November 22, 2024 • 44 mins
Ever found yourself chasing a toddler through bustling streets in Vietnam or battling childhood shingles during a family getaway? We share these personal adventures that serve as a lively backdrop to our enlightening conversation on the intricate world of intellectual property. Lee and Gwilym are joined by the insightful Rachel Jones and Jet Doran from Snapdragon IP, who reveal their journey from personal invention to establishing a key player in the fight against online counterfeits. With tales of unexpected innovations and the harsh realities of counterfeiting, this episode promises a unique blend of engaging narratives and critical insights.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Hey, Gwilym, it's been a week or two since we've
done a podcast, so welcome back,if that's the right thing to
say.
Speaker 5 (00:27):
Well, I've been away, but I've had a holiday.
You have, haven't you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Yeah, where have you been?
I know where you've been, butfor the listeners.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Where have you been, hi listeners?
I went to Hong Kong and VietnamSounds really really good.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
And you had a proper break, didn't you?
A bit of downtime.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Yeah, really good, uh , and you had a proper break,
didn't you bit of downtime?
Yeah, yeah, definitely fromwork.
I didn't really think throughtaking a two-year-old to vietnam
as it was fun.
Went to, it went to a cocoafarm, uh, had a car crash you've
not told me that bit oh, thisis, I think it's a daily
occurrence.
It wasn't, it was just a carcrash.
You know, they, just everyone,just the other car just drove
off and our driver just keptdriving and that was that.
But it was over here whoqualified.
(01:07):
It's a fairly decent crunch.
That was quite cool, uh, andit's.
And then stayed in um ho chiminh saigon for just one night,
but that is.
That place is fantastic, so itwas really, really cool.
But again, with a two-year-olddidn't think that through yeah,
it's.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
You know, I remember holiday when the girls were
young.
I remember the first time wewent on holiday, we got really,
really excited about it.
And just as we were getting onthe plane, the day before we
were getting on the plane, evie,who's my youngest daughter,
would have been four or fivevery, very nervous about flying
and she just complained that herside itched a little bit, a
little bit and she had a coupleof spots there.
Took her to a chemist and thechemist said oh, looks like
she's got a little bit of eczemaor something.
(01:45):
Take this cream.
By the time we landed she hadfull-blown childhood shingles.
Now, now, you, you, try, try.
We were on one of the greekislands I can't remember which
it was and we were in one ofthese kind of resort places.
You try and find a doctor whoknows anything about childhood
shingles in in a sort of anenvironment like that.
But fair play to the on-sitedoc.
He was really, really good.
(02:06):
You like this stuff.
I think I might tell you astory more.
It's worth telling.
So he, he did a lot of research.
We'd spoken to our doctor backhome.
They had diagnosed as childhoodshingles.
Uh, just get a load of zaviraxcream until she gets back was
basically the um the help thatwe were offered.
So the doctor chucked me in hiscar.
We couldn't get the virex creamother than going to multiple
(02:26):
pharmacies.
So he's driving me around thisgreek island dropping me off at
pharmacies, and when I would goin there, invariably the person
behind the counter would comeout and say english man with
herpes.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
That was how my holiday went yeah, we, um, we
had to try and translate hand,foot and mouth into vietnamese
in the village and they theybasically said you need to go to
the hospital immediately, andwe think it was not that bad.
We think they thought she hadmonkey pox.
So, yeah, it was fun though.
Yeah, it's good to get away.
(03:00):
Great to be back right, greatto have back.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Shall we crack on with the podcast?
Yeah, so we've got Rachel andJet with us today to talk about
Snapdragon IP, which I thinkwe'll let them tell their story,
shall we?
Who's going to go first?
Rachel, would it make sense foryou to go first?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Great, very happy to.
Thank you so much for invitingus along, very excited and
slightly nervous to be here, butit's great to be here.
I'm Rachel Jones.
I'm the founder and former CEOof Snapdragon, snapdragon
Monitoring, and we fight fakesonline.
That's my one-line intro.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Fight fakes online.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yes, all online threats, but fighting fakes is
how we started.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
That sounds something that's interesting to explore.
Jet, what about you?
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Hi, great to meet you .
So my name is Jet.
I have worked with Rachel atSnapdragon since the beginning
of the business, which was 10years old this week.
So we, as Rachel said, we fightfakes online, so I'm really
passionate about online brandprotection and that's helping
brands detect infringements oftheir intellectual property
(04:14):
rights online on the onlinemarketplaces, social media
platforms, domains, websites andusing the intellectual property
rights that they have availableto shut down infringing content
.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Makes sense, I think, but we'll find out exactly how
much sense it makes.
So you have an interestingorigin story, don't you Rachel?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
We do, yes.
So I have always beenpassionate about IP,
particularly about trademarks,but only because, when I used to
work in marketing many moonsago, I always thought people's
trademark portfolios were reallyinteresting, and 20 or so odd
years ago I invented a babyproduct only because life was
(04:53):
difficult out and about with ababy.
I hadn't got as far as Vietnambut was doing quite a bit of
traveling.
Every time I went into a cafe,somebody hauled a miserably
filthy high chair out of thedownstairs loo and I didn't want
to use it.
So I would take off my jumperand tie my daughter into an
adult chair using the jumper,and I just thought this is nuts,
but this is the only way toactually have a life, which I
(05:14):
felt was incredibly important.
So one very grim day, after ahorrible experience with the
grubby high chair, I chopped upmy wedding dress and turned it
into what became the tot seat,which is a large nappy type
affair which anchors a babysafely in any adult chair when
you're out and about.
It adjusts for any shape orsize of chair and I decided to
(05:37):
take it to market and take it tomarket.
I did, and it did really welland I ended up leaving my other
job and setting up this tot seatbusiness, and the top seat did
very well with selling JohnLewis boots and places like that
in 50 countries around theworld.
And as I was going along Ithought well, I like trademarks,
I'll register my trademark.
So I did that and I got designrights as I was going along,
thought that might be a goodthing to do, thought I would be
(05:58):
copied by the high street chainsand was so.
That was the first infringementof ip I came across and then,
as we went into our 52nd exportterritory I think it was a
counterfeit was seized atsouthampton by my friends at
hmrc border control and I wasenraged, but that I was, I mean,
(06:20):
in a way it was good that itwas seized, because then I
wouldn't have known about thecounterfeits otherwise and I had
registered the Totsie with whatused to be Citex.
It's now the IPEC portal interms of being able to register
products for movement aroundEurope.
And so on the registration formit said the Totsie's moved
around in LCL containers of3,000 units a pop and this was a
(06:40):
box of 36 that had come in andan eagle-eyed officer had
spotted them and the bottom justfell out of my world.
I was just horrified, absolutelyhorrified.
I mean, I knew when high streetchains make a copy, it's theirs
and you know they've made itproperly and it's a copy and
it's infringing your IP and youcan do something about it, but
actually a counterfeit.
It was horrible.
I actually have one here, whichis no use for the listeners,
(07:03):
but it's helpful for you to see.
So we have a genuine one and afake.
And as you can see, even fromthe packaging, it's really
difficult to tell the difference.
And when the fake arrived inthe office, you know, put it on
the table and, you know, hardlyanybody could tell the
difference.
The board couldn't tell thedifference, that the copy was
(07:38):
very good, but where had it beenmade?
How safe was it?
What chemicals were in thecounterfeit, all that kind of
thing.
I had met Jet, who at thatpoint was looking for a role,
having graduated in law andterrorism studies and was
interested in fakes, said comeon, let's go to China.
And we were on a plane and wewent to China, literally went to
Alibaba, guangzhou, and we satin the meeting room, in the
(08:03):
queue to the meeting room, untilthey would see us.
And it was like the scene froma bad film really.
But they did see us and theytaught us how to use IP to take
infringements offline.
And we said to them look, smesare as affected by fakes as
luxury product, which wasn'tnecessarily what they were used
to.
And thus began the story ofSnapdragon.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
And I guess I'm sure Gwyneth has some questions to
ask but I guess alongside thedevastation of having ip
infringed and discovering theiraccount of it, there's also
potential just reputationaldamage, isn't there?
Because if you've got goods outthere which purport to be yours
but aren't of the same qualityand are potentially injurious,
then all of that can bite backon you well, that was my
(08:43):
absolute concern.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I with a baby product as well.
I mean, I just couldn't affordfor somebody to buy a fake and
have a horrible experience withit and you know babies, somebody
could easily have got hurt.
So it was that, it was the kindof health and safety fear that
was driving me to, you know, todo something about it.
I just wasn't going to have it.
I just wasn't going to have it.
(09:10):
I just wasn't going to have it.
And so, once jet and I'dlearned as much as we go to
malabar, but I resolved to comeback, uh, raise money, build
tech, build a team and provide aservice that so nobody else
would go through the same hellthat I'd gone through.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
In a nutshell, yeah, because we're counterfeiting.
I mean people tend to sometimesmaybe trivialize it a bit.
You know it's football shirts,dodgy rolexes, um, which carry
their own ponds, don't get mewrong.
But I think people forget thatcounterfeiting often is really
quite.
I mean the ones that the othertwo of the scary ones I hear
about are obviouslypharmaceuticals terrifying and
(09:34):
airplane parts, that's.
It is that's.
I think you know it's importantthat people realize it's not
just a we're getting a cheapfootball shirt.
It's actually pretty horrificsometimes and I was gonna ask, I
mean, so you see, hmr hmrcstepped in out of interest.
How does that work?
How did you find that?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
um, absolutely fantastic.
I couldn't I mean, I couldn'trecommend them highly enough,
which is not what a lot ofpeople say about hmrc.
But I've had nothing butfantastic experiences with the
border border force team, to beperfectly honest.
Honestly, they're great, I mean.
I mean, I think it's verydifficult for border force,
isn't it?
They're very under-resourced,like every other bit of anybody
involved in policingintellectual property crime, and
(10:13):
not a lot of containers areinspected when they move around
and they have to look for peoplein armaments and drugs before
they look for intellectualproperty infringing product.
But if you do go through theprocess by filling out the right
forms and making sure that yourproduct is on that list of
things that they need to lookout for, then you may be lucky
and they will find them, andthen you can have your products
seized and you can do somethingabout it.
(10:34):
So I think it's reallyimportant that it's free to do
and you can do the European one,and it translates it all into a
vast number of languages forevery European port, and it's
all free and it's just in yourbest interest if.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
How do they remember it all?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Well, I suppose the system, they have a system, so
it's a brilliantly organizedcomputerized system and I guess
when they have stuff coming inthey probably put the
description in and it might flagsomething up that would be in
it like a database.
So it'll be a really super,super efficient database, which
I haven't gone into the nittygritty of how it works.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And in the UK there are agencies like the
Anti-Counterfeiting Group.
There are agencies like theanti-counterfeiting group, so
they'll run regular and theycall them ip road shows where
they invite members from borderforce to meet brands themselves
and they talk in person and theyrun them through examples of
real, real and fake and theyprovide them with fact sheets
and all sorts of helpful toolsand tips.
(11:29):
So the more, the more investedthe brand is in assisting them
with that information, the morelikely they're going to be to to
spot infringements when theyoccur.
And we can leave some links ifhelpful.
I don't know if you have uhnotes in the in the podcast on
the podcast, but we could putsome helpful links.
There's the um uk applicationfor action, the equivalent in
(11:52):
the eu, and then there's one forthe us as well was something
like top seat.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Is that kind of eminently counterfeitable?
Was it in the sweet spot, as itwere?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
well, I'm afraid nowadays, everything's in the
sweet spot for beingcounterfeited.
It's a cloth product, it's afabric product, so really very,
very easy to copy.
But isn't everything now?
I mean everything fromtoothpaste to ball bearings.
You know, we see.
You know, we see it all thetime and absolutely every single
day.
I was just a bit taken abackthat you know something as well
as basic as a baby product wouldbe ripped off.
(12:22):
But we see it all the time withcrowdfunding products, people
have wonderful ideas and they goonline with them to crowdfund
and, sadly, frequently beforethe product gets to market, the
counterfeit gets to marketbecause they get masses of
traction online.
People think it's a great idea.
It is a really great idea, butcounterfeiters have
sophisticated and complexmanufacturing and supply and
(12:43):
distribution chains and they canbe very efficient.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Quick legal question.
So when you pick up yourcounterfeiter, which rights are
you relying on?
Is it principally IP, or arethere other rights you can lean
on as well?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
We use IP rights, Jet .
Do you want to talk more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, so at Snapdragon , we're relying on intellectual
property rights.
So we use a notice and takedownsystems that are available to
report infringement, and we'rereporting infringement to the
platform or to whoever's hostingthe content.
So we're not liaising directlywith the sellers, we're not
getting into that kind of battle.
(13:18):
We're reporting the content tothe host.
So we're using all sorts ofintellectual property rights
trademarks, copyright, designs,patents but in the main, yeah,
intellectual property.
Sometimes there's theopportunity to liaise with the
platform if there's issuesaround safety, and then they
(13:38):
will potentially intervene, butit's quite difficult because
then you might have to provethat the product is unsafe, um,
so that might require sometesting.
So then, who takes on theexpense of doing that?
But, yeah, in general it'sintellectual property rights you
mentioned platforms there.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
I mean, is that, if you kind of nailed the major
online platforms, does that dealwith?
Is that kind of an 80 20 thingwhere you you get enough of it
to stop the problem?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
or I mean it's really about trying to address our
clients pain points.
So where are their biggest painpoints?
It might just be on keyplatforms that are competing
with their own sales.
It might be looking atwholesale marketplaces in order
to kind of deal with the problemat source and the hope that
there'll be a trickle-downeffect.
It might be that they want toshut down, clone fake websites
(14:27):
that have been set up to kind ofscam people out of their
personal contact details orfinancial details people out of
their personal contact detailsor financial details.
So it really depends on what'sthe biggest threat to the brand.
Is it financial, is itreputational?
If there's concerns around themanufacturing process, because
sometimes we might find thatcounterfeit products are
(14:47):
manufactured in some reallyunsavory conditions.
There might be child labor,slave labor, there might be
environmental pollution.
So then it becomes important tokind of locate the source of
the problem so that our clientscan go in with perhaps some
offline action in terms oflitigation or shutting down a
factory.
So it's really looking at wherethe biggest pain points are.
(15:10):
It's very difficult for a brandany brand of any size to
address all of these problems,so it's usually about
prioritizing their issues juston sorry, this I'm supposed to
be on the podcast.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I'm really interested .
Um, in terms of the platforms,let's not name any names for
people who don't meet thefollowing criteria but typically
do you find that they're veryopen and ready to move and have
good systems in place to makesure that they can stop
counterfeiting?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Some better than others, without a doubt.
I won't name any names ofcompanies that aren't doing it
well, but some have put somereal effort and resources into
building user-friendly platforms.
They have teams of well-trainedpeople who understand
intellectual property issues andtake appropriate action.
(16:00):
I think it's difficult becausethey need to be aware of the
fact that sometimes the systemis also abused.
Some rights holders might beusing the system to shut down
competition, so we're oftenhaving to prove the infringement
.
So there's a lot of informationthat's required to prove the
(16:22):
infringement has taken place,that our clients are indeed the
owners of the intellectualproperty rights.
We have to be very mindful thatwe are making a correct
accusation.
In the UK we're all fearfulabout groundless threats, not so
much in other jurisdictions.
But it's really important touse these processes carefully
and properly.
(16:42):
But some are more user-friendlythan others.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
And the ones are pretty good.
You know it's a big resource.
This is again an interestingquestion why?
Why is it important to theplatforms?
They're losing sales questionwhy?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
why is it important to the platforms?
They're losing sales?
Yes, thankfully there there'slegislation that makes them take
action in most jurisdictions,so they don't think they have a
choice in the matter.
But also they want to be seento, you know, be selling
legitimate product.
It's important for them toattract um brands themselves,
(17:18):
and we've seen it with amazon,where some brands have
completely withdrawn from theplatform brands like birkenstock
because they um didn't feelthat perhaps amazon was taking
appropriate action to deal withissues around counterfeits.
So there can be repercussionsfor them um if they're seen to
not be doing the right thingmolly, should I keep rolling?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
are you done?
Are you done?
I'll keep going, keep going.
Then I've got questions.
I've got questions, but you'reon the roll, mate I'm on, I'm on
the roll.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I'm on the roll.
I'm gonna just go sideways fora minute and jet sorry but
dominating you for a minute.
But um, so that's the law sideof your study.
How does the terrorism come inuseful?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I knew he'd go there well, unfortunately there there
are definitely connectionsbetween um, between
counterfeiting and terroristorganizations.
You know, often the the moneyinvolved in counterfeiting is
really being used for nefariouspurposes.
(18:16):
So you know, to go back to thepoint you made earlier, people
often trivialize the issue ofcounterfeiting but there are,
you know, pretty significantimpacts.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
This money is often used for lots of horrific
criminal activity, includingterrorism that's kind of one for
me, for a minute at least, isabout again a bit more
philosophical.
You're relying on ip lawsprincipally, um, you know your
trademarks and copyright,whatever it might be um to
(18:45):
invoke, and obviously customsthen steps up and does a great
job and it's full-oncounterfeiting and they can spot
it and everything.
But you're relying on laws thatI think the most recent one's
probably the trademarks act,which is about 1990, something,
um.
And then you've got copyright,designs, patents act, 1988, and
if you're on the patents actit's 1977.
They're quite old laws.
(19:06):
Do we need a rewrite?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
well, it's difficult because the legal framework has
just not caught up with what'shappening online at all, and
this isn't just aboutintellectual property.
It's happening in lots ofdifferent areas of law, um, and
I think you know, a really umgood example of that is around
(19:28):
deep, deep fake pornography.
It's absolutely horrific.
What's um permitted to happenonline aroundfake pornography
without any legal framework toreally do anything about it, and
it's changing, but it'schanging painfully slowly.
So, yes, I think we need arewrite of most laws when it
(19:48):
comes to the digital space.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Sorry, just to add my tuppence worth in there.
Even the systems, I mean thereasons that some of the
application processes are soslow, is because a patent
application used to go on a boatand it would go across the
Atlantic on a boat to be lookedat somewhere else, and so the
timeline was all about how longthe boat took to go across the
Atlantic and come back again.
I mean, maybe we do need anupdate on that kind of thing as
well.
(20:12):
Yeah, I mean maybe we do needan update on that kind of thing
as well.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Yeah, we'll still work on that.
Yeah, I'm off by boat.
I'm good with that.
No, it's interesting, isn't it?
I think there's something.
I mean, I'm a patent attorney,that's my world, and there's
always conversations about the18-month publication period
that's how long it used to taketo publish things and the
one-year priority period that'show long it used to take to to
travel and everything, and the20-year patent duration.
(20:38):
That at some point was ageneration or something, I don't
even know.
But obviously all these thingsare now well out of date.
The problem, I guess, is that,certainly in an area where you
need international harmonization, you can't open any of these
cans of worms, because you opena conversation about one thing
and opens up a whole bunch ofaccess to medicine, arguments or
whatever these things.
So I guess politically it mightbe quite difficult to make
(20:59):
those changes.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I think it is because you could make the
change in the UK, but actually,if the change was relevant
somewhere else in the world,then they might not have even
the telecommunications speed atwhich to comply with all of that
.
So, yeah, it's an internationalthing, isn't it?
It's not just about where weare.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
And when it comes to intellectual property, this is
so relevant because often IP isregistered from one jurisdiction
to the next, it's registereddifferently, whereas the global
nature of the internet justmeans that that jurisdictional
cutoff isn't necessarilyrelevant.
And it's a big problem, andwe're seeing more and more court
(21:40):
cases which have, you know,invited us to look at whether
this system still works or notand in terms of the work that we
do.
Some marketplaces, someplatforms, are considered
international, so the the likesof Alibaba or AliExpress.
It's possible on theseplatforms to enforce
(22:01):
intellectual property rightsthat aren't necessarily
registered in China, where theAlibaba group is based, despite
the fact that a lot of thesellers are going to also be
based in China.
But you can actually use yourintellectual property rights
that are registered in the UK,say, to have content removed
from those platforms, becausethe platform recognises that
(22:22):
actually a lot of their sellersare coming from all over the
world or their buyers are comingfrom all over the world.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
So are you done, willem?
Is that it?
Are you done for now, for aminute?
For a minute, okay.
Can I have a question or two?
Is that all right?
Get in?
So I think probably back torachel, for this one is first of
all, is top seat still a thing?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
is it still a product ?
Are you still selling it?
Just about, just about?
It's a very wee, it's a verywee business and it just sells
online.
But yes it, it ticks, it, ticksover, it ticks over.
It's still a fantastic product,to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So if you're traveling with a child, it's
what you need that's, but it'sbeen a long time, although I am
now traveling with grandchildren, so maybe I do need to oh well,
maybe that's what you need then.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yes, six months to about 18 months we could have
done with something like thatnumber seven.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Grandchild is due in january, so I'll have a little.
I'll have a little look anotherone another one.
I know, gwilym, I know there'strouble having so many children.
Is that they multiply, then, bya factor, don't they?
The reason I asked Rachel isobviously there was a point in
time when you realized thatTotsie was not going to be the
future business for you, andSnapdragon, whatever it looked
(23:32):
like at the time, was.
Do you want to tell us how thatcame about?
When did you decide to growthis as a business?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, it's a really good question and it was really
thanks to the tot seat investorthat I was able to kind of what
I would term as pivot althoughit's quite a pivot going from
manufacturing a baby productinto deciding that you're going
to develop tech and scale a techbusiness when you're a
non-technical founder.
So I think it really came atthe point where I thought, well,
we've got rid of as many faketot seats online as we possibly
can.
And with Jet joining me, we hada little pact and we decided
(24:08):
that if we could find enoughpeople who would be encouraged
by our finding fakes for themonline and taking them offline,
so kind of demonstrating thatactually this was all a totally
manual process at this point,but we discovered there were
lots of people in the babyindustry that had fakes.
They just weren't talking aboutthem and I was like this is
nuts, these are products wheresomebody could get hurt.
Let's talk about this issue.
It's really important.
(24:29):
It's not a victimless crime.
Let's just do something aboutit.
So we did, and we gave ourselvesthree months and we identified
enough potential clients whowere happy with what we were
doing.
They were thrilled with what wedid and actually some of them
are still with us to that day.
And at that point I said right,well, I'm going to try and
develop.
Snapdragon went off and raisedjust about 4 million to do that
(24:51):
in terms of investment, equityinvestment, and built the team.
And well, had to build a techteam because, being
non-technical, no good at that.
And there we are, and so nowwe're a team of just under 30.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Wow, so just a small thing you said there.
You said we identify clients.
Do you identify clients byidentifying them as individual
brands, who, who might bevictims of counterfeiting?
Or do you find the counterfeitsfirst and then go to the brands
and say, look, this ishappening to you.
You might not know about it?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
well, in the in the very early days, because I was
immersed in the toy and babyindustry, which is, um, quite an
interesting place to be I wasjust so furious that there were
fakes of toy and baby productsthat I went to those brands and
said, look, you've got issues.
You know, let me help.
I totally get it.
I mean, I totally get the rageand I totally get all the issues
(25:45):
that might happen, you know, ifsomebody buys one of these
fakes Nowadays a little bit both, but most of our clients come
to us through word of mouth, tobe perfectly honest.
So you know, one can alwaysraise one's profile.
It's nice to raise one'sprofile, but most people come to
us through recommendation.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, and without giving away any sort of like
operational secrets or tradesecrets, I guess you might
otherwise think of them.
How do you identifycounterfeiting?
How do you find these fakegoods that are appearing online?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, ok, so we have developed some proprietary
software which we call Swoop,and we're using a combination of
search terms, of search terms,and so we're using search terms
to go and identify infringingproducts.
(26:35):
So these will be products thatkind of best describe our
clients' products or brands andthen our software goes off and
finds those products on thevarious marketplaces, social
media sites, and then we'reusing AI capabilities to sift
through those hundreds ofthousands of results and make
sure that only the most relevantresults are brought to the fore
(26:56):
.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
That sounds really sophisticated.
How do the online platformsfeel about being swooped?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
That is a great question.
Some are fabulous and they willprovide us with an api to help
us I guess that's what I wasthinking.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Is that kind of the interoperability bit?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
isn't it is the key yeah, some do and some actively
try to block us from from doingthis.
So, yeah, you can't?
Speaker 4 (27:23):
you can't tell us which do what again?
No, no, that's a terriblyunfair question.
Gwilym is shaking his head atme now.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Can I say that eBay are great.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
You've identified the counterfeit, what's the first
action?
You have your client, thebusiness that's working with you
.
You talked earlier about kindof takedowns and stuff like that
.
I don't actually understand howthat works.
I guess is what I'm saying howdo you go about that initial
action of saying, hey, this iscounterfeit, it's wrong, it's
affecting your business, we needto do something about it?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, so we will talk them through various processes.
I mean, it's important toremember that we're not IP
lawyers, so we'll oftenrecommend that they go back and
speak to their legal counselwhether it's internal or
external about the best approach.
So it might be that, beforeanything happens, the most
(28:20):
sensible thing to do would be todo a test purchase so that
there's that physical evidencein hand and you can do really
thorough comparison between thereal product and the fake and
then decide what actions shouldbest follow on from there.
But sometimes the client justwants to have that product
(28:40):
removed from sales.
So then we would follow aprocess that's known as notice
and takedown, where we'reessentially notifying the
platform about our client'sintellectual property rights and
highlighting that there couldbe an overlap here between our
client's IP rights and theproducts that are being sold
online, and then the platformstake action on that basis to
(29:02):
remove the infringing content orperhaps remove the whole
listing, depending on the IPbeing infringed.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Got it.
So I think what I understandfrom that is that you're not
looking to take away from thecurrent existing legal support
systems that a client might havein place, be that patent
attorney, trademark attorney,solicitor, in-house legal
counsel, whatever that mightlook like.
You're adding value in terms ofproviding some really sort of
sensitive radar technology tofind out where things are
(29:31):
happening.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, absolutely
really really nice way to tosummarize it actually, and often
you should write our marketingblurbs.
Often are the lawyers that wework with are using our software
to really gather evidence aswell what is out there, what's
(29:52):
being sold.
So it's not necessarily aboutmoving as quickly as possible to
shut down those listings.
It can be an exercise ingathering intelligence so that
they can then decide what bestto do with that information.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So probably final question for me before I kick it
back to Gwilym, if he's got anymore to ask what next?
Where do you go with thebusiness next?
What other future things canyou maybe develop that will help
the legal system tacklecounterfeiting and fraud?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Well, you just have to be two steps ahead all the
time, because counterfeiters andfraudsters are cleverer and
cleverer by the minute.
The rise in fake domains thatwe saw over COVID has just been
extraordinary.
I mean we used to deal mainlywith products, but actually
increasingly since COVID we'veseen a lot of service firms
being ripped off domains, as Jetmentioned earlier on, and from
(30:41):
there invoices go out and peoplepay them and so actually that
becomes a massive issue aroundfinancial fraud and stuff.
So we have to continue to bevery wily on the ball, being
aware of what's out there fromNFT marketplaces and social
media and all the rest of it, sothat we can keep brands safe
wherever they are in the world.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I think up until now it's been relatively easy for us
to be able to detectinfringements, because
infringers are often, you know,a little bit lazy and they'll
leave some important element ofa product out that enables us to
detect real from fake.
But I think that that's goingto become more and more
(31:19):
difficult because noweverybody's using AI and it will
be really interesting to seehow that's being used to make it
more difficult to detectinfringements online.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Oh great, Anything else you want?
Speaker 5 (31:34):
to ask.
Yeah, I was going to actuallyjust expand a bit on that
earlier reflection about how oldour laws are.
Just none of them built for thedigital space and actually just
taking that kind of one stepfurther, so they weren't just
not built for the digital space.
They also weren't built and Ithink, rachel, you touched on
this, they weren't built for out, kind of one step further, so
they weren't just not built forthe digital space.
They also weren't built and Ithink, rachel, you touched on
this, they weren't built for thekind of the international
nature, um, the cross-bordernature.
There's such a territorialelement to all the ip rights, so
(31:57):
there's, there's all theseproblems and, as we said, you
have to change that.
And in my world standards,essential patents has a
brilliant example where you'retrying to enforce patents in one
country against telecoms.
Basically it's a global product, it doesn't really exist in one
place and so people have tokind of fiddle around with the
law and make stuff up.
But by the same token, Isuppose the traditional legal
(32:20):
model it's still kind of verymuch grounded in the physical
world.
I'd say In terms of you know,we think about ourselves, we're
based in a country and we dealwith the laws of that country,
whereas what you're kind ofdoing is you're kind of
expanding that to almost adigital analogue.
Digital analogue Is that acomplete contradiction?
You know what I mean?
(32:41):
You're expanding it to kind ofa digital version of that, where
you're kind of an online lawlaw firm almost, or, sorry, a
takedown firm, a fight-fakesonline firm, sorry, I just
checked my notes.
Do you think the old model ofkind of having a physical
location and being a physicallybased and physically oriented
law firm may be something thatwe need to think about more
(33:02):
broadly?
Are you the first?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
No, we're definitely not the first in terms of what
we do and in fact, I work with alaw firm that I keep saying is
based in Glasgow, but in factthey're not based in Glasgow at
all.
There's seven or eight of themand they're all different parts
of the country and some of themare in Europe and they do a
great job.
So, and you know, they meet upthree or four times a year and I
would use them for anything atall in terms of corporate law,
(33:25):
ip, trademark registrations, allthe rest of it.
So they're a relatively smallfirm.
But I mean, I think from ourpoint of view, what matters to
us and why we love workingthrough and with IP experts and
law firms is that when you'reworking with a law firm doing
what we're doing, you get theopportunity to say you know, we
can see there's an issue in thePhilippines, could you do
something about filing sometrademarks there?
And that's really wonderful,because we don't do any filings
(33:52):
like that.
But we often identify that abrand that is trying to expand
its export markets has an issuesomewhere else, but it needs to
clear up that marketplace of thefakes before it really goes in
and makes an impact.
That's not really answeringyour question, but the
internationalism of it is.
I really believe passionatelyin the power of
internationalizing product andexport, so I feel very strongly
about that kind of thinginternationalizing product and
export.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So feel very strongly about that kind of thing and
actually there we're quite luckybecause there are conventions
that exist, like the, the brandconvention, to which most
countries in the world have, um,our signatory.
That means that we can enforcecopyright without registration
in most, most countries in theworld.
So that's really powerful tool,um.
And then I think, in terms ofintellectual property,
(34:30):
registered intellectual property, there's things like the Madrid
Protocol.
There are systems in placewhich mean that there's that
recognition that it's importantfor intellectual property to be
considered not just in onejurisdiction but across multiple
.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
I often think that international conventions were
kind of slipped in under theradar before ip became as big as
it is now.
I do wonder whether we'd everget another international burn
convention together or a newkind of international patent
system like the pct or evenmadrid, it's quite.
It's worrying me a little bitthat maybe that era of
international cooperation mightbe diminishing at the moment,
(35:06):
which is not what we need,obviously no, no, burn
convention's fantastic, though.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Three cheers for whoever organized that political
hot potato thrown in at the endby william.
So one of my, one of my otherjobs on the podcast, other than
trying to summarize stuff andask interesting questions, is to
keep us to time.
Goingwen, and I'm consciousthat, um, we're, we're there,
we're there about.
We always like to ask ourguests whether there are any
(35:34):
questions that they haven't feelthat we've asked or they've not
answered.
So are you sat there thinking,ah, wish they'd asked us that
one any more of the story totell um, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think I would just say if anybody's taking a
product to market, please atleast register trademarks.
I believe passionately in thepower of a trademark.
I know this is a podcast forpatent people in the main and
also, if you're registering apatent and a design right hasn't
been considered, then designrights are incredibly powerful,
particularly online.
Jet's a bit of an expert ondesign rights.
(36:03):
I'm not, but that would be myparting comment.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Definitely take out the bit of me being an expert on
design rights.
I'm not, but um, that would bemy, my parting comment.
Definitely take out the bit ofme being an expert.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, you know more about them, more eloquently than
I do but design rights are verypowerful online, yeah,
particularly when you'redefending a product, because
sometimes if a patent if it'spage 32, paragraph 6 of a patent
that needs to be defended interms of an infringement, then
it may be that the person thatyou're liaising with doesn't
speak the language that thepatent was written in and it's
very difficult to explain that.
So a design right can be a mucheasier thing to use in defense
(36:34):
of a product.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that would also be myyeah, my parting comment would
be to really consider theimportance of registered designs
.
While not inexpensive, they aremuch more affordable than
patents.
There's also the advantage of agrace period.
In lots of jurisdictions,including the UK and the EU, the
(36:56):
speed of protection is, youknow, very quick in comparison
to other types of IP.
And I would say to reallyconsider, you know, getting
professional intellectualproperty advisors advice on this
.
There's lots of opportunitiesto have a free 30-minute
consultation with an IP lawyerand you know, beyond that, it
(37:18):
will be money well spent.
If done correctly, registereddesigns will stand you in good
stead.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
That's a really good point and one we don't touch on
on the podcast often enoughbecause quite often we don't
talk about all strands of IPsimultaneously as we've done
today.
So our members, sipa, weprovide introductory clinics, we
call them to the world of IP.
Those come on 45 minutes to anhour.
So exactly what you said there,jet.
That's an opportunity forsomeone who's perhaps new to the
(37:44):
world of IP just inventedsomething, just thought
something to come along.
No obligation, no risk ofdisclosure, no conflict, just an
opportunity to talk to aqualified attorney around sorts
of protections that might beavailable.
And it might be that thesethings aren't well enough known
and most of our firms, most ofour members who work in firms,
will do similar consultationsthrough the firm.
(38:06):
So the way into ip doesn'tnecessarily have to be
particularly onerous orexpensive and I think you're
right.
People need to consider it assoon as possible yeah,
definitely that's a great littleone.
That's a great little way to endthe podcast, but we're not
ending the podcast there becauseyou two don't know this.
William knows only too well.
I have another little job andthat's to.
While we're talking, sit herethinking about an ingenious,
(38:28):
clever question to finish, withwhich I'm going to throw at
Gwilym first, but then it'llcome to you two and then he'll
very cleverly turn it back on me.
So, gwilym, we've been talkinga lot about online platforms for
buying stuff.
I think we all know we'retalking kind of like our Amazons
and Ebays and those kinds ofplaces.
What's the most unexpectedlyuseful or disappointingly not
(38:52):
fit for purpose or just joyousthing you've ever bought from an
online platform?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
That's exciting.
Oh, it's a bass guitar.
It's a bass guitar.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
No, you can't go for a bass guitar.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Why can't I go for a bass guitar?
It was joyous.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You said joyous yeah, but that did exactly what you
were expecting it to do, surely?
Speaker 5 (39:13):
no, because it made me sound like I could play the
bass.
It was brilliant beautiful pieceof kit, um, and I made a lovely
noise.
No it, it was joyous.
I bought some kind of strangegadgets oh, avocado, avocado
stoners and peelers, you knowthose funny shaped things.
(39:33):
That was a big lockdown for me.
I did a lot of avocado that wasremarkably versatile Within the
avocado kind of you know,sphere.
It wasn't really a sphere.
Oh God, right, there you go.
Sphere.
It wasn't really a sphere.
Oh God, right, there you go.
I feel like I've nailed thatone.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Which of our two victims, I guess, should I go to
Rachel?
How about you?
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So I have bought a joyous product this year online
which has transformed my lifeand my wardrobe, and it's a wee
hoover for jumpers that takesaway all the little bobbly bits
and I can't tell you how much.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I love it, I'm gonna debubbler.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
It's called a debubbler a debubbler,
absolutely marvelous, and it hascompletely transformed my
wardrobe and it's about totransform everybody's Christmas.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
I can't recommend it highly enough, honestly go on
then Jet, you can't do, can't doa deep bubbler obviously no, no
, but I I'm with you on that one, rachel.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Everything I mean I I buy everything from second hand
online marketplaces and youknow, sometimes you do have to
still be careful about issueswith counterfeits or fakes.
But if you're carefulespecially if you're avoiding
certain brands you can.
You can completely avoid buyingnew by using the likes of ebay
(40:53):
or vintage, which is reallygreat.
Not only you're getting a goodbargain, but you're you're doing
your bit for the environment.
But we have also seen examplesof absolutely horrific things
online, um.
So yeah, these are the oppositeof what you're asking, so not
joyous at all, but yeah, youmentioned some horrific examples
(41:14):
at the beginning of the podcast, but we've also seen
counterfeit life jackets forchildren, so there are some
pretty horrible things out thereso we're finished, so we're
finished no, we're not.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
You know what you've got to do.
Lee, lee out of interest.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
I'm usually this time I didn't have an answer in
advance.
I've had to sit here thinkingabout it and I bought probably
five or six years ago in amoment of boredom.
I like tools, rachel, jet.
I'm a kind of I'm a plumber bytrade in the dark, distant past
and I've never really escapedthat sort of practical desire to
do stuff.
Speaker 5 (41:49):
He's also not mentioned it on the podcast.
So, Lee, that was brilliantbecause we nearly made it.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
I never knew whether it would work or not, but it's.
You know, socket sets that youmight use in cars and stuff like
loosening nuts and so on.
So I bought this very largesocket and inside it's just got
lots of pins so it fits almostanything.
You know, it'll fit aconventional nut, or if you're
trying to put one of those likehooks and eyes into a wall,
that'll kind of a slot aroundthat.
(42:19):
Or if there's something a bitodd like a half broken screw or
something, it'll fit around that.
It's been a game changer for me.
It's pretty much my go-to tool.
First and it was like 10 quidon amazon or something like that
absolutely transformed my lifeyou can get those if you're
arthritic for turning taps,can't you?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
yes, yeah, yeah yeah, my, my dad is a plumber and he
always tells the story that I'venever actually checked to see
if it's true, but he said that aplumber had the idea to put two
handles on a children's sippycup.
So yeah, he always uses that asan example of why plumbers are
brilliant.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
No, no idea, Possibly , possibly.
Thank you both for coming onand telling the Snapdragon story
, which is obviously yourstories.
Thank you, gwilym, for being agenial host once more, and
probably should end the podcastjust by saying to people if
they've listened to this podcastand found it interesting and
engaging and why wouldn't you,it was a great story then give
(43:19):
us a little recommendation orleave us a comment and then
that'll help other people find apodcast.
That's it, we're done.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thank you so much.
It's been an absolute privilegeto take part and lovely to meet
you both, so thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, outro Music.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Hey, Gwilym, it's been a week or two since we've
done a podcast, so welcome back,if that's the right thing to
say.
Speaker 5 (00:27):
Well, I've been away, but I've had a holiday.
You have, haven't you?
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Yeah, where have you been?
I know where you've been, butfor the listeners.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Where have you been, hi listeners?
I went to Hong Kong and VietnamSounds really really good.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
And you had a proper break, didn't you?
A bit of downtime.
Speaker 5 (00:47):
Yeah, really good, uh , and you had a proper break,
didn't you bit of downtime?
Yeah, yeah, definitely fromwork.
I didn't really think throughtaking a two-year-old to vietnam
as it was fun.
Went to, it went to a cocoafarm, uh, had a car crash you've
not told me that bit oh, thisis, I think it's a daily
occurrence.
It wasn't, it was just a carcrash.
You know, they, just everyone,just the other car just drove
off and our driver just keptdriving and that was that.
But it was over here whoqualified.
(01:07):
It's a fairly decent crunch.
That was quite cool, uh, andit's.
And then stayed in um ho chiminh saigon for just one night,
but that is.
That place is fantastic, so itwas really, really cool.
But again, with a two-year-olddidn't think that through yeah,
it's.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
You know, I remember holiday when the girls were
young.
I remember the first time wewent on holiday, we got really,
really excited about it.
And just as we were getting onthe plane, the day before we
were getting on the plane, evie,who's my youngest daughter,
would have been four or fivevery, very nervous about flying
and she just complained that herside itched a little bit, a
little bit and she had a coupleof spots there.
Took her to a chemist and thechemist said oh, looks like
she's got a little bit of eczemaor something.
(01:45):
Take this cream.
By the time we landed she hadfull-blown childhood shingles.
Now, now, you, you, try, try.
We were on one of the greekislands I can't remember which
it was and we were in one ofthese kind of resort places.
You try and find a doctor whoknows anything about childhood
shingles in in a sort of anenvironment like that.
But fair play to the on-sitedoc.
He was really, really good.
(02:06):
You like this stuff.
I think I might tell you astory more.
It's worth telling.
So he, he did a lot of research.
We'd spoken to our doctor backhome.
They had diagnosed as childhoodshingles.
Uh, just get a load of zaviraxcream until she gets back was
basically the um the help thatwe were offered.
So the doctor chucked me in hiscar.
We couldn't get the virex creamother than going to multiple
(02:26):
pharmacies.
So he's driving me around thisgreek island dropping me off at
pharmacies, and when I would goin there, invariably the person
behind the counter would comeout and say english man with
herpes.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
That was how my holiday went yeah, we, um, we
had to try and translate hand,foot and mouth into vietnamese
in the village and they theybasically said you need to go to
the hospital immediately, andwe think it was not that bad.
We think they thought she hadmonkey pox.
So, yeah, it was fun though.
Yeah, it's good to get away.
(03:00):
Great to be back right, greatto have back.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
Shall we crack on with the podcast?
Yeah, so we've got Rachel andJet with us today to talk about
Snapdragon IP, which I thinkwe'll let them tell their story,
shall we?
Who's going to go first?
Rachel, would it make sense foryou to go first?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Great, very happy to.
Thank you so much for invitingus along, very excited and
slightly nervous to be here, butit's great to be here.
I'm Rachel Jones.
I'm the founder and former CEOof Snapdragon, snapdragon
Monitoring, and we fight fakesonline.
That's my one-line intro.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Fight fakes online.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yes, all online threats, but fighting fakes is
how we started.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
That sounds something that's interesting to explore.
Jet, what about you?
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Hi, great to meet you .
So my name is Jet.
I have worked with Rachel atSnapdragon since the beginning
of the business, which was 10years old this week.
So we, as Rachel said, we fightfakes online, so I'm really
passionate about online brandprotection and that's helping
brands detect infringements oftheir intellectual property
(04:14):
rights online on the onlinemarketplaces, social media
platforms, domains, websites andusing the intellectual property
rights that they have availableto shut down infringing content
.
Speaker 4 (04:25):
Makes sense, I think, but we'll find out exactly how
much sense it makes.
So you have an interestingorigin story, don't you Rachel?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
We do, yes.
So I have always beenpassionate about IP,
particularly about trademarks,but only because, when I used to
work in marketing many moonsago, I always thought people's
trademark portfolios were reallyinteresting, and 20 or so odd
years ago I invented a babyproduct only because life was
(04:53):
difficult out and about with ababy.
I hadn't got as far as Vietnambut was doing quite a bit of
traveling.
Every time I went into a cafe,somebody hauled a miserably
filthy high chair out of thedownstairs loo and I didn't want
to use it.
So I would take off my jumperand tie my daughter into an
adult chair using the jumper,and I just thought this is nuts,
but this is the only way toactually have a life, which I
(05:14):
felt was incredibly important.
So one very grim day, after ahorrible experience with the
grubby high chair, I chopped upmy wedding dress and turned it
into what became the tot seat,which is a large nappy type
affair which anchors a babysafely in any adult chair when
you're out and about.
It adjusts for any shape orsize of chair and I decided to
(05:37):
take it to market and take it tomarket.
I did, and it did really welland I ended up leaving my other
job and setting up this tot seatbusiness, and the top seat did
very well with selling JohnLewis boots and places like that
in 50 countries around theworld.
And as I was going along Ithought well, I like trademarks,
I'll register my trademark.
So I did that and I got designrights as I was going along,
thought that might be a goodthing to do, thought I would be
(05:58):
copied by the high street chainsand was so.
That was the first infringementof ip I came across and then,
as we went into our 52nd exportterritory I think it was a
counterfeit was seized atsouthampton by my friends at
hmrc border control and I wasenraged, but that I was, I mean,
(06:20):
in a way it was good that itwas seized, because then I
wouldn't have known about thecounterfeits otherwise and I had
registered the Totsie with whatused to be Citex.
It's now the IPEC portal interms of being able to register
products for movement aroundEurope.
And so on the registration formit said the Totsie's moved
around in LCL containers of3,000 units a pop and this was a
(06:40):
box of 36 that had come in andan eagle-eyed officer had
spotted them and the bottom justfell out of my world.
I was just horrified, absolutelyhorrified.
I mean, I knew when high streetchains make a copy, it's theirs
and you know they've made itproperly and it's a copy and
it's infringing your IP and youcan do something about it, but
actually a counterfeit.
It was horrible.
I actually have one here, whichis no use for the listeners,
(07:03):
but it's helpful for you to see.
So we have a genuine one and afake.
And as you can see, even fromthe packaging, it's really
difficult to tell the difference.
And when the fake arrived inthe office, you know, put it on
the table and, you know, hardlyanybody could tell the
difference.
The board couldn't tell thedifference, that the copy was
(07:38):
very good, but where had it beenmade?
How safe was it?
What chemicals were in thecounterfeit, all that kind of
thing.
I had met Jet, who at thatpoint was looking for a role,
having graduated in law andterrorism studies and was
interested in fakes, said comeon, let's go to China.
And we were on a plane and wewent to China, literally went to
Alibaba, guangzhou, and we satin the meeting room, in the
(08:03):
queue to the meeting room, untilthey would see us.
And it was like the scene froma bad film really.
But they did see us and theytaught us how to use IP to take
infringements offline.
And we said to them look, smesare as affected by fakes as
luxury product, which wasn'tnecessarily what they were used
to.
And thus began the story ofSnapdragon.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
And I guess I'm sure Gwyneth has some questions to
ask but I guess alongside thedevastation of having ip
infringed and discovering theiraccount of it, there's also
potential just reputationaldamage, isn't there?
Because if you've got goods outthere which purport to be yours
but aren't of the same qualityand are potentially injurious,
then all of that can bite backon you well, that was my
(08:43):
absolute concern.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I with a baby product as well.
I mean, I just couldn't affordfor somebody to buy a fake and
have a horrible experience withit and you know babies, somebody
could easily have got hurt.
So it was that, it was the kindof health and safety fear that
was driving me to, you know, todo something about it.
I just wasn't going to have it.
I just wasn't going to have it.
(09:10):
I just wasn't going to have it.
And so, once jet and I'dlearned as much as we go to
malabar, but I resolved to comeback, uh, raise money, build
tech, build a team and provide aservice that so nobody else
would go through the same hellthat I'd gone through.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
In a nutshell, yeah, because we're counterfeiting.
I mean people tend to sometimesmaybe trivialize it a bit.
You know it's football shirts,dodgy rolexes, um, which carry
their own ponds, don't get mewrong.
But I think people forget thatcounterfeiting often is really
quite.
I mean the ones that the othertwo of the scary ones I hear
about are obviouslypharmaceuticals terrifying and
(09:34):
airplane parts, that's.
It is that's.
I think you know it's importantthat people realize it's not
just a we're getting a cheapfootball shirt.
It's actually pretty horrificsometimes and I was gonna ask, I
mean, so you see, hmr hmrcstepped in out of interest.
How does that work?
How did you find that?
Speaker 1 (09:52):
um, absolutely fantastic.
I couldn't I mean, I couldn'trecommend them highly enough,
which is not what a lot ofpeople say about hmrc.
But I've had nothing butfantastic experiences with the
border border force team, to beperfectly honest.
Honestly, they're great, I mean.
I mean, I think it's verydifficult for border force,
isn't it?
They're very under-resourced,like every other bit of anybody
involved in policingintellectual property crime, and
(10:13):
not a lot of containers areinspected when they move around
and they have to look for peoplein armaments and drugs before
they look for intellectualproperty infringing product.
But if you do go through theprocess by filling out the right
forms and making sure that yourproduct is on that list of
things that they need to lookout for, then you may be lucky
and they will find them, andthen you can have your products
seized and you can do somethingabout it.
(10:34):
So I think it's reallyimportant that it's free to do
and you can do the European one,and it translates it all into a
vast number of languages forevery European port, and it's
all free and it's just in yourbest interest if.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
How do they remember it all?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Well, I suppose the system, they have a system, so
it's a brilliantly organizedcomputerized system and I guess
when they have stuff coming inthey probably put the
description in and it might flagsomething up that would be in
it like a database.
So it'll be a really super,super efficient database, which
I haven't gone into the nittygritty of how it works.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
And in the UK there are agencies like the
Anti-Counterfeiting Group.
There are agencies like theanti-counterfeiting group, so
they'll run regular and theycall them ip road shows where
they invite members from borderforce to meet brands themselves
and they talk in person and theyrun them through examples of
real, real and fake and theyprovide them with fact sheets
and all sorts of helpful toolsand tips.
(11:29):
So the more, the more investedthe brand is in assisting them
with that information, the morelikely they're going to be to to
spot infringements when theyoccur.
And we can leave some links ifhelpful.
I don't know if you have uhnotes in the in the podcast on
the podcast, but we could putsome helpful links.
There's the um uk applicationfor action, the equivalent in
(11:52):
the eu, and then there's one forthe us as well was something
like top seat.
Speaker 5 (11:57):
Is that kind of eminently counterfeitable?
Was it in the sweet spot, as itwere?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
well, I'm afraid nowadays, everything's in the
sweet spot for beingcounterfeited.
It's a cloth product, it's afabric product, so really very,
very easy to copy.
But isn't everything now?
I mean everything fromtoothpaste to ball bearings.
You know, we see.
You know, we see it all thetime and absolutely every single
day.
I was just a bit taken abackthat you know something as well
as basic as a baby product wouldbe ripped off.
(12:22):
But we see it all the time withcrowdfunding products, people
have wonderful ideas and they goonline with them to crowdfund
and, sadly, frequently beforethe product gets to market, the
counterfeit gets to marketbecause they get masses of
traction online.
People think it's a great idea.
It is a really great idea, butcounterfeiters have
sophisticated and complexmanufacturing and supply and
(12:43):
distribution chains and they canbe very efficient.
Speaker 5 (12:46):
Quick legal question.
So when you pick up yourcounterfeiter, which rights are
you relying on?
Is it principally IP, or arethere other rights you can lean
on as well?
Speaker 1 (12:54):
We use IP rights, Jet .
Do you want to talk more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, so at Snapdragon , we're relying on intellectual
property rights.
So we use a notice and takedownsystems that are available to
report infringement, and we'rereporting infringement to the
platform or to whoever's hostingthe content.
So we're not liaising directlywith the sellers, we're not
getting into that kind of battle.
(13:18):
We're reporting the content tothe host.
So we're using all sorts ofintellectual property rights
trademarks, copyright, designs,patents but in the main, yeah,
intellectual property.
Sometimes there's theopportunity to liaise with the
platform if there's issuesaround safety, and then they
(13:38):
will potentially intervene, butit's quite difficult because
then you might have to provethat the product is unsafe, um,
so that might require sometesting.
So then, who takes on theexpense of doing that?
But, yeah, in general it'sintellectual property rights you
mentioned platforms there.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
I mean, is that, if you kind of nailed the major
online platforms, does that dealwith?
Is that kind of an 80 20 thingwhere you you get enough of it
to stop the problem?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
or I mean it's really about trying to address our
clients pain points.
So where are their biggest painpoints?
It might just be on keyplatforms that are competing
with their own sales.
It might be looking atwholesale marketplaces in order
to kind of deal with the problemat source and the hope that
there'll be a trickle-downeffect.
It might be that they want toshut down, clone fake websites
(14:27):
that have been set up to kind ofscam people out of their
personal contact details orfinancial details people out of
their personal contact detailsor financial details.
So it really depends on what'sthe biggest threat to the brand.
Is it financial, is itreputational?
If there's concerns around themanufacturing process, because
sometimes we might find thatcounterfeit products are
(14:47):
manufactured in some reallyunsavory conditions.
There might be child labor,slave labor, there might be
environmental pollution.
So then it becomes important tokind of locate the source of
the problem so that our clientscan go in with perhaps some
offline action in terms oflitigation or shutting down a
factory.
So it's really looking at wherethe biggest pain points are.
(15:10):
It's very difficult for a brandany brand of any size to
address all of these problems,so it's usually about
prioritizing their issues juston sorry, this I'm supposed to
be on the podcast.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
I'm really interested .
Um, in terms of the platforms,let's not name any names for
people who don't meet thefollowing criteria but typically
do you find that they're veryopen and ready to move and have
good systems in place to makesure that they can stop
counterfeiting?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Some better than others, without a doubt.
I won't name any names ofcompanies that aren't doing it
well, but some have put somereal effort and resources into
building user-friendly platforms.
They have teams of well-trainedpeople who understand
intellectual property issues andtake appropriate action.
(16:00):
I think it's difficult becausethey need to be aware of the
fact that sometimes the systemis also abused.
Some rights holders might beusing the system to shut down
competition, so we're oftenhaving to prove the infringement
.
So there's a lot of informationthat's required to prove the
(16:22):
infringement has taken place,that our clients are indeed the
owners of the intellectualproperty rights.
We have to be very mindful thatwe are making a correct
accusation.
In the UK we're all fearfulabout groundless threats, not so
much in other jurisdictions.
But it's really important touse these processes carefully
and properly.
(16:42):
But some are more user-friendlythan others.
Speaker 5 (16:45):
And the ones are pretty good.
You know it's a big resource.
This is again an interestingquestion why?
Why is it important to theplatforms?
They're losing sales questionwhy?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
why is it important to the platforms?
They're losing sales?
Yes, thankfully there there'slegislation that makes them take
action in most jurisdictions,so they don't think they have a
choice in the matter.
But also they want to be seento, you know, be selling
legitimate product.
It's important for them toattract um brands themselves,
(17:18):
and we've seen it with amazon,where some brands have
completely withdrawn from theplatform brands like birkenstock
because they um didn't feelthat perhaps amazon was taking
appropriate action to deal withissues around counterfeits.
So there can be repercussionsfor them um if they're seen to
not be doing the right thingmolly, should I keep rolling?
Speaker 4 (17:39):
are you done?
Are you done?
I'll keep going, keep going.
Then I've got questions.
I've got questions, but you'reon the roll, mate I'm on, I'm on
the roll.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I'm on the roll.
I'm gonna just go sideways fora minute and jet sorry but
dominating you for a minute.
But um, so that's the law sideof your study.
How does the terrorism come inuseful?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
I knew he'd go there well, unfortunately there there
are definitely connectionsbetween um, between
counterfeiting and terroristorganizations.
You know, often the the moneyinvolved in counterfeiting is
really being used for nefariouspurposes.
(18:16):
So you know, to go back to thepoint you made earlier, people
often trivialize the issue ofcounterfeiting but there are,
you know, pretty significantimpacts.
Speaker 5 (18:25):
This money is often used for lots of horrific
criminal activity, includingterrorism that's kind of one for
me, for a minute at least, isabout again a bit more
philosophical.
You're relying on ip lawsprincipally, um, you know your
trademarks and copyright,whatever it might be um to
(18:45):
invoke, and obviously customsthen steps up and does a great
job and it's full-oncounterfeiting and they can spot
it and everything.
But you're relying on laws thatI think the most recent one's
probably the trademarks act,which is about 1990, something,
um.
And then you've got copyright,designs, patents act, 1988, and
if you're on the patents actit's 1977.
They're quite old laws.
(19:06):
Do we need a rewrite?
Speaker 2 (19:08):
well, it's difficult because the legal framework has
just not caught up with what'shappening online at all, and
this isn't just aboutintellectual property.
It's happening in lots ofdifferent areas of law, um, and
I think you know, a really umgood example of that is around
(19:28):
deep, deep fake pornography.
It's absolutely horrific.
What's um permitted to happenonline aroundfake pornography
without any legal framework toreally do anything about it, and
it's changing, but it'schanging painfully slowly.
So, yes, I think we need arewrite of most laws when it
(19:48):
comes to the digital space.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Sorry, just to add my tuppence worth in there.
Even the systems, I mean thereasons that some of the
application processes are soslow, is because a patent
application used to go on a boatand it would go across the
Atlantic on a boat to be lookedat somewhere else, and so the
timeline was all about how longthe boat took to go across the
Atlantic and come back again.
I mean, maybe we do need anupdate on that kind of thing as
well.
(20:12):
Yeah, I mean maybe we do needan update on that kind of thing
as well.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
Yeah, we'll still work on that.
Yeah, I'm off by boat.
I'm good with that.
No, it's interesting, isn't it?
I think there's something.
I mean, I'm a patent attorney,that's my world, and there's
always conversations about the18-month publication period
that's how long it used to taketo publish things and the
one-year priority period that'show long it used to take to to
travel and everything, and the20-year patent duration.
(20:38):
That at some point was ageneration or something, I don't
even know.
But obviously all these thingsare now well out of date.
The problem, I guess, is that,certainly in an area where you
need international harmonization, you can't open any of these
cans of worms, because you opena conversation about one thing
and opens up a whole bunch ofaccess to medicine, arguments or
whatever these things.
So I guess politically it mightbe quite difficult to make
(20:59):
those changes.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, I think it is because you could make the
change in the UK, but actually,if the change was relevant
somewhere else in the world,then they might not have even
the telecommunications speed atwhich to comply with all of that
.
So, yeah, it's an internationalthing, isn't it?
It's not just about where weare.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
And when it comes to intellectual property, this is
so relevant because often IP isregistered from one jurisdiction
to the next, it's registereddifferently, whereas the global
nature of the internet justmeans that that jurisdictional
cutoff isn't necessarilyrelevant.
And it's a big problem, andwe're seeing more and more court
(21:40):
cases which have, you know,invited us to look at whether
this system still works or notand in terms of the work that we
do.
Some marketplaces, someplatforms, are considered
international, so the the likesof Alibaba or AliExpress.
It's possible on theseplatforms to enforce
(22:01):
intellectual property rightsthat aren't necessarily
registered in China, where theAlibaba group is based, despite
the fact that a lot of thesellers are going to also be
based in China.
But you can actually use yourintellectual property rights
that are registered in the UK,say, to have content removed
from those platforms, becausethe platform recognises that
(22:22):
actually a lot of their sellersare coming from all over the
world or their buyers are comingfrom all over the world.
Speaker 4 (22:29):
So are you done, willem?
Is that it?
Are you done for now, for aminute?
For a minute, okay.
Can I have a question or two?
Is that all right?
Get in?
So I think probably back torachel, for this one is first of
all, is top seat still a thing?
Speaker 1 (22:45):
is it still a product ?
Are you still selling it?
Just about, just about?
It's a very wee, it's a verywee business and it just sells
online.
But yes it, it ticks, it, ticksover, it ticks over.
It's still a fantastic product,to be perfectly honest.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So if you're traveling with a child, it's
what you need that's, but it'sbeen a long time, although I am
now traveling with grandchildren, so maybe I do need to oh well,
maybe that's what you need then.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Yes, six months to about 18 months we could have
done with something like thatnumber seven.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Grandchild is due in january, so I'll have a little.
I'll have a little look anotherone another one.
I know, gwilym, I know there'strouble having so many children.
Is that they multiply, then, bya factor, don't they?
The reason I asked Rachel isobviously there was a point in
time when you realized thatTotsie was not going to be the
future business for you, andSnapdragon, whatever it looked
(23:32):
like at the time, was.
Do you want to tell us how thatcame about?
When did you decide to growthis as a business?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Well, it's a really good question and it was really
thanks to the tot seat investorthat I was able to kind of what
I would term as pivot althoughit's quite a pivot going from
manufacturing a baby productinto deciding that you're going
to develop tech and scale a techbusiness when you're a
non-technical founder.
So I think it really came atthe point where I thought, well,
we've got rid of as many faketot seats online as we possibly
can.
And with Jet joining me, we hada little pact and we decided
(24:08):
that if we could find enoughpeople who would be encouraged
by our finding fakes for themonline and taking them offline,
so kind of demonstrating thatactually this was all a totally
manual process at this point,but we discovered there were
lots of people in the babyindustry that had fakes.
They just weren't talking aboutthem and I was like this is
nuts, these are products wheresomebody could get hurt.
Let's talk about this issue.
It's really important.
(24:29):
It's not a victimless crime.
Let's just do something aboutit.
So we did, and we gave ourselvesthree months and we identified
enough potential clients whowere happy with what we were
doing.
They were thrilled with what wedid and actually some of them
are still with us to that day.
And at that point I said right,well, I'm going to try and
develop.
Snapdragon went off and raisedjust about 4 million to do that
(24:51):
in terms of investment, equityinvestment, and built the team.
And well, had to build a techteam because, being
non-technical, no good at that.
And there we are, and so nowwe're a team of just under 30.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Wow, so just a small thing you said there.
You said we identify clients.
Do you identify clients byidentifying them as individual
brands, who, who might bevictims of counterfeiting?
Or do you find the counterfeitsfirst and then go to the brands
and say, look, this ishappening to you.
You might not know about it?
Speaker 1 (25:25):
well, in the in the very early days, because I was
immersed in the toy and babyindustry, which is, um, quite an
interesting place to be I wasjust so furious that there were
fakes of toy and baby productsthat I went to those brands and
said, look, you've got issues.
You know, let me help.
I totally get it.
I mean, I totally get the rageand I totally get all the issues
(25:45):
that might happen, you know, ifsomebody buys one of these
fakes Nowadays a little bit both, but most of our clients come
to us through word of mouth, tobe perfectly honest.
So you know, one can alwaysraise one's profile.
It's nice to raise one'sprofile, but most people come to
us through recommendation.
Speaker 4 (26:01):
Yeah, and without giving away any sort of like
operational secrets or tradesecrets, I guess you might
otherwise think of them.
How do you identifycounterfeiting?
How do you find these fakegoods that are appearing online?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, ok, so we have developed some proprietary
software which we call Swoop,and we're using a combination of
search terms, of search terms,and so we're using search terms
to go and identify infringingproducts.
(26:35):
So these will be products thatkind of best describe our
clients' products or brands andthen our software goes off and
finds those products on thevarious marketplaces, social
media sites, and then we'reusing AI capabilities to sift
through those hundreds ofthousands of results and make
sure that only the most relevantresults are brought to the fore
(26:56):
.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
That sounds really sophisticated.
How do the online platformsfeel about being swooped?
Speaker 2 (27:03):
That is a great question.
Some are fabulous and they willprovide us with an api to help
us I guess that's what I wasthinking.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Is that kind of the interoperability bit?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
isn't it is the key yeah, some do and some actively
try to block us from from doingthis.
So, yeah, you can't?
Speaker 4 (27:23):
you can't tell us which do what again?
No, no, that's a terriblyunfair question.
Gwilym is shaking his head atme now.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Can I say that eBay are great.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
You've identified the counterfeit, what's the first
action?
You have your client, thebusiness that's working with you
.
You talked earlier about kindof takedowns and stuff like that
.
I don't actually understand howthat works.
I guess is what I'm saying howdo you go about that initial
action of saying, hey, this iscounterfeit, it's wrong, it's
affecting your business, we needto do something about it?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, so we will talk them through various processes.
I mean, it's important toremember that we're not IP
lawyers, so we'll oftenrecommend that they go back and
speak to their legal counselwhether it's internal or
external about the best approach.
So it might be that, beforeanything happens, the most
(28:20):
sensible thing to do would be todo a test purchase so that
there's that physical evidencein hand and you can do really
thorough comparison between thereal product and the fake and
then decide what actions shouldbest follow on from there.
But sometimes the client justwants to have that product
(28:40):
removed from sales.
So then we would follow aprocess that's known as notice
and takedown, where we'reessentially notifying the
platform about our client'sintellectual property rights and
highlighting that there couldbe an overlap here between our
client's IP rights and theproducts that are being sold
online, and then the platformstake action on that basis to
(29:02):
remove the infringing content orperhaps remove the whole
listing, depending on the IPbeing infringed.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Got it.
So I think what I understandfrom that is that you're not
looking to take away from thecurrent existing legal support
systems that a client might havein place, be that patent
attorney, trademark attorney,solicitor, in-house legal
counsel, whatever that mightlook like.
You're adding value in terms ofproviding some really sort of
sensitive radar technology tofind out where things are
(29:31):
happening.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, absolutely
really really nice way to tosummarize it actually, and often
you should write our marketingblurbs.
Often are the lawyers that wework with are using our software
to really gather evidence aswell what is out there, what's
(29:52):
being sold.
So it's not necessarily aboutmoving as quickly as possible to
shut down those listings.
It can be an exercise ingathering intelligence so that
they can then decide what bestto do with that information.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So probably final question for me before I kick it
back to Gwilym, if he's got anymore to ask what next?
Where do you go with thebusiness next?
What other future things canyou maybe develop that will help
the legal system tacklecounterfeiting and fraud?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Well, you just have to be two steps ahead all the
time, because counterfeiters andfraudsters are cleverer and
cleverer by the minute.
The rise in fake domains thatwe saw over COVID has just been
extraordinary.
I mean we used to deal mainlywith products, but actually
increasingly since COVID we'veseen a lot of service firms
being ripped off domains, as Jetmentioned earlier on, and from
(30:41):
there invoices go out and peoplepay them and so actually that
becomes a massive issue aroundfinancial fraud and stuff.
So we have to continue to bevery wily on the ball, being
aware of what's out there fromNFT marketplaces and social
media and all the rest of it, sothat we can keep brands safe
wherever they are in the world.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I think up until now it's been relatively easy for us
to be able to detectinfringements, because
infringers are often, you know,a little bit lazy and they'll
leave some important element ofa product out that enables us to
detect real from fake.
But I think that that's goingto become more and more
(31:19):
difficult because noweverybody's using AI and it will
be really interesting to seehow that's being used to make it
more difficult to detectinfringements online.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
Oh great, Anything else you want?
Speaker 5 (31:34):
to ask.
Yeah, I was going to actuallyjust expand a bit on that
earlier reflection about how oldour laws are.
Just none of them built for thedigital space and actually just
taking that kind of one stepfurther, so they weren't just
not built for the digital space.
They also weren't built and Ithink, rachel, you touched on
this, they weren't built for out, kind of one step further, so
they weren't just not built forthe digital space.
They also weren't built and Ithink, rachel, you touched on
this, they weren't built for thekind of the international
nature, um, the cross-bordernature.
There's such a territorialelement to all the ip rights, so
(31:57):
there's, there's all theseproblems and, as we said, you
have to change that.
And in my world standards,essential patents has a
brilliant example where you'retrying to enforce patents in one
country against telecoms.
Basically it's a global product, it doesn't really exist in one
place and so people have tokind of fiddle around with the
law and make stuff up.
But by the same token, Isuppose the traditional legal
(32:20):
model it's still kind of verymuch grounded in the physical
world.
I'd say In terms of you know,we think about ourselves, we're
based in a country and we dealwith the laws of that country,
whereas what you're kind ofdoing is you're kind of
expanding that to almost adigital analogue.
Digital analogue Is that acomplete contradiction?
You know what I mean?
(32:41):
You're expanding it to kind ofa digital version of that, where
you're kind of an online lawlaw firm almost, or, sorry, a
takedown firm, a fight-fakesonline firm, sorry, I just
checked my notes.
Do you think the old model ofkind of having a physical
location and being a physicallybased and physically oriented
law firm may be something thatwe need to think about more
(33:02):
broadly?
Are you the first?
Speaker 1 (33:03):
No, we're definitely not the first in terms of what
we do and in fact, I work with alaw firm that I keep saying is
based in Glasgow, but in factthey're not based in Glasgow at
all.
There's seven or eight of themand they're all different parts
of the country and some of themare in Europe and they do a
great job.
So, and you know, they meet upthree or four times a year and I
would use them for anything atall in terms of corporate law,
(33:25):
ip, trademark registrations, allthe rest of it.
So they're a relatively smallfirm.
But I mean, I think from ourpoint of view, what matters to
us and why we love workingthrough and with IP experts and
law firms is that when you'reworking with a law firm doing
what we're doing, you get theopportunity to say you know, we
can see there's an issue in thePhilippines, could you do
something about filing sometrademarks there?
And that's really wonderful,because we don't do any filings
(33:52):
like that.
But we often identify that abrand that is trying to expand
its export markets has an issuesomewhere else, but it needs to
clear up that marketplace of thefakes before it really goes in
and makes an impact.
That's not really answeringyour question, but the
internationalism of it is.
I really believe passionatelyin the power of
internationalizing product andexport, so I feel very strongly
about that kind of thinginternationalizing product and
export.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So feel very strongly about that kind of thing and
actually there we're quite luckybecause there are conventions
that exist, like the, the brandconvention, to which most
countries in the world have, um,our signatory.
That means that we can enforcecopyright without registration
in most, most countries in theworld.
So that's really powerful tool,um.
And then I think, in terms ofintellectual property,
(34:30):
registered intellectual property, there's things like the Madrid
Protocol.
There are systems in placewhich mean that there's that
recognition that it's importantfor intellectual property to be
considered not just in onejurisdiction but across multiple
.
Speaker 5 (34:44):
I often think that international conventions were
kind of slipped in under theradar before ip became as big as
it is now.
I do wonder whether we'd everget another international burn
convention together or a newkind of international patent
system like the pct or evenmadrid, it's quite.
It's worrying me a little bitthat maybe that era of
international cooperation mightbe diminishing at the moment,
(35:06):
which is not what we need,obviously no, no, burn
convention's fantastic, though.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
Three cheers for whoever organized that political
hot potato thrown in at the endby william.
So one of my, one of my otherjobs on the podcast, other than
trying to summarize stuff andask interesting questions, is to
keep us to time.
Goingwen, and I'm consciousthat, um, we're, we're there,
we're there about.
We always like to ask ourguests whether there are any
(35:34):
questions that they haven't feelthat we've asked or they've not
answered.
So are you sat there thinking,ah, wish they'd asked us that
one any more of the story totell um, I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I think I would just say if anybody's taking a
product to market, please atleast register trademarks.
I believe passionately in thepower of a trademark.
I know this is a podcast forpatent people in the main and
also, if you're registering apatent and a design right hasn't
been considered, then designrights are incredibly powerful,
particularly online.
Jet's a bit of an expert ondesign rights.
(36:03):
I'm not, but that would be myparting comment.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Definitely take out the bit of me being an expert on
design rights.
I'm not, but um, that would bemy, my parting comment.
Definitely take out the bit ofme being an expert.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, you know more about them, more eloquently than
I do but design rights are verypowerful online, yeah,
particularly when you'redefending a product, because
sometimes if a patent if it'spage 32, paragraph 6 of a patent
that needs to be defended interms of an infringement, then
it may be that the person thatyou're liaising with doesn't
speak the language that thepatent was written in and it's
very difficult to explain that.
So a design right can be a mucheasier thing to use in defense
(36:34):
of a product.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that would also be myyeah, my parting comment would
be to really consider theimportance of registered designs
.
While not inexpensive, they aremuch more affordable than
patents.
There's also the advantage of agrace period.
In lots of jurisdictions,including the UK and the EU, the
(36:56):
speed of protection is, youknow, very quick in comparison
to other types of IP.
And I would say to reallyconsider, you know, getting
professional intellectualproperty advisors advice on this
.
There's lots of opportunitiesto have a free 30-minute
consultation with an IP lawyerand you know, beyond that, it
(37:18):
will be money well spent.
If done correctly, registereddesigns will stand you in good
stead.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
That's a really good point and one we don't touch on
on the podcast often enoughbecause quite often we don't
talk about all strands of IPsimultaneously as we've done
today.
So our members, sipa, weprovide introductory clinics, we
call them to the world of IP.
Those come on 45 minutes to anhour.
So exactly what you said there,jet.
That's an opportunity forsomeone who's perhaps new to the
(37:44):
world of IP just inventedsomething, just thought
something to come along.
No obligation, no risk ofdisclosure, no conflict, just an
opportunity to talk to aqualified attorney around sorts
of protections that might beavailable.
And it might be that thesethings aren't well enough known
and most of our firms, most ofour members who work in firms,
will do similar consultationsthrough the firm.
(38:06):
So the way into ip doesn'tnecessarily have to be
particularly onerous orexpensive and I think you're
right.
People need to consider it assoon as possible yeah,
definitely that's a great littleone.
That's a great little way to endthe podcast, but we're not
ending the podcast there becauseyou two don't know this.
William knows only too well.
I have another little job andthat's to.
While we're talking, sit herethinking about an ingenious,
(38:28):
clever question to finish, withwhich I'm going to throw at
Gwilym first, but then it'llcome to you two and then he'll
very cleverly turn it back on me.
So, gwilym, we've been talkinga lot about online platforms for
buying stuff.
I think we all know we'retalking kind of like our Amazons
and Ebays and those kinds ofplaces.
What's the most unexpectedlyuseful or disappointingly not
(38:52):
fit for purpose or just joyousthing you've ever bought from an
online platform?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
That's exciting.
Oh, it's a bass guitar.
It's a bass guitar.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
No, you can't go for a bass guitar.
Speaker 5 (39:04):
Why can't I go for a bass guitar?
It was joyous.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
You said joyous yeah, but that did exactly what you
were expecting it to do, surely?
Speaker 5 (39:13):
no, because it made me sound like I could play the
bass.
It was brilliant beautiful pieceof kit, um, and I made a lovely
noise.
No it, it was joyous.
I bought some kind of strangegadgets oh, avocado, avocado
stoners and peelers, you knowthose funny shaped things.
(39:33):
That was a big lockdown for me.
I did a lot of avocado that wasremarkably versatile Within the
avocado kind of you know,sphere.
It wasn't really a sphere.
Oh God, right, there you go.
Sphere.
It wasn't really a sphere.
Oh God, right, there you go.
I feel like I've nailed thatone.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
Which of our two victims, I guess, should I go to
Rachel?
How about you?
Speaker 1 (39:56):
So I have bought a joyous product this year online
which has transformed my lifeand my wardrobe, and it's a wee
hoover for jumpers that takesaway all the little bobbly bits
and I can't tell you how much.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
I love it, I'm gonna debubbler.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
It's called a debubbler a debubbler,
absolutely marvelous, and it hascompletely transformed my
wardrobe and it's about totransform everybody's Christmas.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
I can't recommend it highly enough, honestly go on
then Jet, you can't do, can't doa deep bubbler obviously no, no
, but I I'm with you on that one, rachel.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Everything I mean I I buy everything from second hand
online marketplaces and youknow, sometimes you do have to
still be careful about issueswith counterfeits or fakes.
But if you're carefulespecially if you're avoiding
certain brands you can.
You can completely avoid buyingnew by using the likes of ebay
(40:53):
or vintage, which is reallygreat.
Not only you're getting a goodbargain, but you're you're doing
your bit for the environment.
But we have also seen examplesof absolutely horrific things
online, um.
So yeah, these are the oppositeof what you're asking, so not
joyous at all, but yeah, youmentioned some horrific examples
(41:14):
at the beginning of the podcast, but we've also seen
counterfeit life jackets forchildren, so there are some
pretty horrible things out thereso we're finished, so we're
finished no, we're not.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
You know what you've got to do.
Lee, lee out of interest.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
I'm usually this time I didn't have an answer in
advance.
I've had to sit here thinkingabout it and I bought probably
five or six years ago in amoment of boredom.
I like tools, rachel, jet.
I'm a kind of I'm a plumber bytrade in the dark, distant past
and I've never really escapedthat sort of practical desire to
do stuff.
Speaker 5 (41:49):
He's also not mentioned it on the podcast.
So, Lee, that was brilliantbecause we nearly made it.
Speaker 4 (41:58):
I never knew whether it would work or not, but it's.
You know, socket sets that youmight use in cars and stuff like
loosening nuts and so on.
So I bought this very largesocket and inside it's just got
lots of pins so it fits almostanything.
You know, it'll fit aconventional nut, or if you're
trying to put one of those likehooks and eyes into a wall,
that'll kind of a slot aroundthat.
(42:19):
Or if there's something a bitodd like a half broken screw or
something, it'll fit around that.
It's been a game changer for me.
It's pretty much my go-to tool.
First and it was like 10 quidon amazon or something like that
absolutely transformed my lifeyou can get those if you're
arthritic for turning taps,can't you?
Speaker 2 (42:39):
yes, yeah, yeah yeah, my, my dad is a plumber and he
always tells the story that I'venever actually checked to see
if it's true, but he said that aplumber had the idea to put two
handles on a children's sippycup.
So yeah, he always uses that asan example of why plumbers are
brilliant.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
No, no idea, Possibly , possibly.
Thank you both for coming onand telling the Snapdragon story
, which is obviously yourstories.
Thank you, gwilym, for being agenial host once more, and
probably should end the podcastjust by saying to people if
they've listened to this podcastand found it interesting and
engaging and why wouldn't you,it was a great story then give
(43:19):
us a little recommendation orleave us a comment and then
that'll help other people find apodcast.
That's it, we're done.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Thank you so much.
It's been an absolute privilegeto take part and lovely to meet
you both, so thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, outro Music.
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