February 1, 2023 • 41 mins
As a global organisation with 33,000 people across 40 countries, how do we make sure we continue to attract, retain and develop talent? How do we adapt to new employee expectations? How do we create a working environment that is inclusive, embraces diversity of thought and allows people to have long and rewarding careers?
In this episode, Rose Thomson, RELX chief human resources officer, shares with YS Chi her perspective on some of the big people themes that organisations need to think about to be successful, from the role of the manager to allowing people to have career changes.
Also in this episode, YS Chi speaks with Emili Budell-Rhodes, lead evangelist of engineering culture at LexisNexis Legal & Professional. YS explores what made her pivot from corporate responsibility to technology, how she feels about her career change, what enabled it and the satisfaction she derives from it.
This podcast is brought to you by RELX.
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Episode Transcript
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YS Chi (00:00):
The unique contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting RELX.com.
Rose Thomson (00:09):
You know what inspires us and what motivates
us at work, the more you havethat self awareness about what
you're good at and what you'reinterested in, the more you can
push yourself forward forprojects and new roles and to
really work on developing thoseskills and experiences.
YS Chi (00:41):
Hello, and welcome to series three of unique
contributions a RELX podcastwhere we bring you closer to
some of the most interestingpeople from around our business.
I'm YS Chi, and I'll beexploring with my guests some of
the biggest issues that matterto our society. In this series,
I also want to investigate theissue of trust. How can we build
(01:01):
trust in data and technology andhelp create a world that works
for everyone? Today, my firstguest is Rose Thomson. RELX's
Chief Human Resources Officer.
For years Rose has workedtirelessly to improve employee
experience. We at RELX arefortunate to have her
experience, wisdom and skillset. Rose has joined our team
during the unusual period of thepandemic lockdowns and border
(01:24):
closings. As you know, RELX is atruly global company with
colleagues scattered all overthe world, and Rose had the
added challenges of having toonboard herself remotely. And
she did this so professionally.
Welcome, Rose. Nice to have you.
Rose Thomson (01:42):
Thank you YS.
YS Chi (01:44):
Earlier this year, you wrote an insightful article on
the big people themes emergingthis year and beyond. You listed
them as Rise of the manager,Diversity to inclusion, purpose
to inspire, self driven growthand differently rewarding. Can
you tell us a little bit aboutthose key themes and why you
thought it was important toshare them now?
Rose Thomson (02:05):
I think YS, the whole nature of the labour
market, and expectations ofemployees and future employees
have fundamentally changed overthe last number of years. And I
think that the themes that Iraised in that article are the
things that really are going tomatter in the future in terms of
an employer being able toattract the very best talent and
(02:29):
keep that very best talent. Andif we don't focus on those
things, as an organisation, wewill do ourselves a disservice
and thereby doing our customersa disservice actually.
YS Chi (02:41):
Rose to start with, the concept of, you know, the rise
of the manager is relativelynew. Can you elaborate a little
bit on that, please?
Rose Thomson (02:52):
There's an old adage, I'm sure you're familiar
with that is employees don'tleave organisations, they leave
managers. And I think that'svery true, actually. And I see
managers playing a far moreimportant role and a very
different role to one that theyhave perhaps historically needed
to play. I think we're askingthem today to do things better,
(03:16):
faster, and cheaper. We'reasking them to attract and
retain and develop the very bestpeople. We're asking them to be
responsible, or at least awareof their team's needs, their
mental health, diversity andinclusion, the role is much
broader than just actually beinga taskmaster, and making sure
(03:40):
work gets done. And I think thatthat role, if we do that well,
can really impact the culture ofthe organisation, it can really
impact the engagement andmotivation of the team. And we
need to be able to equipmanagers, I think, with the
clarity in terms of what we'reasking them to do, and what
their role is as a manager, andthen give them the tools to be
(04:03):
able to do that as easily and asseamlessly as they possibly can.
YS Chi (04:07):
In the past, in my era, becoming a manager was something
one did by observing theirmanagers and learning from that.
Is there a more formal way toprepare these people to become
good managers?
Rose Thomson (04:22):
I think there is and that certainly something
that the HR function within RELXis working on right now,
actually, because that's auniversal need from each of our
divisions. And I think the firstthing that we really have to do
is, is articulate what is therole of the manager? What are we
actually asking managers to do?
And once we're able to do that,you know, how do we think about
the various stages in, I'll callit the employee lifecycle, where
(04:46):
a manager actually has to dosomething. And that could be
having to do a performancereview or having a performance
conversation or looking at payand making assessments on a
merit payment or a bonuspayment, for example. So I
think, you know, equipping themwith what are those moments
where a manager has to stepforward and actually own some
(05:08):
decisions in that way, but also,what are the tools, and how do
we make it much easier for themto understand what we're asking
them to do, and be able to dothat in a way that they can do
it at a time that suits them.
Using using systems thatautomate as much of that as
possible, I think there's a realopportunity for us to think
differently about how we doeducate our managers, how we
(05:32):
equip them, how we give them abetter experience, in terms of
being managers, and that wecontinue to actually focus on
the development of managers sothat in this day and age where
we are working quite differentlyto what we were doing pre
pandemic. That ability to sitaround and observe others isn't
necessarily the same anymore. SoI think we have to be more
(05:55):
innovative in our thinking. Andalso really think about what
does hybrid working mean for amanager? How do you, how do you
build a relationship with yourteam, if it is virtual? And so I
think the changing nature ofwork and the changing
expectations of employees, isalso impacting on the role of
the manager that, frankly, weneed to be able to get ahead of
(06:16):
that and equip them to be ableto do well.
YS Chi (06:19):
So rose, is there a way we can link between this other
point (06:24):
purpose to inspire, with the rise of manager concept?
Rose Thomson (06:29):
I think when I think about RELX, we hold such a
unique position, I think we area business that has a very clear
purpose, and one that reallyresonates with employees values.
And that's our secret sauce, Ithink, or one of our ingredients
of our secret sauce. And I thinkthe fact that we do have a clear
(06:50):
purpose should be able to helpour managers actually, and
whether that's about acompelling proposition for
candidates coming in, or acompelling proposition for
employees, in terms of whattheir career could look like, in
an organisation like ours, Ithink there's definitely a link
there. And I think the more wecan articulate that deep
(07:12):
connection to our customers interms of the value that we
contribute to our customers,that drives meaning in the work
that we do every day. And Ithink helping a manager,
regardless of where you are inthe business, and what role you
play, I think if you canarticulate "what value am I,
every day contributing to theorganisation that helps our
(07:34):
customers?", I think that drivesthat engagement level, and that
certainly is helpful formanagers, I think. It's not like
they're then having to reallysort of make that up or do
something different because thatpurpose isn't clear. So some
organisations without clearpurpose do that quite well. They
either throw out a lot of moneyor other benefits, free lunches,
(07:56):
and slides and all sorts ofthings. But I think what we
have, which sets us apart, andthat we should make more of
actually is that very clearpurpose that we have and the
contributions that we make tothe communities in which we live
and work every day.
YS Chi (08:12):
Yeah, it really helps that RELX's businesses have this
clear purpose for our customersand the society doesn't it?
Rose Thomson (08:21):
It does, yes.
YS Chi (08:23):
Let me switch topic a little bit to career
progression. You propose that welook at our career progression
less, like climbing a verticalladder and more like rock
climbing. What do you mean bythis? And is, is RELX good at
letting its employees make theseso called nonlinear moves.
Rose Thomson (08:42):
So I always think about careers as a rock climbing
wall. So there are handholds andfootholds. You rarely get to the
top by going verticallystraight. And I think from a
career perspective, each ofthose handholds and footholds
are different experiences andskills that you get along the
(09:03):
way. And sometimes, it makes alot of sense to go sideways and
take a handhold that might, youknow, hanging out there on the
right, for example, to get adifferent skill and experience
that will actually help you moveforward in your career. And I,
really think that whole oldfashioned view of career
progression being a verticalpole - the vertical greasy pole,
(09:25):
which is much easier to go downthan it is to go up. I think
consolidating our skills, reallythinking about what skills and
experiences that we can developand taking the time to actually
develop them well, so thinkingabout how long you need to be in
a particular role to developthat skill and master that
skill. And for me, your careeris something that each of us
(09:50):
individually own, and it is acollection of skills and
experiences built over time thatactually open those career
opportunities and those choicesthat we make, and the way we
think about where we want to go,what we're interested in as
well, you know, what inspires usand what motivates us at work.
The more you have that selfawareness about what you're good
(10:11):
at and what you're interestedin, the more you can push
yourself forward for projectsand new roles and to really work
on developing those skills andexperiences. And I see a trend
within RELX of thatunderstanding and that approach
to careers, which I think isterrific, because one thing that
I really love is you're seeingpeople own their careers. You
(10:34):
know, a lot of people sit backand wait for the organisation or
their manager to say, "Oh,here's a role here, go do that",
rather than actually taking thaton for themselves. You know, our
job is, as HR within theorganisation is to, I guess,
plant the flag poles to say, youknow, here are what your career
paths could look like. But it'sup to each and every individual
(10:54):
to really develop those skillsand experiences, so that they
can follow those if they if theychoose to. So I think very
broadly, in relation to skillsand experiences and careers, and
we have a lot of opportunity todo some more in this space, you
know, we're starting to see alot more internal mobility
across the group. But if wereally want to unleash the
(11:16):
potential of our people in ourorganisation, we're going to be
focusing on that a lot more. Andwhen I look at RELX and the
breadth of our our divisions thetype of work that we do, there's
no reason that if you join RELX,regardless of where you join
RELX that you couldn'texperience 20 years of diverse
career opportunities. And ourinvestment in our people is
(11:39):
really important in terms ofensuring that we retain the very
best talent, but also reducingour reliance on external hiring.
The more that we open up rolesacross the organisation, the
more that we think about whatcareers could look like, as I
say, plant those flags so thatpeople are clear as to where
they could go and how they dogrow. Everyone actually
(12:00):
benefits, there is no downsideto doing that. Well, and that's
very much part of what I hope mylegacy will be for RELX as well.
YS Chi (12:08):
Rose, not having a linear career progression, kind
of makes me think about thispersonal choices that you
mentioned that we make, right,whether that is about someone
deciding to have a family, orthat there is something else
they need to pursue, or to takecare of elderly, you know,
(12:29):
people in their family.
Sometimes we need to take alittle step back, for personal
reasons. Does this help dealwith these ups and downs of our
personal lives and matching itto our professional growth?
Rose Thomson (12:46):
I think YS, we can as individuals, we can never
separate our work life from ourlife. It is it is a component of
who we are. And I'm a firmbeliever in, you don't you don't
march into an office, eithermetaphorically these days, or
physically as it used to be,perhaps, and turn those things
(13:07):
off. And I think we all havethings that go on in our lives
that need attention outside ofwork from time to time. And our
opportunity, I think is to makethe space for people to be able
to be where they need to be andsupport who they need to support
at a given time, withoutthinking that writes them off,
(13:29):
and that their career has tocome to a halt. Or that they're
not the best person for aparticular job at that point in
time. And I do see that I thinkthe attitudes changing. So for
example, I think these days,I've seen it myself that where
women who who are pregnant stillare offered jobs, even though
(13:52):
they're going to go off onmaternity leave for a bit. And
you know, when I was young,frankly, that just didn't
happen. So I do see somedefinite positive steps forward
like that. But I think that alsocomes down to managers and the
empathy that we we also need toshow for our people as
individuals, and we stillobviously have commercial
(14:14):
deliverables that we need todeliver on behalf of the
organisation. But I think we'rehaving to think about talent
more deeply...
YS Chi (14:21):
and probably more as a team, because if, you know, the
rest of the team steps up, whileone person is, you know,
withdrawing a little bit ortoning down a little bit. I'm
probably using the wrong wordshere, that there will be other
times when others will step upfor them. And if we work as a
team, then I think we can carryall of the the ups and downs
(14:45):
together.
Rose Thomson (14:46):
Yes, I think that's quite right, actually.
And, and that comes with havingthat psychological safety of
being able to tell people what'sgoing on in your life.
YS Chi (14:57):
Oh, that's a great point.
Rose Thomson (14:59):
And that you know you feel safe, to be able to
say, actually, I've got thisthing going on at home. And I
need to, you know, whatever itis I need to be there. And this
is how it's going to impact mefor the next x period. And if we
all recognise that actually, weall have lives like that, I
think you're quite right peopledo step up and cover, you know,
(15:20):
same as if you are ill, and youneed to take some time out, it
doesn't, doesn't stop you beinga terrific person and a great
contributor, right. And as Isay, these days, holding on to
our best talent, making surethat we're being very human in
the way that we manage and leadI think, is more important than
ever.
YS Chi (15:39):
Another important point is inclusion, inclusion to
achieve diversity, which RELXtakes very seriously. When we
look at the statistics, RELX isan industry leader in this
space, but of course, we canalways do better. Can tell us
how you look at this, and how weshould improve.
Rose Thomson (15:58):
So I think about inclusion and diversity, well,
obviously, they're veryinterlinked. For me, inclusion
is you feel heard, you feel youcan contribute equally to those
around you, you can accessopportunity equally, regardless
of the characteristics that youhave. Now, diversity, to me is
(16:20):
the measurement of thosecharacteristics. And today,
that's how we measure diversity.
The general approach todiversity is let's, let's
measure people'scharacteristics. I think the
next iteration of diversity isvery much around diversity of
thought. So by that, I mean, howdo we get around the table and
think about what the needs ofour customers are, and have a
(16:41):
whole variety of differentpeople with different life
experiences different, differentgeographic experiences,
different educationalexperiences, to contribute to
solving those problems for ourcustomers, and to me that is
diversity of thought, which Ithink moves us away from sort of
(17:02):
that, that more obviouscharacteristics, measurement.
And and brings us to a levelwhere that diversity is really
helping solve things for our forour customers. Now, I don't know
how we measure that just yet.
But I think I think we have realambitions around increasing our
(17:26):
diversity and our inclusion. Andwhile measuring numbers of
people with variouscharacteristics is, is a really
good way today, assessingprogress. I don't think it
necessarily reflects whatorganisations have achieved in
terms of diversity andinclusion. If you, if you buy
into diversity of thoughtactually is where we need to get
YS Chi (17:48):
Well, we have been trained for so long to do what
to.
has always worked. So if whathas always worked has been more
uniformity, then changing thatto diversity is a significant
transformation. And, and it ischallenging. I mean, I recall
(18:11):
starting my career, where it wasall about uniformity, right?
What has been proven, you keepdoing it, right? So if male,
white person with this degreeand this experience has done
this well, then you go out thereand hire five more of those. And
we don't ever give thoughts, orwe never did give thoughts to
(18:33):
hiring someone with differentpath. Today, of course, that has
now finally changed. And we aremore bold about bringing on
people with diversity ofthoughts, as you say, Now, is
there is there a good way tomeasure diversity of thoughts?
Rose Thomson (18:49):
I think it's quite embryonic. You could look at
people's different experiencesand say, well, let's measure
those. So for example, you know,those with college education and
those without college education.
The way I look at it, YS youknow, we could have all sorts of
diversity in terms of ethnicity,for example, but if everyone, if
everyone goes to an Ivy Leagueschool, we're not necessarily
(19:12):
going to get a diversity ofthought. Whereas if we have that
ethnic diversity, we havedifferent educational diversity,
we have different globalexperiences. So for example, you
know, I grew up in Australia, Iwent to an Australian
university, the way I think andthe way, the way you think is
actually different, because wehave different experiences, and
(19:32):
so we can bounce off each other.
And we have enriched discussionsand constructive challenge
because we come with a differentviewpoint. And I think that's
what it is. I'm not sure, we canmeasure it now. But I'd like to
think, you know, in 10 yearstime, we're a little more
sophisticated about that,because that's the journey we've
been on with diversity. It's thejourney that we've been on with
(19:54):
ESG. I am hopeful that actuallywe can be, as I say more
sophisticated about how wemeasure moving forward.
YS Chi (20:02):
Right. It's going to be a challenge for all of us to
figure out whether we canmeasure properly the progress
that we want to make. Now, willsome of these, achieving these
metrics, will lead allow us torecruit, for example, more women
in tech?
Rose Thomson (20:18):
I think the reality is that there just
aren't enough women in tech.
YS Chi (20:22):
So the pipeline is rather dry?
Unknown (20:25):
The pipeline coming educated in technology is, is
dry. And so we do need to thinkvery differently about women in
tech. And it's certainly has avery low representation of
women, however, it is growing.
So it is commonly seen now as agreat career destination for
young women, but that will taketime for them to grow and to
develop and to move intoleadership positions within
(20:48):
technology. What I think we needto do is think about far more
innovative ways of getting womeninto technology. So I think
about adjacency of skills. Sowhat is it that we're asking for
systems engineers to be doing?
How do we think how do wearticulate what those skills
are? And then how do we thinkmore broadly about where else
(21:10):
could we get those skills fromwithin RELX? So if we have, you
know, a trusted high performer,young woman, who is
demonstrating that they, youknow, are analytical, problem
solvers, and so on? Well, whywouldn't we give them a chance
and actually move them intotechnology and say, actually,
we're going to invest in you,we're going to invest, so that
(21:32):
you get the technical skillsthat you need, but actually,
from a baseline perspective,you've got the right baseline
of, of skills. So for me, I seethat as a real opportunity for
us to think very differentlyabout how we move women into
technology. I think we need tochange the language, so the way
we talk about jobs intechnology, the way we advertise
(21:52):
for jobs in technology.
Recently, we're starting to usetechnology to really assess the
language we use in our roleprofiles. And in our job ads,
we're also starting to challengemanagers, in terms of what are
you really looking for, becausethat unicorn, that you're
saying, you have to have andthat you've spent a year
interviewing for isn't there? Sohow do we think differently
(22:14):
about getting getting differentskills into technology, and then
investing in actually developingthe real technical elements of
what those roles require?
YS Chi (22:27):
Personally, I'm a little bit encouraged by some
individual cases, I have seen atRELX now, over the past five or
so years, where female workerswho do not have any either
technical background or computerscience background, have pivoted
themselves very boldly andcourageously into learning, a
(22:50):
couple of them by entering into,in house training programmes, to
help learn how to code forexample, and have made a
dramatic change in their careerpath as women in tech. So I'm
encouraged that we are seeingthis as an opportunity also to
identify people internally, whomay not have had a formal
(23:13):
education in this way. But likeyou said, have the raw talent or
the interest, more importantly,to learn something new and make
a change. So I hope that we domore of this.
Rose Thomson (23:27):
I think we've got some terrific examples of
particularly women who've beenable to pivot, I know, we have a
number of women with Englishdegrees, for example, who've
gone on to become greattechnologists, you know, we
really have an opportunity, Ithink, to profile them to talk
about their decision making andthe opportunities that they've
(23:48):
had and how they feel abouttheir career change and what
opportunities it's brought andthe satisfaction that they've
had in doing that. Because Ithink the more we can encourage
people to think more broadlyabout their careers going back
to the climbing wall, right. Youdon't have to stay in the one
swim lane. I think in anorganisation like RELX. It's a
perfect opportunity to sayactually, I'm ready to do
(24:11):
something different. I want totry something different. Give me
a go. And, you know, I thinkthat's terrific.
YS Chi (24:16):
Well, Rose, we could talk forever on this subject,
because you know, we are bothvery passionate about talent,
and how that really is thedifferentiator for RELX. Thank
you so much for spending timewith us today. Thank you so much
for all the initiatives you'retaking with your colleagues in
Human Resource. And we lookforward to having you again here
(24:39):
to tell us the progress we'vemade in the future.
Rose Thomson (24:43):
Thank you YS.
YS Chi (24:50):
My next guest is Emili Budell-Rhodes. She's the lead
evangelist of engineeringculture at LexisNexis Legal and
Professional. Her vital workpromotes and enhances the best
and the most sustainablepractices in a technology
focused company like LexisNexisL&P. She's also a great example
of what can be achieved when oneinvests in women in technology.
(25:14):
Emily, welcome.
Emili Budell-Rhodes (25:16):
Thanks so much for having me.
YS Chi (25:17):
It's very nice to connect with you, again, since
we haven't seen each other in awhile. You began your RELX
career journey in our CorporateResponsibility team. So to say
that you've had a successfulcareer pivot is to put it very
lightly. Can you tell theaudience a little bit about your
journey so far? And explain yourrole with this new title that is
(25:41):
rather unique?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (25:42):
Yeah, absolutely. With pleasure. So my
title now at LexisNexis Legaland Professional, as you said,
is lead evangelist forengineering culture. As you
said, I was part of CorporateResponsibility beforehand,
joined LexisNexis in March lastyear. And so, in a nutshell, I'm
(26:05):
a member of the globalengineering team. And the role
is about creating positivechange, both in terms of our
practices and processes and waysof working, as well as our
culture across teams and thetechnology organisation at
LexisNexis as a whole. And so abig part of that role revolves
(26:27):
around community building. We'rea rather complex global
organisation. And so how can wecome together across tech as a
community of problem solvers andshare with each other and learn
from each other, in terms ofindustry leading best practices
(26:48):
that are also rooted in ourorganisational values? That
includes responsible AI, forexample.
YS Chi (26:56):
So is there a way to look at how you simplify all
this? Or is that your role to beconducter in the middle?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (27:06):
I like to think of myself more as a bridge
than a conductor. And a lot ofit is about connecting the dots.
So it's, it's both thinkingabout systems, and processes and
things like that, but but alsoabout people. So how can we work
together better? How can we havea shared joint narrative and
(27:29):
mission? How can we createclarity around certain things?
So So simplification is, is abig aspect of it, but it's also
about capturing context, andsometimes embracing the fact
that things can be nuanced,depending on the context that
you're in.
YS Chi (27:48):
Earlier, I talked to rose about the importance of
recruiting and inspiring womenin tech. As someone whose career
has already been inspiring, doyou think that putting such an
emphasis on supporting women intech is necessary? And to be
more specific? Do you think youcan do this role particularly
well, because you are a woman?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (28:11):
Who that second part is a tricky one. Let
me let me try and answer that.
So yes, first of all I do. Ithink putting an emphasis on
supporting women in tech isnecessary. We have a gender
imbalance in technology, and Ibelieve that unless we continue
(28:32):
to do something about it, it'snot going to fix itself. When
you start looking at levels ofrepresentation of women, or
people who identify as women intech, you quickly realise that
the issue is complex, becausethere's so much variation
depending on levels of senioritytypes of roles, disciplines,
(28:54):
geography, even which part ofthe business you're looking at.
So I don't think there's there'sever going to be a magic silver
bullet here. But that beingsaid, something that I believe
should always be the startingpoint, is being aware and being
intentional, and then figuringout the best way forward for a
(29:15):
particular context. But maybe,let's also step back a minute
here and talk about why I thinkwe should care about gender
balance in the first place. Inparticular, when it comes to
technology, and maybe that willalso answer the second half of
your question about me being awoman and me being in that role.
(29:37):
And so, for me, personally, Imean that that comes down to one
major thing. Technology is builtby people for people. That
sounds like a pretty obviousthing to say. But let's let's
unpack that a little bit. Often,people equate the role of a
(29:57):
technologist to somebody whowrites code. And that's kind of
like equating the role of acarpenter to somebody who uses a
hammer. Coding is a tool. Andit's a method, right? It's an
activity. But what technologistsreally do is solve problems for
people. And that means they'llconsider the context of that
(30:22):
problem, and the implications ofthe solution that they're
proposing, in light of their ownpersonal understanding,
including, you know, theirworldview and their life
experience. So technologistsconstantly make choices that are
shaped by their own biases, andwe all have biases, that's
(30:43):
literally how the human brainworks, to optimise information,
so we all do it. And so whenthose choices are being made by
a group of people with verysimilar backgrounds and life
experiences, they miss out onconsidering maybe how to solve a
problem from a variety ofangles. And that's, of course,
not just about gender. Butgender is a big factor. There
(31:07):
are a number of societal andother systemic factors that will
shape different pathways andexperiences depending on your
gender. And as technologypervades pretty much every
single aspect of our lives,nowadays, the positive impacts
of having more gender balance inthe teams creating it can be
(31:28):
really significant. The otherthing, and I suppose that
actually feels a lot morepersonal here, is that when
you're feeling like you're theodd one out, or the only one in
the room, that can be reallychallenging and can feel
intimidating. When I firststarted my role, I was in a
(31:50):
couple of forums where I was theonly woman in the room. And
actually one of the youngestpeople, maybe not, maybe even
the youngest person there. Andat first, I just kind of put my
head down, even when I felt likeI had something to say I didn't
really put my hand up because Iwas intimidated. And when you're
working in an organisation whereinnovation is central to
(32:13):
business success, that's not agood thing. So as I said,
there's no silver bullet. Butyou know, and so while
establishing more balance ingender diversity can be
challenging, you know, sometimesthere are difficulties in
recruiting talent, etc. It'sreally crucial to create
(32:34):
inclusive psychologically safespaces where everyone feels,
they can speak up, and they'repart of the team. And that can
be as simple as reflecting onhow you've run a meeting, for
example, you know, who are youactually inviting? You know,
who's, who's there? Who's in theroom? Does everyone understand
what the meeting is about? Andwhat's expected of them? And are
(32:58):
you giving everyone a fairchance to contribute? Or are
really only listening to theloudest voices? So women are
constantly told to lean in andgrab a seat at the table? And
frankly, that can be exhaustingsometimes. So think it's also
about offering a seat.
YS Chi (33:19):
And when they're invited to the table, how do you
encourage them to raise theirhand, even though it is, as you
said, quite intimidating tospeak up when you're the odd
person in the room?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (33:30):
So I mean, there's a couple of ways to do
that. I think when you invitesomebody to something, you
should tell them why and whytheir their contribution is
valued. Because that helps withconfidence. And then, as and
when I'm actively facilitating ameeting, or have that level of
input, I can also proactivelyreach out and call somebody out,
(33:55):
for example, and say, "Hey, Iknow you're doing great work in
X, do you want to tell us alittle bit about this?" So it
doesn't have to be verycomplicated. It's just about
being aware.
YS Chi (34:05):
Right? That's great. You know, this is not how you
envisioned when you firstthought about making a pivot to
your career, some three yearsago, I think, how did that
evolve?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (34:18):
Oh, it was a journey. And a bit of a
challenging one, because thatpivot was so significant into a
completely new domain, and Istill have a huge amount to
learn. So the way I got started,and maybe you'll remember this,
YS? It was because I developed akeen interest and passion for
(34:42):
Responsible AI, in terms of howtechnology impacts people's
lives. And I wanted to find away to help build on what we're
doing in that space across RELX.
That in itself required a fairbit of patience and resilience
on my part because it's alwayshard to get a new initiative
started in a large organisation.
(35:05):
And I'm also I'm not a datascientist or a developer. I have
a background in social sciences,I spent a number of years in the
nonprofit sector. And then Ijoined the Corporate
Responsibility team. So I didn'thave exactly like the profile
you'd expect from somebodyworking on AI or technology
related questions. Eventually, Iwas successful. So we now have
(35:29):
publicly facing Responsible AIprinciples that I'm the lead
author of, and we have adedicated work stream in each of
our business areas as a directresult of that work, which is
pretty cool. There were a numberof things that helped me there
that I wanted to maybe dive intoif, if that's helpful? So the
(35:52):
first thing really was abouthaving a concrete project or
value proposition. And that wasreally the way in for me,
because I had identified an areawhere I was offering to add
value to the business in thetech space. So I had clarity
around what impact I wanted tohave, and why I wanted to work
(36:16):
in technology in the firstplace. So you know, finding your
why, gives you also the drive topersevere, even when it's not
always super easy to get ahead.
And then a couple more things.
So one was actually justspeaking to variety of
colleagues and getting feedbackwas another thing. And that's
(36:37):
something that's great aboutRELX, people always open to
having a conversation, sharingtheir expertise connecting you
to others. So networking, andusing that networking as a
learning opportunity was alsoreally big in that effort. And
as I was then finally doing theproject, I became a mentee of
our women in tech mentoringprogramme. And that was really a
(37:01):
huge help, because it provided adedicated space to discuss ideas
and challenges with a mentor whowas able to help me progress
them, and give me theperspective that I was sometimes
lacking. It was also a safespace where I could you know,
celebrate successes, ventfrustrations, that happened a
(37:21):
few times as well and actuallybe okay about having a bad day.
YS Chi (37:25):
So you think that mentoring is a crucial part in
the success of recruiting andretaining women in technology?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (37:33):
I do. I do.
I wouldn't say it's the onlything because then we also have
sponsorship as well, that isreally impactful. But just on
the mentoring piece, I thinkit's crucial to make time and
create a space to reflect onwhat you're doing and where
you're headed, both with yourcurrent role as well as your
career as a whole. And a mentorisn't there to give you all the
(37:57):
answers. It's more aboutoffering perspective. And that's
a really precious thing,particularly, you know, when
everyone's busy running from onething to the next. And actually,
I value mentoring so much thatI've become a mentor myself now.
And some things that we don'talways think about in terms of
mentoring is that it's a two waystreet. So I'm always learning a
(38:17):
lot from those mentoringconversations, I'm having my
assumptions challenged. Andthat's a very healthy thing.
YS Chi (38:26):
What advice would you give people in terms of
identifying a mentor?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (38:31):
Well, there's different ways of doing
it. I mean, if there areformalised programmes within the
company, then certainly, youknow, speak maybe to the HR team
or or look on your companyintranet and kind of track those
down. I think a lot of companieshave them. At RELX, we have a
number of different ones aswell. And then I think, you
(38:55):
know, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be formalised. I've had
a number of different mentors.
They're just people that Ihugely respect and want to learn
from, and I've just reached outto them, and actually just asked
them whether they'd be willing.
YS Chi (39:09):
They responded very positively?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (39:12):
Absolutely.
I mean, it's a hugely flatteringthing to be asked, it's kind of
nice.
YS Chi (39:17):
Well, but as you said, it's a two way street. So for
them, it is also a learningopportunity. 100% right. So this
is just one of the many pivotsyou're gonna make, I hope that
you will look for several moreahead of you. Thank you so much
for joining Emili. Emili is athird person I know who has come
(39:42):
from social science background,and has made a significant pivot
to technology. And I think that,as Emili said, that pivot is not
as difficult as you might fear,if you put your mind into a
specific direction you want togo and find people to support
(40:04):
you along the way. Emili, thankyou for being part of this
podcast today.
Emili Budell-Rhodes (40:09):
Thanks for inviting me YS it was a pleasure
speaking with you.
YS Chi (40:13):
Oh, and we're very proud of what you're doing. Thank you.
Thank you to our listeners fortuning in. Don't forget to hit
subscribe on your podcast app toget new episodes as soon as
they're released. And onceagain, thank you for listening.
The unique contributions podcast is brought to you by
RELX. Find out more about us byvisiting RELX.com.
Rose Thomson (00:09):
You know what inspires us and what motivates
us at work, the more you havethat self awareness about what
you're good at and what you'reinterested in, the more you can
push yourself forward forprojects and new roles and to
really work on developing thoseskills and experiences.
YS Chi (00:41):
Hello, and welcome to series three of unique
contributions a RELX podcastwhere we bring you closer to
some of the most interestingpeople from around our business.
I'm YS Chi, and I'll beexploring with my guests some of
the biggest issues that matterto our society. In this series,
I also want to investigate theissue of trust. How can we build
(01:01):
trust in data and technology andhelp create a world that works
for everyone? Today, my firstguest is Rose Thomson. RELX's
Chief Human Resources Officer.
For years Rose has workedtirelessly to improve employee
experience. We at RELX arefortunate to have her
experience, wisdom and skillset. Rose has joined our team
during the unusual period of thepandemic lockdowns and border
(01:24):
closings. As you know, RELX is atruly global company with
colleagues scattered all overthe world, and Rose had the
added challenges of having toonboard herself remotely. And
she did this so professionally.
Welcome, Rose. Nice to have you.
Rose Thomson (01:42):
Thank you YS.
YS Chi (01:44):
Earlier this year, you wrote an insightful article on
the big people themes emergingthis year and beyond. You listed
them as Rise of the manager,Diversity to inclusion, purpose
to inspire, self driven growthand differently rewarding. Can
you tell us a little bit aboutthose key themes and why you
thought it was important toshare them now?
Rose Thomson (02:05):
I think YS, the whole nature of the labour
market, and expectations ofemployees and future employees
have fundamentally changed overthe last number of years. And I
think that the themes that Iraised in that article are the
things that really are going tomatter in the future in terms of
an employer being able toattract the very best talent and
(02:29):
keep that very best talent. Andif we don't focus on those
things, as an organisation, wewill do ourselves a disservice
and thereby doing our customersa disservice actually.
YS Chi (02:41):
Rose to start with, the concept of, you know, the rise
of the manager is relativelynew. Can you elaborate a little
bit on that, please?
Rose Thomson (02:52):
There's an old adage, I'm sure you're familiar
with that is employees don'tleave organisations, they leave
managers. And I think that'svery true, actually. And I see
managers playing a far moreimportant role and a very
different role to one that theyhave perhaps historically needed
to play. I think we're askingthem today to do things better,
(03:16):
faster, and cheaper. We'reasking them to attract and
retain and develop the very bestpeople. We're asking them to be
responsible, or at least awareof their team's needs, their
mental health, diversity andinclusion, the role is much
broader than just actually beinga taskmaster, and making sure
(03:40):
work gets done. And I think thatthat role, if we do that well,
can really impact the culture ofthe organisation, it can really
impact the engagement andmotivation of the team. And we
need to be able to equipmanagers, I think, with the
clarity in terms of what we'reasking them to do, and what
their role is as a manager, andthen give them the tools to be
(04:03):
able to do that as easily and asseamlessly as they possibly can.
YS Chi (04:07):
In the past, in my era, becoming a manager was something
one did by observing theirmanagers and learning from that.
Is there a more formal way toprepare these people to become
good managers?
Rose Thomson (04:22):
I think there is and that certainly something
that the HR function within RELXis working on right now,
actually, because that's auniversal need from each of our
divisions. And I think the firstthing that we really have to do
is, is articulate what is therole of the manager? What are we
actually asking managers to do?
And once we're able to do that,you know, how do we think about
the various stages in, I'll callit the employee lifecycle, where
(04:46):
a manager actually has to dosomething. And that could be
having to do a performancereview or having a performance
conversation or looking at payand making assessments on a
merit payment or a bonuspayment, for example. So I
think, you know, equipping themwith what are those moments
where a manager has to stepforward and actually own some
(05:08):
decisions in that way, but also,what are the tools, and how do
we make it much easier for themto understand what we're asking
them to do, and be able to dothat in a way that they can do
it at a time that suits them.
Using using systems thatautomate as much of that as
possible, I think there's a realopportunity for us to think
differently about how we doeducate our managers, how we
(05:32):
equip them, how we give them abetter experience, in terms of
being managers, and that wecontinue to actually focus on
the development of managers sothat in this day and age where
we are working quite differentlyto what we were doing pre
pandemic. That ability to sitaround and observe others isn't
necessarily the same anymore. SoI think we have to be more
(05:55):
innovative in our thinking. Andalso really think about what
does hybrid working mean for amanager? How do you, how do you
build a relationship with yourteam, if it is virtual? And so I
think the changing nature ofwork and the changing
expectations of employees, isalso impacting on the role of
the manager that, frankly, weneed to be able to get ahead of
(06:16):
that and equip them to be ableto do well.
YS Chi (06:19):
So rose, is there a way we can link between this other
point (06:24):
purpose to inspire, with the rise of manager concept?
Rose Thomson (06:29):
I think when I think about RELX, we hold such a
unique position, I think we area business that has a very clear
purpose, and one that reallyresonates with employees values.
And that's our secret sauce, Ithink, or one of our ingredients
of our secret sauce. And I thinkthe fact that we do have a clear
(06:50):
purpose should be able to helpour managers actually, and
whether that's about acompelling proposition for
candidates coming in, or acompelling proposition for
employees, in terms of whattheir career could look like, in
an organisation like ours, Ithink there's definitely a link
there. And I think the more wecan articulate that deep
(07:12):
connection to our customers interms of the value that we
contribute to our customers,that drives meaning in the work
that we do every day. And Ithink helping a manager,
regardless of where you are inthe business, and what role you
play, I think if you canarticulate "what value am I,
every day contributing to theorganisation that helps our
(07:34):
customers?", I think that drivesthat engagement level, and that
certainly is helpful formanagers, I think. It's not like
they're then having to reallysort of make that up or do
something different because thatpurpose isn't clear. So some
organisations without clearpurpose do that quite well. They
either throw out a lot of moneyor other benefits, free lunches,
(07:56):
and slides and all sorts ofthings. But I think what we
have, which sets us apart, andthat we should make more of
actually is that very clearpurpose that we have and the
contributions that we make tothe communities in which we live
and work every day.
YS Chi (08:12):
Yeah, it really helps that RELX's businesses have this
clear purpose for our customersand the society doesn't it?
Rose Thomson (08:21):
It does, yes.
YS Chi (08:23):
Let me switch topic a little bit to career
progression. You propose that welook at our career progression
less, like climbing a verticalladder and more like rock
climbing. What do you mean bythis? And is, is RELX good at
letting its employees make theseso called nonlinear moves.
Rose Thomson (08:42):
So I always think about careers as a rock climbing
wall. So there are handholds andfootholds. You rarely get to the
top by going verticallystraight. And I think from a
career perspective, each ofthose handholds and footholds
are different experiences andskills that you get along the
(09:03):
way. And sometimes, it makes alot of sense to go sideways and
take a handhold that might, youknow, hanging out there on the
right, for example, to get adifferent skill and experience
that will actually help you moveforward in your career. And I,
really think that whole oldfashioned view of career
progression being a verticalpole - the vertical greasy pole,
(09:25):
which is much easier to go downthan it is to go up. I think
consolidating our skills, reallythinking about what skills and
experiences that we can developand taking the time to actually
develop them well, so thinkingabout how long you need to be in
a particular role to developthat skill and master that
skill. And for me, your careeris something that each of us
(09:50):
individually own, and it is acollection of skills and
experiences built over time thatactually open those career
opportunities and those choicesthat we make, and the way we
think about where we want to go,what we're interested in as
well, you know, what inspires usand what motivates us at work.
The more you have that selfawareness about what you're good
(10:11):
at and what you're interestedin, the more you can push
yourself forward for projectsand new roles and to really work
on developing those skills andexperiences. And I see a trend
within RELX of thatunderstanding and that approach
to careers, which I think isterrific, because one thing that
I really love is you're seeingpeople own their careers. You
(10:34):
know, a lot of people sit backand wait for the organisation or
their manager to say, "Oh,here's a role here, go do that",
rather than actually taking thaton for themselves. You know, our
job is, as HR within theorganisation is to, I guess,
plant the flag poles to say, youknow, here are what your career
paths could look like. But it'sup to each and every individual
(10:54):
to really develop those skillsand experiences, so that they
can follow those if they if theychoose to. So I think very
broadly, in relation to skillsand experiences and careers, and
we have a lot of opportunity todo some more in this space, you
know, we're starting to see alot more internal mobility
across the group. But if wereally want to unleash the
(11:16):
potential of our people in ourorganisation, we're going to be
focusing on that a lot more. Andwhen I look at RELX and the
breadth of our our divisions thetype of work that we do, there's
no reason that if you join RELX,regardless of where you join
RELX that you couldn'texperience 20 years of diverse
career opportunities. And ourinvestment in our people is
(11:39):
really important in terms ofensuring that we retain the very
best talent, but also reducingour reliance on external hiring.
The more that we open up rolesacross the organisation, the
more that we think about whatcareers could look like, as I
say, plant those flags so thatpeople are clear as to where
they could go and how they dogrow. Everyone actually
(12:00):
benefits, there is no downsideto doing that. Well, and that's
very much part of what I hope mylegacy will be for RELX as well.
YS Chi (12:08):
Rose, not having a linear career progression, kind
of makes me think about thispersonal choices that you
mentioned that we make, right,whether that is about someone
deciding to have a family, orthat there is something else
they need to pursue, or to takecare of elderly, you know,
(12:29):
people in their family.
Sometimes we need to take alittle step back, for personal
reasons. Does this help dealwith these ups and downs of our
personal lives and matching itto our professional growth?
Rose Thomson (12:46):
I think YS, we can as individuals, we can never
separate our work life from ourlife. It is it is a component of
who we are. And I'm a firmbeliever in, you don't you don't
march into an office, eithermetaphorically these days, or
physically as it used to be,perhaps, and turn those things
(13:07):
off. And I think we all havethings that go on in our lives
that need attention outside ofwork from time to time. And our
opportunity, I think is to makethe space for people to be able
to be where they need to be andsupport who they need to support
at a given time, withoutthinking that writes them off,
(13:29):
and that their career has tocome to a halt. Or that they're
not the best person for aparticular job at that point in
time. And I do see that I thinkthe attitudes changing. So for
example, I think these days,I've seen it myself that where
women who who are pregnant stillare offered jobs, even though
(13:52):
they're going to go off onmaternity leave for a bit. And
you know, when I was young,frankly, that just didn't
happen. So I do see somedefinite positive steps forward
like that. But I think that alsocomes down to managers and the
empathy that we we also need toshow for our people as
individuals, and we stillobviously have commercial
(14:14):
deliverables that we need todeliver on behalf of the
organisation. But I think we'rehaving to think about talent
more deeply...
YS Chi (14:21):
and probably more as a team, because if, you know, the
rest of the team steps up, whileone person is, you know,
withdrawing a little bit ortoning down a little bit. I'm
probably using the wrong wordshere, that there will be other
times when others will step upfor them. And if we work as a
team, then I think we can carryall of the the ups and downs
(14:45):
together.
Rose Thomson (14:46):
Yes, I think that's quite right, actually.
And, and that comes with havingthat psychological safety of
being able to tell people what'sgoing on in your life.
YS Chi (14:57):
Oh, that's a great point.
Rose Thomson (14:59):
And that you know you feel safe, to be able to
say, actually, I've got thisthing going on at home. And I
need to, you know, whatever itis I need to be there. And this
is how it's going to impact mefor the next x period. And if we
all recognise that actually, weall have lives like that, I
think you're quite right peopledo step up and cover, you know,
(15:20):
same as if you are ill, and youneed to take some time out, it
doesn't, doesn't stop you beinga terrific person and a great
contributor, right. And as Isay, these days, holding on to
our best talent, making surethat we're being very human in
the way that we manage and leadI think, is more important than
ever.
YS Chi (15:39):
Another important point is inclusion, inclusion to
achieve diversity, which RELXtakes very seriously. When we
look at the statistics, RELX isan industry leader in this
space, but of course, we canalways do better. Can tell us
how you look at this, and how weshould improve.
Rose Thomson (15:58):
So I think about inclusion and diversity, well,
obviously, they're veryinterlinked. For me, inclusion
is you feel heard, you feel youcan contribute equally to those
around you, you can accessopportunity equally, regardless
of the characteristics that youhave. Now, diversity, to me is
(16:20):
the measurement of thosecharacteristics. And today,
that's how we measure diversity.
The general approach todiversity is let's, let's
measure people'scharacteristics. I think the
next iteration of diversity isvery much around diversity of
thought. So by that, I mean, howdo we get around the table and
think about what the needs ofour customers are, and have a
(16:41):
whole variety of differentpeople with different life
experiences different, differentgeographic experiences,
different educationalexperiences, to contribute to
solving those problems for ourcustomers, and to me that is
diversity of thought, which Ithink moves us away from sort of
(17:02):
that, that more obviouscharacteristics, measurement.
And and brings us to a levelwhere that diversity is really
helping solve things for our forour customers. Now, I don't know
how we measure that just yet.
But I think I think we have realambitions around increasing our
(17:26):
diversity and our inclusion. Andwhile measuring numbers of
people with variouscharacteristics is, is a really
good way today, assessingprogress. I don't think it
necessarily reflects whatorganisations have achieved in
terms of diversity andinclusion. If you, if you buy
into diversity of thoughtactually is where we need to get
YS Chi (17:48):
Well, we have been trained for so long to do what
to.
has always worked. So if whathas always worked has been more
uniformity, then changing thatto diversity is a significant
transformation. And, and it ischallenging. I mean, I recall
(18:11):
starting my career, where it wasall about uniformity, right?
What has been proven, you keepdoing it, right? So if male,
white person with this degreeand this experience has done
this well, then you go out thereand hire five more of those. And
we don't ever give thoughts, orwe never did give thoughts to
(18:33):
hiring someone with differentpath. Today, of course, that has
now finally changed. And we aremore bold about bringing on
people with diversity ofthoughts, as you say, Now, is
there is there a good way tomeasure diversity of thoughts?
Rose Thomson (18:49):
I think it's quite embryonic. You could look at
people's different experiencesand say, well, let's measure
those. So for example, you know,those with college education and
those without college education.
The way I look at it, YS youknow, we could have all sorts of
diversity in terms of ethnicity,for example, but if everyone, if
everyone goes to an Ivy Leagueschool, we're not necessarily
(19:12):
going to get a diversity ofthought. Whereas if we have that
ethnic diversity, we havedifferent educational diversity,
we have different globalexperiences. So for example, you
know, I grew up in Australia, Iwent to an Australian
university, the way I think andthe way, the way you think is
actually different, because wehave different experiences, and
(19:32):
so we can bounce off each other.
And we have enriched discussionsand constructive challenge
because we come with a differentviewpoint. And I think that's
what it is. I'm not sure, we canmeasure it now. But I'd like to
think, you know, in 10 yearstime, we're a little more
sophisticated about that,because that's the journey we've
been on with diversity. It's thejourney that we've been on with
(19:54):
ESG. I am hopeful that actuallywe can be, as I say more
sophisticated about how wemeasure moving forward.
YS Chi (20:02):
Right. It's going to be a challenge for all of us to
figure out whether we canmeasure properly the progress
that we want to make. Now, willsome of these, achieving these
metrics, will lead allow us torecruit, for example, more women
in tech?
Rose Thomson (20:18):
I think the reality is that there just
aren't enough women in tech.
YS Chi (20:22):
So the pipeline is rather dry?
Unknown (20:25):
The pipeline coming educated in technology is, is
dry. And so we do need to thinkvery differently about women in
tech. And it's certainly has avery low representation of
women, however, it is growing.
So it is commonly seen now as agreat career destination for
young women, but that will taketime for them to grow and to
develop and to move intoleadership positions within
(20:48):
technology. What I think we needto do is think about far more
innovative ways of getting womeninto technology. So I think
about adjacency of skills. Sowhat is it that we're asking for
systems engineers to be doing?
How do we think how do wearticulate what those skills
are? And then how do we thinkmore broadly about where else
(21:10):
could we get those skills fromwithin RELX? So if we have, you
know, a trusted high performer,young woman, who is
demonstrating that they, youknow, are analytical, problem
solvers, and so on? Well, whywouldn't we give them a chance
and actually move them intotechnology and say, actually,
we're going to invest in you,we're going to invest, so that
(21:32):
you get the technical skillsthat you need, but actually,
from a baseline perspective,you've got the right baseline
of, of skills. So for me, I seethat as a real opportunity for
us to think very differentlyabout how we move women into
technology. I think we need tochange the language, so the way
we talk about jobs intechnology, the way we advertise
(21:52):
for jobs in technology.
Recently, we're starting to usetechnology to really assess the
language we use in our roleprofiles. And in our job ads,
we're also starting to challengemanagers, in terms of what are
you really looking for, becausethat unicorn, that you're
saying, you have to have andthat you've spent a year
interviewing for isn't there? Sohow do we think differently
(22:14):
about getting getting differentskills into technology, and then
investing in actually developingthe real technical elements of
what those roles require?
YS Chi (22:27):
Personally, I'm a little bit encouraged by some
individual cases, I have seen atRELX now, over the past five or
so years, where female workerswho do not have any either
technical background or computerscience background, have pivoted
themselves very boldly andcourageously into learning, a
(22:50):
couple of them by entering into,in house training programmes, to
help learn how to code forexample, and have made a
dramatic change in their careerpath as women in tech. So I'm
encouraged that we are seeingthis as an opportunity also to
identify people internally, whomay not have had a formal
(23:13):
education in this way. But likeyou said, have the raw talent or
the interest, more importantly,to learn something new and make
a change. So I hope that we domore of this.
Rose Thomson (23:27):
I think we've got some terrific examples of
particularly women who've beenable to pivot, I know, we have a
number of women with Englishdegrees, for example, who've
gone on to become greattechnologists, you know, we
really have an opportunity, Ithink, to profile them to talk
about their decision making andthe opportunities that they've
(23:48):
had and how they feel abouttheir career change and what
opportunities it's brought andthe satisfaction that they've
had in doing that. Because Ithink the more we can encourage
people to think more broadlyabout their careers going back
to the climbing wall, right. Youdon't have to stay in the one
swim lane. I think in anorganisation like RELX. It's a
perfect opportunity to sayactually, I'm ready to do
(24:11):
something different. I want totry something different. Give me
a go. And, you know, I thinkthat's terrific.
YS Chi (24:16):
Well, Rose, we could talk forever on this subject,
because you know, we are bothvery passionate about talent,
and how that really is thedifferentiator for RELX. Thank
you so much for spending timewith us today. Thank you so much
for all the initiatives you'retaking with your colleagues in
Human Resource. And we lookforward to having you again here
(24:39):
to tell us the progress we'vemade in the future.
Rose Thomson (24:43):
Thank you YS.
YS Chi (24:50):
My next guest is Emili Budell-Rhodes. She's the lead
evangelist of engineeringculture at LexisNexis Legal and
Professional. Her vital workpromotes and enhances the best
and the most sustainablepractices in a technology
focused company like LexisNexisL&P. She's also a great example
of what can be achieved when oneinvests in women in technology.
(25:14):
Emily, welcome.
Emili Budell-Rhodes (25:16):
Thanks so much for having me.
YS Chi (25:17):
It's very nice to connect with you, again, since
we haven't seen each other in awhile. You began your RELX
career journey in our CorporateResponsibility team. So to say
that you've had a successfulcareer pivot is to put it very
lightly. Can you tell theaudience a little bit about your
journey so far? And explain yourrole with this new title that is
(25:41):
rather unique?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (25:42):
Yeah, absolutely. With pleasure. So my
title now at LexisNexis Legaland Professional, as you said,
is lead evangelist forengineering culture. As you
said, I was part of CorporateResponsibility beforehand,
joined LexisNexis in March lastyear. And so, in a nutshell, I'm
(26:05):
a member of the globalengineering team. And the role
is about creating positivechange, both in terms of our
practices and processes and waysof working, as well as our
culture across teams and thetechnology organisation at
LexisNexis as a whole. And so abig part of that role revolves
(26:27):
around community building. We'rea rather complex global
organisation. And so how can wecome together across tech as a
community of problem solvers andshare with each other and learn
from each other, in terms ofindustry leading best practices
(26:48):
that are also rooted in ourorganisational values? That
includes responsible AI, forexample.
YS Chi (26:56):
So is there a way to look at how you simplify all
this? Or is that your role to beconducter in the middle?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (27:06):
I like to think of myself more as a bridge
than a conductor. And a lot ofit is about connecting the dots.
So it's, it's both thinkingabout systems, and processes and
things like that, but but alsoabout people. So how can we work
together better? How can we havea shared joint narrative and
(27:29):
mission? How can we createclarity around certain things?
So So simplification is, is abig aspect of it, but it's also
about capturing context, andsometimes embracing the fact
that things can be nuanced,depending on the context that
you're in.
YS Chi (27:48):
Earlier, I talked to rose about the importance of
recruiting and inspiring womenin tech. As someone whose career
has already been inspiring, doyou think that putting such an
emphasis on supporting women intech is necessary? And to be
more specific? Do you think youcan do this role particularly
well, because you are a woman?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (28:11):
Who that second part is a tricky one. Let
me let me try and answer that.
So yes, first of all I do. Ithink putting an emphasis on
supporting women in tech isnecessary. We have a gender
imbalance in technology, and Ibelieve that unless we continue
(28:32):
to do something about it, it'snot going to fix itself. When
you start looking at levels ofrepresentation of women, or
people who identify as women intech, you quickly realise that
the issue is complex, becausethere's so much variation
depending on levels of senioritytypes of roles, disciplines,
(28:54):
geography, even which part ofthe business you're looking at.
So I don't think there's there'sever going to be a magic silver
bullet here. But that beingsaid, something that I believe
should always be the startingpoint, is being aware and being
intentional, and then figuringout the best way forward for a
(29:15):
particular context. But maybe,let's also step back a minute
here and talk about why I thinkwe should care about gender
balance in the first place. Inparticular, when it comes to
technology, and maybe that willalso answer the second half of
your question about me being awoman and me being in that role.
(29:37):
And so, for me, personally, Imean that that comes down to one
major thing. Technology is builtby people for people. That
sounds like a pretty obviousthing to say. But let's let's
unpack that a little bit. Often,people equate the role of a
(29:57):
technologist to somebody whowrites code. And that's kind of
like equating the role of acarpenter to somebody who uses a
hammer. Coding is a tool. Andit's a method, right? It's an
activity. But what technologistsreally do is solve problems for
people. And that means they'llconsider the context of that
(30:22):
problem, and the implications ofthe solution that they're
proposing, in light of their ownpersonal understanding,
including, you know, theirworldview and their life
experience. So technologistsconstantly make choices that are
shaped by their own biases, andwe all have biases, that's
(30:43):
literally how the human brainworks, to optimise information,
so we all do it. And so whenthose choices are being made by
a group of people with verysimilar backgrounds and life
experiences, they miss out onconsidering maybe how to solve a
problem from a variety ofangles. And that's, of course,
not just about gender. Butgender is a big factor. There
(31:07):
are a number of societal andother systemic factors that will
shape different pathways andexperiences depending on your
gender. And as technologypervades pretty much every
single aspect of our lives,nowadays, the positive impacts
of having more gender balance inthe teams creating it can be
(31:28):
really significant. The otherthing, and I suppose that
actually feels a lot morepersonal here, is that when
you're feeling like you're theodd one out, or the only one in
the room, that can be reallychallenging and can feel
intimidating. When I firststarted my role, I was in a
(31:50):
couple of forums where I was theonly woman in the room. And
actually one of the youngestpeople, maybe not, maybe even
the youngest person there. Andat first, I just kind of put my
head down, even when I felt likeI had something to say I didn't
really put my hand up because Iwas intimidated. And when you're
working in an organisation whereinnovation is central to
(32:13):
business success, that's not agood thing. So as I said,
there's no silver bullet. Butyou know, and so while
establishing more balance ingender diversity can be
challenging, you know, sometimesthere are difficulties in
recruiting talent, etc. It'sreally crucial to create
(32:34):
inclusive psychologically safespaces where everyone feels,
they can speak up, and they'repart of the team. And that can
be as simple as reflecting onhow you've run a meeting, for
example, you know, who are youactually inviting? You know,
who's, who's there? Who's in theroom? Does everyone understand
what the meeting is about? Andwhat's expected of them? And are
(32:58):
you giving everyone a fairchance to contribute? Or are
really only listening to theloudest voices? So women are
constantly told to lean in andgrab a seat at the table? And
frankly, that can be exhaustingsometimes. So think it's also
about offering a seat.
YS Chi (33:19):
And when they're invited to the table, how do you
encourage them to raise theirhand, even though it is, as you
said, quite intimidating tospeak up when you're the odd
person in the room?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (33:30):
So I mean, there's a couple of ways to do
that. I think when you invitesomebody to something, you
should tell them why and whytheir their contribution is
valued. Because that helps withconfidence. And then, as and
when I'm actively facilitating ameeting, or have that level of
input, I can also proactivelyreach out and call somebody out,
(33:55):
for example, and say, "Hey, Iknow you're doing great work in
X, do you want to tell us alittle bit about this?" So it
doesn't have to be verycomplicated. It's just about
being aware.
YS Chi (34:05):
Right? That's great. You know, this is not how you
envisioned when you firstthought about making a pivot to
your career, some three yearsago, I think, how did that
evolve?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (34:18):
Oh, it was a journey. And a bit of a
challenging one, because thatpivot was so significant into a
completely new domain, and Istill have a huge amount to
learn. So the way I got started,and maybe you'll remember this,
YS? It was because I developed akeen interest and passion for
(34:42):
Responsible AI, in terms of howtechnology impacts people's
lives. And I wanted to find away to help build on what we're
doing in that space across RELX.
That in itself required a fairbit of patience and resilience
on my part because it's alwayshard to get a new initiative
started in a large organisation.
(35:05):
And I'm also I'm not a datascientist or a developer. I have
a background in social sciences,I spent a number of years in the
nonprofit sector. And then Ijoined the Corporate
Responsibility team. So I didn'thave exactly like the profile
you'd expect from somebodyworking on AI or technology
related questions. Eventually, Iwas successful. So we now have
(35:29):
publicly facing Responsible AIprinciples that I'm the lead
author of, and we have adedicated work stream in each of
our business areas as a directresult of that work, which is
pretty cool. There were a numberof things that helped me there
that I wanted to maybe dive intoif, if that's helpful? So the
(35:52):
first thing really was abouthaving a concrete project or
value proposition. And that wasreally the way in for me,
because I had identified an areawhere I was offering to add
value to the business in thetech space. So I had clarity
around what impact I wanted tohave, and why I wanted to work
(36:16):
in technology in the firstplace. So you know, finding your
why, gives you also the drive topersevere, even when it's not
always super easy to get ahead.
And then a couple more things.
So one was actually justspeaking to variety of
colleagues and getting feedbackwas another thing. And that's
(36:37):
something that's great aboutRELX, people always open to
having a conversation, sharingtheir expertise connecting you
to others. So networking, andusing that networking as a
learning opportunity was alsoreally big in that effort. And
as I was then finally doing theproject, I became a mentee of
our women in tech mentoringprogramme. And that was really a
(37:01):
huge help, because it provided adedicated space to discuss ideas
and challenges with a mentor whowas able to help me progress
them, and give me theperspective that I was sometimes
lacking. It was also a safespace where I could you know,
celebrate successes, ventfrustrations, that happened a
(37:21):
few times as well and actuallybe okay about having a bad day.
YS Chi (37:25):
So you think that mentoring is a crucial part in
the success of recruiting andretaining women in technology?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (37:33):
I do. I do.
I wouldn't say it's the onlything because then we also have
sponsorship as well, that isreally impactful. But just on
the mentoring piece, I thinkit's crucial to make time and
create a space to reflect onwhat you're doing and where
you're headed, both with yourcurrent role as well as your
career as a whole. And a mentorisn't there to give you all the
(37:57):
answers. It's more aboutoffering perspective. And that's
a really precious thing,particularly, you know, when
everyone's busy running from onething to the next. And actually,
I value mentoring so much thatI've become a mentor myself now.
And some things that we don'talways think about in terms of
mentoring is that it's a two waystreet. So I'm always learning a
(38:17):
lot from those mentoringconversations, I'm having my
assumptions challenged. Andthat's a very healthy thing.
YS Chi (38:26):
What advice would you give people in terms of
identifying a mentor?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (38:31):
Well, there's different ways of doing
it. I mean, if there areformalised programmes within the
company, then certainly, youknow, speak maybe to the HR team
or or look on your companyintranet and kind of track those
down. I think a lot of companieshave them. At RELX, we have a
number of different ones aswell. And then I think, you
(38:55):
know, it doesn't necessarilyhave to be formalised. I've had
a number of different mentors.
They're just people that Ihugely respect and want to learn
from, and I've just reached outto them, and actually just asked
them whether they'd be willing.
YS Chi (39:09):
They responded very positively?
Emili Budell-Rhodes (39:12):
Absolutely.
I mean, it's a hugely flatteringthing to be asked, it's kind of
nice.
YS Chi (39:17):
Well, but as you said, it's a two way street. So for
them, it is also a learningopportunity. 100% right. So this
is just one of the many pivotsyou're gonna make, I hope that
you will look for several moreahead of you. Thank you so much
for joining Emili. Emili is athird person I know who has come
(39:42):
from social science background,and has made a significant pivot
to technology. And I think that,as Emili said, that pivot is not
as difficult as you might fear,if you put your mind into a
specific direction you want togo and find people to support
(40:04):
you along the way. Emili, thankyou for being part of this
podcast today.
Emili Budell-Rhodes (40:09):
Thanks for inviting me YS it was a pleasure
speaking with you.
YS Chi (40:13):
Oh, and we're very proud of what you're doing. Thank you.
Thank you to our listeners fortuning in. Don't forget to hit
subscribe on your podcast app toget new episodes as soon as
they're released. And onceagain, thank you for listening.
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