestigation.
It just makes me sick.
We're sitting here fighting anuphill battle on ones that go
out here and do this kind ofstuff that tarnishes the badge
and when you look at the badgein a whole man what it stands
for and what it truly is for thepeople when it's utilized
correctly, like it is themajority of the time and then
you've got somebody like this.
That just makes you want totake people like that out in an

(07:27):
alley and have a conversationwith them.
That's all yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, I mean, you know there's so many times in
law enforcement where you knowthere's a situation shown that
the other officer didn't step inand say something.
But how many times have youstepped in and said something I
can't?
I mean, I can't even speak tothat.
It's probably once a week whereit's like, hey, we're not going

(07:52):
to do that or that's not thebest way we're going to handle
this, and and so uh like um Ijust there's not even words for
it.
It was.
I've been getting um.
I recently got added to theFacebook feed for Two Cops, one
Donut, and so if you're wantingto know how to like the show and

(08:14):
subscribe um, any of theplatforms, go ahead and uh like
Two Cops, one Donut, but um I, Imean, it's like two cops, one
donut.
It's like literally almostevery two minutes somebody makes
a comment on there about this.
I don't know what the numbersare at, but I would say it's way

(08:34):
up there because it's justridiculous.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
It is the mentality and I get it.
There's a lot of cities thatare that are harder than others
to get people hired, but when westart doing this warm body in a
seat, they've got the basic,this basic, this basic, this
perfect.
Get them out there, let them goout and start taking calls.
I'm sorry, but to myprofessional standards, guys out
there and these are, these are,you know, departments that are

(09:03):
usually accreditation or haveaccreditation and they go
through all these, all thesechecks and backgrounds.
But we've got to be better.
Now, for the most part, a lotof agencies do it right.
So I'm not, I'm not hammeringall departments here, but
there's a there's a good handfulof them out there that really
need to slow their role inhiring folks.
We may be short for a minute,but let's make sure we get the
right people in there.

(09:23):
And then we've got to fix thisGod awful pay.
That's that's going wrong.
You know across the country aswell, and I hate to say it, but
sometimes you get what you payfor.
You really do.
You know, I hate to say that.
And there should be just, andit is at most places that that
level needs to be at a high, tobe at a high, high standard, no

(09:45):
matter what's, you know, gettingdeposited in the bank every two
weeks because you're sworn toserve um and you know what that
pay is before going into it.
And if you go in, you know,with those type of shenanigans,
uh, you need to be, they need tobuild a new prison and you need
to be laid within thatfoundation before they put the
prison down.
And just it pisses me off to noend, uh, to see cops like this
across the country and then andthen with it, you know, and
that's the other thing, and itjust it, just it really pisses

(10:09):
me off.
Pardon my French on that, butthat kind of stuff just drives
me insane.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Well, and we're already, you know, fighting an
uphill battle.
You know, you know just thetopic.
I got asked twice on my travelshere.
So today I'm in my headquartersin Alameda, california, with
RGB Spectrum and as I'mtraveling from Texas to here,

(10:35):
everybody's like, well, you'renot going to Los Angeles with
all that craziness going on.
And sadly we have another majorincident this year with
emergency responders.
And how long is it going totake us to overcome that
nonsense on poor management ofincident?
And you know it's not on, it'son a whole large group.

(11:00):
You know we can get intopolitics and all that and we
don't talk that here on thisshow, but it's, it's not on any
one person.
There were a lot of people atfault and all the different
incidents this year.
It just seems like we keep uh,stump, stumping our toes before

(11:21):
we get ahead of any of theseincidents.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
So does your building there have a fire suppression
system?
It?

Speaker 3 (11:27):
does and what's crazy .
So before, when I traveled herea year ago, when I first took
this job, I literally spent fourhours doing training on how to
self-evacuate, or like we had tohave earthquake drills,
earthquake drills, just to be inthe building.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Man, yeah, no, I have no doubt in the insurance
that's, that's a whole.
I mean we could do a topic onthat too and I can bring in some
insurance guys, but the whole,the whole insurance thing.
Just from the uh, from thebeginning of when I got my
driver's license until now, whenyou watch these rates and I'm
not an insurance expert, let methrow that out there but going

(12:11):
from all the uninsured folksthat are out there and raising
the rates on other ones and thatteetering goes back and forth,
it doesn't matter even how goodof a driver you are anymore.
I mean your rates are crazy.
And forget it if you've got a16-, 16 year old or a new driver
in the house and getting thesecars.
You know, I learned that acouple of years ago uh, I was

(12:32):
adding a new, a new vehicle tomy policy, not to get off the
beaten path.
Uh, because I gave my son mytruck and I decided to add a
Hellcat uh to the policy.
And uh, and just having him inthe household, just the
insurance on that type ofvehicle goes up to another car
payment.
It's just like what in the heckis going on here.
I mean, there's no crashes, noaccidents, no, nothing.

(12:54):
Good driving all the way,anyway, I could go on that for
days, but just the crap.
That goes on like thatthroughout the country.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
These insurance companies like that throughout
the country, these insurancecompanies Well, pam says
something here and it's becausewe keep lowering our standards
when we go back to that otherincident, but I think it goes
along with everything.
We're lowering our standards.
I can't say that it's just lawenforcement.
I think we're lowering thestandards and the products that

(13:24):
we're purchasing from the storebecause we we we're not holding
people accountable on what we'redoing and, and a lot of it is
because we don't have an option.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yep.
You know, absolutely, and I'mjust kind of looking over these
comments.
You know, on that top right one, from who is that?
Stan the man?
I'm saying that wrong, Iapologize, my eyes are getting
old.
No, insurance in my state is ahuge fine and they can arrest
you.
You know that's technically.
You can do that in Texas aswell.
I can't speak on all the statesbecause it's a.

(13:56):
It's a class C violation.
The only things that you cannotarrest for for for for
violations here in a movingviolation is what is it?
The open container textingwhile driving?

Speaker 3 (14:09):
and running Stops are the red light or seatbelt.
Seatbelt, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
And it's just, but anyway, man, or speeding too.
So speeding you can't arrestunless you, unless you
articulate.
You know reckless driving andwhatnot.
But I get, you know.
I get questions from all overthe country Like, hey Banning, I
had a cousin that was in Dallas, texas, last summer and they
left a nightclub.
He was the D and D driver.

(14:41):
They got lost in theneighborhood, got turned around
and then they were stopped by anagency.
It wasn't necessarily Dallas,there's a lot of little cities
that push up to it andultimately he was arrested, or
what they call in Texas, inStantard, for no license plate
light.
And there he is.
There's the man right there.

(15:01):
How's it going, juan Good?
Thanks for waiting,absolutely's the man right there
?
How's it going, juan?
Good Thanks for waiting,absolutely.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
Glad to have you.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
The Texas law is in reference to what you can and
can't arrest for on trafficviolations.
Going over that and telling himthe stories that I receive on
LinkedIn, sometimes on a dailybasis, on people.
Is it true that you can bearrested in Texas for no license
plate on your car?
Yeah, nine times out of 10, ifthat cop's going to do an
actionable item on that orenforcement, it's going to be a

(15:31):
citation.
But yes, technically they canbe in standard and brought
before a judge and that's whatthat law states.
So, yeah, people can actuallygo to jail and bond out on a
class C small violation and justI mean it's small piddly stuff,
but it's in the law.
We don't write the law.
But without further ado, I'mgoing to take a couple minutes
For those of you that don't knowVaughn.

(15:52):
First of all, vaughn, Iappreciate you taking the time
out of your schedule to evenbless us with your presence,
brother, but without further ado, vaughn, if you can just give
us a little background, letthese amazing folks know who you
are.

Speaker 6 (16:07):
First of all, thanks for having me.
I think this is my second timeon the show.
The first one I was stuck in ahotel and you guys invited me.
I was like yeah, I'm in.
I tried to hang something onthe wall or curtain or something
behind me so it didn't looklike I was in a historic hotel.
So I'm Vaughn Kleem.
I'm the Chief Consulting andCommunications Officer over at

(16:27):
Force Science.
We're involved in most of thehigh profile cases in the
country.
My job is to do litigation,consulting.
So we work with theinvestigators and we work with
the attorneys to first identifywhat the law is and believe it
or not.
We're having a hard time doingthat.
Some of these states that don'tknow in criminal cases how to

(16:49):
properly charge a cop for anon-duty shooting, because
sometimes it's the first timethat's happened.
How I ended up there?
I was a cop for about 10 yearsfull-time.
I did what most of youraudience who are cops did.
I worked patrol.
I worked high-risk narcoticsservice for a while mid-level
narcotics, three-level narcotics, and then uh ran our dt program

(17:10):
, our defense tactics program,our de-escalation program.
Uh ultimately worked on swatfor a little bit not a lot of
time there.
I did mostly narcotics, butsometime on swat became an
attorney.
As an attorney I was a seniorprosecutor, I was a special
assistant uS attorney fora,while I was a police legal
advisor for maybe five differentchiefs.
I was a military attorney.

(17:32):
Ultimately I worked at thePentagon.
I wrote policy use of forcepolicy for the DOD and for the
Army as a member of the Armystaff Retired out of the
military, and all that time Icontinued to work as a civilian
cop, part-time, like as areserve, so I'd go back weekends
and holidays and just kind ofkeep my feet wet.
And then worked for Lexapol asa senior policy attorney after I

(17:55):
retired and then moved over toForce Science where I was now
the executive editor of ForceScience News and then moved over
to litigation consulting andthen chief communications and
consulting officers.
So right now I'm kind of aconductor.
I I pull together all the the,the areas that we work on and
expertise just for the audienceis we make sure we understand

(18:18):
the legal aspects, policepractices, um, use of force,
spread assessments and responsesand then human performance,
meaning the psychological,physiological and environmental
influences on decision-making.
So a big part of what I do nowis try to explain to attorneys
and even investigators, sort ofwhat cops know what is it

(18:40):
they're thinking about, as thesethings are sort of unfolding in
real time.
And I'll just end on this we'realways pushing in our
litigation, consulting and inour training there's this
concept of honest accountability, because we want to hold
officers accountable.
So you'll hear me keep bringingup honest accountability, which
is distinct from corruptaccountability or politicized

(19:04):
accountability.
And it requires two things One,the standards have to be clear
enough that an officer canpredict the lawfulness of their
own behavior.
So we look at the word and saywould anybody even know what
that meant or how that wassupposed to guide their conduct?
And then the second and maybemost important part for what we
do is our unique offer at ForceSciences we make sure the
expectations on officers aren'tbeyond human performance

(19:27):
expectations.
So, uh, when we, especiallywhen we're looking at video, we
remember videos are not a proxyfor the officer's experience.
So the video brings usimportant information, but we
always, we always keep separatethat the officer's experience is
completely unrelated to thevideo.
That's just like anotherwitness.
And so we look at the humanperformance aspects that

(19:48):
officers bring into that as anyother human would and start
analyzing those cases, neverletting any of our clients
forget that that's a humaninvolved and not metal and glass
.
So that's a little bit about mesuper fast.
Thanks again for having me manAppreciate it Absolutely,
absolutely.
We have a melting pot of anaudience.
A little bit about me superfast, um thanks again for having
me.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
man, appreciate it absolutely, absolutely.
We have a a melting pot of anaudience, and that's what I love
.
Uh, we have everything from lawenforcement out here to to
other attorneys that get onthere, to, uh, to, to homemakers
, to, to everybody, and that'swhat we're.
We're trying to bridge that gapin between law enforcement and
the community that we all loveto serve and protect.

(20:27):
So, vaughn, again, thank youfor your time and, alan, I'm
going to ask you to get thatfirst video up and, vaughn, just
like last time, I haven't seenor even know the title of any of
these videos We'll startwatching the video and, if you
need something, paused to getmore clarity and reverse it.
Obviously we're the audience,just like the people watching.

(20:47):
We're getting the same exactview.
We're hearing everything thatthey hear.
If I know the background of thestory, or if I've seen it, or
if any of the three of us haveseen it, we'll say hey, we're
going to stay out of this andwe'll let the others answer on
it.
Just to be correct with it, Ilike to go into these blind.
So let's go ahead withoutfurther ado, alan, and get that

(21:11):
first video queued up and we'llgo ahead and hit play.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, we're working on hitting buttons here.
Okay, biggie size.
Biggie size.

Speaker 5 (21:33):
Copy a pursuit Passing 55 traffic point on
northbound, northbound on D-19.
Okay, go for it.
Speeds are 50 miles an hour.
Speeds are 50.
How's the road?
Flat but clear.

(21:55):
Turning on the.

Speaker 3 (21:58):
I'm going to try something.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
It's laggy, ed Vaughn , is it laggy on your end?

Speaker 6 (22:03):
You guys are not.
The video is yes, Okay.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
I'm going to try something, so just bear with me
a minute.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
The only thing I know how to do on a computer is
control-alt-delete shut it down,restart it.
So we'll let Alanprofessionally handle this
situation.
That's going on.
I'm not your guy for it.
I'm not your guy for it.
Hey, alan, don't hit play yetwhile you're working on that
Vaughn, why don't you whilewe're waiting?

(22:31):
We got an event coming up nextweek.
Are you able to say what you'regoing to be doing or talk about
that?
Yeah, let me.

Speaker 6 (22:40):
So we're going to be heading out to the SHOT Show.
So we're going to be headingout to the SHOT Show and we are
going to be teaching at the LawEnforcement Education sort of a
mini conference there.
I think it's the LEADS program,and what I'm looking at now is
we're going to be working withVirtra.

(23:02):
Virtra is a high-tech simulator.
It's one of the most accuratesimulators on the market right
now.
I'm working with Lon Bartel, whoworks for Virtra, and what
we're doing is understandingconstitutional policing and
human performance, and we'regoing to be talking about how
the integration of theconstitutional standard of
reasonableness is, or should be,reflected in our training, our

(23:27):
operations, our investigationsand then our post, our
evaluation, basically cases, andwe have about an hour and a
half.
So we're going to go through itpretty quickly and, if you guys
can make it out, if you'regoing to be at SHOTS, just stop
by and see us.
Lon and I have been teachingcourses together and we do, I
think, a pretty good job ofblending the reality of human

(23:47):
performance and the cases we'reseeing and Lon works with us as
well as an expert witness agreethe law, the human performance

(24:07):
issues and then the actualmethods of instructions or the
advanced instructional methodsof basically how to teach so
that officers retain theinformation.
So it's going to be a quick hit.
We're going to cover a lot ofground, but if you guys are out
of shot, so please make sure youmake it out there.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's going to be understanding constitutional
policing and human performancewith Force Science and Virtra
Outstanding and I'm definitelygoing to be there Found out
today that I've got the latitudeto be able to go out, so I'll
be going out and representing mycompany out there and doing a
lot of development.
So, looking forward to it, I'mdefinitely going to come and

(24:39):
watch it and I'll be able tocome back and report to
everybody on how it goes.
I know it'll be an amazing showthat Vaughn's putting on, so
can't wait for that and, alan,if you're ready, I guess we can
go ahead and start.

Speaker 5 (24:48):
South being 55, traffic white cone northbound,
northbound on D-19.
Okay, go for it.
Speeds are 50 miles an hour.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
So, up until this point, what are you guys seeing
in this video?
We try not to read the title upat the top.
We're just kind of trying totake in all the information.
What's one of the biggestsituations to be aware of at
this point?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Obviously, they're in an area of freezing conditions.
They got snow on the ground and, being a guy from Texas, went
to high school up in Ohio, beinga guy from Texas.
Now, looking at that, I meanthat's just raising my hairs a
little bit.
Hopefully there's enough.
Nothing's frozen on the ground.
I just worry about collisions,obviously, and all the other

(25:37):
people that are involved notwanting to be just because
they're going to the store.
They're coming home from work,they're going to work and now
this pursuit is coming through.
So I always look at that safetyaspect on what is worth
pursuing and what is not.
Do we know who this person is?
Can we write a warrant later onand get him under a safer
situation, or is this somethingthat we need to absolutely take

(26:01):
this person into custody?
And that's just Banning'sopinion, vaughn.

Speaker 6 (26:05):
No, I think, I think you're right.
That balance, that constantbalance between, you know,
safety of the community and thencops actually doing their jobs,
which is, you know, from atraditional law enforcement
standpoint, that's catching badguys right.
So there's a lot of competinggovernment interests.
This comes up in a lot of caseswhere we don't know the outcome
of this video yet.
But if there's a bad outcome,we have one side who will get up

(26:29):
on the stand and say theyshould have just let him go, we
could have got him another day.
Our thought of that is thatmight be what happens, or it
might be that if you let him gotoday, he kills the next cop
that tries to pick him up.
At some point there's going tobe a confrontation, whether the
confrontation occurs today onthe street or it occurs at his
doorstep.
So your point's well taken.

(26:51):
The officer on the ground hasto be checking road conditions,
traffic conditions and thenbalancing that against the fact
that he still has a job to doand the community expects him to
do it.
This is a real-time decision.
We've all been there whereyou're chasing somebody and they
just blow right through a stopsign or a stoplight and and the
cross traffic is thick andyou're just like, yeah, okay, no

(27:13):
, I'm done, this is not, thisisn't worth it.
We're uh, and you know thatwhen you see it, um, so it's a
constant balance.
You know, I'll leave it at thatat this point.
It's a constant balance.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
I'll leave it at that at this point.
No, I agree with you, Tim.
He answered my question verybluntly, as he always does, and
I love you, Tim.
He's got his lights on and thecar didn't pull over.
That's right.
That's exactly what's going onin this video at this point.
But then he does make a goodpoint.
He doesn't really have a safearea to pull over yet.

(27:47):
So how does that play into?
When you're trying to pullsomebody over, you know how far
is too far to go to find a safespot to pull over.
Yep.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
And I've seen, you know, just going back and again.
I don't have the backgroundVaughn has.
I've got 21 years in lawenforcement no-transcript.

(28:34):
Let's go on to the next charge.
So you know a lot of it'sopinion based when you look at
the letter of the law of whatthe statute states in Texas
under the penal code law of whatthe statute states in Texas
under the penal code.
It's evading either way whenyou fail to yield in a motor
vehicle at the response ofemergency lights and sirens of a
well-marked law enforcementvehicle.

(28:54):
So I see that just in Texas andI'm assuming around the country
it's probably going to be thesame thing.
It's going to be the DA'sdiscretion, the law enforcement
agency, just so people knowthey're always going to put the
highest charge that they havethere and the DA will determine
whether or not all the elementsof the offense are there, et
cetera, et cetera and what fitsand what doesn't, and they may

(29:17):
decide to knock one down.
And again, that's at a muchhigher level in the justice
system than I've been educatedon, but just from witnessing it.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (29:27):
I think that's right and it's always in the cop test.
Remember, we're talking aboutprobable cause standard, right?
So when do you have probablecause or reason to believe he's
violated the law?
Well, yeah, as soon as you'rerequired under the law and you
look at the state to immediatelypull over to the right.
Now, if you don't do that,there's probable cause to
believe you violated the statute.
Right now, all the things wetalk about finding finding a

(29:49):
well-lit condition or a safeplace to stop or a public area
because you didn't know if itwas really the police those are
all things in mitigation.
Those are all things aprosecutor to consider when
exercising their prosecutorialdiscretion, or if you plead
guilty and exercise insentencing, right.
But from a cop standpoint, thequestion becomes when do you
have probable cause to make thearrest?
But more than that, forget thearrest or not arrest, you start

(30:11):
looking at what is a copthinking when someone does not
immediately pull over to theright, what are the reasonable
inferences a cop can make?
Because they don't know.
So everything's an educatedguess and it just has to be a
reasonable guess based ontraining, education, experience.
And so right now, what I'mstarting to think about is
what's the initial trafficviolation as compared to the
level of resistance I'm seeing,and when you have a level of

(30:33):
resistance that'sdisproportionate to the
suspected violation, then wetrain cops to start adding other
possibilities.
Not that you know, when you'redoing mind reading, maybe it's a
medical, you know, it could bea lot of things.
But ultimately we don't wantcops to assume the best in these
scenarios.
Right, he's just looking for asafe place to pull over.

(30:54):
That's just on the list ofpossibilities.
As they start consciouslyimagining the other
possibilities, maybe they donothing other than notify for
additional units.
Get a helicopter up, starttrying to get some containment.
It doesn't mean you're doing apit maneuver already, but you
should start on the.
As you're weighing the scale,you start putting more rocks.
On that side of this is a levelof resistance that

(31:16):
disproportionate to a tag lightviolation and that should mean
something to the cop.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yep and if he is doing a pit maneuver, just so
that the audience can understand.
Let's say, hypothetically it'sme as the peace officer in this
vehicle behind him and I don'tknow the town we're in.
I don't know any of thebackground of the story, but if
I know if it's a bad enoughcharge other than the abating,
if I've got something else inthere and I know I've got an

(31:41):
elementary school or a highschool ahead and it's during
school zone hours and there's apossibility of somebody or child
getting hurt, I would like tothink that I would end that as
soon as possible to reduce thatchance.
So an officer has to thinkabout that as well.
While driving, communicating,running the MDC.

(32:02):
This may have started off as acall to where, when he arrived
on scene, the pursuit started.
It could have been familyviolence, it could have been
anything, it could have beenshoplifting, whatever.
So the officer just so thegeneral public that's watching
understands has got a millionthings going through his mind.
Obviously the driver that's notyielding.
I have no clue what's goingthrough his mind, but he's got a
million things in there.

(32:22):
And a clue what's going throughhis mind, but he's got a
million things in there and oneof them is I don't want to go to
jail right now and I canunderstand that.
As a human being, you know thatfight or flight mentality of
what's going on in their head,but it all equates to be.
It could be a very dangeroussituation.
I'm not sure how this is goingto end up, but I'll stop talking
.
We'll.
We'll figure out how that endsright now.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
And I definitely agree.
Stay on the man.
Uh, we'll just leave it at thatbut here we go.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
See you there.
How's the road?
Uh, wet but clear, Turn it onto kettle.

Speaker 5 (33:05):
Turn it on kettle they.
Where's the order at?
They're on Ketta West at.

Speaker 3 (33:10):
D-19.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Okay, so at this point, why do you think at this
point he's made the decision?

Speaker 6 (33:28):
to go ahead and stop this situation.
I went last one.
I'm gonna let you take this onefirst, bro.
Uh well, I think we gottaremember that he's also got to
consider his own safetyconsiderations, right?
So the timing of it is he'salso driving on those crazy
roads.
So if he's going to be, if he'sgoing to be expected to do his
his law enforcement duties right, which is catch that guy um,
he's the entire time.
He's doing a cost benefitstrade-off analysis, right Is the

(33:48):
?
Is the benefit of this chaseworth the risk?
Right?
And at some point, when theroads are no longer clear here
he's moving into residentialareas, he's got to drive on that
same snow At some point.
He's.
He's just done with the riskjust done with the risk.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
No, I completely agree.
I think at a certain point inthis scenario, when you look at
what we saw previously when hewas, you know there was a lot of
traffic.
Now we have a solid, coveredroad, less bar ditches, things
like that, and so if you do apit maneuver here, I think you
have a lot less people that canbe involved than previously.

(34:31):
That, in my opinion, was maybea state highway.
And so I'm going to let it playout just a little bit more.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
So earlier there on Teta West, the D-19.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
So in this scenario, what you've just seen, what do
you do next?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
Just for safety.
We do or don't know.
We don't know how manyoccupants are in the vehicle.
I know he didn't have that darka tent on there, but I'm going
to treat it as more than one,just with my training experience
in law enforcement, and I'mgoing to, as quickly as I can,
reposition my vehicle so it'ssafe for everybody.
Don't know how this is going toend.
He's ultimately decided to makethis pit maneuver, hopefully

(35:37):
following within his policiesand procedures at his police
department or sheriff's office,and get repositioned.
And then I'm going to.
I'm going if it were me.
I'm going's no weapons involved.
Temporarily detain him, figureout what's going on, make sure
that there's no medical.
Again, I don't know the historyon this.
I've unfortunately gotten intoone of these and the driver was
deaf and had a lot of issuesspeaking and was used to seeing

(36:01):
lights and sirens and ambulanceson main thoroughfares in a
large metropolitan area anddidn't think I was behind him to
stop him.
So it went for about a mile butit was quickly discovered he
just had an impairment and oncethat impairment was discovered,
we were able to startcommunicating, digressing the
situation and allowing him to goon his way.
But we've got to run that inour heads in law enforcement.

(36:22):
We don't know if there may be amedical background reason on
why this is going on.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
This is a great question by Tim Wait.
Don't most departments have toask to pit like a supervisor, or
is it just a choice any officercan make?

Speaker 2 (36:38):
So and I'll just add to that on what I know of it,
across the country there'spolicies and procedures, mostly
in these municipalities andsheriff's offices.
They will go by and if it fallswithin that policy and they can
make a judgment call right thenand there, instead of
exacerbating more time they can,they can execute that, that pit
maneuver to stop it right thenand there, as long as they can

(36:59):
articulate in their report lateron what's going on.
While communicating withcommunication centers and I'm
sure supervisors are aware ofthe pursuit A supervisor in most
agencies can terminate apursuit at any time.
They usually are payingattention and know what's going
on.

Speaker 3 (37:18):
I would completely agree.
I think at all times you'resupposed to follow departmental
policy, but there are times whenyou have to make decisions.
And the reason why you become apolice officer you have to do
your job and do the work.
And constitutional country girlnews such a long name my tongue

(37:42):
is twisted every time I say it.
I want to pit people Every timeI drive.
I completely agree.
Especially on the way acrossSan Francisco Today, I felt bad
for the Uber driver.
So Alright, let's move forwardand see what they have.
No.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Hands up, hands up.
All in successful position, allin successful position.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
Now we're at it Still on cattle, or did we get on TV?

Speaker 4 (38:27):
I'm channel.
We're making contact now.

Speaker 5 (38:29):
Clear Making contact EMS ASAP.
Ems ASAP 4-8, send EMS priorityone.
He caught himself in his neckClear Cut to the neck.
Ems priority one Zach Clear.

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Cut to the NAC-US for 81.
I'm going to take two secondsof this.
I have a problem safety-wisejust how I instruct officers
being in some bad situations inthe past to get out of that
vehicle and immediately approach, unless they have really good
knowledge of who this person is,which I don't think that any

(39:10):
way.
Approaching the vehicle thatfast, directly after a pit to me
I have a problem with lookingat that and definitely that
would be some, unless that's howthey do at this agency is a
norm.
But I want to allow the dust tosettle, get our positions and
call that person out the lesschance of somebody getting hurt.
Just an educated opinion onthat, von.

(39:31):
What's your thoughts on theending of that?

Speaker 6 (39:33):
Yes, I would just and I hate to say this, we do this
every time is I need to hearfrom the officers, because one
thing I did see is remember theofficer's SUV was in front of
the suspect vehicle at the endof the pit and then they crossed
paths.
I have to imagine that theofficers are looking very
intently at that driver asthey're rolling back past each
other, and if they saw somethingthat looked like the medical

(39:55):
emergency, looked like the guywas unconscious, that would make
a lot of sense to me thatthey're going to get up there
quick.
They did have their guns out,so I would just ask them you
know, help me understand yourdecision, because I suspect all
of them at the end of a highrisk, at the end of a car chase,
is going to a high risk carstop.
Something.
Something changed their mind,something was different.
So I just find out from theofficers what was it?

(40:16):
And then, watching that thatin-car dash cam, I at least saw
that they had an opportunity totake in information that we
don't have from the camera,opportunity to take in
information that we don't havefrom the camera.
I just want to know what thatis, and it may make perfect
sense once they tell you which,by the way, for all of you, when
we look at cases, it'ssometimes just a single fact
that an officer knew that willchange the entire outcome of our
analysis.
So that's where I would startis figure out what is it you

(40:38):
guys saw that made that decision.
Make sense to you.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Alan, you have thoughts on that?

Speaker 3 (40:47):
I agree.
You know the one thing thatkind of spoke out to me as I'm
watching it.
You know this is not in my neckof the woods of Texas and where
I'm from, this is not aneveryday environment for me, and
so if I'm dealing with snow andice, sometimes you get lost in

(41:10):
the environment you're workingin and not dealing with the norm
.
And so if all of a sudden I'mdealing with snow and ice, it's
hard to stay focused in themoment of keeping yourself safe
and doing it the way you shouldbe doing it, versus getting
sucked into the incident, ifthat makes sense what I'm saying

(41:31):
.

Speaker 6 (41:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
Supervisor is always I mean,you hear this a lot like slow
things down, create space, buytime, and you're buying time not
just because it's safer for youto assess, but you're buying
information, and the moreinformation we have.
Create space, buy time.
And you're buying time not justbecause it's safer for you to
assess, but you're buyinginformation, and the more
information we have, the betterdecisions we make.
So you know, for these guys tohave closed the gap so quickly
again, that seems inconsistent,with all of us thinking, hey, at

(41:57):
the end of this car chase,that's not likely how we would
train a cop to do it.
Something's different.
I'd like to know what that is.
Um, and I'm actually prettyconfident in this one, they
probably had something, but Idon't know.

Speaker 3 (42:09):
Yeah, there's something.
We don't know about this, butyou know, if there's blood
coming from his neck and youknow, I will say you know
visibility, things like that.
If they were able to see andrecognize its blood from, you
know as far away as they are,you know I can see how they rush

(42:29):
to it.

Speaker 6 (42:29):
So Sure Think about from a from a liability
standpoint.
I hate to do that.
But if, if I find out thatthese cops when they crashed all
the guy was non-conscious, Imean they created, they created
the medical emergency right.
So now we we create it, we wetake responsibility for it,
right, we've got to startrendering medical attention as
soon as we have sufficientcontainment and control to do

(42:50):
that.
If I found out in their reportsthat as he went by he was
unconscious and they decided tostand back and do a high-risk
felony car stop and he dies likethat, well that's a problem too
.
So I think they've got to makethat judgment call on the other
ones on the scene.
So that's what I'd be lookingfor.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
This is a you know, tim.
I think the pit was completelyunnecessary.
Maybe they did not know thearea snow on the side of the
roads.
There's still no place to pullover safely.
In my opinion, and I you know,one of the things that we do
here in the lives is not so muchsecondhand quarterback of the
incident is we're trying to callit as we see it, as the call

(43:30):
comes out, and I truly think inthis scenario there's some
things of unknown, because inthe upper north, how many times
do you see a two man unit?
I think we're we're working anincident that there's some more
knowns that we're not aware of,and so they may have felt like

(43:51):
it was the time that thesituation maybe to be stopped.

Speaker 6 (43:56):
Yeah, when you talk about intent here and I think
Tim's bringing that up is likewhen we're doing a risk
assessment, part of of the riskassessments, what's the intent
of this guy?
We're trying to do a pitmaneuver on um he, he, instead
of going right, he made multipleturns and I think this was cut,
so the chase was much longer.
So when you start to see a guywho's supposed to pull over to
the right, instead he's making aleft and he's making another

(44:18):
left and he's accelerating away.
The officers don't know what'sin his head.
But now, now all they can do ismake reasonable inferences
about that conduct.
And what cops do is they lookfor, as Lynn Weston will say,
from SLC Squared.
You guys should be followingSLC Squared if you're not.
But Lynn Weston was talkingabout baselines and anomalies
off the baseline.

(44:38):
All that means is, as a cop,you start to get used to what
normal looks like.
Right, there's a, a range ofnormal, and when you see
somebody who's acting outsidethat range of normal, those are
called anomalies, right?
Somebody who goes turns leftinstead of pulling over to the
right, well, that's an anomalyoff the baseline.
There was probably quite a fewof those here.
So the idea that you don't dothe pit maneuver because it
wasn't sure if there was a placeto turn over one.

(45:00):
I think we're handicappedbecause we didn't see the full
chase, how many places therewere to pull over.
So I'm not, I'm not prepared tomake that assumption yet, but I
would say I saw him turn into acenter lane and make a left
hand turn, which tells me whenhe had plenty of straightaway to
go, which tells me it would bereasonable for the officer to
infer he's not trying to find asafe place, he's actually trying

(45:22):
to evade.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
At that point, and I also don't know the speeds Right
and I'd also don't know thespeeds Right, and that that's
one thing I wish we did have.
I wish I wish once we we gaveour our two cents opinion on
these things with our, ourcombined experience.
I wish we could sit there andlook at a a case file on on how
it's.
You know already how it'salready gone to CID after other
things were unlocked.

(45:43):
What did we miss Just becausethat's a video?
That's a small little picturewindow of what's going on with
limited information.
I love to be able to seein-story stuff based on the
officer's reaction during theactual situation that's going on
in this incident.
So, vaughn, I know you get todo that with all kinds of things

(46:04):
.
I do my due diligence and afterwe get off this, I'll go pull
each one of these videos andthen I'll Google and try to look
up whatever's been publiclyavailable, but you're not always
going to find the informationthat you're looking for on those
.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Vaughn, I I kind of want your opinion on this one.
Ryan Holzen Holzen, the policechases should only be for
violent felonies.
How would you respond to that?

Speaker 6 (46:34):
Certainly for violent felonies.
Well one.
I'm going to try to be the mostreasonable person in these
conversations, and I join otherreasonable people in that, and
I'll say this it depends onwhere it's occurring at.
But I can tell you here's whatthe challenge is, and I
mentioned it earlier whensomebody runs from a suspected
misdemeanor or a suspected tagviolation, just a traffic

(46:55):
ordinance the fleeing from thatis disproportionate to the
underlying offense, thesuspected underlying offense.
Cops see so frequently thatwhen someone runs from you they
are not running for themisdemeanor, they're not running
for the tagline of the traffic.
It is reasonable to infer thatwhen someone evades they are
evading for at least a felony.
And so perhaps it's not aviolent felony, maybe it's a

(47:19):
stolen car, maybe it's a youknow name, your felony,
nonviolent felony.
But society as a whole has todecide are we rule of law or not
?
Because, officers, whensomebody runs, it's the
traditional law and orderinterests are crime detection,
crime prevention, lawenforcement, the preservation,

(47:40):
identity, discovery, identityand preservation of evidence,
warrants, executions, um and onand on, and the efficient
administration of justice.
So when someone takes offrunning in the car and you just
let him go, you have justabandoned all those other law
enforcement and governmentinterests, and maybe you should.
You know, in some cities it'sjust way too dangerous to chase

(48:01):
people in those congested areas.
You're going to lose all thoseother government interests
because, on balance, the threatto the community is greater in
the pursuit itself and so it's aconstant balance that has to
take place.
Um, it's not an easy answer, butwhat we have seen obviously is
those age areas that havenon-pursuit policies.
Bad guys quickly learn that andall they do is run.

(48:24):
They just run and they driverecklessly and that hasn't
worked out and agencies will endup reversing those because
you're just training the bad guyto know if they go 21 miles an
hour over the speed limit youhave to back off.
So definitely for violentfelonies, but I think almost
every cop who's been involved inthe job more than two years

(48:45):
knows that people don't run justfor the underlying traffic
offense itself.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
Sometimes they do, but that's rare.
Well, and I think one of the Ithink it's one of the first day
things we're taught in thepolice academy is totality of
the circumstances and everysituation we run into.
We have to weigh, you know, thepublic's risk, the suspect's
risk, our risks, thedepartment's equipment's risks,
and weigh those and balance itand see what's most important.

(49:18):
And then we have a you knowcommand staff behind us that are
, you know, weighing differentrisks, and so I think it all
comes into play.
I want to give Patrick truelove a little bit of love here.
Banning, can you answer thisone for me please, sir, let's
see you know this show is.

(49:42):
It's not our show.
This show is about the peoplein the chat and they keep us in
check and they keep the show andmake it what it is, and so I
very much appreciate you guys.
Bear with me, I'm not thenormal person reading through
the comments and trying to keepthe ball rolling, like Eric is a

(50:03):
wonder at this, and so I'mworking on it, guys, so I
appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
And it doesn't matter which position I put it in.
I've got stuff in the way of mysmall screen.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
I've heard, if you stop safely, call 911 and convey
that to the dispatcher, to theofficer.
What are your thoughts onstopping safely?
You know, if you don't feelsafe at the moment, can you call
dispatch and you know, hey, Idon't feel safe and you know

(50:35):
what are your options in that ifyou are in the, you know if you
are the person being pulledover.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
I don't have a problem if somebody calls nine,
one one.
You know today's day and agedoing traffic stops.
You're going to have people onthe phone.
I'd prefer, obviously, you know, if this is an increased risk
type of stop, I'd prefer peoplebe off the phone until we're
done concluding whateverbusiness it is on.
Why the why the stop wasstarted to begin with?

(51:07):
Just because the old age sayingare they calling somebody else
to the scene?
What's going on?
We don't have all the details.
We don't want to make this abigger incident than what it
truly is, just being a trafficstop there.
For a while I was running in acompletely unmarked car on duty,
on patrol, doing narcotics,stolen vehicle type stuff, and I
had a couple of ladies callingon and I encouraged that I'm not

(51:28):
in a marked vehicle and theonly reason I was doing the
traffic stops is I couldn't geta marked unit there quick enough
before this vehicle was goingto roll into another
jurisdiction and I already hadthe probable cause and one of
them I had a felony warrant onand the other one already had
probable cause for the stop andthey thought that I was going to
come up there yelling at them.
They're on the phone withdispatch.

(51:48):
Dispatch was quick enough toget with me on the radio.
You know, officers, I believewe're on the phone right now
with your violator that you havestopped.
Just FYI.
They're trying to confirm ifyou're a police officer and do
your thing and I stand back andI've got a good view on the car
and do your thing and I standback and I've got a good view on
the car.
And once that confirmation wasin, I saw that phone went down.

(52:09):
I went up and concluded what Iwas doing on the stop itself.
But you as a person, as acitizen out there, if you have
doubts on an unmarked car,absolutely pull over where it's
well lit.
I'm trying to cover thisquestion and how it can be
construed in different ways.
If you feel that you need tocall 911 for your safety, call
911 for your safety, even leaveit on speakerphone On these

(52:31):
large, large agencies.
If you're in a really big city,you're going to go to what's
called a 911 call take center.
You're going to say you're on atraffic stop, so they're going
to have to look on anotherscreen see what officers have
initiated traffic.
They're going to have to lookat the location from what the
caller is telling them andthey're going to try to get this
information as quick aspossible, and then that police
dispatcher in that large agencyis going to have to transmit

(52:53):
something, some sort ofcommunication, to that primary
officer making the stop, and itmay be a little bit of a delay.
So so bear with those 911 calls.
If it doesn't happen instantlyand you can explain to the
officer he's walk, I'm on thephone with 911 to verify who you
are and I don't.
You know there may be someofficers that take offense to
that.
Personally, I don't takeoffense to that because we're

(53:15):
all out here to protect you guys.
And if you feel threatened in amanner on a traffic stop and
you want to verify some stufffor me, go ahead and verify.
It Doesn't bother me a bitVaughn.
What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 6 (53:28):
Yeah, I mean you're.
It's kind of like you'reassuming the risk that you're
going to be right.
I hate to say this, but there'ssome prosecutors who will
charge you if you don't pullover right away.
I don't care if you call or not.
There's other ones who aregoing to exercise prosecutorial
discretion.
There's to exerciseprosecutorial discretion.

(53:49):
There's cops who are going toget irritated because you didn't
pull over right away, becausethey're supposed to choose where
you stop safely.
They choose.
They're supposed to in training, not hit their lights until
they've identified that there'sa safe place for you to pull
over at um.
So they've already done thatcalculation in theory, um.
So those are just kind of thesecond and third effects of the
risk that the driver's taking ifhe doesn't want to pull over
right away and he wants toconfirm um.
Now, having said that, look we,we work cases across the country

(54:10):
and there's there's placeswhere you know there's evidence
that some of these cops are minigangs and these people have
every reason to be terrified ofthe police in those areas.
Now, luckily, those are aminuscule amount, but I've
talked to these people.
I've actually talked to thesupervisors of some of these

(54:31):
agencies who want the federalgovernment to come in because
they can't control their roguecops.
So if you're in one of thoseareas and you're getting pulled
over and you're like I'm goingto go find a well-lit area, I'm
going to have lots of cameras,I'm not contagious, then you're
assuming risk when you do that.
But it might be a risk worthassuming, is my point.
Um, but ordinarily I mean pullover.
When the officer tells you topull over, he's supposed to be,

(54:53):
or she's supposed to be, pickinga spot that's safe to do that.
Um, but I have also seen thatwhere they call 911, hey, is you
sure that's a cop behind me?
Um, if you're in an unmarkedcar particularly, uh, that's
just.
That's just something you haveto assume may happen with some
regularity.
It doesn't matter that you knowyou're the police.
One of the things they did forus that was actually quite

(55:16):
eyeopening in the academy wasthey had you drive a car with
the windows rolled up and yourradio on not super loud, just up
.
And you had to.
You couldn't look in yourmirrors, you had to know, you
had to listen, for when you knewthe cop was behind you and the
cop, all he was going to do waspass you.
That cop was passing you beforeyou actually could hear the cop
.
Now I want you to imagine thatyou're just driving along,

(55:39):
you're not looking in yourmirrors and there's a cop buying
an unmarked car with those evensmaller lights going and maybe
a good siren, I don't know.
Sure the officer should betaking into account that that
might be one of thepossibilities.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Sure, and I don't know the exact study, just
speaking in reference to lightsand sirens.
I got really interested in itwhen I was working patrol in the
Metroplex because I got to seeit unfold in front of me.
But technically, and I don'tknow the speed, there's other
variables buildings, mounts, thedecibel alarm or the audible
from the actual police siren off.

(56:13):
But you can outrun that siren.
You can get to a speed that'sso great on a highway or on a
road to where your siren is.
I'm not going to call it nulland void, but you're outrunning
it.
By the time a human being canreact to that siren.
If you're in sight and there'snot a quick enough action taken,
it's a bad accident.
It's just another tool on thetool belt in what we do to try

(56:34):
to warn the public that anemergency vehicle is coming
through.
And they have progressed withthat with different ambulance
companies and different lawenforcement vehicles to where
they're installing things calledthumpers and these are actual
decibeled uh base element typesound wave.
To where I'm guilty of it inhigh school, to where I had, you
know, 12 solo bear 12, uhspeakers in the back, to where

(56:58):
it was probably why I'm hard ofhearing now that in the Marine
Corps uh to where.
If an ambulance got behind me,if I didn't catch it in a mirror
and I wasn't paying attentionis because I was the goofball
that was driving by the housemaking the crap shake off the.
And now I get pissed off everytime somebody drives by here and
does it and I'm like God, thatwas me 30 years ago but as

(57:21):
technology is getting better onthe sirens, but it's just, it's
just another sense that we'retrying to give out for a human
body to pick up to either getout of the way or yield and
Vaughn.
That's a very good point.
We did the same thing in theAcademy and they had little
slippers that they put over themirrors all of them and blinders
on the side of the glasses andyou had to, basically you had to

(57:41):
tell when that, when that copwas behind you from going around
a small road course, not evenfast and it's not as soon as you
think it would be, and it'skind of scary.
And that made me think aboutthat.
Every time I initiated mylights and siren to go help
somebody my reactionary gap oncoming up on things.
It can get dangerous reallyquick.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
And the last thing you want to do is take a life
going to save a life.
So, um so mr bill fold asked thequestion from last week's show.
We watched a situation inflorida, and florida implemented
a new law on how far apedestrian has to stay back from
an incident.
I don't know if you saw thefootball player or the, the
Olympic athlete that got tooclose to the scene and ends up
getting arrested.
And so Florida has a 25 footrule on how close you can be to

(58:40):
the get you know, to the actualofficers doing their job.
And so Mr Belfold wants to knowwhat your opinions are on that
Vaughn and what are theparameters when there's a.

(59:04):
We all were taught the you know21 foot rule, which we all know
is uh, a give and take uh, butyou know setting a number to it
is a problem for me, because Ithink sometimes the public and
the crowd can be closer whenyou're working a a big uh after
a Super Bowl or something event,and then you know there's when
you're working a big after SuperBowl or something event, and

(59:26):
then you know there's whenyou're you know it's a whole
nother safety issue when you letthe public get you know beyond
30 feet from you, you know howdo you know what's too close?

Speaker 6 (59:41):
Yeah, I think the 25 feet adds clarity.
But I understand the underlyingpurpose and look, there's some
jurisdictions where you havethings called lawful police
orders or obstruction orinterference and there's no set
law enforcement purpose.
That if I have to maintain myfocus to do adequate

(01:00:08):
communication, de-escalation,persuasion I'm doing threat
assessments, risk assessments ona subject during a Terry stop
or investigative detention.
That's where my focus,retention needs to be.
And if people get to come upand constantly be assessing that
some barrier, some imaginarybarrier, that's pulling my
attention so that I have to turnand give them a lawful order.
Hey, I need you to back up onthe sidewalk.

(01:00:29):
I don't know what the sidewalkdistance is, but I need you to
get far enough back that I canfocus my attention over here and
not have to worry about youover here.
Because especially where I wasworking I mean, depending on
what this guy had, it wasn'tuncommon for people to come run
interference, for him Right Tostart pulling focus and also
this guy's destroying evidence,taking off running or we're

(01:00:50):
getting assaulted, and so it'sjust this constant 360 degree
field of vision and if I don'thave enough back officers, I'm
constantly just giving lawfulorders and then arresting people
for failing to obey lawfulorders.
So the 25 foot principle Iunderstand the concept behind it
.
The 25 foot rule is to justallow officers to focus on the
task at hand and not end upmultitasking and splitting their

(01:01:10):
attention, because from a humanperformance standpoint we don't
do that well and we have tobring this up in court quite a
bit.
Actually, where officers can do, can give orders related to
those things that areinterference, why we can get
people out of cars, put peoplein cars, tell them to turn their

(01:01:30):
radio down, tell them to putthe cigarette out.
If I'm lawfully detaining you,I can give you orders that are
related to a legitimate lawenforcement purpose and
oftentimes that is themaintaining a focus of attention
for adequate communication,de-escalation, risk assessment,
threat assessments, weaponidentification.
So there's a lot of legitimatereasons for doing it.
I think the 25-foot rule addsclarity to it.
I don't think it's arbitrary.

(01:01:52):
Maybe they could have made it20.
Maybe they could have made it15.
I don't know.
They chose 25.
I don't know if it was tiedinto the 21-foot principle or
what we use as a 30-footprinciple.
All that is is telling you howfast someone can move in.
1.7 seconds, right, but that'skind of irrelevant if you don't
see them starting to move in thefirst place right so they're 25

(01:02:13):
feet behind me.
I don't care.
The 21 foot or 30 footprinciple is irrelevant, because
I'm not seeing the start signal, I'm not hearing a starting gun
.
So, um, yeah, that's my I.
I heard, I saw the wordfoolishness.
I understand the legitimatepurpose behind it, but I also
understand how, if you're aninnocent person and I'll make
this point, shut up Innocentpeople are the hardest people to

(01:02:35):
control as a cop, because youhave a legal right to control
them.
Because the Supreme Court saidwe must maintain unquestioned
command at the scene of ourinvestigations.
So that's a traffic stop, it'sa Terry stop, it's an arrest.
The Supreme court recognizesthat the cop and the community
are safer when the policemaintain unquestioned command at
the scene of the investigation.
So, with that being the case,an innocent person who doesn't

(01:02:58):
think they're interfering,they're just trying to see
what's going on.
Maybe they're documenting it,um, which they all have a right
to do and you tell them hey, Ineed you to step back.
It's, it's it kind of assaults,their innocence, like why are
you talking about?
And the problem is, they knowthey're innocent and you don't
right, so you?
There's that constant tensionand that's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
That's an outstanding answer, bond, and thank you for
that.
And alan, if you go down thereand there was a what do you call
it Super chat five USDsomething.
That was a good question theperson had.
I want to put it up there forall three of us to discuss for a
moment before we roll this nextvideo.

Speaker 8 (01:03:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Comments are coming in and I love that we have so
many coming in.
I try to pay attention to ourto our folks that are on here
and read over here, and they'reall important, but I want to
make sure we get these up thereso I can read this the way it is
here.
What if your porch is less than25 feet from the street Stop?
Could somebody arrest someonesitting on their porch filming?

(01:04:00):
Here's Banning's opinion onthat.
That's your castle.
Here's Banning's opinion onthat.
That's your castle.

(01:04:20):
And if your specific location isnot the I hate to use the word
target of, if that's what youprefer to do, you want to get a
high dial up lens and focus andlaunch your drone in that area
of your property to watch thestop?
That's your property.
You want to film 100%.
I'm going to tell you, Ibelieve that you have the right

(01:04:40):
to do that, unless toldotherwise.
There may be some very smallthings on there.
I can't think of one now thatyou may not be able to do that,
unless told otherwise.
There may be some very smallthings on there.
I can't think of one now thatyou may not be able to do that.
But by all means, if you're onyour porch and your eyes can see
the public, you can put acamera and zoom those same
public areas.
So I have no problem withanybody sitting on their porch,
or in public for that matter,filming.

(01:05:02):
I've had a lot of people come upto my stops.
Don't care, regardless of thefeat.
I'm familiar with a lot of themin those areas that would come
up and do that.
Sometimes I would ask them toget out of traffic and stand up
on the side, staying the samedistance away, and allow them to
continue to film.
I have no problem with peoplefilming me.
To me it's another camera angle.
If something were to go wrong,that's something else.

(01:05:24):
An investigator can pull, orthe media can pull to show that
Banning was in within guidelinesof what he's supposed to do as
a peace officer.
But, vaughn, what are yourthoughts on filming?

Speaker 6 (01:05:35):
I don't know the statute, but I have thoughts.
So I want us all to try to justa little.
So I'm foot chasing a guy right, he's a violent felon.
Everyone here should agree.
I get to foot chase this guy.
He tried to shoot somebody.
I tackle him in your front yardand we land on your porch.
Right, we're wrestling withthis guy on the steps of your
porch and you come outside.

(01:05:55):
Does our community, do all of us, believe that a cop can look at
that homeowner and say get backin your house while he's
wrestling with that guy?
And is that a lawful order thatyou have to obey?
Or do you get to say it's myporch, I can do what I want?
Does it matter if it's thesteps on the porch or the porch
itself?
Does it matter if it's, let'ssay, the guy runs into the house
and you chase him into thehouse and it's not his house and

(01:06:16):
you come in, can the officertell you to get back in your own
living room?
We do it on domestics.
If I have a legal right to bewhere I'm at and I'm engaged in
a lawful detention, lawfularrest does where you are at
relative to your privateproperty, matter.
Relative to the requirement foryou to obey a lawful order.
Now that may be jurisdictiondependent.

(01:06:36):
I learned that a long time ago.
The stuff we could do where Iworked if you didn't obey a
lawful order, you got arrestedit was interference, obstruction
, disobeying.
We had different options.
Up in the Northeast they lookedat me like I was crazy because
if you gave a lawful order, thatperson didn't have to do
anything.
He could interfere, he couldobstruct, he could disobey,
unless he did it with violence.
And I was dumbfounded because Iwas like how do you guys do

(01:07:00):
your job right?
You your job right.
You have to wait to get hitbefore you can enforce a lawful
order.
So I would play that out.
I don't know what the statuteis.
I think the spirit behind it is, if I'm on the sidewalk in
front of your house and you wantto come out on your porch I
don't know the area I can thinkof some places where I worked,
but I wouldn't want anybody fromsome of those places coming out

(01:07:20):
taking shots at me or gettinginvolved.
But those are just my thoughtson it.
I think, as a prosecutor, ifyou're out on your porch and you
ended up getting a ticket orget it arrested for it, then I
would.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
I would probably use some prosecutor discretion there
defense to prosecution oneverything that's in the book,
right?
So?

Speaker 6 (01:07:38):
yeah, that's exactly right, but those are my thoughts
.
I think I think we get sowrapped up and I saw a curtilage
.
Well, cops, cops, enforce law.
Law not only on your curtilage,but in your living room, in
your bedroom, right?
If somebody takes off running,I don't care if you run into
your house.
I have a legal right to bethere.
I can give lawful orders that Iwould have to obey if someone
came into my house.

(01:07:58):
So it's not unique to thepolice or the community.
We're all the community at thatpoint.
So those are my thoughts on it.
I think it would have to fleshit out a little bit.
I haven't seen the actualstatute.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Well, and I think that's where sometimes what we
have to do in law enforcement isnot pretty and we have to get
the job done as safe as we canand sometimes that means we have
to yell and scream at somebodyinside their own house.
So me and the suspect are safeand it's not probably what

(01:08:32):
somebody is going to want tohear and the person videotaping
it and puts it on YouTube andeverybody's like, oh, I can't
believe this officer did thatand at the end of the day, you
know he was looking at his bestinterest and the best interest
of the suspect, because themoment that you know we take

(01:08:52):
possession of a suspect, youknow they're ours and we have to
maintain safety of them and us.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
Sure, and Vaughn made a great point.
Great point and that is a scenebeing transitioned from its
starting location to anunfortunate citizen's home, and
we're always taught in theacademy and throughout our law
enforcement career.
When it is your scene andVaughn said the right thing

(01:09:17):
there, in law enforcementterminology you have a legal
reason to be there.
You're not there breaking thefourth minute.
You're not there busting down.
You're there for a legal reason.
Then, yes, you must, for safetyreasons for everybody Now the
homeowner, the neighbors,everybody that's involved.
We've got to take control ofthat scene.
And it's not about a I have abadge and I'm in control.

(01:09:39):
It's a let's make sure we allgo home safe at night.
This person may have crashedthrough your front door.
I'm trying to remove thisperson now from your house.
You may know or not know theperson, but until this scene is
secure, nobody's moving.
You may be directed to go backin your bedroom for a moment or
sit on a couch, and that is nota power trip, that is a control

(01:10:00):
for safety measures.
Believe me, we want to get thisperson out of your home as
quick as possible and back outon the public street next to our
car or wherever the sceneoriginated, and go on.
But that is a fantastic.
I love that you brought that up, vaughn, because I didn't even
think about that in the momentof that question.

Speaker 6 (01:10:17):
It pops into my head, though, that we foot chase
people in the strangers' houses,and the strangers were not
friendly to us Back then, youknow, before cell phones even
were popular, they would come inand rip their own phones out of
the wall because we had anofficer who lost his radio on
the foot chase.
So he's in the house, he's likecall 911, call 911.

(01:10:38):
He's fighting with the guy intheir living room, and instead
of calling 911, they rippedtheir own phone out of the wall
and started attacking theofficer.
They didn't know who this guywas.
So the officers are aware thatevery time we get around
unfamiliar people the onlybecause we can't tell by looking
at somebody whether they'refriendly or they're going to
attack us we engage in what arecalled tactical sops.
Right, they?
It means we apply themregardless of the people who are

(01:11:00):
involved.
That means, if I ask you tostep back, it means, can I have
you put your hands on thesteering wheel for me while we
do the traffic stop?
I don't not accusing you oftrying to murder me, I'm just
saying I don't know you.
And we are so frequently insituations where strangers
become really hostile to usreally fast, and so in people's
living rooms is no exceptionWe've had.

(01:11:22):
We got into a shootout becausethere was a.
I mean, it doesn't matter why,but in somebody's front yard.
The people in the house cameout and tried to defend the
suspect who had tried to pull agun on the cops and then ends up
being a shooting.
But it was on their curtilage,it was at their house and they
would come and try to enforcetheir property rights, telling
the cops to get out of theirproperty.
And they came with guns andpeople got shot.

(01:11:43):
So this kind of an op tempo iswhy cops want to maintain
control of the scene, regardlessof where it ends up.
So if they have a legal rightto be there, I think it's
probably more important to be acommunity education thing.
Hey, by the way, when the copsshow up, you know chasing some
bad guy into your house.
God forbid that happens.
I don't think that's going tohappen to 99.9 of the people in

(01:12:03):
in their entire lives, but insome communities it's not that
uncommon and if it happens,understand you're still required
to obey lawful orders of thatpolice officer and I'm standing
in my living room is not adefense.

Speaker 3 (01:12:15):
So before we go to the next video, I have actually
been in this situation.
Stan the man, and I know everyofficer on here when I say what
if cases, how we all cringebecause we could, what if?
To death.
But if a guy, someone, into thehouse, the perp didn't know, so

(01:12:36):
the guy goes into the house,perp didn't know him, and the
homeowner has a bunch of blow onthe coffee table.
Does the homeowner get introuble?
I'll let one of you two answerthat question.

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
I can tell you a live one that has occurred in the
past on an unfortunatecircumstance, and it wasn't blow
on the table.
It was, if I remember correctly, four or five rolled joints on
the table here in the state ofTexas, which it's still illegal
and it was, at that time, topossess, and the person that we
were going after was a reallybad person.

(01:13:10):
Um, and ended up landing in aback bedroom.
Uh, nobody was in the bedroomat the time.
The homeowners weren't home.
They did have some party goersthat were there.
Um, got the lead party.
This is banning.
This is like I got the leadparty goers.
Attention, hey, that needs togo, and it needs to because I'm

(01:13:33):
focused on the really bad guythat I have right now.
But however, that's in mypresence review, I have a legal
reason to be here.
However, I'm making thedecision not to act on that
right now, but while it's in mypresence, we need to make it go
down the drain, and then thatwas the decision that I made at
the time presence we need tomake it go down the drain, and
then that was the decision thatI made at the time.
Was it the right decision?
I don't know, but I was notgoing to hem up the people in
the house that we just blastedthrough over that.

(01:13:54):
I've never been big on the wholeenforcing small amounts of
marijuana and that's just beenbanning.
Have I done it in the past?
Yes, there's always a trainingin law enforcement.
When you have to go and do thatNow metric tons and several
hundred pounds, different storyThen we deal with it.
But with that specific case, no,I've assisted another agency

(01:14:17):
that a car crashed into aresidential apartment complex
and when they got in there thisis back in the early 2000s they
were in the middle of a methcook.
That was dealt with becausethat could have exploded.
There was myriad of factors.
It's a multi-person housingunit.
There were so many justhazardous materials that were

(01:14:38):
going on.
I think it was almost like afate stop that.
Nothing happened.
And these were some I'm goingto call them rookie cooks that
were doing some stuff and Ithink we possibly saved some
lives that night and destroyedthat.
Get that lab professionallytaken out.
But that's Banning's opinion.
Vaughn, what do you have onthat?
On contraband being in thehouse that you happen to pop

(01:15:00):
into legally because you'rechasing somebody?

Speaker 6 (01:15:02):
Yeah, so there's.
Obviously the standard is youhave to have a warrant for
somebody's house.
That's the presumption.
But there's exceptions, there'sexigent circumstances.
One of the exigentcircumstances was to chase
somebody into somebody's house.
Right, a third party runs intoa stranger's house.
That's, that's going to befairly well settled.
The police can chase thatperson into the house.
They don't need a warrant to goget them right.

(01:15:28):
Um, once they're in there,there's another.
There's another legal doctrinecalled plain view.
And what plain view doctrine is?
If you have a legal right to bewhere you're at and the
contraband nature of the item isimmediately apparent, I mean,
you look at it and you're like,yep, I got probable cause to
believe that's that's below, asyou said, um, then you can seize
it right.
And if you can seize it right,then on the spot you don't need
to get a warrant, you don't needto leave the house.
There's an exception to thewarrant requirement for plain

(01:15:48):
view, which means you have alegal right to be where you're
at and the contraband nature ofthe item is immediately apparent
.
So let me give you thedistinction.
Let's say you tackle the guy inthe front yard, you look over
and you see the blow on thewindowsill, on the other side of
the window, plain as day, itsays cocaine on it.
You can't reach through andgrab that.
And you cannot go into thehouse and grab that because,

(01:16:09):
even though it's in plain view,you don't have a legal right to
go inside to grab it at thatpoint and there's no exigency.
Now, if you see somebody pullthe curtain, they look at you,
they see the police, they lookat the cocaine and they pick it
up.
There's your exigency, becausedestruction of evidence is one
of the exigencies.
So this is a law school examquestion.
I've seen it several times.
That's the distinction.
You have a legal right to bewhere you're at and is the item

(01:16:31):
immediately apparent ascontraband?
If it is, you can seize it.
And if you can seize it thenyou can make the arrest as well.
So that is on top of exceptions.
It's just To Bannon's point.
I would just add something tothe rookie cops out there, to
the cops who might be tempted todestroy evidence.
That was some 90s stuff we didas well.
But bad guys say, hey, he tookmy dope, where's my dope?

(01:16:55):
In evidence?
And we're like well, we flushedit.
No, he didn't flush it, hestole it and he's selling it.
He's a corrupt cop.
They used to call him, you knowwhat officer, friendly, right,
right From about it or whatever,but the.
So we shifted that pretty quickwhen, when we would usually
think we were doing them a favorby getting rid of their
paraphernalia or letting themthrow away their small amounts
of dope, we stopped doing thatright away when the bad guys

(01:17:18):
started accusing of stealingtheir dope and selling their
dope.
All of a sudden, now everythinggot evidence and it would be
for destruction.
It was a little bit more workfor us, but it was just a
smarter way to do business oncethe community started getting
really litigious on us, sure.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
A constitutional country.
Girl wants to know how Fruit ofthe Poisonous Tree plays into
that.

Speaker 6 (01:17:43):
That's opposite.
Fruit of the Poisonous Tree iswhen an officer does something
illegal and seizes evidence, youcan't, you can't admit.
Typically the argument is youdon't get to admit the evidence
against the bad guy becausethere's the fruit of an illegal
search.
It's the fruit of the poisonoustree.
The illegal search was thepoisonous tree.
The other way you see thattypically is you beat a

(01:18:04):
confession out of somebody.
They tell you the dope is in myglove box of the four Taurus.
You go and you get the dope andthey say well, hold on.
The confession is illegalbecause it wasn't free and
voluntary, it was a product ofcoercion and because it was an
illegal confession that led youto that dope.
The dope is the fruit of apoisonous tree.
Illegal confession that led youto that dope.

(01:18:25):
The dope is the fruit of apoisonous tree, so that it's
kind of a fruit of the poisonoustrees of doctrine utilized
against the officer, not againstthe suspects.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
All right, so I'm about to move on.
But, harrison Brock, we've saidthis on almost every episode,
every episode do not trust thecops.
When the cops start talking toyou, stop talking.
I'm not giving legal advice,I'm just giving my opinion.
If I were pulled over, I'm notgoing to talk to the cops unless

(01:18:53):
the situation warrants it.
I'm only going to trust myself.
That's the only person I know Ican trust, 100% of the time.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
Sure All right, that's how my kids trust cops to
be cops.

Speaker 6 (01:19:08):
Cops don't have your best interest at heart.
They're not your defenseattorneys.
They're there to collectevidence and look.
Cops should be the best of yourcommunity, right, when all
things are going well, theyshould be the best.
But if my kid ever says whensomeone reads me my rights,
should I just talk to them likeno, no, you shouldn't talk to,
only talk to people who canaffect the outcome of your case.

(01:19:29):
Cops can't affect the outcomeof your case.
That's what prosecutors do.
So get your defense attorney totell your side of the story to
someone who can actuallyinfluence the outcome of it.
Now, downstream, maybe, if yougot good relationships, you got
a cop.
You want to share your story sothey can advocate for you've
got good relationships, you'vegot a cop.
You want to share your story sothat they can advocate for you.
I got it.
But ultimately, again, if myfamily member says I got pulled

(01:19:49):
over, he read me my rights,should I talk to the cop?
I'm going to be just like everyother parent.
Say no, call me.
We'll tell your story to peoplewho can actually influence the
outcome of your case.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Yeah, I always tell my kids I want my daddy.
That's their response.
All right, so here's this next,next video.
I do want to say thank you, asalways, to police activity.
We almost get all of our videosnow from police activity and

(01:20:20):
they do a really good job oftrying to get all the video
angles and everything and andgetting it posted.
It's pretty amazing how quicklythey get them all posted.
So, thank you, go sign up toPolice Activity if you're not,
and appreciate them.
They're not sponsors, but weappreciate what they do.

(01:20:40):
Oh stop, I didn't hit the rightbutton.
Rookie mistake here.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
I'm sure Alan's doing this because if I was trying to
do it, I'd put up a familymovie and be like, well, I don't
know how to change this, y'allare going to have to watch it
for a second.
He's got a lot more expertisein this field than I do and I
appreciate the trust.
Mr Belfold, and I appreciateyou always coming onto our show.

(01:21:35):
You've been a mainstay here.
Thank you very much and from meto you, I promise you that
there is a bazillion amazing lawenforcement officers out there
and I hope, within years to come, as this show grows, that you
see that.
I know I can't change your mindin months time, but hopefully,

(01:21:59):
as this show grows on you andmaybe we get to see some things
together and experience somestuff, you're going to see some
amazing law enforcement officershere across this country all
right.

Speaker 4 (01:22:12):
Sorry, the screen I'm looking at is not making us no,
I don't do you know what otherroad you're nearby or a business
you're at.
You're at Uh Mills Ave.
Fire E M S.
Please ple the space.
Uh, you know, I uh food lineOkay, give Okay, and what's

(01:22:42):
going on out there, ma'am, I'mdefinitely planning on doing
something stupid.
I'm sorry, I'm having a hardtime hearing you.
What did you say?
I said I'm definitely planningon doing something stupid.
Okay, what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
So what are we getting from that so far?
Gentlemen, If you were thedispatcher taking that call,
what?

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
I was muted and I didn't realize it.
Just from my experience, andkind of just listening to this,
I believe that we're going tohave a unfortunately, possibly a
suicidal person that is doingthe right thing and calling for
some help as an outcry.
That's.
That's the only thing I'mdetermining so far, Vaughn.

Speaker 6 (01:23:33):
Yeah, I mean, I worked as a crisis counselor
before I was a cop and thissounds like a call we would get
and yeah, it typically wouldturn into I want to hurt myself,
but it also could be I'm goingto hurt somebody else.
I think you shift in, yourdispatch is going to shift into
crisis counseling mode andinformation collection, which is
empathy, empathy, listen,listen, right, feeling,
reflection, empathy, listenuntil you start gathering some

(01:23:54):
information.
But, yeah, overwhelmingly, itends up it's going to be a what
we call signal for potentialsuicide call, but at this point
I'm listening, because it couldalso be suicide call, but at
this point I'm listening becauseit could also be.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
you could also pivot really quick.
Yeah, all right, there's a fewideas on my mind, but, um, I
don't know, I could probably gointo sphinx and, uh, go to the
cashiers and what I think.
So you're heading to Sphinx now?
Uh, yeah, okay, and what didyou say you were planning on
doing?
Um, I don't really want to sayOkay, I need to know what's

(01:24:32):
going on.
Though, I'm trying to help you.
Um, I don't really want to tell, but police should definitely
be around the area.
Okay, what's your clothingdescription?
All black and white pants and agray jacket.

(01:24:52):
Gray jacket, black and whitepants.
Yeah, do you have any weapons?
I do.
I have an ice.
Are you black, white orHispanic?
I'm black.
Is anybody under the influenceof drugs or alcohol?
No, then where are you at rightnow?

(01:25:13):
I'm at the Kmart, the emptyKmart, the closed one.

Speaker 3 (01:25:22):
So in this scenario, one of the things I want to
point out this is taking a longtime.
So far we're two minutes intothis call.
What I want viewers tounderstand behind the scenes if
there is in my departmentthere's not another dispatcher
One dispatcher is taking thiscall.

(01:25:42):
Plus they're getting officersheading that direction.
In a big department you're ableto continue on this call and as
the dispatcher you've gotsomebody else that's listening
to this call.
Some departments now have wherethey can listen to the calls

(01:26:03):
and send it to the unit's MDTmobile communicator in the car,
and so they can actually hearthis live call.
So officers are generallyalready responding to this
incident.
It's not going to be twominutes on the phone and then
we're responding to the call.

Speaker 2 (01:26:24):
Sure and just to add to that, just so people
understand.
I know there's a lot of buzzgoing around about real-lifetime
crime scene centers, which isan amazing implemented project
within these large cities acrossthe United States.
A lot of the times they have abutton or a way in the 911
dispatch center to prompt thereal lifetime crime center

(01:26:49):
monitor and what that means islook at location and what
they're going to do is they'regoing to pull up all the CCTV
cameras that may be publiclyavailable in that area for
officer safety.
Has this person unfortunatelymaybe hurt herself, already hurt
somebody else?
Has somebody hurt her?
What is the picture prior tolaw enforcement's arrival?

(01:27:13):
And those are very giftedagencies if you're able to get
that information to that officerprior to arrival.
But I love that technology isslowly starting to really pick
up to the lifetime crime centers.
I mean, these things areinvaluable assets if you can
properly deploy them within yourjurisdictions.

(01:27:34):
Go ahead, sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:27:37):
All right, go ahead Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:27:43):
Hey, alan, let me put your phone on, sorry.
Yes, sir, just real quick sopeople know.
So I'm the cop getting thiscall right now.
There's a couple of things I'mconcerned about, particularly as
a supervisor.
There's a thing called dispatchpriming, which means the
information that the dispatcheris willing to share with you is
going to kind of set yourexpectations for the call.
So right now we don't know ifit's suicide or she's going to

(01:28:05):
go rob one of the gas stations,right.
Or it's going to be an assault,or she's going to use the
assault to commit suicide, right.
We have no idea.
And dispatch has a really toughjob now.
They should be trying to get asmuch information as possible.
Officers are trained in thisconcept.
It's called musheen, it's likea Japanese term, means empty
mind.
It means try not to come to anyconclusions, because if the

(01:28:25):
dispatch leads us to believethis is just a suicide call,
we're going to come in as crisiscounselors.
And right now we don't knowwhether it's suicide or homicide
, we don't know if it's suicideor assault, and the officer's
approach to that is going to bevery different if a single piece
of information comes in.
Like you know, she sayssomething, I'm about to do
something stupid and I'm armedwith a knife and I'm going to

(01:28:46):
the gas station, that's.
Those little pieces ofinformation will start to paint
a very different picture thanjust hey, I'm about to do
something stupid.
She's called the police for areason, right, she wants help
it's almost like she wants,talked out of this at this point
.
This is where dispatch has ahuge role in in collecting
information and influence in theoutcome of these cases.

(01:29:07):
One in what they're selling herand two, what they end up
telling the officers.
And, and one of the things welook at as the definition of an
expert isn't that theyimmediately see and can evaluate
and know what the scene is, butthat they're very comfortable
operating in uncertainty.
Right?
They engage in tactical SLPs,operate in uncertainty, continue
to collect as much informationas possible and don't jump to

(01:29:29):
conclusions.
So I just want to throw thatout there.
This is one of those callswhere I would be telling my
people hey, let's slow down andget some containment, figure
whether this is a suicide orwhether this is a assault in
progress.

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
And so a little perspective on my side of it.
So I come from an agency withone dispatcher and in the
evening we're going to havethree officers on the streets in
a community about 10,000.
And so in this scenario, whileyou know dispatchers are trained

(01:30:03):
, you want to keep them talking.
You want to.
You know you don't want theline to go dead.
And so when she's givinginformation, when the suspect is
on the phone and giving thisinformation, the dispatcher's
tentatively going to be mutingthat.
And at the same time, if I hearmy dispatcher, you can hear

(01:30:24):
their voice.
And if they just give me anaddress I know that it's a high
alert call, that you know Idon't know what I'm going to,
but I know I need to get to thataddress.
You can just tell by theirvoice.
And so as soon as she can giveme more information, I can

(01:30:45):
generally tell by how she givesme the address.
If she's, you know she's on.
You know she's still talking tothe person, but I know I need
to get to that address.
I don't know what I'm going to,but I know I'm going to
something not good, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:31:00):
And and and kind of going back to what Vaughn was
was was stating uh, doing this,as long as I have, I've.
I've unfortunately had uhdispatchers that would insert or
what's the best way to say this, I married a dispatcher.
So, as respectful as I can,sometimes an opinion will come
across as fact in that CAD orcomputer aided dispatch message

(01:31:23):
that's going out to allresponding receiving that
dispatcher.
I believe we have a problem,we're entering other
circumstances on there and Ibelieve that's how Vaughn was
describing that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:42):
No, I completely agree with that.
I just wanted to add that nextpiece to it too.
Depending on the agency you'reworking at, I really think that
there's sometimes when,unfortunately, dispatchers don't
get to see the end of a call.
They don't know if somebodygets arrested, they don't know.
You know they deal with thetrauma at the very beginning of

(01:32:03):
it, and so then they treat everycall, whether it's a kitten up
in a tree or if it's an officergoing to a fatality, they're
treated all the same.
Are going to a fatality,they're treated all the same,
and so they don't.
Officers have a hard timeunderstanding what they're going
to in that incident.

Speaker 6 (01:32:21):
We even have a 10 code for that right.
I mean unknown trouble, right,cops?
This is not unusual to thosewho are just joining this.
These type of calls that youdon't know what's going on.
You just kind of got to get tothe area and figure it out.
That's just being a cop.

Speaker 2 (01:32:36):
You bet.
I mean I've gone to literally,unfortunately, hundreds of these
.
That's where you try to figureout based on what dispatch is
telling you.
There is some software anddifferent vendors out there that
are providing the audio, notquite live, maybe with a five
second delay to where an officercan actually hear this going to
a call, but there can be.

(01:32:56):
But that can be a double-edgedsword too, listening to what's
going on as the respondingenforcement force or helping
force that's going there.
I don't think that's the bestanswer to this either, but I
think it needs just to be factbasis on what they're hearing.
Put the facts down to get thatofficer exactly what you were
hearing, without opinion-based,to let that officer truly

(01:33:21):
develop a plan to where nobodygets hurt or the best possible
outcome.

Speaker 3 (01:33:27):
You know something that was.
You know when we're respondingto these calls and we, you know,
we want the outcome to you know.
I kind of lost my train ofthought, so we're just going to
move on.
All right, here we go.

Speaker 4 (01:33:53):
What's going on?
Why do you feel this way?
Um, I don't know.
You know just you know, there'salways times where something is
right.
Do you feel like suicidal?
I feel like anything ispossible at this point.
Are you thinking about killingyourself?
Uh, no, would you hurt mydeputies out there?

(01:34:19):
Yeah, I would.

Speaker 8 (01:34:24):
Did you call us?

Speaker 3 (01:34:26):
So that last question there.
Is that the right question toask?

Speaker 2 (01:34:34):
You know, I think, the question, you know, and we
could say her quarterback, thisdispatcher, she's doing the best
job.

Speaker 3 (01:34:40):
No, I completely agree.
I just want to ask, I want toknow that if, as the officer
responding, I want to know thatyou know, do you have any
ideations, using differentterminology to where everybody
can understand?

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
you know, are you wanting to hurt somebody other
than yourself?
Do you want to harm yourself?
These type of things?
I try not to use the wordsuicide, and that's just me.
I get a better response frompeople.
Are you wanting to harmyourself or hurt yourself,
period?
Are you wanting to see yourselfbleed?
And these are things that I'veused on scene speaking to people
to articulate whether or notthey need to see psychiatric

(01:35:13):
help, and a lot of these peopledo.
They need to see psychiatrichelp and a lot of these people
do.
But I've got to articulate theplan down to where they're truly
a danger to themselves, towhere, if they back out when
that ambulance gets there, orwe're rolling a squad to the
hospital to get them help andit's under a voluntary consensus
and once we get there, theydecide I don't want to go.
I want to make sure that I havearticulable circumstances to

(01:35:35):
put an emergency mentaldetention on this person so they
can truly get the help thatthey deserve for what's going on
in their life.
So, yes, I believe it's veryimportant the way we ask these
questions to other folks not anattorney by any stretch of the
imagination, but have done it,unfortunately, many, many, many
times.

Speaker 5 (01:35:53):
Yep.

Speaker 8 (01:35:56):
All right, what's going on this evening or this
morning?
What's going on, say?

Speaker 3 (01:36:01):
what what can the sheriff's office help you with,

(01:36:23):
ma'am?
So how does that make you feelwhen you're in the middle of
talking to somebody and a carrolls right up and now you can't
hear the person that you'retalking to?

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
yeah, it's uh, obviously some rudeness there
going on.
You know they're readingscreens coming in.
He's maybe somebody thatdoesn't like to walk far and
he's repositioning.
But yeah, the loud motor,especially on the Crown Vics.
When I first started, if aCrown Vic pulled up next to you
and that frigging radiator fanwas going, the conversation's

(01:36:52):
gone.
These chargers are loud notquite as loud as a Crown Vic or
a Tahoe, but yeah, positioningis very important on this.
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Sorry that bothered me.

Speaker 8 (01:37:06):
Do you need EMS for anything?
Okay.

Speaker 7 (01:37:18):
Okay, what's going on ?
What's going on today?
I want to start with this.

Speaker 5 (01:37:25):
I'm now your Baby.
Baby, what's going on today?

Speaker 8 (01:37:42):
How can we help you?
I'm David.
Did you call 911?
I did, yeah, okay, what did youcall 911 for?
Do you need a place to staytonight?
Do you need a place to staytonight?
Do you need a ride somewhere?
What can we do to help you?
That's what we're here for.

(01:38:03):
I don't think we're going tostay overnight, okay, well, so
far you haven't given us areason for you to need to go
either of those places.
So you called 911, I'm assumingbecause you need something.
What can we help you with?
You can just send a dispatcher,or if you need a ride somewhere.

(01:38:27):
It's cold outside.
If you need to get home or to afriend's house, we can help you
with that too.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
I think these officers are doing a really good
job.
Is there something that?
Do you think they're aware thatshe has a knife, or do you
think the dispatcher told themthat she had a knife?

Speaker 6 (01:38:52):
If you're asking me, I'm not sure.
Look, I think a one-year cophas to be able to operate like a
five-year cop, like a 10-yearcop in the same system In five
years.
You should be better at oneyear.
So we just look at it likethere are tactics that are
trained in law enforcement torespond to something like this
that we're not seeing.

(01:39:12):
Let me just put it that way.
There are tactics and trainingthat we're not seeing.
One of just put it that way.
There are tactics and trainingthat we're not seeing.
One of the things is you don'thave a head conversation when
someone's having a heart moment,right?
So it's the baseline,foundational concept of crisis
counseling.
This woman's call with a callfor help at crisis counseling,
it's a heart moment.
So what can I do for you?
What's your problem?
How can I solve this problemfor you right now is not the

(01:39:35):
approach you take with someonehaving a heart moment.
That's rational decision making, problem solving.
They need to just be in pure.
How are you doing?
Is everything okay?
What can we have?
Tell me about your experience?
You know, basically reallycompassionate, empathetic
engagement at this point, right,look, they didn't turn their
lights on.
I'm glad for that.
I wasn't as concerned aboutpulling up.

(01:39:56):
I don't know how far they areactually, um, they're keeping
their distance.
I think they must know she hasa knife or they.
They would have been a lotcloser, a lot faster, I think,
um, just with a 911 call.
So I'm assuming they know shehas a knife and she said she was
going to do something crazy.
Which means standoff distanceis great, having a barrier is
great.

(01:40:18):
I'm just not sure these guyshave the communication and
persuasion and counselingtraining to respond to someone
in crisis like this.
And I'll tell you from anofficer, safety standpoint this
could go south really fast.
Right, and you only get, youonly get, you know, like one
chance to build rapport very,very quickly.
And I put rapport in quotesbecause real rapport can't be,

(01:40:40):
can't be had that fast.
But that's my first take onthis is as a crisis counselor.
I'm just like, oh my gosh, guys, stop, stop asking her how to
problem solve right now.
This is a woman who's indistress.
You could hear it in the 911call with the irrational thought
process.
So that's my two cents on it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:00):
So you brought up something there and I've had the
opportunity recently to get outof my bubble in Texas and I've
been in Northwest in a fewdepartments, and so is this call
a officer needs to respondfirst call or is this an
emotional counselor call thatcould be sent out?

Speaker 6 (01:41:24):
I think the knife and I'm going to do something
stupid.
Got the cops, the counselors orthe firemen aren't showing up
to this without-.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
I completely agree.
I just wanted you know, thatwas my thought process that I
had forgotten earlier.
Uh, mr Bill fold Vaughn, uh, we, uh, we need to buy you a donut
, is uh, cause that wasdefinitely an indeed heart
moment, is what, uh, mr Billsaid there.
So, all right, so I'm going toplay it on here.

Speaker 7 (01:41:55):
Stay around here, stay on.
I see Dempsey where at onDempsey, right at the top of the
hill, charlie 28,.
We're about to get on theplatform Right at the top of the
hill.
I ain't been down Dempsey in solong, I don't even remember
where the hill is.
To be honest with you, yeah,it's just right over there.
Yeah, I know where the streetis.
It's right across from theFamily Dollar right.

(01:42:15):
Is that what that is?
Family Dollar, dollar andGentle, something like that?
Yeah, say that again.

Speaker 3 (01:42:34):
So if Eric was here, I could tell you exactly what
he's about to just say.
One person needs to talk.
100% agree on this.

Speaker 2 (01:42:45):
This is something I bet the three of us had seen
countless times in lawenforcement and I've always been
and quote unquote, excuse myFrench the asshole, even not as
a supervisor.
I'm saying but I'll tell mypartner when I say my partner,
it's just somebody that worksfor you know, that's wearing the
uniform, hey, shut it.
I got it.
Or if he has it, I'm going toshut my mouth.

(01:43:07):
Because if we have that oneline of communication, if it's
going smoothly, allow that tokeep going.
If you're interjecting on bothsides, even a reasonable and
prudent person that has noproblems is going to get pissed
off, just like if the three ofus are talking all at the same
time, everybody that's watchingthe show is going to be like
shut the hell up.
We're trying to understand allof you and the same concept goes

(01:43:30):
for this and obviously this isfor all the people watching out
there.
But we need to establish who'sthe primary person on duty.
Establish that rapport.
If you can't do it, go gettraining, get an officer up
there that can.
But let's get this person somehelp, and that's Banning's
opinion on it.

Speaker 6 (01:43:47):
Yeah, I think the second piece too.
You're seeing this guy do amuch better job.
He's shifted from problemsolving tell me what we can do
for you to the small talk, thebuilding report.
Where are you living?
I'm familiar with that area.
He's doing what's called forcedcoupling right.
He's trying to find a universalshared identity, a universal
shared interest, or somethingSome people use kids, some of

(01:44:08):
you.
What's your favorite drink?
Oh, that's mine too.
Whatever it is, you can see, Idon't know.
We're getting segments of this,so I don't know.
We're getting segments of this,so I don't know these guys.
These guys aren't doing.
They're doing a lot of thingsreally well.
They really are.
Their tone of voice is good.
When we teach cops, it'scontent, voice and other
non-verbals.
They're doing a lot of thingsreally well.
This may be the best they have,and I see one cop come up in

(01:44:29):
that right tone of voice.
He feels like he's beingcompassionate.
What's missing is content.
That's training issue.
Right, we had to sit down withsupervisors or with trainers to
listen to us do actualinterviews and with feeling
reflection sheets in front of us.
But before you have that andsomebody says well, just go talk
calmly, keep your stimulus down, have a good facial expressions

(01:44:50):
and body language.
They're doing all that wellright.
They're not doing a bad job andthis may be the limits of their
skills.
So I'm reading some of thecomments and I don't disagree
with them.
If this is what these guysbring into the fight, this is
their level of skill.
They're doing a great job.
I'm just saying there's othertraining out there to elevate
that.

(01:45:10):
And when I say cops aren'tcounselors, cops are absolutely.
There's training out there forcops to do effective
communication, persuasion andde-escalation Right.
Crisis counseling, that's allit is.
And cops are absolutely trainedat crisis counseling across the
country, but not all of themRight.
So I think these guys are doinga great job for the tools

(01:45:33):
they're bringing into the fight.
So I think these guys are doinga great job for the tools
they're bringing into the fight.
And this last little segmentyou showed I thought he was.
He had shifted right intohaving a good rapport building
conversation.
He was no longer problemsolving at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:45:44):
And just to add to that, vaughn, I know you you
have to look at it in many, manystates and myself and Alan have
to look at Texas, but I knowAlan can regurgitate this as
well but in the state of Texaswe have mental health peace
officers and all that means isthe governing body here that
looks over our licenses for whatis also known as post-training.

(01:46:05):
We can get what's called amental health peace officers for
agencies and this is a Alancorrect me if I'm wrong it's a
40 or 80 hour very in-depthclass that you go through for a
TCO rating on becoming a mentalhealth peace officer.
Personally, I believe anybodythat's in uniform that's going
to engage with the public, withas much mental health problems

(01:46:27):
as we have going on, needs to bea mental health peace officer
certified.
Or if they're having issues onthe street, like maybe one of
these officers, or put any sceneout there and get these people
certified to do that, because itis a great class and it's
teaching the basics and itunlocks a lot of these problems
that we're having coming up tothese scenes.

(01:46:47):
And I know a lot of states aredoing the same thing with CIT,
et cetera.
State of Texas does that as welland they're trying to one up
that by doing that mental healthpeace officer training, and I
think that's very, veryimportant to do.
But I think all of lawenforcement that makes daily
engagements with the publicshould have that basic mental
health peace officer training.
Because we wear so many hatsout here.

(01:47:09):
I mean, we're a mechanic onecall, we're a taxi cab driver,
we're a person taking somebodyto jail.
We're taking a person like thisto get mentally evaluated, to
get the help that that personneeds.
If we're going to wear allthese hats, let's make sure that
we have the training for thesehats.
And I know agencies are tryingto do that and it costs money.
But at least Texas have steppedup with the mental health peace

(01:47:32):
officer training course.

Speaker 6 (01:47:34):
If I could put something in perspective for
your guests.
I studied and I wrote a lot ofarticles.
You guys go to 4ScienceNews,it's free.
I wrote a lot of articles onpersuasion, communication,
deescalation and the reality ofwhat that looks like.
After when the deescalationtsunami hit the police force,
they basically said they wantedto bring in mental health
professionals because they weremore, they were better trained

(01:47:56):
and so I started studying.
Well, fine, what are mentalhealth professionals doing that
cops aren't doing?
So he studied what was calledthe beta studies, which was the
best practices for the emergencymanagement of agitation.
It was de-escalation inpsychiatric facilities done by
mental health professionals.
They studied what were the bestpractices and here's what was

(01:48:20):
interesting about it they allrecognized that not everybody's
able or willing to bedeescalated, that sometimes
violence is the reason,disobedience is the reason, and
you're not going to deescalateor persuade them.
The mental health professionalsrecognize that.
The other thing is, when theygot their best practices, they
went to police to learn bestpractices, because police were
the ones who didn't havemedicine to just pump in
somebody's leg like the mentalhealth professionals were doing

(01:48:41):
in a potentially violent crisisintervention.
So the mental healthprofessionals in their best
practice studies actually gottheir best practices largely
from what cops good cops werealready doing on the street.
So we studied the beta reports.
We put that together.
Here's the other big takeawayCIT training from a
communications persuasionstandpoint is about six hours of

(01:49:03):
actual communication training.
The basic training for a crisiscounselor for the program I
went to was over 100 hours ofsupervised crisis counselor
training supervised crisiscounselor training.
So if you want to talk tosomebody on the phone and not
have to worry about all therisks and the threats and the
backstops and the competinggovernment interests, you just
want to talk to somebody on thephone.
It was over a hundred hours ofsupervised crisis counseling

(01:49:26):
training, communicationstraining and persuasion training
.
Compare what's happening nowwith those mental health
professionals with what we'regiving cops and calling them
trained CIT officers.
What my recommendation has beenis when you get these academy
classes we have all thesevolunteer crisis hotlines in
these communities Put that inthe police department have every
one of these officers have togo through the mandatory crisis

(01:49:49):
counseling training as part oftheir academy curriculum and
while they're in the academythey have to volunteer for a
shift on the crisis counselinghotline.
Once they're out of the academythey need to go through their
crisis counseling high-tide andsome of their shifts need to be
just on the phone, where theydon't have to worry about
anything other thancommunication and supervised.
So now we're actuallydeveloping the communication

(01:50:10):
side before they have to worryabout the officer safety side.
Only after that foundation andI mean hundreds of hours do they
get to go out on the street andthen they get to use and
exercise communications,persuasion, de-escalation on the
street, intersecting withofficer safety, public safety,
crime prevention and all theother things we have to pay
attention to.
Right now we are setting copsup for failure 24 hours.

(01:50:33):
Verbal judo class 24 hours andit's one of the best ones out
there historically Verbaldefense and influence and I'm an
instructor for all thesecourses verbal judo, verbal
defense and influence, forcescience, realistic de-escalation
.
I've been to CIT training Allthese programs, every one of
them.
What they lack isoperationalizing the lessons.
The content's great, but if weactually want to operationalize

(01:50:56):
it so that it's effective on thestreet, it's going to take 10
times or more many hours ofactual supervised practice for
these cops out on the street.
So I wanted to put thatperspective and then I'll leave
with this.
The mental health professionals.
Historically, when they hadviolence, potential violence in
these people, they called thecops, that's who did their
de-escalation and persuasion.

(01:51:17):
Or they got a needle and theystuck them with the needle.
That was their de-escalation.
So, regardless of what we thinkabout mental health
professionals and the lessons wecould derive from them or the
skillset they might bring to thefight, a good crisis counselor
that we bring out there shouldhave had hundreds of hours of
that type of expertise andtraining, and now it's time that

(01:51:38):
we get we push that over to thecops as well, you bet 100%.

Speaker 3 (01:51:43):
So we haven't heard from Joni.
Very often Officers don't havesoft chemical restraints, just a
license to touch I think one ofthe best tools officers on
their Swiss Swiss Army knife oftools is just talking.
And I think you know it's beensaid by Banning and Eric on

(01:52:07):
multiple shows.
You know, one of the thingsthat we're not doing with these
kids that are coming into theworld of law enforcement is
these kids don't know how totalk to anybody.
The only thing they know how todo is sit there in the chats in
these video games and talk,smack to each other and scream

(01:52:27):
at their headset and throw theirremote down and they lack the
ability to understand inflectionand things like that.
And you know, just hold aconversation.
You know, when I was working,you know my background is, I
spent 16 years working withstudents in schools and you know

(01:52:49):
kids don't look you in the eye.
They don't.
They don't know how to talk toyou.
Don't look you in the eye, theydon't.
They don't know how to talk toyou and to get a kid.
When even my son gets in thecar his, I have a nine year old
and I'm like, hey, how's yourday?
How was your day today.
Oh, it was good.
I'm like, okay, that's notgoing to do it.
You're going to have to usemore words than that, and I

(01:53:10):
think that's one of thechallenges that we're running
into is, uh, is people justdon't have communication skills
anymore, and and we've got toreinforce that.
And you know, training andtraining, and training and every
one of us is going to sit hereand harp on.
We need more training, but yetwhen it comes time to training,

(01:53:34):
how many of us sign up and wantto go?

Speaker 2 (01:53:37):
Sure and I'm going to speak on that just for one
second because I don't think,you know, vaughn has got a
really busy schedule on this butI want to know, I want to know
Vaughn's opinion.
Seriously, man, I believe in theacademy, just the communication
structure of our students, theguys and gals that want to come
out here and serve the people.

(01:53:57):
I think there needs to besomething within the academy
that shows that these officers,guys and gals alike, that they
can communicate not a hundredpercent, but they're working on
it or it's getting really good,a lot better than what it
currently is across the country.
I, you know, I talked to copsnationwide and I've talked to a
lot of rookies that have beenout on the street for six months

(01:54:18):
to a year and when you get inthat conversation with them,
it's nil, to say the least.
They have not built thosecommunications yet and I
understand they're young 21, 22,23-year-old folks.
But I think within the academywe need to introduce more of a
communication realm, becausecommunication, I believe, really

(01:54:41):
sets you apart from differenttypes of officers and you're
going to be able to get that jobdone a lot faster if you can
communicate, regardless of thepublic that's listening the
amount of people in the crowd orif you're online or in a game.
Like Alan was saying, I thinkjust a base principle of being a
law enforcement officer is theability to communicate
effectively.

(01:55:01):
I mean, what are your thoughtson that from what you've seen
around the country?

Speaker 6 (01:55:04):
Yeah, realistic de-escalation covers a couple of
things.
For cops it's the integrationof communication tactics, right.
So that part is going to bepolice specific.
Now the actual communicationpiece can be taught and it's not
hard.
Um, like I said, they gave us acheat sheet that had feeling
reflections on it.
So you know, transformationalvocabulary, feeling reflections.

(01:55:25):
When someone says, you know, I'm, I'm pissed off, that's what
they tell you and you want to dotransformational vocabulary to
bring down their mostly, youknow exactly, it sounds like
you're frustrated today.
So I read I reflect backfrustration.
When they said pissed off andthey're like, yeah, I'm really
frustrated if it catches, itcatches.
I'm just giving an examplebecause we have an entire list
of these kind of words withvariable, varying intensities.

(01:55:47):
So you learn that how to how touse words to lower, lower their
, their emotional state asaffected as to the work.
If they say they're pissed offand you say I can tell you're
frustrated, they're like, no,I'm pissed, it's no big deal,
that's the feedback and youreflect it back yeah, I can tell
you're pissed.
And now you're building rapportby mirroring back the language.
You can't go wrong in that.
So my point is there aretraining guidelines that can

(01:56:10):
take someone who doesn't know,doesn't feel comfortable
communicating, and make it ascript, almost like so you know,
verbal judo script.
Right?
Hey, I'm officer clean to pickup police.
The reason I stopped you is Ididn't notice you ran the stop
sign.
Is there any justified reasonfor the violation?
Um, if not, you know, and youdo that script every time, so
the first year rookie can soundlike a 10 year veteran because
they're falling into that script.
And but it's script isn't justthe content.

(01:56:33):
If you notice, I'm, I'm tellingyou why I stopped you.
I'm telling you what myauthority is, who I am.
I'm giving you my name rightoff the bat, because when you
stop cars, what do they say?
Who are you?
Who do you think you are?
Why did you stop me?
Well, don't make them ask thatRight off the bat with good
facial expression, goodcompassion.
Hey, I'm Officer Cleen.
Please say the reason I didstop you is I did notice you run
that stop sign and then invitefeedback.

(01:56:54):
Is there any justified reasonswhy this type of communication
can be trained?
And it's scripted.
And then I'll add this otherpiece feeling reflections and
empathy.
Having the heart conversationsinstead of the head
conversations are about feelingreflections.
I hear you say a feeling.
I reflect it back.
It sounds like you're feeling.
You just said I'm pissed.
Sounds like you're feelingpissed and like, oh, he's
listening to me.
It's when you do it with yourwife every day, when you're

(01:57:16):
practicing at home, when you'rein the academy and you come home
and you're practicing, you'regoing to stop doing that stuff
to me.
But out on the street it comesacross as authentic.
It comes across it's notscripted.
So there's ways to train thatto your point If they come in at

(01:57:39):
a different level.
But most people don't know howto do crisis counseling training
unless they came up in a kindof a hostile family structure
right, where that became somesort of survival mechanism.
But okay.
So, having said that, it's verytrainable and it's not hard to
train.
And I would add this point wehad guys that when they would
get in trouble on the street fordisrespect or or anger
management, they'd have to comeback to our training again

(01:58:00):
communication training.
I was given certificates, I wasgiven doctorates in verbal judo
, doctorates in communication,because these guys would come
back three, four times in thesame class.
So instead of giving them acertificate of completion, I
would make up okay, you're now adoctorate, right?
This is your fourth time goingto the class.

(01:58:21):
What was interesting about thatis one of the guys who had to
keep coming back.
I saw him out on the street andhe was about to go hands-on
with a guy that was twice hissize and twice as mean, and his
communication skills wereamazing at that point.
It was an incentive to use thetools.
The tools aren't hard.
It's how to incentivize theofficers that it is in their
best interest and thecommunity's best interest to

(01:58:41):
utilize those tools, becausewhen this guy was incentivized,
he could have taught the class.
That's how good it was.
So, to your point, yeah, theyneed to be taught, but I will
say the programs are out thereto teach it and then it's just
repetition and good feedback.
But I will say the programs areout there to teach it and then
it's just repetition and goodfeedback.

Speaker 2 (01:59:00):
But I do say generation upon generation of
cops have needed that trainingAbsolutely.
And thank you for that, mon.
I appreciate it.
And, alan, if you havesomething to add, throw it out.
If not, let's.
Yeah, let's get it going.
See how they do this.
Thanks, guys.
Do you need?

Speaker 7 (01:59:11):
anybody from the sheriff's office.
Stay on Dempsey by yourself.
Who do you stay with?
My brother?
Your brother.
How old's your brother?
He's 26.

(01:59:32):
He's 26?
Yeah, so that's your onlysibling.
No, that's your only sibling.
No, I have six other.
Goodness gracious, I know whenare you at in that mix.
I'm the second oldest.
You're the second oldest, right?
Oh, okay, I got you.
How does it feel being theoldest?
It's pretty cool, it'ssomething.
Yeah, usually when you're youbully your younger siblings, you

(01:59:58):
give them a hard time.
Yeah, yeah, that's usually howit goes.
You got the better end of thestick there, I'd say.

Speaker 8 (02:00:07):
So, daisy, I guess you told one of the people at
our dispatch that stop it, dropit, drop it.
Drop the knife, daisy.
Drop the knife.
I don't want to shoot you.
You don't want this either.
Drop the knife, daisy.
Don't do it, daisy.
Daisy, I don't want to hurt you.

(02:00:28):
Drop the knife.
I got her, daisy, don't gotowards him.
Nope, don't do it, drop it, Idon't do that.
Come on, Daisy, you don't gottado that.
None.
Maybe two minutes down at themost.

(02:00:56):
Daisy, how can we help you?
We don't want you to get hurt.
We don't want to get hurt.
Let us get you some help, daisy, go in for the knife down, okay
, I mean, I'm good, it waspurposeful, she took it.

(02:01:21):
Yep, daisy, drop the knifeplease.
We don't want you to get hurt.
We don't want to get hurt.
You made a threat on us bymoving towards us with the knife
, so we can't leave now.
Okay, alright, so go ahead anddrop the knife so we can get you
out of here.
Junior, I'm coming to your side.

(02:01:45):
Okay, I'm coming to you.
Just put the knife down.
We'll get you whatever you need.
Just put the knife down, daisy.
We will get you whatever youneed.
We can call somebody for you,we can get you a ride somewhere,
we can get you something to eat.
The opportunities are endless.

(02:02:08):
Whatever you need.
What's it going to?

Speaker 5 (02:02:18):
be.
We're going to get a box of be.

Speaker 8 (02:02:23):
Yep, that's a humor.
I am funny as fuck.
He's single, if you're looking.

Speaker 3 (02:02:38):
I skipped ahead about a minute.

Speaker 8 (02:02:40):
No, no knives, he needs a date to their Christmas
party.
Hey don't put through it Likeseriously.
He needs a date.
So if you know somebody, helphim out.

Speaker 5 (02:02:54):
Daisy.
What's been going on today?
I don't normally just walk outwith a knife like that.
What's been going on today?
I don't normally just walk outwith a knife like that.
What's been going on?
You got enough people herebecause they're genuinely
concerned about you.
This isn't like you're fuckingoff, doing nothing.
I'm not in trouble.
You're just putting me on apedestal.

Speaker 3 (02:03:28):
That's a K9 over there in that other unit,
charlie 39, 10-9.

Speaker 4 (02:03:37):
10-9.

Speaker 5 (02:03:38):
10-9.
10-9.

Speaker 8 (02:03:42):
10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.
, 10-9.

Speaker 5 (02:03:55):
Anywhere you need to go if you're hungry.
You look cold, just want abottle of water.

Speaker 8 (02:03:58):
Hey, I got some Taco Bell in my car that I probably
shouldn't be eating.
It's all yours if you want todo the right thing.

Speaker 5 (02:04:29):
I think you know whatever is going on right now
is not how things should be.
You want change in your life.
You want a positive differencebeing made.
If you need, there's not awhole lot we can do for you.
Daisy, I think you calledbecause you know you want to do
the right thing.
I think you know whatever isgoing on right now is not how
things should be.
You want change in your life.
You want a positive differencebeing made.
Let us help you make thatpositive change.

(02:04:50):
I understand reaching out forsomething at the break.

Speaker 8 (02:04:52):
Don't do it.

Speaker 2 (02:05:03):
Seeing this type of call as many times as I've seen
it, it never gets any easier towatch that.
And our warning as we saidearlier, we watched some pretty
dramatic things on this show andif that hurt anybody out there
watching that I apologize andunfortunately this is the world
that we live in in someinstances.
But I believe in their heartsthey're doing the best that they

(02:05:29):
could to talk to her.
I truly believe that we shouldhave and not quarterbacking.
Okay, just looking back, and ifwe could hit a reset button,
can we get the, the secondofficer the world, up a little
bit further to be maybe becomethat primary?
And again, just an opinionwould it have gone differently?
Probably not.

(02:05:49):
She may have already hadeverything figured out in her
head, but I do believe they'retrying to deesescalate the best
they could.

Speaker 6 (02:05:54):
But move on.
Yeah, uh, so if you want tojust analyze it when you have,
when you want to dode-escalation, you have to have
discretionary time.
Discretionary time is areasonable amount of containment
and a reasonable amount ofcontrol.
While she was standing therewith a knife, they had both a
reasonable amount of containmentin that they.
That just means they'relimiting her to a reasonable

(02:06:14):
area of movement.
Right where they, there's noimminent threat.
They had that.
So as long as she remainedstationary, a reasonable amount
of controls.
There's no actual imminent harmtaking place right now.
She's not hurting herself,she's not hurting anyone else.
When you have containment andcontrol, you have what we call
discretionary time and that'swhat you can engage in the
communication to whatever level,skill level you have, if you

(02:06:35):
have discretionary time.
The other thing that we wantcops doing is bringing in
additional resources, if youhave them, by intermediate force
options tasers, standoffdistance, impact weapons If
those are options in yourdepartment, maybe they, maybe
you don't have them the.
So as this thing's going on,I'm starting to wonder where's

(02:06:55):
your intermediate force options.
If you have standoff distance,can you create additional
standoff distance and stillmaintain containment?
Which the way that would lookfor something like this and
again, this is hindsight I haveall the benefit of sitting in an
air-conditioned office with nothreat to myself.
I'm thinking okay, she's on along strip, put some people on
the ends.
What we're protecting at thispoint.
Why she can't move is becausewe can't let her get into a

(02:07:16):
populated area.
So the officers can certainlyback up, but then they lose
containment.
And now she's mobile with aknife, um, and they can't let
that happen.
So they can expand containmentperhaps, uh, by limiting the
reasonable area of movement orexpanding the reasonable
movement to those populated endsof the building.
Um, just quickly looking at it.
So I would expect to see someof the stuff like that, if those

(02:07:37):
were even options.
But that's what they were doingis maintaining some containment
.
Not everybody's able or willingto be de-escalated.
So there is no, it's notreasonable for me to assume that
if you had a more skillfulcommunicator, they were going to
do any better.
These guys, I think when theytried jokes they were trying to
do any better.
Um, these guys, I think whenthey tried jokes they were
trying different options anddifferent feedback.

(02:07:58):
That's perfectly legitimate.
To see what slows her down andwhat builds rapport with her.
Um, all that stuff was good.
The the other thing is and thiswill be controversial and I I'll
just put it out there there'sno law that said you can't shoot
someone in the leg.
Right, she's an imminent threat.
I wouldn't say that when shestarted running.

(02:08:22):
Once she started running, I'mnot advocating you shoot him in
the leg.
At that point, you shootavailable center mass to get to
increase your chance for hit.
But while she's standing there,noncompliant with a knife,
having threatened the officers,the officers could be as
creative as they want.
Compliant with a knife, havingthreatened the officers, the
officers could be as creative asthey want.
And if an officer decided atthat point I'm going to shoot
her in the leg, if I miss andshe takes off running, then
we're going to have to go higheron the up on the body.

(02:08:44):
But starting to get creative atthat point, when she's an
imminent threat, but notactively assaulting, is, uh,
something that was just goingthrough my head, because when
that first got brought up Ithought what exactly are the
circumstances where you'd shootsomebody in the leg?
Like when are you safe enoughto try that?
Well, maybe this was one ofthem.
I'm not saying it was, butthose are the kind of thoughts
that were going through my head.

(02:09:04):
If you don't have intermediateForce options, do you have any
other options?
Um, and again, maybe I'll bevery clear once you went mobile
and started a faulty officer I'mnot advocating shooting them in
LA you get available centermass at that point, sure?
Um, yeah, so these were mythoughts.
I I was getting a littlefrustrated that there weren't
beanbag rounds being thrown herdirection, um, but I don't know

(02:09:27):
if they had that skill set.
Now, the other thing I would addis I kept seeing 21 foot
principle.
I want to be very clear aboutthis, because force science got
hammered by the police researchforum years ago and it was
complete nonsense.
And here's what the theory wasForce science is teaching that
anybody with a knife who'swithin 21 feet of you, you can

(02:09:47):
shoot them.
That is absolutely never whatwe taught.
Here's how it goes when you'relooking in an imminent threat,
you want to know does the personhave the physical ability,
means and opportunity?
So it's it's intent abilitymeans, an opportunity that we're
analyzing.
Do you reasonably believe theyhave the intent ability means
I'll be to inflict death orserious bodily injury?
All 21 feet rule or principletells you all 30 foot principle

(02:10:11):
tells you is that that an appthat average there's within a
range that someone can close 21feet in about 1.5 seconds on
average.
And we don't know, this personmight be faster, this person
might be slower, but you have togauge something when you're
doing a threat assessment.
About 31 feet is 1.7 seconds.
Now why is that relevant?
Because that's about the amountof time an average officer can

(02:10:34):
draw their gun out and get oneaim fire out.
The 21-foot principle never hasever said someone with a knife
who says I'm going to stab youand they're within 21 feet, you
can just shoot them.
You still have to demonstrateintent, ability, means and
opportunity.
Now, that's a judgment by eachindividual officer and

(02:10:55):
reasonable people can disagree.
So if you have someone who'sbeen in a stabbing before there
with, that guy was, was 30 feetaway and instantly took off and
stabbed a cop, the next time youfind someone in that same
situation, you're going to bemuch faster with your deadly
force, right?
Another cop who's like I'mgoing to assume more risk,
that's fine, they get to do that, but nowhere is it ever says
someone with a knife standing 21feet gets shot like.

(02:11:18):
That's not, that's not thestandard um.
So I just want to throw thatout there.
I think that this is this istragic.
Obviously nobody wanted to seethis um, but I think the
officers did a much better jobtowards the end of actually
trying to build rapport.
They were doing distractions,changing pace, tactical after
action review we might look at.

(02:11:38):
Okay, the next time we seesomething like this would we
have thought about moving out,maybe expanding out our
containment a little bit broader, maybe get into some
intermediate force options froma neighboring institution or
neighboring agency if we don'thave them um.
But quite frankly, someagencies you get what you get
and that's it.
So they didn't have it, theydidn't have it.

Speaker 3 (02:11:56):
Yeah, well, vaughn, I will say that we very much
appreciate having you out heretonight.
Mr Belfold wants to know, wantsyou to know, that you have a
new nickname it's Wizard Vaughn,because, uh, saying everything,
he's thinking so, and that'sgreat company, because we, we

(02:12:19):
love us some.
Mr Bill Foltz.
So, um, and then, uh, goodnight to uh, uh, somebody has
got to go to bed.
I just, uh, ward's got to go tobed.
So, um, you know, he's, youknow, got to go and run the
streets in the morning, so, giveme two seconds, guys.

Speaker 2 (02:12:37):
I've got to adjust the temperature in the house.
Put my daughter back in.

Speaker 3 (02:12:40):
And, um, there was one other thought that I wanted.
You know.
Uh, there there was a commentsaid about the beanbags and you
know, I have actually never evengotten to train with them in my
small agency and I can can seewhere that's a great tool.
But again, it's another thingon the Batman belt that we wear,

(02:13:03):
of tools, that some agencieshave them and some agencies
don't Everybody in the commentswhen the taser got pulled out in
that initial part of the video.
You know, one thing we have toknow is we're up in the north,
you know northern part of thecountry and she's wearing a

(02:13:25):
jacket, and I've personally beenin a situation where I was
pulling the trigger and,fortunately, the taser started
working because he was closingthe distance and I was, I was, I
had my, uh, my firearm out and,uh, I fortunately didn't have
to finish pulling the triggerbecause, all the all of a sudden
, the taser made contact throughthe jacket and so, luckily, I

(02:13:48):
wasn't in that scenario anylonger.
But, um, you know, sometimesthose intermediate weapons don't
work, but they're nice to havethem when they do.
And so, um, can you talk alittle bit about, uh, experience
with the beanbag round, cause Idon't have any experience with
it.

Speaker 6 (02:14:08):
Um, they work when they work, they don't when they
don't.
So we're on that.
We're on the Clear CreekColorado case.
Um, it was a hung jury thefirst time.
We're going to do it again nextmonth.
But the officers in that case,the guy was contained in a
vehicle trying to.
He armed himself with a knifewhen they broke out the
passenger side window.
After about an hour and 10minute standoff with him, and at

(02:14:32):
that point he'd armed himselfwith a knife, they thought he
was trying to get out of the car.
At that point he'd armedhimself with a knife.
Um, they thought he was tryingto get out of the car at that
point.
So as long as he was in the carwas fine.
Um, if he wanted to arm himselfwith a knife, they said stay in
the car.
If he put the knife down, theysaid get out.
But at this point he'd armedhimself and they thought he was
getting out because he kepttrying to reach up to the
doorknob.
So he kind of set that.
So the officers one of theofficers says get the beanbag on

(02:14:54):
him, get that effing knife outof his hand, because again, at
that point they think he'strying to get out with the knife
and the vehicle's surrounded byofficers with guns drawn.
So they try the beanbag roundfirst and they're shooting him
in the shoulder.
Um, I think they get three orfour hits on him and one, when
one round, goes to the backwindow, smashes the window out.

(02:15:15):
Now that the back window smashedout, uh, the officer on the
driver's side tries to tase himthrough the, through the back
window.
That's when he tries to stabthe officer.
So he's trying to stab theofficer through the window.
He actually looks like he hitsthe officer's taser with the
knife.
That's how close he is.
The cover officer sees that thebeanbag rounds have completely

(02:15:36):
failed.
He never even dropped the knife, he just flinched.
So then they tried to taser.
Taser did not work noneuromuscular incapacitation so
they tried to intermediate forceoptions.
And then he tries to stab theofficer to the window and the
cover officer went lethal on him.
It looks really bad becausehe's still in the car, right,
but he's in the car trying tostab through the back window.
You can see his arm completelyout the window with the knife.

(02:15:57):
They charged the officer withmurder in that case.
So a couple of things in thatone.
The beanbag round itself wasineffective, right, somebody
who's under the influence ofmental health issues,
disorganized thinking, alcohol,drugs.
Usually a psychological impactof getting hit with those rounds
makes you kind of give upbecause you don't know how bad

(02:16:18):
it's going to be.
But if you're just waiting forthe physical hit to make you
drop something, there's noguarantees.
So I think the taser itself nowis up to like just over 50%
effectiveness rate.
That is not something you'dnecessarily want to see in an
arm standoff, which is why ifyou have a taser cover, you got
lethal coverage on top of that.

(02:16:39):
Beam bag round and taser aretypically same same.
They're both intermediate forceoptions.
You want to use a taser, youuse a beam bag round.
Some agencies may train thatjust a little bit different, but
typically they're bothintermediate force options.
They're just long range impactweapons options.
They're just long-range impactweapons.
Um, however, the jury in thecriminal case found the officer

(02:17:00):
guilty of official misconduct oruh, uh, yeah, I think it was
official, but but uh was it?
Uh, they found him guilty of acrime because they said he
should have tried the taserbefore the beam background.
That's the level of tacticaldecision-making.
They convicted him of a crimebecause the juror believed he
should have tried the taserfirst.
Now the taser failed when theydid try it.

(02:17:22):
But they started with thebeanbag round and then tried a
taser.
I digress for the purpose ofyour question, but just
understand.
Typically they are intermediateforce options.
They're interchangeable with abaton.
They're just long-range impactweapons and you typically want
to use them when the person'sposing a threat of injury to the
officer or others Not notserious bodily injury or death,

(02:17:42):
just active assault andresistance is sufficient to use
a long range impact weapontypically.

Speaker 3 (02:17:49):
So a couple of months ago.
I think it was a couple ofmonths ago, banning.
I think you were on this videoago.
I think it was a couple monthsago, banning, I think you were
on this video.
I was not, but there was avideo and officers used shotgun,
beanbag, round and it ended upkilling the suspect.
Can you speak to when things gobad, to an intermediate weapon

(02:18:14):
versus a firearm, things likethat?
Do you remember the call thethe video I'm talking about,
banning?
There's a couple of peopletalking about it in the chat.

Speaker 2 (02:18:28):
I've seen three of them with a beanbag grab and
that have been fatal,unfortunately.
So I'm not sure exactly whichone this is.
You know those rounds aredesigned after training to be
fired in certain areas of thebody, soft points of the body,
to gain compliance, to end thatthreat.
And if that round that's okayto go into the gut or into the

(02:18:53):
arm or into the femur were tostrike the temple or an eye
socket, depending on the range,some soft points to hit an organ
, then unfortunately you'regoing to have that fatal
response in some of thosescenarios.
Vaughn may have actually seenthe true ones, possibly around
the world that maybe havehappened and can speak more to

(02:19:14):
that.
But that's just.
I've seen some, but I'm sureyou can speak on it much better.

Speaker 6 (02:19:20):
I think I don't remember how many.
I might be making this numberup so everyone knows its
estimate.
I think nationally there waslike less than 11 deaths
associated with a bean bag round.
Of all their uses documented, Imean, it's so rare.
It's so rare but likeeverything, if it happens you
gotta warn against it.

(02:19:40):
But it is when it's usedproperly and it actually impacts
the aim point, because it'sdynamic.
The people are ducking andmoving, just like you are
sometimes.
So you don't know, but they'rereally safe.
They're really safe if you'renot hitting them in the eye and
in the head at close range.
You've got to be smart aboutthem.

(02:20:02):
The effectiveness of it too.
If you guys ever played contactsports, when your mind gets in
that I play rugby for years andyou're getting hit harder than a
beanbag around and it's notstopping you, you're bouncing
off that stuff.
If you're goal oriented, um,and you don't have the
psychological recoil fromgetting hit by stuff, I mean a
lot, of, a lot of officers wouldbe like, oh, we're testing

(02:20:23):
beanbag rounds, I'll be yourguinea pig and they'll stand on
the line and get shot withbeanbag rounds because they've
lost the psychological deterrenteffect.
Now you don't want to hit thesame spot more than once.
Right, you don't want to hitthe same spot more than once.

Speaker 2 (02:20:34):
Right Hell, because they hurt yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:20:43):
I may or may not have been hit by one, and I can
attest to it hurts like hell,all right.

Speaker 2 (02:20:47):
So you guys have time for one more.
I think we can get one more, Ican get one more in.
I'm not sure about my ownschedule, all yours.

Speaker 6 (02:20:53):
I thought it was tomorrow night, so I just freed
up my whole night tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (02:20:56):
You're awesome.
I appreciate that very much.

Speaker 4 (02:21:03):
Yes, very much, so, All right so.

Speaker 5 (02:21:12):
Come on, there it goes.

Speaker 3 (02:21:15):
Come on, there it goes.

Speaker 1 (02:21:37):
You're going to love this one.
Bannon County units move toTAC-1.
Tac-1 in pursuit southbound I-5, coming up to Maytown, little
Rock, taking the exit.

Speaker 4 (02:21:44):
Southbound I-5, approaching Maytown, little Rock
, pushing the exit TAC-1, orcorrection off-court units we'll
be on a code 10,.

Speaker 5 (02:21:50):
Off-court will be on a code 10.

Speaker 1 (02:21:52):
5-8,.
I'm going to try to get himaround this corner.

Speaker 5 (02:21:57):
Take him now.
Take him now Going for agrapple at Maytown.
Okay, I know it's in thepursuit.
Got it on westbound MaytownRoad speed to 66 miles an hour

(02:22:19):
and heading southbound on caselight traffic.

Speaker 4 (02:22:22):
Now southbound on case for Maytown light traffic
849.
Got it contained.
See if smokey's up.

Speaker 5 (02:22:30):
Fish on fish on fish on he just said fish on.

Speaker 3 (02:22:42):
That's great that's awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:22:46):
You know what?
I bet that was said to him intraining at some, because we
usually revert back to themuscle memory and the statements
in training.
Um, you know, I've heard a lotof uh goods and bads about that.
The grappler and I wasfollowing this company when they
started the creation.
I think the first video I sawin them was in 2003 or 2004 when

(02:23:06):
they had a prototype going onsomewhere out in the West,
either Arizona or New Mexico.
I think it's a great tool.
I do believe that we have toget dangerously close sometimes,
but if you can get a goodrelease on this thing, it does
bring that vehicle to a betterstop than some pits.
Can I like the tool I know it'svery expensive kind of like the

(02:23:29):
what is that?
The StarChase to where we canutilize this and spring that GPS
module up onto the vehicle andwe can reduce and dispatch, can
tell us where, we can look atour CAD and figure out where
that vehicle is going and hopingthat they're slowing their roll
as opposed to a full-on pursuitto limit less lives getting

(02:23:50):
hurt out there.
But this, I think, was a greatending on this, von.
What are your thoughts on it?

Speaker 6 (02:23:57):
I always like when technology tries to mitigate the
risk to the option is suspect.
I mean, pit maneuvers are great.
This looks like when it'seffective.
It's better than that.
It's more controlled.
Um, I I always go back I thinkyou mentioned to get the gps so
you know where the vehicle's at.
Um, this comes up in a lot ofour cases like but I don't know
who's driving the car, right?

(02:24:18):
So knowing where the vehicle atis, I mean, if we're going to
do a forensic analysis on thetruck, figure out who was
driving that night and do afull-on event which we likely
aren't going to do um, thenwe're letting the evidence go,
we're letting the warrant go,we're letting the driver and
accountability go.
We'll find the car and if it'sa stolen car, that's great.
Right, that's that's importanttoo.

(02:24:38):
And maybe that's the moreimportant thing is hey, we got
the car back for you andeveryone's happy.
But yeah, I've never seen thatbefore.
I didn't even know what thatwas.

Speaker 2 (02:24:48):
If somebody would ask me what the grappler was, I
would have thought it was likethe bolo wrap or something I'm
telling you, man, these newproducts when they come out we
don't get to see as the consumeror just the general public to
see what they go through in thebackground to create such a
monstrosity, is what this thingis If you look at the actual

(02:25:08):
nuts and bolts of.
I was very fascinated when itcame out because unfortunately,
early in my career I was in alot of pursuits what had came
out because unfortunately, earlyin my career I was in a lot of
pursuits I've actually endedmore pursuits on my end as
opposed to continuing on basedon the population of where I was
at and as a young guy,testosterone loaded, ready to
man.
This is so cool.
This is just like cops.

(02:25:29):
To terminate that is a smallthought in your head, but to
terminate that and realize thatyou're eventually hopefully
going to get that and realizethat you're eventually hopefully
going to get that bad guybefore you hurt somebody, that
grappler tool, looking back atsome of my pursuits, would have
been an amazing piece ofequipment.
But then again, you've got toget close.
You've got to close that gapand sometimes these pursuits are

(02:25:50):
really, really fast and ifyou're thinking about getting
your bumper within four feet ofthat car and getting that
grappler, and all it is is a netthat wraps up on that rear axle
, uh, uh, with attached to thecar, and that's the only, that's
the only way it's slowing itdown.
So it's a it's a prettyinteresting concept that they
have and and I hope it justkeeps getting better and better

(02:26:11):
and better.
So tech, like you said,technology and that's very basic
, that's archaic If you look atthat.
That is.
That reminds me of the timesand I can't even think of what
times it was when they wereusing these big boulders and the
slingshots and shooting themover the castle walls.
I mean, we got a sling comingout on a frigging patrol unit
and getting it up underneaththat car.

(02:26:32):
It's not so much electronic,it's just physics, and it's not
so much electronic, it's uh,it's just physics and it's just
so neat to see something likethat work correctly it makes me
think of throwing a stick inyour buddy's tire when they're
riding a bicycle tire.

Speaker 3 (02:26:45):
All right, I gotta, uh, I got one that hits close
home, uh to home for uh,spanning.
And then, uh, this is the lastone I've got for us, all right.
And then this is the last oneI've got for us, all right, all
right.
Share that guy intersectionthat's what he said that guy

(02:27:42):
fuck.
Yeah, I can't tell get the fuckon the ground.

Speaker 5 (02:27:52):
Pointed at that guy get on the fucking ground, lay
down.
I just pointed at that guy Geton the fucking ground, get on
the ground, lay down.
I'm swelling up 2-12,.
One I got in his hand, one Igot in his hand.
Cover code 3.

Speaker 4 (02:28:07):
He's pointing at you, that guy.
Oh fuck, yeah, I can't tell.
Yeah, park, park, park Get thefuck on the ground.

Speaker 7 (02:28:21):
Get on the fucking ground, get on the ground, lay
down.

Speaker 5 (02:28:23):
I swear to God, to the ground, to the ground To the
ground, to the ground, to theground, to the ground, to the
ground, to the ground, to theground, to the ground.
Get on the ground, lay down.
I swear 2-12, one at gunpoint.
He's got a gun in his hand.
Star is covered, code 3.

(02:28:44):
2-12, shots fired.
Push up, push up, push up.

Speaker 8 (02:29:02):
That guy, oh fuck, to 12 shots fired you just pointed
at that guy, you know thefucking ground lay down, he's

(02:29:36):
pointing, he's pointing it shotsfired, push up, push up, push
up, push up.
He's dropped it.
I need you to clear up and headdown.
You have to do it close down onthe background.
You want to clear out Shotsfired.
Shots fired Suspect down.
Roll over your stomach, awayfrom the gun.

Speaker 5 (02:29:45):
Coming to you, coming to you Empty hands.
Keep pushing, keep pushing,keep pushing, Keep pushing, keep
pushing.

Speaker 4 (02:29:54):
Put your hands on the back, don't fucking move.

Speaker 8 (02:29:59):
You good, yeah, 11-0-12.
11-0-12, joaquin, what are youdoing?
Get the fuck back.

Speaker 1 (02:30:06):
I think he's getting hit once.
Yeah, I think he's getting hitonce.

Speaker 4 (02:30:10):
Yeah, I think he's getting hit once.
Yeah, I think he's getting hitonce.

Speaker 1 (02:30:16):
Yeah, I think he's getting hit once.
Yeah, I think he's getting hitonce, maybe twice.

Speaker 8 (02:30:29):
Get your scissors out .

Speaker 1 (02:30:30):
cut his hoodie off off all the way up, straight up
this shoulder.

Speaker 8 (02:30:43):
I see I got one inch you on the back.

Speaker 3 (02:30:49):
I mean there, have you seen this video?

Speaker 8 (02:31:03):
this video.
We're good suspects down doingfirst aid using cuffs.
What's your name, buddy?

Speaker 3 (02:31:21):
So stop sharing.

Speaker 2 (02:31:31):
So the small print at the top that we never read is
suspect points a replica gun atofficers.
Then we go back to reasonableand prudent.
What does a reasonable andprudent person expect when you
go out in the general public andpoint something that is a
facsimile of the real thing?
I'm going to make a stab atthis.

(02:31:52):
You're in Texas.
I'm surprised we weren'tresponding to a crime scene.

Speaker 3 (02:32:00):
You know what I mean, alan, so that first video that
you saw was the complainingparty had video of that that
called it in saying that therewas a subject with a gun.

Speaker 2 (02:32:14):
And to be in those officers' minds on trying to
determine is this real or is itfake?
It looks 100% real and it'sbeing pointed at people without
their consent, if you want tothrow everything in there, and
then this happens and this is avery unfortunate ending.

(02:32:35):
But it's one of those.
It's a one of those no choice,no choice things.
And man, this is, this is a.
It's tough, you know.
Now these guys got to go homeand they got to digest this.
Why, you know why, is why isthe guy out there pointing a
fake gun or whatever you want tocall it Dummy gun, facsimile BB
gun other than real at folks?

(02:32:56):
And they're doing their jobs.
They were communicating, theywere moving.
At one point they said Spanish.
They were making sure that theywere trying to cover their
bases.
Last thing that they did and I'mspeaking just for law
enforcement in general neitherone of those guys woke up that
morning.
They're like man.
I sure hope somebody brings areplicant gun out on the street
today so I can do deadly force.

(02:33:17):
These guys went out there andthey eliminated what was
perceived as a high threat, andit was.
That's exactly how I would haveacted on scene.
Somebody's pointing a gun atsomebody, either a third person
or myself.
We're going to eliminate thatthreat so that victim does not
get hurt.
I'm going to shut up because Icould talk for an hour on it

(02:33:37):
vaughn, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (02:33:38):
Well, a little shout out to, uh, mr eric levine, that
should be on vacation.
Should have shot him in the bigtoe, is his comment.
Miss you guy.
We're holding down the fort.
All right, vaughn, can you tellus your thoughts please?

Speaker 6 (02:33:56):
I mean, I'd banning straight up.
I mean he's right across allthe jurisdictions.
Cops respond to apparentthreats, right, we talked about
intent to build a meansopportunity.
It's, it's reasonable belief.
It's not.
They don't have to be right,they have to be reasonable and
every court recognizes.
When it comes to the threatitself, it's an apparent threat,
not an actual threat thatofficers are responding to
because in time compressedcircumstances there's no time to

(02:34:18):
verify the a replica versusversus a real, real gun.
They're not expected to um.
So that's all true.
I would say I saw in the commenthow far this was.
I don't know how far it was.
The video.
Things are always appearfurther in the video than they
are in real life.
So I'm suspecting this was notthat far a shot for a guy to be

(02:34:38):
taken with a pistol, um, therifle certainly not.
But I gave no, no credence towhat it looked like on the video
.
Relative to distance, it wasprobably a lot closer if the
video because remember thefisheye lens it's pushing stuff
in the center, out, um, so itmakes it look much further out,
um, or pulling stuff in on thesides.
That being said, I I look atthis.

(02:35:00):
If we are supervisors doing anar, it does not change the
legality of it at all.
I would you know when I sawthat officer.
Remember officers, the experts.
One they remain.
They're comfortable inuncertainty.
That's the first, one of thefirst characteristics of an
expert police officer.
The second is they remain calmin chaos.
As things get worse, they getbetter.

(02:35:21):
Calm in chaos means, as you'reseeing that imminent threat,
elevate.
You do this through training.
Through training, you eliminatethe bad language, you do your
tactical breathing.
You have a mantra in your headright, mine was like focus,
strength or calm power.
So you take that deep breath asyou're coming in and in my head
I blow out focus, strength andnow you're centered.

(02:35:44):
And you do this in traininglike an Olympic athlete and
you're playing these scenariosout so that when you show up on
a man with a gun call which isnot unusual you're not getting
in this hyper arousal statethat's impacting your decision
making and performance.
You're you're the first thingto de-escalation is
non-escalation in yourself, andthere's a lot of tools out there
that that professional athletesand olympians have been using

(02:36:06):
for decades and decades thatcops have now incorporated into
their training.
So when I saw that guy, he'skind of calm, he's getting his
gun up and all sides and you seehis arousal state go up and
then it's throwing out theF-bomb.
As a supervisor, I'd just beseeing those as signals of an
elevated arousal state.
He didn't go too far.
So when you're looking at theYerky Dodge, when you're looking

(02:36:27):
at the inverted U, you want tosee arousal go up so that you
have good performance.
You don't want to be too calm.
But then if they go over thatand they end up too far in the
arousal state, performance anddecision making decreases.
What are the signals of that?
It's breathing.
It's disorganized thinking,disorganized communication and
bad language.
You start to see this stuff.

(02:36:49):
This guy did a great job.
I just saw those as signals.
I would take him back and Iwould do more training with them
, do more visualization, get himto remain calm in chaos, get
that optimal arousal statewithout going too far, because
remember, we're playing to thepublic.
All that is frosting on thegate.
None of that makes us anythingother than an excellent decision

(02:37:14):
and an excellent shooting basedon what we saw in the video.
So that was just.
I just want to throw somethingin there that if I saw that for
a tactical action review, thoseare the kind of things I would
talk to the officer about.
We followed up with sometraining and tighten up his shot
, just to tighten him up.
And I don't tell it.
I just tell cops, this is justsharpening the blade, that's all
it is.
You're going to go see theblacksmith.
We're going to sharpen theblade.
We're actually going to makeyou more effective and, by the

(02:37:35):
way, that was a great.
That was a great job.

Speaker 2 (02:37:38):
And I think 100% mirror that.
And, being a firearmsinstructor for years, bringing
young guys out and I'm speakingto everybody out there that may
want to become a police officer,young folks out there that are
looking to do this that's stilla very admirable, regardless of
what you're seeing on the media.
It's a very admirable thing todo to go out there and serve the
general public as a lawenforcement officer.

(02:37:58):
But when you're coming to therange and I would bring people
out there, uh, to the range, andwhat I'm going to do is I'm
going to get that heart rate up.
You know, a lot of guys comeout at seven o'clock in the
morning.
The last thing they want to dois run 40 yard sprints three
times and then they're going tocome into a situation Well,
guess what?

(02:38:19):
That's real life.
Sometimes we have to endurethat and then you can actually
see what your body is doing onan elevated status.
So we're bonds going out withthis.
Not only does it, you know, forthe public on what we're
shouting out there and whatwe're doing is, and stuff like
that, but what's happening toour fine motor skills If we can
learn that, those breathingtechniques, and make sure that

(02:38:41):
our body physically can take thetorment of what's going to
happen on patrol on a call likethis, your breathing, your
patterns, everything going on.
And when you got to bring thisfine motor skills in it, think
about the background behind theguy with the gun.
When those two officers arehaving to deliver some rounds
downrange to stop that threat.
Let's talk about the housesthat are behind it.
Even if it's his house and it'sunoccupied, these rounds have

(02:39:03):
been known to travel very, veryfar, especially the rifle round.
So if you bring that breathingin the fine motor skills, you
eliminate that threat.
It's less chance of a child ora person or a dog or property,
something else other than theintended target, to get struck.
And that is so important intraining.
And for those of you just theSecond Amendment, folks that are

(02:39:23):
out there that want to carryand I applaud that make sure you
can apply the same things Ifyou're going to protect a third
person.
Protect yourself or a familymember that you truly understand
what your body is going throughwhen you break leather or you
come out of your holster orwherever you keep your firearm.
Of what's going on in yourbrain, housing, group in your
heart, and what your body isdoing.

(02:39:44):
You would not believe, if youlearn those calming techniques
on what that can do, and youknow shooters will call it MOA.
We're bringing in that,bringing in that those fine
motor skills to where we'rebreathing and we're pulling that
trigger to where we're hittingthe target.
That's intended and I'll shutup because I could talk for
hours on that as well.
But outstanding Vaughn, Iappreciate that.

Speaker 3 (02:40:07):
Eric says, let's be honest too, as Vaughn said, we
get these.
Calls a ton in bigger cities.
Calls a ton in bigger cities.
Call it not allowing ourselvesto not get amped up or
desensitized, because almostevery time it's nothing until we
see the weapon or until thefirst shot rings out.

Speaker 2 (02:40:28):
That is, and if you look at some of these videos out
there that they have ontraining and again we've got one
of the best experts in thecountry sitting here in this in
this live podcast with us butwhat the body does when it re,
when it, when it realizes it's areal threat, and he can
probably go into thecardiovascular and everything

(02:40:49):
that's going on in your body.
But your body goes into it and Idon't care how bad ass you
think you are when you go outthere, when you see a real
threat you know I'm a big guy,I'm 300 plus pounds and I've
gone against guys that are a lotbigger than me but when you
realize that is a true threat,your heart, your organs,
everything goes into hyperdriveto save the body.

(02:41:10):
And the side effect of that andI'm not speaking medically is
what goes on when you'redelivering your brain to tell
your finger to pull that trigger.
And it's unfortunate, butyou've got to learn on that.
And if you're carrying a gunout there as a civilian or as an
off-duty officer or on-duty onpatrol, we have got to learn on

(02:41:31):
this to make sure that if we getin a situation like this, that
our rounds are accounted for andwe're wanting them to go, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (02:41:40):
And I think one thing that gets always brought up
when I watch these videos peoplethat aren't used to the
environment you immediatelythink that somebody's out of
shape or out of you know.
When they start hearing thembreathe really heavy and things
like that, that's just a normalbody response.
I'm not saying that allofficers are in shape, but when

(02:42:04):
you, when you get to that high,your body responds and you know,
one of those ways is you haveto get oxygen to your system and
and so your body kind of takesover.
One of the things that uhshowed up for me in that video
was the.
The officers knew what kind ofcall they were going to and one

(02:42:26):
of them was ready for the calland the other one got them to
the call and jumped out with arifle.
And so many times, uh, uh, youcan tell there was good training
involved in that, because somany times we're taught not to
get our rifles out, don't touchthe right the rifle, you know is
going to escalate the situationand I, if both of them are

(02:42:48):
shooting a pistol, how much moredangerous does the sight
downrange get than having, youknow, that precision device and
precision tool available in themoment?
And then, after they utilizedthat, they put that away and
went to work to see about savingthis young man's life and

(02:43:13):
getting first aid rendered tohim.
So kudos to the officers andgetting that done.
That's what hit home for me.

Speaker 6 (02:43:23):
They did a great.
I mean you could tell they hadelevated training too.
The communication is the numberone thing you look for there.
They had good communication.
They used shorthand, so youknow they talked to each other
quite a bit.
Push, push, push, push, push,push, push, you know.
Stuff like that uh means thatthese guys are talking to each

(02:43:43):
other.
They they're used to workingtogether.
Um, I always, I always get likea little uh, when we put the
gloves on right, you shootsomebody, you got the gun one.
My primary concern there is notyet the medical, it's, it's
securing them, because we seecase after case where there's a
secondary weapon or they sprintto access that weapon.
Some guys are unconscious, theyregain consciousness and return

(02:44:05):
into the gunfight again.
These things are rare but thereare possibilities that cops are
trained to consider and soputting the gloves on, you know,
for our own safety, thatprotective device, because we
don't want to get blood on ourhands while the guy is bleeding
and why he's insecure.
Those are always judgment calls.
There's tradeoffs, there is allI'll say.
I don't think I've ever putgloves on before securing

(02:44:30):
somebody.
Once they were secure.
I might do that, you know,maybe live up, but you know,
that's just a judgment call.
It's a small thing to point out.
It kind of got me.
Now, from a litigationstandpoint, if the guy ends up
dying, they're going to point tothat.
The opposing side is going tosay, look, he's right there.
You guys are waiting andwaiting.
What is 15 seconds?
What is 20 seconds?
Well, it's a lot when it comesto bleeding out, right?

(02:44:52):
So I noticed that Again, it's alot when it comes to bleeding
out, right.
So I noticed that again, it'sfrosting.
It's a small point just to addto the conversation a little bit
um but um.
Otherwise, I thought they did.
They thought they did a greatjob.

Speaker 3 (02:45:06):
I do too I can definitely tell from the chat
that the principal is not in, uhtoday, uh controlling the chat
room because the chat room hasgotten a little questionable,
banning.
They want to see you go,commando.
It's a little awkward, but youknow.

Speaker 2 (02:45:28):
I'm hoping they just mean military mindset.
You don't want me goingcommando.
We're going to lose a lot offollowers if that happens.

Speaker 3 (02:45:36):
There are a few wanting to know about, you know,
becoming an officer at an olderage.
What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (02:45:44):
You know I commend folks that they retire from an
entrepreneurial mindset and ormilitary service and they still
have years to give, as long asthey're physically still there
and obviously mentally stillthere, even when you enter the
academy in the state of Texas.
Again, that's where we're at,so I'm going to speak on it.
You've got to go past thatpolygraph and you've got to go

(02:46:07):
past the psychologicalevaluation before you can enter
the academy and then you mayhave to do that again on the
agency that picks up yourcommission.
So there are some checks andbalances there.
Does there need to be more?
Sure, I can advocate for thatas well.
More the better, eric.
But if you want to serve andI'm going to call it the second

(02:46:30):
term of your life you've alreadyserved in one, either the
private sector, for whatever itis, I don't care if it's a
target and you're bagginggroceries for 30 years and
you're like you know what I'msick of seeing, what I'm seeing
out there.
I want to go out there and be apart of the solution.
More power to you.
If you can physically do it andyou're mentally ready for this
and your family backs you on it100%, go do it.

(02:46:50):
You know, when I went to theAcademy back in 2002, I, I went
to the Academy back in 2002.
I had a guy in there that was Ibelieve he's 55, and another
one that was approaching 58 toto go into law enforcement.
They didn't serve too much longafter they did, they did the
Academy but, but they got toserve and they got to to go out
there and I don't know if it'sproven a point to themselves or

(02:47:11):
just serving the community, butthey, they did a good job.
As far as I know, I never gotto work with them hand in hand
except in the academy and uh,age is an age man.
Uh, it's where we're at, wherewe feel, if we're physically
ready to go, do it.
You know, if I was not a cop andI was getting ready to go to
the academy in six months, rightnow, I'm going to start on my
cardio plan.
Tomorrow I'm going to drop 40pounds.
I'm going to get ready for this.

(02:47:32):
Being a former Marine, I knowthat I want to bring my 100%
best to the street if I takethat oath and I'm going to go
out there and be protectingpeople.
So, with me, physically,mentally, if you're there, go
out and serve man, go do it.
I don't care what anybody elsetells you.
If you have a heart to go dothat, go do it.

Speaker 6 (02:47:50):
I would add my framework for this has changed
over the years.
You have to admit that the wayyou think and your brain and
your body changes over time andthat's okay.
I see everybody like a baseballteam and everybody has a
different position to play.
When you're young you might bea pitcher right and you're just
going right after one after theother, or you might be the

(02:48:11):
designated hitter because you'refast or something.
That's fine, that's yourposition on the team.
But you don't put your rightfielder, who is calm, collected,
can get good beads on the ball.
He's still got some good speed,he can get there, he's got a
strong arm.
You don't put him on thepitcher's mound.
And I think when you look atcops not to take that metaphor
too far when you look at copsI'm 53 right now.

(02:48:37):
If I go out and want to work thestreet again, I'm like I know
how, what shape I'm in right nowand I know what I would work on
for me.
I would be sprinted.
I just go back and sprint somemore.
I keep up with MMA and jujitsuand that kind of stuff.
I wouldn't have any issues.
I could probably do that today.
I would go shoot right.
I do my, my qualifications formy retirement creds, but I go do
some tactical pistol coursesI've done those since I've been

(02:48:57):
retired but I would put the workback in on that so I would get
some of those skills done andthen I would slowly get back in
to the multitasking that'srequired from the radio and the
street and the MDT and yourpartner talking to you, Because
I noticed when I left the streetfor a while and then came back,
that was the hardest thing isthere's so much going on and for
some reason it seemed a loteasier before to keep it all

(02:49:19):
straight.
When I came back before it waslike, okay, slow down, you
couldn't listen to multiplefrequencies, you only listened
to your own frequency.
You turned the MDT away fromyou so you weren't glancing at
it when you're driving.
But having said that, when I wascopping in my 20s there were
people faster than me.

(02:49:40):
It didn't mean I didn't be acop.
So if I'm copping in my 50s,there's going to be people
faster than me, but I'm going tocome with a skill stack that
they don't have and they have askill stack that I no longer
have or never had, quite frankly.
Um, that's okay.
Those are just differentposition players.
This is why it's ridiculouswe're talking about our men and

(02:50:01):
women better or worse, cops orwhatever I'm like.
What position are you talkingabout, and which person, by the
way?
Because we don't do groupidentity, right.
You tell me who the person isand I'll tell you if that female
cop is better than that malecop, because you know we have
IBOs, itty bitty officers, right?
Either, regardless of sex, anIBO is not going to have the
same skill stack as your, asyour mongrel man banning over

(02:50:23):
there, Right?
So keep that in mind thatyou're not expected to come in
in your 50s and be all things inall positions.
Come in with whatever skillstack.
Recognize what your weaknessesare.
When that fast track starttakes off, running from you,
you're chasing for observation.
What is it Chase to pursue, notchase to capture at that point,
right, you keep your websitecalling in.

(02:50:46):
They can't outrun your radio,kind of stuff.
But I think you have a lot togive.
You have a ton to give, yourmaturity, your decision-making,
your life experience, yourability to build rapport and be
compassionate.
You bring a huge skill set andif you're wise enough to put the
work in on your physical skills, go do work, Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:51:08):
Absolutely so.
This question has gottenbrought up several times Vaughn
in the last two or threeepisodes.
So what do you think theminimum age should be?
Do you think that 21 shouldstay the minimum age?
What is the perfect number?
As you're seeing in some ofthese bigger cases that you you
see, and timeout.

Speaker 2 (02:51:28):
I'm going to give banning opinion on this Vaughn.
The dude is is a walkingknowledge bomb.
I'm going to give dumb copanswer and the dumb cop is to me
and I'm going to speak on.
When I was 18 in the MarineCorps, I joined the Marines and
I went to what's called MarineCorps Security Force Company and

(02:51:50):
had to go through all kinds ofclearances and learn CQB and
what's called FAST team and gota great skill set for life to go
into law enforcement.
And I was in the Southeast sideof the United States where I
was stationed the entire timethat I was in.
I never got to go on a float togo overseas.

(02:52:10):
However, things happen in lifeand I had to travel, get on a
plane as a young 18, 19-year-oldfly to Texas for family, either
a funeral, somebody's sick, ora marriage or a birth of a baby
and if I were lucky enough toget leave, I'd do that.
Here's the problem.
Banning ran into as a guy thatthe DOD, the United States
Marine Corps, said you can carryan MP5.

(02:52:32):
We're going to give you an M9,which is just a Beretta 9mm.
We're going to put all thistraining into you.
You're going to be ready toreact.
However, if you've got to geton plan and go to Dallas, if
you're not 25 years old, I hopeyou get about 300 bucks for a
taxi because the rental carcompanies do not believe that
you are mature enough to go dothat.
So this is a big argument in myhead.

(02:52:53):
There are and this is Banning'sopinion.
There's no thought other thanmy life on this.
There are some people that areready at 21 and there's some
people are not.
If you have that mental abilityat 21 and maybe you've gone
through some adult things andyou're level-headed, I think you
might be ready there.
But there's some that golly man, I've trained some cops.

(02:53:14):
I look at them I'm like how thehell are you managing a gun
sitting next to me in a patrolcar?
We're going to calls together.
Now those problems workthemselves out and they get out
of law enforcement or maybe growup a little bit.
But that's Banning's opinion.
I couldn't even rent a friggingrental car anywhere in the
country from 97 to 01 because Iwasn't old enough to rent a

(02:53:37):
rental car.
But they could put me on afrigging carrier and go overseas
and fight for the country.
So I had a problem with thatand you can sit there and say,
yeah, but you couldn't drinkeither.
You couldn't do this.
I get that, but you're eitherready at 21 or you're not.
So with Eric saying you knowaverage age of 25, I agree
You're a lot more mature at theage of 25.

(02:53:59):
Maybe you've experienced somemore things.
So I'm going to eliminateManning's opinion.
I'm going to stop and letVaughn speak, with some real
thought behind it.

Speaker 6 (02:54:07):
No, I think that is real thought and I think again,
if we're going to tell the leftwe don't do identity politics
and I'm not going to do it hereAn age is an identity group and
it depends on who the individualis in big part.
But we have to have a system bywhich we can screen them right
and bring them on and continuean evaluation once they're on.
So maybe between 21 and 25,you've got good athletic people

(02:54:29):
who have lived good lives andthey've got all the other skills
right Selfless service and dutyand physical attributes and
courage and all those goodthings we want to see in cops.
And they're 21 years old andyou make sure, from 21 to 25,
they're always with a supervisor, they're always riding two man,
so there's always that directsupervision in their judgment

(02:54:50):
and decisions and training astheir brain grows to 25, which
is, like you know, on averagewhere your brain stops
developing it's full mental.
I mean it doesn't have to stopthere, but that's the average
right?
So I can see a system by whichwe don't have to throw them all
out.
So you get 21 to 25.
If I had to have a blanketanswer 21 is way too young

(02:55:10):
that's my blanket answer to be acop.
It's just way too young, I like30s, I like 30s, and.
But it also depends on who theindividual is.
My son just became a cop at 29years old and I think that was
perfect.
He had he was military beforethat.
He had a lot of life experience, he was a bodyguard at high
levels and he became a cop.

(02:55:31):
And I'm no issues, I think he's.
He's exercising great judgmentout there and he's still young
enough and has the physicalskills to carry that stuff out.
But, um, having said all that,I mean who hasn't worked with a
40 year old cop who was the mostimmature, emotionally
unscrupulous individual outthere?

Speaker 3 (02:55:50):
right, they're the ones, uh, pulling all the pranks
.
At, uh, at.
Uh, they're the ones pullingall the pranks at role change.

Speaker 6 (02:55:59):
I think the hardest thing about the young cop, as I
saw them, is they need if youwork for a big-sized agency, in
two months they're going to getso much life experience so fast
and in two years they'recompletely different human
beings.
So the 21 year old is, no,nowhere near the same person at

(02:56:21):
23.
And you compare that 23 yearold to a 23 year old who's never
been a cop, they are notanywhere near the same human
beings.
Right that that police workwill change you and it changes
you fast.
But you need to have, I think,some direct supervision,
constant mentorship and guidanceand mirrors and feedback during
those early years.

(02:56:41):
That once you're released andyou think you've got it figured
out isn't that the problem?
Like, okay, well, you completedthe FTO program, you're good to
go, and you're like what?
22 and a half now.

Speaker 2 (02:56:52):
Yeah, I don't know how many times and this is just
a little comedy with it being ina Crown Vic, and I always
revert back to the Crown Vicjust to show my age.
You know, vaughn, can Vaughnprobably drove many, many miles
in a Crown Victoria across thecountry, but you know, sitting
there and getting that priorityone call.

(02:57:12):
And for those that don't knowwhat that is, you know something
that's I'm going to call itballs to the walls.
We've got to get there as safeas, as fast as possible to end
whatever's going on.
And you're in that car andyou're finally by yourself and
I've had a couple of instances.
You know instances getting outof training and you're, you're,
you're, get on the radio, youhit in route.
If you're looking up to have anmdt and you're going and in

(02:57:35):
your move and you're looking atyour speedometer, it's going up
and you're, you still got a fewmiles to go.
And you're like, man, this is areally bad call, I'm going to
and you look over for thatsupport, that fto that was there
, you know, for for six months,five, whatever your, your
training curriculum, it is atyour department and they're gone
.
And you, it's a great feelingwhen you're by, you know, as a

(02:57:56):
rookie, in your car and you'refinally by yourself and you're
like, oh the relief I don't havea guy yelling at me.
There's a reason for all that.
But I've had a lot of wake upmoments going to bad calls and
with an agency that actually hada little bit of money.
When I was finally with amedium-sized agency to large
size agency that I can look atthe GPS of the other cars and

(02:58:16):
I'm like I'm blowing these vetsaway.
I'm going to get there three tofour minutes faster than they
are.
And then when you get on thescene, you're like what the hell
did I?
Just, I'm here, I'm the guywith zero experience and I've
got an absolute crap storm infront of me and now I'm going to
deal with it.
And I don't know how many timesI've got an absolute crap storm
in front of me and now I'm goingto deal with it.
And I don't know how many timesI've had old guys hey, marine,

(02:58:39):
come here After a call, aftereverything's died down, do you
feel better for getting therefast?
I'm like, well, I just wantedto come here and stop the threat
.
Sir, did you get anythingaccomplished before we got there
?
No, sir, but I was here and Iwas ready to Don't move so fast
to where you could possibly hurtsomebody else on your way to
the call and allow us to comeinto a team, if the time allows,
obviously for a lot of thisstuff, you know don't outrun

(02:59:04):
your support right.

Speaker 6 (02:59:07):
You can be the fastest guy on the team and you
carry that ball into into enemyterritory and you're all alone
and unafraid and you're givingthem the ball right right.
So in the police world, you canoutrun your support too.
You show up there fast.
Now here's what I would say getthere in an observational
capacity, as long as you're notdriving cars off the road.
The one thing I would look forin young cops that demonstrates

(02:59:30):
you, you have a place at thetable, you have a place on the
team, is a recognition that theyhave a lot to learn still and
they're asking a lot ofquestions.
That's why I told my son is askmore questions, ask questions
of everybody and listen, becausethese guys, two years on, have
a ton of experience, more thanyou do, not to mention the five

(02:59:51):
years and the 10-year guys.
It comes fast and it comes hard.
Learn from these guys, but Iwould say you can be young and
if you recognize the limitationsof that position on the team,
you can be effective.
Right, you're not going tooutrun your support, you're
going to get to observationalpositions now.

(03:00:12):
Also say this that's reallyhard to get to young cops, but I
will pull them aside.
Really fast is when you get a21-year-old cop lecturing a
45-year-old business owner,giving them life advice, telling
them what to do and whatnotlike lecturing them, and you're
just like, okay, stop, that manhas forgotten more about life

(03:00:33):
than you know.
Right, and it's frustrating towatch.
But you get in that commandpresence right, and they all of
a sudden they're lecturingeverybody like they're their
parents and I'm like you're 21years old dude, that guy's like
47.
He's run, he's built businesses, you know, he's got a family
yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:00:50):
So, and just to go back on that, you know a lot of
people with, uh, my linkedinpresence and whatnot.
They're man, you must have beenjust an absolute rock star when
you started out.
No, no, absolutely I was not.
And I'm going to say his namebecause he's passed and he was
never my FTO.
But he taught me more than alot of my FTOs, from whatever

(03:01:14):
agency I was working for, hastaught me.
And his name is Officer Johnson.
He worked at Haltom City andthis dude was known for finding
burglars in between that 1 amand 5 am hour and he was a
frigging rock star at it.
Okay, we had these industrialareas down by Airport Freeway
that would just get frigginghammered by burglars in progress

(03:01:36):
.
And, uh, so I was this youngguy, uh, the guy selected for
canine.
So they put me in a rover unit.
Um, I helped the departmentwrite a grant and I'm like here
I'm the smart guy and that'sbullshit.
I'm not.
I.
I Googled some shit and learnedhow to write a grant and got
selected for K-9.

(03:01:56):
But the bottom line is, as callswere coming out and he was in
District 2, and I know I've gotsome Halton folks that are
watching this tonight so theycan relate.
Either a domestic would comeout or a disturbance to where
the officer's coming on sceneand it's either going to be an
informational report to wherewe're documentation is, may not
be an arrest and I would come in.

(03:02:18):
I'm the first one there.
I came from eight.
You know this is down on one 21.
I came from eight 20, you knowit's a 10 minute drive at the
speed limit but with it being apriority call.
I'm using my cherries andberries and I get down there and
I get in there and I got mynote, my handy dandy notepad out
and I'm getting all thesepeople's information.
And then I'm like finally thebeat officer walks in with his

(03:02:40):
cup of coffee and he's 60something years old and he's
like he just walks in and he'squiet and I'm getting all the
information.
And then he starts gettinginformation from somebody else
and then, once he's done gettingthat information, he tears it
out of his notepad, he hands itto me and he's like here you go,
you son of a bitch, this is foryour report.
And I was like oh, this is yourbeat sir.
I'm just, I was here to helpyou to get everything.

(03:03:02):
I'll write a supplement.
And he's like hey, dumbass, youwant to be first to everywhere,
you're doing everything, youwant to be this, this number one
dude on something that youdon't have to go this quick to.
It was a big life learning thingfor me.
So once I pulled about 15reports out of this guy's beat,
I learned really, really quickhey, you don't have to go to

(03:03:29):
these places and you do need torespect the beat of these guys
that have been working there 20plus years, that know most of
the people in there, and it wasa big eye opener to me.
I had some great FTOs, but theFTOs are going to teach you the
very, very basics on whatpolicies and procedures are.
They're not necessarily goingto teach you how to be a cop,
and I learned from these guysthat have the 80s and 90s and
they came up and they know howto talk to people and they do
different things.
I'm not talking about peoplethat are pulling slapjacks out

(03:03:51):
of their pockets and using themon folks like the old days.
I'm talking about guys thatstood the test of time.
They're really good policeofficers.
They may be looked at as lazybecause they're not doing a
hundred traffic stops in a 12hour period, but these guys will
catch burglars from left toright.
So I finally took my MarineCorps ego and put it aside and
said you know what I need tolearn?

(03:04:12):
I may be of the age to be apolice officer.
I'm through the training.
I've been to hundreds of callsalready, a lot of pursuits.
I'm a canine officer now andI'm a rover, so I'm not expected
to take report, but I'm outhere to produce.
Maybe it's time to go back tostep one and truly learn of what
you're supposed to do as aB-Cup.
And so I chose several peoplewithin my career that I emulated

(03:04:36):
or mirrored and that trulyhelped me design who is banning
Swetland as a law enforcementofficer.
You know, banning is adifferent person at the house,
as the husband, as the father ofhis children, stuff like that,
but but but who is banning as alaw enforcement officer?
I thought I had it figured outand I didn't.
So it's.
It's a lot for me to say that infront of however many people

(03:04:57):
are watching right now, but Ibut I'm very humbled at how we
learn as uh, as people ofsociety when we are, we get
injected into a new career and Ithought I knew everything.
I thought I was Billy bad-asscoming out of the Marine Corps.
I was in shape.
Uh, you know, my, my, my, mykukka didn't stink and I'm out
there doing the thing.

(03:05:18):
But I learned so much fromthese old guys and gals that
have gotten the picture of whatlaw enforcement truly is, and I
learned more from them than Idid from any one of my FTOs.
So I'm going to leave it atthat and we can truly learn.
So these gentlemen and ladiesthat have already lived life
being an entrepreneur orwhatever job they're in.
Man, I got something else in me.

(03:05:38):
Maybe I can go do the academyand I come out and be a school
resource officer.
I come out and be a trafficwhatever their mind and their
body will allow them to do.
If that's something that theytruly want to do, I hope, to God
, they push forward and go do it.
As long as they're able to dothat specific task.
Nice Well, alan, I think welost you.

(03:06:03):
I think you.
There we go, no.

Speaker 3 (03:06:04):
I'm here.
Well, gentlemen, it's been apleasure tonight.
We've been going strong forthree hours.
No-transcript, I'm just joking.

(03:06:42):
Uh, the question is from, uh,mr billfold and I.
I remember when he startedfollowing us.
So I'm just wondering why itseems that two cops, one donut
crew and their guests, likevaughn, are the exception
instead of the rule.
So so why?
You know?
One of the things that amazesme about when I first started
listening to the podcast is itdoesn't matter which part of the

(03:07:03):
country you go around and wherewe get the different officers
on the show.
We all tend to do the job thesame way and get the job done
the same way.
Why is it that we have thismindset?
Um, and so many officers, uh,fall off the sidewalk per se,

(03:07:27):
and I'll.
I'll leave that to you guys,you think okay.

Speaker 6 (03:07:31):
So here's what I makes her understand the
question.
I have had a career surroundedby amazing cops, like a bad cop
is the exception, they're therare exception.
We we weed them out pretty fast.
The news media looks at theplanes that crash instead of all
the planes that land safely,and then they play that on a
loop to make sure even the rareplanes that crash are played

(03:07:53):
over and over and over again tomake society have the appearance
that they should remove thelegitimacy of its law
enforcement.
The reality on the street andthe relationships with the
communities look nothing likethat in my experience.
So, by the way, my job was tonever be the best of anything as
a cop.
It was to deserve my place atthe table and to not be the weak
link, because I was surroundedby cops who were just like me

(03:08:15):
and working just as hard as Iwas.
Now we distinguished, we knewthe cops.
Like I said, it's a baseballteam.
That right fielder doesn't wantto go out.
I got a tattoo that says Signal49.
To me it means to identify,close with and destroy evil.
What it really means is out ofcar with walkie-talkie, right.
It means I'm doing foot patrol,I'm getting out into the street
.
I'm going to look for crime,I'm being proactive.

(03:08:36):
So we have Signal 49 culture,but not everybody was part of
that culture.
Some just wanted to shag callsand that was okay.
So you can kind of see withinthe agency, those who were doing
MMA, they were shooting, theywanted to be SWAT guys, they
wanted to be Signal 49 culture,they were getting after it.
And the other ones who justwanted to shag the calls, they
wanted to do the sro duties.
They wanted to and they all hada position on the team and we

(03:09:00):
and we don't judge each other,you just go put the work in and
where you with your skill set.
Um, I was surrounded by copswho ran to the sound of gunfire.
They stopped the bleeding,start the breathing.
They, they, they held the handsof people who were dying.
They, I mean, I mean it was wecould all like if this was a
great experiment if I handed outthree by five cards to your

(03:09:21):
department.
I said everybody list the topfive absolutely worthless cops
on this department.
They might be in a differentorder, but you're going to see
the same five names.
Everybody knows who the smallgroup of standout bad cops are
on any department.
So when I hear the question isare you the exception?
Absolutely not.
Like I've been surrounded mywhole career by phenomenal human

(03:09:41):
beings, men and women, who werejust getting after it, and they
were absolutely committed totheir communities.
They absolutely put the work in.
I hate this idea of legitimacy.
Like we have to earn ourlegitimacy back.
I saw the largest influence onhow cops lost legitimacy is some
cop would do something in onestate, in one city one time and

(03:10:04):
it would spread across as thoughit was representative of the
entire American law enforcement.
So that in Topeka Kansasthey're changing their policies
because of something thathappened in Minnesota and I was
like this has nothing to do withus.
Do we have a problem in TopekaKansas with that incident?
And the answer is no.
It's never happened here before.
Then why are we buying into themedia narrative that cops

(03:10:25):
across the country are racist,abusive and corrupt.
It just does not.
And and and I'll I'll end onthis the left-leaning liberal
university professors andresearchers who tried to prove
that cops are racist, abusiveand corrupt were unable to do it
, in fact showed the opposite,and so they scratched their
research and they tried it again.

(03:10:45):
They got a whole new team ofresearchers because they knew
cops are racist, abusive andcorrupt.
They just now had todemonstrate it and they got a
whole new team and they couldn'tdo it.
Look at, look at ProfessorCesario, Look at Roland Fryer,
Look at their work.
They tried to demonstrate thecorruption of cops, the racism

(03:11:07):
of cops, and they were unable todo it.
That's more reflective of theof the culture and the
profession that I knew of theculture and the profession that
I knew 100%.

Speaker 2 (03:11:20):
Man, that's amazing.
Well, Alan, I appreciate youputting these videos together
tonight, Von.
Yeah, let's talk about oursponsors for two seconds before
we end this.

Speaker 3 (03:11:30):
Go ahead, alan.
So, guys, reach out, go andtake care of our sponsors.
Ghost Patch, they have a fancy.
All their products are amazing.
This is like a real badge.
You can hear the ting this guy.

(03:11:56):
Just go to their website,website, take care of it.
They take care of us.
You know, uh, it's the smallthings like that that help us.
Help eric.
So, uh, we appreciate eric somuch and uh, um, reach, go to
our website, twocopsonedonutcomand you can see all the other
sponsors there.

(03:12:16):
We appreciate everybody beingout there tonight and joining in
with us.
Many of you have asked whywe're doing Tuesday night.
Congratulations, banning, on asuccessful anniversary.
You made it through to tonightand next week.
I do think we're trying to doMonday, but we're going to be a
little.
We're going to let you knowsooner than later.

(03:12:40):
We're just Benny and I.
Both are traveling and we'llhave another week without Eric.
So, vaughn, appreciate youhaving being here tonight and
Benny, you got anything for us.

Speaker 2 (03:12:53):
No, you know, next week, the 20th, is my birthday
and I think I'm traveling out toVegas.
I mean, that's a tough life man.
I got to travel out to Vegas onmy birthday for work, business
development, and no, you know,if we don't, monday or Tuesday
or whatever that date is, Ihaven't even looked at the
calendar, but I'm lookingforward to going out to SHOT

(03:13:14):
Show.
So those of you that are lawenforcement and reserve your
comments and you're justwatching the show, if you're
going to be out at SHOT, makesure you look up Vaughn for
science.
I want you guys to get intothis class that they're putting
on.
I mean, this is muy importante,very, very important.
You do this.
Make sure you go by and see allthe vendors that are out there.

(03:13:34):
Mark 43 is not going to have avendor this year.
I'm going out there solo.
I'm kind of scouting this.
I've been out to shot severaltimes as an officer or
purchasing agent for adepartment or a nonprofit in the
past.
But looking forward to meetingup with Vaughn, going to meet up
with Kyle Reyes.
While we're out there, we'regoing to meet up with lots of

(03:13:55):
folks.
Man, I'm pretty sure Friday'swith Frank.
Frank Slope's going to be there.
He's going to have his cameracrew there.
There's going to be a lot ofgood things going on at SHOT
Show this year.
It's getting more exciting eachyear.
This is kind of the Super Bowlfor everything hunting, some law
enforcement.
I'm saying it's probably morehunting and firearms than it is

(03:14:17):
law enforcement, but there is abig piece of that pie that is
for law enforcement out thereand I'm excited to go see uh and
get uh ingested into it andmeet a lot of new people with
different departments out there.
And thank you all so much forwatching tonight.
Thank you, alan, for doing thevideos.
Von takingughn taking your timeout.
Let me explain to everybody.

(03:14:39):
I texted Vaughn two hoursbefore we went live and I said
probably not going to happen.
Would you like to come on theshow?
Vaughn, real quickly is likeI'm in period, period, period.
I probably should have put inthat text it's in two hours, not
tomorrow night.
Yeah, I was like we should haveput in that text it's in two
hours, not tomorrow night.

Speaker 6 (03:14:55):
Yeah, hey.
I do want to thank you guys forhaving me, though.
This is a lot of fun.
I enjoy it.
Tuesday, january 23rd at SHOTShow.
1045 AM is when we start.
Tuesday, january 23rd, shotShow.
It's Vertra, the simulatorcompany, and Force Science
putting on joint training.
Come out and see us.
And also, I'm just going to askI'm on LinkedIn only.

(03:15:16):
4science is on Facebook.
It's on social media, it's onLinkedIn, I'm just on LinkedIn.
If you guys come in, connectwith me on there, bring a couple
of your friends, connect withme, follow us.
4science News is free.
You can sign up for it.
We won't sell your emails.
I've got another article comingout tomorrow.
I think you guys will like it,at least the stuff I write.

(03:15:38):
I try to write it for thecommunity and for cops, to set
realistic expectations, so Ithink you're going to enjoy it.
Give a good perspective onwhat's actually going on out
there.
But connect with me on LinkedInand bring some friends.
I'm trying to get thoseconnection numbers up so we can
extend some influence.
And again, everybody, thank youfor your attention, for staying

(03:15:58):
with us this late.
I absolutely appreciate it.
Thank you, banning and Alan,for having me and Eric, if
you're still watching, thank youfor having me as well.

Speaker 2 (03:16:07):
I'm sure Eric's still watching Sure, sure, he is,
even though he's out of pocketand doing that thing.
This is his baby.
I'm sure he's watching.
And Eric, he's done an amazing.
This is Eric's baby.
We're all here just to helpkind of push it along, but Eric
has done an amazing job doing,you know, two cops, one donut,
and I'm glad to be a small part.
I know Alan is too, and Vaughn,this is your second time.

(03:16:29):
You've blessed us with yourpresence and just from the
comments on there, the peoplethey're loving it, man, they
know that you have thebackground for it and we
appreciate your time, brother.

Speaker 3 (03:16:41):
So, thank you.
We'll have to make sure to putyour name as Wizard Vaughn next
time.
We got Big Rope.

Speaker 6 (03:16:48):
Wizard Vaughn.
They're going to insult me whenthey call me an attorney.

Speaker 4 (03:16:58):
I was like they say a cop of the law degree if you
want to have me buy you a drink?

Speaker 6 (03:17:01):
Hey, thank you guys.
I'm going to say goodnight,appreciate it, y'all.

Speaker 2 (03:17:04):
You bet Vaughn Hang around for two seconds.
Vaughn, we're about to go off,but appreciate it, guys.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (03:17:08):
Night guys.

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