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January 25, 2021 23 mins

In Rick’s community growing up, he was considered mixed. He explains why years of seeing other people disadvantaged doesn't mean he is privileged. 

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Rick (00:10):
I have thought a lot about this, I do my best to be open
minded. And one of the thingsI've tried to listen to is, is
that a white person doesn'tunderstand what it's like to be
a non-white person. That'sactually 100% correct.? If it is
correct, does a non-white personknow what it's like to be white?

DB Crema (00:35):
This is united states of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host, DB Crema.
What is your first memory ofbecoming aware of race or
dealing with race?

Rick (00:57):
Race didn't exist when I was a kid. P peoples did. I grew
up in a very ethnic part of theworld, Southwestern
Pennsylvania, and a very commonquestion, which would be hyper
offensive today. But a commonquestion would be, what are you?

(01:18):
And so you would identify thatanswer proudly, with I'm Slovak,
I'm Italian, I'm Polish. I'm,you know, whatever, right? And
you would probably get thoseanswers. It was a part of the
world that didn't have, frankly,anything but what we would think

(01:39):
of as white people. But backthen - I was born in the 70s -
the differentiation between onebeing Italian and another person
being French, was the equivalentof being from Central Africa and
China. That was how peopleidentified - you where you were

(02:01):
from.

DB Crema (02:02):
Hmm. And did you get asked the question, What did you
say?

Rick (02:06):
Other. Growing up in where I grew up, which is the home of
the Heinz ketchup company, youwere called a Heinz, if you
weren't purely of a certainEuropean descent. If you were
German-French, that was normal.
If you were Irish and English,that was normal. Right? And if

(02:27):
you became too much other, youwere a Heinz. You were a mutt.
So we were called the Heinz's.

DB Crema (02:37):
The Heinz thing.

Rick (02:39):
There was something to the fact that there were 57
varieties, all of the spices andall these different things that
went into make the ketchup. Andso it was very natural to say,
okay, so you're the others.
You're the mixed. You're theHeinz's. So you can keep finding
these monolithic groups. Andthen there's these other folks
that don't fit that narrowcorridor. Right? I'll be honest

(02:59):
with you, there was a lot ofvalue in community that was
monolithic. I grew up in a verywhite America, okay. Just my
part of the world. Today, I livein a place that is much more
ethnically diverse. And I'veseen so many things that are
unique, and original anddifferent. I've also seen the

(03:22):
exact same things that I sawwhen I was 10 years old, exactly
the same with completelydifferent races than what I grew
up with.
Right.

DB Crema (03:37):
So when did you encounter people who were
different skin color?

Rick (03:41):
The largest minorities that I grew up with were Indian
Americans from India, theirparents were engineers. That was
normal to me, right. So toanswer your question, it was
more about like, once I got intothe workforce, and my cube-mate
was a woman who sat across fromme. And Heather was the

(04:03):
greatest. And she was really thefirst, without a question, the
first black person I'd everbecome friends with. I hadn't
known enough of them to evenbecome friends, right. But when
you sit eight and a half hours aday facing somebody, you become
friends... or enemies. We becamefriends. Heather would come to
work and on Tuesday, she lookeddifferent than she did on

(04:27):
Monday. And on Friday, shelooked different than she did on
Tuesday. And this just goesright over my head. And then
finally, I'm like, Heather, howis it that you change your
hairstyle overnight? Like do youcurl it, like how does that
work? Because, everybody I knowthat doesn't work like that,
like you got to get a perm, yougot to get dye got a color. I

(04:52):
mean, you got blonde hair, yougot black hair, you got blue
hair. I don't understand howthis works. This goes on for two
and a half years. Two and a halfyears.

DB Crema (05:00):
Before you ask her.

Rick (05:02):
I asked her, how do you change it? And she laughs at
being giggles. And she's like, Ijust do my thing. And I'm like,
okay, whatever. I mean, I justaccept it. Two and a half years
or so go by, and she leaves andshe comes in with a different
shade of blue hair that day. Andit's her last day at work. And

(05:23):
I'm a little heartbroken, behonest with you, because we've
been sitting together - I meanit's been two and a half years.
Every day you go to work. It's acrappy ass job in a cubicle. At
least I got my friend. Myfriend's leaving me. So it's
like, I'm kind of sad. And shelooks at me and she pulls her
wig off. And she just laughs atme. Laughs hysterically at me,

(05:49):
that I was that flippin dumb.
Two and a half years, but I'dnever known anyone like that.
Okay, so fast forward the tape -it's 25 years later. Not
surprisingly, statistically, alot of women that I know are,
you know, black, and I gotta behonest with you. The first thing

(06:12):
I do when I look at these womenis, is that your hair or not?

DB Crema (06:17):
Do you ask them?

Rick (06:19):
No, I never ask. Hey, no, heck, no! No way! But, I look.
By the same token, wigs is agreat metaphor for like, wow,
the things right in front of youtangibly. visually. The wig is
fake, the person is real. Andthe value of one's hair versus

(06:45):
wig, not relevant. Not relevant.
The broader point is, maybe weoughta a look past one's wig,
right, and look...or look pastone's non-wig. It doesn't
matter. Just look past it, justkind of see the person, right. I
fell in love with Heather Brown.

(07:06):
I loved that woman.

DB Crema (07:09):
Yeah. You know, it's okay to be curious.

Rick (07:13):
Yes. I think that asking questions sometimes are -
they're not accepted or, worse,people think they're not
accepted. And so they don't getasked. One of the really
interesting things about theserace conversations is white
people are not comfortable,nowadays talking about this.
They're terrified to talk aboutthis stuff. But I'm a massive,

(07:37):
free speech person. It's one ofmy central tenants. I'm a huge,
huge free speech person. I don'tlike - I don't care if it's like
ugly speech or not. I want it inthe public sphere, because I
would rather have the uglypeople identifying themselves
than sequestered. And I alsowant the poets and the creatives

(08:00):
- I want them. And so anythingthat kind of disrupts
conversation, and the freeexchange of ideas and free
thinking people. I think it's adetriment to society.

DB Crema (08:13):
What are your thoughts about where we're at right now
in terms of these competing andconflicting messages of working
at making progress, particularlyfor racial equality, and that
juxtaposed against the thesafeguarding free speech?

Rick (08:29):
So I think people get frustrated on certain things,
and they get kind of caught upon like, where are we on
progress and blah, blah, and I'mlike, sometimes you just kind of
like, Whoa, stop. Timeout. Like,we are really a heck of a lot
farther than we were when I wasa child or when my father's or
my mother were a child there. Weare so far, farther on.

DB Crema (08:52):
There's been a lot of progress made in terms of
addressing racial inequality,specifically in this country,
which I absolutely agree with.
At the same time, without thecontinual effort and continual
fight, if you will, progressdoesn't happen. And there's
still much to be done in thatarea. And the valuing free
speech, when it's detrimental orwhen it incites detrimental

(09:15):
action... They're two veryimportant things, but at the
same time, challenging tosometimes have them coexist.

Rick (09:26):
It's a big question. More information, in my opinion, is
better for humans. Justsimplistically, you know, eight
words or less. Okay. If, if MeinKampf was readily available in
the public schools, I think thequestion would be, should we

(09:46):
allow that? It would clearlyappeal to a certain segment of
population who would take thatand probably carry it to
deleterious mean. By the sametoken, the motivations for one
person to carry things to anegative - they're not book. Not

(10:09):
necessarily. And, to the degreeto which those people exist, I
think the first thing weprobably should acknowledge is
they will always exist, right orwrong. If I was the father of a
young Jewish son or daughter, Iwould want them to read that
book. Because I would want toknow what my enemies want to do

(10:32):
to me, so that I could defendmyself and do my best to either,
worst case scenario, protectmyself, best case scenario,
disarm the other side,hopefully, with logic and
reason, right. And one of thethings that I've tried my best
to communicate to my kids - thisnever changes, this never goes

(10:53):
away. These conflicts are a partof human nature.

DB Crema (10:59):
What do you talk to your kids about race? You know,
they're a bit older now, butwhat did you talk to them about
it?

Rick (11:04):
So, I would say to a large degree, we never talked about
race. We just talked about - sowe're a Christian Catholic
family, and we're all God'schildren. These are central
tenants to my and my wife'sfaith and our principal and our,
you know, who we are. And so, Idon't know that we ever really

(11:25):
had to talk about it - we nevertalked about race,

DB Crema (11:28):
If parents of black kids do at some point, have to
grapple with what they say totheir children, or what they
need to say to their children toprepare them, shouldn't we be
also talking to our whitechildren about what to expect
that's happening around them,and what their role should be in
it? Why not have to have thatconversation with white
children, as a part of teachingthem to be prepared to stand up

(11:52):
for what's right and to stand upfor those principles?

Rick (11:55):
Yes. I would say what we've done, I think, to the best
of our abilities, not perfect,but to the best we can, is just
these basic principles of like,look, you know, we're all God's
children, right? We are who weare, right? And some people have

(12:16):
more than us, many others havefewer than us. But there are
certain structural historicalthings that will have created
certain conditions that put youin a position that is different
than others. And you need to,you need to really kind of
appreciate that, and understandthat stuff. And I think that

(12:37):
we'd be better served tounderstand this is the human
condition, this conflict is thehuman condition.

DB Crema (12:45):
But this human condition, this need to maintain
power over each other or alwaysbe right. That's not very
Christian.

Rick (12:53):
No, not at all. Not at all.
No, I think the easier path isto be who you are. And the
harder path is to be who you sayyou want to be. Much harder
path. I think the hardest thingin the world is to deny your

(13:15):
very nature. Is to deny a snackbefore bedtime. Right?

DB Crema (13:20):
You know, there's been a lot of talk about privilege.
It's just so all encompassing,it does not even has anything to
do with the choices you make ona day to day basis of like, I
will eat a cookie or I won't eata cookie. It's not as simple as
that. And it's that very point.
Why do people have such anegative reaction to the idea of
having white privilege?

Rick (13:39):
I have a negative reaction to it.

DB Crema (13:43):
Haha.

Rick (13:44):
I don't think it exists.
And I do know the premise. And Ido think I understand the
premise and I understand thefolks that say it exists, and
I'm not disavowing the conceptand where they come from. What I
think the premises is, is thatit's an inherited benefit based
on class, wealth and color. AndI don't think it's real. I

(14:12):
really don't. I have listened tothe stories of black mothers
talk about how they cannot puton the Disney Channel, they
cannot go to the toy store andfind anything but white kids.
Never struck me. Never. Is thatwhite privilege? Or is that just

(14:33):
a bubble? I don't think it'sprivilege.

DB Crema (14:38):
What do you mean by bubble?

Rick (14:40):
Bubble is my world is this big. It doesn't actually include
a sphere that totallyunderstands the perspectives of
other people. It's limited basedon my own experiences. That was
the bubble that I was in. What'ssimultaneously I think true is
that's not a place of priviegethat I grew up and there was a
bunch of white Barbies and whitekids on Disney Channel. That's

(15:02):
not privilege. I didn't get abenefit from that, per se. You
can argue that maybe others aredisadvantaged by that. But I
sure as shit didn't get abenefit from that. No question.
And this is the thing thatreally frustrates me. I grew up
squarely in the middle class50th percentile. By no means

(15:23):
wealthy.
By no means poor. All of thepeople that are absolutely
closest to me grew up in what Ican best describe as abject
poverty. And they're White. Thisis what offends me about white
privilege - the very nature thatyou have white skin, you're
better off, you have aprivilege. Tell that to the

(15:45):
folks in Fairmont, WestVirginia, along Appalachia,
where I worked for five years.
Tell that to those people, howbenefited they are by the color
of their skin. That's notprivilege. And I understand
where the concept comes from. Ireally do. And I'm sympathetic
to it. And I'm open minded. Butthe notion that you're

(16:08):
privileged, because of the colorof your skin? I mean Jesus, what
have we accomplished? If that'sthe conversation? Well, I'll
never accept that. I'm sorry.

DB Crema (16:21):
In that I hear you pinpointing the issues that that
are driving the disconnect onthe conversation about white
privilege and the differingviews on does it exist? Does it
not exist? Do people have it? Dothey not? Is the concept racist
or not? So there's a lot ofconflict around white privilege
as a concept. When we talk aboutwhite privilege, it's being

(16:43):
spoken about on a systems level.
I often hear the reaction to theconcept of white privilege being
about the individual experience,when white privilege is talking
about a systemic experience. Sothinking about it on a systems
level, or addressing it on asystems level means that the two
points that you're referencingare not mutually exclusive. So

(17:05):
to talk about an individual'sexperience, what it means to be
a poor person in this country -poor people are discriminated
against, white poor people arediscriminated against. Talking
about white privilege does notnecessarily negate that
individual experience.

Rick (17:21):
I agree with your premise, strongly, and in general. I
disagree that it isfundamentally a color thing. I
do not agree with that. I don'tmisattribute the disaffective
nature of certain policies andin laws that have
disproportionately affectedpeople of color. But if we're

(17:44):
gonna have an honestconversation about where we are
today, it's about class andwealth. It's not about color.
Poor blacks and poor whites andpoor Hispanics have so much in
common. It is not about color.
And wealthy whites and wealthyblacks and wealthy Hispanics
have so much in common. Theywent to the same Ivy League
schools, they work at the samecompanies, they have the same

(18:08):
LinkedIn friends.

DB Crema (18:11):
Yeah, so they're not having the same experience.
There's so many similaritiesbetween, as you're referencing
these two different classes,there are so many commonalities,
but then there are a lot ofdifferences, right? So you have
two, you have two uber-wealthypeople, and the uber-wealthy
black person is still going toexperience increased suspicion.
It's hard to home in on veryspecific examples, because it is

(18:35):
the systemic issue that peopleare raising.

Rick (18:38):
I think that's a fair point. And absolutely, I think
it's a fair point. I just, theconcept in the common vernacular
today, around white privilege, Ithink is detrimental to a
constructive conversation,because it's binary. And life is
far more complicated than that.
Society is far more complicatedthan that. If you said class

(18:59):
privilege, or wealthy parentsprivilege, I'm all ears. White
privilege? Nope, not at all. AndI don't want to hear any
examples about how black peopleget pulled over more than white
people. I don't disagree. Butthat does not equate to white
people having privilege. Thenotion that a black dude gets

(19:22):
pulled over on the side of theroad, when a white guy doesn't -
that is a negative to the blackguy. It's not a positive to the
white guy, it's a neutral to thewhite guy. You know, it's just
one of those things. If you wantto call it like, you know, black
non-privilege, I'd be down withthat. Not white privilege. I'll
go with black non-privilege. Howabout that?

DB Crema (19:43):
But that's not so catchy.

Rick (19:44):
Right.

DB Crema (19:45):
So how do we address it or tackle it in a way that is
constructive and fosters aconstructive conversation?

Rick (19:51):
So a couple of things.
One, more conversation better.
And not in a Twitter storm. Youdo not improve society by
getting fewer thinking peoplewith more thoughts to have.
Second, the degree to which anyof this stuff is changeable

(20:11):
requires, I think, a set of openminds. And when I think what my
challenge is today with media ingeneral, is it's a binary
Pay-Per-Click model to consumenews. That's a problem. Whether
it's Twitter, Facebook, blah,blah, blah, or whether it's CNN,
Fox News, MSNBC. It's so binary,there are no conversations

(20:37):
available for shades of grey.
It's so frustrating that lifehas become this true and false
test.

DB Crema (20:44):
Sound bites.

Rick (20:45):
Yeah, it's not real. So, this is why, to the question of
white privilege. I reject it outof hand. It's not that I think
that there's not somethingsubstantive behind it. But as
soon as you say that, there aretwo answers to the question,

(21:07):
it's true or its false. Neitherof those things are true. It is
neither true nor false. Let'snot talk about this stuff in
binary sense, understand andappreciate these shades of grey.
And listen to the people who aredisagreeing with you. Right?
Listen to the people who are notlike you. You don't have to

(21:28):
agree with them to listen tothem. Right? You miss out on a
whole frickin part of the worldif you don't listen, right? We
get x amount of years in thistime of ours, in our lives. Take
advantage of it, soak it in,listen to a bunch of new and
exciting ideas. It's a greatopportunity, you probably

(21:49):
shouldn't pass it up. And if youstart to carve off whole
sections of society that you caninterpersonally relate with at a
human level. You're just goingto miss out on happiness. I
don't know better way to say it,you're just gonna miss out. You
may never know it, but probablyin your soul, you will know it.
You know you're gonna miss outon something.

DB Crema (22:13):
Thanks for listening to United States of race. This
podcast was written and producedby me, DB Crema. Thank you to
Aly Creative for designing ourartwork, and to Nick D and Nick
S for technical support. If youlove great storytelling, please
subscribe to United States ofRace on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,

(22:33):
or wherever you get yourpodcasts. You can also show us
some love by rating and writingreview on Apple podcasts or
Podchaser. And go ahead andshare this podcast with your
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connection through sharingpersonal stories. You can also
follow us on Instagram atunitedstatesofrace. And as

(22:57):
always, if you - Yes, you, havea compelling story to share, and
would like to be featured in anupcoming episode, send us a
message atunitedstatesofrace@gmail.com.
Until next time,
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