April 21, 2023 • 43 mins
Lichens are composite organisms made of a fungus and an alga or cyanobacteria thriving in a mutually beneficial relationship. The Lichen Museum looks to these complex organisms, remarkable for their symbiosis, diversity, longevity, and adaptability, as models for relations rooted in collaboration and nonhierarchical structures. Author A. Laurie Palmer channels the personal, the scientific, the philosophical, and the poetic to imagine a radical new approach to human interconnection. Palmer is joined in conversation with Art after Nature series editors Giovanni Aloi and Caroline Picard.
A. Laurie Palmer is an artist and professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz.
Dr. Giovanni Aloi is an author, educator, and curator specializing in the representation of nature and the environment in art. Aloi is editor-in-chief of Antennae: The Journal of Nature in Visual Culture.
Caroline Picard is a writer, cartoonist, curator, and executive director of Green Lantern Press.
Praise for The Lichen Museum:
"A deeply engaging, provocative, humorous, and moving account of why we should pay more attention to lichens. As lichens can be found anywhere, the entire surface of the earth becomes the lichen museum." —Heather Davis, author of Plastic Matter
"Meditative and inquisitive." —Foreword
"Reading this work feels like taking a series of walks with a particularly curious and sensitive companion, consistently attentive to otherwise neglected facets of the actual environment." —e-flux
Learn more about The Lichen Museum at the University of Minnesota Press website.
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Episode Transcript
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Giovanni Aloi (00:09):
Projects like yours to me can become
blueprints and models that showus how we can recover different
knowledges.
Caroline Picard (00:18):
There is no pretense that the natural
environment isn't present allthe time.
A. Laurie Palmer (00:24):
They really are doing this unbelievable
symbiotic project of creatingsomething that when they're
separate is nothing like what itlooks like and what it does when
they're together.
Giovanni Aloi (00:42):
Welcome to a new Art After Nature podcast. My
name is Giovanni Aloy. I am theco editor of the series with my
colleague Caroline Piccard. Theseries publishes books on nature
and the Anthropocene. At a timeof unprecedented ecological
crisis and cultural change, ArtAfter Nature explores the
(01:03):
epistemological questions thatemerge from the expanding
environmental consciousness ofthe humanities.
Authors featured in this seriesengaged with the recent
ontological turn appendinganthropocentrism in order to
grapple with the dark ecologicalfluidity of nature cultures. The
anthropogenic lenses of inquiryemphasize an ethical focus for
(01:25):
grounding the more than humanpolitics of our era.
Caroline Picard (01:29):
I'm Caroline Piccard. I'm the coeditor with,
Giovanni Loy. We're all herewith a Lori Palmer on behalf of
the fourth book in our series,The Lycan Museum. It's really
exciting to be here, obviously,and let me just say a little bit
about this book. Serving as botha guide and companion
(01:51):
publication to the same name,the Lichen Museum explores how
the physiologicalcharacteristics of lichens
provide a valuable template forreimagining human relations in
an age of ecological and socialprecarity.
Channeling between the personal,the scientific, the
philosophical, and the poetic, aLori Palmer employs a cross
(02:13):
disciplinary framework thatartfully mirrors the collective
relations of lichens, imploringus to envision alternative ways
of living based oninterdependence rather than
individualism and competition.Lichens are composite organisms
made of fungus and algae orcyanobacteria thriving in a
mutually beneficialrelationship. The lichen museum
(02:35):
looks to these complex organismsremarkable for their symbiosis,
diversity, longevity, andadaptability, as models for
relations rooted incollaboration and non
hierarchical structures. Intheir resistance to fast paced
growth and commodification,lichens also offer possibilities
for humans to reconfigure theirrelationship to time and
(02:56):
attention outside theaccelerated pace of capitalist
accumulation. Bringing togethera diverse set of voices,
including personal encounterswith lichenologists and lichens
themselves, Palmer both imaginesand embodies a radical new
approach to humaninterconnection.
Using this tiny organism as anemblem through which to navigate
(03:17):
environmental and socialconcerns, this book narrows the
gap between the human andnatural worlds, emphasizing
mutual dependence as a necessarymeans of survival and
prosperity. A Lori Palmer is anartist and professor at the
University of California, SantaCruz, and we are so happy to be
here with you. Maybe just tokick things off, I thought it
(03:40):
would be really exciting to hearabout how this book came to be
and what made you start thinkingabout the lichen museum.
A. Laurie Palmer (03:51):
Laurie? Thank you, Caroline and Giovanni and
Maggie for this talk and alsofor University of Minnesota to
publish this book. Yeah. I'm I'mvery grateful to all of you to
be here. Like any long termproject, I think this one is a
convergence of a lot ofdifferent desires and
experiences over a long periodof time.
(04:12):
I've think I've been interestedlike a lot of people in lichens
for most of my conscious life,maybe even pre conscious, like
being outside in the woods andexploring. I also was interested
when I went on a I went on anartist residency in the Arctic,
the Arctic Circle residency, andwas aware that the one thing
(04:36):
growing in that environment waslichens. There are some little
tiny trees that grow about sixinches tall, but basically
that's it. And so I've I'vefound myself really, really
fascinated by looking down inthis amazing icy snowy landscape
and looking for these thingsthat had really, really long
temporalities. So partly I thinkI I was alerted to look for them
(05:00):
because going to the Arctic in,I think it was that was in 2010,
I was already thinking about howdo we think beyond our own
lifetimes?
How do we think outside of ourlimited, you know, human scope?
And and I think a lot of peoplegoing on these trips to cold
places where the the glacierswere melting and all that were
(05:23):
thinking along these lines. Andit seems like lichens provided
this sort of in between time tothink with, so they weren't as
ancient as as long geologicalepics and eras that are really
mind boggling, but they were inthese middle ranges of time
between well, some lichens areare shorter term, but many of
them are hundreds of years, somethousands, even speculatively,
(05:47):
some ten thousand if they areliving in Antarctica inside the
ice. So so I was reallyinterested that way. And then it
started to just snowball allthese different ways that
brought me back to learning moreabout the symbiosis, which I
know is sort of a poster childfor many other ideas about
(06:09):
symbiosis, but the lichens arekind of the first in many ways
to open that up.
And, I started to just see inthem so many possibilities. And
then I remembered that I hadmade lichen ink in 1990, and I
still had it hanging around. Andso there were all these threads
that started to tie together.
Caroline Picard (06:29):
Do you feel like you're like, I guess I'm
interested in how yourrelationship to Lycan, how that
might have changed your approachto your own art practice if it
did, thinking about modes ofpresentation, your relationship
to institutional space. But thenalso something that you talk
about quite a lot in the book isjust kind of like the act of
(06:51):
seeing or what it means to bepresent in relation to seeing.
And all of those things seemlike they necessarily affect the
way you might engage your ownwork as an artist making. That's
why I was interested in I don'tknow. Just hearing you talk a
little bit about thatdevelopment.
A. Laurie Palmer (07:11):
Yeah. Those are really, really central
questions, Caroline. I think theidea of the Leica Museum as a
art project in terms of a frameto see the all the world as a
museum that's sort of turnedinside out, I think is very much
about having had a non objectbased art practice most of my
(07:32):
life. I and, I started as aprintmaker, but then got into
sculpture and increasinglysculptures that were time based
and destroyed themselves orevaporated or whatever. But
thinking about the larger worldof living and that, certainly
played into the work I didcollaboratively with the group
for twenty years, actually,where we were really focused on
(07:57):
experiential space in many ways.
I mean, I never really madethose connections before until
you asked this question exactly,but I think I was really
interested in looking away fromthe established institutions,
not to dismiss them altogether,but to play with turning them
upside down or inside out. And,actually, Caroline, you offered
(08:17):
this amazing opportunity inChicago in 2015 to stage the
Leica Museum as an institutioninside another institution. And
what we did for that in thegallery you ran in Chicago was
to show some some video, butalso to direct people outside to
(08:37):
the sidewalk where people werepretty quickly down on our hands
and knees with our nose to thesidewalk in the middle of, you
know, the West Side Of Chicago.And so there was this way of
just thinking of museum as not aplace that things have to be
stilled and killed andpreserved, but instead, a museum
(09:01):
as the space of living and thespace of experiencing and the
space of relating. I did travelto, visit several lichenologists
before I was thinking about thisbook, but just as part of
thinking about lichens andinterviewing them.
And in one herbarium in The UK,I think it was in sorry. It was
in Northern Ireland. Thiswonderful paleontologist who is
(09:23):
also a lichenologist, you know,led me through these drawers of
desiccated little bits ofthings. And it was really hard
to imagine how they could embodywhat lichens are. And instead, I
just was thinking really wherethe archive should be is out in
the world, and that's where Iwanna direct people.
So in many ways, this book iskind of like a a companion to
(09:46):
direct you outside and to to belooking. And that gets back to
your other question about theproblem of seeing, really, which
is historically and thecertainly the traditions that I
grew up in as a white person inWestern culture, but much bigger
than that is a uneven balance ofpower between the human who's,
(10:07):
who's looking, turning whatthey're looking at into an
object. So it's a subject objectrelation. And it's really hard
to imagine getting outside ofthat, but I I'm aware of it as a
imbalanced structure of powerthat is deeply connected to
natural history practices evenas natural history is wonderful
(10:28):
as a way to get people to lookat the world and be in the world
and to be surprised more thananything. But it's still how do
we get outside of that powerrelation so that our relations
with what we are communing withare not happening in this sort
of hierarchical ladder of value.
(10:49):
And so I think there's so muchthat is being written and
discussed these days that's veryrevelatory and exciting that
tries to make horizontal ourrelations, you know, in the more
than human world that I knowyour series has everything to do
with. So that those structuresof power, those uneven
(11:09):
structures of power are notbeing reinforced every time
we're an observer. And so Itried to think about looking at
lichens because they're soalready horizontal most of the
time, at least in Logan Squarewhen we were on our knees in the
sidewalk, but also becausethey're so small and they seem
to be, in many ways, in thosehistorical ladders of of value
(11:32):
from the Greeks on in Westernculture at the very bottom. And
so what would it mean to communewith with these beings that are
already sort of devalued in inmany ways, and to imagine them
as subjects at the same time, oreven to imagine ourselves as
(11:53):
objects and objects. So justshifting the imbalance of
subject to object.
And I don't, you know, pretendthat it's something you can just
do quickly, but I think it'sreally interesting as an
experiment. And I see thepremise of this book in many
ways and the project of theLeica Museum as an experiment in
(12:13):
thinking and doing and seeingdifferently. I just wanna say
also that I've had somewonderful lichen walks lately
since the book came out, whichhave been really fabulous. And
one of them this last weekendwas in Santa Cruz at the new
Institute for the Arts andSciences that is currently
(12:34):
hosting a series calledVisualizing Abolition that
they've been working on forseveral years, actually. And so
they invited me to do anabolitionist Lycan walk.
And it made so much sense to mebecause they had perceived,
they'd recognized within thebook and its content that this
is what basically, you know,it's trying to do. Abolition as
(12:56):
they understand it in thisreally broad term and as I do
also isn't just about takingdown prisons. It's about
undermining and taking down allof those structures that are
oppressive to, especially,certain peoples over others and
to rebuilding other ways of ofseeing and doing and being in
relation. So I was so gratefulfor that invitation, and it was
(13:20):
amazing. There were 50 peoplewho came to this walk.
I've never given a walk with somany people, and I didn't have
enough lenses, which was reallya shame. But part of the thing
about Likensit is maybe this isone of the things that I should
have started by answering yourquestion about how did I get
there. Is there collectivity? Imean, as a person who's very
(13:40):
focused on the potential and thenecessity of shared beingness,
rather than competitiveindividualism, I really love the
idea that people share thelenses. So maybe that was a good
a good part of the whole walktoo.
Giovanni Aloi (13:57):
Laurie, you say so interesting. And this this
new relationship between theinside and the outside and also
kind of upturning the powerstructures, The power of the
gaze inside and outside made methink of a clip that I play for
my students in plants and artclass at the School of the Arts
Institute of Chicago, which isfrom the New York Botanic Garden
(14:19):
archive. And in the clip, thedirector of the botanical garden
in New York shows differentspecimens. And at some point,
she unfolds a tiny little paperparcel. And inside it, there's a
tiny fragment of a lichen thatwas collected by Darwin.
And And at that point, mystudents always laugh because
there is this, like, almostceremonious unfolding of this
(14:42):
piece of paper, and she's in amassive archive filled with so
many plants. But this one tinyfragment of a lichen that's
unrecognizable is the thing thatshe wants to show. Part of that
laughing, I I always questionwhat what's funny about this?
After a while, we get to thepoint that the lichen is the
most unlikely organism for thearchive. It just doesn't it
(15:04):
seems wrong for it to be therebecause it's perceived as
something that is alwaysattached to something else.
And once you remove it, it canonly really come off as a
fragment. And once it's afragment, it no longer is
remotely what it was meant tobe. While a dried plant might
look brown and might lookshriveled, it still sort of
retains some sort of plantnessthat makes sense. That lichen
(15:27):
seemed to just become afetishized relic of some kind.
You know, the only thing thatreally seemed to matter is that
it was collected by Darwin.
Otherwise, it's just a littlespike of vegetal matter or, like
actually, not just vegetalmatter, but multi organism
matter. And it kind of made methink about what you're saying,
you know, the idea of the gazeand opticality and and what is
(15:49):
the point of seeing and wheredifferent registers of
visibility perhaps are more aptto what we can see and what we
should see today. So in thecontext of seeing, I was
interested since you throughoutthe book, you talk about your
collaborations and experienceswith scientists. I was curious
(16:09):
to hear more about yourexperiences in sort of aligning
your gaze with their gaze, andif you could tell us a little
bit about that experience.
A. Laurie Palmer (16:19):
Yeah. That's a that's a really wonderful
anecdote and entry point,Giovanni. I did have a similar
thing happen in this, herbariumin, Northern Ireland. But what
made the connection for theperson who was unwrapping these
little bits of things were thestories. You know?
Who it was who collected thembecause he happened to know if
(16:41):
not know them personally, thenhe knew of them through like and
lore. And so the stories werebeing unwrapped. It really had
very little to do with thisfluffy bit of stuff or dusty bit
of stuff. And so that wasactually one connection, you
know, that they were throughtelling the stories, talking
about being outside collectingor about the biography of these
(17:05):
people and their relations in a,you know, broader sense to other
parts of the world. So it openedup a lot even as the thing
itself was was just an excusekind of at that point.
I did have a very specificagenda when I was I learned so
much, and I was so surprised andjust amazed by whom I got to
speak to when I was doing thisresearch and tracking down
(17:28):
people. The main agenda that Ihad to make sure to ask each of
them was about how they woulddescribe the relation between
the fungus and the algae.Because in my reading about how
it was described, it was alwaysa power relation. It was always
that the fungus was the masterand the algae were the slaves.
(17:49):
And there were very many otherdescriptors, like the fungus
were vampires sucking the lifeout of the algae or the fungus
had the algae in sexual slaveryof some sort or I mean, it was
like a lot of human fantasiesprojected onto these things,
which, of course, I'm doing acertain amount of projection
myself in writing this book, buthopefully to undo those
(18:12):
particular understandings as ifthey were naturalized or common
sense kinds of relationships.
And so I was asking thelichenologist to consider the
algae giving themselves intothis relation, not being taken
or captured or imprisoned. Andit made for really interesting
conversations. And I didn't havean automatic, I don't wanna talk
(18:33):
to you. It was more like, let'stalk, but, you know, I don't see
it that way. Or even actually,maybe the most generous was,
well, that's a narrative.
You know? And I said, well, it'salso a narrative to say that it
that it's this imbalance powerrelation, and then they would
have to admit that. You know?But I have to say, I I gave a
talk at the also just in thepast couple of months at the
(18:56):
Santa Cruz Natural HistoryMuseum, and there was a
lichenologist in the audiencethere. And he insisted that
those imbalanced power relationsare not how US Lichenologists
understand it now, which I foundto be really hopeful and
interesting.
Although I have to say it's notexactly been my experience
talking to, like, an allergistin The US, but I really
(19:18):
respected that he said that andthat he saw that change coming.
I also think that thatparticular person was not
particularly amenable to thekinds of ways that I was talking
about lichens. That too, thecrowd was huge. It was really it
was standing room only at theNatural History Museum. It was
(19:39):
so wonderful, and people werevery, very they had wonderful
questions.
But this one person who was sortof in the field, I really hoped
to talk to him, but he kind ofscurried away. And I'm trying to
reach out because it's not thatI feel like we have to agree,
but I am very interested in how,as an artist, you know, these
(20:02):
ideas can touch, reach, youknow, have relations with many
different kinds of otherprofessions and perspectives.
And it's part of what I wantedI've always wanted to do as an
artist is not remain within a acertain bubble of audience, but
to be engaged with ideas andpractices that could reach a lot
(20:23):
of people. And I have to saythis is probably the most multi
tiered project that has donethis because I'm also getting
emails from people who are, youknow, since the book has come
out, who are like an enthusiast,like an artist saying they wanna
connect. And it's really great.
They're not turned away by theconceptual dimension of the book
(20:45):
so far, it seems, most of them,and are instead just glad to
meet another enthusiast. And soit's really and also the kids.
The kids that come on thesewalks are are some of the most
acute discoverers of of where tosee on the tree or the sidewalk.
Giovanni Aloi (21:02):
Yeah. There is also, I think, a dimension in
this context, Laurie, is alsothe idea that for a while, I
always feel a little bituncomfortable when I call out
how science, as in a way,impoverished our world because
I'm afraid that sometimes peoplejump to the conclusion that it's
some kind of discounting thevalidity of science, but it's
(21:23):
it's more complicated than that.You know? I think there's a lot
of work that we need to do inthe West to appreciate how
science has created an enormousamount of knowledge. And at the
same time, as it is well known,it has purged all other
knowledges aside and anddiscounted their value.
(21:43):
And I think projects like yoursto me can become blueprints and
models that show us how we canrecover different knowledges and
rearrange certain voices. But Ithink sometimes in my
experience, some specialists intheir field feel very protective
of the conversations, theterminologies, and and the
trajectories of narratives thatare allowed or not allowed. And,
(22:06):
it would probably take time,right, to, break the mold. There
is also a a level of feelinguncomfortable, I think, in that
arena that is a productive kindof feeling uncomfortable, but
it's perhaps not yet foreverybody. It takes work.
So you were talking about timeand a certain different
perception of time itself.Sometimes I feel that we're all
on different time frames when itcomes to where we are at with
(22:29):
our relationship, with ourdisciplines, and already we
might or might not be to pulldown the walls that keep us in
that professional space.
A. Laurie Palmer (22:38):
Yeah. I mean, one of the things about making
this book, which sort of cameout of the longer project, was
wanting to have multiple voicesfrom different disciplines
threading through it andcarrying some of the
conversation in the book itself.I really interested in in
writing, but I'm also reallyinterested in in dialogue and
(22:59):
having these cross disciplinaryconversations. And the grad
program that I've been directingand now at UC Santa Cruz
environmental art and socialpractice, it's all about trying
to mix these differentdiscourses and or to find where
they are useful together. I alsoam really aware that there's a
(23:20):
kind of fear of softening of allall of our, intellectual
capacities if we do too muchmixing.
And I think that that'ssomething that, you know, I am
always in terror of also,especially living in California.
You know? Northern California.Not to diss Northern California.
It's wonderful.
Here I am in Mendocino in acabin in the woods. But it's so
(23:43):
it's a fine line, I think, whatyou're talking about, Giovanni.
And, of course, the amazingbraiding sweetgrass is such a
incredible guide for a kind ofway to do that with precision
and with grace. And so manypeople, again, from so many
different ages and, you know,positions love that book because
it leads a way where science isrespected. And in that case,
(24:08):
indigenous practices inparticular are brought into
dialogue and interrelation.
But I do think, I mean, actuallyone of the best things that one
of my colleagues said I was sograteful for after speaking at
the Natural History Museum inSanta Cruz was she said, it's
your talk was so specific. And Ireally appreciated that because
I don't want it to be a blur. Idon't want it to be, oh, yeah.
(24:29):
We're all, you know, live in onebig happy family and should all
get along. I mean, on somelevel, you know, but but I want
it to be specific.
In fact, there's so much to sayabout like. But one of the
things is just that they reallydo they really do exist. It's
not a fantasy. It's not a totalprojection. They really are
(24:53):
doing this unbelievablesymbiotic project of creating
something that when they'reseparate is nothing like what it
looks like and what it does whenthey're together.
That in itself is still soamazing. And I know that, you
know, there's so many other waysto understand symbiosis and so
many examples, but thisparticular one is about, you
(25:14):
know, the transformation thathappens when these organisms
come together and from differentkingdoms. And, again, it's not
anymore thought that it's justfungus and algae. It's
definitely, you know, severalother, you know, whether
bacteria or yeast or otherorganisms that are involved that
help to catalyze this amazingsymbiosis. And it's a mystery.
(25:36):
That's one of the radicalqualities of lichens is that
even the most intenselichenologists don't know how it
works and haven't figured outwhat the communication
mechanisms are that make thistransformation. So, I mean, that
mystery is valuable in itself asa mystery. I mean, it also
(25:57):
invites somebody like me to moveinto that space of not knowing
and to kind of elaborate in itabout how lichens can teach us
how to be different. But it alsoreally is happening. And I think
the fact of lichens is existingin this parallel world to what
some humans are doing and thatthey're doing it so much better
(26:19):
and so much so differently is isreally, really helpful, I think,
in in an otherwise really prettyterrifying time.
Caroline Picard (26:27):
For some reason, that makes me think
about one part of your book alsowhere you describe how maybe
impossible it is to determinehow long lichen live and then
whether or not they die and thenhow we would think of
individuality for lichens. Thatreally stood out to me because
(26:47):
everything about those questionsseems so counter to the way
contemporary societies exist andlive. And so and then I also
thought it was reallyinteresting how I think having
to incorporate that even justlike that as a baseline in a
book will fundamentallychallenge, I think, the way one
(27:11):
writes. Because even in writing,I think there's kind of this
implicit assumption that thereis a death at the end. Like, if
you're gonna if you're gonnaread a biography, there's a
death that will happen.
I'd love to hear you talk moreabout different elements like
that about lichens that reallystand out as, almost like
(27:32):
disruptors to the way we thinkor the way we might be in the
world together.
A. Laurie Palmer (27:38):
Yeah. That's a really great aspect to pull out,
Caroline. I have to try to referto some of the scientists who I
spoke with and also readlichenologists who have explored
the specific question of bothhow do you tell what's an
individual and how do you tellif it's dying or not. One of the
(27:58):
things about lichens lichens isthere's so many exceptions and
so many variations. So really, Ithink that from what I could
tell, the the thing that theyshare is that their habit of
collaboration.
That it's a habit of being thatthey share. And in terms of
their longevity, I think thatsome scientists who study
(28:19):
certain colonies of lichens haveunderstood that because those
colonies do not reproducesexually, but they reproduce
clonally. Lichens have aboutfour different ways of
reproduction, which is awonderful queer dimension of
them that is I think otherpeople have really elaborated
on. But in this these clonalsort of colonies that that are
(28:43):
quite extensive, pieces of thelichen sort of clip off, break
off, and form new lichens. Butin this scientist's perspective,
that meant that the lichen nevernever dies because it's just
pieces of itself continuing togrow and flourish.
Maybe other parts of it, likemaybe its elbow, you know,
shriveled up and died, but therest of its leg and knee is
(29:06):
growing across, you know, inanother place. And I don't know
what if that metaphor quiteworks, but but, basically, that
that's one aspect of thinkingabout it. And there's another
person who has been studyinglichens in Massachusetts in
graveyards, and she also hasbeen theorizing that lichens
never die a natural death. Andas I understand it, part of what
(29:30):
happens with human cells and alot of many other sort of animal
cells is that there's somethinginside ourselves that maybe it's
telomere. I don't that might bean old term, but it just, clicks
off at some point and the cellsdie.
And that I think certainmycologists, I think, are
realizing that maybe some fungidon't have this. I'm really kind
(29:52):
of extending beyond myconfidence here in terms of
expertise, but I know that theseare ways in which lichenologists
are theorizing that they don'tnecessarily die a natural death.
I would like to actually learnmore specifics about this, but
that is connected to thequestion of individual. And,
(30:13):
again, if you think about alichen being formed from fungus
and algae basically choosing toto be together, is that already
can you say that's anindividual? It's already a
plural.
And then if you think about itin a more expansive sense as
that lichen, you know, grows andgrows, what are its edges? It
(30:34):
depends what kind of lichen itis because there are some
lichens that grow from a singlekind of foot, fruticose lichens,
And so that would be more likean individual in in a sense, but
it's already plural. And thereand it's often with many other
parts of itself nearby. Once youget into lichen reproduction,
(30:55):
that opens up this wonderfulnonnormative sexuality dimension
as well, which kind of opens up,like it's not really I don't
know. Is it a marriage when thealgae and and fungus get
together, or is it somethingless heterodox?
You know? Is it something moreabout a a kind of unusual living
(31:18):
arrangement?
Caroline Picard (31:20):
That makes me think too about your other book,
In the Aura of a Whole,Exploring Sites of Material
Exploration and Exploring Sitesof Material Extraction. And just
like in that book, If My MemoryServes, you sort of have
compiled a series of essays thattalk about visiting industrial
sites of extraction and writingessays about the very granular
(31:44):
process of extraction, but alsoyour own, like, subjective
observations and biographicalassociations, I feel like. And
so it seems like there is kindof, a parallel writing practice
or a sort of strategy for alsocapturing maybe this
interdisciplinary approach. Andthis is sort of going back also
(32:06):
a few steps before in ourconversation, but just how that
formal kind of weaving in yourwriting seems to also reflect
the non normative presence orstrategies of being that are in
in the lichens that you'reobserving. But I don't know if
you would agree with that, Iguess.
A. Laurie Palmer (32:27):
I love that way of thinking about it. Yeah.
I'm really interested in mixingtones and voices in in writing
and bringing in mixing tones andvoices in in writing and
bringing in personal andscientific and philosophic, in
the same space. That is a kindof plurality that I think you're
referring to, and I I reallyappreciate that comment. I may
(32:47):
have done even more of that inin the aura of a whole because
the scale of that project well,just even literally, I was
looking at these massive scalesites, and it just it's sort of
interesting to me to move fromthat project to this one, which
is about such small scale kindof relations.
And when we go on lichen walks,it's always such a joke because
we move about, you know, sixfeet in an hour and a half. And
(33:11):
and and in the aura of a hole, Iwas traveling all over the
country and, unfortunately,using a lot of gas. But I do
think that writing for me is, ina way, an art practice. And I I
mean, it is an art practice, Iguess, I would say. It I have to
admit that I I really likewords, and I probably in the way
that real writers like wordstoo.
(33:32):
But I'm interested in how thatmix of kind of approaches and
voices is really close to artpractices that are
interdisciplinary and attemptingto, going back to another part
of our conversation, like yousaid, bring together many
different kinds of ideas intothe same space and try to find
the connections and make senseof our lives that way.
Giovanni Aloi (33:55):
That's a really important point too, Laurie,
about writing as a legitimateform of art that I hope more and
more people will warm up to inthe next few years. There is
still a strange divide I findbetween artists and and writers,
and, like, I think writing isvery much misunderstood
oftentimes in terms of creativeprocess. That's at least what I
(34:19):
encounter when I talk to mystudents that are cliches and
stereotypes that somehow stickparticularly well to the idea of
the artist as not being a writeror not using writing as as a
medium that I think are stillvery inconvenient because
they're limiting. And there'ssomething about limitations of
thinking as well as your desireto blur boundaries and and break
(34:45):
down hierarchies that I findparticularly interesting in the
context of also what I've beenresearching for a long time,
which is this hierarchization ofgenres in art, the subjects that
used to be popular, anddesirable during the seventeenth
and eighteenth centuries. So thecanon, the hierarchization that
sees at the top history,mythology, religion, moving down
(35:08):
all the way to, animals, plants,landscape.
It makes me think, well, lichensare not even there. Right? It's
just completely overlooked tothe point of irrelevance
because, like you said andexplained very well, I think
that the issue is withsubjectivity. You know, in
subjectivity, we are hardwiredto relate to other subjects or
objects. And and once that powerrelation is jeopardized or
(35:31):
become too volatile, we kindalose interest.
Especially, I think, lichens inthe context of your exploration
in the book, sort of shortcircuit capitalism in a sense
that they become difficult toharvest, if not impossible,
difficult to trade, if notimpossible. And all of these
contingencies have kinda made, Ithink, now, like, and so
(35:55):
interesting as you foregroundthem. There's something I'm
interested in, and I think weprobably are also nearing the
end of our podcast time wise.But I wanted to hear a little
bit perhaps about the aestheticsbecause we've started talking
about looking. And one of thethings that strikes me about
lichens is how enticing theyare.
You know, it's their the colors,the textures, the morphologies,
(36:18):
and they always seems to beunique. We've been talking about
them as non individuals, butthey're also impossible to
repeat, you know, the way theyform on a specific rock or a
stone. So I was kinda thinkingabout how it's so easy for us to
visualize a geranium, forinstance, and even, like, a
specific species or a variety ofgeranium, but how it becomes
(36:41):
impossible to visualize for allof us a lichen that is very
similar, like, in our heads towhatever we're thinking. And and
yet that lichen is anindividual, but it's so
individual that it's also in inits in its kind of plurality is
also super individual. I'mthinking about aesthetic
questions of representation andand how to kinda negotiate
(37:02):
those.
A. Laurie Palmer (37:03):
That's all very, very interesting. I think
you just that's a lot that youpacked into that. Just but
ending up with aesthetics, I Imean, just the thing it's making
me think of is how people justfall in love with the lichens as
soon as they are introduced. Forinstance, going on these walks,
some people come because they'rereally into it, and others have
(37:25):
never known what a lichen was.And you give them the lens, and
the lens allows them to justdive into a world.
I don't know how that reallyrelates to what you're saying
about aesthetics andindividuals, but I feel like
it's a potential way to loseyourself as a human and to enter
(37:47):
into this parallel world whereyou're captured by the
aesthetics of these of thesethings. And what is it that's so
aesthetic about them? I think ina very rough way, there's
there's some sort of shape andorder when you look closely. And
I'm talking mostly about thesemicro lichens, like crustose
(38:07):
lichens that you don'tnecessarily notice until you
have the lens or that you thatlook like a, you know, scab of
paint or something, and then yourealize it's this whole amazing
world. I think that, you know,my response to thinking about
the aesthetics is mostly howcompelling it is in spite of
people.
I don't know how to explain thatreally. Like when people make
(38:31):
paintings of lichens or drawingsand collate it's it's usually
fields. It's not a thing. Andthat's a really, really
important point, actually reallyinteresting, which is back to,
again, collectivity and and someof the politics that are, from
my perspective, deeply embeddedin this project and this book
(38:52):
that, you know, are informing itin terms of, belief in how much
we need each other and and howmuch more can happen in terms of
more people thriving when werecognize that. And also not
just each other, but obviouslythe the larger world.
Some of the nonindividualaspects of lichens is also that
(39:12):
they are so permeable to theirenvironment. They are
poikilohydric, which means theycan't regulate their moisture
content. So whatever moisture'sin the in the environment comes
right into them, which they canuse. And if if there's no
moisture, they dry up and godormant. I mean, again,
depending on what kind oflichens they are, how much they
need to metabolize, but it's areally interesting, intense
(39:36):
vulnerability to theenvironment.
But you could also think of itas just, you know, engagement
with it and handshaking with it.That as humans, we too are
deeply vulnerable and engagedwith our environment, but we
build all these structures tomake us imagine we're not.
Caroline Picard (39:53):
One of the things that it makes me think
about in relation to is thisidea of place. And I like, I
feel like place is very presentin your book also. Like, the
presence of Northern Californiaand Northern California at this
moment, like, whether it'sresearchers that are trying to
(40:14):
study photosynthesis to discoverways that we can no longer sleep
or, you know, essentially, tofigure out ways that we might be
able to adapt photosynthesis sothat humans wouldn't have to
sleep so we could be moreproductive. But then at the same
time, there's this presence of,like, wildfires, and then
there's this presence of lichen,which is outside. So I thought
that was also very powerful tome, like, the placeness of
(40:39):
Northern California in the book,basically.
It's like the idea of themuseum. The museum creates a
framework and the place isinside and the artwork is, like,
taken from outside and put inthis like controlled environment
versus like what you're talkingabout. There is a kind of real
porousness between inside andoutside. The lichen is
(41:02):
everywhere, it's outside. And soI think in some ways also,
there's no pretense that thenatural environment isn't
present all the time, I guess,is what I'm like trying to
circle around, which I think isreally interesting as an
aesthetic position.
A. Laurie Palmer (41:19):
I wrote the book during the huge part of it
during the pandemic when I washeld up inside, which is sort of
a contradiction. You know? Butinside in Northern California,
for sure, and I think since Imoved here seven, eight years
ago, it's certainly hugely,affected me, my poikilohydrism
(41:40):
not being able to keep, youknow, its influences out. I
mean, part of NorthernCalifornia is its technological,
you know, ambitions, and that'spart of, I think, part of what
you're referring to with thestudies in photosynthesis. And
sometimes I start talking aboutlichens with trying to identify
five of the most radicalqualities.
But I didn't do that this timebecause there's there's really
(42:01):
so many more. But one of themthat we haven't really gone on
about is is slowness. And what Ithink looking at lichens can do
I mean, I mentioned, you know,going on a walk and only moving
a few feet in an hour and a halfand being absorbed by these
worlds, but really trying tothink about time in a in a
(42:21):
really different, lessaccelerated, less sped up, more
of a body time no matter whosebody it is, trying to pay
respect to and recognize thatour materiality as humans and
the the ways that other otherbeings maybe are more adapted to
capable of.
Caroline Picard (42:40):
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's
such an exciting book. I know Ikeep saying that, but I feel
like receiving it in the mailand seeing it and sort of
holding it as a printed boundcopy was such a thrill,
especially after all of theconversations that we've been
having, and such a pleasure tobe able to talk to you about it.
A. Laurie Palmer (42:59):
Thank you. It for for inviting me to to make
it. I mean, that was amazing.That was amazing. And it it
really you know, in spite ofhaving been thinking about
lichens for a long time and, youknow, trying to videotape them
for years and years and yearsgrowing, which is an ongoing
project, it's a really, reallyinteresting practice.
(43:20):
But writing the book just tookme into territory I didn't
expect or anticipate. And Ireally appreciate how that kind
of invitation in a way can leadone somewhere. And I am really,
really grateful for that, bothof you and also to University of
Minnesota Press.
Giovanni Aloi (43:37):
Thank you, Lori. It's Been really great working
with you and we're very proud ofyour book.
Projects like yours to me can become
blueprints and models that showus how we can recover different
knowledges.
Caroline Picard (00:18):
There is no pretense that the natural
environment isn't present allthe time.
A. Laurie Palmer (00:24):
They really are doing this unbelievable
symbiotic project of creatingsomething that when they're
separate is nothing like what itlooks like and what it does when
they're together.
Giovanni Aloi (00:42):
Welcome to a new Art After Nature podcast. My
name is Giovanni Aloy. I am theco editor of the series with my
colleague Caroline Piccard. Theseries publishes books on nature
and the Anthropocene. At a timeof unprecedented ecological
crisis and cultural change, ArtAfter Nature explores the
(01:03):
epistemological questions thatemerge from the expanding
environmental consciousness ofthe humanities.
Authors featured in this seriesengaged with the recent
ontological turn appendinganthropocentrism in order to
grapple with the dark ecologicalfluidity of nature cultures. The
anthropogenic lenses of inquiryemphasize an ethical focus for
(01:25):
grounding the more than humanpolitics of our era.
Caroline Picard (01:29):
I'm Caroline Piccard. I'm the coeditor with,
Giovanni Loy. We're all herewith a Lori Palmer on behalf of
the fourth book in our series,The Lycan Museum. It's really
exciting to be here, obviously,and let me just say a little bit
about this book. Serving as botha guide and companion
(01:51):
publication to the same name,the Lichen Museum explores how
the physiologicalcharacteristics of lichens
provide a valuable template forreimagining human relations in
an age of ecological and socialprecarity.
Channeling between the personal,the scientific, the
philosophical, and the poetic, aLori Palmer employs a cross
(02:13):
disciplinary framework thatartfully mirrors the collective
relations of lichens, imploringus to envision alternative ways
of living based oninterdependence rather than
individualism and competition.Lichens are composite organisms
made of fungus and algae orcyanobacteria thriving in a
mutually beneficialrelationship. The lichen museum
(02:35):
looks to these complex organismsremarkable for their symbiosis,
diversity, longevity, andadaptability, as models for
relations rooted incollaboration and non
hierarchical structures. Intheir resistance to fast paced
growth and commodification,lichens also offer possibilities
for humans to reconfigure theirrelationship to time and
(02:56):
attention outside theaccelerated pace of capitalist
accumulation. Bringing togethera diverse set of voices,
including personal encounterswith lichenologists and lichens
themselves, Palmer both imaginesand embodies a radical new
approach to humaninterconnection.
Using this tiny organism as anemblem through which to navigate
(03:17):
environmental and socialconcerns, this book narrows the
gap between the human andnatural worlds, emphasizing
mutual dependence as a necessarymeans of survival and
prosperity. A Lori Palmer is anartist and professor at the
University of California, SantaCruz, and we are so happy to be
here with you. Maybe just tokick things off, I thought it
(03:40):
would be really exciting to hearabout how this book came to be
and what made you start thinkingabout the lichen museum.
A. Laurie Palmer (03:51):
Laurie? Thank you, Caroline and Giovanni and
Maggie for this talk and alsofor University of Minnesota to
publish this book. Yeah. I'm I'mvery grateful to all of you to
be here. Like any long termproject, I think this one is a
convergence of a lot ofdifferent desires and
experiences over a long periodof time.
(04:12):
I've think I've been interestedlike a lot of people in lichens
for most of my conscious life,maybe even pre conscious, like
being outside in the woods andexploring. I also was interested
when I went on a I went on anartist residency in the Arctic,
the Arctic Circle residency, andwas aware that the one thing
(04:36):
growing in that environment waslichens. There are some little
tiny trees that grow about sixinches tall, but basically
that's it. And so I've I'vefound myself really, really
fascinated by looking down inthis amazing icy snowy landscape
and looking for these thingsthat had really, really long
temporalities. So partly I thinkI I was alerted to look for them
(05:00):
because going to the Arctic in,I think it was that was in 2010,
I was already thinking about howdo we think beyond our own
lifetimes?
How do we think outside of ourlimited, you know, human scope?
And and I think a lot of peoplegoing on these trips to cold
places where the the glacierswere melting and all that were
(05:23):
thinking along these lines. Andit seems like lichens provided
this sort of in between time tothink with, so they weren't as
ancient as as long geologicalepics and eras that are really
mind boggling, but they were inthese middle ranges of time
between well, some lichens areare shorter term, but many of
them are hundreds of years, somethousands, even speculatively,
(05:47):
some ten thousand if they areliving in Antarctica inside the
ice. So so I was reallyinterested that way. And then it
started to just snowball allthese different ways that
brought me back to learning moreabout the symbiosis, which I
know is sort of a poster childfor many other ideas about
(06:09):
symbiosis, but the lichens arekind of the first in many ways
to open that up.
And, I started to just see inthem so many possibilities. And
then I remembered that I hadmade lichen ink in 1990, and I
still had it hanging around. Andso there were all these threads
that started to tie together.
Caroline Picard (06:29):
Do you feel like you're like, I guess I'm
interested in how yourrelationship to Lycan, how that
might have changed your approachto your own art practice if it
did, thinking about modes ofpresentation, your relationship
to institutional space. But thenalso something that you talk
about quite a lot in the book isjust kind of like the act of
(06:51):
seeing or what it means to bepresent in relation to seeing.
And all of those things seemlike they necessarily affect the
way you might engage your ownwork as an artist making. That's
why I was interested in I don'tknow. Just hearing you talk a
little bit about thatdevelopment.
A. Laurie Palmer (07:11):
Yeah. Those are really, really central
questions, Caroline. I think theidea of the Leica Museum as a
art project in terms of a frameto see the all the world as a
museum that's sort of turnedinside out, I think is very much
about having had a non objectbased art practice most of my
(07:32):
life. I and, I started as aprintmaker, but then got into
sculpture and increasinglysculptures that were time based
and destroyed themselves orevaporated or whatever. But
thinking about the larger worldof living and that, certainly
played into the work I didcollaboratively with the group
for twenty years, actually,where we were really focused on
(07:57):
experiential space in many ways.
I mean, I never really madethose connections before until
you asked this question exactly,but I think I was really
interested in looking away fromthe established institutions,
not to dismiss them altogether,but to play with turning them
upside down or inside out. And,actually, Caroline, you offered
(08:17):
this amazing opportunity inChicago in 2015 to stage the
Leica Museum as an institutioninside another institution. And
what we did for that in thegallery you ran in Chicago was
to show some some video, butalso to direct people outside to
(08:37):
the sidewalk where people werepretty quickly down on our hands
and knees with our nose to thesidewalk in the middle of, you
know, the West Side Of Chicago.And so there was this way of
just thinking of museum as not aplace that things have to be
stilled and killed andpreserved, but instead, a museum
(09:01):
as the space of living and thespace of experiencing and the
space of relating. I did travelto, visit several lichenologists
before I was thinking about thisbook, but just as part of
thinking about lichens andinterviewing them.
And in one herbarium in The UK,I think it was in sorry. It was
in Northern Ireland. Thiswonderful paleontologist who is
(09:23):
also a lichenologist, you know,led me through these drawers of
desiccated little bits ofthings. And it was really hard
to imagine how they could embodywhat lichens are. And instead, I
just was thinking really wherethe archive should be is out in
the world, and that's where Iwanna direct people.
So in many ways, this book iskind of like a a companion to
(09:46):
direct you outside and to to belooking. And that gets back to
your other question about theproblem of seeing, really, which
is historically and thecertainly the traditions that I
grew up in as a white person inWestern culture, but much bigger
than that is a uneven balance ofpower between the human who's,
(10:07):
who's looking, turning whatthey're looking at into an
object. So it's a subject objectrelation. And it's really hard
to imagine getting outside ofthat, but I I'm aware of it as a
imbalanced structure of powerthat is deeply connected to
natural history practices evenas natural history is wonderful
(10:28):
as a way to get people to lookat the world and be in the world
and to be surprised more thananything. But it's still how do
we get outside of that powerrelation so that our relations
with what we are communing withare not happening in this sort
of hierarchical ladder of value.
(10:49):
And so I think there's so muchthat is being written and
discussed these days that's veryrevelatory and exciting that
tries to make horizontal ourrelations, you know, in the more
than human world that I knowyour series has everything to do
with. So that those structuresof power, those uneven
(11:09):
structures of power are notbeing reinforced every time
we're an observer. And so Itried to think about looking at
lichens because they're soalready horizontal most of the
time, at least in Logan Squarewhen we were on our knees in the
sidewalk, but also becausethey're so small and they seem
to be, in many ways, in thosehistorical ladders of of value
(11:32):
from the Greeks on in Westernculture at the very bottom. And
so what would it mean to communewith with these beings that are
already sort of devalued in inmany ways, and to imagine them
as subjects at the same time, oreven to imagine ourselves as
(11:53):
objects and objects. So justshifting the imbalance of
subject to object.
And I don't, you know, pretendthat it's something you can just
do quickly, but I think it'sreally interesting as an
experiment. And I see thepremise of this book in many
ways and the project of theLeica Museum as an experiment in
(12:13):
thinking and doing and seeingdifferently. I just wanna say
also that I've had somewonderful lichen walks lately
since the book came out, whichhave been really fabulous. And
one of them this last weekendwas in Santa Cruz at the new
Institute for the Arts andSciences that is currently
(12:34):
hosting a series calledVisualizing Abolition that
they've been working on forseveral years, actually. And so
they invited me to do anabolitionist Lycan walk.
And it made so much sense to mebecause they had perceived,
they'd recognized within thebook and its content that this
is what basically, you know,it's trying to do. Abolition as
(12:56):
they understand it in thisreally broad term and as I do
also isn't just about takingdown prisons. It's about
undermining and taking down allof those structures that are
oppressive to, especially,certain peoples over others and
to rebuilding other ways of ofseeing and doing and being in
relation. So I was so gratefulfor that invitation, and it was
(13:20):
amazing. There were 50 peoplewho came to this walk.
I've never given a walk with somany people, and I didn't have
enough lenses, which was reallya shame. But part of the thing
about Likensit is maybe this isone of the things that I should
have started by answering yourquestion about how did I get
there. Is there collectivity? Imean, as a person who's very
(13:40):
focused on the potential and thenecessity of shared beingness,
rather than competitiveindividualism, I really love the
idea that people share thelenses. So maybe that was a good
a good part of the whole walktoo.
Giovanni Aloi (13:57):
Laurie, you say so interesting. And this this
new relationship between theinside and the outside and also
kind of upturning the powerstructures, The power of the
gaze inside and outside made methink of a clip that I play for
my students in plants and artclass at the School of the Arts
Institute of Chicago, which isfrom the New York Botanic Garden
(14:19):
archive. And in the clip, thedirector of the botanical garden
in New York shows differentspecimens. And at some point,
she unfolds a tiny little paperparcel. And inside it, there's a
tiny fragment of a lichen thatwas collected by Darwin.
And And at that point, mystudents always laugh because
there is this, like, almostceremonious unfolding of this
(14:42):
piece of paper, and she's in amassive archive filled with so
many plants. But this one tinyfragment of a lichen that's
unrecognizable is the thing thatshe wants to show. Part of that
laughing, I I always questionwhat what's funny about this?
After a while, we get to thepoint that the lichen is the
most unlikely organism for thearchive. It just doesn't it
(15:04):
seems wrong for it to be therebecause it's perceived as
something that is alwaysattached to something else.
And once you remove it, it canonly really come off as a
fragment. And once it's afragment, it no longer is
remotely what it was meant tobe. While a dried plant might
look brown and might lookshriveled, it still sort of
retains some sort of plantnessthat makes sense. That lichen
(15:27):
seemed to just become afetishized relic of some kind.
You know, the only thing thatreally seemed to matter is that
it was collected by Darwin.
Otherwise, it's just a littlespike of vegetal matter or, like
actually, not just vegetalmatter, but multi organism
matter. And it kind of made methink about what you're saying,
you know, the idea of the gazeand opticality and and what is
(15:49):
the point of seeing and wheredifferent registers of
visibility perhaps are more aptto what we can see and what we
should see today. So in thecontext of seeing, I was
interested since you throughoutthe book, you talk about your
collaborations and experienceswith scientists. I was curious
(16:09):
to hear more about yourexperiences in sort of aligning
your gaze with their gaze, andif you could tell us a little
bit about that experience.
A. Laurie Palmer (16:19):
Yeah. That's a that's a really wonderful
anecdote and entry point,Giovanni. I did have a similar
thing happen in this, herbariumin, Northern Ireland. But what
made the connection for theperson who was unwrapping these
little bits of things were thestories. You know?
Who it was who collected thembecause he happened to know if
(16:41):
not know them personally, thenhe knew of them through like and
lore. And so the stories werebeing unwrapped. It really had
very little to do with thisfluffy bit of stuff or dusty bit
of stuff. And so that wasactually one connection, you
know, that they were throughtelling the stories, talking
about being outside collectingor about the biography of these
(17:05):
people and their relations in a,you know, broader sense to other
parts of the world. So it openedup a lot even as the thing
itself was was just an excusekind of at that point.
I did have a very specificagenda when I was I learned so
much, and I was so surprised andjust amazed by whom I got to
speak to when I was doing thisresearch and tracking down
(17:28):
people. The main agenda that Ihad to make sure to ask each of
them was about how they woulddescribe the relation between
the fungus and the algae.Because in my reading about how
it was described, it was alwaysa power relation. It was always
that the fungus was the masterand the algae were the slaves.
(17:49):
And there were very many otherdescriptors, like the fungus
were vampires sucking the lifeout of the algae or the fungus
had the algae in sexual slaveryof some sort or I mean, it was
like a lot of human fantasiesprojected onto these things,
which, of course, I'm doing acertain amount of projection
myself in writing this book, buthopefully to undo those
(18:12):
particular understandings as ifthey were naturalized or common
sense kinds of relationships.
And so I was asking thelichenologist to consider the
algae giving themselves intothis relation, not being taken
or captured or imprisoned. Andit made for really interesting
conversations. And I didn't havean automatic, I don't wanna talk
(18:33):
to you. It was more like, let'stalk, but, you know, I don't see
it that way. Or even actually,maybe the most generous was,
well, that's a narrative.
You know? And I said, well, it'salso a narrative to say that it
that it's this imbalance powerrelation, and then they would
have to admit that. You know?But I have to say, I I gave a
talk at the also just in thepast couple of months at the
(18:56):
Santa Cruz Natural HistoryMuseum, and there was a
lichenologist in the audiencethere. And he insisted that
those imbalanced power relationsare not how US Lichenologists
understand it now, which I foundto be really hopeful and
interesting.
Although I have to say it's notexactly been my experience
talking to, like, an allergistin The US, but I really
(19:18):
respected that he said that andthat he saw that change coming.
I also think that thatparticular person was not
particularly amenable to thekinds of ways that I was talking
about lichens. That too, thecrowd was huge. It was really it
was standing room only at theNatural History Museum. It was
(19:39):
so wonderful, and people werevery, very they had wonderful
questions.
But this one person who was sortof in the field, I really hoped
to talk to him, but he kind ofscurried away. And I'm trying to
reach out because it's not thatI feel like we have to agree,
but I am very interested in how,as an artist, you know, these
(20:02):
ideas can touch, reach, youknow, have relations with many
different kinds of otherprofessions and perspectives.
And it's part of what I wantedI've always wanted to do as an
artist is not remain within a acertain bubble of audience, but
to be engaged with ideas andpractices that could reach a lot
(20:23):
of people. And I have to saythis is probably the most multi
tiered project that has donethis because I'm also getting
emails from people who are, youknow, since the book has come
out, who are like an enthusiast,like an artist saying they wanna
connect. And it's really great.
They're not turned away by theconceptual dimension of the book
(20:45):
so far, it seems, most of them,and are instead just glad to
meet another enthusiast. And soit's really and also the kids.
The kids that come on thesewalks are are some of the most
acute discoverers of of where tosee on the tree or the sidewalk.
Giovanni Aloi (21:02):
Yeah. There is also, I think, a dimension in
this context, Laurie, is alsothe idea that for a while, I
always feel a little bituncomfortable when I call out
how science, as in a way,impoverished our world because
I'm afraid that sometimes peoplejump to the conclusion that it's
some kind of discounting thevalidity of science, but it's
(21:23):
it's more complicated than that.You know? I think there's a lot
of work that we need to do inthe West to appreciate how
science has created an enormousamount of knowledge. And at the
same time, as it is well known,it has purged all other
knowledges aside and anddiscounted their value.
(21:43):
And I think projects like yoursto me can become blueprints and
models that show us how we canrecover different knowledges and
rearrange certain voices. But Ithink sometimes in my
experience, some specialists intheir field feel very protective
of the conversations, theterminologies, and and the
trajectories of narratives thatare allowed or not allowed. And,
(22:06):
it would probably take time,right, to, break the mold. There
is also a a level of feelinguncomfortable, I think, in that
arena that is a productive kindof feeling uncomfortable, but
it's perhaps not yet foreverybody. It takes work.
So you were talking about timeand a certain different
perception of time itself.Sometimes I feel that we're all
on different time frames when itcomes to where we are at with
(22:29):
our relationship, with ourdisciplines, and already we
might or might not be to pulldown the walls that keep us in
that professional space.
A. Laurie Palmer (22:38):
Yeah. I mean, one of the things about making
this book, which sort of cameout of the longer project, was
wanting to have multiple voicesfrom different disciplines
threading through it andcarrying some of the
conversation in the book itself.I really interested in in
writing, but I'm also reallyinterested in in dialogue and
(22:59):
having these cross disciplinaryconversations. And the grad
program that I've been directingand now at UC Santa Cruz
environmental art and socialpractice, it's all about trying
to mix these differentdiscourses and or to find where
they are useful together. I alsoam really aware that there's a
(23:20):
kind of fear of softening of allall of our, intellectual
capacities if we do too muchmixing.
And I think that that'ssomething that, you know, I am
always in terror of also,especially living in California.
You know? Northern California.Not to diss Northern California.
It's wonderful.
Here I am in Mendocino in acabin in the woods. But it's so
(23:43):
it's a fine line, I think, whatyou're talking about, Giovanni.
And, of course, the amazingbraiding sweetgrass is such a
incredible guide for a kind ofway to do that with precision
and with grace. And so manypeople, again, from so many
different ages and, you know,positions love that book because
it leads a way where science isrespected. And in that case,
(24:08):
indigenous practices inparticular are brought into
dialogue and interrelation.
But I do think, I mean, actuallyone of the best things that one
of my colleagues said I was sograteful for after speaking at
the Natural History Museum inSanta Cruz was she said, it's
your talk was so specific. And Ireally appreciated that because
I don't want it to be a blur. Idon't want it to be, oh, yeah.
(24:29):
We're all, you know, live in onebig happy family and should all
get along. I mean, on somelevel, you know, but but I want
it to be specific.
In fact, there's so much to sayabout like. But one of the
things is just that they reallydo they really do exist. It's
not a fantasy. It's not a totalprojection. They really are
(24:53):
doing this unbelievablesymbiotic project of creating
something that when they'reseparate is nothing like what it
looks like and what it does whenthey're together.
That in itself is still soamazing. And I know that, you
know, there's so many other waysto understand symbiosis and so
many examples, but thisparticular one is about, you
(25:14):
know, the transformation thathappens when these organisms
come together and from differentkingdoms. And, again, it's not
anymore thought that it's justfungus and algae. It's
definitely, you know, severalother, you know, whether
bacteria or yeast or otherorganisms that are involved that
help to catalyze this amazingsymbiosis. And it's a mystery.
(25:36):
That's one of the radicalqualities of lichens is that
even the most intenselichenologists don't know how it
works and haven't figured outwhat the communication
mechanisms are that make thistransformation. So, I mean, that
mystery is valuable in itself asa mystery. I mean, it also
(25:57):
invites somebody like me to moveinto that space of not knowing
and to kind of elaborate in itabout how lichens can teach us
how to be different. But it alsoreally is happening. And I think
the fact of lichens is existingin this parallel world to what
some humans are doing and thatthey're doing it so much better
(26:19):
and so much so differently is isreally, really helpful, I think,
in in an otherwise really prettyterrifying time.
Caroline Picard (26:27):
For some reason, that makes me think
about one part of your book alsowhere you describe how maybe
impossible it is to determinehow long lichen live and then
whether or not they die and thenhow we would think of
individuality for lichens. Thatreally stood out to me because
(26:47):
everything about those questionsseems so counter to the way
contemporary societies exist andlive. And so and then I also
thought it was reallyinteresting how I think having
to incorporate that even justlike that as a baseline in a
book will fundamentallychallenge, I think, the way one
(27:11):
writes. Because even in writing,I think there's kind of this
implicit assumption that thereis a death at the end. Like, if
you're gonna if you're gonnaread a biography, there's a
death that will happen.
I'd love to hear you talk moreabout different elements like
that about lichens that reallystand out as, almost like
(27:32):
disruptors to the way we thinkor the way we might be in the
world together.
A. Laurie Palmer (27:38):
Yeah. That's a really great aspect to pull out,
Caroline. I have to try to referto some of the scientists who I
spoke with and also readlichenologists who have explored
the specific question of bothhow do you tell what's an
individual and how do you tellif it's dying or not. One of the
(27:58):
things about lichens lichens isthere's so many exceptions and
so many variations. So really, Ithink that from what I could
tell, the the thing that theyshare is that their habit of
collaboration.
That it's a habit of being thatthey share. And in terms of
their longevity, I think thatsome scientists who study
(28:19):
certain colonies of lichens haveunderstood that because those
colonies do not reproducesexually, but they reproduce
clonally. Lichens have aboutfour different ways of
reproduction, which is awonderful queer dimension of
them that is I think otherpeople have really elaborated
on. But in this these clonalsort of colonies that that are
(28:43):
quite extensive, pieces of thelichen sort of clip off, break
off, and form new lichens. Butin this scientist's perspective,
that meant that the lichen nevernever dies because it's just
pieces of itself continuing togrow and flourish.
Maybe other parts of it, likemaybe its elbow, you know,
shriveled up and died, but therest of its leg and knee is
(29:06):
growing across, you know, inanother place. And I don't know
what if that metaphor quiteworks, but but, basically, that
that's one aspect of thinkingabout it. And there's another
person who has been studyinglichens in Massachusetts in
graveyards, and she also hasbeen theorizing that lichens
never die a natural death. Andas I understand it, part of what
(29:30):
happens with human cells and alot of many other sort of animal
cells is that there's somethinginside ourselves that maybe it's
telomere. I don't that might bean old term, but it just, clicks
off at some point and the cellsdie.
And that I think certainmycologists, I think, are
realizing that maybe some fungidon't have this. I'm really kind
(29:52):
of extending beyond myconfidence here in terms of
expertise, but I know that theseare ways in which lichenologists
are theorizing that they don'tnecessarily die a natural death.
I would like to actually learnmore specifics about this, but
that is connected to thequestion of individual. And,
(30:13):
again, if you think about alichen being formed from fungus
and algae basically choosing toto be together, is that already
can you say that's anindividual? It's already a
plural.
And then if you think about itin a more expansive sense as
that lichen, you know, grows andgrows, what are its edges? It
(30:34):
depends what kind of lichen itis because there are some
lichens that grow from a singlekind of foot, fruticose lichens,
And so that would be more likean individual in in a sense, but
it's already plural. And thereand it's often with many other
parts of itself nearby. Once youget into lichen reproduction,
(30:55):
that opens up this wonderfulnonnormative sexuality dimension
as well, which kind of opens up,like it's not really I don't
know. Is it a marriage when thealgae and and fungus get
together, or is it somethingless heterodox?
You know? Is it something moreabout a a kind of unusual living
(31:18):
arrangement?
Caroline Picard (31:20):
That makes me think too about your other book,
In the Aura of a Whole,Exploring Sites of Material
Exploration and Exploring Sitesof Material Extraction. And just
like in that book, If My MemoryServes, you sort of have
compiled a series of essays thattalk about visiting industrial
sites of extraction and writingessays about the very granular
(31:44):
process of extraction, but alsoyour own, like, subjective
observations and biographicalassociations, I feel like. And
so it seems like there is kindof, a parallel writing practice
or a sort of strategy for alsocapturing maybe this
interdisciplinary approach. Andthis is sort of going back also
(32:06):
a few steps before in ourconversation, but just how that
formal kind of weaving in yourwriting seems to also reflect
the non normative presence orstrategies of being that are in
in the lichens that you'reobserving. But I don't know if
you would agree with that, Iguess.
A. Laurie Palmer (32:27):
I love that way of thinking about it. Yeah.
I'm really interested in mixingtones and voices in in writing
and bringing in mixing tones andvoices in in writing and
bringing in personal andscientific and philosophic, in
the same space. That is a kindof plurality that I think you're
referring to, and I I reallyappreciate that comment. I may
(32:47):
have done even more of that inin the aura of a whole because
the scale of that project well,just even literally, I was
looking at these massive scalesites, and it just it's sort of
interesting to me to move fromthat project to this one, which
is about such small scale kindof relations.
And when we go on lichen walks,it's always such a joke because
we move about, you know, sixfeet in an hour and a half. And
(33:11):
and and in the aura of a hole, Iwas traveling all over the
country and, unfortunately,using a lot of gas. But I do
think that writing for me is, ina way, an art practice. And I I
mean, it is an art practice, Iguess, I would say. It I have to
admit that I I really likewords, and I probably in the way
that real writers like wordstoo.
(33:32):
But I'm interested in how thatmix of kind of approaches and
voices is really close to artpractices that are
interdisciplinary and attemptingto, going back to another part
of our conversation, like yousaid, bring together many
different kinds of ideas intothe same space and try to find
the connections and make senseof our lives that way.
Giovanni Aloi (33:55):
That's a really important point too, Laurie,
about writing as a legitimateform of art that I hope more and
more people will warm up to inthe next few years. There is
still a strange divide I findbetween artists and and writers,
and, like, I think writing isvery much misunderstood
oftentimes in terms of creativeprocess. That's at least what I
(34:19):
encounter when I talk to mystudents that are cliches and
stereotypes that somehow stickparticularly well to the idea of
the artist as not being a writeror not using writing as as a
medium that I think are stillvery inconvenient because
they're limiting. And there'ssomething about limitations of
thinking as well as your desireto blur boundaries and and break
(34:45):
down hierarchies that I findparticularly interesting in the
context of also what I've beenresearching for a long time,
which is this hierarchization ofgenres in art, the subjects that
used to be popular, anddesirable during the seventeenth
and eighteenth centuries. So thecanon, the hierarchization that
sees at the top history,mythology, religion, moving down
(35:08):
all the way to, animals, plants,landscape.
It makes me think, well, lichensare not even there. Right? It's
just completely overlooked tothe point of irrelevance
because, like you said andexplained very well, I think
that the issue is withsubjectivity. You know, in
subjectivity, we are hardwiredto relate to other subjects or
objects. And and once that powerrelation is jeopardized or
(35:31):
become too volatile, we kindalose interest.
Especially, I think, lichens inthe context of your exploration
in the book, sort of shortcircuit capitalism in a sense
that they become difficult toharvest, if not impossible,
difficult to trade, if notimpossible. And all of these
contingencies have kinda made, Ithink, now, like, and so
(35:55):
interesting as you foregroundthem. There's something I'm
interested in, and I think weprobably are also nearing the
end of our podcast time wise.But I wanted to hear a little
bit perhaps about the aestheticsbecause we've started talking
about looking. And one of thethings that strikes me about
lichens is how enticing theyare.
You know, it's their the colors,the textures, the morphologies,
(36:18):
and they always seems to beunique. We've been talking about
them as non individuals, butthey're also impossible to
repeat, you know, the way theyform on a specific rock or a
stone. So I was kinda thinkingabout how it's so easy for us to
visualize a geranium, forinstance, and even, like, a
specific species or a variety ofgeranium, but how it becomes
(36:41):
impossible to visualize for allof us a lichen that is very
similar, like, in our heads towhatever we're thinking. And and
yet that lichen is anindividual, but it's so
individual that it's also in inits in its kind of plurality is
also super individual. I'mthinking about aesthetic
questions of representation andand how to kinda negotiate
(37:02):
those.
A. Laurie Palmer (37:03):
That's all very, very interesting. I think
you just that's a lot that youpacked into that. Just but
ending up with aesthetics, I Imean, just the thing it's making
me think of is how people justfall in love with the lichens as
soon as they are introduced. Forinstance, going on these walks,
some people come because they'rereally into it, and others have
(37:25):
never known what a lichen was.And you give them the lens, and
the lens allows them to justdive into a world.
I don't know how that reallyrelates to what you're saying
about aesthetics andindividuals, but I feel like
it's a potential way to loseyourself as a human and to enter
(37:47):
into this parallel world whereyou're captured by the
aesthetics of these of thesethings. And what is it that's so
aesthetic about them? I think ina very rough way, there's
there's some sort of shape andorder when you look closely. And
I'm talking mostly about thesemicro lichens, like crustose
(38:07):
lichens that you don'tnecessarily notice until you
have the lens or that you thatlook like a, you know, scab of
paint or something, and then yourealize it's this whole amazing
world. I think that, you know,my response to thinking about
the aesthetics is mostly howcompelling it is in spite of
people.
I don't know how to explain thatreally. Like when people make
(38:31):
paintings of lichens or drawingsand collate it's it's usually
fields. It's not a thing. Andthat's a really, really
important point, actually reallyinteresting, which is back to,
again, collectivity and and someof the politics that are, from
my perspective, deeply embeddedin this project and this book
(38:52):
that, you know, are informing itin terms of, belief in how much
we need each other and and howmuch more can happen in terms of
more people thriving when werecognize that. And also not
just each other, but obviouslythe the larger world.
Some of the nonindividualaspects of lichens is also that
(39:12):
they are so permeable to theirenvironment. They are
poikilohydric, which means theycan't regulate their moisture
content. So whatever moisture'sin the in the environment comes
right into them, which they canuse. And if if there's no
moisture, they dry up and godormant. I mean, again,
depending on what kind oflichens they are, how much they
need to metabolize, but it's areally interesting, intense
(39:36):
vulnerability to theenvironment.
But you could also think of itas just, you know, engagement
with it and handshaking with it.That as humans, we too are
deeply vulnerable and engagedwith our environment, but we
build all these structures tomake us imagine we're not.
Caroline Picard (39:53):
One of the things that it makes me think
about in relation to is thisidea of place. And I like, I
feel like place is very presentin your book also. Like, the
presence of Northern Californiaand Northern California at this
moment, like, whether it'sresearchers that are trying to
(40:14):
study photosynthesis to discoverways that we can no longer sleep
or, you know, essentially, tofigure out ways that we might be
able to adapt photosynthesis sothat humans wouldn't have to
sleep so we could be moreproductive. But then at the same
time, there's this presence of,like, wildfires, and then
there's this presence of lichen,which is outside. So I thought
that was also very powerful tome, like, the placeness of
(40:39):
Northern California in the book,basically.
It's like the idea of themuseum. The museum creates a
framework and the place isinside and the artwork is, like,
taken from outside and put inthis like controlled environment
versus like what you're talkingabout. There is a kind of real
porousness between inside andoutside. The lichen is
(41:02):
everywhere, it's outside. And soI think in some ways also,
there's no pretense that thenatural environment isn't
present all the time, I guess,is what I'm like trying to
circle around, which I think isreally interesting as an
aesthetic position.
A. Laurie Palmer (41:19):
I wrote the book during the huge part of it
during the pandemic when I washeld up inside, which is sort of
a contradiction. You know? Butinside in Northern California,
for sure, and I think since Imoved here seven, eight years
ago, it's certainly hugely,affected me, my poikilohydrism
(41:40):
not being able to keep, youknow, its influences out. I
mean, part of NorthernCalifornia is its technological,
you know, ambitions, and that'spart of, I think, part of what
you're referring to with thestudies in photosynthesis. And
sometimes I start talking aboutlichens with trying to identify
five of the most radicalqualities.
But I didn't do that this timebecause there's there's really
(42:01):
so many more. But one of themthat we haven't really gone on
about is is slowness. And what Ithink looking at lichens can do
I mean, I mentioned, you know,going on a walk and only moving
a few feet in an hour and a halfand being absorbed by these
worlds, but really trying tothink about time in a in a
(42:21):
really different, lessaccelerated, less sped up, more
of a body time no matter whosebody it is, trying to pay
respect to and recognize thatour materiality as humans and
the the ways that other otherbeings maybe are more adapted to
capable of.
Caroline Picard (42:40):
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's
such an exciting book. I know Ikeep saying that, but I feel
like receiving it in the mailand seeing it and sort of
holding it as a printed boundcopy was such a thrill,
especially after all of theconversations that we've been
having, and such a pleasure tobe able to talk to you about it.
A. Laurie Palmer (42:59):
Thank you. It for for inviting me to to make
it. I mean, that was amazing.That was amazing. And it it
really you know, in spite ofhaving been thinking about
lichens for a long time and, youknow, trying to videotape them
for years and years and yearsgrowing, which is an ongoing
project, it's a really, reallyinteresting practice.
(43:20):
But writing the book just tookme into territory I didn't
expect or anticipate. And Ireally appreciate how that kind
of invitation in a way can leadone somewhere. And I am really,
really grateful for that, bothof you and also to University of
Minnesota Press.
Giovanni Aloi (43:37):
Thank you, Lori. It's Been really great working
with you and we're very proud ofyour book.
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