October 25, 2024 • 55 mins
Join us as we explore the intersection of professional achievements and cultural heritage with our special guests, Josh McLennan, a European patent attorney, and Nikkei, a technical director and diversity advocate. Discover how the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys is embracing democracy with an upcoming presidential election, a decade since the last contested race. Our guests share their unique journeys in the fields of patent law and engineering, offering insights into the importance of diversity and inclusion within these industries.
The episode takes an introspective turn as we examine Britain's complex race relations history, from past economic motivations behind policy decisions to the resurfacing of racial tensions today. We tackle the critical need for open conversations around systemic inequality and the role of allyship in creating lasting change. Through a mixture of personal anecdotes and historical reflections, we invite listeners to engage with the past and its influence on our present and future, underscoring the importance of continuous learning and connection.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Hey Gwilym.
Two podcasts in a row, oneafter the other.
This is quite cool.
Two podcasts in a pod.
Two podcasts in a pod.
Have you done anything excitingsince yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I think about four hours between them or something.
So no, no, no, no, I didn't.
I can absolutely say no, Ididn't do anything.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Something exciting has happened in the world of
SEPA since we recorded yesterdayand these will actually go out
out of sequence, so this podcastwill go out before the one we
recorded yesterday, becausethat's how things work in the
world of podcasting.
We've launched the election forSIPA president for 2026.
How exciting is that?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It is Well, it's not that often contested, was it
quite a few years?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yes, it's been 10 years since we last had an
election for CEPA president, sowe don't do it very often but,
as I keep saying, I think it'sgood, it's healthy, to have an
election.
I think you know CEPA's interms of the work that it does
for its members.
We've done all sorts of amazingthings in the last few years
CPTPP.
We've withstood a pandemic,we've navigated Brexit, we've
helped our members through thelaunch of the UPC, so we're
doing some some really, reallybig stuff at the moment.
(01:24):
So I think it's quite nice thatthe members get the opportunity
to have a little think aboutwho their next president will be
and have a say in that.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think it's nice that people are fighting to get
the job.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
That's also kind of a new thing.
When are you going to do it, bythe way?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's a democratic process.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I don't know.
It's a democratic process.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I don't know.
It's up to the voters, isn't it?
Oh no, when are you going tostand?
I'm going to stand.
I think I've got a couple ofyears in me yet of actually, you
know, learning the ropes Stilllearning the ropes.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
If you don't become president before I retire as
chief executive, I will feeldeprived and cheated.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It's up to the voters Lee.
It's up to the voters Lee.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
It's up to the voters .
So crack a podcast.
Today we're here with twoguests because we're looking at
Black History Month, which iswhy the timing of this one is
important.
It's why it'll go out early inthe series, so that we time it
with Black History Month, andshould we get our guests on,
would that be a good place tostart.
Let's yeah, josh, do you wantto go first?
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Yeah, of course.
Hey, great, great to see youguys.
Uh, so my name is josh mclennan.
I'm a european patent attorneyabout to take my uk exams in
less than a week, so busycramming.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, um.
And yeah, so I work in norway,um, for a firm called honza
patent bureau.
I'm currently based in.
Yeah, I've been in theprofession for five years.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The Norway move is a fairly recent one, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So I used to actually work withGryllum, which is fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I'm understanding that you would run away to
Norway.
That makes absolute sense.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
I moved about, yeah, about a year and a half ago now.
I moved first to Stavanger,which I don't know if you've.
I'd never heard of Stavangerbefore I decided to move there.
Um, and it is a kind of it's arelatively small city, it's like
140,000 on the west coast ofNorway.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
So, yeah, just ready for a bit of a change and, yeah,
I was there for about a yearbefore moving across to Oslo and
there's um, there's, there'sstarting starting to be quite a
community of UK patent attorneysin kind of Nordic countries and
we're very excited becausewe've got our first Nordic
regional meeting in a few weekstime.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited, I think, that it took
me a while to figure out whatthe difference was between
Nordic and Scandinavian.
Oh, can you explain it?
Because I'm using I think I can, I think I can.
So Nordic includes Denmark,norway, sweden, finland, also
(03:54):
Iceland and the Faroe Islands,whereas Scandinavia is just
Sweden, denmark and Norway.
Ah, got it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Okay, so I think I'm using the term correctly, then
yes, yeah yeah, we went for asbroad as possible.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
That's hence the Nordic yeah, so really excited.
That's going to be in Oslo inabout a month now, so yeah,
should be good fun.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Lovely to have you on the podcast and also we've got
a returner to the podcast, soobviously we didn't put her off
too much last time.
Nikkei, welcome back to thepodcast, remind us who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So my name is Nikkei.
I am a technical director at acompany called WSP, which is an
engineering consultancy where Ilead a team of
telecommunications engineers,and I am also chair and
co-founder of the Associationfor Black and Minority Ethnic
Engineers UK, and I wear manyother hats which I won't talk
(04:48):
about just now.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Thank you.
Thank you and welcome back tothe podcast.
Have you done anything excitingsince the last time you were on
?
I did see that you werepromoting on LinkedIn, so big up
to you for that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yes, yeah, I don't think I've done anything
exciting.
Yes, yes, yeah, I don't thinkI've done anything exciting.
I've just done what I well,what I've always done, which is
just carry on trying to make itand I know this sounds a bit but
make a change and make adifference in the world of
(05:20):
engineering and just showcasethat you know there's not just
me.
I think one thing that we'vedone is we had our big annual
conference in April at the KiwiCentre and that was just an
amazing, amazing event.
We had around 600, 700 engineersin that space and you know,
most people come to those eventsand think, well, I've never
seen so many diverse people.
(05:40):
We had people from allbackgrounds, that people at
different levels, soprofessionals, students, uh, you
know people that retired evenum in that space.
So yeah, that's.
I guess that's one of the mostexciting things I've done since,
uh, the last time we spoke, oh,wow, welcome back.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
So, william, um not to put you on the spot, like
we've not actually said much yet, where, where do?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
you think we should start?
I think we should start withthe history of Black History
Month.
So how did Black History Monthitself begin, and then we can
talk about Black History Month.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Fantastic.
Yeah, I actually wrote anarticle about this a few years
ago, but I'm literally trying toscrabble through my memory bank
.
But I seem to remember it beganin 1960s, 1980s, maybe, nikkei,
maybe you can help me out hereand I'll have to check it out
(06:32):
myself.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I think it's 80s.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
I don't think it's the 60s yeah yeah, and initially
, I think an important thing tomention is that initially black
also covered people from otherminority ethnic backgrounds, um,
so mainly people from visibleminority ethnic backgrounds, and
over time it's kind of become,uh, people of kind of african
heritage.
But it's important to saybecause still many people from
(06:56):
non, with non-african heritage,still celebrate black history
month and it's important to saythat that's also valid what do
you think the impetus was forkind of starting off the whole
movement?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well it was about, as I understand it, it was about
celebrating the.
I think it was to do with theabolition of slavery and it was
about kind of celebrating thatrenewal and it was more of a
Caribbean kind of celebrationwithin the UK.
It was all about that, but itwas started off by someone from
(07:31):
I think I think I'm not 100%,but I think it was started by
someone from Ghana that come tothe UK and had decided that this
was a thing.
When you asked about BlackHistory Month, I was thinking I
don't actually know when BlackHistory Month starts in America
and how long it's been, becauseit's um, I think I think they
were before the UK Black HistoryMonth.
(07:52):
They celebrate their BlackHistory Month in February, for
example so I think they weredoing it before the UK even
started.
Now I need to find out about uhhow and why they did um start.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But yeah, that's uh that's it it's a bit meta asking
about the history of blackhistory month, so sorry I heard
about.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I mean, someone talked about it.
Um, I attended somethingrecently and someone talked
about it.
That's the only reason why Iknow.
That's the only reason why Iknow anything about it.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Otherwise, rather than the history, can we talk
about the importance why?
Why is it important, did I say?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
or do you?
Yeah, I just kind of feel likeI was talking so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
So I I think black history month is important
because it just keeps racialissues on the agenda.
Of course, for me, blackhistory is not just confined to
one month.
The black history is my life.
So I think it's important tohave this kind of beacon every
(08:59):
single year where people arereminded of our existence
because still in some industries, still in some spaces, there
are not many of us.
I think it's changing.
I think things have definitelyimproved over the past 20 years
to some extent, but definitelyfrom when my parents were
younger, things have radicallyimproved.
(09:20):
But I think it's stillimportant because we've still
got so far to go, still got somuch police violence against
people with African heritage inthe UK and that until that goes
away and until things are trulyequal, I think we'll still
(09:40):
continue to need Black HistoryMonth.
But I look forward to the daywhen we no longer need it.
But I think it will continuefor the rest of my life at least
.
I don't know what you guysthink yeah, no, I have to agree.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I think black history month is every everybody's
history number one.
Black history should becelebrated as part of uk history
, I think.
I think I think it's importantbecause, as josh was saying, you
know there are stillstereotypes of what it means to
be black.
I did a talk yesterday talkingabout why we started AFBE and
how it was linked to primarily,the stereotype around the prime
(10:14):
minister at the time saying thatblack culture was responsible
for knife crime in London in2007.
So it's really important that wecontinue to share our stories
and I really like the theme thisyear around reclaiming
narratives because I think it'sabout us taking control and
telling our own stories andshowing the power that we
(10:35):
possess to make a difference andto make change happen.
You still go online and youknow I'm often not looking for
trouble, but many times I stillgo online and I find people
saying black people didn fortrouble, but many times I still
go online and I find peoplesaying black people didn't
invent anything, and so on andso forth, and so months like
this opportunities to showcasethe rich heritage we have, the
things that we have done, and togive people a moment of just
(10:58):
appreciation of not everythingyou hear on the media and that
is negative is actually true.
So yeah, for for me it's reallyimportant and, as Josh said, I
think we will continue tocelebrate Black History Month
until we all realise it is partof all our histories.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I think I also want to add on top of that what you
said about reclaiming narrativesis so important, I think, up
until kind of internet andpeople being able in some ways
to distribute their owninformation and express
themselves and other peoplebeing able to hear it.
If you go back 100 years ago,it's much more difficult for
(11:33):
black voices to be heard, and sothe narratives which I kind of
I learned in school are ones inwhich there is a kind of long
history of printed media, andthat's not necessarily black.
You know, there is some blackhistory, but what black history
(11:55):
is spoken of in in these kind ofold books and encyclopedias and
the rest of it is a very, veryparticular view.
So I think we're still kind ofat the beginning, in some ways,
of uh, being able to reclaim thenarrative in a way in which, um
, yeah, we'll hopefully bebeneficial for, um, like the
next generation I mean it isreally interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I studied history up to a level.
It's pretty unusual for apattern of turning.
Actually I don't remember why,but obviously it's all the
history books are written by thepeople who write the history
books, and so you therefore,what you learn, what the history
learns, dictated by the peoplewho write the books and what
they write about.
So, for example, I did studyquite a lot of history about
kind of Africa, but it was allfrom complete white colonial
(12:38):
perspective of you know who hada war with who in Africa, rather
than anything about the actualhistory there.
And so, yeah, I can, I can tellyou.
So I didn't learn anythingabout actual black history at
any point during it, becausethat's not what it was in the
books and so, as you say, thenarrative kind of the narrative
controls what you learn.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So it doesn't, it doesn't need shifting, yes yeah,
yeah um, the other day we had,uh, we have a.
So as part of AFB we have ablack history month quiz and I
usually challenge people to, andwe had the the black history
month quiz amongst the boardmembers and you know even things
that people you'd assume peoplewould know um sometimes and
(13:19):
they don't know because that'snot what they've been exposed to
, that's not what they've beenexposed to, that's not what
they've been taught at schooland so they don't know.
For example, we had one aboutthe particular technique that we
use within engineering, calledthe court process, which was
actually a process that was by aguy called I think it's Henry
(13:40):
Court I'm not 100%, but that'sC-O-R-T, that's his name and he
stole this technique ofprocessing iron from the
Caribbean.
So he'd stolen it from Jamaicaand what he did was that these
(14:00):
slaves in Jamaica at the timehad brought this technique.
They come from West Africa andhad brought this technique and
they were using it to processthe iron.
And what he'd done is that he'dstolen that process, come to the
UK, presented it as his own,patented it as his own, and it's
(14:20):
still called the process upuntil today and up until I think
it was two years ago there wasan article in the Guardian that
talks about what he actually did, which was still that process
burn down the factory in Jamaicaso that there was no record of
what he had done, and presentedit as his own.
(14:40):
So you know, you will find outabout those sort of things as
his own.
So you know, you'll find outabout those sort of things.
One, it gives us a sense ofpride in what those people had
to go through and what they hadto.
You know what they kind ofcreated.
They created all theseprocesses and these things and
no one actually knew about it,and so I'm glad that there's
(15:08):
Black History.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Month because we can share those stories, stories, uh
, particularly inventions forfrom people of black heritage.
So I have a small experience ofthis which, um, I don't know,
I've probably not even shared itwith william.
So before are you getting a bitof echo from me?
Because I could hear a bit ofecho from me now?
Okay, cool.
Yeah, so I used to be theregional secretary, district
secretary of the workerseducational association thames
and solent, which is the thamesand solent district of the wea,
which is, uh, has always beenreally into community outreach,
(15:32):
education and reaching perhapsgroups of people who are
disadvantaged in some way.
So we had lots of centres.
We had centres in southampton,um, particularly in reading and
and I'm talking now late 90sthrough to the early 2000s, and
we would celebrate Black HistoryMonth.
We would particularly celebrateit in our centres, and for me
(15:53):
as a white person and for otherwhite people who were able to go
along to these events, it wasjust an amazing learning
opportunity and not just aboutthe history as you were talking
about it there Culture, food,art, entertainment, all of those
kinds of things that Iotherwise wouldn't have had a
perspective on.
So I think I would argue it'sas important for people from
(16:14):
outside of those backgrounds tobe aware of it and be involved,
as it is for people within themto celebrate, because for me
it's just a fantastic learningopportunity.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Yeah, I also want to actually add on top of that, and
so my dad's dad is from Jamaica.
My dad's mom is from theSeychelles.
My dad was born in Bradford, inthe north of the UK, but a lot
of this kind of black history,black culture, was not passed
down to him, so what that meantis that my mom is white, grew up
(16:44):
working class in Bradford aswell, mainly Irish ancestry, and
so I kind of, I guess, grew upin a bit of a black cultural
vacuum.
I, you know I'm learning somuch stuff about kind of African
history, caribbean history, um,kind of african history,
(17:07):
caribbean history, even likeblack british history, things
which were not part of my kindof normal learning experiences
growing up.
So, uh, lee, as much exactly asfor you, you know you're
learning things from the verybeginning as well.
Like I, I'm also in that camp.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
I think it's all of us actually.
I think that's the importanceand beauty of Black History
Month actually, because I thinkit helps us reflect on those and
actually learn.
Because, for example, I onlyfound out on QI that there was a
state in Nigeria that hadstreetlights before most parts
(17:43):
of the world.
I found out on QI.
I was quite embarrassed this is, this is, this is, and you know
, um, you know, I, I kind ofpride myself in I, I learn about
things, I know about things, Iread about things, but I, I
didn't know.
So I think we're all on thatjourney of learning and
(18:04):
regardless of how much you wereexposed to your history and your
background and stuff, I'm nowkind of trying to do a family
tree back, you know, to find outwho my ancestors were and you
know, find out.
Actually, some of my ancestorsended up in Haiti and so on.
Uh and uh, and I'm Nigerian, so, you know, you kind of think,
(18:27):
okay, this is interesting, um,so I think the reason why I'm
saying this is I think I thinkwe're all kind of all on that
journey of learning and findingout that we are.
We are one, we're all connectedand, two, finding out the rich
heritage where we've come from.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Um, so, yeah, I think it's a really important thing
how is it that you're lookingout for your, your family tree?
Have the records beendigitalized, like in in nigeria,
or is it more a case of youknow, calling someone to go and
they?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
go to a particular parish, yeah, okay, people to
ask questions, uh, pesteringcousins, uncles, aunties,
pestering people, just because Iwant to make this tree and kind
of understand what my heritageactually is, because it's an
interest of mine, because youwatch, you watch all these
programs and you know all thesecelebrities go on these programs
(19:21):
and they you know, I feel a bitenvious, and of them when I you
know, when they say you know, Iknow, you know links to this
and that, and I'm like I have noidea.
Actually, for me it's kind ofpiece, trying to piece together
as much as I can because youknow, as you know, um in in in
Africa in general, in generalthey didn't document in terms of
(19:43):
paper.
They told stories and storieswere passed down from generation
to generation and if you'relucky, if you have someone that
is really elderly within thefamily, then they probably know
way back when who was connectedto who and who married who and
whose child who is.
So, yeah, just trying to pieceit together.
It's uh, it's been interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So far I'm not there yet, but yeah, what's the
reaction from your family whenyou you phone up and say I want
to start hearing about youraunties and uncles and they're
saying what are you doing, orthey get really interested and
get engaged.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I mean I think I've got a, a family that's already
really engaged, so everyone'slike, oh really, oh, that's
interesting, good, but it's allthat's interesting.
Good luck, yeah, let us knowwhen you have it.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
I went through a similar process, actually during
during COVID.
Um, I started to try to piecetogether my family tree, but
often basically only a fewrecords have been digitalized in
jamaica and most of it is justcalling people and go, then
going to particular churches andlooking at the church records
(20:56):
to see who was married there andso on and so forth.
So after I don't know, it wasmuch easier to kind of go down
my mom's side of the familybecause things were generally
documented and all scanned inand digitalised, which was
really, really helpful.
But it's a bucket list thing ofmine to generate a family tree
(21:17):
of both sides of my family andfigure out what's going on there
my only reference point, and Ican only imagine how difficult
it is, because I did mine duringlockdown, I think, oh you did.
Yeah, oh, wow I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
I mean, as you'll guess from the name my, my
background is welsh and that wasthat was tough enough, but not
because records were difficult,just because there was so much
inbreeding, I think.
And I think I think I'll leaveit there.
Okay, I've got a great story totell about it.
I'll tell next time we're inthe pub.
I'll tell you about thedifficult lineage that I
discovered, ok.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Is it more of a family circle than a family tree
?
It's a family circle.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, also not for too much detail, but I find that
about my great grandmother onone side and she had quite a
lively life.
A lot of kids.
Anyway, another story, story,another day um I was actually
going to go back in the case.
That's okay.
You mentioned about the kind of, I think, in the ip, what we
call the traditional knowledge.
(22:16):
It's quite a nice link actually, but you've got these kind of
technologies or often it'smedicines and things from areas,
and they've been appropriatedand taken away and I think one
of the benefits I'm getting thefeel of raising this awareness
is that action is now beingtaken.
I mean, you can't get the steelprocess back, kind of thing,
(22:36):
but certainly on the medicalside they're calling it
biopiracy now, which I think isa good, honest name for what can
go on.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
I think you know.
To be honest, it just it hurtsall of us not to know.
I think the idea that someonetakes someone else's invention
or creation and calls it theirown hurts all of us, because it
takes away from the heritage ofone person and makes the other
(23:05):
person, gives the other personan assumption that this is their
heritage and when it all comescrashing down, when people
realize actually, um, it'sdifficult to take um because
you've all your life you'veyou've thought of this as part
of what you did and what youcreated, and to find out it's
not actually the case.
It's.
It's damaging to everybody andI think I'm glad that people are
(23:28):
looking at that now and I'mglad that these things are being
exposed for what they are,which is, as you say, piracy.
This is what they really are?
Speaker 4 (23:36):
I thought you were just about to speak.
I'm sorry, I didn't want to cutbreathing.
I was mouth breathing, sorrywe've talked about your
experiences and things that, um,that you do generally.
What sort of things happenduring black history month?
What, what, the?
What sort of the big ticketstuff that people should be
looking out for?
Speaker 5 (23:52):
I.
I think in-person events numberone, um, just so you can go and
connect with other people whoare interested.
You meet allies, you meet alsoother people with african
heritage as well.
Last weekend here in Oslo, Iwent to a lecture by a British
(24:15):
professor about the history ofpan-Africanism.
That was just such aninteresting event because, be
frank, like being someone who'snot white, living in a
predominantly white country,living in Western Europe, you're
always to some extent going tobe a minority.
(24:36):
So going to that event and youknow, were black people a
majority?
No, absolutely not.
Black people are about 20% ofthe event.
But still, to see so manyallies and it just makes you
feel more comfortable and likepeople care, um, so it's, it's
good to also, yeah, connect withallies as well as um, as well
(24:58):
as like minority ethnic people.
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I think.
I think quite the same.
I think in-person events are soimportant.
But also this year we decidedas AFBE that we were going to do
a weekly series on differenttopics.
So we had our first one onintersectionality, the second
one on allyship, the onetomorrow is actually on the
ethics of ethnic diversity,which talks about some people
(25:25):
like to call it the history ofracism because it talks about,
it makes us realise that racismhasn't been around forever.
It's only about 300 years oldand it only started based on
certain kind of situations thatled to it.
And then I'm doing the last oneon the 30th of October.
Then I'm doing the last one onthe 30th of October, on
(25:48):
understanding the barriers ofbarriers for people from diverse
backgrounds within engineering,barriers for recruitment,
retention and progression.
So we this is the first yearwe've actually decided to do
something definite Black HistoryMonth, because, as an
organisation that representsblack and minority ethnic
engineers, that represents blackand minority ethnic engineers,
(26:09):
we specifically were quitecareful not to say, you know,
have everything within blackhistory month, so that people
thought, okay, that's the monthto engage with this organization
and then we don't have to worryfor the rest of the year.
So so, yeah, so we, we do that.
But we also had a veryinteresting um round table on
allyship.
Um, because, you know, um, whengeorge floyd happened, you know
, everyone was talking there'sblack squares and so on and
(26:30):
everywhere and then, uh, therace riots happened and people
came out and showed amazingsupport to say, you know, we
don't want this.
And then after that everyone'skind of forgets about it until
the next thing happens and theneveryone is, you know, raising
awareness.
So we had this roundtablearound how we can keep the
momentum kind of going aroundthese topics.
And they don't.
(26:51):
They're not just topics,they're parts of things that we
do on a day-to-day basis.
So an ally you know, oli,co-founder of AFI, and also my
brother often says that allyshipis a battle scar, not a badge
often says that allyship is abattle scar, not a badge.
So understanding that and justkeeping it kind of that
conversation going allthroughout the year is really
important.
(27:11):
But, yeah, those events,there's also actually an event
we're taking Black History Monthinto November, so on the 1st of
November, because, yeah, we arehaving a Reclaiming Narr
narratives, our showcase.
So it's everything from alecture to panel to party,
because, yeah, that is also partof our culture, um, that we're
(27:34):
hosting.
So, yeah, that's obviously, uh,a time to meet in person a lot
of people and just have thoseconversations as well.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I want to pick up, if I can, on allyship.
You both mentioned it, leementioned it as well.
Uh, he's one of the mosthelpful words I've come across
as somebody you know who's notfrom a particularly well, that's
not for a diverse background atall.
I'm from a nice, comfortable,privileged background where
everything's been really quiteeasy and I, I accept it and I'm
very lucky and I realized just Ibegin to realize just how lucky
(28:04):
I am through meetings like thisand discussions like this.
We're having a session onallyship, just kind of quickly
promoted, actually through IP,inclusive in November.
Um, check it out on the website, uh, where we're talking how to
be, how to be a good ally,because I think it's you know,
from my perspective is the bestway it's the best way I can
provide for not getting so.
I feel like I'm almostintruding sometimes.
(28:25):
I want to help, so quickguidance.
It's not a bad about the scar.
I like that.
What do we need to do?
What's what does good allyshiplook like?
Speaker 5 (28:33):
yeah, I, I think good allyship looks like emotional
intelligence, just being therefor people and just being
curious.
You know, I think everythingkind of stems from a genuine
feeling.
Yes, there will be times whenthings are awkward, but if you
feel awkward, you know, feelfree to just ask someone you
(28:53):
know, state how you feel, sayyou know I feel awkward around
this topic.
Is there anything you think Ishould be doing which I'm not,
or likewise, or, you know, justkeep the conversation flowing.
Don't feel like you have tokind of, uh, keep everything in
for fear of being exposed, asyou know, a non-genuine ally.
(29:14):
I think it comes across very,very clearly when, when someone
is genuinely engaged and justwants to help out another human
being.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I think that um yeah, absolutely agree with what josh
has said, specifically aroundthe lack of comfort.
You know, allies um often areuncomfortable and that's okay.
I mean, uh, you know, andthat's okay, because I don't
think people say that enough,but that's okay, but it is
(29:43):
actually okay.
Um, there's a, there's anallyship continuum I don't know
if you've heard of it by a ladycalled jennifer brown.
It's called.
It's.
It's a kind of a, a chart of aprogress journey and obviously
you don't want to, you don'twant to mark yourself against it
, but it starts from apathy andgoes all the way to advocate.
So you start, an ally willstart from a place of you know
(30:05):
like okay, and then awareness,being aware of the issues, and
then becoming active and thenbecoming an advocate.
So it's a, it's a journey, andyou know we can all be allies as
well to other.
You know we all have some levelof privilege in a different
space, so we can all be allies.
But that alliance of continuumhas personally really helped me
(30:26):
to be able to sort of assessmyself against where I am on
that journey so regards tocertain things.
Um, within, for example, for me, within the engineering sector,
um, whilst we have a dominanceof men, and men represent over
kind of 84 percent of I meanengineering black men in
(30:49):
particular and black andminority men in particular you
don't see them at thoseleadership levels and I see how
the power play in meetings andso on and how I have actually an
advantage by being a female inthat environment and using my
tools within my allyship toolkitto advocate in those
(31:12):
environments is really important.
So, yeah, it's a.
It's a um.
I encourage you if you haven'theard of it before, I'm assuming
you have look it up.
It's a really good one to tostart looking at and mapping
where you are in certain thingsI think william's already doing
it.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I think he might be thinking about this being
something we can weave into theallyship event we've got oh you.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So yes, I'm also going to pretend I've heard of
the allies I could.
I could see your little cogsgoing inside your obviously
you'll all know about the otherthing, so this is great for me,
thank you very much I.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
I just wanted to add as well, you know this, as
you're mentioning Nikkei on theAlashar continuum about what was
stage two Was that kind ofawareness, awareness.
Awareness, you know, if you'renot from a minority ethnic
background, you can't beexpected to have an intuitive
understanding of all the issuesfrom the get-go.
You know, gaining thisawareness requires, you know,
(32:09):
reading black produced media,whether that's like particular
books or black films, likethere's loads of like beautiful,
what fantastically directedafrican films from senegal, from
the 1960s.
There's all sorts's, all sortsof information out there, and
it's not that you need to readand watch absolutely everything,
(32:32):
just see what appeals to you.
What do you find interesting?
What's your easy way in?
To some extent, and also beingkind of critical about what it
is that you're digesting is, isit, you know, this person's from
a minority ethnic background,but they're from, they're
actually quite privileged in inother ways?
(32:53):
You know, are they all from theuk but from the minority ethnic
background?
Um, I think, just having a kindof making sure that what you're
digesting is as diverse aspossible, um, I think that can
also be useful for for gainingperspectives into um kind of
different people's experiences.
Uh, as a person from a minorityethnic background in the uk,
(33:15):
but also kind of or a non-whitebackground worldwide, because
white people are the minority inthe world.
You know that's something inwestern europe we forget it's.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
I mean, it's amazing when these, these sort of ideas
can pop up.
So I listen to podcasts rest ishistory, and at the moment it's
discussing the frenchrevolution, and the one I
listened to yesterday was aboutthe kind of the creation of the
guillotine, just so.
That's kind of that's thecontext.
And then in deep in thediscussion, the host is talking
about the, the rights of man,the rights to freedom and all
(33:47):
these kinds of things.
And then I learned that therewas a big movement during the
French Revolution to move awayfrom slavery, because that
obviously spoke against therights of man and instead to and
to do away, to abolish thedeath penalty and instead to to
use people who would otherwisebe subject to the death penalty
(34:08):
as, if you like, the replacementfor slave labour.
That conversation was happeningin the 1770s, 1780s.
I just found that fascinatingthat it was that deep-rooted in
history.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
You might find an interesting book.
It's a well-known book.
It's called the Black Jacobinsby CLR James, and it's all about
the Haitian revolution, whichis also occurring at the same
time, and that's very much aboutthe kind of interplay between
(34:40):
the Royalists and theRepublicans in France and how
they're backing different groupsin Haiti, which was a slave-led
rebellion which was ultimatelysuccessful.
But you might find thatinteresting because that links
very, very much to what you'resaying.
I think it's this very FrenchRevolution.
So many very, very interestingideas which seem so forward
(35:04):
thinking, but how many of themreally got implemented?
You know, it's just things like, um, I think, with the spring,
splitting the day into 10 hoursand having uh, 100 minutes uh in
each, in each hour, but ofcourse the the duration of the
minute is different to our, ourminute just absolutely bizarre
ideas, but it just shows um kindof uh, I guess, the creativity
(35:26):
on on their part I guess because, because I am such, I mean I've
, unlike guillermo, I didn'tstudy history at school, I
wasn't particularly turned on atschool.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
I left as early as I could, 15 to start working on a
building site, yeah, um.
So history is something thatcame late to me and I have an
inexhaustible capacity for it,and I find it extraordinary how
most of the conversations wehave now around all sorts of
issues race and others have justbeen played out through history
, over and over yes, yes, um,one thing I really like about
(35:57):
learning, particularly about umkind of yeah, 17th, 18th, 19th
century history, particularlywhen it comes to racism and
slavery.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
It's just how you know.
We look back and we think, oh,everyone was just comfortable
with slavery.
They just had no idea what wasgoing on and they just thought
black people were animals andyeah, it's just how it was.
Well, no, that's actually notthe case.
The majority of people probablydid not support slavery in any
way whatsoever.
It was only in the interest ofvery few industrialists who saw
(36:33):
a business opportunity, and thephilosophy was designed to match
that and to provide somejustification, so people didn't
feel so bad.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Most people come to it through the lens of the
American Civil War, don't they?
And the kind of slavery andanti-slavery, good versus evil,
those kinds of things, and it'ssuch a narrow lens.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So one thing which I found veryinteresting about that Black
Jacobins book is one of what CLRJames kind of argues throughout
.
I think pretty much the firstthird of the book is that
Britain's abolition of the slavetrade was not a sudden change
(37:23):
in conscience of its colonies inthe Caribbean.
So Haiti in particular, was aformer French colony called San
Domingo, and the conditionsthere were so bad that basically
once enslaved Africans weredelivered to Haiti, they often
(37:43):
didn't survive their fulllifetime.
They would die after.
I think the average expectancywas somewhere between five and
ten years, whereas theconditions in other British
colonies, such as Jamaica,allowed basically the slave
population there to becomeself-sufficient.
So the Britons decided thatthey didn't need the slave trade
(38:05):
anymore because their coloniesalready had the slaves.
So they abolished thetransatlantic slave trade rather
than slavery.
You know, and why would you dothat?
The reason is because Franceneeded the slave trade in order
to keep its colonies going.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
There's a whole podcast here, isn't there?
There is.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
It's absolutely so.
When I you know, even on kindof like left-leaning, like media
sites and very liberalcolumnists talking, you know,
praising Britain's abolition ofthe slave trade and the rest of
it, it's like you people don'tactually know the history.
The history is much moreinteresting than that, um it's.
(38:48):
It's not about good or bad,it's about you know what's what
actually happened I really likethat last statement.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
It's not about good or bad, it's about what really
happened and I think that'soften missed when people talk
about, uh, the history of, of.
I think that's often missed.
I don't know if you've heard ofthe is it Crania Americana?
It's a thing that it was calledscientific, the age of
(39:14):
scientific racism and how theyhad studied.
According to them, they hadstudied the black people's brain
and they had worked out thatthese people don't have the
capacity to revenge what hadhappened to them.
They hadn't.
They didn't have the capacityto take revenge on what had
happened to them.
(39:34):
So even the people that weresupporting the abolitionist
slavery that was one of theirarguments to say, actually, you
know, these people are not thatclever, they, they're not going
to come back and do anything.
So this is a good argument tokind of think.
Well, that was one of theirarguments.
(39:57):
You kind of think so.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
This is one of these podcasts where we could
literally go on forever.
I mean, I'm so fascinated bythe bowl of this that, yeah,
we'll probably have to doanother one, I think.
But good to know is that one ofmy jobs is timekeeper, and I'm
conscious that we're time's muchon, and I yeah, yeah of course
apologies for not kind ofsurfing the surface in this in
advance, because these kind ofthoughts develop in my head as I
go along.
I kind of want to take us tothe current day if I can, and
(40:23):
this might be quite difficult.
So apologies if it is, but Ithink I need to do it.
Yeah, yeah.
So my first exposure to thinkingseriously about race and racism
was probably in the 80s withthe national front and being on
marches against the nationalfront and those kinds of things.
And it was fairly easy to spotan aggressive racist back in
those days.
They didn't have a lot of hair,they wore very tight jeans,
(40:46):
they didn't meet their boots.
So I know that's a grossgeneralization and you know I
had lots of skinhead friends whowere the nicest people you
could ever wish to meet.
But generally when you went onthese marches it was kind of
obvious who was who and then itfelt like we had dealt with it.
It felt, you know, we, we wentthrough the 90s and I know it's
never been a panacea, I knowit's never been perfect, I know
(41:06):
that from the experiences of thestaff here I've spoken to, but
it felt like that that kind ofreal polarized racism had gone,
but it feels like we're backthere.
How, how?
How do you guys feel aboutwhere we are now?
Can I ask that?
Is that fair?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely nikkei, would you
like to go first?
How do I?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
feel, to be honest, I'm not surprised because I kind
of think that we haven't reallydealt with the root causes of
it comes out from time to timebecause it's always there in the
background.
I think the assumption thatracism is kind of just covert
(41:43):
now and it's not overt is it'snot the right assumption,
because if people are given theopportunity, as we saw during
the racial riots, then they willactually show what they
actually think.
So I think this is a problemthat is not going to just
disappear until we face it headon, we understand why people
(42:04):
feel that particular way, weeducate them about or we give
them the opportunity.
I know now there's the age ofthe internet, so people should
educate themselves.
And I I often say to people go,I'm not going to educate you,
you go, educate yourself.
But at the primary level we needto explain to people what this
actually, because I think partof the issue is that people
(42:26):
think that anyone that's here isinvading on their space and so
on and so forth, withoutactually understanding the
history.
So again it's going back tothat history conversation as to
why people are here, why we havethe society we have today, what
contributions we are making asa community and so that people
understand that you know this is, this is how it is and we've
(42:48):
all got to live together and geton, but until we agree,
obviously it was.
Was it that there was a reportabout the no systemic racism by
the government a few years ago?
so that's still playing in thebackground, that people have
kind of validated their viewsthat there's no system, systemic
racism, and so these thingscome out from time to time and I
(43:11):
don't know what the answer is.
But I know that there is a lackof understanding of for many
people as to why we are here Icompletely, completely agree
with that, with everything yousaid.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
I think this is not just specific to Black people.
I think this is all visibleminority ethnicities.
I think the UK has a problemwith inequality, always has done
, and I hope that it doesn'talways in future.
(43:43):
But when people feel that cause, let's be real.
The past 20 years have thingsgot better for bottom 50% of
earners in the UK?
No way going to food banks hasbecome normal.
People are wondering what did Ido to deserve this or what?
(44:06):
What's been going on Like um?
And then they are politiciansstart pointing the finger.
People, you know, small boats,people coming, you know, um, the
first generation, uh,immigrants.
Second generation immigrantsand uh and the rest of it.
But these are systemic issues.
They're not the I'd say.
(44:26):
The existence of people fromminority ethnic backgrounds in
the UK is a product of thesystem which isn't functioning,
and the reason we're here in thefirst, you know.
For me, I think the level, thestandard of living in the UK was
(44:46):
only sustainable as being sohigh in general because of the
contributions from the colonies,because of this exploitation.
So when you cut the bloodflowing into the heart of the
system, something starts toshrivel in the middle and when
that starts happening, peoplewho have lived in the middle
(45:10):
that's their world they seethings deteriorating and then
suddenly, people moving there,they start blaming the people
who are moving there, withoutunderstanding that the people
are moving there because theplaces where they come from were
destroyed by that extraction insome ways.
Um, so I think like to answeryour question, lee, like what is
(45:31):
you know why?
Why are we here?
Or like what do I feel aboutthings now?
I think I think we've still gota long way to go before we can
have these open conversations,uh, about you know, I?
I think part of the issue isscapegoating.
Uh, this is, yeah, it's beengoing on for a long, long time
(45:51):
you don't see that anywhere moreobvious than in politics, do
you?
Speaker 4 (45:55):
oh gosh, yeah, and I don't want to get particularly
political, and this is a.
This is a sort of anon-political statement, in that
it applies to the left and theright.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know youcan't have practical, pragmatic,
sensible conversations aboutissues that we all want to talk
about, um, because they concernpeople, without immediately
swinging to the far ends of eachside of the spectrum and you,
(46:19):
you, you lose, you lose theconversation and you lose the
potential powerful outcomesbecause it gets polarised into
politics.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
I think yeah absolutely, 100%, yeah,
definitely.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
I mean, we're probably close to the end of the
podcast and that's not a verynice sort of sobering place.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
How was thinking of that?
Speaker 4 (46:38):
A nice way of like I've got.
So you probably don't know this, but Nikkei will remember it
from last time.
We always do sort of like aslightly tangential closing
question which I've got, butguillem's not spoken for a
little while.
So just before I do that, isthere anything else?
Sort of upbeat andlight-hearted, you want us?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
to end on guillem no, I'm simply to say that seeper
needs to run an event next yearwe do, we definitely do, yeah,
much like we do with a lot ofthe edi stuff.
Speaker 4 (47:00):
we always to IP Inclusive to be the lead on this
, and I think probably we needto start to take some of this on
ourselves and sort of havethese conversations.
So, josh, I might be comingback to you this time.
Well earlier than this timenext year, obviously because it
would be too late.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Guest lecturer.
That's a good story, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (47:19):
Yeah, could we just do something kind of through the
lens of the French Revolution?
It would be amazing.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think people would find itgenuinely interesting.
I think they would.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
No, I think they would you get the invention in
there, don't you?
Because you get the inventionof the guillotine, and you know
the guillotine was invented tomake the death penalty less
severe.
Believe it or not, the wholepurpose for its invention was to
stop people having their headschopped off with axes, which was
seen as too barbaric.
So even in the invention of theguillotine, there was sort of
(47:50):
like a bit of wokeness going on,that's fantastic.
There's so much we could do.
Oh, thank you both so much forcoming on, but we do have our
closer.
So, josh, what happens?
Is, I ask Willem, a reallywitty, clever closer?
that's kind of loosely connectedto something we've talked about
yeah, yeah you two then get thechance to answer and then he'll
unknown to me, he will throw itback at me and I'll already
(48:10):
have an answer prepared.
Tricks of the podcast, so good.
We were talking about kind ofresearch and family trees that
early and I was thinking whatkind of interesting angle could
I get on that that wouldn't betoo uncomfortable to go to.
So if you were researching yourfamily tree, is there a person
in history who would you wouldreally love to find in it?
(48:32):
So who, who would you like tofind as a distant relative?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
that is a jolly good question and I'm going to say,
beethoven, oh, what?
Oh, is this just what were youlooking?
Is this just what were youlooking for?
Speaker 4 (48:45):
I didn't know what you were looking for, were you
going to come to, Was he a greatbass player.
I um.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
No, I'm just.
I love music and I just wouldlove to find out that I was a.
In fact, I'm going to say I am,from now on, just find out.
No one can disprove it.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
There.
Just prove it.
There's only from Beethoven.
There we go.
So good, go there, josh.
That's a really, reallydifficult question to come out
with.
I mean, I remember watching umwho do you think you are?
And it was with Danny Dyer andhe found out he was related to
Henry VIII.
Um, and so I thought that wouldbe.
That would be really cool.
Um, that would be interesting.
I'm also reading the the WolfHall trilogy at the moment.
I'm just on the last book.
So Henry VIII has been on mymind recently.
(49:27):
Not saying he's a great guy,obviously, the history of his
wives and the rest of it.
But you know, when I thinkunexpected person in your family
tree, I think Henry VIII.
That's just what came to mind.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
It's for a club conversation.
That's what you need, isn't it?
It's for a pub conversation.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
That's what you need isn't it?
Yeah, yes, I'm sure he is.
No, actually he wasn't veryprodigious when it came to
output, was he?
So he might not appear in thatmany people's family trees.
That's true.
Oh yeah, very true.
Speaker 5 (49:52):
Let me say he actually was but illegitimate.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Illegitimate.
Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
The various fits is through through history.
Yeah, nika, you've, you've donea lot of.
You're gonna have people,aren't you?
You're gonna fail?
No, so for me it's two people.
There's two people.
Can I'm allowed to have two?
Yeah, of course you are.
Yeah, okay.
So the first one is um, awarrior queen in um northern
nigeria.
Uh called queen amina, and shereigned in 15, around 1576 to
about 1610, and at a time whenit was every what war is
(50:29):
definitely still today maledominated and she made so many
conquests and she captured somany lands and did so many
amazing things.
So I often see myself throughher like, uh, you know it,
wouldn't it be nice to have somesort of link to that sort of
heritage of a strong um, a womanthat did so many amazing things
(50:49):
and built so many amazingcities?
Um.
And then the second person is Iwas watching Netflix and there
was uh people have heard ofobviously most people have heard
of Afrobeats today and they'vehad of.
They've heard of aqua beats,which is a fella nicole acqua
kitty who started it, but Iwould love to have been his mom,
(51:11):
who was actually the first um.
She was born into a family whereher dad had said uh had refused
to accept that a woman's placewasn't in education and she'd
actually uh studied uh to becomea teacher.
She'd come to the uk, come backto nigeria, and had uh decided
to help the local women to tomake a difference, and there's a
(51:34):
whole, there's a netflix movieon her, so if you're interested
you might want to have a look.
And she kind of you know theywere so much uh um, women, the
market women were kind of beingtaxed by the government and you
know there was just so muchpolitics around.
It was also linked to thebritish uh rule and the
(51:54):
requirements for taxes and shewas able to uh dethrone the king
and because they were kind ofbeing oppressive to the women.
So again, that might be acloser.
I've looked so far.
I haven't found them in myfamily tree.
I wouldn't be nice to findsomeone like that in the family
tree somewhere.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
There's no point asking me because I can't beat
any of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Leave something up your sleeve, come on, what is it
?
Well, so.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
I'm going gonna have two, if that's okay.
So the first one is my nan.
My mad welsh dan always used totell me and I don't know why,
because he isn't welsh that wewere related to george stevenson
, sort of that sort of engineer,kind of builder of the rocket
and all those kinds of things.
I've not been able to find anytrace of that whatsoever in in
(52:46):
my research, but I have no ideawhere she would have got the
story from otherwise it's.
That's that's got to be a storythat's come through the family
somewhere yeah I've not beenable to determine that it's true
, but nor have I been able todetermine that it's that it's
not true, so I would love tofind that it was true, because
that would be great,particularly from an ip
perspective, wouldn't it?
The other one, though, uh, andthis is so.
My interest in history comesfrom growing up in portsmouth
(53:09):
and portsmouth being an earlyanglo-saxon settlement and kind
of all the place names beenaround that, so I have a.
My first interest in historywas the dark ages, kind of like
the post roman, pre-normanperiod, which we know nothing
about.
There's not written about much,apart from kind of one or two
writers, so I would like to findthe venerable bead as one of my
(53:33):
descendants I'll make him afterme People who came before me.
Speaker 5 (53:35):
Ancestors, ancestors, that's the word I'm looking for
.
Yeah, yeah.
Antecedent.
Speaker 4 (53:40):
My brain's gone because even getting to that
point was too taxing for me.
Yeah, my brain's gone becauseeven getting to that point was
too taxing for me.
Yeah, the venerable bead 700,730, something like that.
So, yeah, would have knownenough about the dark ages to
fill in all the bits I'm missing.
Yeah, oh, thank you both somuch for coming on.
It's been a yeah.
I could have just kept goingforever.
This has been an absolutedelight.
Guillem, I will see you on thenext one, but before we go, we
(54:02):
just need to remind anyone who'slistening to this, who's been
interested in it and whywouldn't you be?
Because it's been amazing.
Just leave us a little reviewand then other people will find
the podcast and we'll get abigger audience, which is which
is what we want to do, um, sothanks, bye now, lovely yeah,
see you thank you, we'll see younext time.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
Hey Gwilym.
Two podcasts in a row, oneafter the other.
This is quite cool.
Two podcasts in a pod.
Two podcasts in a pod.
Have you done anything excitingsince yesterday?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I think about four hours between them or something.
So no, no, no, no, I didn't.
I can absolutely say no, Ididn't do anything.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
Something exciting has happened in the world of
SEPA since we recorded yesterdayand these will actually go out
out of sequence, so this podcastwill go out before the one we
recorded yesterday, becausethat's how things work in the
world of podcasting.
We've launched the election forSIPA president for 2026.
How exciting is that?
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It is Well, it's not that often contested, was it
quite a few years?
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yes, it's been 10 years since we last had an
election for CEPA president, sowe don't do it very often but,
as I keep saying, I think it'sgood, it's healthy, to have an
election.
I think you know CEPA's interms of the work that it does
for its members.
We've done all sorts of amazingthings in the last few years
CPTPP.
We've withstood a pandemic,we've navigated Brexit, we've
helped our members through thelaunch of the UPC, so we're
doing some some really, reallybig stuff at the moment.
(01:24):
So I think it's quite nice thatthe members get the opportunity
to have a little think aboutwho their next president will be
and have a say in that.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I think it's nice that people are fighting to get
the job.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
That's also kind of a new thing.
When are you going to do it, bythe way?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's a democratic process.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I don't know.
It's a democratic process.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
I don't know.
It's up to the voters, isn't it?
Oh no, when are you going tostand?
I'm going to stand.
I think I've got a couple ofyears in me yet of actually, you
know, learning the ropes Stilllearning the ropes.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
If you don't become president before I retire as
chief executive, I will feeldeprived and cheated.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It's up to the voters Lee.
It's up to the voters Lee.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
It's up to the voters .
So crack a podcast.
Today we're here with twoguests because we're looking at
Black History Month, which iswhy the timing of this one is
important.
It's why it'll go out early inthe series, so that we time it
with Black History Month, andshould we get our guests on,
would that be a good place tostart.
Let's yeah, josh, do you wantto go first?
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Yeah, of course.
Hey, great, great to see youguys.
Uh, so my name is josh mclennan.
I'm a european patent attorneyabout to take my uk exams in
less than a week, so busycramming.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, um.
And yeah, so I work in norway,um, for a firm called honza
patent bureau.
I'm currently based in.
Yeah, I've been in theprofession for five years.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The Norway move is a fairly recent one, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (02:46):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So I used to actually work withGryllum, which is fantastic.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
I'm understanding that you would run away to
Norway.
That makes absolute sense.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
I moved about, yeah, about a year and a half ago now.
I moved first to Stavanger,which I don't know if you've.
I'd never heard of Stavangerbefore I decided to move there.
Um, and it is a kind of it's arelatively small city, it's like
140,000 on the west coast ofNorway.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
So, yeah, just ready for a bit of a change and, yeah,
I was there for about a yearbefore moving across to Oslo and
there's um, there's, there'sstarting starting to be quite a
community of UK patent attorneysin kind of Nordic countries and
we're very excited becausewe've got our first Nordic
regional meeting in a few weekstime.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited, I think, that it took
me a while to figure out whatthe difference was between
Nordic and Scandinavian.
Oh, can you explain it?
Because I'm using I think I can, I think I can.
So Nordic includes Denmark,norway, sweden, finland, also
(03:54):
Iceland and the Faroe Islands,whereas Scandinavia is just
Sweden, denmark and Norway.
Ah, got it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Okay, so I think I'm using the term correctly, then
yes, yeah yeah, we went for asbroad as possible.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
That's hence the Nordic yeah, so really excited.
That's going to be in Oslo inabout a month now, so yeah,
should be good fun.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Lovely to have you on the podcast and also we've got
a returner to the podcast, soobviously we didn't put her off
too much last time.
Nikkei, welcome back to thepodcast, remind us who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So my name is Nikkei.
I am a technical director at acompany called WSP, which is an
engineering consultancy where Ilead a team of
telecommunications engineers,and I am also chair and
co-founder of the Associationfor Black and Minority Ethnic
Engineers UK, and I wear manyother hats which I won't talk
(04:48):
about just now.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
Thank you.
Thank you and welcome back tothe podcast.
Have you done anything excitingsince the last time you were on
?
I did see that you werepromoting on LinkedIn, so big up
to you for that.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yes, yeah, I don't think I've done anything
exciting.
Yes, yes, yeah, I don't thinkI've done anything exciting.
I've just done what I well,what I've always done, which is
just carry on trying to make itand I know this sounds a bit but
make a change and make adifference in the world of
(05:20):
engineering and just showcasethat you know there's not just
me.
I think one thing that we'vedone is we had our big annual
conference in April at the KiwiCentre and that was just an
amazing, amazing event.
We had around 600, 700 engineersin that space and you know,
most people come to those eventsand think, well, I've never
seen so many diverse people.
(05:40):
We had people from allbackgrounds, that people at
different levels, soprofessionals, students, uh, you
know people that retired evenum in that space.
So yeah, that's.
I guess that's one of the mostexciting things I've done since,
uh, the last time we spoke, oh,wow, welcome back.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
So, william, um not to put you on the spot, like
we've not actually said much yet, where, where do?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
you think we should start?
I think we should start withthe history of Black History
Month.
So how did Black History Monthitself begin, and then we can
talk about Black History Month.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
Fantastic.
Yeah, I actually wrote anarticle about this a few years
ago, but I'm literally trying toscrabble through my memory bank
.
But I seem to remember it beganin 1960s, 1980s, maybe, nikkei,
maybe you can help me out hereand I'll have to check it out
(06:32):
myself.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I think it's 80s.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
I don't think it's the 60s yeah yeah, and initially
, I think an important thing tomention is that initially black
also covered people from otherminority ethnic backgrounds, um,
so mainly people from visibleminority ethnic backgrounds, and
over time it's kind of become,uh, people of kind of african
heritage.
But it's important to saybecause still many people from
(06:56):
non, with non-african heritage,still celebrate black history
month and it's important to saythat that's also valid what do
you think the impetus was forkind of starting off the whole
movement?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well it was about, as I understand it, it was about
celebrating the.
I think it was to do with theabolition of slavery and it was
about kind of celebrating thatrenewal and it was more of a
Caribbean kind of celebrationwithin the UK.
It was all about that, but itwas started off by someone from
(07:31):
I think I think I'm not 100%,but I think it was started by
someone from Ghana that come tothe UK and had decided that this
was a thing.
When you asked about BlackHistory Month, I was thinking I
don't actually know when BlackHistory Month starts in America
and how long it's been, becauseit's um, I think I think they
were before the UK Black HistoryMonth.
(07:52):
They celebrate their BlackHistory Month in February, for
example so I think they weredoing it before the UK even
started.
Now I need to find out about uhhow and why they did um start.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
But yeah, that's uh that's it it's a bit meta asking
about the history of blackhistory month, so sorry I heard
about.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I mean, someone talked about it.
Um, I attended somethingrecently and someone talked
about it.
That's the only reason why Iknow.
That's the only reason why Iknow anything about it.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Otherwise, rather than the history, can we talk
about the importance why?
Why is it important, did I say?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
or do you?
Yeah, I just kind of feel likeI was talking so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
So I I think black history month is important
because it just keeps racialissues on the agenda.
Of course, for me, blackhistory is not just confined to
one month.
The black history is my life.
So I think it's important tohave this kind of beacon every
(08:59):
single year where people arereminded of our existence
because still in some industries, still in some spaces, there
are not many of us.
I think it's changing.
I think things have definitelyimproved over the past 20 years
to some extent, but definitelyfrom when my parents were
younger, things have radicallyimproved.
(09:20):
But I think it's stillimportant because we've still
got so far to go, still got somuch police violence against
people with African heritage inthe UK and that until that goes
away and until things are trulyequal, I think we'll still
(09:40):
continue to need Black HistoryMonth.
But I look forward to the daywhen we no longer need it.
But I think it will continuefor the rest of my life at least
.
I don't know what you guysthink yeah, no, I have to agree.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I think black history month is every everybody's
history number one.
Black history should becelebrated as part of uk history
, I think.
I think I think it's importantbecause, as josh was saying, you
know there are stillstereotypes of what it means to
be black.
I did a talk yesterday talkingabout why we started AFBE and
how it was linked to primarily,the stereotype around the prime
(10:14):
minister at the time saying thatblack culture was responsible
for knife crime in London in2007.
So it's really important that wecontinue to share our stories
and I really like the theme thisyear around reclaiming
narratives because I think it'sabout us taking control and
telling our own stories andshowing the power that we
(10:35):
possess to make a difference andto make change happen.
You still go online and youknow I'm often not looking for
trouble, but many times I stillgo online and I find people
saying black people didn fortrouble, but many times I still
go online and I find peoplesaying black people didn't
invent anything, and so on andso forth, and so months like
this opportunities to showcasethe rich heritage we have, the
things that we have done, and togive people a moment of just
(10:58):
appreciation of not everythingyou hear on the media and that
is negative is actually true.
So yeah, for for me it's reallyimportant and, as Josh said, I
think we will continue tocelebrate Black History Month
until we all realise it is partof all our histories.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I think I also want to add on top of that what you
said about reclaiming narrativesis so important, I think, up
until kind of internet andpeople being able in some ways
to distribute their owninformation and express
themselves and other peoplebeing able to hear it.
If you go back 100 years ago,it's much more difficult for
(11:33):
black voices to be heard, and sothe narratives which I kind of
I learned in school are ones inwhich there is a kind of long
history of printed media, andthat's not necessarily black.
You know, there is some blackhistory, but what black history
(11:55):
is spoken of in in these kind ofold books and encyclopedias and
the rest of it is a very, veryparticular view.
So I think we're still kind ofat the beginning, in some ways,
of uh, being able to reclaim thenarrative in a way in which, um
, yeah, we'll hopefully bebeneficial for, um, like the
next generation I mean it isreally interesting.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I studied history up to a level.
It's pretty unusual for apattern of turning.
Actually I don't remember why,but obviously it's all the
history books are written by thepeople who write the history
books, and so you therefore,what you learn, what the history
learns, dictated by the peoplewho write the books and what
they write about.
So, for example, I did studyquite a lot of history about
kind of Africa, but it was allfrom complete white colonial
(12:38):
perspective of you know who hada war with who in Africa, rather
than anything about the actualhistory there.
And so, yeah, I can, I can tellyou.
So I didn't learn anythingabout actual black history at
any point during it, becausethat's not what it was in the
books and so, as you say, thenarrative kind of the narrative
controls what you learn.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
So it doesn't, it doesn't need shifting, yes yeah,
yeah um, the other day we had,uh, we have a.
So as part of AFB we have ablack history month quiz and I
usually challenge people to, andwe had the the black history
month quiz amongst the boardmembers and you know even things
that people you'd assume peoplewould know um sometimes and
(13:19):
they don't know because that'snot what they've been exposed to
, that's not what they've beenexposed to, that's not what
they've been taught at schooland so they don't know.
For example, we had one aboutthe particular technique that we
use within engineering, calledthe court process, which was
actually a process that was by aguy called I think it's Henry
(13:40):
Court I'm not 100%, but that'sC-O-R-T, that's his name and he
stole this technique ofprocessing iron from the
Caribbean.
So he'd stolen it from Jamaicaand what he did was that these
(14:00):
slaves in Jamaica at the timehad brought this technique.
They come from West Africa andhad brought this technique and
they were using it to processthe iron.
And what he'd done is that he'dstolen that process, come to the
UK, presented it as his own,patented it as his own, and it's
(14:20):
still called the process upuntil today and up until I think
it was two years ago there wasan article in the Guardian that
talks about what he actually did, which was still that process
burn down the factory in Jamaicaso that there was no record of
what he had done, and presentedit as his own.
(14:40):
So you know, you will find outabout those sort of things as
his own.
So you know, you'll find outabout those sort of things.
One, it gives us a sense ofpride in what those people had
to go through and what they hadto.
You know what they kind ofcreated.
They created all theseprocesses and these things and
no one actually knew about it,and so I'm glad that there's
(15:08):
Black History.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
Month because we can share those stories, stories, uh
, particularly inventions forfrom people of black heritage.
So I have a small experience ofthis which, um, I don't know,
I've probably not even shared itwith william.
So before are you getting a bitof echo from me?
Because I could hear a bit ofecho from me now?
Okay, cool.
Yeah, so I used to be theregional secretary, district
secretary of the workerseducational association thames
and solent, which is the thamesand solent district of the wea,
which is, uh, has always beenreally into community outreach,
(15:32):
education and reaching perhapsgroups of people who are
disadvantaged in some way.
So we had lots of centres.
We had centres in southampton,um, particularly in reading and
and I'm talking now late 90sthrough to the early 2000s, and
we would celebrate Black HistoryMonth.
We would particularly celebrateit in our centres, and for me
(15:53):
as a white person and for otherwhite people who were able to go
along to these events, it wasjust an amazing learning
opportunity and not just aboutthe history as you were talking
about it there Culture, food,art, entertainment, all of those
kinds of things that Iotherwise wouldn't have had a
perspective on.
So I think I would argue it'sas important for people from
(16:14):
outside of those backgrounds tobe aware of it and be involved,
as it is for people within themto celebrate, because for me
it's just a fantastic learningopportunity.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Yeah, I also want to actually add on top of that, and
so my dad's dad is from Jamaica.
My dad's mom is from theSeychelles.
My dad was born in Bradford, inthe north of the UK, but a lot
of this kind of black history,black culture, was not passed
down to him, so what that meantis that my mom is white, grew up
(16:44):
working class in Bradford aswell, mainly Irish ancestry, and
so I kind of, I guess, grew upin a bit of a black cultural
vacuum.
I, you know I'm learning somuch stuff about kind of African
history, caribbean history, um,kind of african history,
(17:07):
caribbean history, even likeblack british history, things
which were not part of my kindof normal learning experiences
growing up.
So, uh, lee, as much exactly asfor you, you know you're
learning things from the verybeginning as well.
Like I, I'm also in that camp.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
I think it's all of us actually.
I think that's the importanceand beauty of Black History
Month actually, because I thinkit helps us reflect on those and
actually learn.
Because, for example, I onlyfound out on QI that there was a
state in Nigeria that hadstreetlights before most parts
(17:43):
of the world.
I found out on QI.
I was quite embarrassed this is, this is, this is, and you know
, um, you know, I, I kind ofpride myself in I, I learn about
things, I know about things, Iread about things, but I, I
didn't know.
So I think we're all on thatjourney of learning and
(18:04):
regardless of how much you wereexposed to your history and your
background and stuff, I'm nowkind of trying to do a family
tree back, you know, to find outwho my ancestors were and you
know, find out.
Actually, some of my ancestorsended up in Haiti and so on.
Uh and uh, and I'm Nigerian, so, you know, you kind of think,
(18:27):
okay, this is interesting, um,so I think the reason why I'm
saying this is I think I thinkwe're all kind of all on that
journey of learning and findingout that we are.
We are one, we're all connectedand, two, finding out the rich
heritage where we've come from.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Um, so, yeah, I think it's a really important thing
how is it that you're lookingout for your, your family tree?
Have the records beendigitalized, like in in nigeria,
or is it more a case of youknow, calling someone to go and
they?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
go to a particular parish, yeah, okay, people to
ask questions, uh, pesteringcousins, uncles, aunties,
pestering people, just because Iwant to make this tree and kind
of understand what my heritageactually is, because it's an
interest of mine, because youwatch, you watch all these
programs and you know all thesecelebrities go on these programs
(19:21):
and they you know, I feel a bitenvious, and of them when I you
know, when they say you know, Iknow, you know links to this
and that, and I'm like I have noidea.
Actually, for me it's kind ofpiece, trying to piece together
as much as I can because youknow, as you know, um in in in
Africa in general, in generalthey didn't document in terms of
(19:43):
paper.
They told stories and storieswere passed down from generation
to generation and if you'relucky, if you have someone that
is really elderly within thefamily, then they probably know
way back when who was connectedto who and who married who and
whose child who is.
So, yeah, just trying to pieceit together.
It's uh, it's been interesting.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
So far I'm not there yet, but yeah, what's the
reaction from your family whenyou you phone up and say I want
to start hearing about youraunties and uncles and they're
saying what are you doing, orthey get really interested and
get engaged.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
I mean I think I've got a, a family that's already
really engaged, so everyone'slike, oh really, oh, that's
interesting, good, but it's allthat's interesting.
Good luck, yeah, let us knowwhen you have it.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
I went through a similar process, actually during
during COVID.
Um, I started to try to piecetogether my family tree, but
often basically only a fewrecords have been digitalized in
jamaica and most of it is justcalling people and go, then
going to particular churches andlooking at the church records
(20:56):
to see who was married there andso on and so forth.
So after I don't know, it wasmuch easier to kind of go down
my mom's side of the familybecause things were generally
documented and all scanned inand digitalised, which was
really, really helpful.
But it's a bucket list thing ofmine to generate a family tree
(21:17):
of both sides of my family andfigure out what's going on there
my only reference point, and Ican only imagine how difficult
it is, because I did mine duringlockdown, I think, oh you did.
Yeah, oh, wow I mean.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
I mean, as you'll guess from the name my, my
background is welsh and that wasthat was tough enough, but not
because records were difficult,just because there was so much
inbreeding, I think.
And I think I think I'll leaveit there.
Okay, I've got a great story totell about it.
I'll tell next time we're inthe pub.
I'll tell you about thedifficult lineage that I
discovered, ok.
Speaker 5 (21:49):
Is it more of a family circle than a family tree
?
It's a family circle.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, also not for too much detail, but I find that
about my great grandmother onone side and she had quite a
lively life.
A lot of kids.
Anyway, another story, story,another day um I was actually
going to go back in the case.
That's okay.
You mentioned about the kind of, I think, in the ip, what we
call the traditional knowledge.
(22:16):
It's quite a nice link actually, but you've got these kind of
technologies or often it'smedicines and things from areas,
and they've been appropriatedand taken away and I think one
of the benefits I'm getting thefeel of raising this awareness
is that action is now beingtaken.
I mean, you can't get the steelprocess back, kind of thing,
(22:36):
but certainly on the medicalside they're calling it
biopiracy now, which I think isa good, honest name for what can
go on.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
I think you know.
To be honest, it just it hurtsall of us not to know.
I think the idea that someonetakes someone else's invention
or creation and calls it theirown hurts all of us, because it
takes away from the heritage ofone person and makes the other
(23:05):
person, gives the other personan assumption that this is their
heritage and when it all comescrashing down, when people
realize actually, um, it'sdifficult to take um because
you've all your life you'veyou've thought of this as part
of what you did and what youcreated, and to find out it's
not actually the case.
It's.
It's damaging to everybody andI think I'm glad that people are
(23:28):
looking at that now and I'mglad that these things are being
exposed for what they are,which is, as you say, piracy.
This is what they really are?
Speaker 4 (23:36):
I thought you were just about to speak.
I'm sorry, I didn't want to cutbreathing.
I was mouth breathing, sorrywe've talked about your
experiences and things that, um,that you do generally.
What sort of things happenduring black history month?
What, what, the?
What sort of the big ticketstuff that people should be
looking out for?
Speaker 5 (23:52):
I.
I think in-person events numberone, um, just so you can go and
connect with other people whoare interested.
You meet allies, you meet alsoother people with african
heritage as well.
Last weekend here in Oslo, Iwent to a lecture by a British
(24:15):
professor about the history ofpan-Africanism.
That was just such aninteresting event because, be
frank, like being someone who'snot white, living in a
predominantly white country,living in Western Europe, you're
always to some extent going tobe a minority.
(24:36):
So going to that event and youknow, were black people a
majority?
No, absolutely not.
Black people are about 20% ofthe event.
But still, to see so manyallies and it just makes you
feel more comfortable and likepeople care, um, so it's, it's
good to also, yeah, connect withallies as well as um, as well
(24:58):
as like minority ethnic people.
Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I think.
I think quite the same.
I think in-person events are soimportant.
But also this year we decidedas AFBE that we were going to do
a weekly series on differenttopics.
So we had our first one onintersectionality, the second
one on allyship, the onetomorrow is actually on the
ethics of ethnic diversity,which talks about some people
(25:25):
like to call it the history ofracism because it talks about,
it makes us realise that racismhasn't been around forever.
It's only about 300 years oldand it only started based on
certain kind of situations thatled to it.
And then I'm doing the last oneon the 30th of October.
Then I'm doing the last one onthe 30th of October, on
(25:48):
understanding the barriers ofbarriers for people from diverse
backgrounds within engineering,barriers for recruitment,
retention and progression.
So we this is the first yearwe've actually decided to do
something definite Black HistoryMonth, because, as an
organisation that representsblack and minority ethnic
engineers, that represents blackand minority ethnic engineers,
(26:09):
we specifically were quitecareful not to say, you know,
have everything within blackhistory month, so that people
thought, okay, that's the monthto engage with this organization
and then we don't have to worryfor the rest of the year.
So so, yeah, so we, we do that.
But we also had a veryinteresting um round table on
allyship.
Um, because, you know, um, whengeorge floyd happened, you know
, everyone was talking there'sblack squares and so on and
(26:30):
everywhere and then, uh, therace riots happened and people
came out and showed amazingsupport to say, you know, we
don't want this.
And then after that everyone'skind of forgets about it until
the next thing happens and theneveryone is, you know, raising
awareness.
So we had this roundtablearound how we can keep the
momentum kind of going aroundthese topics.
And they don't.
(26:51):
They're not just topics,they're parts of things that we
do on a day-to-day basis.
So an ally you know, oli,co-founder of AFI, and also my
brother often says that allyshipis a battle scar, not a badge
often says that allyship is abattle scar, not a badge.
So understanding that and justkeeping it kind of that
conversation going allthroughout the year is really
important.
(27:11):
But, yeah, those events,there's also actually an event
we're taking Black History Monthinto November, so on the 1st of
November, because, yeah, we arehaving a Reclaiming Narr
narratives, our showcase.
So it's everything from alecture to panel to party,
because, yeah, that is also partof our culture, um, that we're
(27:34):
hosting.
So, yeah, that's obviously, uh,a time to meet in person a lot
of people and just have thoseconversations as well.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I want to pick up, if I can, on allyship.
You both mentioned it, leementioned it as well.
Uh, he's one of the mosthelpful words I've come across
as somebody you know who's notfrom a particularly well, that's
not for a diverse background atall.
I'm from a nice, comfortable,privileged background where
everything's been really quiteeasy and I, I accept it and I'm
very lucky and I realized just Ibegin to realize just how lucky
(28:04):
I am through meetings like thisand discussions like this.
We're having a session onallyship, just kind of quickly
promoted, actually through IP,inclusive in November.
Um, check it out on the website, uh, where we're talking how to
be, how to be a good ally,because I think it's you know,
from my perspective is the bestway it's the best way I can
provide for not getting so.
I feel like I'm almostintruding sometimes.
(28:25):
I want to help, so quickguidance.
It's not a bad about the scar.
I like that.
What do we need to do?
What's what does good allyshiplook like?
Speaker 5 (28:33):
yeah, I, I think good allyship looks like emotional
intelligence, just being therefor people and just being
curious.
You know, I think everythingkind of stems from a genuine
feeling.
Yes, there will be times whenthings are awkward, but if you
feel awkward, you know, feelfree to just ask someone you
(28:53):
know, state how you feel, sayyou know I feel awkward around
this topic.
Is there anything you think Ishould be doing which I'm not,
or likewise, or, you know, justkeep the conversation flowing.
Don't feel like you have tokind of, uh, keep everything in
for fear of being exposed, asyou know, a non-genuine ally.
(29:14):
I think it comes across very,very clearly when, when someone
is genuinely engaged and justwants to help out another human
being.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
I think that um yeah, absolutely agree with what josh
has said, specifically aroundthe lack of comfort.
You know, allies um often areuncomfortable and that's okay.
I mean, uh, you know, andthat's okay, because I don't
think people say that enough,but that's okay, but it is
(29:43):
actually okay.
Um, there's a, there's anallyship continuum I don't know
if you've heard of it by a ladycalled jennifer brown.
It's called.
It's.
It's a kind of a, a chart of aprogress journey and obviously
you don't want to, you don'twant to mark yourself against it
, but it starts from apathy andgoes all the way to advocate.
So you start, an ally willstart from a place of you know
(30:05):
like okay, and then awareness,being aware of the issues, and
then becoming active and thenbecoming an advocate.
So it's a, it's a journey, andyou know we can all be allies as
well to other.
You know we all have some levelof privilege in a different
space, so we can all be allies.
But that alliance of continuumhas personally really helped me
(30:26):
to be able to sort of assessmyself against where I am on
that journey so regards tocertain things.
Um, within, for example, for me, within the engineering sector,
um, whilst we have a dominanceof men, and men represent over
kind of 84 percent of I meanengineering black men in
(30:49):
particular and black andminority men in particular you
don't see them at thoseleadership levels and I see how
the power play in meetings andso on and how I have actually an
advantage by being a female inthat environment and using my
tools within my allyship toolkitto advocate in those
(31:12):
environments is really important.
So, yeah, it's a.
It's a um.
I encourage you if you haven'theard of it before, I'm assuming
you have look it up.
It's a really good one to tostart looking at and mapping
where you are in certain thingsI think william's already doing
it.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
I think he might be thinking about this being
something we can weave into theallyship event we've got oh you.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So yes, I'm also going to pretend I've heard of
the allies I could.
I could see your little cogsgoing inside your obviously
you'll all know about the otherthing, so this is great for me,
thank you very much I.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
I just wanted to add as well, you know this, as
you're mentioning Nikkei on theAlashar continuum about what was
stage two Was that kind ofawareness, awareness.
Awareness, you know, if you'renot from a minority ethnic
background, you can't beexpected to have an intuitive
understanding of all the issuesfrom the get-go.
You know, gaining thisawareness requires, you know,
(32:09):
reading black produced media,whether that's like particular
books or black films, likethere's loads of like beautiful,
what fantastically directedafrican films from senegal, from
the 1960s.
There's all sorts's, all sortsof information out there, and
it's not that you need to readand watch absolutely everything,
(32:32):
just see what appeals to you.
What do you find interesting?
What's your easy way in?
To some extent, and also beingkind of critical about what it
is that you're digesting is, isit, you know, this person's from
a minority ethnic background,but they're from, they're
actually quite privileged in inother ways?
(32:53):
You know, are they all from theuk but from the minority ethnic
background?
Um, I think, just having a kindof making sure that what you're
digesting is as diverse aspossible, um, I think that can
also be useful for for gainingperspectives into um kind of
different people's experiences.
Uh, as a person from a minorityethnic background in the uk,
(33:15):
but also kind of or a non-whitebackground worldwide, because
white people are the minority inthe world.
You know that's something inwestern europe we forget it's.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
I mean, it's amazing when these, these sort of ideas
can pop up.
So I listen to podcasts rest ishistory, and at the moment it's
discussing the frenchrevolution, and the one I
listened to yesterday was aboutthe kind of the creation of the
guillotine, just so.
That's kind of that's thecontext.
And then in deep in thediscussion, the host is talking
about the, the rights of man,the rights to freedom and all
(33:47):
these kinds of things.
And then I learned that therewas a big movement during the
French Revolution to move awayfrom slavery, because that
obviously spoke against therights of man and instead to and
to do away, to abolish thedeath penalty and instead to to
use people who would otherwisebe subject to the death penalty
(34:08):
as, if you like, the replacementfor slave labour.
That conversation was happeningin the 1770s, 1780s.
I just found that fascinatingthat it was that deep-rooted in
history.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
You might find an interesting book.
It's a well-known book.
It's called the Black Jacobinsby CLR James, and it's all about
the Haitian revolution, whichis also occurring at the same
time, and that's very much aboutthe kind of interplay between
(34:40):
the Royalists and theRepublicans in France and how
they're backing different groupsin Haiti, which was a slave-led
rebellion which was ultimatelysuccessful.
But you might find thatinteresting because that links
very, very much to what you'resaying.
I think it's this very FrenchRevolution.
So many very, very interestingideas which seem so forward
(35:04):
thinking, but how many of themreally got implemented?
You know, it's just things like, um, I think, with the spring,
splitting the day into 10 hoursand having uh, 100 minutes uh in
each, in each hour, but ofcourse the the duration of the
minute is different to our, ourminute just absolutely bizarre
ideas, but it just shows um kindof uh, I guess, the creativity
(35:26):
on on their part I guess because, because I am such, I mean I've
, unlike guillermo, I didn'tstudy history at school, I
wasn't particularly turned on atschool.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
I left as early as I could, 15 to start working on a
building site, yeah, um.
So history is something thatcame late to me and I have an
inexhaustible capacity for it,and I find it extraordinary how
most of the conversations wehave now around all sorts of
issues race and others have justbeen played out through history
, over and over yes, yes, um,one thing I really like about
(35:57):
learning, particularly about umkind of yeah, 17th, 18th, 19th
century history, particularlywhen it comes to racism and
slavery.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
It's just how you know.
We look back and we think, oh,everyone was just comfortable
with slavery.
They just had no idea what wasgoing on and they just thought
black people were animals andyeah, it's just how it was.
Well, no, that's actually notthe case.
The majority of people probablydid not support slavery in any
way whatsoever.
It was only in the interest ofvery few industrialists who saw
(36:33):
a business opportunity, and thephilosophy was designed to match
that and to provide somejustification, so people didn't
feel so bad.
Speaker 4 (36:43):
Most people come to it through the lens of the
American Civil War, don't they?
And the kind of slavery andanti-slavery, good versus evil,
those kinds of things, and it'ssuch a narrow lens.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Yes, yeah, yeah.
So one thing which I found veryinteresting about that Black
Jacobins book is one of what CLRJames kind of argues throughout
.
I think pretty much the firstthird of the book is that
Britain's abolition of the slavetrade was not a sudden change
(37:23):
in conscience of its colonies inthe Caribbean.
So Haiti in particular, was aformer French colony called San
Domingo, and the conditionsthere were so bad that basically
once enslaved Africans weredelivered to Haiti, they often
(37:43):
didn't survive their fulllifetime.
They would die after.
I think the average expectancywas somewhere between five and
ten years, whereas theconditions in other British
colonies, such as Jamaica,allowed basically the slave
population there to becomeself-sufficient.
So the Britons decided thatthey didn't need the slave trade
(38:05):
anymore because their coloniesalready had the slaves.
So they abolished thetransatlantic slave trade rather
than slavery.
You know, and why would you dothat?
The reason is because Franceneeded the slave trade in order
to keep its colonies going.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
There's a whole podcast here, isn't there?
There is.
Speaker 5 (38:27):
It's absolutely so.
When I you know, even on kindof like left-leaning, like media
sites and very liberalcolumnists talking, you know,
praising Britain's abolition ofthe slave trade and the rest of
it, it's like you people don'tactually know the history.
The history is much moreinteresting than that, um it's.
(38:48):
It's not about good or bad,it's about you know what's what
actually happened I really likethat last statement.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
It's not about good or bad, it's about what really
happened and I think that'soften missed when people talk
about, uh, the history of, of.
I think that's often missed.
I don't know if you've heard ofthe is it Crania Americana?
It's a thing that it was calledscientific, the age of
(39:14):
scientific racism and how theyhad studied.
According to them, they hadstudied the black people's brain
and they had worked out thatthese people don't have the
capacity to revenge what hadhappened to them.
They hadn't.
They didn't have the capacityto take revenge on what had
happened to them.
(39:34):
So even the people that weresupporting the abolitionist
slavery that was one of theirarguments to say, actually, you
know, these people are not thatclever, they, they're not going
to come back and do anything.
So this is a good argument tokind of think.
Well, that was one of theirarguments.
(39:57):
You kind of think so.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
This is one of these podcasts where we could
literally go on forever.
I mean, I'm so fascinated bythe bowl of this that, yeah,
we'll probably have to doanother one, I think.
But good to know is that one ofmy jobs is timekeeper, and I'm
conscious that we're time's muchon, and I yeah, yeah of course
apologies for not kind ofsurfing the surface in this in
advance, because these kind ofthoughts develop in my head as I
go along.
I kind of want to take us tothe current day if I can, and
(40:23):
this might be quite difficult.
So apologies if it is, but Ithink I need to do it.
Yeah, yeah.
So my first exposure to thinkingseriously about race and racism
was probably in the 80s withthe national front and being on
marches against the nationalfront and those kinds of things.
And it was fairly easy to spotan aggressive racist back in
those days.
They didn't have a lot of hair,they wore very tight jeans,
(40:46):
they didn't meet their boots.
So I know that's a grossgeneralization and you know I
had lots of skinhead friends whowere the nicest people you
could ever wish to meet.
But generally when you went onthese marches it was kind of
obvious who was who and then itfelt like we had dealt with it.
It felt, you know, we, we wentthrough the 90s and I know it's
never been a panacea, I knowit's never been perfect, I know
(41:06):
that from the experiences of thestaff here I've spoken to, but
it felt like that that kind ofreal polarized racism had gone,
but it feels like we're backthere.
How, how?
How do you guys feel aboutwhere we are now?
Can I ask that?
Is that fair?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely nikkei, would you
like to go first?
How do I?
Speaker 1 (41:22):
feel, to be honest, I'm not surprised because I kind
of think that we haven't reallydealt with the root causes of
it comes out from time to timebecause it's always there in the
background.
I think the assumption thatracism is kind of just covert
(41:43):
now and it's not overt is it'snot the right assumption,
because if people are given theopportunity, as we saw during
the racial riots, then they willactually show what they
actually think.
So I think this is a problemthat is not going to just
disappear until we face it headon, we understand why people
(42:04):
feel that particular way, weeducate them about or we give
them the opportunity.
I know now there's the age ofthe internet, so people should
educate themselves.
And I I often say to people go,I'm not going to educate you,
you go, educate yourself.
But at the primary level we needto explain to people what this
actually, because I think partof the issue is that people
(42:26):
think that anyone that's here isinvading on their space and so
on and so forth, withoutactually understanding the
history.
So again it's going back tothat history conversation as to
why people are here, why we havethe society we have today, what
contributions we are making asa community and so that people
understand that you know this is, this is how it is and we've
(42:48):
all got to live together and geton, but until we agree,
obviously it was.
Was it that there was a reportabout the no systemic racism by
the government a few years ago?
so that's still playing in thebackground, that people have
kind of validated their viewsthat there's no system, systemic
racism, and so these thingscome out from time to time and I
(43:11):
don't know what the answer is.
But I know that there is a lackof understanding of for many
people as to why we are here Icompletely, completely agree
with that, with everything yousaid.
Speaker 5 (43:21):
I think this is not just specific to Black people.
I think this is all visibleminority ethnicities.
I think the UK has a problemwith inequality, always has done
, and I hope that it doesn'talways in future.
(43:43):
But when people feel that cause, let's be real.
The past 20 years have thingsgot better for bottom 50% of
earners in the UK?
No way going to food banks hasbecome normal.
People are wondering what did Ido to deserve this or what?
(44:06):
What's been going on Like um?
And then they are politiciansstart pointing the finger.
People, you know, small boats,people coming, you know, um, the
first generation, uh,immigrants.
Second generation immigrantsand uh and the rest of it.
But these are systemic issues.
They're not the I'd say.
(44:26):
The existence of people fromminority ethnic backgrounds in
the UK is a product of thesystem which isn't functioning,
and the reason we're here in thefirst, you know.
For me, I think the level, thestandard of living in the UK was
(44:46):
only sustainable as being sohigh in general because of the
contributions from the colonies,because of this exploitation.
So when you cut the bloodflowing into the heart of the
system, something starts toshrivel in the middle and when
that starts happening, peoplewho have lived in the middle
(45:10):
that's their world they seethings deteriorating and then
suddenly, people moving there,they start blaming the people
who are moving there, withoutunderstanding that the people
are moving there because theplaces where they come from were
destroyed by that extraction insome ways.
Um, so I think like to answeryour question, lee, like what is
(45:31):
you know why?
Why are we here?
Or like what do I feel aboutthings now?
I think I think we've still gota long way to go before we can
have these open conversations,uh, about you know, I?
I think part of the issue isscapegoating.
Uh, this is, yeah, it's beengoing on for a long, long time
(45:51):
you don't see that anywhere moreobvious than in politics, do
you?
Speaker 4 (45:55):
oh gosh, yeah, and I don't want to get particularly
political, and this is a.
This is a sort of anon-political statement, in that
it applies to the left and theright.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know youcan't have practical, pragmatic,
sensible conversations aboutissues that we all want to talk
about, um, because they concernpeople, without immediately
swinging to the far ends of eachside of the spectrum and you,
(46:19):
you, you lose, you lose theconversation and you lose the
potential powerful outcomesbecause it gets polarised into
politics.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
I think yeah absolutely, 100%, yeah,
definitely.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
I mean, we're probably close to the end of the
podcast and that's not a verynice sort of sobering place.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
How was thinking of that?
Speaker 4 (46:38):
A nice way of like I've got.
So you probably don't know this, but Nikkei will remember it
from last time.
We always do sort of like aslightly tangential closing
question which I've got, butguillem's not spoken for a
little while.
So just before I do that, isthere anything else?
Sort of upbeat andlight-hearted, you want us?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
to end on guillem no, I'm simply to say that seeper
needs to run an event next yearwe do, we definitely do, yeah,
much like we do with a lot ofthe edi stuff.
Speaker 4 (47:00):
we always to IP Inclusive to be the lead on this
, and I think probably we needto start to take some of this on
ourselves and sort of havethese conversations.
So, josh, I might be comingback to you this time.
Well earlier than this timenext year, obviously because it
would be too late.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Guest lecturer.
That's a good story, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (47:19):
Yeah, could we just do something kind of through the
lens of the French Revolution?
It would be amazing.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I think people would find itgenuinely interesting.
I think they would.
Speaker 4 (47:29):
No, I think they would you get the invention in
there, don't you?
Because you get the inventionof the guillotine, and you know
the guillotine was invented tomake the death penalty less
severe.
Believe it or not, the wholepurpose for its invention was to
stop people having their headschopped off with axes, which was
seen as too barbaric.
So even in the invention of theguillotine, there was sort of
(47:50):
like a bit of wokeness going on,that's fantastic.
There's so much we could do.
Oh, thank you both so much forcoming on, but we do have our
closer.
So, josh, what happens?
Is, I ask Willem, a reallywitty, clever closer?
that's kind of loosely connectedto something we've talked about
yeah, yeah you two then get thechance to answer and then he'll
unknown to me, he will throw itback at me and I'll already
(48:10):
have an answer prepared.
Tricks of the podcast, so good.
We were talking about kind ofresearch and family trees that
early and I was thinking whatkind of interesting angle could
I get on that that wouldn't betoo uncomfortable to go to.
So if you were researching yourfamily tree, is there a person
in history who would you wouldreally love to find in it?
(48:32):
So who, who would you like tofind as a distant relative?
Speaker 2 (48:36):
that is a jolly good question and I'm going to say,
beethoven, oh, what?
Oh, is this just what were youlooking?
Is this just what were youlooking for?
Speaker 4 (48:45):
I didn't know what you were looking for, were you
going to come to, Was he a greatbass player.
I um.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
No, I'm just.
I love music and I just wouldlove to find out that I was a.
In fact, I'm going to say I am,from now on, just find out.
No one can disprove it.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
There.
Just prove it.
There's only from Beethoven.
There we go.
So good, go there, josh.
That's a really, reallydifficult question to come out
with.
I mean, I remember watching umwho do you think you are?
And it was with Danny Dyer andhe found out he was related to
Henry VIII.
Um, and so I thought that wouldbe.
That would be really cool.
Um, that would be interesting.
I'm also reading the the WolfHall trilogy at the moment.
I'm just on the last book.
So Henry VIII has been on mymind recently.
(49:27):
Not saying he's a great guy,obviously, the history of his
wives and the rest of it.
But you know, when I thinkunexpected person in your family
tree, I think Henry VIII.
That's just what came to mind.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
It's for a club conversation.
That's what you need, isn't it?
It's for a pub conversation.
Speaker 4 (49:42):
That's what you need isn't it?
Yeah, yes, I'm sure he is.
No, actually he wasn't veryprodigious when it came to
output, was he?
So he might not appear in thatmany people's family trees.
That's true.
Oh yeah, very true.
Speaker 5 (49:52):
Let me say he actually was but illegitimate.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
Illegitimate.
Yeah, yeah, that's true, yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:09):
The various fits is through through history.
Yeah, nika, you've, you've donea lot of.
You're gonna have people,aren't you?
You're gonna fail?
No, so for me it's two people.
There's two people.
Can I'm allowed to have two?
Yeah, of course you are.
Yeah, okay.
So the first one is um, awarrior queen in um northern
nigeria.
Uh called queen amina, and shereigned in 15, around 1576 to
about 1610, and at a time whenit was every what war is
(50:29):
definitely still today maledominated and she made so many
conquests and she captured somany lands and did so many
amazing things.
So I often see myself throughher like, uh, you know it,
wouldn't it be nice to have somesort of link to that sort of
heritage of a strong um, a womanthat did so many amazing things
(50:49):
and built so many amazingcities?
Um.
And then the second person is Iwas watching Netflix and there
was uh people have heard ofobviously most people have heard
of Afrobeats today and they'vehad of.
They've heard of aqua beats,which is a fella nicole acqua
kitty who started it, but Iwould love to have been his mom,
(51:11):
who was actually the first um.
She was born into a family whereher dad had said uh had refused
to accept that a woman's placewasn't in education and she'd
actually uh studied uh to becomea teacher.
She'd come to the uk, come backto nigeria, and had uh decided
to help the local women to tomake a difference, and there's a
(51:34):
whole, there's a netflix movieon her, so if you're interested
you might want to have a look.
And she kind of you know theywere so much uh um, women, the
market women were kind of beingtaxed by the government and you
know there was just so muchpolitics around.
It was also linked to thebritish uh rule and the
(51:54):
requirements for taxes and shewas able to uh dethrone the king
and because they were kind ofbeing oppressive to the women.
So again, that might be acloser.
I've looked so far.
I haven't found them in myfamily tree.
I wouldn't be nice to findsomeone like that in the family
tree somewhere.
Speaker 4 (52:16):
There's no point asking me because I can't beat
any of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Leave something up your sleeve, come on, what is it
?
Well, so.
Speaker 4 (52:24):
I'm going gonna have two, if that's okay.
So the first one is my nan.
My mad welsh dan always used totell me and I don't know why,
because he isn't welsh that wewere related to george stevenson
, sort of that sort of engineer,kind of builder of the rocket
and all those kinds of things.
I've not been able to find anytrace of that whatsoever in in
(52:46):
my research, but I have no ideawhere she would have got the
story from otherwise it's.
That's that's got to be a storythat's come through the family
somewhere yeah I've not beenable to determine that it's true
, but nor have I been able todetermine that it's that it's
not true, so I would love tofind that it was true, because
that would be great,particularly from an ip
perspective, wouldn't it?
The other one, though, uh, andthis is so.
My interest in history comesfrom growing up in portsmouth
(53:09):
and portsmouth being an earlyanglo-saxon settlement and kind
of all the place names beenaround that, so I have a.
My first interest in historywas the dark ages, kind of like
the post roman, pre-normanperiod, which we know nothing
about.
There's not written about much,apart from kind of one or two
writers, so I would like to findthe venerable bead as one of my
(53:33):
descendants I'll make him afterme People who came before me.
Speaker 5 (53:35):
Ancestors, ancestors, that's the word I'm looking for
.
Yeah, yeah.
Antecedent.
Speaker 4 (53:40):
My brain's gone because even getting to that
point was too taxing for me.
Yeah, my brain's gone becauseeven getting to that point was
too taxing for me.
Yeah, the venerable bead 700,730, something like that.
So, yeah, would have knownenough about the dark ages to
fill in all the bits I'm missing.
Yeah, oh, thank you both somuch for coming on.
It's been a yeah.
I could have just kept goingforever.
This has been an absolutedelight.
Guillem, I will see you on thenext one, but before we go, we
(54:02):
just need to remind anyone who'slistening to this, who's been
interested in it and whywouldn't you be?
Because it's been amazing.
Just leave us a little reviewand then other people will find
the podcast and we'll get abigger audience, which is which
is what we want to do, um, sothanks, bye now, lovely yeah,
see you thank you, we'll see younext time.
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