August 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Richard and Pat discuss the differences between church in England and America, along with the roll England has played in the history of Christianity. They also talk about the discrimination against Christians in the UK and the revival of Christianity that is now taking place.
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Pat (00:20):
Alright.
Good afternoon, Richard.
Good morning, pat.
Is it actually morning overthere or you just, you know,
man, it, this, this evening?
It's the evening time.
Just, well, you, I know youthink I've throwing you off
because normally it's morningover here, but we had to go a
(00:41):
little late today, to getstarted, so, oh, of course.
It actually isn't the morningfor you is it's the afternoon.
Just about right.
It's lunch.
Yeah.
Do you have, do you have clockswith hands on or do you just
have the ones with numbers?
No, we don't have, the littlehand is on, the little hand is
on the 12.
The big hand.
(01:01):
No, we have the clocks.
As a matter of fact, most of myclocks are made in Britain.
I dunno what It's my, yeah.
My wife buys these clocks thatthey're Britney or something,
but they're mostly made.
She bought a whole bunch of'em.
They're made in Britain.
Will you be able to get thatwith the tariffs?
Now there'll be like a milliondollars, wouldn't they?
No, we've already got'em.
(01:22):
All we have to do is keepreplacing batteries.
Okay.
Which is the thing, my wife islike a clock freak and she has
clocks all over the house and soshe has'em all over, like every
wall you look at, there's aclock.
The problem is they takebatteries and she buys the
batteries at Dollar Tree, whichis pound tree.
(01:44):
Isn't that what it's called?
Anyway, we, we have pound landand we have pound land, so Yeah.
But I'm aware of Dollar Tree.
I met when I was in Mississippi.
I met a woman who said shecould, she could do a, a week
shopping at the Dollar Tree.
Yeah.
So.
You can you just, the stuff youcan get in there, but calling
something I don't want to get,but calling something pound land
(02:06):
or pound tree in America wouldbe that.
You could have a whole differentconnotation.
So it's pro profit a good thing.
We've stuck with the, we'vestuck with the dollar tree
there, but yeah, it's a dollar.
Or now that inflation dollar$2550, you'd be amazed at stuff you
can rack up on in there.
But she gets the batteries andthe batteries aren't like the
(02:28):
best.
Maybe quality batteries.
I don't know.
So they kind of fade fairlyquick.
So the point I'm getting at isyou walk around my house, it's
like I'm in eight different timezones because the battery starts
fading.
You know, it's 10 o'clock overhere, it's 11.
I gotta meet Rich at 12.
Wait, which one of these clocksis.
(02:50):
Kind of close to the actualtime.
It's like you have the clock tohave the clock instead of to
actually tell the time.
So, so anyway, but it is lunch,so this is one of the few times.
So I guess you've had a long dayto, to squeeze it in.
Actually, I'm in a littletrouble it being lunchtime
because I know you've had acrack at marriage and you're
(03:11):
about to get married again.
But after 35, that's, that'svery diplomatically put Patrick.
Yes, that's correct.
Yeah.
I think I gave it a go.
Not very.
I should, I shouldn't laugh.
I not very successfully, butyes.
No, no.
I know it's not, I know it's notfunny.
I know you feel, I know.
But I think you would say had ago at it.
(03:33):
I did.
I had a go.
I gave it a shot.
I definitely gave it a shot.
Gave, gave it, gave it a shot.
Well, my wife had given it ashot before sh before she.
You know, before she landed me,so 35 years later.
Yeah, I told you before I gotmarried, big fish.
(03:56):
She, we, we lived, we, it was,yeah.
She, she had no idea it was, uh,actually we worked for the same
company and I kept hearing aboutthis woman that was the state
administrator.
In Jackson, the Capitol, andthey.
(04:16):
Were telling me how attractivethis woman was and I was still a
bit of a shallow how person backat the time, you know, I've been
fighting it all my life.
But, you know, I was like, likeone guy, a boss I had one time,
he said, pat wants somebody tomake him look good.
So if they're telling me thatthis girl is looking, but bottom
line is they turned out, uh.
(04:38):
It, it was right because I'dcome home from work one day and
the guy that was my districtmanager at the time called up
and said, you need to come downto the office.
I'm like, man, I've been out inthe country.
I'm tired.
I'm, I've already got my tieoff.
He said, you gotta come on down.
He was a friend of mine and hekept telling me, come on down,
come on down.
And I'm like, I'm not coming.
Finally, he said, you, youbetter come on down.
(04:59):
And um, I said, all right, I'mgonna come down there.
I said, but when I get downthere.
Christie Brinkley better besitting on that couch.
I, he said, all right, come ondown.
Well, actually, he was a countryguy, so he was like a, come on
down.
So I drive down there and I walkin the door and he said, pat
(05:23):
McCool meet Christie Brinkleyand points over to the couch and
is the most beautiful woman I'dever seen in my life.
And I immediately think.
Way outta my league, but I throwsomething out, you know, I kind
of make a comment and, uh, andthen she responds and I'm
thinking, wait a second, thiswoman is actually talking to me.
(05:44):
And, uh, it turned out,whatever, you know, whatever I
was, was slinging.
She was buying.
And within a hundred days we gotmarried, as I told you, in a
double wide trailer.
By a guy that I used to workwith about 45 minutes out in the
country, and the guy went outand, um, showed us his goats and
his mules, and we picked up abox of Kentucky Fried Chicken
(06:08):
and headed home.
35.
I had to move in.
I had to seal the deal beforeshe realized I didn't have a
fortune stashed in the Caymans.
And I really hadn't, you know,rescued children from a burning
building or whatever.
I told her the first night thatwe met.
So, but what I was getting atwas after 35 years of marriage,
(06:28):
you listen to your spouse, butyou listen for tone.
If it's an emerging emergencytone, you.
You hone in, but if it's justregular talk monotone, you might
not hear it as much.
So you get I, my wife wascooking something and we had
like some french fries left overfrom the weekend or whatever and
(06:50):
she said, do you want any frenchfries?
I said, no, I'm sick of frenchfries.
And she screams back, you'resick of my big fat thighs.
I was like, no, I didn't sayanything about your big fat
thighs.
She said, so you're saying you,I have big fat thighs.
I just, I don't know if that'sever happened to you.
(07:11):
I just grabbed my stuff andheaded up the stairs and I will.
Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm familiar withthat kind of, um, communication
breakdown.
Definitely.
I think that's trans, that'stransatlantic for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, hopefully I'll stay uphere talking to you long enough
that it'll have let thingssimmer down.
Yeah.
(07:31):
It'll have moved on by the timethat I get back down so Well,
anyway, today we've been meaningto talk about this, we want to
talk about the.
The difference between church inEngland and America, and I have
never been in a church inEngland, obviously.
So if you would go first and youhave been in American and
(07:53):
American churches, so if youwanna start by te telling us
your experiences.
Yeah, I mean, when I was inMississippi Zippy pack when we
met, right?
Um, I was thinking about thisthe other day actually, like
the, you know, I was, um.
You know, I was a drug addict asyou know, right.
So like my, my world for manyyears was very small, you know,
very, very small.
Right.
(08:13):
You know, it was, you know, acouple of square miles really.
And if there was a better, youknow, if there was better.
Dope.
A bit of heroin, like a fewmiles down the road.
That was like a holiday, youknow, that was like a day out,
you know?
Um, and then now I've had thisopportunity.
I was, you know, really thankingGod for that actually.
Like, it's like I've had thisopportunity to see, you know,
see some amazing places, youknow, and, and I think
(08:36):
Mississippi.
I, I think Mississippi gets abad rap, rather Americans.
I, I thought it was, oh, youknow, I really enjoyed my time
there, but one of the things Idid when I was there was I, I
went to, I went to church there,right?
And, um, I think what I notice,what do I notice about church in
Mississippi?
There's a lot of it.
Yeah.
There's a lot of it.
(08:56):
Yeah.
And you know, like, and some ofthe, you know, some of the
driving past, some of thechurches were like driving past
a small town.
There was like, you know, likeseveral big buildings all
connected.
And then another building overhere and another building over
here.
But it was all one church, youknow, on a huge plot of land.
So I really noticed that.
But we went to, um, you all knowwhere this is Pat?
(09:16):
I can't.
It was a Baptist church.
It was next to a high school,right?
Temple Baptist Church.
Yeah, I believe so.
That sounds very familiar.
And out kind of west of town.
Yeah, it's kind of on the wayout of town.
We were driving down the road,we were going through a crawfish
boil.
A crawfish bowl, which was the,the Mississippi crayfish company
(09:38):
was, was down that road.
Right, right.
But did you eat the crawfish?
Yeah, man, I ate crawfish.
I went to a crawfish mall.
Oh, it's crawfish bowl.
Yeah, it was, but that's it.
It was an experience, man.
I went with a couple of guys.
There were big trucks, there wasa lot of talk about guns, and we
ate crawfish, you know, andhonestly, I loved every minute
(09:59):
of it.
Now I still have, I have abaseball cat, a ball cap from
the Mississippi Crayfishcompany, which, uh, is, it was a
cool, it's a nice, a nicememory.
But anyway, on that road,that's, we getting back to the,
the matter at hand was, um.
Was this in this church?
And it was the scale of it, pat,right?
It was like, so there was thisenormous parking lot.
(10:20):
There were people directing youto where to park.
There were different entrancesfor different, there was the
student entrance, you know, andthe, the kind of regular people
entrance.
And from walking in there waslike a, a massive corridor
around the central auditorium.
But the only place I've seenthat over here.
(10:40):
He's in stadiums, you know,like, you know, like where you
have that kind of, you know, a,a a, a space that is so big you
need to build another spacearound it in order to figure out
how to access it, you know, butlike, so, you know, in different
entrance, six direct traffic infront of it, they, there's
actually a, a, a police officerwill be out in front on Sunday
mornings direct.
(11:01):
Tr traffic.
Yeah.
'cause of the sheer volume ofpeople going there.
Right.
And, um, you know, so I rememberwalking in and they had, I have
seen it over here actually in,interestingly in very small
churches for, for, for differentreasons, but like in this huge
church.
So they had that kind ofcommunion to go, so like a
little pot of grape juice with alittle, with a, a little wafer
(11:21):
sealed in the top, you know?
So, so have you done that in,have you done that in, in
England?
I have seen it in England since.
But what, I'll tell you where Isaw it in England, it was sort
of like they had like theopposite, um, situation that
they, because it was such asmall church, it was a little
Pentecostal church in, in, insouthwest London, near where I
lived for a short time.
(11:42):
Um, and um, so because thecongregation was so small, eight
or 10 people, they, they did itlike that.
Right?
'cause you know, it made moresense, I guess, than.
Than having the, the full sortof setup, but yeah.
But in this church, obviouslyit's because the volume is so
huge of people, right?
So if you, if you did ittraditionally with the table and
(12:03):
the bread all the way throughand, you know, the, the goblet
of, of wine, the blood ofChrist, right?
Then, then obviously it wouldtake the whole day to, to to, to
get to everyone, right?
But so walked in communion to goon the way in.
And then walked into the mainkind of auditorium and like
there's just rows and rows androws and rows of seats.
(12:25):
Like cinema seats, like movietheater seats, right?
Like, and then this huge stage.
And then there's like thegallery upstairs, which I think
was where the students were.
And like it was just this likephenomenal space, like so big,
right?
And um.
The production values, you know,the way that, you know, the band
(12:45):
was set up and, and all thatkind of stuff was, you know,
like it was like being at aconcert.
So, so yeah, that was, it wasthe scale.
And then when it came tocommunion for the, the, the
congregation to take communion,it was a bit like, do you have
Rice Krispies over there?
Do you know what Rice Krispiesare?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Snap Crack little pot kids.
(13:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You ate the Rice Krispies and atthe end you had a, you had, you
had milk in a big glob of sugar.
Yeah.
But when you, but you remembersnack, snap, crackle and pop.
Yeah.
You pour.
So when everyone's opening thethings, it was like being, you
know, opening the littlecellophane wrappers with the.
(13:27):
The thing, it was like beinginside a giant bowl of Rice
Krispies.
'cause all you can hear is thislike ch ch ch ch ch all over the
place.
I mean, that was the thingreally that impressed me about,
you know, it was awe inspiring,was just the scale of it really.
So I think you, I mean, look,Mississippi's Bible belt, right?
So like you've got a really highconcentration of believers
(13:47):
there, right?
Um, so yeah, just the number ofpeople like church was very much
an a part.
Of everyday life there.
Whereas over here it's not likethat, you know, there is a
revival and like our, ouryounger people are Gen Z, like,
you know, they're, they're moreof them are going to church than
(14:09):
I think, you know, for, for manydecades.
Right.
So there's this huge revival inthe church, which is probably
worth talking about why that is.
But, um.
Yeah.
That those, you know, that'scertainly, like, that was my
experience over there.
Yeah.
If you went long enough, youwould have, I actually do a bit
in my comedy show about thosecommunion cups, because if you
(14:29):
go long enough, you're gonnahave one Sunday morning where
they get a batch of those cupsthat won't open.
And so, you know, they doingcommunion, the spirit's moving,
and then we're, and then thepastor tells everyone to open
and nobody can get, can get thecup open, you know, the little
(14:49):
plastic top on it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody starts strugglingon it, and then the pastor has
to get up and make anannouncement.
It's like, okay, uh, we'rehaving a little trouble with,
uh, with our.
With our communion cups.
Uh, if we could have one of thewomen, any of the women on the
aisles have a file, if you couldjust pop that and pass it on
down and it's, uh, you know, wehad to try a different vendor.
(15:13):
We, you know, try to save somemoney.
If everybody was tithingproperly, we wouldn't have to do
this.
It's just, oh, it's just like,it's a whole, a whole episode
and then people are passingtheir, you know, passing the
fall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To passing the files around todig in and you know, in Catholic
churches they do the actual, um,communion where they.
(15:38):
In the Catholic church, youbetter not be a germophobe
because my wife is a germophobeand we attended a wedding at a
Catholic church and we get up togo down to go do communion and
we all come, you know, andinstead of sitting in the chair,
we all, you go down along thething and then the priest gets
up and he pours it into agoblet.
Is that what you had chaliceAlice Goblet?
(16:00):
Yeah.
All came from me.
You know, pours it in there,gives it to the first person,
the first person drinks it, andI'm thinking, boy, they're gonna
need an awful lot of goblets.
No, he wipes it, hands it, youknow, pours it and hands it to
the next.
Catholic church does do, uh,they still do the actual thing,
but like you said, in a churchthat size, you're not going to.
(16:24):
You know, you'd be there allday.
Yeah.
Did you notice?
See, one of the things that, atchurches in America is you have,
you'll have a school, like Ihave a granddaughter.
She goes to pre-K at the Baptistchurch in a town about 30 miles
away.
So they probably have a, apreschool at the Temple Baptist.
What you didn't see, they alsohave a gem.
(16:46):
Did you see that?
No.
No.
I didn't see a gym.
No.
If you would've looked on theback.
They have a basketball gym, theyhave workout facilities.
They have people like that'swhere they go to the gym.
Is is there.
But that is, uh, I don't saythat's the exception.
Those are, those huge churchesare all over the place.
But there's all different typechurches.
(17:08):
Churches that you passed on theway up there.
Uh, all did they have the coffeeshop?
Yes.
Yeah, they had a coffee shop.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I've never, because I've neverbeen in the, maybe, I mean, I'm
a lot of these really bigchurches, but I don't go out
where the coffee shop is.
I've just wondered, do they havelike Lazarus.
(17:29):
Latte or something out therejust to kind of pick you up and
get, you, get you through the,the, get you through the sermon.
Uh, forgive him.
Forgive him, Lord.
He knows not what he does.
No, it's just, well, it's acoffee thing.
I, you know, I, the Catholics dohave, have you ever, in all your
trips to New York, did you evergo in St.
(17:50):
Patrick's Cathedral?
Uh, no.
No, I haven't.
I've seen it.
I've walked past it, but Inever, I never went in there.
Yeah, you ought to go in there.
Just a beautiful, althoughyou're from England, so you're
not all by the magnificentbuildings like I am.
You know, you've got, I guess,what's the one that's been
there?
700 something years?
Oh, we've got Westminster Abbey.
Yeah, we've got some St.
(18:11):
Paul's.
It's very beautiful.
At the weekend I was in SuffolkCathedral, which is just on the
other side of the Thames, whichis, or do you know what I should
know?
I dunno how it is, but you walkin and it's, yeah, splendor,
statues, gold, you know?
Incredible.
It's just beautiful.
And St.
Patrick's Cathedral, I've goneinto, um.
(18:34):
Just, you know, to go in to seeit.
It's just this beautiful thing.
And then sometimes, like when Iwas in New York, I would walk up
and down, uh, sixth Avenue andit would get really cold in the
wintertime and I could slip intoto St.
Patrick's Cathedral, even thoughI'm not Catholic.
But they have like a full fledgegift shop in there.
And I was you.
(18:55):
Me, I, I couldn't help it.
I stuck my head in there.
I'm like, what are, what arey'all selling in here?
Popsicles or Y'all got any pope?
I was like, you can laugh atthat, Richard.
I have done that in a Catholicchurch.
And the, it was, and the nunsdied.
The nuns died laughing.
It's every time I do that, everytime I do that, people look at
(19:17):
me.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
What is, but oh, they actuallyhad, um, little pub soaps.
Little Pope on the rope in thegift shop.
I'm not making up.
No, they, they didn't.
I I am not making it up.
Patrick McCall.
I am not making it up.
I'm gonna, I'm not gonna lie onthe podcast about bringing
(19:41):
people to Jesus.
They do.
I believe you, man.
I believe you.
You're a little too young toremember this, but, uh, we used
to get, in the seventies you hadsoap on a rope.
I just about remember soap on arope?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just about remember half oneEnglish leather, obviously it
was an English thing calledEnglish leather.
(20:02):
And you got your, you had likesome cologne and aftershave and
then you had soap on a rope.
And I got it when I was like 12years old.
That's what I thought.
I'd just become a man.
I got it.
One Christmas morning I got soapon a rope, you know, like my
brother.
But I, I didn't realize thatyou, you hung it around the top
of the shower.
(20:23):
And then took it off to washwith.
I thought it was like amedallion, you know, you put it
on your head and walked aroundlike, here I am.
Like you in a gang.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I'm soaked on a rope, man.
Just, but they, they, and I'mclean from the neck up'cause I
hadn't figured out I can takethis thing off from Austin.
Thank you.
(20:43):
And, and wash, yeah, and washthe rest down me, but I'm
looking good up here.
But they did, they had little,,they had little pope soaps and
they did.
The nuns laughed at that.
I've performed in a lot ofCatholic churches.
Matter of fact, one time Iscared my wife to death'cause I
called her and said, how'd theshow go?
I said, I killed the nuns.
She's like, oh my god.
(21:05):
Finally happened.
Pat's gone postal.
Yeah.
Two.
I was like, no, no nuns.
No.
The nuns loved me.
It's just a term.
I went to, I went to a Catholicchurch in Hattiesburg as well.
I went to a Catholic church, afriend of mine, he, he hadn't
been to Mass for a while.
He wanted to go.
He, he asked if, if I'll go withhim.
And, um, it's not mydenomination, but you know, the
(21:27):
Lord is the Lord.
And, um, and also, you know,it's like to turn around and
say, oh no, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna go with you'cause it's
not my, it's not my thing.
We sort of seemed kind of likethe opposite of, of, you know
what this is about.
So I went with him and it wasthe, the difference there.
It was a lot brighter.
It was a lot brighter than, um,Catholic churches here.
(21:49):
Um, it was just.
Same, very much the same sort ofservice.
Um, but yeah, it was brighter.
There was a, a brightness to itthat we don't have so much over
here because a lot of ourchurches are obviously kind of
predate, um, like America inits, you know, current form.
So, so it tends to be a littlebit more austere, um, whereas
(22:14):
this, it was modern, it wasbright.
It was, but I'll tell you whereit was.
It was by, um.
What's the big university youhave there in Hattiesburg?
University of SouthernMississippi.
Yeah.
It was just, it was oppositethere.
It was opposite there.
Uh, was there a baseball fieldright beside it?
Yes.
Yes, yes, there was.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:35):
Yeah.
That's Saint.
Uh, I know the one I, I know theone you're talking about.
Yeah.
That that's been there for, fora long time.
But there's several Catholicchurches.
There's a Catholic school, youknow, that was, you tend to
stereotype and, and when you andI met, I was assuming all church
in England was.
(22:55):
Was very similar, I thought, youknow, that you just, just what
you've seen on tv, WestminsterAbbey and you know, you've seen
the priest and the robes andthen you sent me a video of the
church and people just praisingand it looked like most churches
in America, it was just peoplein there.
It was almost like it was a,just a building.
(23:16):
It wasn't even really a statelychurch, which No, no, that's,
so, that's soul survivor.
That's, um.
A church.
I have been attending a lotrecently.
I'm still.
Not, I'm not a hundred percentsure it's my home just yet, but,
uh, there's a lot of, there's alot of amazing things about it.
But they, uh, yeah, it's just ina WA warehouse, so it's just,
(23:40):
it's like a little threewarehouses joined together.
They do a lot of cool stuff.
They've got, they've got acoffee shop.
They do a, they a lot of stufffor the youth and for the kids,
but they also, they're a music,they're a Christian music label
as well, so they put a lot ofmusic out, so they have.
Uh, you know, it's a big,bright, modern worship filled
experience there.
(24:01):
Um, yeah.
Which is, I mean, it is, it isgood.
Like it, it, it's, you know,it's, it's full of praise and
worship it sometimes, I dunno.
You tell me what you think aboutthis Pat.
Right.
This was a point that someonemade to me before, but it's like
when we worship, right.
It's for him.
Right.
We are, we're, we are worshipinghim.
(24:22):
Right.
And then what can happen?
This is how it was explained tome, and it's something I
recognize in myself.
It's like, you know, when we goto those huge, big, brightly
lit, emotive experiences, it'slike, it actually, it can become
about us.
Oh, this feels good.
You know, it feels good becauseI'm, I'm here and I, you know, I
get the tingles and it's, youknow, it's, you know, it's this,
(24:47):
someone says to me, you can endup worshiping that experience,
you know, rather than worshipinghim.
And I, I really.
I took something for that.
Something I've kind of thoughtabout, but a lot of times in
the, you know, in the, in thetime that I've been a believer,
it's like that, you know what,making sure that we're
worshiping the right thing.
You know, what you're saying islike when you go to the big
production, you kind of thinkit's like the production's there
(25:10):
more for you and then you'reinstead of their worshiping, is
that what you're saying?
Yeah, exactly.
It, it comes about the vibe.
You worshiping the vibe.
Sorry, go on.
No, go ahead.
Well, you worship the vibe.
Yeah.
You know, you worship the,that's what I was gonna say.
Yeah.
Like it's, you know, and someonesuggested to me actually
there's, you know, there's adanger that you could fall into
idolatry there'cause you're notactually worshiping what you're
(25:32):
supposed to be worshiping.
Um, but yeah, there's a lot ofgreat things about that church.
I mean, Hillsong, right?
If we talk about Hillsong,right.
Obviously Hillsong's come in,but, you know, there's been a
lot of controversy aroundHillsong.
Right.
But, um.
Sorry, you broke up a littleHillsong.
(25:52):
Say again Pat, I, I thought isHills Strong?
Is Hillsong is based out ofAustralia.
Yeah.
So, but we have them in Englandas well.
Yeah.
And like obviously they, theyput on a huge, you know, they
put on a, a great show.
Right.
Um, and, and it's a lot of thatvibe there.
No, I think it's something, youknow, that.
(26:14):
Pitfall is, you can fall intothat Hillsong.
But I took a lad, like a, a, a,a, a guy to um, to Hillsong and
like he, he gave his life toJesus there.
Right.
And there was something aboutthat experience, something
(26:36):
within that experience.
It just, it hooked him in, youknow?
And, and I know a lot of peoplethat have got the cost of that.
Because of that kind of worshipexperience, whatev, you know,
whatever it is that's beingworshiped, it, it's attractive
to people, you know?
And it was attractive to him andhe gave his life to Jesus.
And for, and for me, Hillsongwas definitely a way in their
music.
You know?
(26:56):
It was definitely a way in.
And then I, I realized laterthat actually I, from a church,
I wanted something a bitdifferent, but Hillsong was a
way in.
So, you know, just, I mean, it'sjust something, it's just
something I think aboutsometimes, you know, is that,
you know, within that.
Huge brightly lit production ofan experience.
Like, yeah, all, maybe it can beidolatry, but like if it brings
(27:18):
people to him, is it, who knows?
I don't have all the answers,but.
Say when you were talking aboutthe big church, it's what, first
off, you and I both agree, it iswhatever works, whatever brings
someone to Jesus, whether it'sthe big production, whether it's
the big people will come and,and, you know, and the, the
(27:40):
worship music, it's a lot of,it's great music.
Um, but do you know that that isnot the majority of the churches
in America?
The majority of the churches inAmerica are the ones you passed
on the way that you didn't evennotice.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
The majority of churches have200 or less people and they're
(28:01):
pastored by people like thechurch I go to, uh, destiny
Church in Hattiesburg,Mississippi, pastored by Don
Hooper.
Fantastic guy.
This church is in a converted,it's in a strip mall, kind of
like where you went.
You know, you're not drivingdown the road seeing the big
cathedral.
You have to pull up in there.
And it's a con converted stripmall that they've had to go in
(28:23):
and they do the work.
A lot of these guys, thesepastors,'cause people think, oh,
these pastors are in it for themoney and their stuff.
These pastors and most of thesechurches, uh, the majority of
churches, the 200 or less.
They have day jobs or they'reworking or they're constantly
working, you know, around theclock.
I did a show for a pastor namedWill Lot out in Butte,
(28:46):
Mississippi, a little smalltown.
We drive out there and I'm gonnawait before I go out and do my
show and speak and.
He tells me to, uh, here, youcan wait in my office.
Well, I walk in a minute.
I'm like, oh, you said it.
Wait in your office.
I'm like, I'm in the, I'm in theutility room because it's just
full of ladders and paint, youknow, and hammers and chainsaw.
(29:08):
He's like, no, that's my office.
In other words, that was theguy's office because he spent
his time working.
He helped build around thechurch.
He helped fix, it wasn't thisglorious production, but it was
a church that just made such adifference in people's lives.
It, uh.
You know, they, they have thingsfor children.
They, it's a, you know what Imean?
It's a family.
Something happens to somebody.
(29:30):
That pastor's there, there's acommunity that you can go to and
I tell people, um.
When I run into people that arejust really lonely or lost or I
messed up and you know, I don'thave family or I don't have
this, they don't really realizethat you go to that church, you
go to those smaller type church.
They're not small.
They're still nice sizedchurches, but they're not the
(29:53):
big glorious churches with themassive productions.
But you go to those, good chanceyou're going to.
Meet a family, you're gonna meetpeople they meet on Wednesday
night, they meet on Sundaynight.
They meet, uh, you know,obviously have church on Sunday
morning, but it kind of becomesa family and that is, um.
(30:13):
That's the majority of whatchurches are in America.
You don't see it because you seepeople see what's on tv.
You see the big glorious thing.
You don't see the guy that's outthere that's just, that works as
hard as he can.
His wife is a part of whateverhe's doing.
Uh, everything is in there.
I remember going over and doingthe, uh, one of the first times
(30:33):
I performed at a church, prettynice sized church, and they were
paying me some money and I waslike, well.
What are we gonna give the soundguy and the this, you know, and
she said, well, they just, theydo it'cause they love the Lord.
And I'm like, well that's, youknow, we, you know, wanted to
give'em something anyway.
But the point is, it's not thebig huge production.
It's the small, the smallerchurches make a really big
(30:54):
difference in people's lives.
And I don't, um.
Uh, you know, I don't if it'sthe big church, if it's'cause
you get a lot of younger peoplethat are going, maybe it's
because they, you know, theywant to,, they like a scene or a
vibe or a social type thing.
And there are churches, some ofthe big churches are social.
You know, it's a thing wherepeople get up and put their
suits on and go and you just,you know, that's, it's whatever,
(31:19):
you know, people like doing.
The point is.
It's about developing arelationship and following
Jesus.
And in, in America, the majorityof churches are 200 or something
or less.
And it's not easy being one ofthese pastors because there is a
social aspect to churches where,I mean, a guy, some of the
(31:39):
people that have been going to achurch for a long time and the
pastor could move a plant fromone side of the.
Like the altar or whatever tothe other side, half the church
will leave.
You know, I always like thatplant right there.
You, I mean, I'm exaggeratingjust a little bit.
Or you'll have the church whereyou have, you've got, you know,
(31:59):
the, this one sister that wantsto get up and sing it.
Every church that's, oh gosh,he's gonna let Cousin Mary get
up and sing and she, she can'tsing.
So there's always that littlething that, kind of going on
and, in some of the churches,but it is the smaller type
churches where it's the majorityof what you don't see it when
(32:19):
you're in America.
So it's not just the big, youknow, the big glorious type, uh,
type churches.
And the, uh, oh, and I'll tellyou one thing.
If any pastors are listening,uh, because I was just thinking
I don't, have you ever been tochurch service where they, where
you guys start holding hands?
Uh, no.
Not a whole hand, hand, handholding.
(32:41):
Well,, it's a thing that canhappen over here.
The pastor will, I wanteverybody to hold hands.
We're all gonna join in prayer.
I just, lemme give a little wordof advice to any pastors out
there.
Let's not be holding hands withstrangers.
Nobody's thinking of the HolySpirit moving.
Nobody's even thinking of whatyou're saying.
You're holding the hand ofsomebody next to you and all
(33:01):
you're thinking of is, am Isqueezing this woman's hand too
hard?
She think I'm coming on to her.
Am I not squeezing it hardenough?
Does she think I don't like her?
Or did this guy just come out ofthe bathroom?
But it's a, it's a thing wherepeople will join hands.
If you're a pastor out there,let's not do, let's not do the
hand holding any anymore becauseeverybody in there is totally
(33:23):
creeped out about it.
Um, more reserved than.
You know, like sharing thepeace.
You do that, right?
Yeah.
It'll be, there'll often be likea calling in church to kind of
turn to your neighbor and like,just you'd say like, peace be
(33:46):
with you, you know, but, butit's soul survival.
What they do is, um, the churchI mentioned earlier, they, uh.
If they ask you to go and talkto someone, go and talk to
someone like, and, um, so, and,and that, you know, that can
feel kind of awkward.
You know, you approach astranger, you know, hi, how are
you?
But, oh, I've had some lovelyconversations doing that.
You know, really lovelyconversations.
(34:06):
Just bowing up to a strangerand, you know, just, you know,
how long have you been cominghere?
You know, how long we've been abeliever, you know, that's,
that's a nice thing.
I like that.
See, you and I, that's anotherthing that we've discussed in
the past when we first startedgoing to church.
Uh, I wasn't used to it.
And that is a thing that, thatthe beginning of most churches
(34:27):
that I go to, the pastor comesup, he reads a script, you know,
he reads a scripture or, uh,welcomes everybody and says, now
turn to your neighbor and walkaround and greet somebody and
greet fa, you know?
But what happens is the peoplethat know each other will all go
greet each other.
So the person that's just therefor the first time.
(34:51):
Doesn't know anybody, you know,and it can be, it can be a
little awkward, but they do dothat.
You know, it's just a normal,all right, turn around and say
hello to your neighbor.
By the same token, I have beento churches where you'll see
that person that understandsthat and they'll seek you out,
and that's where you meetfriends.
They'll come on their go, seethat person is over there.
A lot of people will turn,there's a social aspect to
church.
(35:11):
People will turn and they'reimmediately gonna go say hello
to their friends.
But if you're new to the churchwhen you first walked in there,
you're kind of sitting therelike now is when it's obvious
that I don't know anybody that'sin here.
So you're just kind of standingthere waiting to, but there's
usually somebody that will comeover, like, probably what
happens in Soul Survivor and,hi, I, so-and-so, and kind of
(35:32):
welcome you to the church.
And then you become, you kind ofknow who that person is from
that point forward.
But I'm not talking about that,that does happen.
I'm just talking about thisthing in the church that I
always, that it's the pastorwill be whatever the message is.
Let's everyone join hands'causewe're gonna join hands.
Richard, I.
Because we're joining in prayerand, and we're joining in and
(35:56):
connecting the Holy Spiritthroughout the room, but we're
not doing any of that.
We are holding some bystranger's hand, and most of it,
or most of us are creeped outabout.
I'm just, I'm just.
Telling pastors out there,you're holding some, you're
holding a stranger's hand.
And, that's not the thing wherepeople walk around and do that.
(36:18):
But see, in England, I thought.
So the churches like Westminsterare things like that.
They just are those Protestantchurches?
Uh, well we have Church ofEngland over here, which is that
which split off from the, yeah.
Catholic.
Yeah.
So, uh, yes, it would beProtestant.
(36:40):
Yeah.
Um, and then we have a lot,well, we have a lot of, so a lot
of our church buildings are abit older.
Obviously though the kind ofmore modern churches are in the,
are definitely in the minority,you know.
Um, but yeah, so our churchestend to, you know, there's a lot
of very old church buildingsthat we have.
Very beautiful.
(37:02):
The revival that you spokeabout.
'cause I've heard of that thereis a revival that seems to be
going on in England.
Yeah.
And in the past it, you hear,and I, and is there not
persecution, discriminationmaybe is like, I know there
might be a revival, but itseemed like it had gotten to a
(37:22):
point when England, when,following Jesus wasn't that cool
and that wasn't.
I mean, very much so, man.
It was like, there's a lot ofchurches closed.
Um, I dunno the statistics, butthere was definitely like they
were talking for, for, but whatseemed like a long time the
church attendance was, was, wasdiminishing like year on year.
(37:44):
So there's quite a lot of emptychurches, which is very sad.
Um, where the congregation justdwindled to the point it wasn't
sustainable.
Or you might have had threechurches that were sharing, one
pastor or vicar, you know,whatever you wanna call like,
'cause.
There just wasn't you, therewasn't enough tithing to support
(38:07):
like a church having its own,its own minister.
So that was all very sad.
But yeah, they're saying there'sbeen this, the statistics are,
there's been this huge revival,uh, particularly in Gen Z, um,
where like, you know, churchattendance is going up and up
and up and up and it might.
When I'm in Oxford, the church Iattend is called St.
Al Day's, which is a fantasticchurch.
(38:28):
Um, and they had, they said theywere, they were experiencing,
people were just coming in andsaying, I don't really know what
I'm doing here, but like, Ijust, I just felt like this was
where I'm supposed to be.
And they had, um, I think theyhad 39 people give their life to
Jesus in one service, you know?
Yeah.
(38:48):
I mean, I know, right?
You know, it's like, what?
What an amazing thing.
And they evangelize.
It's an, you know, it's a churchthat goes out into the community
and evangelizes, but not like, Imean, 39 people in one service
and people walking in just offthe street.
Just like, I just got led here.
I don't really know why, buthere I am.
You know, it's, it's reallysomething.
(39:11):
You talk about the Church ofEngland, England, the, just the
country of England, ha hasplayed such an important part in
Christianity for, you know, thebible that most people read was
translated in England.
You had, uh, do you ever read onum, CS Lewis?
Of course.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
(39:32):
Yeah.
CS Lewis was British a token Jr.
Token was British.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oxford.
In Oxford.
I grew up.
What's that?
Well, St.
Louis was at Oxford, wasn't he?
Was Oxford University when his,yeah, his was, I mean, I don't
even know, was it Tolkien?
But like, was one of his, um,one of his fellow students said,
(39:53):
like CS Lewis said to him, whydo you believe in God?
He was, you know, and he said,oh, get the tingles.
Just saying that.
And then his, you know, hisfellow students said, you're an
academic man, do your research.
Do you know what I mean?
And then he, he took himself offand read everything and then
just came to the point of viewthat it's like you can't argue
with the existence of got.
(40:13):
And he did lot.
The way he positions theargument.
It's really quite extraordinary.
Like if anyone's listening andthey're exploring faith reading,
um, mere Christianity is areally good place to start.
Say that again.
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
Yeah, that's a really good placeto start.
I never knew I, I didn't know hewas British.
(40:35):
I didn't know he was English.
I mean, I've heard CS Lewis allmy life ever since I've been a
Christian.
I've heard, well, CS Lewis.
I was like, well this is one ofthe most brilliant men and, uh.
It was something you and I werediscussing with Thomas CS Lewis.
Was, was English and he was anatheist, wasn't he?
He was, yes.
And he had that like, well, youmight almost call like an
academic conversion, you know,he, he assessed all of the
(40:58):
evidence and all of the writingsand the biblical text and
everything from then on, andcame to the conclusion not that,
um, that Jesus was a man thatwalks on the earth, which is
historically kind of.
Very, you know, almostimpossible to argue with, right?
That a man called Jesus workedthe earth at that time.
But he came to the conclusionthat the argument for the
(41:22):
existence of God and Jesus beingthe son of God was, and you
couldn't argue against it, youknow?
And, um, and the way he writesabout it is just, you know,
it's, it's amazing.
I, I, you know, he reallyinspired, he inspired me,
serious.
Lewis inspired me towards mytheological studies.
He, he gives this beautifulanalogy of, um, he says, it's
(41:43):
like if you're walking down, youknow, along the beach, you know,
like down the shoreline, right?
And um, you can, you can seethis ama, you can see the sea
and it stretches out and it'samazing.
And the sun sparkling off it andthe waves and it's so vast.
And, you know, you have thisexperience, this awe inspiring
experience and it's verybeautiful.
But that's all it'll ever be isthe experience.
(42:05):
Yeah.
But he said if you look at amap.
A map, you are never gonna getthat same experience out a map.
You never will.
Yeah.
It's a map.
It's a bit of paper with someimages on it that represent
something, but said, without themap, you'll never navigate that.
C.
All you'll ever be, you'llalways just be limited to that
experience.
And he said, that's whattheology is.
Theology is the map that allowsyou to navigate and go deeper
(42:28):
into that experience.
And that's certainly been my.
My experience of, of, you know,the limit, the very diffraction
of theology, theological studiesthat I've done so far.
It's just that like, it's likeyou can't help but deepen, or
for me, it deepened my faith.
I know for some it can be, itcan be challenging, um,
(42:49):
unpacking things in that way,but for me it's been like a,
just a, a much richer, um,journey into, into my, into my
belief, into my faith.
And that was all thanks to CSLewis.
Okay.
That's awesome.
I've just been reading on it.
Well, whatever's happened, thejourney that both of us on has
(43:12):
led us to, has led us tohappiness and joy and, uh, we're
gonna kinda leave it here.
Oh, and as far as the British orconcerned you would think it'd
be a revival because we all grewup thinking.
Jesus was British.
The disciples were British.
I thought Jesus looked likeRobert Powell, the actor,
because every movie they haveBritish accents.
(43:33):
Even the chosen now, the chosen,the new series that's out all
British.
That's, yeah.
Well, if we think about it, uh,you know, the translation of the
Bible, the invention of printingpress.
Yeah.
Yes.
CS Lewis.
I mean, I guess if I was gonnasum all of that up in two words,
pat, for for our Americanlisteners, it would be You are
(43:56):
welcome.
Well, that's what I was doing,Richard.
I was, I was giving you acompliment and showing you my
admiration, for you Brits, andobviously you had already
accepted it before I said it.
(44:16):
So, so now that we've had anexercise in humility, let's see.
Alright, well look, it was goodto see you.
I appreciate you coming in late,uh, late today'cause we had to
kind of squeeze this in.
So, uh, alright man.
Well God bless everybody outthere and uh, Richard, I will
see you next week.
You will indeed.
Thank you very much PatrickMcCall.
(44:38):
Alright, take care.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
Bye.
Alright.
Good afternoon, Richard.
Good morning, pat.
Is it actually morning overthere or you just, you know,
man, it, this, this evening?
It's the evening time.
Just, well, you, I know youthink I've throwing you off
because normally it's morningover here, but we had to go a
(00:41):
little late today, to getstarted, so, oh, of course.
It actually isn't the morningfor you is it's the afternoon.
Just about right.
It's lunch.
Yeah.
Do you have, do you have clockswith hands on or do you just
have the ones with numbers?
No, we don't have, the littlehand is on, the little hand is
on the 12.
The big hand.
(01:01):
No, we have the clocks.
As a matter of fact, most of myclocks are made in Britain.
I dunno what It's my, yeah.
My wife buys these clocks thatthey're Britney or something,
but they're mostly made.
She bought a whole bunch of'em.
They're made in Britain.
Will you be able to get thatwith the tariffs?
Now there'll be like a milliondollars, wouldn't they?
No, we've already got'em.
(01:22):
All we have to do is keepreplacing batteries.
Okay.
Which is the thing, my wife islike a clock freak and she has
clocks all over the house and soshe has'em all over, like every
wall you look at, there's aclock.
The problem is they takebatteries and she buys the
batteries at Dollar Tree, whichis pound tree.
(01:44):
Isn't that what it's called?
Anyway, we, we have pound landand we have pound land, so Yeah.
But I'm aware of Dollar Tree.
I met when I was in Mississippi.
I met a woman who said shecould, she could do a, a week
shopping at the Dollar Tree.
Yeah.
So.
You can you just, the stuff youcan get in there, but calling
something I don't want to get,but calling something pound land
(02:06):
or pound tree in America wouldbe that.
You could have a whole differentconnotation.
So it's pro profit a good thing.
We've stuck with the, we'vestuck with the dollar tree
there, but yeah, it's a dollar.
Or now that inflation dollar$2550, you'd be amazed at stuff you
can rack up on in there.
But she gets the batteries andthe batteries aren't like the
(02:28):
best.
Maybe quality batteries.
I don't know.
So they kind of fade fairlyquick.
So the point I'm getting at isyou walk around my house, it's
like I'm in eight different timezones because the battery starts
fading.
You know, it's 10 o'clock overhere, it's 11.
I gotta meet Rich at 12.
Wait, which one of these clocksis.
(02:50):
Kind of close to the actualtime.
It's like you have the clock tohave the clock instead of to
actually tell the time.
So, so anyway, but it is lunch,so this is one of the few times.
So I guess you've had a long dayto, to squeeze it in.
Actually, I'm in a littletrouble it being lunchtime
because I know you've had acrack at marriage and you're
(03:11):
about to get married again.
But after 35, that's, that'svery diplomatically put Patrick.
Yes, that's correct.
Yeah.
I think I gave it a go.
Not very.
I should, I shouldn't laugh.
I not very successfully, butyes.
No, no.
I know it's not, I know it's notfunny.
I know you feel, I know.
But I think you would say had ago at it.
(03:33):
I did.
I had a go.
I gave it a shot.
I definitely gave it a shot.
Gave, gave it, gave it a shot.
Well, my wife had given it ashot before sh before she.
You know, before she landed me,so 35 years later.
Yeah, I told you before I gotmarried, big fish.
(03:56):
She, we, we lived, we, it was,yeah.
She, she had no idea it was, uh,actually we worked for the same
company and I kept hearing aboutthis woman that was the state
administrator.
In Jackson, the Capitol, andthey.
(04:16):
Were telling me how attractivethis woman was and I was still a
bit of a shallow how person backat the time, you know, I've been
fighting it all my life.
But, you know, I was like, likeone guy, a boss I had one time,
he said, pat wants somebody tomake him look good.
So if they're telling me thatthis girl is looking, but bottom
line is they turned out, uh.
(04:38):
It, it was right because I'dcome home from work one day and
the guy that was my districtmanager at the time called up
and said, you need to come downto the office.
I'm like, man, I've been out inthe country.
I'm tired.
I'm, I've already got my tieoff.
He said, you gotta come on down.
He was a friend of mine and hekept telling me, come on down,
come on down.
And I'm like, I'm not coming.
Finally, he said, you, youbetter come on down.
(04:59):
And um, I said, all right, I'mgonna come down there.
I said, but when I get downthere.
Christie Brinkley better besitting on that couch.
I, he said, all right, come ondown.
Well, actually, he was a countryguy, so he was like a, come on
down.
So I drive down there and I walkin the door and he said, pat
(05:23):
McCool meet Christie Brinkleyand points over to the couch and
is the most beautiful woman I'dever seen in my life.
And I immediately think.
Way outta my league, but I throwsomething out, you know, I kind
of make a comment and, uh, andthen she responds and I'm
thinking, wait a second, thiswoman is actually talking to me.
(05:44):
And, uh, it turned out,whatever, you know, whatever I
was, was slinging.
She was buying.
And within a hundred days we gotmarried, as I told you, in a
double wide trailer.
By a guy that I used to workwith about 45 minutes out in the
country, and the guy went outand, um, showed us his goats and
his mules, and we picked up abox of Kentucky Fried Chicken
(06:08):
and headed home.
35.
I had to move in.
I had to seal the deal beforeshe realized I didn't have a
fortune stashed in the Caymans.
And I really hadn't, you know,rescued children from a burning
building or whatever.
I told her the first night thatwe met.
So, but what I was getting atwas after 35 years of marriage,
(06:28):
you listen to your spouse, butyou listen for tone.
If it's an emerging emergencytone, you.
You hone in, but if it's justregular talk monotone, you might
not hear it as much.
So you get I, my wife wascooking something and we had
like some french fries left overfrom the weekend or whatever and
(06:50):
she said, do you want any frenchfries?
I said, no, I'm sick of frenchfries.
And she screams back, you'resick of my big fat thighs.
I was like, no, I didn't sayanything about your big fat
thighs.
She said, so you're saying you,I have big fat thighs.
I just, I don't know if that'sever happened to you.
(07:11):
I just grabbed my stuff andheaded up the stairs and I will.
Yeah.
Well, I'm, I'm familiar withthat kind of, um, communication
breakdown.
Definitely.
I think that's trans, that'stransatlantic for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, hopefully I'll stay uphere talking to you long enough
that it'll have let thingssimmer down.
Yeah.
(07:31):
It'll have moved on by the timethat I get back down so Well,
anyway, today we've been meaningto talk about this, we want to
talk about the.
The difference between church inEngland and America, and I have
never been in a church inEngland, obviously.
So if you would go first and youhave been in American and
(07:53):
American churches, so if youwanna start by te telling us
your experiences.
Yeah, I mean, when I was inMississippi Zippy pack when we
met, right?
Um, I was thinking about thisthe other day actually, like
the, you know, I was, um.
You know, I was a drug addict asyou know, right.
So like my, my world for manyyears was very small, you know,
very, very small.
Right.
(08:13):
You know, it was, you know, acouple of square miles really.
And if there was a better, youknow, if there was better.
Dope.
A bit of heroin, like a fewmiles down the road.
That was like a holiday, youknow, that was like a day out,
you know?
Um, and then now I've had thisopportunity.
I was, you know, really thankingGod for that actually.
Like, it's like I've had thisopportunity to see, you know,
see some amazing places, youknow, and, and I think
(08:36):
Mississippi.
I, I think Mississippi gets abad rap, rather Americans.
I, I thought it was, oh, youknow, I really enjoyed my time
there, but one of the things Idid when I was there was I, I
went to, I went to church there,right?
And, um, I think what I notice,what do I notice about church in
Mississippi?
There's a lot of it.
Yeah.
There's a lot of it.
(08:56):
Yeah.
And you know, like, and some ofthe, you know, some of the
driving past, some of thechurches were like driving past
a small town.
There was like, you know, likeseveral big buildings all
connected.
And then another building overhere and another building over
here.
But it was all one church, youknow, on a huge plot of land.
So I really noticed that.
But we went to, um, you all knowwhere this is Pat?
(09:16):
I can't.
It was a Baptist church.
It was next to a high school,right?
Temple Baptist Church.
Yeah, I believe so.
That sounds very familiar.
And out kind of west of town.
Yeah, it's kind of on the wayout of town.
We were driving down the road,we were going through a crawfish
boil.
A crawfish bowl, which was the,the Mississippi crayfish company
(09:38):
was, was down that road.
Right, right.
But did you eat the crawfish?
Yeah, man, I ate crawfish.
I went to a crawfish mall.
Oh, it's crawfish bowl.
Yeah, it was, but that's it.
It was an experience, man.
I went with a couple of guys.
There were big trucks, there wasa lot of talk about guns, and we
ate crawfish, you know, andhonestly, I loved every minute
(09:59):
of it.
Now I still have, I have abaseball cat, a ball cap from
the Mississippi Crayfishcompany, which, uh, is, it was a
cool, it's a nice, a nicememory.
But anyway, on that road,that's, we getting back to the,
the matter at hand was, um.
Was this in this church?
And it was the scale of it, pat,right?
It was like, so there was thisenormous parking lot.
(10:20):
There were people directing youto where to park.
There were different entrancesfor different, there was the
student entrance, you know, andthe, the kind of regular people
entrance.
And from walking in there waslike a, a massive corridor
around the central auditorium.
But the only place I've seenthat over here.
(10:40):
He's in stadiums, you know,like, you know, like where you
have that kind of, you know, a,a a, a space that is so big you
need to build another spacearound it in order to figure out
how to access it, you know, butlike, so, you know, in different
entrance, six direct traffic infront of it, they, there's
actually a, a, a police officerwill be out in front on Sunday
mornings direct.
(11:01):
Tr traffic.
Yeah.
'cause of the sheer volume ofpeople going there.
Right.
And, um, you know, so I rememberwalking in and they had, I have
seen it over here actually in,interestingly in very small
churches for, for, for differentreasons, but like in this huge
church.
So they had that kind ofcommunion to go, so like a
little pot of grape juice with alittle, with a, a little wafer
(11:21):
sealed in the top, you know?
So, so have you done that in,have you done that in, in
England?
I have seen it in England since.
But what, I'll tell you where Isaw it in England, it was sort
of like they had like theopposite, um, situation that
they, because it was such asmall church, it was a little
Pentecostal church in, in, insouthwest London, near where I
lived for a short time.
(11:42):
Um, and um, so because thecongregation was so small, eight
or 10 people, they, they did itlike that.
Right?
'cause you know, it made moresense, I guess, than.
Than having the, the full sortof setup, but yeah.
But in this church, obviouslyit's because the volume is so
huge of people, right?
So if you, if you did ittraditionally with the table and
(12:03):
the bread all the way throughand, you know, the, the goblet
of, of wine, the blood ofChrist, right?
Then, then obviously it wouldtake the whole day to, to to, to
get to everyone, right?
But so walked in communion to goon the way in.
And then walked into the mainkind of auditorium and like
there's just rows and rows androws and rows of seats.
(12:25):
Like cinema seats, like movietheater seats, right?
Like, and then this huge stage.
And then there's like thegallery upstairs, which I think
was where the students were.
And like it was just this likephenomenal space, like so big,
right?
And um.
The production values, you know,the way that, you know, the band
(12:45):
was set up and, and all thatkind of stuff was, you know,
like it was like being at aconcert.
So, so yeah, that was, it wasthe scale.
And then when it came tocommunion for the, the, the
congregation to take communion,it was a bit like, do you have
Rice Krispies over there?
Do you know what Rice Krispiesare?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Snap Crack little pot kids.
(13:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You ate the Rice Krispies and atthe end you had a, you had, you
had milk in a big glob of sugar.
Yeah.
But when you, but you remembersnack, snap, crackle and pop.
Yeah.
You pour.
So when everyone's opening thethings, it was like being, you
know, opening the littlecellophane wrappers with the.
(13:27):
The thing, it was like beinginside a giant bowl of Rice
Krispies.
'cause all you can hear is thislike ch ch ch ch ch all over the
place.
I mean, that was the thingreally that impressed me about,
you know, it was awe inspiring,was just the scale of it really.
So I think you, I mean, look,Mississippi's Bible belt, right?
So like you've got a really highconcentration of believers
(13:47):
there, right?
Um, so yeah, just the number ofpeople like church was very much
an a part.
Of everyday life there.
Whereas over here it's not likethat, you know, there is a
revival and like our, ouryounger people are Gen Z, like,
you know, they're, they're moreof them are going to church than
(14:09):
I think, you know, for, for manydecades.
Right.
So there's this huge revival inthe church, which is probably
worth talking about why that is.
But, um.
Yeah.
That those, you know, that'scertainly, like, that was my
experience over there.
Yeah.
If you went long enough, youwould have, I actually do a bit
in my comedy show about thosecommunion cups, because if you
(14:29):
go long enough, you're gonnahave one Sunday morning where
they get a batch of those cupsthat won't open.
And so, you know, they doingcommunion, the spirit's moving,
and then we're, and then thepastor tells everyone to open
and nobody can get, can get thecup open, you know, the little
(14:49):
plastic top on it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And everybody starts strugglingon it, and then the pastor has
to get up and make anannouncement.
It's like, okay, uh, we'rehaving a little trouble with,
uh, with our.
With our communion cups.
Uh, if we could have one of thewomen, any of the women on the
aisles have a file, if you couldjust pop that and pass it on
down and it's, uh, you know, wehad to try a different vendor.
(15:13):
We, you know, try to save somemoney.
If everybody was tithingproperly, we wouldn't have to do
this.
It's just, oh, it's just like,it's a whole, a whole episode
and then people are passingtheir, you know, passing the
fall.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To passing the files around todig in and you know, in Catholic
churches they do the actual, um,communion where they.
(15:38):
In the Catholic church, youbetter not be a germophobe
because my wife is a germophobeand we attended a wedding at a
Catholic church and we get up togo down to go do communion and
we all come, you know, andinstead of sitting in the chair,
we all, you go down along thething and then the priest gets
up and he pours it into agoblet.
Is that what you had chaliceAlice Goblet?
(16:00):
Yeah.
All came from me.
You know, pours it in there,gives it to the first person,
the first person drinks it, andI'm thinking, boy, they're gonna
need an awful lot of goblets.
No, he wipes it, hands it, youknow, pours it and hands it to
the next.
Catholic church does do, uh,they still do the actual thing,
but like you said, in a churchthat size, you're not going to.
(16:24):
You know, you'd be there allday.
Yeah.
Did you notice?
See, one of the things that, atchurches in America is you have,
you'll have a school, like Ihave a granddaughter.
She goes to pre-K at the Baptistchurch in a town about 30 miles
away.
So they probably have a, apreschool at the Temple Baptist.
What you didn't see, they alsohave a gem.
(16:46):
Did you see that?
No.
No.
I didn't see a gym.
No.
If you would've looked on theback.
They have a basketball gym, theyhave workout facilities.
They have people like that'swhere they go to the gym.
Is is there.
But that is, uh, I don't saythat's the exception.
Those are, those huge churchesare all over the place.
But there's all different typechurches.
(17:08):
Churches that you passed on theway up there.
Uh, all did they have the coffeeshop?
Yes.
Yeah, they had a coffee shop.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I've never, because I've neverbeen in the, maybe, I mean, I'm
a lot of these really bigchurches, but I don't go out
where the coffee shop is.
I've just wondered, do they havelike Lazarus.
(17:29):
Latte or something out therejust to kind of pick you up and
get, you, get you through the,the, get you through the sermon.
Uh, forgive him.
Forgive him, Lord.
He knows not what he does.
No, it's just, well, it's acoffee thing.
I, you know, I, the Catholics dohave, have you ever, in all your
trips to New York, did you evergo in St.
(17:50):
Patrick's Cathedral?
Uh, no.
No, I haven't.
I've seen it.
I've walked past it, but Inever, I never went in there.
Yeah, you ought to go in there.
Just a beautiful, althoughyou're from England, so you're
not all by the magnificentbuildings like I am.
You know, you've got, I guess,what's the one that's been
there?
700 something years?
Oh, we've got Westminster Abbey.
Yeah, we've got some St.
(18:11):
Paul's.
It's very beautiful.
At the weekend I was in SuffolkCathedral, which is just on the
other side of the Thames, whichis, or do you know what I should
know?
I dunno how it is, but you walkin and it's, yeah, splendor,
statues, gold, you know?
Incredible.
It's just beautiful.
And St.
Patrick's Cathedral, I've goneinto, um.
(18:34):
Just, you know, to go in to seeit.
It's just this beautiful thing.
And then sometimes, like when Iwas in New York, I would walk up
and down, uh, sixth Avenue andit would get really cold in the
wintertime and I could slip intoto St.
Patrick's Cathedral, even thoughI'm not Catholic.
But they have like a full fledgegift shop in there.
And I was you.
(18:55):
Me, I, I couldn't help it.
I stuck my head in there.
I'm like, what are, what arey'all selling in here?
Popsicles or Y'all got any pope?
I was like, you can laugh atthat, Richard.
I have done that in a Catholicchurch.
And the, it was, and the nunsdied.
The nuns died laughing.
It's every time I do that, everytime I do that, people look at
(19:17):
me.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
What is, but oh, they actuallyhad, um, little pub soaps.
Little Pope on the rope in thegift shop.
I'm not making up.
No, they, they didn't.
I I am not making it up.
Patrick McCall.
I am not making it up.
I'm gonna, I'm not gonna lie onthe podcast about bringing
(19:41):
people to Jesus.
They do.
I believe you, man.
I believe you.
You're a little too young toremember this, but, uh, we used
to get, in the seventies you hadsoap on a rope.
I just about remember soap on arope?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just about remember half oneEnglish leather, obviously it
was an English thing calledEnglish leather.
(20:02):
And you got your, you had likesome cologne and aftershave and
then you had soap on a rope.
And I got it when I was like 12years old.
That's what I thought.
I'd just become a man.
I got it.
One Christmas morning I got soapon a rope, you know, like my
brother.
But I, I didn't realize thatyou, you hung it around the top
of the shower.
(20:23):
And then took it off to washwith.
I thought it was like amedallion, you know, you put it
on your head and walked aroundlike, here I am.
Like you in a gang.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
I'm soaked on a rope, man.
Just, but they, they, and I'mclean from the neck up'cause I
hadn't figured out I can takethis thing off from Austin.
Thank you.
(20:43):
And, and wash, yeah, and washthe rest down me, but I'm
looking good up here.
But they did, they had little,,they had little pope soaps and
they did.
The nuns laughed at that.
I've performed in a lot ofCatholic churches.
Matter of fact, one time Iscared my wife to death'cause I
called her and said, how'd theshow go?
I said, I killed the nuns.
She's like, oh my god.
(21:05):
Finally happened.
Pat's gone postal.
Yeah.
Two.
I was like, no, no nuns.
No.
The nuns loved me.
It's just a term.
I went to, I went to a Catholicchurch in Hattiesburg as well.
I went to a Catholic church, afriend of mine, he, he hadn't
been to Mass for a while.
He wanted to go.
He, he asked if, if I'll go withhim.
And, um, it's not mydenomination, but you know, the
(21:27):
Lord is the Lord.
And, um, and also, you know,it's like to turn around and
say, oh no, I'm not gonna, I'mnot gonna go with you'cause it's
not my, it's not my thing.
We sort of seemed kind of likethe opposite of, of, you know
what this is about.
So I went with him and it wasthe, the difference there.
It was a lot brighter.
It was a lot brighter than, um,Catholic churches here.
(21:49):
Um, it was just.
Same, very much the same sort ofservice.
Um, but yeah, it was brighter.
There was a, a brightness to itthat we don't have so much over
here because a lot of ourchurches are obviously kind of
predate, um, like America inits, you know, current form.
So, so it tends to be a littlebit more austere, um, whereas
(22:14):
this, it was modern, it wasbright.
It was, but I'll tell you whereit was.
It was by, um.
What's the big university youhave there in Hattiesburg?
University of SouthernMississippi.
Yeah.
It was just, it was oppositethere.
It was opposite there.
Uh, was there a baseball fieldright beside it?
Yes.
Yes, yes, there was.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
(22:35):
Yeah.
That's Saint.
Uh, I know the one I, I know theone you're talking about.
Yeah.
That that's been there for, fora long time.
But there's several Catholicchurches.
There's a Catholic school, youknow, that was, you tend to
stereotype and, and when you andI met, I was assuming all church
in England was.
(22:55):
Was very similar, I thought, youknow, that you just, just what
you've seen on tv, WestminsterAbbey and you know, you've seen
the priest and the robes andthen you sent me a video of the
church and people just praisingand it looked like most churches
in America, it was just peoplein there.
It was almost like it was a,just a building.
(23:16):
It wasn't even really a statelychurch, which No, no, that's,
so, that's soul survivor.
That's, um.
A church.
I have been attending a lotrecently.
I'm still.
Not, I'm not a hundred percentsure it's my home just yet, but,
uh, there's a lot of, there's alot of amazing things about it.
But they, uh, yeah, it's just ina WA warehouse, so it's just,
(23:40):
it's like a little threewarehouses joined together.
They do a lot of cool stuff.
They've got, they've got acoffee shop.
They do a, they a lot of stufffor the youth and for the kids,
but they also, they're a music,they're a Christian music label
as well, so they put a lot ofmusic out, so they have.
Uh, you know, it's a big,bright, modern worship filled
experience there.
(24:01):
Um, yeah.
Which is, I mean, it is, it isgood.
Like it, it, it's, you know,it's, it's full of praise and
worship it sometimes, I dunno.
You tell me what you think aboutthis Pat.
Right.
This was a point that someonemade to me before, but it's like
when we worship, right.
It's for him.
Right.
We are, we're, we are worshipinghim.
(24:22):
Right.
And then what can happen?
This is how it was explained tome, and it's something I
recognize in myself.
It's like, you know, when we goto those huge, big, brightly
lit, emotive experiences, it'slike, it actually, it can become
about us.
Oh, this feels good.
You know, it feels good becauseI'm, I'm here and I, you know, I
get the tingles and it's, youknow, it's, you know, it's this,
(24:47):
someone says to me, you can endup worshiping that experience,
you know, rather than worshipinghim.
And I, I really.
I took something for that.
Something I've kind of thoughtabout, but a lot of times in
the, you know, in the, in thetime that I've been a believer,
it's like that, you know what,making sure that we're
worshiping the right thing.
You know, what you're saying islike when you go to the big
production, you kind of thinkit's like the production's there
(25:10):
more for you and then you'reinstead of their worshiping, is
that what you're saying?
Yeah, exactly.
It, it comes about the vibe.
You worshiping the vibe.
Sorry, go on.
No, go ahead.
Well, you worship the vibe.
Yeah.
You know, you worship the,that's what I was gonna say.
Yeah.
Like it's, you know, and someonesuggested to me actually
there's, you know, there's adanger that you could fall into
idolatry there'cause you're notactually worshiping what you're
(25:32):
supposed to be worshiping.
Um, but yeah, there's a lot ofgreat things about that church.
I mean, Hillsong, right?
If we talk about Hillsong,right.
Obviously Hillsong's come in,but, you know, there's been a
lot of controversy aroundHillsong.
Right.
But, um.
Sorry, you broke up a littleHillsong.
(25:52):
Say again Pat, I, I thought isHills Strong?
Is Hillsong is based out ofAustralia.
Yeah.
So, but we have them in Englandas well.
Yeah.
And like obviously they, theyput on a huge, you know, they
put on a, a great show.
Right.
Um, and, and it's a lot of thatvibe there.
No, I think it's something, youknow, that.
(26:14):
Pitfall is, you can fall intothat Hillsong.
But I took a lad, like a, a, a,a, a guy to um, to Hillsong and
like he, he gave his life toJesus there.
Right.
And there was something aboutthat experience, something
(26:36):
within that experience.
It just, it hooked him in, youknow?
And, and I know a lot of peoplethat have got the cost of that.
Because of that kind of worshipexperience, whatev, you know,
whatever it is that's beingworshiped, it, it's attractive
to people, you know?
And it was attractive to him andhe gave his life to Jesus.
And for, and for me, Hillsongwas definitely a way in their
music.
You know?
(26:56):
It was definitely a way in.
And then I, I realized laterthat actually I, from a church,
I wanted something a bitdifferent, but Hillsong was a
way in.
So, you know, just, I mean, it'sjust something, it's just
something I think aboutsometimes, you know, is that,
you know, within that.
Huge brightly lit production ofan experience.
Like, yeah, all, maybe it can beidolatry, but like if it brings
(27:18):
people to him, is it, who knows?
I don't have all the answers,but.
Say when you were talking aboutthe big church, it's what, first
off, you and I both agree, it iswhatever works, whatever brings
someone to Jesus, whether it'sthe big production, whether it's
the big people will come and,and, you know, and the, the
(27:40):
worship music, it's a lot of,it's great music.
Um, but do you know that that isnot the majority of the churches
in America?
The majority of the churches inAmerica are the ones you passed
on the way that you didn't evennotice.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
The majority of churches have200 or less people and they're
(28:01):
pastored by people like thechurch I go to, uh, destiny
Church in Hattiesburg,Mississippi, pastored by Don
Hooper.
Fantastic guy.
This church is in a converted,it's in a strip mall, kind of
like where you went.
You know, you're not drivingdown the road seeing the big
cathedral.
You have to pull up in there.
And it's a con converted stripmall that they've had to go in
(28:23):
and they do the work.
A lot of these guys, thesepastors,'cause people think, oh,
these pastors are in it for themoney and their stuff.
These pastors and most of thesechurches, uh, the majority of
churches, the 200 or less.
They have day jobs or they'reworking or they're constantly
working, you know, around theclock.
I did a show for a pastor namedWill Lot out in Butte,
(28:46):
Mississippi, a little smalltown.
We drive out there and I'm gonnawait before I go out and do my
show and speak and.
He tells me to, uh, here, youcan wait in my office.
Well, I walk in a minute.
I'm like, oh, you said it.
Wait in your office.
I'm like, I'm in the, I'm in theutility room because it's just
full of ladders and paint, youknow, and hammers and chainsaw.
(29:08):
He's like, no, that's my office.
In other words, that was theguy's office because he spent
his time working.
He helped build around thechurch.
He helped fix, it wasn't thisglorious production, but it was
a church that just made such adifference in people's lives.
It, uh.
You know, they, they have thingsfor children.
They, it's a, you know what Imean?
It's a family.
Something happens to somebody.
(29:30):
That pastor's there, there's acommunity that you can go to and
I tell people, um.
When I run into people that arejust really lonely or lost or I
messed up and you know, I don'thave family or I don't have
this, they don't really realizethat you go to that church, you
go to those smaller type church.
They're not small.
They're still nice sizedchurches, but they're not the
(29:53):
big glorious churches with themassive productions.
But you go to those, good chanceyou're going to.
Meet a family, you're gonna meetpeople they meet on Wednesday
night, they meet on Sundaynight.
They meet, uh, you know,obviously have church on Sunday
morning, but it kind of becomesa family and that is, um.
(30:13):
That's the majority of whatchurches are in America.
You don't see it because you seepeople see what's on tv.
You see the big glorious thing.
You don't see the guy that's outthere that's just, that works as
hard as he can.
His wife is a part of whateverhe's doing.
Uh, everything is in there.
I remember going over and doingthe, uh, one of the first times
(30:33):
I performed at a church, prettynice sized church, and they were
paying me some money and I waslike, well.
What are we gonna give the soundguy and the this, you know, and
she said, well, they just, theydo it'cause they love the Lord.
And I'm like, well that's, youknow, we, you know, wanted to
give'em something anyway.
But the point is, it's not thebig huge production.
It's the small, the smallerchurches make a really big
(30:54):
difference in people's lives.
And I don't, um.
Uh, you know, I don't if it'sthe big church, if it's'cause
you get a lot of younger peoplethat are going, maybe it's
because they, you know, theywant to,, they like a scene or a
vibe or a social type thing.
And there are churches, some ofthe big churches are social.
You know, it's a thing wherepeople get up and put their
suits on and go and you just,you know, that's, it's whatever,
(31:19):
you know, people like doing.
The point is.
It's about developing arelationship and following
Jesus.
And in, in America, the majorityof churches are 200 or something
or less.
And it's not easy being one ofthese pastors because there is a
social aspect to churches where,I mean, a guy, some of the
(31:39):
people that have been going to achurch for a long time and the
pastor could move a plant fromone side of the.
Like the altar or whatever tothe other side, half the church
will leave.
You know, I always like thatplant right there.
You, I mean, I'm exaggeratingjust a little bit.
Or you'll have the church whereyou have, you've got, you know,
(31:59):
the, this one sister that wantsto get up and sing it.
Every church that's, oh gosh,he's gonna let Cousin Mary get
up and sing and she, she can'tsing.
So there's always that littlething that, kind of going on
and, in some of the churches,but it is the smaller type
churches where it's the majorityof what you don't see it when
(32:19):
you're in America.
So it's not just the big, youknow, the big glorious type, uh,
type churches.
And the, uh, oh, and I'll tellyou one thing.
If any pastors are listening,uh, because I was just thinking
I don't, have you ever been tochurch service where they, where
you guys start holding hands?
Uh, no.
Not a whole hand, hand, handholding.
(32:41):
Well,, it's a thing that canhappen over here.
The pastor will, I wanteverybody to hold hands.
We're all gonna join in prayer.
I just, lemme give a little wordof advice to any pastors out
there.
Let's not be holding hands withstrangers.
Nobody's thinking of the HolySpirit moving.
Nobody's even thinking of whatyou're saying.
You're holding the hand ofsomebody next to you and all
(33:01):
you're thinking of is, am Isqueezing this woman's hand too
hard?
She think I'm coming on to her.
Am I not squeezing it hardenough?
Does she think I don't like her?
Or did this guy just come out ofthe bathroom?
But it's a, it's a thing wherepeople will join hands.
If you're a pastor out there,let's not do, let's not do the
hand holding any anymore becauseeverybody in there is totally
(33:23):
creeped out about it.
Um, more reserved than.
You know, like sharing thepeace.
You do that, right?
Yeah.
It'll be, there'll often be likea calling in church to kind of
turn to your neighbor and like,just you'd say like, peace be
(33:46):
with you, you know, but, butit's soul survival.
What they do is, um, the churchI mentioned earlier, they, uh.
If they ask you to go and talkto someone, go and talk to
someone like, and, um, so, and,and that, you know, that can
feel kind of awkward.
You know, you approach astranger, you know, hi, how are
you?
But, oh, I've had some lovelyconversations doing that.
You know, really lovelyconversations.
(34:06):
Just bowing up to a strangerand, you know, just, you know,
how long have you been cominghere?
You know, how long we've been abeliever, you know, that's,
that's a nice thing.
I like that.
See, you and I, that's anotherthing that we've discussed in
the past when we first startedgoing to church.
Uh, I wasn't used to it.
And that is a thing that, thatthe beginning of most churches
(34:27):
that I go to, the pastor comesup, he reads a script, you know,
he reads a scripture or, uh,welcomes everybody and says, now
turn to your neighbor and walkaround and greet somebody and
greet fa, you know?
But what happens is the peoplethat know each other will all go
greet each other.
So the person that's just therefor the first time.
(34:51):
Doesn't know anybody, you know,and it can be, it can be a
little awkward, but they do dothat.
You know, it's just a normal,all right, turn around and say
hello to your neighbor.
By the same token, I have beento churches where you'll see
that person that understandsthat and they'll seek you out,
and that's where you meetfriends.
They'll come on their go, seethat person is over there.
A lot of people will turn,there's a social aspect to
church.
(35:11):
People will turn and they'reimmediately gonna go say hello
to their friends.
But if you're new to the churchwhen you first walked in there,
you're kind of sitting therelike now is when it's obvious
that I don't know anybody that'sin here.
So you're just kind of standingthere waiting to, but there's
usually somebody that will comeover, like, probably what
happens in Soul Survivor and,hi, I, so-and-so, and kind of
(35:32):
welcome you to the church.
And then you become, you kind ofknow who that person is from
that point forward.
But I'm not talking about that,that does happen.
I'm just talking about thisthing in the church that I
always, that it's the pastorwill be whatever the message is.
Let's everyone join hands'causewe're gonna join hands.
Richard, I.
Because we're joining in prayerand, and we're joining in and
(35:56):
connecting the Holy Spiritthroughout the room, but we're
not doing any of that.
We are holding some bystranger's hand, and most of it,
or most of us are creeped outabout.
I'm just, I'm just.
Telling pastors out there,you're holding some, you're
holding a stranger's hand.
And, that's not the thing wherepeople walk around and do that.
(36:18):
But see, in England, I thought.
So the churches like Westminsterare things like that.
They just are those Protestantchurches?
Uh, well we have Church ofEngland over here, which is that
which split off from the, yeah.
Catholic.
Yeah.
So, uh, yes, it would beProtestant.
(36:40):
Yeah.
Um, and then we have a lot,well, we have a lot of, so a lot
of our church buildings are abit older.
Obviously though the kind ofmore modern churches are in the,
are definitely in the minority,you know.
Um, but yeah, so our churchestend to, you know, there's a lot
of very old church buildingsthat we have.
Very beautiful.
(37:02):
The revival that you spokeabout.
'cause I've heard of that thereis a revival that seems to be
going on in England.
Yeah.
And in the past it, you hear,and I, and is there not
persecution, discriminationmaybe is like, I know there
might be a revival, but itseemed like it had gotten to a
(37:22):
point when England, when,following Jesus wasn't that cool
and that wasn't.
I mean, very much so, man.
It was like, there's a lot ofchurches closed.
Um, I dunno the statistics, butthere was definitely like they
were talking for, for, but whatseemed like a long time the
church attendance was, was, wasdiminishing like year on year.
(37:44):
So there's quite a lot of emptychurches, which is very sad.
Um, where the congregation justdwindled to the point it wasn't
sustainable.
Or you might have had threechurches that were sharing, one
pastor or vicar, you know,whatever you wanna call like,
'cause.
There just wasn't you, therewasn't enough tithing to support
(38:07):
like a church having its own,its own minister.
So that was all very sad.
But yeah, they're saying there'sbeen this, the statistics are,
there's been this huge revival,uh, particularly in Gen Z, um,
where like, you know, churchattendance is going up and up
and up and up and it might.
When I'm in Oxford, the church Iattend is called St.
Al Day's, which is a fantasticchurch.
(38:28):
Um, and they had, they said theywere, they were experiencing,
people were just coming in andsaying, I don't really know what
I'm doing here, but like, Ijust, I just felt like this was
where I'm supposed to be.
And they had, um, I think theyhad 39 people give their life to
Jesus in one service, you know?
Yeah.
(38:48):
I mean, I know, right?
You know, it's like, what?
What an amazing thing.
And they evangelize.
It's an, you know, it's a churchthat goes out into the community
and evangelizes, but not like, Imean, 39 people in one service
and people walking in just offthe street.
Just like, I just got led here.
I don't really know why, buthere I am.
You know, it's, it's reallysomething.
(39:11):
You talk about the Church ofEngland, England, the, just the
country of England, ha hasplayed such an important part in
Christianity for, you know, thebible that most people read was
translated in England.
You had, uh, do you ever read onum, CS Lewis?
Of course.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
(39:32):
Yeah.
CS Lewis was British a token Jr.
Token was British.
Yeah, absolutely.
Oxford.
In Oxford.
I grew up.
What's that?
Well, St.
Louis was at Oxford, wasn't he?
Was Oxford University when his,yeah, his was, I mean, I don't
even know, was it Tolkien?
But like, was one of his, um,one of his fellow students said,
(39:53):
like CS Lewis said to him, whydo you believe in God?
He was, you know, and he said,oh, get the tingles.
Just saying that.
And then his, you know, hisfellow students said, you're an
academic man, do your research.
Do you know what I mean?
And then he, he took himself offand read everything and then
just came to the point of viewthat it's like you can't argue
with the existence of got.
(40:13):
And he did lot.
The way he positions theargument.
It's really quite extraordinary.
Like if anyone's listening andthey're exploring faith reading,
um, mere Christianity is areally good place to start.
Say that again.
Mere Christianity by CS Lewis.
Yeah, that's a really good placeto start.
I never knew I, I didn't know hewas British.
(40:35):
I didn't know he was English.
I mean, I've heard CS Lewis allmy life ever since I've been a
Christian.
I've heard, well, CS Lewis.
I was like, well this is one ofthe most brilliant men and, uh.
It was something you and I werediscussing with Thomas CS Lewis.
Was, was English and he was anatheist, wasn't he?
He was, yes.
And he had that like, well, youmight almost call like an
academic conversion, you know,he, he assessed all of the
(40:58):
evidence and all of the writingsand the biblical text and
everything from then on, andcame to the conclusion not that,
um, that Jesus was a man thatwalks on the earth, which is
historically kind of.
Very, you know, almostimpossible to argue with, right?
That a man called Jesus workedthe earth at that time.
But he came to the conclusionthat the argument for the
(41:22):
existence of God and Jesus beingthe son of God was, and you
couldn't argue against it, youknow?
And, um, and the way he writesabout it is just, you know,
it's, it's amazing.
I, I, you know, he reallyinspired, he inspired me,
serious.
Lewis inspired me towards mytheological studies.
He, he gives this beautifulanalogy of, um, he says, it's
(41:43):
like if you're walking down, youknow, along the beach, you know,
like down the shoreline, right?
And um, you can, you can seethis ama, you can see the sea
and it stretches out and it'samazing.
And the sun sparkling off it andthe waves and it's so vast.
And, you know, you have thisexperience, this awe inspiring
experience and it's verybeautiful.
But that's all it'll ever be isthe experience.
(42:05):
Yeah.
But he said if you look at amap.
A map, you are never gonna getthat same experience out a map.
You never will.
Yeah.
It's a map.
It's a bit of paper with someimages on it that represent
something, but said, without themap, you'll never navigate that.
C.
All you'll ever be, you'llalways just be limited to that
experience.
And he said, that's whattheology is.
Theology is the map that allowsyou to navigate and go deeper
(42:28):
into that experience.
And that's certainly been my.
My experience of, of, you know,the limit, the very diffraction
of theology, theological studiesthat I've done so far.
It's just that like, it's likeyou can't help but deepen, or
for me, it deepened my faith.
I know for some it can be, itcan be challenging, um,
(42:49):
unpacking things in that way,but for me it's been like a,
just a, a much richer, um,journey into, into my, into my
belief, into my faith.
And that was all thanks to CSLewis.
Okay.
That's awesome.
I've just been reading on it.
Well, whatever's happened, thejourney that both of us on has
(43:12):
led us to, has led us tohappiness and joy and, uh, we're
gonna kinda leave it here.
Oh, and as far as the British orconcerned you would think it'd
be a revival because we all grewup thinking.
Jesus was British.
The disciples were British.
I thought Jesus looked likeRobert Powell, the actor,
because every movie they haveBritish accents.
(43:33):
Even the chosen now, the chosen,the new series that's out all
British.
That's, yeah.
Well, if we think about it, uh,you know, the translation of the
Bible, the invention of printingpress.
Yeah.
Yes.
CS Lewis.
I mean, I guess if I was gonnasum all of that up in two words,
pat, for for our Americanlisteners, it would be You are
(43:56):
welcome.
Well, that's what I was doing,Richard.
I was, I was giving you acompliment and showing you my
admiration, for you Brits, andobviously you had already
accepted it before I said it.
(44:16):
So, so now that we've had anexercise in humility, let's see.
Alright, well look, it was goodto see you.
I appreciate you coming in late,uh, late today'cause we had to
kind of squeeze this in.
So, uh, alright man.
Well God bless everybody outthere and uh, Richard, I will
see you next week.
You will indeed.
Thank you very much PatrickMcCall.
(44:38):
Alright, take care.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
Bye.
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