October 28, 2025 • 38 mins
Pat and Richard discuss the common feeling that God is not pleased with us, and we don't deserve or measure up to His love, because of what we've done in the past or are not doing now. They relate through personal experience how wrong that is, and that God's love is unconditional, and He takes great delight in us regardless of our past or present shortcomings.
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Episode Transcript
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Pat (00:23):
And welcome to the two Unlikely Christians podcast.
I am comedian and recoveringbuffoon, pat McCool.
And, now across the pond toEsteem Psychotherapist and
Addiction Specialist, and theman who was the inspiration for
all of Adele's love songs.
Richard
Rich (00:44):
Turrell.
That is a nice introduction.
Thank you.
Um, yeah, they never, they'realways quite tragic, aren't
they, though?
Adele's love songs, you know, soI don't generally they're not
always filled with, um, withJoy.
Anyway, um, yes, here I am,Patrick recovering, um, uh,
recovering.
(01:07):
Punctual person today, so sorryfor being late, but here we go.
And, um, that,
Pat (01:11):
That, that's quite all right.
You got a lot going on.
You got the marriage coming upand you know, I was, I was, I
was thinking about you last weekbecause didn't you, didn't y'all
just were just getting yourjewelry for the wedding, right?
The rings?
Yep.
Rich (01:23):
Yep.
Pat (01:23):
Yeah.
You weren't in Paris by anychance.
Last week,
Rich (01:28):
were you?
No, sadly not, man.
Sadly not.
Um, you weren't like hangingaround the Louvre or scaling
walls.
No, no, no.
You'd have just got a nice factchecking the post pattern, like,
you know, it was fun while itlasted all the best, you know,
um, take this in lieu of anyfuture royalties.
(01:48):
Yeah.
And, um, I'd be off, I'd beliving in like a bait, whatever,
you know, like on the sea base.
Like a James Bond villain.
I think I'd, I'd probably wantone of those, you know, and it
would rise up on legs from timeto time.
Um, but yeah, no, no, no, no.
Jewel, no, no priceless jewels,um, being kind of separate take,
you know, separated outta their,um, their housings and divvied
(02:10):
up in the back room.
That's not happening, sadly.
Well,
Pat (02:14):
I was gonna ask now, what do you call the, the bathroom
in, in England?
Rich (02:19):
Well,
Pat (02:21):
it says the loop.
Rich (02:23):
Well, no, there's different with one of them may,
I dunno if you wanna write someof this down, but, so one of the
names we had for the bathroom isthe bathroom.
Yeah.
But right one like, but thatrefers to a room with a bath in
it.
Yeah.
Right.
So that's, that's how we definea bathroom.
So it would be a room whichcontains a bathroom.
It's obviously, you use it todescribe like the room with the
toilet in Yeah, the watercloset.
(02:48):
Uh, you would see the initialswc.
Still occasionally to describe atoilet, but we wouldn't, that is
not like no one, like if yousaid, oh, excuse me, where's the
water closet?
In a restaurant like me and myprospective father-in-law and
fiance,
Pat (03:06):
if I'm over there, if I'm over there trying to sound cool
and international.
That's not gonna work.
Rich (03:11):
Uh, no.
You just, you honestly, you, youwouldn't, you wouldn't.
I, I, I was going to, I dunnowhat you word to use to describe
you, like what you would soundlike.
Probably none would beparticularly suitable in this
forum, but yet, no, you woulddefinitely not sound cool.
You would sound probablystrange.
People would look at you.
You would probably, as you cameback from the toilet, once it
(03:33):
worked out what it was you wereasking for, you'd probably
notice the weight is whisperingto each other and pointing at
you.
Um, yeah, and the bill wouldarrive on your table as the last
bite into your mouth.
I think that they'd probably bequite glad for you to leave at
that point.
Yeah.
Classic British hospitality,
Pat (03:51):
right?
But the LUV is not the name fora bathroom.
Rich (03:55):
LLO.
Pat (03:56):
Oh, the l
Rich (03:57):
Oh, the lu not
Pat (03:58):
the lu.
Yeah, yeah,
Rich (03:59):
yeah, yeah.
No, no.
The lou like, I'm gonna justgonna go and use the Lu.
Yeah.
That would still be somethingthat was said.
Pat (04:05):
Yeah.
Rich (04:05):
I got
Pat (04:06):
Well, I see, I knew that wa I knew that wasn't you, uh,
doing the heist.
I, it was actually, you know,it's a Frenchman that did the
heist because it didn't happenuntil nine 30 in the morning.
Rich (04:18):
It is that, yeah, there's that because, you know,
Pat (04:21):
the French want that, that work, that, that life work
balance, that's, Hey, we'regonna pull a major, you know,
you know, priceless, millionsheist.
We just don't wanna start tooearly.
How about, let's go over thereabout nine 30.
Rich (04:34):
Nine 30?
Yeah.
After some coffee, you know, acroon, you know, a couple of,
like couple of cigarettes and apavement cafe, you know.
A lot
Pat (04:46):
of stress on herself.
I think if Ms.
Prince or Americans, we'd atleast try, we at least tried it,
you know, maybe six or sevenbefore everybody got in there.
But, um, still a pretty amazingthing.
So, um, well anyway, glad, goodto see you there.
So today what we want to talkabout, um, is our topic is God
is not mad at you and we gotthis as, uh, from.
(05:11):
Someone I mentioned in our lastepisode, this girl that I was
talking to that had, was westarted talking and she was
telling me.
How she was feeling bad aboutherself, that she felt like, you
know, God may, you know, shewasn't measuring up, wasn't
doing enough of this, felt like,you know, the things she had
done in her past, you know, Godwould be mad at her, this type
(05:31):
of thing.
And, uh, completely stinkingthinking because absolutely none
of us measure up.
To God's love.
Uh, it it starts.
As a matter of fact, Jesus' mostimportant commandments, pretty
much left us in a position wherewe can almost never fulfill.
(05:52):
You know, what he needed us todo?
If you remember when they askedhim, uh, teacher in, uh, Matthew
26 36.
39 teacher, what is the greatestcommandment in the law?
And Jesus replied, love the Lordyour God with all your heart and
all your soul, and with all yourmind.
This is the first and greatestcommandment.
And the second is like it.
Love your neighbor as you loveyourself.
(06:14):
Well, right there, he just laidout two things that I don't
think we can do.
We aspire to'em.
We aspire to love the Lord withall God, with all our hearts.
I don't know if we, you know,any of us achieve that, but
loving your neighbor isyourself.
I certainly don't do, I aspireto it.
Mm-hmm.
(06:34):
But I don't.
Mm-hmm.
So, so the point is, I, Istarted telling this girl, you
know, all of the things, youknow, my past, this type of, of
things pointing out to her.
Um, anyway, you had somethingthat you wanted, you wanted to
read for us, and then we'll gofrom there.
Rich (06:50):
I mean, I guess just to respond first, to give it a
little bit of context, likeYeah, I mean, it's something
I've heard again and again and,um, you know, I've sat with
guys, you know, in the course ofmy work and, and you know, I'm
friends and you know, peoplekind of trying to make their way
into recovery.
And um, you know, I've heard itword for word.
It's like I don't measure up.
I've broken, I've broken up nineoutta the 10 Commandments, you
(07:14):
know, and I, you know, I've satwith a couple of people who
broke all 10, you know, um, orat least willing to admit it.
Um, and it's so, well, how can Iqualify?
And that it's the.
It's a difficult thing to getacross.
It's like that's the wholepoint, you know?
That's the whole point.
You know, and it's like we callourselves two unlikely
Christians.
Right.
Actually, we're the most likelyChristians there are.
(07:35):
'cause we were like lost andbroken.
Right.
And that's who we came for.
Right.
So it, but it's a difficultthing for people to wrap their
head rounds, but their headsround and, and I think some of
that gets perpetuated in kind oflike modern Christian dialogue.
You know, it is like this slipback towards.
I call it like neo legalism, youknow, that you have to be, you
(07:57):
know, bright, positive,righteous in order to get, earn
his love, right.
Whereas actually the whole pointwas like, you can never be those
things like consistently.
Right?
And he comes, you know, he cameto love people like, you know,
in their like imperfections andtheir brokenness and stuff like
that.
It's like, you know, he says,um.
(08:19):
You know, you don't call adoctor for the, well, you know
the, you know, the doctor comesfor the sick.
Right.
So anyway, there's a book, I'vementioned it in earlier
episodes.
It was a hugely influential partof me really not coming to
Christ.
'cause I was already aChristian.
I already believed I'd alreadybeen baptized, but.
Stepping into a personalrelationship with Jesus and
(08:42):
realizing how much he loved you.
This book, which is a bookcalled The Rag Mucking Gospel by
a guy called Brendan Manning,uh, who died in 2013, who I
would highly recommend, um,people look at his, his stuff.
There's stuff on YouTube.
He's wrote a number of bookslike.
Anyway, fantastic.
Huge part of my journey.
And, um, the first chapter inthe book talks about this modern
(09:04):
church culture that is notuniversal, but can be observed,
where it's like you have to be Xand Y and z, you know, that's
what a good Christian is, right?
And, um, you know, he talksabout that and that the chapter
is called something is radicallywrong.
He's talking about that cultureand he talks about how the, the
message of grace and love hasgot, has got lost.
Right.
Um, in some quarters.
(09:25):
And then, and so this is anexcerpt from that that I'd like
to read.
And it says, I'll get quiteemotional reading this part,
right?
It says, here is revelation.
Bright is the evening star.
Jesus comes for sinners forthose as outcast, as tax
collectors, and for those caughtup in squa, choices of failed
dreams.
He comes for corporateexecutives, street people,
(09:46):
superstars, farmers, hookers,addicts, IRS agents, AIDS
victims, and even used carsalesman.
Jesus not only talks with thesepeople, but he dines with them.
Fully aware that his tablefellowship with sinners will
raise the eyebrows of religiousbureaucrats who hold up the
robes and insignia of theirauthority to justify their
condemnation of the truth andthe rejection of the Gospel of
(10:09):
grace.
This passage should be read,reread, and memorized.
Every Christian generation triesto d the blind and brightness of
its meaning because the gospelseems too good to be true.
We think that salvation belongsto the proper and the pious,
those who stand at a safedistance from the back alleys of
existence, clucking theirjudgments at those who have been
(10:29):
soiled by life.
And I mean, for me, it's allthere like, it's like.
It's like he came, you know, my,you know, I, I, I truly believe
that if Jesus came today, right,like if he walked among us
today, where would he go andsit, you know, like, you know,
we don't have.
Things the same way as they werethen.
(10:50):
Right?
So, you know, back then he, youknow, he, he stopped with like
lepers and the la and women thathad bled for years and, you
know, these people that wereoutcast, right?
Where would he be today, pat?
I really believe he'd sit in,he'd sit in the crack houses.
Do you know what I mean?
He'd, he'd walk down the streetswhere women sell themselves for
sex to pay for their next hit.
You know, he'd, you know, hewould sit with the people that
(11:13):
no one else wants to sit with,you know?
I really believe that.
So that's something I'm prettypassionate about.
That's why when you asked me ifI wanted to do this topic, I was
like, yes.
Hard.
Yes.
Pat (11:24):
That's fascinating.
That's Brendan Brennan Manning.
Rich (11:27):
Brennan Manning.
B-E-B-R-E-N-N-A-N, and thenManning, M-A-N-N-I-N-G.
Pat (11:36):
Well, bobble pretty, pretty much clearly.
It illustrates what, what youjust said because that's who he,
that's who he did hang out with.
That's who he did come from.
Uh, like you said that the docdoctors don't go after the well.
And as I, I told this girl andthis girl had not had a lot of
transgressions in her life.
Matter of fact, she had a lot oftrauma also.
(11:57):
And, uh, so she had reason forsome of her rebellion.
And I just started listening,uh, listening to her.
I was like, you know, she was 22years old.
I said, you know, by the time Iwas 22, by the time I was 18, I
had, uh.
Burglary, shoplifting, DUIs,stolen cars, selling drugs,
(12:21):
public, drunk, all of thesethings.
And I pointed out to her, Isaid, and not just, but those
weren't the, those weren't thebad things.
I was fortunate by God's gracenot to.
Personally hurt anybody.
When I did, when I was doing allthose things, but I said where
my own personal regret is allthe people that I hurt along the
way by the person I was.
I mean, I actually went out and,and used people, not
(12:44):
intentionally, you know what Imean?
When you're going through the,the, the chaos of your life and
you're doing the drugs and youare at the blow end of the totem
pole and you're just trying to,to find some, um.
A bit of a way out of yourdisparity.
You use a lot of people and thenyou hurt a lot of people.
And I was explaining to her, Iwas like, I have, she was like,
well, I have regrets.
(13:04):
I'm like, well, I have regrets.
I was like, I stop and think youdon't go out and sin and do
these things and not.
Regret what you did.
But what you do is you escapethe punishment by following
Jesus because he went and paidthat price.
God sent his son to pay thatprice.
So that's all that, you don'thave to pay that anymore.
Yeah, you're gonna stop back andthink if you hurt people or you
(13:25):
did some things like that alongthe way.
But, uh, the fact is God lovesyou as his child.
And he illustrates that allthroughout the Bible.
And she was like, well,sometimes I think I don't, I
don't put enough.
Faith or, you know, there arethings God has done in my life
and then I don't trust him.
(13:47):
And I kind of explained to her,I said, well, yeah, well, I've
always, in my book, Icharacterize myself as like
Elijah.
Remember Elijah, God did allthese incredible miracles.
For Elijah, all of theseunbelievable.
He brought down rain.
He, he fed him with birds andravens and all of these things.
And right after he's done allthese things, the second
(14:09):
something starts going bad forElijah, he's sitting under a
tree and crying out to God like,oh God, you know, you've, you've
left me, or, you know, you'veleft me here alone.
And that's kind of, um, that'skind of how I, uh.
Looked at myself there, but Ionce, I just tried to explain to
her that this is, I, I've donefar more things in my life than
(14:30):
I've ever done, and God hasgiven me more joy, more peace,
more happiness than I've everdeserved.
So it's not that you're going toearn it, you, Jesus, earned it
for you.
Put your faith in it, put yourfaith in him.
You were about to, to have athought there.
Rich (14:45):
Yeah.
It's um.
It's all through the Bible,isn't it?
Like people like the apart, likethe disciples rolled around with
Jesus.
They watched him performmiracles.
They watched him walk on water.
They watched him feed 5,000.
They watched him feed 4,000.
You know, they watched him do,you know, heal, you know, bring
the dead back to life.
Yeah.
(15:05):
They watched him do all of thosethings, right.
And still they weren't sure, youknow?
Right.
Like, right.
Like he, you know, by the end oflike the gospels, he's saying to
them like, don't you get it yet?
Like, do you, you know, you thatdull, like, are you so dull?
That's, that goes through myhead sometimes when I'm in my
own doubt and my own lack offaith and my own.
Like, you know, like, I know heis taking care of me in this
(15:28):
way, this way, and that way, butlike, I'm not gonna, you know,
what about like, maybe I, youknow, what about this?
Maybe?
What about that?
You know, like, what if thishappens or I don't get enough
work, or, you know, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Right.
You know, so on my own doubt,like sometimes that runs through
my head sometimes, are you sodull?
You know, don't you get it yet?
You know, and actually you goright the way back to like, you
(15:50):
know, the beginning of the OldTestament, right?
Like the first books of the OldTestament.
Yeah.
You've got like.
You know, people that turn theirback on, on God.
Right.
It's like Moses comes down themountainside.
Yeah.
And he says like, look, lookguys, this is what we need to
do.
Yeah.
Right.
So like, don't make any idolsand, you know, worship God.
Like he's really, you know,that's sort of like a bit of a,
(16:10):
that's a hard line for him.
Yeah.
Just worship.
Right.
The rest of it we can work on,but just won't give him.
And then he got wandered off andthey're like, what?
What are we gonna do guys?
Oh no, let's make some idols.
You know, like it's like, youknow, constantly.
And yet there's the, you know,he's still there.
You know, he's still kind oflooks after and he's still there
(16:31):
and he's still provides for, youknow, a bit grumpy sometimes in
the Old Testament, but like he'sstill there, you know, it's like
part, you know, and that's kindof why.
That's part of our humanness,you know, is that, you know,
like to doubt, you know, to, tobe angry with, to turn our back
on, you know?
But he's still there.
He still loves us anyway.
(16:52):
Right?
We're still his children, right?
I think about it a bit likethis, pat sometimes is right.
It's like.
So I've been in a number ofromantic relationships in my
life.
Right.
And, um, as you know, that'ssometimes been a, they're so
troublesome area of my life.
Right.
But it's, I imagine being inrelationship with someone that,
like, you could get angry withthem, you know, you could like
(17:14):
turn your back on them, not talkto them for days or weeks or
months.
Yeah.
Just, you know, you could ignorethem when they're trying to talk
to you.
Yeah.
You might even, sometimes.
Not even believe they're real,you know?
And still they love you.
Do you know what I mean?
They love you just as much, andin fact, you, when you can't,
(17:37):
you can cheat on them.
Yeah, you can cheat, right?
Go away, you know, like, youknow, whatever, like worship,
false side rules, like the car,the watch, the money.
Yeah.
So you can cheat in thisrelationship, you can cheat on
the person and then you comeback and they actually love you
more.
Yeah.
Like the prodigal sum returns,right?
(17:57):
And it's like that's therelationship that's on offer
with Jesus.
Right?
That's the depths of his lovefor you.
Like, and you know, the factthat like you've done bad things
is what qualifies you for thatlove.
You know what I mean?
And it's not one of us withoutsin.
Right.
You know?
There is not one of us withoutsin.
(18:17):
Yeah.
Like.
Let he use without sin cast thefirst stone.
You know?
And I remember when I came in,like, I, I thought into faith.
Like I thought that was all.
Do you mean there's not one ofus without sin?
Like I've been trying to buildup my, like self-esteem and
understand that I'm actually nota bad person for all these
years.
And now you're telling meactually like I'm a, I'm a
sinner.
Right?
But like, actually there's realfreedom in realizing that no
(18:39):
one's without sin, you know?
But no one is without sin.
And actually if you go back tothe, you know, the origins of
the word sin, actually what itmeans is just stuff that.
Disconnects you from God andfrom God's purpose for your
life.
But that's it, you know?
Anyway, it's talking a lot.
Do you know what I mean?
But look, as I say, this issomething I'm like hugely, you
know, it lights me up thistopic, you know?
(19:00):
Yeah.
I see it as such a stumblingblock for people, you know?
Well, it,
Pat (19:04):
it does me because I run into people all of the time, and
that's how they feel.
They, they internalize.
I don't know if it's Satan.
I don't know if it's just usbeing human.
Mm-hmm.
A human.
Satan, as we talked about inspiritual warfare, constantly
telling you, you don't measureup, you're not good enough.
Uh, but Jesus is standing nextto God and he's our great
(19:24):
represent.
You know, he's up there speakingon our behalf.
And yeah, also because I wasreading, you know, if you think
about it, some of the greatestrock stars in the Bible.
I mean, uh, think about Davidfor example.
David had everything.
David had the kingdom.
David had everything going inhis life, had all the incredible
(19:45):
blessings of God.
And what did David do?
David literally went out andcommitted adultery with one of
his soldiers.
Actually, his soldier was inbattle.
He was supposed to be in thebattle'cause he was a king back
then.
Kings rode into battle, but hegot so high and mighty, he
stayed behind.
He committed adultery with thesoldier, then she gets pregnant
(20:06):
and does he come out and does heconfess and does he admit what
he did?
No, he has the guy killed soadultery and he didn't commit
that 10th.
Uh.
Commandment that, that youmentioned.
And I, I think I've hit nine outof 10 myself.
Uh, if, if that, if that's oneyou're talking about.
But David did that and God stillcalled him a man, after his own
(20:29):
heart and still loved him.
And he still one of the greatestpeople in the Bible that God
held up.
And you take, Paul, for example,I mean, before Paul became a
Christian, what was Paul doing?
Rich (20:43):
What's that?
He was called Saul, wasn't hebefore And then he was killing
Christians and you know, likejust, yeah, he was like
relentless.
Really?
He was like, like this, likesuper pharisee, basically, I
believe.
And he,
Pat (20:55):
yes.
Rich (20:56):
Like yeah, like really like fervent and um, yeah.
And was responsible for thepersecution and death of many
Christians.
Pat (21:04):
He was literally one of the worst.
He was one of the people thatyou would've thought, God, you
know, that they would've neverforgiven him for that.
But they turned around and usedhim there.
There are four books in theBible written by Paul, a guy
that killed Christians.
And we got people going out andgoing through life thinking, I
don't measure up.
God's mad at me for my past.
Or, I don't do enough of this,or I don't do enough of that.
(21:25):
And the greatest rock stars inthe Bible were some of the
biggest, dirt bags at one pointin time.
Mm.
And it's, um, I just just wannaget through people's heads that
God loves them, he's theirchildren, and he will always
love you.
And all those thoughts that arecoming into your mind, um,
(21:47):
they're just stinking thinking.
They're, yeah.
It's, it's not real.
You're children of God.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
'cause I have, uh, just a fewBible verses I that I wanted to
read on.
Uh.
Rich (21:58):
Well, just to talk about Paul A.
Little bit really.
So actually like, um, justdrawing on my little kind of
minuscule bit of theologicaltraining, so 13 or 14 books of
the New Testament traditionallyattributed to the Apostle Paul.
Um, you know, what's called thePauline Letters.
Um, theological scholarsuniversally agree on seven of
them being written by him.
(22:18):
Yeah, the others are thoughtshave been perhaps written on his
behalf.
Um, but yeah, seven of themuniversally agreed to be, have
been written by him.
So like, this is the guy, likethe most prolific guy, most
responsible.
Taking the, you know, andliterally know that his travels
like, were like a huge part ofthat.
So he got it to to Rome.
Right.
As I understand the history, youknow, he got it to Roman and the
(22:40):
Romans where, because of theempire was hugely responsible
for the spread of Christianityaround the world.
Right?
'cause they had this empire sothat the information was able to
travel from Rome around theworld.
And also the Romans were.
They believed in gods thatwalked among us because they
deified their, their emperors.
Right.
They're great emperors.
So actually to them they werelike able to wrap their head
(23:00):
around the idea that actuallygot like, at least it from their
perspective, a God could becomeman and more among us.
Right.
So like Paul's like, you know,he literally went from like
persecuting, like the verypeople, like in modern terms
that would be like me going tomy local church.
Right.
Like murdering people.
(23:21):
Yeah.
Then becoming like the mostprolific person that then
carried the Bible to the rest ofthe non, like to the
non-Christian world as it isnow.
Right.
In this hugely affected way.
Like that's the sort of like,that's the bar.
You know what I mean?
Like that's what we are dealingwith.
Yeah.
Like it's that, you know, it'sjust so, and he talk and Manning
(23:45):
talks about it, right?
So he talks about, and this issuch a great book, but just to
like, um.
Just to pull like a few wordsout of that, that bit that I
read, again, just to sort oflike underline them if you like,
it's like every Christiangeneration tries to dim the
blinding brightness of itsmeaning because the gospel seems
too good to be true.
(24:06):
And there's a bit, there's thisfabulous video on, um, YouTube
where they, they sort of takebits of.
Manning's, um, speech that hegave and they said it this
animation and it's amazing andit's, there's, there's this bit
where he, he's talking as Jesus,like as if this was stuff that
Jesus would say.
And he says, don't for onesecond mistake.
(24:26):
You are paled, conditionalwavering, Fairweather only love
for each other and the love thatI have for you.
Because it's almost like wecan't understand, like we don't
get it.
You know?
Our relationships that we havewith each other are, will always
be, to some extenttransactional.
Right?
Like there are things that I canand can't do in my relationship,
(24:48):
right?
And rightly so, right?
There are lines that if I crossthem the relationship or.
You know, be over.
I mean, obviously just about toget married in a Christian
sense, so there's a covenantthat's made and so on and so
forth.
But like, it would at least bevery, very badly damaged and
impaired, right?
Like if I did certain things,you know, it's transactional.
And our friendships, it's like,you know, if you know there's
(25:09):
certain conditions that aren'tmet in a friendship sooner or
later that friendship's justgonna fall to pieces, right?
So it's like we have this, youknow, our love that we have for
each other.
As much as we might not, not,might not want to think it is
conditional, right?
Yes.
His love's not like it'sunconditional, right?
Like once you've been saved andrepented, then things get
(25:30):
slightly more complicated,right?
But you'll still be loved,right?
You'll still be loved, right?
And it, but it's like we.
It's just such a hard concept tounderstand, like it's a hard
concept to fully grasp asChristians, I think.
Yeah.
That's like, it's a hard conceptto fully grasp, which is why
that message gets a little bitlost in some quarters.
(25:51):
Right.
But like, yeah, to anon-believer, it's just like,
look, like you might not be ableto understand this.
But like you, just, you, you areloved.
It doesn't matter what you'vedone, like it does not matter
what you've done.
Right?
So me and my fiance are doing analpha course at the minute,
which you have in the States aswell.
It's that introduction toChristianity.
(26:13):
I never did one.
And I talked to friends aboutdoing it, and I just, and I've
moved to a new area, so Ithought it would good.
What's it called?
The Alpha course?
Um, A-L-P-H-A.
They use it in the States,obviously not, not necessarily
super widespread.
Is it a merge thing or just No,it's an introduction to
Christianity.
Right.
Um, so I'm doing it because.
(26:36):
I'm new in the area.
I never did one.
I talk to people about doing it,but I've never done one.
So it's a little bit like beinga driving instructor that
doesn't know how to drive.
So I've gone to do it, butthere's this bit, the most
powerful, one of the mostpowerful testimonies I've ever
seen is a guy who lives in thenorth of England, you know, now
has his own church.
(26:57):
He's a pastor, you know, hasbrought loads of people to
Jesus, right?
And he was like, he was aprisoner for a long time.
He was that dangerous with him.
He went in for attempted murder.
He was that dangerous withinprison that he ended up, there's
a certain category of prisoner,they're in a cell on their own,
like anyone that deals with themwears full body armor because
(27:19):
they're that dangerous.
They'll attack the wardens andstuff like that.
And he got saved.
Yeah, like he got saved.
This is the guy that was, wasthat dangerous prisoner guy.
Yeah, yeah.
He got saved, you know, anyway,so it's like, look, it's on
offer for everyone.
Do you know what I mean?
Like just, you know, try and,it's just important to try and
(27:40):
open your mind and wrap yourhead around that possibility
that no matter how bad that,that you think the things you've
done, or he's here for you, man,that's here for you.
Pat (27:52):
That's an excellent point.
That is an excellent pointbecause it's unconditional love.
I think they're called agapelove and our, as human beings,
we can't process that.
So we always think that God'sthinking like we are so in a
relationship, we've always gottabe trying to, you know, do what
the other person wants, or tomeasure up.
God is not that way.
(28:14):
And I think that's, uh, I thinkthat's very hard for us to, you
know, in the Bible it says, Godsays, I don't, I know what the
scripture is, but I, you don'tthink I'm paraphrase, but you
don't think like me and I don'tthink like you.
So it's hard for us tounderstand how a, being a
creator of the universe.
Our Heavenly Father loves us theway he does, and you just want
(28:37):
to encourage people to, to knowthat God loves you, he's there
for you.
You put your trust in him.
Yeah, there's gonna be things,you can't just go out and do
whatever you want to do.
You're going to haverepercussions for the, for bad
things and for sin and for whatyou do in your life.
But God's love never leaves you.
And there's a few scripturesthat, uh, that di well, there's
(28:58):
a lot of scripture.
The Bible's full of it, but Ijust pulled a few of them if I
can.
Uh.
Just to read'em, but it says,but God demonstrate, uh, Romans
five eight.
But God demonstrates his ownlove for us in this.
While we were still sinners,Christ died for us.
It means he sent his.
Son, but people still reallycan't get around that.
(29:19):
They're like, well, it's Jesus.
No.
Jesus became a man and went downand went through, uh,
unbelievable torture and diedfor us so we can have the peace
and we can have the joy in theeverlasting life that's love for
somebody to send their onlybegotten son.
In John three, one it says, howgreat is the love?
The father has lavished on us.
(29:40):
That we should be calledchildren of God.
And it's an exclamation point.
And that is what we are with anexclamation point.
I mean, this is, God puteverything in the Bible to tell
us that he loves us that much.
And in Jeremiah 31, 3, I haveloved you with an everlasting
love.
(30:01):
I have drawn you.
With loving kindness and thenone of my favorites, uh,
Zephaniah three 17.
The Lord your God is with you.
He is mighty to save.
He will take great delight inyou.
He will quiet you with his loveand he will rejoice over you.
(30:22):
With singing, that means heliterally is rejoicing over you.
And that's hard for a human inour minds and our thought pro
process to get around.
And everyone should know thatyou literally have a father.
I used to always.
As I was coming along and Iwould stop and think and I, I
(30:42):
would picture,'cause none of usknow what God looks like, but I
would picture something, youknow him with a stern look
towards me.
Mm-hmm.
The closer I've come, the moreI've come to understand him and
the more I, I've, I don't forgetall of the things that he's done
for me in my life.
Like that 22-year-old girl, Iwent back and I started running
through.
I was like, well, you had atraumatic, how did you get outta
(31:04):
that?
And I started and she startedbringing, I'm like, yeah.
How did that happen?
Look what happened there.
God's been with you and he'sbeen watching you.
You're focusing on the bad.
You're not looking at all thetimes.
Look at you sitting here rightnow, that big smile on your face
and you, and you're thinking allthese thoughts and you're
getting your life together.
That's where God was bringingyou along and he's been there
(31:26):
and he's smiling at you.
And I, I started getting to thepoint a few years ago when I
would think, and when I wouldpray, I would feel God smiling
down at me not approving of allof my activity, but.
I love you, pat.
Just like he loved that girland, and you and everyone else
that's listening to us, andeveryone should just put that in
(31:49):
their heart and carry it withthem throughout their daily
lives.
You have any, uh, final thoughtsthere?
Rich (31:56):
Just, I guess I'll tell you what I was pondering on was
it's one thing to like think.
About these ideas.
It's another to experience it,you know, to really feel that
love.
And for me it took a while toget to that, you know, so it
(32:18):
was, you know, probably betweencoming in to like, you know,
starting to attend search andthe recovery ministry and then
believing and then beingbaptized and then feeling.
Deeply feeling that sense offorgiveness and then if, and
(32:38):
then kind of actually gettingwalloped and hit with the love.
Right.
Took, let's have a little thinkabout this part took about, it
was, it happened about 18 monthsin to the journey.
You know what I mean?
About 18 months in.
So like for me, I guess I'msaying that it's like if you
come to church for the firsttime and you don't feel loved
(32:59):
for it, like it's okay, youknow.
Like it's just open your mind tothat possibility.
And for me it was like I justhad to keep chipping.
I felt like I had so muchdarkness, you know, so much
darkness on me.
This is how I look at it now.
You know, I was so mired in theworld and drenched in seen and
soaked in shame and shackled.
(33:20):
You know, for me that stuff hadto be kind of chipped off bit by
bit, by bit, by bit by bit.
And it was about, I just keptturning up and I kept down to
church.
I kept talking to otherbelievers.
I kept reading my Bible evenwhen it didn't make any sense to
me.
I kept praying even when it feltabsolutely pointless.
Right?
And then it just, it kind ofhappened.
So now I get to the point, it'slike, I don't believe that God
(33:41):
loves me and I don't.
I think that God loves me andit's, you know, it's not, I
don't have faith that God lovesme.
It's like I know that God lovesme.
Like I felt it, like I felt it,you know, with such intensity.
And I felt it with lessintensity many times since, do
you know what I mean?
But it's like, I know that heloves me, but it took time to
get there.
So it's like, look, just.
(34:03):
Just like keep open your mind tothe possibility.
Keep turning up.
And, um, if you are as broken,half as broke, half as broken as
I was, you'll keep turning up.
Yeah.
And then, and then it, and itjust kind of happened for me.
So yeah.
I just, I guess wanted to saythat on, it's like, look, if,
if, if it doesn't make any senseto you and you got a church
(34:23):
first time a handful of timesand it's still, you don't kind
of feel that.
Like, that's okay.
You know, some people go, theyget the supernatural experience
of the order, you know, day oneand, and that's great, but that
wasn't my experience and there'snothing wrong with that.
Yeah, that's, that's my kind ofthought, closing thought,
Patrick.
Pat (34:43):
Closing thought.
Uh, and as I've told you before,mine was a lot longer than 18
months.
I was actually impressed withyou because you, you know, I,
it's, I think it's in yourpersonality.
You were like, I'm doing thisand I'm not procrastinating, and
you kept pounding.
I am one that just takes a longtime and mine took years.
Years, even when I decided I,I've made a decision to follow
(35:05):
God and I, I do think part of itwas, you know, I'm, I'm
believing in, I'm gonna believein God.
Uh, but I really didn't know inmy part, really, it was kind of
probably transactional on mypart.
I'm gonna believe in God'causeI'm tired of these bad things
that are happening to me.
But the bad things that werehappening to me was'cause I was
making dumb decisions.
I started making good decisions,good things were happening.
(35:27):
God was with me, but I still hadnot turned it all over.
God, I, you know, I had not beensaved.
I had, you know, I'd made adecision, but my heart had not
changed until I got to thatpoint.
You know, as we talked aboutwhen I was in the church and I
just gave it all up, that's whenthe peace, and that's when the
joy all came into me.
(35:49):
But I took a lot longer than 18months.
But it doesn't surprise me.
In your case, you know, youdecided you were gonna get a
college degree at 34.
You just.
You just went and got one rich.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And became the renowned, um,psychotherapist and addiction
specialist that you are now.
(36:11):
Uh, those are great words, rich,and I hope people are listening
to us just being encouraged bythat.
God loves you, he delights inyou, and it's hard for our human
minds to think about that.
And the reason why Richard and Ido this is just to encourage
people.
Because we have been the low ofthe lo.
Like I said, both you're nineand one on the commandments.
I'm not, I'm nine and one onthem too.
(36:34):
And I'm talking to people thatthink, I just don't know that,
uh, you know, God could everlove me because I, you know, it
just.
You know, they, they, theyhaven't come close to living
some of the lives and doing someof the damage and destruction
that you and I did along theway.
And that's why we have a passionjust to try to lift people up
and help them find the joy andthe encouragement that, that we
(36:54):
have and the trust.
So.
Uh, great words there, rich.
Brilliant as you.
You too,
Rich (36:59):
Patrick.
You too.
I see the
Pat (37:01):
big brain in the little thing coming off the back of
your head.
It's an r the big brain on rich.
So, and brain on rich.
Not just that.
Very, very thoughtful too.
You never really thought you'dbe, uh, referred to as that.
Richard Tull is a verythoughtful man.
Rich (37:19):
No, that wasn't on the cards, uh, a couple of decades
ago for sure, pap.
But um, yeah, thank, but thankyou, uh, for your kind words and
you know, you also someone who'sachieved a lot, even though you
play your cards a little bitcloser to your chest than I do.
So there I do.
Pat (37:37):
That I do.
All right man.
It was good talking to you andthanks for everybody joining us
and may God bless you all outthere and we will see you next
time.
Take care, rich.
Oh bless man.
See you later.
And welcome to the two Unlikely Christians podcast.
I am comedian and recoveringbuffoon, pat McCool.
And, now across the pond toEsteem Psychotherapist and
Addiction Specialist, and theman who was the inspiration for
all of Adele's love songs.
Richard
Rich (00:44):
Turrell.
That is a nice introduction.
Thank you.
Um, yeah, they never, they'realways quite tragic, aren't
they, though?
Adele's love songs, you know, soI don't generally they're not
always filled with, um, withJoy.
Anyway, um, yes, here I am,Patrick recovering, um, uh,
recovering.
(01:07):
Punctual person today, so sorryfor being late, but here we go.
And, um, that,
Pat (01:11):
That, that's quite all right.
You got a lot going on.
You got the marriage coming upand you know, I was, I was, I
was thinking about you last weekbecause didn't you, didn't y'all
just were just getting yourjewelry for the wedding, right?
The rings?
Yep.
Rich (01:23):
Yep.
Pat (01:23):
Yeah.
You weren't in Paris by anychance.
Last week,
Rich (01:28):
were you?
No, sadly not, man.
Sadly not.
Um, you weren't like hangingaround the Louvre or scaling
walls.
No, no, no.
You'd have just got a nice factchecking the post pattern, like,
you know, it was fun while itlasted all the best, you know,
um, take this in lieu of anyfuture royalties.
(01:48):
Yeah.
And, um, I'd be off, I'd beliving in like a bait, whatever,
you know, like on the sea base.
Like a James Bond villain.
I think I'd, I'd probably wantone of those, you know, and it
would rise up on legs from timeto time.
Um, but yeah, no, no, no, no.
Jewel, no, no priceless jewels,um, being kind of separate take,
you know, separated outta their,um, their housings and divvied
(02:10):
up in the back room.
That's not happening, sadly.
Well,
Pat (02:14):
I was gonna ask now, what do you call the, the bathroom
in, in England?
Rich (02:19):
Well,
Pat (02:21):
it says the loop.
Rich (02:23):
Well, no, there's different with one of them may,
I dunno if you wanna write someof this down, but, so one of the
names we had for the bathroom isthe bathroom.
Yeah.
But right one like, but thatrefers to a room with a bath in
it.
Yeah.
Right.
So that's, that's how we definea bathroom.
So it would be a room whichcontains a bathroom.
It's obviously, you use it todescribe like the room with the
toilet in Yeah, the watercloset.
(02:48):
Uh, you would see the initialswc.
Still occasionally to describe atoilet, but we wouldn't, that is
not like no one, like if yousaid, oh, excuse me, where's the
water closet?
In a restaurant like me and myprospective father-in-law and
fiance,
Pat (03:06):
if I'm over there, if I'm over there trying to sound cool
and international.
That's not gonna work.
Rich (03:11):
Uh, no.
You just, you honestly, you, youwouldn't, you wouldn't.
I, I, I was going to, I dunnowhat you word to use to describe
you, like what you would soundlike.
Probably none would beparticularly suitable in this
forum, but yet, no, you woulddefinitely not sound cool.
You would sound probablystrange.
People would look at you.
You would probably, as you cameback from the toilet, once it
(03:33):
worked out what it was you wereasking for, you'd probably
notice the weight is whisperingto each other and pointing at
you.
Um, yeah, and the bill wouldarrive on your table as the last
bite into your mouth.
I think that they'd probably bequite glad for you to leave at
that point.
Yeah.
Classic British hospitality,
Pat (03:51):
right?
But the LUV is not the name fora bathroom.
Rich (03:55):
LLO.
Pat (03:56):
Oh, the l
Rich (03:57):
Oh, the lu not
Pat (03:58):
the lu.
Yeah, yeah,
Rich (03:59):
yeah, yeah.
No, no.
The lou like, I'm gonna justgonna go and use the Lu.
Yeah.
That would still be somethingthat was said.
Pat (04:05):
Yeah.
Rich (04:05):
I got
Pat (04:06):
Well, I see, I knew that wa I knew that wasn't you, uh,
doing the heist.
I, it was actually, you know,it's a Frenchman that did the
heist because it didn't happenuntil nine 30 in the morning.
Rich (04:18):
It is that, yeah, there's that because, you know,
Pat (04:21):
the French want that, that work, that, that life work
balance, that's, Hey, we'regonna pull a major, you know,
you know, priceless, millionsheist.
We just don't wanna start tooearly.
How about, let's go over thereabout nine 30.
Rich (04:34):
Nine 30?
Yeah.
After some coffee, you know, acroon, you know, a couple of,
like couple of cigarettes and apavement cafe, you know.
A lot
Pat (04:46):
of stress on herself.
I think if Ms.
Prince or Americans, we'd atleast try, we at least tried it,
you know, maybe six or sevenbefore everybody got in there.
But, um, still a pretty amazingthing.
So, um, well anyway, glad, goodto see you there.
So today what we want to talkabout, um, is our topic is God
is not mad at you and we gotthis as, uh, from.
(05:11):
Someone I mentioned in our lastepisode, this girl that I was
talking to that had, was westarted talking and she was
telling me.
How she was feeling bad aboutherself, that she felt like, you
know, God may, you know, shewasn't measuring up, wasn't
doing enough of this, felt like,you know, the things she had
done in her past, you know, Godwould be mad at her, this type
(05:31):
of thing.
And, uh, completely stinkingthinking because absolutely none
of us measure up.
To God's love.
Uh, it it starts.
As a matter of fact, Jesus' mostimportant commandments, pretty
much left us in a position wherewe can almost never fulfill.
(05:52):
You know, what he needed us todo?
If you remember when they askedhim, uh, teacher in, uh, Matthew
26 36.
39 teacher, what is the greatestcommandment in the law?
And Jesus replied, love the Lordyour God with all your heart and
all your soul, and with all yourmind.
This is the first and greatestcommandment.
And the second is like it.
Love your neighbor as you loveyourself.
(06:14):
Well, right there, he just laidout two things that I don't
think we can do.
We aspire to'em.
We aspire to love the Lord withall God, with all our hearts.
I don't know if we, you know,any of us achieve that, but
loving your neighbor isyourself.
I certainly don't do, I aspireto it.
Mm-hmm.
(06:34):
But I don't.
Mm-hmm.
So, so the point is, I, Istarted telling this girl, you
know, all of the things, youknow, my past, this type of, of
things pointing out to her.
Um, anyway, you had somethingthat you wanted, you wanted to
read for us, and then we'll gofrom there.
Rich (06:50):
I mean, I guess just to respond first, to give it a
little bit of context, likeYeah, I mean, it's something
I've heard again and again and,um, you know, I've sat with
guys, you know, in the course ofmy work and, and you know, I'm
friends and you know, peoplekind of trying to make their way
into recovery.
And um, you know, I've heard itword for word.
It's like I don't measure up.
I've broken, I've broken up nineoutta the 10 Commandments, you
(07:14):
know, and I, you know, I've satwith a couple of people who
broke all 10, you know, um, orat least willing to admit it.
Um, and it's so, well, how can Iqualify?
And that it's the.
It's a difficult thing to getacross.
It's like that's the wholepoint, you know?
That's the whole point.
You know, and it's like we callourselves two unlikely
Christians.
Right.
Actually, we're the most likelyChristians there are.
(07:35):
'cause we were like lost andbroken.
Right.
And that's who we came for.
Right.
So it, but it's a difficultthing for people to wrap their
head rounds, but their headsround and, and I think some of
that gets perpetuated in kind oflike modern Christian dialogue.
You know, it is like this slipback towards.
I call it like neo legalism, youknow, that you have to be, you
(07:57):
know, bright, positive,righteous in order to get, earn
his love, right.
Whereas actually the whole pointwas like, you can never be those
things like consistently.
Right?
And he comes, you know, he cameto love people like, you know,
in their like imperfections andtheir brokenness and stuff like
that.
It's like, you know, he says,um.
(08:19):
You know, you don't call adoctor for the, well, you know
the, you know, the doctor comesfor the sick.
Right.
So anyway, there's a book, I'vementioned it in earlier
episodes.
It was a hugely influential partof me really not coming to
Christ.
'cause I was already aChristian.
I already believed I'd alreadybeen baptized, but.
Stepping into a personalrelationship with Jesus and
(08:42):
realizing how much he loved you.
This book, which is a bookcalled The Rag Mucking Gospel by
a guy called Brendan Manning,uh, who died in 2013, who I
would highly recommend, um,people look at his, his stuff.
There's stuff on YouTube.
He's wrote a number of bookslike.
Anyway, fantastic.
Huge part of my journey.
And, um, the first chapter inthe book talks about this modern
(09:04):
church culture that is notuniversal, but can be observed,
where it's like you have to be Xand Y and z, you know, that's
what a good Christian is, right?
And, um, you know, he talksabout that and that the chapter
is called something is radicallywrong.
He's talking about that cultureand he talks about how the, the
message of grace and love hasgot, has got lost.
Right.
Um, in some quarters.
(09:25):
And then, and so this is anexcerpt from that that I'd like
to read.
And it says, I'll get quiteemotional reading this part,
right?
It says, here is revelation.
Bright is the evening star.
Jesus comes for sinners forthose as outcast, as tax
collectors, and for those caughtup in squa, choices of failed
dreams.
He comes for corporateexecutives, street people,
(09:46):
superstars, farmers, hookers,addicts, IRS agents, AIDS
victims, and even used carsalesman.
Jesus not only talks with thesepeople, but he dines with them.
Fully aware that his tablefellowship with sinners will
raise the eyebrows of religiousbureaucrats who hold up the
robes and insignia of theirauthority to justify their
condemnation of the truth andthe rejection of the Gospel of
(10:09):
grace.
This passage should be read,reread, and memorized.
Every Christian generation triesto d the blind and brightness of
its meaning because the gospelseems too good to be true.
We think that salvation belongsto the proper and the pious,
those who stand at a safedistance from the back alleys of
existence, clucking theirjudgments at those who have been
(10:29):
soiled by life.
And I mean, for me, it's allthere like, it's like.
It's like he came, you know, my,you know, I, I, I truly believe
that if Jesus came today, right,like if he walked among us
today, where would he go andsit, you know, like, you know,
we don't have.
Things the same way as they werethen.
(10:50):
Right?
So, you know, back then he, youknow, he, he stopped with like
lepers and the la and women thathad bled for years and, you
know, these people that wereoutcast, right?
Where would he be today, pat?
I really believe he'd sit in,he'd sit in the crack houses.
Do you know what I mean?
He'd, he'd walk down the streetswhere women sell themselves for
sex to pay for their next hit.
You know, he'd, you know, hewould sit with the people that
(11:13):
no one else wants to sit with,you know?
I really believe that.
So that's something I'm prettypassionate about.
That's why when you asked me ifI wanted to do this topic, I was
like, yes.
Hard.
Yes.
Pat (11:24):
That's fascinating.
That's Brendan Brennan Manning.
Rich (11:27):
Brennan Manning.
B-E-B-R-E-N-N-A-N, and thenManning, M-A-N-N-I-N-G.
Pat (11:36):
Well, bobble pretty, pretty much clearly.
It illustrates what, what youjust said because that's who he,
that's who he did hang out with.
That's who he did come from.
Uh, like you said that the docdoctors don't go after the well.
And as I, I told this girl andthis girl had not had a lot of
transgressions in her life.
Matter of fact, she had a lot oftrauma also.
(11:57):
And, uh, so she had reason forsome of her rebellion.
And I just started listening,uh, listening to her.
I was like, you know, she was 22years old.
I said, you know, by the time Iwas 22, by the time I was 18, I
had, uh.
Burglary, shoplifting, DUIs,stolen cars, selling drugs,
(12:21):
public, drunk, all of thesethings.
And I pointed out to her, Isaid, and not just, but those
weren't the, those weren't thebad things.
I was fortunate by God's gracenot to.
Personally hurt anybody.
When I did, when I was doing allthose things, but I said where
my own personal regret is allthe people that I hurt along the
way by the person I was.
I mean, I actually went out and,and used people, not
(12:44):
intentionally, you know what Imean?
When you're going through the,the, the chaos of your life and
you're doing the drugs and youare at the blow end of the totem
pole and you're just trying to,to find some, um.
A bit of a way out of yourdisparity.
You use a lot of people and thenyou hurt a lot of people.
And I was explaining to her, Iwas like, I have, she was like,
well, I have regrets.
(13:04):
I'm like, well, I have regrets.
I was like, I stop and think youdon't go out and sin and do
these things and not.
Regret what you did.
But what you do is you escapethe punishment by following
Jesus because he went and paidthat price.
God sent his son to pay thatprice.
So that's all that, you don'thave to pay that anymore.
Yeah, you're gonna stop back andthink if you hurt people or you
(13:25):
did some things like that alongthe way.
But, uh, the fact is God lovesyou as his child.
And he illustrates that allthroughout the Bible.
And she was like, well,sometimes I think I don't, I
don't put enough.
Faith or, you know, there arethings God has done in my life
and then I don't trust him.
(13:47):
And I kind of explained to her,I said, well, yeah, well, I've
always, in my book, Icharacterize myself as like
Elijah.
Remember Elijah, God did allthese incredible miracles.
For Elijah, all of theseunbelievable.
He brought down rain.
He, he fed him with birds andravens and all of these things.
And right after he's done allthese things, the second
(14:09):
something starts going bad forElijah, he's sitting under a
tree and crying out to God like,oh God, you know, you've, you've
left me, or, you know, you'veleft me here alone.
And that's kind of, um, that'skind of how I, uh.
Looked at myself there, but Ionce, I just tried to explain to
her that this is, I, I've donefar more things in my life than
(14:30):
I've ever done, and God hasgiven me more joy, more peace,
more happiness than I've everdeserved.
So it's not that you're going toearn it, you, Jesus, earned it
for you.
Put your faith in it, put yourfaith in him.
You were about to, to have athought there.
Rich (14:45):
Yeah.
It's um.
It's all through the Bible,isn't it?
Like people like the apart, likethe disciples rolled around with
Jesus.
They watched him performmiracles.
They watched him walk on water.
They watched him feed 5,000.
They watched him feed 4,000.
You know, they watched him do,you know, heal, you know, bring
the dead back to life.
Yeah.
(15:05):
They watched him do all of thosethings, right.
And still they weren't sure, youknow?
Right.
Like, right.
Like he, you know, by the end oflike the gospels, he's saying to
them like, don't you get it yet?
Like, do you, you know, you thatdull, like, are you so dull?
That's, that goes through myhead sometimes when I'm in my
own doubt and my own lack offaith and my own.
Like, you know, like, I know heis taking care of me in this
(15:28):
way, this way, and that way, butlike, I'm not gonna, you know,
what about like, maybe I, youknow, what about this?
Maybe?
What about that?
You know, like, what if thishappens or I don't get enough
work, or, you know, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Right.
You know, so on my own doubt,like sometimes that runs through
my head sometimes, are you sodull?
You know, don't you get it yet?
You know, and actually you goright the way back to like, you
(15:50):
know, the beginning of the OldTestament, right?
Like the first books of the OldTestament.
Yeah.
You've got like.
You know, people that turn theirback on, on God.
Right.
It's like Moses comes down themountainside.
Yeah.
And he says like, look, lookguys, this is what we need to
do.
Yeah.
Right.
So like, don't make any idolsand, you know, worship God.
Like he's really, you know,that's sort of like a bit of a,
(16:10):
that's a hard line for him.
Yeah.
Just worship.
Right.
The rest of it we can work on,but just won't give him.
And then he got wandered off andthey're like, what?
What are we gonna do guys?
Oh no, let's make some idols.
You know, like it's like, youknow, constantly.
And yet there's the, you know,he's still there.
You know, he's still kind oflooks after and he's still there
(16:31):
and he's still provides for, youknow, a bit grumpy sometimes in
the Old Testament, but like he'sstill there, you know, it's like
part, you know, and that's kindof why.
That's part of our humanness,you know, is that, you know,
like to doubt, you know, to, tobe angry with, to turn our back
on, you know?
But he's still there.
He still loves us anyway.
(16:52):
Right?
We're still his children, right?
I think about it a bit likethis, pat sometimes is right.
It's like.
So I've been in a number ofromantic relationships in my
life.
Right.
And, um, as you know, that'ssometimes been a, they're so
troublesome area of my life.
Right.
But it's, I imagine being inrelationship with someone that,
like, you could get angry withthem, you know, you could like
(17:14):
turn your back on them, not talkto them for days or weeks or
months.
Yeah.
Just, you know, you could ignorethem when they're trying to talk
to you.
Yeah.
You might even, sometimes.
Not even believe they're real,you know?
And still they love you.
Do you know what I mean?
They love you just as much, andin fact, you, when you can't,
(17:37):
you can cheat on them.
Yeah, you can cheat, right?
Go away, you know, like, youknow, whatever, like worship,
false side rules, like the car,the watch, the money.
Yeah.
So you can cheat in thisrelationship, you can cheat on
the person and then you comeback and they actually love you
more.
Yeah.
Like the prodigal sum returns,right?
(17:57):
And it's like that's therelationship that's on offer
with Jesus.
Right?
That's the depths of his lovefor you.
Like, and you know, the factthat like you've done bad things
is what qualifies you for thatlove.
You know what I mean?
And it's not one of us withoutsin.
Right.
You know?
There is not one of us withoutsin.
(18:17):
Yeah.
Like.
Let he use without sin cast thefirst stone.
You know?
And I remember when I came in,like, I, I thought into faith.
Like I thought that was all.
Do you mean there's not one ofus without sin?
Like I've been trying to buildup my, like self-esteem and
understand that I'm actually nota bad person for all these
years.
And now you're telling meactually like I'm a, I'm a
sinner.
Right?
But like, actually there's realfreedom in realizing that no
(18:39):
one's without sin, you know?
But no one is without sin.
And actually if you go back tothe, you know, the origins of
the word sin, actually what itmeans is just stuff that.
Disconnects you from God andfrom God's purpose for your
life.
But that's it, you know?
Anyway, it's talking a lot.
Do you know what I mean?
But look, as I say, this issomething I'm like hugely, you
know, it lights me up thistopic, you know?
(19:00):
Yeah.
I see it as such a stumblingblock for people, you know?
Well, it,
Pat (19:04):
it does me because I run into people all of the time, and
that's how they feel.
They, they internalize.
I don't know if it's Satan.
I don't know if it's just usbeing human.
Mm-hmm.
A human.
Satan, as we talked about inspiritual warfare, constantly
telling you, you don't measureup, you're not good enough.
Uh, but Jesus is standing nextto God and he's our great
(19:24):
represent.
You know, he's up there speakingon our behalf.
And yeah, also because I wasreading, you know, if you think
about it, some of the greatestrock stars in the Bible.
I mean, uh, think about Davidfor example.
David had everything.
David had the kingdom.
David had everything going inhis life, had all the incredible
(19:45):
blessings of God.
And what did David do?
David literally went out andcommitted adultery with one of
his soldiers.
Actually, his soldier was inbattle.
He was supposed to be in thebattle'cause he was a king back
then.
Kings rode into battle, but hegot so high and mighty, he
stayed behind.
He committed adultery with thesoldier, then she gets pregnant
(20:06):
and does he come out and does heconfess and does he admit what
he did?
No, he has the guy killed soadultery and he didn't commit
that 10th.
Uh.
Commandment that, that youmentioned.
And I, I think I've hit nine outof 10 myself.
Uh, if, if that, if that's oneyou're talking about.
But David did that and God stillcalled him a man, after his own
(20:29):
heart and still loved him.
And he still one of the greatestpeople in the Bible that God
held up.
And you take, Paul, for example,I mean, before Paul became a
Christian, what was Paul doing?
Rich (20:43):
What's that?
He was called Saul, wasn't hebefore And then he was killing
Christians and you know, likejust, yeah, he was like
relentless.
Really?
He was like, like this, likesuper pharisee, basically, I
believe.
And he,
Pat (20:55):
yes.
Rich (20:56):
Like yeah, like really like fervent and um, yeah.
And was responsible for thepersecution and death of many
Christians.
Pat (21:04):
He was literally one of the worst.
He was one of the people thatyou would've thought, God, you
know, that they would've neverforgiven him for that.
But they turned around and usedhim there.
There are four books in theBible written by Paul, a guy
that killed Christians.
And we got people going out andgoing through life thinking, I
don't measure up.
God's mad at me for my past.
Or, I don't do enough of this,or I don't do enough of that.
(21:25):
And the greatest rock stars inthe Bible were some of the
biggest, dirt bags at one pointin time.
Mm.
And it's, um, I just just wannaget through people's heads that
God loves them, he's theirchildren, and he will always
love you.
And all those thoughts that arecoming into your mind, um,
(21:47):
they're just stinking thinking.
They're, yeah.
It's, it's not real.
You're children of God.
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
'cause I have, uh, just a fewBible verses I that I wanted to
read on.
Uh.
Rich (21:58):
Well, just to talk about Paul A.
Little bit really.
So actually like, um, justdrawing on my little kind of
minuscule bit of theologicaltraining, so 13 or 14 books of
the New Testament traditionallyattributed to the Apostle Paul.
Um, you know, what's called thePauline Letters.
Um, theological scholarsuniversally agree on seven of
them being written by him.
(22:18):
Yeah, the others are thoughtshave been perhaps written on his
behalf.
Um, but yeah, seven of themuniversally agreed to be, have
been written by him.
So like, this is the guy, likethe most prolific guy, most
responsible.
Taking the, you know, andliterally know that his travels
like, were like a huge part ofthat.
So he got it to to Rome.
Right.
As I understand the history, youknow, he got it to Roman and the
(22:40):
Romans where, because of theempire was hugely responsible
for the spread of Christianityaround the world.
Right?
'cause they had this empire sothat the information was able to
travel from Rome around theworld.
And also the Romans were.
They believed in gods thatwalked among us because they
deified their, their emperors.
Right.
They're great emperors.
So actually to them they werelike able to wrap their head
(23:00):
around the idea that actuallygot like, at least it from their
perspective, a God could becomeman and more among us.
Right.
So like Paul's like, you know,he literally went from like
persecuting, like the verypeople, like in modern terms
that would be like me going tomy local church.
Right.
Like murdering people.
(23:21):
Yeah.
Then becoming like the mostprolific person that then
carried the Bible to the rest ofthe non, like to the
non-Christian world as it isnow.
Right.
In this hugely affected way.
Like that's the sort of like,that's the bar.
You know what I mean?
Like that's what we are dealingwith.
Yeah.
Like it's that, you know, it'sjust so, and he talk and Manning
(23:45):
talks about it, right?
So he talks about, and this issuch a great book, but just to
like, um.
Just to pull like a few wordsout of that, that bit that I
read, again, just to sort oflike underline them if you like,
it's like every Christiangeneration tries to dim the
blinding brightness of itsmeaning because the gospel seems
too good to be true.
(24:06):
And there's a bit, there's thisfabulous video on, um, YouTube
where they, they sort of takebits of.
Manning's, um, speech that hegave and they said it this
animation and it's amazing andit's, there's, there's this bit
where he, he's talking as Jesus,like as if this was stuff that
Jesus would say.
And he says, don't for onesecond mistake.
(24:26):
You are paled, conditionalwavering, Fairweather only love
for each other and the love thatI have for you.
Because it's almost like wecan't understand, like we don't
get it.
You know?
Our relationships that we havewith each other are, will always
be, to some extenttransactional.
Right?
Like there are things that I canand can't do in my relationship,
(24:48):
right?
And rightly so, right?
There are lines that if I crossthem the relationship or.
You know, be over.
I mean, obviously just about toget married in a Christian
sense, so there's a covenantthat's made and so on and so
forth.
But like, it would at least bevery, very badly damaged and
impaired, right?
Like if I did certain things,you know, it's transactional.
And our friendships, it's like,you know, if you know there's
(25:09):
certain conditions that aren'tmet in a friendship sooner or
later that friendship's justgonna fall to pieces, right?
So it's like we have this, youknow, our love that we have for
each other.
As much as we might not, not,might not want to think it is
conditional, right?
Yes.
His love's not like it'sunconditional, right?
Like once you've been saved andrepented, then things get
(25:30):
slightly more complicated,right?
But you'll still be loved,right?
You'll still be loved, right?
And it, but it's like we.
It's just such a hard concept tounderstand, like it's a hard
concept to fully grasp asChristians, I think.
Yeah.
That's like, it's a hard conceptto fully grasp, which is why
that message gets a little bitlost in some quarters.
(25:51):
Right.
But like, yeah, to anon-believer, it's just like,
look, like you might not be ableto understand this.
But like you, just, you, you areloved.
It doesn't matter what you'vedone, like it does not matter
what you've done.
Right?
So me and my fiance are doing analpha course at the minute,
which you have in the States aswell.
It's that introduction toChristianity.
(26:13):
I never did one.
And I talked to friends aboutdoing it, and I just, and I've
moved to a new area, so Ithought it would good.
What's it called?
The Alpha course?
Um, A-L-P-H-A.
They use it in the States,obviously not, not necessarily
super widespread.
Is it a merge thing or just No,it's an introduction to
Christianity.
Right.
Um, so I'm doing it because.
(26:36):
I'm new in the area.
I never did one.
I talk to people about doing it,but I've never done one.
So it's a little bit like beinga driving instructor that
doesn't know how to drive.
So I've gone to do it, butthere's this bit, the most
powerful, one of the mostpowerful testimonies I've ever
seen is a guy who lives in thenorth of England, you know, now
has his own church.
(26:57):
He's a pastor, you know, hasbrought loads of people to
Jesus, right?
And he was like, he was aprisoner for a long time.
He was that dangerous with him.
He went in for attempted murder.
He was that dangerous withinprison that he ended up, there's
a certain category of prisoner,they're in a cell on their own,
like anyone that deals with themwears full body armor because
(27:19):
they're that dangerous.
They'll attack the wardens andstuff like that.
And he got saved.
Yeah, like he got saved.
This is the guy that was, wasthat dangerous prisoner guy.
Yeah, yeah.
He got saved, you know, anyway,so it's like, look, it's on
offer for everyone.
Do you know what I mean?
Like just, you know, try and,it's just important to try and
(27:40):
open your mind and wrap yourhead around that possibility
that no matter how bad that,that you think the things you've
done, or he's here for you, man,that's here for you.
Pat (27:52):
That's an excellent point.
That is an excellent pointbecause it's unconditional love.
I think they're called agapelove and our, as human beings,
we can't process that.
So we always think that God'sthinking like we are so in a
relationship, we've always gottabe trying to, you know, do what
the other person wants, or tomeasure up.
God is not that way.
(28:14):
And I think that's, uh, I thinkthat's very hard for us to, you
know, in the Bible it says, Godsays, I don't, I know what the
scripture is, but I, you don'tthink I'm paraphrase, but you
don't think like me and I don'tthink like you.
So it's hard for us tounderstand how a, being a
creator of the universe.
Our Heavenly Father loves us theway he does, and you just want
(28:37):
to encourage people to, to knowthat God loves you, he's there
for you.
You put your trust in him.
Yeah, there's gonna be things,you can't just go out and do
whatever you want to do.
You're going to haverepercussions for the, for bad
things and for sin and for whatyou do in your life.
But God's love never leaves you.
And there's a few scripturesthat, uh, that di well, there's
(28:58):
a lot of scripture.
The Bible's full of it, but Ijust pulled a few of them if I
can.
Uh.
Just to read'em, but it says,but God demonstrate, uh, Romans
five eight.
But God demonstrates his ownlove for us in this.
While we were still sinners,Christ died for us.
It means he sent his.
Son, but people still reallycan't get around that.
(29:19):
They're like, well, it's Jesus.
No.
Jesus became a man and went downand went through, uh,
unbelievable torture and diedfor us so we can have the peace
and we can have the joy in theeverlasting life that's love for
somebody to send their onlybegotten son.
In John three, one it says, howgreat is the love?
The father has lavished on us.
(29:40):
That we should be calledchildren of God.
And it's an exclamation point.
And that is what we are with anexclamation point.
I mean, this is, God puteverything in the Bible to tell
us that he loves us that much.
And in Jeremiah 31, 3, I haveloved you with an everlasting
love.
(30:01):
I have drawn you.
With loving kindness and thenone of my favorites, uh,
Zephaniah three 17.
The Lord your God is with you.
He is mighty to save.
He will take great delight inyou.
He will quiet you with his loveand he will rejoice over you.
(30:22):
With singing, that means heliterally is rejoicing over you.
And that's hard for a human inour minds and our thought pro
process to get around.
And everyone should know thatyou literally have a father.
I used to always.
As I was coming along and Iwould stop and think and I, I
(30:42):
would picture,'cause none of usknow what God looks like, but I
would picture something, youknow him with a stern look
towards me.
Mm-hmm.
The closer I've come, the moreI've come to understand him and
the more I, I've, I don't forgetall of the things that he's done
for me in my life.
Like that 22-year-old girl, Iwent back and I started running
through.
I was like, well, you had atraumatic, how did you get outta
(31:04):
that?
And I started and she startedbringing, I'm like, yeah.
How did that happen?
Look what happened there.
God's been with you and he'sbeen watching you.
You're focusing on the bad.
You're not looking at all thetimes.
Look at you sitting here rightnow, that big smile on your face
and you, and you're thinking allthese thoughts and you're
getting your life together.
That's where God was bringingyou along and he's been there
(31:26):
and he's smiling at you.
And I, I started getting to thepoint a few years ago when I
would think, and when I wouldpray, I would feel God smiling
down at me not approving of allof my activity, but.
I love you, pat.
Just like he loved that girland, and you and everyone else
that's listening to us, andeveryone should just put that in
(31:49):
their heart and carry it withthem throughout their daily
lives.
You have any, uh, final thoughtsthere?
Rich (31:56):
Just, I guess I'll tell you what I was pondering on was
it's one thing to like think.
About these ideas.
It's another to experience it,you know, to really feel that
love.
And for me it took a while toget to that, you know, so it
(32:18):
was, you know, probably betweencoming in to like, you know,
starting to attend search andthe recovery ministry and then
believing and then beingbaptized and then feeling.
Deeply feeling that sense offorgiveness and then if, and
(32:38):
then kind of actually gettingwalloped and hit with the love.
Right.
Took, let's have a little thinkabout this part took about, it
was, it happened about 18 monthsin to the journey.
You know what I mean?
About 18 months in.
So like for me, I guess I'msaying that it's like if you
come to church for the firsttime and you don't feel loved
(32:59):
for it, like it's okay, youknow.
Like it's just open your mind tothat possibility.
And for me it was like I justhad to keep chipping.
I felt like I had so muchdarkness, you know, so much
darkness on me.
This is how I look at it now.
You know, I was so mired in theworld and drenched in seen and
soaked in shame and shackled.
(33:20):
You know, for me that stuff hadto be kind of chipped off bit by
bit, by bit, by bit by bit.
And it was about, I just keptturning up and I kept down to
church.
I kept talking to otherbelievers.
I kept reading my Bible evenwhen it didn't make any sense to
me.
I kept praying even when it feltabsolutely pointless.
Right?
And then it just, it kind ofhappened.
So now I get to the point, it'slike, I don't believe that God
(33:41):
loves me and I don't.
I think that God loves me andit's, you know, it's not, I
don't have faith that God lovesme.
It's like I know that God lovesme.
Like I felt it, like I felt it,you know, with such intensity.
And I felt it with lessintensity many times since, do
you know what I mean?
But it's like, I know that heloves me, but it took time to
get there.
So it's like, look, just.
(34:03):
Just like keep open your mind tothe possibility.
Keep turning up.
And, um, if you are as broken,half as broke, half as broken as
I was, you'll keep turning up.
Yeah.
And then, and then it, and itjust kind of happened for me.
So yeah.
I just, I guess wanted to saythat on, it's like, look, if,
if, if it doesn't make any senseto you and you got a church
(34:23):
first time a handful of timesand it's still, you don't kind
of feel that.
Like, that's okay.
You know, some people go, theyget the supernatural experience
of the order, you know, day oneand, and that's great, but that
wasn't my experience and there'snothing wrong with that.
Yeah, that's, that's my kind ofthought, closing thought,
Patrick.
Pat (34:43):
Closing thought.
Uh, and as I've told you before,mine was a lot longer than 18
months.
I was actually impressed withyou because you, you know, I,
it's, I think it's in yourpersonality.
You were like, I'm doing thisand I'm not procrastinating, and
you kept pounding.
I am one that just takes a longtime and mine took years.
Years, even when I decided I,I've made a decision to follow
(35:05):
God and I, I do think part of itwas, you know, I'm, I'm
believing in, I'm gonna believein God.
Uh, but I really didn't know inmy part, really, it was kind of
probably transactional on mypart.
I'm gonna believe in God'causeI'm tired of these bad things
that are happening to me.
But the bad things that werehappening to me was'cause I was
making dumb decisions.
I started making good decisions,good things were happening.
(35:27):
God was with me, but I still hadnot turned it all over.
God, I, you know, I had not beensaved.
I had, you know, I'd made adecision, but my heart had not
changed until I got to thatpoint.
You know, as we talked aboutwhen I was in the church and I
just gave it all up, that's whenthe peace, and that's when the
joy all came into me.
(35:49):
But I took a lot longer than 18months.
But it doesn't surprise me.
In your case, you know, youdecided you were gonna get a
college degree at 34.
You just.
You just went and got one rich.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And became the renowned, um,psychotherapist and addiction
specialist that you are now.
(36:11):
Uh, those are great words, rich,and I hope people are listening
to us just being encouraged bythat.
God loves you, he delights inyou, and it's hard for our human
minds to think about that.
And the reason why Richard and Ido this is just to encourage
people.
Because we have been the low ofthe lo.
Like I said, both you're nineand one on the commandments.
I'm not, I'm nine and one onthem too.
(36:34):
And I'm talking to people thatthink, I just don't know that,
uh, you know, God could everlove me because I, you know, it
just.
You know, they, they, theyhaven't come close to living
some of the lives and doing someof the damage and destruction
that you and I did along theway.
And that's why we have a passionjust to try to lift people up
and help them find the joy andthe encouragement that, that we
(36:54):
have and the trust.
So.
Uh, great words there, rich.
Brilliant as you.
You too,
Rich (36:59):
Patrick.
You too.
I see the
Pat (37:01):
big brain in the little thing coming off the back of
your head.
It's an r the big brain on rich.
So, and brain on rich.
Not just that.
Very, very thoughtful too.
You never really thought you'dbe, uh, referred to as that.
Richard Tull is a verythoughtful man.
Rich (37:19):
No, that wasn't on the cards, uh, a couple of decades
ago for sure, pap.
But um, yeah, thank, but thankyou, uh, for your kind words and
you know, you also someone who'sachieved a lot, even though you
play your cards a little bitcloser to your chest than I do.
So there I do.
Pat (37:37):
That I do.
All right man.
It was good talking to you andthanks for everybody joining us
and may God bless you all outthere and we will see you next
time.
Take care, rich.
Oh bless man.
See you later.
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