December 13, 2024 • 48 mins
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dana Brown Northcott from Amazon and Etienne Sanz de Acedo from INTA as we explore leadership transitions in the world of intellectual property. Discover how fresh leadership at organizations like the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys and INTA, with the likes of Bobby Mukherjee and Elizabeth Stewart Bradley stepping into Presidential roles, is shaping the future of the IP landscape. Our discussion uncovers the challenges and exciting opportunities that arise when new perspectives and agendas come to the forefront, and how these shifts impact member-driven associations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
We're recording Gwilym.
There you go.
Sorry, sorry, well done, leepress the button.
Yeah, sorry, well done, leepressed the button.
Yeah, I worked out how to pressthe right button.
We probably should explain thatwe're recording a podcast in
person, which is an unusualexperience for us, as you said,
except in the pub.
Except we're in a pub which,unfortunately, we're not in.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
As I jump in ahead, I guess I've already said that we
made an early error there.
Yeah, no, no, that's um badtactic, bad tactic, bad tactic
and, yeah, terribly um rude,given that we've got guests with
us in person as well.
So that is exciting.
Yeah, how you been.
I'm very well, thank you I.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I told you I got something to talk about very
exciting new president change ofpresident emotional emotional
scenes last night.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yeah, so this, this podcast to go out in about a
week's time and Matt will havejust a week left of his
presidency, and then we haveBobby Mukherjee coming in in
January Excellent, and of coursenot just a change of president
but a change of perspective,because Matt very much private
practice, big private practicefocus, as naturally he would
have, but I think it's workedmagnificently across all of
(01:24):
SIPA's areas of work and Bobbycoming in from an industry
in-house perspective, so that'llgive us a different focus for
next year, which is good it'sbrilliant.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
We always try and take that into account, but it's
quite useful to be told what weneed to do and farewell to
Daniel it's just emotionalscenes the whole time.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
So yeah, Daniel, drops off of the officer train
Our officers get about threeyears in the gig.
Well, apart from you, you'vebeen an officer forever.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Forever.
Yeah, I predate the.
I was here before the charter.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I'm in it.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
I'm in the original.
So yeah, that's all change atSEPA and I think that's for me.
That's one of the fascinationsabout working in the membership
association, because you do getthis changing of the guard for
us annually.
I know some people have alonger presidency that but for
us annually and it means that myjob sort of reinvents itself
every year, which is so coolyeah, definitely so.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Each president seems to come with this not an agenda,
but kind of a manifestomanifesto yeah, that's good we
need that as well.
You need that change, yeah,yeah, everyone should change
leadership every year.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah whoever, whoever , absolutely, countries are
Countries, absolutely Countries,countries.
Would be a good one, wouldn'tit?
Not a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, don't get me started.
I don't want to get started onpolitics.
No, that's not politics, it'sjust a base.
It's just too depressing.
Shall we bring our guests on.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yes, so you and I were very fortunate to go to
Inter back in May, yes, and Ithink we recorded eight or nine
podcasts there, tiring, wasn'tit at times?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It was a bit yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I think we did four or five in one day, which was
exhausting, and our colleaguesfrom Inter looked after us
magnificently.
They did.
We really appreciate theopportunity to go there and
record the podcast, and so wehave Dana and Etienne with us
today.
Who wants to go there andrecord the podcast?
And so we have Dana and Etiennewith us today.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Who wants to go first ?
Who?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
wants to introduce themselves first.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
You go.
I know I feel like we'replaying rock scissors paper, for
who introduces themselves first?
I'm Dana Brown-Northcott.
I'm the Vice President ofIntellectual Property at
Amazoncom, manage the Trademarks, brands, portfolio, public
policy, from time to time,domain names, internet
governance and the like.
It's a mixed bag.
I am also privileged to saythat I'm the 2024 INTA president
(03:32):
, so I'm so glad to hear thatyou attended our annual meeting.
Hope you had a good time.
I had a great time and, as youwere reflecting on your
organization and change inpresidency, we've got the same
thing.
And so here we are on the whereare we?
4th, 5th, 6th December?
You'll play us a week time.
So you know you could considerme a lame duck at this point,
(03:53):
because we will have a change inpresident on January 1st.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Oh, you do January 1st as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yes, she's fantastic.
Her name is Elizabeth StewartBradley and she is the head of
trademarks at Bristol-MyersSquibb, etienne and the like,
and INTA are going to be in verygood hands with her.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's excellent, Etienne introduce yourself, sir
Sure.
So firstly, willem, thanks somuch for having us.
Etienne Saint-D'Arthur, intaCEO, and I like very much what
(04:31):
you said about you know being a,you know, a ceo of a membership
association.
You know changing president ona yearly basis, which is, you
know, always, you know, anexciting experience.
But I like to say that you knowthe ceo of an organization is
always the bad student, is theone that remains, you know the
same position and the goodstudents are the presidents who
are moving on, so this is wherewe are I like to think it get
away with it again.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I can reinvent myself and no one remembers how bad I
really was the previous year.
I've been with Lee as honorarysecretary for a long time, lee.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
You just work.
You get the best out ofeverybody.
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I don't know if you feel the same, Etienne, but I
feel it's a great privilege tobe the chief exec of a
particular professionalmembership association and I
always describe it to people whosometimes people think it's a
bit like being chief exec of acorporate, and it's not.
You're more the guardian,aren't you?
You're kind of looking afterthis organization for the
members and that's a really sortof privileged place to be.
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It is an extremely privileged position to be, you
know, and I think it's probablythe same that you have here at
SIPA, but our members are verypassionate about INTA and we are
a staff myself included and wetake our role very seriously.
There's a lot of fun, there's alot of work, but, yeah, you're
kind of the guardian of theorganization.
You want to make sure that itworks well, that it continues
(05:42):
evolving on a permanent basis,and what is really a unique
experience is the ability of youknow, in my case working with
incredible staff, with anincredible board of directors,
with officers, and with anincoming president every year
with kind of a slightlydifferent approach, perspective,
ideas, and you learn fromeveryone.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
I personally love it.
What have you learned from Dana?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, I think she's been, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Incredible.
I'm not saying.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And she knows it and I'm gonna say to them you know,
you know, it was veryinteresting because the way we
we kind of on board thePresident is, at the beginning
of January we have what we callinterweek, where we bring all
our staff into the officebecause a lot of people are now
working remote and we have thepresident and the council who
(06:34):
are coming as well, kind ofintroducing themselves, getting
to understand better how we workinternally.
And it was very interestingthis back January.
So Dana came in and she had somany questions, but so many
great and incredible questionsthat I thought, hmm, that's
going to be an interesting yearit's going to be different.
(06:55):
She's going to bring a differentperspective, but it's really.
You know, it's a joy.
And, Dana, what was?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
that experience?
Like for you, I did not pay himto say that.
But maybe later I'll try toapply in in the way that we do
at sepa.
So we have a vice president fora year.
Progress to be the presidentand then serve another year as
the past president.
Is that the same sort ofarrangement?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
yes, it is, but we also have a longer officer track
so we have a secretary, atreasurer, two vice presidents
oh wow and then the president isin a non-voting capacity and is
able to participate in boardmeetings for, I think, two years
at the end Was it three yearsand then roll off, but more as
an advisor to keep things level,but not necessarily someone who
(07:39):
controls strategy.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
So it's more figurehead than leadership,
perhaps.
Speaker 5 (07:45):
There is also if know .
Speaker 2 (07:46):
If I may, no, please.
What I think is really nice isthat with every president there
is a very strong, very solidinteraction that has been
prepared prior to thepresidential year.
And then we have weeklymeetings.
We discuss a lot of things andwe're always thinking how can we
(08:07):
improve the organization?
What are we going to be doing?
Of course, you know many peoplejust see, at INTA annual
meeting, leadership meeting,there is much, much more.
I mean, here we're now on akind of what we call a
delegation and we've done quitea few of those delegations where
, you know, we travel togetherwith some key staff, we meet
members in different countries,but we also meet a lot of you
(08:29):
know policymakers, you knowheads of IP offices.
So there is there is really abound that is created over time
and and a lot of trust and a lotof working together cool.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
So it's a core leadership meeting yeah, yeah
co-leadership, if I may say whenshould we start.
I'd quite like to talk aboutthe conference.
Do you call it a conference?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Inter Is that what it ?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
is Because it's a big old gig, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (08:51):
It was your first one and my second it was my first
one.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, thumbly enjoyable, hugely exhausting
because it's so large.
Just to walk around isexhausting, isn't it?
How do you put that together?
How, how much work goes intothat uh well, it's a lot of work
.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
We're extremely fortunate to have a very
professional team that islooking into the kind of
operational side of things, butalso, you know, putting the
right context so that it'smeaningful to the members.
And yeah, I mean uh, so yousaid, your first one was this
year okay, was it plant up whichwas which?
Speaker 5 (09:23):
I went to Barcelona a few years ago.
Okay, 2017.
Yeah, Good.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So you know, it's about 10,000 to 12,000 attendees
from all around the world, soit's a massive event.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
It's like a lower league football game, but for a
week.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Depends which team you are.
But yeah, it's.
We kind of.
You know, we start planning theannual meeting, in terms of the
venue, at least three to fiveyears in advance, Because you
need to find, you know, theright spot and you know there
are a lot of, you know issuesthat need to be looked at and
then, in terms of theprogramming for the meeting,
(10:01):
it's about, I would say, between14 to 18 months preparatory
work.
So it's a lot of work.
So by the time you know we getthere, we're all already
exhausted, but very excitedabout it and already doing the
next one as well.
So kind of, yeah, permanently,but very excited about it and
already doing the next one aswell.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah, kind of yeah, the next three to five
Permanently planning.
We have an annual conference,and so ours is largely driven by
volunteers, so it's our membersthat drive the content.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Clearly, we have a staff team who look after the
logistics and everything.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
But yeah so it's a year in the planning.
We deliver the conference andthe next day they're thinking
about next year's.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
It's way they're thinking about next year's.
It's absolutely the same,really truly the same, and we
take the learnings from beforeand then we move on.
Something that I really likeabout annual meeting is that
there's there's something foreveryone, really truly.
You're either connecting withyour in-house folks, you're
meeting outside council that youwant to hire in a particular
jurisdiction or work through anissue.
The content is very rich and atevery level, and so you know,
entry trademark attorneys cancome and learn something new.
Those who've been practicingfor a long time can have a
(11:04):
different strategic conversationabout what they've learned in
their practice.
And so it is not, you know,it's not all parties.
It's a lot of learning, it's alot of CLE, it's a lot of making
connections and, as a result,it makes everything better.
But, lee, to your point, we area member-driven organization,
(11:25):
and so the needs and what it isthat we're hoping to achieve
coming out of the conference ismember-driven bottoms up.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
How many members?
How many members?
About 6,500 organizations.
Organizations, so it'scompanies and firms, and I would
say we have about 30,000 to35,000 individuals who are
somehow involved in theactivities of the association
Through those companyaffiliations.
(11:52):
So yeah, I mean through thoseeither company or firm
affiliations, and then we'revery much committee-driven.
So we have about 120 betweencommittees and subcommittees.
Now, not every individual getsinto a committee.
We have about 4,500 individualswho are on committees.
Some are more active thanothers, so that's basically the
(12:15):
membership of INTA.
I mean, here in the UK we haveabout 260 firms.
We have, if I remembercorrectly, 57 corporations that
are members and I would say theUK practitioners are very active
within INTA.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Are you going to see all of those while you're here?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
We'd have to stay many, many months in order to do
that.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, my firm sent sent.
I think all of our trademarkpartners are in new orleans
recently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah, we had our leadership meeting.
We take it super seriously.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
So I'm a patent attorney, okay, um, so you know
there's no p in inter, but Ithink, I think that it's
becoming the ip hub, not only,only the organisation we can get
to that, but certainly thatmeeting is becoming potentially
not just the trademark hubmeeting but possibly the IP hub
meeting.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
We can certainly work so.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
I'm going on the right tracks because I'm
basically, if you're one, inAtlanta.
I basically reached out to myUS clients and said can I visit
you or we can meet at Intune.
Yeah, we'll come to Atlanta andsuddenly I had all my meetings,
all my get-togethers in oneplace.
And this is all.
Patent clients, basically.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
But we've got to trade my game, or maybe, but you
know.
But no, you're absolutely right, will.
There is no D in Inter, but wedo designs.
There is no C in Inter, but wedo copyrights.
There is no D, but we do dataprivacy.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Do you need some branding advice?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I think you know INTA has been evolving over time and
that was a kind of you know, Ithink it was a good decision and
it was a smart move from theboard of directors and the idea
was we need to look at IP morefrom a more kind of holistic
approach and really looking atall kind of IP rights.
It's true that you know notreally into patents, but even
(14:05):
today you know you need to lookat all IP rights somehow with
some level of connection.
And to your point, yes, thereare quite a few patent attorneys
that come to our annual meeting, to the point that little by
little, we've been adding somesessions that are not
necessarily purelypatent-related but have some
connections with patents, andthey're well attended.
We have a patent reception atINTA annual meeting already for
(14:28):
years and I've seen 400 or 500patent attorneys at that
reception.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
So, yes, that's a fact, that's happening.
Next question we can cut if?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
you don't like it.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
So who are your competitors on the patent side
in terms of providing thatglobal hub?
So we don't look at anyone as acompetitor.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
That's a starting point and I'm not trying to be
politically correct.
I think, we truly believe thatwe all need to work together
because it's all about IP andit's all about promoting IP.
I think you know the beauty ofyou know what we have today is
that each organization has kindof its niche.
For example, if we look atglobal IP organizations, I would
(15:10):
immediately think about AIPPI.
They're great.
They're perhaps a little moreacademic than what INTA is.
That doesn't mean that INTA isnot doing a very strong, solid
academic work, but we'reinitially we're an association
of brand owners and that remainskind of the focus of INTA.
(15:30):
So this is where you know thereis a nuance.
And then, of course, you knowyou have more regional
organizations, you have moreglobal organizations, you have
national organizations.
What we like to do is really tointeract with all of those as
much as possible.
We might not be always alignedon everything, but at least the
bottom line should be the same.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
If I can pile on to that, and this is something that
Etienne emphasizes a lot, andthis is something that Etienne
emphasizes a lot, but as aprofessional brand owner
association.
The role of an IP professionalis not silent not necessarily
anymore and so it's important tothink of ourselves as not a
four-letter acronym.
But I don't know, etienne, howmany other letters you listed
(16:12):
out.
You said that, william.
You said we needed a longeracronym.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
It's true, I've got PINDACT.
Tell me about it.
We need some help you said that, William.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
you said we needed a longer acronym.
It's true, I've got PINDACT.
How is that?
Tell me about it.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
We need some help with rebranding, but we are more
because the role of the IPprofessional is changing and
needs to do more.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Yeah, so any exciting news about where we might find
the inter-annual meeting in thefuture?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Is there anything you can share with us?
Breaking?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
news on the 26th, I don't remember.
No, the only thing I can tellyou is we and this is public
we're planning to go to Dubai.
I think for good reasons, wedecided to move that meeting to
2029.
Still committed to go to Dubaibecause the region is booming
(16:57):
from an IP perspective and it'sextremely important, but it was
probably better for all ourmembers to kind of, you know,
wait a little more and delaythat.
That, of course, has opened aspot for 2026.
There are many options still onthe table, heard, many of them,
like you probably have, becausethis is why you're asking that
question, like you probably have, because this is why you're
(17:17):
asking that question.
What I would say as well is youknow any of those venues, and
any venue we pick is normally,you know, a great city to INTA,
is a great host, but there are alot of parameters that we need
to consider, and one of theimportant parameters is to get
you know a sufficiently bighotel block.
Yeah, that is, you know, thatcan accommodate, you know, our
(17:39):
community.
Now, when members are trying toguess that in advance and are
trying and are putting the namesout there, that is making our
life more difficult to signthose contracts, and that's
basically, is increasing theprice of the hotel rooms, so it
goes against the interest of themembers.
Now, it's very difficult for meto explain to every individual
who's asking me what should isincreasing the price of the
hotel rooms, so it goes againstthe interest of the members.
Now, it's very difficult for meto explain to every individual
(18:01):
who's asking me what should be.
You know so, but trust us, itwill be.
You know, a great venue.
What we do as well and that'sagain, you know, something that
was agreed by the board is thatevery third year, we're bringing
our annual meeting outsideNorth America, and that's
something that we're keeping asa kind of rule because we think
(18:22):
it's a great opportunity tointeract with, you know,
potential new members, newconstituencies.
We weren't in Singapore.
We perhaps lost some of youknow Europeans or North
Americans in terms of attendance, but instead we had, you know,
quite a few new attendees fromAsia, and that's always
(18:42):
interesting, as any organizationwe need to think about.
You know, growth and you knowwhat's the future about.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
So what are you predicting, lee?
I'm going based on everythingyou said.
I would love to do predictions.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Just explain to us.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Everything I'm hearing is pointing towards
Abergavenny.
That's what I'm hearing ispointing towards Abergavenny.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's what I'm picking up.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
I don't want to move the hotel market in Abergavenny,
but you know, heads up, it'sthree bed and breakfast, isn't
it?
Yeah, you'll be cramming a lotof people into the bedrooms in
Abergavenny.
Well, don't book that flightnow In the meantime, focus on
San Diego.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Book your flight for San Diego.
It's just.
It's always a fantasticconference San Diego, so much to
offer and it also has reallygreat attendance, so you'll see
the majority of the clientsthere.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
So it enters more than an annual meeting though,
isn't it?
So what else is on your radar?
What other exciting things areyou doing?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Oh, so many exciting things, yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Etienne just pointed to me and I gave a big smile
like where is it that we start?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
well, let's go back to a little bit of what Etienne
was was saying throughout theyear that the presidents and
board members in Etienne andHeather Steinmeier, who's the
director of policy for for INTAwe have a number of delegations,
and so in in that we'reinteracting with officials that
are in certain countries, aswell as our members, and forming
(20:06):
different relationships withthose folks who are all
interested in working towards IP.
This year, I've had theprivilege of going to let's see
if I can check my passportonesia, japan, france I did go to
spain brussels, brazil, indiahelp me at the end.
(20:26):
Now it's all going bonkers wewere just in germany.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
There's some wild hand waving of here.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Here we are in the uk .
This.
This is my last delegation, andso we're saving the best for
last, but that has been truly abig focus of the year is our
policy engagement, which iswonderful.
Back to being a member-drivenorganization, the committees are
meeting monthly.
The work doesn't only happen atthe annual meeting or
(20:54):
leadership.
All of those folks are bringingup issues, working on projects.
And then we have four boardmeetings a year where we're
getting the board buy-in andfocus on strategy.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
How many?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
members 36 members.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Two-thirds are corporate members and one-third
are what we call associates, soexternal councils, and we try to
have.
We have a very globalcomposition of the board, so we
make sure to haverepresentatives from North
America, europe, africa, middleEast, asia, latin America all
around the world.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
That's very exciting.
So you mentioned you goingaround and actually there's
policy as part of your role, togo out there and get that policy
across and I'm so relieved tohear that it's kind of a global
policy, Because I think that'swhat the world definitely needs
at the moment is kind ofnon-partisan what's in the best
interests of brand owners andthe IP system.
But you need a global view onthat because if it's national,
(21:49):
then there's national interests.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, we take a lot of pride in really defending
global positions and I alwayssay we never take the, you know,
the position of one singlecompany, one single industry
sector or one single company,and we pay a lot of attention to
that.
And in fact, you know, a lot ofpeople talk about the annual
meeting and you know, and peoplehaving fun, etc.
As Dana was saying, there is alot of very serious work that is
(22:13):
done by the committeesthroughout the year.
Those committees put togetherrecommendations, position papers
, resolutions.
Proposal from a committee thenis kind of, you know, checked by
other committees that are kindof relevant to the subject
matter.
It goes to the group forapproval, it then goes to the
executive committee fordiscussion and it finally goes
(22:34):
to the board for approval and ifthe board is not comfortable
with that, the resolution goesback down and you need to rework
this, this and that.
So you know, every time INTA istaking a position, it's a very
solid one.
Now we do in terms of policymatters.
You know and I'm going toperhaps focus a little more on
trademarks now, but I could talkabout designs, I could talk
(22:55):
about copyrights, I could talkabout many other IP rights.
We, of course we look at manyissues.
First, we continue defendinginternational harmonization,
which is absolutely critical.
So that's number one, andharmonization is not just about
the treaties, it goes far beyondthat.
We of course internet governanceis a big issue and really
(23:18):
defending IP interests when itcomes to internet, I think it's
very important.
Of course, we look intoenforcement and counterfeiting
issues.
We're also very much concernedby brand restrictions and we're
more and more concerned about,for example, trade wars and how
is that going to be affecting IP?
We look at the impact oftechnology on IP.
(23:39):
Now we're working on a positionon AI.
There are 15 INTA committeesthat are working on that
position.
So you know, there's a lot ofwork that is being done and a
lot of reports that are beingproduced by INTA.
And then, you know, when we goon those delegations, it's
precisely to kind of you know,share that kind of you know,
knowledge and those kind ofpositions, and we think it's
(24:04):
very helpful to the members andit's really, you know, defending
the IP industry.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Why don't you talk a little bit more about the
position papers that we hadbefore, because I think that
would be really interesting toyour users.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
IP in space.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Yes, Right, that one there.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So we, let's say, on the one side we're looking at
position papers and resolutionson the more kind of traditional
legal staff, but we also like to, you know, look at ourselves as
a forward thinking organizationthat is thinking a little out
of the box, understanding aswell how the profession is
(24:41):
evolving, how the industry isevolving.
So we put together, forinstance, a set of think tanks
which were looking at what's therole of the in-house department
of the future, what's the roleof the IP law firm of the future
and what should be the role ofthe IP office of the future.
This is something that we didabout four years ago.
There's been additionaliterations for some of those,
particularly the one of the IPOffice of the future.
(25:02):
But at the same time we do that, we also like to look at, for
example, impact of technology onIP.
So we did kind of a set ofposition papers on metaverse and
IP, nfts and IP, and then wedid something that was a little
more crazy idea, which was aboutIP protection in the outer
space, and the idea was verysimple.
(25:23):
You know, we're seeing more andmore kind of commercial
missions going to the moon andtrying to reach Mars.
We know that there is alreadysomething about patents, but
only covering, you know, theInternational Space Station,
with some kind of very basicrules, but there is nothing else
about other IP rights.
So we put together a group ofabout 12 to 14 experts from all
(25:47):
around the world some INTAmembers, some non-INTA members,
some, of course, ipprofessionals, some non-IP
professionals and we asked themto brainstorm and come with a
set of recommendations, and sowe published a paper that, when
then we hand over to WIPO,saying that's something that you
might want to consider for thefuture, just one example.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
I'm trying to think Is this sort of trademark the
moon?
I can yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I mean, if you fly to the moon now and open up a
McDonald's, you probably don'thave to get a license from
McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Why don't you read the paper?
Speaker 4 (26:24):
first I'll tell you what.
That's the answer.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
That is a really interesting topic.
But, if I can, I'm glad you'realso doing the internet, because
you know how we know more aboutouter space than we do our own
ocean.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
I think we also know more about outer space than we
do about the internet.
I'm really pleased to hear thatyou're looking at internet
governance, because that is, weneed to get long before we sort
out space, which is reallyimportant.
Don't get me wrong, but I thinkthe internet is absolute wild
west, completely out of control.
There's different levels ofthat, but I'm interested to know
what are the hot topics ininternet governance side of
(26:55):
things.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
We really couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I'm an ITA, sorry.
I saw you putting Amazon to theother side.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
As ITA members, we really couldn't agree with you
more.
We have long been involved inICANN.
Another Internet.
Governance Forums.
But ICANN is certainly animportant one and one where we
need more openness andtransparency and predictability,
for sure.
But, as you probably know butI'll just help a little bit for
(27:24):
some of your users who might notknow the International
Corporation of Assigned Namesand Numbers is a member-driven,
bottom-up organization, also anon-profit, that has a number of
constituencies, an intellectualproperty constituency.
Every government, including theUK government, has an advisor.
There are registrars,registries, other non-profits,
(27:46):
other academics, so everybody isexchanging ideas, but with a
very different view, and so it'scritical that we're part of
that conversation.
So as we talk about domain nameabuse, as we talk about
anti-counterfeiting on theinternet, we're there
representing the rights of IPprofessionals, saying these are
(28:06):
the things that are concerningto us, and that, in turn, helps
inform the academics, helpsinform the different governments
of what the priorities ofbusiness are.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
I had an interesting insight on that when I was
traveling in Asia.
I went to an Asian country andthey wanted me to get a visa.
And they said you can get avisa online.
So I typed in country visa andI got five different websites,
each saying that they were theofficial website.
And I remember thinking gosh,that's what the trademark system
started at, wasn't it?
It was an indication of origin,and the internet hasn't got it.
(28:37):
You just don't really know whoyou're talking to.
So that seems to be such afundamental problem with the
internet at the moment that Idon't know how to solve it.
By the way, I'm assuming that'ssignificantly on your radar,
but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Well, if you can solve it, certainly let us know.
We can use your guidance, butwe also need a lot more dialogue
there, and so I'd encourageeverybody listening to certainly
get involved.
I mean share your views abouthow ip should exist on the
internet I've got more.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Oh, can you keep going?
Yeah, I'm just looking at our Iknow we can't do comparative
notes online.
It's been difficult.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
So I'm just on getting that policy together
with a whole bunch of differentcountries and and I think that's
great it's going to pull out somany.
It's going to remove so manyoutlying national interests that
don't really help aninternational debate.
Conversely, you've got so manyvoices and we have this in a
very small way with SEPA as well.
You've got different points ofview and you're trying to come
up with a policy position.
(29:36):
Do you end up with very neutralpositions in the end?
Are you able to take strongstances, or is there always a
voice somewhere that pushes youback away from being too
adventurous?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I think we do.
I think we do.
It's not always easy.
You know.
Finding compromises is always,you know, a complex issue.
Sometimes we upset a littlesome of our constituencies,
which is not ideal, but you knowit's, one day it's going to be
for you, the other day it'sgoing to be for me.
I think we need to be veryrespectful of all our different
(30:09):
constituencies and all ourdifferent, you know, industry
interests and we can probablycontinue doing a better job
listening to all and making surethat all are part of the
conversation, which is alreadythe case.
But you know, sometimes there'sbeen, you know, some kind of
positions that have been alittle more controversial
internally than others.
That happens.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I think the word that Etienne just said there that's
super important to underline isconversation.
There's very rich dialogue andthere are a lot of very smart
people who are focused in everycommittee on bringing forward
what's best for IP ownersoverall and said just that
particular position.
Yeah, and so it's that, yes,the deep conversation is the
(30:52):
deep focus, is a deep listingthat I think overall gets int
resolutions to the right resultdon't you listen to it locally
as well?
because I'm not you trying tocome to the right result and you
listen to it globally as well,because everyone knows you're
trying to come to the rightresult.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
And in fact, you know , I would add to what Dana just
mentioned this is what gives usso much credibility globally
with policymakers and withgovernments, because they can
perfectly see that, you know, onoccasions in a given country,
we're not taking the positionthat the local practitioners
might be defending.
(31:23):
So you know, it's not thatwe're kind of, you know,
self-defending our industry, theIP industry.
No, we're really looking atpromoting IP to protect the
brand owners, the owners of theIP rights, but to equally
protect the consumers.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Yeah, so that's something we tried to do here.
So in recent years we've had to.
We don't tend to use the wordrights, but to equally protect
the consumers.
Yeah, so that's something wetried to do here.
So in recent years we've had to.
We don't tend to use the wordlobbying, but kind of campaign
on a number of issues, andactually you have a more
authentic voice if you're nottalking about your members as
practitioners, but using yourmembers' voices to talk about
the broader world.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
So what does this mean?
Speaker 4 (31:58):
for society.
What does this mean for theeconomy?
What does this mean forbusiness, rather than?
What does this mean for vestedinterest?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, but I think, lee, on that one, I think what
is really important, we all kindof have some kind of, you know,
legal background, or we've beenpractitioners or we're
practitioners, but you know, weneed to think and speak the
language of the industry and weneed to talk about economy, we
need to talk about growth, weneed to talk about jobs, we need
to talk about welfare, we needto talk about innovation, and IP
(32:27):
is critical to innovation andthat is really what resonates
Actually touching on theconsumer, the public angle.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
You've got counterfeiting as another of
your big platforms.
Very important, of course.
Out of interest.
Is that more of a consumerprotection angle?
Is that brand-only protectionangle or do they become the same
thing?
It's both.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's both.
Yeah, it's both.
I mean it's consumer protection, for sure.
But you know, counterfeiting isalso, you know, defending the
interests of the companies.
But the companies are the firstones that want their consumers
to feel safe and comfortable.
So you know, that's why it'sboth.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
We had that podcast recently about the baby seat.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
And there's a huge counterfeiting issue and there's
no depth to which thecounterfeiters won't sink.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And for me, the lesson in that podcast.
This was a lady that then wenton to create a novel approach to
identifying counterfeiting andtackling it.
So having experienced it in herown, business she then looked at
sort of strategies for tacklingit online, but it was I'm sure
she won't mind me saying this itwasn't an obvious.
It was a baby chair.
(33:35):
It was a way of securing a babyinto a chair.
If you haven't got a high chair, it's not the most obvious
thing that you would counterfeit.
And that's what I findextraordinary about
counterfeiting is everythingseems to be fair game.
Now it's very scary.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You're patent people.
What's the value of a patent ifthe product can be
counterfeited?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And we see that as.
Ip professionals.
But it's not just about IPprofessionals, it's about
innovation.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
It's about research and development.
It's about jobs.
It's about the economy.
For me, that's one, yeah, whichis actually so.
Dana, reflections on your yearachievements, things you wish
you could have got done, jobsfor elizabeth so many jobs for
elizabeth, I'm making a longlist.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Uh, yeah, I should stop asking questions of the
organization, because then Ithen I make a different list of
priorities.
Reflections on the year.
How much time do you have?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Technically we've got about five, six minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And I'm going to be taking notes, by the way.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
It's not something like our Etienne is.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
obviously it is yes, etienne is extraordinary.
I think that few people see howstrategic he is, how much of a
political operator, how heunderstands the global economy,
how it all fits together and whythis matters to brand
professionals and consumers, andso the organization is very,
very lucky to have him.
And again, he did not pay me tosay that You're a great double
(34:55):
act, but we're still having beer.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Folks should really, truly understand that the
organization is in good hands asa result of Etienne's
leadership.
Other reflections on the yearthere's so much work to do, you
know, on behalf of IPprofessionals, that I think
we're only just cracking thesurface, and if we think about
fit for purpose, three to fiveto seven years on, there's a lot
of forward thinking that needsto be done, and I think that
(35:19):
INTA is leading the way.
You know, we highlighted IP inspace.
We're thinking about novel IPrights.
There's much more to be done.
But something else that hasreally surprised me is the depth
of commitment amongst ourmembers that we've been meeting
along the way.
I just, you know, gave a listof the countries that I've been
(35:40):
to.
I wasn't able to go everywherethis year.
We all split things up.
Etienne has been to China twoor three times.
We really, truly cover theworld, and I was struck on our
visit to India in October at theinvolvement at the committee
level by so many folks in thatcountry.
(36:00):
The weight of that, thecommitment of that, is really
extraordinary, and so that'ssomething that has stuck with me
.
There's so much more than whatyou see in a annual meeting.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Can I just sort of develop Willem's question a wee
bit One of the things that we'vetried to do at CIPA and we've
been successful in doing.
Historically, if you look backat the past, the presidency was
seen as something that perhapsone would take on towards the
end of a career.
So it's moving towardsretirement, or in the earliest
sort of years of retirement.
You do your year as SIPApresident when you can be the
(36:31):
kind of the leader, thefigurehead and that kind of
thing.
In recent years, certainly inmy time here we've tried to move
it towards something thatpeople can do whilst they are
still working, and I'm consciousthat you've done that.
So you've you've had a yourtime as a working president.
How have you found that thebalance?
Because you've still had a dayjob to do, yeah, I really don't
like the word balance because itimplies there's a equivalency
(36:52):
all the way across the board.
Balance doesn't always mean youget it right a little bit more
harmony, like an opera.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
You hear some more trumpets, sometimes you hear
more guitar.
Well, you know, interests arevery aligned.
I've been at Amazon for 17years.
I've been an INTA member for 24.
It is my INTA involvement, whatI've learned at INTA, that has
helped, you know, shape the IPstrategy of our company, and I
look to INTA to help train someof our early team members on,
(37:20):
you know, how is it that the lawactually works internationally
and why?
And so this has been great forus because it's, you know,
opened our eyes a little bitmore to what is going on
globally.
That's for sure.
But in terms of the, you know,the harmony or the balance, a
lot of the interests are mostcertainly aligned.
And then you fill the crackswhere you can yeah and hopefully
(37:42):
you know, take that long-termfocus of what's the, the
three-year plan, work backwardsfrom that to mechanize that and
that helps you remain organizedin both places.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
But I will say that I I've not done it incredibly
elegantly I am I'll speak out ofturn because I shouldn't speak
for my sort of current and pastpresidents, and actually william
will have a perspective on thisas well I what I've seen in
secret presidents who are alsoworking, is that in their day
jobs they've also become morestrategic, so that they've been
able to take from the presidencythis exposure on a kind of a
(38:11):
national and international scaleand take that back into the day
job, and I'm pretty sure mostof them have become more
strategic in their thinking andmore statesmanman
statesperson-like.
Is that something you've found?
Has it enhanced your job?
Speaker 5 (38:25):
You're very statesperson-like, we think.
I think we'll see.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Ask me again in a year or two and then we'll see.
But to your initial point,traditionally we saw people at
the end of their career.
Hopefully I'm just gettinggoing.
There's so much more work to do.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
There was nothing hidden in my question.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
If I may you know and witnessing quite a few
presidents you know by now, Ithink you know and talking about
you, this past year, you know,dana has been an extremely
engaged president, and this iswhat we need as an organization.
That I enjoy as a CEO, becauseyou need presidents who
challenge you.
(39:08):
You need presidents that giveyou ideas, that provide you
feedback, that care about theorganization, and this is the
beauty of INTA presidents theyreally care about the
organization, they care aboutthe members.
It's all in good faith and it'show can we do better, and this
is really highly motivationalfor you know all the staff,
(39:29):
myself included.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We all learn from each other, so remarkably so.
I talked earlier about theofficer track being about five
years.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And so you really work with.
You know past presidents forfive years, yeah, and so you
really work with you.
Know past presidents for fiveyears and now we're working with
who's coming for the next five,and that gives a lot of
consistency to the organizationbut also a lot of good, deep
conversation about where shouldwe go and why should we go there
and how do you get that?
Speaker 4 (39:54):
um, so one of our challenges always is to
rejuvenate.
So we have a council, not aboard, but it's a similar
governance organ.
In that sense, for me, one ofthe challenges is to for that to
renew itself, so perhaps forpeople to realize it's time to
move on and to encourage otherpeople to come in.
How'd you get that right?
How'd you get that move out?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
you know, at IATA it's an extremely well-oiled
machinery.
So you know, we were mentioningbefore that the board is
composed of 36 directors.
Two-thirds are corporates andone-third are firms.
Then what happens is thatone-third of the board is
rotating every year because theboard term is three years.
So you know, there is apermanent kind of you know
evolution.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
And on those three years they have to drop off or
they could restand.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
No no.
So after three years they dropoff yeah yeah, they drop off and
then the officers, as Dana wassaying, are on a kind of longer
track.
But there is a good reason forthat because you need to get
prepared to become president ofthe association and you're a
committee member.
You're kind of, you know,identified as a potential leader
.
You become potentially asubcommittee leader, then you
(41:06):
become a committee vice chairand then you become a committee
chair, and after doing that iswhen perhaps you're being
identified by the nominatingcommittee as a potential
candidate to sit on the boardone day, and so that's the way
it's working.
It's quite well organized.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
So I'm conscious.
So I'm conscious of time.
One of my jobs is to betimekeeper, isn't it?
It's much easier when you're inthe same space.
It's so much easier to controlthe time.
We've asked you lots ofquestions.
Are you sat there thinkingthank god they didn't ask us
that one is there anything youwant to give us.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
We're not hiding anything, so you can ask
whatever you want.
You asked me about annualmeeting.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah, what else?
I did have one more question inthat case, because I've seen
you with lots of presents who'syour?
Favorite?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
oh no, that's good to put him on the line, elizabeth
no, I would say it's again.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's.
It's a real pleasure.
But, like you said, lee, youknow, having you know a kind of
new president every year is agreat experience.
But, more importantly, theability of working with the
officers and with the incomingpresidents for a set of years is
absolutely delightful.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
We have the best job in the world, don't we?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
We have a very nice job.
I don't know whether it's thebest in the world, but it's a
great job.
And what is really nice and Isuppose it happens as well with
you guys but you know, we becomereal friends.
I mean there is a lot of youknow, we spend a lot of time
together, we go on delegations,we work on difficulty issues, so
(42:39):
there is really, you know, ittruly is a big family.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
So we're coming towards the end, okay, and
you're not going to give us anymore.
We've worked out that there'sno quick giveaway that's coming.
So Gwilym and I do this thingAlways easier to do when we're
on Zoom, because we can, in thechat bar we can drop one other
suggestions and things we'requite like.
Ending on a bit of a tangentialquestion that maybe isn't too
related to um, to what's beengoing on in the conversation
(43:05):
itself, but there's a little bitof a connection.
I've got one.
I don't know if it's going towork, so let's play mine out,
and if you've got anythingbetter, we can do that.
Okay, let's look.
Well, let's do mine first.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
So I've is cufflinks okay, so yeah so.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
So for the listeners, it's a pair of yellow ducks,
much like the ducks that I'vegot in my bath at home.
So the way this works is I askgrillum, we'll ask you the same
question, and then grillum willthrow it back at me what's your
most unusual item of clothing?
That that you occasionally wear?
Speaker 5 (43:36):
oh, I've actually got a really cool leather jacket
that I bought ironically about15 years ago for a fancy dress
party and it's a 1970s brownleather jacket massive lapels,
big buttons on it.
It's german, it's called echteleder written inside.
I don't know where it came from, germany it was.
And a cow yes.
Right, we've kind of narrowedit down anyway, but um, and I
(43:58):
got it from a vintage shop and Iwore it ironically to this
party, the 70s party, and nowit's the trendiest piece of
clothing I've got and I can'twear it because my kids keep
pinching it.
So that's my esoteric piece ofclothing.
I know you're going to havesomething horrible, so we'll
come to you later.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
So, etienne, other than your sort of sparkling
choice in cufflinks and Iimagine you've got a variety of
couple, I imagine I'm guessingit's your thing anything else
you'd like to share with us?
Speaker 2 (44:24):
yeah, well, I mean those, you know those kind of
ducks.
They're my daughter's favoriteones so you know, she's always
telling me that take them withyou and uh, and I like that, I
like to be a little provoked.
I'm a very classical person butI like to have a little touch
of you know, provocation.
You know, today I forgot mypink fountain pen, but normally
I'm having a very flashy pinkfountain pen and now I've become
(44:48):
a little more boring over time.
But in the past I used toreally like wearing pink
trousers, orange trousers, lightgreen, always with then grey or
blue, so that kind of littlecontrast.
I can see where your questionis going.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
While you were talking about your leather
jacket, I was immediatelythinking about my ugly Christmas
sweater collection.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
Oh, collection I do collection.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I do know that you also have ugly Christmas sweater
parties here in the UK, but mycollection is building and so
for that everybody should beworried.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
Everybody wants to have crown jewels.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Oh, I have a fantastic green one with a
Christmas tree on it where theChristmas ornaments light up.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
That's very good, oh cool it's quite dizzy, it's nice
.
Speaker 5 (45:34):
Lee, can we not do shoes, or is it going to?
Speaker 4 (45:37):
be shoes.
No, it's not going to be shoes.
Oh, excellent.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
I was just thinking of not do shoes, or is it going
to be shoes?
No, it's not going to be shoes.
Oh, excellent, just so you knowthese shoes.
Oh my golly, golly go.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
I have quite a line of outrageous shoes.
Usually they come out youhaven't been fired by CPAP.
No, no, no.
Well, it's taken them a longtime to get used to it, but now
it's expected at conferences ah,ok plus walk on music.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
I always come on to walk-on music.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
But the other thing.
So when I was getting into thesort of what does it mean to be
a chief exec?
So this was in Job BeforeZip-Up, I did a little bit of
coaching with a lady and she wasbrilliant.
And so she said, as a chiefexec, particularly if you do
public speaking, I do a fair bitof it.
You need to point thedifference.
So you trousers and yourcupboards.
So mine is not perhaps close,but it's my stick.
So I carry a very long stick.
(46:22):
You've seen my stick.
I carve them.
I make them myself, so carve aspiral up it.
My current one's got an oldmascot off of one of my first
Jags.
That's got a Jag on top, butI'll say my current one.
It was put in the storage areawhere all the stuff was coming
(46:42):
back to sleep, but when we gotback someone had taken it and it
was my pride and joy.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
I'm sorry.
I mean, somebody loved yourstick.
I'll make another one.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
I keep looking on eBay because it's so obviously
mine.
If it appears on eBay I'llrecognise it and it's just
search for jaguar walking stick.
But I've not yet, I'm not yetseeing it yeah, so I was back in
the house, yeah yeah, do youwant to do your question or no?
no, we're good, we're good,we're good, okay.
Oh, thank you both.
So much for for coming in andshowing your toddlers.
Hopefully you've enjoyed it.
Uh, we like, we like these.
We like these things to beenjoyable.
(47:13):
Uh, how much more time we'vegot in the uk till well, sunday
for me and I think for you aswell, sunday for me as well.
And then back home.
Yeah, the tour is finished,back home for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
What time for Pine Lab?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Unfortunately not.
We would love to, but we haveto meet corporate members.
So you know, we are kind of,you know, back to back.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
But you know what We'll?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
do that in San Diego A rain check.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Rain check.
Well, actually, not a raincheck for San Diego, but a sun
check for San.
Diego, I know for sure, butwe'll take you up on it.
Speaker 4 (47:43):
That's a wrap.
All we need to say is, ifyou've listened to the podcast
and you've enjoyed it in the waythat we enjoy making them,
leave us a little review on thepodcasting platform of your
choice, and that will mean evenmore people will find it, and we
very much hope that you'll takethe podcast back with you and
share it in the intercommunity.
Absolutely, we'll do that.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Thank you so much, thank you for the invitation Bye
(48:21):
.
Lee Davis and Gwilym Roberts are the two IPs in a pod
and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the CharteredInstitute of Patent Attorneys.
Speaker 4 (00:22):
We're recording Gwilym.
There you go.
Sorry, sorry, well done, leepress the button.
Yeah, sorry, well done, leepressed the button.
Yeah, I worked out how to pressthe right button.
We probably should explain thatwe're recording a podcast in
person, which is an unusualexperience for us, as you said,
except in the pub.
Except we're in a pub which,unfortunately, we're not in.
Speaker 5 (00:38):
As I jump in ahead, I guess I've already said that we
made an early error there.
Yeah, no, no, that's um badtactic, bad tactic, bad tactic
and, yeah, terribly um rude,given that we've got guests with
us in person as well.
So that is exciting.
Yeah, how you been.
I'm very well, thank you I.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I told you I got something to talk about very
exciting new president change ofpresident emotional emotional
scenes last night.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
Yeah, so this, this podcast to go out in about a
week's time and Matt will havejust a week left of his
presidency, and then we haveBobby Mukherjee coming in in
January Excellent, and of coursenot just a change of president
but a change of perspective,because Matt very much private
practice, big private practicefocus, as naturally he would
have, but I think it's workedmagnificently across all of
(01:24):
SIPA's areas of work and Bobbycoming in from an industry
in-house perspective, so that'llgive us a different focus for
next year, which is good it'sbrilliant.
Speaker 5 (01:33):
We always try and take that into account, but it's
quite useful to be told what weneed to do and farewell to
Daniel it's just emotionalscenes the whole time.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
So yeah, Daniel, drops off of the officer train
Our officers get about threeyears in the gig.
Well, apart from you, you'vebeen an officer forever.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Forever.
Yeah, I predate the.
I was here before the charter.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I'm in it.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
I'm in the original.
So yeah, that's all change atSEPA and I think that's for me.
That's one of the fascinationsabout working in the membership
association, because you do getthis changing of the guard for
us annually.
I know some people have alonger presidency that but for
us annually and it means that myjob sort of reinvents itself
every year, which is so coolyeah, definitely so.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Each president seems to come with this not an agenda,
but kind of a manifestomanifesto yeah, that's good we
need that as well.
You need that change, yeah,yeah, everyone should change
leadership every year.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Yeah whoever, whoever , absolutely, countries are
Countries, absolutely Countries,countries.
Would be a good one, wouldn'tit?
Not a bad idea.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, don't get me started.
I don't want to get started onpolitics.
No, that's not politics, it'sjust a base.
It's just too depressing.
Shall we bring our guests on.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yes, so you and I were very fortunate to go to
Inter back in May, yes, and Ithink we recorded eight or nine
podcasts there, tiring, wasn'tit at times?
Speaker 5 (02:48):
It was a bit yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:50):
I think we did four or five in one day, which was
exhausting, and our colleaguesfrom Inter looked after us
magnificently.
They did.
We really appreciate theopportunity to go there and
record the podcast, and so wehave Dana and Etienne with us
today.
Who wants to go there andrecord the podcast?
And so we have Dana and Etiennewith us today.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Who wants to go first ?
Who?
Speaker 4 (03:06):
wants to introduce themselves first.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
You go.
I know I feel like we'replaying rock scissors paper, for
who introduces themselves first?
I'm Dana Brown-Northcott.
I'm the Vice President ofIntellectual Property at
Amazoncom, manage the Trademarks, brands, portfolio, public
policy, from time to time,domain names, internet
governance and the like.
It's a mixed bag.
I am also privileged to saythat I'm the 2024 INTA president
(03:32):
, so I'm so glad to hear thatyou attended our annual meeting.
Hope you had a good time.
I had a great time and, as youwere reflecting on your
organization and change inpresidency, we've got the same
thing.
And so here we are on the whereare we?
4th, 5th, 6th December?
You'll play us a week time.
So you know you could considerme a lame duck at this point,
(03:53):
because we will have a change inpresident on January 1st.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Oh, you do January 1st as well.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yes, she's fantastic.
Her name is Elizabeth StewartBradley and she is the head of
trademarks at Bristol-MyersSquibb, etienne and the like,
and INTA are going to be in verygood hands with her.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That's excellent, Etienne introduce yourself, sir
Sure.
So firstly, willem, thanks somuch for having us.
Etienne Saint-D'Arthur, intaCEO, and I like very much what
(04:31):
you said about you know being a,you know, a ceo of a membership
association.
You know changing president ona yearly basis, which is, you
know, always, you know, anexciting experience.
But I like to say that you knowthe ceo of an organization is
always the bad student, is theone that remains, you know the
same position and the goodstudents are the presidents who
are moving on, so this is wherewe are I like to think it get
away with it again.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
I can reinvent myself and no one remembers how bad I
really was the previous year.
I've been with Lee as honorarysecretary for a long time, lee.
Speaker 5 (04:54):
You just work.
You get the best out ofeverybody.
Oh, thank you.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I don't know if you feel the same, Etienne, but I
feel it's a great privilege tobe the chief exec of a
particular professionalmembership association and I
always describe it to people whosometimes people think it's a
bit like being chief exec of acorporate, and it's not.
You're more the guardian,aren't you?
You're kind of looking afterthis organization for the
members and that's a really sortof privileged place to be.
I think it is.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
It is an extremely privileged position to be, you
know, and I think it's probablythe same that you have here at
SIPA, but our members are verypassionate about INTA and we are
a staff myself included and wetake our role very seriously.
There's a lot of fun, there's alot of work, but, yeah, you're
kind of the guardian of theorganization.
You want to make sure that itworks well, that it continues
(05:42):
evolving on a permanent basis,and what is really a unique
experience is the ability of youknow, in my case working with
incredible staff, with anincredible board of directors,
with officers, and with anincoming president every year
with kind of a slightlydifferent approach, perspective,
ideas, and you learn fromeveryone.
Speaker 5 (06:04):
I personally love it.
What have you learned from Dana?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, I think she's been, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Incredible.
I'm not saying.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
And she knows it and I'm gonna say to them you know,
you know, it was veryinteresting because the way we
we kind of on board thePresident is, at the beginning
of January we have what we callinterweek, where we bring all
our staff into the officebecause a lot of people are now
working remote and we have thepresident and the council who
(06:34):
are coming as well, kind ofintroducing themselves, getting
to understand better how we workinternally.
And it was very interestingthis back January.
So Dana came in and she had somany questions, but so many
great and incredible questionsthat I thought, hmm, that's
going to be an interesting yearit's going to be different.
(06:55):
She's going to bring a differentperspective, but it's really.
You know, it's a joy.
And, Dana, what was?
Speaker 4 (07:01):
that experience?
Like for you, I did not pay himto say that.
But maybe later I'll try toapply in in the way that we do
at sepa.
So we have a vice president fora year.
Progress to be the presidentand then serve another year as
the past president.
Is that the same sort ofarrangement?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
yes, it is, but we also have a longer officer track
so we have a secretary, atreasurer, two vice presidents
oh wow and then the president isin a non-voting capacity and is
able to participate in boardmeetings for, I think, two years
at the end Was it three yearsand then roll off, but more as
an advisor to keep things level,but not necessarily someone who
(07:39):
controls strategy.
Speaker 4 (07:40):
So it's more figurehead than leadership,
perhaps.
Speaker 5 (07:45):
There is also if know .
Speaker 2 (07:46):
If I may, no, please.
What I think is really nice isthat with every president there
is a very strong, very solidinteraction that has been
prepared prior to thepresidential year.
And then we have weeklymeetings.
We discuss a lot of things andwe're always thinking how can we
(08:07):
improve the organization?
What are we going to be doing?
Of course, you know many peoplejust see, at INTA annual
meeting, leadership meeting,there is much, much more.
I mean, here we're now on akind of what we call a
delegation and we've done quitea few of those delegations where
, you know, we travel togetherwith some key staff, we meet
members in different countries,but we also meet a lot of you
(08:29):
know policymakers, you knowheads of IP offices.
So there is there is really abound that is created over time
and and a lot of trust and a lotof working together cool.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
So it's a core leadership meeting yeah, yeah
co-leadership, if I may say whenshould we start.
I'd quite like to talk aboutthe conference.
Do you call it a conference?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Inter Is that what it ?
Speaker 4 (08:49):
is Because it's a big old gig, isn't it?
Speaker 5 (08:51):
It was your first one and my second it was my first
one.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, thumbly enjoyable, hugely exhausting
because it's so large.
Just to walk around isexhausting, isn't it?
How do you put that together?
How, how much work goes intothat uh well, it's a lot of work
.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
We're extremely fortunate to have a very
professional team that islooking into the kind of
operational side of things, butalso, you know, putting the
right context so that it'smeaningful to the members.
And yeah, I mean uh, so yousaid, your first one was this
year okay, was it plant up whichwas which?
Speaker 5 (09:23):
I went to Barcelona a few years ago.
Okay, 2017.
Yeah, Good.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
So you know, it's about 10,000 to 12,000 attendees
from all around the world, soit's a massive event.
Speaker 5 (09:34):
It's like a lower league football game, but for a
week.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Depends which team you are.
But yeah, it's.
We kind of.
You know, we start planning theannual meeting, in terms of the
venue, at least three to fiveyears in advance, Because you
need to find, you know, theright spot and you know there
are a lot of, you know issuesthat need to be looked at and
then, in terms of theprogramming for the meeting,
(10:01):
it's about, I would say, between14 to 18 months preparatory
work.
So it's a lot of work.
So by the time you know we getthere, we're all already
exhausted, but very excitedabout it and already doing the
next one as well.
So kind of, yeah, permanently,but very excited about it and
already doing the next one aswell.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Yeah, kind of yeah, the next three to five
Permanently planning.
We have an annual conference,and so ours is largely driven by
volunteers, so it's our membersthat drive the content.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Clearly, we have a staff team who look after the
logistics and everything.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
But yeah so it's a year in the planning.
We deliver the conference andthe next day they're thinking
about next year's.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
It's way they're thinking about next year's.
It's absolutely the same,really truly the same, and we
take the learnings from beforeand then we move on.
Something that I really likeabout annual meeting is that
there's there's something foreveryone, really truly.
You're either connecting withyour in-house folks, you're
meeting outside council that youwant to hire in a particular
jurisdiction or work through anissue.
The content is very rich and atevery level, and so you know,
entry trademark attorneys cancome and learn something new.
Those who've been practicingfor a long time can have a
(11:04):
different strategic conversationabout what they've learned in
their practice.
And so it is not, you know,it's not all parties.
It's a lot of learning, it's alot of CLE, it's a lot of making
connections and, as a result,it makes everything better.
But, lee, to your point, we area member-driven organization,
(11:25):
and so the needs and what it isthat we're hoping to achieve
coming out of the conference ismember-driven bottoms up.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
How many members?
How many members?
About 6,500 organizations.
Organizations, so it'scompanies and firms, and I would
say we have about 30,000 to35,000 individuals who are
somehow involved in theactivities of the association
Through those companyaffiliations.
(11:52):
So yeah, I mean through thoseeither company or firm
affiliations, and then we'revery much committee-driven.
So we have about 120 betweencommittees and subcommittees.
Now, not every individual getsinto a committee.
We have about 4,500 individualswho are on committees.
Some are more active thanothers, so that's basically the
(12:15):
membership of INTA.
I mean, here in the UK we haveabout 260 firms.
We have, if I remembercorrectly, 57 corporations that
are members and I would say theUK practitioners are very active
within INTA.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
Are you going to see all of those while you're here?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
We'd have to stay many, many months in order to do
that.
Speaker 5 (12:38):
Yeah, my firm sent sent.
I think all of our trademarkpartners are in new orleans
recently.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah, we had our leadership meeting.
We take it super seriously.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
So I'm a patent attorney, okay, um, so you know
there's no p in inter, but Ithink, I think that it's
becoming the ip hub, not only,only the organisation we can get
to that, but certainly thatmeeting is becoming potentially
not just the trademark hubmeeting but possibly the IP hub
meeting.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
We can certainly work so.
Speaker 5 (13:06):
I'm going on the right tracks because I'm
basically, if you're one, inAtlanta.
I basically reached out to myUS clients and said can I visit
you or we can meet at Intune.
Yeah, we'll come to Atlanta andsuddenly I had all my meetings,
all my get-togethers in oneplace.
And this is all.
Patent clients, basically.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
But we've got to trade my game, or maybe, but you
know.
But no, you're absolutely right, will.
There is no D in Inter, but wedo designs.
There is no C in Inter, but wedo copyrights.
There is no D, but we do dataprivacy.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Do you need some branding advice?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I think you know INTA has been evolving over time and
that was a kind of you know, Ithink it was a good decision and
it was a smart move from theboard of directors and the idea
was we need to look at IP morefrom a more kind of holistic
approach and really looking atall kind of IP rights.
It's true that you know notreally into patents, but even
(14:05):
today you know you need to lookat all IP rights somehow with
some level of connection.
And to your point, yes, thereare quite a few patent attorneys
that come to our annual meeting, to the point that little by
little, we've been adding somesessions that are not
necessarily purelypatent-related but have some
connections with patents, andthey're well attended.
We have a patent reception atINTA annual meeting already for
(14:28):
years and I've seen 400 or 500patent attorneys at that
reception.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
So, yes, that's a fact, that's happening.
Next question we can cut if?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
you don't like it.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
So who are your competitors on the patent side
in terms of providing thatglobal hub?
So we don't look at anyone as acompetitor.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
That's a starting point and I'm not trying to be
politically correct.
I think, we truly believe thatwe all need to work together
because it's all about IP andit's all about promoting IP.
I think you know the beauty ofyou know what we have today is
that each organization has kindof its niche.
For example, if we look atglobal IP organizations, I would
(15:10):
immediately think about AIPPI.
They're great.
They're perhaps a little moreacademic than what INTA is.
That doesn't mean that INTA isnot doing a very strong, solid
academic work, but we'reinitially we're an association
of brand owners and that remainskind of the focus of INTA.
(15:30):
So this is where you know thereis a nuance.
And then, of course, you knowyou have more regional
organizations, you have moreglobal organizations, you have
national organizations.
What we like to do is really tointeract with all of those as
much as possible.
We might not be always alignedon everything, but at least the
bottom line should be the same.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
If I can pile on to that, and this is something that
Etienne emphasizes a lot, andthis is something that Etienne
emphasizes a lot, but as aprofessional brand owner
association.
The role of an IP professionalis not silent not necessarily
anymore and so it's important tothink of ourselves as not a
four-letter acronym.
But I don't know, etienne, howmany other letters you listed
(16:12):
out.
You said that, william.
You said we needed a longeracronym.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
It's true, I've got PINDACT.
Tell me about it.
We need some help you said that, William.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
you said we needed a longer acronym.
It's true, I've got PINDACT.
How is that?
Tell me about it.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
We need some help with rebranding, but we are more
because the role of the IPprofessional is changing and
needs to do more.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Yeah, so any exciting news about where we might find
the inter-annual meeting in thefuture?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Is there anything you can share with us?
Breaking?
Speaker 2 (16:34):
news on the 26th, I don't remember.
No, the only thing I can tellyou is we and this is public
we're planning to go to Dubai.
I think for good reasons, wedecided to move that meeting to
2029.
Still committed to go to Dubaibecause the region is booming
(16:57):
from an IP perspective and it'sextremely important, but it was
probably better for all ourmembers to kind of, you know,
wait a little more and delaythat.
That, of course, has opened aspot for 2026.
There are many options still onthe table, heard, many of them,
like you probably have, becausethis is why you're asking that
question, like you probably have, because this is why you're
(17:17):
asking that question.
What I would say as well is youknow any of those venues, and
any venue we pick is normally,you know, a great city to INTA,
is a great host, but there are alot of parameters that we need
to consider, and one of theimportant parameters is to get
you know a sufficiently bighotel block.
Yeah, that is, you know, thatcan accommodate, you know, our
(17:39):
community.
Now, when members are trying toguess that in advance and are
trying and are putting the namesout there, that is making our
life more difficult to signthose contracts, and that's
basically, is increasing theprice of the hotel rooms, so it
goes against the interest of themembers.
Now, it's very difficult for meto explain to every individual
who's asking me what should isincreasing the price of the
hotel rooms, so it goes againstthe interest of the members.
Now, it's very difficult for meto explain to every individual
(18:01):
who's asking me what should be.
You know so, but trust us, itwill be.
You know, a great venue.
What we do as well and that'sagain, you know, something that
was agreed by the board is thatevery third year, we're bringing
our annual meeting outsideNorth America, and that's
something that we're keeping asa kind of rule because we think
(18:22):
it's a great opportunity tointeract with, you know,
potential new members, newconstituencies.
We weren't in Singapore.
We perhaps lost some of youknow Europeans or North
Americans in terms of attendance, but instead we had, you know,
quite a few new attendees fromAsia, and that's always
(18:42):
interesting, as any organizationwe need to think about.
You know, growth and you knowwhat's the future about.
Speaker 5 (18:47):
So what are you predicting, lee?
I'm going based on everythingyou said.
I would love to do predictions.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Just explain to us.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Everything I'm hearing is pointing towards
Abergavenny.
That's what I'm hearing ispointing towards Abergavenny.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
That's what I'm picking up.
Speaker 5 (18:59):
I don't want to move the hotel market in Abergavenny,
but you know, heads up, it'sthree bed and breakfast, isn't
it?
Yeah, you'll be cramming a lotof people into the bedrooms in
Abergavenny.
Well, don't book that flightnow In the meantime, focus on
San Diego.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Book your flight for San Diego.
It's just.
It's always a fantasticconference San Diego, so much to
offer and it also has reallygreat attendance, so you'll see
the majority of the clientsthere.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
So it enters more than an annual meeting though,
isn't it?
So what else is on your radar?
What other exciting things areyou doing?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Oh, so many exciting things, yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Etienne just pointed to me and I gave a big smile
like where is it that we start?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
well, let's go back to a little bit of what Etienne
was was saying throughout theyear that the presidents and
board members in Etienne andHeather Steinmeier, who's the
director of policy for for INTAwe have a number of delegations,
and so in in that we'reinteracting with officials that
are in certain countries, aswell as our members, and forming
(20:06):
different relationships withthose folks who are all
interested in working towards IP.
This year, I've had theprivilege of going to let's see
if I can check my passportonesia, japan, france I did go to
spain brussels, brazil, indiahelp me at the end.
(20:26):
Now it's all going bonkers wewere just in germany.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
There's some wild hand waving of here.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Here we are in the uk .
This.
This is my last delegation, andso we're saving the best for
last, but that has been truly abig focus of the year is our
policy engagement, which iswonderful.
Back to being a member-drivenorganization, the committees are
meeting monthly.
The work doesn't only happen atthe annual meeting or
(20:54):
leadership.
All of those folks are bringingup issues, working on projects.
And then we have four boardmeetings a year where we're
getting the board buy-in andfocus on strategy.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
How many?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
members 36 members.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Two-thirds are corporate members and one-third
are what we call associates, soexternal councils, and we try to
have.
We have a very globalcomposition of the board, so we
make sure to haverepresentatives from North
America, europe, africa, middleEast, asia, latin America all
around the world.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
That's very exciting.
So you mentioned you goingaround and actually there's
policy as part of your role, togo out there and get that policy
across and I'm so relieved tohear that it's kind of a global
policy, Because I think that'swhat the world definitely needs
at the moment is kind ofnon-partisan what's in the best
interests of brand owners andthe IP system.
But you need a global view onthat because if it's national,
(21:49):
then there's national interests.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Well, we take a lot of pride in really defending
global positions and I alwayssay we never take the, you know,
the position of one singlecompany, one single industry
sector or one single company,and we pay a lot of attention to
that.
And in fact, you know, a lot ofpeople talk about the annual
meeting and you know, and peoplehaving fun, etc.
As Dana was saying, there is alot of very serious work that is
(22:13):
done by the committeesthroughout the year.
Those committees put togetherrecommendations, position papers
, resolutions.
Proposal from a committee thenis kind of, you know, checked by
other committees that are kindof relevant to the subject
matter.
It goes to the group forapproval, it then goes to the
executive committee fordiscussion and it finally goes
(22:34):
to the board for approval and ifthe board is not comfortable
with that, the resolution goesback down and you need to rework
this, this and that.
So you know, every time INTA istaking a position, it's a very
solid one.
Now we do in terms of policymatters.
You know and I'm going toperhaps focus a little more on
trademarks now, but I could talkabout designs, I could talk
(22:55):
about copyrights, I could talkabout many other IP rights.
We, of course we look at manyissues.
First, we continue defendinginternational harmonization,
which is absolutely critical.
So that's number one, andharmonization is not just about
the treaties, it goes far beyondthat.
We of course internet governanceis a big issue and really
(23:18):
defending IP interests when itcomes to internet, I think it's
very important.
Of course, we look intoenforcement and counterfeiting
issues.
We're also very much concernedby brand restrictions and we're
more and more concerned about,for example, trade wars and how
is that going to be affecting IP?
We look at the impact oftechnology on IP.
(23:39):
Now we're working on a positionon AI.
There are 15 INTA committeesthat are working on that
position.
So you know, there's a lot ofwork that is being done and a
lot of reports that are beingproduced by INTA.
And then, you know, when we goon those delegations, it's
precisely to kind of you know,share that kind of you know,
knowledge and those kind ofpositions, and we think it's
(24:04):
very helpful to the members andit's really, you know, defending
the IP industry.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Why don't you talk a little bit more about the
position papers that we hadbefore, because I think that
would be really interesting toyour users.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
IP in space.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Yes, Right, that one there.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
So we, let's say, on the one side we're looking at
position papers and resolutionson the more kind of traditional
legal staff, but we also like to, you know, look at ourselves as
a forward thinking organizationthat is thinking a little out
of the box, understanding aswell how the profession is
(24:41):
evolving, how the industry isevolving.
So we put together, forinstance, a set of think tanks
which were looking at what's therole of the in-house department
of the future, what's the roleof the IP law firm of the future
and what should be the role ofthe IP office of the future.
This is something that we didabout four years ago.
There's been additionaliterations for some of those,
particularly the one of the IPOffice of the future.
(25:02):
But at the same time we do that, we also like to look at, for
example, impact of technology onIP.
So we did kind of a set ofposition papers on metaverse and
IP, nfts and IP, and then wedid something that was a little
more crazy idea, which was aboutIP protection in the outer
space, and the idea was verysimple.
(25:23):
You know, we're seeing more andmore kind of commercial
missions going to the moon andtrying to reach Mars.
We know that there is alreadysomething about patents, but
only covering, you know, theInternational Space Station,
with some kind of very basicrules, but there is nothing else
about other IP rights.
So we put together a group ofabout 12 to 14 experts from all
(25:47):
around the world some INTAmembers, some non-INTA members,
some, of course, ipprofessionals, some non-IP
professionals and we asked themto brainstorm and come with a
set of recommendations, and sowe published a paper that, when
then we hand over to WIPO,saying that's something that you
might want to consider for thefuture, just one example.
Speaker 4 (26:10):
I'm trying to think Is this sort of trademark the
moon?
I can yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
I mean, if you fly to the moon now and open up a
McDonald's, you probably don'thave to get a license from
McDonald's.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Why don't you read the paper?
Speaker 4 (26:24):
first I'll tell you what.
That's the answer.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
That is a really interesting topic.
But, if I can, I'm glad you'realso doing the internet, because
you know how we know more aboutouter space than we do our own
ocean.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
I think we also know more about outer space than we
do about the internet.
I'm really pleased to hear thatyou're looking at internet
governance, because that is, weneed to get long before we sort
out space, which is reallyimportant.
Don't get me wrong, but I thinkthe internet is absolute wild
west, completely out of control.
There's different levels ofthat, but I'm interested to know
what are the hot topics ininternet governance side of
(26:55):
things.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
We really couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
I'm an ITA, sorry.
I saw you putting Amazon to theother side.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
As ITA members, we really couldn't agree with you
more.
We have long been involved inICANN.
Another Internet.
Governance Forums.
But ICANN is certainly animportant one and one where we
need more openness andtransparency and predictability,
for sure.
But, as you probably know butI'll just help a little bit for
(27:24):
some of your users who might notknow the International
Corporation of Assigned Namesand Numbers is a member-driven,
bottom-up organization, also anon-profit, that has a number of
constituencies, an intellectualproperty constituency.
Every government, including theUK government, has an advisor.
There are registrars,registries, other non-profits,
(27:46):
other academics, so everybody isexchanging ideas, but with a
very different view, and so it'scritical that we're part of
that conversation.
So as we talk about domain nameabuse, as we talk about
anti-counterfeiting on theinternet, we're there
representing the rights of IPprofessionals, saying these are
(28:06):
the things that are concerningto us, and that, in turn, helps
inform the academics, helpsinform the different governments
of what the priorities ofbusiness are.
Speaker 5 (28:15):
I had an interesting insight on that when I was
traveling in Asia.
I went to an Asian country andthey wanted me to get a visa.
And they said you can get avisa online.
So I typed in country visa andI got five different websites,
each saying that they were theofficial website.
And I remember thinking gosh,that's what the trademark system
started at, wasn't it?
It was an indication of origin,and the internet hasn't got it.
(28:37):
You just don't really know whoyou're talking to.
So that seems to be such afundamental problem with the
internet at the moment that Idon't know how to solve it.
By the way, I'm assuming that'ssignificantly on your radar,
but I don't know.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Well, if you can solve it, certainly let us know.
We can use your guidance, butwe also need a lot more dialogue
there, and so I'd encourageeverybody listening to certainly
get involved.
I mean share your views abouthow ip should exist on the
internet I've got more.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Oh, can you keep going?
Yeah, I'm just looking at our Iknow we can't do comparative
notes online.
It's been difficult.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
So I'm just on getting that policy together
with a whole bunch of differentcountries and and I think that's
great it's going to pull out somany.
It's going to remove so manyoutlying national interests that
don't really help aninternational debate.
Conversely, you've got so manyvoices and we have this in a
very small way with SEPA as well.
You've got different points ofview and you're trying to come
up with a policy position.
(29:36):
Do you end up with very neutralpositions in the end?
Are you able to take strongstances, or is there always a
voice somewhere that pushes youback away from being too
adventurous?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I think we do.
I think we do.
It's not always easy.
You know.
Finding compromises is always,you know, a complex issue.
Sometimes we upset a littlesome of our constituencies,
which is not ideal, but you knowit's, one day it's going to be
for you, the other day it'sgoing to be for me.
I think we need to be veryrespectful of all our different
(30:09):
constituencies and all ourdifferent, you know, industry
interests and we can probablycontinue doing a better job
listening to all and making surethat all are part of the
conversation, which is alreadythe case.
But you know, sometimes there'sbeen, you know, some kind of
positions that have been alittle more controversial
internally than others.
That happens.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I think the word that Etienne just said there that's
super important to underline isconversation.
There's very rich dialogue andthere are a lot of very smart
people who are focused in everycommittee on bringing forward
what's best for IP ownersoverall and said just that
particular position.
Yeah, and so it's that, yes,the deep conversation is the
(30:52):
deep focus, is a deep listingthat I think overall gets int
resolutions to the right resultdon't you listen to it locally
as well?
because I'm not you trying tocome to the right result and you
listen to it globally as well,because everyone knows you're
trying to come to the rightresult.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
And in fact, you know , I would add to what Dana just
mentioned this is what gives usso much credibility globally
with policymakers and withgovernments, because they can
perfectly see that, you know, onoccasions in a given country,
we're not taking the positionthat the local practitioners
might be defending.
(31:23):
So you know, it's not thatwe're kind of, you know,
self-defending our industry, theIP industry.
No, we're really looking atpromoting IP to protect the
brand owners, the owners of theIP rights, but to equally
protect the consumers.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Yeah, so that's something we tried to do here.
So in recent years we've had to.
We don't tend to use the wordrights, but to equally protect
the consumers.
Yeah, so that's something wetried to do here.
So in recent years we've had to.
We don't tend to use the wordlobbying, but kind of campaign
on a number of issues, andactually you have a more
authentic voice if you're nottalking about your members as
practitioners, but using yourmembers' voices to talk about
the broader world.
Speaker 3 (31:57):
So what does this mean?
Speaker 4 (31:58):
for society.
What does this mean for theeconomy?
What does this mean forbusiness, rather than?
What does this mean for vestedinterest?
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Yeah, but I think, lee, on that one, I think what
is really important, we all kindof have some kind of, you know,
legal background, or we've beenpractitioners or we're
practitioners, but you know, weneed to think and speak the
language of the industry and weneed to talk about economy, we
need to talk about growth, weneed to talk about jobs, we need
to talk about welfare, we needto talk about innovation, and IP
(32:27):
is critical to innovation andthat is really what resonates
Actually touching on theconsumer, the public angle.
Speaker 5 (32:34):
You've got counterfeiting as another of
your big platforms.
Very important, of course.
Out of interest.
Is that more of a consumerprotection angle?
Is that brand-only protectionangle or do they become the same
thing?
It's both.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
It's both.
Yeah, it's both.
I mean it's consumer protection, for sure.
But you know, counterfeiting isalso, you know, defending the
interests of the companies.
But the companies are the firstones that want their consumers
to feel safe and comfortable.
So you know, that's why it'sboth.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
We had that podcast recently about the baby seat.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (33:05):
And there's a huge counterfeiting issue and there's
no depth to which thecounterfeiters won't sink.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And for me, the lesson in that podcast.
This was a lady that then wenton to create a novel approach to
identifying counterfeiting andtackling it.
So having experienced it in herown, business she then looked at
sort of strategies for tacklingit online, but it was I'm sure
she won't mind me saying this itwasn't an obvious.
It was a baby chair.
(33:35):
It was a way of securing a babyinto a chair.
If you haven't got a high chair, it's not the most obvious
thing that you would counterfeit.
And that's what I findextraordinary about
counterfeiting is everythingseems to be fair game.
Now it's very scary.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You're patent people.
What's the value of a patent ifthe product can be
counterfeited?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And we see that as.
Ip professionals.
But it's not just about IPprofessionals, it's about
innovation.
Speaker 5 (34:04):
It's about research and development.
It's about jobs.
It's about the economy.
For me, that's one, yeah, whichis actually so.
Dana, reflections on your yearachievements, things you wish
you could have got done, jobsfor elizabeth so many jobs for
elizabeth, I'm making a longlist.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Uh, yeah, I should stop asking questions of the
organization, because then Ithen I make a different list of
priorities.
Reflections on the year.
How much time do you have?
Speaker 4 (34:26):
Technically we've got about five, six minutes.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
And I'm going to be taking notes, by the way.
Speaker 5 (34:32):
It's not something like our Etienne is.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
obviously it is yes, etienne is extraordinary.
I think that few people see howstrategic he is, how much of a
political operator, how heunderstands the global economy,
how it all fits together and whythis matters to brand
professionals and consumers, andso the organization is very,
very lucky to have him.
And again, he did not pay me tosay that You're a great double
(34:55):
act, but we're still having beer.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Folks should really, truly understand that the
organization is in good hands asa result of Etienne's
leadership.
Other reflections on the yearthere's so much work to do, you
know, on behalf of IPprofessionals, that I think
we're only just cracking thesurface, and if we think about
fit for purpose, three to fiveto seven years on, there's a lot
of forward thinking that needsto be done, and I think that
(35:19):
INTA is leading the way.
You know, we highlighted IP inspace.
We're thinking about novel IPrights.
There's much more to be done.
But something else that hasreally surprised me is the depth
of commitment amongst ourmembers that we've been meeting
along the way.
I just, you know, gave a listof the countries that I've been
(35:40):
to.
I wasn't able to go everywherethis year.
We all split things up.
Etienne has been to China twoor three times.
We really, truly cover theworld, and I was struck on our
visit to India in October at theinvolvement at the committee
level by so many folks in thatcountry.
(36:00):
The weight of that, thecommitment of that, is really
extraordinary, and so that'ssomething that has stuck with me
.
There's so much more than whatyou see in a annual meeting.
Speaker 4 (36:11):
Can I just sort of develop Willem's question a wee
bit One of the things that we'vetried to do at CIPA and we've
been successful in doing.
Historically, if you look backat the past, the presidency was
seen as something that perhapsone would take on towards the
end of a career.
So it's moving towardsretirement, or in the earliest
sort of years of retirement.
You do your year as SIPApresident when you can be the
(36:31):
kind of the leader, thefigurehead and that kind of
thing.
In recent years, certainly inmy time here we've tried to move
it towards something thatpeople can do whilst they are
still working, and I'm consciousthat you've done that.
So you've you've had a yourtime as a working president.
How have you found that thebalance?
Because you've still had a dayjob to do, yeah, I really don't
like the word balance because itimplies there's a equivalency
(36:52):
all the way across the board.
Balance doesn't always mean youget it right a little bit more
harmony, like an opera.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
You hear some more trumpets, sometimes you hear
more guitar.
Well, you know, interests arevery aligned.
I've been at Amazon for 17years.
I've been an INTA member for 24.
It is my INTA involvement, whatI've learned at INTA, that has
helped, you know, shape the IPstrategy of our company, and I
look to INTA to help train someof our early team members on,
(37:20):
you know, how is it that the lawactually works internationally
and why?
And so this has been great forus because it's, you know,
opened our eyes a little bitmore to what is going on
globally.
That's for sure.
But in terms of the, you know,the harmony or the balance, a
lot of the interests are mostcertainly aligned.
And then you fill the crackswhere you can yeah and hopefully
(37:42):
you know, take that long-termfocus of what's the, the
three-year plan, work backwardsfrom that to mechanize that and
that helps you remain organizedin both places.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
But I will say that I I've not done it incredibly
elegantly I am I'll speak out ofturn because I shouldn't speak
for my sort of current and pastpresidents, and actually william
will have a perspective on thisas well I what I've seen in
secret presidents who are alsoworking, is that in their day
jobs they've also become morestrategic, so that they've been
able to take from the presidencythis exposure on a kind of a
(38:11):
national and international scaleand take that back into the day
job, and I'm pretty sure mostof them have become more
strategic in their thinking andmore statesmanman
statesperson-like.
Is that something you've found?
Has it enhanced your job?
Speaker 5 (38:25):
You're very statesperson-like, we think.
I think we'll see.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Ask me again in a year or two and then we'll see.
But to your initial point,traditionally we saw people at
the end of their career.
Hopefully I'm just gettinggoing.
There's so much more work to do.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
There was nothing hidden in my question.
I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
If I may you know and witnessing quite a few
presidents you know by now, Ithink you know and talking about
you, this past year, you know,dana has been an extremely
engaged president, and this iswhat we need as an organization.
That I enjoy as a CEO, becauseyou need presidents who
challenge you.
(39:08):
You need presidents that giveyou ideas, that provide you
feedback, that care about theorganization, and this is the
beauty of INTA presidents theyreally care about the
organization, they care aboutthe members.
It's all in good faith and it'show can we do better, and this
is really highly motivationalfor you know all the staff,
(39:29):
myself included.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
We all learn from each other, so remarkably so.
I talked earlier about theofficer track being about five
years.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And so you really work with.
You know past presidents forfive years, yeah, and so you
really work with you.
Know past presidents for fiveyears and now we're working with
who's coming for the next five,and that gives a lot of
consistency to the organizationbut also a lot of good, deep
conversation about where shouldwe go and why should we go there
and how do you get that?
Speaker 4 (39:54):
um, so one of our challenges always is to
rejuvenate.
So we have a council, not aboard, but it's a similar
governance organ.
In that sense, for me, one ofthe challenges is to for that to
renew itself, so perhaps forpeople to realize it's time to
move on and to encourage otherpeople to come in.
How'd you get that right?
How'd you get that move out?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
you know, at IATA it's an extremely well-oiled
machinery.
So you know, we were mentioningbefore that the board is
composed of 36 directors.
Two-thirds are corporates andone-third are firms.
Then what happens is thatone-third of the board is
rotating every year because theboard term is three years.
So you know, there is apermanent kind of you know
evolution.
Speaker 4 (40:33):
And on those three years they have to drop off or
they could restand.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
No no.
So after three years they dropoff yeah yeah, they drop off and
then the officers, as Dana wassaying, are on a kind of longer
track.
But there is a good reason forthat because you need to get
prepared to become president ofthe association and you're a
committee member.
You're kind of, you know,identified as a potential leader
.
You become potentially asubcommittee leader, then you
(41:06):
become a committee vice chairand then you become a committee
chair, and after doing that iswhen perhaps you're being
identified by the nominatingcommittee as a potential
candidate to sit on the boardone day, and so that's the way
it's working.
It's quite well organized.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
So I'm conscious.
So I'm conscious of time.
One of my jobs is to betimekeeper, isn't it?
It's much easier when you're inthe same space.
It's so much easier to controlthe time.
We've asked you lots ofquestions.
Are you sat there thinkingthank god they didn't ask us
that one is there anything youwant to give us.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
We're not hiding anything, so you can ask
whatever you want.
You asked me about annualmeeting.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah, what else?
I did have one more question inthat case, because I've seen
you with lots of presents who'syour?
Favorite?
Speaker 3 (41:45):
oh no, that's good to put him on the line, elizabeth
no, I would say it's again.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
It's.
It's a real pleasure.
But, like you said, lee, youknow, having you know a kind of
new president every year is agreat experience.
But, more importantly, theability of working with the
officers and with the incomingpresidents for a set of years is
absolutely delightful.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
We have the best job in the world, don't we?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
We have a very nice job.
I don't know whether it's thebest in the world, but it's a
great job.
And what is really nice and Isuppose it happens as well with
you guys but you know, we becomereal friends.
I mean there is a lot of youknow, we spend a lot of time
together, we go on delegations,we work on difficulty issues, so
(42:39):
there is really, you know, ittruly is a big family.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
So we're coming towards the end, okay, and
you're not going to give us anymore.
We've worked out that there'sno quick giveaway that's coming.
So Gwilym and I do this thingAlways easier to do when we're
on Zoom, because we can, in thechat bar we can drop one other
suggestions and things we'requite like.
Ending on a bit of a tangentialquestion that maybe isn't too
related to um, to what's beengoing on in the conversation
(43:05):
itself, but there's a little bitof a connection.
I've got one.
I don't know if it's going towork, so let's play mine out,
and if you've got anythingbetter, we can do that.
Okay, let's look.
Well, let's do mine first.
Speaker 5 (43:19):
So I've is cufflinks okay, so yeah so.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
So for the listeners, it's a pair of yellow ducks,
much like the ducks that I'vegot in my bath at home.
So the way this works is I askgrillum, we'll ask you the same
question, and then grillum willthrow it back at me what's your
most unusual item of clothing?
That that you occasionally wear?
Speaker 5 (43:36):
oh, I've actually got a really cool leather jacket
that I bought ironically about15 years ago for a fancy dress
party and it's a 1970s brownleather jacket massive lapels,
big buttons on it.
It's german, it's called echteleder written inside.
I don't know where it came from, germany it was.
And a cow yes.
Right, we've kind of narrowedit down anyway, but um, and I
(43:58):
got it from a vintage shop and Iwore it ironically to this
party, the 70s party, and nowit's the trendiest piece of
clothing I've got and I can'twear it because my kids keep
pinching it.
So that's my esoteric piece ofclothing.
I know you're going to havesomething horrible, so we'll
come to you later.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
So, etienne, other than your sort of sparkling
choice in cufflinks and Iimagine you've got a variety of
couple, I imagine I'm guessingit's your thing anything else
you'd like to share with us?
Speaker 2 (44:24):
yeah, well, I mean those, you know those kind of
ducks.
They're my daughter's favoriteones so you know, she's always
telling me that take them withyou and uh, and I like that, I
like to be a little provoked.
I'm a very classical person butI like to have a little touch
of you know, provocation.
You know, today I forgot mypink fountain pen, but normally
I'm having a very flashy pinkfountain pen and now I've become
(44:48):
a little more boring over time.
But in the past I used toreally like wearing pink
trousers, orange trousers, lightgreen, always with then grey or
blue, so that kind of littlecontrast.
I can see where your questionis going.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
While you were talking about your leather
jacket, I was immediatelythinking about my ugly Christmas
sweater collection.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
Oh, collection I do collection.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
I do know that you also have ugly Christmas sweater
parties here in the UK, but mycollection is building and so
for that everybody should beworried.
Speaker 5 (45:21):
Everybody wants to have crown jewels.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Oh, I have a fantastic green one with a
Christmas tree on it where theChristmas ornaments light up.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
That's very good, oh cool it's quite dizzy, it's nice
.
Speaker 5 (45:34):
Lee, can we not do shoes, or is it going to?
Speaker 4 (45:37):
be shoes.
No, it's not going to be shoes.
Oh, excellent.
Speaker 5 (45:40):
I was just thinking of not do shoes, or is it going
to be shoes?
No, it's not going to be shoes.
Oh, excellent, just so you knowthese shoes.
Oh my golly, golly go.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
I have quite a line of outrageous shoes.
Usually they come out youhaven't been fired by CPAP.
No, no, no.
Well, it's taken them a longtime to get used to it, but now
it's expected at conferences ah,ok plus walk on music.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
I always come on to walk-on music.
Speaker 4 (45:59):
But the other thing.
So when I was getting into thesort of what does it mean to be
a chief exec?
So this was in Job BeforeZip-Up, I did a little bit of
coaching with a lady and she wasbrilliant.
And so she said, as a chiefexec, particularly if you do
public speaking, I do a fair bitof it.
You need to point thedifference.
So you trousers and yourcupboards.
So mine is not perhaps close,but it's my stick.
So I carry a very long stick.
(46:22):
You've seen my stick.
I carve them.
I make them myself, so carve aspiral up it.
My current one's got an oldmascot off of one of my first
Jags.
That's got a Jag on top, butI'll say my current one.
It was put in the storage areawhere all the stuff was coming
(46:42):
back to sleep, but when we gotback someone had taken it and it
was my pride and joy.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
I'm sorry.
I mean, somebody loved yourstick.
I'll make another one.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
I keep looking on eBay because it's so obviously
mine.
If it appears on eBay I'llrecognise it and it's just
search for jaguar walking stick.
But I've not yet, I'm not yetseeing it yeah, so I was back in
the house, yeah yeah, do youwant to do your question or no?
no, we're good, we're good,we're good, okay.
Oh, thank you both.
So much for for coming in andshowing your toddlers.
Hopefully you've enjoyed it.
Uh, we like, we like these.
We like these things to beenjoyable.
(47:13):
Uh, how much more time we'vegot in the uk till well, sunday
for me and I think for you aswell, sunday for me as well.
And then back home.
Yeah, the tour is finished,back home for Christmas.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
What time for Pine Lab?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
Unfortunately not.
We would love to, but we haveto meet corporate members.
So you know, we are kind of,you know, back to back.
Speaker 3 (47:31):
But you know what We'll?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
do that in San Diego A rain check.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Rain check.
Well, actually, not a raincheck for San Diego, but a sun
check for San.
Diego, I know for sure, butwe'll take you up on it.
Speaker 4 (47:43):
That's a wrap.
All we need to say is, ifyou've listened to the podcast
and you've enjoyed it in the waythat we enjoy making them,
leave us a little review on thepodcasting platform of your
choice, and that will mean evenmore people will find it, and we
very much hope that you'll takethe podcast back with you and
share it in the intercommunity.
Absolutely, we'll do that.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Thank you so much, thank you for the invitation Bye
(48:21):
.
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