August 14, 2025 • 51 mins
Richard gives advice on beginning and following through on the 12 step program to recovery. Then Pat tells the amazing story of Michael Abernathy. Who was institutionalized after a traumatic brain injury left him unable to take care of himself. Everyone gave up on him, but he and God had other plans.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:23):
Good morning, rich.
Good afternoon, pat.
So where you at today?
You in Oxford or London or SouthEnd by the sea or London today?
Yeah, north London.
London.
Today.
Y'all have such cool names overin England because one of the
neat things about.
Doing this is, I get to see, itshows all the cities and the
(00:45):
countries that we're in and youknow, we're in like five
different countries and, uh, youknow, we're in like five cities
in Japan.
We've got people listening or,or you got friends in Japan?
No, I have no friends in Japan.
So that's kind of amazing.
Really.
It's made its way over there.
I thought so, because I don'thave any friends.
I mean, I got friends around theworld, but I don't have friends
(01:06):
in Japan.
I mean, I've done comedy inother countries, but I've never,
you know, I've never done thecheap trick, live at Budokon.
I, I don't, I don't think that,I don't, I don't think the young
girls would show up for that.
I, I think the name of the albumwould be Pat Mcco, you know,
live in an empty theater talkingto himself.
Yeah.
'cause nobody likes you overhere.
(01:27):
So that was, but they, inEngland, I'm noticing all these
really cool names, like, uh, uh,Newcastle upon Ty.
Yep.
And you know, it is like y'allname, the, the, you, you name
the cities and then youmentioned the river that they're
on.
Yeah, so that would of often belike such and such upon Thas or
(01:51):
you know, a lot often littletowns have that kind of name I
guess.
'cause obviously you stole a lotof our names.
Um, but I guess if you, Isuppose it was necessary to
knock a few syllables off there.
'cause obviously you were much,you know, you're different kind
of people, you know that manysyllables might.
You know, it might confuse you,I'm guessing.
I see that.
(02:11):
Yeah.
That's where you gotShakespeare.
Stratford upon Avon.
I never understood that becauseI thought it was cool.
I was thinking of there, thetown that I live by that I'm
from has two rivers running byit and I kept saying these cool
names.
I was thinking of going to talkto the mayor and seeing if we
couldn't get a petition, youknow, we could be hattiesburg
upon leaf.
Kind of stand, well, weshouldn't do that.
(02:32):
Right.
It's just, it's nah, it's just,it's just, I think you stay in
your lane.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying,isn't it?
Stay in your lane.
Okay, well, well, speaking ofour lane, that's what brings me.
We're gonna, uh, we, we weregonna talk about the difference
between, uh, church and the USAand church in England.
And, and, and when you and Istarted going to church the
(02:53):
first time, which was actually,uh, kind of humorous, but I had
a, a little bit of an encounterthat, uh, we're gonna change the
subject and I appreciate youhumoring me there and.
Speaking of Lane, it has to dowith, uh, like college football.
We, uh, are you do, are youfamiliar with college football
(03:14):
in, in the United States?
Yes.
Yeah, no, it's different how itis here.
Here.
Like college sports are just notreally like a big thing.
Whereas I know for you guys it'stelevised and I think ut uh, I
believe the college footballstadium is a hundred thousand
people.
I.
Yeah, which is bigger.
That's bigger than our nationalstadium.
(03:34):
Wembley.
Yes.
So, yeah.
And it's not just ut, there'stwo uts actually that have a
hundred thousand plus stadiumsand Yeah.
That's crazy.
And Alabama has had had ahundred and I mean, it's in Penn
State, there's a lot of stadiumsthat have a hundred thousand
people because, um.
It's in, in the US it's a bigcollege is a big deal.
(03:56):
Mm-hmm.
'cause what we do is it's, it'seither where we went to school,
it's, uh, or we grew up liking'em.
We didn't really have to go toschool.
It could be something you did asa kid with your, your dad.
It's just, it's a big deal tous.
'cause we have these 18,23-year-old kids that.
You go out and play the otherschool's, 18 and 23-year-old
(04:16):
kids, and if our 18 to23-year-old kids be theirs, it
shows our superiority to thatperson just in life in general.
Does that, does that make sense?
Yeah.
But we have the idea ofcompetitive sports, like so that
bit makes, makes sense.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But we, yeah.
Yeah, but we take it, we take itpersonally.
You see, it's kind of adefining, it's the self-esteem
(04:39):
thing.
I know in, like in England youdon't, you have football, but
it's like F-U-T-B-O-L or youknow, soccer.
Yeah.
So we have football.
It's spel the same.
Um, I think what you arethinking of is table football,
but, uh, we, we, so we spell itthe same, but it's like with a,
it's it's proper football, youknow?
As opposed to obviously what youdo is, um.
(05:01):
Some, a kind of weird hodgepodgeof like rugby and some kind of
sport where you require a lot ofpadding so you don't get hurt
and Yeah.
Different.
Well, it's'cause what I've seenof English football with soccer,
you know, we call it here.
Yeah.
Football.
And you have huge stadiums overthere and it looks like you've
(05:22):
got a bunch of guys that.
Get out on the field and youcall it a pitch for some reason
it's a field pitch.
Yeah.
So they go out on the pitch,they run around for a few hours,
the fans get drunk and sing, youknow, you know the whole time.
And then eventually the objectof the game is to put the ball
(05:42):
on the net.
Eventually the ball will go onthe net and the announcer's
like, shocking kick Nigel.
And that's it.
You know, like, man, Unitedbeats leads one to nothing
riveting.
That's, yeah, I mean, yeah, Imean, yeah, there's a bit of
that, but, um, I mean, it isdifferent.
(06:04):
Like when I was in America a fewtimes ago, like it was Super
Bowl weekend and I thought, oh,I'll sit down and watch the
Super Bowl.
It just seemed to be like areally long ad break with like
very short bits of some kind ofsport sprinkled in occasionally.
It's a little bit about themoney, but college football is
(06:26):
as big as pro football to a lot,you know, to a lot of us.
'cause like I said, a lot of itgot, you tend to be a pro fan if
you live near the bigger cities,urban areas or that type of
thing.
College football is ingrained inyou.
It's like if you're in a stateand you got two different teams
in that state and your neighboror your friend goes to that
other school and you go to thisschool, well, it's very
(06:48):
important that your 18 to23-year-old kids beat the 18 to
23-year-old kids from thatschool because that will pretty
much affirm that you've madebetter life choices.
Do you see?
Yeah, it's, I mean, it reallymakes sense now how you guys,
you know, especially at themoment, lead the world in like
diplomacy.
(07:10):
That's it.
Well, speaking of diplomas, Ididn't get a diploma from the
school that I went to, uh,although I do think I hold the
record for enrolling the mosttimes and making the least
amount of progress.
So I think I'm recognized overthere some somewhere, but, and
my team went one in 11 lastyear.
So my self esteem's lacking alittle bit, but we tee it back
(07:32):
up in about three weeks.
But the reason I'm mentioningcollege football is there is a,
uh, it's such a big deal overhere.
We have these message boardsthat, that we go on.
And this particular messageboard, um.
That I frequent is it'sthousands of guys from all over
the country and it's aboutcollege sports or college,
(07:53):
football.
But surprisingly, that'sprobably one of the least topics
that we talk about is actual.
Sports.
We talk about everything frompolitics, current events, what's
going on in the world, peopletrying to be funny, really good
information.
I mean, if I get up and check myphone, if I get up and check my
phone at three o'clock in themorning and there's a asteroid
(08:13):
heading.
Towards Earth.
Somebody on that board is goingto have posted it.
So it's a, it's, you know, it'skind of a cool place to hang
out, especially for somebodylike me who, when I'm not doing
comedy, I don't have much of alife.
So I go on there and, there area lot of people on there.
You, we have everything from theaverage Joe to the millionaire,
(08:35):
to the average Joe that actslike a millionaire to the
average Joe that makes fun ofthe guy that acts like a
millionaire to.
Neurosurgeon, HVAC guy, policeofficers, special forces, guys
in finance, just all kinds ofwide variety of people.
It's like a big social club thatpeople go on and you got good
(08:57):
guys, you've got, uh, you know,idiots just like every club.
And people are trying, you know,they're trying to be funny or
having discussions and as men dowhen they get together and some
women, they get together.
Uh, people always wanna putthemselves in the best light.
You know, you really don't wannasay things or do things and make
(09:19):
yourself look like you'refailing at life and there are
guys on there that you recognizethat post an awful lot.
It's not just people like methat occasionally gone,'cause
I'm.
You know, not giving upimmaturity without a fight and
trying to be funny when I'm offstage.
So you have, guys, you recognizeand you know, and you know in
(09:40):
your mind you don't know theirnames, but they have like a
handle.
And you'll, you, you know who,oh, there's somebody that you've
seen a lot and this guy seemslike a good guy.
This guy's a smart guy, thisguy's funny, this guy's all, you
know, this type of thing.
And again, nobody's gonna postanything on there to try to make
themselves look like they'refailing at life.
(10:02):
But last week a guy came on thatI had recognized his, his handle
sent him on there before and hewould be what you would classify
as one of the good guys, one ofthe guys you think was doing
life well.
And let me read to you how hestarted.
(10:24):
His post last Friday at 7:34 AMand this is a guy that's been on
this board for years.
Just seems to be living life,punching life in the face.
Uh, seemed like a successful,happy go lucky guy.
I think he got married about ayear ago.
(10:44):
The post starts, I'm analcoholic.
The body of the post I went tomy first meeting yesterday
evening.
This has been a hard process tobegin.
My body detoxed yesterday, andI'm still going through it
today.
The final straw was drinking anentire bottle of liquor
Wednesday morning before evenleaving the house.
(11:06):
I went to work and an hour intoit, could barely stand.
Coworker drove me home.
Never been more embarrassed onmy life.
Remember the word embarrassedhere.
Um, I am fortunate to not havecompletely thrown everything.
I've worked so hard, far away,and my boss said he isn't ready
(11:27):
to give up on me.
Even though I told him he shouldfire me.
He offered me grace and the timeI deserve none.
I will beat this.
The withdrawals are rough, butI'm really ready to be done.
I'm disgusted with myself,remember that and what I've
become.
I'm asking for some prayers as Ibattle through this, and I know
(11:50):
I'm not going to let it beat me.
I'm too young.
I just had my one year weddinganniversary.
We were looking at buying ahouse, I'm just tired of lying
to everyone and myself.
Mm.
And I noticed, uh, let's say therich and I noticed at the bottom
within an hour or two, this posthad 327 some odd likes, which is
(12:12):
a huge amount of, of peopleliking a particular post.
And the reason I said focus onthe embarrassed and the
disgusted with myself.
Because it sounds like thisguy's coming out and admitting
he's a failure and that he'slosing, but I read this post to
my wife, and my wife is one ofthe wisest, most spirit filled
(12:38):
people that I've ever met in mylife, and she looked over and
said, man.
Can you imagine how strong hehad to be to post that?
Yeah, absolutely.
But at a moment, this guy thinkshe's admitting that he's a
failure and he's a loser.
He's actually doing one of thestrongest things he's ever done,
(13:00):
and he's actually showing howstrong he is.
And I just wanted to bring it toyou.
Not only are you an addictionspecialist, but you are now 13
years sober.
Uh, anyway, comments and advice,tips as he's just beginning this
journey.
Absolutely.
Thanks Pat.
Initial thoughts, you know, he'sadmitted, he's got a problem.
(13:23):
He's gone to a meeting.
That's huge.
Like that's, that's like nosmall thing, you know, it's the,
you know, the first step, andI'll talk about the first step
of Alcoholics Anonymous a littlebit in, in, in a minute.
But like, you know, that firstkind of teetering step into a
recovery program is, you know,it's hard.
It's like a scary thing to walkinto a room for the people.
You, you may know people inthere, you probably don't.
(13:46):
There's a different language inthere, a different culture.
You know, it can feel veryashamed.
You one can feel very ashamedwalking in there, you know?
And embarrassed and disgusted.
There are two words that reallymean shame.
For me.
So that's a huge thing.
And your wife's on the money,you know, it's like that.
It takes a huge amount ofcourage to particularly publicly
(14:08):
like that, to come out and saysomething of that nature.
So yeah, lots of really goodstuff happening there.
It won't feel good right now,but it is good, you know?
And you know, like sometimes.
Gifts come wrapped in reallystrange packages.
And you know, that felt, youknow, that kind of day one, the
detox, you know, that rockbottom experience gonna work.
(14:29):
Having drunk a bottle of liquor,you know, there potentially, you
know, guarantees a lot of, it'lldepend on what he does from now
on, but like, potentiallythat'll be one of the best days
of his life.
'cause it'll be the day thateverything changes.
So that's kind of first thoughtsand then.
I mean, there's more to say.
I can say more than that, butwhat, you know, what do you,
what do you, what do you make ofwhat I've just said?
(14:50):
What, what do you think aboutthat?
I totally agree.
Um, the guy is, is he's showinghow strong he is on that day.
And, and then you just mentionedwalking into the meetings.
Mm-hmm.
And you might know, or you mightnot know this was the thing that
was surprising.
Uh, as you know, my, my brotherand sister were both.
(15:13):
Alcoholics and, uh, my wifewould take my brother to the,
you know, he couldn't drive, soshe would take him to the AA
meetings and she said, when youwalked in, she said, walked in.
She said it was packed.
And she said, I knew people,there were doctors, there were
(15:33):
prominent people in town.
There was every walk of life.
That was in there.
He said, you would just besurprised.
So he may feel lonely and likeyou're the only one doing this.
But there are far, far morepeople that are going through
this than you realize.
I remember when I was, um, Imentioned it in my book when I
was 16 and I got a DUI, I wentto a, a May SAP meeting called
(15:57):
Mississippi Alcohol SafetyAwareness Program to get my
driver's license back and.
I joke about how me and afriend, we, matter of fact, it
was after a college footballgame.
I decided that, you know, that Iwould try to go through about
eight red lights down the mainstreet and I go into this
meeting.
We look in the back of the roomand we see a lot of our friends'
(16:18):
parents, and these are prominentpeople in town.
These are doctors, but you know,not just the doctors are
prominent, but that's, uh, allwalks of life that were in those
meetings.
So this guy and anybody that'slistening and going through this
or has family members, it's amuch bigger club than you think
(16:38):
it is.
Oh, 100%.
Like, you gotta recognize,right?
Like, it's like addiction doesnot discriminate.
You know?
Like I've worked with people,you know, professionally and,
you know, sponsored people in 12step programs and stuff like
that that have, you know, theirtrainers have their sneakers, so
have been worth more than mycar, you know?
And I've worked with people thatlike, literally had like
(17:01):
nothing, you know, that werelike low bottom, you know, like
street level drug addicts, youknow?
And, but like addiction doesn'tdiscriminate.
It might look a bit.
Different in some cases, but itdoesn't discriminate.
So yeah, you'll have the fullspectrum of society in there.
There's a meeting in, uh, inEast London.
And, um, it's a reallyinteresting meeting.
Where it sits is it sort of sitson the cusp of, um, of the
(17:25):
financial district, right?
Which, you know, you are WallStreet, right?
It sits on the cusp of thefinancial district, but then a
load of, um, you know, muchpoorer, like infinitely poorer
areas.
So you are going in that meetingand you might be sat next to a
hedge fund manager.
On one side and on the otherside you'll have like a, a guy
(17:46):
who's, who's come out of, wecall them mistakes.
You would call them housingprojects.
Yeah.
Um, and you, you know, andeveryone in between, you know,
so it's, yeah, like that point'sso important to remember.
It's like addiction doesn'tdiscriminate.
Um, yeah.
That it is, you know, likeprominent people, not so
prominent people.
Everyone in between then,without a doubt.
(18:10):
You, you went through the 12.
'cause I know people that havegone through the 12 step
program, uh, and people, uh,very successfully.
It seems to be one of the most,you know, successful paths out
there.
You went.
That's what you started off, youknow,'cause we're kind of, we're
a faith-based podcast, but youstarted off in the 12 step
(18:30):
program.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, that really is whatbrought me to Faith, right?
Because you go in there andthere's, there's an emphasis,
you know, a significant emphasison a higher power, right?
So what that guy.
That's, that's not, that's inthe 12 step program.
In any 12 step program.
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%.
It's, it's like built in.
(18:50):
So the roots of the 12 stepprogram are that, you know,
started in 1936 by Bill Wilsonand Dr.
Bob Smith.
They were both like heavyweightChristians, you know, so I've
been to Bob's house in Quan,Ohio and like they, you know,
they've set it up kind of as itwas when he lived there in like
the thirties and through untilthe forties I think their house
(19:10):
was in the.
Family's possession until thefifties, if I remember the
history right.
So like you can see where BobSmith sat reading, you know,
like reading his Bible, youknow, he was insomniac reading
his Bible reading books like theVarieties of Spiritual
Experience, right?
So it had very Christian roots.
Um.
How it's been translated overthe years is that that has
(19:32):
broadened out to accept kind ofall faiths and none.
And you know, I think that kindof open access is really
important.
But for me, the journey wasthrough working the 12 steps and
kind of coming to believe in thepresence of the higher part in
that higher power's ability tohelp me grow and change and
heal.
That was what led me to thechurch, you know, after some
(19:53):
years so.
Yeah, there's a heavy emphasison that stuff.
I mean, I worked through thesteps really.
Step one.
You know, it is, we admit, wewere powerless over alcohol and
our lives have becomeunmanageable.
It's odd.
It's a funny paradox, pat, butlike in that admission of
powerlessness, you know, thatadmission of defeat, which I
(20:15):
hear in your guys' post, and ifyou are listening, like I really
want to just applaud you andaffirm you and encourage you and
tell you like there is a wayout.
It can get better.
It did for me.
Um.
But that post is an admission ofpowerlessness.
Yeah.
That post is a, like, I can't dothis.
Yeah.
Like, this has got me licked.
Yeah.
Like, you know, under my ownpower, you know, left to my own
(20:38):
devices, relying on my ownthinking, decision making,
thinking and decision making.
I'm drinking a bottle of liquorbefore I go to work, getting
driven home by a coworker andtelling my boss that he needs to
fire me.
You know, that's where my bestthinking gets me.
So there's an admission ofpowerlessness in that.
And the paradox that I mentionedis, is when you admit your
powerless, you open the door.
(21:00):
To the possibility of findingsome power, but until you've
admitted you haven't got any,it's very difficult to go
looking for any, you know, sothat's, you know, that's kind of
the, the first step.
And look, I mean, look, yourguy, like, I'd say look, go to a
lot of meetings.
Yeah.
Go to a lot of meetings.
Meeting makers.
Make it, yeah.
Get a sponsor.
Work the 12 steps, you know,it's the 12 steps that.
(21:24):
You know, it's be, you know,you, I mean that's like, it's
not even a podcast.
It's like a, several bookscould, you know, you could write
about the people's experiencesthey have and stuff like that,
but it's like, you know, likesum up very simply.
It's like trust god, cleanhouse, help others, you I in,
you realize you're beaten.
Develop a relationship with somekind of higher power and just
(21:45):
even like the fledgling, justthe little kind of embers of a
belief that this thing can helpme.
And the cleaning house is like,you're going through the, going
through a, a process of like,you kind of clear out all of
the, the guilt, the shame, theremorse.
You acknowledge the hurts thatyou've perpetrated to people.
(22:05):
You look at what you've done tothem.
You look at what you've allowedpeople to do to you, you know,
you really take responsibilityfor.
SHIT that you, you know, thatyou've kind, you've done and you
know what elder that kind ofdarkness and muck that you're
carrying, you know, in change,you make some restitution, you
know, that's cleaning house andthen helping others is right.
(22:27):
Kind of carrying the message toother people that it's possible
to do so.
Right.
And that it's different ways todo that, but it's like,
essentially it's like.
It's like what we're charged todo in the great commission.
Yeah.
Like we get saved right throughour faith.
Right.
We get washed clean, we getforgiven.
Somewhere in that maybe we learnto forgive ourselves.
Alright.
(22:48):
But in a great commission tellsus that we go out and we carry
that message to other people,you know, that we try and create
disciples, you know, so it'svery Christian based.
If you've got a faith, your guymentions prayers at the end of
his, um, at the end of his post.
So that suggests that he has afaith, which is a huge asset.
It's not essential when you walkthrough the doors.
It's a huge asset.
You might mention that.
(23:08):
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's, um, yeah,that's, that's, that's, yeah.
That's.
Yeah, lemme ask you this, that,that I've wondered one, uh, I'm,
you know, when you're talkingabout faith and addiction, you
know, it used to be in thechurch, they would say, you
know.
Put your faith in Jesus and getover this and stop calling
addiction disease, whatever.
(23:29):
I, it doesn't matter what youdisease, you can't control
yourself.
It, you know, I've heard apastor that I respect and I love
this guy's past now, but, butyou know, he, he, uh, he gave a
sermon on the, the.
Oh, you know, now they go totherapy.
They call it a day.
Well, I couldn't, I, I totallydisagree with him on that
particular point.
That was the old schoolthinking.
(23:51):
It's something you can'tcontrol.
And like you said, this guy andwhat you did 13 years ago, you
admitted you had a problem.
And then that's where yourstrength come, comes from in, in
that point.
Um.
Do you think, because I alwayswonder, you know, both of us
overcame all about the stuff,you know, the drugs and all the
(24:13):
crime and all the stuff we didat, at younger ages.
I wasn't really physicallyaddicted.
I was just a miserable, I, youknow, hopeless person.
I, I, you know, all the troubleand everything I got into, I was
emotionally attached to drugs.
And so when I started followingGod, things started really
changing.
I didn't have that, that.
Desire there.
(24:34):
Do you think it traces back towhen you're young or is it, it
is just like this is justsomething in your body.
You drink alcohol, you can't, doyou see what I'm saying?
I always try to trace back a lotof the trouble I got into to, to
what caused me to feel that way.
It doesn't seem like there'sreally a causal.
In alcoholic, it just seems likesome people can handle it and
(24:55):
some people can't.
Do you get what I'm saying?
It doesn't necessarily mean thisguy has a tough childhood or all
the other alcoholic.
Matter of fact, one of the mostsuccessful guys in the town that
I live in, uh, this guy gave upalcohol at 23, 24 years old, is
one of the most successfulbusinessmen at times.
He still goes to AA meetings, Ithink.
I think once a week.
Matter of fact, he posts whathe, his what he, his whole story
(25:18):
about once a year, six months ayear on social media and puts
his phone number on there forpeople, for people to call.
So he didn't have some deepseated, you know, type miserable
trauma growing up.
I mean, he had lost his fatherat a young age.
But I'm just wondering is, is,do, do most people have that or
is it something like, alcohol isjust like drugs, you just, it's
(25:39):
a.
You see where I'm going?
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's different schools ofthought, right?
And I think it is different fordifferent people, right?
Definitely.
For some people there's thatkind of trauma basis.
Lying underneath it, you know,the drugs, the alcohol becomes a
way to medicate those kind ofdeeper.
Wounds, pains, sadnesses forsure.
The other thing that is reallyimportant to bear in mind is
(26:01):
like essentially drinkingalcohol is pleasurable, right?
Like people have been kind ofgetting high or getting drunk or
getting stoned in different waysfor thousands of years, right?
We're as creatures, we aredesigned to move towards things
that are ple.
Right.
But the problem is with thingslike alcohol, cocaine, heroin,
you know, all sort of substanceswhich can become problematic and
(26:23):
misused, right?
Like is that they, theyradically alter.
Over well over time, sometimesnot over time, sometimes very
quickly, but they radicallyalter the brain chemistry.
So you can come dependent and,you know, end up with a habit
forming around that substancethat can, that can happen very
quickly.
Right?
So.
(26:44):
Look for some people, I thinkit's, yes, there's like, there's
definitely pain in thebackground, which is being
medicated for other people.
No, there isn't.
There is, you know, ourarguments and lots of research
and debate about the geneticbasis of alcoholism or
addiction, right?
But more importantly, like for,you know, and kind of bringing
(27:04):
it back to your man, right?
Like, it's like, actually noneof that really matters right
now.
You know, none of that.
None of that really matters,right?
What matters is what he doesabout it.
So I liken it like this.
Pat Rod, I'm explain this to, tothe people I work with quite
often.
Right.
It's like if you are in a house,right?
If you are on the top floor of ahouse and that house is on fire,
yeah.
(27:25):
What you do not need to do isfigure out how the fire started.
Yeah.
You need to get out.
Yeah.
Like you need to get out of thehouse sitting there thinking
about how this fire broke.
I wonder if it broke out in thekitchen.
Maybe it was'cause I left thestove on.
It could be.
Or actually did so and so likediscard a lit cigarette into the
(27:47):
bin.
They thought it was out, butthat's caused the binge.
No one cares.
Do you know what I mean?
You definitely shouldn't care.
What you need is to get out.
You need, and you, you need somehelp to get out.
Right.
And then once you're out and thefile's been put out, maybe you
know, maybe you go and look inthe embers and you do the
investigation and you try andfigure out what happened.
Some people do, some peopledon't.
(28:08):
Some people need to, some peopledon't.
You know, I think there'sbroadly three, three types of
people.
Aa, whatever, whatever, a right.
There's broadly three types ofpeople.
There's people that can come in,they can work through the steps
and everything's, they're gonnabe okay.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, fine, they're gonna live anice happy life.
They'll be healed, you know,like the, um, the alcoholism,
(28:29):
the active, um, symptoms ofalcoholism will be removed,
right?
They'll live a nice happy life.
They'll be fine.
Do you know what I mean?
Then there's another type ofperson.
They're gonna work through thesteps, but because of that
underlying kind of woundingtrauma, whatever you wanna call
that, they're gonna need to dosome other stuff.
They're gonna need to dig intoit.
They're gonna need to find outwhat's underneath that,
(28:50):
otherwise they're not gonna staysober.
Right.
And then you get peoplesomewhere in the middle.
Like they'll probably stay soberif they work the steps, but they
might need a bit of help as wellif they're really gonna be able
to enjoy their lives.
Do you know what I mean?
Figuring out what, which one ofthose types of people you are,
that comes later.
You know?
Right now you need to be sober.
If I'm working with someonethat's new, like brand new
through the door in the samescenario that's been outlined in
(29:13):
that post, like I'm not lookingto find out why.
For a while.
You know, what I wanna do ishelp them to figure out what
they're gonna do about it.
Be that go to meetings, be thatgoing to rehab, whatever it
needs to be, do what you need todo to get sober.
The rest of it you can figureout.
Leo, one other question.
(29:33):
Do you do, and I don't know howto phrase this, do you focus,
you know, there, there arepeople that, that think, you
know, you have family, you havechil, you know, you do, you
focus on.
I gotta do this for them, or isit, I gotta do this for me?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, great question, pat.
So look, the, the, um, the ageold wisdom has been, and you
(29:59):
will hear this said many timesif you know, particularly if you
spend time around AA or whatevergroup, right?
Is that if you're not doing itfor yourself, it's not gonna
work.
Right, right now, that's what Ithought I would.
I, I have a slightly differenttake on that, right?
So most people.
Or a significant proportion ofpeople walking through the doors
of a 12 step meeting.
(30:20):
They're not, they're probablynot in a place where they're
like, oh, you know what?
Like, I really believe that I'mworth more, you know?
I really believe on a deep feltlevel that I'm better than this.
Yeah.
And like, because I've.
Believe and back myself so much,I wanna make this change for me.
You know what I mean?
I don't think that's most peoplewhen they walk through those
doors, what pushes peoplethrough those doors of a meeting
(30:43):
or a clinic or a rehab center,what, you know, whatever it
might be.
What pushes people through thosedoors will often be
consequences.
You know, loss of something,job, family.
Yeah.
Like, and the desire to avoidthose consequences.
Right.
It may Well, but this guy's onthe verge of it.
Yeah.
It may well be that family.
(31:05):
You know, it's like there's beenan ultimatum.
You don't, you need to go andget well or else.dot do
whatever.
Gets people through the doors.
Gets people through the doors.
Yeah.
But like once you were there.
So hopefully through the wholeand the love that you'll
experience there, you will startto shift and think.
Actually, you know what, like I,I want this, I heard a story
(31:26):
once.
Um, I heard it on a, a recorded,um.
Yeah, it's what called a share,someone telling their story.
But, uh, many years ago it wason a cd, you know, back when,
you know, so there would beshare CDs that would be kind of
handed round and, you know,copied and stuff like that.
And it was a lady from LA andshe was a, she was a crack
addict, right?
(31:47):
And she got sentenced to do 90meetings in 90 days, which you
guys do over there, whichhasn't, sadly, hasn't really
caught on over here.
But you find it some places, butit hasn't really caught on over
here.
Anyway, her story was until day89.
Yeah.
Until day 89.
She sat in these meetings andshe hated being there, man.
She was like, I just can't waitto get out.
(32:07):
Yeah.
Get my thing, you know, get myfinal meeting shit signed.
Yeah.
Like court slip, right.
Get out from under this kind ofstipulation, and then I'm going
back out and then I'm gonna hitthat pipe.
Right?
And, and she said on day 90 shesat in that meeting and she
looked around and she thought,you know what?
Really emotional.
(32:29):
So you said, you know what, whatthese people in here have got
going on looks a lot better thanwhat I've got going on out
there, and I think I'm gonnastick around.
So I think it's whatever getsyou through the door.
Pat, your advice to this guy andanybody listening and anybody
starting going through this.
Is to get up, get to thosemeetings., It seems like when
(32:51):
I've had trouble way back in mylife, it was like, WW win today.
You know, just win today, do itright.
Today, go one and oh two and ohthree and oh four, and oh, if
you have a fall, jump back upand get a streak of winning
again.
Is it your, so your focus is getinto the meetings, reach out,
get as much help.
What would your final thing tosay to this guy?
(33:12):
That is Right.
It's like levels of care.
It's like if you go to theemergency room, you know what we
call a accident and emergency.
Right.
They're gonna triage you.
Yeah.
They're gonna work out whetheryou need some bandages.
Yeah.
Whether you need a doctor tolook at you and, and kind of do
some medication or whether youneed to be admitted.
Yeah.
And go up to the fourth floorand get some treatment.
Right.
(33:33):
Go to meetings, reach out, makefriends, build a support
network.
Get a sponsor.
Work the steps.
Do all of those things.
Yeah.
If that doesn't work, get a, getsome professionals involved.
You know, if you've gotinsurance, use that, whatever
you need to do.
Yeah.
But like, you might wanna get acounselor, you might need to go
to rehab.
(33:54):
But the starting point is like,just get to those meetings.
Do all the things they tell youto do.
If that doesn't work,reevaluate, you might need more
help.
But right now it's getting tothose meetings.
Well that's good advice.
Uh.
This guy can overcome anybodylistening, anybody that has
(34:14):
family, friends that are goingthrough this, uh, they can all
overcome.
And the seriousness of this, Icertainly know because my older
brother and my younger sisterboth drank themselves to death.
Oh, pop.
They literally drank themselvesto death.
(34:35):
I'm sorry, ma'am.
I don't, uh, that that's, youknow, that's okay.
It's down, you know, it's, it's,it, you know, watered down.
They, um, the thing is theconsequences are high.
I don't, I don't know any75-year-old alcoholics, you,
you, you win it or, or it beatsyou.
(34:56):
So I think, uh, what you'resaying is whatever you have to
do.
Get up there and win that dayand do it.
And then the joy to bring itback to the overcoming.
I You were one of that.
I was just commenting when westarted the day, the house, the
big smile on your face.
You're getting married, uh, inthe few, I hope I'm not letting
the cat out of the bag, but you13 years sober, right?
(35:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
No, I mean.
And it's not been, you know,it's not been easy, but it's
been great, you know?
Right.
It's, you know, I, I'm one ofthose people, I needed extra
help.
You know, I, I carried a lot ofpain into recovery, you know,
into my sobriety, um, right.
That caused me, uh, somedifficulties as you know, but,
but, um, but ultimately it ledme to Jesus.
(35:43):
Right.
That's a huge thing.
You know, all of that stuff ledme to, led me to Jesus.
Yeah.
And, and, and that was where.
The magic, probably not the bestchoice of words, but that's
where it really.
Really started to happen, butlike in the meantime, before
that, even in the midst of, youknow, some difficulties and
stuff, like for me to not usedrugs, right?
(36:03):
This is, I use drugs every dayfrom the age of 14 onwards,
maybe 13.
Definitely by the time I was 14I was using something.
I was getting high on somethingevery single day.
Alcohol was a huge part of mystory.
But then everything else aswell, cocaine, crack, cocaine,
heroin, cannabis, you know,marijuana, whatever you wanna
call it.
For me to have that obsession.
(36:24):
Murder of succession to use anddrink removed was nothing short
of a miracle.
I traveled the world.
I built a great career.
I made lots of friends.
You know, I, I've, you know, Ihad no one, you know, I had no
one left in my life.
No one cared.
Well, people cared, but theywere so hurt, you know, that
they'd retreated.
I, you know, angered people,stolen from people, robbed my
(36:45):
parents' peace of mind, youknow?
So then to be able to build alife, you know, where she's, you
know, I have.
Safety, security, a roof over myhead.
Love, you know, friendships, youknow, like choices.
You know, I'm not, look, I'm notwaiting for the door to come
through with like the police ordrug dealers.
I owe money to, you know, I'mnot waiting, you know, like,
(37:06):
it's not how I live today.
Yeah.
So, yeah, the joy, you know,the, the transformation is
remarkable, you know, and yeah.
I'm praying for your guy, man.
I'm praying for him.
Yeah.
I'm praying for him too.
My wife is praying for him, andI know people hear, oh, thoughts
and prayers.
I promise you.
Praying for people even that youdon't know make a difference.
(37:29):
There was a thing in my book Imentioned the day I walked down
that street when it was rainingand I ran into this guy.
I'm coming back, actually, I'mcoming back from college
football game and I've run outtagas.
There's a guy standing on theside of the road and asked me
how I'm doing and who I am.
We talked for a second.
He says, well, I know who youare.
He says, we've been praying foryou.
There were people in this housethat had heard my name, and I
(37:51):
have no doubt that that had alot to do with the miracle that
happened in my life.
So, uh, to our guy that we'retalking about.
Uh, we are praying for him.
My wife's praying for him.
Other people do, he can do thisand he can overcome.
So I appreciate you sharingthat.
And, uh, before we go Rich, um,speaking of overcoming, I want
(38:13):
to tell you an amazing story.
Um.
About overcoming on the intro.
You listen to the intro and theoutro music to our podcast.
Yeah.
You hear the cool funk, jazzfusion that comes in there.
Well, there's an amazing storybehind that.
The guy playing that is a guynamed Michael Abernathy and he
(38:35):
has a band called Abernathy andyou can find his music anywhere.
Uh, that's out there.
He is got several other songs.
Really talented guy.
And let me share his story withyou.
February 23rd, 2004.
He's 34 years old.
He has, he's married for, Idon't know how long he'd been
(38:57):
married, but he just, he was,had a two week old son.
He is an accomplished musicianby night.
He's worked with some big nameguys, big name folks, and he is
working construction during theday, and he's up in the roofs
about a three story house in oneof the more prestigious
neighborhoods in my hometown ofHattiesburg, Mississippi.
(39:19):
He falls through that roof 30feet onto his head.
They don't think he's going tomake it, but they rush him to
the emergency room.
They do an emergency craniotomyon him.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingthat right.
His head was like twice the sizeof normal, but the doctor's
(39:39):
thinking he, he shouldn't live.
He's got a vein gushing blood,so they can't work on it.
You can't work when there'sblood gushing in, his vein.
And he died.
During the surgery, but when hedied, the blood stopped gushing,
(40:01):
so the doctor was able to sewthe vein back up, but he was
dead.
He flatlined.
So they brought him back to lifeand they, they, you know,
whatever the shock, somehow theyshocked him back to life.
And the doctor said no one hadever flatlined, no one had ever
died and come back to life, um,with him like that.
(40:25):
But he has this and the severebrain injury.
And he can't function.
He's good chance.
He's going to be an invalid forthe rest of his life.
And, uh, he comes out of thehospital, he does have a wife,
but he's needing round the clockcare.
Probably gonna need that roundthe clock care for the rest of
(40:46):
his life.
But he's having trouble.
He needs help.
He has a walker or wheelchair.
He's having episodes where hehas to go to the emergency room
and one day his wife takes him.
To the emergency room, and he'ssitting in a wheelchair and he
had gone through like ninemonths of his life just
disappeared From the time he hadthat accident.
(41:07):
He didn't remember anything fornine months.
It just all of a sudden picksback up.
Remember 2-year-old kid, uh,that he was not able to, to, you
know, play with or, or enjoy or,or be with, but he, his wife
takes him to the ho to theemergency room.
And he sees his wife down thehallway gesturing wildly with
(41:30):
the doctors or, or the nurses.
And that's all he remembers.
He sees that and then he seeshis wife turn and walk away, and
that's the last he saw her.
She just walked out and left.
He's in the hospital and he'ssitting there.
He has no phone.
Uh.
He has no money.
He has nowhere to go, nobody totake care of him.
(41:53):
And so they stabilize him andtake him to the local, um,
salvation Army.
And so he's at the SalvationArmy.
And, you know, that's a homelessshelter.
Mm-hmm.
We have that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, uh, it's basicallybasically a homeless shelter and
they, um.
(42:15):
They flew him, you know, from,from the homeless shelter.
They, uh, his brother, I thinkfound out and came and got him
and then flew him out toCalifornia's brother, I think,
lived in Seattle, Washington,flew him out to California and
he's staying with hisstepfather, so he takes him to
stay with his stepfather.
His mother died at the age of21.
(42:37):
He's already had.
A bit of a tough go of it.
Oh, and he had already overcomedrug addiction himself.
He had had a bad cocaineproblem.
He had already overcome a lot inlife, but he's doing well at
this point when he has this,when he has this brain with this
massive traumatic brain injury.
But he's left in this homeless,basically homeless shelter.
(43:00):
His brother flies him, flies himout to stay with his stepfather.
Well, his stepfather has thisevil stepmother who's a meth
head when the stepfather's notaround.
She's giving him a hard time.
She doesn't like him.
She doesn't want him in thehouse.
He caught her doing meth.
He saw her doing meth and sheknew it, and she wanted him out
of the house, so they put himinto a care home in California.
(43:23):
Well, some of these care homes.
They, they can call'em a carehome all they want, but what
they are is they're there tosuck money outta people and
they're there there to suckworkman's comp and government
money out of them.
Because he said he spent 14years in this care home in
California, and he said it was14 years of living hell.
(43:45):
He said they were pumping himfull of drugs.
They had no intention of.
You know, of trying to, to rehabhim or trying to help him out.
He's stuck in this, in thishome.
Uh, he's using a walker.
He can't hardly walk.
They pump him full of drugs.
He's fighting the drugs.
Remember, this guy's a drugaddict from the past.
(44:07):
You know, he overcame that.
He doesn't need to be pumpedfull of drugs, but he's
fighting.
And he's still fighting thedrugs and he's still thinking,
you know, I can beat this.
He, he knows he has this twoweek old son and he keeps
thinking, I've gotta somehow getout of this.
I've gotta somehow get throughthis so I can see my son again.
He said that was the, to be afather that he could be proud
(44:30):
of.
But 14 years in aninstitutionalized home, when on
the inside of your mind, you'restill functioning.
You know, you just know that youneed some help, but they're not
helping him.
He starts taking classes.
Um, he gets a bass, so he'splaying bass.
But you know, 14 years is a longtime.
Lot of Christmases, lot ofsummers, lot of falls that are
(44:52):
passing.
So he starts taking, you know,classes and he is trying to
help, but he's still on awalker.
He's still being left.
He, they're just give, they'vegiven up on him, they've
institutionalized him, and ithappens all over the place.
I don't know if it happens inEngland, but it happens in
America.
If there's money coming in, theybenefit from you being in that
bed and in that room graduate.
(45:14):
And putting you back on yourlife.
But there is one woman in there,one nurse that sees the
progress, that sees the lightinside of his eyes, that sees
the hope, and she helps him comeback closer to Mississippi where
his son is.
So they move him to Covington,um, Louisiana.
So in Covington, Louisiana, theydo start helping him.
(45:40):
They do start trying to rehabhim.
They thought, that they couldhelp.
They said this was, uh, youknow, it was a place where they
were really trying to.
Trying to get him better and hestarts getting better and he
starts helping.
He starts teaching classes inthe place.
So he's now starting to comeout.
He's still in, in a wheelchair,and he's there for about four
(46:03):
years.
But remember, he has no control.
He can't leave.
He's still ward.
I mean, he's wherever.
People are gonna put him, and hehas nowhere to go.
Wife just left him in theemergency room.
So he starts teaching classesand he starts making a
difference in people's lives.
He starts telling the guy in thewheelchair where your arms work,
you know, where he, but he's anencourager.
(46:24):
So he starts doing this, andthen he gets to the point where
the place in Covington says.
We think you can maybe go to agraduate out to another facility
because you're making progress.
Well, that actually turned outto be a dark moment because they
sent him to a place in Ponchowhere they kind of put you up in
an apartment, but you can'tleave it.
(46:46):
You're, they've got cameras onyou and you know, your workman's
comp still paying the money.
And there was a woman thererunning the place that, uh.
Zero, rehab zero or anything,not trying to help this guy at
all.
And she's fighting to keep himthere and he's wanting to get
(47:07):
out and she's just, she, matterof fact, she's taunting him
talking about you can't, youknow, you're not gonna believe
you.
Oh, you did this and you didthat, but you're still here.
And, and so now he's back goingthrough hell and he can't.
Get out of this place, and he'sat this place for several more
years, but he's still fightingand he's still believing that he
(47:27):
can get out of this.
So one day he he contacts anattorney and he finds out he
doesn't really have a guardian.
He doesn't really have anybodythat's put him there.
They've just, these facilitieshave just made decisions and the
healthcare professionals havejust moved him to each facility
and then on to the nextfacility.
So he hires an attorney and theattorney comes back and says,
(47:50):
you know, you have no guardian.
And the attorney starts working,starts filing papers, and the
attorney picks up the phone,calls him one day and says, it's
over.
Pack your stuff.
He said, I'm coming for you.
And the guy said, there's.
Two of the greatest days in hislife was the one when his child
was born.
(48:10):
The second one, when the guycalled and said, it's over.
I'm coming to get you.
That was a year and a half ago.
The guy's in a walker, he canbarely, you know, he can still
take him 10 minutes to getacross the parking lot.
That guy goes and gets him,brings him up to Hattiesburg, my
hometown, where I met him abouta year and a half ago when I met
him.
(48:31):
He walked with a walker, hecouldn't walk.
You could tell his speech wasimpaired.
Six months later, this dude isout walking the golf course,
playing nine holes of golf,dragging his bag.
He's playing the bass again.
He's functioning on his own.
(48:51):
He's put together a band andhe's playing this music, and I
start hearing this music.
I don't know who it is.
I'm like, well, who is that?
That That's me.
That's you with this cool jazzfunk fusion.
That we're listening to.
Yeah, that's me.
It's six months later, he'simproving more and more Now he's
got his band, he's got his lifeback.
(49:13):
He's back talking to his kid.
They left him for dead and theyleft him as an invalid, and this
guy is functioning so well thatI was gonna mention his story
because he was kind enough togive us this.
This music for free to listento.
I call the dude up just to makesure that I get the story
straight, but he has to call meback an hour LA and a half later
(49:34):
because he's outside in ahundred degree Mississippi Heat
doing, mowing his yard andweeding his yard amazing.
Is amazing and overcoming.
So that's, uh.
Yeah, that's great.
It's amazing, amazing story, youknow, and sad, you know, a lot
(49:55):
of loss in their damningindictment of the care system.
And yeah, we have the same, thesame kind of stuff happens in,
in our care homes.
Same kind of stuff happens inaddiction treatment sometimes.
You know, I think there's badactors in every industry, and
when people are vulnerable,sometimes they can get
exploited.
So, um, if you're not gettingthe care you need, um, remember
(50:16):
you've always got.
You've always got options.
Thankfully, in the end, he foundsomeone that could help him
understand what he's were.
So that's amazing.
Thanks Pat for sharing that.
Well, and the key is, as he saidto me, never give up, never
quit.
He said, I knew the day I gaveup is the day I lost.
That's the same message that wehave for our friend from the
(50:36):
sports message board that I'mtalking about, and the same
message that we have foreverybody else.
Absolutely.
Never give up.
Never quit.
And, uh, when you're, when weend this today, if whoever's
listening, if you take about 20seconds and listen to the outro
music.
It's called 15 minutes tonight.
(50:58):
There's about a 22nd clip.
And just remember, you're notjust listening to some really
cool jazz funk fusion.
You're listening to the sound ofvictory and the sound of not
giving up and the sound ofovercoming, and that's.
Michael Abernathy and you canfind him, uh, the band Abernathy
(51:19):
on any of the music.
And congratulations, Michael.
Way to go, dude.
Uh, rich.
Good to see you, man.
We'll talk again next week.
Thank you.
Next week, pat.
God bless you man, and God blessto everyone's listening.
Alright.
Alright, take care buddy.
Take care.
Bye.
Good morning, rich.
Good afternoon, pat.
So where you at today?
You in Oxford or London or SouthEnd by the sea or London today?
Yeah, north London.
London.
Today.
Y'all have such cool names overin England because one of the
neat things about.
Doing this is, I get to see, itshows all the cities and the
(00:45):
countries that we're in and youknow, we're in like five
different countries and, uh, youknow, we're in like five cities
in Japan.
We've got people listening or,or you got friends in Japan?
No, I have no friends in Japan.
So that's kind of amazing.
Really.
It's made its way over there.
I thought so, because I don'thave any friends.
I mean, I got friends around theworld, but I don't have friends
(01:06):
in Japan.
I mean, I've done comedy inother countries, but I've never,
you know, I've never done thecheap trick, live at Budokon.
I, I don't, I don't think that,I don't, I don't think the young
girls would show up for that.
I, I think the name of the albumwould be Pat Mcco, you know,
live in an empty theater talkingto himself.
Yeah.
'cause nobody likes you overhere.
(01:27):
So that was, but they, inEngland, I'm noticing all these
really cool names, like, uh, uh,Newcastle upon Ty.
Yep.
And you know, it is like y'allname, the, the, you, you name
the cities and then youmentioned the river that they're
on.
Yeah, so that would of often belike such and such upon Thas or
(01:51):
you know, a lot often littletowns have that kind of name I
guess.
'cause obviously you stole a lotof our names.
Um, but I guess if you, Isuppose it was necessary to
knock a few syllables off there.
'cause obviously you were much,you know, you're different kind
of people, you know that manysyllables might.
You know, it might confuse you,I'm guessing.
I see that.
(02:11):
Yeah.
That's where you gotShakespeare.
Stratford upon Avon.
I never understood that becauseI thought it was cool.
I was thinking of there, thetown that I live by that I'm
from has two rivers running byit and I kept saying these cool
names.
I was thinking of going to talkto the mayor and seeing if we
couldn't get a petition, youknow, we could be hattiesburg
upon leaf.
Kind of stand, well, weshouldn't do that.
(02:32):
Right.
It's just, it's nah, it's just,it's just, I think you stay in
your lane.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying,isn't it?
Stay in your lane.
Okay, well, well, speaking ofour lane, that's what brings me.
We're gonna, uh, we, we weregonna talk about the difference
between, uh, church and the USAand church in England.
And, and, and when you and Istarted going to church the
(02:53):
first time, which was actually,uh, kind of humorous, but I had
a, a little bit of an encounterthat, uh, we're gonna change the
subject and I appreciate youhumoring me there and.
Speaking of Lane, it has to dowith, uh, like college football.
We, uh, are you do, are youfamiliar with college football
(03:14):
in, in the United States?
Yes.
Yeah, no, it's different how itis here.
Here.
Like college sports are just notreally like a big thing.
Whereas I know for you guys it'stelevised and I think ut uh, I
believe the college footballstadium is a hundred thousand
people.
I.
Yeah, which is bigger.
That's bigger than our nationalstadium.
(03:34):
Wembley.
Yes.
So, yeah.
And it's not just ut, there'stwo uts actually that have a
hundred thousand plus stadiumsand Yeah.
That's crazy.
And Alabama has had had ahundred and I mean, it's in Penn
State, there's a lot of stadiumsthat have a hundred thousand
people because, um.
It's in, in the US it's a bigcollege is a big deal.
(03:56):
Mm-hmm.
'cause what we do is it's, it'seither where we went to school,
it's, uh, or we grew up liking'em.
We didn't really have to go toschool.
It could be something you did asa kid with your, your dad.
It's just, it's a big deal tous.
'cause we have these 18,23-year-old kids that.
You go out and play the otherschool's, 18 and 23-year-old
(04:16):
kids, and if our 18 to23-year-old kids be theirs, it
shows our superiority to thatperson just in life in general.
Does that, does that make sense?
Yeah.
But we have the idea ofcompetitive sports, like so that
bit makes, makes sense.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But we, yeah.
Yeah, but we take it, we take itpersonally.
You see, it's kind of adefining, it's the self-esteem
(04:39):
thing.
I know in, like in England youdon't, you have football, but
it's like F-U-T-B-O-L or youknow, soccer.
Yeah.
So we have football.
It's spel the same.
Um, I think what you arethinking of is table football,
but, uh, we, we, so we spell itthe same, but it's like with a,
it's it's proper football, youknow?
As opposed to obviously what youdo is, um.
(05:01):
Some, a kind of weird hodgepodgeof like rugby and some kind of
sport where you require a lot ofpadding so you don't get hurt
and Yeah.
Different.
Well, it's'cause what I've seenof English football with soccer,
you know, we call it here.
Yeah.
Football.
And you have huge stadiums overthere and it looks like you've
(05:22):
got a bunch of guys that.
Get out on the field and youcall it a pitch for some reason
it's a field pitch.
Yeah.
So they go out on the pitch,they run around for a few hours,
the fans get drunk and sing, youknow, you know the whole time.
And then eventually the objectof the game is to put the ball
(05:42):
on the net.
Eventually the ball will go onthe net and the announcer's
like, shocking kick Nigel.
And that's it.
You know, like, man, Unitedbeats leads one to nothing
riveting.
That's, yeah, I mean, yeah, Imean, yeah, there's a bit of
that, but, um, I mean, it isdifferent.
(06:04):
Like when I was in America a fewtimes ago, like it was Super
Bowl weekend and I thought, oh,I'll sit down and watch the
Super Bowl.
It just seemed to be like areally long ad break with like
very short bits of some kind ofsport sprinkled in occasionally.
It's a little bit about themoney, but college football is
(06:26):
as big as pro football to a lot,you know, to a lot of us.
'cause like I said, a lot of itgot, you tend to be a pro fan if
you live near the bigger cities,urban areas or that type of
thing.
College football is ingrained inyou.
It's like if you're in a stateand you got two different teams
in that state and your neighboror your friend goes to that
other school and you go to thisschool, well, it's very
(06:48):
important that your 18 to23-year-old kids beat the 18 to
23-year-old kids from thatschool because that will pretty
much affirm that you've madebetter life choices.
Do you see?
Yeah, it's, I mean, it reallymakes sense now how you guys,
you know, especially at themoment, lead the world in like
diplomacy.
(07:10):
That's it.
Well, speaking of diplomas, Ididn't get a diploma from the
school that I went to, uh,although I do think I hold the
record for enrolling the mosttimes and making the least
amount of progress.
So I think I'm recognized overthere some somewhere, but, and
my team went one in 11 lastyear.
So my self esteem's lacking alittle bit, but we tee it back
(07:32):
up in about three weeks.
But the reason I'm mentioningcollege football is there is a,
uh, it's such a big deal overhere.
We have these message boardsthat, that we go on.
And this particular messageboard, um.
That I frequent is it'sthousands of guys from all over
the country and it's aboutcollege sports or college,
(07:53):
football.
But surprisingly, that'sprobably one of the least topics
that we talk about is actual.
Sports.
We talk about everything frompolitics, current events, what's
going on in the world, peopletrying to be funny, really good
information.
I mean, if I get up and check myphone, if I get up and check my
phone at three o'clock in themorning and there's a asteroid
(08:13):
heading.
Towards Earth.
Somebody on that board is goingto have posted it.
So it's a, it's, you know, it'skind of a cool place to hang
out, especially for somebodylike me who, when I'm not doing
comedy, I don't have much of alife.
So I go on there and, there area lot of people on there.
You, we have everything from theaverage Joe to the millionaire,
(08:35):
to the average Joe that actslike a millionaire to the
average Joe that makes fun ofthe guy that acts like a
millionaire to.
Neurosurgeon, HVAC guy, policeofficers, special forces, guys
in finance, just all kinds ofwide variety of people.
It's like a big social club thatpeople go on and you got good
(08:57):
guys, you've got, uh, you know,idiots just like every club.
And people are trying, you know,they're trying to be funny or
having discussions and as men dowhen they get together and some
women, they get together.
Uh, people always wanna putthemselves in the best light.
You know, you really don't wannasay things or do things and make
(09:19):
yourself look like you'refailing at life and there are
guys on there that you recognizethat post an awful lot.
It's not just people like methat occasionally gone,'cause
I'm.
You know, not giving upimmaturity without a fight and
trying to be funny when I'm offstage.
So you have, guys, you recognizeand you know, and you know in
(09:40):
your mind you don't know theirnames, but they have like a
handle.
And you'll, you, you know who,oh, there's somebody that you've
seen a lot and this guy seemslike a good guy.
This guy's a smart guy, thisguy's funny, this guy's all, you
know, this type of thing.
And again, nobody's gonna postanything on there to try to make
themselves look like they'refailing at life.
(10:02):
But last week a guy came on thatI had recognized his, his handle
sent him on there before and hewould be what you would classify
as one of the good guys, one ofthe guys you think was doing
life well.
And let me read to you how hestarted.
(10:24):
His post last Friday at 7:34 AMand this is a guy that's been on
this board for years.
Just seems to be living life,punching life in the face.
Uh, seemed like a successful,happy go lucky guy.
I think he got married about ayear ago.
(10:44):
The post starts, I'm analcoholic.
The body of the post I went tomy first meeting yesterday
evening.
This has been a hard process tobegin.
My body detoxed yesterday, andI'm still going through it
today.
The final straw was drinking anentire bottle of liquor
Wednesday morning before evenleaving the house.
(11:06):
I went to work and an hour intoit, could barely stand.
Coworker drove me home.
Never been more embarrassed onmy life.
Remember the word embarrassedhere.
Um, I am fortunate to not havecompletely thrown everything.
I've worked so hard, far away,and my boss said he isn't ready
(11:27):
to give up on me.
Even though I told him he shouldfire me.
He offered me grace and the timeI deserve none.
I will beat this.
The withdrawals are rough, butI'm really ready to be done.
I'm disgusted with myself,remember that and what I've
become.
I'm asking for some prayers as Ibattle through this, and I know
(11:50):
I'm not going to let it beat me.
I'm too young.
I just had my one year weddinganniversary.
We were looking at buying ahouse, I'm just tired of lying
to everyone and myself.
Mm.
And I noticed, uh, let's say therich and I noticed at the bottom
within an hour or two, this posthad 327 some odd likes, which is
(12:12):
a huge amount of, of peopleliking a particular post.
And the reason I said focus onthe embarrassed and the
disgusted with myself.
Because it sounds like thisguy's coming out and admitting
he's a failure and that he'slosing, but I read this post to
my wife, and my wife is one ofthe wisest, most spirit filled
(12:38):
people that I've ever met in mylife, and she looked over and
said, man.
Can you imagine how strong hehad to be to post that?
Yeah, absolutely.
But at a moment, this guy thinkshe's admitting that he's a
failure and he's a loser.
He's actually doing one of thestrongest things he's ever done,
(13:00):
and he's actually showing howstrong he is.
And I just wanted to bring it toyou.
Not only are you an addictionspecialist, but you are now 13
years sober.
Uh, anyway, comments and advice,tips as he's just beginning this
journey.
Absolutely.
Thanks Pat.
Initial thoughts, you know, he'sadmitted, he's got a problem.
(13:23):
He's gone to a meeting.
That's huge.
Like that's, that's like nosmall thing, you know, it's the,
you know, the first step, andI'll talk about the first step
of Alcoholics Anonymous a littlebit in, in, in a minute.
But like, you know, that firstkind of teetering step into a
recovery program is, you know,it's hard.
It's like a scary thing to walkinto a room for the people.
You, you may know people inthere, you probably don't.
(13:46):
There's a different language inthere, a different culture.
You know, it can feel veryashamed.
You one can feel very ashamedwalking in there, you know?
And embarrassed and disgusted.
There are two words that reallymean shame.
For me.
So that's a huge thing.
And your wife's on the money,you know, it's like that.
It takes a huge amount ofcourage to particularly publicly
(14:08):
like that, to come out and saysomething of that nature.
So yeah, lots of really goodstuff happening there.
It won't feel good right now,but it is good, you know?
And you know, like sometimes.
Gifts come wrapped in reallystrange packages.
And you know, that felt, youknow, that kind of day one, the
detox, you know, that rockbottom experience gonna work.
(14:29):
Having drunk a bottle of liquor,you know, there potentially, you
know, guarantees a lot of, it'lldepend on what he does from now
on, but like, potentiallythat'll be one of the best days
of his life.
'cause it'll be the day thateverything changes.
So that's kind of first thoughtsand then.
I mean, there's more to say.
I can say more than that, butwhat, you know, what do you,
what do you, what do you make ofwhat I've just said?
(14:50):
What, what do you think aboutthat?
I totally agree.
Um, the guy is, is he's showinghow strong he is on that day.
And, and then you just mentionedwalking into the meetings.
Mm-hmm.
And you might know, or you mightnot know this was the thing that
was surprising.
Uh, as you know, my, my brotherand sister were both.
(15:13):
Alcoholics and, uh, my wifewould take my brother to the,
you know, he couldn't drive, soshe would take him to the AA
meetings and she said, when youwalked in, she said, walked in.
She said it was packed.
And she said, I knew people,there were doctors, there were
(15:33):
prominent people in town.
There was every walk of life.
That was in there.
He said, you would just besurprised.
So he may feel lonely and likeyou're the only one doing this.
But there are far, far morepeople that are going through
this than you realize.
I remember when I was, um, Imentioned it in my book when I
was 16 and I got a DUI, I wentto a, a May SAP meeting called
(15:57):
Mississippi Alcohol SafetyAwareness Program to get my
driver's license back and.
I joke about how me and afriend, we, matter of fact, it
was after a college footballgame.
I decided that, you know, that Iwould try to go through about
eight red lights down the mainstreet and I go into this
meeting.
We look in the back of the roomand we see a lot of our friends'
(16:18):
parents, and these are prominentpeople in town.
These are doctors, but you know,not just the doctors are
prominent, but that's, uh, allwalks of life that were in those
meetings.
So this guy and anybody that'slistening and going through this
or has family members, it's amuch bigger club than you think
(16:38):
it is.
Oh, 100%.
Like, you gotta recognize,right?
Like, it's like addiction doesnot discriminate.
You know?
Like I've worked with people,you know, professionally and,
you know, sponsored people in 12step programs and stuff like
that that have, you know, theirtrainers have their sneakers, so
have been worth more than mycar, you know?
And I've worked with people thatlike, literally had like
(17:01):
nothing, you know, that werelike low bottom, you know, like
street level drug addicts, youknow?
And, but like addiction doesn'tdiscriminate.
It might look a bit.
Different in some cases, but itdoesn't discriminate.
So yeah, you'll have the fullspectrum of society in there.
There's a meeting in, uh, inEast London.
And, um, it's a reallyinteresting meeting.
Where it sits is it sort of sitson the cusp of, um, of the
(17:25):
financial district, right?
Which, you know, you are WallStreet, right?
It sits on the cusp of thefinancial district, but then a
load of, um, you know, muchpoorer, like infinitely poorer
areas.
So you are going in that meetingand you might be sat next to a
hedge fund manager.
On one side and on the otherside you'll have like a, a guy
(17:46):
who's, who's come out of, wecall them mistakes.
You would call them housingprojects.
Yeah.
Um, and you, you know, andeveryone in between, you know,
so it's, yeah, like that point'sso important to remember.
It's like addiction doesn'tdiscriminate.
Um, yeah.
That it is, you know, likeprominent people, not so
prominent people.
Everyone in between then,without a doubt.
(18:10):
You, you went through the 12.
'cause I know people that havegone through the 12 step
program, uh, and people, uh,very successfully.
It seems to be one of the most,you know, successful paths out
there.
You went.
That's what you started off, youknow,'cause we're kind of, we're
a faith-based podcast, but youstarted off in the 12 step
(18:30):
program.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, that really is whatbrought me to Faith, right?
Because you go in there andthere's, there's an emphasis,
you know, a significant emphasison a higher power, right?
So what that guy.
That's, that's not, that's inthe 12 step program.
In any 12 step program.
Yeah.
Yeah, 100%.
It's, it's like built in.
(18:50):
So the roots of the 12 stepprogram are that, you know,
started in 1936 by Bill Wilsonand Dr.
Bob Smith.
They were both like heavyweightChristians, you know, so I've
been to Bob's house in Quan,Ohio and like they, you know,
they've set it up kind of as itwas when he lived there in like
the thirties and through untilthe forties I think their house
(19:10):
was in the.
Family's possession until thefifties, if I remember the
history right.
So like you can see where BobSmith sat reading, you know,
like reading his Bible, youknow, he was insomniac reading
his Bible reading books like theVarieties of Spiritual
Experience, right?
So it had very Christian roots.
Um.
How it's been translated overthe years is that that has
(19:32):
broadened out to accept kind ofall faiths and none.
And you know, I think that kindof open access is really
important.
But for me, the journey wasthrough working the 12 steps and
kind of coming to believe in thepresence of the higher part in
that higher power's ability tohelp me grow and change and
heal.
That was what led me to thechurch, you know, after some
(19:53):
years so.
Yeah, there's a heavy emphasison that stuff.
I mean, I worked through thesteps really.
Step one.
You know, it is, we admit, wewere powerless over alcohol and
our lives have becomeunmanageable.
It's odd.
It's a funny paradox, pat, butlike in that admission of
powerlessness, you know, thatadmission of defeat, which I
(20:15):
hear in your guys' post, and ifyou are listening, like I really
want to just applaud you andaffirm you and encourage you and
tell you like there is a wayout.
It can get better.
It did for me.
Um.
But that post is an admission ofpowerlessness.
Yeah.
That post is a, like, I can't dothis.
Yeah.
Like, this has got me licked.
Yeah.
Like, you know, under my ownpower, you know, left to my own
(20:38):
devices, relying on my ownthinking, decision making,
thinking and decision making.
I'm drinking a bottle of liquorbefore I go to work, getting
driven home by a coworker andtelling my boss that he needs to
fire me.
You know, that's where my bestthinking gets me.
So there's an admission ofpowerlessness in that.
And the paradox that I mentionedis, is when you admit your
powerless, you open the door.
(21:00):
To the possibility of findingsome power, but until you've
admitted you haven't got any,it's very difficult to go
looking for any, you know, sothat's, you know, that's kind of
the, the first step.
And look, I mean, look, yourguy, like, I'd say look, go to a
lot of meetings.
Yeah.
Go to a lot of meetings.
Meeting makers.
Make it, yeah.
Get a sponsor.
Work the 12 steps, you know,it's the 12 steps that.
(21:24):
You know, it's be, you know,you, I mean that's like, it's
not even a podcast.
It's like a, several bookscould, you know, you could write
about the people's experiencesthey have and stuff like that,
but it's like, you know, likesum up very simply.
It's like trust god, cleanhouse, help others, you I in,
you realize you're beaten.
Develop a relationship with somekind of higher power and just
(21:45):
even like the fledgling, justthe little kind of embers of a
belief that this thing can helpme.
And the cleaning house is like,you're going through the, going
through a, a process of like,you kind of clear out all of
the, the guilt, the shame, theremorse.
You acknowledge the hurts thatyou've perpetrated to people.
(22:05):
You look at what you've done tothem.
You look at what you've allowedpeople to do to you, you know,
you really take responsibilityfor.
SHIT that you, you know, thatyou've kind, you've done and you
know what elder that kind ofdarkness and muck that you're
carrying, you know, in change,you make some restitution, you
know, that's cleaning house andthen helping others is right.
(22:27):
Kind of carrying the message toother people that it's possible
to do so.
Right.
And that it's different ways todo that, but it's like,
essentially it's like.
It's like what we're charged todo in the great commission.
Yeah.
Like we get saved right throughour faith.
Right.
We get washed clean, we getforgiven.
Somewhere in that maybe we learnto forgive ourselves.
Alright.
(22:48):
But in a great commission tellsus that we go out and we carry
that message to other people,you know, that we try and create
disciples, you know, so it'svery Christian based.
If you've got a faith, your guymentions prayers at the end of
his, um, at the end of his post.
So that suggests that he has afaith, which is a huge asset.
It's not essential when you walkthrough the doors.
It's a huge asset.
You might mention that.
(23:08):
Yeah.
So, yeah, that's, um, yeah,that's, that's, that's, yeah.
That's.
Yeah, lemme ask you this, that,that I've wondered one, uh, I'm,
you know, when you're talkingabout faith and addiction, you
know, it used to be in thechurch, they would say, you
know.
Put your faith in Jesus and getover this and stop calling
addiction disease, whatever.
(23:29):
I, it doesn't matter what youdisease, you can't control
yourself.
It, you know, I've heard apastor that I respect and I love
this guy's past now, but, butyou know, he, he, uh, he gave a
sermon on the, the.
Oh, you know, now they go totherapy.
They call it a day.
Well, I couldn't, I, I totallydisagree with him on that
particular point.
That was the old schoolthinking.
(23:51):
It's something you can'tcontrol.
And like you said, this guy andwhat you did 13 years ago, you
admitted you had a problem.
And then that's where yourstrength come, comes from in, in
that point.
Um.
Do you think, because I alwayswonder, you know, both of us
overcame all about the stuff,you know, the drugs and all the
(24:13):
crime and all the stuff we didat, at younger ages.
I wasn't really physicallyaddicted.
I was just a miserable, I, youknow, hopeless person.
I, I, you know, all the troubleand everything I got into, I was
emotionally attached to drugs.
And so when I started followingGod, things started really
changing.
I didn't have that, that.
Desire there.
(24:34):
Do you think it traces back towhen you're young or is it, it
is just like this is justsomething in your body.
You drink alcohol, you can't, doyou see what I'm saying?
I always try to trace back a lotof the trouble I got into to, to
what caused me to feel that way.
It doesn't seem like there'sreally a causal.
In alcoholic, it just seems likesome people can handle it and
(24:55):
some people can't.
Do you get what I'm saying?
It doesn't necessarily mean thisguy has a tough childhood or all
the other alcoholic.
Matter of fact, one of the mostsuccessful guys in the town that
I live in, uh, this guy gave upalcohol at 23, 24 years old, is
one of the most successfulbusinessmen at times.
He still goes to AA meetings, Ithink.
I think once a week.
Matter of fact, he posts whathe, his what he, his whole story
(25:18):
about once a year, six months ayear on social media and puts
his phone number on there forpeople, for people to call.
So he didn't have some deepseated, you know, type miserable
trauma growing up.
I mean, he had lost his fatherat a young age.
But I'm just wondering is, is,do, do most people have that or
is it something like, alcohol isjust like drugs, you just, it's
(25:39):
a.
You see where I'm going?
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's different schools ofthought, right?
And I think it is different fordifferent people, right?
Definitely.
For some people there's thatkind of trauma basis.
Lying underneath it, you know,the drugs, the alcohol becomes a
way to medicate those kind ofdeeper.
Wounds, pains, sadnesses forsure.
The other thing that is reallyimportant to bear in mind is
(26:01):
like essentially drinkingalcohol is pleasurable, right?
Like people have been kind ofgetting high or getting drunk or
getting stoned in different waysfor thousands of years, right?
We're as creatures, we aredesigned to move towards things
that are ple.
Right.
But the problem is with thingslike alcohol, cocaine, heroin,
you know, all sort of substanceswhich can become problematic and
(26:23):
misused, right?
Like is that they, theyradically alter.
Over well over time, sometimesnot over time, sometimes very
quickly, but they radicallyalter the brain chemistry.
So you can come dependent and,you know, end up with a habit
forming around that substancethat can, that can happen very
quickly.
Right?
So.
(26:44):
Look for some people, I thinkit's, yes, there's like, there's
definitely pain in thebackground, which is being
medicated for other people.
No, there isn't.
There is, you know, ourarguments and lots of research
and debate about the geneticbasis of alcoholism or
addiction, right?
But more importantly, like for,you know, and kind of bringing
(27:04):
it back to your man, right?
Like, it's like, actually noneof that really matters right
now.
You know, none of that.
None of that really matters,right?
What matters is what he doesabout it.
So I liken it like this.
Pat Rod, I'm explain this to, tothe people I work with quite
often.
Right.
It's like if you are in a house,right?
If you are on the top floor of ahouse and that house is on fire,
yeah.
(27:25):
What you do not need to do isfigure out how the fire started.
Yeah.
You need to get out.
Yeah.
Like you need to get out of thehouse sitting there thinking
about how this fire broke.
I wonder if it broke out in thekitchen.
Maybe it was'cause I left thestove on.
It could be.
Or actually did so and so likediscard a lit cigarette into the
(27:47):
bin.
They thought it was out, butthat's caused the binge.
No one cares.
Do you know what I mean?
You definitely shouldn't care.
What you need is to get out.
You need, and you, you need somehelp to get out.
Right.
And then once you're out and thefile's been put out, maybe you
know, maybe you go and look inthe embers and you do the
investigation and you try andfigure out what happened.
Some people do, some peopledon't.
(28:08):
Some people need to, some peopledon't.
You know, I think there'sbroadly three, three types of
people.
Aa, whatever, whatever, a right.
There's broadly three types ofpeople.
There's people that can come in,they can work through the steps
and everything's, they're gonnabe okay.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, fine, they're gonna live anice happy life.
They'll be healed, you know,like the, um, the alcoholism,
(28:29):
the active, um, symptoms ofalcoholism will be removed,
right?
They'll live a nice happy life.
They'll be fine.
Do you know what I mean?
Then there's another type ofperson.
They're gonna work through thesteps, but because of that
underlying kind of woundingtrauma, whatever you wanna call
that, they're gonna need to dosome other stuff.
They're gonna need to dig intoit.
They're gonna need to find outwhat's underneath that,
(28:50):
otherwise they're not gonna staysober.
Right.
And then you get peoplesomewhere in the middle.
Like they'll probably stay soberif they work the steps, but they
might need a bit of help as wellif they're really gonna be able
to enjoy their lives.
Do you know what I mean?
Figuring out what, which one ofthose types of people you are,
that comes later.
You know?
Right now you need to be sober.
If I'm working with someonethat's new, like brand new
through the door in the samescenario that's been outlined in
(29:13):
that post, like I'm not lookingto find out why.
For a while.
You know, what I wanna do ishelp them to figure out what
they're gonna do about it.
Be that go to meetings, be thatgoing to rehab, whatever it
needs to be, do what you need todo to get sober.
The rest of it you can figureout.
Leo, one other question.
(29:33):
Do you do, and I don't know howto phrase this, do you focus,
you know, there, there arepeople that, that think, you
know, you have family, you havechil, you know, you do, you
focus on.
I gotta do this for them, or isit, I gotta do this for me?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, great question, pat.
So look, the, the, um, the ageold wisdom has been, and you
(29:59):
will hear this said many timesif you know, particularly if you
spend time around AA or whatevergroup, right?
Is that if you're not doing itfor yourself, it's not gonna
work.
Right, right now, that's what Ithought I would.
I, I have a slightly differenttake on that, right?
So most people.
Or a significant proportion ofpeople walking through the doors
of a 12 step meeting.
(30:20):
They're not, they're probablynot in a place where they're
like, oh, you know what?
Like, I really believe that I'mworth more, you know?
I really believe on a deep feltlevel that I'm better than this.
Yeah.
And like, because I've.
Believe and back myself so much,I wanna make this change for me.
You know what I mean?
I don't think that's most peoplewhen they walk through those
doors, what pushes peoplethrough those doors of a meeting
(30:43):
or a clinic or a rehab center,what, you know, whatever it
might be.
What pushes people through thosedoors will often be
consequences.
You know, loss of something,job, family.
Yeah.
Like, and the desire to avoidthose consequences.
Right.
It may Well, but this guy's onthe verge of it.
Yeah.
It may well be that family.
(31:05):
You know, it's like there's beenan ultimatum.
You don't, you need to go andget well or else.dot do
whatever.
Gets people through the doors.
Gets people through the doors.
Yeah.
But like once you were there.
So hopefully through the wholeand the love that you'll
experience there, you will startto shift and think.
Actually, you know what, like I,I want this, I heard a story
(31:26):
once.
Um, I heard it on a, a recorded,um.
Yeah, it's what called a share,someone telling their story.
But, uh, many years ago it wason a cd, you know, back when,
you know, so there would beshare CDs that would be kind of
handed round and, you know,copied and stuff like that.
And it was a lady from LA andshe was a, she was a crack
addict, right?
(31:47):
And she got sentenced to do 90meetings in 90 days, which you
guys do over there, whichhasn't, sadly, hasn't really
caught on over here.
But you find it some places, butit hasn't really caught on over
here.
Anyway, her story was until day89.
Yeah.
Until day 89.
She sat in these meetings andshe hated being there, man.
She was like, I just can't waitto get out.
(32:07):
Yeah.
Get my thing, you know, get myfinal meeting shit signed.
Yeah.
Like court slip, right.
Get out from under this kind ofstipulation, and then I'm going
back out and then I'm gonna hitthat pipe.
Right?
And, and she said on day 90 shesat in that meeting and she
looked around and she thought,you know what?
Really emotional.
(32:29):
So you said, you know what, whatthese people in here have got
going on looks a lot better thanwhat I've got going on out
there, and I think I'm gonnastick around.
So I think it's whatever getsyou through the door.
Pat, your advice to this guy andanybody listening and anybody
starting going through this.
Is to get up, get to thosemeetings., It seems like when
(32:51):
I've had trouble way back in mylife, it was like, WW win today.
You know, just win today, do itright.
Today, go one and oh two and ohthree and oh four, and oh, if
you have a fall, jump back upand get a streak of winning
again.
Is it your, so your focus is getinto the meetings, reach out,
get as much help.
What would your final thing tosay to this guy?
(33:12):
That is Right.
It's like levels of care.
It's like if you go to theemergency room, you know what we
call a accident and emergency.
Right.
They're gonna triage you.
Yeah.
They're gonna work out whetheryou need some bandages.
Yeah.
Whether you need a doctor tolook at you and, and kind of do
some medication or whether youneed to be admitted.
Yeah.
And go up to the fourth floorand get some treatment.
Right.
(33:33):
Go to meetings, reach out, makefriends, build a support
network.
Get a sponsor.
Work the steps.
Do all of those things.
Yeah.
If that doesn't work, get a, getsome professionals involved.
You know, if you've gotinsurance, use that, whatever
you need to do.
Yeah.
But like, you might wanna get acounselor, you might need to go
to rehab.
(33:54):
But the starting point is like,just get to those meetings.
Do all the things they tell youto do.
If that doesn't work,reevaluate, you might need more
help.
But right now it's getting tothose meetings.
Well that's good advice.
Uh.
This guy can overcome anybodylistening, anybody that has
(34:14):
family, friends that are goingthrough this, uh, they can all
overcome.
And the seriousness of this, Icertainly know because my older
brother and my younger sisterboth drank themselves to death.
Oh, pop.
They literally drank themselvesto death.
(34:35):
I'm sorry, ma'am.
I don't, uh, that that's, youknow, that's okay.
It's down, you know, it's, it's,it, you know, watered down.
They, um, the thing is theconsequences are high.
I don't, I don't know any75-year-old alcoholics, you,
you, you win it or, or it beatsyou.
(34:56):
So I think, uh, what you'resaying is whatever you have to
do.
Get up there and win that dayand do it.
And then the joy to bring itback to the overcoming.
I You were one of that.
I was just commenting when westarted the day, the house, the
big smile on your face.
You're getting married, uh, inthe few, I hope I'm not letting
the cat out of the bag, but you13 years sober, right?
(35:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, man.
No, I mean.
And it's not been, you know,it's not been easy, but it's
been great, you know?
Right.
It's, you know, I, I'm one ofthose people, I needed extra
help.
You know, I, I carried a lot ofpain into recovery, you know,
into my sobriety, um, right.
That caused me, uh, somedifficulties as you know, but,
but, um, but ultimately it ledme to Jesus.
(35:43):
Right.
That's a huge thing.
You know, all of that stuff ledme to, led me to Jesus.
Yeah.
And, and, and that was where.
The magic, probably not the bestchoice of words, but that's
where it really.
Really started to happen, butlike in the meantime, before
that, even in the midst of, youknow, some difficulties and
stuff, like for me to not usedrugs, right?
(36:03):
This is, I use drugs every dayfrom the age of 14 onwards,
maybe 13.
Definitely by the time I was 14I was using something.
I was getting high on somethingevery single day.
Alcohol was a huge part of mystory.
But then everything else aswell, cocaine, crack, cocaine,
heroin, cannabis, you know,marijuana, whatever you wanna
call it.
For me to have that obsession.
(36:24):
Murder of succession to use anddrink removed was nothing short
of a miracle.
I traveled the world.
I built a great career.
I made lots of friends.
You know, I, I've, you know, Ihad no one, you know, I had no
one left in my life.
No one cared.
Well, people cared, but theywere so hurt, you know, that
they'd retreated.
I, you know, angered people,stolen from people, robbed my
(36:45):
parents' peace of mind, youknow?
So then to be able to build alife, you know, where she's, you
know, I have.
Safety, security, a roof over myhead.
Love, you know, friendships, youknow, like choices.
You know, I'm not, look, I'm notwaiting for the door to come
through with like the police ordrug dealers.
I owe money to, you know, I'mnot waiting, you know, like,
(37:06):
it's not how I live today.
Yeah.
So, yeah, the joy, you know,the, the transformation is
remarkable, you know, and yeah.
I'm praying for your guy, man.
I'm praying for him.
Yeah.
I'm praying for him too.
My wife is praying for him, andI know people hear, oh, thoughts
and prayers.
I promise you.
Praying for people even that youdon't know make a difference.
(37:29):
There was a thing in my book Imentioned the day I walked down
that street when it was rainingand I ran into this guy.
I'm coming back, actually, I'mcoming back from college
football game and I've run outtagas.
There's a guy standing on theside of the road and asked me
how I'm doing and who I am.
We talked for a second.
He says, well, I know who youare.
He says, we've been praying foryou.
There were people in this housethat had heard my name, and I
(37:51):
have no doubt that that had alot to do with the miracle that
happened in my life.
So, uh, to our guy that we'retalking about.
Uh, we are praying for him.
My wife's praying for him.
Other people do, he can do thisand he can overcome.
So I appreciate you sharingthat.
And, uh, before we go Rich, um,speaking of overcoming, I want
(38:13):
to tell you an amazing story.
Um.
About overcoming on the intro.
You listen to the intro and theoutro music to our podcast.
Yeah.
You hear the cool funk, jazzfusion that comes in there.
Well, there's an amazing storybehind that.
The guy playing that is a guynamed Michael Abernathy and he
(38:35):
has a band called Abernathy andyou can find his music anywhere.
Uh, that's out there.
He is got several other songs.
Really talented guy.
And let me share his story withyou.
February 23rd, 2004.
He's 34 years old.
He has, he's married for, Idon't know how long he'd been
(38:57):
married, but he just, he was,had a two week old son.
He is an accomplished musicianby night.
He's worked with some big nameguys, big name folks, and he is
working construction during theday, and he's up in the roofs
about a three story house in oneof the more prestigious
neighborhoods in my hometown ofHattiesburg, Mississippi.
(39:19):
He falls through that roof 30feet onto his head.
They don't think he's going tomake it, but they rush him to
the emergency room.
They do an emergency craniotomyon him.
I don't know if I'm pronouncingthat right.
His head was like twice the sizeof normal, but the doctor's
(39:39):
thinking he, he shouldn't live.
He's got a vein gushing blood,so they can't work on it.
You can't work when there'sblood gushing in, his vein.
And he died.
During the surgery, but when hedied, the blood stopped gushing,
(40:01):
so the doctor was able to sewthe vein back up, but he was
dead.
He flatlined.
So they brought him back to lifeand they, they, you know,
whatever the shock, somehow theyshocked him back to life.
And the doctor said no one hadever flatlined, no one had ever
died and come back to life, um,with him like that.
(40:25):
But he has this and the severebrain injury.
And he can't function.
He's good chance.
He's going to be an invalid forthe rest of his life.
And, uh, he comes out of thehospital, he does have a wife,
but he's needing round the clockcare.
Probably gonna need that roundthe clock care for the rest of
(40:46):
his life.
But he's having trouble.
He needs help.
He has a walker or wheelchair.
He's having episodes where hehas to go to the emergency room
and one day his wife takes him.
To the emergency room, and he'ssitting in a wheelchair and he
had gone through like ninemonths of his life just
disappeared From the time he hadthat accident.
(41:07):
He didn't remember anything fornine months.
It just all of a sudden picksback up.
Remember 2-year-old kid, uh,that he was not able to, to, you
know, play with or, or enjoy or,or be with, but he, his wife
takes him to the ho to theemergency room.
And he sees his wife down thehallway gesturing wildly with
(41:30):
the doctors or, or the nurses.
And that's all he remembers.
He sees that and then he seeshis wife turn and walk away, and
that's the last he saw her.
She just walked out and left.
He's in the hospital and he'ssitting there.
He has no phone.
Uh.
He has no money.
He has nowhere to go, nobody totake care of him.
(41:53):
And so they stabilize him andtake him to the local, um,
salvation Army.
And so he's at the SalvationArmy.
And, you know, that's a homelessshelter.
Mm-hmm.
We have that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, uh, it's basicallybasically a homeless shelter and
they, um.
(42:15):
They flew him, you know, from,from the homeless shelter.
They, uh, his brother, I thinkfound out and came and got him
and then flew him out toCalifornia's brother, I think,
lived in Seattle, Washington,flew him out to California and
he's staying with hisstepfather, so he takes him to
stay with his stepfather.
His mother died at the age of21.
(42:37):
He's already had.
A bit of a tough go of it.
Oh, and he had already overcomedrug addiction himself.
He had had a bad cocaineproblem.
He had already overcome a lot inlife, but he's doing well at
this point when he has this,when he has this brain with this
massive traumatic brain injury.
But he's left in this homeless,basically homeless shelter.
(43:00):
His brother flies him, flies himout to stay with his stepfather.
Well, his stepfather has thisevil stepmother who's a meth
head when the stepfather's notaround.
She's giving him a hard time.
She doesn't like him.
She doesn't want him in thehouse.
He caught her doing meth.
He saw her doing meth and sheknew it, and she wanted him out
of the house, so they put himinto a care home in California.
(43:23):
Well, some of these care homes.
They, they can call'em a carehome all they want, but what
they are is they're there tosuck money outta people and
they're there there to suckworkman's comp and government
money out of them.
Because he said he spent 14years in this care home in
California, and he said it was14 years of living hell.
(43:45):
He said they were pumping himfull of drugs.
They had no intention of.
You know, of trying to, to rehabhim or trying to help him out.
He's stuck in this, in thishome.
Uh, he's using a walker.
He can't hardly walk.
They pump him full of drugs.
He's fighting the drugs.
Remember, this guy's a drugaddict from the past.
(44:07):
You know, he overcame that.
He doesn't need to be pumpedfull of drugs, but he's
fighting.
And he's still fighting thedrugs and he's still thinking,
you know, I can beat this.
He, he knows he has this twoweek old son and he keeps
thinking, I've gotta somehow getout of this.
I've gotta somehow get throughthis so I can see my son again.
He said that was the, to be afather that he could be proud
(44:30):
of.
But 14 years in aninstitutionalized home, when on
the inside of your mind, you'restill functioning.
You know, you just know that youneed some help, but they're not
helping him.
He starts taking classes.
Um, he gets a bass, so he'splaying bass.
But you know, 14 years is a longtime.
Lot of Christmases, lot ofsummers, lot of falls that are
(44:52):
passing.
So he starts taking, you know,classes and he is trying to
help, but he's still on awalker.
He's still being left.
He, they're just give, they'vegiven up on him, they've
institutionalized him, and ithappens all over the place.
I don't know if it happens inEngland, but it happens in
America.
If there's money coming in, theybenefit from you being in that
bed and in that room graduate.
(45:14):
And putting you back on yourlife.
But there is one woman in there,one nurse that sees the
progress, that sees the lightinside of his eyes, that sees
the hope, and she helps him comeback closer to Mississippi where
his son is.
So they move him to Covington,um, Louisiana.
So in Covington, Louisiana, theydo start helping him.
(45:40):
They do start trying to rehabhim.
They thought, that they couldhelp.
They said this was, uh, youknow, it was a place where they
were really trying to.
Trying to get him better and hestarts getting better and he
starts helping.
He starts teaching classes inthe place.
So he's now starting to comeout.
He's still in, in a wheelchair,and he's there for about four
(46:03):
years.
But remember, he has no control.
He can't leave.
He's still ward.
I mean, he's wherever.
People are gonna put him, and hehas nowhere to go.
Wife just left him in theemergency room.
So he starts teaching classesand he starts making a
difference in people's lives.
He starts telling the guy in thewheelchair where your arms work,
you know, where he, but he's anencourager.
(46:24):
So he starts doing this, andthen he gets to the point where
the place in Covington says.
We think you can maybe go to agraduate out to another facility
because you're making progress.
Well, that actually turned outto be a dark moment because they
sent him to a place in Ponchowhere they kind of put you up in
an apartment, but you can'tleave it.
(46:46):
You're, they've got cameras onyou and you know, your workman's
comp still paying the money.
And there was a woman thererunning the place that, uh.
Zero, rehab zero or anything,not trying to help this guy at
all.
And she's fighting to keep himthere and he's wanting to get
(47:07):
out and she's just, she, matterof fact, she's taunting him
talking about you can't, youknow, you're not gonna believe
you.
Oh, you did this and you didthat, but you're still here.
And, and so now he's back goingthrough hell and he can't.
Get out of this place, and he'sat this place for several more
years, but he's still fightingand he's still believing that he
(47:27):
can get out of this.
So one day he he contacts anattorney and he finds out he
doesn't really have a guardian.
He doesn't really have anybodythat's put him there.
They've just, these facilitieshave just made decisions and the
healthcare professionals havejust moved him to each facility
and then on to the nextfacility.
So he hires an attorney and theattorney comes back and says,
(47:50):
you know, you have no guardian.
And the attorney starts working,starts filing papers, and the
attorney picks up the phone,calls him one day and says, it's
over.
Pack your stuff.
He said, I'm coming for you.
And the guy said, there's.
Two of the greatest days in hislife was the one when his child
was born.
(48:10):
The second one, when the guycalled and said, it's over.
I'm coming to get you.
That was a year and a half ago.
The guy's in a walker, he canbarely, you know, he can still
take him 10 minutes to getacross the parking lot.
That guy goes and gets him,brings him up to Hattiesburg, my
hometown, where I met him abouta year and a half ago when I met
him.
(48:31):
He walked with a walker, hecouldn't walk.
You could tell his speech wasimpaired.
Six months later, this dude isout walking the golf course,
playing nine holes of golf,dragging his bag.
He's playing the bass again.
He's functioning on his own.
(48:51):
He's put together a band andhe's playing this music, and I
start hearing this music.
I don't know who it is.
I'm like, well, who is that?
That That's me.
That's you with this cool jazzfunk fusion.
That we're listening to.
Yeah, that's me.
It's six months later, he'simproving more and more Now he's
got his band, he's got his lifeback.
(49:13):
He's back talking to his kid.
They left him for dead and theyleft him as an invalid, and this
guy is functioning so well thatI was gonna mention his story
because he was kind enough togive us this.
This music for free to listento.
I call the dude up just to makesure that I get the story
straight, but he has to call meback an hour LA and a half later
(49:34):
because he's outside in ahundred degree Mississippi Heat
doing, mowing his yard andweeding his yard amazing.
Is amazing and overcoming.
So that's, uh.
Yeah, that's great.
It's amazing, amazing story, youknow, and sad, you know, a lot
(49:55):
of loss in their damningindictment of the care system.
And yeah, we have the same, thesame kind of stuff happens in,
in our care homes.
Same kind of stuff happens inaddiction treatment sometimes.
You know, I think there's badactors in every industry, and
when people are vulnerable,sometimes they can get
exploited.
So, um, if you're not gettingthe care you need, um, remember
(50:16):
you've always got.
You've always got options.
Thankfully, in the end, he foundsomeone that could help him
understand what he's were.
So that's amazing.
Thanks Pat for sharing that.
Well, and the key is, as he saidto me, never give up, never
quit.
He said, I knew the day I gaveup is the day I lost.
That's the same message that wehave for our friend from the
(50:36):
sports message board that I'mtalking about, and the same
message that we have foreverybody else.
Absolutely.
Never give up.
Never quit.
And, uh, when you're, when weend this today, if whoever's
listening, if you take about 20seconds and listen to the outro
music.
It's called 15 minutes tonight.
(50:58):
There's about a 22nd clip.
And just remember, you're notjust listening to some really
cool jazz funk fusion.
You're listening to the sound ofvictory and the sound of not
giving up and the sound ofovercoming, and that's.
Michael Abernathy and you canfind him, uh, the band Abernathy
(51:19):
on any of the music.
And congratulations, Michael.
Way to go, dude.
Uh, rich.
Good to see you, man.
We'll talk again next week.
Thank you.
Next week, pat.
God bless you man, and God blessto everyone's listening.
Alright.
Alright, take care buddy.
Take care.
Bye.
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