July 24, 2025 • 39 mins
Pat and Richard talk about how their faith in Jesus has become an integral part of their lives' and their hope to be able to help people have the same experience.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat (00:20):
And welcome everybody to the two Unlikely Christians
podcast.
I'm comedian, author Pat McCool,in the Piney Woods of South
Mississippi, sitting on thebanks of the lake, and to my
good buddy all the way acrossthe pond in the academic capital
of the world.
Esteemed psychotherapist andaddiction specialist Richard
(00:44):
Turrell.
up rich?
Rich (00:47):
Not too much, man.
End of a long week.
Um, I'm actually in Londontoday, so less the, um, academic
kind of hub, mortar, economic,but yeah, no, I'm in the big
city today.
But all his, all his well mateand mixed exactly man.
He had a feud.
Systems that still alive andkicking.
(01:09):
I've got some, there's a queueof peasants down the road
actually bringing me their,their offerings.
Pat (01:15):
You said you had the servants last time things up to
the
Rich (01:18):
Yeah.
Pat (01:19):
to make sure there wasn't any revolt going on there.
Rich (01:22):
Nah, man.
They're all, they're all undermanners, as we say, over here.
They're all under manners.
Pat (01:28):
That's good because, you know, you know, I love your
Brits, but you, you guys hadsome na you know, if they ever
turned on you, you have somenasty ways of disposing people.
You know, like,
Rich (01:38):
man.
Yeah, yeah.
Pat (01:39):
it's like
Rich (01:40):
Yeah.
Pat (01:40):
in America, we, we had a little bar bearish history
where, you know, we would frypeople in electric chair, but if
we hung people, we just hungthem.
You guys were kind of like, Hey,I go out on idea.
Let's hang the bloke, but let'sdon't kill him.
Just before he is dead, let'sdrop him, remove all his limbs
(02:01):
and hang him again.
So,
Rich (02:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, um.
So when you, you double frysomething, you know, you cook it
and then you cook it again.
Get some extra flavor into it,
Pat (02:13):
put some
Rich (02:14):
you know,
Pat (02:14):
flavor.
You just wanna discourage the,discourage the next guy from
trying to overthrow, uh,Richard.
Richard in the castle.
Rich (02:22):
yeah, well, we, uh, we let, we let the world in
mistreating bed I think for awhile there.
So,
Pat (02:29):
Oh,
Rich (02:29):
yeah.
But.
Pat (02:30):
no, but, and we, we love you for it, especially in
America.
We've got, uh, we got July 4thcoming up.
I mean, was it for you guys?
We wouldn't have, we wouldn'thave Independence Day and a
three day Holli holiday.
We're deeply appreciative of it,you know, so, uh, so,
Rich (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That really, that really comesacross
Pat (02:51):
oh man.
Well, look, I, but it is good tosee you.
Because speaking
Rich (02:55):
you too, man.
Pat (02:55):
you know, at the ending of our last episode, things got a
little awkward and we, justwanna share with the people
that,
Rich (03:02):
I.
Pat (03:02):
you know, at the beginning of our, episodes.
mentioned where I'm from andwhere that I'm sitting down in
Mississippi and that you're overin England.
And, we do that to let peopleknow that, to illustrate the
that kind of make us the twounlikely Christians.
But with that said, that meanswe can't just pick the phone up
(03:23):
and call each other and, uh,have a conversation.
Well, we could.
We don't, I don't wanna spend$30for a 10 minute conversation,
and Richard doesn't wanna spend20 pounds talking to me for 10
minutes, but Richard brought meinto the 21st century by
introducing me to WhatsApp.
(03:45):
So now at two o'clock in themorning, I could just send a
text to Rich, or actually, hesends it to me because he's six
hours ahead.
So way we do this is.
I will send a WhatsApp messageto Rich saying I've sent the
leak.
Join the con, join theconversation at your leisure,
(04:05):
he'll jump on and then we'llstart the conversation.
Or, or actually he will send mea message back saying, I'm
coming.
And 15 minutes later he'll showback up.
'cause he wants me to feel likeI'm talking to my wife.
So, so we actually, Richard's a,Richard's a very busy man.
So the last time we did that, Isent Richard the, the message,
(04:31):
sent the link.
said, Jeff, I'm coming.
We start the episode.
And I set the phone down.
During the episode, I see amessage flash across the top
from my wife, and the messagesays, I'm in Polk.
The reason she sent that wasbecause in my family, we tell
(04:52):
each other where we're going,what we're doing, if we're
taking a trip, if we're going.
To the grocery store.
It's text me when you get there.
I love you.
I love you.
Text me when you're coming back.
Be careful.
This time she was on a two, uh,going on a two or three day trip
(05:13):
and she had just left.
And so when the episode ended.
I up the phone.
She had just told me where shewas and I sent her a message
saying, just finish the, justfinish talking to Rich.
The dogs are indignant'cause Iwouldn't let'em in the office.
fun.
Be careful.
I love you dearly and threw inabout five exclamation points
(05:39):
and I even think I threw a heartemoji or two in there.
'cause I'm a very sensitive guy.
doesn't, I'm still, you know, alittle bit of a Renaissance man
and I.
Went on one my life and washappy with myself.
A few minutes later I walked bythe counter and I pick up the
phone the WhatsApp app is open Irealized I had just sent that
(06:03):
message to Richard.
So I had
Rich (06:08):
Well the thing was, the thing was, pat, you, you didn't
say with just, you'd justfinished talking to me.
'cause that would've given itaway that you were.
Talking to someone else.
So actually what it came acrosswas that you, you told that you,
it was an update on how the dogswere.
And then have fun and becareful.
I love you immensely, which was,you know, it was different.
(06:31):
I know you Americans are, youknow, you're very expressive,
you know, you don't have tostiff up a lip like we have.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I had totake a beat and really think
about, you know, where, whereour relationship was at.
Um.
I generally like to be boughtdinner before we start to get
into that kind of thing, youknow?
So yeah, it was a moment.
(06:52):
Pat was a moment.
Pat (06:54):
When I saw it, I just, I, I popped into a sweat.
I was just, I was just thinkingof No.
no.
Richard thinks I'm trying totake the relationship to another
level.
I mean, you know, I love you,man, but I love you in a, I love
you man, kinda way.
Not, uh, I love you.
Text me when you land inAmsterdam, so I know my booboo
(07:19):
it, made it safely.
Rich (07:21):
Yeah.
I'm, I love you, man.
That's, that.
I'm comfortable there, pat,that's, that's more, that's
enough.
That's more that, you know what?
That's, that's more than enough.
Pat (07:29):
I did get your response.
I realized I did before I washammering
Rich (07:34):
Yeah.
Pat (07:34):
my, oh my gosh.
This is to my wife.
But I did notice your, uh, I,your, your reply was, I know you
guys are a little moredemonstrative with your
emotions, but you haven't evenbought me dinner yet.
So,
Rich (07:46):
Yeah,
Pat (07:47):
I dried the
Rich (07:48):
then that, that, it's probably a good point to draw
your attention to this bit offunctionality where it says
Block Pat McCall and thenreport, report Pat Pat McCall.
So it's always good to know thatthat's there, pat.
Yeah.
Pat (08:04):
Okay.
Well, alright, so now that wegot, we got all that settled.
Alright, let's get back to our,our favorite topic and, and, and
that is Jesus.
Um, the end of our last episode,uh, for those of you that are
just joining us who havelistened, Our podcast is really
a continuation of a conversationthat started about a year and a
half to two years ago.
(08:25):
Uh, we met and, realized we hada deep, passion for, for helping
other people.
And the best way to help peopleis share the gospel of Jesus.
And then we just started havinga conversation and we thought in
our first episode that we wouldjust cover our story so everyone
would know our background.
And here we are in.
Fourth episode and we haven'tquite gotten it all out yet.
(08:48):
Um, to go back to the end of ourlast episode, I had just
finished.
telling you about stepping outof this office After I'd stepped
out of this courtroom, found outI'd gotten probation at 18 years
old, uh, that I wasn't going toprison, that I thought I was
going to, I went to visit theperson that I.
(09:10):
I had had shot at me and Ithought he was shooting to scare
me, but told me that he wasactually pumping bullets from a
38 caliber weapon right at myback.
And they were almost like theywere going right through me.
I left this gentleman's officeand went and sat in my car at
(09:31):
which brought back all thememories of all the times that
God had been with me in my life.
And.
That's when I really startedrealizing that God had been with
me all along and, all of thedots that connect in our lives
that everybody has.
So from, that point forward,after I left that parking lot
(09:57):
that day, I went and got my acttogether., I went and took what
we call a CT, uh.
In America, which qual, youknow, to get into, to college.
I did enroll at the Universityof Southern Mississippi and
started getting, started gettingmy act together.
I still had a long journey withJesus, but to illustrate how all
of these, dots get connected,the following summer, uh,
(10:20):
answered an ad for a, uh.
Job that was, that paid a goodbit of money for my age and back
at that time.
And I told myself if that was,was, it's anything but
insurance, I'm gonna take thisjob.
'cause I know that I could, youknow, I could do well at sales.
(10:40):
I went to the job and interviewand it was insurance.
So of course I took the job and,uh, turned out I was really good
at it.
After a few years, I quicklybecame a top salesman with this
company.
After a few years, I got hiredaway by one of the top companies
in the country, a Fortune 500company, and that's where I met
(11:02):
my wife, which was one of thebest things that ever happened
to me in my life because mywife's father was a Church of
God pastor.
My wife was a, Quite the womanof God herself.
And I had an awful lot ofpolishing up to do and she
helped me polish up.
(11:23):
And within a couple of years I'dactually gotten promoted to
becoming one of the top, uh, oneof the youngest regional
directors in the company'shistory at the age I was at.
And we did this for 15, 20years, just like you, Richard,
the cars and the houses and thevacations.
(11:44):
But something was missing whereyou were having a, the void and
the habits were all coming back.
I, in my case, it was afterabout 15 or 20 years, I just
felt like God had something elsefor me to do, that he didn't
just bring me through everythinghe brought me through just to
make a lot of money and driveJaguars.
And, which by the way, to showyou how much we love the Brits,
(12:06):
we've had three jaguars.
I
Rich (12:09):
Oh, nice.
Pat (12:10):
I got one sitting out in the driveway covered by a tarp.
Rich (12:14):
I didn't know they made pickup trucks, but.
Pat (12:16):
No, it's a, well, it's a Jaguar.
And the great thing about thegreat thing about driving
Jaguars, Richard, because ittaught me why the British don't
make televisions you haven'tfigured out how to make'em leak
oil because.
Because, because that, thatthing's engine blew up at
137,000 miles.
(12:36):
But I should have changed theoil a little bit more on it.
But, the point was we, you know,we had a lot of success, but I
did have a, a kind of a void inlife and that's when I took, one
day I came home and told my wifethat I had quit.
The insurance business and Ithought she was gonna gather up,
uh, the jewelry and call herparents and get a good attorney.
(12:58):
just looked at me and said, Iknew you were going to, I think
God has something else for youto do.
I went and did a, spot at a bigclub.
And.
Birmingham, Alabama.
And when the show was over withthe, uh, the audience erupted,
the owner of the club called mein and said, I, I could do this
if I really wanted to.
And next thing you know, I'mperforming around the country
(13:22):
and performing in the Hollywoodimprov with guys like Jerry
Seinfeld and traded the RitzCarlton Inn for, for.
Pilot truck stops and uh, and,and I was off and running.
But that's what led me toeventually moving to New York
City and getting to the pointwhere I wrote my book.
You had mentioned my bookearlier, bonsai wasn't really
(13:45):
that big of a hill.
One man's walk towards God isthe subtitle, but one man's Walk
towards God is really what thebook was about.
Because after I wrote the book.
I got asked to speak in a churchand I, did, I wrote an act and
my, act was always clean, but, Imade sure it was clean to where
(14:06):
I could speak in a church.
And while I was in the middle ofdoing that, I did my comedy show
up for about 40 minutes, andthen I started sharing my
testimony, which they wanted meto do from the book.
And I literally.
Broke into tears while I'mstanding on stage talking.
(14:26):
the chills came over me and it,and it was one of the most
joyful experiences I'd ever had.
And that's when I realized, thisis what God wants me to do.
again, I had this moment whereGod had been in my life.
Every step of the way knowing Iwas going to get to this moment
in time that took decades anddecades and decades.
(14:50):
And it illustrates, God doesthis in everyone's life.
just like in your life, Richard,I was really, stunned when you
started telling your story.
You were how old when you, whenyou enrolled in university?
Rich (15:09):
Oh, 34.
34 years old.
Pat (15:12):
So,
Rich (15:13):
Yeah.
Pat (15:15):
you were still struggling quite a bit all through your
twenties.
Rich (15:19):
Oh yeah.
Big time.
Yeah.
So I, I, I walked through thedoors of a 12 step meeting when
I was 29.
I was 32 when I eventuallycleaned up, you know, I got
clean and stayed clean, so,yeah.
Yeah.
My twenties were like a, a carcrash, honestly, like.
Like they started badly and it,it got worse.
Um, and definitely by the time Iwas 29, I was, I mean, I was
(15:42):
lost, man.
Not completely lost, broke,broken alone, friendlies,
Pat (15:50):
See.
Rich (15:51):
suicidal.
Pat (15:52):
The point I'm trying to illustrate to, anyone that's
listening.
What happened to my turn startedat 18 to 19 years old.
That's when I ended up at you.
I either had to clean myself up,or I'm going to prison.
I started that.
You didn't start to, at 29 yearsold is when you started getting
(16:13):
your act together.
so there are people out therewith the family members I.
Children, people that they thinkthat, God has you know, it's too
late for them.
You know, this person would'vedone this at this age.
The fact that you started at 29years old is, is a pretty
fascinating story.
So you went on to school, butwhen did, when did you start
(16:37):
having your experience with,faith with Jesus?
I.
Rich (16:42):
Oh.
Much later, like, um, I must'vebeen clean.
For, yeah, like 40, 41 yearsold.
Pat (16:57):
At at 41 years old.
Rich (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So,'cause I was in 12, well I amstill, but like in 12 step
recovery.
So, you know, it is a spiritualprogram.
So one of the things we wereencouraged to do is, you know,
to kind seek out spirituality.
So I looked at a lot ofdifferent, um.
Avenues like Buddhism and, um,um, what else?
(17:24):
Like, I did a Native Americansweat lodge at one point.
Um, so I've, you know, I, youknow, pretty intense.
I mean, I don't wanna speak illof anyone else's belief system,
but it wasn't for me.
Um, it was being in a kind ofvery dark, very hot space with a
lot of other men shouting andbeating drums.
(17:45):
So it was a bit like.
Um, yeah, I mean, I've found thewhole thing quite traumatic, to
be honest with you, pat.
It certainly didn't make mefeel, didn't, I didn't get any
kind of sense of connection outof it, but, um, so, but yeah,
I've been looking for a whileand then, but the church, it's
really interesting.
I guess it'd be something for usto talk about, you know, like
later would be, certainly inEngland there's a, like,
(18:09):
Christianity is not cool.
You know, it's like, it's reallyseen as like, oh, it's, you
know, people.
Oh right.
You've, you are one of them areya, you know, like sort of
churchgoers and, you know, seenas kind of Yeah.
Just odd balls really.
So I, I kind of always had this,this resistance to, to the idea
of Jesus.
(18:29):
I believed in God, didn'tbelieve in Jesus, found the
whole thing kind of cringey andawkward.
And, um, and I, I still found itcringey and awkward when I went.
But I was, again, had reachedanother point of brokenness.
'cause even without the drugs,my addiction, you know, I've
manifested in, in so manydifferent things like work and
money and sex and food.
(18:50):
And I was just done, man.
Like, and then kind of hit thatkind of rock bottom place again,
just without the drugs.
And, um, and then I, yeah, so Iwalked through the doors of a
church basically looking foranswers and that, that, you
know, so that came much later.
Pat (19:07):
That's fascinating, but that's the point was you didn't
reach that point of peace.
Until you walked through thedoors of that church and started
a relationship.
Rich (19:21):
Yeah.
Like a hundred percent.
Like it's like a, you know, thatkind of piece that transcends
all understanding, you know,like just, yeah, that was, yeah.
I've never really felt that.
It felt like I.
Um, and it didn't happenstraight away.
It took a lot of hard work and alot of dedication and reading
the Bible every day and prayingevery day from when it didn't
(19:42):
make sense.
But, um, yeah, like just it.
Something, someone, Jesusreached in and touched parts of
me that nothing else had beenable to, to reach and heal like
without a shadow of a doubt.
And that's after like a decadeof psychotherapy, personal
psychotherapy, you know,1,000,012 step meetings, three
(20:03):
or four sort of trips throughthe 12 steps.
Yeah.
Pat (20:11):
As you know, he, he was with you every step of the way.
Anybody that doesn't know theearlier episodes that Richard
had, some, very dangerousmoments stabbed, bleeding out,
almost killed, we both camethrough some incredible, um,
moments that we, we brought onourselves.
God brought us through those.
(20:31):
He, was watching and with us allalong and he was, he was
watching and waiting.
But the thing that youillustrate is that at 41 years
old, so if you're in yourtwenties, if you are in your
thirties, um.
God is still waiting and He willwait for you and it still is a
(20:52):
journey.
You don't have a moment.
You know, as you mentioned to meafter reading my book, when we,
we, you know, we went, we didn'ttalk for a little while and we
touched back base after you hadhad read it.
I decided I was going to believein God.
There's a difference inbelieving in God and there's a
difference in just giving yourlife to Jesus, turning things
(21:13):
over to him, because when I metmy wife, it was, yeah, I, I
believe in God, but I still, Igot in the business world, you
know, I.
I, I wasn't past telling a fibto win a business deal or things
like that, and my wife wasalways standing over there.
Just, she's, she's thisincredible woman that would, uh,
what did you say?
(21:34):
Oh, did you tell him?
Well, that's not true, is it?
I was like, yeah, but I got togot the deal.
And she's like, yeah, well.
You really think Jesus wants andlittle things just kept moving
along with me.
I was making money, but I reallywasn't filled with the peace.
Everything felt like, um.
(21:56):
But I was moving, you know, Iwas believing in God.
I believed in JI had, when Iwent for that, that took that
first job in the insurancebusiness.
man was a, uh, I don't know if Itold you this or it was in the
book.
The man was a, Christian and heasked me if I'd believed in God
and he, and I said, I did.
He said, did you, um.
(22:18):
Have you ever accepted Jesus?
I, uh, no.
Boy, I really started sweatingthen, and, and he said, you want
to?
And I was just, you know, Imean, what was I gonna do?
So, so I, we prayed the, theLord's and officially.
Got saved or gave my life toChrist then, but I never really,
I, I really didn't give anythingup at that point in time.
(22:40):
I prayed that prayer, consideredmyself saved.
I'm a Christian, went on aboutmy business, but, and I was
still considering myself, butthere were still things I still
kind had that that piece was notthere.
It was still a life withanxiety.
It was about how much money am Igonna make?
How much can I accomplish here?
I still had a little rage.
I never, you know, I, I was alittle bit of a rageaholic.
(23:03):
I, you know, I, still had all ofthese things and then I, I went
on to become a, even when Ibecame a comedian, if you recall
in the book, you had mentionedthat moment where I had been
trying to work everything out onmy own and, I had that incident
where I had this show canceled.
Anyway, things had all of asudden that had gone incredibly
(23:25):
well.
But then they kind of startedgoing well for me and I end up
in that church and, and thepastor of the church gives the
invitation.
I don't know what they do inEngland, but uh.
He gives this invitation at theend of the church services,
anyone, you know, come to thealtar, I'm assuming, I think
you've said similar experiences.
Rich (23:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Pat (23:50):
and as a matter of fact, the video you sent me of your
last church service, Verysimilar to the church service
here.
'cause I was wondering, what'sit like in England?
What do you do?
I mean, I, I know, I don't, I, Iknow we joke about it, but I'm
like, is everybody wearingrobes?
You know?
Is is the, the, is is thepastor?
Rich (24:13):
We got some of that.
But you know, I, I'll go to, youknow, for me it's about kind of
modern church, modern worshipmusic and you know, so like I
get, that's where I find my, youknow, that's my home, you know.
But um, yeah, we have the autocall, you know, we have the auto
call and um, you know, Idefinitely get that kind of
experience.
I came in, I believed, you know,I believed quite quickly, you
(24:36):
know, and I got baptized on thatbasis.
I believed that Jesus was theson of God, that he died on the
cross three days later, and thenhe rose up to heaven to sit at
the right hand of a father.
And I knew that was true all ofa sudden, but I didn't, you
know, my life was still, I wasstill very lost is the truth.
You know, I was still very lost.
Um, and then I.
(24:56):
A bit like you, you know, likethe shows start got canceled and
things started going wrong.
And you know, for me, my lifeblew up.
Like my addictions, my non-drugrelated addictions all, you
know, it all blew up.
It all came out and you, youknow, it was an extremely
difficult time.
But I got a pat of pastorfriend, um, in New York called,
called Roman Ramos, and he talksabout, um.
(25:18):
Sooner or later, you know, likeJesus keeps knocking, you know,
in the end it's like, are youlistening yet?
Are you ready to listen yet?
You know, and that's, you know,when life tends to fall apart a
little bit and then we have nochoice, or I had no choice but
to, you know, something in thatbrokenness.
Like, I found, I found himthere, or he found me there, I
(25:39):
suppose, you know, but it was inthe, in the, in the ruins of a,
a worldly life that I, that hefound me.
Pat (25:47):
Well that's, the similar situation I had.
I was still trying to do things,my way.
I hadn't really completelyturned it over.
And, that day he gave thatinvitation.
And I don't, I You read it inthe book,'cause you mentioned,
you mentioned it to me where he.
The, pastor was fantastic.
Pastor, he's my pastor now, andhe said, I'm, he gave the,
(26:09):
invitation and nobody moved.
And, and I didn't, I was kindof, I, you know, I was like,
okay, I'm, everybody here's gotsomething to get off their
chest, already done it, youknow, let's move along to, you
know, the, the football gamestarting.
I'm ready to go home.
And he said, well, he said, keepsinging to the choir.
(26:29):
And he said.
I just feel like there'ssomebody in here that I'm
speaking to and I'm thinking, Iwish that person, you know, on
with it.
And so we could get on outtahere.
And it turned out it was me andthe moment that I threw my hands
up, and the moment that I didthat, that's where everything
(26:49):
really officially changed withme.
I had this feeling come over melike there was no drug.
and, and that's where the, I I,I think at that moment, that's
where the Holy Spirit.
I had made room for him, and Ithink that's what happened with
you.
You had made room you, you canbelieve in God, and I'm saying
this for people that are outthere, that believe in God just
(27:10):
like you, when I left that man'soffice.
Uh, you know, when I first gotin the insurance business, I, at
that point in my mind, believedyou just said.
Jesus was the son of God and hegave his life for us, but I
hadn't fully accepted that in myheart to go get the peace.
(27:31):
And the joy and, and, and thepath that he has for me.
And, uh, that's why that, that'san amazing story that you had
at, at 41 years old that thatfinally, that finally happens
for you.
And now that you have the peace,uh, it's just an amazing story.
And people just need to, tounderstand that God has been
(27:54):
with you all your life.
If you look back through all ofthe things that have happened.
He was there, he was watching,he was waiting.
He's bringing you along, but youhave to give in and you have to
accept him fully into youbecause when you start talking
about those other thingsmanifesting in your life, that
is the devil.
That's Satan shooting arrows atyou because the, the, the, the
(28:17):
higher value targets you are.
The more you're moving towardsGod and the more you're moving
towards Jesus, the more he'sgonna start attacking you.
And that's what he was doing toyou.
But what the beneficial thing isif, if you are on that path,
God's waiting for you and itpushed you into that moment
where you gave it all up.
And it's just like you said, themoment you had in South Africa
(28:38):
where you started reading, youliterally picked up the Bible
and started reading a Bibleverse and.
That's what made all the, and,and, and that at that point gave
you the peace and it it gave youthe healing that you needed to,
to, to move along.
Rich (28:55):
That was a big shit.
You know, there were threereally big like felt things that
happened and um, one was.
And there were, you know, lotsof things that happened in my
path.
People were put in my path, youknow, um, you know, a wonderful
chaplain when I was in, um, inthe treatment center in Arizona,
you know, a pastor that, thatwas a, a great friend of mine
(29:17):
there, and I, I, I just, all ofa sudden I just had this, this
really deep sense that like,that I was forgiven.
Like that I was forgiven, likemy sins, you know?
And, um, you know, which weremany, you know, at 41 I came in,
you know, walked through thedoors of a church, like soaked
in sin and um, you know, I hadthis deep sense of being
(29:41):
forgiven that made me realize.
That I'd never forgiven myselfand I, not even for the things
that I've done like, but justfor, for who I was, you know,
like on a very fundamental corelevel that I think a lot of
recovering addicts or addicts,but you know, like relate to is
like just this sort of deeplyburnt in sense of shame.
(30:02):
That it's not all right to beme.
And I realized that.
And then it just felt this veryprofound sense of forgiveness
and that was very tearful andjoyful and bittersweet and sad.
And then, and then I was inSouth Africa on a work trip and,
and some of those, you know,urges and cravings and addictive
(30:22):
thoughts started to kind of comeback and, um.
I lent into the Bible, um, toPsalm 51 and I, which is about,
you know, renewing me a clean,clean spirit, you know, renew
renewing me a clean heart, youknow, in a steadfast, loyal
spirit, depending on thetranslation.
And I.
And I just prayed this desperateprayer of submission.
(30:44):
Really, you know, like Jamesfour seven, like, submit
yourself to God, resist thedevil and he will flee from you.
And what I realized in doingthat prayer was that like, I'd
spent a long time resisting thedevil.
I never submitted to God, youknow?
And, uh, it was just a, uh, justa desperate prayer like of like.
(31:04):
It was like a first step moment,you know, from the kind of AA
steps, you know, the admissionof powerlessness.
It was like, yeah, I can't dothis like on my own.
Like I'm done.
Like I need you.
Like I need him.
You know, it was this reallydesperate prayer and something
shifted then, and those thoughtshave, have never really come
back or that they've tickledaround the edges, but they've
(31:25):
never really come back.
And then, and then the finalthing, which was just so
indisputable was, was being inchurch and, um.
Just getting hit with this,this, this sense of love, like
this deep love that just washedover me.
And, uh, and you know, I know wespoke about this separately,
pat, but like, it was this, itwas completely bittersweet
(31:48):
because in realizing how loved Iwas by him and how completely
and unconditionally loved bywhom I was, I realized that I'd
never really felt that and I'dnever, I never knew how to feel
that.
I didn't grow up in anenvironment that particularly
supported feeling that.
And, um, and I just sobbed, man.
I remember just sobbing, like Ihad to go to the, the toilet at
(32:11):
the back of the church and likeclean myself up afterwards.
Like, I was like a mess.
You know what I mean?
And um, yeah.
And that was like, and on theback of that, it's, it's like I
don't believe that God loves me.
Do you know what I mean?
And I don't think that God lovesme like I know.
I know he loves me likeunmistakably, like there's no
(32:34):
doubt in my mind, you know?
And even though like my trust inGod can, and Jesus can waver
sometimes, you know, when thingsaren't going quite my way and
there's a growing edge there forme in my faith journey.
But like my faith ne no hasnever, it doesn't shift.
You know?
Like I know that Jesus was theson of God.
(32:56):
I know that God created theearth.
I know.
Like, I know that he walked theearth and I know that he died
and it cause first sins.
And I know that he rose againthree days later.
Like, it's just like I know thatthat's the case.
Like I know he is, you know, theking.
You know, like it's as simple asthat.
Like there's no doubt.
There's no doubt.
Pat (33:16):
Said, and when people, when people realize that that's where
the peace, that's where thehealing, and that's what
happened with me the day that Ifinally gave it all up, I was
healed.
was just, I, I was healed ofthose, uh, of, of those things,
uh, from the past and, and, andone misconception, people think,
people think you give.
(33:38):
You, you give your life toJesus, you become a Christian
that you're walking around withwith no regret.
Now Jesus paid the price, but,but both of us, and I encourage,
Richard had mentioned, you know,the struggles his early
childhood.
We don't have time to get intoit.
But if you go back to theearlier episodes, You will see
(34:00):
that Richard had a very toughchildhood and had every reason
in the world to not feel loved.
And, and I come in contact withso many people, Richard, that I
can just tell, I can just lookin their eyes and I start to
hear their stories.
'cause I'm genuinely interestedin everybody's story.
'cause everybody has afascinating story.
(34:21):
They don't have to go through ordo the things that we did.
And all the, that I did.
But they all have a fascinatingstory.
But people struggle because oflack of love.
We all want love.
And you had a reason to not.
Not believe it.
I had some reason, some not,some I brought on my own.
But that's where it all comesfrom.
And the whole point of, givingyour life to Jesus is feeling
(34:44):
that love and knowing thatyou're loved does not mean that
saint's not gonna shoot hisarrows at you.
He, he is, he's, I, use a phraseI call Monday morning Atheist.
My wife doesn't like it, butit's Friday.
Hallelujah Great.
You know, sermons, you wake upon Monday and the devil's like,
(35:07):
he just start, you know, itstarts in on you, but when you,
when, when you're able to drawon, on the peace and the joy and
the strength that Jesus givesyou, and when you know, it's
like you said, I know people askme, I, I, I've talked to
somebody's in an agnostic or anatheist and they start, I said,
you know, I can't, I'll explainthings about, you know, the,
the, the Bibles.
(35:27):
can't explain the Bible.
Uh, you can't explain all ofthese things, but I said, but
the proof is this is who I was.
And this is who I am now, I knowit.
I'm not interested in, winningany debates.
I just know who I am and theonly difference in my life is my
faith in, Jesus, and it'savailable for anybody.
(35:47):
I.
And he will wait as long as, asit takes, for you to come.
And there are people out therethat don't know Jesus.
There are people that do thatare just like you and I were,
that are right now listening tothis that are struggling day to
day.
It might not just be withtemptations, but just life in
general is getting up and theyjust don't know the access that
(36:08):
they have, that the peace andjoy and that the creator of the
universe has been watching themfrom day one.
Has been watching every step ofthem and he's watching them
right now.
And you can get your strengthand your peace from them.
Um, we go.
You sent me, which was kindquite amazing.
(36:30):
You, you're quite the brilliantguy there, Richard.
Because I was thinking aboutthis, the o the other day, and
I, was thinking about we'regoing do our next episode and I
was looking at, and it was just,and you, out of the blue, you,
you sent me a WhatsApp messageand it was at a time that I
never get a WhatsApp messagefrom you.
I get it.
Richard sent this at one o'clockat night and I've got it.
(36:52):
And you sent these two poems,which were.
Just brilliant.
And if I got chills each time Iread, uh, the first one, I
haven't really delved into thesecond one'cause I keep reading
the first one again.
uh, I don't wanna put you on thespot, but could you just as we
close out, just read that pointthat, that you wrote.
Rich (37:15):
Yeah, of course.
Pat.
Thank you.
So this is a poem I wrote calledHe Loves You Anyway.
And uh, it goes, it goes likethis.
So I came to the order, soakedin sin, drenched in, shown, and
mired in the world, shackled byLies.
And he said, come as you are andI'll wash you clean'cause I love
(37:37):
you anyway, more than you couldever know.
I always have.
I.
Pat (37:47):
That's, fantastic, Richard.
Because if anyone that can getthat in their heart and in their
mind can change their lives andthere's, and nothing more
important than those last fivelines.
Those last five lines, which isI, it is something I try to tell
people all the time I love youanyway, more than you could ever
(38:11):
know.
And I always have.
I always do, and I always will.
All the things we were goingthrough in our lives.
All the things that people thatare listening to this have gone
through, if they just get intotheir minds and into their
hearts that Jesus has alwaysloved them, always does.
(38:37):
Always will.
That is life changing, and thatis where you can find the
strength to living a life ofpeace and joy and happiness and
purpose, uh, which you and Ihave, have found, and we'll
continue to try to share in ournext episode.
rich Till next time, I love you,man.
(38:57):
text me when you get toAmsterdam and, uh,
Rich (39:01):
I, I'm not, I'm not gonna Amsterdam.
Pat (39:04):
you're not.
Rich (39:06):
No, I'm gonna New York.
Pat (39:07):
Oh, well maybe text me when you get to New York.
Okay bud.
Alright, till next time.
Alright, take care.
Rich (39:21):
Take care, pat.
Bye.
And welcome everybody to the two Unlikely Christians
podcast.
I'm comedian, author Pat McCool,in the Piney Woods of South
Mississippi, sitting on thebanks of the lake, and to my
good buddy all the way acrossthe pond in the academic capital
of the world.
Esteemed psychotherapist andaddiction specialist Richard
(00:44):
Turrell.
up rich?
Rich (00:47):
Not too much, man.
End of a long week.
Um, I'm actually in Londontoday, so less the, um, academic
kind of hub, mortar, economic,but yeah, no, I'm in the big
city today.
But all his, all his well mateand mixed exactly man.
He had a feud.
Systems that still alive andkicking.
(01:09):
I've got some, there's a queueof peasants down the road
actually bringing me their,their offerings.
Pat (01:15):
You said you had the servants last time things up to
the
Rich (01:18):
Yeah.
Pat (01:19):
to make sure there wasn't any revolt going on there.
Rich (01:22):
Nah, man.
They're all, they're all undermanners, as we say, over here.
They're all under manners.
Pat (01:28):
That's good because, you know, you know, I love your
Brits, but you, you guys hadsome na you know, if they ever
turned on you, you have somenasty ways of disposing people.
You know, like,
Rich (01:38):
man.
Yeah, yeah.
Pat (01:39):
it's like
Rich (01:40):
Yeah.
Pat (01:40):
in America, we, we had a little bar bearish history
where, you know, we would frypeople in electric chair, but if
we hung people, we just hungthem.
You guys were kind of like, Hey,I go out on idea.
Let's hang the bloke, but let'sdon't kill him.
Just before he is dead, let'sdrop him, remove all his limbs
(02:01):
and hang him again.
So,
Rich (02:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's like, um.
So when you, you double frysomething, you know, you cook it
and then you cook it again.
Get some extra flavor into it,
Pat (02:13):
put some
Rich (02:14):
you know,
Pat (02:14):
flavor.
You just wanna discourage the,discourage the next guy from
trying to overthrow, uh,Richard.
Richard in the castle.
Rich (02:22):
yeah, well, we, uh, we let, we let the world in
mistreating bed I think for awhile there.
So,
Pat (02:29):
Oh,
Rich (02:29):
yeah.
But.
Pat (02:30):
no, but, and we, we love you for it, especially in
America.
We've got, uh, we got July 4thcoming up.
I mean, was it for you guys?
We wouldn't have, we wouldn'thave Independence Day and a
three day Holli holiday.
We're deeply appreciative of it,you know, so, uh, so,
Rich (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That really, that really comesacross
Pat (02:51):
oh man.
Well, look, I, but it is good tosee you.
Because speaking
Rich (02:55):
you too, man.
Pat (02:55):
you know, at the ending of our last episode, things got a
little awkward and we, justwanna share with the people
that,
Rich (03:02):
I.
Pat (03:02):
you know, at the beginning of our, episodes.
mentioned where I'm from andwhere that I'm sitting down in
Mississippi and that you're overin England.
And, we do that to let peopleknow that, to illustrate the
that kind of make us the twounlikely Christians.
But with that said, that meanswe can't just pick the phone up
(03:23):
and call each other and, uh,have a conversation.
Well, we could.
We don't, I don't wanna spend$30for a 10 minute conversation,
and Richard doesn't wanna spend20 pounds talking to me for 10
minutes, but Richard brought meinto the 21st century by
introducing me to WhatsApp.
(03:45):
So now at two o'clock in themorning, I could just send a
text to Rich, or actually, hesends it to me because he's six
hours ahead.
So way we do this is.
I will send a WhatsApp messageto Rich saying I've sent the
leak.
Join the con, join theconversation at your leisure,
(04:05):
he'll jump on and then we'llstart the conversation.
Or, or actually he will send mea message back saying, I'm
coming.
And 15 minutes later he'll showback up.
'cause he wants me to feel likeI'm talking to my wife.
So, so we actually, Richard's a,Richard's a very busy man.
So the last time we did that, Isent Richard the, the message,
(04:31):
sent the link.
said, Jeff, I'm coming.
We start the episode.
And I set the phone down.
During the episode, I see amessage flash across the top
from my wife, and the messagesays, I'm in Polk.
The reason she sent that wasbecause in my family, we tell
(04:52):
each other where we're going,what we're doing, if we're
taking a trip, if we're going.
To the grocery store.
It's text me when you get there.
I love you.
I love you.
Text me when you're coming back.
Be careful.
This time she was on a two, uh,going on a two or three day trip
(05:13):
and she had just left.
And so when the episode ended.
I up the phone.
She had just told me where shewas and I sent her a message
saying, just finish the, justfinish talking to Rich.
The dogs are indignant'cause Iwouldn't let'em in the office.
fun.
Be careful.
I love you dearly and threw inabout five exclamation points
(05:39):
and I even think I threw a heartemoji or two in there.
'cause I'm a very sensitive guy.
doesn't, I'm still, you know, alittle bit of a Renaissance man
and I.
Went on one my life and washappy with myself.
A few minutes later I walked bythe counter and I pick up the
phone the WhatsApp app is open Irealized I had just sent that
(06:03):
message to Richard.
So I had
Rich (06:08):
Well the thing was, the thing was, pat, you, you didn't
say with just, you'd justfinished talking to me.
'cause that would've given itaway that you were.
Talking to someone else.
So actually what it came acrosswas that you, you told that you,
it was an update on how the dogswere.
And then have fun and becareful.
I love you immensely, which was,you know, it was different.
(06:31):
I know you Americans are, youknow, you're very expressive,
you know, you don't have tostiff up a lip like we have.
But, um, yeah, I mean, I had totake a beat and really think
about, you know, where, whereour relationship was at.
Um.
I generally like to be boughtdinner before we start to get
into that kind of thing, youknow?
So yeah, it was a moment.
(06:52):
Pat was a moment.
Pat (06:54):
When I saw it, I just, I, I popped into a sweat.
I was just, I was just thinkingof No.
no.
Richard thinks I'm trying totake the relationship to another
level.
I mean, you know, I love you,man, but I love you in a, I love
you man, kinda way.
Not, uh, I love you.
Text me when you land inAmsterdam, so I know my booboo
(07:19):
it, made it safely.
Rich (07:21):
Yeah.
I'm, I love you, man.
That's, that.
I'm comfortable there, pat,that's, that's more, that's
enough.
That's more that, you know what?
That's, that's more than enough.
Pat (07:29):
I did get your response.
I realized I did before I washammering
Rich (07:34):
Yeah.
Pat (07:34):
my, oh my gosh.
This is to my wife.
But I did notice your, uh, I,your, your reply was, I know you
guys are a little moredemonstrative with your
emotions, but you haven't evenbought me dinner yet.
So,
Rich (07:46):
Yeah,
Pat (07:47):
I dried the
Rich (07:48):
then that, that, it's probably a good point to draw
your attention to this bit offunctionality where it says
Block Pat McCall and thenreport, report Pat Pat McCall.
So it's always good to know thatthat's there, pat.
Yeah.
Pat (08:04):
Okay.
Well, alright, so now that wegot, we got all that settled.
Alright, let's get back to our,our favorite topic and, and, and
that is Jesus.
Um, the end of our last episode,uh, for those of you that are
just joining us who havelistened, Our podcast is really
a continuation of a conversationthat started about a year and a
half to two years ago.
(08:25):
Uh, we met and, realized we hada deep, passion for, for helping
other people.
And the best way to help peopleis share the gospel of Jesus.
And then we just started havinga conversation and we thought in
our first episode that we wouldjust cover our story so everyone
would know our background.
And here we are in.
Fourth episode and we haven'tquite gotten it all out yet.
(08:48):
Um, to go back to the end of ourlast episode, I had just
finished.
telling you about stepping outof this office After I'd stepped
out of this courtroom, found outI'd gotten probation at 18 years
old, uh, that I wasn't going toprison, that I thought I was
going to, I went to visit theperson that I.
(09:10):
I had had shot at me and Ithought he was shooting to scare
me, but told me that he wasactually pumping bullets from a
38 caliber weapon right at myback.
And they were almost like theywere going right through me.
I left this gentleman's officeand went and sat in my car at
(09:31):
which brought back all thememories of all the times that
God had been with me in my life.
And.
That's when I really startedrealizing that God had been with
me all along and, all of thedots that connect in our lives
that everybody has.
So from, that point forward,after I left that parking lot
(09:57):
that day, I went and got my acttogether., I went and took what
we call a CT, uh.
In America, which qual, youknow, to get into, to college.
I did enroll at the Universityof Southern Mississippi and
started getting, started gettingmy act together.
I still had a long journey withJesus, but to illustrate how all
of these, dots get connected,the following summer, uh,
(10:20):
answered an ad for a, uh.
Job that was, that paid a goodbit of money for my age and back
at that time.
And I told myself if that was,was, it's anything but
insurance, I'm gonna take thisjob.
'cause I know that I could, youknow, I could do well at sales.
(10:40):
I went to the job and interviewand it was insurance.
So of course I took the job and,uh, turned out I was really good
at it.
After a few years, I quicklybecame a top salesman with this
company.
After a few years, I got hiredaway by one of the top companies
in the country, a Fortune 500company, and that's where I met
(11:02):
my wife, which was one of thebest things that ever happened
to me in my life because mywife's father was a Church of
God pastor.
My wife was a, Quite the womanof God herself.
And I had an awful lot ofpolishing up to do and she
helped me polish up.
(11:23):
And within a couple of years I'dactually gotten promoted to
becoming one of the top, uh, oneof the youngest regional
directors in the company'shistory at the age I was at.
And we did this for 15, 20years, just like you, Richard,
the cars and the houses and thevacations.
(11:44):
But something was missing whereyou were having a, the void and
the habits were all coming back.
I, in my case, it was afterabout 15 or 20 years, I just
felt like God had something elsefor me to do, that he didn't
just bring me through everythinghe brought me through just to
make a lot of money and driveJaguars.
And, which by the way, to showyou how much we love the Brits,
(12:06):
we've had three jaguars.
I
Rich (12:09):
Oh, nice.
Pat (12:10):
I got one sitting out in the driveway covered by a tarp.
Rich (12:14):
I didn't know they made pickup trucks, but.
Pat (12:16):
No, it's a, well, it's a Jaguar.
And the great thing about thegreat thing about driving
Jaguars, Richard, because ittaught me why the British don't
make televisions you haven'tfigured out how to make'em leak
oil because.
Because, because that, thatthing's engine blew up at
137,000 miles.
(12:36):
But I should have changed theoil a little bit more on it.
But, the point was we, you know,we had a lot of success, but I
did have a, a kind of a void inlife and that's when I took, one
day I came home and told my wifethat I had quit.
The insurance business and Ithought she was gonna gather up,
uh, the jewelry and call herparents and get a good attorney.
(12:58):
just looked at me and said, Iknew you were going to, I think
God has something else for youto do.
I went and did a, spot at a bigclub.
And.
Birmingham, Alabama.
And when the show was over withthe, uh, the audience erupted,
the owner of the club called mein and said, I, I could do this
if I really wanted to.
And next thing you know, I'mperforming around the country
(13:22):
and performing in the Hollywoodimprov with guys like Jerry
Seinfeld and traded the RitzCarlton Inn for, for.
Pilot truck stops and uh, and,and I was off and running.
But that's what led me toeventually moving to New York
City and getting to the pointwhere I wrote my book.
You had mentioned my bookearlier, bonsai wasn't really
(13:45):
that big of a hill.
One man's walk towards God isthe subtitle, but one man's Walk
towards God is really what thebook was about.
Because after I wrote the book.
I got asked to speak in a churchand I, did, I wrote an act and
my, act was always clean, but, Imade sure it was clean to where
(14:06):
I could speak in a church.
And while I was in the middle ofdoing that, I did my comedy show
up for about 40 minutes, andthen I started sharing my
testimony, which they wanted meto do from the book.
And I literally.
Broke into tears while I'mstanding on stage talking.
(14:26):
the chills came over me and it,and it was one of the most
joyful experiences I'd ever had.
And that's when I realized, thisis what God wants me to do.
again, I had this moment whereGod had been in my life.
Every step of the way knowing Iwas going to get to this moment
in time that took decades anddecades and decades.
(14:50):
And it illustrates, God doesthis in everyone's life.
just like in your life, Richard,I was really, stunned when you
started telling your story.
You were how old when you, whenyou enrolled in university?
Rich (15:09):
Oh, 34.
34 years old.
Pat (15:12):
So,
Rich (15:13):
Yeah.
Pat (15:15):
you were still struggling quite a bit all through your
twenties.
Rich (15:19):
Oh yeah.
Big time.
Yeah.
So I, I, I walked through thedoors of a 12 step meeting when
I was 29.
I was 32 when I eventuallycleaned up, you know, I got
clean and stayed clean, so,yeah.
Yeah.
My twenties were like a, a carcrash, honestly, like.
Like they started badly and it,it got worse.
Um, and definitely by the time Iwas 29, I was, I mean, I was
(15:42):
lost, man.
Not completely lost, broke,broken alone, friendlies,
Pat (15:50):
See.
Rich (15:51):
suicidal.
Pat (15:52):
The point I'm trying to illustrate to, anyone that's
listening.
What happened to my turn startedat 18 to 19 years old.
That's when I ended up at you.
I either had to clean myself up,or I'm going to prison.
I started that.
You didn't start to, at 29 yearsold is when you started getting
(16:13):
your act together.
so there are people out therewith the family members I.
Children, people that they thinkthat, God has you know, it's too
late for them.
You know, this person would'vedone this at this age.
The fact that you started at 29years old is, is a pretty
fascinating story.
So you went on to school, butwhen did, when did you start
(16:37):
having your experience with,faith with Jesus?
I.
Rich (16:42):
Oh.
Much later, like, um, I must'vebeen clean.
For, yeah, like 40, 41 yearsold.
Pat (16:57):
At at 41 years old.
Rich (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So,'cause I was in 12, well I amstill, but like in 12 step
recovery.
So, you know, it is a spiritualprogram.
So one of the things we wereencouraged to do is, you know,
to kind seek out spirituality.
So I looked at a lot ofdifferent, um.
Avenues like Buddhism and, um,um, what else?
(17:24):
Like, I did a Native Americansweat lodge at one point.
Um, so I've, you know, I, youknow, pretty intense.
I mean, I don't wanna speak illof anyone else's belief system,
but it wasn't for me.
Um, it was being in a kind ofvery dark, very hot space with a
lot of other men shouting andbeating drums.
(17:45):
So it was a bit like.
Um, yeah, I mean, I've found thewhole thing quite traumatic, to
be honest with you, pat.
It certainly didn't make mefeel, didn't, I didn't get any
kind of sense of connection outof it, but, um, so, but yeah,
I've been looking for a whileand then, but the church, it's
really interesting.
I guess it'd be something for usto talk about, you know, like
later would be, certainly inEngland there's a, like,
(18:09):
Christianity is not cool.
You know, it's like, it's reallyseen as like, oh, it's, you
know, people.
Oh right.
You've, you are one of them areya, you know, like sort of
churchgoers and, you know, seenas kind of Yeah.
Just odd balls really.
So I, I kind of always had this,this resistance to, to the idea
of Jesus.
(18:29):
I believed in God, didn'tbelieve in Jesus, found the
whole thing kind of cringey andawkward.
And, um, and I, I still found itcringey and awkward when I went.
But I was, again, had reachedanother point of brokenness.
'cause even without the drugs,my addiction, you know, I've
manifested in, in so manydifferent things like work and
money and sex and food.
(18:50):
And I was just done, man.
Like, and then kind of hit thatkind of rock bottom place again,
just without the drugs.
And, um, and then I, yeah, so Iwalked through the doors of a
church basically looking foranswers and that, that, you
know, so that came much later.
Pat (19:07):
That's fascinating, but that's the point was you didn't
reach that point of peace.
Until you walked through thedoors of that church and started
a relationship.
Rich (19:21):
Yeah.
Like a hundred percent.
Like it's like a, you know, thatkind of piece that transcends
all understanding, you know,like just, yeah, that was, yeah.
I've never really felt that.
It felt like I.
Um, and it didn't happenstraight away.
It took a lot of hard work and alot of dedication and reading
the Bible every day and prayingevery day from when it didn't
(19:42):
make sense.
But, um, yeah, like just it.
Something, someone, Jesusreached in and touched parts of
me that nothing else had beenable to, to reach and heal like
without a shadow of a doubt.
And that's after like a decadeof psychotherapy, personal
psychotherapy, you know,1,000,012 step meetings, three
(20:03):
or four sort of trips throughthe 12 steps.
Yeah.
Pat (20:11):
As you know, he, he was with you every step of the way.
Anybody that doesn't know theearlier episodes that Richard
had, some, very dangerousmoments stabbed, bleeding out,
almost killed, we both camethrough some incredible, um,
moments that we, we brought onourselves.
God brought us through those.
(20:31):
He, was watching and with us allalong and he was, he was
watching and waiting.
But the thing that youillustrate is that at 41 years
old, so if you're in yourtwenties, if you are in your
thirties, um.
God is still waiting and He willwait for you and it still is a
(20:52):
journey.
You don't have a moment.
You know, as you mentioned to meafter reading my book, when we,
we, you know, we went, we didn'ttalk for a little while and we
touched back base after you hadhad read it.
I decided I was going to believein God.
There's a difference inbelieving in God and there's a
difference in just giving yourlife to Jesus, turning things
(21:13):
over to him, because when I metmy wife, it was, yeah, I, I
believe in God, but I still, Igot in the business world, you
know, I.
I, I wasn't past telling a fibto win a business deal or things
like that, and my wife wasalways standing over there.
Just, she's, she's thisincredible woman that would, uh,
what did you say?
(21:34):
Oh, did you tell him?
Well, that's not true, is it?
I was like, yeah, but I got togot the deal.
And she's like, yeah, well.
You really think Jesus wants andlittle things just kept moving
along with me.
I was making money, but I reallywasn't filled with the peace.
Everything felt like, um.
(21:56):
But I was moving, you know, Iwas believing in God.
I believed in JI had, when Iwent for that, that took that
first job in the insurancebusiness.
man was a, uh, I don't know if Itold you this or it was in the
book.
The man was a, Christian and heasked me if I'd believed in God
and he, and I said, I did.
He said, did you, um.
(22:18):
Have you ever accepted Jesus?
I, uh, no.
Boy, I really started sweatingthen, and, and he said, you want
to?
And I was just, you know, Imean, what was I gonna do?
So, so I, we prayed the, theLord's and officially.
Got saved or gave my life toChrist then, but I never really,
I, I really didn't give anythingup at that point in time.
(22:40):
I prayed that prayer, consideredmyself saved.
I'm a Christian, went on aboutmy business, but, and I was
still considering myself, butthere were still things I still
kind had that that piece was notthere.
It was still a life withanxiety.
It was about how much money am Igonna make?
How much can I accomplish here?
I still had a little rage.
I never, you know, I, I was alittle bit of a rageaholic.
(23:03):
I, you know, I, still had all ofthese things and then I, I went
on to become a, even when Ibecame a comedian, if you recall
in the book, you had mentionedthat moment where I had been
trying to work everything out onmy own and, I had that incident
where I had this show canceled.
Anyway, things had all of asudden that had gone incredibly
(23:25):
well.
But then they kind of startedgoing well for me and I end up
in that church and, and thepastor of the church gives the
invitation.
I don't know what they do inEngland, but uh.
He gives this invitation at theend of the church services,
anyone, you know, come to thealtar, I'm assuming, I think
you've said similar experiences.
Rich (23:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Pat (23:50):
and as a matter of fact, the video you sent me of your
last church service, Verysimilar to the church service
here.
'cause I was wondering, what'sit like in England?
What do you do?
I mean, I, I know, I don't, I, Iknow we joke about it, but I'm
like, is everybody wearingrobes?
You know?
Is is the, the, is is thepastor?
Rich (24:13):
We got some of that.
But you know, I, I'll go to, youknow, for me it's about kind of
modern church, modern worshipmusic and you know, so like I
get, that's where I find my, youknow, that's my home, you know.
But um, yeah, we have the autocall, you know, we have the auto
call and um, you know, Idefinitely get that kind of
experience.
I came in, I believed, you know,I believed quite quickly, you
(24:36):
know, and I got baptized on thatbasis.
I believed that Jesus was theson of God, that he died on the
cross three days later, and thenhe rose up to heaven to sit at
the right hand of a father.
And I knew that was true all ofa sudden, but I didn't, you
know, my life was still, I wasstill very lost is the truth.
You know, I was still very lost.
Um, and then I.
(24:56):
A bit like you, you know, likethe shows start got canceled and
things started going wrong.
And you know, for me, my lifeblew up.
Like my addictions, my non-drugrelated addictions all, you
know, it all blew up.
It all came out and you, youknow, it was an extremely
difficult time.
But I got a pat of pastorfriend, um, in New York called,
called Roman Ramos, and he talksabout, um.
(25:18):
Sooner or later, you know, likeJesus keeps knocking, you know,
in the end it's like, are youlistening yet?
Are you ready to listen yet?
You know, and that's, you know,when life tends to fall apart a
little bit and then we have nochoice, or I had no choice but
to, you know, something in thatbrokenness.
Like, I found, I found himthere, or he found me there, I
(25:39):
suppose, you know, but it was inthe, in the, in the ruins of a,
a worldly life that I, that hefound me.
Pat (25:47):
Well that's, the similar situation I had.
I was still trying to do things,my way.
I hadn't really completelyturned it over.
And, that day he gave thatinvitation.
And I don't, I You read it inthe book,'cause you mentioned,
you mentioned it to me where he.
The, pastor was fantastic.
Pastor, he's my pastor now, andhe said, I'm, he gave the,
(26:09):
invitation and nobody moved.
And, and I didn't, I was kindof, I, you know, I was like,
okay, I'm, everybody here's gotsomething to get off their
chest, already done it, youknow, let's move along to, you
know, the, the football gamestarting.
I'm ready to go home.
And he said, well, he said, keepsinging to the choir.
(26:29):
And he said.
I just feel like there'ssomebody in here that I'm
speaking to and I'm thinking, Iwish that person, you know, on
with it.
And so we could get on outtahere.
And it turned out it was me andthe moment that I threw my hands
up, and the moment that I didthat, that's where everything
(26:49):
really officially changed withme.
I had this feeling come over melike there was no drug.
and, and that's where the, I I,I think at that moment, that's
where the Holy Spirit.
I had made room for him, and Ithink that's what happened with
you.
You had made room you, you canbelieve in God, and I'm saying
this for people that are outthere, that believe in God just
(27:10):
like you, when I left that man'soffice.
Uh, you know, when I first gotin the insurance business, I, at
that point in my mind, believedyou just said.
Jesus was the son of God and hegave his life for us, but I
hadn't fully accepted that in myheart to go get the peace.
(27:31):
And the joy and, and, and thepath that he has for me.
And, uh, that's why that, that'san amazing story that you had
at, at 41 years old that thatfinally, that finally happens
for you.
And now that you have the peace,uh, it's just an amazing story.
And people just need to, tounderstand that God has been
(27:54):
with you all your life.
If you look back through all ofthe things that have happened.
He was there, he was watching,he was waiting.
He's bringing you along, but youhave to give in and you have to
accept him fully into youbecause when you start talking
about those other thingsmanifesting in your life, that
is the devil.
That's Satan shooting arrows atyou because the, the, the, the
(28:17):
higher value targets you are.
The more you're moving towardsGod and the more you're moving
towards Jesus, the more he'sgonna start attacking you.
And that's what he was doing toyou.
But what the beneficial thing isif, if you are on that path,
God's waiting for you and itpushed you into that moment
where you gave it all up.
And it's just like you said, themoment you had in South Africa
(28:38):
where you started reading, youliterally picked up the Bible
and started reading a Bibleverse and.
That's what made all the, and,and, and that at that point gave
you the peace and it it gave youthe healing that you needed to,
to, to move along.
Rich (28:55):
That was a big shit.
You know, there were threereally big like felt things that
happened and um, one was.
And there were, you know, lotsof things that happened in my
path.
People were put in my path, youknow, um, you know, a wonderful
chaplain when I was in, um, inthe treatment center in Arizona,
you know, a pastor that, thatwas a, a great friend of mine
(29:17):
there, and I, I, I just, all ofa sudden I just had this, this
really deep sense that like,that I was forgiven.
Like that I was forgiven, likemy sins, you know?
And, um, you know, which weremany, you know, at 41 I came in,
you know, walked through thedoors of a church, like soaked
in sin and um, you know, I hadthis deep sense of being
(29:41):
forgiven that made me realize.
That I'd never forgiven myselfand I, not even for the things
that I've done like, but justfor, for who I was, you know,
like on a very fundamental corelevel that I think a lot of
recovering addicts or addicts,but you know, like relate to is
like just this sort of deeplyburnt in sense of shame.
(30:02):
That it's not all right to beme.
And I realized that.
And then it just felt this veryprofound sense of forgiveness
and that was very tearful andjoyful and bittersweet and sad.
And then, and then I was inSouth Africa on a work trip and,
and some of those, you know,urges and cravings and addictive
(30:22):
thoughts started to kind of comeback and, um.
I lent into the Bible, um, toPsalm 51 and I, which is about,
you know, renewing me a clean,clean spirit, you know, renew
renewing me a clean heart, youknow, in a steadfast, loyal
spirit, depending on thetranslation.
And I.
And I just prayed this desperateprayer of submission.
(30:44):
Really, you know, like Jamesfour seven, like, submit
yourself to God, resist thedevil and he will flee from you.
And what I realized in doingthat prayer was that like, I'd
spent a long time resisting thedevil.
I never submitted to God, youknow?
And, uh, it was just a, uh, justa desperate prayer like of like.
(31:04):
It was like a first step moment,you know, from the kind of AA
steps, you know, the admissionof powerlessness.
It was like, yeah, I can't dothis like on my own.
Like I'm done.
Like I need you.
Like I need him.
You know, it was this reallydesperate prayer and something
shifted then, and those thoughtshave, have never really come
back or that they've tickledaround the edges, but they've
(31:25):
never really come back.
And then, and then the finalthing, which was just so
indisputable was, was being inchurch and, um.
Just getting hit with this,this, this sense of love, like
this deep love that just washedover me.
And, uh, and you know, I know wespoke about this separately,
pat, but like, it was this, itwas completely bittersweet
(31:48):
because in realizing how loved Iwas by him and how completely
and unconditionally loved bywhom I was, I realized that I'd
never really felt that and I'dnever, I never knew how to feel
that.
I didn't grow up in anenvironment that particularly
supported feeling that.
And, um, and I just sobbed, man.
I remember just sobbing, like Ihad to go to the, the toilet at
(32:11):
the back of the church and likeclean myself up afterwards.
Like, I was like a mess.
You know what I mean?
And um, yeah.
And that was like, and on theback of that, it's, it's like I
don't believe that God loves me.
Do you know what I mean?
And I don't think that God lovesme like I know.
I know he loves me likeunmistakably, like there's no
(32:34):
doubt in my mind, you know?
And even though like my trust inGod can, and Jesus can waver
sometimes, you know, when thingsaren't going quite my way and
there's a growing edge there forme in my faith journey.
But like my faith ne no hasnever, it doesn't shift.
You know?
Like I know that Jesus was theson of God.
(32:56):
I know that God created theearth.
I know.
Like, I know that he walked theearth and I know that he died
and it cause first sins.
And I know that he rose againthree days later.
Like, it's just like I know thatthat's the case.
Like I know he is, you know, theking.
You know, like it's as simple asthat.
Like there's no doubt.
There's no doubt.
Pat (33:16):
Said, and when people, when people realize that that's where
the peace, that's where thehealing, and that's what
happened with me the day that Ifinally gave it all up, I was
healed.
was just, I, I was healed ofthose, uh, of, of those things,
uh, from the past and, and, andone misconception, people think,
people think you give.
(33:38):
You, you give your life toJesus, you become a Christian
that you're walking around withwith no regret.
Now Jesus paid the price, but,but both of us, and I encourage,
Richard had mentioned, you know,the struggles his early
childhood.
We don't have time to get intoit.
But if you go back to theearlier episodes, You will see
(34:00):
that Richard had a very toughchildhood and had every reason
in the world to not feel loved.
And, and I come in contact withso many people, Richard, that I
can just tell, I can just lookin their eyes and I start to
hear their stories.
'cause I'm genuinely interestedin everybody's story.
'cause everybody has afascinating story.
(34:21):
They don't have to go through ordo the things that we did.
And all the, that I did.
But they all have a fascinatingstory.
But people struggle because oflack of love.
We all want love.
And you had a reason to not.
Not believe it.
I had some reason, some not,some I brought on my own.
But that's where it all comesfrom.
And the whole point of, givingyour life to Jesus is feeling
(34:44):
that love and knowing thatyou're loved does not mean that
saint's not gonna shoot hisarrows at you.
He, he is, he's, I, use a phraseI call Monday morning Atheist.
My wife doesn't like it, butit's Friday.
Hallelujah Great.
You know, sermons, you wake upon Monday and the devil's like,
(35:07):
he just start, you know, itstarts in on you, but when you,
when, when you're able to drawon, on the peace and the joy and
the strength that Jesus givesyou, and when you know, it's
like you said, I know people askme, I, I, I've talked to
somebody's in an agnostic or anatheist and they start, I said,
you know, I can't, I'll explainthings about, you know, the,
the, the Bibles.
(35:27):
can't explain the Bible.
Uh, you can't explain all ofthese things, but I said, but
the proof is this is who I was.
And this is who I am now, I knowit.
I'm not interested in, winningany debates.
I just know who I am and theonly difference in my life is my
faith in, Jesus, and it'savailable for anybody.
(35:47):
I.
And he will wait as long as, asit takes, for you to come.
And there are people out therethat don't know Jesus.
There are people that do thatare just like you and I were,
that are right now listening tothis that are struggling day to
day.
It might not just be withtemptations, but just life in
general is getting up and theyjust don't know the access that
(36:08):
they have, that the peace andjoy and that the creator of the
universe has been watching themfrom day one.
Has been watching every step ofthem and he's watching them
right now.
And you can get your strengthand your peace from them.
Um, we go.
You sent me, which was kindquite amazing.
(36:30):
You, you're quite the brilliantguy there, Richard.
Because I was thinking aboutthis, the o the other day, and
I, was thinking about we'regoing do our next episode and I
was looking at, and it was just,and you, out of the blue, you,
you sent me a WhatsApp messageand it was at a time that I
never get a WhatsApp messagefrom you.
I get it.
Richard sent this at one o'clockat night and I've got it.
(36:52):
And you sent these two poems,which were.
Just brilliant.
And if I got chills each time Iread, uh, the first one, I
haven't really delved into thesecond one'cause I keep reading
the first one again.
uh, I don't wanna put you on thespot, but could you just as we
close out, just read that pointthat, that you wrote.
Rich (37:15):
Yeah, of course.
Pat.
Thank you.
So this is a poem I wrote calledHe Loves You Anyway.
And uh, it goes, it goes likethis.
So I came to the order, soakedin sin, drenched in, shown, and
mired in the world, shackled byLies.
And he said, come as you are andI'll wash you clean'cause I love
(37:37):
you anyway, more than you couldever know.
I always have.
I.
Pat (37:47):
That's, fantastic, Richard.
Because if anyone that can getthat in their heart and in their
mind can change their lives andthere's, and nothing more
important than those last fivelines.
Those last five lines, which isI, it is something I try to tell
people all the time I love youanyway, more than you could ever
(38:11):
know.
And I always have.
I always do, and I always will.
All the things we were goingthrough in our lives.
All the things that people thatare listening to this have gone
through, if they just get intotheir minds and into their
hearts that Jesus has alwaysloved them, always does.
(38:37):
Always will.
That is life changing, and thatis where you can find the
strength to living a life ofpeace and joy and happiness and
purpose, uh, which you and Ihave, have found, and we'll
continue to try to share in ournext episode.
rich Till next time, I love you,man.
(38:57):
text me when you get toAmsterdam and, uh,
Rich (39:01):
I, I'm not, I'm not gonna Amsterdam.
Pat (39:04):
you're not.
Rich (39:06):
No, I'm gonna New York.
Pat (39:07):
Oh, well maybe text me when you get to New York.
Okay bud.
Alright, till next time.
Alright, take care.
Rich (39:21):
Take care, pat.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.