November 8, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode of Two IPs in a Pod, Lee and Gwilym chat with Annemarie Parsons and Vicky Maynard about CIPA’s Introductory and Advanced Paralegals training courses.
After discussing how the IP Paralegal profession has developed over the years they dive into the structure, benefits, and objectives of each course, explaining how they help paralegals develop key skills and deepen their understanding of the IP profession.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello Gwynam, how are ?
You mate.
Oh Lee, it's great to see you,so chipper I know, yeah, I feel
really on fire this week.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I've had a really good couple of weeks and I think
I'm carrying that enthusiasmthrough with me.
I'm off the back of SuperCongress, big seller at Super
Congress up in Edinburgh, whichwas amazing, probably one of my
12th Congress and I think it'scertainly the best one I've been
to.
Single topic UPC, which withsome really high level speakers,
(00:37):
upc judges, the chair of the UPadmin committee and some high
powered users at UPC, so yeah,so it's quite great content
there.
And then last week was the IPParalegal Conference, which is
nice and timely because we'll betalking IP paralegal stuff
today, um, nice and timelybecause we'll be talking ip
paralegal stuff today in um.
We were in birmingham and um,it's a different crowd, so got a
very different feel to it.
They the younger, moreenthusiastic, for a good time, I
would say, and um, and I'll tryand tailor my performance
accordingly see a lesser manwould be tired and jaded from
(01:01):
all that.
But that's not no, you just keepgoing you're buoyed by the
experience I saw.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I saw the footage of you dancing on at congress to
whatever the old theme tuners soI did.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I did franz ferderland take me out on that
congress and I did elo mr bluesky in um at the ip paralegal
conference I saw the mr blue sky, good entrance, great entrance,
except um and I'll test thisand maybe listeners to the
podcast could let me know.
My wife's probably got to stopit because I look too much like
David Brennan.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I think all nobody here.
There's a couple of peoplewatching in here.
Everyone's just horrified.
Look, look at the horror ontheir faces.
They're not laughing theirheads off at the astonishing
accuracy of that comment.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Comment no I'd hate to be some sort of cheap ricky
gervais um cover act I think youshould make some good money
from that nice little sideline.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So what you've?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
been up to anything exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Um, I've just been raffling around I'm.
I told you I'm going on holiday.
Actually, you're gonna have aproper break, aren't you?
That's exciting.
I'm really excited about that.
So I'm kind of just to get myhead around, not reading emails
all day, which I'm quite excitedabout.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Make sure you do that as well.
You've got to promise me thatyou will actually down tools
properly.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I will, I will, I will.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I'll be doing my mankini, not reading emails,
that's yeah probably slightlytoo much information, but I
can't get that image out of myhead now.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I've got David Brent in mind, so right back at you.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Should we get the guests on?
Yeah, well, I guess we shoulddo in order of superiority,
seniority.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Neither, neither.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
The grief alphabetical alphabetical.
Well, alphabetical, it stilltakes me in the way of chair of
the IP Paralegal Committee.
First was what I was going tosay.
So, Anne-Marie Parsons, hello,how are you?
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Hi Lee, I'm all right , thank you.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
They have not seen you since a very messy curry
last Thursday.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
Yes, it was a very delicious curry, though.
It was nice, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, did they find the best place to go to in
Birmingham or what.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Yeah, it was delicious.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Hey, gwyneth, I remember a haunt that I last
went to about 15 years ago andwhat are the chances it was
still there?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Oh, fantastic.
Is it a balty, a big balty inthe Midlands, isn't it Balty?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
curries, yeah, lots of curries.
So it's a place called Bargy,which is just near the
conference centre, and, yeah, soI used to use it regularly when
I used to speak at FEconferences, because they were
always in Birmingham and we werelooking for somewhere to go and
I said, oh, we should, weshould try and find this place,
bargy, just around the corner.
Still, there looks exactly thesame.
Pretty sure they recognize mewhen I walked in.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Oh, I'm not buying this.
What music did you play to walkinto the curry house?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't know what kind of music at every venue I
go to.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
So, Anne-Marie that was rude.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
We interrupted you in your introduction.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
So tell us all about yourself.
Okay, no problem.
Well, as you know, lee, I am asenior paralegal working at
Murgatroyd and I've been aparalegal for oh too long than I
care to mention, to be honestand day to day.
I am a senior paralegal.
(04:25):
I still have a paralegal role,but in addition I am in charge
of the training for patentparalegals at Murgatroyd.
I help with their careerprogression.
Um and um, as you say, I workvery closely with the Chartered
Institute of Patent Attorneysbecause I am on the um, I'm the
(04:45):
chair of the IP ParalegalCommittee and I also sit on
council.
I'm also um an examiner for theuh introductory course as well
how do you find time to do anylike proper?
Work, you must be exhaustedwell, I have moments when I get
a bit of paralegal work done solet's, let's introduce your,
(05:07):
your partner on the podcast,vicky Maynard.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Vicky, you've been around the IP paralegal and
previously patent admin stufffor for a long time as well,
haven't you?
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I have um not quite as long as Anne-Marie.
She was definitely there beforeI started.
She was one of the um, one ofthe paralegals that taught me
how to do my job.
Yeah, yeah, all those many,many years ago.
I think it's 21 years ago now.
That's really scary.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, what is your job?
Because you've had a recentchange, haven't you?
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I have.
Like Anne-Marie, I still workas a patent paralegal.
I still do a lot of work ofthat, but I am the IP process
manager at D Young Co.
So I sort of look after all ofthe systems, doing all the
(05:56):
future, looking to see what'scoming up, what's going to
impact, trying to make sure thateverybody's got all of the
training that they need inrelation to all the different
systems that we use.
Yeah, so pretty much all roundon everything with that, with
all of our systems, all of theprocesses.
Then on top of that I'm thevice chair of the admin
committee and then I used to bethe lead course tutor for the
(06:20):
introductory patent certificate.
Stepped away from that justover a year ago yeah, nearly two
years now, but I did thatbecause I think it needed to
concentrate a little bit more onthe incoming advanced patent
paralegal course.
And in amongst on top of that Ialso do I'm one of the lovely
hated people that do thequestions for the Europeanan
(06:43):
patent administratorcertification.
So I sit on the board at theepo um dealing with those
questions and my claim to famefor that is I am the only uk
paralegal involved in thatthat's quite.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
That's quite a claim to fame, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
well, it keeps me up message for a little while
anyway, after saying and itclearly, clearly keeps you,
keeps you busy um so whereshould we start?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
should we start?
Should we start a little bitwith just the work of the
committee?
How many of you are on thecommittee?
Speaker 5 (07:09):
there are 15 of us.
That includes uh, we have tohave a patent attorney on our
committee and we have anotherco-opted person, so 13 actual
paralegals from both industryand in-house on our committee.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's really cool, isn't it?
So it doesn't sound like you'relacking in voluntary enthusiasm
in that sense.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Oh no, absolutely not , and we found that out when we
were at the IP ParalegalConference last week because we
had so many people asking us howthey could get involved with
committee and who really seemedextra keen to get involved with
committee.
Um, that that's, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It's just great that people do want to get involved
and I always think back to thetime when we made the decision
to um to sort of formalize theip paralegal profession, um, to
create it as a committee ofcouncil and to open up
membership.
So we, so we did that throughI'm gonna be a little bit sort
of governance geeky here,william, so apologies um, we did
(08:10):
that through the 2018 review ofthe bylaws, which meant that
came in in 2019, so just fiveyears ago, yeah, and we counted
at that time and we had inassociate membership, we had
about 40 I think it was 42 or 43patent administrators or ibO
illegals or people with a titlethat generally sort of slotted
in to what we were trying to do.
And I've just checked We've got642 at the moment.
(08:31):
So in five years, we've gonefrom low 40s to mid 600s and
growing year on year.
That's really good, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
That's impressive.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Are you finding that the employers are supportive of
kind of helping you guys outworking on the committee and
everything?
Is it popular?
Speaker 4 (08:50):
A little bit of a mix .
Okay, on the whole, I think alot of the attorneys know that
the work that the administrationcommittee are doing and being
involved under CEPA, and so allof the extra guidance and
everything else they get fromthat, is a positive.
(09:10):
I still think it needs to getpushed by firms a little bit
more.
If I'm honest, as to what thebenefits are for paralegals to
be members of SEPA, don't knowwhat you think, anne-marie.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Yeah, I mean my company obviously 100% behind me
.
Being a member of SEPA andbeing a member of the committee
as well, they're more than happyto support me and my colleagues
.
I think that, like you say,we're seeing, you know, the
uptake of membership increasingyear on year, and I think that
that's a really good sign toshow that employers really are
(09:47):
getting the message that supermembership is great for their
paralegals.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
um, so, hopefully, those companies that are backing
their paralegals are leading byexample and that the other
firms will follow what sort ofbenefits are there of being um
one, uh paralegal member of SEPAand two more widely involved in
the work that you guys do?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
well, obviously the main thing is is the education
side.
Um, if you're a member aparalegal member of SEPA, then
there are web webinars galorefor you to continue your
professional competence, and Ithink that that's probably for
most people.
What they use their membershipfor is to be able to access that
(10:31):
.
The webinars are all free ofcharge for SIPA members.
But I guess also there's thejournal, and we very recently
started a paralegal section inthe journal and we've had
feedback that the paralegals arefinding that really interesting
.
There's also a newsletter thatcomes out quarterly and I'm not
(10:52):
sure whether paralegals knowthis, but they're actually
invited to the um SIPA drinksevents that go on um for
networking, um, and thenobviously we have our paralegal
conference.
That's just happened andmembers can get an early bird
ticket for that so they can savethemselves or their employers
(11:12):
quite a decent amount of moneyon the entrance.
And again, that's another greatplace for learning and
networking.
Have I missed anything else?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
You've sold it to me, Anne-Marie.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It sounds like a good thing.
Excellent, I'll wait for mycommission then.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
So let's should we look a little bit in, a little
bit more detail at um sort ofspecific areas I know you're
keen to talk about on thepodcast.
So largely that's training andeducation.
Yeah, yeah, and most, mostpeople, as I understand it
correct me if I'm wrong, becausethis is just sort of my um very
simplistic perspective Mostpeople probably come into the
world of IP paralegal or somekind of administrative support
(11:53):
role in an IP firm notnecessarily thinking about it as
a career.
It's a sort of anadministrative move.
Absolutely.
So they wouldn't have beenexposed to any training
necessarily before they start,absolutely so they wouldn't have
been exposed to any trainingnecessarily before they start.
And so what do we?
What can we offer people whoare sort of new in that area of
work to help them understandtheir world?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
It's a good question, nick, because we've got a few
things that we've we've got inplay new in post.
Obviously you've got all of theinternal training that's going
to happen or should happenwithin the firm from your peers
and in-house trainers etc.
And after you've got someexperience, there is the SEPA
(12:40):
introductory patent paralegalcourse, which is available.
Introductory patent paralegalcourse, which is available,
which is now pretty muchrecognized as an industry
professional qualification,because for finding you look at
any job adverts now for patentparalegals or patent secretaries
and they're all asking forpeople who have had this course
(13:04):
and have got it underneath theirbelt.
And the course basically issplit down into multiple parts.
So it's covering GB patentapplications, european PCTs and
a little bit on designs and yousit an examination at the end of
(13:25):
that and one of the beauties ofdoing that qualification and
passing is the fact that bydefault you also get membership
for the remainder of that yearas a SIPA paralegal member.
So the introductory course isin place.
(13:45):
I think it's not going to bethat long before they're sitting
the next round of examinations,because I know at the moment
we're in the middle of all ofthe webinars that are in place
for the different sections, andso everybody's doing all of
their studying using the newsoftware that's been introduced
(14:05):
by SIPA, new learning platformcalled Pebblepad, which is, I've
got to say, I find absolutelybrilliant.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's actually really good.
Yeah, I love Pebblepad.
I'm a big Pebblepad fan.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, just the way that you're able to interact,
both if you're a mentor or astudent, the way that you're
able to interact with each otherand literally review what point
you're going or you've got toall the way through your
training, and the way that youcan access the materials, the
webinars, all of this sort ofthing is fantastic.
Platform and yeah, so that'snew for the introductory course
(14:44):
this year is the um, the pebblepad bit and the feedback that
we've had so far.
Correct me if I'm wrong, emoryit's actually been really
positive um, so we're lookingforward to seeing how well that
keeps developing year on yearwith the introductory course
that's really good.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That's good to hear that, because I know I mean some
people may have come across itif they've had any time in
universities, but it's quiteunusual to be being used in a
professional body context.
So we're quite pleased andproud to have it on board.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
Yeah, and I know that it's been well received in our
company.
As vicky said, the interactionthat can can happen now between
the student and the mentor is alot easier.
It's also pretty much easier tonavigate your way through all
of the modules and find awebinar that you're after or
find the, you know, the, thewritten script that you're after
(15:39):
.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So, yeah, it's just a little bit more user-friendly.
Do you reckon we can ever bebrave enough to let the
attorneys on it?
Speaker 5 (15:47):
I don't think they could break it, it's quite easy.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
We'll probably break it.
You've seen us, you know.
You know.
Any of you ever introduce a newrecord system into your firm,
you'll know what we can do.
What we'll do first of all iswe'll change it into what we
used to do anyway.
What we can do, what we'll dofirst of all, is yeah, we'll
change it into what we used todo anyway.
That's the first thing we'll do.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Somehow we'll find a way why do you think we limit
the access that you can have onthese systems?
Speaker 5 (16:17):
also, there's no deadlines involved on pebble pad
, so you should be pretty safewell, we'll never do anything
then that's it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes, so that's so.
That's the introductory course,been established for a long,
long time now in various guises,and I think you're all quite
happy with how that works.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yeah, yeah it's basically there to give new
paralegals the foundations ofwhat they need to be able to do
their job and assist thefoundations of what they need to
be able to do their job andassist the people they work with
and the patent attorneys asmuch as they can.
So dealing with filingformalities, basic search and
examination procedures, butliterally from the start of when
(16:57):
somebody comes in the door andsays I've got this invention can
, what can I do with it?
All the way through to it beinggranted and you having that
lovely patent certificate at thethrough to it being granted and
you having that lovely patentcertificate at the end of it do
you?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
do you think that there's a sort of a period of
time qualifying period, call itwhat you will that people should
do before they start the course?
Do you need to get a little bitof experience under your belt
first, or could you just comestraight into it?
Speaker 5 (17:19):
no, you definitely need some experience.
Yeah, I think, uh, wedefinitely recognize at least 18
months where I'm working, andsometimes it can be more with.
Generally, 18 months is apretty bare minimum.
Um, because it's quite a lot ofinformation to have to learn
(17:42):
the introductory course, theexam for it is.
Also, it's a closed book exam,so you have to know the answers.
You can't.
You know, a lot of patent examsare open books, so you've got
all your paperwork and rules andregulations that you can refer
back to get the answer.
But the introductory coursedoes rely on people having a
(18:02):
knowledge of the procedures andthe formalities.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So, um, you definitely need to know your
stuff for it, or at least yourbasic stuff anyway yeah, and I
think that's also part of thereason why we encourage people,
when they do the course, to havea mentor.
Um, otherwise they've got us.
They've literally then got apoint of contact they can go to
if there's something that theycome across or it's like I'm
(18:29):
really not quite sure on this.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So at least they've got support from their mentors
is that someone they find intheir firm, or could it be
someone from um outside the firm?
How does the mentoring thingwork?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
work, the mentors usually are people within their
own firm.
Yeah, um, so it could beanother.
It could be a senior paralegal,it could be another paralegal
who's previously done the course, or it could even be a patent
attorney.
Um, yeah, it could be a widerange.
(19:01):
There's nothing in place at themoment in relation to being
able to mentor outside of yourown firm at the moment, but, as
it stands at the moment, itusually is somebody that's
internal, that has moreexperience and can guide you
through all of the differentmodules of the course.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I was going to ask sorry, I was going to ask what
do we do before all this?
Because you know, back in theday you've got your records
department and without thestructure and kind of
qualifications or SEPAmembership, how did people used
to do this?
Because there was quite a lotto learn.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Oh, trust me, the course is smaller now than it
used to be.
Trust me, the course is smallernow than it used to be.
Yeah, yeah, the, the iterationof the course as it stands now
is half the volume of what theprevious patent sorry, patent
paralegals course used to be.
Um, so there used to be a muchbigger course, which took it's
(20:03):
about half a year, wasn't it,anne-marie?
To do, where we had to travelup to London every Thursday I
think it was either in themorning or the afternoon and sit
in SIPA headquarters and doyour lectures and your work and
at the end of it sit a massiveexam in a nice big drafty hall.
And the introductory course wasput in place to, as I said,
(20:30):
give people more of a, aninitial understanding, um, of
the filing formalities, um, the,the basics really, of the
building blocks of what theywill continue to learn on as
they go through their professionokay.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So you got, you broke it up as well, into a
foundation and then you take iton and you learn.
But before that, I mean, I'mpretty sure there weren't any
paralegal kind of well.
The word didn't exist at onepoint.
And back in, I think in the 90s, when I was kicking off, I
don't recall there being anyparticular formal training at
all.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
I don't know how it used to work.
It's bizarre, isn't it?
I think we used to be calledpatent administrators.
We've moved away from that tothe role paralegal, and I think
that the use of the wordadministrator is probably where
it came from.
Is there was probably anadministrator who saw that their
attorney had done the sameletter for a client three times
and said, hey, I could do thatfor you.
And the attorney thought, great, that would be fantastic if you
could do that for me.
It's really basic, it's just aformality.
(21:33):
And then gradually, I think thenyou know, those administrators
gradually took on more workbecause there were there are
formalities that are straightforward, that are set, that have
set deadlines.
There's no technical expertiseneeded, you just need to have an
understanding of the law andthe rules relating to those
(21:55):
formalities.
And they were things that theadministrator could take on away
from the attorney to free upthe attorney's time.
And then, gradually, I think,firms have realised that there
was value to their firm by aparalegal taking on that role
and freeing up the attorney'stime to do chargeable work.
And then gradually, it's turnedinto a profession and there was
(22:21):
the original group ofparalegals I suppose you could
call them, which was known asIPAG or the Intellectual
Property Administrators Group,and they kind of started off the
process of forming a groupwhere people could query about
being a paralegal if they werein a firm, started looking at
(22:44):
what courses were available forparalegals and if there weren't
any, they could set them up.
And they actually then, withSEPA, set up the um, the old
iteration of the exam, which wasthe um yeah, the IPAC, the
intellectual propertyadministrator's certificate,
(23:04):
yeah, and that was the coursethat I originally did um.
But there came a point where, um, it was decided that it was
quite a big course to manage andthat people were actually
getting more benefit out oflearning the basics, so that, as
V said, they kind of split thatcourse into two and we have the
(23:51):
intellectual propertyadministrators certificate,
which is basically what wastaken out of the original
iteration of the court, plussome.
So there's something for eventhose people that did the
original course.
There's more learning for them.
And well, I guess that's movingon quite nicely, isn't it into
the fact that behind the scenesthere's been a lot of
squirreling getting umsyllabuses ready, getting um
(24:14):
webinars ready, getting umslides ready for the webinars,
um, getting guidelines in placeall the um logistics as well
regarding you know how you canexamine it and everything.
All of that has been going onin the background and the
advanced patent paralegal courseis going live in the new year
(24:39):
with a view to the studying forthe qualification beginning in
April 2025.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
studying for the qualification beginning in April
2025.
That's exciting.
And how so, comparatively, howlong does each course run?
I think you may have said onthe introduction I really can't
remember.
So how long is the introduction, how long is the advanced?
Speaker 5 (24:57):
The introductory is the students will start their
webinars and associatedcoursework in September.
Then they have, they do thethree main modules and they do a
little bit on designs and theyhave a mock examination in
December and they have theirfinal examination in the January
(25:19):
so it's yeah, it is prettysnappy.
The advanced course is obviouslydealing with a lot more
advanced stuff, so it's going totake longer and the advanced
course will run from April untilthe December, so pretty much
three quarters of a year.
It will have four core modules.
(25:43):
There'll be a module onEuropean patents, uk patents and
PCT patents and then there willbe another module on ethics.
Three of the modules will beexamined, but they're not
examined how we currently markthe introductory course.
So this is again.
(26:04):
There's another move away fromhow things are with the
introductory course, in that thecandidates will be given an
assessment for each of themodules and they will have a
certain amount of time to goaway and do the assessment.
We are thinking that's about amonth, a month, um, and then um.
(26:29):
The assessments are markedseparately from each other, so
there's not one final exam.
There's three assessments thatgo towards the qualification so
I'm interested.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
The ethics module is an interesting one.
That's not always.
That's not one that has reallycrept into the patent attorney
side, funny enough.
So what?
What happens in that bit waswhat are the?
What's the focus of that module?
Speaker 4 (26:55):
I think it's making sure that there is a really
concrete understanding aboutwhat our work performance, the
way that we deal with the patentattorneys, the way that we deal
with the patent attorneys, theway that we deal with the
records, that we look after allof these sorts of things, having
a really good understanding ofthe professionalism that's
needed behind it, but also thefact that if you do something
(27:18):
wrong, what the repercussionsare, not just for the firm that
you're working for, but for theclient that you're working for
as well.
So and getting an understandinghow it all ties in in relation
to our regulatory body, ipreg.
So they've got a bit more of anunderstanding of what it is
(27:42):
that IPREG do and what therequirements are on the firm.
It is that IPRIG do and whatthe requirements are on the firm
.
So it's giving them.
It's giving them more of a highlevel understanding of why we
do things we do in the way thatwe do it and the the reasoning
and judgment behind it.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I love that.
I think I mean, anne-marie, youmentioned the word
professionalization and that isso central to it.
I think up.
I mean, anne-marie, youmentioned the word
professionalisation and that isso central to it.
I think upskilling my motherwould shout at me for saying
upskilling she goes not a properword.
But this is all aboutupskilling though.
Generally isn't it?
It really is moving theparalegal you know dealing with
the client, understanding theclient needs and everything, and
(28:23):
I think it's a really good kindof response to a lot of
computerization, a lot of theold basic tasks.
Machines are doing them now.
But as usual we find that aresponse to that is to actually
just get better the stuff thatwe really need to do, and I
think the growth of theorganization suggests everybody
was just waiting for this tohappen really yeah, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
and the amount of questions that we've received
from people that have done boththe old course and the
introductory patent can't stressenough the amount of work and
the commitment of differentpeople for getting all of this
(29:12):
material together, because it'sa huge amount of work, as you
can imagine, because it's threequarters of a year's worth of
work, and that's before we evenstart looking at dealing with
the assessments that have to getsubmitted back and marking
those.
So we can't say thank youenough to everybody that's been
(29:33):
involved with getting this tothe point where we are now.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Yeah, I completely agree, Vicky.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It's lovely to see.
Are we kind of leading the wayin Europe?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah for an all-round course for an all-round paral,
an all round paralegal?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I think we are.
I think we're quite unique inthe fact that we cover so many
different aspects and not onlyhave we got an introductory
course, we've now got anadvanced course coming in as
well, and I think the fact thatwe're able to sit under SIPA is
(30:06):
huge.
It's showing that there's moreof an appreciation and
recognition of the work that wedo as a profession.
Our almost our entire workinglife has been trying to promote
(30:31):
making sure people paralegalshave as much training as they
need for their role.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, I think it's always been a role, that um, it
was a bit in the shadows,sometimes back again, going back
a little bit, um, but everybodyknew that when you didn't know
actually what you were doing,you just go and ask the
paralegals and they sort you out.
We all know they really.
We just didn't admit it.
I had that with the other.
We had a oh, you know das dascodes and all that priority
document stuff.
Oh yeah, um, the white, whiteperson having issue if you come
(30:55):
across.
So I knew it was a problem, butyou know why.
So it's very helpful.
Of andy simpson I'm going tomention andy simpson name check
for andy um right up at the topof our paralegal group, who
basically told me why it wasimportant.
Thanks, andy, I had no clue.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
We do have our little bits of knowledge here, there
and everywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Oh no, it's unbelievable.
It is unbelievable and, yeah, Iwas truly humbled, correctly
humbled as well.
Actually, I think that's whatDAS stands for.
Let's face it.
Don't tell me, I'll look it up,I'll find out.
We're going to find out andtalking about kind of the
internationalisation.
So the EPO, I gather, is up tosomething.
(31:36):
Are we involved in that?
Are we connected?
How's it going?
Speaker 5 (31:39):
So if I start by saying there is now there is
it's been around for about five,six years the European Platform
of Intellectual PropertyAdministrators, the same as SIPA
(32:02):
are doing in the UK but on aEuropean level to basically
promote the profession of beinga paralegal.
And part of APIPA's work isworking with the EPO and working
with WIPO to to look at theirprocesses, whether they work for
(32:29):
paralegals as well as firms.
But also one of the things hasbeen being involved with the
European certification, which isalso known as the EPAC, and
Vicky can tell you more aboutthat because she is highly
involved with the EPAC with theEPAC, yep, yep, um, the EPAC, or
(32:59):
European Patent AdministratorCertification is just just had
its exam the other week, and sothat was the end, effectively
the end of year three, of thiscertification.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Now, and I must say I have to say it's a
certification and not aqualification.
So please do correct me if Isay qualification, because I'll
get shouted at by the.
EPO and the idea there is tryingto upskill patent
administrators who deal withEuropean work to a high level,
(33:37):
european work to a high level,and it deals with some complex
issues with working with the EPO, whether it not it be with them
as something that's being doneas a European patent application
or if it's something that'sbeing done as a PCT application,
but using the EPO to basicallyget the documents in the first
place.
So anything EPO related iswhere you're going to get the
(34:01):
basis for the syllabus for this.
I can't even say it's a newcertification anymore, because
it's three years anymore,because it's three years.
Um, and the syllabus is huge,as you can imagine.
It covers absolutely everythingthat you could come across.
Um, there is a board of us umwhich consists of members of the
(34:24):
EPO, members of the EPI and,for my sins, I can't actually
remember what EPI stands for.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Is it the European Patent Institute?
Speaker 4 (34:34):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That's the first thing I've known through this
entire podcast.
I'm so proud of myself.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
So, yeah, it has members from the EPI as well,
and then it also has a broadspectrum of patent paralegals
involved in there as well.
And ultimately I've beenresponsible for designing the
syllabus.
The EPO themselves havedesigned all of the training
(35:05):
materials that go alongside it,which has been drawn up and is
delivered by the EPO Academy andthe questions.
As I said at the beginning isbasically partly my fault, along
with the other board members.
So we literally meet at thebeginning of the year to set all
(35:27):
of the questions for the exam,which consists of this year
there were 15 1-5 multiplechoice questions, followed by
six open questions where youwere basically given a scenario
and then asked some questions onit.
Um, so it's, there's a lot to it.
(35:49):
The expectation of the EPO andof a lot of patent attorneys who
have been involved with thecourse has said they want their
paralegals If they pass thiscertification.
It's a certification from theEPO, so they want to make sure
that the standards are high,hence the difficulty of the
(36:13):
course.
But I think, anne-marie, yousat at the first year, so I
think you can comment on thematerials, the syllabus and the
exam.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Well, I mean, basically, as you say, it covers
an absolutely huge amount.
The good thing is that it is anopen book exam, so you have got
the ability to access anydocumentation that you need.
Having said that, you do needto have a high level
understanding to be able to knowwhere to go to look for the
(36:50):
information.
Um, and the questions arepitched pretty much at attorney
level of formalities.
So all of the quirky thingsthat can happen, um, that you're
more likely to come intocontact with if you're more
advanced in your in yourprofession, um, and yeah, I mean
(37:15):
I have to say I've been aparalegal for a long time and I
found it very difficult, um, butI did pass it, which is good
for you um so, yes, I was one ofthe first uh europeanegals, so
that's quite a nice little thingto have under my belt, and
(37:35):
we're hoping that the advancedexam or the advanced
qualification that SEPA aregoing to be providing is going
to have very similar high levelknowledge.
Again, it's about when you're asenior paralegal not necessarily
knowing everything on asyllabus, but knowing where to
(37:56):
go and find that information,which I think is you know.
It mimics what happens ineveryday senior paralegal
working life is, if you comeacross a problem, you may not
necessarily know straight awaywhat to do with it, but you know
where to find the information.
And the EPAC looks at that andthe advanced course that SIPA
(38:19):
will be offering will also belooking for that level of
knowledge.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
But obviously the biggest difference between the
two, the European course, or theEuropean certification, is
focused purely on Europeanprocedural acts, whereas the
advanced course that will bebeing done through SEPA covers
GB PCT, regardless of whereyou're filing it.
(38:47):
And which one did I forget,emery EP?
Thank you, ep.
Oh dear, you can tell it'sgetting towards the end of the
day.
Yeah, so I think the advancedcourse from our side gives our
paralegals a lot more scope forlearning, which ultimately,
(39:10):
across most of the firms thatthe paralegals work in or for
that's what we do on aday-to-day basis.
It's very rare that you'regoing to get a paralegal that
deals solely with European work.
Our roles usually aremultifaceted, so that's where I
think we've got the edge reallyon this, because it is such it's
(39:36):
built much more around what itis that we actually do every day
well, thank you both for comingon and um talking us through
the now incredibly complex worldof IP paralegal training.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Now that we've got different levels and the
European dimension and I'm sureit'll get better as we go on as
well There'll be more optionsand modules for our paralegals
to take.
Are you sat there thinking, oh,we could have talked about this
.
Are there any things thatyou're thinking, oh, I really
wish we could have squeezed thatin.
Or do you think you'veexhausted the subject?
Speaker 5 (40:13):
I suppose you probably hit on the fact that
there will be extra modules inthe future on the advanced exam.
To start off with, it will befour modules.
But there will be some otherbolt-ons that if you take the
exam next year, that if you takethe exam next year when the,
(40:34):
when the additional modules comeout, you will have access to
them because you've already donethe exam.
So you won't have to try andget you know, go off and ask
somebody for it, you'll just begiven it, and that would
concentrate on things liketransfer of rights or spcs or
designs.
So there'll be other littlemodules for people, but at the
minute the main focus, as youcan probably imagine, is just to
(40:56):
get the main part of the examand subsequent qualification out
for people Also as well.
I suppose we should probablytalk about how much it's going
to cost for the advanced exam,because anybody listening to
this is probably very interested.
So it will be £1,200.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
But the beauty with that is the fact that if you
think about the advanced coursesin four modules, so it's
effectively £300 per module.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Yes, it sounds like a really good value to me.
I know people would expect meto say that, but in terms what
you pay for professionalqualifications, that's.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
That seems to be reasonable yeah, and and you
know it is as we've said it's.
It's pitched as being anadvanced exam.
You know, if somebody's takenthe introductory course, they
may not necessarily be in aposition to be taking the
advanced exam, even though, likesay, it's open book.
You've got to have thatknowledge of being in the job
(41:55):
and have some kind of seniorrole to have really come across
the more advanced things thatare covered in the advanced exam
.
So it's usually going to besomebody that's probably been
working as a patent paralegalfor three or four years since
they did the introductoryqualification oh, thank you both
so much for um coming andspending your time with us.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Uh, we always try and end on a little bit of a
tangential question.
Um, and grill and I've been notnecessarily knocking ideas
around in the.
In the chat we've got as far aswho's going to do this me or
you, and it's me.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Um so it is, you're right, good, good, good.
Oh yeah, I think that's what wedecided, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
it's good, it's a good one, you know so we talked
a wee bit at the start about um,walk on music and the like.
So I'm going to give you ascenario, okay.
Your scenario is um, you, youbroke up in your hotel in the
morning, yeah, and um, thekeynote speaker for the
conference that you were justgoing to be a delegate at, and
you don't know, really, reallyknow anybody has pulled out and
(42:58):
someone said to you well, willyou cover the slot?
And you said, yes, what's yourwalk on music?
What?
What do you walk on to so thata bunch of people who wouldn't
otherwise know you get youimmediately.
What's, what's?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, well, I'm very much a power ballad person, as
you know.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, I'm both kind of a power ballad and so I'd
probably pay the best powerballad ever, which I would have
woken up to in the hotel room,because you've got to wake up to
a power ballad.
It's kind of an alarm, kind ofa call to action, an alarm in
many ways, action and an alarmin many ways.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
So, yeah, um, there's no question that I would walk
on to africa by toto.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, like that,good, good shout not, not quite
this bouncy, sort of you didn't.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
You didn't ask me what I was wearing because one
of them in my giraffe costume.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
It all makes sense yeah, because you obviously had
that in your hotel with you,didn't you?
Speaker 4 (43:50):
that was I was half expecting you to say that was
going to be the mankini thatyou'll be going to be wearing on
your holiday.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I said my key, didn't I?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
yeah unfortunately, I'm marine.
Vicky.
You now have to answer the samequestion.
So, um, go on, emory.
What?
What's your walk-on music inthis unfair scenario, I've
dumped you in okay, uh, well.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Well, willem loves a power ballad, I love a musical,
so I'm going to go for If myFriends Could See Me Now, oh
yeah, yeah, yeah, I like thatthere's a story there as well.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Isn't there that tells a story.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I like that.
What's that?
Is that Chicago?
No, what's that from?
Speaker 5 (44:27):
Isn't it from sweet charity?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
another song, right, I'll google it quickly you keep
going yeah, let's.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Let's have vicky ever go well grill and amory
frantically google it's sweetcharity.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
It's sweet charity, I was right well done me.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
Just because of the way that my brain is jumping
around all over the place allthe time I think it would have
to be.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I predict a riot oh, wow that is that is a that's
going to get the room going, Ilike yeah yeah, yeah, obviously
I know, surprised lee by sayinglee, it's not fair because we
know he's got two.
I do this immediately.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I don't know about two in the back pocket
immediately.
I don't know.
I normally have a couple a year, don't I, because I do it
regularly.
I did Radiohead's Creep back inNovember at the Memcom one.
That went down really, reallywell.
It was the clean version.
Obviously there was a couple ofweeks left wearing it.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I'm going to add an extra dimension to it, though,
lee.
Go on then To to your scenario,which is that it's um.
You're actually fronting anawards, um awards show for the
fashion industry.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
It's an award show for the fashion end.
How am I gonna?
How am I gonna, oh, no, oh,there's so many come to mind
that aren't clean enough for meto use.
Uh, I'll tell you after we stoprecording.
So, yeah, no, my head would bekind of a whirl looking at all
of the different outfits andstuff.
So, off the top of my head,gwilym, I'm going to go with the
(45:56):
Vic and Bob version of Dizzy.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, I like that.
All the cool people love thatsong.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, yeah, top of my head, yeah, I couldn't think of
anything better than that Ithink you'd have anna wintle,
off a chair, dancing leading theconga.
If only, if only we've got towrap it up there, but our
listeners are going to hangaround for just a couple of
seconds longer because beforethey leave, before they leave,
they're going to pop us a littlereview on the podcast platform
that they're using so that otherpeople can find us.
(46:24):
Thanks all thanks, nice to seeyou bye.
(46:49):
Outro Music.
Hello Gwynam, how are ?
You mate.
Oh Lee, it's great to see you,so chipper I know, yeah, I feel
really on fire this week.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I've had a really good couple of weeks and I think
I'm carrying that enthusiasmthrough with me.
I'm off the back of SuperCongress, big seller at Super
Congress up in Edinburgh, whichwas amazing, probably one of my
12th Congress and I think it'scertainly the best one I've been
to.
Single topic UPC, which withsome really high level speakers,
(00:37):
upc judges, the chair of the UPadmin committee and some high
powered users at UPC, so yeah,so it's quite great content
there.
And then last week was the IPParalegal Conference, which is
nice and timely because we'll betalking IP paralegal stuff
today, um, nice and timelybecause we'll be talking ip
paralegal stuff today in um.
We were in birmingham and um,it's a different crowd, so got a
very different feel to it.
They the younger, moreenthusiastic, for a good time, I
would say, and um, and I'll tryand tailor my performance
accordingly see a lesser manwould be tired and jaded from
(01:01):
all that.
But that's not no, you just keepgoing you're buoyed by the
experience I saw.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I saw the footage of you dancing on at congress to
whatever the old theme tuners soI did.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I did franz ferderland take me out on that
congress and I did elo mr bluesky in um at the ip paralegal
conference I saw the mr blue sky, good entrance, great entrance,
except um and I'll test thisand maybe listeners to the
podcast could let me know.
My wife's probably got to stopit because I look too much like
David Brennan.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I think all nobody here.
There's a couple of peoplewatching in here.
Everyone's just horrified.
Look, look at the horror ontheir faces.
They're not laughing theirheads off at the astonishing
accuracy of that comment.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Comment no I'd hate to be some sort of cheap ricky
gervais um cover act I think youshould make some good money
from that nice little sideline.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
So what you've?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
been up to anything exciting.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Um, I've just been raffling around I'm.
I told you I'm going on holiday.
Actually, you're gonna have aproper break, aren't you?
That's exciting.
I'm really excited about that.
So I'm kind of just to get myhead around, not reading emails
all day, which I'm quite excitedabout.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Make sure you do that as well.
You've got to promise me thatyou will actually down tools
properly.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I will, I will, I will.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I'll be doing my mankini, not reading emails,
that's yeah probably slightlytoo much information, but I
can't get that image out of myhead now.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I've got David Brent in mind, so right back at you.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the Chartered.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Institute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Should we get the guests on?
Yeah, well, I guess we shoulddo in order of superiority,
seniority.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Neither, neither.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
The grief alphabetical alphabetical.
Well, alphabetical, it stilltakes me in the way of chair of
the IP Paralegal Committee.
First was what I was going tosay.
So, Anne-Marie Parsons, hello,how are you?
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Hi Lee, I'm all right , thank you.
How are you?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
They have not seen you since a very messy curry
last Thursday.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
Yes, it was a very delicious curry, though.
It was nice, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah, did they find the best place to go to in
Birmingham or what.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
Yeah, it was delicious.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Hey, gwyneth, I remember a haunt that I last
went to about 15 years ago andwhat are the chances it was
still there?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Oh, fantastic.
Is it a balty, a big balty inthe Midlands, isn't it Balty?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
curries, yeah, lots of curries.
So it's a place called Bargy,which is just near the
conference centre, and, yeah, soI used to use it regularly when
I used to speak at FEconferences, because they were
always in Birmingham and we werelooking for somewhere to go and
I said, oh, we should, weshould try and find this place,
bargy, just around the corner.
Still, there looks exactly thesame.
Pretty sure they recognize mewhen I walked in.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Oh, I'm not buying this.
What music did you play to walkinto the curry house?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't know what kind of music at every venue I
go to.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
So, Anne-Marie that was rude.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
We interrupted you in your introduction.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
So tell us all about yourself.
Okay, no problem.
Well, as you know, lee, I am asenior paralegal working at
Murgatroyd and I've been aparalegal for oh too long than I
care to mention, to be honestand day to day.
I am a senior paralegal.
(04:25):
I still have a paralegal role,but in addition I am in charge
of the training for patentparalegals at Murgatroyd.
I help with their careerprogression.
Um and um, as you say, I workvery closely with the Chartered
Institute of Patent Attorneysbecause I am on the um, I'm the
(04:45):
chair of the IP ParalegalCommittee and I also sit on
council.
I'm also um an examiner for theuh introductory course as well
how do you find time to do anylike proper?
Work, you must be exhaustedwell, I have moments when I get
a bit of paralegal work done solet's, let's introduce your,
(05:07):
your partner on the podcast,vicky Maynard.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Vicky, you've been around the IP paralegal and
previously patent admin stufffor for a long time as well,
haven't you?
Speaker 4 (05:15):
I have um not quite as long as Anne-Marie.
She was definitely there beforeI started.
She was one of the um, one ofthe paralegals that taught me
how to do my job.
Yeah, yeah, all those many,many years ago.
I think it's 21 years ago now.
That's really scary.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, what is your job?
Because you've had a recentchange, haven't you?
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I have.
Like Anne-Marie, I still workas a patent paralegal.
I still do a lot of work ofthat, but I am the IP process
manager at D Young Co.
So I sort of look after all ofthe systems, doing all the
(05:56):
future, looking to see what'scoming up, what's going to
impact, trying to make sure thateverybody's got all of the
training that they need inrelation to all the different
systems that we use.
Yeah, so pretty much all roundon everything with that, with
all of our systems, all of theprocesses.
Then on top of that I'm thevice chair of the admin
committee and then I used to bethe lead course tutor for the
(06:20):
introductory patent certificate.
Stepped away from that justover a year ago yeah, nearly two
years now, but I did thatbecause I think it needed to
concentrate a little bit more onthe incoming advanced patent
paralegal course.
And in amongst on top of that Ialso do I'm one of the lovely
hated people that do thequestions for the Europeanan
(06:43):
patent administratorcertification.
So I sit on the board at theepo um dealing with those
questions and my claim to famefor that is I am the only uk
paralegal involved in thatthat's quite.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
That's quite a claim to fame, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
well, it keeps me up message for a little while
anyway, after saying and itclearly, clearly keeps you,
keeps you busy um so whereshould we start?
Speaker 3 (07:05):
should we start?
Should we start a little bitwith just the work of the
committee?
How many of you are on thecommittee?
Speaker 5 (07:09):
there are 15 of us.
That includes uh, we have tohave a patent attorney on our
committee and we have anotherco-opted person, so 13 actual
paralegals from both industryand in-house on our committee.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
That's really cool, isn't it?
So it doesn't sound like you'relacking in voluntary enthusiasm
in that sense.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Oh no, absolutely not , and we found that out when we
were at the IP ParalegalConference last week because we
had so many people asking us howthey could get involved with
committee and who really seemedextra keen to get involved with
committee.
Um, that that's, you know.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It's just great that people do want to get involved
and I always think back to thetime when we made the decision
to um to sort of formalize theip paralegal profession, um, to
create it as a committee ofcouncil and to open up
membership.
So we, so we did that throughI'm gonna be a little bit sort
of governance geeky here,william, so apologies um, we did
(08:10):
that through the 2018 review ofthe bylaws, which meant that
came in in 2019, so just fiveyears ago, yeah, and we counted
at that time and we had inassociate membership, we had
about 40 I think it was 42 or 43patent administrators or ibO
illegals or people with a titlethat generally sort of slotted
in to what we were trying to do.
And I've just checked We've got642 at the moment.
(08:31):
So in five years, we've gonefrom low 40s to mid 600s and
growing year on year.
That's really good, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Amazing.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
That's impressive.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Are you finding that the employers are supportive of
kind of helping you guys outworking on the committee and
everything?
Is it popular?
Speaker 4 (08:50):
A little bit of a mix .
Okay, on the whole, I think alot of the attorneys know that
the work that the administrationcommittee are doing and being
involved under CEPA, and so allof the extra guidance and
everything else they get fromthat, is a positive.
(09:10):
I still think it needs to getpushed by firms a little bit
more.
If I'm honest, as to what thebenefits are for paralegals to
be members of SEPA, don't knowwhat you think, anne-marie.
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Yeah, I mean my company obviously 100% behind me
.
Being a member of SEPA andbeing a member of the committee
as well, they're more than happyto support me and my colleagues
.
I think that, like you say,we're seeing, you know, the
uptake of membership increasingyear on year, and I think that
that's a really good sign toshow that employers really are
(09:47):
getting the message that supermembership is great for their
paralegals.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
um, so, hopefully, those companies that are backing
their paralegals are leading byexample and that the other
firms will follow what sort ofbenefits are there of being um
one, uh paralegal member of SEPAand two more widely involved in
the work that you guys do?
Speaker 5 (10:09):
well, obviously the main thing is is the education
side.
Um, if you're a member aparalegal member of SEPA, then
there are web webinars galorefor you to continue your
professional competence, and Ithink that that's probably for
most people.
What they use their membershipfor is to be able to access that
(10:31):
.
The webinars are all free ofcharge for SIPA members.
But I guess also there's thejournal, and we very recently
started a paralegal section inthe journal and we've had
feedback that the paralegals arefinding that really interesting
.
There's also a newsletter thatcomes out quarterly and I'm not
(10:52):
sure whether paralegals knowthis, but they're actually
invited to the um SIPA drinksevents that go on um for
networking, um, and thenobviously we have our paralegal
conference.
That's just happened andmembers can get an early bird
ticket for that so they can savethemselves or their employers
(11:12):
quite a decent amount of moneyon the entrance.
And again, that's another greatplace for learning and
networking.
Have I missed anything else?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
You've sold it to me, Anne-Marie.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
It sounds like a good thing.
Excellent, I'll wait for mycommission then.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
So let's should we look a little bit in, a little
bit more detail at um sort ofspecific areas I know you're
keen to talk about on thepodcast.
So largely that's training andeducation.
Yeah, yeah, and most, mostpeople, as I understand it
correct me if I'm wrong, becausethis is just sort of my um very
simplistic perspective Mostpeople probably come into the
world of IP paralegal or somekind of administrative support
(11:53):
role in an IP firm notnecessarily thinking about it as
a career.
It's a sort of anadministrative move.
Absolutely.
So they wouldn't have beenexposed to any training
necessarily before they start,absolutely so they wouldn't have
been exposed to any trainingnecessarily before they start.
And so what do we?
What can we offer people whoare sort of new in that area of
work to help them understandtheir world?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
It's a good question, nick, because we've got a few
things that we've we've got inplay new in post.
Obviously you've got all of theinternal training that's going
to happen or should happenwithin the firm from your peers
and in-house trainers etc.
And after you've got someexperience, there is the SEPA
(12:40):
introductory patent paralegalcourse, which is available.
Introductory patent paralegalcourse, which is available,
which is now pretty muchrecognized as an industry
professional qualification,because for finding you look at
any job adverts now for patentparalegals or patent secretaries
and they're all asking forpeople who have had this course
(13:04):
and have got it underneath theirbelt.
And the course basically issplit down into multiple parts.
So it's covering GB patentapplications, european PCTs and
a little bit on designs and yousit an examination at the end of
(13:25):
that and one of the beauties ofdoing that qualification and
passing is the fact that bydefault you also get membership
for the remainder of that yearas a SIPA paralegal member.
So the introductory course isin place.
(13:45):
I think it's not going to bethat long before they're sitting
the next round of examinations,because I know at the moment
we're in the middle of all ofthe webinars that are in place
for the different sections, andso everybody's doing all of
their studying using the newsoftware that's been introduced
(14:05):
by SIPA, new learning platformcalled Pebblepad, which is, I've
got to say, I find absolutelybrilliant.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
It's actually really good.
Yeah, I love Pebblepad.
I'm a big Pebblepad fan.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, just the way that you're able to interact,
both if you're a mentor or astudent, the way that you're
able to interact with each otherand literally review what point
you're going or you've got toall the way through your
training, and the way that youcan access the materials, the
webinars, all of this sort ofthing is fantastic.
Platform and yeah, so that'snew for the introductory course
(14:44):
this year is the um, the pebblepad bit and the feedback that
we've had so far.
Correct me if I'm wrong, emoryit's actually been really
positive um, so we're lookingforward to seeing how well that
keeps developing year on yearwith the introductory course
that's really good.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
That's good to hear that, because I know I mean some
people may have come across itif they've had any time in
universities, but it's quiteunusual to be being used in a
professional body context.
So we're quite pleased andproud to have it on board.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
Yeah, and I know that it's been well received in our
company.
As vicky said, the interactionthat can can happen now between
the student and the mentor is alot easier.
It's also pretty much easier tonavigate your way through all
of the modules and find awebinar that you're after or
find the, you know, the, thewritten script that you're after
(15:39):
.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
So, yeah, it's just a little bit more user-friendly.
Do you reckon we can ever bebrave enough to let the
attorneys on it?
Speaker 5 (15:47):
I don't think they could break it, it's quite easy.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
We'll probably break it.
You've seen us, you know.
You know.
Any of you ever introduce a newrecord system into your firm,
you'll know what we can do.
What we'll do first of all iswe'll change it into what we
used to do anyway.
What we can do, what we'll dofirst of all, is yeah, we'll
change it into what we used todo anyway.
That's the first thing we'll do.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
Somehow we'll find a way why do you think we limit
the access that you can have onthese systems?
Speaker 5 (16:17):
also, there's no deadlines involved on pebble pad
, so you should be pretty safewell, we'll never do anything
then that's it.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Yes, so that's so.
That's the introductory course,been established for a long,
long time now in various guises,and I think you're all quite
happy with how that works.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
Yeah, yeah it's basically there to give new
paralegals the foundations ofwhat they need to be able to do
their job and assist thefoundations of what they need to
be able to do their job andassist the people they work with
and the patent attorneys asmuch as they can.
So dealing with filingformalities, basic search and
examination procedures, butliterally from the start of when
(16:57):
somebody comes in the door andsays I've got this invention can
, what can I do with it?
All the way through to it beinggranted and you having that
lovely patent certificate at thethrough to it being granted and
you having that lovely patentcertificate at the end of it do
you?
Speaker 3 (17:08):
do you think that there's a sort of a period of
time qualifying period, call itwhat you will that people should
do before they start the course?
Do you need to get a little bitof experience under your belt
first, or could you just comestraight into it?
Speaker 5 (17:19):
no, you definitely need some experience.
Yeah, I think, uh, wedefinitely recognize at least 18
months where I'm working, andsometimes it can be more with.
Generally, 18 months is apretty bare minimum.
Um, because it's quite a lot ofinformation to have to learn
(17:42):
the introductory course, theexam for it is.
Also, it's a closed book exam,so you have to know the answers.
You can't.
You know, a lot of patent examsare open books, so you've got
all your paperwork and rules andregulations that you can refer
back to get the answer.
But the introductory coursedoes rely on people having a
(18:02):
knowledge of the procedures andthe formalities.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So, um, you definitely need to know your
stuff for it, or at least yourbasic stuff anyway yeah, and I
think that's also part of thereason why we encourage people,
when they do the course, to havea mentor.
Um, otherwise they've got us.
They've literally then got apoint of contact they can go to
if there's something that theycome across or it's like I'm
(18:29):
really not quite sure on this.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So at least they've got support from their mentors
is that someone they find intheir firm, or could it be
someone from um outside the firm?
How does the mentoring thingwork?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
work, the mentors usually are people within their
own firm.
Yeah, um, so it could beanother.
It could be a senior paralegal,it could be another paralegal
who's previously done the course, or it could even be a patent
attorney.
Um, yeah, it could be a widerange.
(19:01):
There's nothing in place at themoment in relation to being
able to mentor outside of yourown firm at the moment, but, as
it stands at the moment, itusually is somebody that's
internal, that has moreexperience and can guide you
through all of the differentmodules of the course.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I was going to ask sorry, I was going to ask what
do we do before all this?
Because you know, back in theday you've got your records
department and without thestructure and kind of
qualifications or SEPAmembership, how did people used
to do this?
Because there was quite a lotto learn.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Oh, trust me, the course is smaller now than it
used to be.
Trust me, the course is smallernow than it used to be.
Yeah, yeah, the, the iterationof the course as it stands now
is half the volume of what theprevious patent sorry, patent
paralegals course used to be.
Um, so there used to be a muchbigger course, which took it's
(20:03):
about half a year, wasn't it,anne-marie?
To do, where we had to travelup to London every Thursday I
think it was either in themorning or the afternoon and sit
in SIPA headquarters and doyour lectures and your work and
at the end of it sit a massiveexam in a nice big drafty hall.
And the introductory course wasput in place to, as I said,
(20:30):
give people more of a, aninitial understanding, um, of
the filing formalities, um, the,the basics really, of the
building blocks of what theywill continue to learn on as
they go through their professionokay.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
So you got, you broke it up as well, into a
foundation and then you take iton and you learn.
But before that, I mean, I'mpretty sure there weren't any
paralegal kind of well.
The word didn't exist at onepoint.
And back in, I think in the 90s, when I was kicking off, I
don't recall there being anyparticular formal training at
all.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
I don't know how it used to work.
It's bizarre, isn't it?
I think we used to be calledpatent administrators.
We've moved away from that tothe role paralegal, and I think
that the use of the wordadministrator is probably where
it came from.
Is there was probably anadministrator who saw that their
attorney had done the sameletter for a client three times
and said, hey, I could do thatfor you.
And the attorney thought, great, that would be fantastic if you
could do that for me.
It's really basic, it's just aformality.
(21:33):
And then gradually, I think thenyou know, those administrators
gradually took on more workbecause there were there are
formalities that are straightforward, that are set, that have
set deadlines.
There's no technical expertiseneeded, you just need to have an
understanding of the law andthe rules relating to those
(21:55):
formalities.
And they were things that theadministrator could take on away
from the attorney to free upthe attorney's time.
And then, gradually, I think,firms have realised that there
was value to their firm by aparalegal taking on that role
and freeing up the attorney'stime to do chargeable work.
And then gradually, it's turnedinto a profession and there was
(22:21):
the original group ofparalegals I suppose you could
call them, which was known asIPAG or the Intellectual
Property Administrators Group,and they kind of started off the
process of forming a groupwhere people could query about
being a paralegal if they werein a firm, started looking at
(22:44):
what courses were available forparalegals and if there weren't
any, they could set them up.
And they actually then, withSEPA, set up the um, the old
iteration of the exam, which wasthe um yeah, the IPAC, the
intellectual propertyadministrator's certificate,
(23:04):
yeah, and that was the coursethat I originally did um.
But there came a point where, um, it was decided that it was
quite a big course to manage andthat people were actually
getting more benefit out oflearning the basics, so that, as
V said, they kind of split thatcourse into two and we have the
(23:51):
intellectual propertyadministrators certificate,
which is basically what wastaken out of the original
iteration of the court, plussome.
So there's something for eventhose people that did the
original course.
There's more learning for them.
And well, I guess that's movingon quite nicely, isn't it into
the fact that behind the scenesthere's been a lot of
squirreling getting umsyllabuses ready, getting um
(24:14):
webinars ready, getting umslides ready for the webinars,
um, getting guidelines in placeall the um logistics as well
regarding you know how you canexamine it and everything.
All of that has been going onin the background and the
advanced patent paralegal courseis going live in the new year
(24:39):
with a view to the studying forthe qualification beginning in
April 2025.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
studying for the qualification beginning in April
2025.
That's exciting.
And how so, comparatively, howlong does each course run?
I think you may have said onthe introduction I really can't
remember.
So how long is the introduction, how long is the advanced?
Speaker 5 (24:57):
The introductory is the students will start their
webinars and associatedcoursework in September.
Then they have, they do thethree main modules and they do a
little bit on designs and theyhave a mock examination in
December and they have theirfinal examination in the January
(25:19):
so it's yeah, it is prettysnappy.
The advanced course is obviouslydealing with a lot more
advanced stuff, so it's going totake longer and the advanced
course will run from April untilthe December, so pretty much
three quarters of a year.
It will have four core modules.
(25:43):
There'll be a module onEuropean patents, uk patents and
PCT patents and then there willbe another module on ethics.
Three of the modules will beexamined, but they're not
examined how we currently markthe introductory course.
So this is again.
(26:04):
There's another move away fromhow things are with the
introductory course, in that thecandidates will be given an
assessment for each of themodules and they will have a
certain amount of time to goaway and do the assessment.
We are thinking that's about amonth, a month, um, and then um.
(26:29):
The assessments are markedseparately from each other, so
there's not one final exam.
There's three assessments thatgo towards the qualification so
I'm interested.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
The ethics module is an interesting one.
That's not always.
That's not one that has reallycrept into the patent attorney
side, funny enough.
So what?
What happens in that bit waswhat are the?
What's the focus of that module?
Speaker 4 (26:55):
I think it's making sure that there is a really
concrete understanding aboutwhat our work performance, the
way that we deal with the patentattorneys, the way that we deal
with the patent attorneys, theway that we deal with the
records, that we look after allof these sorts of things, having
a really good understanding ofthe professionalism that's
needed behind it, but also thefact that if you do something
(27:18):
wrong, what the repercussionsare, not just for the firm that
you're working for, but for theclient that you're working for
as well.
So and getting an understandinghow it all ties in in relation
to our regulatory body, ipreg.
So they've got a bit more of anunderstanding of what it is
(27:42):
that IPREG do and what therequirements are on the firm.
It is that IPRIG do and whatthe requirements are on the firm
.
So it's giving them.
It's giving them more of a highlevel understanding of why we
do things we do in the way thatwe do it and the the reasoning
and judgment behind it.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I love that.
I think I mean, anne-marie, youmentioned the word
professionalization and that isso central to it.
I think up.
I mean, anne-marie, youmentioned the word
professionalisation and that isso central to it.
I think upskilling my motherwould shout at me for saying
upskilling she goes not a properword.
But this is all aboutupskilling though.
Generally isn't it?
It really is moving theparalegal you know dealing with
the client, understanding theclient needs and everything, and
(28:23):
I think it's a really good kindof response to a lot of
computerization, a lot of theold basic tasks.
Machines are doing them now.
But as usual we find that aresponse to that is to actually
just get better the stuff thatwe really need to do, and I
think the growth of theorganization suggests everybody
was just waiting for this tohappen really yeah, absolutely,
absolutely.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
and the amount of questions that we've received
from people that have done boththe old course and the
introductory patent can't stressenough the amount of work and
the commitment of differentpeople for getting all of this
(29:12):
material together, because it'sa huge amount of work, as you
can imagine, because it's threequarters of a year's worth of
work, and that's before we evenstart looking at dealing with
the assessments that have to getsubmitted back and marking
those.
So we can't say thank youenough to everybody that's been
(29:33):
involved with getting this tothe point where we are now.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
Yeah, I completely agree, Vicky.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
It's lovely to see.
Are we kind of leading the wayin Europe?
Speaker 4 (29:43):
Yeah for an all-round course for an all-round paral,
an all round paralegal?
Yeah, no, absolutely.
I think we are.
I think we're quite unique inthe fact that we cover so many
different aspects and not onlyhave we got an introductory
course, we've now got anadvanced course coming in as
well, and I think the fact thatwe're able to sit under SIPA is
(30:06):
huge.
It's showing that there's moreof an appreciation and
recognition of the work that wedo as a profession.
Our almost our entire workinglife has been trying to promote
(30:31):
making sure people paralegalshave as much training as they
need for their role.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Yeah, I think it's always been a role, that um, it
was a bit in the shadows,sometimes back again, going back
a little bit, um, but everybodyknew that when you didn't know
actually what you were doing,you just go and ask the
paralegals and they sort you out.
We all know they really.
We just didn't admit it.
I had that with the other.
We had a oh, you know das dascodes and all that priority
document stuff.
Oh yeah, um, the white, whiteperson having issue if you come
(30:55):
across.
So I knew it was a problem, butyou know why.
So it's very helpful.
Of andy simpson I'm going tomention andy simpson name check
for andy um right up at the topof our paralegal group, who
basically told me why it wasimportant.
Thanks, andy, I had no clue.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
We do have our little bits of knowledge here, there
and everywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Oh no, it's unbelievable.
It is unbelievable and, yeah, Iwas truly humbled, correctly
humbled as well.
Actually, I think that's whatDAS stands for.
Let's face it.
Don't tell me, I'll look it up,I'll find out.
We're going to find out andtalking about kind of the
internationalisation.
So the EPO, I gather, is up tosomething.
(31:36):
Are we involved in that?
Are we connected?
How's it going?
Speaker 5 (31:39):
So if I start by saying there is now there is
it's been around for about five,six years the European Platform
of Intellectual PropertyAdministrators, the same as SIPA
(32:02):
are doing in the UK but on aEuropean level to basically
promote the profession of beinga paralegal.
And part of APIPA's work isworking with the EPO and working
with WIPO to to look at theirprocesses, whether they work for
(32:29):
paralegals as well as firms.
But also one of the things hasbeen being involved with the
European certification, which isalso known as the EPAC, and
Vicky can tell you more aboutthat because she is highly
involved with the EPAC with theEPAC, yep, yep, um, the EPAC, or
(32:59):
European Patent AdministratorCertification is just just had
its exam the other week, and sothat was the end, effectively
the end of year three, of thiscertification.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Now, and I must say I have to say it's a
certification and not aqualification.
So please do correct me if Isay qualification, because I'll
get shouted at by the.
EPO and the idea there is tryingto upskill patent
administrators who deal withEuropean work to a high level,
(33:37):
european work to a high level,and it deals with some complex
issues with working with the EPO, whether it not it be with them
as something that's being doneas a European patent application
or if it's something that'sbeing done as a PCT application,
but using the EPO to basicallyget the documents in the first
place.
So anything EPO related iswhere you're going to get the
(34:01):
basis for the syllabus for this.
I can't even say it's a newcertification anymore, because
it's three years anymore,because it's three years.
Um, and the syllabus is huge,as you can imagine.
It covers absolutely everythingthat you could come across.
Um, there is a board of us umwhich consists of members of the
(34:24):
EPO, members of the EPI and,for my sins, I can't actually
remember what EPI stands for.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Is it the European Patent Institute?
Speaker 4 (34:34):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That's the first thing I've known through this
entire podcast.
I'm so proud of myself.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
So, yeah, it has members from the EPI as well,
and then it also has a broadspectrum of patent paralegals
involved in there as well.
And ultimately I've beenresponsible for designing the
syllabus.
The EPO themselves havedesigned all of the training
(35:05):
materials that go alongside it,which has been drawn up and is
delivered by the EPO Academy andthe questions.
As I said at the beginning isbasically partly my fault, along
with the other board members.
So we literally meet at thebeginning of the year to set all
(35:27):
of the questions for the exam,which consists of this year
there were 15 1-5 multiplechoice questions, followed by
six open questions where youwere basically given a scenario
and then asked some questions onit.
Um, so it's, there's a lot to it.
(35:49):
The expectation of the EPO andof a lot of patent attorneys who
have been involved with thecourse has said they want their
paralegals If they pass thiscertification.
It's a certification from theEPO, so they want to make sure
that the standards are high,hence the difficulty of the
(36:13):
course.
But I think, anne-marie, yousat at the first year, so I
think you can comment on thematerials, the syllabus and the
exam.
Speaker 5 (36:28):
Well, I mean, basically, as you say, it covers
an absolutely huge amount.
The good thing is that it is anopen book exam, so you have got
the ability to access anydocumentation that you need.
Having said that, you do needto have a high level
understanding to be able to knowwhere to go to look for the
(36:50):
information.
Um, and the questions arepitched pretty much at attorney
level of formalities.
So all of the quirky thingsthat can happen, um, that you're
more likely to come intocontact with if you're more
advanced in your in yourprofession, um, and yeah, I mean
(37:15):
I have to say I've been aparalegal for a long time and I
found it very difficult, um, butI did pass it, which is good
for you um so, yes, I was one ofthe first uh europeanegals, so
that's quite a nice little thingto have under my belt, and
(37:35):
we're hoping that the advancedexam or the advanced
qualification that SEPA aregoing to be providing is going
to have very similar high levelknowledge.
Again, it's about when you're asenior paralegal not necessarily
knowing everything on asyllabus, but knowing where to
(37:56):
go and find that information,which I think is you know.
It mimics what happens ineveryday senior paralegal
working life is, if you comeacross a problem, you may not
necessarily know straight awaywhat to do with it, but you know
where to find the information.
And the EPAC looks at that andthe advanced course that SIPA
(38:19):
will be offering will also belooking for that level of
knowledge.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
But obviously the biggest difference between the
two, the European course, or theEuropean certification, is
focused purely on Europeanprocedural acts, whereas the
advanced course that will bebeing done through SEPA covers
GB PCT, regardless of whereyou're filing it.
(38:47):
And which one did I forget,emery EP?
Thank you, ep.
Oh dear, you can tell it'sgetting towards the end of the
day.
Yeah, so I think the advancedcourse from our side gives our
paralegals a lot more scope forlearning, which ultimately,
(39:10):
across most of the firms thatthe paralegals work in or for
that's what we do on aday-to-day basis.
It's very rare that you'regoing to get a paralegal that
deals solely with European work.
Our roles usually aremultifaceted, so that's where I
think we've got the edge reallyon this, because it is such it's
(39:36):
built much more around what itis that we actually do every day
well, thank you both for comingon and um talking us through
the now incredibly complex worldof IP paralegal training.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
Now that we've got different levels and the
European dimension and I'm sureit'll get better as we go on as
well There'll be more optionsand modules for our paralegals
to take.
Are you sat there thinking, oh,we could have talked about this
.
Are there any things thatyou're thinking, oh, I really
wish we could have squeezed thatin.
Or do you think you'veexhausted the subject?
Speaker 5 (40:13):
I suppose you probably hit on the fact that
there will be extra modules inthe future on the advanced exam.
To start off with, it will befour modules.
But there will be some otherbolt-ons that if you take the
exam next year, that if you takethe exam next year when the,
(40:34):
when the additional modules comeout, you will have access to
them because you've already donethe exam.
So you won't have to try andget you know, go off and ask
somebody for it, you'll just begiven it, and that would
concentrate on things liketransfer of rights or spcs or
designs.
So there'll be other littlemodules for people, but at the
minute the main focus, as youcan probably imagine, is just to
(40:56):
get the main part of the examand subsequent qualification out
for people Also as well.
I suppose we should probablytalk about how much it's going
to cost for the advanced exam,because anybody listening to
this is probably very interested.
So it will be £1,200.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
But the beauty with that is the fact that if you
think about the advanced coursesin four modules, so it's
effectively £300 per module.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
Yes, it sounds like a really good value to me.
I know people would expect meto say that, but in terms what
you pay for professionalqualifications, that's.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
That seems to be reasonable yeah, and and you
know it is as we've said it's.
It's pitched as being anadvanced exam.
You know, if somebody's takenthe introductory course, they
may not necessarily be in aposition to be taking the
advanced exam, even though, likesay, it's open book.
You've got to have thatknowledge of being in the job
(41:55):
and have some kind of seniorrole to have really come across
the more advanced things thatare covered in the advanced exam
.
So it's usually going to besomebody that's probably been
working as a patent paralegalfor three or four years since
they did the introductoryqualification oh, thank you both
so much for um coming andspending your time with us.
Speaker 3 (42:18):
Uh, we always try and end on a little bit of a
tangential question.
Um, and grill and I've been notnecessarily knocking ideas
around in the.
In the chat we've got as far aswho's going to do this me or
you, and it's me.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Um so it is, you're right, good, good, good.
Oh yeah, I think that's what wedecided, wasn't it?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
it's good, it's a good one, you know so we talked
a wee bit at the start about um,walk on music and the like.
So I'm going to give you ascenario, okay.
Your scenario is um, you, youbroke up in your hotel in the
morning, yeah, and um, thekeynote speaker for the
conference that you were justgoing to be a delegate at, and
you don't know, really, reallyknow anybody has pulled out and
(42:58):
someone said to you well, willyou cover the slot?
And you said, yes, what's yourwalk on music?
What?
What do you walk on to so thata bunch of people who wouldn't
otherwise know you get youimmediately.
What's, what's?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Oh, well, I'm very much a power ballad person, as
you know.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Oh really.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, I'm both kind of a power ballad and so I'd
probably pay the best powerballad ever, which I would have
woken up to in the hotel room,because you've got to wake up to
a power ballad.
It's kind of an alarm, kind ofa call to action, an alarm in
many ways, action and an alarmin many ways.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
So, yeah, um, there's no question that I would walk
on to africa by toto.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, like that,good, good shout not, not quite
this bouncy, sort of you didn't.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
You didn't ask me what I was wearing because one
of them in my giraffe costume.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
It all makes sense yeah, because you obviously had
that in your hotel with you,didn't you?
Speaker 4 (43:50):
that was I was half expecting you to say that was
going to be the mankini thatyou'll be going to be wearing on
your holiday.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I said my key, didn't I?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
yeah unfortunately, I'm marine.
Vicky.
You now have to answer the samequestion.
So, um, go on, emory.
What?
What's your walk-on music inthis unfair scenario, I've
dumped you in okay, uh, well.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Well, willem loves a power ballad, I love a musical,
so I'm going to go for If myFriends Could See Me Now, oh
yeah, yeah, yeah, I like thatthere's a story there as well.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Isn't there that tells a story.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I like that.
What's that?
Is that Chicago?
No, what's that from?
Speaker 5 (44:27):
Isn't it from sweet charity?
Speaker 1 (44:32):
another song, right, I'll google it quickly you keep
going yeah, let's.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Let's have vicky ever go well grill and amory
frantically google it's sweetcharity.
Speaker 5 (44:42):
It's sweet charity, I was right well done me.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
Just because of the way that my brain is jumping
around all over the place allthe time I think it would have
to be.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
I predict a riot oh, wow that is that is a that's
going to get the room going, Ilike yeah yeah, yeah, obviously
I know, surprised lee by sayinglee, it's not fair because we
know he's got two.
I do this immediately.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
I don't know about two in the back pocket
immediately.
I don't know.
I normally have a couple a year, don't I, because I do it
regularly.
I did Radiohead's Creep back inNovember at the Memcom one.
That went down really, reallywell.
It was the clean version.
Obviously there was a couple ofweeks left wearing it.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I'm going to add an extra dimension to it, though,
lee.
Go on then To to your scenario,which is that it's um.
You're actually fronting anawards, um awards show for the
fashion industry.
Speaker 3 (45:35):
It's an award show for the fashion end.
How am I gonna?
How am I gonna, oh, no, oh,there's so many come to mind
that aren't clean enough for meto use.
Uh, I'll tell you after we stoprecording.
So, yeah, no, my head would bekind of a whirl looking at all
of the different outfits andstuff.
So, off the top of my head,gwilym, I'm going to go with the
(45:56):
Vic and Bob version of Dizzy.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
Yeah, I like that.
All the cool people love thatsong.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Yeah, yeah, top of my head, yeah, I couldn't think of
anything better than that Ithink you'd have anna wintle,
off a chair, dancing leading theconga.
If only, if only we've got towrap it up there, but our
listeners are going to hangaround for just a couple of
seconds longer because beforethey leave, before they leave,
they're going to pop us a littlereview on the podcast platform
that they're using so that otherpeople can find us.
(46:24):
Thanks all thanks, nice to seeyou bye.
(46:49):
Outro Music.
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