March 22, 2021 • 61 mins
“I may not be able to find my family but it always made me feel a step closer to help others.” OUTSIDERS WITHIN is a landmark publication that explores transracial adoption and the heavy emotional and cultural toll on those who directly experience it. The volume has many contributors who explore transracial adoption through essays, fiction, poetry, and art. OUTSIDERS WITHIN is coedited by Jane Jeong Trenka, Julia Chinyere Oparah, and Sun Yung Shin. This episode features Trenka in conversation with Ami Nafzger. Jane Jeong Trenka was adopted from South Korea to Minnesota. She holds a master of public administration from Seoul National University and was instrumental in revising Korea’s adoption law in 2011. She is author of THE LANGUAGE OF BLOOD and FUGITIVE VISIONS and coauthor of CHILD-SELLING COUNTRY (in Korean) with Kihye Jeon Hong and Kyung-eun Lee. She lives in Korea. Ami Inja Nafzger (aka Jin Inja) was adopted from Cheonju, South Korea, at the age of four and grew up in Wisconsin. She attended Augsburg College in Minnesota, graduating in social work, sociology, and Native American Indian studies. She founded Global Overseas Adoptees’ Link (GOA’L) in 1997. Nafzger is founder, president, and CEO of Adoptee Hub and works for the Department of Human Services (DHS) State of Minnesota as a Planning Director in the Business Integration Division for Children and Family Services. LINKS: Outsiders Within: z.umn.edu/outsiderswithin Adoptee Hub: https://www.adopteehub.org/ G.O.A’.L.: Global Overseas Adoptees’ Link: https://goal.or.kr/
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Episode Transcript
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Ami Nafzger (00:05):
For the adopted community, I think that there
has been, a lot of pain. There'sa lot of problems and issues
that need to be addressed suchas deportation, depression,
suicide, identity issues. Thatincludes, you know, just trying
to find your birth family and,just learning about who you are
and trying to feel a sense ofbelonging within your own
(00:27):
environment. It has been seventyyears since Korean adoption has
started, and yet still there isno services here in The U. S.
That can actually address theseissues for adult adoptees.
Jane Jeong Trenka (00:46):
Hello, everybody. My name is Jane Jung
Tranca. I was born in Seoul,South Korea, and I live here
now. But in between there, I wasadopted to Frazee, Minnesota.
Some people know me in theadoption community from, the
book Outsiders Within, which isin its second edition from
University of Minnesota Pressnow, and, some other people
(01:07):
might know me from Language ofBlood or Future Divisions, which
are memoirs that I wrote aboutmy adoption.
Ami Nafzger (01:13):
My name is Amy Nosker. I am a Korean adoptee,
and I was adopted to The UnitedStates, lived in Wisconsin until
high school. In college, that'swhen I discovered that I was,
Korean adoptee. And after that,I went back to, Korea to live
(01:33):
for some time. And then nowI've, returned back in 02/2003,
and I've been here residing inThe States.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:40):
I'm so pleased to talk with you, Amy,
because we're both Augsburggraduates.
Ami Nafzger (01:44):
Well, Jane, I have to say that I am actually also I
was also very honored toactually be in your book with,
Outsiders Within. And so I justwanna say that I'm I have been a
personal fan of yours. And, Ithink it's pretty ironic how you
and I were both went to OxfordCollege. And I just remember the
first time I met you. Actually,I it wasn't even a meeting.
(02:07):
I remember the first time Iliterally saw you, we were both
on the same dormitory floor inErnest Hall. And I think you and
I both walked out of ourdormitory rooms, and we both saw
each other down the hallway. Ithink we both just turned around
and went the other way becausewe didn't know what to do when
we saw each other. And I'llnever forget that. Oh, right.
(02:30):
It's pretty funny.
Jane Jeong Trenka (02:31):
Yeah. I think it's just really so we are both
in our very late forties. Right?
Ami Nafzger (02:36):
Yes.
Jane Jeong Trenka (02:37):
And I'm just, you know, just kinda thinking
about life. Like, this is, like,really I mean, like, I was I was
so, honored to have youcontribute to Outsiders Within
and in the first edition, I knewabout what you were doing and so
forth and, you know, like, lifekeeps going and I can kinda see,
like, how your life isunfolding. And I just think it's
(02:57):
really amazing. And it's socrazy that we were both at
Augsburg in Ursa on the SixthFloor sharing a bathroom. And I
I remember I remember when I sawyou too because you had this,
like, really cool black leatherjacket.
Yeah?
Ami Nafzger (03:12):
Oh, I don't remember that.
Jane Jeong Trenka (03:14):
You did. You had the coolest black leather
jacket and you had cool friends.And you were so cooperative, and
you were all up in the AsianAmerican, group, right, with
with Liefen Benson?
Ami Nafzger (03:27):
Yes. I had just joined because she had chased me
down my freshman year andsophomore year, and it was
junior was when I started to getreally heavily involved. But I
also did the same thing to LiHoon when I first met her or in
the hallway, and she kept onchasing me down. And I I was
scared when I saw another Asianface, and I turned around and
(03:49):
ran the other way.
Jane Jeong Trenka (03:51):
So how did you come around to, deciding
that you're gonna be involved inthat?
Ami Nafzger (03:56):
Because I think Lee Hoon was so persistent, and she
just she knew my name, and shejust kept on she just she
literally chased me down thehall saying, Amy, Amy, are you
Amy? And I was like, who is thislady? And so she was so
persistent with me every singleyear, and I finally just one day
stopped and said, okay. I'm justgonna have enough guts to talk
(04:18):
to this to this lady who lookslike me. And so I did, and she
was the one that really made mefeel like it was okay to talk to
her and to other people thatlooked like me.
And she was the one that made mefeel comfortable and realized
that there are other people thatlooks like me. And then when she
(04:39):
addressed the fact that I was anadoptee, which I never really
ever talked about or actually,was okay with. She then started
to introduce me and telling methat it's really important that
I should someday try to learnabout being Korean, where I came
from, and meeting other Koreansto learn about it. And so I
(04:59):
thought about it for a while,and that was probably, I feel
like, where I started to do my,search for who I really was.
Because of her, I think shereally, really changed my life
and opened up my mind.
And so after college is when Idecided to go back to Korea, and
I did. And when I went back toKorea, I didn't have anything
(05:22):
here in The US that was holdingme back. And I just felt, I
guess I just felt very alone andvery confused. And so I decided
just to go back to the to Korea,and I picked up everything. And
when I went to Korea, I wentthere with $200 in my pocket.
You're so brave. Applied. And, Ididn't know what I was doing. I
(05:48):
had a friend that actually toldme about she was a Korean
adoptive mother. She had told meabout this article or showed me
this article and encouraged meto apply to get a job in when I
went to Korea, and I did.
And it was teaching English, andI did that. So that was, I think
(06:09):
it's it's something I'll neverever would wanna change. It's it
was all about my adoptionjourney, and I'm really glad I
did that.
Jane Jeong Trenka (06:17):
Wow. So you tell the story in the book about
the trouble that happened to youin Gumi. Do you wanna go about
that?
Ami Nafzger (06:26):
Sure. I can't remember exactly what I said in
the book, but, so just to kindof backtrack from Gumi because
it because it kinda started outhow I got to Gumi. When I
arrived and so I was justsharing with you when I left for
Korea. I got on the airplane. Iit was a long flight.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing. I wasn't really prepared.
(06:49):
I didn't know what to expect. Ithink it was. I was 25 years
old.
I was pretty young. 24. I waspretty young. And, when I got
there, I was expecting to meet aperson that I thought I had
arranged to pick me up and goand live in Incheon and to,
teach English at a hagwon, whichis called a language center. So
(07:12):
I thought I had done the rightthings.
I had arranged everything. I haddone the paperwork for it. I
applied with the hagwon. Andwhen I arrived at the airport,
nobody nobody was there to pickme up. And I just kinda panicked
for a little bit.
And I was actually, I ended upsomehow I don't know, you know,
(07:32):
and some of this is such a blurnow because I don't know what I
did. I think I must have stayedat some hotel outside of the
airport because nobody picked meup for it was, like, two or
three days, I think. And I endedup trying to call them and call
them, and I was panicking andfreaking out because I didn't
know what to do. I didn't know asingle person in Korea. I didn't
(07:53):
know the language.
I didn't know anything aboutKorea. And so then they finally
came and picked me up, this manwho and then when he picked me
up, he was the guy that I hadactually arranged made my
arrangements. He apologized. Inmy arrangements before I came to
Korea, I was told that I wasgonna be staying with because I
was given an option. Do I wannastay in an apartment with other
(08:16):
English teachers, or do I wantto stay in a Korean family home
with, mother, father, and twochildren to learn about Korea?
And I chose the the later optionto actually, be in a homestay
with the families so I couldactually really learn and
embrace about the Korean cultureand family. When this gentleman
(08:38):
or man, I should say, not even agentleman. When he was bringing
me to his home, because I, I Iasked him about his wife and
children, and he said in the caras we were driving to his home
that he's actually not married.And he has no children and that
he was just living with hismother. And I was kinda freaked
(08:59):
out, and I was I didn't knowwhat and I said, but I thought
you said that, you know, becausewe had these conversations.
And this is what you had wroteme in an email saying that you
were married and you had twochildren. And he said no. And so
I said, well, what am I supposedto do? And he's like, well, you
are still gonna be teaching forme. I have children that come
(09:21):
and you'll be doing a lot ofprivate classes and you'll also
be teaching at the languageinstitute.
So I said, okay. But it actuallydidn't really turn out that way.
And so he first said you know,the first couple days, he didn't
bring me to the languageinstitute. And and then I kept
on asking, what should I do? Andthen, you know, when I met his
(09:44):
mother, she didn't speak a wordof English, but she just she
didn't talk to me either.
She wasn't she has she wasn'twelcome welcoming or friendly
and just never she never talkedto me. It was an apartment,
three bedrooms, and so I didhave my own bedroom. And so
finally, he, I just kept onasking and I was kind of, I
(10:05):
wasn't persistent, but maybe Iwas, you know, because I was
also very shy at that time too.I kept on asking, and he finally
brought me to the languageinstitute. I met the other
English teachers, and that'swhen I just thought and I met
the director, and I thought, ohmy goodness.
I wish I was here now, you know,with these other teachers
because this something's notright. I felt very uncomfortable
(10:27):
in the whole situation. And sowhen I felt very uncomfortable,
I expressed that to him, and Ijust kept on saying that I don't
feel comfortable. Well, he toldme that if I want to, then I can
just teach there. So I said,okay.
Well, can you show me how to getthere from your from your home?
And he said and so he says,well, here's the address. And
(10:49):
and this time, I mean, I wasbrand new to Korea, so I didn't
know how to read Korea. And hesaid, well, here's the address.
You'll here's the bus, andyou'll just have to listen to
the stop.
And I thought, well, I don'tknow what this means. I don't
know where the stop is. And so Idid I took the bus, but I had no
idea where I was. Everythinglooked exactly the same. I was,
(11:11):
finally, I went up to this womanand when I was on the bus
because the bus just kept ondriving and driving and driving.
She took my hand and she broughtme around and she brought me to
the languages too. And I got Iarrived to the hagwon and I
expressed how uncomfortable Ifelt. When I expressed myself to
the, Hong Kong director, he justsaid, you know, just take time
(11:33):
and, you know, mister Kim is agood guy, you know, and so,
you'll be fine. Three months hadgone by, and at that time, I
would receive letters,apparently from my family, my my
siblings, and some of myfriends, but I didn't know it.
And then my brothers and sistersstarted calling, and I had no
(11:53):
idea that they were calling.
And so, apparently, I found outlater when the phone rang that
my brother all of a sudden, mybrother, mister Kim said, Amy,
the phone is for you. And Isaid, oh. And so I answered the
phone and my brother Paul wasjust a little I think he was
extremely worried and so was mysister because they were
wondering what happened to me.And I and I thought, what do you
(12:14):
mean? And I and I said, I'msorry I haven't called you.
And they said, no. We've beentrying to call you. But mister
Kim said that he was going tolet you know that we've been
calling, and we've also sentmail. And I was not receiving
the phone calls or mail. And soI'd asked mister Kim about it.
He he did admit it. And, that'swhen he started telling me that
he wanted me he told me that heactually brought me there
(12:37):
because he he saw my picture andbecause Koreans are really big
on pictures of people and imageas Jane, as you know. And he
said that he wanted me to be hishe brought me over because he
wanted me to be his concubineand he wanted me to be his wife.
And I was obviously very youngat the time, and he was in his
(13:00):
forties. I think he was, like,42 or something like that.
And I was totally freaked out.And it was very uncomfortable,
and that's when I just, I guess,I I I I I knew this was not a
good place for me. And so I toldhim that I did not wanna be
there, and then he threatened tojust deport me from Korea. And
(13:23):
so I was devastated because Ihad barely gotten to know Korea
at that time, I felt, because I,you know, I was sitting here
trying to navigate my myenvironment, trying to make sure
that I was in a safe place. Iknew there there was something
not right, and I was trying to Iwas trying to trust the process,
and it didn't feel good to me.
(13:45):
And so I went back to thedirector, and the director said
fine. And so he brought he toldme he had a friend in Gumi,
which is, a smaller town southof Seoul. And so I said that's
fine. I will go there. And so hehad a friend there.
And when I was brought to Gumi,I went there and it was his
(14:05):
friend and he was a hagwondirector. Well, this director
was very kind, but you couldtell he would bring me to the
different government agenciesand have them a very large wad
of money. And he would say,Look, I'm bribing them. And very
proud of it, by the way. Look,I'm bribing the government
officials so you can stay herein the country.
(14:26):
And so, that's I was a littleshocked because I was learning,
a side of Korean culture that Idid not expect to learn very
quickly. And so I I I didn'tfully understand what was going
on at first, and I was justlike, I figured it out
afterwards. And there was, so Iwas teaching in this his name
(14:49):
was also mister Kim. And so Iwas teaching in his hagwon, and
there were many Korean, nativeKorean teachers as well
teaching. And then there was oneCanadian teacher, and he was a
male.
His name was Todd. Well, theCanadian male teacher, who was
(15:10):
white, was very, very he wasvery favored by mister Kim. As I
was teaching, I was I had toteach all of the all the,
factories. So it was all theengineers that put together our
phones and iPads or not iPads, Ishould say. Phones and tablets
and and well, at that time, itwas beepers and and so on.
(15:33):
So they're the ones that, theengineers from Samsung and LG,
the electronic companies that Ihad to teach. And I had some
great students, but that's whenfour months down the road well
well, between those four months,I had been working there. The
first month I got paid, and thenafter that, we did not get paid
(15:55):
and for several months, and theteachers were upset. And and in
Korea, as Jane would know, thatyou only get paid once a month.
And so and a very large lumpsum.
And so one of my students, whono longer became a was a student
of mine, had actually liked meand asked me out on a date, went
(16:17):
on a date with him, and then he,found out about how we were not
getting paid for several months,and then he went to the director
and demanded for me to get paid.And then, by that time, I was
just so I I just was nottrusting the process and
enjoying my life in Koreabecause I was trying so hard to
(16:38):
try to fit in. I had so manycomments on how, you know, from
students, you know, how I shouldbe Korean, that I am Korean, but
don't tell anybody that I'm anadoptee. And just so many
different, things that I wasexperiencing in Korea. Really
trying to fit in and trying tofigure out who I am and what my
(17:00):
life would have been like if Iwould have lived in Korea and
never been adopted.
That was where I wasexperiencing for several years.
And so I ended up staying atGumi for about a good year, a
little over a year. But duringthat time, I had I would have to
say, made the mistake by gettingengaged to this Korean man who
(17:20):
helped me try to get paid. And,I made a mistake because I was
just so alone, and I was soconfused of who I was and trying
to fit in and trying to haveanybody accept me because I felt
like everything was always myfault. And so I did that.
And so when I was engaged tohim, I moved in to an apartment,
(17:41):
but then it was not a good,decision of mine. And he became
very, very he would he would hewould I never saw him. He would
be working all day long, andthen he didn't want me to work
at all. And I wanted to teachbecause I was I was in a small
town, so I was bored out of mymind. And I had no one to talk
(18:02):
to.
But he wouldn't let me teach,and then he would bring his mom
and brother over. And and theywould want me to cook and clean
for them all day long. And itwas just, it was not a good fit
for me. It was not me. And sothat's when I started to visit
(18:24):
Seoul.
And I I visited Seoul everysingle weekend. I would leave,
you know, right, after work onFriday, and I would would return
on Sundays because my the manthat I was engaged to was never
home anyway. He was almost outdrinking on business trips or
whatever. And, so that's when Istarted meeting a lot of Korean
(18:46):
adoptees, and I discovered thatthere were adoptees that were
going through not the same exactsituation, but similar
situations as I am trying tofind and navigate Korea on our
own. And so that's when I feltlike that there needed to be
something in Korea to helpadoptees, because I knew I
wasn't the only one there or Iwasn't the only adoptee that was
(19:08):
gonna return back to Korea anddo the same thing to do some
soul searching or to just goback to Korea to do for various
reasons.
And so that's when I starteddoing the paperwork and writing
up a lot of ways, goals,mission, kind of like a business
plan of how I think that thereshould be a nonprofit built in
(19:29):
Korea for adoptees to assistthem. So I did that. I started
that in, '96. And then '97, Ireally started, you know,
providing this paperwork to andthen I met some government
officials in Korea in Seoul, andthat's when I started working
with them. And I tried meetingsome adoptees, a lot of
(19:50):
adoptees.
It was so much convincing justfor them to even join a meeting.
It was like begging people tojoin. And that's when I realized
that adoptees were just also notfeeling very stable. Not so I
don't you know, not mentally. Itwas more about the physical
piece and the the the the jobwise.
(20:10):
Because at that time, the f fourvisa, there was not a visa for
adoptees to be able to stay inKorea. So we had to leave the
country every three months. Iwent to Fukuoka, Japan a lot. I
did end up going to America andand Europe a few times too
during during those times I hadto renew my visa. So even though
(20:32):
that I had, a contract with theHAVORNE, it wasn't always very
stable, and there were timesthat I had to leave the country.
And so, yes, it wasn't, and itwas because we were known as
foreigners. So it was hard itwas hard to digest for me to
know that I was a foreigner and,I because I didn't feel like a
foreigner there. I felt like itwas my my birth country. It was
(20:56):
my motherland. It was it was aplace that I felt like I should
belong, I should be old.
But in reality, that was not thecase. And so in '98, I was able
to find several adopteesliterally begging them to come
at to a meeting and join me tohear about what we could do. We
had one meeting, and,unfortunately, there was a lot
(21:17):
of in fighting amongst adoptees.I didn't even know who I have
some adoptees, and I was veryconfused. Because I had never
seen you know, I had never I Iwas not aware.
Someone said that there's alwaysfighting with adoptives, but, I
was not aware of that and Ididn't I I guess I didn't
believe it. But there wasactually even an actual physical
fight as well.
Jane Jeong Trenka (21:37):
That's legendary now. It wasn't even
there, but I heard about it.
Ami Nafzger (21:41):
It was between a man and a woman. I was, like,
shocked. I was like, oh my gosh.It was between this American guy
and this European woman, and Iwas just like, woah. It was and
so I had never seen that.
Yeah. So it it was it wasinteresting to and that was
really a good introduction ofthe creative adoptive community
(22:03):
for me as well, you know,because I wasn't really I just
all all I wanted to do wascreate this organization.
Jane Jeong Trenka (22:10):
So you're just trying to do something.
Ami Nafzger (22:14):
It was interesting. So I was like, oh, okay. I
didn't know how to take that,but, I tried to stay out of it
as much as I could. So they allfled right away after the first
meeting. There were a coupleDauthies that stayed behind, you
know, they and it was me really,literally begging them to.
And then what happened was Iended up getting somehow I I had
(22:36):
some Korean friends and they gotme an interview with, a couple
newspapers such as JoongAngEobo, and it was a pretty
powerful, article. And then,some, TV documentaries that had
happened. And then from there, alot of Koreans came and joined
and wanted to help. It was itwas amazing because I had
(22:57):
several hundred phone calls tonavigate and a lot of, Koreans
that were willing to just bethere and help get the
organization started. And that'swhen I just kinda settled with
native Koreans to help with thismission.
And then when adoptees came andjoined, I would have them join
if they could, and that's howthe backbone, goal actually
(23:19):
started. Because of the many,many hundreds, I'd have to say a
good 600 volunteers made ofKorean to help, with this effort
in the very beginning andsustain and help me sustain it
for the first, I would have tosay, six, seven years. That's
that's how GOL has become very,very sustainable. We did a lot
(23:39):
of great things. We had sometours.
We held several conferences,international conferences for
adoptees in Korea and, a lot ofbirth searches, translation,
homestays, language classes,cultural classes. And it was not
just Korean adoptees from TheUS. It was, from, Europe and,
Australia and Canada. So it wasvery, very well received.
Jane Jeong Trenka (24:03):
Well, I wanna thank you so much for laying
that groundwork because it'sbeen really important to my life
to have the f four visa. So forpeople who don't know about the
f four visa, that's the visathat is almost as good as
citizenship. So we don't have tohave, our our visa stay isn't
connected to our job, and wedon't have to, like, go and run
(24:23):
to Japan. But, you know, like,basically, we can live here.
Right?
So do do you wanna talk a littlebit more about, like, that that,
process to get adoptees includedfor f four visa?
Ami Nafzger (24:34):
Well, the f four visa has changed quite a bit.
The process has. Because when wefirst worked with the Korean
government on it, they didn'thave a whole lot of regulations
around it. And it was just a newvisa at first where they it was
going to be open not just forKorean adoptees, but also for
Korean, I would have to sayKorean immigrants around the
(24:55):
world, excluding China andVietnamese Koreans. That was
what the understanding when itfirst came out.
I know there's a lot of protestsaround that, several years
after, and then I did not I havenot kept up with that to see
where that that piece is at. Butfor a lot of Korean Americans or
(25:16):
Australian Korean, CanadianKorean, and so on, a lot of,
Korean immigrants, if they canprove or Korean adoptees, if
they can prove that they areKorean, they are able to obtain
this f four visa. The f fourvisa basically was created to
allow you to stay in Korea forthe first two years without
(25:38):
having to leave the country. Andif you wanted to renew your
visa, you can renew it alsowithout having to leave the
country. So that has been justamazing.
It saved me a lot of money inthe end. And I'm sure a lot of
adoptees also Because I thinkone of the things, it just it
wasn't a welcoming environmentas well. Because I'm sure there
are a lot of even overseasKoreans that weren't adopted
(26:00):
felt like that they the youngergeneration would wanna stay in
Korea, but they could not aswell because we were foreigners.
So that process was just verysimple and easy. We just had to
go to the adoption agency andget a certificate proving that
we were adopted from theadoption agency.
And, so we had to prove rightour paperwork and make an
appointment with the adoptionagency. You still have to do
(26:23):
that today. However, though, Iknow there are a lot more
regulations around that. AndGOAL, who's actually been very
at the forefront and has been, Ithink they've handled, in
providing this information andhelping adopt these when they
come to Korea still today toactually they actually help
assist, with some of thatpaperwork. There are certain
(26:45):
things though when they didcreate this visa saying that if
you stay in Korea, there'scertain jobs you cannot hold and
you should not be doing.
And those were they kept onsaying the three d's. It was
like they did not want you to doa dirty job, a dangerous job,
and a Difficult. But, yes, adifficult job. There we go. So,
(27:05):
yes, we kept the same as threed's.
Jane Jeong Trenka (27:08):
I lived here for fifteen years on that visa,
and then I got my citizenship.So
Ami Nafzger (27:12):
The dual citizenship? Yeah. That's great.
Jane Jeong Trenka (27:16):
And thank you. Thank you to, all the
people who worked at Goldbecause that came true because
of Adopti Activism and pastorKim at, you know, continuously
working with us. So I'mbenefiting a lot from my work.
Thank you.
Ami Nafzger (27:31):
Well, that's what it's supposed to do, though. It
was supposed to provide somekind of rights for I felt like
it was a right for adoptees, youknow, just provide some kind of
rights and advocacy foradoptees, especially if they're
in trouble by the law or if theyjust need a phone. I mean, that
was, like, some of the basic,simplest things is to try to get
a phone. I always had to have anative Korean sponsor me so I
(27:54):
could have a phone in Korea.That was very frustrating.
So, just the small, simplestthings that you thought or we
take for granted, those arethings we could not have or not
allowed to have in Korea.
Jane Jeong Trenka (28:09):
So you built this incredible organization,
and you built a lot ofinfrastructure and helped out a
lot of people, and then youleft. So what made you decide
that you were gonna leave?
Ami Nafzger (28:19):
I think when I went back to crew when I went back to
The States, something opened outmy eye, and I realized I didn't
wanna teach English for the restof my life. And I just and I had
not really built a career in TheUS to to come to Korea and say,
hey, I'm a I'm a PR director, orI have experience in, you know,
(28:43):
HR or whatever, you know, or insocial work. And so I taught
English. I I worked full time,and I built Go on the side as a
volunteer the entire time I wasthere. In America, to be able to
work off of that in Korea, youknow, because I know a lot of
adoptees now are able to come toKorea.
They build it. They were smart.They built a career in The US
(29:06):
and then came over to Korea andwas able to do something. Or
maybe they were just all smarterthan me. That also is probably
possible.
But but, I just, so I was justbecause I like I said, I came
out right after college. I wentback to Korea, and I had no job
experience except just teachingEnglish. That was probably one
of the reasons why. Also, Ithink it's just because my my
(29:29):
brother had, by that time, hehad three children, and they
were very young. And my sisterhad children, and I just wanted
to I saw myself every yearmissing out.
So, I think that's what I that'swhat really triggered me to
actually come back to The Statesis just to be with my family and
getting to know them.
Jane Jeong Trenka (29:50):
And in The United States, you created
AdoptiHub. So can you tell alittle bit about that?
Ami Nafzger (29:56):
Well, actually, I didn't create AdoptiHub right
away. So I had came back toKorea or back to The US in
02/2003, and I have to say Istruggled a lot coming back to
The US. It was literally I hadno credit because I was gone for
more. I was gone for a longtime. I had to build a credit.
I couldn't even rent anapartment because I had no
(30:17):
credit. It took me a good fiveyears to actually settle back
down here in The US, trying tofigure out how to build a
credit, how to find a job, howto understand the American
market or job market, trying tofigure out what I wanna do with
my career and with my life. Iwas just I I felt like it was
(30:37):
like this reverse culture shockas well coming back to The US.
So I have to say, it's not easygoing back to The US after
living in a foreign country forso long. During that process, I
realized that if I were to buildbecause they kept on saying in
the job market, if you were tovolunteer at nonprofits, you
know, it helps with, you know,getting a job.
(30:59):
And I've started to volunteerquite a bit for a lot of Asian
organizations in Minnesota toactually help build references
and credibility here, in orderto get a job or a a career job
or figure out what I wanted todo. And it was great because it
was just learning about thedifferent Asian communities here
(31:20):
in in Minnesota, and then,learning about the nonprofits
and how they run here inMinnesota. From there, that's
when I well, someone taught meFacebook or tell me about
Facebook. I didn't know muchabout it. And that's when I
discovered Facebook.
I'm not much I'm not on it much,and I still don't know how to
use much of it. But as I am onFacebook, I would see
(31:42):
notifications about adopteesstruggling, adoptees asking lots
of questions, identityquestions, birth search
questions, just a lot ofquestions. And then just doing
research, trying to discover andfinding that, there's still
after, what? The Korean War hasstarted had had occurred almost
(32:04):
almost seventy years ago. Andafter almost seventy years,
still yet, there are no solidpost adoption services here for
adult Korean adoptees, in TheUS.
And that's when I realized,like, oh my goodness. And I and
I kinda waited. I I just Ididn't do much right away. I've
(32:26):
been back from Korea for almosttwenty years, and I kinda waited
for something to happen, andnothing really happened. I was
waiting for someone to buildsomething, and nothing happened.
And so that's when I decidedjust, in 02/2017, I did some
research. 02/2018, I decided todo some because I thought about
(32:47):
it a long time. I didn't wannajust, like, build something. And
I just had to do my research totry to figure out if this would
be successful and how and whatare people looking for and
needing. And 02/2018, I decidedto do the paperwork, and,
02/2019, we launched and did ourfirst event.
And then now we, have been, youknow, holding different events,
(33:10):
and we're gonna build buildslowly to be able to, provide,
some of the services that we aretrying to do. And at the same
time, we are trying to providesome events, just resources
online, virtual resources forpeople.
Jane Jeong Trenka (33:26):
What do you think it is that adoptees need
for services?
Ami Nafzger (33:29):
Some of the things that I had seen on Facebook
quite a bit, I see a lot ofadoptees, the way they express
themselves. They're they're inpain, and I think they have
nowhere to turn. It's hard tofind each other. And the great
thing is there's a couple greatresources out there when the
(33:50):
AICA gathering occurs. I thinkthat's a wonderful resource for
adoptees to meet each other.
Or there are small localorganizations within each within
some states, which are great foradoptees that live there. But
there are adoptees that don'tlive so close to these local
organizations. And so trying tofind a way to reach out to
adoptees virtually to let themknow that there are things that
(34:12):
exist for them, I am trying to,overcome that barrier. So some
of the things that we arelooking at is we are building a
BurSearch portal and a serviceportal. And that will take some
time, but this BurSearch portalis, something where we want to
provide a space for birthmothers or family to finally be
(34:37):
able to have a space to puttheir information in when
they're trying to find theirchildren.
So talking to adoption agenciesin the past couple years,
because I've gone to Korea a fewtimes now, and they've been
saying that birth families don'thave any place to put their
information to search for theirchildren. That's where I
(34:58):
realized we need to build aportal. And this portal would be
for birth families to be able toput their information in Korean
and upload the information oftheir children that they're
searching for in this portal. Atthe same time, the same portal,
adoptees would be able to uploadtheir information in, and we
will be building on the back endqueries and matching data to
(35:22):
actually start matchinginformation. So for families who
have agreed to search for theirfam for their children and
adoptees who have agreed tosearch for family, which both
parties and that's anotherthing.
We wanted to make sure that bothparties agree, that this would
be a safe place for them tosearch for each other. And then
as we start going through theinformation and data, we are
(35:46):
hoping that the more and morebrave families and the more and
more adoptees that startregistering through this portal
and information starts matching,we will be having caseworkers on
the back end and some technologyheavy, on the technology
developers to be able to queryand match a lot of this
information to start havingmatches. I believe that a birth
(36:09):
search is more than just findingeach other. I believe that it's
about beforehand preparing theadoptee to do that search,
preparing them of what couldhappen, providing them any kind
of therapy or counseling andsupport for that, and not just
in the beginning, but while ithappens. Also providing
translation as well as,providing, that support after
(36:35):
the reunion.
One of the things I find that alot of adoptees that when they
do reunite, there's a lot ofquestions, a lot more questions
that happen. And adoptees don'thave that support or resources
to try to figure out what justhappened. Why is my birth family
acting this way, why do I feelthis way, what happens if I do
(36:55):
this, or why is my family beingthis way. So having to deal with
all of that by yourself aloneand not understanding a whole
lot about Korea or the cultureor even your family, birth
family, and then even also doingmaybe with your adoptive family,
it's just it's a lot. And I justdon't think that people should
have to go through those ifthere could be resources built
(37:18):
for them.
They don't have to go throughthose alone anymore. So that's
what we are hoping to build.
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:24):
Well, that's amazing. I really look forward
to that, coming to fruition.About birth family search, I
think a small fraction of usprobably are reunited with our
birth families or will bereunited with our birth
families. And it seems like mostadopted people, though, they
(37:44):
have to live with not beingreunited. Right?
Ami Nafzger (37:48):
That's correct. And you're
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:50):
one of those people. Yeah, Amy?
Ami Nafzger (37:52):
Yes. I am.
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:54):
So, I mean, if if that's, like, the reality,
you know, like, how how do youhow do you deal with it?
Ami Nafzger (38:01):
Yeah. I think that's a good question. I think
every adoptee is different, andit really depends on how our
adoption journey is taking usand the resources that we may
have. And, for me, it was Imean, I initially went back to
Korea to actually do a birthsurgery. Growing up here in The
US, my adopted parents had died.
(38:22):
I lost my father was, had leftmy family when I was young,
about 10 years old. And my myadopted mother passed away
before I even graduated fromhigh school. And so I had been
on my own since I was 17. So forme, I think it was more I mean,
I would have to say it was veryimportant to me to find any kind
(38:43):
of biological parents, when Iwent to Korea. But as I lived in
Korea as long as I did and asmuch as I searched in Korea, and
as much media I was on withinKorea, and not having the right
documentation or information orall the information that I
needed to find my family.
(39:04):
It took me a long time toactually accept it because I was
living it every day and tryingto figure those pieces out. And
I I still today wish I couldfind my biological family. And I
think just coming back to TheStates, I had not tried. And I
think it just for me, it took mea long time to accept that. I
(39:24):
may never be able to find myfamily, but, it always made me
feel like a step closer to helpothers.
Like, it always made me happy toknow that others could find
their families. And that for mewas also really, really
important for some reason, thatother people could actually have
a piece of their soul. And Iwanna help so many more people.
(39:49):
I just realized that some thateither for me, it was not meant
to be, and it was something Ijust had to accept. But for
others, it doesn't hurt to try.
Jane Jeong Trenka (39:59):
That's so beautiful. You said that when
you're reading what adoptees areposting online, that you see a
lot of people in pain. Why doyou think that is?
Ami Nafzger (40:09):
I see adoptees either yelling or screaming,
asking for help. I see adopteestrying to get attention. I see
adoptees angry at each other orblaming each other for maybe
something that could be the mostsimplest miscommunication. What
in 02/2018, when I did when Idid the paperwork with our
lawyer to get AdoptiHub up, Ialso at that year, I was so
(40:33):
devastated because there werefour adoptees within, I would
have to say, the span of threemonths that had just committed
suicide. And that to me was verysad and devastating because it
just felt like we could haveprevented this somehow, someway.
Something has to be done. Andthat's not new that adoptees are
(40:55):
committing suicide. I thinkthere have been studies by some
other adoptees saying thatadoptees have a high rate of
committing suicide. And I didnot mention this, but beef when
I left for Korea to live thereseveral years ago, one of my
very close friends committedsuicide a month after I got to
(41:16):
Korea. And I had just given himall of my furniture so he could
go to college and live in adormitory.
And then a month later, I foundout he had committed suicide.
Hearing adoptees committedsuicide and then hearing
families, even years later,struggling because their child
had committed suicide, It's justso sad to me, and nothing's done
(41:37):
about it still. And then I'veheard so many adoptees that have
been brought to a mental healthinstitution because their
adoptive families put themthere, and then they are stuck
there and they're put on drugsthinking that, oh, let's just
put them in a mental healthinstitute and then take and then
they'll be fine. But, actually,I think the mental health
(41:58):
institute makes it worse foradoptees. And I know there are
adoptees there that should, youknow, be there.
And so those things have justour community are is hurting in
so many ways. And it feels likeour community is very invisible
to the mainstream. We as acommunity, as I'm trying to
apply for grants, it feels likewe don't get the equal
(42:23):
opportunity as much as anothergroup would. And I guess I'm
trying to yell and scream forour community to the mainstream.
Please understand who we are.
Please take the time to learnwho we are and and even to
assist us as we are applying forgrants so we can help our own
community.
Jane Jeong Trenka (42:43):
So, Amy, I I, lived with a guy who was very
beloved, and he ended his lifein Korea Three Years ago. It was
three years ago Oh. On NewYear's New Year's Eve morning,
he ended his life. And he sentme a text message twenty minutes
(43:03):
before he ended his life, and Iwas sleeping. Oh.
I didn't pick it up. I found itthe next morning, and I he died
with his, with my address in hispocket. So the police came to my
door first. I was, in touch withhis Korean family and his
(43:25):
American family, so I contactedthem because they are the people
who need to take care of things.And then when we found out where
the body was, I didn't havechildcare.
I had my my child with me. So wewent to the morgue and looked at
his body. I had to bring mychild in because I didn't have
anybody to take care of her.Like, he if I needed somebody to
(43:46):
take care of my child at thattime, like, he would have been
that person, but he was in thedrawer. So I really think about
this actually, the suicidething.
I think about him and how he wasand how he wasn't gonna ask for
help, and that was the kind ofperson he was. I'm still
thinking about this. It's gonnabe three years at the end of
(44:06):
this year thinking about, like,what could have been different.
Ami Nafzger (44:11):
Yeah. You know, and I think another thing is that we
need to recognize that. And whenit's being recognized, I just I
I feel like I feel like ourcommunity has so much pain and
anger. It leads us to only carefor ourselves and not to be kind
to each other. It feels like itmakes our community separated at
(44:35):
times.
Our community has so manyissues, and that's what's just
so frustrating. We have thishigh suicide rate. We have the
deportation piece where adoptersare being deported. And they
hadn't, you know, they didn'teven have a choice to come to
The US. They were just forced tocome here.
And then now being sent back tothe back to Korea without a
(44:55):
choice. The way we've beentreated, it just feels like
we're we're human beings, and wewere children, and now we're
adults. But yet, still, we wereexpected to come to a country
with a foreign family, foreignlanguage customs, and expected
to blend in. But then if we hadnot gotten our citizenship, then
(45:16):
we're expected to go back. Itjust feels like our the way our
community has just been treatedhasn't been very respectful.
And so I just feel like we needto do something. We need to
stand up and do something. Andfor me, the only way I can do
that is just by trying to createsome services or something for
(45:36):
adoptees to be able to have.
Jane Jeong Trenka (45:39):
That's so amazing how you've dedicated so
many years of your life tohelping other people. And and
now you have kids too. Right?
Ami Nafzger (45:48):
Yes. Two kids. My husband's a Korean adoptee, as
you know, Aaron. He's a techguy. He and I actually because
I've always wanted to adapt.
When I lived in Korea and I was,visiting my orphanage quite a
bit, that's when I realized Ireally, really want to adopt. I
wanted to adopt my orphanage.But, we did not adopt from Korea
(46:10):
in the end because that'sanother story. But the the
process of adopting from Koreathese days is extremely,
extremely complicated,difficult, and expensive. And
so, unfortunately, because I'molder, and so I ended up just we
had, there's like a, like, anage limit that you can adopt
from Korea.
(46:30):
So we ended up just adoptingfrom China Four Years ago, and
we adopted our daughter, Adeva,from China at, she was three and
a half. She is now seven. Yep.So Adeva is seven and Aiden is
11.
Jane Jeong Trenka (46:42):
So when when your youngest was five, you
started.
Ami Nafzger (46:46):
Yes.
Jane Jeong Trenka (46:47):
What about Adeva's birth family search? How
does that work in China?
Ami Nafzger (46:52):
Our first priority is to actually work with the
Korean adoptee community becauseit's it's one of the largest and
first international adoptioncommunity. However, we would
like to as soon as you know,down the road when we do have a
good program developed for theKorean adoptees, we would like
to expand it to otherinternational adoptees such as
Chinese adoptees and Guatemalanadoptees. But I just believe one
(47:14):
step at a time is important inorder to be successful. And so
one of the things is I thoughtabout in the back of my mind,
and when we did the adoptions,we had to go to China for a bit
for Deva. I asked a lot ofquestions about her birth panic.
The information we got wasabsolutely zero, nothing. She
was raised in the orphanagesince day one. So she was
(47:36):
literally found at the age ofone day, brought to the police
station, and then they broughther to the orphanage when she
was one day old. So she hadliterally grown up in the
orphanage since then, and webelieve it's from the you know,
how China has that law? Youknow, one child per family?
(48:00):
That law has changed now, Ithink, to two or more. Or that
was after Adeba was born. Theybelieve and we believe that she
was abandoned because of thosereasons. But it was interesting
because when we did the adoptionwith her, they had to make up an
excuse of why she was beingadopted out of the country. So
they said that she was a carrierof hepatitis b.
(48:22):
And so I said, oh, well, I'm acarrier of hepatitis b because I
found that out when I waspregnant with my son. When we
brought her here, I immediatelygot her checked out and test and
stuff. They said, no. She's nota carrier of hepatitis b. She's
fine.
I think they said that they hadto do that to get her out of the
country because if nothing waswrong with her, they'd have to
(48:43):
keep her in the country. I thinkthat's one of their laws. But,
when it comes to birth searchfor Deva, I have pictures of her
in the orphanage, and we havevideos, and we talk about it as
she's growing up. And, we alwaystell her, like, you know, mommy
was adopted and daddy wasadopted. And so well, I I think
(49:03):
it makes her feel good that she,you know, she's not the only
person that was adopted.
And we always talk about how nowwe're a family together, we
found each other. And so I I dowanna bring her to, China as she
grows, as she gets older, andwhen she's ready, visit her
orphanage and stuff. She isactually learning Chinese. I
(49:26):
have her because one of thethings that Jane, I think you
and I, I it would have beengreat for us to be able to go to
a Korean immersion school whenwe were growing up, and we
didn't have that. We didn't havethose resources.
And for Adeifa, I actually haveher attend a Chinese immersion
school. She absolutely loves it.She spoke a little Chinese here,
(49:47):
and she has been able tocontinue some of that, going
into school here. We hadactually signed up Aiden to go
to that school, and before weeven thought about adopting from
China, because we had intentionsadopting from Korea. So Aiden
had been going to the Chineseschool because we wanted him to
have to learn another language,and, I really wanted him to have
(50:08):
some role models that look likehim or to have his peers to look
like him too as well.
And so that was important to me,and I'm sure you understand
that, Jane, just growing up innon white society. It's it's
hard to always feel and lookdifferent. Jayden is very
precious to me because he is myonly as you know, so I had not
(50:30):
found my biological family. Sohe's my only biological drug to
me. So and Aaron, he has foundhis family.
I found his family ten yearsago.
Jane Jeong Trenka (50:40):
Oh my goodness. Wow. So do you do you
come and see his family?
Ami Nafzger (50:44):
Yes. We so what happened was his father had
committed suicide, and then theyhad to let a Aaron go. He has
two older brothers, and then thetwo older brothers saw what
happened to Aaron, how he wasput in the orphanage, and the
brothers bathed to stay in theto stay with the mom. And the
mom ended up get putting them inwith family members until she
(51:08):
could get back on her feet. Shehad to give her sons back to the
dad's family at that time, butwhen they got older, the family
did give the children back soshe could stabilize herself.
So one brother's four yearsolder and the other brother's
two years older. The one themiddle boy, he had been
(51:29):
searching for Aaron and couldn'tfind him and he committed
suicide. So yeah. So Aaron'sbiological dad and brother
commit suicide, and so he hasone brother left in his
biological. I'll communicatewith her once in a while in
Korea, but not often, and hesays it's because of the
language barrier.
We have actually partnered withprofessional conference
(51:51):
translators in Korea, and theyhave actually agreed to partner
with AdoptiHub to provide theirtranslators for free for
adoptees around the world.
Jane Jeong Trenka (52:02):
Wow. It's a lot that you're doing. As far
as, like, adoption itself, whatwhat do you think is needed for
the adoption process?
Ami Nafzger (52:10):
I have to share it with you. When I went through
the adoption process with thedata, I was I have to say I was
appalled. I was appalled abouthow things were done.
Jane Jeong Trenka (52:23):
What kind of things were happening?
Ami Nafzger (52:25):
Well, it we first started with the Korea program.
It was a very long, unclearprocess. We had part time
workers, four, agency workerssocial workers with us within
the span of nine months. Fourdifferent social workers. And
they were all part time, andthey weren't communicating with
each other, and it was veryfrustrating.
(52:47):
We had to submit our paperworkin four times, four different
times. They did not communicatethe process by saying, oh,
here's the process. You wouldwanna get all of this paperwork
and then do x, y, and z. Andthen you would want to submit
that again for this and this andthe same thing for this and
this. They did not communicatethat information.
(53:08):
So after the first time we gotall of the paperwork in, which
took a long time trying toobtain paperwork from all over
the place, couple months later,they said, oh, by the way, you
have to do it again for this.We're like, well, why didn't you
tell us that? Because wecould've done that at the same
time. And they said, oh, no. Youknow, that's just a formality we
have to do.
And it has to be within acertain time period. We're like,
(53:30):
okay. Well so then we did that.And then the third time, they
asked us again, and we're justlike, what? And, like, what are
you talking about?
We just did that, like, twice.And so it was just they did that
to us for four times. It wasvery frustrating, and I think
just as a user experience, itwas very unorganized, and there
wasn't a lot of communication.But yet the first thing upfront,
(53:54):
they wanted a whole lot ofmoney. And so that was very
frustrating.
And so we all know that money,it costs a lot of money. And we
all know that the process takesit's very, very cumbersome. And
I just didn't realize howcumbersome it was. And when I we
attended their required classes,as you may know, and those
(54:14):
required classes, I was appallednot so much by the agency, but
by the families that wereadopting because they showed a
video of adult adoptees talkingabout their difficulties. I had
some comments just saying that,you know, I think we should be a
little more respectful of theadoptees that, in the video that
had talked about theirexperience because they were
(54:36):
bad.
Because I think there were about20 families. They immediately
said, oh, that's not gonnahappen to our child. And I said,
well, you know, we're, like andmy husband and I, Aaron and I,
we're the only adult adopteesthere. Period. As we read them
elsewhere, brand new, going tobe parents or, you know, and
Caucasian, and they just it itdidn't sound like they had a
(54:58):
whole lot of cultural,experience or exposure.
And so they just a lot offamilies were saying, no. That's
not gonna happen to our child.We're gonna raise our child, and
our child's gonna be this way.And I kept on trying to speak in
a very nice gentle way bysaying, but, you know, I just
wanna let you know that, youknow, that there aren't gonna be
(55:19):
questions that your children aregonna ask. And I just felt like
they didn't they had their mindmade up.
And that was very frustratingfor me to see these families
this way. And so I just thought,I wonder if a lot of adoptive
families go through this andthey have their mind up made up
saying that they may have heardhorrible things, but they're not
gonna respect they're not gonnarespect the child as they get
(55:39):
older. So that just made mequestion a whole lot, and I just
felt like I wish the agencywould have stepped in a little
more and spoke up, but they didnot. They just kinda let it
happen. It it it just felt likeit was they couldn't prevented a
whole lot of things right thereupfront in those classes, and
they weren't.
So the other piece that was kindof interesting is we had we were
(56:02):
required to take severalclasses, online classes through
the through The Hague and, thefederal government. And all of
the questions were gearedtowards Caucasian or white
people that have no exposure todiversity or culture. It was not
geared towards a couple likeErin and I or even, biracial. So
(56:25):
it was questions like, have youever seen another Asian before?
Have you ever eaten any kind ofAsian food?
I mean, it was things like that,and I'm thinking, what the heck?
And I'm thinking, this is notthis is not good. And so one of
the things that I honestly,Jane, would love to do down the
(56:45):
road is I'd love to just provideinput. It would be nice to have
a a working task team of adultadoptees to say, we need
researchers and scholars andsay, we need to have input with
a hey about these tests and theclasses that should be required
for the adoption agencies. Thereshould be some change here on
(57:08):
The US side.
The questions and the classes, Ijust think, are not built or
created for parents to actuallyreally, really, really prepare
themselves for adoption.
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:20):
Like, just what you're saying about this
process where they're losingpaperwork and you've got four
different social workers within,like, nine months, how can they
possibly screen anybody? I mean,like, obviously, it's all about
money. You know? Thankfully, youand Aaron are good people, but,
like, there's a whole bunch ofpeople who are not. Right?
Like, how do they screen themout? They don't.
Ami Nafzger (57:40):
They don't know.
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:41):
They can't.
Ami Nafzger (57:42):
I don't they can't. And they I don't think they did.
And I don't know if it was justthat agency or what, but this is
a pretty well known agency andone of and the only agency that
does international adoption herein Minnesota right now. So
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:56):
Yeah. I mean, like, this just tells us how
much importance that they placeon on, like, this really life
changing decision that's gonnahappen to this kid. I mean, it's
all formalities. Right? I mean,like, they they try to keep
making these systems tighter andbetter and whatever.
But, like, if in the end, you'regonna staff it like that, what
can you do?
Ami Nafzger (58:14):
You know, I would love to see, Jane, I would love
to create a really good adoptioncurriculum and have it mandatory
work like, partner with the withThe Hague and have it mandatory
through the feds and for theadoption agencies to have to
follow this tight curriculum foradoptive parents. This is gonna
(58:36):
continue and continue, and thechildren are gonna grow up like
us and have so many questionsand so much confused, lost,
angry, depressed. That is justwhat's going on right now. One
of the things is I'm findingthat adopting to be kind to each
other. I think we're just all sofrustrated, and there's a lot of
anger out there, and we need tocome together and we're not.
Jane Jeong Trenka (59:00):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of lateral
violence. Like, we could be madat bigger things and more
powerful things, but that's,like, a little bit too hard, so
we're just mad at each other.
Ami Nafzger (59:11):
Yes. Probably.
Jane Jeong Trenka (59:13):
I mean, like, I'm I'm so glad you're in our
community and you're thinking insuch a big picture way about
taking it to The Hague andtaking it to the feds and so
forth because I feel like that'swhere we can make progress as
activists and communityorganizers. Like, what do you do
with all your rage and yoursadness and your despair over
seeing people die in ourcommunity? You know? It's like,
(59:35):
if if you can sort of elevate itto that level, it's it's
helpful. And then when we'rejust engaging in lateral
violence and hating on eachother and, you know, beating up
women and stuff like that, like,that's not helping.
Ami Nafzger (59:49):
No. No. I mean, there's a lot of talented
adoptees out there and a lot ofsmart adoptees out there. We are
just trying to find them andtrying to have them come and
join us so we can actuallybecome stronger.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:00:03):
So how can people find you if they if they
would like to join?
Ami Nafzger (01:00:07):
Just through our website. It's
www.adopteehub.0rg. But, yes,this is an all volunteer
organization. I also am avolunteer. I actually work full
time.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:00:19):
Amy, I just wanna express so much gratitude
for, this interview and for youbeing on planet Earth and doing
all this community service andactivism over the years. It's
such an honor. So thank you somuch for contributing to the
book and for spending your timewith us today.
Ami Nafzger (01:00:34):
Well, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I
really appreciate it, and it'sso great to hear your voice.
Thank you.
Narrator (01:00:42):
This recording was produced by University of
Minnesota Press. OutsidersWithin is a landmark publication
that explores transracialadoption and the heavy emotional
and cultural toll on those whodirectly experience it. For more
information, visitz.umn.edu/outsiderswithin.
For the adopted community, I think that there
has been, a lot of pain. There'sa lot of problems and issues
that need to be addressed suchas deportation, depression,
suicide, identity issues. Thatincludes, you know, just trying
to find your birth family and,just learning about who you are
and trying to feel a sense ofbelonging within your own
(00:27):
environment. It has been seventyyears since Korean adoption has
started, and yet still there isno services here in The U. S.
That can actually address theseissues for adult adoptees.
Jane Jeong Trenka (00:46):
Hello, everybody. My name is Jane Jung
Tranca. I was born in Seoul,South Korea, and I live here
now. But in between there, I wasadopted to Frazee, Minnesota.
Some people know me in theadoption community from, the
book Outsiders Within, which isin its second edition from
University of Minnesota Pressnow, and, some other people
(01:07):
might know me from Language ofBlood or Future Divisions, which
are memoirs that I wrote aboutmy adoption.
Ami Nafzger (01:13):
My name is Amy Nosker. I am a Korean adoptee,
and I was adopted to The UnitedStates, lived in Wisconsin until
high school. In college, that'swhen I discovered that I was,
Korean adoptee. And after that,I went back to, Korea to live
(01:33):
for some time. And then nowI've, returned back in 02/2003,
and I've been here residing inThe States.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:40):
I'm so pleased to talk with you, Amy,
because we're both Augsburggraduates.
Ami Nafzger (01:44):
Well, Jane, I have to say that I am actually also I
was also very honored toactually be in your book with,
Outsiders Within. And so I justwanna say that I'm I have been a
personal fan of yours. And, Ithink it's pretty ironic how you
and I were both went to OxfordCollege. And I just remember the
first time I met you. Actually,I it wasn't even a meeting.
(02:07):
I remember the first time Iliterally saw you, we were both
on the same dormitory floor inErnest Hall. And I think you and
I both walked out of ourdormitory rooms, and we both saw
each other down the hallway. Ithink we both just turned around
and went the other way becausewe didn't know what to do when
we saw each other. And I'llnever forget that. Oh, right.
(02:30):
It's pretty funny.
Jane Jeong Trenka (02:31):
Yeah. I think it's just really so we are both
in our very late forties. Right?
Ami Nafzger (02:36):
Yes.
Jane Jeong Trenka (02:37):
And I'm just, you know, just kinda thinking
about life. Like, this is, like,really I mean, like, I was I was
so, honored to have youcontribute to Outsiders Within
and in the first edition, I knewabout what you were doing and so
forth and, you know, like, lifekeeps going and I can kinda see,
like, how your life isunfolding. And I just think it's
(02:57):
really amazing. And it's socrazy that we were both at
Augsburg in Ursa on the SixthFloor sharing a bathroom. And I
I remember I remember when I sawyou too because you had this,
like, really cool black leatherjacket.
Yeah?
Ami Nafzger (03:12):
Oh, I don't remember that.
Jane Jeong Trenka (03:14):
You did. You had the coolest black leather
jacket and you had cool friends.And you were so cooperative, and
you were all up in the AsianAmerican, group, right, with
with Liefen Benson?
Ami Nafzger (03:27):
Yes. I had just joined because she had chased me
down my freshman year andsophomore year, and it was
junior was when I started to getreally heavily involved. But I
also did the same thing to LiHoon when I first met her or in
the hallway, and she kept onchasing me down. And I I was
scared when I saw another Asianface, and I turned around and
(03:49):
ran the other way.
Jane Jeong Trenka (03:51):
So how did you come around to, deciding
that you're gonna be involved inthat?
Ami Nafzger (03:56):
Because I think Lee Hoon was so persistent, and she
just she knew my name, and shejust kept on she just she
literally chased me down thehall saying, Amy, Amy, are you
Amy? And I was like, who is thislady? And so she was so
persistent with me every singleyear, and I finally just one day
stopped and said, okay. I'm justgonna have enough guts to talk
(04:18):
to this to this lady who lookslike me. And so I did, and she
was the one that really made mefeel like it was okay to talk to
her and to other people thatlooked like me.
And she was the one that made mefeel comfortable and realized
that there are other people thatlooks like me. And then when she
(04:39):
addressed the fact that I was anadoptee, which I never really
ever talked about or actually,was okay with. She then started
to introduce me and telling methat it's really important that
I should someday try to learnabout being Korean, where I came
from, and meeting other Koreansto learn about it. And so I
(04:59):
thought about it for a while,and that was probably, I feel
like, where I started to do my,search for who I really was.
Because of her, I think shereally, really changed my life
and opened up my mind.
And so after college is when Idecided to go back to Korea, and
I did. And when I went back toKorea, I didn't have anything
(05:22):
here in The US that was holdingme back. And I just felt, I
guess I just felt very alone andvery confused. And so I decided
just to go back to the to Korea,and I picked up everything. And
when I went to Korea, I wentthere with $200 in my pocket.
You're so brave. Applied. And, Ididn't know what I was doing. I
(05:48):
had a friend that actually toldme about she was a Korean
adoptive mother. She had told meabout this article or showed me
this article and encouraged meto apply to get a job in when I
went to Korea, and I did.
And it was teaching English, andI did that. So that was, I think
(06:09):
it's it's something I'll neverever would wanna change. It's it
was all about my adoptionjourney, and I'm really glad I
did that.
Jane Jeong Trenka (06:17):
Wow. So you tell the story in the book about
the trouble that happened to youin Gumi. Do you wanna go about
that?
Ami Nafzger (06:26):
Sure. I can't remember exactly what I said in
the book, but, so just to kindof backtrack from Gumi because
it because it kinda started outhow I got to Gumi. When I
arrived and so I was justsharing with you when I left for
Korea. I got on the airplane. Iit was a long flight.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing. I wasn't really prepared.
(06:49):
I didn't know what to expect. Ithink it was. I was 25 years
old.
I was pretty young. 24. I waspretty young. And, when I got
there, I was expecting to meet aperson that I thought I had
arranged to pick me up and goand live in Incheon and to,
teach English at a hagwon, whichis called a language center. So
(07:12):
I thought I had done the rightthings.
I had arranged everything. I haddone the paperwork for it. I
applied with the hagwon. Andwhen I arrived at the airport,
nobody nobody was there to pickme up. And I just kinda panicked
for a little bit.
And I was actually, I ended upsomehow I don't know, you know,
(07:32):
and some of this is such a blurnow because I don't know what I
did. I think I must have stayedat some hotel outside of the
airport because nobody picked meup for it was, like, two or
three days, I think. And I endedup trying to call them and call
them, and I was panicking andfreaking out because I didn't
know what to do. I didn't know asingle person in Korea. I didn't
(07:53):
know the language.
I didn't know anything aboutKorea. And so then they finally
came and picked me up, this manwho and then when he picked me
up, he was the guy that I hadactually arranged made my
arrangements. He apologized. Inmy arrangements before I came to
Korea, I was told that I wasgonna be staying with because I
was given an option. Do I wannastay in an apartment with other
(08:16):
English teachers, or do I wantto stay in a Korean family home
with, mother, father, and twochildren to learn about Korea?
And I chose the the later optionto actually, be in a homestay
with the families so I couldactually really learn and
embrace about the Korean cultureand family. When this gentleman
(08:38):
or man, I should say, not even agentleman. When he was bringing
me to his home, because I, I Iasked him about his wife and
children, and he said in the caras we were driving to his home
that he's actually not married.And he has no children and that
he was just living with hismother. And I was kinda freaked
(08:59):
out, and I was I didn't knowwhat and I said, but I thought
you said that, you know, becausewe had these conversations.
And this is what you had wroteme in an email saying that you
were married and you had twochildren. And he said no. And so
I said, well, what am I supposedto do? And he's like, well, you
are still gonna be teaching forme. I have children that come
(09:21):
and you'll be doing a lot ofprivate classes and you'll also
be teaching at the languageinstitute.
So I said, okay. But it actuallydidn't really turn out that way.
And so he first said you know,the first couple days, he didn't
bring me to the languageinstitute. And and then I kept
on asking, what should I do? Andthen, you know, when I met his
(09:44):
mother, she didn't speak a wordof English, but she just she
didn't talk to me either.
She wasn't she has she wasn'twelcome welcoming or friendly
and just never she never talkedto me. It was an apartment,
three bedrooms, and so I didhave my own bedroom. And so
finally, he, I just kept onasking and I was kind of, I
(10:05):
wasn't persistent, but maybe Iwas, you know, because I was
also very shy at that time too.I kept on asking, and he finally
brought me to the languageinstitute. I met the other
English teachers, and that'swhen I just thought and I met
the director, and I thought, ohmy goodness.
I wish I was here now, you know,with these other teachers
because this something's notright. I felt very uncomfortable
(10:27):
in the whole situation. And sowhen I felt very uncomfortable,
I expressed that to him, and Ijust kept on saying that I don't
feel comfortable. Well, he toldme that if I want to, then I can
just teach there. So I said,okay.
Well, can you show me how to getthere from your from your home?
And he said and so he says,well, here's the address. And
(10:49):
and this time, I mean, I wasbrand new to Korea, so I didn't
know how to read Korea. And hesaid, well, here's the address.
You'll here's the bus, andyou'll just have to listen to
the stop.
And I thought, well, I don'tknow what this means. I don't
know where the stop is. And so Idid I took the bus, but I had no
idea where I was. Everythinglooked exactly the same. I was,
(11:11):
finally, I went up to this womanand when I was on the bus
because the bus just kept ondriving and driving and driving.
She took my hand and she broughtme around and she brought me to
the languages too. And I got Iarrived to the hagwon and I
expressed how uncomfortable Ifelt. When I expressed myself to
the, Hong Kong director, he justsaid, you know, just take time
(11:33):
and, you know, mister Kim is agood guy, you know, and so,
you'll be fine. Three months hadgone by, and at that time, I
would receive letters,apparently from my family, my my
siblings, and some of myfriends, but I didn't know it.
And then my brothers and sistersstarted calling, and I had no
(11:53):
idea that they were calling.
And so, apparently, I found outlater when the phone rang that
my brother all of a sudden, mybrother, mister Kim said, Amy,
the phone is for you. And Isaid, oh. And so I answered the
phone and my brother Paul wasjust a little I think he was
extremely worried and so was mysister because they were
wondering what happened to me.And I and I thought, what do you
(12:14):
mean? And I and I said, I'msorry I haven't called you.
And they said, no. We've beentrying to call you. But mister
Kim said that he was going tolet you know that we've been
calling, and we've also sentmail. And I was not receiving
the phone calls or mail. And soI'd asked mister Kim about it.
He he did admit it. And, that'swhen he started telling me that
he wanted me he told me that heactually brought me there
(12:37):
because he he saw my picture andbecause Koreans are really big
on pictures of people and imageas Jane, as you know. And he
said that he wanted me to be hishe brought me over because he
wanted me to be his concubineand he wanted me to be his wife.
And I was obviously very youngat the time, and he was in his
(13:00):
forties. I think he was, like,42 or something like that.
And I was totally freaked out.And it was very uncomfortable,
and that's when I just, I guess,I I I I I knew this was not a
good place for me. And so I toldhim that I did not wanna be
there, and then he threatened tojust deport me from Korea. And
(13:23):
so I was devastated because Ihad barely gotten to know Korea
at that time, I felt, because I,you know, I was sitting here
trying to navigate my myenvironment, trying to make sure
that I was in a safe place. Iknew there there was something
not right, and I was trying to Iwas trying to trust the process,
and it didn't feel good to me.
(13:45):
And so I went back to thedirector, and the director said
fine. And so he brought he toldme he had a friend in Gumi,
which is, a smaller town southof Seoul. And so I said that's
fine. I will go there. And so hehad a friend there.
And when I was brought to Gumi,I went there and it was his
(14:05):
friend and he was a hagwondirector. Well, this director
was very kind, but you couldtell he would bring me to the
different government agenciesand have them a very large wad
of money. And he would say,Look, I'm bribing them. And very
proud of it, by the way. Look,I'm bribing the government
officials so you can stay herein the country.
(14:26):
And so, that's I was a littleshocked because I was learning,
a side of Korean culture that Idid not expect to learn very
quickly. And so I I I didn'tfully understand what was going
on at first, and I was justlike, I figured it out
afterwards. And there was, so Iwas teaching in this his name
(14:49):
was also mister Kim. And so Iwas teaching in his hagwon, and
there were many Korean, nativeKorean teachers as well
teaching. And then there was oneCanadian teacher, and he was a
male.
His name was Todd. Well, theCanadian male teacher, who was
(15:10):
white, was very, very he wasvery favored by mister Kim. As I
was teaching, I was I had toteach all of the all the,
factories. So it was all theengineers that put together our
phones and iPads or not iPads, Ishould say. Phones and tablets
and and well, at that time, itwas beepers and and so on.
(15:33):
So they're the ones that, theengineers from Samsung and LG,
the electronic companies that Ihad to teach. And I had some
great students, but that's whenfour months down the road well
well, between those four months,I had been working there. The
first month I got paid, and thenafter that, we did not get paid
(15:55):
and for several months, and theteachers were upset. And and in
Korea, as Jane would know, thatyou only get paid once a month.
And so and a very large lumpsum.
And so one of my students, whono longer became a was a student
of mine, had actually liked meand asked me out on a date, went
(16:17):
on a date with him, and then he,found out about how we were not
getting paid for several months,and then he went to the director
and demanded for me to get paid.And then, by that time, I was
just so I I just was nottrusting the process and
enjoying my life in Koreabecause I was trying so hard to
(16:38):
try to fit in. I had so manycomments on how, you know, from
students, you know, how I shouldbe Korean, that I am Korean, but
don't tell anybody that I'm anadoptee. And just so many
different, things that I wasexperiencing in Korea. Really
trying to fit in and trying tofigure out who I am and what my
(17:00):
life would have been like if Iwould have lived in Korea and
never been adopted.
That was where I wasexperiencing for several years.
And so I ended up staying atGumi for about a good year, a
little over a year. But duringthat time, I had I would have to
say, made the mistake by gettingengaged to this Korean man who
(17:20):
helped me try to get paid. And,I made a mistake because I was
just so alone, and I was soconfused of who I was and trying
to fit in and trying to haveanybody accept me because I felt
like everything was always myfault. And so I did that.
And so when I was engaged tohim, I moved in to an apartment,
(17:41):
but then it was not a good,decision of mine. And he became
very, very he would he would hewould I never saw him. He would
be working all day long, andthen he didn't want me to work
at all. And I wanted to teachbecause I was I was in a small
town, so I was bored out of mymind. And I had no one to talk
(18:02):
to.
But he wouldn't let me teach,and then he would bring his mom
and brother over. And and theywould want me to cook and clean
for them all day long. And itwas just, it was not a good fit
for me. It was not me. And sothat's when I started to visit
(18:24):
Seoul.
And I I visited Seoul everysingle weekend. I would leave,
you know, right, after work onFriday, and I would would return
on Sundays because my the manthat I was engaged to was never
home anyway. He was almost outdrinking on business trips or
whatever. And, so that's when Istarted meeting a lot of Korean
(18:46):
adoptees, and I discovered thatthere were adoptees that were
going through not the same exactsituation, but similar
situations as I am trying tofind and navigate Korea on our
own. And so that's when I feltlike that there needed to be
something in Korea to helpadoptees, because I knew I
wasn't the only one there or Iwasn't the only adoptee that was
(19:08):
gonna return back to Korea anddo the same thing to do some
soul searching or to just goback to Korea to do for various
reasons.
And so that's when I starteddoing the paperwork and writing
up a lot of ways, goals,mission, kind of like a business
plan of how I think that thereshould be a nonprofit built in
(19:29):
Korea for adoptees to assistthem. So I did that. I started
that in, '96. And then '97, Ireally started, you know,
providing this paperwork to andthen I met some government
officials in Korea in Seoul, andthat's when I started working
with them. And I tried meetingsome adoptees, a lot of
(19:50):
adoptees.
It was so much convincing justfor them to even join a meeting.
It was like begging people tojoin. And that's when I realized
that adoptees were just also notfeeling very stable. Not so I
don't you know, not mentally. Itwas more about the physical
piece and the the the the jobwise.
(20:10):
Because at that time, the f fourvisa, there was not a visa for
adoptees to be able to stay inKorea. So we had to leave the
country every three months. Iwent to Fukuoka, Japan a lot. I
did end up going to America andand Europe a few times too
during during those times I hadto renew my visa. So even though
(20:32):
that I had, a contract with theHAVORNE, it wasn't always very
stable, and there were timesthat I had to leave the country.
And so, yes, it wasn't, and itwas because we were known as
foreigners. So it was hard itwas hard to digest for me to
know that I was a foreigner and,I because I didn't feel like a
foreigner there. I felt like itwas my my birth country. It was
(20:56):
my motherland. It was it was aplace that I felt like I should
belong, I should be old.
But in reality, that was not thecase. And so in '98, I was able
to find several adopteesliterally begging them to come
at to a meeting and join me tohear about what we could do. We
had one meeting, and,unfortunately, there was a lot
(21:17):
of in fighting amongst adoptees.I didn't even know who I have
some adoptees, and I was veryconfused. Because I had never
seen you know, I had never I Iwas not aware.
Someone said that there's alwaysfighting with adoptives, but, I
was not aware of that and Ididn't I I guess I didn't
believe it. But there wasactually even an actual physical
fight as well.
Jane Jeong Trenka (21:37):
That's legendary now. It wasn't even
there, but I heard about it.
Ami Nafzger (21:41):
It was between a man and a woman. I was, like,
shocked. I was like, oh my gosh.It was between this American guy
and this European woman, and Iwas just like, woah. It was and
so I had never seen that.
Yeah. So it it was it wasinteresting to and that was
really a good introduction ofthe creative adoptive community
(22:03):
for me as well, you know,because I wasn't really I just
all all I wanted to do wascreate this organization.
Jane Jeong Trenka (22:10):
So you're just trying to do something.
Ami Nafzger (22:14):
It was interesting. So I was like, oh, okay. I
didn't know how to take that,but, I tried to stay out of it
as much as I could. So they allfled right away after the first
meeting. There were a coupleDauthies that stayed behind, you
know, they and it was me really,literally begging them to.
And then what happened was Iended up getting somehow I I had
(22:36):
some Korean friends and they gotme an interview with, a couple
newspapers such as JoongAngEobo, and it was a pretty
powerful, article. And then,some, TV documentaries that had
happened. And then from there, alot of Koreans came and joined
and wanted to help. It was itwas amazing because I had
(22:57):
several hundred phone calls tonavigate and a lot of, Koreans
that were willing to just bethere and help get the
organization started. And that'swhen I just kinda settled with
native Koreans to help with thismission.
And then when adoptees came andjoined, I would have them join
if they could, and that's howthe backbone, goal actually
(23:19):
started. Because of the many,many hundreds, I'd have to say a
good 600 volunteers made ofKorean to help, with this effort
in the very beginning andsustain and help me sustain it
for the first, I would have tosay, six, seven years. That's
that's how GOL has become very,very sustainable. We did a lot
(23:39):
of great things. We had sometours.
We held several conferences,international conferences for
adoptees in Korea and, a lot ofbirth searches, translation,
homestays, language classes,cultural classes. And it was not
just Korean adoptees from TheUS. It was, from, Europe and,
Australia and Canada. So it wasvery, very well received.
Jane Jeong Trenka (24:03):
Well, I wanna thank you so much for laying
that groundwork because it'sbeen really important to my life
to have the f four visa. So forpeople who don't know about the
f four visa, that's the visathat is almost as good as
citizenship. So we don't have tohave, our our visa stay isn't
connected to our job, and wedon't have to, like, go and run
(24:23):
to Japan. But, you know, like,basically, we can live here.
Right?
So do do you wanna talk a littlebit more about, like, that that,
process to get adoptees includedfor f four visa?
Ami Nafzger (24:34):
Well, the f four visa has changed quite a bit.
The process has. Because when wefirst worked with the Korean
government on it, they didn'thave a whole lot of regulations
around it. And it was just a newvisa at first where they it was
going to be open not just forKorean adoptees, but also for
Korean, I would have to sayKorean immigrants around the
(24:55):
world, excluding China andVietnamese Koreans. That was
what the understanding when itfirst came out.
I know there's a lot of protestsaround that, several years
after, and then I did not I havenot kept up with that to see
where that that piece is at. Butfor a lot of Korean Americans or
(25:16):
Australian Korean, CanadianKorean, and so on, a lot of,
Korean immigrants, if they canprove or Korean adoptees, if
they can prove that they areKorean, they are able to obtain
this f four visa. The f fourvisa basically was created to
allow you to stay in Korea forthe first two years without
(25:38):
having to leave the country. Andif you wanted to renew your
visa, you can renew it alsowithout having to leave the
country. So that has been justamazing.
It saved me a lot of money inthe end. And I'm sure a lot of
adoptees also Because I thinkone of the things, it just it
wasn't a welcoming environmentas well. Because I'm sure there
are a lot of even overseasKoreans that weren't adopted
(26:00):
felt like that they the youngergeneration would wanna stay in
Korea, but they could not aswell because we were foreigners.
So that process was just verysimple and easy. We just had to
go to the adoption agency andget a certificate proving that
we were adopted from theadoption agency.
And, so we had to prove rightour paperwork and make an
appointment with the adoptionagency. You still have to do
(26:23):
that today. However, though, Iknow there are a lot more
regulations around that. AndGOAL, who's actually been very
at the forefront and has been, Ithink they've handled, in
providing this information andhelping adopt these when they
come to Korea still today toactually they actually help
assist, with some of thatpaperwork. There are certain
(26:45):
things though when they didcreate this visa saying that if
you stay in Korea, there'scertain jobs you cannot hold and
you should not be doing.
And those were they kept onsaying the three d's. It was
like they did not want you to doa dirty job, a dangerous job,
and a Difficult. But, yes, adifficult job. There we go. So,
(27:05):
yes, we kept the same as threed's.
Jane Jeong Trenka (27:08):
I lived here for fifteen years on that visa,
and then I got my citizenship.So
Ami Nafzger (27:12):
The dual citizenship? Yeah. That's great.
Jane Jeong Trenka (27:16):
And thank you. Thank you to, all the
people who worked at Goldbecause that came true because
of Adopti Activism and pastorKim at, you know, continuously
working with us. So I'mbenefiting a lot from my work.
Thank you.
Ami Nafzger (27:31):
Well, that's what it's supposed to do, though. It
was supposed to provide somekind of rights for I felt like
it was a right for adoptees, youknow, just provide some kind of
rights and advocacy foradoptees, especially if they're
in trouble by the law or if theyjust need a phone. I mean, that
was, like, some of the basic,simplest things is to try to get
a phone. I always had to have anative Korean sponsor me so I
(27:54):
could have a phone in Korea.That was very frustrating.
So, just the small, simplestthings that you thought or we
take for granted, those arethings we could not have or not
allowed to have in Korea.
Jane Jeong Trenka (28:09):
So you built this incredible organization,
and you built a lot ofinfrastructure and helped out a
lot of people, and then youleft. So what made you decide
that you were gonna leave?
Ami Nafzger (28:19):
I think when I went back to crew when I went back to
The States, something opened outmy eye, and I realized I didn't
wanna teach English for the restof my life. And I just and I had
not really built a career in TheUS to to come to Korea and say,
hey, I'm a I'm a PR director, orI have experience in, you know,
(28:43):
HR or whatever, you know, or insocial work. And so I taught
English. I I worked full time,and I built Go on the side as a
volunteer the entire time I wasthere. In America, to be able to
work off of that in Korea, youknow, because I know a lot of
adoptees now are able to come toKorea.
They build it. They were smart.They built a career in The US
(29:06):
and then came over to Korea andwas able to do something. Or
maybe they were just all smarterthan me. That also is probably
possible.
But but, I just, so I was justbecause I like I said, I came
out right after college. I wentback to Korea, and I had no job
experience except just teachingEnglish. That was probably one
of the reasons why. Also, Ithink it's just because my my
(29:29):
brother had, by that time, hehad three children, and they
were very young. And my sisterhad children, and I just wanted
to I saw myself every yearmissing out.
So, I think that's what I that'swhat really triggered me to
actually come back to The Statesis just to be with my family and
getting to know them.
Jane Jeong Trenka (29:50):
And in The United States, you created
AdoptiHub. So can you tell alittle bit about that?
Ami Nafzger (29:56):
Well, actually, I didn't create AdoptiHub right
away. So I had came back toKorea or back to The US in
02/2003, and I have to say Istruggled a lot coming back to
The US. It was literally I hadno credit because I was gone for
more. I was gone for a longtime. I had to build a credit.
I couldn't even rent anapartment because I had no
(30:17):
credit. It took me a good fiveyears to actually settle back
down here in The US, trying tofigure out how to build a
credit, how to find a job, howto understand the American
market or job market, trying tofigure out what I wanna do with
my career and with my life. Iwas just I I felt like it was
(30:37):
like this reverse culture shockas well coming back to The US.
So I have to say, it's not easygoing back to The US after
living in a foreign country forso long. During that process, I
realized that if I were to buildbecause they kept on saying in
the job market, if you were tovolunteer at nonprofits, you
know, it helps with, you know,getting a job.
(30:59):
And I've started to volunteerquite a bit for a lot of Asian
organizations in Minnesota toactually help build references
and credibility here, in orderto get a job or a a career job
or figure out what I wanted todo. And it was great because it
was just learning about thedifferent Asian communities here
(31:20):
in in Minnesota, and then,learning about the nonprofits
and how they run here inMinnesota. From there, that's
when I well, someone taught meFacebook or tell me about
Facebook. I didn't know muchabout it. And that's when I
discovered Facebook.
I'm not much I'm not on it much,and I still don't know how to
use much of it. But as I am onFacebook, I would see
(31:42):
notifications about adopteesstruggling, adoptees asking lots
of questions, identityquestions, birth search
questions, just a lot ofquestions. And then just doing
research, trying to discover andfinding that, there's still
after, what? The Korean War hasstarted had had occurred almost
(32:04):
almost seventy years ago. Andafter almost seventy years,
still yet, there are no solidpost adoption services here for
adult Korean adoptees, in TheUS.
And that's when I realized,like, oh my goodness. And I and
I kinda waited. I I just Ididn't do much right away. I've
(32:26):
been back from Korea for almosttwenty years, and I kinda waited
for something to happen, andnothing really happened. I was
waiting for someone to buildsomething, and nothing happened.
And so that's when I decidedjust, in 02/2017, I did some
research. 02/2018, I decided todo some because I thought about
(32:47):
it a long time. I didn't wannajust, like, build something. And
I just had to do my research totry to figure out if this would
be successful and how and whatare people looking for and
needing. And 02/2018, I decidedto do the paperwork, and,
02/2019, we launched and did ourfirst event.
And then now we, have been, youknow, holding different events,
(33:10):
and we're gonna build buildslowly to be able to, provide,
some of the services that we aretrying to do. And at the same
time, we are trying to providesome events, just resources
online, virtual resources forpeople.
Jane Jeong Trenka (33:26):
What do you think it is that adoptees need
for services?
Ami Nafzger (33:29):
Some of the things that I had seen on Facebook
quite a bit, I see a lot ofadoptees, the way they express
themselves. They're they're inpain, and I think they have
nowhere to turn. It's hard tofind each other. And the great
thing is there's a couple greatresources out there when the
(33:50):
AICA gathering occurs. I thinkthat's a wonderful resource for
adoptees to meet each other.
Or there are small localorganizations within each within
some states, which are great foradoptees that live there. But
there are adoptees that don'tlive so close to these local
organizations. And so trying tofind a way to reach out to
adoptees virtually to let themknow that there are things that
(34:12):
exist for them, I am trying to,overcome that barrier. So some
of the things that we arelooking at is we are building a
BurSearch portal and a serviceportal. And that will take some
time, but this BurSearch portalis, something where we want to
provide a space for birthmothers or family to finally be
(34:37):
able to have a space to puttheir information in when
they're trying to find theirchildren.
So talking to adoption agenciesin the past couple years,
because I've gone to Korea a fewtimes now, and they've been
saying that birth families don'thave any place to put their
information to search for theirchildren. That's where I
(34:58):
realized we need to build aportal. And this portal would be
for birth families to be able toput their information in Korean
and upload the information oftheir children that they're
searching for in this portal. Atthe same time, the same portal,
adoptees would be able to uploadtheir information in, and we
will be building on the back endqueries and matching data to
(35:22):
actually start matchinginformation. So for families who
have agreed to search for theirfam for their children and
adoptees who have agreed tosearch for family, which both
parties and that's anotherthing.
We wanted to make sure that bothparties agree, that this would
be a safe place for them tosearch for each other. And then
as we start going through theinformation and data, we are
(35:46):
hoping that the more and morebrave families and the more and
more adoptees that startregistering through this portal
and information starts matching,we will be having caseworkers on
the back end and some technologyheavy, on the technology
developers to be able to queryand match a lot of this
information to start havingmatches. I believe that a birth
(36:09):
search is more than just findingeach other. I believe that it's
about beforehand preparing theadoptee to do that search,
preparing them of what couldhappen, providing them any kind
of therapy or counseling andsupport for that, and not just
in the beginning, but while ithappens. Also providing
translation as well as,providing, that support after
(36:35):
the reunion.
One of the things I find that alot of adoptees that when they
do reunite, there's a lot ofquestions, a lot more questions
that happen. And adoptees don'thave that support or resources
to try to figure out what justhappened. Why is my birth family
acting this way, why do I feelthis way, what happens if I do
(36:55):
this, or why is my family beingthis way. So having to deal with
all of that by yourself aloneand not understanding a whole
lot about Korea or the cultureor even your family, birth
family, and then even also doingmaybe with your adoptive family,
it's just it's a lot. And I justdon't think that people should
have to go through those ifthere could be resources built
(37:18):
for them.
They don't have to go throughthose alone anymore. So that's
what we are hoping to build.
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:24):
Well, that's amazing. I really look forward
to that, coming to fruition.About birth family search, I
think a small fraction of usprobably are reunited with our
birth families or will bereunited with our birth
families. And it seems like mostadopted people, though, they
(37:44):
have to live with not beingreunited. Right?
Ami Nafzger (37:48):
That's correct. And you're
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:50):
one of those people. Yeah, Amy?
Ami Nafzger (37:52):
Yes. I am.
Jane Jeong Trenka (37:54):
So, I mean, if if that's, like, the reality,
you know, like, how how do youhow do you deal with it?
Ami Nafzger (38:01):
Yeah. I think that's a good question. I think
every adoptee is different, andit really depends on how our
adoption journey is taking usand the resources that we may
have. And, for me, it was Imean, I initially went back to
Korea to actually do a birthsurgery. Growing up here in The
US, my adopted parents had died.
(38:22):
I lost my father was, had leftmy family when I was young,
about 10 years old. And my myadopted mother passed away
before I even graduated fromhigh school. And so I had been
on my own since I was 17. So forme, I think it was more I mean,
I would have to say it was veryimportant to me to find any kind
(38:43):
of biological parents, when Iwent to Korea. But as I lived in
Korea as long as I did and asmuch as I searched in Korea, and
as much media I was on withinKorea, and not having the right
documentation or information orall the information that I
needed to find my family.
(39:04):
It took me a long time toactually accept it because I was
living it every day and tryingto figure those pieces out. And
I I still today wish I couldfind my biological family. And I
think just coming back to TheStates, I had not tried. And I
think it just for me, it took mea long time to accept that. I
(39:24):
may never be able to find myfamily, but, it always made me
feel like a step closer to helpothers.
Like, it always made me happy toknow that others could find
their families. And that for mewas also really, really
important for some reason, thatother people could actually have
a piece of their soul. And Iwanna help so many more people.
(39:49):
I just realized that some thateither for me, it was not meant
to be, and it was something Ijust had to accept. But for
others, it doesn't hurt to try.
Jane Jeong Trenka (39:59):
That's so beautiful. You said that when
you're reading what adoptees areposting online, that you see a
lot of people in pain. Why doyou think that is?
Ami Nafzger (40:09):
I see adoptees either yelling or screaming,
asking for help. I see adopteestrying to get attention. I see
adoptees angry at each other orblaming each other for maybe
something that could be the mostsimplest miscommunication. What
in 02/2018, when I did when Idid the paperwork with our
lawyer to get AdoptiHub up, Ialso at that year, I was so
(40:33):
devastated because there werefour adoptees within, I would
have to say, the span of threemonths that had just committed
suicide. And that to me was verysad and devastating because it
just felt like we could haveprevented this somehow, someway.
Something has to be done. Andthat's not new that adoptees are
(40:55):
committing suicide. I thinkthere have been studies by some
other adoptees saying thatadoptees have a high rate of
committing suicide. And I didnot mention this, but beef when
I left for Korea to live thereseveral years ago, one of my
very close friends committedsuicide a month after I got to
(41:16):
Korea. And I had just given himall of my furniture so he could
go to college and live in adormitory.
And then a month later, I foundout he had committed suicide.
Hearing adoptees committedsuicide and then hearing
families, even years later,struggling because their child
had committed suicide, It's justso sad to me, and nothing's done
(41:37):
about it still. And then I'veheard so many adoptees that have
been brought to a mental healthinstitution because their
adoptive families put themthere, and then they are stuck
there and they're put on drugsthinking that, oh, let's just
put them in a mental healthinstitute and then take and then
they'll be fine. But, actually,I think the mental health
(41:58):
institute makes it worse foradoptees. And I know there are
adoptees there that should, youknow, be there.
And so those things have justour community are is hurting in
so many ways. And it feels likeour community is very invisible
to the mainstream. We as acommunity, as I'm trying to
apply for grants, it feels likewe don't get the equal
(42:23):
opportunity as much as anothergroup would. And I guess I'm
trying to yell and scream forour community to the mainstream.
Please understand who we are.
Please take the time to learnwho we are and and even to
assist us as we are applying forgrants so we can help our own
community.
Jane Jeong Trenka (42:43):
So, Amy, I I, lived with a guy who was very
beloved, and he ended his lifein Korea Three Years ago. It was
three years ago Oh. On NewYear's New Year's Eve morning,
he ended his life. And he sentme a text message twenty minutes
(43:03):
before he ended his life, and Iwas sleeping. Oh.
I didn't pick it up. I found itthe next morning, and I he died
with his, with my address in hispocket. So the police came to my
door first. I was, in touch withhis Korean family and his
(43:25):
American family, so I contactedthem because they are the people
who need to take care of things.And then when we found out where
the body was, I didn't havechildcare.
I had my my child with me. So wewent to the morgue and looked at
his body. I had to bring mychild in because I didn't have
anybody to take care of her.Like, he if I needed somebody to
(43:46):
take care of my child at thattime, like, he would have been
that person, but he was in thedrawer. So I really think about
this actually, the suicidething.
I think about him and how he wasand how he wasn't gonna ask for
help, and that was the kind ofperson he was. I'm still
thinking about this. It's gonnabe three years at the end of
(44:06):
this year thinking about, like,what could have been different.
Ami Nafzger (44:11):
Yeah. You know, and I think another thing is that we
need to recognize that. And whenit's being recognized, I just I
I feel like I feel like ourcommunity has so much pain and
anger. It leads us to only carefor ourselves and not to be kind
to each other. It feels like itmakes our community separated at
(44:35):
times.
Our community has so manyissues, and that's what's just
so frustrating. We have thishigh suicide rate. We have the
deportation piece where adoptersare being deported. And they
hadn't, you know, they didn'teven have a choice to come to
The US. They were just forced tocome here.
And then now being sent back tothe back to Korea without a
(44:55):
choice. The way we've beentreated, it just feels like
we're we're human beings, and wewere children, and now we're
adults. But yet, still, we wereexpected to come to a country
with a foreign family, foreignlanguage customs, and expected
to blend in. But then if we hadnot gotten our citizenship, then
(45:16):
we're expected to go back. Itjust feels like our the way our
community has just been treatedhasn't been very respectful.
And so I just feel like we needto do something. We need to
stand up and do something. Andfor me, the only way I can do
that is just by trying to createsome services or something for
(45:36):
adoptees to be able to have.
Jane Jeong Trenka (45:39):
That's so amazing how you've dedicated so
many years of your life tohelping other people. And and
now you have kids too. Right?
Ami Nafzger (45:48):
Yes. Two kids. My husband's a Korean adoptee, as
you know, Aaron. He's a techguy. He and I actually because
I've always wanted to adapt.
When I lived in Korea and I was,visiting my orphanage quite a
bit, that's when I realized Ireally, really want to adopt. I
wanted to adopt my orphanage.But, we did not adopt from Korea
(46:10):
in the end because that'sanother story. But the the
process of adopting from Koreathese days is extremely,
extremely complicated,difficult, and expensive. And
so, unfortunately, because I'molder, and so I ended up just we
had, there's like a, like, anage limit that you can adopt
from Korea.
(46:30):
So we ended up just adoptingfrom China Four Years ago, and
we adopted our daughter, Adeva,from China at, she was three and
a half. She is now seven. Yep.So Adeva is seven and Aiden is
11.
Jane Jeong Trenka (46:42):
So when when your youngest was five, you
started.
Ami Nafzger (46:46):
Yes.
Jane Jeong Trenka (46:47):
What about Adeva's birth family search? How
does that work in China?
Ami Nafzger (46:52):
Our first priority is to actually work with the
Korean adoptee community becauseit's it's one of the largest and
first international adoptioncommunity. However, we would
like to as soon as you know,down the road when we do have a
good program developed for theKorean adoptees, we would like
to expand it to otherinternational adoptees such as
Chinese adoptees and Guatemalanadoptees. But I just believe one
(47:14):
step at a time is important inorder to be successful. And so
one of the things is I thoughtabout in the back of my mind,
and when we did the adoptions,we had to go to China for a bit
for Deva. I asked a lot ofquestions about her birth panic.
The information we got wasabsolutely zero, nothing. She
was raised in the orphanagesince day one. So she was
(47:36):
literally found at the age ofone day, brought to the police
station, and then they broughther to the orphanage when she
was one day old. So she hadliterally grown up in the
orphanage since then, and webelieve it's from the you know,
how China has that law? Youknow, one child per family?
(48:00):
That law has changed now, Ithink, to two or more. Or that
was after Adeba was born. Theybelieve and we believe that she
was abandoned because of thosereasons. But it was interesting
because when we did the adoptionwith her, they had to make up an
excuse of why she was beingadopted out of the country. So
they said that she was a carrierof hepatitis b.
(48:22):
And so I said, oh, well, I'm acarrier of hepatitis b because I
found that out when I waspregnant with my son. When we
brought her here, I immediatelygot her checked out and test and
stuff. They said, no. She's nota carrier of hepatitis b. She's
fine.
I think they said that they hadto do that to get her out of the
country because if nothing waswrong with her, they'd have to
(48:43):
keep her in the country. I thinkthat's one of their laws. But,
when it comes to birth searchfor Deva, I have pictures of her
in the orphanage, and we havevideos, and we talk about it as
she's growing up. And, we alwaystell her, like, you know, mommy
was adopted and daddy wasadopted. And so well, I I think
(49:03):
it makes her feel good that she,you know, she's not the only
person that was adopted.
And we always talk about how nowwe're a family together, we
found each other. And so I I dowanna bring her to, China as she
grows, as she gets older, andwhen she's ready, visit her
orphanage and stuff. She isactually learning Chinese. I
(49:26):
have her because one of thethings that Jane, I think you
and I, I it would have beengreat for us to be able to go to
a Korean immersion school whenwe were growing up, and we
didn't have that. We didn't havethose resources.
And for Adeifa, I actually haveher attend a Chinese immersion
school. She absolutely loves it.She spoke a little Chinese here,
(49:47):
and she has been able tocontinue some of that, going
into school here. We hadactually signed up Aiden to go
to that school, and before weeven thought about adopting from
China, because we had intentionsadopting from Korea. So Aiden
had been going to the Chineseschool because we wanted him to
have to learn another language,and, I really wanted him to have
(50:08):
some role models that look likehim or to have his peers to look
like him too as well.
And so that was important to me,and I'm sure you understand
that, Jane, just growing up innon white society. It's it's
hard to always feel and lookdifferent. Jayden is very
precious to me because he is myonly as you know, so I had not
(50:30):
found my biological family. Sohe's my only biological drug to
me. So and Aaron, he has foundhis family.
I found his family ten yearsago.
Jane Jeong Trenka (50:40):
Oh my goodness. Wow. So do you do you
come and see his family?
Ami Nafzger (50:44):
Yes. We so what happened was his father had
committed suicide, and then theyhad to let a Aaron go. He has
two older brothers, and then thetwo older brothers saw what
happened to Aaron, how he wasput in the orphanage, and the
brothers bathed to stay in theto stay with the mom. And the
mom ended up get putting them inwith family members until she
(51:08):
could get back on her feet. Shehad to give her sons back to the
dad's family at that time, butwhen they got older, the family
did give the children back soshe could stabilize herself.
So one brother's four yearsolder and the other brother's
two years older. The one themiddle boy, he had been
(51:29):
searching for Aaron and couldn'tfind him and he committed
suicide. So yeah. So Aaron'sbiological dad and brother
commit suicide, and so he hasone brother left in his
biological. I'll communicatewith her once in a while in
Korea, but not often, and hesays it's because of the
language barrier.
We have actually partnered withprofessional conference
(51:51):
translators in Korea, and theyhave actually agreed to partner
with AdoptiHub to provide theirtranslators for free for
adoptees around the world.
Jane Jeong Trenka (52:02):
Wow. It's a lot that you're doing. As far
as, like, adoption itself, whatwhat do you think is needed for
the adoption process?
Ami Nafzger (52:10):
I have to share it with you. When I went through
the adoption process with thedata, I was I have to say I was
appalled. I was appalled abouthow things were done.
Jane Jeong Trenka (52:23):
What kind of things were happening?
Ami Nafzger (52:25):
Well, it we first started with the Korea program.
It was a very long, unclearprocess. We had part time
workers, four, agency workerssocial workers with us within
the span of nine months. Fourdifferent social workers. And
they were all part time, andthey weren't communicating with
each other, and it was veryfrustrating.
(52:47):
We had to submit our paperworkin four times, four different
times. They did not communicatethe process by saying, oh,
here's the process. You wouldwanna get all of this paperwork
and then do x, y, and z. Andthen you would want to submit
that again for this and this andthe same thing for this and
this. They did not communicatethat information.
(53:08):
So after the first time we gotall of the paperwork in, which
took a long time trying toobtain paperwork from all over
the place, couple months later,they said, oh, by the way, you
have to do it again for this.We're like, well, why didn't you
tell us that? Because wecould've done that at the same
time. And they said, oh, no. Youknow, that's just a formality we
have to do.
And it has to be within acertain time period. We're like,
(53:30):
okay. Well so then we did that.And then the third time, they
asked us again, and we're justlike, what? And, like, what are
you talking about?
We just did that, like, twice.And so it was just they did that
to us for four times. It wasvery frustrating, and I think
just as a user experience, itwas very unorganized, and there
wasn't a lot of communication.But yet the first thing upfront,
(53:54):
they wanted a whole lot ofmoney. And so that was very
frustrating.
And so we all know that money,it costs a lot of money. And we
all know that the process takesit's very, very cumbersome. And
I just didn't realize howcumbersome it was. And when I we
attended their required classes,as you may know, and those
(54:14):
required classes, I was appallednot so much by the agency, but
by the families that wereadopting because they showed a
video of adult adoptees talkingabout their difficulties. I had
some comments just saying that,you know, I think we should be a
little more respectful of theadoptees that, in the video that
had talked about theirexperience because they were
(54:36):
bad.
Because I think there were about20 families. They immediately
said, oh, that's not gonnahappen to our child. And I said,
well, you know, we're, like andmy husband and I, Aaron and I,
we're the only adult adopteesthere. Period. As we read them
elsewhere, brand new, going tobe parents or, you know, and
Caucasian, and they just it itdidn't sound like they had a
(54:58):
whole lot of cultural,experience or exposure.
And so they just a lot offamilies were saying, no. That's
not gonna happen to our child.We're gonna raise our child, and
our child's gonna be this way.And I kept on trying to speak in
a very nice gentle way bysaying, but, you know, I just
wanna let you know that, youknow, that there aren't gonna be
(55:19):
questions that your children aregonna ask. And I just felt like
they didn't they had their mindmade up.
And that was very frustratingfor me to see these families
this way. And so I just thought,I wonder if a lot of adoptive
families go through this andthey have their mind up made up
saying that they may have heardhorrible things, but they're not
gonna respect they're not gonnarespect the child as they get
(55:39):
older. So that just made mequestion a whole lot, and I just
felt like I wish the agencywould have stepped in a little
more and spoke up, but they didnot. They just kinda let it
happen. It it it just felt likeit was they couldn't prevented a
whole lot of things right thereupfront in those classes, and
they weren't.
So the other piece that was kindof interesting is we had we were
(56:02):
required to take severalclasses, online classes through
the through The Hague and, thefederal government. And all of
the questions were gearedtowards Caucasian or white
people that have no exposure todiversity or culture. It was not
geared towards a couple likeErin and I or even, biracial. So
(56:25):
it was questions like, have youever seen another Asian before?
Have you ever eaten any kind ofAsian food?
I mean, it was things like that,and I'm thinking, what the heck?
And I'm thinking, this is notthis is not good. And so one of
the things that I honestly,Jane, would love to do down the
(56:45):
road is I'd love to just provideinput. It would be nice to have
a a working task team of adultadoptees to say, we need
researchers and scholars andsay, we need to have input with
a hey about these tests and theclasses that should be required
for the adoption agencies. Thereshould be some change here on
(57:08):
The US side.
The questions and the classes, Ijust think, are not built or
created for parents to actuallyreally, really, really prepare
themselves for adoption.
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:20):
Like, just what you're saying about this
process where they're losingpaperwork and you've got four
different social workers within,like, nine months, how can they
possibly screen anybody? I mean,like, obviously, it's all about
money. You know? Thankfully, youand Aaron are good people, but,
like, there's a whole bunch ofpeople who are not. Right?
Like, how do they screen themout? They don't.
Ami Nafzger (57:40):
They don't know.
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:41):
They can't.
Ami Nafzger (57:42):
I don't they can't. And they I don't think they did.
And I don't know if it was justthat agency or what, but this is
a pretty well known agency andone of and the only agency that
does international adoption herein Minnesota right now. So
Jane Jeong Trenka (57:56):
Yeah. I mean, like, this just tells us how
much importance that they placeon on, like, this really life
changing decision that's gonnahappen to this kid. I mean, it's
all formalities. Right? I mean,like, they they try to keep
making these systems tighter andbetter and whatever.
But, like, if in the end, you'regonna staff it like that, what
can you do?
Ami Nafzger (58:14):
You know, I would love to see, Jane, I would love
to create a really good adoptioncurriculum and have it mandatory
work like, partner with the withThe Hague and have it mandatory
through the feds and for theadoption agencies to have to
follow this tight curriculum foradoptive parents. This is gonna
(58:36):
continue and continue, and thechildren are gonna grow up like
us and have so many questionsand so much confused, lost,
angry, depressed. That is justwhat's going on right now. One
of the things is I'm findingthat adopting to be kind to each
other. I think we're just all sofrustrated, and there's a lot of
anger out there, and we need tocome together and we're not.
Jane Jeong Trenka (59:00):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of lateral
violence. Like, we could be madat bigger things and more
powerful things, but that's,like, a little bit too hard, so
we're just mad at each other.
Ami Nafzger (59:11):
Yes. Probably.
Jane Jeong Trenka (59:13):
I mean, like, I'm I'm so glad you're in our
community and you're thinking insuch a big picture way about
taking it to The Hague andtaking it to the feds and so
forth because I feel like that'swhere we can make progress as
activists and communityorganizers. Like, what do you do
with all your rage and yoursadness and your despair over
seeing people die in ourcommunity? You know? It's like,
(59:35):
if if you can sort of elevate itto that level, it's it's
helpful. And then when we'rejust engaging in lateral
violence and hating on eachother and, you know, beating up
women and stuff like that, like,that's not helping.
Ami Nafzger (59:49):
No. No. I mean, there's a lot of talented
adoptees out there and a lot ofsmart adoptees out there. We are
just trying to find them andtrying to have them come and
join us so we can actuallybecome stronger.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:00:03):
So how can people find you if they if they
would like to join?
Ami Nafzger (01:00:07):
Just through our website. It's
www.adopteehub.0rg. But, yes,this is an all volunteer
organization. I also am avolunteer. I actually work full
time.
Jane Jeong Trenka (01:00:19):
Amy, I just wanna express so much gratitude
for, this interview and for youbeing on planet Earth and doing
all this community service andactivism over the years. It's
such an honor. So thank you somuch for contributing to the
book and for spending your timewith us today.
Ami Nafzger (01:00:34):
Well, thank you so much for reaching out to me. I
really appreciate it, and it'sso great to hear your voice.
Thank you.
Narrator (01:00:42):
This recording was produced by University of
Minnesota Press. OutsidersWithin is a landmark publication
that explores transracialadoption and the heavy emotional
and cultural toll on those whodirectly experience it. For more
information, visitz.umn.edu/outsiderswithin.
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