August 18, 2024 • 66 mins
Ever wondered what it's like to break free from a high-control environment? Join us as we celebrate Tia Leving's incredible achievement—her book "A Well-Trained Wife" has skyrocketed to the New York Times bestseller list.
We share stories from our own past about compassionate bystanders who made a big difference and offer practical suggestions for ways to meaningfully support those in a major life transition or in a crisis situation.
We also talk about the complex emotions of loss and new beginnings when cherished dreams crumble into dust. We reflect on the inevitable grief of unmet expectations and the magic of learning to hold mystery, uncertainty, and two competing truths at once.
Finally, we touch on the unexpected influence of evangelical fundamentalism and Calvinism on contemporary Anabaptist communities, scratching our heads at the seeming contradictions and unlikely resonances between these religious traditions given their vociferous theological differences in past centuries.
Show Notes:
A Well-Trained Wife by Tia Levings
Ep. 37 - Part 1 of our discussion about A Well-Trained Wife
Rebecca's Post: Stepping off the Tightrope: A Journey of Faith, Struggle, and Redemption
Naomi’s Post: Unveiling the Unseen: Navigating Obstacles and Opportunities on the Way to College
Jana Duggar…A Mennonite? Christian Nationalism among the Evangelicalized Mennonites by Rebekah Mui
Straight White American Jesus podcast by Brad Onishi and Dan Miller
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want
to share with fellow travelers.
We want to talk about thequestions we didn't know who to
ask and the options we didn'tknow we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca, so today we're
continuing the conversationabout Tia Leving's book A
Well-Trained Wife, very excitedto see it hit the New York Times
bestseller list.
Not at all a surprise, but veryexciting nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I am so proud of her.
I just think it is fabulousthat she is getting this type of
attention and this type ofrecognition.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right and I think the timing is so important and I
think her book has a messagethat so many people in the
mainstream need to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, I think that we forget how many people haven't
made connections about some ofthe things she's talking about,
and I'm glad the message isgetting out there, right,
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
But before we get back to all of that, first a
warm welcome to all the newfolks around here.
We love seeing your responsesand we're just so glad you're
here and hope to hear more fromyou.
We don't want this to just be aone-way conversation, with us
talking at you, but we want tohear back from you, so we look
(02:26):
forward to getting to know youas well.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I'll let you in on a little secret.
The truth is, naomi and I arenot the smartest people involved
here.
Conversations you all bring upand the insights you have
absolutely energize us but alsoteach us new thoughts and new
angles of looking at it, and ourpodcast is absolutely made
(02:54):
better because of you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So, so true, Absolutely.
Now, if someone is new here andwondering who are we, why do we
have a podcast?
Well, first of all, who doesn'thave a podcast these days?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
But we wanted to be as cool as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But the other reason is something that we go into in
some recent posts that each ofus wrote for Saloma Furlong's
blog, and we'll link those inthe show notes, and these were
written versions of the talksthat we gave at the symposium
(03:37):
the Amish Scholar Symposium thatwas held earlier this summer.
So if you're curious, check outthose links and they'll tell
you a little bit about ourbackground, where we grew up and
how we came to be doing thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So in the last episode we talked about the
power of outsiders for breakingthe spell that we often find in
high control groups.
Outsiders absolutely affectedthe way Tia Lovings was able to
make changes and I think formany of us who left, we would
(04:13):
say that that was true.
But outsiders also play a hugerole in helping people rebuild
afterwards and I thinkoftentimes these outsiders might
be even unaware of what they'redoing and in the ways that
they're helping, but it's simplypeople who are being kind Right
(04:35):
.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think this is even more likely to be the case since
the book is getting the widecirculation that it is, so I
hope that translates to ourlisteners as well, because this
is relevant for people from allwalks of life, not just from a
high control group Right.
(04:57):
What I was thinking about inrelation to this was the
personal experience that Imentioned in our last episode
which, by the way, if youhaven't heard that, everything
we're going to say here is goingto make a lot more sense if you
go back and listen to thatfirst.
But in that episode I mentionedwhen I left a high control
(05:19):
group, as in my early 20s and Isaid that after we had figured
some things out and seen adifferent perspective that we
were out in a few days.
The reason we were able to beout in a few days was because of
one of these compassionatebystanders.
I had a colleague at work.
(05:40):
She was just a few years olderthan me.
She had an SUV, so she let meswitch cars with her one night
so that I could take her SUVhome, so we could pack up our
things and move.
She also let us come stay myfriend and I come stay at her
house for about a week or sountil we were able to find our
(06:03):
own place.
She was just the sweetest,kindest person and I am forever
grateful to her for the rolethat she played in that.
Now, it's really not relevantto the story, except that it
does kind of connect to the bookwe're talking about here.
So Tandy, this friend, was amember at a huge Southern
(06:28):
Baptist church so probably a lotlike the one that Tia Leving's
family went to Council RoadBaptist Church in Bethany,
oklahoma if anybody fromOklahoma City area is listening
and she invited me to come tochurch with her and I went once
and I was in such a tender placethat kind of everything was
(06:52):
triggering for me at that point.
I worked with a number ofpeople from this church and
everybody I knew from thatchurch was just the nicest,
kindest, friendliest person.
But then in going to church Ijust like everything that was
coming over the pulpit felt likea commercial, felt like a
here's why you need to join thischurch, because we're so
(07:14):
awesome and I'm sure they'reawesome, like that's, you know.
But where I was I was open forpeople to hang out with.
I didn't want to join a Baptistchurch, I didn't really want to
join any church, but I wantedpeople to hang out with and I
think a lot of us could identifywith this when you've grown up
in a church setting where that'sthe primary social context that
(07:36):
you know, that's where you knowthat's how, that's where you
know how to socialize.
I had someone say to me well,why don't you go out to a bar to
make friends?
I'm like I don't know what todo in a bar.
So that was kind of what I wentto, because that's what I knew
and at the same time it wasreally triggering.
So I never went back, but ithad nothing to do with my friend
(07:56):
, who was just so lovely and Ithink another way this connects.
There were others that I metduring that time, that other
people put me in touch with, whowere people about my age, who
were involved in youth groups.
That was also a Baptist youthgroup, a lot of Baptist churches
.
In fact, as a friend says,every church in Oklahoma is
(08:20):
Southern Baptist, regardless ofwhat the sign out front says.
That's funny.
So that's funny and and that'spretty true.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So and in Holmes County every church is Amish
Mennonite.
I don't know regardless whatthe sign says.
It's kind of true.
It's kind of true.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah so but and I remember in that case going to
Bible studies or youth groupevents and I very quickly
realized oh, I don't want to berecruited to somebody's program,
I just need friends.
And I found it a lot harder tofind friends than to find
(09:02):
somebody recruiting for aprogram.
I don't think my experience isprobably very unique in that way
and I think that's somethingthat could be helpful for
onlookers caring onlookers,compassionate onlookers to know
that people aren't looking to bea project, they want a friend.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know I think that's so important and, on that
note, a project.
They want a friend.
You know I think that's soimportant and, on that note, for
many years I was part of achurch who forever talked about
this notion of you invest so youinvest in relationships, you
invest into your neighborhood sothat you can invite.
So the slogan they always saidwas invest to invite.
(09:43):
And I want to push back on thatnotion because when you do that
, you're forever making aproject out of a person and for
people who have been in highdemand religion, they absolutely
know the minute that theybecome a project.
And there's a huge differencebetween having a friendship and
having a project.
(10:03):
And I'm guilty of this.
I have made people projects andI am so sorry.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I am so sorry, if I ever did that to you.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I am so sorry because I know I did it to people.
And this is me saying I am sosorry because it is hurtful, it
is damaging, but I think at somelevel this is something really
easy for churches.
And we're not projects.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
We're just not projects Because when we're
projects, it's kind of acolonializing project, right
when it's like okay, we're goingto invest in you, We'll show up
when you're having a hard time,we'll be friendly to you when
we see you out in theneighborhood, we'll make those
investments, to use thatlanguage.
But it's all with an ulteriormotive of so.
(10:57):
Therefore, I can invite you tochurch and hopefully you'll
become an upstanding member inthe church and an active member
and our numbers will grow.
And so there's this agenda inthe background, and I think
often the folks in a church whoare the most conscious of that
are probably the mostwell-meaning, the kindest, most
compassionate people, and it'sunfortunate.
But even when it's a kind,compassionate, well-meaning
(11:21):
person who is looking at someonein need, someone in crisis, as
a project, you can feel that andit doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Right, right, and I'm slowly learning that one of the
hardest things to do is show upand be who I want to be and do
what I need to want to do,because that's what I want to
have done when I go to bed atnight.
Yes, end of story.
Yes, not so that I can quoteshow God's love, not so that I
(11:57):
can have stars in my crown.
Should we talk about howhorrible, horrible that notion
is?
I mean, there's songs aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And how unbiblical it is.
If we want to go that direction, yeah, but how about just
feeding the hungry?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
because no one should be hungry.
How about taking care of thekid?
Because every kid should havesomeone who takes care of them.
How about loaning your vehicle?
Because everyone should havesomeone in their life who is a
support system.
And just doing what I dobecause that's who I want.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's one of the most rewarding things about
being involved in your communityoutside of a church or a formal
organization is it frees you todo those things because that's
who you want to be and notbecause you have this ulterior
meaning.
And I think there's a narrativeout there that says if you
(12:55):
don't, if you're not a Christian, if you don't have the threat
of hell hanging over your head,then you're going to go.
You know you're going to go,murder all the people, everybody
.
You get angry with every littlething.
You're going to go out and doall the most horrible things,
when the reality is most of uswant to be decent people.
Most of us can be decent peoplewithout the threat of hell
(13:19):
hanging over us because we'redecent people.
Most people.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right, and I want to just say one more thing, and I
know this because I worked at amega church.
When you invite people tochurch with you every Sunday and
okay, so it's been a few yearssince I've been there, but I'm
assuming this is standardpractice for mega churches
Newcomers are asked to fill outinformation cards and one of the
(13:45):
questions is who invited you?
It feels kind of good when youknow your name is going onto
that card and it feels kind ofgood when you get that
recognition and all of a sudden,you imagine the office people
being like wow, that Rebecca isinviting a lot of people.
It's an ego boost.
Is that what you're saying?
(14:05):
Well, I'm not sure that evenit's an ego boost.
I think it's validation thatyou're doing something for the
Lord, like it's this, it's thiswhich in and of itself is not a
bad thing.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But now that outreach has become about something
other than outreach, theoutreach has become about
showing what a good person youare.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah.
And what if I am quote doingsomething for the Lord without
advertising it?
What if no one needs to know?
And I just want to challengeand push back against that idea.
Just want to challenge and pushback against that idea.
I don't think the church needsto know who invited you.
And then I found out that someof the people I was inviting
(14:55):
were in desperate need and thechurch very begrudging and very
unhelpful with those.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So just think about some of this stuff.
I'm not saying all churches dothis, I'm not saying the agenda
is the same with each and everychurch, but I do think it's
things we should watch.
And no, I do not believe thatyou should invest in anyone so
that you can invite themanywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's not friendship , that's a transaction.
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah.
So we've kind of gone down thatrabbit rabbit trail.
It's relevant if tangential.
So, turning our attention backto the book, the last part of it
is about how Tia is rebuildingher life after leaving, and I
(15:40):
have heard that her next book isreally going to dive deep into
the healing process, and so I'mreally excited about that.
But I think there's a recurringtheme here in how a big part of
that growth for her, thatrebuilding, was about exchanging
the certainty that was promisedin this very fundamentalist
(16:03):
religious context and insteadembracing mystery, so going from
that immediate comfort ofcertainty to embracing the
uncertainty of mystery.
Rebecca, you've got some reallygood quotes here where she's
talking about this process.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, when she was talking about grief, she
wrote in the loneliness Irealized I grieved the idealized
dream and I was like, ah crap.
And isn't that the truth of somany things, be it relationships
, be it finding out that you aremerely a part of a high demand
(16:44):
religion that is trying tocontrol your moves?
Whatever the situation is,oftentimes I think we're
promised this dream that we buyinto, that we're like, yeah,
that is what I want.
And the dream, I think, is whatsells us, or the promise of the
dream is what sells us.
(17:04):
And then realizing that it'snot going to happen is a whole
other level.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Isn't this similar to , like the grief when a loved
one dies, say a loved one thatyou've maybe had a difficult
relationship with or norelationship with when they pass
?
It's not so much about grievinga meaningful relationship
that's gone.
It's about grieving the factthat that relationship never
(17:30):
existed and what could have orshould have been Right.
And I think part of what she'stalking about there, too, is
realizing that what she wascommitted to was a mirage.
It wasn't that she was grievingthe loss of living as a
fundamentalist, she was grievingthe loss of what she'd been
(17:51):
promised.
And I think one reason that it'sreally important for onlookers,
bystanders to be aware of thisis that it's easy to think well,
you just got out of a badsituation.
You should just be so happythat you're in a better
situation now.
Aren't you so happy that nowyou can live like me instead of
(18:13):
that weird way?
And the reality is no, no,there's a loss of a dream, not
just the loss of what wasfamiliar, but the loss of a
dream, and I think being awareof the kind of the messiness of
that can really help you be abetter friend and support during
that time.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And be very careful as an onlooker not to invite
them over to your promise of adream, which I think is what
oftentimes happens with thisinvest and invite note.
And I think people leaving arevery vulnerable to that type of
sell.
So we just trade our dreams.
(18:52):
It's like okay, so thisobviously isn't working, but
you're promising over here, itlooks familiar, it looks
comfortable, and you make theswitch only to realize that, oh,
it's another mirage.
Switch only to realize that, oh, it's another mirage.
And I think it's a goodreminder for both people who are
disillusioned with wherethey're at and for people who
(19:14):
want to quote invest in otherpeople.
Be careful about the promise wegive.
She also talks a lot about thetrees and the peace they gave
her, and I think one of the mostwonderful things about nature,
if you ignore the insectsinvolved, is that nature doesn't
(19:35):
demand anything from you.
You can go out to the trees andthey just are there.
They don't ask that you arequiet, they don't ask that you
speak, they don't ask that youstay, they don't ask that you
are quiet, they don't ask thatyou speak, they don't ask that
you stay, they don't ask thatyou leave, they just allow you
to be.
And, on a personal note, I'vealways found it fascinating that
(19:55):
if you watch trees in a storm,they don't stand there solidly,
they bend, they sway, they move,they dance.
And I think about that when wewant to have this solid
foundation and this firm beliefand this firm faith, and it's
(20:16):
like even nature moves, evennature sways, and I think we're
supposed to as well.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Are you saying that the only thing that is rigid in
nature is dead?
Damn it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, why don't you take like five sentences and
just put it into three words?
Well, it was my turn.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
It was my turn.
Usually you're doing that forme, so it's my turn to do that.
No, I couldn't agree more.
And not to be a metaphor todeath.
But I also love the metaphor ofbalance, like when you're
balancing on one foot, like yogais tree pose, as you balance on
one foot, when you do that, yourealize, oh, you are not
(20:57):
holding still, like the musclesand the bones in your feet are
moving right To adjust to keepyou upright.
And like that movement, howeversubtle, is part of what keeps
you balanced and keeps youupright and that's what keeps
the trees.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
That flexibility is what keeps trees living
Absolutely fascinating that oneof her first relationships was
with CG, who really did allowfor mystery and was very drawn
to nature as well.
(21:34):
And I think it's so fascinatingbecause that's something, as I
deconstructed, that wassomething that I really needed a
lot of space for as well, andthe people in my life who lacked
space for that were some of thefirst relationships that I
realized weren't going to last.
(21:54):
And I think, as you deconstructand as you realize that so much
of what you were building yourlife after was possibly a mirage
or false promises or whateverit was, I think at some level
you have to really really diginto that mystery, into the
curiosity of life, and it'sdifficult to realize that maybe
(22:18):
life isn't quite as cut anddried as we're hoping it would
be, or even we were told itwould be Right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
She also talks about extending this understanding to
her children.
She says, as my childrenexplored and expressed, the
contrast of how I'd shrunken, myworld in adolescence
intensified.
It turned out teenagers don'tgo right or wrong.
As they'd been taught over thepulpit right Sometimes they went
left up out over under intoLife was so much bigger than
(22:47):
what I was taught at church.
I can so identify with thisbecause I see similar patterns
in my own children and I'm in aparenting group, for I'm in lots
of parenting groups, I think itwas one that had to do with
neurodivergence and behaviorissues and that kind of thing,
(23:10):
and there were a lot of postsfrom folks who are really in the
trenches with young kids and itreminded me that six years ago
my son was six and I was goingwhat is this kid going to be
like when he's 12?
And I was really, reallyfearful and I was thinking about
well, now he is 12.
And how, how I wish I could goback and give my younger self
(23:34):
some reassurance that it's goingto be okay.
But then as I was, as I wastalking about this, I thought
about it too that my definitionof successful, of a successful
relationship or what it means tobe doing well, has changed.
Like there would have been atime that my kid getting in
trouble at school would havereflected really poorly on me as
a parent, that it would haveindicated that I'm not doing
(23:57):
well as a parent.
Where now, if a kid gets introuble at school?
Well, yeah, kids do immature,ill-advised things and then we
work with them and help themclean up, learn how to take
accountability and how to cleanit up, and I think that's maybe
the kind of thing that Tia'stalking about here.
It's not just about giving kidsmore latitude to explore, but
(24:21):
also redefining what it means tobe doing well in life, and I
think that's not only takingpressure off the kids, but it
also takes pressure off of us.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
I think it also helps me see my past self with a
little bit more grace, because Iwas really young when I started
worrying about my sin.
And if I got something wrong.
It wasn't a part of learningand growing, it was I had failed
.
I had failed God, and it wasenough to send you to hell.
And it was enough to send me tohell.
(24:54):
Yeah, and I think the processof parenting has allowed me to
reparent myself in ways I neverexpected.
And I see things happening andI'm like, oh, it's not about sin
, it's simply about learning,it's simply about navigating
(25:14):
life, it's simply learning aboutyourself and, of course, we
want our kids to do well and notto get into trouble and not
want them to flourish Right,right, but it comes down to it
being about connection, notcontrol 100%.
(25:35):
So the next point brings usback to this idea of maybe the
internet isn't as evil assometimes we're told it is.
She wrote I didn't realize therewas an entire community of
others traumatized by the church, and she found herself in
(25:57):
online spaces where there werecommunities of people who were
kind of working through andprocessing some of this
religious abuse.
And I think this is so veryimportant, because when you're
in an isolated community, we'retaught not to speak up, you're
taught to follow the rules,you're taught to understand how
(26:20):
important the hierarchy is, andso you kind of toe the line and
then, when you get into spaceswhere it is okay to speak up and
you can start sharing yourstory, it's like, oh wait,
there's other people who haveexperienced the same thing.
I'm not weird, maybe.
Maybe I'm actually kind ofnormal and somehow, in that, you
(26:42):
learn to develop and even trustyour voice.
And I think this is soimportant, because it's so easy
for us to doubt ourselves and tothink we're strange, to think
we're weird, and we probably areto a point.
But there are other people whoidentify with your experiences
(27:08):
and if you're sensing or feelingsomething, it is valid and
trust your voice, even if youvoice it only to yourself or one
other person, still trust yourvoice in that process, because
somewhere out there there is anentire community of people who
are like yeah, I hear you, I getthat, and there's someone
(27:31):
waiting to hear your story.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Just because you don't have that at the moment
doesn't mean it's not out there,right?
You just haven't found it yet.
Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And I wonder if that's not maybe where the
strength of these isolatedcommunities lies.
Yeah, absolutely.
Something else Tia talked aboutas she was healing and working
through that whole process wasand again I quote what did it
mean to hold two opposing truthsat the same time?
(28:01):
And for me, I found this to beso important in rebuilding and
honestly, I think so much oflife is this it's holding two
opposing truths.
Am I sad my kids went back tocollege?
Yeah, but am I happy I don'thave to cook so much?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, they're both so true.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Right, and so much of life is.
We can be absolutely gratefulfor something, but we can also
be sad about the same thing.
I can be so dang grateful thatI am in college, but I can also
be so sad that I'm as old as Iam and finally experiencing it.
Both truths are valid.
(28:42):
Experiencing it, both truthsare valid.
And I think this idea offocusing only on the positive
without acknowledging the griefor the sadness doesn't serve us
well.
And by holding those opposingtruths, I think it gives us
space to have grace and love forformer selves, which I think is
(29:04):
really difficult to do,especially when you're in that
grieving stage Because you thinkof all the things you could
have done differently, youshould have done differently,
the red flags you absolutelyblew through because you didn't
know.
And again, in that allows us tohave love, but it allows us to
grieve and I think in that youlearn to hold those opposing
(29:26):
truths.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
But I also think it allows us to be kinder humans,
because it's easy, in a rigidbelief system, to assume there's
only one truth, to say there'sonly one thing that's true
Either that action was right orit was wrong.
In this scenario, one of thesepeople is right and the other
(29:47):
person is wrong.
And what if we can expand ourminds enough to hold two of
those opposing truths?
Someone was doing the best theycould and also their actions
were hurtful.
I was hurt by something doesn'tmean that the other person was
necessarily acting on behalf ofthe devil.
(30:08):
It could be they were misguided.
It could be a million and onedifferent things.
Yes, and in that way it's orourselves, yes, when you talk
about flying through those redflags, realizing, like you know
what, instead of going, was thatrelationship a mistake or not?
Like either it was the rightthing or it was a mistake, one
(30:30):
or the other.
It's so limiting.
Maybe there were red flags, butmaybe there were valuable
things that came through that.
And I've said this before.
But I think it's so easy for usto look back at past mistakes
and imagine that if we had takenthe other route, it would have
been perfect.
(30:50):
And the reality is we mighthave just ended up with a bigger
mess if we'd gone a differentdirection.
Holding those two opposingtruths is so powerful and life
affirming Right, yeah, yeah.
And it allows us to live withthat mystery and that
uncertainty yeah, absolutelyyeah.
And it allows us to live withthat mystery and that
uncertainty yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
So, in thinking about the rolethat bystanders, compassionate
(31:16):
onlookers, can play insomebody's transition out of a
high demand group, we've got alist of a few things here that
kind of tie in with what we'vebeen talking about, but maybe
make them a little bit moreconcrete and specific.
The first one here is one thatRebecca touched on a little bit
ago about the importance ofrespecting the dignity, the
privacy and the autonomy of theperson.
(31:37):
Even if this is a person whohas come out of a group where
maybe they've not been able toexperience all the developmental
, the typical developmentalstages of other people their
same age in the mainstream, theyare still intelligent human
beings for whom dignity, privacyand autonomy are just as
(32:03):
important as someone who hasn'thad those experiences, I think
this is so incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I've had the opportunity and the fortune of
working with some immigrants andI think it is so easy when
someone comes from anotherculture to think they're dumb or
they don't understand thinkthey're dumb, or they don't
understand, or it be.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I think we as Americans tend to see someone
with an accent as being lessintelligent, when in most of the
rest of the world, having anaccent means you can speak
multiple languages, and that'ssomething to admire that you're
smart.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,but in the US it's seen as like
oh, you're not smart enough tospeak good English, which is all
(32:51):
it does is make us look inbred.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Right, right, and I have seen people witness to
someone from a completedifferent culture and world and
they've never asked about theirfaith practices.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
They just make assumptions.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
But then I also realized howmuch those of us who grew up in
a high demand religion are kindof like an immigrant, like a lot
of those things they'relearning, are a lot the same.
All of a sudden, one day I sawmyself in the immigrant.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
That's solidarity, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and I think that'swhere real connection is, when
we can see where our commoninterests lie and where we can
stand together.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
And how much we're the same.
Yes, yes.
In fact, they're probablybraver than I am, Not probably
they are.
They're fighting things I nevereven thought about.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And to go back to what we weresaying just a second ago, isn't
it about holding what is similarand what is dissimilar at the
same time we're not hung up onit being one or the other but
that we can integrate both ofthose and still respect their
dignity and autonomy as a human?
I think another point relatedto this maybe growing out of
(34:22):
this is recognizing that healingisn't linear and that leaving
doesn't mean a person instantlybecomes your regulation white
bread, middle class American,and I think this is again.
This is kind of one of thepitfalls that come from having
from growing up in a countrythat is so large that many of us
(34:44):
have especially grew up in theMidwest or away from the coast,
really have grown up in placeswhere we're used to people who
look pretty much like ourselves,and so we have a hard time
imagining a normal that doesn'tlook like our lived reality.
And I've run into this as well,and I've often seen it not so
(35:08):
much in person but more inonline spaces, and I'm talking
here kind of the fundy, snarkworld where maybe somebody is
moving out of a very restrictiveway of living and the
expectations of the onlookersseem to be that now they flipped
a switch and now they're goingto see everything from the
(35:31):
perspective of someone who grewup with the standard white bread
, middle class Americanexperience and so realizing that
again holding two things atonce, two truths that when we
leave a situation, when we gothrough a major transition or a
(35:52):
major crisis, we still carry theimpact of what happened to us
before that crisis and that willalways still be part of who we
are.
And also we can integrate, wecan learn new things, but it's
going to be messy, it's going tobe nonlinear and it might not
happen at the same rate that anonlooker would expect it to the
(36:17):
point.
Here is a plea to be patientwith the messiness of it and if
it doesn't make sense to you,that's okay, because it probably
totally doesn't make sense tothe person going through it
either.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Absolutely.
And I think another importantpart to remember here is it's
not going to be linear, also inthe sense of emotions.
I remember talking to atherapist and I was angry.
I was like so, and I was angry.
I was like so freaking angry.
And he looked at me and he'slike isn't it exhausting being
(36:57):
that angry?
And I was like, screw you, thatis the most unhelpful thing I
have ever heard.
I remember just sitting thereand being like, really that's
all you got.
Remember just sitting there andbeing like really that's all
you got.
That's all you got.
What would have been helpful isif he would have asked some
questions, because eventually Ifigured out that underneath all
that anger was a motherlode ofgrief.
But I also realized that inthat motion, that anger was
(37:20):
literally what was getting meout of bed.
That anger was literally whatwas getting me out the door.
So don't be too shocked whenthere is anger, because there
will be anger.
I think what people aren'tactually prepared for then is
the grief that comes behind that, because the grief is much more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It is much more gutting.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's much more gutting.
The same people who are shockedor Disapproving Disapproving of
the anger are not willing tosit through grief either.
And I'm telling you, grief isgoing to happen and the grief.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I wasn't prepared for the grief and I wish that
therapist would have prepared mefor that for those onlookers,
(38:21):
those bystanders, to be awarethat those material needs might
be there too and it can vary somuch, because sometimes being in
a high control group is verymuch related to your income and
where you live and that kind ofthing, and then for others not
so much and so that's not anissue.
But I think being aware that itcould be is really important.
(38:43):
And then also connecting themto community resources,
connecting them to your socialor professional networks, or at
least helping them get connectedto relevant social and
professional networks, is sohuge.
One of those majorcharacteristics of being in a
(39:03):
high demand group is that youaren't connected to community
resources.
The social and professionalnetworks you had before may be
severed.
For example, when I left theAmish Mennonite tradition and
among other things, trying toget a job and all that, it never
occurred to me.
That there might be anorganization out there that has
donated clothing, donatedprofessional clothing for women
(39:26):
in my situation Never occurredto me, and I think there is one
in Oklahoma City somewhere.
I don't know if it was there atthe time.
Okay.
So yeah, they're out there forsure.
I mean, I worked at one, justnot in Oklahoma City.
Just the thing of makingfriends, the thing of developing
those professional networks,helping make those connections,
(39:47):
is so incredibly valuable.
I just can't state it enough,like, maybe it's as simple as an
introduction, maybe it's assimple as inviting them to a
backyard barbecue where they'regoing to be other people there
that they might connect with.
I guess another way of what I'msaying is, if you don't have
the bandwidth to take them underyour wing and make them your
(40:08):
bonus kid which.
I think most of us are therehelping, offering to make those
social and professional networkconnections can be such a
relatively small thing for you,that is a huge thing for them.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
So let me try putting it this way I have been to
funerals where literally theonly people that were at the
funeral were people from thehigh controlled, yes.
So let's think about it thisway when you are in a high
demand religious group,high-demand religious group,
(40:48):
typically that is your world,that is your education, that is
your employment, that is oftenwhat you know.
I have been to funerals ofsomeone who was inside the group
and lived a long life, but theonly person at that funeral were
people from their church group.
(41:09):
So it is possible to live in ahigh demand religion with almost
no outside connections notoutside or without meaningful
outside connections withoutmeaningful outside connections.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Right yeah, so if a person can live a long life and
be 80 when they pass, and a longmeaningful life.
We're not talking about someonewho's a recluse, but someone
who yeah who's active, butwithin the confines of their
group.
Yeah, within the confines oftheir group.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, so if someone can live a long, meaningful life
, but the only people who showup at their funeral is people
from within that group, imaginehow difficult it is when you
have a 20-year-old who decidesto leave the group Right.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Absolutely.
That's such a great way to putit.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So keep that in mind.
Keep that in mind Absolutely.
(42:22):
That's such a networks to findfriendships.
And I think that that might bepart of the reason we so easily
go from one high controlledgroup to the next, because it
holds everything we're lookingfor.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And you know, in our experience, we had social
security numbers, we had socialsecurity numbers, we had
driver's license.
Trying to do this without thosethings which there are plenty
who do Exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Oh, my goodness, that's not only difficult but
then expensive, and involvesattorney's fees and one
Emotional energy that many justdo not have.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yes, yes, exactly.
And yet to move forward theyhave to.
No wonder, no wonder returningto a high control group seems
like the most logical thing todo.
And that leads us to the lastpoint on my list encourage and
facilitate rest.
So one of my major annoyances isall the directives to busy
(43:28):
mothers to take time for selfcare.
It makes me want to punchsomebody in the face because I'm
like, well, you come take careof my responsibilities then, so
I can go self care.
Because there's often this kindof a judgment like, well,
you're not making time for selfcare, you've just got to make
time for yourself.
And it's like judgment likewell, you're not making time for
self-care, you've just got tomake time for yourself.
And it's like, well, then youcome make dinner.
(43:48):
Anyway, that's my personalbaggage, okay.
So what I'm saying is, if wehave someone coming through a
really difficult crisis ortransition like this and they
might be reestablishing almostevery part of their life, from
where they live to where theywork and all that and their
friend circles, all that, thatdoes not leave much time for
(44:09):
rest, and rest is exactly whatyou need at a time like that.
You need relaxation, your bodyneeds a place of safety to rest
and repair.
So if you, as an onlooker, ifthere's anything you can do to
facilitate it, please do,whether it's saying hey, come
swim in my pool whenever youneed an afternoon, whatever it
(44:32):
might be.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Join us for Christmas dinner, join us for a barbecue,
join us for back to schoolshopping.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yes, yes, or we're just having pizza tonight.
But if you want to come on over, something that takes some of
the weight that's hanging onthem off, even if it's for a few
minutes, can be so meaningful.
And I think it's easy tooverlook, because when you are
rebuilding man, that takesadditional energy.
But when you have come througha crisis, that takes additional
(45:01):
energy.
But when you have come througha crisis, you're already running
on empty, probably, and thentrying to do that, and I think
that's one of the reasons whythese chronic conditions are so
common for people in thissituation, because it's the
nervous system, the body'ssaying enough, enough, enough.
(45:21):
Our world is not set up forpeople to have rest and times
like these, our society is notset up for that, and that's a
whole other issue.
So to what extent we can stepin there is huge.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I'm so glad you talked about the need for rest
and how exhausting it is,because I think that gets so
overlooked and I think sometimesthe expectations we place on
people when they're making thosechanges are unrealistic and I
am so glad you talked to that.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
So, coming up next we're going to talk about our
takeaways, kind of our reactionsto when we were reading
interactions to when we werereading Right, I was struck by
how much I could identify withher inner life, even though our
day-to-day experiences were sodifferent, our life trajectories
(46:15):
were so different, and I'm sureI'm not alone in that either.
I think that's really one ofthe strengths of the book is
that she is putting words toideas and thoughts and fears
that many of us have had andhaven't had language for.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Right, but wasn't it shocking to you she didn't have
any Anabaptist background?
No, like I kept thinking shecould totally have had an
Anabaptist background with someof the things she was talking
about.
And I was so curious about that, Like how is that even possible
?
And then I started recognizinghow so many of the names and
(46:55):
influences were actually thesame people.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Are you saying that maybe Anabaptists aren't as
unique as we think we are?
I worry, so many of the namesand the influences she mentions
were familiar.
I mean, maybe they were more orless influential in our lives,
but still those ideas were verypresent.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
But I was familiar with all the names, like I
recognized all the names shementioned.
She had a complete list ofpeople who have quote fallen and
I recognized all of them.
She mentioned Gary Ezzo, sothey're the ones who would have
written Babywise.
(47:40):
Yeah, josh Harris, I KissedDating Goodbye.
Bill Gothard, the Duggars, dougPhillips, paige Patterson.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
And then you had other names that you thought of
too, that you could add to thelist.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Right, right.
I mean we have Hybels, we haveJohn Howard Yoder, who was an
Anabaptist, anabaptist, jerryFalwell Jr.
I mean the list continues.
But even more than that, shewas influenced by John Piper,
john MacArthur, a lot of theseRC Sproul, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes
(48:18):
, yes, yes.
And I was kind of surprised howmuch the Calvinist faith has
influenced the Anabaptists.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Right, because growing up, my memory is that we
were definitely not Calvinist.
Oh, we would be horrified to beProudly not Calvinist.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, right, right, but it's interesting to me here
in Holmes County 10 years agothere were a lot of beachy
Beninite men especially who weredeep into Driscoll and his
teachings.
I'm sure I mean we even had agroup who called themselves the
(49:02):
Acts 29 Church, which wastotally off of Driscoll.
Wow, and it just gives me a lotof pause.
It gives me a lot of pause whenwe have Anabaptists who are
absolutely not Calvinists.
And then I also have friendswho are in the Calvinist church
who think the Anabaptists arehorrible and I'm like do you
(49:24):
guys not see how closely we'rerelated?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well, let me ask so, like those folks in, say, holmes
County who have this Anabaptistbackground but are taken by,
entranced by Mark Driscoll, whatare the chances that it's not
so much the Calvinism they'reinterested in as it is the
misogyny they admire?
(49:47):
Ouch, I can say that because Idon't know them.
It's just a question.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
So what I'm going to suggest is this Typically, a lot
of these leaders tend to bemore uneducated and the
Calvinist teaching show up witha lot more scholarly terms and
it sounds familiar and I thinkit's easy to read and feel like
(50:17):
you have more education than thepeople you're leading.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Because you've got something new to share.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
You have something new, but you have something.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Something new that you can share with a lot of
confidence.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, yeah, because the whole Calvinist thing is
hugely black and white.
This is it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
I think we need to just be really aware, is it that
?
Speaker 2 (50:45):
not only I think, in the backgrounds we come from,
it's easy to think that the onlyway to evaluate something is by
how well it aligns with theWord of God.
Well, of course, the reality ispeople make the Word of God
align with kind of whatever theywant right.
So the Word of God has withkind of whatever they want right
.
So the word of God has a lot ofthings to say.
(51:06):
So another way to evaluateideas is what is their effect?
What comes out of?
What is the fruit?
What is the fruit of Driscoll'steaching, and is that the kind
of person we want to be?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
The other thing I couldn't help but notice was in
the book.
Tia was the one in therelationship who was frustrated.
She was the one trying tofigure out how to create changes
for her family.
She was trying to figure outhow to be the good wife.
She was the one who wassearching for therapy.
(51:42):
And I had to think about howoften we see that pattern.
Oftentimes it is the female whois the first in therapy, who
even assumes that it's her faultand assumes that if she would
somehow do the right thing, herfamily would be healthier, her
marriage would be better.
(52:03):
And this isn't reflected in thebook so much, but I'm going to
take it one step further.
I often see females who finallyget into therapy.
They assume that it's theirfault, they assume that they
need to be making changes andsomewhere along the line they
figure out oh, there's thisthing called boundaries.
(52:24):
Somewhere along the line theyfigure out oh, there's this
thing called boundaries.
What's that?
They learn to trust their voice.
And oftentimes what happens is,all of a sudden, her partner
gets nervous and decides it'stime for marriage or couples
counseling, when the partner, infact, has done no work of their
own.
And let me just say you'reallowed to be offended about
(52:47):
that if that happens to you, andyou're also allowed to say no,
I have done some work and Iwould like to create a space for
you to also do your work.
And how about if you do some ofyour work and then we think
about couples or marriagetherapy?
This idea that somehow thefemale needs to do the emotional
(53:12):
labor in the marriage and evenin the therapist's office needs
to be challenged.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Right, and I think we've got an upcoming podcast on
that.
Bare Marriage had some amazingmemes that you shared with me
and, I think, encourage you.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
If you're feeling any of this, know there's validity
there and, yes, this isabsolutely something we'll talk
about more.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
So it's really interesting to think about how
we were raised in Anabaptistgroups that I thought cared
about the tradition.
I mean we would have said thatthose general conference
Mennonites were Mennonite nameonly.
We were the real ones becausewe were holding the traditional
(54:13):
line.
But upon studying and learningabout what early Anabaptists
actually believed and taught, itwas a surprise to realize no
wait, those things that we thinkare so important as the
traditional Anabaptists wereactually not that big a deal to
the early Anabaptists.
(54:34):
And I'm thinking of things likeadult baptism, so baptism on
the confession of faith ratherthan as an infant because of
their parents' choice, voluntarychurch membership, separation,
church estate, pacifism,non-resistance, especially as it
relates to politicalaffiliation, that kind of thing.
(54:58):
Our friend, rebecca Mui, wrote aMedium post about this whole
dynamic.
Rebecca was not born and raisedMennonite but came to
Anabaptist beliefs as a youngadult and she has an
impressively nuanced view of theculture and dynamics within it.
(55:19):
She's also a PhD student andstudies these kinds of things,
spends a lot of time thinkingabout these kinds of things.
So we're going to link her postin the show notes and if anyone
else is interested in thisdichotomy between what it means
to be traditional or not andtraditional Anabaptist or not.
I think you would find her postvery interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
So, in short, what passes as Anabaptist theology
today, I think, has so muchunacknowledged Calvinist and
fundamental Baptist influenceand you'll see it like in the
emphasis on control hierarchyand like force group conformity
that are really in directopposition to historical
(56:03):
Anabaptist beliefs.
Is it fair to say that thetradition that some of the
Anabaptist churches in our pasthave clung to would be closer to
the Amish tradition and less tothe actual Anabaptist tradition
(56:25):
?
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well, I think that's what I'm saying.
I think that's what I'm saying,and there are other ways that
could be said, but I think thatis what I'm saying, and I think
it's.
Many who aren't as familiarwould assume that the Amish are
the originals and everybody elsewho has moderated has peeled
off from them.
(56:46):
But actually it's not that waynecessarily.
So, yes, I think that isexactly what I'm saying.
It's complicated and I'm justinviting people into the
complication.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
Not that I have anything really clever or
insightful to say about it, justthat it's a complication that I
think is worth exploringinsightful to say about it just
that it's a complication that Ithink is worth exploring Right,
and I for sure don't mean it asa criticism, because I am quite
defensive of my Amish friendsand relatives and there are
(57:18):
parts of the Anabaptist faiththat I find myself really
circling around to and embracing.
So I don't mean any of thisconversation as a criticism, but
rather as asking us to be a bitmore critical, maybe, about
what we allow to influence us.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, or maybe even aware of what is influencing us,
because I think a lot of well.
I mean, just think of anysermon that we heard.
How many times were sourcesreferenced?
How many times are sources notreferenced, who knows?
And it's not that the rules ofplagiarism apply to preaching in
(58:05):
the same way they do inscholarly writing, but I think A
it's only natural when ideasare woven in and through right,
that's only normal.
What's interesting is when wethink we have this pure belief
and maybe, on closer observation, we find out we've been
(58:27):
influenced by other voices aswell, and I think it just gives
us a more accurate understandingof our world.
Maybe it gives us a moreaccurate sense of just how
special we are, or not.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Yeah, because I think we like to think we're one in a
million or we're God's chosenpeople or you know whatever,
when maybe we're not quite asspecial as we think we are, and
to take it just one step morefurther.
So stick with me here.
We'd like to talk about thedanger of radical Islam, or
(59:06):
Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons andall their wives I mean, we've
all heard this but something wedon't talk about is the danger
of radical Christians, and Ithink we need to think about
that too.
Fundamentalism isfundamentalism.
It doesn't really matter whatfaith practice you're talking
(59:29):
about, what ideology you'retalking about.
It's something we need to beaware of, and I'm going to
suggest, and maybe even argue,that we should no more want a
Christian nation than we wouldwant a Catholic, an Islamic, a
Mormon fill in the blank nation,because freedom of religion is
(59:53):
not freedom of religion unlessit's freedom of religion for
everyone involved.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
That's right.
Oh, and that is another one ofthose Core Anabaptist teachings.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Guess what?
Look at me circling around.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
That seems to have been abandoned.
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely so.
I so agree with this, and Iremember the day, a long time
ago, sitting in traffic andtalking with someone about I
think we're talking aboutdifferent political systems and
kind of doing this kind ofbacking up and saying, well, you
know which political systemshave the best outcomes and which
(01:00:29):
and it hit me that demands forideological purity result in
tyranny, regardless of what thesystem is, and I think that's
what all these kinds of radicalgroups have in common, or
fundamentalisms have in commonit is a rigidity and a demand
(01:00:50):
for ideological purity thatbecomes tyrannical, and that is
the problem.
Really good job breaking someof those threads down is
Straight White American Jesuspodcast.
They talk about a lot ofcurrent events, they talk about
(01:01:11):
the presence of Christiannationalism and you know kind of
some of those streams ofthought within it.
Both of the podcast hosts haveat one time been fundamentalist
preachers and now they are nolonger so they speak as insiders
.
They're also academics and theyhave a very well-informed view
on their topic, and they alsohave a great sense of humor lots
(01:01:34):
of dad jokes For anyoneconcerned about radical
Christianity and the impact itcan have on the US Straight
White American Jesus is anawesome podcast for thinking
about those things.
So I think, in summing this up,we've spent most of the podcast
talking about relevant pointsfor bystanders, for folks who
(01:01:55):
are standing alongside those whoare making these difficult
transitions.
I think for those who havelived in an insular religious
environment, I think for thosewho have lived in an insular
religious environment, what thebook offers is a way to think
about and a way to recognizesome of the most pernicious mind
games and social traps thatkeep unhappy, dissatisfied
(01:02:19):
people from making the changesthey need to make so that they
can live life on their own terms, from making the changes they
need to make so that they canlive life on their own terms.
And so for anyone who feelsstuck in a place like that, a
place where they feel tornbetween the demands that are
placed on them and who they knowthemselves to be, I think this
book can offer a lot of hope anda lot of ways of imagining how
(01:02:42):
to break free.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Absolutely, and I think this book is such a prime
example of the way that midlifepivots are just never easy and
each one has its own unique setsof challenges and rewards, and
I so appreciate the way TiaLovings works us through that
(01:03:04):
process.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
With a sense of humor .
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
On top of humor.
Yeah Right, she makes us laughand cry.
Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Exactly, exactly, it's awesome.
Yeah, in the spirit of talkingabout midlife pivots, in an
upcoming episode we're going todo a deep dive into Rebecca's
experiences of starting collegeafter 40 and what that's like.
You know what's what yourday-to-day experiences have been
like.
So, for our listeners, ifthere's something you are
(01:03:30):
curious about the college lifeand this can be anything from
you know how to apply to thingsrelated to how do you deal with
this.
Did you ever run into this kindof situation?
Whatever's on your mind, textus a question that you'd like us
to talk about with Rebecca, andjust know that we want this
podcast to be a place where it'ssafe to ask the kind of
(01:03:51):
questions that Google can answer, and we can promise you you're
probably not the only one withthat question, and others will
be really grateful that youasked it, so please get in touch
also in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
We're tackling an excellent question asked by one
of our very insightful listenersabout this idea of going to
college as a creationist andencountering the teachings of
evolution in a public settingfor maybe the first time.
What do you do when you're in aclassroom and everyone's
(01:04:25):
talking about evolution andthere's no one snickering but
you?
How, in that, do we stay trueto ourselves when we are
confronted by new information?
Is this something you'veexperienced?
We would be so delighted tohear from you, so send us a text
and tell us all about it, andwe will see you next time.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
(01:05:00):
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
This is Rebecca and this is Naomi.
We're 40-something moms andfirst cousins who know what it's
like to veer off the pathassigned to us.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college
and career, as we questioned ourfaith traditions while
exploring new identities andways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Without any maps for either of us to follow.
We've had to figure things outas we go and appreciate that
detours and dead ends areessential to the path.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want
to share with fellow travelers.
We want to talk about thequestions we didn't know who to
ask and the options we didn'tknow we had.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking
things up, we are here to cheeryou on and assure you that the
best is yet to come.
Welcome to Uncovered LifeBeyond.
Hello everyone, welcome back toUncovered Life Beyond.
(01:07):
This is Naomi and this isRebecca, so today we're
continuing the conversationabout Tia Leving's book A
Well-Trained Wife, very excitedto see it hit the New York Times
bestseller list.
Not at all a surprise, but veryexciting nonetheless.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I am so proud of her.
I just think it is fabulousthat she is getting this type of
attention and this type ofrecognition.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right and I think the timing is so important and I
think her book has a messagethat so many people in the
mainstream need to hear.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, I think that we forget how many people haven't
made connections about some ofthe things she's talking about,
and I'm glad the message isgetting out there, right,
absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
But before we get back to all of that, first a
warm welcome to all the newfolks around here.
We love seeing your responsesand we're just so glad you're
here and hope to hear more fromyou.
We don't want this to just be aone-way conversation, with us
talking at you, but we want tohear back from you, so we look
(02:26):
forward to getting to know youas well.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I'll let you in on a little secret.
The truth is, naomi and I arenot the smartest people involved
here.
Conversations you all bring upand the insights you have
absolutely energize us but alsoteach us new thoughts and new
angles of looking at it, and ourpodcast is absolutely made
(02:54):
better because of you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
So, so true, Absolutely.
Now, if someone is new here andwondering who are we, why do we
have a podcast?
Well, first of all, who doesn'thave a podcast these days?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
But we wanted to be as cool as everybody else.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
But the other reason is something that we go into in
some recent posts that each ofus wrote for Saloma Furlong's
blog, and we'll link those inthe show notes, and these were
written versions of the talksthat we gave at the symposium
(03:37):
the Amish Scholar Symposium thatwas held earlier this summer.
So if you're curious, check outthose links and they'll tell
you a little bit about ourbackground, where we grew up and
how we came to be doing thepodcast.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
So in the last episode we talked about the
power of outsiders for breakingthe spell that we often find in
high control groups.
Outsiders absolutely affectedthe way Tia Lovings was able to
make changes and I think formany of us who left, we would
(04:13):
say that that was true.
But outsiders also play a hugerole in helping people rebuild
afterwards and I thinkoftentimes these outsiders might
be even unaware of what they'redoing and in the ways that
they're helping, but it's simplypeople who are being kind Right
(04:35):
.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I think this is even more likely to be the case since
the book is getting the widecirculation that it is, so I
hope that translates to ourlisteners as well, because this
is relevant for people from allwalks of life, not just from a
high control group Right.
(04:57):
What I was thinking about inrelation to this was the
personal experience that Imentioned in our last episode
which, by the way, if youhaven't heard that, everything
we're going to say here is goingto make a lot more sense if you
go back and listen to thatfirst.
But in that episode I mentionedwhen I left a high control
(05:19):
group, as in my early 20s and Isaid that after we had figured
some things out and seen adifferent perspective that we
were out in a few days.
The reason we were able to beout in a few days was because of
one of these compassionatebystanders.
I had a colleague at work.
(05:40):
She was just a few years olderthan me.
She had an SUV, so she let meswitch cars with her one night
so that I could take her SUVhome, so we could pack up our
things and move.
She also let us come stay myfriend and I come stay at her
house for about a week or sountil we were able to find our
(06:03):
own place.
She was just the sweetest,kindest person and I am forever
grateful to her for the rolethat she played in that.
Now, it's really not relevantto the story, except that it
does kind of connect to the bookwe're talking about here.
So Tandy, this friend, was amember at a huge Southern
(06:28):
Baptist church so probably a lotlike the one that Tia Leving's
family went to Council RoadBaptist Church in Bethany,
oklahoma if anybody fromOklahoma City area is listening
and she invited me to come tochurch with her and I went once
and I was in such a tender placethat kind of everything was
(06:52):
triggering for me at that point.
I worked with a number ofpeople from this church and
everybody I knew from thatchurch was just the nicest,
kindest, friendliest person.
But then in going to church Ijust like everything that was
coming over the pulpit felt likea commercial, felt like a
here's why you need to join thischurch, because we're so
(07:14):
awesome and I'm sure they'reawesome, like that's, you know.
But where I was I was open forpeople to hang out with.
I didn't want to join a Baptistchurch, I didn't really want to
join any church, but I wantedpeople to hang out with and I
think a lot of us could identifywith this when you've grown up
in a church setting where that'sthe primary social context that
(07:36):
you know, that's where you knowthat's how, that's where you
know how to socialize.
I had someone say to me well,why don't you go out to a bar to
make friends?
I'm like I don't know what todo in a bar.
So that was kind of what I wentto, because that's what I knew
and at the same time it wasreally triggering.
So I never went back, but ithad nothing to do with my friend
(07:56):
, who was just so lovely and Ithink another way this connects.
There were others that I metduring that time, that other
people put me in touch with, whowere people about my age, who
were involved in youth groups.
That was also a Baptist youthgroup, a lot of Baptist churches
.
In fact, as a friend says,every church in Oklahoma is
(08:20):
Southern Baptist, regardless ofwhat the sign out front says.
That's funny.
So that's funny and and that'spretty true.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
So and in Holmes County every church is Amish
Mennonite.
I don't know regardless whatthe sign says.
It's kind of true.
It's kind of true.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah so but and I remember in that case going to
Bible studies or youth groupevents and I very quickly
realized oh, I don't want to berecruited to somebody's program,
I just need friends.
And I found it a lot harder tofind friends than to find
(09:02):
somebody recruiting for aprogram.
I don't think my experience isprobably very unique in that way
and I think that's somethingthat could be helpful for
onlookers caring onlookers,compassionate onlookers to know
that people aren't looking to bea project, they want a friend.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know I think that's so important and, on that
note, a project.
They want a friend.
You know I think that's soimportant and, on that note, for
many years I was part of achurch who forever talked about
this notion of you invest so youinvest in relationships, you
invest into your neighborhood sothat you can invite.
So the slogan they always saidwas invest to invite.
(09:43):
And I want to push back on thatnotion because when you do that
, you're forever making aproject out of a person and for
people who have been in highdemand religion, they absolutely
know the minute that theybecome a project.
And there's a huge differencebetween having a friendship and
having a project.
(10:03):
And I'm guilty of this.
I have made people projects andI am so sorry.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
I am so sorry, if I ever did that to you.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I am so sorry because I know I did it to people.
And this is me saying I am sosorry because it is hurtful, it
is damaging, but I think at somelevel this is something really
easy for churches.
And we're not projects.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
We're just not projects Because when we're
projects, it's kind of acolonializing project, right
when it's like okay, we're goingto invest in you, We'll show up
when you're having a hard time,we'll be friendly to you when
we see you out in theneighborhood, we'll make those
investments, to use thatlanguage.
But it's all with an ulteriormotive of so.
(10:57):
Therefore, I can invite you tochurch and hopefully you'll
become an upstanding member inthe church and an active member
and our numbers will grow.
And so there's this agenda inthe background, and I think
often the folks in a church whoare the most conscious of that
are probably the mostwell-meaning, the kindest, most
compassionate people, and it'sunfortunate.
But even when it's a kind,compassionate, well-meaning
(11:21):
person who is looking at someonein need, someone in crisis, as
a project, you can feel that andit doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Right, right, and I'm slowly learning that one of the
hardest things to do is show upand be who I want to be and do
what I need to want to do,because that's what I want to
have done when I go to bed atnight.
Yes, end of story.
Yes, not so that I can quoteshow God's love, not so that I
(11:57):
can have stars in my crown.
Should we talk about howhorrible, horrible that notion
is?
I mean, there's songs aboutthis.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And how unbiblical it is.
If we want to go that direction, yeah, but how about just
feeding the hungry?
Speaker 1 (12:14):
because no one should be hungry.
How about taking care of thekid?
Because every kid should havesomeone who takes care of them.
How about loaning your vehicle?
Because everyone should havesomeone in their life who is a
support system.
And just doing what I dobecause that's who I want.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's one of the most rewarding things about
being involved in your communityoutside of a church or a formal
organization is it frees you todo those things because that's
who you want to be and notbecause you have this ulterior
meaning.
And I think there's a narrativeout there that says if you
(12:55):
don't, if you're not a Christian, if you don't have the threat
of hell hanging over your head,then you're going to go.
You know you're going to go,murder all the people, everybody
.
You get angry with every littlething.
You're going to go out and doall the most horrible things,
when the reality is most of uswant to be decent people.
Most of us can be decent peoplewithout the threat of hell
(13:19):
hanging over us because we'redecent people.
Most people.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right, and I want to just say one more thing, and I
know this because I worked at amega church.
When you invite people tochurch with you every Sunday and
okay, so it's been a few yearssince I've been there, but I'm
assuming this is standardpractice for mega churches
Newcomers are asked to fill outinformation cards and one of the
(13:45):
questions is who invited you?
It feels kind of good when youknow your name is going onto
that card and it feels kind ofgood when you get that
recognition and all of a sudden,you imagine the office people
being like wow, that Rebecca isinviting a lot of people.
It's an ego boost.
Is that what you're saying?
(14:05):
Well, I'm not sure that evenit's an ego boost.
I think it's validation thatyou're doing something for the
Lord, like it's this, it's thiswhich in and of itself is not a
bad thing.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
But now that outreach has become about something
other than outreach, theoutreach has become about
showing what a good person youare.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah.
And what if I am quote doingsomething for the Lord without
advertising it?
What if no one needs to know?
And I just want to challengeand push back against that idea.
Just want to challenge and pushback against that idea.
I don't think the church needsto know who invited you.
And then I found out that someof the people I was inviting
(14:55):
were in desperate need and thechurch very begrudging and very
unhelpful with those.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So just think about some of this stuff.
I'm not saying all churches dothis, I'm not saying the agenda
is the same with each and everychurch, but I do think it's
things we should watch.
And no, I do not believe thatyou should invest in anyone so
that you can invite themanywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
That's not friendship , that's a transaction.
Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah.
So we've kind of gone down thatrabbit rabbit trail.
It's relevant if tangential.
So, turning our attention backto the book, the last part of it
is about how Tia is rebuildingher life after leaving, and I
(15:40):
have heard that her next book isreally going to dive deep into
the healing process, and so I'mreally excited about that.
But I think there's a recurringtheme here in how a big part of
that growth for her, thatrebuilding, was about exchanging
the certainty that was promisedin this very fundamentalist
(16:03):
religious context and insteadembracing mystery, so going from
that immediate comfort ofcertainty to embracing the
uncertainty of mystery.
Rebecca, you've got some reallygood quotes here where she's
talking about this process.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
You know, when she was talking about grief, she
wrote in the loneliness Irealized I grieved the idealized
dream and I was like, ah crap.
And isn't that the truth of somany things, be it relationships
, be it finding out that you aremerely a part of a high demand
(16:44):
religion that is trying tocontrol your moves?
Whatever the situation is,oftentimes I think we're
promised this dream that we buyinto, that we're like, yeah,
that is what I want.
And the dream, I think, is whatsells us, or the promise of the
dream is what sells us.
(17:04):
And then realizing that it'snot going to happen is a whole
other level.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Isn't this similar to , like the grief when a loved
one dies, say a loved one thatyou've maybe had a difficult
relationship with or norelationship with when they pass
?
It's not so much about grievinga meaningful relationship
that's gone.
It's about grieving the factthat that relationship never
(17:30):
existed and what could have orshould have been Right.
And I think part of what she'stalking about there, too, is
realizing that what she wascommitted to was a mirage.
It wasn't that she was grievingthe loss of living as a
fundamentalist, she was grievingthe loss of what she'd been
(17:51):
promised.
And I think one reason that it'sreally important for onlookers,
bystanders to be aware of thisis that it's easy to think well,
you just got out of a badsituation.
You should just be so happythat you're in a better
situation now.
Aren't you so happy that nowyou can live like me instead of
(18:13):
that weird way?
And the reality is no, no,there's a loss of a dream, not
just the loss of what wasfamiliar, but the loss of a
dream, and I think being awareof the kind of the messiness of
that can really help you be abetter friend and support during
that time.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
And be very careful as an onlooker not to invite
them over to your promise of adream, which I think is what
oftentimes happens with thisinvest and invite note.
And I think people leaving arevery vulnerable to that type of
sell.
So we just trade our dreams.
(18:52):
It's like okay, so thisobviously isn't working, but
you're promising over here, itlooks familiar, it looks
comfortable, and you make theswitch only to realize that, oh,
it's another mirage.
Switch only to realize that, oh, it's another mirage.
And I think it's a goodreminder for both people who are
disillusioned with wherethey're at and for people who
(19:14):
want to quote invest in otherpeople.
Be careful about the promise wegive.
She also talks a lot about thetrees and the peace they gave
her, and I think one of the mostwonderful things about nature,
if you ignore the insectsinvolved, is that nature doesn't
(19:35):
demand anything from you.
You can go out to the trees andthey just are there.
They don't ask that you arequiet, they don't ask that you
speak, they don't ask that youstay, they don't ask that you
are quiet, they don't ask thatyou speak, they don't ask that
you stay, they don't ask thatyou leave, they just allow you
to be.
And, on a personal note, I'vealways found it fascinating that
(19:55):
if you watch trees in a storm,they don't stand there solidly,
they bend, they sway, they move,they dance.
And I think about that when wewant to have this solid
foundation and this firm beliefand this firm faith, and it's
(20:16):
like even nature moves, evennature sways, and I think we're
supposed to as well.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Are you saying that the only thing that is rigid in
nature is dead?
Damn it.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, why don't you take like five sentences and
just put it into three words?
Well, it was my turn.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
It was my turn.
Usually you're doing that forme, so it's my turn to do that.
No, I couldn't agree more.
And not to be a metaphor todeath.
But I also love the metaphor ofbalance, like when you're
balancing on one foot, like yogais tree pose, as you balance on
one foot, when you do that, yourealize, oh, you are not
(20:57):
holding still, like the musclesand the bones in your feet are
moving right To adjust to keepyou upright.
And like that movement, howeversubtle, is part of what keeps
you balanced and keeps youupright and that's what keeps
the trees.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
That flexibility is what keeps trees living
Absolutely fascinating that oneof her first relationships was
with CG, who really did allowfor mystery and was very drawn
to nature as well.
(21:34):
And I think it's so fascinatingbecause that's something, as I
deconstructed, that wassomething that I really needed a
lot of space for as well, andthe people in my life who lacked
space for that were some of thefirst relationships that I
realized weren't going to last.
(21:54):
And I think, as you deconstructand as you realize that so much
of what you were building yourlife after was possibly a mirage
or false promises or whateverit was, I think at some level
you have to really really diginto that mystery, into the
curiosity of life, and it'sdifficult to realize that maybe
(22:18):
life isn't quite as cut anddried as we're hoping it would
be, or even we were told itwould be Right.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
She also talks about extending this understanding to
her children.
She says, as my childrenexplored and expressed, the
contrast of how I'd shrunken, myworld in adolescence
intensified.
It turned out teenagers don'tgo right or wrong.
As they'd been taught over thepulpit right Sometimes they went
left up out over under intoLife was so much bigger than
(22:47):
what I was taught at church.
I can so identify with thisbecause I see similar patterns
in my own children and I'm in aparenting group, for I'm in lots
of parenting groups, I think itwas one that had to do with
neurodivergence and behaviorissues and that kind of thing,
(23:10):
and there were a lot of postsfrom folks who are really in the
trenches with young kids and itreminded me that six years ago
my son was six and I was goingwhat is this kid going to be
like when he's 12?
And I was really, reallyfearful and I was thinking about
well, now he is 12.
And how, how I wish I could goback and give my younger self
(23:34):
some reassurance that it's goingto be okay.
But then as I was, as I wastalking about this, I thought
about it too that my definitionof successful, of a successful
relationship or what it means tobe doing well, has changed.
Like there would have been atime that my kid getting in
trouble at school would havereflected really poorly on me as
a parent, that it would haveindicated that I'm not doing
(23:57):
well as a parent.
Where now, if a kid gets introuble at school?
Well, yeah, kids do immature,ill-advised things and then we
work with them and help themclean up, learn how to take
accountability and how to cleanit up, and I think that's maybe
the kind of thing that Tia'stalking about here.
It's not just about giving kidsmore latitude to explore, but
(24:21):
also redefining what it means tobe doing well in life, and I
think that's not only takingpressure off the kids, but it
also takes pressure off of us.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
I think it also helps me see my past self with a
little bit more grace, because Iwas really young when I started
worrying about my sin.
And if I got something wrong.
It wasn't a part of learningand growing, it was I had failed
.
I had failed God, and it wasenough to send you to hell.
And it was enough to send me tohell.
(24:54):
Yeah, and I think the processof parenting has allowed me to
reparent myself in ways I neverexpected.
And I see things happening andI'm like, oh, it's not about sin
, it's simply about learning,it's simply about navigating
(25:14):
life, it's simply learning aboutyourself and, of course, we
want our kids to do well and notto get into trouble and not
want them to flourish Right,right, but it comes down to it
being about connection, notcontrol 100%.
(25:35):
So the next point brings usback to this idea of maybe the
internet isn't as evil assometimes we're told it is.
She wrote I didn't realize therewas an entire community of
others traumatized by the church, and she found herself in
(25:57):
online spaces where there werecommunities of people who were
kind of working through andprocessing some of this
religious abuse.
And I think this is so veryimportant, because when you're
in an isolated community, we'retaught not to speak up, you're
taught to follow the rules,you're taught to understand how
(26:20):
important the hierarchy is, andso you kind of toe the line and
then, when you get into spaceswhere it is okay to speak up and
you can start sharing yourstory, it's like, oh wait,
there's other people who haveexperienced the same thing.
I'm not weird, maybe.
Maybe I'm actually kind ofnormal and somehow, in that, you
(26:42):
learn to develop and even trustyour voice.
And I think this is soimportant, because it's so easy
for us to doubt ourselves and tothink we're strange, to think
we're weird, and we probably areto a point.
But there are other people whoidentify with your experiences
(27:08):
and if you're sensing or feelingsomething, it is valid and
trust your voice, even if youvoice it only to yourself or one
other person, still trust yourvoice in that process, because
somewhere out there there is anentire community of people who
are like yeah, I hear you, I getthat, and there's someone
(27:31):
waiting to hear your story.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Just because you don't have that at the moment
doesn't mean it's not out there,right?
You just haven't found it yet.
Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
And I wonder if that's not maybe where the
strength of these isolatedcommunities lies.
Yeah, absolutely.
Something else Tia talked aboutas she was healing and working
through that whole process wasand again I quote what did it
mean to hold two opposing truthsat the same time?
(28:01):
And for me, I found this to beso important in rebuilding and
honestly, I think so much oflife is this it's holding two
opposing truths.
Am I sad my kids went back tocollege?
Yeah, but am I happy I don'thave to cook so much?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes, they're both so true.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Right, and so much of life is.
We can be absolutely gratefulfor something, but we can also
be sad about the same thing.
I can be so dang grateful thatI am in college, but I can also
be so sad that I'm as old as Iam and finally experiencing it.
Both truths are valid.
(28:42):
Experiencing it, both truthsare valid.
And I think this idea offocusing only on the positive
without acknowledging the griefor the sadness doesn't serve us
well.
And by holding those opposingtruths, I think it gives us
space to have grace and love forformer selves, which I think is
(29:04):
really difficult to do,especially when you're in that
grieving stage Because you thinkof all the things you could
have done differently, youshould have done differently,
the red flags you absolutelyblew through because you didn't
know.
And again, in that allows us tohave love, but it allows us to
grieve and I think in that youlearn to hold those opposing
(29:26):
truths.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
But I also think it allows us to be kinder humans,
because it's easy, in a rigidbelief system, to assume there's
only one truth, to say there'sonly one thing that's true
Either that action was right orit was wrong.
In this scenario, one of thesepeople is right and the other
(29:47):
person is wrong.
And what if we can expand ourminds enough to hold two of
those opposing truths?
Someone was doing the best theycould and also their actions
were hurtful.
I was hurt by something doesn'tmean that the other person was
necessarily acting on behalf ofthe devil.
(30:08):
It could be they were misguided.
It could be a million and onedifferent things.
Yes, and in that way it's orourselves, yes, when you talk
about flying through those redflags, realizing, like you know
what, instead of going, was thatrelationship a mistake or not?
Like either it was the rightthing or it was a mistake, one
(30:30):
or the other.
It's so limiting.
Maybe there were red flags, butmaybe there were valuable
things that came through that.
And I've said this before.
But I think it's so easy for usto look back at past mistakes
and imagine that if we had takenthe other route, it would have
been perfect.
(30:50):
And the reality is we mighthave just ended up with a bigger
mess if we'd gone a differentdirection.
Holding those two opposingtruths is so powerful and life
affirming Right, yeah, yeah.
And it allows us to live withthat mystery and that
uncertainty yeah, absolutelyyeah.
And it allows us to live withthat mystery and that
uncertainty yeah, absolutely,absolutely.
So, in thinking about the rolethat bystanders, compassionate
(31:16):
onlookers, can play insomebody's transition out of a
high demand group, we've got alist of a few things here that
kind of tie in with what we'vebeen talking about, but maybe
make them a little bit moreconcrete and specific.
The first one here is one thatRebecca touched on a little bit
ago about the importance ofrespecting the dignity, the
privacy and the autonomy of theperson.
(31:37):
Even if this is a person whohas come out of a group where
maybe they've not been able toexperience all the developmental
, the typical developmentalstages of other people their
same age in the mainstream, theyare still intelligent human
beings for whom dignity, privacyand autonomy are just as
(32:03):
important as someone who hasn'thad those experiences, I think
this is so incredibly important.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I've had the opportunity and the fortune of
working with some immigrants andI think it is so easy when
someone comes from anotherculture to think they're dumb or
they don't understand thinkthey're dumb, or they don't
understand, or it be.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I think we as Americans tend to see someone
with an accent as being lessintelligent, when in most of the
rest of the world, having anaccent means you can speak
multiple languages, and that'ssomething to admire that you're
smart.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,but in the US it's seen as like
oh, you're not smart enough tospeak good English, which is all
(32:51):
it does is make us look inbred.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Right, right, and I have seen people witness to
someone from a completedifferent culture and world and
they've never asked about theirfaith practices.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
They just make assumptions.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
But then I also realized howmuch those of us who grew up in
a high demand religion are kindof like an immigrant, like a lot
of those things they'relearning, are a lot the same.
All of a sudden, one day I sawmyself in the immigrant.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
That's solidarity, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah, and I think that'swhere real connection is, when
we can see where our commoninterests lie and where we can
stand together.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
And how much we're the same.
Yes, yes.
In fact, they're probablybraver than I am, Not probably
they are.
They're fighting things I nevereven thought about.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And to go back to what we weresaying just a second ago, isn't
it about holding what is similarand what is dissimilar at the
same time we're not hung up onit being one or the other but
that we can integrate both ofthose and still respect their
dignity and autonomy as a human?
I think another point relatedto this maybe growing out of
(34:22):
this is recognizing that healingisn't linear and that leaving
doesn't mean a person instantlybecomes your regulation white
bread, middle class American,and I think this is again.
This is kind of one of thepitfalls that come from having
from growing up in a countrythat is so large that many of us
(34:44):
have especially grew up in theMidwest or away from the coast,
really have grown up in placeswhere we're used to people who
look pretty much like ourselves,and so we have a hard time
imagining a normal that doesn'tlook like our lived reality.
And I've run into this as well,and I've often seen it not so
(35:08):
much in person but more inonline spaces, and I'm talking
here kind of the fundy, snarkworld where maybe somebody is
moving out of a very restrictiveway of living and the
expectations of the onlookersseem to be that now they flipped
a switch and now they're goingto see everything from the
(35:31):
perspective of someone who grewup with the standard white bread
, middle class Americanexperience and so realizing that
again holding two things atonce, two truths that when we
leave a situation, when we gothrough a major transition or a
(35:52):
major crisis, we still carry theimpact of what happened to us
before that crisis and that willalways still be part of who we
are.
And also we can integrate, wecan learn new things, but it's
going to be messy, it's going tobe nonlinear and it might not
happen at the same rate that anonlooker would expect it to the
(36:17):
point.
Here is a plea to be patientwith the messiness of it and if
it doesn't make sense to you,that's okay, because it probably
totally doesn't make sense tothe person going through it
either.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Absolutely.
And I think another importantpart to remember here is it's
not going to be linear, also inthe sense of emotions.
I remember talking to atherapist and I was angry.
I was like so, and I was angry.
I was like so freaking angry.
And he looked at me and he'slike isn't it exhausting being
(36:57):
that angry?
And I was like, screw you, thatis the most unhelpful thing I
have ever heard.
I remember just sitting thereand being like, really that's
all you got.
Remember just sitting there andbeing like really that's all
you got.
That's all you got.
What would have been helpful isif he would have asked some
questions, because eventually Ifigured out that underneath all
that anger was a motherlode ofgrief.
But I also realized that inthat motion, that anger was
(37:20):
literally what was getting meout of bed.
That anger was literally whatwas getting me out the door.
So don't be too shocked whenthere is anger, because there
will be anger.
I think what people aren'tactually prepared for then is
the grief that comes behind that, because the grief is much more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
It is much more gutting.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
It's much more gutting.
The same people who are shockedor Disapproving Disapproving of
the anger are not willing tosit through grief either.
And I'm telling you, grief isgoing to happen and the grief.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
I wasn't prepared for the grief and I wish that
therapist would have prepared mefor that for those onlookers,
(38:21):
those bystanders, to be awarethat those material needs might
be there too and it can vary somuch, because sometimes being in
a high control group is verymuch related to your income and
where you live and that kind ofthing, and then for others not
so much and so that's not anissue.
But I think being aware that itcould be is really important.
(38:43):
And then also connecting themto community resources,
connecting them to your socialor professional networks, or at
least helping them get connectedto relevant social and
professional networks, is sohuge.
One of those majorcharacteristics of being in a
(39:03):
high demand group is that youaren't connected to community
resources.
The social and professionalnetworks you had before may be
severed.
For example, when I left theAmish Mennonite tradition and
among other things, trying toget a job and all that, it never
occurred to me.
That there might be anorganization out there that has
donated clothing, donatedprofessional clothing for women
(39:26):
in my situation Never occurredto me, and I think there is one
in Oklahoma City somewhere.
I don't know if it was there atthe time.
Okay.
So yeah, they're out there forsure.
I mean, I worked at one, justnot in Oklahoma City.
Just the thing of makingfriends, the thing of developing
those professional networks,helping make those connections,
(39:47):
is so incredibly valuable.
I just can't state it enough,like, maybe it's as simple as an
introduction, maybe it's assimple as inviting them to a
backyard barbecue where they'regoing to be other people there
that they might connect with.
I guess another way of what I'msaying is, if you don't have
the bandwidth to take them underyour wing and make them your
(40:08):
bonus kid which.
I think most of us are therehelping, offering to make those
social and professional networkconnections can be such a
relatively small thing for you,that is a huge thing for them.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
So let me try putting it this way I have been to
funerals where literally theonly people that were at the
funeral were people from thehigh controlled, yes.
So let's think about it thisway when you are in a high
demand religious group,high-demand religious group,
(40:48):
typically that is your world,that is your education, that is
your employment, that is oftenwhat you know.
I have been to funerals ofsomeone who was inside the group
and lived a long life, but theonly person at that funeral were
people from their church group.
(41:09):
So it is possible to live in ahigh demand religion with almost
no outside connections notoutside or without meaningful
outside connections withoutmeaningful outside connections.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Right yeah, so if a person can live a long life and
be 80 when they pass, and a longmeaningful life.
We're not talking about someonewho's a recluse, but someone
who yeah who's active, butwithin the confines of their
group.
Yeah, within the confines oftheir group.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Yeah, so if someone can live a long, meaningful life
, but the only people who showup at their funeral is people
from within that group, imaginehow difficult it is when you
have a 20-year-old who decidesto leave the group Right.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Absolutely.
That's such a great way to putit.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
So keep that in mind.
Keep that in mind Absolutely.
(42:22):
That's such a networks to findfriendships.
And I think that that might bepart of the reason we so easily
go from one high controlledgroup to the next, because it
holds everything we're lookingfor.
Speaker 2 (42:37):
And you know, in our experience, we had social
security numbers, we had socialsecurity numbers, we had
driver's license.
Trying to do this without thosethings which there are plenty
who do Exactly.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
Oh, my goodness, that's not only difficult but
then expensive, and involvesattorney's fees and one
Emotional energy that many justdo not have.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yes, yes, exactly.
And yet to move forward theyhave to.
No wonder, no wonder returningto a high control group seems
like the most logical thing todo.
And that leads us to the lastpoint on my list encourage and
facilitate rest.
So one of my major annoyances isall the directives to busy
(43:28):
mothers to take time for selfcare.
It makes me want to punchsomebody in the face because I'm
like, well, you come take careof my responsibilities then, so
I can go self care.
Because there's often this kindof a judgment like, well,
you're not making time for selfcare, you've just got to make
time for yourself.
And it's like judgment likewell, you're not making time for
self-care, you've just got tomake time for yourself.
And it's like, well, then youcome make dinner.
(43:48):
Anyway, that's my personalbaggage, okay.
So what I'm saying is, if wehave someone coming through a
really difficult crisis ortransition like this and they
might be reestablishing almostevery part of their life, from
where they live to where theywork and all that and their
friend circles, all that, thatdoes not leave much time for
(44:09):
rest, and rest is exactly whatyou need at a time like that.
You need relaxation, your bodyneeds a place of safety to rest
and repair.
So if you, as an onlooker, ifthere's anything you can do to
facilitate it, please do,whether it's saying hey, come
swim in my pool whenever youneed an afternoon, whatever it
(44:32):
might be.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Join us for Christmas dinner, join us for a barbecue,
join us for back to schoolshopping.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Yes, yes, or we're just having pizza tonight.
But if you want to come on over, something that takes some of
the weight that's hanging onthem off, even if it's for a few
minutes, can be so meaningful.
And I think it's easy tooverlook, because when you are
rebuilding man, that takesadditional energy.
But when you have come througha crisis, that takes additional
(45:01):
energy.
But when you have come througha crisis, you're already running
on empty, probably, and thentrying to do that, and I think
that's one of the reasons whythese chronic conditions are so
common for people in thissituation, because it's the
nervous system, the body'ssaying enough, enough, enough.
(45:21):
Our world is not set up forpeople to have rest and times
like these, our society is notset up for that, and that's a
whole other issue.
So to what extent we can stepin there is huge.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
I'm so glad you talked about the need for rest
and how exhausting it is,because I think that gets so
overlooked and I think sometimesthe expectations we place on
people when they're making thosechanges are unrealistic and I
am so glad you talked to that.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
So, coming up next we're going to talk about our
takeaways, kind of our reactionsto when we were reading
interactions to when we werereading Right, I was struck by
how much I could identify withher inner life, even though our
day-to-day experiences were sodifferent, our life trajectories
(46:15):
were so different, and I'm sureI'm not alone in that either.
I think that's really one ofthe strengths of the book is
that she is putting words toideas and thoughts and fears
that many of us have had andhaven't had language for.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Right, but wasn't it shocking to you she didn't have
any Anabaptist background?
No, like I kept thinking shecould totally have had an
Anabaptist background with someof the things she was talking
about.
And I was so curious about that, Like how is that even possible
?
And then I started recognizinghow so many of the names and
(46:55):
influences were actually thesame people.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Are you saying that maybe Anabaptists aren't as
unique as we think we are?
I worry, so many of the namesand the influences she mentions
were familiar.
I mean, maybe they were more orless influential in our lives,
but still those ideas were verypresent.
Speaker 1 (47:19):
But I was familiar with all the names, like I
recognized all the names shementioned.
She had a complete list ofpeople who have quote fallen and
I recognized all of them.
She mentioned Gary Ezzo, sothey're the ones who would have
written Babywise.
(47:40):
Yeah, josh Harris, I KissedDating Goodbye.
Bill Gothard, the Duggars, dougPhillips, paige Patterson.
Speaker 2 (47:49):
And then you had other names that you thought of
too, that you could add to thelist.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Right, right.
I mean we have Hybels, we haveJohn Howard Yoder, who was an
Anabaptist, anabaptist, jerryFalwell Jr.
I mean the list continues.
But even more than that, shewas influenced by John Piper,
john MacArthur, a lot of theseRC Sproul, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes
(48:18):
, yes, yes.
And I was kind of surprised howmuch the Calvinist faith has
influenced the Anabaptists.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Right, because growing up, my memory is that we
were definitely not Calvinist.
Oh, we would be horrified to beProudly not Calvinist.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Yeah, right, right, but it's interesting to me here
in Holmes County 10 years agothere were a lot of beachy
Beninite men especially who weredeep into Driscoll and his
teachings.
I'm sure I mean we even had agroup who called themselves the
(49:02):
Acts 29 Church, which wastotally off of Driscoll.
Wow, and it just gives me a lotof pause.
It gives me a lot of pause whenwe have Anabaptists who are
absolutely not Calvinists.
And then I also have friendswho are in the Calvinist church
who think the Anabaptists arehorrible and I'm like do you
(49:24):
guys not see how closely we'rerelated?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Well, let me ask so, like those folks in, say, holmes
County who have this Anabaptistbackground but are taken by,
entranced by Mark Driscoll, whatare the chances that it's not
so much the Calvinism they'reinterested in as it is the
misogyny they admire?
(49:47):
Ouch, I can say that because Idon't know them.
It's just a question.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
So what I'm going to suggest is this Typically, a lot
of these leaders tend to bemore uneducated and the
Calvinist teaching show up witha lot more scholarly terms and
it sounds familiar and I thinkit's easy to read and feel like
(50:17):
you have more education than thepeople you're leading.
Speaker 2 (50:21):
Because you've got something new to share.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
You have something new, but you have something.
Speaker 2 (50:29):
Something new that you can share with a lot of
confidence.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, yeah, because the whole Calvinist thing is
hugely black and white.
This is it.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (50:38):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
I think we need to just be really aware, is it that
?
Speaker 2 (50:45):
not only I think, in the backgrounds we come from,
it's easy to think that the onlyway to evaluate something is by
how well it aligns with theWord of God.
Well, of course, the reality ispeople make the Word of God
align with kind of whatever theywant right.
So the Word of God has withkind of whatever they want right
.
So the word of God has a lot ofthings to say.
(51:06):
So another way to evaluateideas is what is their effect?
What comes out of?
What is the fruit?
What is the fruit of Driscoll'steaching, and is that the kind
of person we want to be?
Speaker 1 (51:21):
The other thing I couldn't help but notice was in
the book.
Tia was the one in therelationship who was frustrated.
She was the one trying tofigure out how to create changes
for her family.
She was trying to figure outhow to be the good wife.
She was the one who wassearching for therapy.
(51:42):
And I had to think about howoften we see that pattern.
Oftentimes it is the female whois the first in therapy, who
even assumes that it's her faultand assumes that if she would
somehow do the right thing, herfamily would be healthier, her
marriage would be better.
(52:03):
And this isn't reflected in thebook so much, but I'm going to
take it one step further.
I often see females who finallyget into therapy.
They assume that it's theirfault, they assume that they
need to be making changes andsomewhere along the line they
figure out oh, there's thisthing called boundaries.
(52:24):
Somewhere along the line theyfigure out oh, there's this
thing called boundaries.
What's that?
They learn to trust their voice.
And oftentimes what happens is,all of a sudden, her partner
gets nervous and decides it'stime for marriage or couples
counseling, when the partner, infact, has done no work of their
own.
And let me just say you'reallowed to be offended about
(52:47):
that if that happens to you, andyou're also allowed to say no,
I have done some work and Iwould like to create a space for
you to also do your work.
And how about if you do some ofyour work and then we think
about couples or marriagetherapy?
This idea that somehow thefemale needs to do the emotional
(53:12):
labor in the marriage and evenin the therapist's office needs
to be challenged.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
Right, and I think we've got an upcoming podcast on
that.
Bare Marriage had some amazingmemes that you shared with me
and, I think, encourage you.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
If you're feeling any of this, know there's validity
there and, yes, this isabsolutely something we'll talk
about more.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
So it's really interesting to think about how
we were raised in Anabaptistgroups that I thought cared
about the tradition.
I mean we would have said thatthose general conference
Mennonites were Mennonite nameonly.
We were the real ones becausewe were holding the traditional
(54:13):
line.
But upon studying and learningabout what early Anabaptists
actually believed and taught, itwas a surprise to realize no
wait, those things that we thinkare so important as the
traditional Anabaptists wereactually not that big a deal to
the early Anabaptists.
(54:34):
And I'm thinking of things likeadult baptism, so baptism on
the confession of faith ratherthan as an infant because of
their parents' choice, voluntarychurch membership, separation,
church estate, pacifism,non-resistance, especially as it
relates to politicalaffiliation, that kind of thing.
(54:58):
Our friend, rebecca Mui, wrote aMedium post about this whole
dynamic.
Rebecca was not born and raisedMennonite but came to
Anabaptist beliefs as a youngadult and she has an
impressively nuanced view of theculture and dynamics within it.
(55:19):
She's also a PhD student andstudies these kinds of things,
spends a lot of time thinkingabout these kinds of things.
So we're going to link her postin the show notes and if anyone
else is interested in thisdichotomy between what it means
to be traditional or not andtraditional Anabaptist or not.
I think you would find her postvery interesting.
Speaker 1 (55:42):
So, in short, what passes as Anabaptist theology
today, I think, has so muchunacknowledged Calvinist and
fundamental Baptist influenceand you'll see it like in the
emphasis on control hierarchyand like force group conformity
that are really in directopposition to historical
(56:03):
Anabaptist beliefs.
Is it fair to say that thetradition that some of the
Anabaptist churches in our pasthave clung to would be closer to
the Amish tradition and less tothe actual Anabaptist tradition
(56:25):
?
Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well, I think that's what I'm saying.
I think that's what I'm saying,and there are other ways that
could be said, but I think thatis what I'm saying, and I think
it's.
Many who aren't as familiarwould assume that the Amish are
the originals and everybody elsewho has moderated has peeled
off from them.
(56:46):
But actually it's not that waynecessarily.
So, yes, I think that isexactly what I'm saying.
It's complicated and I'm justinviting people into the
complication.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
Not that I have anything really clever or
insightful to say about it, justthat it's a complication that I
think is worth exploringinsightful to say about it just
that it's a complication that Ithink is worth exploring Right,
and I for sure don't mean it asa criticism, because I am quite
defensive of my Amish friendsand relatives and there are
(57:18):
parts of the Anabaptist faiththat I find myself really
circling around to and embracing.
So I don't mean any of thisconversation as a criticism, but
rather as asking us to be a bitmore critical, maybe, about
what we allow to influence us.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Yeah, or maybe even aware of what is influencing us,
because I think a lot of well.
I mean, just think of anysermon that we heard.
How many times were sourcesreferenced?
How many times are sources notreferenced, who knows?
And it's not that the rules ofplagiarism apply to preaching in
(58:05):
the same way they do inscholarly writing, but I think A
it's only natural when ideasare woven in and through right,
that's only normal.
What's interesting is when wethink we have this pure belief
and maybe, on closer observation, we find out we've been
(58:27):
influenced by other voices aswell, and I think it just gives
us a more accurate understandingof our world.
Maybe it gives us a moreaccurate sense of just how
special we are, or not.
Speaker 1 (58:42):
Yeah, because I think we like to think we're one in a
million or we're God's chosenpeople or you know whatever,
when maybe we're not quite asspecial as we think we are, and
to take it just one step morefurther.
So stick with me here.
We'd like to talk about thedanger of radical Islam, or
(59:06):
Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons andall their wives I mean, we've
all heard this but something wedon't talk about is the danger
of radical Christians, and Ithink we need to think about
that too.
Fundamentalism isfundamentalism.
It doesn't really matter whatfaith practice you're talking
(59:29):
about, what ideology you'retalking about.
It's something we need to beaware of, and I'm going to
suggest, and maybe even argue,that we should no more want a
Christian nation than we wouldwant a Catholic, an Islamic, a
Mormon fill in the blank nation,because freedom of religion is
(59:53):
not freedom of religion unlessit's freedom of religion for
everyone involved.
Speaker 2 (59:58):
That's right.
Oh, and that is another one ofthose Core Anabaptist teachings.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Guess what?
Look at me circling around.
Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
That seems to have been abandoned.
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely so.
I so agree with this, and Iremember the day, a long time
ago, sitting in traffic andtalking with someone about I
think we're talking aboutdifferent political systems and
kind of doing this kind ofbacking up and saying, well, you
know which political systemshave the best outcomes and which
(01:00:29):
and it hit me that demands forideological purity result in
tyranny, regardless of what thesystem is, and I think that's
what all these kinds of radicalgroups have in common, or
fundamentalisms have in commonit is a rigidity and a demand
(01:00:50):
for ideological purity thatbecomes tyrannical, and that is
the problem.
Really good job breaking someof those threads down is
Straight White American Jesuspodcast.
They talk about a lot ofcurrent events, they talk about
(01:01:11):
the presence of Christiannationalism and you know kind of
some of those streams ofthought within it.
Both of the podcast hosts haveat one time been fundamentalist
preachers and now they are nolonger so they speak as insiders
.
They're also academics and theyhave a very well-informed view
on their topic, and they alsohave a great sense of humor lots
(01:01:34):
of dad jokes For anyoneconcerned about radical
Christianity and the impact itcan have on the US Straight
White American Jesus is anawesome podcast for thinking
about those things.
So I think, in summing this up,we've spent most of the podcast
talking about relevant pointsfor bystanders, for folks who
(01:01:55):
are standing alongside those whoare making these difficult
transitions.
I think for those who havelived in an insular religious
environment, I think for thosewho have lived in an insular
religious environment, what thebook offers is a way to think
about and a way to recognizesome of the most pernicious mind
games and social traps thatkeep unhappy, dissatisfied
(01:02:19):
people from making the changesthey need to make so that they
can live life on their own terms, from making the changes they
need to make so that they canlive life on their own terms.
And so for anyone who feelsstuck in a place like that, a
place where they feel tornbetween the demands that are
placed on them and who they knowthemselves to be, I think this
book can offer a lot of hope anda lot of ways of imagining how
(01:02:42):
to break free.
Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Absolutely, and I think this book is such a prime
example of the way that midlifepivots are just never easy and
each one has its own unique setsof challenges and rewards, and
I so appreciate the way TiaLovings works us through that
(01:03:04):
process.
Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
With a sense of humor .
Speaker 1 (01:03:06):
On top of humor.
Yeah Right, she makes us laughand cry.
Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
Exactly, exactly, it's awesome.
Yeah, in the spirit of talkingabout midlife pivots, in an
upcoming episode we're going todo a deep dive into Rebecca's
experiences of starting collegeafter 40 and what that's like.
You know what's what yourday-to-day experiences have been
like.
So, for our listeners, ifthere's something you are
(01:03:30):
curious about the college lifeand this can be anything from
you know how to apply to thingsrelated to how do you deal with
this.
Did you ever run into this kindof situation?
Whatever's on your mind, textus a question that you'd like us
to talk about with Rebecca, andjust know that we want this
podcast to be a place where it'ssafe to ask the kind of
(01:03:51):
questions that Google can answer, and we can promise you you're
probably not the only one withthat question, and others will
be really grateful that youasked it, so please get in touch
also in the pipeline.
Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
We're tackling an excellent question asked by one
of our very insightful listenersabout this idea of going to
college as a creationist andencountering the teachings of
evolution in a public settingfor maybe the first time.
What do you do when you're in aclassroom and everyone's
(01:04:25):
talking about evolution andthere's no one snickering but
you?
How, in that, do we stay trueto ourselves when we are
confronted by new information?
Is this something you'veexperienced?
We would be so delighted tohear from you, so send us a text
and tell us all about it, andwe will see you next time.
Thank you for spending timewith us today.
(01:05:00):
The resources and materialswe've mentioned are linked in
the show notes and on Facebookat Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
What are your thoughts about college and
recovery from high demandreligion?
We know you have your ownquestions and experiences and we
want to talk about the topicsthat matter to you.
Share them with us atuncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
That's uncoveredlifebeyond atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
If you enjoyed today's show and found value in
it, please rate and review it onyour favorite podcast app.
This helps others find the showWhile you're there.
Subscribe to our podcast so younever miss an episode Until
next time stay brave, stay bold,stay awkward.
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