September 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Richard and Pat discuss the lasting effects that childhood trauma, rejection, disappointment and insecurity etc., have on all of us as we go through life. They also cover clinical and spiritual ways to deal with and overcome it.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:23):
And welcome to the two live.
Two Unlikely Christian podcast.
I always wanna say Too, toolive.
But that was actually kind of a,uh, a nasty rap group back, back
in the eighties.
So we're, we're not too livegroup.
We're too unlikely.
Christian, Christian Podcastkind of unveiling my past there
a little bit.
(00:44):
I'm comedian Pat McCool and nowto the brains of our duo all the
way across.
The Atlantic Ocean to somewherein England, the main man,
Richard Turrell.
Thanks, pat.
Nice to see you man.
Nice to see you.
I'm glad you said that about mebeing the brains of the
operation.
(01:04):
It's, you know, one of thosethings I've, I've thought many
times, but I'm glad that it's,it's out in the open.
I'm very perceptive, and asI've, as I told my wife, between
your education, all your degreesand my GED we're pretty, we're
pretty sophisticated and roundedout here with our education, so
we're combining here.
So, so I'm, yeah, absolutely.
(01:25):
I'm more than happy to, toassign you the brains of the
outfit.
And speaking of on the otherside of the Atlantic Ocean, we
are now up to eight differentcountries.
We just had Germany checking inwith a place called, um, Geen,
HESI, Germany.
We'd like to welcome them in.
(01:46):
You ever been to Germany, rich?
I have.
Up in Berlin, yeah.
Been to Berlin.
Berlin.
Uh, do you know that I actuallylived in Germany?
With your dad's military movingabout.
Yeah.
Yeah, I lived there, when I wastwo, but I don't really, you
know, tell when I'm trying toact a little cosmopolitan and
(02:07):
international.
I don't always say that.
So I tell, you know, people aretalking, oh, I've been to Rome.
Oh, I've been to Rome, I've beento Paris, I've been to, uh.
Yeah, I've been all over Europe,but what I don't tell'em that I
was being, I was two years oldand my mother, uh, had me
wearing a pair of liter hoingand, uh, I, I looked like, uh, a
cartoon character.
(02:29):
Are there any pic?
Are there pictures back?
That's, I do have pictures,honest to gosh.
I will find a picture of me inGerman and I'll send it to you.
I'll tell you where I get bustedis where they, they'll, you
know, I was like, have you'vebeen to Paris?
Oh, I've been to Paris.
And you know, I don't tell'emI'm two.
And they're like, well, what wasyour favorite restaurant?
Just, you know, so I'm a little,you knows, I, I don't know.
(02:50):
I'm just a pretty stump.
The only recollection of arestaurant that I have of all my
time in Europe was we were inItaly and we were up in some
mountains, or my grandparentshad come over and we were, just
taking a vacation and up in themountains maybe the, I guess the
Alps or whatever they call and,my grandfather, who grew up, was
(03:13):
born and raised in JacksonCounty, Mississippi, uh, all
Estaba Mississippi, about 90miles south of here.
And we have a saying over here,you can take the boy outta
Mississippi, but you can't takeMississippi out of the boy
because my grandfather sat down.
And the Italian waiter came up,you know, he, he spoken a little
(03:36):
broken English.
My grandfather couldn't read themenu and frustratingly he closes
the menu, sets it down, looks upat the waiter and said, I'll
have a bologna sandwich.
And Sally here, my grandmotherSally here, will have a milk of
magnesia.
Yeah.
(03:56):
That was our experience, thatwas my lasting memory in an
Italian restaurant.
So, uh, a a a cultural triumphhack, it sounds like It was.
Yeah.
Yeah, it definitely was.
Although I do think I left mymark in Europe because I was in
ho in hospitals in threedifferent countries because.
(04:18):
Once my brother tripped me goingupstairs in Holland and I busted
my chin and that, that burstopen.
And then in Italy, I ran in agrocery store.
I was attacking, trying totackle my brother and he did a
Spanish, uh.
Bullfighter and just overlayedme into the produce section.
(04:40):
And that split my head open.
And then back in Germany, I oncedrank a good portion of, a
bottle of Mr.
Clean cleaning fluid, and theyhad to take me to the hospital.
And you know what, we're aboutto get into this inner child.
I have no clue why you read mybook.
Why did I do all this?
(05:01):
Why did I do all the others?
Oh, the, the li well, the, theMr.
Clean looked like lemonade.
Oh, I see.
I thought it was like, I'd liketo know I could cry for help or
something.
Well, I'm two, you know, I, Idunno, I, I didn't really, I
hadn't really built up a lot of,I really built, yeah.
I'm letting my parents know thislife is not working out for me.
(05:23):
I can't take the rejection, I'mnot getting the love I need.
I'm going right down there andI'm crawling up.
In the cleaning fluid aisle, andI'm down in a bottle of Mr.
Clean because they haven'tfigured out they need to put
childproof caps on this yet.
And I got about four or fivegulps in me and then I was
being, having my stomach pumpedat a local, at a local germ
(05:44):
hospital.
Do you like, if I imagine a2-year-old drinking a bottle of
cleaning fluid, right.
I just, I, I see it and like Isee the child taking the first
sip.
Realizing it's not lemonade, andthen they, they, maybe they spit
out the lemonade, the, thecleaning fluid or you know, like
some, they stop crying, youknow, something happens.
(06:05):
But, but you, you continue todrink the, the cleaning fluid.
Is this, is this correct?
Yeah.
Somehow some.
Somehow I got enough in me tohave to go to the ho.
I've wondered that myself.
I would, I thought like, well,once it hit my lips, you know,
didn't I just kind of spit itout?
I, I was two.
I don't remember.
I do know, uh, my parents canvouch.
(06:26):
They had to haul me to theemergency room, so obviously I
got a few gulps of cleaning.
So I believe it happened, pat, Ibelieve it happened.
I'm just curious as to what wasgoing, what was going on in that
little 2-year-old mind.
Yeah, you're the same as me.
Every time I recount the story,I'm like, how did I keep
drinking?
You'd think it hit the lips andI'd be like, okay, this is not,
this isn't lemonade.
(06:46):
We're gonna move on to, uh,we're gonna move on to something
else.
Maybe we'll go, you know, for a,a floor cleaner or something.
But, I almost did it, but I didsomehow, uh, survive childhood.
Which, which is a good segueinto what we're going to talk
about today.
Hey, uh, take care away.
Your LinkedIn post and as youknow, this is, this is something
(07:08):
that I'm very interested inbecause when you and I first met
in our first conversation, whenwe discovered that we had a
passion for helping others and,I told you in addition to
comedy, I did public speakingand things, I, you know, I'd
always thought about the peoplecarrying their childhood with
them.
I always thought so manyproblems in people's lives come
(07:30):
from what happened to them, uh,in childhood.
And we briefly mentioned it inthat, and we mentioned it during
the, um.
During the episode on, uh, onaddiction.
And what we're gonna do is, I'mgonna read this, this is off
LinkedIn that Richard has post,we've got three posts here.
I don't know if we're going toget to all of them.
Um, and remember the, this isall, this is Richard's clinical.
(07:54):
Take'cause this all comes fromhis clinical practice as a
psychotherapist and addictionspecialist.
I always tie in the stuff thathappened in childhood as, as the
devil's way of continuing tocome in and pound you.
Um, but you have it, you havethis from a clinical clinician
perspective, from the peoplethat you've worked with.
(08:15):
And, I've always thought that,well, I know for a fact Jesus
uses.
The, the clinical experience,uh, and therapy.
To help people.
Yeah.
That, you know, that I, I have avery good friend here in
Hattiesburg, Dr.
Beverly Smile Wood.
She is a psychologist.
I don't know the differencebetween the two of you, but I
(08:37):
think it's very similar.
She is a sold out follower andbeliever of Jesus, but she has
the clinical practice, that she,helps an awful lot of people.
So I think people could get alot of help from this.
So I am going to read the.
Very first post you said, andthe word clinical, uh, inner
child.
If anybody my age is a man haslistened to this, don't click
(08:58):
away.
Because we had the inner childthing going on in America years
ago.
We talked about it, but it kindof had a stigma.
It was kind of like a.
Uh oh, just get over it and growup type thing.
Mm-hmm.
But as I've gotten older, theterm really does work because it
is, or that there are thingsfrom your childhood that, uh,
are carrying with you.
(09:18):
And I've always thought that youmay leave childhood.
But it never leaves you, andthat's all of it.
So let's read this.
Uh, why the title is, why InnerChild Work Matters in Addiction
Recovery.
This is part one of a three partseries detailing my approach of
using inner child and somatictrauma therapy.
(09:39):
Together working with suitableaddiction patients,
trauma-informed practitionersunderstand addiction is not.
As a moral failing, but as asurvival strategy, a coping
mechanism rooted in unresolvedchildhood pain.
For many addictive behaviors aredriven by emotional wounds
carried by the inner child, apart of the psyche that holds
(10:01):
our earliest experiences offear, vulnerability, and unmet
needs.
Eddie Capucci, Capucci.
Capucci.
Yeah.
Capucci.
A therapist known for his workwith sex and pornography
addiction Addiction developedthe inner child model for
addiction recovery.
This model identifies the unmetemotional needs of a wounded
(10:22):
inner child as the driver behindcompulsive behaviors.
Having trained with Eddie andhis co-author, Nathan Jones, I
found this model to betransformative in helping
clients reconnect with thesewounded parts of themselves,
recovery in this framework.
It means learning how toidentify your dominant inner
child archetypes and developingan emotionally literate,
(10:43):
compassionate adult self thatcan re-parent and soThe them in
my synthesized approach.
Alongside these valuableinsights and new parts of
responding to disowned parts ofoneself, I work with the body in
post two.
Two, I'll explore the somaticside of this work and how this
approach allows contact not onlywith the trauma that lives in
(11:05):
the mind, but in the nervoussystem.
So if you could just elaboratefrom there.
Yeah, of course Pat, thanks forreading that out.
And um, so I mean, I guess I'llpick up on something you said
right at the front end thereabout, you know, the stigma that
can be attached in the childwork.
And it's really interesting.
(11:27):
Often, you know, and I stillcome across it now.
Um, there's that idea that weshould just get over it.
That it's, you know, um, it's afallacy, you know, what do you
mean in a child, you know, I'm aman or, or a woman, you know,
like, and so we can be quiteself projecting of a part of us
(11:51):
that is, you know, an early partof us that's wounded.
You know, that's hurt.
And, um, we all carry, you know,that kind of younger part of
ourself.
You know, our older majorschools of psychology agree.
Now that, um, and all the minorones that we all have different
parts of ourselves, like, no,you know, no one's just.
(12:12):
There's not a singlepersonality, right?
So we carry these younger partsof ourselves.
But so also, also often there'sthis idea, this, this tendency
to like reject that part ofourselves.
And the interesting thing is Ithink that the way that we
relate to our in a child willusually mirror the way that we
were treated as children.
(12:33):
So if someone is rejecting thatidea and rejecting that part of
themselves, then that's probablywhat happened when they were a
kid.
Yeah.
And often I think the peoplethat reject these ideas the
hardest are the people that needthem the most.
You know, it's like, I thinkthere's something in that.
The idea of the inner child isnot that we actually carry a
(12:54):
child.
You know, there is a childinside of us, obviously that,
you know, is not what it is.
But what the, what the innerchild idea does is it pulls
together a lot of, uh, morecomplicated psychological ideas.
And, um, it, it packages themtogether in a very useful
(13:14):
metaphor.
Yeah, a very useful metaphor.
And in d you know, so that kindof construct allows us to start
to relate to ourselves in, indifferent ways.
That would be my opener thereapparently.
Uh, and I have always thought,um, as I've said that, that so
much of what goes on in ourlives all goes back to
(13:38):
childhood.
If you were rejected as a child,you're expecting to be rejected.
If you had trauma, I didn'treally have trauma.
Uh, you know, you, you, you hadtrauma.
Lemme ask you this, you know,Chris, we're getting into the
fall.
Um, you had trauma in your life.
What, what kind of, are you, areyou a big fan of Christmas, for
example?
(13:58):
Not really.
Okay.
Not really.
I knew that was coming.
Yeah.
You, you don't have to go anyfarther because the, you just
made my point.
Here's the point that I wasgoing to make.
I knew you were going to saythis.
'cause when I talked tosomebody, see I loved Christmas
'cause I didn't have thechildhood trauma.
A lot of the stuff.
That I got into happened lateron in life and you know, or as I
(14:19):
became a teenager and baddecisions, but you had trauma in
my life and I knew how you weregonna answer this question.
People that aren't big Christmaspeople, you can pretty much tell
they had trauma in their livesas a child.
See, the whole Christmas seasoncomes to me or, and my wife and
you.
Full of great memories and fondmemories.
(14:41):
It's not for you.
It's because you had trauma withthe parents, you had parents
drinking, you had divorce, andthe, you didn't feel all of that
comfort and joy and everythingat Christmas time.
Um.
I've got people very close tome.
A, a guy that's that just, no,he doesn't like Christmas at
all.
He had a horrible father and ahorrible childhood.
(15:03):
So, you know, one, one way I canjust about tell if somebody had
a good childhood or not, byasking that one question, did
you have, do you remember theChristmas and the family thing
that way?
So you had that trauma.
I knew how you were gonna answerthat question, but.
To broadly expand it even tomyself.
I just remember I can be goingdown the road and something will
(15:26):
pop in the head.
That happened, you know, in thefifth grade.
Was it a rejection?
Was it, you know, getting a a, atail whipping for something that
I didn't do and understand whynow I did most of the stuff I
got the tail whippings for.
Trust me, I'm, but, um.
It's those little things that gowith us If were you rejected?
(15:47):
Uh, were you, you know, dumpedby a girlfriend, a boyfriend or
something like that, didsomebody treat you badly?
Those things all, I think, allstay in our heads and to tie the
spiritual realm into it, I wouldsay all of that to beat us up
all through.
Drew life.
You said a lot in that postthere that I was just noticing
(16:08):
'cause I just skimmed throughit.
But there are so many things inthere.
That he can use to destroy you?
Not just in addiction.
I think just people are just in,you know, we talked about in the
spiritual Warfare podcast, Iknow people that, as a child
didn't, you know, maybe get thelove I and that they should have
(16:29):
and they go through life.
Expecting things in thesubconsciously expecting life to
treat them that way.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah, of course, man, a lot.
I think that, you know, the wayI come to understand it since I
came to Christ is, you know,those wounds, you know, those
childhood wounds, the thingsthat happen, you know, traumas,
(16:53):
all of those things, they kindof create the um.
The cracks in our psyche thatthe enemy gets into, you know,
oh, I had a brilliant sermon theother day and, um, the, the
pastor was saying, um, he said,not everything, not every
negative message you hear aboutyourself.
Not every dysfunctional thought,not every, you know, a difficult
(17:17):
belief is an attack of theenemy, but it might just be that
the enemy told you a lie 20years ago that you still believe
now.
And I thought that was verypowerful.
So yeah, I think, I mean, it alljoins up somewhere that, look, a
debate that I have quite oftenwith, uh, Christian friends is
this idea that like, actually,well, like if we're a new, you
(17:38):
know, we're born again, we'resaved, we're a new creation,
right?
So therefore everything you knowis wheel washed clean, you know,
so therefore.
All past traumas, wounds, youknow, difficulties, addictions,
compulsions, whatever, likethey're gone.
And if they're not gone, thenyou're not saved.
And I think that's reallydangerous actually.
Um, I think that sometimes Godworks through people and that's
(18:05):
the role that clinicians liketherapist, like myself,
complain.
You know, we can help peoplethat need that little bit of
extra of extra help, you know,that need some.
Psychological input in order toget freedom from, from the kind
of stuff that we're talkingabout, pat, you know, that,
that, you know, that pain, thosefears, those negative beliefs,
(18:26):
you know, and the things thatpeople do to escape from them,
you know?
So, um, yeah, that's, that'swhat I think about all that up.
I totally agree with you.
That was the old thinking and Ialso heard a pastor saying.
And the way we were thinking itused to be once you become a
Christian, once you followJesus, that we discussed this in
(18:49):
spiritual warfare episode, thatoh, everything should be great.
Well, if I have a broken arm andI accept Jesus, he's probably
gonna make it possible for me toget to a doctor and get that
broken arm fixed.
Yeah.
You follow what I'm saying?
Yeah, I'm understand.
Yeah.
Just not just touch my hand andgo.
It's so much deeper and I thinkit's very dangerous thinking.
(19:13):
You've accepted Jesus.
You're born again, you're saved,and everything should be fine.
I know people that areChristians that have killed
themselves, that they just, lifejust tormented them and
tormented them.
They, you can listen to thedevil.
You cannot be following Jesus ornot getting the help that you
need.
I know people that are going,that are alcoholics, that are
(19:37):
sold out followers of Jesus,they attend these meetings.
They attend our AA meetingsconstantly.
They need that help.
They need the therapy, they needthe clinical, the clinical help,
the books that, that you read onit.
So I totally agree with that.
Um, that is pretty brilliantwhat the guy, what he said, it's
not all intact, but it could besomething that he put in your
(19:59):
head that stays with you.
My wife and I were having aconversation other, I don't even
know what it was about, uh, analbum, Crosby Steel's Nash, and
Young four Way Street.
You, you're a little too youngto have the best generation of
music.
Rich.
I don't know what you listen to,but you're right behind the
sixties and seventies and mostof it came outta Britain that
I've given you credit for.
(20:19):
But I had this great, this greatalbum and I, and we were talking
about it.
I was like, yeah, I was playingthe song and I said, yeah, I
don't have this anymore.
'cause my brother told me hisfriend broke it.
And then I started thinking, Iwas like, you know what?
I bet his friend didn't breakit.
Mike probably broke it'cause hewas always lying to me.
And 10 minutes later I'm talkingabout Mike taking my headphones,
tearing my headphones up, and Istart thinking and I can feel
(20:43):
myself actually thinking aboutthat moment in childhood when my
brother was being an abusivebrother to me.
Uh, and I just think that ifthat's little stuff like that is
always in our head.
If you are somebody that.
That maybe was bullied as achild, that was rejected, that
was, um, you know, that hadfailings, had fears as a child,
(21:08):
didn't feel love as a child.
I think that stays with you forthe rest of your life.
I think your, your yeah, it 100%does.
Right?
And, and it doesn't have to, butlike you will carry it with you
and like we have all these, andlook to some extent was.
We're, we're supposed to, right?
The way that we view the world,the way that we view our place
(21:28):
in it, the way that we viewothers within the world, right?
The way that we view ourselves,it, it's forged in childhood.
It's supposed to be.
That's where we learn how to,you know, how to engage with the
world, but, but sometimesthere's too much adversity.
There's too much difficulty.
(21:49):
There's too much.
Things like rejection andabandonment.
We all experience that to onedegree or another, right?
There's no, nothing exempts usfrom that, but when there's too
much, it gets lodged, it getsstuck, and it causes this kinda
psychic pain, you know, thisintrapersonal conflict.
And then so often that arepeople that, that I meet, you
(22:11):
know, in my practice that.
The ones who, the way they foundto cope is through drugs,
through addictive sex, throughalcohol, through, you know,
gambling, whatever it might be,right?
Because it, it, it somehowsoothes the pain.
And it's funny'cause that worksdifferent for different people.
If you look at heroin addicts,you know, as far heroin addicts,
(22:33):
right?
Among other things.
But heroin addicts, often whatwas missing was comfort and
nurture.
Yeah, because heroin is, youknow, it's, you know, there's
this, just this, certainly atfirst, this immense sense of
comfort and ease.
Right.
You know, if you look at acocaine addict, it's often what
they were lacking wasstimulation.
(22:55):
Yeah.
Um, so it's, you know, the, the,the, the drug that someone
chooses will often reflect whatwas missing.
Childhood.
That's, that's a veryinteresting thing.
The nickname for, um, heroin.
Certainly in this country, oneof the old school nicknames for
heroin was, it was calledMother's Love.
(23:16):
Yeah, mother's Love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was, that was a revelation,which you said, because as I
told you, I never did theheroin.
I never did the heroin.
'cause it never showed up in mytown.
Because as a teenager I wasdoing everything.
But I did the cocaine.
And I've told you before, Iwasn't, I had mother's love, you
know, I'm the guy that lovedChristmas.
I had the mother's love the dadtaking me to the ball game and,
(23:39):
you know.
My dad was a little bit of ahard case, but I had that
growing up.
But you just said something Inever thought about.
The one that goes for thecocaine, which I did, uh, as
we've discussed, is looking forstimulation.
Well, I have a thought, Patrick,I could share with you if you
would be interested about your.
(23:59):
Story.
Yeah.
Can you tell, you, tell me whatyou think.
Like, I'm willing to be wrong,right?
But you, there was lots of lovein your house.
You know, I've read your bookand we talk and stuff and we
talk on here and we talk off airand, you know, all that stuff,
right?
So you grew up, there was love,you know, lots of mum, you know,
your actual, your mum wasloving, your father was, was
(24:19):
present and attentive.
Um.
You, you, you sometimes refer toyour dad as a bit of a hard case
and he was a military man.
Right.
So I would guess the rules andregulations, you know, like some
quite probably quite rigid,strict boundaries in the house
growing up.
(24:40):
Yeah.
And then everything about howthings developed for you was the
opposite of that.
Rebellious, messy, yeah.
Like extreme, yeah.
Chaos.
Yeah.
I, I kind of think thateverything that you did was a
reaction to that rigidity.
(25:03):
Yeah.
And, um.
I think the cold coming for youprobably was,'cause it was there
and it was an active rebellion,you know?
And of course once you'veinjected a drug like that, it's
extremely addictive and you didwell to get away from it.
But that would be my, um,formulation of what, what you
experienced, what, what you makeit a.
(25:24):
Chills when you said it.
Fuck it.
Never really, that never reallyhit me.
You know, that's why I said Ialways like talking about this.
'cause I'm always trying tothink back in the childhood, but
I didn't experience that traumaand I think you may, I think you
may have just gone right overthe target because that's what I
was doing.
You said why did you drink theMr.
(25:46):
Clean?
I was just, I was alwaysrebelling.
And I was the third, I had anolder brother, second older
brother, I mean a, uh, two olderbrothers.
And then I was a little pooky.
And if you ever, you know, ifyou ever look into quite often
little number three, littlePooky will be the salesman,
which I was, I was a topsalesman with the insurance
(26:08):
company I was in.
I was a top performing executivewith that insurance company.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and then I quit and I becamea.
Comedian, they end up in theentertainment business or
something.
Um, I think you're exactlyright.
It was rebelling.
I was, you, I was justconstantly, you know, creating
the chaos.
I can remember somebody askingmy brother like, what is wrong
(26:30):
with Pat?
He has everything and, and thenthe next thing you know, Pat's
going, has everything going forhim, but.
You know, last night he went outand ran his car into a tree, or
last night for, he, he doesn'tneed food, but him and his
friend just got caughtburglarizing, a convenience
store.
(26:50):
So I think you just nailed thehead.
You just hit the nail on thehead.
Well, and an interesting pointthat comes outta that, which is
really important, I think for,you know, for the listeners is
like it, you know, like, itdoesn't have to be like an
obvious, I.
Like trauma, you know, likeabuse, violence, neglect,
growing up with a alcoholism,sexual abuse.
(27:13):
You know, it doesn't have to bethose things.
Sometimes it's much more subtle,you know, sometimes it's much
more subtle, but, but like, oh,you know, we can usually find
the roots of.
Dysfunctional behavior in, youknow, back in, in childhood.
'cause all of that, all of thatbehavior, all serves a purpose.
This is a really importantpoint, right?
It's like, I know we're goingkind of going all over the place
(27:35):
a little bit, but I think it'svaluable, right?
It's like.
All that behavior serves apurpose.
Right?
Like in a really messy way.
Yeah.
So for you though, you know,like, I think anyway, and I'm
not telling you like, I'm awarethat we're kind of, you know,
potentially izing you on apodcast, right.
But like, like that, yeah.
(27:56):
There is that like, you know,that need for like rebellion for
messiness, you know, for, youknow, all of those kind of
things, which Sure.
You know, you know, a bit ofchaos, which are all things
that, that kid, kids need someof that.
Right.
Actually.
How, how a, you know, how ayoung, how a boy forms his
identity as a man is by startingto push back.
(28:17):
Yeah.
Against the boundaries, right.
And tests them and where do theylie and what can I do?
So like actually all of you'reacting out and all of the mad
stuff that you got up to, likeit all actually served a
purpose.
It did it in a way which washorrific, you know?
And like dangerous.
Yeah.
But it all served its purpose.
My drug addiction served apurpose.
(28:37):
I was so full of like anxietyand self-loathing, you know,
that, uh.
I needed someone to take theedge off of that.
And to be honest with you, if Ihadn't become a drug addict,
right, I think in a very goodchance I would've killed myself.
'cause what was going on insideof me was so painful.
Yeah.
So it all serves its purpose,right?
All of these things we do, theyserve.
(28:57):
Their purpose is just sometimesthey do it in a way which is so
dysfunctional.
And destructive that has to, hasto stop, has to stop, man.
That's some insight.
I just, I never really thoughtof that.
When you, the kind of, the lightbulb went off when you said the
cocaine is going for the charge,the other's going for the love.
(29:21):
I've always wondered where thetwo were, because there's, a
correlation, but there's a bigdifference there.
And that's what I was lookingfor the thrill.
Mm-hmm.
So I never really, um, neverreally thought of that.
Uh, while we have time, can Iread part two real quick?
Yeah, let's give it a go.
We can.
Talk about this another, youknow, a bit later on in our
(29:42):
schedule, but let's give it awhile.
Okay?
Let me just do this real quickand we will, uh, see what the
body remembers.
The somatic side of addiction,addiction is more than a mental
pattern.
It's in a bodily response tooverwhelm.
That's the core insight I gainedfrom training with somatic
trauma expert, uh, BA waRothschild.
(30:03):
Author of the Body rememberswhen trauma occurs, the nervous
system can get stuck insurvival, states fight, flight,
or freeze.
In this state, the body nolonger feels safe.
Even when the environment is formany.
Addiction becomes a way to numb,escape, or artificially
regulate.
This dysregulated system, RothChild's trauma-informed approach
(30:23):
teaches that before diving intochildhood memories of en inner
child work, clients must firstlearn to regulate their body.
This means building awareness ofsensations like shallow
breathing.
Chest tightness or restlessnesswithout judgment.
Once some degree of somaticsafety is in place, can deeper
psychological work like innerchild healing proceed with the
(30:45):
overwhelming the system?
In part three, I'll share howcombining these two frameworks,
uh, CAPA's any inner child workand Rothschild's somatic
approach creates a powerful pathduring long term recovery.
This sounds like you're kind ofcontinuing on what you, what you
were saying for many addictionbecomes a way to escape.
Um.
The AR and artificially regulatethe dysregulated system.
(31:08):
So you're saying for a lot ofpeople in addiction, they have a
dysregulated system that'scoming from, from childhood.
Yeah.
Most pe you know, most, if notall, people in addiction like
it, it is an issue.
Know it's an issue of emotionalregulation and one way or
another, you know, people that,that they're really kind of down
in a part of their nervoussystem that's like kind of.
(31:30):
Should be for like calm andrelaxation, but actually they've
kind of dropped past that andthey're into sort of being quite
like, you know, shut down,dissociated, disconnected, or
often people, like they're up,they're, they're, they're up too
high.
You know, they've gone into thepart of their nervous system
that's responsible for activity,you know, for moving forward,
for getting stuff done.
(31:52):
Now they've shot kind of pastthat and they're into fight or
flight, you know, and, um.
So helping people to kind of beable to regulate their state and
stay in that kind of, you know,more the optimal parts of their
nervous system.
Is really key.
And when you start to talk aboutand remember traumatic memories,
(32:19):
right?
Like then you, people becomedysregulated.
So you have to be able toregulate, like if you're gonna
dive into the, into the kind ofmaterial that sometimes you have
to look at during inner childwork.
So you have to be able to helppeople regulate.
Otherwise actually it justbecomes kind of hurtful, you
know?
It just becomes harmful.
So part of the inner childprocess that I use or.
(32:41):
Use in the model that I'mtalking about there, it is about
helping people to start to putlike a narrative together of
their lives.
Why they've acted in certainways, why they've thought in
certain ways, why they've feltin certain ways, you know?
It doesn't mean reliving everysingle event.
It definitely doesn't need to bethat.
It definitely, it shouldn'treally be that, but it is about
(33:03):
starting to, oh yeah, thatrelationship with mum, that was
like that and dad was like thatand that left me feeling like
this.
And actually that how that playsout to me today, is that right?
But when you start getting intothat kind of territory, it's
dysregulating, you know?
So you need to be able to helppeople to regulate.
Okay.
Feel that whatever it is that'scome up, regulate, regulate,
(33:23):
regulate.
Whatever's come up, regulate,regulate, regulate, and then
that, that way you can kind ofmove through the process,
release some of the emotionalcharge, gain an understanding of
the story.
Also, you sort of teach peoplehow they can manage their
emotional state day to day.
And that's where the magic, youknow, that's a big part of where
(33:43):
the magic happens.
Uh, do you think, and I say thisbecause I just, I know people.
That are stressed out in lifeand they're quick to, it could
be a woman that's, got childrenand a husband and they always
feel like they can't, you know,they're always having to stress
(34:05):
to kind of measure up.
They, and goes back to childhoodwhere, uh.
The parents were always, or thefather was always giving'em a
hard time or not accepting theway, I don't, I'm not saying
this correctly, I just think alot of people that they still
react as adults.
Based on what they did aschildhood.
(34:26):
From childhood.
It could be from the parents orI didn't measure up, I guess
what I'm trying to say, peoplethat say I didn't measure up.
I know people that do thatthey've, you know, they were
told or made to feel like theydidn't measure up when they were
young.
And now that they're old, thesame thing is still there.
You know, it's like I've, I'vegotta do this for my husband, I
gotta do this for my spouse.
(34:47):
I've gotta always be perfectbecause I, it goes all the way
back to childhood, not gettingthat approval, not getting that
love and that type of thing.
Do you, do you think I'm ontosomething there?
I think it, it's very accurate.
Yeah, it's very accurate.
Yeah.
But look, this stuff comes in,you know, it's been spoken about
(35:07):
for years in different ways.
You know, core beliefs, youknow, internal drivers and
injunctions.
You know, you know, you can drawon lots of different sort of
schools of thoughts.
You've got internal familysystems now.
Um, there's all sorts of, lotsof different.
Schools of psychology havelooked at this in this sort of
(35:29):
material with slightly differentemphasis, emphasis with slightly
different terminology, with somephilosophical differences.
Um, you know, I go, he go allthe way back to Freud, you know,
with the e the ego and the superego and, and Yung with his
archetypes.
You know, the two likegodfathers of psychotherapy,
modern psychotherapy.
(35:49):
In a child is what we're talkingabout.
And in a child, yeah.
It's about how the unconsciousmind is impacted by the events
of childhood when thepersonality is forming and those
play out in our adult lives inways that we're not aware of and
sometimes.
One of the simplest definitionsof therapy, which really
captures what it is in anutshell, is making the
(36:11):
unconscious conscious.
Because if the unconsciousbecomes conscious and all of a
sudden we understand why we'reacting in certain ways, why are
we feeling certain ways, why wethink in certain ways, then we
can do something about it.
And if we aren't aware of it,then we can't, you know, we're
just kind of caught in thecurrent and eddies of our
underlying psychology, and thatcan be a very painful place to
(36:33):
be.
You know, like the, you know,the, the woman who keeps ending
up in a relationship with thesame man, but with a different
face, you know?
Yes.
Like, you know, the person who,regardless of what they achieve,
they never, ever feel goodenough.
They always feel like a fraud.
They always feel like they'regonna get caught out.
You know, the person who fearsrejection constantly, even
though there's no evidence thatthey are going to be rejected,
(36:55):
you know, all of these thingscan play out again and again and
again and again and again.
And they can, you know, they canchange, you know, life from
living to, to existing orsurviving, and that's very sad.
I think that's a, that that's agood, good way to, to leave it
there.
I think you're exactly right.
So the, they keep playing out,they keep creating a reality by
(37:19):
what's going on in theirsubconscious mind, and it's just
something that I've alwaysthought that you carry all of
that, um, throughout yourchildhood.
And you take it out on a lot ofpeople.
If you've been rejected, if youwere rejected at a young age,
you're not gonna be as trustingto somebody that might have
earned your trust.
You're always thinking thatcould happen to you.
(37:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you, I mean, look, one thingI would like, I wanna say before
we end Pat, is like, like, sofor me, like really, I did a lot
of therapy.
I did many years of therapy.
I continued to struggle after,long after I got clean.
I found Jesus and like J.
You know, like coming to faithwas all my, it was like the
missing ingredient, you know?
(38:02):
It was like the missingingredient.
And all of a sudden things fellinto place.
You know, I got touched, I gothealed.
You know, I was washed, clean,and actually that.
But look, therapy helped.
But it was still always astruggle.
Inter, you know, meeting Jesus,everything started to change,
you know, and um, the therapieshave been a really important
(38:24):
part of that picture, and itcontinues to be a really
important part of the picture.
But, you know, without Jesus,it's like for me.
You know, and I often thinkthis, the, the, the more
troubled amongst us, pat Yeah.
Um, psychology on its own, itwill only take you so far.
Um, so yeah, this is none ofthe, none of what we're talking
about today is, uh, analternative to, uh, to, to
(38:49):
Jesus.
But it is a good add on.
Yeah.
Bringing out that you have aclinical take on.
What happens in our childhoodthat I think Satan uses over and
over to contact over and overtorment us.
And that's what's so interestingto talk to you.
You had the physical addiction,actually, you've, you have
(39:12):
provided so a free analyzationof me today because that you, I
got chills when you said that.
I was like, well, that does makesense.
I was one that was searching forthis thrill.
But I will tell you that when I,because.
Everyone's different.
When I became a true follower ofJesus, I was healed.
I mean, boom, I startedfollowing God.
(39:35):
So see, I didn't have thatphysical addiction, so you and I
come from different backgrounds.
It changed.
I decided I am first.
I decided I was gonna followGod.
As you read my book, I became abeliever in my mind.
That's a whole differentepisode, uh, becoming a
Christian and becoming a realfollower of Jesus.
But I became a.
Christian and all of a sudden Idoing the bad stuff, eh, I
(39:55):
didn't wanna do it, but when Ibecame a follower of Jesus, I
was healed from it.
Or heard Alice Cooper, uh, youknow what I'm talking about,
right?
Alice Cooper, the musician.
Yeah.
The, the musician.
Yeah.
Peace.
I came to Jesus.
I was just healed and I wasmyself, but one size doesn't
fits all.
I know people that are.
(40:16):
Sold out followers of Jesus.
They've gotta be in these 12steps.
They've got to be, they, theyneed the therapy, they need the
help.
So that's why we like to combinethe two in our conversation.
Again, the friend of mine thatI'd like for you to meet one
day, um, when you come back toMississippi, Dr.
Beverly Smallwood, she is a.
Sold out follower of Jesus, buther practice is all about,
(40:40):
bringing people, the therapy,the help and, um, everything
just like you do.
Yeah.
So I think that's veryimportant.
And, and the key is, I will tellyou the thing with me and you
when it comes right down to it.
We were incredibly miserablepeople.
And we, in our firstconversation, realized that we
(41:00):
were filled with joy, filledwith peace, filled with
happiness, and there was onecommon denominator.
Jesus, although we didn't knowit during the conversation, we
didn't know it until we had aconversation, until we had a
conversation later on.
So I don't think it was anaccident that, uh, that we
started having a conversation.
But, um, I've just alwaysthought that I know people and I
(41:21):
can just tell by theirreactions.
And a lot of times, just like myquestion about Christmas, a lot
of what their troubles they havein their life doesn't have to be
addiction.
It could be troubles in marriageor, or aggravations and things.
It.
All can spur back to whathappened when they were in
childhood.
But for me, because so manypeople had the rejection I've
(41:43):
told you before, I got dumped bygirlfriends a couple of times
and that kind of stuck with me.
I had no idea that God wasplaying the long game and he had
this woman that I never thoughtI, I could ever in a million
years have a wife like I have.
Yeah.
Destroyed back then.
And when I met my wife, I'mlike, yeah, it's probably just a
(42:04):
matter of time before this isgonna blow up on me.
Uh, but being the woman of God,she was, uh, it more and more
realized, no, this is the personthat, that God had for me.
But Jesus had a plan for mylife.
Uh, go ahead.
You were about to say something.
Yeah.
No, it's'cause there's that, youknow, it's like, look, God works
(42:24):
all things for good.
Right.
But then we know that the en theenemy, you know, he's, he's
here, he, he, he walks aroundlike a Roy lion looking to the
vs.
Right.
And sometimes it's, you know, I,I see that as a stumbling point
for many comings into fate.
It's like, why did I have tosuffer the way that I suffered?
You know, like, why me?
You know?
And I think it's complicated,right?
(42:44):
It's like, well, we know theenemy's doing what the enemy's
doing.
Right?
But then also, I think at thesame time, almost paradoxically.
For me, God, God worked allthose things for good.
So the enemy does what he does,but if we are able to kind of
like have faith and kind of, youknow, embrace Jesus, then we can
be.
Kind of healed and you know,redeemed and transformed, and
(43:06):
then actually all of thosepainful experiences.
You know, I wouldn't be sad.
I don't know what I'd be doing.
Maybe I'd be working at a bankor something, who knows, you
know?
But like I wouldn't be doingwhat I was doing unless I'd been
through what I'd been through.
I wouldn't be able to helppeople unless I'd experienced
what I'd experienced.
I wouldn't be able to help themthe way that I help them now,
you know?
So he does work all things forgood, but.
(43:28):
That can still involve a lot ofsuffering.
'cause we live in a fallenworld, sadly.
And there's, you know, the, the,the millions of darkness are,
you know, they're amongst us andthey're, they're very real, you
know, so it's a complicatedpicture.
But, um, yeah, there we go.
To close on that, actually, mystruggle has been one of the
(43:49):
greatest blessings, which is awhole nother.
Podcast.
If you come through the struggleand you've seen the dark, you've
seen the struggle, you've seenthe misery, then you have the
joy and the peace that Jesus canbring you.
I enjoy everything I do now.
I mean, it's just, I neverwould've been that I was the guy
that you just, you justpsychoanalyzed.
(44:12):
20 minutes ago that I might havebeen searching, for the
excitement because I kind ofwas, I always needed.
So I would sit in school going,this is killing me.
I need to go outside and break awindow or something.
But after going through all ofthose struggles, I just have
peace.
I have joy.
I can sit by myself.
(44:32):
I love solitude.
I left just sitting around wherebefore it was like I had to be
doing something.
You were gonna have one finalthought.
Well, um, it, it's nothingmajor.
Pat.
We could have discussed this offbetter, but I was gonna say,
should I send the invoice toyour email or shall I WhatsApp
it to Yeah, so yeah, send it tomy people and, um.
(44:55):
I will have them.
Hey, could you guys cut Richard,a three party post dated check
and get it in the mail acrossthe pond.
It was very valuable, rich.
It truly was.
And I hope what we pleasure,hope we have talked about today
is valuable to uh, to ourgrowing audience.
So, alright, rich, appreciateyou checking in with me, uh,
today.
(45:15):
I know you had to kind ofsqueeze in there.
Because you've had a busy, busyweekend.
So, uh, I will see you next weekand uh, to everybody out there,
God bless you all.
God bless you all.
I.
And welcome to the two live.
Two Unlikely Christian podcast.
I always wanna say Too, toolive.
But that was actually kind of a,uh, a nasty rap group back, back
in the eighties.
So we're, we're not too livegroup.
We're too unlikely.
Christian, Christian Podcastkind of unveiling my past there
a little bit.
(00:44):
I'm comedian Pat McCool and nowto the brains of our duo all the
way across.
The Atlantic Ocean to somewherein England, the main man,
Richard Turrell.
Thanks, pat.
Nice to see you man.
Nice to see you.
I'm glad you said that about mebeing the brains of the
operation.
(01:04):
It's, you know, one of thosethings I've, I've thought many
times, but I'm glad that it's,it's out in the open.
I'm very perceptive, and asI've, as I told my wife, between
your education, all your degreesand my GED we're pretty, we're
pretty sophisticated and roundedout here with our education, so
we're combining here.
So, so I'm, yeah, absolutely.
(01:25):
I'm more than happy to, toassign you the brains of the
outfit.
And speaking of on the otherside of the Atlantic Ocean, we
are now up to eight differentcountries.
We just had Germany checking inwith a place called, um, Geen,
HESI, Germany.
We'd like to welcome them in.
(01:46):
You ever been to Germany, rich?
I have.
Up in Berlin, yeah.
Been to Berlin.
Berlin.
Uh, do you know that I actuallylived in Germany?
With your dad's military movingabout.
Yeah.
Yeah, I lived there, when I wastwo, but I don't really, you
know, tell when I'm trying toact a little cosmopolitan and
(02:07):
international.
I don't always say that.
So I tell, you know, people aretalking, oh, I've been to Rome.
Oh, I've been to Rome, I've beento Paris, I've been to, uh.
Yeah, I've been all over Europe,but what I don't tell'em that I
was being, I was two years oldand my mother, uh, had me
wearing a pair of liter hoingand, uh, I, I looked like, uh, a
cartoon character.
(02:29):
Are there any pic?
Are there pictures back?
That's, I do have pictures,honest to gosh.
I will find a picture of me inGerman and I'll send it to you.
I'll tell you where I get bustedis where they, they'll, you
know, I was like, have you'vebeen to Paris?
Oh, I've been to Paris.
And you know, I don't tell'emI'm two.
And they're like, well, what wasyour favorite restaurant?
Just, you know, so I'm a little,you knows, I, I don't know.
(02:50):
I'm just a pretty stump.
The only recollection of arestaurant that I have of all my
time in Europe was we were inItaly and we were up in some
mountains, or my grandparentshad come over and we were, just
taking a vacation and up in themountains maybe the, I guess the
Alps or whatever they call and,my grandfather, who grew up, was
(03:13):
born and raised in JacksonCounty, Mississippi, uh, all
Estaba Mississippi, about 90miles south of here.
And we have a saying over here,you can take the boy outta
Mississippi, but you can't takeMississippi out of the boy
because my grandfather sat down.
And the Italian waiter came up,you know, he, he spoken a little
(03:36):
broken English.
My grandfather couldn't read themenu and frustratingly he closes
the menu, sets it down, looks upat the waiter and said, I'll
have a bologna sandwich.
And Sally here, my grandmotherSally here, will have a milk of
magnesia.
Yeah.
(03:56):
That was our experience, thatwas my lasting memory in an
Italian restaurant.
So, uh, a a a cultural triumphhack, it sounds like It was.
Yeah.
Yeah, it definitely was.
Although I do think I left mymark in Europe because I was in
ho in hospitals in threedifferent countries because.
(04:18):
Once my brother tripped me goingupstairs in Holland and I busted
my chin and that, that burstopen.
And then in Italy, I ran in agrocery store.
I was attacking, trying totackle my brother and he did a
Spanish, uh.
Bullfighter and just overlayedme into the produce section.
(04:40):
And that split my head open.
And then back in Germany, I oncedrank a good portion of, a
bottle of Mr.
Clean cleaning fluid, and theyhad to take me to the hospital.
And you know what, we're aboutto get into this inner child.
I have no clue why you read mybook.
Why did I do all this?
(05:01):
Why did I do all the others?
Oh, the, the li well, the, theMr.
Clean looked like lemonade.
Oh, I see.
I thought it was like, I'd liketo know I could cry for help or
something.
Well, I'm two, you know, I, Idunno, I, I didn't really, I
hadn't really built up a lot of,I really built, yeah.
I'm letting my parents know thislife is not working out for me.
(05:23):
I can't take the rejection, I'mnot getting the love I need.
I'm going right down there andI'm crawling up.
In the cleaning fluid aisle, andI'm down in a bottle of Mr.
Clean because they haven'tfigured out they need to put
childproof caps on this yet.
And I got about four or fivegulps in me and then I was
being, having my stomach pumpedat a local, at a local germ
(05:44):
hospital.
Do you like, if I imagine a2-year-old drinking a bottle of
cleaning fluid, right.
I just, I, I see it and like Isee the child taking the first
sip.
Realizing it's not lemonade, andthen they, they, maybe they spit
out the lemonade, the, thecleaning fluid or you know, like
some, they stop crying, youknow, something happens.
(06:05):
But, but you, you continue todrink the, the cleaning fluid.
Is this, is this correct?
Yeah.
Somehow some.
Somehow I got enough in me tohave to go to the ho.
I've wondered that myself.
I would, I thought like, well,once it hit my lips, you know,
didn't I just kind of spit itout?
I, I was two.
I don't remember.
I do know, uh, my parents canvouch.
(06:26):
They had to haul me to theemergency room, so obviously I
got a few gulps of cleaning.
So I believe it happened, pat, Ibelieve it happened.
I'm just curious as to what wasgoing, what was going on in that
little 2-year-old mind.
Yeah, you're the same as me.
Every time I recount the story,I'm like, how did I keep
drinking?
You'd think it hit the lips andI'd be like, okay, this is not,
this isn't lemonade.
(06:46):
We're gonna move on to, uh,we're gonna move on to something
else.
Maybe we'll go, you know, for a,a floor cleaner or something.
But, I almost did it, but I didsomehow, uh, survive childhood.
Which, which is a good segueinto what we're going to talk
about today.
Hey, uh, take care away.
Your LinkedIn post and as youknow, this is, this is something
(07:08):
that I'm very interested inbecause when you and I first met
in our first conversation, whenwe discovered that we had a
passion for helping others and,I told you in addition to
comedy, I did public speakingand things, I, you know, I'd
always thought about the peoplecarrying their childhood with
them.
I always thought so manyproblems in people's lives come
(07:30):
from what happened to them, uh,in childhood.
And we briefly mentioned it inthat, and we mentioned it during
the, um.
During the episode on, uh, onaddiction.
And what we're gonna do is, I'mgonna read this, this is off
LinkedIn that Richard has post,we've got three posts here.
I don't know if we're going toget to all of them.
Um, and remember the, this isall, this is Richard's clinical.
(07:54):
Take'cause this all comes fromhis clinical practice as a
psychotherapist and addictionspecialist.
I always tie in the stuff thathappened in childhood as, as the
devil's way of continuing tocome in and pound you.
Um, but you have it, you havethis from a clinical clinician
perspective, from the peoplethat you've worked with.
(08:15):
And, I've always thought that,well, I know for a fact Jesus
uses.
The, the clinical experience,uh, and therapy.
To help people.
Yeah.
That, you know, that I, I have avery good friend here in
Hattiesburg, Dr.
Beverly Smile Wood.
She is a psychologist.
I don't know the differencebetween the two of you, but I
(08:37):
think it's very similar.
She is a sold out follower andbeliever of Jesus, but she has
the clinical practice, that she,helps an awful lot of people.
So I think people could get alot of help from this.
So I am going to read the.
Very first post you said, andthe word clinical, uh, inner
child.
If anybody my age is a man haslistened to this, don't click
(08:58):
away.
Because we had the inner childthing going on in America years
ago.
We talked about it, but it kindof had a stigma.
It was kind of like a.
Uh oh, just get over it and growup type thing.
Mm-hmm.
But as I've gotten older, theterm really does work because it
is, or that there are thingsfrom your childhood that, uh,
are carrying with you.
(09:18):
And I've always thought that youmay leave childhood.
But it never leaves you, andthat's all of it.
So let's read this.
Uh, why the title is, why InnerChild Work Matters in Addiction
Recovery.
This is part one of a three partseries detailing my approach of
using inner child and somatictrauma therapy.
(09:39):
Together working with suitableaddiction patients,
trauma-informed practitionersunderstand addiction is not.
As a moral failing, but as asurvival strategy, a coping
mechanism rooted in unresolvedchildhood pain.
For many addictive behaviors aredriven by emotional wounds
carried by the inner child, apart of the psyche that holds
(10:01):
our earliest experiences offear, vulnerability, and unmet
needs.
Eddie Capucci, Capucci.
Capucci.
Yeah.
Capucci.
A therapist known for his workwith sex and pornography
addiction Addiction developedthe inner child model for
addiction recovery.
This model identifies the unmetemotional needs of a wounded
(10:22):
inner child as the driver behindcompulsive behaviors.
Having trained with Eddie andhis co-author, Nathan Jones, I
found this model to betransformative in helping
clients reconnect with thesewounded parts of themselves,
recovery in this framework.
It means learning how toidentify your dominant inner
child archetypes and developingan emotionally literate,
(10:43):
compassionate adult self thatcan re-parent and soThe them in
my synthesized approach.
Alongside these valuableinsights and new parts of
responding to disowned parts ofoneself, I work with the body in
post two.
Two, I'll explore the somaticside of this work and how this
approach allows contact not onlywith the trauma that lives in
(11:05):
the mind, but in the nervoussystem.
So if you could just elaboratefrom there.
Yeah, of course Pat, thanks forreading that out.
And um, so I mean, I guess I'llpick up on something you said
right at the front end thereabout, you know, the stigma that
can be attached in the childwork.
And it's really interesting.
(11:27):
Often, you know, and I stillcome across it now.
Um, there's that idea that weshould just get over it.
That it's, you know, um, it's afallacy, you know, what do you
mean in a child, you know, I'm aman or, or a woman, you know,
like, and so we can be quiteself projecting of a part of us
(11:51):
that is, you know, an early partof us that's wounded.
You know, that's hurt.
And, um, we all carry, you know,that kind of younger part of
ourself.
You know, our older majorschools of psychology agree.
Now that, um, and all the minorones that we all have different
parts of ourselves, like, no,you know, no one's just.
(12:12):
There's not a singlepersonality, right?
So we carry these younger partsof ourselves.
But so also, also often there'sthis idea, this, this tendency
to like reject that part ofourselves.
And the interesting thing is Ithink that the way that we
relate to our in a child willusually mirror the way that we
were treated as children.
(12:33):
So if someone is rejecting thatidea and rejecting that part of
themselves, then that's probablywhat happened when they were a
kid.
Yeah.
And often I think the peoplethat reject these ideas the
hardest are the people that needthem the most.
You know, it's like, I thinkthere's something in that.
The idea of the inner child isnot that we actually carry a
(12:54):
child.
You know, there is a childinside of us, obviously that,
you know, is not what it is.
But what the, what the innerchild idea does is it pulls
together a lot of, uh, morecomplicated psychological ideas.
And, um, it, it packages themtogether in a very useful
(13:14):
metaphor.
Yeah, a very useful metaphor.
And in d you know, so that kindof construct allows us to start
to relate to ourselves in, indifferent ways.
That would be my opener thereapparently.
Uh, and I have always thought,um, as I've said that, that so
much of what goes on in ourlives all goes back to
(13:38):
childhood.
If you were rejected as a child,you're expecting to be rejected.
If you had trauma, I didn'treally have trauma.
Uh, you know, you, you, you hadtrauma.
Lemme ask you this, you know,Chris, we're getting into the
fall.
Um, you had trauma in your life.
What, what kind of, are you, areyou a big fan of Christmas, for
example?
(13:58):
Not really.
Okay.
Not really.
I knew that was coming.
Yeah.
You, you don't have to go anyfarther because the, you just
made my point.
Here's the point that I wasgoing to make.
I knew you were going to saythis.
'cause when I talked tosomebody, see I loved Christmas
'cause I didn't have thechildhood trauma.
A lot of the stuff.
That I got into happened lateron in life and you know, or as I
(14:19):
became a teenager and baddecisions, but you had trauma in
my life and I knew how you weregonna answer this question.
People that aren't big Christmaspeople, you can pretty much tell
they had trauma in their livesas a child.
See, the whole Christmas seasoncomes to me or, and my wife and
you.
Full of great memories and fondmemories.
(14:41):
It's not for you.
It's because you had trauma withthe parents, you had parents
drinking, you had divorce, andthe, you didn't feel all of that
comfort and joy and everythingat Christmas time.
Um.
I've got people very close tome.
A, a guy that's that just, no,he doesn't like Christmas at
all.
He had a horrible father and ahorrible childhood.
(15:03):
So, you know, one, one way I canjust about tell if somebody had
a good childhood or not, byasking that one question, did
you have, do you remember theChristmas and the family thing
that way?
So you had that trauma.
I knew how you were gonna answerthat question, but.
To broadly expand it even tomyself.
I just remember I can be goingdown the road and something will
(15:26):
pop in the head.
That happened, you know, in thefifth grade.
Was it a rejection?
Was it, you know, getting a a, atail whipping for something that
I didn't do and understand whynow I did most of the stuff I
got the tail whippings for.
Trust me, I'm, but, um.
It's those little things that gowith us If were you rejected?
(15:47):
Uh, were you, you know, dumpedby a girlfriend, a boyfriend or
something like that, didsomebody treat you badly?
Those things all, I think, allstay in our heads and to tie the
spiritual realm into it, I wouldsay all of that to beat us up
all through.
Drew life.
You said a lot in that postthere that I was just noticing
(16:08):
'cause I just skimmed throughit.
But there are so many things inthere.
That he can use to destroy you?
Not just in addiction.
I think just people are just in,you know, we talked about in the
spiritual Warfare podcast, Iknow people that, as a child
didn't, you know, maybe get thelove I and that they should have
(16:29):
and they go through life.
Expecting things in thesubconsciously expecting life to
treat them that way.
Does that make sense to you?
Yeah, of course, man, a lot.
I think that, you know, the wayI come to understand it since I
came to Christ is, you know,those wounds, you know, those
childhood wounds, the thingsthat happen, you know, traumas,
(16:53):
all of those things, they kindof create the um.
The cracks in our psyche thatthe enemy gets into, you know,
oh, I had a brilliant sermon theother day and, um, the, the
pastor was saying, um, he said,not everything, not every
negative message you hear aboutyourself.
Not every dysfunctional thought,not every, you know, a difficult
(17:17):
belief is an attack of theenemy, but it might just be that
the enemy told you a lie 20years ago that you still believe
now.
And I thought that was verypowerful.
So yeah, I think, I mean, it alljoins up somewhere that, look, a
debate that I have quite oftenwith, uh, Christian friends is
this idea that like, actually,well, like if we're a new, you
(17:38):
know, we're born again, we'resaved, we're a new creation,
right?
So therefore everything you knowis wheel washed clean, you know,
so therefore.
All past traumas, wounds, youknow, difficulties, addictions,
compulsions, whatever, likethey're gone.
And if they're not gone, thenyou're not saved.
And I think that's reallydangerous actually.
Um, I think that sometimes Godworks through people and that's
(18:05):
the role that clinicians liketherapist, like myself,
complain.
You know, we can help peoplethat need that little bit of
extra of extra help, you know,that need some.
Psychological input in order toget freedom from, from the kind
of stuff that we're talkingabout, pat, you know, that,
that, you know, that pain, thosefears, those negative beliefs,
(18:26):
you know, and the things thatpeople do to escape from them,
you know?
So, um, yeah, that's, that'swhat I think about all that up.
I totally agree with you.
That was the old thinking and Ialso heard a pastor saying.
And the way we were thinking itused to be once you become a
Christian, once you followJesus, that we discussed this in
(18:49):
spiritual warfare episode, thatoh, everything should be great.
Well, if I have a broken arm andI accept Jesus, he's probably
gonna make it possible for me toget to a doctor and get that
broken arm fixed.
Yeah.
You follow what I'm saying?
Yeah, I'm understand.
Yeah.
Just not just touch my hand andgo.
It's so much deeper and I thinkit's very dangerous thinking.
(19:13):
You've accepted Jesus.
You're born again, you're saved,and everything should be fine.
I know people that areChristians that have killed
themselves, that they just, lifejust tormented them and
tormented them.
They, you can listen to thedevil.
You cannot be following Jesus ornot getting the help that you
need.
I know people that are going,that are alcoholics, that are
(19:37):
sold out followers of Jesus,they attend these meetings.
They attend our AA meetingsconstantly.
They need that help.
They need the therapy, they needthe clinical, the clinical help,
the books that, that you read onit.
So I totally agree with that.
Um, that is pretty brilliantwhat the guy, what he said, it's
not all intact, but it could besomething that he put in your
(19:59):
head that stays with you.
My wife and I were having aconversation other, I don't even
know what it was about, uh, analbum, Crosby Steel's Nash, and
Young four Way Street.
You, you're a little too youngto have the best generation of
music.
Rich.
I don't know what you listen to,but you're right behind the
sixties and seventies and mostof it came outta Britain that
I've given you credit for.
(20:19):
But I had this great, this greatalbum and I, and we were talking
about it.
I was like, yeah, I was playingthe song and I said, yeah, I
don't have this anymore.
'cause my brother told me hisfriend broke it.
And then I started thinking, Iwas like, you know what?
I bet his friend didn't breakit.
Mike probably broke it'cause hewas always lying to me.
And 10 minutes later I'm talkingabout Mike taking my headphones,
tearing my headphones up, and Istart thinking and I can feel
(20:43):
myself actually thinking aboutthat moment in childhood when my
brother was being an abusivebrother to me.
Uh, and I just think that ifthat's little stuff like that is
always in our head.
If you are somebody that.
That maybe was bullied as achild, that was rejected, that
was, um, you know, that hadfailings, had fears as a child,
(21:08):
didn't feel love as a child.
I think that stays with you forthe rest of your life.
I think your, your yeah, it 100%does.
Right?
And, and it doesn't have to, butlike you will carry it with you
and like we have all these, andlook to some extent was.
We're, we're supposed to, right?
The way that we view the world,the way that we view our place
(21:28):
in it, the way that we viewothers within the world, right?
The way that we view ourselves,it, it's forged in childhood.
It's supposed to be.
That's where we learn how to,you know, how to engage with the
world, but, but sometimesthere's too much adversity.
There's too much difficulty.
(21:49):
There's too much.
Things like rejection andabandonment.
We all experience that to onedegree or another, right?
There's no, nothing exempts usfrom that, but when there's too
much, it gets lodged, it getsstuck, and it causes this kinda
psychic pain, you know, thisintrapersonal conflict.
And then so often that arepeople that, that I meet, you
(22:11):
know, in my practice that.
The ones who, the way they foundto cope is through drugs,
through addictive sex, throughalcohol, through, you know,
gambling, whatever it might be,right?
Because it, it, it somehowsoothes the pain.
And it's funny'cause that worksdifferent for different people.
If you look at heroin addicts,you know, as far heroin addicts,
(22:33):
right?
Among other things.
But heroin addicts, often whatwas missing was comfort and
nurture.
Yeah, because heroin is, youknow, it's, you know, there's
this, just this, certainly atfirst, this immense sense of
comfort and ease.
Right.
You know, if you look at acocaine addict, it's often what
they were lacking wasstimulation.
(22:55):
Yeah.
Um, so it's, you know, the, the,the, the drug that someone
chooses will often reflect whatwas missing.
Childhood.
That's, that's a veryinteresting thing.
The nickname for, um, heroin.
Certainly in this country, oneof the old school nicknames for
heroin was, it was calledMother's Love.
(23:16):
Yeah, mother's Love.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That was, that was a revelation,which you said, because as I
told you, I never did theheroin.
I never did the heroin.
'cause it never showed up in mytown.
Because as a teenager I wasdoing everything.
But I did the cocaine.
And I've told you before, Iwasn't, I had mother's love, you
know, I'm the guy that lovedChristmas.
I had the mother's love the dadtaking me to the ball game and,
(23:39):
you know.
My dad was a little bit of ahard case, but I had that
growing up.
But you just said something Inever thought about.
The one that goes for thecocaine, which I did, uh, as
we've discussed, is looking forstimulation.
Well, I have a thought, Patrick,I could share with you if you
would be interested about your.
(23:59):
Story.
Yeah.
Can you tell, you, tell me whatyou think.
Like, I'm willing to be wrong,right?
But you, there was lots of lovein your house.
You know, I've read your bookand we talk and stuff and we
talk on here and we talk off airand, you know, all that stuff,
right?
So you grew up, there was love,you know, lots of mum, you know,
your actual, your mum wasloving, your father was, was
(24:19):
present and attentive.
Um.
You, you, you sometimes refer toyour dad as a bit of a hard case
and he was a military man.
Right.
So I would guess the rules andregulations, you know, like some
quite probably quite rigid,strict boundaries in the house
growing up.
(24:40):
Yeah.
And then everything about howthings developed for you was the
opposite of that.
Rebellious, messy, yeah.
Like extreme, yeah.
Chaos.
Yeah.
I, I kind of think thateverything that you did was a
reaction to that rigidity.
(25:03):
Yeah.
And, um.
I think the cold coming for youprobably was,'cause it was there
and it was an active rebellion,you know?
And of course once you'veinjected a drug like that, it's
extremely addictive and you didwell to get away from it.
But that would be my, um,formulation of what, what you
experienced, what, what you makeit a.
(25:24):
Chills when you said it.
Fuck it.
Never really, that never reallyhit me.
You know, that's why I said Ialways like talking about this.
'cause I'm always trying tothink back in the childhood, but
I didn't experience that traumaand I think you may, I think you
may have just gone right overthe target because that's what I
was doing.
You said why did you drink theMr.
(25:46):
Clean?
I was just, I was alwaysrebelling.
And I was the third, I had anolder brother, second older
brother, I mean a, uh, two olderbrothers.
And then I was a little pooky.
And if you ever, you know, ifyou ever look into quite often
little number three, littlePooky will be the salesman,
which I was, I was a topsalesman with the insurance
(26:08):
company I was in.
I was a top performing executivewith that insurance company.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and then I quit and I becamea.
Comedian, they end up in theentertainment business or
something.
Um, I think you're exactlyright.
It was rebelling.
I was, you, I was justconstantly, you know, creating
the chaos.
I can remember somebody askingmy brother like, what is wrong
(26:30):
with Pat?
He has everything and, and thenthe next thing you know, Pat's
going, has everything going forhim, but.
You know, last night he went outand ran his car into a tree, or
last night for, he, he doesn'tneed food, but him and his
friend just got caughtburglarizing, a convenience
store.
(26:50):
So I think you just nailed thehead.
You just hit the nail on thehead.
Well, and an interesting pointthat comes outta that, which is
really important, I think for,you know, for the listeners is
like it, you know, like, itdoesn't have to be like an
obvious, I.
Like trauma, you know, likeabuse, violence, neglect,
growing up with a alcoholism,sexual abuse.
(27:13):
You know, it doesn't have to bethose things.
Sometimes it's much more subtle,you know, sometimes it's much
more subtle, but, but like, oh,you know, we can usually find
the roots of.
Dysfunctional behavior in, youknow, back in, in childhood.
'cause all of that, all of thatbehavior, all serves a purpose.
This is a really importantpoint, right?
It's like, I know we're goingkind of going all over the place
(27:35):
a little bit, but I think it'svaluable, right?
It's like.
All that behavior serves apurpose.
Right?
Like in a really messy way.
Yeah.
So for you though, you know,like, I think anyway, and I'm
not telling you like, I'm awarethat we're kind of, you know,
potentially izing you on apodcast, right.
But like, like that, yeah.
(27:56):
There is that like, you know,that need for like rebellion for
messiness, you know, for, youknow, all of those kind of
things, which Sure.
You know, you know, a bit ofchaos, which are all things
that, that kid, kids need someof that.
Right.
Actually.
How, how a, you know, how ayoung, how a boy forms his
identity as a man is by startingto push back.
(28:17):
Yeah.
Against the boundaries, right.
And tests them and where do theylie and what can I do?
So like actually all of you'reacting out and all of the mad
stuff that you got up to, likeit all actually served a
purpose.
It did it in a way which washorrific, you know?
And like dangerous.
Yeah.
But it all served its purpose.
My drug addiction served apurpose.
(28:37):
I was so full of like anxietyand self-loathing, you know,
that, uh.
I needed someone to take theedge off of that.
And to be honest with you, if Ihadn't become a drug addict,
right, I think in a very goodchance I would've killed myself.
'cause what was going on insideof me was so painful.
Yeah.
So it all serves its purpose,right?
All of these things we do, theyserve.
(28:57):
Their purpose is just sometimesthey do it in a way which is so
dysfunctional.
And destructive that has to, hasto stop, has to stop, man.
That's some insight.
I just, I never really thoughtof that.
When you, the kind of, the lightbulb went off when you said the
cocaine is going for the charge,the other's going for the love.
(29:21):
I've always wondered where thetwo were, because there's, a
correlation, but there's a bigdifference there.
And that's what I was lookingfor the thrill.
Mm-hmm.
So I never really, um, neverreally thought of that.
Uh, while we have time, can Iread part two real quick?
Yeah, let's give it a go.
We can.
Talk about this another, youknow, a bit later on in our
(29:42):
schedule, but let's give it awhile.
Okay?
Let me just do this real quickand we will, uh, see what the
body remembers.
The somatic side of addiction,addiction is more than a mental
pattern.
It's in a bodily response tooverwhelm.
That's the core insight I gainedfrom training with somatic
trauma expert, uh, BA waRothschild.
(30:03):
Author of the Body rememberswhen trauma occurs, the nervous
system can get stuck insurvival, states fight, flight,
or freeze.
In this state, the body nolonger feels safe.
Even when the environment is formany.
Addiction becomes a way to numb,escape, or artificially
regulate.
This dysregulated system, RothChild's trauma-informed approach
(30:23):
teaches that before diving intochildhood memories of en inner
child work, clients must firstlearn to regulate their body.
This means building awareness ofsensations like shallow
breathing.
Chest tightness or restlessnesswithout judgment.
Once some degree of somaticsafety is in place, can deeper
psychological work like innerchild healing proceed with the
(30:45):
overwhelming the system?
In part three, I'll share howcombining these two frameworks,
uh, CAPA's any inner child workand Rothschild's somatic
approach creates a powerful pathduring long term recovery.
This sounds like you're kind ofcontinuing on what you, what you
were saying for many addictionbecomes a way to escape.
Um.
The AR and artificially regulatethe dysregulated system.
(31:08):
So you're saying for a lot ofpeople in addiction, they have a
dysregulated system that'scoming from, from childhood.
Yeah.
Most pe you know, most, if notall, people in addiction like
it, it is an issue.
Know it's an issue of emotionalregulation and one way or
another, you know, people that,that they're really kind of down
in a part of their nervoussystem that's like kind of.
(31:30):
Should be for like calm andrelaxation, but actually they've
kind of dropped past that andthey're into sort of being quite
like, you know, shut down,dissociated, disconnected, or
often people, like they're up,they're, they're, they're up too
high.
You know, they've gone into thepart of their nervous system
that's responsible for activity,you know, for moving forward,
for getting stuff done.
(31:52):
Now they've shot kind of pastthat and they're into fight or
flight, you know, and, um.
So helping people to kind of beable to regulate their state and
stay in that kind of, you know,more the optimal parts of their
nervous system.
Is really key.
And when you start to talk aboutand remember traumatic memories,
(32:19):
right?
Like then you, people becomedysregulated.
So you have to be able toregulate, like if you're gonna
dive into the, into the kind ofmaterial that sometimes you have
to look at during inner childwork.
So you have to be able to helppeople regulate.
Otherwise actually it justbecomes kind of hurtful, you
know?
It just becomes harmful.
So part of the inner childprocess that I use or.
(32:41):
Use in the model that I'mtalking about there, it is about
helping people to start to putlike a narrative together of
their lives.
Why they've acted in certainways, why they've thought in
certain ways, why they've feltin certain ways, you know?
It doesn't mean reliving everysingle event.
It definitely doesn't need to bethat.
It definitely, it shouldn'treally be that, but it is about
(33:03):
starting to, oh yeah, thatrelationship with mum, that was
like that and dad was like thatand that left me feeling like
this.
And actually that how that playsout to me today, is that right?
But when you start getting intothat kind of territory, it's
dysregulating, you know?
So you need to be able to helppeople to regulate.
Okay.
Feel that whatever it is that'scome up, regulate, regulate,
(33:23):
regulate.
Whatever's come up, regulate,regulate, regulate, and then
that, that way you can kind ofmove through the process,
release some of the emotionalcharge, gain an understanding of
the story.
Also, you sort of teach peoplehow they can manage their
emotional state day to day.
And that's where the magic, youknow, that's a big part of where
(33:43):
the magic happens.
Uh, do you think, and I say thisbecause I just, I know people.
That are stressed out in lifeand they're quick to, it could
be a woman that's, got childrenand a husband and they always
feel like they can't, you know,they're always having to stress
(34:05):
to kind of measure up.
They, and goes back to childhoodwhere, uh.
The parents were always, or thefather was always giving'em a
hard time or not accepting theway, I don't, I'm not saying
this correctly, I just think alot of people that they still
react as adults.
Based on what they did aschildhood.
(34:26):
From childhood.
It could be from the parents orI didn't measure up, I guess
what I'm trying to say, peoplethat say I didn't measure up.
I know people that do thatthey've, you know, they were
told or made to feel like theydidn't measure up when they were
young.
And now that they're old, thesame thing is still there.
You know, it's like I've, I'vegotta do this for my husband, I
gotta do this for my spouse.
(34:47):
I've gotta always be perfectbecause I, it goes all the way
back to childhood, not gettingthat approval, not getting that
love and that type of thing.
Do you, do you think I'm ontosomething there?
I think it, it's very accurate.
Yeah, it's very accurate.
Yeah.
But look, this stuff comes in,you know, it's been spoken about
(35:07):
for years in different ways.
You know, core beliefs, youknow, internal drivers and
injunctions.
You know, you know, you can drawon lots of different sort of
schools of thoughts.
You've got internal familysystems now.
Um, there's all sorts of, lotsof different.
Schools of psychology havelooked at this in this sort of
(35:29):
material with slightly differentemphasis, emphasis with slightly
different terminology, with somephilosophical differences.
Um, you know, I go, he go allthe way back to Freud, you know,
with the e the ego and the superego and, and Yung with his
archetypes.
You know, the two likegodfathers of psychotherapy,
modern psychotherapy.
(35:49):
In a child is what we're talkingabout.
And in a child, yeah.
It's about how the unconsciousmind is impacted by the events
of childhood when thepersonality is forming and those
play out in our adult lives inways that we're not aware of and
sometimes.
One of the simplest definitionsof therapy, which really
captures what it is in anutshell, is making the
(36:11):
unconscious conscious.
Because if the unconsciousbecomes conscious and all of a
sudden we understand why we'reacting in certain ways, why are
we feeling certain ways, why wethink in certain ways, then we
can do something about it.
And if we aren't aware of it,then we can't, you know, we're
just kind of caught in thecurrent and eddies of our
underlying psychology, and thatcan be a very painful place to
(36:33):
be.
You know, like the, you know,the, the woman who keeps ending
up in a relationship with thesame man, but with a different
face, you know?
Yes.
Like, you know, the person who,regardless of what they achieve,
they never, ever feel goodenough.
They always feel like a fraud.
They always feel like they'regonna get caught out.
You know, the person who fearsrejection constantly, even
though there's no evidence thatthey are going to be rejected,
(36:55):
you know, all of these thingscan play out again and again and
again and again and again.
And they can, you know, they canchange, you know, life from
living to, to existing orsurviving, and that's very sad.
I think that's a, that that's agood, good way to, to leave it
there.
I think you're exactly right.
So the, they keep playing out,they keep creating a reality by
(37:19):
what's going on in theirsubconscious mind, and it's just
something that I've alwaysthought that you carry all of
that, um, throughout yourchildhood.
And you take it out on a lot ofpeople.
If you've been rejected, if youwere rejected at a young age,
you're not gonna be as trustingto somebody that might have
earned your trust.
You're always thinking thatcould happen to you.
(37:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you, I mean, look, one thingI would like, I wanna say before
we end Pat, is like, like, sofor me, like really, I did a lot
of therapy.
I did many years of therapy.
I continued to struggle after,long after I got clean.
I found Jesus and like J.
You know, like coming to faithwas all my, it was like the
missing ingredient, you know?
(38:02):
It was like the missingingredient.
And all of a sudden things fellinto place.
You know, I got touched, I gothealed.
You know, I was washed, clean,and actually that.
But look, therapy helped.
But it was still always astruggle.
Inter, you know, meeting Jesus,everything started to change,
you know, and um, the therapieshave been a really important
(38:24):
part of that picture, and itcontinues to be a really
important part of the picture.
But, you know, without Jesus,it's like for me.
You know, and I often thinkthis, the, the, the more
troubled amongst us, pat Yeah.
Um, psychology on its own, itwill only take you so far.
Um, so yeah, this is none ofthe, none of what we're talking
about today is, uh, analternative to, uh, to, to
(38:49):
Jesus.
But it is a good add on.
Yeah.
Bringing out that you have aclinical take on.
What happens in our childhoodthat I think Satan uses over and
over to contact over and overtorment us.
And that's what's so interestingto talk to you.
You had the physical addiction,actually, you've, you have
(39:12):
provided so a free analyzationof me today because that you, I
got chills when you said that.
I was like, well, that does makesense.
I was one that was searching forthis thrill.
But I will tell you that when I,because.
Everyone's different.
When I became a true follower ofJesus, I was healed.
I mean, boom, I startedfollowing God.
(39:35):
So see, I didn't have thatphysical addiction, so you and I
come from different backgrounds.
It changed.
I decided I am first.
I decided I was gonna followGod.
As you read my book, I became abeliever in my mind.
That's a whole differentepisode, uh, becoming a
Christian and becoming a realfollower of Jesus.
But I became a.
Christian and all of a sudden Idoing the bad stuff, eh, I
(39:55):
didn't wanna do it, but when Ibecame a follower of Jesus, I
was healed from it.
Or heard Alice Cooper, uh, youknow what I'm talking about,
right?
Alice Cooper, the musician.
Yeah.
The, the musician.
Yeah.
Peace.
I came to Jesus.
I was just healed and I wasmyself, but one size doesn't
fits all.
I know people that are.
(40:16):
Sold out followers of Jesus.
They've gotta be in these 12steps.
They've got to be, they, theyneed the therapy, they need the
help.
So that's why we like to combinethe two in our conversation.
Again, the friend of mine thatI'd like for you to meet one
day, um, when you come back toMississippi, Dr.
Beverly Smallwood, she is a.
Sold out follower of Jesus, buther practice is all about,
(40:40):
bringing people, the therapy,the help and, um, everything
just like you do.
Yeah.
So I think that's veryimportant.
And, and the key is, I will tellyou the thing with me and you
when it comes right down to it.
We were incredibly miserablepeople.
And we, in our firstconversation, realized that we
(41:00):
were filled with joy, filledwith peace, filled with
happiness, and there was onecommon denominator.
Jesus, although we didn't knowit during the conversation, we
didn't know it until we had aconversation, until we had a
conversation later on.
So I don't think it was anaccident that, uh, that we
started having a conversation.
But, um, I've just alwaysthought that I know people and I
(41:21):
can just tell by theirreactions.
And a lot of times, just like myquestion about Christmas, a lot
of what their troubles they havein their life doesn't have to be
addiction.
It could be troubles in marriageor, or aggravations and things.
It.
All can spur back to whathappened when they were in
childhood.
But for me, because so manypeople had the rejection I've
(41:43):
told you before, I got dumped bygirlfriends a couple of times
and that kind of stuck with me.
I had no idea that God wasplaying the long game and he had
this woman that I never thoughtI, I could ever in a million
years have a wife like I have.
Yeah.
Destroyed back then.
And when I met my wife, I'mlike, yeah, it's probably just a
(42:04):
matter of time before this isgonna blow up on me.
Uh, but being the woman of God,she was, uh, it more and more
realized, no, this is the personthat, that God had for me.
But Jesus had a plan for mylife.
Uh, go ahead.
You were about to say something.
Yeah.
No, it's'cause there's that, youknow, it's like, look, God works
(42:24):
all things for good.
Right.
But then we know that the en theenemy, you know, he's, he's
here, he, he, he walks aroundlike a Roy lion looking to the
vs.
Right.
And sometimes it's, you know, I,I see that as a stumbling point
for many comings into fate.
It's like, why did I have tosuffer the way that I suffered?
You know, like, why me?
You know?
And I think it's complicated,right?
(42:44):
It's like, well, we know theenemy's doing what the enemy's
doing.
Right?
But then also, I think at thesame time, almost paradoxically.
For me, God, God worked allthose things for good.
So the enemy does what he does,but if we are able to kind of
like have faith and kind of, youknow, embrace Jesus, then we can
be.
Kind of healed and you know,redeemed and transformed, and
(43:06):
then actually all of thosepainful experiences.
You know, I wouldn't be sad.
I don't know what I'd be doing.
Maybe I'd be working at a bankor something, who knows, you
know?
But like I wouldn't be doingwhat I was doing unless I'd been
through what I'd been through.
I wouldn't be able to helppeople unless I'd experienced
what I'd experienced.
I wouldn't be able to help themthe way that I help them now,
you know?
So he does work all things forgood, but.
(43:28):
That can still involve a lot ofsuffering.
'cause we live in a fallenworld, sadly.
And there's, you know, the, the,the millions of darkness are,
you know, they're amongst us andthey're, they're very real, you
know, so it's a complicatedpicture.
But, um, yeah, there we go.
To close on that, actually, mystruggle has been one of the
(43:49):
greatest blessings, which is awhole nother.
Podcast.
If you come through the struggleand you've seen the dark, you've
seen the struggle, you've seenthe misery, then you have the
joy and the peace that Jesus canbring you.
I enjoy everything I do now.
I mean, it's just, I neverwould've been that I was the guy
that you just, you justpsychoanalyzed.
(44:12):
20 minutes ago that I might havebeen searching, for the
excitement because I kind ofwas, I always needed.
So I would sit in school going,this is killing me.
I need to go outside and break awindow or something.
But after going through all ofthose struggles, I just have
peace.
I have joy.
I can sit by myself.
(44:32):
I love solitude.
I left just sitting around wherebefore it was like I had to be
doing something.
You were gonna have one finalthought.
Well, um, it, it's nothingmajor.
Pat.
We could have discussed this offbetter, but I was gonna say,
should I send the invoice toyour email or shall I WhatsApp
it to Yeah, so yeah, send it tomy people and, um.
(44:55):
I will have them.
Hey, could you guys cut Richard,a three party post dated check
and get it in the mail acrossthe pond.
It was very valuable, rich.
It truly was.
And I hope what we pleasure,hope we have talked about today
is valuable to uh, to ourgrowing audience.
So, alright, rich, appreciateyou checking in with me, uh,
today.
(45:15):
I know you had to kind ofsqueeze in there.
Because you've had a busy, busyweekend.
So, uh, I will see you next weekand uh, to everybody out there,
God bless you all.
God bless you all.
I.
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