A lot of societal structures have been permanently upended by the Covid-19 pandemic. We’re here to talk about two: air travel and dog ownership. Margret Grebowicz, author of Rescue Me, talks about the abundance of pet adoptions during the pandemic and the existential and social implications of this trend. Christopher Schaberg, author of Grounded, discusses contemporary air travel and the broad cultural landscape of empty airports and grounded planes in the early months of the virus’s spread. Both are concerned with philosophical and critical inquiries into their subjects; how to think about things, how to frame phenomena and change, and how the future will continue to reshape these experiences.
Rescue Me and Grounded are in the Forerunners: Ideas First series from University of Minnesota Press.
Margret Grebowicz is associate professor at the University of Silesia in Katowice, Poland. She is author of several books, including Rescue Me: On Dogs and Their Humans; Mountains and Desire: Climbing vs. the End of the World; The National Park to Come; and Whale Song.
Christopher Schaberg is Dorothy Harrell Brown Distinguished Professor of English at Loyola University and author of several books, including Grounded: Perpetual Flight . . . and Then the Pandemic; The End of Airports; and The Work of Literature in an Age of Post-Truth.
REFERENCES:
-Rescue Me (Margret Grebowicz)
-Grounded (Christopher Schaberg)
-The End of Airports (Christopher Schaberg)
-The Dodo Videos (Facebook videos)
-cat videos, Tik Tok
-The Ministry for the Future (Kim Stanley Robinson)
-Station Eleven (Emily St. John Mandel; book, TV series)
-Tripoli Canceled (film)
-Trainwreck: Woodstock ‘99 (docuseries)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Margret Grebowicz (00:19):
Hi. My name is Margaret Grebowitz, and I am
associate professor ofhumanities at the University of
Silesia, which is in Poland. AndI'm also visiting faculty at
Hampshire College this year. AndI'm here to talk about my latest
book, which is called Rescue Me,on dogs and their humans, out in
the forerunner series. It's thelatest book that I've written in
(00:40):
a series of books that are allon different subjects.
I'm interested, generallyspeaking, in environmental
imagination and inenvironmentalism as culture, and
I'm interested in questions ofdesire. This question of desire
led me to write this book when Iwondered to myself, what is it
we actually want from dogs? Istarted writing this before
(01:00):
there was any talk of anythinglike a great adoption. But I
finished it, after we'd alreadycoined this term, the great
adoption. And so, clearly, bythe time I was done, there was a
phenomenon to point to and talkabout.
So, yeah, I guess it's a bookabout the great adoption, and it
asks the question, what is itthat we want from dogs today?
Christopher Schaberg (01:21):
Hello. My name is Christopher Schaeberg.
I'm a professor of English atLoyola University, New Orleans,
and I've, sort of spent mycareer researching and writing
about air travel. And my secondto last book was called
Grounded, perpetual flight andthen the pandemic. And this was
a forerunners book about thestate of air travel right up to
(01:44):
and then during the first fewmonths of the COVID pandemic.
And this is a subject air travelthat won't leave me alone. As
much as I try to get it out ofmy system. It just keeps flying
back in. I guess in some ways,my question is very similar to
Margaret's, what do humans wantfrom air travel? This is
(02:05):
actually one of the first timesI've had a chance to reflect on
the forerunners book, which waswritten very quickly as the
world of flight was changingdramatically over 02/2020.
So I'm really excited to talkabout these two books together
that seem to both be kind oftaking the the pulse of
something that's either fightingfor life or coming back from the
(02:27):
dead or something. I don't know.That's a bad metaphor.
Margret Grebowicz (02:31):
Yeah. I mean, I I think the reason that we
decided to put these twosubjects into conversation with
each other, subjects that Ithink most people would say are
either unrelated or verytangentially related, is because
we're both interested in thesemass phenomena that changed
around COVID.
Christopher Schaberg (02:49):
Right. Yes. Phenomena that in many
ways, we just we we took forgranted, and we took for granted
the ways that they wererepresented and mediated and
enacted in everyday life. Andthen we had these changes that
we're still very much livingthrough.
Margret Grebowicz (03:04):
Yeah. It's funny. I was reading your book,
and I'm like, wow. It's a bookabout COVID. And then I looked
at my book, and I was like, thisis also a book about COVID,
which is how you know, certainlynot how I would have described
it when I first started thinkingabout it.
Christopher Schaberg (03:15):
Yeah. And, I mean, for me, I was I was
working on this book. Well, theopening pieces were written
before COVID, and I was just itwas like table scraps from my
other books on air travel, andit was just like the remainders
that I was still kind of workingthrough. And then when COVID
hit, it was like, oh, well, thisstuff still matters more than
ever in some ways. And your bookreally has that feeling.
(03:36):
I mean, these are dilemmasyou've been thinking through
with dogs and companion speciesfor many, many years, but
suddenly they took on all thesenew dimensions.
Margret Grebowicz (03:45):
I was going to ask ask you what that was
like for you when they announcedthe lockdown. And, of course,
everyone already had ticketsbought to, you know, go to their
academic conferences or whateverit was. Right? So at some point,
you must have realized, like,oh, right. Something's about to
happen.
Something unprecedented is aboutto happen to air travel.
Christopher Schaberg (04:05):
It was especially strange for me here
in New Orleans because, as Italk about in the book, we had
just opened this brand newairport. After many, many years
of construction and hype, they'dfinally just opened the new
airport, and it it opened togreat acclaim, and everyone was
excited about it. And this wasin November 2019. So it had
(04:25):
about two months or three monthsmaybe of increasing numbers of
air travelers, and then it wasnothing. And I just found that
so fascinating that you that howsomething that seems to have so
much obvious promise could justsuddenly become defunct or
obsolete.
A lot of the earlier parts ofthe book are me just kind of
like registering that. So Ithink it was back in 02/2014. I
(04:51):
read your book, Margaret, theNational Park to Come, which was
right in line with my longinterests in, environmental
philosophy and ecologicalthought. And I was blown away by
that book. Even though it didn'tseem to be directly or at all
related to air travel, I askedmy editor to put your name on
the list of potential endorsersfor my book, The End of
(05:14):
Airports, which was coming outin 02/2015.
And you very graciously blurbedthat book before I knew you. And
when I emailed you to thank you,I sort of ended the email with,
oh, and by the way, I edit thislittle book series called object
lessons if you ever wanna do alittle book about something. And
you wrote back and you said thatI thought you'd never ask. I've
(05:35):
been stalking that series sinceit launched and yes. And so we
then had this very spirited backand forth, and you ended up
writing Whale Song for objectlessons, a book that I love and
which was a perfect fit for theseries.
And that sort of started ourfriendship and collaboration in
in a lot of other endeavors.It's and it's kind of just been
branching out across theenvironmental humanities and the
(05:58):
public humanities and differentinitiatives that we've both been
a part of. And so I was just sohappy when this intersection of
having these two forerunnersbooks happened.
Margret Grebowicz (06:08):
Mhmm. Yeah. I wrote my forerunners book
because you encouraged me to.So, yeah, I did this because
when you wrote grounded, yousaid, you know, this is a really
good experience to go throughthis, and you should do it. And
I thought, okay.
I'll do it. But, yeah, for me,getting that email about the end
of airports was one of theweirder moments of my academic
career because I thought, mygosh. I'm supposed to blurb a
(06:30):
book about airports? I don'tknow anything about airports.
And then when I looked at theproofs, I realized it was so
close to the way I was thinkingabout national parks and that
these are the kinds ofconversations I wanna be having,
like conversations that deal notso much with a concrete subject
matter, but more about, youknow, how to think about things,
how to frame phenomena, and howto frame change.
(06:53):
And so I so we've been doingthat for a few years now. We got
a few good years. Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (06:57):
We have. We have and as we've gotten to
know each other, I you know, youmade some joke when we were
texting once about something anda joke about we were talking
about Derrida or Lyotard, andyou said something about that
old time religion. And, youknow, we both do come out of
this, you know, strong kind ofpost structuralist philosophy
tradition. And yet, we've reallytried to to turn this work
toward I wouldn't say just,like, practical ends, but just
(07:20):
to a different mode of ofwriting and getting this work
out in these kind of shorterform crossover platforms. Like,
forerunners is has made a spacefor this that's been really
dynamic.
And, my series object lessons,your new series practices coming
out with Duke, like, these areplaces where it's just been so
gratifying to see all the thephilosophical and critical
(07:42):
inquiry that I think animatedboth of us early on. We're still
doing all that work even ifwe're not doing it in the same
way.
Margret Grebowicz (07:50):
Mhmm. So go so returning to your question,
for me, I had wanted to write abook about dogs for completely
personal reasons that I go intoin the book a little bit. Like,
it was time for me to confront amajor episode in my life in
which I lost my first dogtragically, and I and I wanted
to start confronting thosefeelings, addressing the being
(08:10):
with those feelings in writing,however loosely, and seeing
where that took me. Imagine myabsolute surprise when, as I was
already well into the process ofkind of thinking about this as a
very personal book that kind ofdoesn't have anything to do with
other people or mass phenomena.And suddenly, it became clear
(08:31):
that one of the effects of thelockdown was this massive, you
know, upswing in pet adoptions
Christopher Schaberg (08:36):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (08:37):
Which is something that I thought none of
us would have predicted. Right?When we all thought that
everyone was going to die, wedidn't predict that one of the
major, major nationalconversations in the media for
months was going to be aboutdogs and cats, which it was.
Christopher Schaberg (08:52):
And you even find yourself firsthand in
this position at one point inthe book and in your life of
suddenly you are adopting a newdog, which is its own intense
drama and point of hope andsadness, which does kind of
stand in in sort of weird,relation to the more I guess,
just like, isolated somber moodof the time, if that makes
(09:16):
sense. You know, that likeyou're like, we're alone, but
like suddenly being togetherwith someone or something else
takes on even more energy andpotential, but also potential
for things to go wrong.
Margret Grebowicz (09:28):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (09:28):
I love those scenes in the book where
you're describing, like, what itwas like to embrace this new dog
and then, spoiler alert, thenhave to let it go again.
Margret Grebowicz (09:38):
Right. Right. She was a hoarded dog. Right?
She came from a hoarding case.
So I actually opened the book bytalking about dog hoarding, but
not in the way that you mightexpect. I confessed to being a
dog hoarder in my heart, And Ithink this is something that
many dog lovers will relate tovery quickly. I mean, everyone I
talk to sort of wishes theycould adopt more dogs. So given
(09:59):
that that's such a normalemotion for people who have made
a life with dogs, It's it'squite normal to wish that you
could take in all the dogs inthe world.
Christopher Schaberg (10:09):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (10:09):
Right? Given that, it's interesting how very,
very hard we come down on actualdog hoarding. Right? How hard we
come down on it. And the more welearn about dogs, the more
there's kind of a more and morepopular conversation about what
it is that dogs need to to havea good life and how we've been
getting certain things wrong,and we need to do them better,
(10:30):
and what could we do better.
And then it's like who emergessort of as this ultimate figure
of animal abuse in this story isthe dog hoarder. But meanwhile,
we've all got these weird quasihoarding emotions Right. That
are also motivating us. And, youknow, and of course, all of this
is set. I tried to set it in alarger background conceptual
(10:53):
landscape of hoarding or maybescarcity.
Right? Scarcity in latecapitalism. Right? What does it
mean that we are all we'reafraid of this coming poverty,
right, of this coming scarcity?It's being announced now that
we're all gonna have to tightenour belts, tighten our belts,
tighten our belts.
And we're tightening our beltsnot just materially, but we're
also tightening our beltsemotionally around a lot of
(11:13):
things and socially andintersubjectively around a lot
of things.
Christopher Schaberg (11:17):
I was thinking about that a lot as I
was reading your book, how itis. This it works allegorically
in relation to these largerthreats of, you know, supply
chain issues and consumerhoarding and, yes, scarcity that
these are these are things thatwe can learn from not just in
the context that you're talkingabout dogs, but it's actually,
like, reverberating on thesemuch vaster scales of economy
(11:39):
and and sociality.
Margret Grebowicz (11:42):
So I did have to take Maybelline back. I was
only fostering her, but I washoping that she would be a
classic foster fail and that Iwould keep her forever. But I
did have to take her backbecause the behavioral problems
were so pronounced, and I didn'thave enough support to deal with
them. Come here. Come here,Waffles.
Here he is. Here he is. He'sgonna sit down now. I think it's
(12:02):
important to have thoseconversations that are sort of
very honest about how we fail asdog parents, yep, right, in a
serious way precisely becausewe've got this this situation.
You know, my subtitle is on dogsand their humans, but the book
initially began with a totallydifferent subtitle.
And it was dog abundance andsocial scarcity.
Christopher Schaberg (12:22):
Scarcity. Yeah. Something like that.
Margret Grebowicz (12:23):
Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (12:23):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (12:24):
I really try to kind of give a sense of a
feeling of dog abundance, whatI'm calling dog abundance. But
it could also be, you know, wecould also call it dog
overpopulation. It's that thereare all these dogs, wild dogs
and domestic dogs. And they'rewith us everywhere all the time.
And then there's this big kindof machine of, like, producing
(12:45):
dogs and destroying dogs.
That's all part of the sameadoption and shelter
infrastructure. You know, to me,it very much mirrors the human
situation. It mirrors thesituation that we're in, which
is like there are so many of us,and yet everything feels so
impoverished.
Christopher Schaberg (13:02):
Right. So many of us and so much from some
perspective, so much abundanceof resources or capital,
frankly, and yet these gaps andfissures where everything sort
of falls through.
Margret Grebowicz (13:14):
And then the weird emotions around it all.
Like, I was watching the dodovideos. The dodo is a is a is
like a Facebook channel wherethey show these very heartfelt
video, like, sort of heartwrenching videos about most of
them are success stories, butthey start out so in fact, I
think they're all successstories. But they start out so
(13:35):
tragic that that's how they pullyou in right away. And it's like
some dog whose mange is so badthat he just doesn't have any
fur on him at all, and he's justshaking, and he can't see
because the mange has closedsealed his eyes and things like
that.
And it's like, oh, this dog wasfound on the street. I started
looking at them more and moreclosely, and it's like most of
them are coming from countrieswhere there is a huge street dog
(13:57):
tradition and street dogculture. I mean, most of these
videos are actually not comingfrom The United States, but
we're watching them as if theywere. We're watching them as if
they were sort of telling thestory of this culture today.
Right?
That it's somehow hitting onemotions that we're feeling now,
and it's and it's sort ofexacerbating them and massaging
them in various ways. But theactual content is coming from
(14:21):
countries and cultures in which,you know, there's very much a a
long tradition of dogs that livearound that don't have human
owners. They just kind of hangout. Right? Scavenger dogs on
the street.
And but yet we some we somehowthink this is very much our
story, and that tells mesomething. The fact that the
dodo is such a huge hit showsthat we want something from
(14:44):
these stories.
Christopher Schaberg (14:45):
And there's this threshold of
inaccessibility. I mean, you endwith this really poignant scene
about the coyotes. Or, actually,they they come in at a few
points, but they then you reallyend with this. There's this
realm of dog life that will willremain inaccessible. And that's
something we sort of have toconfront and not just in an
abstract sense, but it could bebecause it also, like, it it's
(15:05):
it informs our mundanerelationships with these other,
you know, companions.
Margret Grebowicz (15:10):
Yeah. Very much. I own a Basenji. One of my
dogs is a Basenji. And theBasenji is, from what I
understand, geneticallyspeaking, sort of the oldest dog
breed.
They're the ones that are sortof I don't know if you can hear
the little pitter patter, butthat's my chihuahua waffles.
He's just walking around. Yeah.Basenjis are this ancient breed.
(15:30):
They're still very, unalteredfrom their original state, so
they're called the Africanbarkless dog.
They don't have a barkingmechanism because, of course,
wild dogs, wild canids don'tbark. Wolves don't bark. Coyotes
don't bark. And the older youget in a breed, the less of a
barker you have. Right?
(15:52):
So huskies, which are Alaskanmalamutes, that family of dog,
which is also super, super old,almost as old as the Basenji,
they also don't really bark thatmuch. They tend to kind of howl
and sing. Husky owners love totalk about that husky sound that
they make this. There's a lotof, like, talking. Like, there's
there's a ton, by the way, ofTikTok videos of huskies
(16:16):
talking, which is its ownphenomenon.
But, yeah, I own a Basenji, andthe reason I bring this up is
because I know other Basenjiowners. I know how highly
coveted the breed is, how muchBasenji owners love to talk
about how it's not for everyoneand you have to really be ready.
You know, if you're gonna own aBasenji, you gotta be ready for
a lot of problems. And it's thiskind of it's not your normal
(16:39):
kind of dog, and there's thismythos around the breed. And
it's absolutely the mythos thatyou might have a wild dog at
home.
That's the appeal, and that'swhy so many people get their
Basenjis from breeders. It'sit's one of those breeds that if
you want one, you're gonna haveto pay for a puppy because
they're so rare still. They'reconsidered a sort of elite dog.
(17:00):
They're very popular in Russiaright now among, again, like,
you know, wealthy owners.They're a symbol of wealth.
And whatever that does I mean,this is new. This wasn't the
case twenty years ago. Basenjiwas not the dog everybody wanted
twenty years ago. And the reasonI think the reason they want it
now is because, you know, whatwe're what we're after now is
(17:20):
this wild inner life of the dog,right, to which we don't
actually have any access.
Christopher Schaberg (17:27):
So what's what's so fascinating to me
hearing you talk about this,Margaret, and and it just sort
of clicked with me. You talkabout various social media
trends in the book, and you justmentioned a few, the TikTok,
huskies. And you just mentionedthat duration of, like, over the
last twenty years, there's beenthis increase. On the one hand,
humans would seem to be aftersomething very primordial almost
(17:49):
or very, you know, an artifactof real contact with something
wild. On the other hand, this isgetting kind of amplified or
revved up by these new digitalmedia technologies and
communicative methods that arejust so, ubiquitous on social
media.
I wonder how you think aboutthat, in terms of, like, what is
(18:12):
that tension, or is it notattention at all? Is it act is
it actually revealing somethingabout what we think of as
something, you know, new newmedia, but in fact is tethered
to something a lot, well, youknow, older in scare quotes? I
don't know if that's the rightword.
Margret Grebowicz (18:27):
That is sort of my take on this. It's it's a
version of what you just said.The content that we're sharing,
the conversations that we'rehaving having about dogs on
social media are veryparticular. They're not just any
conversation. And it's less andless the stuff about, like, cute
cute.
Mhmm. I'm sure you remember thatwhen we had, like, the cute cat
(18:50):
videos. Right? That was a thingfor a while.
Christopher Schaberg (18:52):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (18:53):
And it was all about cute animals, and
that's what we shared. And infact, when Instagram animals
became a thing, the first dogson Instagram were the cute ones,
the ones that could be, youknow, made to wear glasses and
bow ties, you know, tutus andthings like that. And those were
the ones who became, like,Instagram influencers. And I'm
(19:13):
sure that that's still around,but the latest social media
phenomenon, really, the big oneis TikTok, and that's no longer
about the cute dogs. Dog talk,as we call it, dog talk is more
focused on debates around whatdogs need.
I like to talk about thetraining wars that are sort of
(19:35):
taking place on TikTok, andthey're between actual trainers,
but they're also between schoolsof training. Most notably,
balanced training, which usescorrection as well as positive
reinforcement, and then purepositive, which uses no
correction and uses onlypositive reinforcement. This
tension is sort of the bigconversation, this this debate,
(19:58):
which one of them is right andwhich one of them is more
effective, is the big debate ondog talk right now. So the fact
that we're talking about that, Ithink, is is really key. The
fact that all of theconversations we're having seem
to point back to a certain setof questions, and that is, what
did that first moment ofdomestication actually look
like?
(20:18):
How did the wild dog become ourdog? And how did we become these
people who can't live withoutdogs?
Christopher Schaberg (20:24):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (20:25):
Whatever else we're talking about, whether
it's food in my book, I focus onthree things. One is the
adoption infrastructure. Thesecond one is food and
enrichment toys, and the thirdone is training. And I think
that all three of them areactually deep down interested in
the same grounding questions andsort of grounding concepts. And
(20:47):
it's about, like, taking us backto a state of nature.
What was that like when therewas a kind of original sociality
and an original being in theenvironment that was not broken?
Right?
Christopher Schaberg (21:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (21:02):
A being with nature that wasn't sort of
fundamentally broken oralienated. And in that moment,
we had the beginning of thisoriginal interspecies
friendship. All of theconversations are ones where
we're arguing about what thatactually was. It's all stuff
like trying to actually do thepsychology of the dog and trying
(21:23):
to understand what dogs reallywant and trying to give
evolutionary explanations forwhy dogs want this and not that
or why humans want this fromdogs and not that. Right?
Or why we feel this way and notsome other way. So I think this
is exactly, you know, whatyou're what you're saying. We
are turning to all the newplatforms for social life while
at the same time longing for akind of primordial social life.
(21:47):
So I that's what I see it. I seeit as, like, an ultimate I don't
know I don't know what the Idon't know what the Lacanians
would call it.
Neurosis, hysteria, psychosis. Idon't know what it expresses,
but it seems to express somekind of, like, strange, quote,
unquote, mental illness. Right?The more we get caught up in
these new platforms, the morewhat we're after is the truth of
(22:09):
some real way of being naturaland together in the world.
Christopher Schaberg (22:15):
Yes. Yeah. I don't wanna force the
connection here or the jump, buteverything you've just been
saying, it's to me, it's likethe obverse and what has
fascinated and and what I'vebeen obsessed with about air
travel for all these years.Because it seems like the
opposite in some ways, likepeople's desire to fly. And
sometimes that becomes like ahysterical thing.
(22:35):
I mean, like, seeing how muchyou can fly, how often, how how
many miles, you know. It's allabout escaping, or it would seem
to be about escaping some kindof more grounded state of being.
Or is it that I I think aboutjust, like, humans traveling and
generally coexisting in thesesmall little metal tubes for a
(22:56):
couple hours, and everyone'sjust barely tolerating it. And
it's like everyone knows it's,like, the worst, and you're just
trying to, like, get back to theground, I guess. But the way to
do that is to travel really fastin these little things, which
everyone sort of, like, hatesbut needs.
What you were saying made methink about how the dynamic is
similar but kind of flipped withwhat people want from from air
(23:19):
travel. It's like trying toescape that what would you call
it? That being in nature.
Margret Grebowicz (23:24):
That earthbound kind of like, but
like a healthy earthbound vibe.
Christopher Schaberg (23:28):
Yeah. And instead of it being, like, about
an interspecies connection, it'smore about, like, an
interspecies connection thatwe're trying to avoid or
overcome almost.
Margret Grebowicz (23:37):
But what's interesting is I started paying
closer attention to all of therhetorics around air travel only
after I met you when I was like,of course. Of course, this is
something to look at closely. Ohmy gosh. I'd actually love to
ask you about this because theway we imagine air travel and
the way we talk about air travelhas has changed. Right?
It changes decade to decade, andI'm thinking of the shift from
(24:01):
air travel as a form of luxury.
Christopher Schaberg (24:03):
Mhmm. The golden age of
Margret Grebowicz (24:05):
air travel. Age. Right? Yeah. To to when it
becomes
Christopher Schaberg (24:13):
foils. And
Margret Grebowicz (24:14):
then it becomes this thing that, like,
suddenly everyone can afford.Everyone, quote, unquote, can
afford. Right? And then itbecomes kind of not so good.
Right?
When it when it becomes thisaffordable thing sort of
democratized in some way, or Idon't know I don't know what to
call it. When you talk aboutthis thing that we all hate but
have to do or feel like we haveto do. Right? We all kinda hate
it, and it kind of it kindasucks. Wasn't there a bunch of
(24:36):
conversations about how to makeit better?
Because I remember somethinglike that. I remember that the
research around, like, what theideal airplane cabin
Christopher Schaberg (24:45):
would
Margret Grebowicz (24:45):
be like or what is enough legroom.
Christopher Schaberg (24:48):
Well, even at the beginning of the
pandemic, you know, like, theaircraft manufacturers like
Boeing being you know, sayinglike, well, wait a minute. Don't
you all realize we've made thesenew aircraft like the Dreamliner
that have these awesome airfilters? So, actually, airplanes
are the safest place you can be.And it it was actually true that
those airplanes, like the theJuly Dreamliner and planes, even
(25:10):
like the 07/30 sevens, the newerones, they were more pleasant to
be in just atmosphericallybecause there was a lot of
conversation about, like, let'sjust make this a better
experience. But then in a lot ofways, the pandemic just
shattered that because it waslike, oh, you can't get away
from the base fact of just we'reall gonna be crammed in here
together, and some of us aregonna be sick even if we don't
know it yet.
And that, of course, led to thegrounding of flights, which led
(25:32):
to the explosion of pandemicdogs, actually. But, yeah, I
mean, I think you talked about,like, the democratization of air
travel, but also it startedbecoming more gritty and grimy.
And then, of course, there wasthe post 09/11 securitization of
air travel, which also led to, Ithink, like, a few years of
(25:53):
renewed pride around theexperience and a sense of, like,
no. This is something we reallyneed to protect and appreciate.
But then that went away tooafter after a while, and it just
kinda slumped back into more ofthe same.
There just does seem to be thisconstant struggle to both, like,
make the experience better andmore accessible to more people,
(26:14):
but also just always admittingthat it's something we we'd
really rather not do, or youcan't really get away from it
from the more abject parts ofit. I think that all just kinda
got cashed out during thepandemic. I mean, there were
some people who were like, oh, Ireally miss traveling, but but
there were also a lot of peoplewho said, wow. I don't I really
don't miss traveling by plane. Imean, I felt like that, and now
(26:34):
I feel like a total charlataneven writing about air travel
because I don't do it anymore,and I don't really wanna do it.
Margret Grebowicz (26:39):
Yeah. But I I think that's why it's so
important to have a kind ofrenewed attention to and focus
on not just planes, but airportsfor true love, which is
airports.
Christopher Schaberg (26:51):
Yes. Yes.
Margret Grebowicz (26:52):
Because they're all coming back, but
they're coming back different.
Christopher Schaberg (26:56):
Yes.
Margret Grebowicz (26:57):
And it's interesting to see what the
difference is and how they'reframing the difference and why
you and I and everyone shouldreturn to air travel, right, and
why it's really great. So whenyou, you know, when we talk
about it getting better, we meanbetter in particular ways.
Right? So how have the airportsbeen advertising being better,
for example? The last fewairports I was in over this past
(27:17):
year, because I did have to fly,everything is under construction
Christopher Schaberg (27:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (27:22):
More than ever before. It's under, like,
like, really dramaticconstruction, and it's always
pardon our dust. We're makingthese amazing, you know,
improvements.
Christopher Schaberg (27:32):
Which is really probably more about,
like, labor shortages and supplychain snafus that mean that they
just projects have been takinglonger as we all know. Things
are left half done or but you'reright. Very much like the the
way these things are marketed asis as progress. Progress you're
seeing progress in action. I'mfinishing this new book right
now on adventure, which you knowabout a little bit, Margaret.
(27:55):
And one of the things I'venoticed is the airlines
pitching, like, there's oneDelta ad that says, you know,
ready for your next adventure?You know, the skies are open
again or something like that.The world is open to travel.
That's what it says. And so it'svery much like inviting us back
in to fly both as an adventureitself or to an adventure.
(28:17):
It's really interesting to mehow there's that kind of
glossing over of the thedifference between those two
possibilities because I don'tthink flying has really changed
that much. And in fact,everything I hear from friends
and family over the last year orso is that it's pretty much as
awful as it's ever been, if notworse. But on the other hand,
it's like, are we gonnaexperience this in new ways? Is
(28:39):
it gonna mean somethingdifferent to us now? Which also,
I mean, just reminds me a lot ofhow you're talking about the
great adoption and, oh, like,now we understand why we need
dogs.
Now that we're in lockdown, nowthat we're alone together with
our friends or fan or justfamily or alone period, like,
now I understand why I need adog, and I will I will treat it
(28:59):
differently now. There's thatsame kind of rhetorical couching
of desire there, I think. On theone hand, with dogs, it would
seem like we're trying toreclaim something deep in our
nature. Whereas with, like,getting back to air travel is
like getting back to the cusp ofprogress, escaping who we were
back when we were in wagons orwhatever or trains. Like, no.
(29:23):
We gotta get back in the air.You know, keep going forward. I
mean, maybe there's somethingbetween these two activities
that exposes a real existentialrift.
Margret Grebowicz (29:32):
Yeah. I mean, I I'm super curious about what
you've found since the bookbecause your book's been out a
lot longer than mine. Right. Agood, you know, year and a half
or something like that. Yeah.
And I'm wondering I mean, somuch has happened since then. I
mean, you know, most notably forus normal people just dealing in
the with the world, the spacebillionaires, billionaire space
(29:55):
race. Right? This idea of spacetourism and, like, a new luxury,
a new golden age with thisfantasy that we're gonna
inaugurate this new golden ageof space tourism. What's
happened since the book came outthat you've been thinking like,
okay.
Here are the next moments ofthis stuff I'm thinking about.
Christopher Schaberg (30:14):
Well, yeah. I mean, actually, a
magazine out of London recentlyasked me to write kind of the
epilogue to this book becausethey like the book grounded, and
they wanted me to kind of answerthat question you just posed.
Like, so where are we now? Acouple years later, like, you
know, what has happened? What'sgonna happen next?
I mean, one thing is is I wasflipping through my book after
(30:34):
not looking at it for a while.People actually started flying a
lot sooner than the aviationexperts really predicted. People
predicted this would stretch outto like 02/2324. And certainly,
the effects will still be felt.But, you know, airlines and
travelers were pretty eager toget everything going again, like
get back to the pre COVID levelsby last summer.
(30:54):
I mean, we're not quite thereyet, I don't think, but, like,
they were eager to just let'sget back as soon as possible. No
surprise, I guess. But, ofcourse, at the same time, you've
got, you know, science writersat the Atlantic pointing out
that we didn't really learn thelessons from that pandemic and
it's not gonna be the last andthis will likely or something
like it will happen again andshut down air travel. And we've
(31:15):
seen now how fragile the systemis, air travel. I don't know how
much more or how many times thewhole, like, infrastructure and
system could take that kind of,like, absolute abrupt shutdown.
And so I think while people are,like, eagerly getting back in
the skies, there's also justthis maybe mostly unconscious
(31:35):
knowledge or awareness that,like, this could all go away
tomorrow because we've seen ithappen. And it could go away,
maybe not for good, but it couldhave to change in ways we can't
even yet imagine. I was actuallyreading I talk about this in the
piece that I just wrote. KimStanley Robinson's novel, The
Ministry for the Future, has anamazing scene midway through the
(31:55):
book that takes place in theFebruary. I don't really wanna
describe the whole scene, butit's basically a day that
changes air travel forever or orat least from that point on.
Like, it's not going back. Andit was amazing for me to read
that because I think it speaksto, again, just that awareness
that, like, we we've seen ithappen. It could happen again,
(32:16):
and it might be more longlasting. It might necessitate
changes that we really arerepressing at this point. Like,
the the idea that we mightactually, you know what?
Stop flying these airplanes.Maybe we fly in a different way,
a slower way, or maybe werecommit to, like, rail or a
different kind of sea travel.But that that chapter could
close, and that's a veryunpopular position.
Margret Grebowicz (32:38):
But it's a position you've had for years.
Christopher Schaberg (32:40):
Right. Yeah. No. No. I mean, this is
why I wrote a book called TheEnd of Airports.
Margret Grebowicz (32:43):
Yeah. That was my first book that I read by
you.
Christopher Schaberg (32:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (32:46):
That's how we met, right, was around that
book. And I was like, oh mygosh. There could be an end of
airports? And this was now yearsago. You've been predicting
that, of course, all of this isis on the wane.
Of course, it is.
Christopher Schaberg (32:58):
That book was 02/2015, and I was really
writing a lot about how digitaltechnologies and especially,
like, smartphones were reallychanging dramatically the
experience of flight and what weexpected from what we wanted
from flight compared with whatwe were getting on our little
handheld magic computers. And Iguess that was another link
earlier when you were talkingabout, like, the social media
(33:19):
and how we are channeling ourdesires with our animals into
these machines or how we'rereceiving those desires from
across the interwebs. It alsoseems like you are locating a
kind of nascent I don't know ifit's what quite a crisis point,
but there's some kind of shifthappening. There's a third party
here. Right?
There are a third object. It'slike it's not just humans and
(33:40):
dogs. It's humans and dogs andTikTok. And I guess for me, in
02/2015, it was like, oh mygosh. This isn't just about
humans and airplanes anymore.
This is about humans andairplanes, and everyone has an
iPhone. And that was to me whatwas precipitating what I was
calling the end of airports. Itsounded outlandish at the time
and it probably still soundsoutlandish to some. But then we
(34:00):
saw a version of this happenwith the pandemic. We're not we
can't fly anymore.
Oh, guess what? We have Zoom.We're we're good. You know?
Margret Grebowicz (34:08):
Right. Yeah. Because, ultimately, all of
these things are symptoms of afantasy of social life.
Christopher Schaberg (34:13):
Right. Right.
Margret Grebowicz (34:14):
I mean or of different I'm not saying it's
one fantasy. This is what we'retalking about. This is what's
motivating all of this stuff isa certain fantasy of what social
life could be.
Christopher Schaberg (34:24):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (34:24):
Which means we're in crisis around social
life. Otherwise, there would beno reason to keep looking for
the better form of it.
Christopher Schaberg (34:32):
Right. Whether that means traveling to
a new place or or the kind ofmanic drive to travel to ever
new places, or there was areason why those stories about
COVID, you know, adoptions ofpets were going so viral because
that that was also about, like,we need to not only recast our
desires, but also, like,remediate them. I had this story
(34:53):
that I I told you about over thephone a couple months ago, but I
still don't really know what todo with. But it was the story of
my partner's cousin's husbandwho is a veteran who has a
service dog, and they weretraveling over the summer
traveling by air. And when theygot to the airport, they
realized that they hadn'tregistered the service dog at
the right time period.
You know, they were supposed togive twenty four hours advance,
(35:15):
but they hadn't. But,apparently, that was a new rule,
and he didn't realize they hadto. They would have let him on
the flight, but not the servicedog. Of course, that wasn't
gonna happen to someone whoneeds their service dog. And so
it was a, you know, a minorcatastrophe and logistical
nightmare, and it all was sortedout.
But I it just got me thinkingabout, like, on the one hand,
like, the airport with itsprotocols, the I mean, service
(35:37):
dogs are now, like, the legibleform of real social life, and
yet, like, where that runs intoproblems or where we can't,
like, fit that in to these otherforms of social life. And it was
also, like, different, like,competing vectors of authority.
I don't know. I just it wassomething that when it happened,
I was like, oh my gosh. I wannatalk to Margaret about this
because what the heck was goingon there?
Margret Grebowicz (35:58):
I would like at some point to come up with a
really robust reading of theservice dog phenomenon, which,
again, is not a new phenomenon,but the rhetoric around it keeps
changing.
Christopher Schaberg (36:10):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (36:10):
So there's always a a newness to contend
with around it. I was justvisiting Quabbin Reservoir,
which is right in WesternMassachusetts, and I went there
with my dogs because of, youknow, it's this massive tract of
wild unpeopled land. So, ofcourse, I'm gonna go there with
my dogs. And everything wasfine. Dogs were on lead.
Nobody was, you know, breakingthe law except I didn't know
(36:31):
that dogs were not allowed. Andso I was stopped by the police.
And they said, are these servicedogs? And I said, no. And
they're like, yeah.
No dogs allowed in QuabbinReservoir. And I was like, okay.
Sorry. And then, you know, weran off and whatever. But then I
thought about it.
And, of course, the reason, asthe officer explained to me, the
reason is that their feces arebad for the water. This is a
reservoir that supplies over 40%of the water of Massachusetts.
(36:55):
And so we can't have dog fecesaround at all. They also have,
interestingly, a gull harassmentprogram in effect so that gulls
do not set up shop. Basically,they have all kinds of, like,
interesting things.
Like, they have fake coyotes.They have coyote decoys out
there to scare Canada geeseaway. So waterfowl or at least
(37:17):
certain species of waterfowl aresuper problematic to the area to
to that, and they would justtotally set up shop around the
reservoir if they were allowedto. So they're constantly being
harassed and driven away.
Christopher Schaberg (37:28):
Wait a minute. Presumably, there are
fish in the reservoir.
Margret Grebowicz (37:31):
Oh, yes. Don't ask me.
Christopher Schaberg (37:33):
It's this kind of interesting limit case
for, like, whose poop is okay, Iguess.
Margret Grebowicz (37:38):
Yeah. And what is a healthy ecosystem? And
totally not what I thought. Ithought, like, a massive
freshwater place with nowaterfowl. I I would never have
thought that that's good, butthat's what they're trying to
maintain.
Christopher Schaberg (37:52):
But wait a minute. You said if you if it
would have been a service dog,it might have been okay?
Margret Grebowicz (37:56):
Yeah. So I'm like, so why is service dog poop
okay? I think it has to do withthe imaginary around the service
dog and what and, you know, thisidea that some dogs are
necessary and others aren't.This is something that I really,
over the next few years, wannalook into very seriously, but I
have to do a lot of researcharound the history of the
service dog and why it has thiskind of exceptional status
(38:18):
beyond sort of the obvious, youknow, why it has this
exceptional status, and thenwhat happened in that exquisite
moment of the emotional supportanimal, which was a very short
lived moment. But there was thisalmost ecstatic mass phenomenon
moment where the world said, ofcourse, all domestic animals are
support animals.
Christopher Schaberg (38:39):
A lot of those narratives played out on
social media on airplanes
Margret Grebowicz (38:43):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (38:43):
Where someone would have their peacock
in a seat next to them.
Margret Grebowicz (38:47):
Yeah. Well, that was just one time.
Christopher Schaberg (38:49):
But there were there were many, many
social media, like, oh my gosh.Look what this person brought on
the plane.
Margret Grebowicz (38:54):
Like an eye roll. Right? Like Yeah. All it
Christopher Schaberg (38:56):
was like Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (38:56):
A peacock. Sure. Right? But, actually,
there was I remember flyingduring that time, and it was
this wonderful time where therewere all these dogs around
airports, and it was kindaweird. And they pee and there
was, like, dog pee that someonehad to go clean up and all that
stuff.
Christopher Schaberg (39:09):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (39:10):
But it was kind of amazing that Yeah. The
idea that you could just flywith your dog and suddenly all
your plans around flying couldbe different and your experience
of flying could be different?
Christopher Schaberg (39:19):
I mean, in my my home airport up in
Northern Michigan, the TraverseCity Airport, has this amazing
little outdoor dog park, like,past security. This incredible
accommodation and commitment ofsquare footage in an airport,
which is, like, premium at, youknow, value. This is potentially
part of a much bigger project ora kind of, like, opening move
(39:40):
for a larger book.
Margret Grebowicz (39:41):
Yeah. No. That's right, which, of course,
is what forerunners sometimesis, wonderfully. What I have
here are three chapters. I mean,I guess if you count the
introduction, like, fourchapters that are really kind of
dense and intense littlecritiques.
Christopher Schaberg (39:55):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (39:56):
And I wanna see what I could do on the more
hopeful end of things. Yeah.Yeah. It's one thing to take
apart dog owner culture and showhow much it's a kind of
projection space for all kindsof delusional fantasies.
Christopher Schaberg (40:09):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (40:10):
But it's another thing to then say, okay.
How should we be with dogs?Like, re like, really? What does
this mean? I mean, this is kindof the the question that you're
asking about air travel too.
Or maybe the question that comesup when we think about the end
of air travel, right, is thenhow do we do it right in a way
that isn't going to becompletely co opted by the
market?
Christopher Schaberg (40:29):
I think that's right. That's exactly
right.
Margret Grebowicz (40:31):
What would it mean to have, like, a more real
and honest and productive andhopeful relationship with dogs
on the large scale? Because,again, with dogs, just like with
airplanes or with air travel,you're dealing with a with a
tragedy of the common situation.Something that everyone wants
access to.
Christopher Schaberg (40:48):
And something that sometimes
brutally exposes our own speciesintrusion to any, you know,
notion of what a commons orshared space.
Margret Grebowicz (40:57):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (40:58):
I mean, ownership. Right? It's this is
what is ownership?
Margret Grebowicz (41:02):
I'm sort of changing the topic here a little
bit, but I was thinking aboutthe little tiny short piece in
your book that's called ode toempty airports. This is related
to the question of, like, whatnow and what should happen now
and how could we think aboutdoing it right? What should
happen with airports?
Christopher Schaberg (41:17):
Well, you know, the old airport, the
abandoned airport in New Orleanssince we got our brand new
airport. And the old airport, bythe way, was kind of fine. But
that has since been leased as askate park where they've been
filming these skater events,which is kind of fascinating. I
mean, these these are largespaces we're talking about, not
just the runways and tarmacs,but just, like, large built
(41:39):
spaces. And it does seem to methat there are all kinds of
possibilities for reimaginingthese spaces.
But, I mean, again, that soundsa bit radical, if not post
apocalyptic. I mean, we get theversion of that in the the novel
and then TV series adaptationstation 11, which imagines how
people might survive and eventhrive in an airport that no
(42:00):
longer has airplanes flying inand out of it. There's also that
great film, Tripoli Cancelled,filmed in an abandoned airport
outside of Athens, I believe,sort of reimagining what that
space looks like when you don'thave passengers coursing through
it or airplanes taking off. ButI mean, it's really hard to
think this when overwhelminglythe cultural drive is for more
(42:23):
and get back into the sky anddon't miss out and get your
miles back in in shape again.And there's just such a I feel a
little weird using this word,but there's such hegemony around
around flight Mhmm.
That it's really hard to tothink anything otherwise.
Margret Grebowicz (42:40):
Like, we can't imagine the end of flight.
Like, we can't imagine the endof capitalism. Right?
Christopher Schaberg (42:46):
Yeah. And that goes back to actually your
first question. For me, I thinkI mean, I remember before the
lockdowns happened at thebeginning of the pandemic, we
left town as things werestarting to shut down, and we
quarantined up in NorthernMichigan. And I just remember
the unbelievable silence in thesky where there had been before
always planes coming over fromEurope on their final descent to
(43:09):
Chicago. And it was just soquiet.
And I'd never even reallynoticed before that, like, of
course, there's always, like,seven forty sevens flying
overhead even up in this, like,remote part of Michigan. But
realizing, like, wow, that'sjust a distinct difference,
We're just like atmospherically,environmentally, ambiently.
It'll be very interesting to seeover the next two decades how
(43:32):
the pressure is put on airtravel and how humans respond to
those pressures and if, if wehave new ways of reimagining
travel.
Margret Grebowicz (43:42):
I just recently saw a film about
Woodstock ninety nine, which wasthis music festival that took
place in 1999. And they calledit Woodstock. They used the
Woodstock brand, but theyactually held it in Rome, New
York, which is a suburb ofUtica. And they held it in an
abandoned airplane hangar, likea military hangar
Christopher Schaberg (44:02):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (44:02):
Where they took these people, and I think
it was some sort of, like,200,000 people or something like
that, and closed them in thisspace. And it turned into just a
complete disaster, famously so.I actually don't remember when
it happened, but my partnertalks about remembering hearing
about it on the news, what acomplete disaster it was because
they didn't have the rightsanitation. I mean, the water
(44:25):
was filled with feces. Peoplewere getting, like, trench mouth
from drinking the water.
They had taken all of theirwater bottles away when they
this is interesting. Right? Theytook all their water bottles
away when they entered to forcethem to buy water from the
concessionaires. And then therewas so much chaos and so many
people and so much price gougingand, of course, like, some kind
(44:45):
of very dramatic, very seriousdrug scene. There was a rape
tent that went on for about fourdays, apparently.
There was no security to speakof. There were multiple reports
of sexual assault afterwards on,like, underage girls. There was
apparently this massive chaoswhen you take well, imagine
taking 200,000 people, stickingthem into this space which is
(45:07):
supposed to be again, talk abouta fantasy of sociality. It's
supposed to be Woodstock. Right.
Right? The ultimate social happyplace. And instead, what you
have is a flat military, like,airplane hangar space that's
empty, and everyone in theredoesn't have enough to drink.
It's hot. They don't have aproper place to go to the
(45:30):
bathroom.
The bathrooms aren't beingcleaned. And then you bring in a
bunch of, like, late ninetiesmetal bands to play. Korn, the
Red Hot Chili Peppers, thesekinds of bands. And it was sort
of the opposite of what you'retalking about as here is this
abandoned airport architecturethat is trying to be something,
(45:50):
but actually it can't be. Andmaybe one of the reasons it
can't be is because of thearchitecture.
Christopher Schaberg (45:56):
Exactly. Yeah. And because of just the
history embodied in thatarchitecture. Right? That
everything I mean, it's it's thetwentieth century encapsulated,
as it were.
Margret Grebowicz (46:05):
And that you can't overcome. Like, there's no
that there's reimagining and butreimagining actually has its
limits.
Christopher Schaberg (46:10):
Yeah. That's really interesting.
Margret Grebowicz (46:12):
Oh, it was called you'll like this, Chris.
It was called Trainwreck,Woodstock ninety nine.
Christopher Schaberg: Interesting. Okay. (46:18):
undefined
Margret Grebowicz (46:19):
Mhmm. It was a, like, a docuseries. And no
one really knows what happeneduntil much later. It was only
much later that we go in and wefind out what was actually going
on and what drove people tobecome, you know, really out of
their minds. It was, you know,one of the great insights into
the phenomenon of the massstampede or what happens when
you put a bunch of peopletogether and you promise them a
(46:41):
good time, but you take away allof the infrastructure that they
need to actually make itsuccessful.
Christopher Schaberg (46:47):
It also is sounding a lot like that, the
Fyre Festival Yeah. Justwithout, like,
Margret Grebowicz (46:51):
the feeling or or
Christopher Schaberg (46:52):
any of the actual things materializing.
Margret Grebowicz (46:54):
And they actually did set a bunch of it
on fire. I know that it's thisdifferent spelling of the word
fire. I know. Yeah. But theyactually did set, like, I think,
the sound stage on fire.
I mean, people were just towardsthe end, people were pissed, you
know. And I don't blame them.And somehow, all of this echoes
that airport architecture to
Christopher Schaberg (47:12):
me. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (47:13):
And this and this feeling of being trapped.
Right?
Christopher Schaberg (47:16):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (47:17):
And we all know that feeling of when the
airplane is grounded and theywon't let you off the plane.
Christopher Schaberg (47:22):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (47:23):
And there's only so long you can take that
for.
Christopher Schaberg (47:26):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (47:26):
Or you're in the airport and you can't leave
because you're waiting for thenext flight. You know, you're
gonna have to sleep there orthey have your bag or something.
But there's something thatcompletely robs you of agency.
Christopher Schaberg (47:37):
Oh, that reminds me of an early news
article when, like, we werefirst, like, getting back in the
air again and airlines wereopened up again, and it was sort
of like, time to fly again. Youknow, there were all these labor
shortages, of course, becausethe airlines laid off or
furloughed a bunch of theirworkers. And so when the
airlines started flying again,there were inevitably delays and
(47:58):
cancellations. And there was oneaircraft that was sitting on the
tarmac for so many hours, andtwo of the passengers and their
dog just decided to pop the theexit door and just, like, slide
out a wing. They're just like,fuck it.
We're out of here. That isprobably a very common feeling.
I mean, we know that is. But,like, to to do it, you know?
Margret Grebowicz (48:17):
To do it, no. No one ever does it. Right? It's
the impossible thing. There isno exit.
Christopher Schaberg (48:21):
Yeah. Yeah. So So what about you? What
about I mean, what is the futurewith of the great adoption or
the this new moment that we'restill inhabiting with rescue
dogs?
Margret Grebowicz (48:32):
What the great adoption inaugurated was
this explosion in industry andwork around dogs. So any kind of
dog adjacent job, there are nowway more of them than there were
before.
Christopher Schaberg (48:43):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (48:43):
And I think that's one thing to look at
closely. What's gonna happen tothat? What's going to happen to
all those jobs? Are people goingto continue adopting at these
rates? Are we gonna continuethis life in which having a dog
is more normal than not havingone?
I don't know what those numbersare going to look like. The only
place that I can kind of try tofigure them out is when I look
(49:04):
at the projections for all thosedog care industries, training
especially. There's massivegrowth projected for the
training market. And all ofthat, apparently, is being
fueled by millennials.Millennials are the dog
generation.
I don't know what those numbersare, actually. I don't follow
population tracking
Christopher Schaberg (49:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (49:23):
Yeah. Enough to understand what's happening
to population, for example, inThe United States. But the pope
did come out with that statementrecently that said, you kids
that are, you know, adoptingdogs and cats instead of having
children, you're doing somethingthat is going to profoundly
change. I think it was basicallylike, whatever you're getting to
in place of a child, don't befooled. Don't think that you can
(49:46):
actually, you know, replace achild.
He doesn't see he didn't saythat. He just said this
threatens our humanity. That'sall he said.
Christopher Schaberg (49:52):
Right. Right. Right.
Margret Grebowicz (49:53):
I think he's right. You know, of course, this
went viral and everybody waslike, stupid poop. Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (49:59):
No. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (49:59):
But I think I think he's he's right. Like
Christopher Schaberg (50:02):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (50:03):
He's pointing to a profound shift in what
counts as social life and whatcounts as family and in what
counts as a satisfyingrelationship where people are
looking at you know, we're alsodealing with questions of
mortality. We were faced withour own mortality in this very
dramatic way very briefly, butwe were. And what did people do?
(50:24):
They asked themselves, am Idoing what I wanna be doing?
Christopher Schaberg (50:28):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (50:29):
Am I living where I wanna be living? Am I
with the person I actually wannabe with? Is this career that
I've built, is this what Iwanted? And I think a lot of the
questions were about sacrifice.Were the sacrifices worth it?
I think that's the question thatso many people confronted.
Christopher Schaberg (50:45):
And dogs become, like, a much more vivid
or visceral register of, like,satisfaction, intimacy,
connection?
Margret Grebowicz (50:53):
Absolutely. I don't know of anyone asking
themselves the question aroundtheir dog, was it worth it? But
we are very much asking thatquestion around our marriages.
Christopher Schaberg (51:03):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (51:03):
I think a lot of women are definitely asking
the question around havingchildren. That doesn't mean they
don't love their children.Right? That's not what we're
talking about. But it is aquestion that, you know,
contemporary women have toconfront.
Is this how I wanna do my life?
Christopher Schaberg (51:16):
Right. And now where I live also becomes a
factor in that, how my body isbeing controlled.
Margret Grebowicz (51:22):
Yeah. And what and what I can afford.
Right? I mean, we're talkingabout the people who are trying
to be homeowners in the citieson the coasts, for example,
where it's just absolutelyimpossible to buy anything. How
are they going to organize theirfinances?
How are they going to plan theirfinancial future? What are they
going to quote, unquote investin? And I mean that broadly.
Christopher Schaberg (51:43):
I'm having this kind of increasingly
awkward conversation with myeight year old daughter,
Camille, who really, reallywants a dog. It's forcing me
into these kind ofuncomfortable, awkward
conversation. I mean, theseyou'd have to talk about, like,
well, maybe if we were to moveto a place where we would have,
you know, more space, well,well, can we move well? You
(52:04):
know? And, like, well, wherewould we move?
Well, you know, it's forcing usto have these conversations that
we wouldn't have if we weren'ttalking about having a dog right
now in 02/2022 in all of ourvery specific kind of economic
and not to mention, like,environmental circumstances?
Margret Grebowicz (52:22):
Mhmm. Just returning to the question of
what's gonna happen, I don'tknow. I think dog ownership has
already become and is going tobecome more so a kind of theater
for economic disparities.
Christopher Schaberg (52:35):
Mhmm. Yep.
Margret Grebowicz (52:36):
Dog food is becoming more and more
expensive. We know there's arecession coming. But if I want
healthy food for my dog, I gottago in and pay, like, $80 a bag.
I mean, prices that are arealready prohibitive for many
people and pretty soon willbecome completely prohibitive.
How much food costs, how muchvet care costs, both of those
things are going to startlimiting what's available to
(52:58):
people and what's available towhom.
Right? So there will still, atthe same time, of course, always
be the backyard breeders who aregoing to be trying to make money
by selling dogs at a hundredbucks a pop or $300 a pop or $50
a pop because people are gonnaneed money. I think we're gonna
see a growing gulf between akind of upwardly mobile dog
(53:21):
ownership caught up in all kindsof other cultural trends, like,
tied to other cultural trendsabout the good life, and then
the dogs in rural life, dogs in,working class contexts, dogs in
prison contexts, dogs in, like,tent cities.
Christopher Schaberg (53:41):
Well, I was actually wondering, yeah.
Were there many dogs that thatwould stock 99 or whatever?
Margret Grebowicz (53:45):
No. I don't think I don't think any dogs
were allowed inside.
Christopher Schaberg (53:48):
I mean, I I have to know what happened to
the dogs around that. Because Iknow they were they weren't all
just kenneled up for theweekend. Thank you so much for
joining us today. I hope youread Rescue Me and maybe even
Grounded, and I hope you'll joinus for the next chapters of
these projects.
Margret Grebowicz (54:07):
So thank you so much for listening and for
being interested in Rescue Me.And, you know, if you've got a
dog at home, go cuddle your dog.And I look forward to talking to
dog lovers and thinkers aboutwhat it's like to to live with
dogs and what the future holdsfor all of us.
Christopher Schaberg (54:23):
And if you have a trip coming up, pay close
attention or maybe even thinkabout canceling it and doing
something at home instead, likereading a book.
Hi. My name is Margaret Grebowitz, and I am
associate professor ofhumanities at the University of
Silesia, which is in Poland. AndI'm also visiting faculty at
Hampshire College this year. AndI'm here to talk about my latest
book, which is called Rescue Me,on dogs and their humans, out in
the forerunner series. It's thelatest book that I've written in
(00:40):
a series of books that are allon different subjects.
I'm interested, generallyspeaking, in environmental
imagination and inenvironmentalism as culture, and
I'm interested in questions ofdesire. This question of desire
led me to write this book when Iwondered to myself, what is it
we actually want from dogs? Istarted writing this before
(01:00):
there was any talk of anythinglike a great adoption. But I
finished it, after we'd alreadycoined this term, the great
adoption. And so, clearly, bythe time I was done, there was a
phenomenon to point to and talkabout.
So, yeah, I guess it's a bookabout the great adoption, and it
asks the question, what is itthat we want from dogs today?
Christopher Schaberg (01:21):
Hello. My name is Christopher Schaeberg.
I'm a professor of English atLoyola University, New Orleans,
and I've, sort of spent mycareer researching and writing
about air travel. And my secondto last book was called
Grounded, perpetual flight andthen the pandemic. And this was
a forerunners book about thestate of air travel right up to
(01:44):
and then during the first fewmonths of the COVID pandemic.
And this is a subject air travelthat won't leave me alone. As
much as I try to get it out ofmy system. It just keeps flying
back in. I guess in some ways,my question is very similar to
Margaret's, what do humans wantfrom air travel? This is
(02:05):
actually one of the first timesI've had a chance to reflect on
the forerunners book, which waswritten very quickly as the
world of flight was changingdramatically over 02/2020.
So I'm really excited to talkabout these two books together
that seem to both be kind oftaking the the pulse of
something that's either fightingfor life or coming back from the
(02:27):
dead or something. I don't know.That's a bad metaphor.
Margret Grebowicz (02:31):
Yeah. I mean, I I think the reason that we
decided to put these twosubjects into conversation with
each other, subjects that Ithink most people would say are
either unrelated or verytangentially related, is because
we're both interested in thesemass phenomena that changed
around COVID.
Christopher Schaberg (02:49):
Right. Yes. Phenomena that in many
ways, we just we we took forgranted, and we took for granted
the ways that they wererepresented and mediated and
enacted in everyday life. Andthen we had these changes that
we're still very much livingthrough.
Margret Grebowicz (03:04):
Yeah. It's funny. I was reading your book,
and I'm like, wow. It's a bookabout COVID. And then I looked
at my book, and I was like, thisis also a book about COVID,
which is how you know, certainlynot how I would have described
it when I first started thinkingabout it.
Christopher Schaberg (03:15):
Yeah. And, I mean, for me, I was I was
working on this book. Well, theopening pieces were written
before COVID, and I was just itwas like table scraps from my
other books on air travel, andit was just like the remainders
that I was still kind of workingthrough. And then when COVID
hit, it was like, oh, well, thisstuff still matters more than
ever in some ways. And your bookreally has that feeling.
(03:36):
I mean, these are dilemmasyou've been thinking through
with dogs and companion speciesfor many, many years, but
suddenly they took on all thesenew dimensions.
Margret Grebowicz (03:45):
I was going to ask ask you what that was
like for you when they announcedthe lockdown. And, of course,
everyone already had ticketsbought to, you know, go to their
academic conferences or whateverit was. Right? So at some point,
you must have realized, like,oh, right. Something's about to
happen.
Something unprecedented is aboutto happen to air travel.
Christopher Schaberg (04:05):
It was especially strange for me here
in New Orleans because, as Italk about in the book, we had
just opened this brand newairport. After many, many years
of construction and hype, they'dfinally just opened the new
airport, and it it opened togreat acclaim, and everyone was
excited about it. And this wasin November 2019. So it had
(04:25):
about two months or three monthsmaybe of increasing numbers of
air travelers, and then it wasnothing. And I just found that
so fascinating that you that howsomething that seems to have so
much obvious promise could justsuddenly become defunct or
obsolete.
A lot of the earlier parts ofthe book are me just kind of
like registering that. So Ithink it was back in 02/2014. I
(04:51):
read your book, Margaret, theNational Park to Come, which was
right in line with my longinterests in, environmental
philosophy and ecologicalthought. And I was blown away by
that book. Even though it didn'tseem to be directly or at all
related to air travel, I askedmy editor to put your name on
the list of potential endorsersfor my book, The End of
(05:14):
Airports, which was coming outin 02/2015.
And you very graciously blurbedthat book before I knew you. And
when I emailed you to thank you,I sort of ended the email with,
oh, and by the way, I edit thislittle book series called object
lessons if you ever wanna do alittle book about something. And
you wrote back and you said thatI thought you'd never ask. I've
(05:35):
been stalking that series sinceit launched and yes. And so we
then had this very spirited backand forth, and you ended up
writing Whale Song for objectlessons, a book that I love and
which was a perfect fit for theseries.
And that sort of started ourfriendship and collaboration in
in a lot of other endeavors.It's and it's kind of just been
branching out across theenvironmental humanities and the
(05:58):
public humanities and differentinitiatives that we've both been
a part of. And so I was just sohappy when this intersection of
having these two forerunnersbooks happened.
Margret Grebowicz (06:08):
Mhmm. Yeah. I wrote my forerunners book
because you encouraged me to.So, yeah, I did this because
when you wrote grounded, yousaid, you know, this is a really
good experience to go throughthis, and you should do it. And
I thought, okay.
I'll do it. But, yeah, for me,getting that email about the end
of airports was one of theweirder moments of my academic
career because I thought, mygosh. I'm supposed to blurb a
(06:30):
book about airports? I don'tknow anything about airports.
And then when I looked at theproofs, I realized it was so
close to the way I was thinkingabout national parks and that
these are the kinds ofconversations I wanna be having,
like conversations that deal notso much with a concrete subject
matter, but more about, youknow, how to think about things,
how to frame phenomena, and howto frame change.
(06:53):
And so I so we've been doingthat for a few years now. We got
a few good years. Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (06:57):
We have. We have and as we've gotten to
know each other, I you know, youmade some joke when we were
texting once about something anda joke about we were talking
about Derrida or Lyotard, andyou said something about that
old time religion. And, youknow, we both do come out of
this, you know, strong kind ofpost structuralist philosophy
tradition. And yet, we've reallytried to to turn this work
toward I wouldn't say just,like, practical ends, but just
(07:20):
to a different mode of ofwriting and getting this work
out in these kind of shorterform crossover platforms. Like,
forerunners is has made a spacefor this that's been really
dynamic.
And, my series object lessons,your new series practices coming
out with Duke, like, these areplaces where it's just been so
gratifying to see all the thephilosophical and critical
(07:42):
inquiry that I think animatedboth of us early on. We're still
doing all that work even ifwe're not doing it in the same
way.
Margret Grebowicz (07:50):
Mhmm. So go so returning to your question,
for me, I had wanted to write abook about dogs for completely
personal reasons that I go intoin the book a little bit. Like,
it was time for me to confront amajor episode in my life in
which I lost my first dogtragically, and I and I wanted
to start confronting thosefeelings, addressing the being
(08:10):
with those feelings in writing,however loosely, and seeing
where that took me. Imagine myabsolute surprise when, as I was
already well into the process ofkind of thinking about this as a
very personal book that kind ofdoesn't have anything to do with
other people or mass phenomena.And suddenly, it became clear
(08:31):
that one of the effects of thelockdown was this massive, you
know, upswing in pet adoptions
Christopher Schaberg (08:36):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (08:37):
Which is something that I thought none of
us would have predicted. Right?When we all thought that
everyone was going to die, wedidn't predict that one of the
major, major nationalconversations in the media for
months was going to be aboutdogs and cats, which it was.
Christopher Schaberg (08:52):
And you even find yourself firsthand in
this position at one point inthe book and in your life of
suddenly you are adopting a newdog, which is its own intense
drama and point of hope andsadness, which does kind of
stand in in sort of weird,relation to the more I guess,
just like, isolated somber moodof the time, if that makes
(09:16):
sense. You know, that likeyou're like, we're alone, but
like suddenly being togetherwith someone or something else
takes on even more energy andpotential, but also potential
for things to go wrong.
Margret Grebowicz (09:28):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (09:28):
I love those scenes in the book where
you're describing, like, what itwas like to embrace this new dog
and then, spoiler alert, thenhave to let it go again.
Margret Grebowicz (09:38):
Right. Right. She was a hoarded dog. Right?
She came from a hoarding case.
So I actually opened the book bytalking about dog hoarding, but
not in the way that you mightexpect. I confessed to being a
dog hoarder in my heart, And Ithink this is something that
many dog lovers will relate tovery quickly. I mean, everyone I
talk to sort of wishes theycould adopt more dogs. So given
(09:59):
that that's such a normalemotion for people who have made
a life with dogs, It's it'squite normal to wish that you
could take in all the dogs inthe world.
Christopher Schaberg (10:09):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (10:09):
Right? Given that, it's interesting how very,
very hard we come down on actualdog hoarding. Right? How hard we
come down on it. And the more welearn about dogs, the more
there's kind of a more and morepopular conversation about what
it is that dogs need to to havea good life and how we've been
getting certain things wrong,and we need to do them better,
(10:30):
and what could we do better.
And then it's like who emergessort of as this ultimate figure
of animal abuse in this story isthe dog hoarder. But meanwhile,
we've all got these weird quasihoarding emotions Right. That
are also motivating us. And, youknow, and of course, all of this
is set. I tried to set it in alarger background conceptual
(10:53):
landscape of hoarding or maybescarcity.
Right? Scarcity in latecapitalism. Right? What does it
mean that we are all we'reafraid of this coming poverty,
right, of this coming scarcity?It's being announced now that
we're all gonna have to tightenour belts, tighten our belts,
tighten our belts.
And we're tightening our beltsnot just materially, but we're
also tightening our beltsemotionally around a lot of
(11:13):
things and socially andintersubjectively around a lot
of things.
Christopher Schaberg (11:17):
I was thinking about that a lot as I
was reading your book, how itis. This it works allegorically
in relation to these largerthreats of, you know, supply
chain issues and consumerhoarding and, yes, scarcity that
these are these are things thatwe can learn from not just in
the context that you're talkingabout dogs, but it's actually,
like, reverberating on thesemuch vaster scales of economy
(11:39):
and and sociality.
Margret Grebowicz (11:42):
So I did have to take Maybelline back. I was
only fostering her, but I washoping that she would be a
classic foster fail and that Iwould keep her forever. But I
did have to take her backbecause the behavioral problems
were so pronounced, and I didn'thave enough support to deal with
them. Come here. Come here,Waffles.
Here he is. Here he is. He'sgonna sit down now. I think it's
(12:02):
important to have thoseconversations that are sort of
very honest about how we fail asdog parents, yep, right, in a
serious way precisely becausewe've got this this situation.
You know, my subtitle is on dogsand their humans, but the book
initially began with a totallydifferent subtitle.
And it was dog abundance andsocial scarcity.
Christopher Schaberg (12:22):
Scarcity. Yeah. Something like that.
Margret Grebowicz (12:23):
Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (12:23):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (12:24):
I really try to kind of give a sense of a
feeling of dog abundance, whatI'm calling dog abundance. But
it could also be, you know, wecould also call it dog
overpopulation. It's that thereare all these dogs, wild dogs
and domestic dogs. And they'rewith us everywhere all the time.
And then there's this big kindof machine of, like, producing
(12:45):
dogs and destroying dogs.
That's all part of the sameadoption and shelter
infrastructure. You know, to me,it very much mirrors the human
situation. It mirrors thesituation that we're in, which
is like there are so many of us,and yet everything feels so
impoverished.
Christopher Schaberg (13:02):
Right. So many of us and so much from some
perspective, so much abundanceof resources or capital,
frankly, and yet these gaps andfissures where everything sort
of falls through.
Margret Grebowicz (13:14):
And then the weird emotions around it all.
Like, I was watching the dodovideos. The dodo is a is a is
like a Facebook channel wherethey show these very heartfelt
video, like, sort of heartwrenching videos about most of
them are success stories, butthey start out so in fact, I
think they're all successstories. But they start out so
(13:35):
tragic that that's how they pullyou in right away. And it's like
some dog whose mange is so badthat he just doesn't have any
fur on him at all, and he's justshaking, and he can't see
because the mange has closedsealed his eyes and things like
that.
And it's like, oh, this dog wasfound on the street. I started
looking at them more and moreclosely, and it's like most of
them are coming from countrieswhere there is a huge street dog
(13:57):
tradition and street dogculture. I mean, most of these
videos are actually not comingfrom The United States, but
we're watching them as if theywere. We're watching them as if
they were sort of telling thestory of this culture today.
Right?
That it's somehow hitting onemotions that we're feeling now,
and it's and it's sort ofexacerbating them and massaging
them in various ways. But theactual content is coming from
(14:21):
countries and cultures in which,you know, there's very much a a
long tradition of dogs that livearound that don't have human
owners. They just kind of hangout. Right? Scavenger dogs on
the street.
And but yet we some we somehowthink this is very much our
story, and that tells mesomething. The fact that the
dodo is such a huge hit showsthat we want something from
(14:44):
these stories.
Christopher Schaberg (14:45):
And there's this threshold of
inaccessibility. I mean, you endwith this really poignant scene
about the coyotes. Or, actually,they they come in at a few
points, but they then you reallyend with this. There's this
realm of dog life that will willremain inaccessible. And that's
something we sort of have toconfront and not just in an
abstract sense, but it could bebecause it also, like, it it's
(15:05):
it informs our mundanerelationships with these other,
you know, companions.
Margret Grebowicz (15:10):
Yeah. Very much. I own a Basenji. One of my
dogs is a Basenji. And theBasenji is, from what I
understand, geneticallyspeaking, sort of the oldest dog
breed.
They're the ones that are sortof I don't know if you can hear
the little pitter patter, butthat's my chihuahua waffles.
He's just walking around. Yeah.Basenjis are this ancient breed.
(15:30):
They're still very, unalteredfrom their original state, so
they're called the Africanbarkless dog.
They don't have a barkingmechanism because, of course,
wild dogs, wild canids don'tbark. Wolves don't bark. Coyotes
don't bark. And the older youget in a breed, the less of a
barker you have. Right?
(15:52):
So huskies, which are Alaskanmalamutes, that family of dog,
which is also super, super old,almost as old as the Basenji,
they also don't really bark thatmuch. They tend to kind of howl
and sing. Husky owners love totalk about that husky sound that
they make this. There's a lotof, like, talking. Like, there's
there's a ton, by the way, ofTikTok videos of huskies
(16:16):
talking, which is its ownphenomenon.
But, yeah, I own a Basenji, andthe reason I bring this up is
because I know other Basenjiowners. I know how highly
coveted the breed is, how muchBasenji owners love to talk
about how it's not for everyoneand you have to really be ready.
You know, if you're gonna own aBasenji, you gotta be ready for
a lot of problems. And it's thiskind of it's not your normal
(16:39):
kind of dog, and there's thismythos around the breed. And
it's absolutely the mythos thatyou might have a wild dog at
home.
That's the appeal, and that'swhy so many people get their
Basenjis from breeders. It'sit's one of those breeds that if
you want one, you're gonna haveto pay for a puppy because
they're so rare still. They'reconsidered a sort of elite dog.
(17:00):
They're very popular in Russiaright now among, again, like,
you know, wealthy owners.They're a symbol of wealth.
And whatever that does I mean,this is new. This wasn't the
case twenty years ago. Basenjiwas not the dog everybody wanted
twenty years ago. And the reasonI think the reason they want it
now is because, you know, whatwe're what we're after now is
(17:20):
this wild inner life of the dog,right, to which we don't
actually have any access.
Christopher Schaberg (17:27):
So what's what's so fascinating to me
hearing you talk about this,Margaret, and and it just sort
of clicked with me. You talkabout various social media
trends in the book, and you justmentioned a few, the TikTok,
huskies. And you just mentionedthat duration of, like, over the
last twenty years, there's beenthis increase. On the one hand,
humans would seem to be aftersomething very primordial almost
(17:49):
or very, you know, an artifactof real contact with something
wild. On the other hand, this isgetting kind of amplified or
revved up by these new digitalmedia technologies and
communicative methods that arejust so, ubiquitous on social
media.
I wonder how you think aboutthat, in terms of, like, what is
(18:12):
that tension, or is it notattention at all? Is it act is
it actually revealing somethingabout what we think of as
something, you know, new newmedia, but in fact is tethered
to something a lot, well, youknow, older in scare quotes? I
don't know if that's the rightword.
Margret Grebowicz (18:27):
That is sort of my take on this. It's it's a
version of what you just said.The content that we're sharing,
the conversations that we'rehaving having about dogs on
social media are veryparticular. They're not just any
conversation. And it's less andless the stuff about, like, cute
cute.
Mhmm. I'm sure you remember thatwhen we had, like, the cute cat
(18:50):
videos. Right? That was a thingfor a while.
Christopher Schaberg (18:52):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (18:53):
And it was all about cute animals, and
that's what we shared. And infact, when Instagram animals
became a thing, the first dogson Instagram were the cute ones,
the ones that could be, youknow, made to wear glasses and
bow ties, you know, tutus andthings like that. And those were
the ones who became, like,Instagram influencers. And I'm
(19:13):
sure that that's still around,but the latest social media
phenomenon, really, the big oneis TikTok, and that's no longer
about the cute dogs. Dog talk,as we call it, dog talk is more
focused on debates around whatdogs need.
I like to talk about thetraining wars that are sort of
(19:35):
taking place on TikTok, andthey're between actual trainers,
but they're also between schoolsof training. Most notably,
balanced training, which usescorrection as well as positive
reinforcement, and then purepositive, which uses no
correction and uses onlypositive reinforcement. This
tension is sort of the bigconversation, this this debate,
(19:58):
which one of them is right andwhich one of them is more
effective, is the big debate ondog talk right now. So the fact
that we're talking about that, Ithink, is is really key. The
fact that all of theconversations we're having seem
to point back to a certain setof questions, and that is, what
did that first moment ofdomestication actually look
like?
(20:18):
How did the wild dog become ourdog? And how did we become these
people who can't live withoutdogs?
Christopher Schaberg (20:24):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (20:25):
Whatever else we're talking about, whether
it's food in my book, I focus onthree things. One is the
adoption infrastructure. Thesecond one is food and
enrichment toys, and the thirdone is training. And I think
that all three of them areactually deep down interested in
the same grounding questions andsort of grounding concepts. And
(20:47):
it's about, like, taking us backto a state of nature.
What was that like when therewas a kind of original sociality
and an original being in theenvironment that was not broken?
Right?
Christopher Schaberg (21:01):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (21:02):
A being with nature that wasn't sort of
fundamentally broken oralienated. And in that moment,
we had the beginning of thisoriginal interspecies
friendship. All of theconversations are ones where
we're arguing about what thatactually was. It's all stuff
like trying to actually do thepsychology of the dog and trying
(21:23):
to understand what dogs reallywant and trying to give
evolutionary explanations forwhy dogs want this and not that
or why humans want this fromdogs and not that. Right?
Or why we feel this way and notsome other way. So I think this
is exactly, you know, whatyou're what you're saying. We
are turning to all the newplatforms for social life while
at the same time longing for akind of primordial social life.
(21:47):
So I that's what I see it. I seeit as, like, an ultimate I don't
know I don't know what the Idon't know what the Lacanians
would call it.
Neurosis, hysteria, psychosis. Idon't know what it expresses,
but it seems to express somekind of, like, strange, quote,
unquote, mental illness. Right?The more we get caught up in
these new platforms, the morewhat we're after is the truth of
(22:09):
some real way of being naturaland together in the world.
Christopher Schaberg (22:15):
Yes. Yeah. I don't wanna force the
connection here or the jump, buteverything you've just been
saying, it's to me, it's likethe obverse and what has
fascinated and and what I'vebeen obsessed with about air
travel for all these years.Because it seems like the
opposite in some ways, likepeople's desire to fly. And
sometimes that becomes like ahysterical thing.
(22:35):
I mean, like, seeing how muchyou can fly, how often, how how
many miles, you know. It's allabout escaping, or it would seem
to be about escaping some kindof more grounded state of being.
Or is it that I I think aboutjust, like, humans traveling and
generally coexisting in thesesmall little metal tubes for a
(22:56):
couple hours, and everyone'sjust barely tolerating it. And
it's like everyone knows it's,like, the worst, and you're just
trying to, like, get back to theground, I guess. But the way to
do that is to travel really fastin these little things, which
everyone sort of, like, hatesbut needs.
What you were saying made methink about how the dynamic is
similar but kind of flipped withwhat people want from from air
(23:19):
travel. It's like trying toescape that what would you call
it? That being in nature.
Margret Grebowicz (23:24):
That earthbound kind of like, but
like a healthy earthbound vibe.
Christopher Schaberg (23:28):
Yeah. And instead of it being, like, about
an interspecies connection, it'smore about, like, an
interspecies connection thatwe're trying to avoid or
overcome almost.
Margret Grebowicz (23:37):
But what's interesting is I started paying
closer attention to all of therhetorics around air travel only
after I met you when I was like,of course. Of course, this is
something to look at closely. Ohmy gosh. I'd actually love to
ask you about this because theway we imagine air travel and
the way we talk about air travelhas has changed. Right?
It changes decade to decade, andI'm thinking of the shift from
(24:01):
air travel as a form of luxury.
Christopher Schaberg (24:03):
Mhmm. The golden age of
Margret Grebowicz (24:05):
air travel. Age. Right? Yeah. To to when it
becomes
Christopher Schaberg (24:13):
foils. And
Margret Grebowicz (24:14):
then it becomes this thing that, like,
suddenly everyone can afford.Everyone, quote, unquote, can
afford. Right? And then itbecomes kind of not so good.
Right?
When it when it becomes thisaffordable thing sort of
democratized in some way, or Idon't know I don't know what to
call it. When you talk aboutthis thing that we all hate but
have to do or feel like we haveto do. Right? We all kinda hate
it, and it kind of it kindasucks. Wasn't there a bunch of
(24:36):
conversations about how to makeit better?
Because I remember somethinglike that. I remember that the
research around, like, what theideal airplane cabin
Christopher Schaberg (24:45):
would
Margret Grebowicz (24:45):
be like or what is enough legroom.
Christopher Schaberg (24:48):
Well, even at the beginning of the
pandemic, you know, like, theaircraft manufacturers like
Boeing being you know, sayinglike, well, wait a minute. Don't
you all realize we've made thesenew aircraft like the Dreamliner
that have these awesome airfilters? So, actually, airplanes
are the safest place you can be.And it it was actually true that
those airplanes, like the theJuly Dreamliner and planes, even
(25:10):
like the 07/30 sevens, the newerones, they were more pleasant to
be in just atmosphericallybecause there was a lot of
conversation about, like, let'sjust make this a better
experience. But then in a lot ofways, the pandemic just
shattered that because it waslike, oh, you can't get away
from the base fact of just we'reall gonna be crammed in here
together, and some of us aregonna be sick even if we don't
know it yet.
And that, of course, led to thegrounding of flights, which led
(25:32):
to the explosion of pandemicdogs, actually. But, yeah, I
mean, I think you talked about,like, the democratization of air
travel, but also it startedbecoming more gritty and grimy.
And then, of course, there wasthe post 09/11 securitization of
air travel, which also led to, Ithink, like, a few years of
(25:53):
renewed pride around theexperience and a sense of, like,
no. This is something we reallyneed to protect and appreciate.
But then that went away tooafter after a while, and it just
kinda slumped back into more ofthe same.
There just does seem to be thisconstant struggle to both, like,
make the experience better andmore accessible to more people,
(26:14):
but also just always admittingthat it's something we we'd
really rather not do, or youcan't really get away from it
from the more abject parts ofit. I think that all just kinda
got cashed out during thepandemic. I mean, there were
some people who were like, oh, Ireally miss traveling, but but
there were also a lot of peoplewho said, wow. I don't I really
don't miss traveling by plane. Imean, I felt like that, and now
(26:34):
I feel like a total charlataneven writing about air travel
because I don't do it anymore,and I don't really wanna do it.
Margret Grebowicz (26:39):
Yeah. But I I think that's why it's so
important to have a kind ofrenewed attention to and focus
on not just planes, but airportsfor true love, which is
airports.
Christopher Schaberg (26:51):
Yes. Yes.
Margret Grebowicz (26:52):
Because they're all coming back, but
they're coming back different.
Christopher Schaberg (26:56):
Yes.
Margret Grebowicz (26:57):
And it's interesting to see what the
difference is and how they'reframing the difference and why
you and I and everyone shouldreturn to air travel, right, and
why it's really great. So whenyou, you know, when we talk
about it getting better, we meanbetter in particular ways.
Right? So how have the airportsbeen advertising being better,
for example? The last fewairports I was in over this past
(27:17):
year, because I did have to fly,everything is under construction
Christopher Schaberg (27:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (27:22):
More than ever before. It's under, like,
like, really dramaticconstruction, and it's always
pardon our dust. We're makingthese amazing, you know,
improvements.
Christopher Schaberg (27:32):
Which is really probably more about,
like, labor shortages and supplychain snafus that mean that they
just projects have been takinglonger as we all know. Things
are left half done or but you'reright. Very much like the the
way these things are marketed asis as progress. Progress you're
seeing progress in action. I'mfinishing this new book right
now on adventure, which you knowabout a little bit, Margaret.
(27:55):
And one of the things I'venoticed is the airlines
pitching, like, there's oneDelta ad that says, you know,
ready for your next adventure?You know, the skies are open
again or something like that.The world is open to travel.
That's what it says. And so it'svery much like inviting us back
in to fly both as an adventureitself or to an adventure.
(28:17):
It's really interesting to mehow there's that kind of
glossing over of the thedifference between those two
possibilities because I don'tthink flying has really changed
that much. And in fact,everything I hear from friends
and family over the last year orso is that it's pretty much as
awful as it's ever been, if notworse. But on the other hand,
it's like, are we gonnaexperience this in new ways? Is
(28:39):
it gonna mean somethingdifferent to us now? Which also,
I mean, just reminds me a lot ofhow you're talking about the
great adoption and, oh, like,now we understand why we need
dogs.
Now that we're in lockdown, nowthat we're alone together with
our friends or fan or justfamily or alone period, like,
now I understand why I need adog, and I will I will treat it
(28:59):
differently now. There's thatsame kind of rhetorical couching
of desire there, I think. On theone hand, with dogs, it would
seem like we're trying toreclaim something deep in our
nature. Whereas with, like,getting back to air travel is
like getting back to the cusp ofprogress, escaping who we were
back when we were in wagons orwhatever or trains. Like, no.
(29:23):
We gotta get back in the air.You know, keep going forward. I
mean, maybe there's somethingbetween these two activities
that exposes a real existentialrift.
Margret Grebowicz (29:32):
Yeah. I mean, I I'm super curious about what
you've found since the bookbecause your book's been out a
lot longer than mine. Right. Agood, you know, year and a half
or something like that. Yeah.
And I'm wondering I mean, somuch has happened since then. I
mean, you know, most notably forus normal people just dealing in
the with the world, the spacebillionaires, billionaire space
(29:55):
race. Right? This idea of spacetourism and, like, a new luxury,
a new golden age with thisfantasy that we're gonna
inaugurate this new golden ageof space tourism. What's
happened since the book came outthat you've been thinking like,
okay.
Here are the next moments ofthis stuff I'm thinking about.
Christopher Schaberg (30:14):
Well, yeah. I mean, actually, a
magazine out of London recentlyasked me to write kind of the
epilogue to this book becausethey like the book grounded, and
they wanted me to kind of answerthat question you just posed.
Like, so where are we now? Acouple years later, like, you
know, what has happened? What'sgonna happen next?
I mean, one thing is is I wasflipping through my book after
(30:34):
not looking at it for a while.People actually started flying a
lot sooner than the aviationexperts really predicted. People
predicted this would stretch outto like 02/2324. And certainly,
the effects will still be felt.But, you know, airlines and
travelers were pretty eager toget everything going again, like
get back to the pre COVID levelsby last summer.
(30:54):
I mean, we're not quite thereyet, I don't think, but, like,
they were eager to just let'sget back as soon as possible. No
surprise, I guess. But, ofcourse, at the same time, you've
got, you know, science writersat the Atlantic pointing out
that we didn't really learn thelessons from that pandemic and
it's not gonna be the last andthis will likely or something
like it will happen again andshut down air travel. And we've
(31:15):
seen now how fragile the systemis, air travel. I don't know how
much more or how many times thewhole, like, infrastructure and
system could take that kind of,like, absolute abrupt shutdown.
And so I think while people are,like, eagerly getting back in
the skies, there's also justthis maybe mostly unconscious
(31:35):
knowledge or awareness that,like, this could all go away
tomorrow because we've seen ithappen. And it could go away,
maybe not for good, but it couldhave to change in ways we can't
even yet imagine. I was actuallyreading I talk about this in the
piece that I just wrote. KimStanley Robinson's novel, The
Ministry for the Future, has anamazing scene midway through the
(31:55):
book that takes place in theFebruary. I don't really wanna
describe the whole scene, butit's basically a day that
changes air travel forever or orat least from that point on.
Like, it's not going back. Andit was amazing for me to read
that because I think it speaksto, again, just that awareness
that, like, we we've seen ithappen. It could happen again,
(32:16):
and it might be more longlasting. It might necessitate
changes that we really arerepressing at this point. Like,
the the idea that we mightactually, you know what?
Stop flying these airplanes.Maybe we fly in a different way,
a slower way, or maybe werecommit to, like, rail or a
different kind of sea travel.But that that chapter could
close, and that's a veryunpopular position.
Margret Grebowicz (32:38):
But it's a position you've had for years.
Christopher Schaberg (32:40):
Right. Yeah. No. No. I mean, this is
why I wrote a book called TheEnd of Airports.
Margret Grebowicz (32:43):
Yeah. That was my first book that I read by
you.
Christopher Schaberg (32:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (32:46):
That's how we met, right, was around that
book. And I was like, oh mygosh. There could be an end of
airports? And this was now yearsago. You've been predicting
that, of course, all of this isis on the wane.
Of course, it is.
Christopher Schaberg (32:58):
That book was 02/2015, and I was really
writing a lot about how digitaltechnologies and especially,
like, smartphones were reallychanging dramatically the
experience of flight and what weexpected from what we wanted
from flight compared with whatwe were getting on our little
handheld magic computers. And Iguess that was another link
earlier when you were talkingabout, like, the social media
(33:19):
and how we are channeling ourdesires with our animals into
these machines or how we'rereceiving those desires from
across the interwebs. It alsoseems like you are locating a
kind of nascent I don't know ifit's what quite a crisis point,
but there's some kind of shifthappening. There's a third party
here. Right?
There are a third object. It'slike it's not just humans and
(33:40):
dogs. It's humans and dogs andTikTok. And I guess for me, in
02/2015, it was like, oh mygosh. This isn't just about
humans and airplanes anymore.
This is about humans andairplanes, and everyone has an
iPhone. And that was to me whatwas precipitating what I was
calling the end of airports. Itsounded outlandish at the time
and it probably still soundsoutlandish to some. But then we
(34:00):
saw a version of this happenwith the pandemic. We're not we
can't fly anymore.
Oh, guess what? We have Zoom.We're we're good. You know?
Margret Grebowicz (34:08):
Right. Yeah. Because, ultimately, all of
these things are symptoms of afantasy of social life.
Christopher Schaberg (34:13):
Right. Right.
Margret Grebowicz (34:14):
I mean or of different I'm not saying it's
one fantasy. This is what we'retalking about. This is what's
motivating all of this stuff isa certain fantasy of what social
life could be.
Christopher Schaberg (34:24):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (34:24):
Which means we're in crisis around social
life. Otherwise, there would beno reason to keep looking for
the better form of it.
Christopher Schaberg (34:32):
Right. Whether that means traveling to
a new place or or the kind ofmanic drive to travel to ever
new places, or there was areason why those stories about
COVID, you know, adoptions ofpets were going so viral because
that that was also about, like,we need to not only recast our
desires, but also, like,remediate them. I had this story
(34:53):
that I I told you about over thephone a couple months ago, but I
still don't really know what todo with. But it was the story of
my partner's cousin's husbandwho is a veteran who has a
service dog, and they weretraveling over the summer
traveling by air. And when theygot to the airport, they
realized that they hadn'tregistered the service dog at
the right time period.
You know, they were supposed togive twenty four hours advance,
(35:15):
but they hadn't. But,apparently, that was a new rule,
and he didn't realize they hadto. They would have let him on
the flight, but not the servicedog. Of course, that wasn't
gonna happen to someone whoneeds their service dog. And so
it was a, you know, a minorcatastrophe and logistical
nightmare, and it all was sortedout.
But I it just got me thinkingabout, like, on the one hand,
like, the airport with itsprotocols, the I mean, service
(35:37):
dogs are now, like, the legibleform of real social life, and
yet, like, where that runs intoproblems or where we can't,
like, fit that in to these otherforms of social life. And it was
also, like, different, like,competing vectors of authority.
I don't know. I just it wassomething that when it happened,
I was like, oh my gosh. I wannatalk to Margaret about this
because what the heck was goingon there?
Margret Grebowicz (35:58):
I would like at some point to come up with a
really robust reading of theservice dog phenomenon, which,
again, is not a new phenomenon,but the rhetoric around it keeps
changing.
Christopher Schaberg (36:10):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (36:10):
So there's always a a newness to contend
with around it. I was justvisiting Quabbin Reservoir,
which is right in WesternMassachusetts, and I went there
with my dogs because of, youknow, it's this massive tract of
wild unpeopled land. So, ofcourse, I'm gonna go there with
my dogs. And everything wasfine. Dogs were on lead.
Nobody was, you know, breakingthe law except I didn't know
(36:31):
that dogs were not allowed. Andso I was stopped by the police.
And they said, are these servicedogs? And I said, no. And
they're like, yeah.
No dogs allowed in QuabbinReservoir. And I was like, okay.
Sorry. And then, you know, weran off and whatever. But then I
thought about it.
And, of course, the reason, asthe officer explained to me, the
reason is that their feces arebad for the water. This is a
reservoir that supplies over 40%of the water of Massachusetts.
(36:55):
And so we can't have dog fecesaround at all. They also have,
interestingly, a gull harassmentprogram in effect so that gulls
do not set up shop. Basically,they have all kinds of, like,
interesting things.
Like, they have fake coyotes.They have coyote decoys out
there to scare Canada geeseaway. So waterfowl or at least
(37:17):
certain species of waterfowl aresuper problematic to the area to
to that, and they would justtotally set up shop around the
reservoir if they were allowedto. So they're constantly being
harassed and driven away.
Christopher Schaberg (37:28):
Wait a minute. Presumably, there are
fish in the reservoir.
Margret Grebowicz (37:31):
Oh, yes. Don't ask me.
Christopher Schaberg (37:33):
It's this kind of interesting limit case
for, like, whose poop is okay, Iguess.
Margret Grebowicz (37:38):
Yeah. And what is a healthy ecosystem? And
totally not what I thought. Ithought, like, a massive
freshwater place with nowaterfowl. I I would never have
thought that that's good, butthat's what they're trying to
maintain.
Christopher Schaberg (37:52):
But wait a minute. You said if you if it
would have been a service dog,it might have been okay?
Margret Grebowicz (37:56):
Yeah. So I'm like, so why is service dog poop
okay? I think it has to do withthe imaginary around the service
dog and what and, you know, thisidea that some dogs are
necessary and others aren't.This is something that I really,
over the next few years, wannalook into very seriously, but I
have to do a lot of researcharound the history of the
service dog and why it has thiskind of exceptional status
(38:18):
beyond sort of the obvious, youknow, why it has this
exceptional status, and thenwhat happened in that exquisite
moment of the emotional supportanimal, which was a very short
lived moment. But there was thisalmost ecstatic mass phenomenon
moment where the world said, ofcourse, all domestic animals are
support animals.
Christopher Schaberg (38:39):
A lot of those narratives played out on
social media on airplanes
Margret Grebowicz (38:43):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (38:43):
Where someone would have their peacock
in a seat next to them.
Margret Grebowicz (38:47):
Yeah. Well, that was just one time.
Christopher Schaberg (38:49):
But there were there were many, many
social media, like, oh my gosh.Look what this person brought on
the plane.
Margret Grebowicz (38:54):
Like an eye roll. Right? Like Yeah. All it
Christopher Schaberg (38:56):
was like Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (38:56):
A peacock. Sure. Right? But, actually,
there was I remember flyingduring that time, and it was
this wonderful time where therewere all these dogs around
airports, and it was kindaweird. And they pee and there
was, like, dog pee that someonehad to go clean up and all that
stuff.
Christopher Schaberg (39:09):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (39:10):
But it was kind of amazing that Yeah. The
idea that you could just flywith your dog and suddenly all
your plans around flying couldbe different and your experience
of flying could be different?
Christopher Schaberg (39:19):
I mean, in my my home airport up in
Northern Michigan, the TraverseCity Airport, has this amazing
little outdoor dog park, like,past security. This incredible
accommodation and commitment ofsquare footage in an airport,
which is, like, premium at, youknow, value. This is potentially
part of a much bigger project ora kind of, like, opening move
(39:40):
for a larger book.
Margret Grebowicz (39:41):
Yeah. No. That's right, which, of course,
is what forerunners sometimesis, wonderfully. What I have
here are three chapters. I mean,I guess if you count the
introduction, like, fourchapters that are really kind of
dense and intense littlecritiques.
Christopher Schaberg (39:55):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (39:56):
And I wanna see what I could do on the more
hopeful end of things. Yeah.Yeah. It's one thing to take
apart dog owner culture and showhow much it's a kind of
projection space for all kindsof delusional fantasies.
Christopher Schaberg (40:09):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (40:10):
But it's another thing to then say, okay.
How should we be with dogs?Like, re like, really? What does
this mean? I mean, this is kindof the the question that you're
asking about air travel too.
Or maybe the question that comesup when we think about the end
of air travel, right, is thenhow do we do it right in a way
that isn't going to becompletely co opted by the
market?
Christopher Schaberg (40:29):
I think that's right. That's exactly
right.
Margret Grebowicz (40:31):
What would it mean to have, like, a more real
and honest and productive andhopeful relationship with dogs
on the large scale? Because,again, with dogs, just like with
airplanes or with air travel,you're dealing with a with a
tragedy of the common situation.Something that everyone wants
access to.
Christopher Schaberg (40:48):
And something that sometimes
brutally exposes our own speciesintrusion to any, you know,
notion of what a commons orshared space.
Margret Grebowicz (40:57):
Mhmm.
Christopher Schaberg (40:58):
I mean, ownership. Right? It's this is
what is ownership?
Margret Grebowicz (41:02):
I'm sort of changing the topic here a little
bit, but I was thinking aboutthe little tiny short piece in
your book that's called ode toempty airports. This is related
to the question of, like, whatnow and what should happen now
and how could we think aboutdoing it right? What should
happen with airports?
Christopher Schaberg (41:17):
Well, you know, the old airport, the
abandoned airport in New Orleanssince we got our brand new
airport. And the old airport, bythe way, was kind of fine. But
that has since been leased as askate park where they've been
filming these skater events,which is kind of fascinating. I
mean, these these are largespaces we're talking about, not
just the runways and tarmacs,but just, like, large built
(41:39):
spaces. And it does seem to methat there are all kinds of
possibilities for reimaginingthese spaces.
But, I mean, again, that soundsa bit radical, if not post
apocalyptic. I mean, we get theversion of that in the the novel
and then TV series adaptationstation 11, which imagines how
people might survive and eventhrive in an airport that no
(42:00):
longer has airplanes flying inand out of it. There's also that
great film, Tripoli Cancelled,filmed in an abandoned airport
outside of Athens, I believe,sort of reimagining what that
space looks like when you don'thave passengers coursing through
it or airplanes taking off. ButI mean, it's really hard to
think this when overwhelminglythe cultural drive is for more
(42:23):
and get back into the sky anddon't miss out and get your
miles back in in shape again.And there's just such a I feel a
little weird using this word,but there's such hegemony around
around flight Mhmm.
That it's really hard to tothink anything otherwise.
Margret Grebowicz (42:40):
Like, we can't imagine the end of flight.
Like, we can't imagine the endof capitalism. Right?
Christopher Schaberg (42:46):
Yeah. And that goes back to actually your
first question. For me, I thinkI mean, I remember before the
lockdowns happened at thebeginning of the pandemic, we
left town as things werestarting to shut down, and we
quarantined up in NorthernMichigan. And I just remember
the unbelievable silence in thesky where there had been before
always planes coming over fromEurope on their final descent to
(43:09):
Chicago. And it was just soquiet.
And I'd never even reallynoticed before that, like, of
course, there's always, like,seven forty sevens flying
overhead even up in this, like,remote part of Michigan. But
realizing, like, wow, that'sjust a distinct difference,
We're just like atmospherically,environmentally, ambiently.
It'll be very interesting to seeover the next two decades how
(43:32):
the pressure is put on airtravel and how humans respond to
those pressures and if, if wehave new ways of reimagining
travel.
Margret Grebowicz (43:42):
I just recently saw a film about
Woodstock ninety nine, which wasthis music festival that took
place in 1999. And they calledit Woodstock. They used the
Woodstock brand, but theyactually held it in Rome, New
York, which is a suburb ofUtica. And they held it in an
abandoned airplane hangar, likea military hangar
Christopher Schaberg (44:02):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (44:02):
Where they took these people, and I think
it was some sort of, like,200,000 people or something like
that, and closed them in thisspace. And it turned into just a
complete disaster, famously so.I actually don't remember when
it happened, but my partnertalks about remembering hearing
about it on the news, what acomplete disaster it was because
they didn't have the rightsanitation. I mean, the water
(44:25):
was filled with feces. Peoplewere getting, like, trench mouth
from drinking the water.
They had taken all of theirwater bottles away when they
this is interesting. Right? Theytook all their water bottles
away when they entered to forcethem to buy water from the
concessionaires. And then therewas so much chaos and so many
people and so much price gougingand, of course, like, some kind
(44:45):
of very dramatic, very seriousdrug scene. There was a rape
tent that went on for about fourdays, apparently.
There was no security to speakof. There were multiple reports
of sexual assault afterwards on,like, underage girls. There was
apparently this massive chaoswhen you take well, imagine
taking 200,000 people, stickingthem into this space which is
(45:07):
supposed to be again, talk abouta fantasy of sociality. It's
supposed to be Woodstock. Right.
Right? The ultimate social happyplace. And instead, what you
have is a flat military, like,airplane hangar space that's
empty, and everyone in theredoesn't have enough to drink.
It's hot. They don't have aproper place to go to the
(45:30):
bathroom.
The bathrooms aren't beingcleaned. And then you bring in a
bunch of, like, late ninetiesmetal bands to play. Korn, the
Red Hot Chili Peppers, thesekinds of bands. And it was sort
of the opposite of what you'retalking about as here is this
abandoned airport architecturethat is trying to be something,
(45:50):
but actually it can't be. Andmaybe one of the reasons it
can't be is because of thearchitecture.
Christopher Schaberg (45:56):
Exactly. Yeah. And because of just the
history embodied in thatarchitecture. Right? That
everything I mean, it's it's thetwentieth century encapsulated,
as it were.
Margret Grebowicz (46:05):
And that you can't overcome. Like, there's no
that there's reimagining and butreimagining actually has its
limits.
Christopher Schaberg (46:10):
Yeah. That's really interesting.
Margret Grebowicz (46:12):
Oh, it was called you'll like this, Chris.
It was called Trainwreck,Woodstock ninety nine.
Christopher Schaberg: Interesting. Okay. (46:18):
undefined
Margret Grebowicz (46:19):
Mhmm. It was a, like, a docuseries. And no
one really knows what happeneduntil much later. It was only
much later that we go in and wefind out what was actually going
on and what drove people tobecome, you know, really out of
their minds. It was, you know,one of the great insights into
the phenomenon of the massstampede or what happens when
you put a bunch of peopletogether and you promise them a
(46:41):
good time, but you take away allof the infrastructure that they
need to actually make itsuccessful.
Christopher Schaberg (46:47):
It also is sounding a lot like that, the
Fyre Festival Yeah. Justwithout, like,
Margret Grebowicz (46:51):
the feeling or or
Christopher Schaberg (46:52):
any of the actual things materializing.
Margret Grebowicz (46:54):
And they actually did set a bunch of it
on fire. I know that it's thisdifferent spelling of the word
fire. I know. Yeah. But theyactually did set, like, I think,
the sound stage on fire.
I mean, people were just towardsthe end, people were pissed, you
know. And I don't blame them.And somehow, all of this echoes
that airport architecture to
Christopher Schaberg (47:12):
me. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (47:13):
And this and this feeling of being trapped.
Right?
Christopher Schaberg (47:16):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (47:17):
And we all know that feeling of when the
airplane is grounded and theywon't let you off the plane.
Christopher Schaberg (47:22):
Right.
Margret Grebowicz (47:23):
And there's only so long you can take that
for.
Christopher Schaberg (47:26):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (47:26):
Or you're in the airport and you can't leave
because you're waiting for thenext flight. You know, you're
gonna have to sleep there orthey have your bag or something.
But there's something thatcompletely robs you of agency.
Christopher Schaberg (47:37):
Oh, that reminds me of an early news
article when, like, we werefirst, like, getting back in the
air again and airlines wereopened up again, and it was sort
of like, time to fly again. Youknow, there were all these labor
shortages, of course, becausethe airlines laid off or
furloughed a bunch of theirworkers. And so when the
airlines started flying again,there were inevitably delays and
(47:58):
cancellations. And there was oneaircraft that was sitting on the
tarmac for so many hours, andtwo of the passengers and their
dog just decided to pop the theexit door and just, like, slide
out a wing. They're just like,fuck it.
We're out of here. That isprobably a very common feeling.
I mean, we know that is. But,like, to to do it, you know?
Margret Grebowicz (48:17):
To do it, no. No one ever does it. Right? It's
the impossible thing. There isno exit.
Christopher Schaberg (48:21):
Yeah. Yeah. So So what about you? What
about I mean, what is the futurewith of the great adoption or
the this new moment that we'restill inhabiting with rescue
dogs?
Margret Grebowicz (48:32):
What the great adoption inaugurated was
this explosion in industry andwork around dogs. So any kind of
dog adjacent job, there are nowway more of them than there were
before.
Christopher Schaberg (48:43):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (48:43):
And I think that's one thing to look at
closely. What's gonna happen tothat? What's going to happen to
all those jobs? Are people goingto continue adopting at these
rates? Are we gonna continuethis life in which having a dog
is more normal than not havingone?
I don't know what those numbersare going to look like. The only
place that I can kind of try tofigure them out is when I look
(49:04):
at the projections for all thosedog care industries, training
especially. There's massivegrowth projected for the
training market. And all ofthat, apparently, is being
fueled by millennials.Millennials are the dog
generation.
I don't know what those numbersare, actually. I don't follow
population tracking
Christopher Schaberg (49:23):
Yeah. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (49:23):
Yeah. Enough to understand what's happening
to population, for example, inThe United States. But the pope
did come out with that statementrecently that said, you kids
that are, you know, adoptingdogs and cats instead of having
children, you're doing somethingthat is going to profoundly
change. I think it was basicallylike, whatever you're getting to
in place of a child, don't befooled. Don't think that you can
(49:46):
actually, you know, replace achild.
He doesn't see he didn't saythat. He just said this
threatens our humanity. That'sall he said.
Christopher Schaberg (49:52):
Right. Right. Right.
Margret Grebowicz (49:53):
I think he's right. You know, of course, this
went viral and everybody waslike, stupid poop. Yeah.
Christopher Schaberg (49:59):
No. Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (49:59):
But I think I think he's he's right. Like
Christopher Schaberg (50:02):
Mhmm.
Margret Grebowicz (50:03):
He's pointing to a profound shift in what
counts as social life and whatcounts as family and in what
counts as a satisfyingrelationship where people are
looking at you know, we're alsodealing with questions of
mortality. We were faced withour own mortality in this very
dramatic way very briefly, butwe were. And what did people do?
(50:24):
They asked themselves, am Idoing what I wanna be doing?
Christopher Schaberg (50:28):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (50:29):
Am I living where I wanna be living? Am I
with the person I actually wannabe with? Is this career that
I've built, is this what Iwanted? And I think a lot of the
questions were about sacrifice.Were the sacrifices worth it?
I think that's the question thatso many people confronted.
Christopher Schaberg (50:45):
And dogs become, like, a much more vivid
or visceral register of, like,satisfaction, intimacy,
connection?
Margret Grebowicz (50:53):
Absolutely. I don't know of anyone asking
themselves the question aroundtheir dog, was it worth it? But
we are very much asking thatquestion around our marriages.
Christopher Schaberg (51:03):
Yeah.
Margret Grebowicz (51:03):
I think a lot of women are definitely asking
the question around havingchildren. That doesn't mean they
don't love their children.Right? That's not what we're
talking about. But it is aquestion that, you know,
contemporary women have toconfront.
Is this how I wanna do my life?
Christopher Schaberg (51:16):
Right. And now where I live also becomes a
factor in that, how my body isbeing controlled.
Margret Grebowicz (51:22):
Yeah. And what and what I can afford.
Right? I mean, we're talkingabout the people who are trying
to be homeowners in the citieson the coasts, for example,
where it's just absolutelyimpossible to buy anything. How
are they going to organize theirfinances?
How are they going to plan theirfinancial future? What are they
going to quote, unquote investin? And I mean that broadly.
Christopher Schaberg (51:43):
I'm having this kind of increasingly
awkward conversation with myeight year old daughter,
Camille, who really, reallywants a dog. It's forcing me
into these kind ofuncomfortable, awkward
conversation. I mean, theseyou'd have to talk about, like,
well, maybe if we were to moveto a place where we would have,
you know, more space, well,well, can we move well? You
(52:04):
know? And, like, well, wherewould we move?
Well, you know, it's forcing usto have these conversations that
we wouldn't have if we weren'ttalking about having a dog right
now in 02/2022 in all of ourvery specific kind of economic
and not to mention, like,environmental circumstances?
Margret Grebowicz (52:22):
Mhmm. Just returning to the question of
what's gonna happen, I don'tknow. I think dog ownership has
already become and is going tobecome more so a kind of theater
for economic disparities.
Christopher Schaberg (52:35):
Mhmm. Yep.
Margret Grebowicz (52:36):
Dog food is becoming more and more
expensive. We know there's arecession coming. But if I want
healthy food for my dog, I gottago in and pay, like, $80 a bag.
I mean, prices that are arealready prohibitive for many
people and pretty soon willbecome completely prohibitive.
How much food costs, how muchvet care costs, both of those
things are going to startlimiting what's available to
(52:58):
people and what's available towhom.
Right? So there will still, atthe same time, of course, always
be the backyard breeders who aregoing to be trying to make money
by selling dogs at a hundredbucks a pop or $300 a pop or $50
a pop because people are gonnaneed money. I think we're gonna
see a growing gulf between akind of upwardly mobile dog
(53:21):
ownership caught up in all kindsof other cultural trends, like,
tied to other cultural trendsabout the good life, and then
the dogs in rural life, dogs in,working class contexts, dogs in
prison contexts, dogs in, like,tent cities.
Christopher Schaberg (53:41):
Well, I was actually wondering, yeah.
Were there many dogs that thatwould stock 99 or whatever?
Margret Grebowicz (53:45):
No. I don't think I don't think any dogs
were allowed inside.
Christopher Schaberg (53:48):
I mean, I I have to know what happened to
the dogs around that. Because Iknow they were they weren't all
just kenneled up for theweekend. Thank you so much for
joining us today. I hope youread Rescue Me and maybe even
Grounded, and I hope you'll joinus for the next chapters of
these projects.
Margret Grebowicz (54:07):
So thank you so much for listening and for
being interested in Rescue Me.And, you know, if you've got a
dog at home, go cuddle your dog.And I look forward to talking to
dog lovers and thinkers aboutwhat it's like to to live with
dogs and what the future holdsfor all of us.
Christopher Schaberg (54:23):
And if you have a trip coming up, pay close
attention or maybe even thinkabout canceling it and doing
something at home instead, likereading a book.
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