June 18, 2024 • 30 mins
The psychotherapeutic process is one which has many intrigued and curious about the inner workings of the therapist, the patient and all that it involves. What happens behind those closed doors? Is it jus someone listening to you or more then that? How does it all work? Is there some method to the madness as some would describe? And how does our favorite psychoanalyst from The Sopranos measure up?
Get a sneak peak from the perspective of "the client" and the "psychotherapist" as Anita Astley shares her perspective, having sat on both sides of the couch, in addition to adressing questions and comments from her listeners and social media followers. Support the Show.Follow Anita Astley, M.ED. LMFT psychotherapist and author, at ask_anita_astley and on Instagram, Facebook, ask Anita Astley on YOUTUBE, ask Anita Astley on twitter. Check out Anita's website at www.askanitaastley.com
Order your copy of Anita' Astley's book today on Amazon
"Unf*ck Your Life and Relationships"
https://www.amazon.com/Unf-Your-Life-Relationships-Lessons/dp/1637631235
Get a sneak peak from the perspective of "the client" and the "psychotherapist" as Anita Astley shares her perspective, having sat on both sides of the couch, in addition to adressing questions and comments from her listeners and social media followers. Support the Show.Follow Anita Astley, M.ED. LMFT psychotherapist and author, at ask_anita_astley and on Instagram, Facebook, ask Anita Astley on YOUTUBE, ask Anita Astley on twitter. Check out Anita's website at www.askanitaastley.com
Order your copy of Anita' Astley's book today on Amazon
"Unf*ck Your Life and Relationships"
https://www.amazon.com/Unf-Your-Life-Relationships-Lessons/dp/1637631235
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome to What Fucked Your Life andRelationships with Anna Askley, psycho therapist and
author, and Ryan Rossman, recordingstudio owner and music producer. This is
a podcast like no other. Sitforward, listen in, and get ready
to get unfucked from the inside out. Odd fuck your Life, Odd fuck
(00:26):
your Life. Hey, guys,welcome to another session of Unfuck Your Life
and Relationships. Today we are backin studio. Ryan's here, al Amanda,
Good morning. How are you guys? Doing you live in the dream?
Fine? Fine to go there yetthey just have a little thing before.
(00:48):
We're not going to get into thatright now. What we're gonna talk
about today is psychotherapy. What ispsychotherapy was a psychotherapist. I will give
you an operational definition of it,and then we're going to dissect it and
talk about it. It is oneof those things that people are very curious
(01:10):
about and afraid of. Some loveit, some don't. We're going to
get into all of that, butI will give you a working definition to
help you out, guys. Itis a process that refers to a variety
of treatments that are designed to helppeople identify and change dysfunctional emotions, thoughts,
and behaviors and treatment, of course, is determined by the clinicians a
(01:34):
theoretical orientation. What does that mean? Everything we do in the office is
driven by some theory, some theorythat's been designed. The first one was
obviously from Freud. Well I sayobviously, but not obvious to most people.
With psycho analysis, and I'm suremost of you are familiar on some
level with that. You know,the person lying on the couch and the
(01:56):
person behind it. Freud came upwith that. He's the founding father of
talk therapy, Sigmund Freud, andhe is the one who first talked about
the unconscious, the subconscious, andthe conscious mind. He gave, he
has gave a lot, contributed alot fel to the field of psychotherapy,
even though some theories today move sofar away from him. That's okay,
(02:17):
you know, but medal theories arereally going to determine how what the experience
you're going to have with your therapistin the office, the modality that they
believe in. This cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure most of you are
familiar with. You've heard about it, CBT, if you read some of
the stuff it is, you knowvery concrete in terms of what we do
with people in the office, clientsin the office. There is behavioral therapy,
(02:40):
There is the humanistic approach, thereis systems theory. So all of
this to say, there is morethan just talking and listening that's going on.
That is a foundation of it,but more than that, Because people
say, what really happens? Youguys just kind of sit there and listen.
I'm like, yeah, okay,you might have that impression. And
we do some of that, buta lot of what we do is based
(03:02):
on our theoretical framework, which ofcourse determines, as I said, treatment
and then diagnosis and all that clinicalstuff. I want to talk about today
the therapeutic relationship, what happens inthat office between the patient and the therapist,
but also what happens to the relationshipsaround that person who's in therapy.
(03:24):
But I also want to talk aboutmy perspective as a therapist. And I've
shared this before. I have saton both sides of the couch during my
training. I was required to gofor my own treatment. I remember thinking,
there's nothing wrong with me. Andyou know, if you're going to
read my book called un Fuck YourLife and Relationships available on Amazon and Simon
(03:44):
and Schuster. I do share vignettesof my own private sessions with doctor Frank
and I remember walking into his officeand saying, doctor Frank, I'm only
here for didactic purposes fancy term tosay learning experience, and he just kind
of looked at me like, allright, sit your ass down. He
didn't say it at all. Lasthe goes, oh, yeah, he
probably did, but he said,yeah, okay, sit down. Thank
(04:05):
you for telling me that. Ofcourse he was well aware of that because
he taught at the institute that Iwas going to. But then twice a
week six years later, I waslike, oh my god, I never
want to stop. And it justbecame this experience that I still hold on
today, at the age of fiftyfive. I started, I think in
(04:26):
my twenties, and I would havenever stopped. I had to move from
Montreal, and of course it's suchan intimate relationship that he could not be
replaced. He still can't be.He's retired now, and I remember calling
him a few times throughout the yearsasking for some advice and seeking his opinion
on just being a therapist myself,but also as his former patient. But
(04:48):
all of that to say it is. From my perspective as the patient,
it is one of the most intimaterelationships I've ever had with a man,
the most different relationship I've ever hadwith the men, the most unique,
I should say that's the proper word. But a relationship that terminates also in
a very interesting manner. Most relationships, if you think about it, they
(05:11):
usually end because there's a fight,somebody dies, somebody moves away, and
that might you know, the relationshipmight not continue. But the therapeutic relationship,
when you think about termination, it'sthe termination in and of itself from
therapy is a whole deal because peopledo become attached to their therapist. I
was very attached to him and tolet him go with such a difficult process.
(05:35):
So termination is very interesting process oftherapy. And as a therapist sitting
on the other side of the couch, I'm like, yeah, I help
clients do that all the time.But then people say, well, when
should termination happen? That's a wholeanother scenario. What I want to get
into later on that Amanda's going toshare her views and Ryan's gonna, you
know, because Ryan said he doesn'tneed therapy, but we're going to talk
(05:57):
about talk about people who say thosekinds of things, I absolutely need therapy.
He knows we all in here arevery supportive of the therapeutic process and
therapy itself. But let and youknow, I just want to talk about
before we listen to your stories,guys, the concept of change, because
every theory out there is trying toanswer one question, which is how does
(06:21):
change take place and how do webest help people change. Theories are trying
to answer those questions, and theway they answer them is different, and
depending on your orientation, that's whatyou're going to do in your office as
a clinician. So we just wantto, you know, stop that stereotype
out there that we just sit thereand listen, don't do anything. No,
(06:43):
everything that we do is driven bya theoretical framework and what we believe
about change and how change takes placeand psycho analysis. You know, people
papua and say blah blah blah,all these negative things about it. But
it was the first theoretical framework fortalk therapy, going back to Sigmund Freud,
the founding father of talk therapy.And although I was trained in psychoanalysis,
(07:06):
my theoretical orientation is an integrative approach, meaning I borrow from various schools
of thought because I believe no onetheory can answer the question of how do
people change, And that, ofcourse is executed differently depending on who is
sitting in front of me and wherethey are in their process of change.
(07:28):
And change is a huge word.It's threatening, people are scared of it.
They want it, but it's uncomfortable. But all of therapy is about
helping people create some kind of changein their life. And sometimes when people
come in and say, well,Anita, I used to feel much better
before I started to see you,So then I'm like, yeah, it's
all my fault. But change isuncomfortable and I need the answer to that.
(07:51):
I always say, well, ofcourse it's difficult, and your life
is going to I should well hitthe fan before it gets better. Because
walking around in the world out there, you can be in denial of all
this stuff. But in here,eventually I'm going to confront you with some
of your stuff that's going on,and that's going to be uncomfortable. Because
anytime we are seeking to make change, it's uncomfortable. We're sometimes very comfortable
(08:13):
in our misery, even though wedon't like it. It's comfortable, it's
familiar, it's a familiar place,so of course change creates a feeling of
oh my god, what's happening.And I always remind them listen, dude,
you came to see me. Ididn't come to see you. But
when people start to feel like that, it is really important for the therapist
(08:33):
to be able to draw them backinto the room because at that point,
you know, people start canceling appointments. I'm not coming, I'm sick.
This is going on, and that'shappened to me. I've been on the
canceling side. I did that tomy own psychoanalysts when things were getting difficult.
And then, of course I wasreally pissed with him because he's like,
well, if you don't come in, And I shared this story in
(08:54):
the book because it's very relevant towhat we're talking about today. If you
don't come in and eat, I'mgoing to charge you. I was so
fucking pissed. I'm like, I'ma student, I'm poor, I have
no money. I have a testto study for. That's why I'm canceling.
He said, this is like thesecond time you've canceled in a row.
And I, you know, I'mgoing to charge you, and I
might even fire you because you're notvery committed at this point. And I'm
(09:16):
totally committed to you, and I'mlike, oh my god, he doesn't
love me, just like my fatherdidn't love me. All that transference comes
into and then I will tell youthat was a turning point of my therapy
therapy process with him, the experience, it took on a totally different uh.
It went to a completely different hotlevel in terms of emotional intimacy with
(09:37):
him. I totally took the processmuch more seriously and I thought, Okay,
I need to invest in this moreemotionally. I'm kind of just playing
around. But it is when truetrust between him and I started. And
then I also learned and it's aninteresting position to be. And so I
was the patient, but at thesame time I was training to be a
(09:58):
therapist myself. So he said tome, you know, I charge you
because that's the ugly part of therapy, the business part. But it is
a business, and where I'm runninga business here, you keep canceling on
me. The other part of chargingyou is to help you understand, as
a student member, you came fordidactic purposes. Right now is that people
(10:18):
want to jump out of the processwhen it gets difficult, so they start
canceling. And what you have todo is you charge them, even if
you're uncomfortable with charging them as atherapist, because when it hits you in
the pocket, most people will havea reaction to it. Right when you
have to pay for something, you'regoing to look at it very differently,
(10:39):
especially if you are not present andyou're paying for a service that you're not
present for. So that's part ofgetting people back in to say, Okay,
I'm gonna have to pay for this, I might as well go in.
But the secondary part, which isreally important to the therapeutic process,
is you were trying to run awayfrom me. I don't want you to
run away from me because I wantyou to work through this issue. Out
(11:01):
there, you can run away allyou want, but in here, we've
been working for so long, andhe did, he said, we've been
working for like oops, sorry,I found bad, My bad. We've
been working together for almost a year. And we would have a pivotal point
talking about your dad and your feelingsof rejection and all of that, and
of course you want to run away. You tested me to see if I
(11:22):
cared about you or not, becauseI did say to him, I said,
Oh, you don't care about me, and that's why you want to
charge me. I thought you actuallycared about me, and if you cared
about me, you wouldn't charge me. He said, I'm charging you because
I care about you. If thatmakes any sense. What do you guys
think? No, absolutely, becauseyou have to. You have to not
only be like super committed to that, but then like the routine of everything
(11:45):
I think is important because you sortof build up what is it like,
momentum and all those things, andthen you stop and it's sort of like
you have to kind of reset alittle bit. And I also have to
like, yeah, this person isputting a lot of time. Although you're
going to them and paying them money, they're putting a lot of time and
brain power and sometimes it's outside ofthose sessions into what's happening, and you've
(12:05):
got to be committed to it.Accountability I think helps for anything, like
if you're trying to stick to ordo anything, when you're given a sense
of accountability, yeah, it canbe the make or break ingredient in success.
Yes, And also part of Isay to people, and when they
try to make me feel guilty becausenow I do it. I charge my
(12:26):
patients too, for all the reasonswe just talked about. Is I say,
listen, your doctor would charge you, your dentist would charge you.
Why is it that when it's inthis process, it's such a hurtful thing
that's happening to you because it issuch an intimate relationship and it is such
an emotional experience to go through.If you stick with it long enough and
you have a good connection with yourtherapist, you do feel like a sense
(12:50):
of wait a minute, if youcared for me, you would be so
empathic that I couldn't come to thissession or I'm feeling this when I can't
afford it. And then as aneffective therapist, it is trying to balance
the two so the client doesn't feelrejected or hurt by the fee, but
then you can explain why you hadto do what you had to do.
It's ugly, it's uncomfortable. I'vehad to do it, and you know,
(13:13):
I went through it with my owntherapist. But I understand it now
also from the side of a patient, but also from the side of a
therapist, and I think that's whyall therapists out there should have their own
therapists, because they need to learnhow to do all this stuff and they
need to experience the injury that sometimeswe feel being on the other side.
(13:33):
Sure, no, I think alsoto that point too, like I think
the most valuable thing that we haveis our time. Yeah, and you
also want to make sure that peopleare respecting and valuing your time as well.
Yeah, but sometimes therapists, becausewe're helpers, you know, and
I've done this, I've given waytoo much time and that thing hasn't been
(13:54):
paid for. But I remember,you know, I'll go over over the
hour, the fifty minutes or whatever, and I won't charge for it.
And my therapists used to say tome, so you don't value yourself.
You don't value your profession, andyou don't value your time, and you
don't value yourself. And I said, now, of course I do.
I was very defensive, but inthinking about it, I actually have an
issue with that and I really hadto work on that for me to even
(14:16):
increase my fees with my patients.I was like, oh my god,
this is so uncomfortable. And Ihad to really make sure that that didn't
come across to the patient because they'dpick up on my own anxiety. But
if that took years, that tookyears for because in the helping profession we
kind of struggle with some of thosethings. You know, we undervalue the
service, and that's from undervaluing ourselves. And you know, I'm an open
(14:37):
book, it's in the book.I suffered with that for years, not
valuing myself, and that came acrossin how much I charged people, because
my colleague would be like, whatare you charging? Are you kidding me?
Stop that because you're devaluing our service. That's oh I have Well,
I definitely have that problem. Idon't know the value of my time.
(14:58):
Yeah, you but so much timeand brain power into everyone and every everything.
Yeah, I have a really hardtime with that. Yeah, I
will say that, and I getit too. I mean I think we
all have that. Like I struggleeven setting my prices, you know,
at the studio and doing extra things, going above and beyond the same.
It's artists, you know, andeverybody is psychotherapy. People forget it is
(15:26):
a form of art, and we'rein the helping profession and sometimes it's you
know, I I have gotten thisin my mind, you know when I
was younger that I'm helping, Ineed to help, And yeah, they're
right, you know I shouldn't.I should give them more time, and
I shouldn't be charging so much theycan't afford it. But then I have
to put my business hat on.Say wait a minute. You invested a
lot of money a lot of timein your career, and you have to
(15:50):
value yourself and value the process,and money is a part of that.
It is a business. If Iwas, you know, a lot of
time. I have a question foryou thinking about that and like the weight
of taking in everyone's most difficult thingsin a concentrated hour. Yeah, Like
(16:10):
there's also I would imagine, likeis there decompressed time that you need or
like how do you how do youwalk away from it and not just be
burdened by all of that happiness that'sbrought to you in sessions. Yeah,
that's a very good question. AmandaFreud would say, well, I have
the fifteen minute hour and ten minutesI decompress and switch. But I don't
(16:32):
believe it to be true. Well, going back to my history, I
was always a therapist. I justdidn't know it. I was the middle
child, right, I had mymom coming to me, but my dad
should I born that way. Ihad my two brothers sandwich between them,
you know. So I was alwaysa therapist. I was always taking on
people's issues, but my own therapyhelped me to realize that and unfuck some
(16:53):
of that stuff. But getting backto how I deal with it today,
I like to, you know,from the practical part, go back to
back boom boom, boom boom,and I can do that, and that
it took years to kind of trainmyself to do that. But what I
have my own therapists. Every therapistshould have if they don't. But I
have my own therapists that I youknow, doctor Frank was really hard to
replace, but that somebody I checkin with with. Yeah, because it
(17:15):
is a lot. And I thinkas a therapist, I need to feel
balanced myself, because if I'm not, how do I help other people feel
balanced. We don't want to bethe wounded healer. There's a lot of
people out there who are practicing therapyand they themselves are so wounded that sometimes
it's ineffective. And we're human.Of course. I went through a recent
(17:36):
divorce and I had to take sometime off to myself to heal from that
so I could get back into myoffice. But that gave me a lot
more empathy for what I was doingwith people who are, you know,
going through a divorce process, allthe ups and downs of that. I
not only knew it theoretically and fromexperiential experience with other clients, but then
I knew about it personally myself,and I had to go through my own
(17:59):
healing process. But we need todecompress, and that's why we don't work
forty hours a week. Therapists generallyaverage twenty five to thirty. And I
know clients, I know clinicians whowork forty hours and I'm just like,
and they're burnt out, and I'mlike, how at what point are you
ineffective? And sometimes I you know, I could work a later hour,
but then I think, no,that person is going to get the worst
(18:22):
of me. And I don't wantanybody to get the worst of me.
But you know, that happens anyway, That's part of life. Like probably
go to the doctrine. If I'mthe last patient, I know he's probably
or she's probably really tired, andwe're done, and that's normal and natural,
but I really try not to.But I've had clients who have said,
oh, I used to see thistherapist and she literally would fall asleep
on me. So these are thenightmare stories. And I'll tell you this,
(18:44):
but not good. And she's stillshe stayed with that therapist for a
year. Guys, I want totell you something. If you don't like
your therapists or uncomfortable with them,first talk to them about it. Right.
I do think you should talk aboutit because maybe there's something else going
on that you're projecting onto the therapist, but things like falling asleep. So
I said to her, how whatI didn't even understand how that can happen?
(19:08):
Because I when I'm sitting with thepatient, they're looking right at me.
I'm looking right at them. It'sa very con I'm like, how
do you get away with that?How you in but this person's state.
It was twice that it happened thatthe therapist fell asleep. I'm like,
oh my gosh. So anyway,if that's happening to you, guys,
change therapist. That is totally wrong, inappropriate, should not happen. I
(19:33):
can't even imagine that happening to me. Not funny but not funny, right,
but people It's an example of howwhen people get used to somebody,
uh, they stay because the againgoing back to the concept of change,
change is harder. But I'm like, seriously, you're paying for this person.
They're falling asleep. You know.Yeah, change is hard, but
(19:53):
sometimes change is necessary, especially inthat situation itself. I want I don't
want ask you, guys, youropinion and the talk that goes on in
your friends circle, family about psychotherapywell or your experiences that you'll have.
I'll say this, I think myselfincluded. There's a lot of talk about
(20:17):
like, oh, therapy is great, everyone should be in therapy. But
I'm not currently in therapy, youknow, And we all say that,
right, but like are we doingit? And I think one of the
biggest barriers is cost, right,and a lot of insurance doesn't it.
I don't want to pay for it, which is just a huge barrier because
(20:38):
it's just as important as like thebrain and the foot and the hand and
everything else it is. And soI think that that stops a lot of
people. And I wonder, likein a societal way, like how do
you unfuck that? Like, howdo you unfuck access to mental health care
because yeah, because what they chargeis what they're worthy. Yeah, it's
(21:00):
it's not lower prices, y's accessand availability. And I want to say,
you know, because you're a creativeperson, so you're around very creative
people who say, yeah, everybodyshould be in psychotherapy. But I know
a lot of people who really pupoosepsychotherapy and they think everybody else but themselves
should be in therapy. And they'relike, oh, what is that anyway?
(21:21):
You guys just sit there and talkand what do you do? And
I want to say something. Ilisten to people say that around me,
and I always look at those people. They're the most fuck that people,
and I think, yeah, youare the ones who should be in therapy,
but everybody around you is in therapybecause that's what you're doing, that's
what you're exuding so much stress.So I hate I just don't like it
(21:41):
when people make those blanket statements aboutany profession, because especially about psychotherapy,
when they have no idea what thefuck goes on in a room and they're
afraid to be honest. When peoplesay that to me, I'm like,
Okay, it's because they're afraid ofchange. They're afraid of what might happen.
They're afraid of confrontation. But gettingback to your point about fees,
Yeah, the fees, and I'veyou know, I struggle with this all
(22:03):
the time, with establishing a feeand explaining to people. But now,
well I should correct myself. Iused to struggle with that. I don't
struggle with that anymore. I strugglewith insurance companies. They are the necessary
evil. And I'll tell you UnitedHealthcare, which I work with, they're
a great company, good to theirproviders and so forth. But some are
(22:23):
not and they will not pay.And people who don't know this, and
I explain this to people, theywill not pay. If you came to
see me and you say you haverelationship issues, they will not cover that.
And most policyholders don't know that.What they will cover is some generalize
anxiety. To sort everything that's inthat bible, the DSM Diagnostic Statistical Manual
(22:45):
Mental Disorders, and sometimes therapists areforced to say, well, are you
comfortable. You seem a little anxious, and you exhibit some symptoms of anxiety.
I'm going to give you the diagnosisof generalized anxiety to sort of that
is reimbursable that is billable. Isthat unethical? It could be seen as
(23:07):
being unethical, But how do peoplebecause people want to use what they've been
paying for, but they don't realizefor therapists to get paid, we have
to give you a diagnosis that theinsurance company likes. That's billible. It
does it like a CMT code orsomething. The it's all ugly. But
what I'm trying to say when peoplecall me and say, Okay, look,
we can use your insurance, butyou're going to have to have a
(23:30):
diagnosis, that diagnosis is going tostay on your medical record, and the
consequences of that might be if you'regoing for life insurance or whatever, they're
going to see that. And ifpeople and I usually negotiate my fee,
I said, you know what,if we don't use insurance, I will
reduce my fee. It makes iteasier for me. I don't have to
deal with the insurance company. Idon't have to report to anybody. Because
even though hip hop is in place, I still have to make a diagnosis.
(23:52):
I still have to report that.It's confidential. However, if you
go for life insurance, it's notthe sessions. The information of the sessions
is confidential, but the diagnosism thatyou went for psycho therapy is not so.
But I do try. But whatI will tell to people who come
to me, and so I wantto see you, but I can't really
afford your fee in that situation.I try to negotiate a fee because I
(24:14):
love what I do, but Itry to put it in perspective. I
tried to say to them, WellI do say to them, is that
it is something that you will appreciate, not only today if you have a
good experience, but you will appreciatelater. How much do you spend on
alcohol? How much do you spendon going out? How much do you
spend whatever I said, you gohome and think about it, which one
(24:34):
is going to be more beneficial toyou? And you come back to me.
Because, yeah, the fee ispart of the service. We have
to charge a fee. But Iunderstand that availability and accessibility is limited sometimes
to people. But I do thinkpeople can do it if they just cut
out the other stuff. In Wisconsin, if we just start drinking less,
Yeah, I don't think that's Isee a lot of that going on.
(24:57):
I'm like, yeah, you needsome therapy, stop drinking and start paying
for psychotherapy. There is a way, I think, if we want to
make it happen, there is away because there are therapists who work on
sliding fee scales. You could actuallygo to training institutes, which I think
is great. Where I trained,the sliding fee scale was zero to fifty
you know, if you can't dependingon how much money you made, And
(25:18):
I think those I was a greatthing. I was in training. Everything
I did with the patient was underthe microscope, not only with my individual
supervisor, but with with I wasin group supervision. So you not only
have the benefit of this person who'sin training and a reduced fee, but
then you have five other experienced therapistswho are also in the session with you.
(25:40):
Abstractly, how would you find aplace like that? To go to?
Google? Training institution? Yeah,training institutes, and then you can
make an appointment literally zero deficiony I'venever heard of that. Maybe we should
find some ad links. Yeah,we should do in Milwaukee because I know
there are so many people that thereare people that I know that need the
(26:03):
support. Yeah, but but aren'tin a position where they're making a choice.
It would be like their rent orfood, you know, where they
couldn't do that where they truly needthat sliding scale, but maybe don't know
that that's even an opt available.It is available, and just check out
training institutes in your state, inyour area, and they there's those clinicians
(26:26):
have to be trained somewhere and weare required to get supervised hours in working
with people. And I think it'sa great way for people who don't who
can't afford the service, to getget the help that they need. So
that's dope. Yeah, Well,it's like I live downtown, so my
daughter went to get a haircut onit, but it's kind of similar,
and she went to there's a placedowntown she went to training institute. Oh
(26:49):
yeah, sure, her hair Idon't know what it was called. Yeah,
oh yeah, absolute, Yeah,a lot of that's yeah, oh
yeah, I get I get allof my things done downstairs. So it's
kind of the same thing. It'shairdressers and training. They have somebody supervising,
so they don't get it. Imean, doctors are you know they
(27:10):
all that stuff. Tendy's and theresidents is the same thing. So that
is available out there. People don'tknow it. I also want to say
that it's from being as a therapist. I have friends who have come to
me and have said, oopsie,we just drop something that's okay, Say
hey, will you see my sonor my daughter as a patient. And
(27:33):
I have had this experience happen andI have said, well, do you
know what that means if you ifwe choose to do this, I will
know everything about your life. Iwill. And also, well, no,
I'm not really going there. Heor she's not going for that purpose.
They're going there because they're suffering fromsome kind of anxiety. Say you
(27:56):
know if we use that as example, and I will say to them,
all, okay, but if Ihave to choose, I'm going to have
to choose the therapeutic relationship over ouracquaintanceship or whatever. You know, the
context of our relationship is. AndI've had that happen. W'ere years later
it's problematic and the person will callme and say, well, you know,
my son went to see you andit was all, you know,
(28:17):
making great changes and so forth.But he comes home and I ask him
about therapy and he doesn't want totalk about it, but he kind of
told me what you talked about.And I don't think he should be talking
about me, and I'm just like, Okay, you don't get the concept
of what happens in psychotherapy. Mostof us are sitting in that room talking
about a relationship, and it's alsoto do with our parents and what happens
(28:41):
in our parental relationships, what goeson in our household is all revealed and
talked about in the therapeutic office.But somehow people have this vision that when
the person goes with therapy, they'rejust talking about themselves. No, every
person sitting in a therapeutic room istalking about their relationships and the parental relationship.
So I knew everything and it wasvery uncomfortable for them, and I
(29:02):
had to stop talking to her becauseI this is privileged information. I don't
even want to know about this.But people think, oh, you know,
they're just going to talk about themselves. No, we talk about everybody.
There's somebody right now probably bitching aboutme, and there's that therapy session.
I'm just saying when my kids say, oh, Mom, I can't
believe you did that to me,Like, I'm just giving you food for
(29:22):
when you go for therapy one daywhen you bitch about me. If I
was a perfect something to talk aboutit exactly like if I was a perfect
parent, you have nothing to talkabout in therapy or how boring would that
be. I'm creating content for you. Everyone is talking about a relationship in
therapy. They're just not talking aboutthem. They're internal workings. They're talking
(29:45):
about a lot of other stuff thatinvolves other people. This is such an
interesting conversation and we are going tocontinue talking about this on the next episode.
Stay tuned, guys, and thankyou so much for joining us today.
Unfucked Your Life and Relationships was recordedat High five Studio in Milwaukee,
(30:06):
Wisconsin. Odd Fuck your Life,Odd, fuck your Life.
Welcome to What Fucked Your Life andRelationships with Anna Askley, psycho therapist and
author, and Ryan Rossman, recordingstudio owner and music producer. This is
a podcast like no other. Sitforward, listen in, and get ready
to get unfucked from the inside out. Odd fuck your Life, Odd fuck
(00:26):
your Life. Hey, guys,welcome to another session of Unfuck Your Life
and Relationships. Today we are backin studio. Ryan's here, al Amanda,
Good morning. How are you guys? Doing you live in the dream?
Fine? Fine to go there yetthey just have a little thing before.
(00:48):
We're not going to get into thatright now. What we're gonna talk
about today is psychotherapy. What ispsychotherapy was a psychotherapist. I will give
you an operational definition of it,and then we're going to dissect it and
talk about it. It is oneof those things that people are very curious
(01:10):
about and afraid of. Some loveit, some don't. We're going to
get into all of that, butI will give you a working definition to
help you out, guys. Itis a process that refers to a variety
of treatments that are designed to helppeople identify and change dysfunctional emotions, thoughts,
and behaviors and treatment, of course, is determined by the clinicians a
(01:34):
theoretical orientation. What does that mean? Everything we do in the office is
driven by some theory, some theorythat's been designed. The first one was
obviously from Freud. Well I sayobviously, but not obvious to most people.
With psycho analysis, and I'm suremost of you are familiar on some
level with that. You know,the person lying on the couch and the
(01:56):
person behind it. Freud came upwith that. He's the founding father of
talk therapy, Sigmund Freud, andhe is the one who first talked about
the unconscious, the subconscious, andthe conscious mind. He gave, he
has gave a lot, contributed alot fel to the field of psychotherapy,
even though some theories today move sofar away from him. That's okay,
(02:17):
you know, but medal theories arereally going to determine how what the experience
you're going to have with your therapistin the office, the modality that they
believe in. This cognitive behavioral therapy, which I'm sure most of you are
familiar with. You've heard about it, CBT, if you read some of
the stuff it is, you knowvery concrete in terms of what we do
with people in the office, clientsin the office. There is behavioral therapy,
(02:40):
There is the humanistic approach, thereis systems theory. So all of
this to say, there is morethan just talking and listening that's going on.
That is a foundation of it,but more than that, Because people
say, what really happens? Youguys just kind of sit there and listen.
I'm like, yeah, okay,you might have that impression. And
we do some of that, buta lot of what we do is based
(03:02):
on our theoretical framework, which ofcourse determines, as I said, treatment
and then diagnosis and all that clinicalstuff. I want to talk about today
the therapeutic relationship, what happens inthat office between the patient and the therapist,
but also what happens to the relationshipsaround that person who's in therapy.
(03:24):
But I also want to talk aboutmy perspective as a therapist. And I've
shared this before. I have saton both sides of the couch during my
training. I was required to gofor my own treatment. I remember thinking,
there's nothing wrong with me. Andyou know, if you're going to
read my book called un Fuck YourLife and Relationships available on Amazon and Simon
(03:44):
and Schuster. I do share vignettesof my own private sessions with doctor Frank
and I remember walking into his officeand saying, doctor Frank, I'm only
here for didactic purposes fancy term tosay learning experience, and he just kind
of looked at me like, allright, sit your ass down. He
didn't say it at all. Lasthe goes, oh, yeah, he
probably did, but he said,yeah, okay, sit down. Thank
(04:05):
you for telling me that. Ofcourse he was well aware of that because
he taught at the institute that Iwas going to. But then twice a
week six years later, I waslike, oh my god, I never
want to stop. And it justbecame this experience that I still hold on
today, at the age of fiftyfive. I started, I think in
(04:26):
my twenties, and I would havenever stopped. I had to move from
Montreal, and of course it's suchan intimate relationship that he could not be
replaced. He still can't be.He's retired now, and I remember calling
him a few times throughout the yearsasking for some advice and seeking his opinion
on just being a therapist myself,but also as his former patient. But
(04:48):
all of that to say it is. From my perspective as the patient,
it is one of the most intimaterelationships I've ever had with a man,
the most different relationship I've ever hadwith the men, the most unique,
I should say that's the proper word. But a relationship that terminates also in
a very interesting manner. Most relationships, if you think about it, they
(05:11):
usually end because there's a fight,somebody dies, somebody moves away, and
that might you know, the relationshipmight not continue. But the therapeutic relationship,
when you think about termination, it'sthe termination in and of itself from
therapy is a whole deal because peopledo become attached to their therapist. I
was very attached to him and tolet him go with such a difficult process.
(05:35):
So termination is very interesting process oftherapy. And as a therapist sitting
on the other side of the couch, I'm like, yeah, I help
clients do that all the time.But then people say, well, when
should termination happen? That's a wholeanother scenario. What I want to get
into later on that Amanda's going toshare her views and Ryan's gonna, you
know, because Ryan said he doesn'tneed therapy, but we're going to talk
(05:57):
about talk about people who say thosekinds of things, I absolutely need therapy.
He knows we all in here arevery supportive of the therapeutic process and
therapy itself. But let and youknow, I just want to talk about
before we listen to your stories,guys, the concept of change, because
every theory out there is trying toanswer one question, which is how does
(06:21):
change take place and how do webest help people change. Theories are trying
to answer those questions, and theway they answer them is different, and
depending on your orientation, that's whatyou're going to do in your office as
a clinician. So we just wantto, you know, stop that stereotype
out there that we just sit thereand listen, don't do anything. No,
(06:43):
everything that we do is driven bya theoretical framework and what we believe
about change and how change takes placeand psycho analysis. You know, people
papua and say blah blah blah,all these negative things about it. But
it was the first theoretical framework fortalk therapy, going back to Sigmund Freud,
the founding father of talk therapy.And although I was trained in psychoanalysis,
(07:06):
my theoretical orientation is an integrative approach, meaning I borrow from various schools
of thought because I believe no onetheory can answer the question of how do
people change, And that, ofcourse is executed differently depending on who is
sitting in front of me and wherethey are in their process of change.
(07:28):
And change is a huge word.It's threatening, people are scared of it.
They want it, but it's uncomfortable. But all of therapy is about
helping people create some kind of changein their life. And sometimes when people
come in and say, well,Anita, I used to feel much better
before I started to see you,So then I'm like, yeah, it's
all my fault. But change isuncomfortable and I need the answer to that.
(07:51):
I always say, well, ofcourse it's difficult, and your life
is going to I should well hitthe fan before it gets better. Because
walking around in the world out there, you can be in denial of all
this stuff. But in here,eventually I'm going to confront you with some
of your stuff that's going on,and that's going to be uncomfortable. Because
anytime we are seeking to make change, it's uncomfortable. We're sometimes very comfortable
(08:13):
in our misery, even though wedon't like it. It's comfortable, it's
familiar, it's a familiar place,so of course change creates a feeling of
oh my god, what's happening.And I always remind them listen, dude,
you came to see me. Ididn't come to see you. But
when people start to feel like that, it is really important for the therapist
(08:33):
to be able to draw them backinto the room because at that point,
you know, people start canceling appointments. I'm not coming, I'm sick.
This is going on, and that'shappened to me. I've been on the
canceling side. I did that tomy own psychoanalysts when things were getting difficult.
And then, of course I wasreally pissed with him because he's like,
well, if you don't come in, And I shared this story in
(08:54):
the book because it's very relevant towhat we're talking about today. If you
don't come in and eat, I'mgoing to charge you. I was so
fucking pissed. I'm like, I'ma student, I'm poor, I have
no money. I have a testto study for. That's why I'm canceling.
He said, this is like thesecond time you've canceled in a row.
And I, you know, I'mgoing to charge you, and I
might even fire you because you're notvery committed at this point. And I'm
(09:16):
totally committed to you, and I'mlike, oh my god, he doesn't
love me, just like my fatherdidn't love me. All that transference comes
into and then I will tell youthat was a turning point of my therapy
therapy process with him, the experience, it took on a totally different uh.
It went to a completely different hotlevel in terms of emotional intimacy with
(09:37):
him. I totally took the processmuch more seriously and I thought, Okay,
I need to invest in this moreemotionally. I'm kind of just playing
around. But it is when truetrust between him and I started. And
then I also learned and it's aninteresting position to be. And so I
was the patient, but at thesame time I was training to be a
(09:58):
therapist myself. So he said tome, you know, I charge you
because that's the ugly part of therapy, the business part. But it is
a business, and where I'm runninga business here, you keep canceling on
me. The other part of chargingyou is to help you understand, as
a student member, you came fordidactic purposes. Right now is that people
(10:18):
want to jump out of the processwhen it gets difficult, so they start
canceling. And what you have todo is you charge them, even if
you're uncomfortable with charging them as atherapist, because when it hits you in
the pocket, most people will havea reaction to it. Right when you
have to pay for something, you'regoing to look at it very differently,
(10:39):
especially if you are not present andyou're paying for a service that you're not
present for. So that's part ofgetting people back in to say, Okay,
I'm gonna have to pay for this, I might as well go in.
But the secondary part, which isreally important to the therapeutic process,
is you were trying to run awayfrom me. I don't want you to
run away from me because I wantyou to work through this issue. Out
(11:01):
there, you can run away allyou want, but in here, we've
been working for so long, andhe did, he said, we've been
working for like oops, sorry,I found bad, My bad. We've
been working together for almost a year. And we would have a pivotal point
talking about your dad and your feelingsof rejection and all of that, and
of course you want to run away. You tested me to see if I
(11:22):
cared about you or not, becauseI did say to him, I said,
Oh, you don't care about me, and that's why you want to
charge me. I thought you actuallycared about me, and if you cared
about me, you wouldn't charge me. He said, I'm charging you because
I care about you. If thatmakes any sense. What do you guys
think? No, absolutely, becauseyou have to. You have to not
only be like super committed to that, but then like the routine of everything
(11:45):
I think is important because you sortof build up what is it like,
momentum and all those things, andthen you stop and it's sort of like
you have to kind of reset alittle bit. And I also have to
like, yeah, this person isputting a lot of time. Although you're
going to them and paying them money, they're putting a lot of time and
brain power and sometimes it's outside ofthose sessions into what's happening, and you've
(12:05):
got to be committed to it.Accountability I think helps for anything, like
if you're trying to stick to ordo anything, when you're given a sense
of accountability, yeah, it canbe the make or break ingredient in success.
Yes, And also part of Isay to people, and when they
try to make me feel guilty becausenow I do it. I charge my
(12:26):
patients too, for all the reasonswe just talked about. Is I say,
listen, your doctor would charge you, your dentist would charge you.
Why is it that when it's inthis process, it's such a hurtful thing
that's happening to you because it issuch an intimate relationship and it is such
an emotional experience to go through.If you stick with it long enough and
you have a good connection with yourtherapist, you do feel like a sense
(12:50):
of wait a minute, if youcared for me, you would be so
empathic that I couldn't come to thissession or I'm feeling this when I can't
afford it. And then as aneffective therapist, it is trying to balance
the two so the client doesn't feelrejected or hurt by the fee, but
then you can explain why you hadto do what you had to do.
It's ugly, it's uncomfortable. I'vehad to do it, and you know,
(13:13):
I went through it with my owntherapist. But I understand it now
also from the side of a patient, but also from the side of a
therapist, and I think that's whyall therapists out there should have their own
therapists, because they need to learnhow to do all this stuff and they
need to experience the injury that sometimeswe feel being on the other side.
(13:33):
Sure, no, I think alsoto that point too, like I think
the most valuable thing that we haveis our time. Yeah, and you
also want to make sure that peopleare respecting and valuing your time as well.
Yeah, but sometimes therapists, becausewe're helpers, you know, and
I've done this, I've given waytoo much time and that thing hasn't been
(13:54):
paid for. But I remember,you know, I'll go over over the
hour, the fifty minutes or whatever, and I won't charge for it.
And my therapists used to say tome, so you don't value yourself.
You don't value your profession, andyou don't value your time, and you
don't value yourself. And I said, now, of course I do.
I was very defensive, but inthinking about it, I actually have an
issue with that and I really hadto work on that for me to even
(14:16):
increase my fees with my patients.I was like, oh my god,
this is so uncomfortable. And Ihad to really make sure that that didn't
come across to the patient because they'dpick up on my own anxiety. But
if that took years, that tookyears for because in the helping profession we
kind of struggle with some of thosethings. You know, we undervalue the
service, and that's from undervaluing ourselves. And you know, I'm an open
(14:37):
book, it's in the book.I suffered with that for years, not
valuing myself, and that came acrossin how much I charged people, because
my colleague would be like, whatare you charging? Are you kidding me?
Stop that because you're devaluing our service. That's oh I have Well,
I definitely have that problem. Idon't know the value of my time.
(14:58):
Yeah, you but so much timeand brain power into everyone and every everything.
Yeah, I have a really hardtime with that. Yeah, I
will say that, and I getit too. I mean I think we
all have that. Like I struggleeven setting my prices, you know,
at the studio and doing extra things, going above and beyond the same.
It's artists, you know, andeverybody is psychotherapy. People forget it is
(15:26):
a form of art, and we'rein the helping profession and sometimes it's you
know, I I have gotten thisin my mind, you know when I
was younger that I'm helping, Ineed to help, And yeah, they're
right, you know I shouldn't.I should give them more time, and
I shouldn't be charging so much theycan't afford it. But then I have
to put my business hat on.Say wait a minute. You invested a
lot of money a lot of timein your career, and you have to
(15:50):
value yourself and value the process,and money is a part of that.
It is a business. If Iwas, you know, a lot of
time. I have a question foryou thinking about that and like the weight
of taking in everyone's most difficult thingsin a concentrated hour. Yeah, Like
(16:10):
there's also I would imagine, likeis there decompressed time that you need or
like how do you how do youwalk away from it and not just be
burdened by all of that happiness that'sbrought to you in sessions. Yeah,
that's a very good question. AmandaFreud would say, well, I have
the fifteen minute hour and ten minutesI decompress and switch. But I don't
(16:32):
believe it to be true. Well, going back to my history, I
was always a therapist. I justdidn't know it. I was the middle
child, right, I had mymom coming to me, but my dad
should I born that way. Ihad my two brothers sandwich between them,
you know. So I was alwaysa therapist. I was always taking on
people's issues, but my own therapyhelped me to realize that and unfuck some
(16:53):
of that stuff. But getting backto how I deal with it today,
I like to, you know,from the practical part, go back to
back boom boom, boom boom,and I can do that, and that
it took years to kind of trainmyself to do that. But what I
have my own therapists. Every therapistshould have if they don't. But I
have my own therapists that I youknow, doctor Frank was really hard to
replace, but that somebody I checkin with with. Yeah, because it
(17:15):
is a lot. And I thinkas a therapist, I need to feel
balanced myself, because if I'm not, how do I help other people feel
balanced. We don't want to bethe wounded healer. There's a lot of
people out there who are practicing therapyand they themselves are so wounded that sometimes
it's ineffective. And we're human.Of course. I went through a recent
(17:36):
divorce and I had to take sometime off to myself to heal from that
so I could get back into myoffice. But that gave me a lot
more empathy for what I was doingwith people who are, you know,
going through a divorce process, allthe ups and downs of that. I
not only knew it theoretically and fromexperiential experience with other clients, but then
I knew about it personally myself,and I had to go through my own
(17:59):
healing process. But we need todecompress, and that's why we don't work
forty hours a week. Therapists generallyaverage twenty five to thirty. And I
know clients, I know clinicians whowork forty hours and I'm just like,
and they're burnt out, and I'mlike, how at what point are you
ineffective? And sometimes I you know, I could work a later hour,
but then I think, no,that person is going to get the worst
(18:22):
of me. And I don't wantanybody to get the worst of me.
But you know, that happens anyway, That's part of life. Like probably
go to the doctrine. If I'mthe last patient, I know he's probably
or she's probably really tired, andwe're done, and that's normal and natural,
but I really try not to.But I've had clients who have said,
oh, I used to see thistherapist and she literally would fall asleep
on me. So these are thenightmare stories. And I'll tell you this,
(18:44):
but not good. And she's stillshe stayed with that therapist for a
year. Guys, I want totell you something. If you don't like
your therapists or uncomfortable with them,first talk to them about it. Right.
I do think you should talk aboutit because maybe there's something else going
on that you're projecting onto the therapist, but things like falling asleep. So
I said to her, how whatI didn't even understand how that can happen?
(19:08):
Because I when I'm sitting with thepatient, they're looking right at me.
I'm looking right at them. It'sa very con I'm like, how
do you get away with that?How you in but this person's state.
It was twice that it happened thatthe therapist fell asleep. I'm like,
oh my gosh. So anyway,if that's happening to you, guys,
change therapist. That is totally wrong, inappropriate, should not happen. I
(19:33):
can't even imagine that happening to me. Not funny but not funny, right,
but people It's an example of howwhen people get used to somebody,
uh, they stay because the againgoing back to the concept of change,
change is harder. But I'm like, seriously, you're paying for this person.
They're falling asleep. You know.Yeah, change is hard, but
(19:53):
sometimes change is necessary, especially inthat situation itself. I want I don't
want ask you, guys, youropinion and the talk that goes on in
your friends circle, family about psychotherapywell or your experiences that you'll have.
I'll say this, I think myselfincluded. There's a lot of talk about
(20:17):
like, oh, therapy is great, everyone should be in therapy. But
I'm not currently in therapy, youknow, And we all say that,
right, but like are we doingit? And I think one of the
biggest barriers is cost, right,and a lot of insurance doesn't it.
I don't want to pay for it, which is just a huge barrier because
(20:38):
it's just as important as like thebrain and the foot and the hand and
everything else it is. And soI think that that stops a lot of
people. And I wonder, likein a societal way, like how do
you unfuck that? Like, howdo you unfuck access to mental health care
because yeah, because what they chargeis what they're worthy. Yeah, it's
(21:00):
it's not lower prices, y's accessand availability. And I want to say,
you know, because you're a creativeperson, so you're around very creative
people who say, yeah, everybodyshould be in psychotherapy. But I know
a lot of people who really pupoosepsychotherapy and they think everybody else but themselves
should be in therapy. And they'relike, oh, what is that anyway?
(21:21):
You guys just sit there and talkand what do you do? And
I want to say something. Ilisten to people say that around me,
and I always look at those people. They're the most fuck that people,
and I think, yeah, youare the ones who should be in therapy,
but everybody around you is in therapybecause that's what you're doing, that's
what you're exuding so much stress.So I hate I just don't like it
(21:41):
when people make those blanket statements aboutany profession, because especially about psychotherapy,
when they have no idea what thefuck goes on in a room and they're
afraid to be honest. When peoplesay that to me, I'm like,
Okay, it's because they're afraid ofchange. They're afraid of what might happen.
They're afraid of confrontation. But gettingback to your point about fees,
Yeah, the fees, and I'veyou know, I struggle with this all
(22:03):
the time, with establishing a feeand explaining to people. But now,
well I should correct myself. Iused to struggle with that. I don't
struggle with that anymore. I strugglewith insurance companies. They are the necessary
evil. And I'll tell you UnitedHealthcare, which I work with, they're
a great company, good to theirproviders and so forth. But some are
(22:23):
not and they will not pay.And people who don't know this, and
I explain this to people, theywill not pay. If you came to
see me and you say you haverelationship issues, they will not cover that.
And most policyholders don't know that.What they will cover is some generalize
anxiety. To sort everything that's inthat bible, the DSM Diagnostic Statistical Manual
(22:45):
Mental Disorders, and sometimes therapists areforced to say, well, are you
comfortable. You seem a little anxious, and you exhibit some symptoms of anxiety.
I'm going to give you the diagnosisof generalized anxiety to sort of that
is reimbursable that is billable. Isthat unethical? It could be seen as
(23:07):
being unethical, But how do peoplebecause people want to use what they've been
paying for, but they don't realizefor therapists to get paid, we have
to give you a diagnosis that theinsurance company likes. That's billible. It
does it like a CMT code orsomething. The it's all ugly. But
what I'm trying to say when peoplecall me and say, Okay, look,
we can use your insurance, butyou're going to have to have a
(23:30):
diagnosis, that diagnosis is going tostay on your medical record, and the
consequences of that might be if you'regoing for life insurance or whatever, they're
going to see that. And ifpeople and I usually negotiate my fee,
I said, you know what,if we don't use insurance, I will
reduce my fee. It makes iteasier for me. I don't have to
deal with the insurance company. Idon't have to report to anybody. Because
even though hip hop is in place, I still have to make a diagnosis.
(23:52):
I still have to report that.It's confidential. However, if you
go for life insurance, it's notthe sessions. The information of the sessions
is confidential, but the diagnosism thatyou went for psycho therapy is not so.
But I do try. But whatI will tell to people who come
to me, and so I wantto see you, but I can't really
afford your fee in that situation.I try to negotiate a fee because I
(24:14):
love what I do, but Itry to put it in perspective. I
tried to say to them, WellI do say to them, is that
it is something that you will appreciate, not only today if you have a
good experience, but you will appreciatelater. How much do you spend on
alcohol? How much do you spendon going out? How much do you
spend whatever I said, you gohome and think about it, which one
(24:34):
is going to be more beneficial toyou? And you come back to me.
Because, yeah, the fee ispart of the service. We have
to charge a fee. But Iunderstand that availability and accessibility is limited sometimes
to people. But I do thinkpeople can do it if they just cut
out the other stuff. In Wisconsin, if we just start drinking less,
Yeah, I don't think that's Isee a lot of that going on.
(24:57):
I'm like, yeah, you needsome therapy, stop drinking and start paying
for psychotherapy. There is a way, I think, if we want to
make it happen, there is away because there are therapists who work on
sliding fee scales. You could actuallygo to training institutes, which I think
is great. Where I trained,the sliding fee scale was zero to fifty
you know, if you can't dependingon how much money you made, And
(25:18):
I think those I was a greatthing. I was in training. Everything
I did with the patient was underthe microscope, not only with my individual
supervisor, but with with I wasin group supervision. So you not only
have the benefit of this person who'sin training and a reduced fee, but
then you have five other experienced therapistswho are also in the session with you.
(25:40):
Abstractly, how would you find aplace like that? To go to?
Google? Training institution? Yeah,training institutes, and then you can
make an appointment literally zero deficiony I'venever heard of that. Maybe we should
find some ad links. Yeah,we should do in Milwaukee because I know
there are so many people that thereare people that I know that need the
(26:03):
support. Yeah, but but aren'tin a position where they're making a choice.
It would be like their rent orfood, you know, where they
couldn't do that where they truly needthat sliding scale, but maybe don't know
that that's even an opt available.It is available, and just check out
training institutes in your state, inyour area, and they there's those clinicians
(26:26):
have to be trained somewhere and weare required to get supervised hours in working
with people. And I think it'sa great way for people who don't who
can't afford the service, to getget the help that they need. So
that's dope. Yeah, Well,it's like I live downtown, so my
daughter went to get a haircut onit, but it's kind of similar,
and she went to there's a placedowntown she went to training institute. Oh
(26:49):
yeah, sure, her hair Idon't know what it was called. Yeah,
oh yeah, absolute, Yeah,a lot of that's yeah, oh
yeah, I get I get allof my things done downstairs. So it's
kind of the same thing. It'shairdressers and training. They have somebody supervising,
so they don't get it. Imean, doctors are you know they
(27:10):
all that stuff. Tendy's and theresidents is the same thing. So that
is available out there. People don'tknow it. I also want to say
that it's from being as a therapist. I have friends who have come to
me and have said, oopsie,we just drop something that's okay, Say
hey, will you see my sonor my daughter as a patient. And
(27:33):
I have had this experience happen andI have said, well, do you
know what that means if you ifwe choose to do this, I will
know everything about your life. Iwill. And also, well, no,
I'm not really going there. Heor she's not going for that purpose.
They're going there because they're suffering fromsome kind of anxiety. Say you
(27:56):
know if we use that as example, and I will say to them,
all, okay, but if Ihave to choose, I'm going to have
to choose the therapeutic relationship over ouracquaintanceship or whatever. You know, the
context of our relationship is. AndI've had that happen. W'ere years later
it's problematic and the person will callme and say, well, you know,
my son went to see you andit was all, you know,
(28:17):
making great changes and so forth.But he comes home and I ask him
about therapy and he doesn't want totalk about it, but he kind of
told me what you talked about.And I don't think he should be talking
about me, and I'm just like, Okay, you don't get the concept
of what happens in psychotherapy. Mostof us are sitting in that room talking
about a relationship, and it's alsoto do with our parents and what happens
(28:41):
in our parental relationships, what goeson in our household is all revealed and
talked about in the therapeutic office.But somehow people have this vision that when
the person goes with therapy, they'rejust talking about themselves. No, every
person sitting in a therapeutic room istalking about their relationships and the parental relationship.
So I knew everything and it wasvery uncomfortable for them, and I
(29:02):
had to stop talking to her becauseI this is privileged information. I don't
even want to know about this.But people think, oh, you know,
they're just going to talk about themselves. No, we talk about everybody.
There's somebody right now probably bitching aboutme, and there's that therapy session.
I'm just saying when my kids say, oh, Mom, I can't
believe you did that to me,Like, I'm just giving you food for
(29:22):
when you go for therapy one daywhen you bitch about me. If I
was a perfect something to talk aboutit exactly like if I was a perfect
parent, you have nothing to talkabout in therapy or how boring would that
be. I'm creating content for you. Everyone is talking about a relationship in
therapy. They're just not talking aboutthem. They're internal workings. They're talking
(29:45):
about a lot of other stuff thatinvolves other people. This is such an
interesting conversation and we are going tocontinue talking about this on the next episode.
Stay tuned, guys, and thankyou so much for joining us today.
Unfucked Your Life and Relationships was recordedat High five Studio in Milwaukee,
(30:06):
Wisconsin. Odd Fuck your Life,Odd, fuck your Life.
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