August 14, 2024 • 54 mins
What if the very teachings that promise to bring you love and belong are the same ones that will put you in the greatest dangers? Join us as we explore Tia Leving's phenomenal book, "Well-Trained Wife," and the many parts that resonate with us. We discuss the tight grip of rigid faith traditions and societal expectations, and how liberating it can be to seize control of our own destinies. From personal anecdotes to reflections on our younger selves, this episode is packed with heartfelt dialogue about breaking free and growing stronger, with a gentle reminder to brace for heavy content around various forms of abuse.
Show Notes
A Well-Trained Wife by Tia Levings
PODCAST: The Problems with The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace (Bare Marriage)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want
to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had, so whether
you're feeling stuck or alreadyshaking things up, we are here
to cheer you on and assure youthat the best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So today we're kind of doingsomething we've not ever done
before, right?
This isn't a take two, this isa take three.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
This is a take three.
I'm not sure if we should beproud of our persistence and
high standards or if we shouldfeel bad about that.
Feel bad that it's taken usthree times.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Maybe it just points to the importance of the subject
that we're talking about.
Well, fair, the importance ofthe subject that we're talking
about and also, you know therespect that I think we owe the
author Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So we're here to talk about Tia Leving's book that
just came out recentlyWell-Trained Wife and this book
hit both of us really hard, in agood way, I think.
We both sped, read through itand then had so much to say that
we'll probably be breaking thisup into a two-part book review,
(02:15):
and what we're going to do isstart out by giving us a short
summary of the book, and thenwe're going to go through and
talk about some of the passagesthat struck us and some of the
themes that we see coming upagain and again.
So, before we get into thesummary, why did this book make
(02:37):
such an impression on you,rebecca?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know, I think for many of us, we are told to play
according to the rules, we'retold to listen to the elders,
we're told what God's will isgoing to be for our lives and,
of course, the ultimate desireis to please God and then, of
course, get to heaven.
(02:59):
And I think oftentimes we kindof get to a point where it's
like what we're doing isn'tworking, and it's realizing that
when we take the initiative andeven take control for our own
lives, while it feels incrediblyscary and while it's everything
we've been told not to do, atthe end of the day, that's when
(03:22):
real and positive changes happen.
Sometimes that's even whenlives are literally saved.
And I think the other thingthat we forget is, at the end of
the day, we are responsible forthe way we individually order
and control our lives and wedon't have to merely react to it
(03:44):
.
And I think Tia does anincredible job of displaying
this in her words.
How about?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
you.
I agree with that, and I thinkpart of the power of this book
was how it reminded me of myyounger self.
There were so many of thethought processes she had that I
could identify with, so, eventhough our lived realities were
very different, it was amazinghow many times she described her
(04:15):
perspective on something thatreally resonated with me, and it
also reminded me why we wantedto even start this podcast in
the first place.
Reminded me why we wanted toeven start this podcast in the
first place because we know thatwell, as our intro says,
veering off the path assigned tous isn't easy, and since we
(04:35):
can't go back and assure ouryounger selves that our desires
and interests and experiencesmattered, we can share that
message with others who are onthis journey, and I think this
book does a phenomenal job,telling one woman's story of how
she did that, agreed, shereally did an amazing job and
(04:56):
reminded us that we don't alwaysneed to have someone else's
permission.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Sometimes, having your own permission, your own
approval, is all that we reallyneed Right, right.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And that sounds like such a blasphemous thing to say
when you come from a traditionalbackground where it's all about
maintaining the status quo andall about continuing the norms,
and yet we see time and timeagain that that is the very
thing that will set us free.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And doing this doesn't mean you're selfish.
Doing this doesn't mean you'rebeing rebellious.
Doing this doesn't mean allthose things we've been taught.
It simply means we're takingresponsibility for our lives and
sometimes our children's lives,Right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
right?
Yes, it can be a very nuancedissue, and that's what we're
here to talk about, so maybeI'll kick this off with the
summary and then we'll getstarted.
Oh, before we do that, though,trigger warning.
We don't do a lot of contentwarnings, and maybe it's because
the whole podcast could merit ablanket trigger warning, but
(06:11):
there's lots of disturbingcontent here, right?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Absolutely.
Her book probably covers everytype of abuse imaginable and
it's kind of heavy materialimaginable.
And it's kind of heavy materialbut also it's empowering
material and so yeah, for ourlisteners, be kind to yourselves
.
If you need to take breaks,that's totally okay.
(06:35):
If you need to talk about itwith somebody, absolutely do
that, because while it's heavy,while it's moments of great
sadness, it is also veryempowering and absolutely
beautifully written, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I should also mention that there might be spoilers.
There's not a lot to spoil inthe book, but you'll probably
enjoy this conversation more ifyou have read it.
So you might want to go do thatbefore you read it and then
come back.
And I should also mention Iwoke up this morning with a
migraine.
I took my meds and I think I'mgoing to be okay.
(07:15):
But sometimes I have longerpauses than normal between my
words because my brain is movinga little slowly.
So you might have to turn up.
Our listeners might have toturn up the speed of the audio,
and I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Migraines are no fun, are you?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
okay, yeah, I'm fine.
I'm fine, I'm just slow, that'sokay, that's all right, okay,
so in A Well-Trained Wife, tiaLevings shares her journey
through an escape fromevangelical fundamentalism.
The book begins with herfamily's move from rural
Michigan to Jacksonville,florida, in the early 1980s
(07:58):
where, as a young girl, sheattended a mainstream Southern
Baptist megachurch.
There she learned the preceptsof purity, culture and personal
devotion to God.
When her young adult dreams ofart school and then Bible
college were pushed aside, shedutifully followed the path of
early marriage, a path thatpromised love, acceptance and
(08:18):
belonging.
Later, as a young wife andmother, she was taken under the
wing of quote-unquote Gothardmom mentors at church.
These women, with their longlines of well-behaved children
in tow, introduced her to thehousehold management strategies
of Terry Maxwell, theauthoritarian parenting methods
of Michael and Debbie Pearl andthe larger world of
(08:41):
fundamentalist homeschooling.
While Tia's mentors were urgingher to adopt denim jumpers and
blanket training, their husbandswere introducing her husband to
Christian fundamentalistpatriarchy.
In the years that followed, onerigid fundamentalist dogma led
to another.
As her husband battled hisdemons, tia battled for her life
(09:06):
.
This beautifully written memoiris filled with prescient
insights about the trad wifelife when you don't have a
lucrative social media followingor a trust fund to back you.
It also exposes the emptypromises of high demand religion
, and why breaking all thesocial norms to trust your gut
(09:27):
and take initiative is likely tobe the very thing that saves
you.
So, rebecca, what are some ofthe moments you couldn't stop
thinking about after readingthis book?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, you know, as she starts the book, they had
just moved from Michigan toJacksonville, florida, and there
was a lot of grief in that foryoung Tia.
She loved her world in Michiganand there was a quote in the
book where she wrote and thiswas her mom making sense of the
(10:06):
move.
But her mom said we wereheadstrong in Michigan.
We didn't pray together, havedevotions or go to church enough
.
We had to stay in Jacksonvilleto be disciplined by God.
And I thought it wasfascinating how easily and
quickly, and even how familiarthis felt to me that
(10:27):
fundamentalism gave Tia's mom,tia's family, a way to make
sense of their life experiences.
But in fact it was simply aconfusing and unstable US
economy.
And I think we all have timesin our lives where it's
(10:49):
confusing, where it's unstable,and we're simply trying to make
sense.
And what if those momentsaren't necessarily about God
punishing us or God bringing usback to him, but it's just
simply part of what happens inlife.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So are you saying that fundamentalism gave her
family a narrative that herfather's job loss wasn't about
economic forces beyond theircontrol and one of many, many
others who lost their jobsduring that time too but that it
was their lack of dedication toGod that forced them to move to
(11:33):
Florida from Michigan and leavetheir home in Michigan?
And so it's a very familiar wayto me, too, of seeing the world
.
I have family members who tendto see day-to-day events that
happen as God doing this or thatin their life, and what's
unfortunate to me is then theydon't they miss the fact that
(11:57):
this is something that'shappening to lots of other
people.
Right, the economy affects lotsof people, everybody, but
fundamentalism gives a storythat distracts from that and
instead makes financial failurea personal failure Right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
When it's almost like this empty promise of if you do
things right, with God, badthings like that won't happen.
Right, and it feels likefundamentalism is simply a way
of magnifying socialdysfunctions like sexism, like
poverty, like job loss, thingsthat are normal.
(12:33):
But it magnifies these socialdysfunctions that are already in
culture but kind of just cranksup the intensity and when
everyone finally gets in line wecall it a virtue.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right, well, you mentioned sexism.
Sexism is a real thing in boththe secular world, the religious
world, the fundamentalist world.
But what we see in this book,and what those of us who've
experienced, is thatfundamentalism takes sexism and
says this is a good thing.
Actually, we need to reinforcethis hierarchy and call it a
(13:12):
virtue.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Agreed, and I think they even do it with poverty,
because, on one hand, if you arestruggling financially, it's
God punishing you, but yetthere's that attitude of they're
there, you'll get there,they're there.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, so kind of like bootstrapping.
It gives a religious, it givesa spiritual veneer to the
secular bootstrapping.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the American dream and allthat, yeah.
So once Tia's family wassettled in Florida they found
themselves part of a megachurch,one of the largest churches in
(13:54):
the Southeast.
It's a Southern Baptist church,so very much a mainstream kind
of church.
And she talks about some of herimpressions and I have to say
she does such a beautiful job ofdescribing her world in very
concise terms.
(14:14):
So every word carries lots ofmeaning and you liked her
description of church right Ofthe music at church.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I had to laugh she was talking about, and I think
music was kind of.
Especially in her younger yearsmusic was kind of a big thing
for her.
But she talked about how Sundaymornings they usually sang two
blood songs and one heaven songand I thought this was so
(14:48):
hilarious.
The way Christians glory in thewhole blood narrative to me is
always so fascinating.
It's vampire, it's gore, it'sdramatic and if it was any other
(15:11):
genre other than our salvation,we would call it bad, a blood
cult.
Yeah yeah.
And I just think it'sfascinating how much blood songs
were part of our history.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I think that's part of the magic of her writing
.
Is that without saying that,she's calling that to our
attention?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Right, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's
brilliant.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It's brilliant.
Now, another lasting impressionof church was the minister who
would preach over the pulpitabout the dangers of movies and
the dangers of going toblockbuster and the dangers of
what else.
There were lots of things likethat, also instructing parents
to maintain control over theirteens, and this message that
(16:04):
came through again and again wasone of control between parents
and children, between the churchand the membership, and there
was not a message of connection,of developing connection, and
what's interesting to me is howmany of these messages seem to
(16:27):
kind of fly over the heads ofthe parents.
Or at least her parents didn'tcompletely buy into the dogma
and yet she took those lessonsfrom the pulpit very seriously
Not that she wanted to give upmovies, but she felt guilty and
enough that she felt like shehad to hide that part of herself
(16:48):
and also the teachings atsummer camp, and that was really
where she got a lot of thepurity culture messages and she
learned oh, this is what I needto do, these are the rules I
need to follow in order to beloved, and I think that is a
good reminder for me that whenmy children are exposed to
different messages, to sit downand talk with them about it,
(17:11):
because I can't just assume thatthey know that I don't buy into
this or that idea.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And it's also interesting, while this was
being presented over themainstream church's pulpit,
largely people weren't taking itliterally and seriously until
she moved into thefundamentalist groups.
So again it was almost likemainstream was kind of saying
(17:43):
things, but it was the nextlevel of weird that took it
literally.
Rigidity yeah, Rigidity isprobably a better term.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yes, and along with that, different kids responded
to the teachings differently.
Where she got caught up in thatrigidity, her sister didn't,
and her sister went to a lot ofthe same, or my impression is
that her sister, you know, wasexposed to many of these same
messages and for whatever reason, they they didn't take with
(18:18):
with her sister the way they didwith her.
But Tia was very, she's highlyintuitive, she's very aware,
she's very conscientious, she'staking in information, it's not
just flying over her head, and Ithink those of us who can
identify with that, we're morelikely to absorb those messages
and and they may have led to alot, they may have have led to a
(18:41):
lot of anxiety for us yeah, oh,absolutely.
I absolutely identify with thatas tia moves through her 10
years, she's a young adult fullof dreams and goals.
She excels at art and writingand she's getting a lot of
encouragement at school topursue these things.
(19:03):
But then at church she'sgetting the message that this is
going to be less than Godhonoring, and when the money
doesn't show up, well, that'sevidence it's not God's will for
her to go to art school.
Then Tia thinks well, wait aminute, what about Bible college
?
And maybe the church would helpfund it, because they had a
(19:25):
history of funding students whoare going to Bible college, and
so this might be an avenue forher to continue her education.
And she had this brief exchangewith the minister that I think
had a very different impact thanwhat was intended.
She mustered up her courage totake the initiative to ask the
(19:47):
minister about the possibilityof funding for Bible college.
But before they even gotstarted, when she entered the
office, the minister offered herthis plate of delicious looking
candies and when she acceptedthem and reached out to take one
, they turned out to be fake.
I think they were like ceramicor something, and it was a dumb
(20:08):
joke at her expense and as ayoung girl she felt embarrassed.
It took her off balance and Ijust had to wonder was that a
control tactic on the part ofthe minister?
Was he intentionally trying tomake her ill at ease as a way to
assert his dominance?
Was it a lesson to not trusther own instincts?
(20:32):
And I think, why not validateher courage and resourcefulness?
I can't help but think that ifshe had been a boy, her courage
and resourcefulness would havebeen rewarded.
And in fact what he said was ohno, those funds are reserved
for young men who are going topreaching school, and so no, we
(20:57):
would not waste that money on ayoung woman.
And I'm sure the ministerdidn't think twice about that
meeting.
But I think, about the impactthat must have made on young Tia
and the lessons that she gotfrom it, that the minister
didn't intend, or did he?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, because
sometimes I think those jokesare used for a purpose Right.
And I think it's alsointeresting that those fake
candies could easily be seen asrepresenting so many of the fake
promises that these churchleaders often make to young
(21:40):
people, to many people.
And these carrots dangled infront of people keep them doing
those jumping jacks for Jesus.
It keeps promising you know,get this right, do this right,
and then this will happen.
And it's oftentimes just fake,it's a carrot you can't quite
(22:05):
grasp Right.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And if it's a fake candy, it turns out when you do
grasp it, you maybe don't wantit after all.
You chip your tooth and chokeon it.
Exactly.
She doesn't expressly say thatthat was the lesson that she
took away from it, but well, Idid.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
It gets interesting to me that even in the moment
where she is being turned downfor taking initiative, she was
learning something about whatshe could expect from her church
, family and whatnot, and Ican't help but think that
informed her choices down theroad, even though she was turned
(22:45):
down and on one hand we couldsay it was her taking initiative
there wasn't successful, justended up with her being
embarrassed.
When I look at that now, havingread the whole book, I'm so
proud of her.
I am so proud of her for takingthat step, and it's not her
fault that the minister was ajerk.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Oh, absolutely.
I don't think we applaud thebravery and courage that it
takes for people to do that typeof thing, regardless how it
turns out.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right, right, especially people who have been
groomed to not take initiative,which I don't know that that was
as intense for Tia as it maybewas for some of us, but yeah,
very, very true.
So this kind of rule followingmessage continues to follow her
as she is maturing as a youngwoman.
(23:36):
When college is eliminated asan option for her, she's really
floundering for a little bit,wondering what is she supposed
to do next.
And during that time, we cansee that the things that made
her unique, the things that werestrengths for her, the things
that she could have reallyexcelled at, were being pared
(23:59):
away from her life.
There's a line no to what Iwanted, so I could say yes to
God.
It was presented to her as aneither or she couldn't follow
her interests and follow God.
No to college, art and boys hecouldn't be husbands.
Time was ticking and so, againand again, she had to choose
between her dreams, on one hand,or following the rules, which
(24:23):
is how she would gain love andacceptance and the approval of
God, right being in God's will.
And so she absorbed the messageagain and again that being
loved meant abandoning herself.
Being loved came at the cost ofthe things that mattered to her
, and I think this is anexperience that many of us can
identify.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Absolutely, and I think it's something that is
almost so normal that you don'treally think about it until it
kind of like smacks you in theface.
But she points out how thechurch promised women that quote
if you keep yourself pure, youwill be a special utensil for
honorable use.
I mean, who thought this was agood translation?
(25:05):
Women are so easily reduced toa kitchen utensil.
It's just sad.
It's sad.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And she hints at this at certain points along the way
and then later on in the book,after she's married and has
children and she is strugglingwithin that situation, she says
to a friend it's almost as if Icould be swapped out.
Leah, Anyone could mother mychildren according to his wishes
(25:35):
, Because of course, that washow she was supposed to be a
mother.
According to his wishes, Anyonecould clean the house.
Anyone could be me, Becauseeverything that is uniquely me
is choked off and shamed away.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You know, that kind of hit me and I couldn't help
but wonder if.
Is that part of the plan, evenif it's subconscious?
Is that part of the plan tokeep reminding us women that we
are replaceable?
We really aren't that needed?
It reminds me a little bit of alot of work environments oh,
(26:12):
we're family here.
We're family here until theydon't really need you or until
you don't quite perform the waythey want.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I agree, and I think it's a lot easier to control
widgets, it's a lot easier tocontrol objects than human
beings.
And I think when we repress andsquelch our emotions and
talents, our interests, I thinkit's important for us to think
(26:45):
about the cost.
What is the cost of cutting off, squelching those parts of
ourselves?
Now, in the short term, wemight get acceptance and love,
and those are our core needs forhuman beings, and so that's a
huge incentive to follow thenorms.
(27:06):
But the long-term costs arealso really important to think
about, because how long until wequit feeling other feelings and
as we quit feeling, we quitcaring, how long before we quit
listening to our instincts andjust kind of chalk them up as so
in women's silly emotions?
(27:26):
And I think we should askourselves is it really that God
doesn't value our uniqueness, oris our individuality
inconvenient for those who wantto control us?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Just recently I read a phrase it's more safe to
suffocate in a box than it is tobe raked over hot coals, and I
think of that so often.
Sometimes it feels like thoseare the two options we have, and
you need to be raked over hotcoals one time to realize how
(28:00):
painful that is and how unsafeit is to play outside the
sandbox that you've been given.
And I think about howdesperately leaders try to evade
emotions.
I mean, she talked about howeven funerals were called
(28:21):
homegoings, and I think aboutfunerals in my past.
How easily we try to make it acelebration and instead of
honoring the person who haspassed, we like to make it a
call for repentance and a callfor preparation.
(28:42):
I've even been to funeralswhere they have altar calls.
And are we so uncomfortablewith emotions that even at
funerals we can't tap into ourgrief and hold space for
mourning?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
So, as Tia is telling the story of her young
motherhood and marriage and thechallenges that she was facing,
as well as the Gothard moms whowere mentoring her and coaching
her in fundamentalist ways, shetalks about some of the books
(29:26):
that were recommended to her.
One of those books is theExcellent Wife.
Is it by Martha Pease?
Yeah, the point Tia was makingwas how many of these
fundamentalist marriage booksimplicitly condone or explicitly
, more often, implicitly condonedomestic violence.
(29:50):
And there is one line in thebook it's okay for the husband
to beat the wife.
Martha did say and this writerdenied it later, but it's
undeniable when you look at whatshe actually wrote.
Now, even more to the point, inthe back of the book she had a
chart of different scenarioswhere women might struggle to
(30:13):
trust God, and then there'sappropriate verses for each of
these occasions.
And some of those challengesthat women might be facing were
things about bitterness orstruggles to forgive, or
struggles to common relationshipstruggles.
But then also the chartincluded scenarios like if I
(30:37):
don't want him to hurt meanymore, here's a Bible verse
for that.
If I wish I had a gun to killhim, here's a Bible verse for
that.
If I want to kill myself.
Here's a Bible verse for that.
If I want to kill myself,here's a Bible verse for that.
How telling is it that in a bookon Christian marriage, two
(30:59):
women, these concerns are socommon that they need to be
included.
The thought that a Bible verseis going to take care of these
problems.
A big problem there.
Big problem that this is justcommon and not a huge concern.
And once more, if marriage isfor life and we're talking about
(31:22):
relationships where thesefeelings and these fears are
present, that's not the goodlife, that's a life sentence.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So do you think by including it in a book like this
, they normalize it to the pointthat you're ashamed to speak
about it.
Because if we normalize it andgive you Bible verses that you
should be quoting, then ifyou're still thinking these
thoughts, you obviously aren'tquoting enough Bible verses or
(31:56):
believing the right things.
And Bare Marriage actually doesan entire podcast on this book
and I haven't listened to it yet, but I think it would be really
fascinating to listen to it.
Oh, it's very good, it's verygood and it's frightening.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
It's frightening because she was not in
Anabaptist groups, but this waspassed around our church groups
as well, and I think those kindsof messages, when we combine
them with all the directives tojust wait on God's provision,
just pray, let go and let God,all those directives start to
(32:35):
look a whole lot more like shutup and cooperate and perpetuate
the system.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Right.
There was a phrase that sheused that kind of was the crux
almost of the entire book, and Ithink it was used at least
twice in the book.
But today it hit me.
Maybe, maybe it was up to me tosave me, and I think she's so
right.
We can save ourselves, and thething is, people can save
(33:04):
themselves we.
They don't need anyone'spermission or approval to do so.
We can simply follow our gutfeeling of it is time, our gut
feeling of it is time, and noone needs to stay in
relationships where theirdominating thought is I don't
want him to hurt me anymore, Iwant to kill myself.
(33:27):
There is no need ever to stayin a relationship like that.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I think the narrative is so often oh, but
what's it going to do to thechildren if you break up the
home?
And I think the more importantquestion is what's it going to
do to the children if you keepthem in that?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
And I think we need to be really careful, because
there are not just churchleaders that are promoting this
message, there's alsopoliticians that are promoting
this message, and when youremove a woman's right to leave,
we are in big trouble,absolutely, absolutely.
Additionally, I think thiswaiting on God keeps us stuck.
It keeps us praying harder,keeps us trying.
(34:09):
It keeps us on this hamsterwheel of just trying to get it
right.
Do we need to dance this way?
Do we need to move this way?
How do we need to pivot?
And all of a sudden, I think somany reach a point where you
just cannot do it anymore.
And then there's thisrealization that, with all this
(34:31):
praying and all this trying, allthis dancing, maybe I'm in fact
the only person involved whowants things to change, and that
is a really bitter anddifficult realization.
And then they wonder why weleave.
Then the church sits back andwonders why people are done.
(34:52):
It doesn't take a rocketscience to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Right.
Speaking of false promises, shetalks about how the church's
promise to comfort thevulnerable through the grieving
was really an attractive messageto her family, and this is kind
of reverting back to when shewas younger and this is what
really drew her mom intoattending church again.
(35:17):
Here they were, newly arrivedin Florida, just trying to get
their bearings and reestablishtheir life and recover from a
financial setback, and thechurch offered comfort and a
narrative to make sense ofthings.
And yet what they and so manyothers find that along with that
(35:39):
sense of community comes thingsthat they didn't know, things
that they weren't prepared for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I think realistically .
Often what happens is thevulnerable are groomed.
They get them to show up, theypromise them blessings, they get
them to and, in many ways, takeadvantage of them.
Right now I see a lot ofchurches promoting this idea of
(36:07):
we are a safe place for ahurting world, and it makes me
cringe.
Churches who typically say thisthe loudest are the worst with
helping single moms, they arethe worst for helping immigrants
, they are the worst for simplybeing there, and it feels like
(36:28):
they're often a safe place forthe wealthy.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
For those who already belong.
Right, and I just want to say,too, that this is not something
that you are just speculatingabout, right.
This is from your personalobservation in working with
folks who are in desperate needof resources and struggle to
find them.
Again and again, you find thatchurches are just unwilling to
(36:55):
make good on that promise.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh, absolutely, and I mean I can think of so few
churches who actually take careand help abuse victims.
Churches don't want to enterthat messy.
It's annoying.
The answers aren't clear, cutRight.
And it certainly doesn't bringthem more money and more revenue
(37:21):
.
And it doesn't build biggerchurches.
And if we think about it, IBLPpromised rest, healing, safety,
identity and belonging.
I mean, what these churches arepromising isn't anything new,
and often what ends up happeningis these systems tend to place
more scrutiny on the abusedindividuals or on the vulnerable
(37:44):
than they do on the abuser.
I mean, how often do they saywell, you know what you do is
more important than whathappened to you.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Really, Really, you know.
It reminds me of theobservation that in human
interactions, we usually deferto the source of the most toxic
behavior in the room.
It's true.
And I think in these kinds ofsituations often the most
vulnerable person is the easiestto manage, easiest to control,
(38:17):
and so it's easy to focus ontheir behavior, what they did
wrong, than to the real problem,because the real problems are
often much more difficult tosolve, which kind of brings us
to the next point.
I actually had a conversationwhere people were trying to
point out the fact that, well,alan Tia's ex-husband had mental
(38:40):
illness, and while mentalillness absolutely had a
component in this story, Doesthat statement imply that it
wasn't really that there was aproblem with the church
community, it was a problem withhis mental illness, that that
was the source of their problemsand it was not a faith issue?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, and almost it was that, but it was almost also
this notion that it's someonewith a mental illness who wants
power, and it's someone with amental illness.
Who desires control?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
The patriarchal dysfunction.
The patriarchal dysfunction wasa manifestation of the mental
illness.
Okay, okay, interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
And I disagree.
I think environments like thisjust give those people a place
to live and a place to even, atsome level, excel live and a
place to even, at some level,excel.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Well, the leaders were encouraging him to be more
controlling.
They moved them to a placewhere he could spend more hours
at home so he could keep tabs onher more.
If his controlling and abusivetactics were a result of the
mental illness, the leaders werejust encouraging that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Well and we all know leaders who are not mentally ill
, who love power and control.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Well, and the reality is, these groups usually don't
have resources for dealing withmental illness, and what we're
really talking about is asituation where there were
problems that were evident inthe family, but these church
leaders exacerbated the problems, and it's not just this one guy
who was mentally ill, it was awhole system.
(40:33):
It was a whole system that wasprotecting him without getting
him help or resources Rightright and in the process, was
harming the family.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, and it was ultimately when Tia paid
attention to her intuition, whenshe heard the words run, that
literally saved her and herchildren's lives, and I think
her story so proves andillustrates the tragedies that
we can avoid when women, butalso, I think, men learn to pay
(41:08):
attention and listen to theirgut and to their instinct.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And I think it takes a lot of bravery to do this
Takes so much bravery when thesocial norm has been established
that following the rules,working within the hierarchy,
submitting to those who have therule over you, that that is the
righteous thing to do, that'sthe virtuous thing to do, and I
(41:33):
think we're here to say Tia'sstory shows us how misled that
can be and why it's worthbreaking out of those roles.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I think it's Richard Rohr that says religion is for
those who are afraid of hell,spirituality is for those who
have lived through hell.
And I think at some point inthis whole mix, you reach the
realization that this is hell.
This isn't about dying andgoing to hell, this is about
living in hell.
(42:04):
And I think when a personreaches that point, this whole
narrative of fear of theafterlife loses its power.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You know, I think one of the most hopeful parts of
the book were the moments whenTia interacted with someone from
outside the bubble, outside hercommunity, and I think what is
so valuable is for us to thinkabout the potential impact that
strangers, folks outside thebubble, have for breaking the
(42:41):
spell of authoritarian control.
I think of a bystander whoexpressed concern when she was
attacked as a young girl.
Think of Trapdoor.
This was an online forum thatshe was part of, and this was a
group of rural, breakinghomeschool moms who helped her
(43:03):
get back in touch with herinterests in art and writing and
intellectual pursuits after shewas a mom and deep in
fundamentalist circles drowning.
There were other mothers at theNICU when her daughter was in
the hospital, who gave herlife-saving advice.
(43:24):
The Orthodox priest who helpedher escape.
Ultimately, all these bystanderswere so powerful because of
their compassion.
Their compassion was whispersof affirmation that said I see
you, you don't need to live thisway, and I just can't emphasize
(43:44):
enough how compassion from astranger is often the kindest
thing that someone in a highdemand religion will have
experienced, especially someonewho is in a difficult situation.
They are often told that theworld, that, however hard life
(44:04):
is within the bubble.
It's even harder outside thebubble.
But a stranger's compassioncracks open that lie.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
It absolutely does, and I think so often.
This idea that this is wheresafety is, inside this bubble,
inside this group, this is wheresafety is, this is where
belonging is, this is whereJesus is, and outside this group
, oy, oy, that's danger, that'sall the bad things.
(44:32):
And kindness from outsiders andperspectives from outsiders
absolutely bursts that narrative.
It challenges that narrative.
I've always been a littlecautious when people fuss about
social media, the dangers ofsocial media, yeah.
And well, I get it, Wow, I getit.
(44:53):
There's dangers, there'sproblems.
Social media also saves livesand I think sometimes the
fussing about social media andthe dangers involved with that
can be a means to control andshrink someone else's world.
It was social media where Ilearned about gentle parenting.
(45:14):
It was social media where Istumbled onto Rachel Held Evans'
blog and started deconstructingwhen deconstructing wasn't even
a thing and gave me not justpermission but approval or
affirmation that the things Iwas seeing was actually real,
(45:46):
that I wasn't making things upand that you weren't the only
one seeing them.
And that wasn't just you,exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It wasn't your delusion Right, isn't that true?
And now that you say that, backin 2000, so we're talking
pre-social media, the internetwas a really important part of
my breaking free from highdemand religion too.
So when I was part of the smallfundamentalist church in
(46:20):
Oklahoma City, my friend and Iwere becoming increasingly
concerned about some of thedynamics that we were seeing,
and it was starting to feel alittle bit like deja vu, like
wait, haven't we seen these, youknow, kind of the fear,
obligation and guilt, the kindof exclusivity, the kind of you
know, just all that.
(46:40):
That just started to feel verylike, disturbingly familiar, and
I started to wonder oh mygoodness, did we go through that
difficult thing just to land inthe same kind of place again?
So my friend goes well, I knowwe're not a cult, you know we're
just serving God, but how wouldwe know if we were a cult?
(47:01):
How would we know?
And so she got on the computerat work and Googled
characteristics of a cult.
Well, she found a list ofcharacteristics of spiritual
abuse and she brought me thislist and said check it out.
And it just stunned both of us,because here we thought we were
the special little group, thislist of characteristics of
(47:25):
spiritual abuse were like boom,boom, boom.
It was like someone was lookingin our windows and describing
the group.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And we were gone within a few days.
Isn't that amazing?
It's amazing when speciallittle groups aren't so special.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
It blew my mind and I took the next.
How many years readingeverything I could find on the
topic because, yes, nothingspecial about it I learned that
we were one in a million, butnot in the way we thought,
exactly, exactly.
So Tia talks about craving whatit meant to be well-read and
(48:03):
educated and she really wantedto experience and understand and
see connections within thebroader world, and Trapdoor was
the forum that really scratchedthat itch.
And I think what is soimportant here is how her
initiative and reaching out andfinding these sources outside
(48:24):
the group not only fed her soul,but those connections to people
outside her little bubble alsohelped save her later when she
was running for her lifeLiterally helped save her later
when she was running for herlife Literally, literally.
And when we are discouragedfrom making connections outside
our group, whether that is justthrough friendship or through
(48:49):
learning or interests, hobbies,that kind of thing, instead of
being suspicious of the peopleoutside our bubble, we need to
be suspicious of why our bubbleis trying to cut us off from
people outside, because it wasthose connections that were her
lifeline, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Something else that I think is so important, and this
is something I'm kind ofpassionate about.
When Tia knew it was time torun, when she heard the words
run, she ended up calling hermom and she wrote just come home
, mom said and that's what I didand parents who care more about
(49:30):
a marriage than about their kidwho's within the marriage need
to stop.
Parents who care more aboutyour kid's preferred gender than
the kid's actual life need tostop.
When you care so much that youshut your kids off, you are
(49:51):
setting up your kid to bevulnerable and taken advantage
of.
When you don't care about yourkid and set a standard, no one
is going to care about your kid.
Tia talks about how herex-husband was always a little
nervous and a little bit worriedabout her parents' perception
(50:12):
of him, and I'm convinced thatwas some of the saving grace in
Tia's life.
And parents, your attitudetowards your child sets a
precedent for how others willtreat them, and if you treat
your child with disrespect, itinvites their future spouse to
treat them with disrespect aswell, and I think we need to be
(50:37):
so very careful when we seeparents disrespecting their
children, disowning theirchildren.
It sets them up for failure,but it also sets them up for
abuse he is.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
There are hundreds of women who are also trapped in
situations where their familycares more about maintaining the
marriage than the well-being oftheir own daughter and when she
calls home, the parents don'tsay just come home.
They say pray about it, bekinder to your abuser, and that
is not okay.
And if you are one of thosewomen, if you know one of those
(51:15):
women, and if you are one ofthose women, if you know one of
those women, please know it'snot okay.
It's not your fault.
This is not the way it shouldbe.
Only you know what your nextstep needs to be.
But please trust yourself.
Please know that if others pushback against you, looking out
to protect yourself and yourchildren, that's a failure on
(51:36):
their part.
You're not doing anything wrong.
Listen to your gut and thentake initiative when it tells
you.
So we're going to pause here andwrap up this part of our book
review, and then we'll be backnext week for part two, where
we'll talk about rebuilding lifeafter leaving and what that
(51:56):
looked like for Tia in the bookand what lessons we can learn
from that as well.
The book is such a prime examplethe way that midlife pivots are
never easy and each one has itsown unique set of challenges
and rewards.
So in an upcoming episode notthe next episode, but an
upcoming episode we're going todo a deep dive into Rebecca's
(52:17):
experiences starting collegeafter 40 and her day-to-day
experiences.
What's it like?
So we want to know what you,our listeners, are curious about
.
Text us a question you have forRebecca about what it's been
like to go to college in midlife.
There are no stupid questions.
We want this podcast to be aplace where it's safe to ask the
kinds of questions Google can'tanswer, and we can promise you
(52:41):
you're probably not the only onewith that question.
Someone is going to be sograteful that you asked it, so
click on the link in our shownotes and send us your questions
.
We'll talk more soon.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Thank you.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want
to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We want to talk about the questions we didn't know
who to ask and the options wedidn't know we had, so whether
you're feeling stuck or alreadyshaking things up, we are here
to cheer you on and assure youthat the best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, Welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:08):
This is Naomi.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And this is Rebecca.
So today we're kind of doingsomething we've not ever done
before, right?
This isn't a take two, this isa take three.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
This is a take three.
I'm not sure if we should beproud of our persistence and
high standards or if we shouldfeel bad about that.
Feel bad that it's taken usthree times.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Maybe it just points to the importance of the subject
that we're talking about.
Well, fair, the importance ofthe subject that we're talking
about and also, you know therespect that I think we owe the
author Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
So we're here to talk about Tia Leving's book that
just came out recentlyWell-Trained Wife and this book
hit both of us really hard, in agood way, I think.
We both sped, read through itand then had so much to say that
we'll probably be breaking thisup into a two-part book review,
(02:15):
and what we're going to do isstart out by giving us a short
summary of the book, and thenwe're going to go through and
talk about some of the passagesthat struck us and some of the
themes that we see coming upagain and again.
So, before we get into thesummary, why did this book make
(02:37):
such an impression on you,rebecca?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
You know, I think for many of us, we are told to play
according to the rules, we'retold to listen to the elders,
we're told what God's will isgoing to be for our lives and,
of course, the ultimate desireis to please God and then, of
course, get to heaven.
(02:59):
And I think oftentimes we kindof get to a point where it's
like what we're doing isn'tworking, and it's realizing that
when we take the initiative andeven take control for our own
lives, while it feels incrediblyscary and while it's everything
we've been told not to do, atthe end of the day, that's when
(03:22):
real and positive changes happen.
Sometimes that's even whenlives are literally saved.
And I think the other thingthat we forget is, at the end of
the day, we are responsible forthe way we individually order
and control our lives and wedon't have to merely react to it
(03:44):
.
And I think Tia does anincredible job of displaying
this in her words.
How about?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
you.
I agree with that, and I thinkpart of the power of this book
was how it reminded me of myyounger self.
There were so many of thethought processes she had that I
could identify with, so, eventhough our lived realities were
very different, it was amazinghow many times she described her
(04:15):
perspective on something thatreally resonated with me, and it
also reminded me why we wantedto even start this podcast in
the first place.
Reminded me why we wanted toeven start this podcast in the
first place because we know thatwell, as our intro says,
veering off the path assigned tous isn't easy, and since we
(04:35):
can't go back and assure ouryounger selves that our desires
and interests and experiencesmattered, we can share that
message with others who are onthis journey, and I think this
book does a phenomenal job,telling one woman's story of how
she did that, agreed, shereally did an amazing job and
(04:56):
reminded us that we don't alwaysneed to have someone else's
permission.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Sometimes, having your own permission, your own
approval, is all that we reallyneed Right, right.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And that sounds like such a blasphemous thing to say
when you come from a traditionalbackground where it's all about
maintaining the status quo andall about continuing the norms,
and yet we see time and timeagain that that is the very
thing that will set us free.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
And doing this doesn't mean you're selfish.
Doing this doesn't mean you'rebeing rebellious.
Doing this doesn't mean allthose things we've been taught.
It simply means we're takingresponsibility for our lives and
sometimes our children's lives,Right?
Speaker 2 (05:44):
right?
Yes, it can be a very nuancedissue, and that's what we're
here to talk about, so maybeI'll kick this off with the
summary and then we'll getstarted.
Oh, before we do that, though,trigger warning.
We don't do a lot of contentwarnings, and maybe it's because
the whole podcast could merit ablanket trigger warning, but
(06:11):
there's lots of disturbingcontent here, right?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Absolutely.
Her book probably covers everytype of abuse imaginable and
it's kind of heavy materialimaginable.
And it's kind of heavy materialbut also it's empowering
material and so yeah, for ourlisteners, be kind to yourselves
.
If you need to take breaks,that's totally okay.
(06:35):
If you need to talk about itwith somebody, absolutely do
that, because while it's heavy,while it's moments of great
sadness, it is also veryempowering and absolutely
beautifully written, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I should also mention that there might be spoilers.
There's not a lot to spoil inthe book, but you'll probably
enjoy this conversation more ifyou have read it.
So you might want to go do thatbefore you read it and then
come back.
And I should also mention Iwoke up this morning with a
migraine.
I took my meds and I think I'mgoing to be okay.
(07:15):
But sometimes I have longerpauses than normal between my
words because my brain is movinga little slowly.
So you might have to turn up.
Our listeners might have toturn up the speed of the audio,
and I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Migraines are no fun, are you?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
okay, yeah, I'm fine.
I'm fine, I'm just slow, that'sokay, that's all right, okay,
so in A Well-Trained Wife, tiaLevings shares her journey
through an escape fromevangelical fundamentalism.
The book begins with herfamily's move from rural
Michigan to Jacksonville,florida, in the early 1980s
(07:58):
where, as a young girl, sheattended a mainstream Southern
Baptist megachurch.
There she learned the preceptsof purity, culture and personal
devotion to God.
When her young adult dreams ofart school and then Bible
college were pushed aside, shedutifully followed the path of
early marriage, a path thatpromised love, acceptance and
(08:18):
belonging.
Later, as a young wife andmother, she was taken under the
wing of quote-unquote Gothardmom mentors at church.
These women, with their longlines of well-behaved children
in tow, introduced her to thehousehold management strategies
of Terry Maxwell, theauthoritarian parenting methods
of Michael and Debbie Pearl andthe larger world of
(08:41):
fundamentalist homeschooling.
While Tia's mentors were urgingher to adopt denim jumpers and
blanket training, their husbandswere introducing her husband to
Christian fundamentalistpatriarchy.
In the years that followed, onerigid fundamentalist dogma led
to another.
As her husband battled hisdemons, tia battled for her life
(09:06):
.
This beautifully written memoiris filled with prescient
insights about the trad wifelife when you don't have a
lucrative social media followingor a trust fund to back you.
It also exposes the emptypromises of high demand religion
, and why breaking all thesocial norms to trust your gut
(09:27):
and take initiative is likely tobe the very thing that saves
you.
So, rebecca, what are some ofthe moments you couldn't stop
thinking about after readingthis book?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, you know, as she starts the book, they had
just moved from Michigan toJacksonville, florida, and there
was a lot of grief in that foryoung Tia.
She loved her world in Michiganand there was a quote in the
book where she wrote and thiswas her mom making sense of the
(10:06):
move.
But her mom said we wereheadstrong in Michigan.
We didn't pray together, havedevotions or go to church enough
.
We had to stay in Jacksonvilleto be disciplined by God.
And I thought it wasfascinating how easily and
quickly, and even how familiarthis felt to me that
(10:27):
fundamentalism gave Tia's mom,tia's family, a way to make
sense of their life experiences.
But in fact it was simply aconfusing and unstable US
economy.
And I think we all have timesin our lives where it's
(10:49):
confusing, where it's unstable,and we're simply trying to make
sense.
And what if those momentsaren't necessarily about God
punishing us or God bringing usback to him, but it's just
simply part of what happens inlife.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So are you saying that fundamentalism gave her
family a narrative that herfather's job loss wasn't about
economic forces beyond theircontrol and one of many, many
others who lost their jobsduring that time too but that it
was their lack of dedication toGod that forced them to move to
(11:33):
Florida from Michigan and leavetheir home in Michigan?
And so it's a very familiar wayto me, too, of seeing the world
.
I have family members who tendto see day-to-day events that
happen as God doing this or thatin their life, and what's
unfortunate to me is then theydon't they miss the fact that
(11:57):
this is something that'shappening to lots of other
people.
Right, the economy affects lotsof people, everybody, but
fundamentalism gives a storythat distracts from that and
instead makes financial failurea personal failure Right.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
When it's almost like this empty promise of if you do
things right, with God, badthings like that won't happen.
Right, and it feels likefundamentalism is simply a way
of magnifying socialdysfunctions like sexism, like
poverty, like job loss, thingsthat are normal.
(12:33):
But it magnifies these socialdysfunctions that are already in
culture but kind of just cranksup the intensity and when
everyone finally gets in line wecall it a virtue.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right, well, you mentioned sexism.
Sexism is a real thing in boththe secular world, the religious
world, the fundamentalist world.
But what we see in this book,and what those of us who've
experienced, is thatfundamentalism takes sexism and
says this is a good thing.
Actually, we need to reinforcethis hierarchy and call it a
(13:12):
virtue.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Agreed, and I think they even do it with poverty,
because, on one hand, if you arestruggling financially, it's
God punishing you, but yetthere's that attitude of they're
there, you'll get there,they're there.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, so kind of like bootstrapping.
It gives a religious, it givesa spiritual veneer to the
secular bootstrapping.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the American dream and allthat, yeah.
So once Tia's family wassettled in Florida they found
themselves part of a megachurch,one of the largest churches in
(13:54):
the Southeast.
It's a Southern Baptist church,so very much a mainstream kind
of church.
And she talks about some of herimpressions and I have to say
she does such a beautiful job ofdescribing her world in very
concise terms.
(14:14):
So every word carries lots ofmeaning and you liked her
description of church right Ofthe music at church.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
I had to laugh she was talking about, and I think
music was kind of.
Especially in her younger yearsmusic was kind of a big thing
for her.
But she talked about how Sundaymornings they usually sang two
blood songs and one heaven songand I thought this was so
(14:48):
hilarious.
The way Christians glory in thewhole blood narrative to me is
always so fascinating.
It's vampire, it's gore, it'sdramatic and if it was any other
(15:11):
genre other than our salvation,we would call it bad, a blood
cult.
Yeah yeah.
And I just think it'sfascinating how much blood songs
were part of our history.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, I think that's part of the magic of her writing
.
Is that without saying that,she's calling that to our
attention?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Right, right, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, it's
brilliant.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
It's brilliant.
Now, another lasting impressionof church was the minister who
would preach over the pulpitabout the dangers of movies and
the dangers of going toblockbuster and the dangers of
what else.
There were lots of things likethat, also instructing parents
to maintain control over theirteens, and this message that
(16:04):
came through again and again wasone of control between parents
and children, between the churchand the membership, and there
was not a message of connection,of developing connection, and
what's interesting to me is howmany of these messages seem to
(16:27):
kind of fly over the heads ofthe parents.
Or at least her parents didn'tcompletely buy into the dogma
and yet she took those lessonsfrom the pulpit very seriously
Not that she wanted to give upmovies, but she felt guilty and
enough that she felt like shehad to hide that part of herself
(16:48):
and also the teachings atsummer camp, and that was really
where she got a lot of thepurity culture messages and she
learned oh, this is what I needto do, these are the rules I
need to follow in order to beloved, and I think that is a
good reminder for me that whenmy children are exposed to
different messages, to sit downand talk with them about it,
(17:11):
because I can't just assume thatthey know that I don't buy into
this or that idea.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And it's also interesting, while this was
being presented over themainstream church's pulpit,
largely people weren't taking itliterally and seriously until
she moved into thefundamentalist groups.
So again it was almost likemainstream was kind of saying
(17:43):
things, but it was the nextlevel of weird that took it
literally.
Rigidity yeah, Rigidity isprobably a better term.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yes, and along with that, different kids responded
to the teachings differently.
Where she got caught up in thatrigidity, her sister didn't,
and her sister went to a lot ofthe same, or my impression is
that her sister, you know, wasexposed to many of these same
messages and for whatever reason, they they didn't take with
(18:18):
with her sister the way they didwith her.
But Tia was very, she's highlyintuitive, she's very aware,
she's very conscientious, she'staking in information, it's not
just flying over her head, and Ithink those of us who can
identify with that, we're morelikely to absorb those messages
and and they may have led to alot, they may have have led to a
(18:41):
lot of anxiety for us yeah, oh,absolutely.
I absolutely identify with thatas tia moves through her 10
years, she's a young adult fullof dreams and goals.
She excels at art and writingand she's getting a lot of
encouragement at school topursue these things.
(19:03):
But then at church she'sgetting the message that this is
going to be less than Godhonoring, and when the money
doesn't show up, well, that'sevidence it's not God's will for
her to go to art school.
Then Tia thinks well, wait aminute, what about Bible college
?
And maybe the church would helpfund it, because they had a
(19:25):
history of funding students whoare going to Bible college, and
so this might be an avenue forher to continue her education.
And she had this brief exchangewith the minister that I think
had a very different impact thanwhat was intended.
She mustered up her courage totake the initiative to ask the
(19:47):
minister about the possibilityof funding for Bible college.
But before they even gotstarted, when she entered the
office, the minister offered herthis plate of delicious looking
candies and when she acceptedthem and reached out to take one
, they turned out to be fake.
I think they were like ceramicor something, and it was a dumb
(20:08):
joke at her expense and as ayoung girl she felt embarrassed.
It took her off balance and Ijust had to wonder was that a
control tactic on the part ofthe minister?
Was he intentionally trying tomake her ill at ease as a way to
assert his dominance?
Was it a lesson to not trusther own instincts?
(20:32):
And I think, why not validateher courage and resourcefulness?
I can't help but think that ifshe had been a boy, her courage
and resourcefulness would havebeen rewarded.
And in fact what he said was ohno, those funds are reserved
for young men who are going topreaching school, and so no, we
(20:57):
would not waste that money on ayoung woman.
And I'm sure the ministerdidn't think twice about that
meeting.
But I think, about the impactthat must have made on young Tia
and the lessons that she gotfrom it, that the minister
didn't intend, or did he?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah, that's the million dollar question, because
sometimes I think those jokesare used for a purpose Right.
And I think it's alsointeresting that those fake
candies could easily be seen asrepresenting so many of the fake
promises that these churchleaders often make to young
(21:40):
people, to many people.
And these carrots dangled infront of people keep them doing
those jumping jacks for Jesus.
It keeps promising you know,get this right, do this right,
and then this will happen.
And it's oftentimes just fake,it's a carrot you can't quite
(22:05):
grasp Right.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And if it's a fake candy, it turns out when you do
grasp it, you maybe don't wantit after all.
You chip your tooth and chokeon it.
Exactly.
She doesn't expressly say thatthat was the lesson that she
took away from it, but well, Idid.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
It gets interesting to me that even in the moment
where she is being turned downfor taking initiative, she was
learning something about whatshe could expect from her church
, family and whatnot, and Ican't help but think that
informed her choices down theroad, even though she was turned
(22:45):
down and on one hand we couldsay it was her taking initiative
there wasn't successful, justended up with her being
embarrassed.
When I look at that now, havingread the whole book, I'm so
proud of her.
I am so proud of her for takingthat step, and it's not her
fault that the minister was ajerk.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Oh, absolutely.
I don't think we applaud thebravery and courage that it
takes for people to do that typeof thing, regardless how it
turns out.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right, right, especially people who have been
groomed to not take initiative,which I don't know that that was
as intense for Tia as it maybewas for some of us, but yeah,
very, very true.
So this kind of rule followingmessage continues to follow her
as she is maturing as a youngwoman.
(23:36):
When college is eliminated asan option for her, she's really
floundering for a little bit,wondering what is she supposed
to do next.
And during that time, we cansee that the things that made
her unique, the things that werestrengths for her, the things
that she could have reallyexcelled at, were being pared
(23:59):
away from her life.
There's a line no to what Iwanted, so I could say yes to
God.
It was presented to her as aneither or she couldn't follow
her interests and follow God.
No to college, art and boys hecouldn't be husbands.
Time was ticking and so, againand again, she had to choose
between her dreams, on one hand,or following the rules, which
(24:23):
is how she would gain love andacceptance and the approval of
God, right being in God's will.
And so she absorbed the messageagain and again that being
loved meant abandoning herself.
Being loved came at the cost ofthe things that mattered to her
, and I think this is anexperience that many of us can
identify.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Absolutely, and I think it's something that is
almost so normal that you don'treally think about it until it
kind of like smacks you in theface.
But she points out how thechurch promised women that quote
if you keep yourself pure, youwill be a special utensil for
honorable use.
I mean, who thought this was agood translation?
(25:05):
Women are so easily reduced toa kitchen utensil.
It's just sad.
It's sad.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And she hints at this at certain points along the way
and then later on in the book,after she's married and has
children and she is strugglingwithin that situation, she says
to a friend it's almost as if Icould be swapped out.
Leah, Anyone could mother mychildren according to his wishes
(25:35):
, Because of course, that washow she was supposed to be a
mother.
According to his wishes, Anyonecould clean the house.
Anyone could be me, Becauseeverything that is uniquely me
is choked off and shamed away.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
You know, that kind of hit me and I couldn't help
but wonder if.
Is that part of the plan, evenif it's subconscious?
Is that part of the plan tokeep reminding us women that we
are replaceable?
We really aren't that needed?
It reminds me a little bit of alot of work environments oh,
(26:12):
we're family here.
We're family here until theydon't really need you or until
you don't quite perform the waythey want.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
I agree, and I think it's a lot easier to control
widgets, it's a lot easier tocontrol objects than human
beings.
And I think when we repress andsquelch our emotions and
talents, our interests, I thinkit's important for us to think
(26:45):
about the cost.
What is the cost of cutting off, squelching those parts of
ourselves?
Now, in the short term, wemight get acceptance and love,
and those are our core needs forhuman beings, and so that's a
huge incentive to follow thenorms.
(27:06):
But the long-term costs arealso really important to think
about, because how long until wequit feeling other feelings and
as we quit feeling, we quitcaring, how long before we quit
listening to our instincts andjust kind of chalk them up as so
in women's silly emotions?
(27:26):
And I think we should askourselves is it really that God
doesn't value our uniqueness, oris our individuality
inconvenient for those who wantto control us?
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Just recently I read a phrase it's more safe to
suffocate in a box than it is tobe raked over hot coals, and I
think of that so often.
Sometimes it feels like thoseare the two options we have, and
you need to be raked over hotcoals one time to realize how
(28:00):
painful that is and how unsafeit is to play outside the
sandbox that you've been given.
And I think about howdesperately leaders try to evade
emotions.
I mean, she talked about howeven funerals were called
(28:21):
homegoings, and I think aboutfunerals in my past.
How easily we try to make it acelebration and instead of
honoring the person who haspassed, we like to make it a
call for repentance and a callfor preparation.
(28:42):
I've even been to funeralswhere they have altar calls.
And are we so uncomfortablewith emotions that even at
funerals we can't tap into ourgrief and hold space for
mourning?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
So, as Tia is telling the story of her young
motherhood and marriage and thechallenges that she was facing,
as well as the Gothard moms whowere mentoring her and coaching
her in fundamentalist ways, shetalks about some of the books
(29:26):
that were recommended to her.
One of those books is theExcellent Wife.
Is it by Martha Pease?
Yeah, the point Tia was makingwas how many of these
fundamentalist marriage booksimplicitly condone or explicitly
, more often, implicitly condonedomestic violence.
(29:50):
And there is one line in thebook it's okay for the husband
to beat the wife.
Martha did say and this writerdenied it later, but it's
undeniable when you look at whatshe actually wrote.
Now, even more to the point, inthe back of the book she had a
chart of different scenarioswhere women might struggle to
(30:13):
trust God, and then there'sappropriate verses for each of
these occasions.
And some of those challengesthat women might be facing were
things about bitterness orstruggles to forgive, or
struggles to common relationshipstruggles.
But then also the chartincluded scenarios like if I
(30:37):
don't want him to hurt meanymore, here's a Bible verse
for that.
If I wish I had a gun to killhim, here's a Bible verse for
that.
If I want to kill myself.
Here's a Bible verse for that.
If I want to kill myself,here's a Bible verse for that.
How telling is it that in a bookon Christian marriage, two
(30:59):
women, these concerns are socommon that they need to be
included.
The thought that a Bible verseis going to take care of these
problems.
A big problem there.
Big problem that this is justcommon and not a huge concern.
And once more, if marriage isfor life and we're talking about
(31:22):
relationships where thesefeelings and these fears are
present, that's not the goodlife, that's a life sentence.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
So do you think by including it in a book like this
, they normalize it to the pointthat you're ashamed to speak
about it.
Because if we normalize it andgive you Bible verses that you
should be quoting, then ifyou're still thinking these
thoughts, you obviously aren'tquoting enough Bible verses or
(31:56):
believing the right things.
And Bare Marriage actually doesan entire podcast on this book
and I haven't listened to it yet, but I think it would be really
fascinating to listen to it.
Oh, it's very good, it's verygood and it's frightening.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
It's frightening because she was not in
Anabaptist groups, but this waspassed around our church groups
as well, and I think those kindsof messages, when we combine
them with all the directives tojust wait on God's provision,
just pray, let go and let God,all those directives start to
(32:35):
look a whole lot more like shutup and cooperate and perpetuate
the system.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Right.
There was a phrase that sheused that kind of was the crux
almost of the entire book, and Ithink it was used at least
twice in the book.
But today it hit me.
Maybe, maybe it was up to me tosave me, and I think she's so
right.
We can save ourselves, and thething is, people can save
(33:04):
themselves we.
They don't need anyone'spermission or approval to do so.
We can simply follow our gutfeeling of it is time, our gut
feeling of it is time, and noone needs to stay in
relationships where theirdominating thought is I don't
want him to hurt me anymore, Iwant to kill myself.
(33:27):
There is no need ever to stayin a relationship like that.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
And I think the narrative is so often oh, but
what's it going to do to thechildren if you break up the
home?
And I think the more importantquestion is what's it going to
do to the children if you keepthem in that?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
And I think we need to be really careful, because
there are not just churchleaders that are promoting this
message, there's alsopoliticians that are promoting
this message, and when youremove a woman's right to leave,
we are in big trouble,absolutely, absolutely.
Additionally, I think thiswaiting on God keeps us stuck.
It keeps us praying harder,keeps us trying.
(34:09):
It keeps us on this hamsterwheel of just trying to get it
right.
Do we need to dance this way?
Do we need to move this way?
How do we need to pivot?
And all of a sudden, I think somany reach a point where you
just cannot do it anymore.
And then there's thisrealization that, with all this
(34:31):
praying and all this trying, allthis dancing, maybe I'm in fact
the only person involved whowants things to change, and that
is a really bitter anddifficult realization.
And then they wonder why weleave.
Then the church sits back andwonders why people are done.
(34:52):
It doesn't take a rocketscience to figure this out.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Right.
Speaking of false promises, shetalks about how the church's
promise to comfort thevulnerable through the grieving
was really an attractive messageto her family, and this is kind
of reverting back to when shewas younger and this is what
really drew her mom intoattending church again.
(35:17):
Here they were, newly arrivedin Florida, just trying to get
their bearings and reestablishtheir life and recover from a
financial setback, and thechurch offered comfort and a
narrative to make sense ofthings.
And yet what they and so manyothers find that along with that
(35:39):
sense of community comes thingsthat they didn't know, things
that they weren't prepared for.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
I think realistically .
Often what happens is thevulnerable are groomed.
They get them to show up, theypromise them blessings, they get
them to and, in many ways, takeadvantage of them.
Right now I see a lot ofchurches promoting this idea of
(36:07):
we are a safe place for ahurting world, and it makes me
cringe.
Churches who typically say thisthe loudest are the worst with
helping single moms, they arethe worst for helping immigrants
, they are the worst for simplybeing there, and it feels like
(36:28):
they're often a safe place forthe wealthy.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
For those who already belong.
Right, and I just want to say,too, that this is not something
that you are just speculatingabout, right.
This is from your personalobservation in working with
folks who are in desperate needof resources and struggle to
find them.
Again and again, you find thatchurches are just unwilling to
(36:55):
make good on that promise.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh, absolutely, and I mean I can think of so few
churches who actually take careand help abuse victims.
Churches don't want to enterthat messy.
It's annoying.
The answers aren't clear, cutRight.
And it certainly doesn't bringthem more money and more revenue
(37:21):
.
And it doesn't build biggerchurches.
And if we think about it, IBLPpromised rest, healing, safety,
identity and belonging.
I mean, what these churches arepromising isn't anything new,
and often what ends up happeningis these systems tend to place
more scrutiny on the abusedindividuals or on the vulnerable
(37:44):
than they do on the abuser.
I mean, how often do they saywell, you know what you do is
more important than whathappened to you.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Really, Really, you know.
It reminds me of theobservation that in human
interactions, we usually deferto the source of the most toxic
behavior in the room.
It's true.
And I think in these kinds ofsituations often the most
vulnerable person is the easiestto manage, easiest to control,
(38:17):
and so it's easy to focus ontheir behavior, what they did
wrong, than to the real problem,because the real problems are
often much more difficult tosolve, which kind of brings us
to the next point.
I actually had a conversationwhere people were trying to
point out the fact that, well,alan Tia's ex-husband had mental
(38:40):
illness, and while mentalillness absolutely had a
component in this story, Doesthat statement imply that it
wasn't really that there was aproblem with the church
community, it was a problem withhis mental illness, that that
was the source of their problemsand it was not a faith issue?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, and almost it was that, but it was almost also
this notion that it's someonewith a mental illness who wants
power, and it's someone with amental illness.
Who desires control?
Speaker 2 (39:14):
The patriarchal dysfunction.
The patriarchal dysfunction wasa manifestation of the mental
illness.
Okay, okay, interesting.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
And I disagree.
I think environments like thisjust give those people a place
to live and a place to even, atsome level, excel live and a
place to even, at some level,excel.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Well, the leaders were encouraging him to be more
controlling.
They moved them to a placewhere he could spend more hours
at home so he could keep tabs onher more.
If his controlling and abusivetactics were a result of the
mental illness, the leaders werejust encouraging that.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Well and we all know leaders who are not mentally ill
, who love power and control.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Well, and the reality is, these groups usually don't
have resources for dealing withmental illness, and what we're
really talking about is asituation where there were
problems that were evident inthe family, but these church
leaders exacerbated the problems, and it's not just this one guy
who was mentally ill, it was awhole system.
(40:33):
It was a whole system that wasprotecting him without getting
him help or resources Rightright and in the process, was
harming the family.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Yeah, and it was ultimately when Tia paid
attention to her intuition, whenshe heard the words run, that
literally saved her and herchildren's lives, and I think
her story so proves andillustrates the tragedies that
we can avoid when women, butalso, I think, men learn to pay
(41:08):
attention and listen to theirgut and to their instinct.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
And I think it takes a lot of bravery to do this
Takes so much bravery when thesocial norm has been established
that following the rules,working within the hierarchy,
submitting to those who have therule over you, that that is the
righteous thing to do, that'sthe virtuous thing to do, and I
(41:33):
think we're here to say Tia'sstory shows us how misled that
can be and why it's worthbreaking out of those roles.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I think it's Richard Rohr that says religion is for
those who are afraid of hell,spirituality is for those who
have lived through hell.
And I think at some point inthis whole mix, you reach the
realization that this is hell.
This isn't about dying andgoing to hell, this is about
living in hell.
(42:04):
And I think when a personreaches that point, this whole
narrative of fear of theafterlife loses its power.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
You know, I think one of the most hopeful parts of
the book were the moments whenTia interacted with someone from
outside the bubble, outside hercommunity, and I think what is
so valuable is for us to thinkabout the potential impact that
strangers, folks outside thebubble, have for breaking the
(42:41):
spell of authoritarian control.
I think of a bystander whoexpressed concern when she was
attacked as a young girl.
Think of Trapdoor.
This was an online forum thatshe was part of, and this was a
group of rural, breakinghomeschool moms who helped her
(43:03):
get back in touch with herinterests in art and writing and
intellectual pursuits after shewas a mom and deep in
fundamentalist circles drowning.
There were other mothers at theNICU when her daughter was in
the hospital, who gave herlife-saving advice.
(43:24):
The Orthodox priest who helpedher escape.
Ultimately, all these bystanderswere so powerful because of
their compassion.
Their compassion was whispersof affirmation that said I see
you, you don't need to live thisway, and I just can't emphasize
(43:44):
enough how compassion from astranger is often the kindest
thing that someone in a highdemand religion will have
experienced, especially someonewho is in a difficult situation.
They are often told that theworld, that, however hard life
(44:04):
is within the bubble.
It's even harder outside thebubble.
But a stranger's compassioncracks open that lie.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
It absolutely does, and I think so often.
This idea that this is wheresafety is, inside this bubble,
inside this group, this is wheresafety is, this is where
belonging is, this is whereJesus is, and outside this group
, oy, oy, that's danger, that'sall the bad things.
(44:32):
And kindness from outsiders andperspectives from outsiders
absolutely bursts that narrative.
It challenges that narrative.
I've always been a littlecautious when people fuss about
social media, the dangers ofsocial media, yeah.
And well, I get it, Wow, I getit.
(44:53):
There's dangers, there'sproblems.
Social media also saves livesand I think sometimes the
fussing about social media andthe dangers involved with that
can be a means to control andshrink someone else's world.
It was social media where Ilearned about gentle parenting.
(45:14):
It was social media where Istumbled onto Rachel Held Evans'
blog and started deconstructingwhen deconstructing wasn't even
a thing and gave me not justpermission but approval or
affirmation that the things Iwas seeing was actually real,
(45:46):
that I wasn't making things upand that you weren't the only
one seeing them.
And that wasn't just you,exactly.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
It wasn't your delusion Right, isn't that true?
And now that you say that, backin 2000, so we're talking
pre-social media, the internetwas a really important part of
my breaking free from highdemand religion too.
So when I was part of the smallfundamentalist church in
(46:20):
Oklahoma City, my friend and Iwere becoming increasingly
concerned about some of thedynamics that we were seeing,
and it was starting to feel alittle bit like deja vu, like
wait, haven't we seen these, youknow, kind of the fear,
obligation and guilt, the kindof exclusivity, the kind of you
know, just all that.
(46:40):
That just started to feel verylike, disturbingly familiar, and
I started to wonder oh mygoodness, did we go through that
difficult thing just to land inthe same kind of place again?
So my friend goes well, I knowwe're not a cult, you know we're
just serving God, but how wouldwe know if we were a cult?
(47:01):
How would we know?
And so she got on the computerat work and Googled
characteristics of a cult.
Well, she found a list ofcharacteristics of spiritual
abuse and she brought me thislist and said check it out.
And it just stunned both of us,because here we thought we were
the special little group, thislist of characteristics of
(47:25):
spiritual abuse were like boom,boom, boom.
It was like someone was lookingin our windows and describing
the group.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
And we were gone within a few days.
Isn't that amazing?
It's amazing when speciallittle groups aren't so special.
Speaker 2 (47:39):
It blew my mind and I took the next.
How many years readingeverything I could find on the
topic because, yes, nothingspecial about it I learned that
we were one in a million, butnot in the way we thought,
exactly, exactly.
So Tia talks about craving whatit meant to be well-read and
(48:03):
educated and she really wantedto experience and understand and
see connections within thebroader world, and Trapdoor was
the forum that really scratchedthat itch.
And I think what is soimportant here is how her
initiative and reaching out andfinding these sources outside
(48:24):
the group not only fed her soul,but those connections to people
outside her little bubble alsohelped save her later when she
was running for her lifeLiterally helped save her later
when she was running for herlife Literally, literally.
And when we are discouragedfrom making connections outside
our group, whether that is justthrough friendship or through
(48:49):
learning or interests, hobbies,that kind of thing, instead of
being suspicious of the peopleoutside our bubble, we need to
be suspicious of why our bubbleis trying to cut us off from
people outside, because it wasthose connections that were her
lifeline, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Something else that I think is so important, and this
is something I'm kind ofpassionate about.
When Tia knew it was time torun, when she heard the words
run, she ended up calling hermom and she wrote just come home
, mom said and that's what I didand parents who care more about
(49:30):
a marriage than about their kidwho's within the marriage need
to stop.
Parents who care more aboutyour kid's preferred gender than
the kid's actual life need tostop.
When you care so much that youshut your kids off, you are
(49:51):
setting up your kid to bevulnerable and taken advantage
of.
When you don't care about yourkid and set a standard, no one
is going to care about your kid.
Tia talks about how herex-husband was always a little
nervous and a little bit worriedabout her parents' perception
(50:12):
of him, and I'm convinced thatwas some of the saving grace in
Tia's life.
And parents, your attitudetowards your child sets a
precedent for how others willtreat them, and if you treat
your child with disrespect, itinvites their future spouse to
treat them with disrespect aswell, and I think we need to be
(50:37):
so very careful when we seeparents disrespecting their
children, disowning theirchildren.
It sets them up for failure,but it also sets them up for
abuse he is.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
There are hundreds of women who are also trapped in
situations where their familycares more about maintaining the
marriage than the well-being oftheir own daughter and when she
calls home, the parents don'tsay just come home.
They say pray about it, bekinder to your abuser, and that
is not okay.
And if you are one of thosewomen, if you know one of those
(51:15):
women, and if you are one ofthose women, if you know one of
those women, please know it'snot okay.
It's not your fault.
This is not the way it shouldbe.
Only you know what your nextstep needs to be.
But please trust yourself.
Please know that if others pushback against you, looking out
to protect yourself and yourchildren, that's a failure on
(51:36):
their part.
You're not doing anything wrong.
Listen to your gut and thentake initiative when it tells
you.
So we're going to pause here andwrap up this part of our book
review, and then we'll be backnext week for part two, where
we'll talk about rebuilding lifeafter leaving and what that
(51:56):
looked like for Tia in the bookand what lessons we can learn
from that as well.
The book is such a prime examplethe way that midlife pivots are
never easy and each one has itsown unique set of challenges
and rewards.
So in an upcoming episode notthe next episode, but an
upcoming episode we're going todo a deep dive into Rebecca's
(52:17):
experiences starting collegeafter 40 and her day-to-day
experiences.
What's it like?
So we want to know what you,our listeners, are curious about
.
Text us a question you have forRebecca about what it's been
like to go to college in midlife.
There are no stupid questions.
We want this podcast to be aplace where it's safe to ask the
kinds of questions Google can'tanswer, and we can promise you
(52:41):
you're probably not the only onewith that question.
Someone is going to be sograteful that you asked it, so
click on the link in our shownotes and send us your questions
.
We'll talk more soon.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
Thank you for spending time with us today.
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (53:14):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (53:34):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Thank you.
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