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February 1, 2021 17 mins

Moving back to the U.S.,  Ami is on a steep learning curve with race relations in America and grapples with the model minority concept when she sees rampant anti-black sentiments in the South Asian community.

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Ami (00:10):
I didn't feel I wasn't confronted by by people reacting
to my race or the races, likewhen I went into small towns to
go shopping or go to the Walmartor whatever. But I also know
that I was viewed as likeneutral. I don't know, being
being Indian is like aninteresting, it's an interesting
position because you almost gettreated like,
you know, the model minority...

(00:30):
I'm not seen as a threat.

DB Crema (00:35):
This is united states of race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships. I'm
your host, DB Crema.
When did you become race aware?

Ami (00:54):
My notion of being different, of being an other - I
first noticed that when I movedto Australia when I was nine and
a half or 10. Because for thefirst time, I was surrounded by
people who really lookeddifferent from me. It took me a
while to adjust to the notionthat I was in this other bucket.
You know, it wasn't part of thedefault, the default setting.

(01:16):
And I think the first time Irealized that that was or felt
like that was a bad thing - Iwas in like, fourth grade, fifth
grade. And we got paired up withkindergarten kids or first
graders, as buddies or mentors.
And I was like, Okay, well,sure, I'll do it. I was very
academically inclined, like,really wanted to be help, very
bossy. And this little girl, youknow, we talk to each other or

(01:39):
whatever. And one day, she justgot upset with me about
something. And she said, Getaway from me and what she does
get away from you smell likecurry. And it was the first time
that I'd ever heard anythinglike that. And I didn't
understand. I was so confused.
And I think I talked to mycousin about it when I got home.
I was like, why would she saythat? Do I smell? And that was

(02:02):
sort of my introduction to it'snot just that I look different.
Or that people think I haveelephants in my backyard in
Bombay. It's like, no, it's,it's deeper than that.

DB Crema (02:14):
What was that about?

Ami (02:17):
When I moved to Sydney, the children I met there, you know,
friends were very curious aboutwhat my life was, like, asked me
about elephants and cows andlike was I near a jungle. You
know, just these very exoticideas. When I went back to
Bombay, Mumbai, my friends therewanted to know about kangaroos
and you know, did I live in thebush? What was my life like.

(02:40):
Like, there were these, thesevery obviously, like,
entertaining childish notions ofwhat life in a different country
was like. And I'm just alwaysdelighted by that.

DB Crema (02:49):
It's this romanticized view, probably from watching
Saturday morning cartoons.

Ami (02:54):
Yeah, it's interesting, because I think as a child, that
sort of, it makes sense, right?
Your world is small, you know.
There can be this curiosityabout somebody else's
experience, or, or existence orwhatever, even if they don't
understand it, or can't. It'salways this kind of amazing
moment when kids realize, like,oh, your life is totally
different from mine, like, youknow, tell me more. It's not,
it's not this automatic fear.
And I think as adults, when yourealize that somebody else's

(03:17):
life is so different or somebodyelse's existence is so
different. Their instinct can bedenial, right, to say, I don't
think that can be true. We tendto deny other people's
experiences when we can'tunderstand them, versus being
curious about them.

DB Crema (03:31):
And what was it like when you came to the US? You
came as an adult, and that was acompletely different culture.

Ami (03:36):
Yeah, it felt very familiar. Like when I came out
of the airport in Boston, andheard the accents and
everything, you know, growingup, on like American TV, and
movies, and all of that, I feltimmediately like I knew where I
was. So I was born in the US. Myparents were here as grad
students from India. And myparents moved back to India,

(03:58):
when I was two, decided theywanted to go back and help, you
know, fix the country, like makea difference at home. And I
moved to the states in 2010, forBusiness School, so it didn't
feel that jarring, actually, forme. I think those moments of
like shock or surprise, werepresent for me at Business

(04:21):
School, when it was like, ourclass split really along racial
lines in terms of like, socialinteraction, and it was
considered totally normal. And Idon't think it was, you know,
conscious, but it was clearlyvisible. Everyone knew it was
happening. And the Indianswould, you know, hang out with
each other, like, the black kidswould hang out with each other,
the, you know, white East Coast,people that all went to the same

(04:43):
schools would hang out with eachother. And, of course, they were
you know, there was mixing andthere were people that you know,
floated between groups, but whenI noticed it was in my second
year of campus. I had tworoommates. One was a black woman
from Memphis, and another was awhite woman originally from out
upstate New York. And like I wasfriends with both of them. And
so we kind of got together anddecided we're going to live in a

(05:04):
house together. And for the restof the year, people constantly
forgot that we were in the samehouse. Every time. We'd already
known everybody else in theclass for like, one year at that
point. People always assumedthat I lived or, you know, was
part of like, some Indian housesomewhere. And more often than
not, also always assume that ourblack roommate lived in this
house with like four other blackwomen. They just like, lumped

(05:27):
her in with that group. And soevery time I was like, Oh, yeah,
we'll come together, because welive together. They were like,
"Oh, right. Oh, I thought shelived in the other house. Oh, I
thought you lived here." And itwas one of those things where
like, it seems very innocuous,but over and over again, it just
kind of reinforced this notionthat, oh, we're not supposed to,
according to whatever unwrittenrules exist, we're not supposed

(05:47):
to mingle, or like her place isdefined by everybody else
already. And that drove me upthe wall. And I think the more
like, I think I asked questionsof her, of other friends, just
other people about, you know,why do people react this way?
Like, what what is that? I wasvery naive about it, the more I
realized that, like the livedexperience of my black

(06:08):
classmates was completelydifferent, completely different
from mine. So it was weird, Isort of came to this awareness
that a place on surface or mostof the time could be
progressive, you know,appropriate, inclusive, and then
have these like pockets ofracism, that were almost more
insidious, because no one had anissue with it. Like, I can feel

(06:31):
like the anger like coming up 10years later.

DB Crema (06:33):
It's like the housing version of all black people look
alike, or all Indians look like.
To your point, people justhave... they deny the experience
of others if they haven'texperienced it themselves.

Ami (06:45):
Yes. Like, I think empathy has limits. And
I may not be able to empathizewith someone else's experience.
But also, that shouldn't stop mefrom acknowledging that
experience is real and valid.
Like, I think I had this notionthat I had to be able to walk in
that person's shoes, to thenengage and understand. But why
isn't it enough for someone totell me what happened, or what

(07:08):
their experience is like, andfor me to just believe them? Why
do I have to be able tounderstand it? Or like, you
know, feel like, Oh, I am therewith you. Why can I just say,
okay, that happened and that'sreal? It's important for us to
get away from this notion thatlike, Oh, you have to be able
to, you know, put yourself insomebody else's shoes to be an
ally, or to be a friend, youdon't. You should just be able
to believe people as well.

DB Crema (07:28):
Isn't that the definition of sympathy?

Ami (07:31):
Yeah, I guess,

DB Crema (07:32):
I think the challenge comes up when, in the act of
acknowledging other people'sexperiences, it requires of them
to turn the mirror onthemselves. And I think that's
when it becomes uncomfortable,and it's easier to ignore and
deny than to recognize it.

Ami (07:52):
Yeah. I think that's really well said. And it's important.
It's a really, really strongpoint. Because it's, it's also
like, it's always easier topoint to other people in your,
in your demographic. It's, youknow, oh no, it's the other
Indian people that are that areracist, you kno. Anti blackness
exists in community, but withother Indians, I'm not part of
the problem. And that can't betrue. You know, other people

(08:13):
like me are like this, but I'mnot. I mean, everyone wants to
believe that they're not part ofthe average. But yeah,
confronting our own part in thatis, I think, really important.
You know, for me, like coming tothe US, not knowing a lot about
American history, not knowingand not understanding systemic
racism, it made it so that like,when people don't talk about

(08:35):
systemic racism, it's like, oh,this is just the way things are
like, it made me reallysusceptible to believing that
this is how things are, like,this is just normal. And like
that denial, and thatnormalization is, is really,
really powerful. Like, you know,the first election I voted in in
the US was President Obama's reelection. And so my memory of
that was like, Oh, yeah, youknow, like, what a progressive

(08:57):
country like, this is such a bigachievement. This is amazing.
And so when people said, yeah,we live in a post-racial
society, I was like, yeah, mustbe true. Which, now I'm like,
what, what, what? It's, it'sembarrassing to think about it,
but also, like, Ican't, you know,
I can't judge myself constantly,becuase then I can't move
forward. But like, the dominantmessages in the media, or
whatever it is, is like, yeah,we're past all that. That's all

(09:19):
ancient history. And until,until that gets questioned
loudly and widely and in every,every forum, people will believe
it.

DB Crema (09:28):
It's interesting to hear you talk about it from a
foreign perspective of beingsocialized to believe that this
is how things are, and there'svery little reason to question
it.

Ami (09:40):
Yeah, like my questioning was very focused on me. And, you
know, my race, my ethnicityhere, like, I bristled and I
still do. When people ask me,oh, you you work at Microsoft.
Because I'm in Seattle, andwhatever.
I'm like, What??
Like, you know, that not allIndians are engineers, right?
Like, you know that, right? Youknow, Uber drivers who will very

(10:02):
sweetly, very sweetly say, oh,but you don't sound Indian. I
really like your accent. And I'mlike, there are like 26 official
languages in India and then somany more. And just because
like, like, no. And you know,some of them are like, why
you're getting so angry. And I'mlike, because this is
ridiculous. So I have thatconsciousness on my own behalf.

(10:22):
Right?

DB Crema (10:24):
Well, are we getting the point where we are so overly
sensitive about every littlething that everyone said? Do we
need... Should we be aiming toget to a point in our society
where nobody ever says anythingpolitically incorrect?

Ami (10:41):
You know, I, I think, I think actually, I think that...
I think we will never get tothat place. But I think that
aiming for a society whereeveryone feels respected, is a
really, really wonderful goal tohave. I think there's a
difference between like,political correctness, and I

(11:02):
think striving for shared equalmutual respect. Like, is it okay
for a taxi driver, Uber driverto make a joke like that? You
know, and I don't blame him fordoing it. But at the end of the
day, I'm counting on him as likesomeone in my society to also
make good decisions for ourcollective good. And so ishe. He
wants, you know, he needs hisfellow citizens to, to be

(11:24):
behind, like, what's importantfor him. And if he doesn't
have... or if he or many otherpeople think it's okay to make
comments, you know, that put mein a box. That's, that's not a
good thing for our society. Soit's not the objection to like,
political incorrectness. I thinkit's more, Is it a symptom of

(11:45):
underlying attitudes? Like, whatis it signaling actually? Yeah,
I find that in my experience, Ithink that people when I've
talked to them about, who aremost worried about, you know,
political correctness, or like,Oh, why can't I make this joke,
or like, you know, why don't yourelax, it's just a joke? Those
people have not been the peoplewho are the target of the joke,

(12:05):
or the punch line. It's beenwhite male friends who are like,
wait, but why? Like, why can'twe just laugh about this? Or
white female friends who havebeen making jokes about
colonialism - like whitehusband and me. There was a
period of time where people weremaking jokes about the Raj and
how, you know, oh, yeah, likehis people colonized Indonesia,
which they didn't, but he has aDutch last name, so you know, it
was convenient for the joke. AndHaha, now he's like, married

(12:27):
this Indian woman. And that shitmade me really mad.

DB Crema (12:31):
What we need is the perfect sentence that perfectly
sums up why it's an issue.
Because if you tackled thatevery single time and try to get
people to understand why, inthat case, it's not funny. It's
not something we laugh about.
You can't go through your day,explaining that to everybody and
get anything else done. So it'slike...

Ami (12:53):
Oh, actually, I think I read this somewhere recently. I
think a person was like, she wassaying, I asked them to explain
why that's funny. She was like,when people say things, you
know, that I don't find amusingor offensive. I don't laugh,
because I think a lot of us alsoour instinct is to laugh, right
to defuse the tension. Shedoesn't laugh and then she says,
Why is that funny? And she said,that makes people so

(13:15):
uncomfortable. Like immediatelyit makes them accountable.
Right? It's like, well, can youtell me why that's funny? So I
haven't used that yet, but Imight. Although I will say I
think once I started speaking upin my friends circle, when
things made me uncomfortable, myfriends responded really well.
They're still funny, but they'renot funny at my expense. At
least not, sorry. Not at mydemographic, like not at the

(13:38):
expense of like, things I can'tcontrol about myself. Like they
can still make fun of me forbeing sloppy, or not being able
to cook or things like all ofthat. Like, yeah, there's plenty
of material without having totalk about, you know, my gender
or my racial makeup.

DB Crema (13:53):
Make fun of me. Don't make fun of everything I
represent.

Ami (13:57):
Yes. Yeah.

DB Crema (14:00):
So how do we get to that post racial place?

Ami (14:03):
Yeah. Make America post racial again?

DB Crema (14:06):
Make America post racial again.

Ami (14:09):
Yeah, I don't know if we...do you think
we can get to a place wherewe're ever post racial?

DB Crema (14:15):
Um, I don't know. I don't know if I have that much
hope in mankind.

Ami (14:23):
Yeah. What's been giving me I think a lot of hope and like,
almost excitement for the futureis looking at how different
already Gen Z is in terms ofengagement. And not all of them
obviously, but they seem farmore willing to fight for
equality and for equaltreatment. My take on it is I

(14:45):
think with every successivegeneration, we have a chance to
do better. You know, as like theBlack Lives Matter movement has
gotten more press and morecoverage globally. In India, the
Dalits who are, you know who inthe old times were called
untouchables. Like, within theCaste system it was really...
they've still been... they're onthe receiving end of so much
violence in all its forms. Andit's been, again, normalized and

(15:10):
denied. Because Oh, we abolishedCaste in the 50s. That Caste
doesn't exist anymore. No, itdoes. Just because you say that
it's not there, it doesn't meanit's not there. Like everyone be
aves like it's a real thing. Sothe Black Lives Matter mo
ement has raised cosciousness around the Dalit mov
ment in India. That's amaing to see that the energy and

(15:30):
the force of activists can magify like that globally, and at
pace that's even faster thaI think it was before. Like tha
gives me hope. Yes, there wil always be things that you know
need to be fought or addresse. There's always going to be an
ther dimension along which wecan be divided and split. B
t this shows that we can be unied across these things that d
vide us.

DB Crema (15:55):
Thanks for listening to United States of Race. This
podcast was written and producedby me, DB Crema. Thank you t
Aly Creative for designing ourartwork. And to Nick D and Nick
S for technical support. If yolove great storytelling, pleas
subscribe to United Stateof Race on Spotify, Apple Podca
ts, or wherever you get yourodcasts. You can also show us so

(16:18):
e love by rating and writig a review on Apple podcasts or
odchaser. And go ahead and sharthis podcast with your frie
ds and anyone who believes in te power of building conn
ction through sharing persnal stories. You can also foll
w us on Instagram at all oneord unitedstatesofrace. And as

(16:39):
lways, if you - Yes, you havecompelling story to share
and would like to be featued in an upcoming episode, send
s a message at unitedstateofrace@gmail.com.
Until next time.
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