January 5, 2022 • 63 mins
Steve Lillywhite is a multi-award-winning music-making pioneer, and Commander of the Order of the British Empire, whose iconic work spans over four decades, producing over 500 records including The Scream by Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Crossing by Big Country, Peter Gabriel by Peter Gabriel, Sparkle in the Rain by Simple Minds, The Joshua Tree by U2, Naked by Talking Heads, Vauxhall and I by Morrissey. He has been Managing Director of Mercury Records and Senior Vice President of A&R at Columbia Records.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Roy Sharples (00:06):
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown
origins podcast. Why are youlistening to this podcast? Are
you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert, looking for
insights, or growing yourcareer? I created the unknown
origins podcast to provideaccess to insights and content
(00:29):
from creators worldwide withinspirational conversations and
storytelling, about art,architecture, design,
entrepreneurship, fashion, film,music, and pop culture. Music is
the language of the world withno boundaries. It unites and
brings people together,regardless of time and space,
(00:50):
and it can change the worldaffect a mood, atmosphere and
behavior and captures a momentin time. Steve Lillywhite
epitomizes this magic andwonder. Steve is a multi award
winning music making pioneer andCommander of the Order of the
British Empire, whose iconicwork spans over four decades,
(01:12):
producing over 500 records,including the Scream by Siouxsie
and the Banshees, The Crossingby Big Country, Peter Gabriel by
Peter Gabriel, Sparkle in theRain by Simple Minds, The Joshua
Tree by U2, Naked by TalkingHeads, and Vauxhall and I by
Morrissey. He has been ManagingDirector of Mercury Records and
(01:35):
Senior Vice President of A&R atColumbia Records. Hello, and
welcome, Steve!
Steve Lillywhite (01:42):
Hi, there, Roy. My name is Steve
Lillywhite. I used to be arecord producer. I used to say
that people, now they say whatare records? So I presume I'm,
I'm a music producer, but I'vebeen I've been doing it for so
bloody long that is that thething about being a music
(02:02):
producer is not like being adoctor, after about 40 years, or
any creativity. After 40 yearsof being a doctor, you're
supposedly a better doctor,after 40 years of doing music,
I'm not sure if you're ever ifyou're any better than you were
on day one. And that's borne outby the amount of artists whose
(02:23):
first album is their best. But Idigress. Off you go.
Roy Sharples (02:29):
That's a fine way of putting it but I would argue
with you there are Steve thatvery few have had the impact on
pop culture and, and millions ofpeople's lives that you have.
And I think being being being achild of the 80s like myself,
growing up being an ardent musiccollector and going into those
those record stores back in the80s. Where, you know, it was
(02:50):
like almost like a religiouspilgrimage. Can I go in that on
the Saturday mornings and filteron your way through the
different categories of music,cross examining the record
sleeves. And, you know, musicthen was it. People were fairly
on the music tastes.Your namewas omnipresent with so many of
(03:12):
those pioneering influentialrecords.
Steve Lillywhite (03:16):
It was a very fertile era. Yeah. You know, I
mean, there was a lot, thatthere was a lot of very diverse
acts, who were all now inretrospect, you know, back in
that time when you're young andopinionated. Yeah, you know, you
definitely had your favoritesand everything but, but even if
(03:38):
I, you know, I've never reallybeen a fan of simply read. But
you know, you now look back andyou go, what's even simply read,
we're pretty good.
Roy Sharples (03:50):
I mean, the variance and style and it wasn't
just like it was year after ayear, there was something new
happening, and music at thattime, okay, we had the Top of
the Pops in the UK and thewhistle test and the enemy that
really channeled and the latestand greatest at that moment in
time with a huge captive kind ofaudience and that mechanisms. It
(04:10):
has evaporated now through allthe other means, but it wasn't
just that it was music thenreally helped define fashion and
movements and pop culture. Wereyou aware at that time the
impact that you were having uponpeople's lives and pop culture?
Steve Lillywhite (04:27):
No, absolutely not. You don't ever when you're
young and opinionated. You you.
I mean for me, for me it was itwas a mixture of fear. I think
one of the one of the things Ialways remember is that I never
thought I was good enough. And Istill I still take it to me.
(04:49):
Right? You know, it's still oneof my core beliefs is that
there's that there's two verybad emotions. You know, one of
them is, is complacency, youknow, which I think is one of
the worst things, but anotherone is uncertainty. So if you
can somehow move your waythrough your life without ever
(05:11):
being complacent, but also neverbeing uncertain. I mean, there's
there's a great strength inthat. And I was very lucky that,
that, you know, I, I was not I'mnot an animal I don't self
analyze, because as I say, ifyou self analyze your work while
you're doing it, you can onlyever forget, you either like it
(05:32):
or you don't like it once it hasbeen finished as a piece of art.
And of course, if you like it,there's the element of
complacency. And if you don'tlike it, there's that element of
uncertainty, both which I thinka negative elements in
creativity.
Roy Sharples (05:51):
So true, the golden rule is to avoid the
deadly sin of complacency, andto embrace uncertainty, without
fear, to navigate the wayforward to discover the new. So
be in the moment, be self aware,and resilient, by constantly
keeping perspective evolving,and innovating. Otherwise, your
(06:11):
star will fall, and the futurewill leave you behind. When did
you realize that you werecreative? And then what
attracted you to become aproducer in the first place?
Steve Lillywhite (06:23):
Well, I always say that I was just that I'll
give you a quick background, Iwas I was sort of middle class
born in 1955. Which I think isprobably the greatest era of
human social. What's the wordwhere the state provides you
(06:47):
with with as much as you need,you know.
Roy Sharples (06:51):
There was good social system.
Steve Lillywhite (06:53):
Now that was great, you know, you could pay
for for schooling. But the butthe comprehensive gave you just
as good you could pay for youreducation, but the states that
pay for your dentist or yourdoctor, or even it came down to
the BBC, which was a great, agreat thing where it was, you
could not bribe the BBC to getyour song on the radio. So and
(07:18):
they really they, for them, itwas all about the art, you know,
they and varying systems ofmusic, you know, so, so really,
I grew up in a in a wonderfulera even before that, you know,
but But I, I was no good atschool, I managed to get a job
in a recording studio purely by,by luck. And then after five
(07:44):
years of being in that recordingstudio, my boss offered us some
free time if we wanted to go andpractice engineering and
producing and, and I took inthis band, which was the
earliest version of ultravox,which had a singer called John
Fox, it wasn't the media as muchas I like, as much as Mitch is a
(08:06):
nice bloke and a good friend.
The John Fox virgin was a littlebit more, it was like more of a
punky Roxy Music. And, and fromthen I I, through a series of
of, of luck, I managed to workwith Siouxsie and the Banshees,
and I had my first hit. Now, youknow, it's always a catch 22
(08:27):
situation, being a producer,like you only get the work if
you've had the hit. But how doyou get the work if you haven't
had the hit. And all of asudden, this this wave of punk
rock was full of people I alwayssay was full of artists who
couldn't play really play theirinstruments. So what better than
a producer who couldn't reallyproduce and that's how I that's
(08:48):
how I started off really,certainly after success, I you
can either view your success intwo different ways. You know,
for me, it made me think, oh mygod, I can choose to work with
some really cool artists.
Whereas of course, before thesuccess, why would call artists
(09:11):
want to work with me? Who was I?
You know, I always looked at itthis way that, that you could,
it gave me the choice to workwith great artists. Now you talk
about me as being a creative Idon't. I am creative, but what
my great skill is, is unlockingcreativity within other people.
It's like for me, even if it'slike the world's biggest band
(09:34):
came to me and said, Steve, Iwant you to produce me. If they
said to me, Steve will dowhatever you want. I would say
no, I'm not the right guy foryou. Luckily, not many people do
that. The artists I work withall it's like Steve, I've got
these 10 ideas, and I go okay,great. Give me the 10 ideas. Let
(09:54):
me listen. I'll say that one'sgood. Yeah, get rid of that one.
Get it? No. that one now if youtake that bit there, so it's I
love taking, I love putting intosort of order the wonderful
madness of great creativepeople. And there's, that's
creative in itself, I suppose.
(10:18):
Although for many years I, I, I,I didn't really realize that
because I just thought what Iwas doing was very easy. And it
was only looking back that Ilook at my career and I go, wow,
I mean, yes, there was latenights, and there was a lot of
drama and a lot of hair pulling.
But for, for me, it didn't seemlike it was that difficult. You
(10:39):
know, I was sort of rollingthrough the ages. And I mean,
that was, you know, I mean, I'vehad success in many decades. But
but, you know, I think if youlook back around the early ages,
which is the time that you were,yeah, wide eyed and innocent and
looking on the back of BigCountry and going who's this
shitty name wonderful band fromfrom from Glasgow called the
(11:07):
trash cans, Sinatra's who? Idon't know if you ever heard of
them. They were so great. And wenever really got successful with
them. But But I did get successwith the with the big country
and the Simple Minds and yeah,and Kirsty Of course, who was
yes, the McColl I was married toI mean, she was she was from
Croydon, but there was nevermore of a Celtic spirit than her
(11:31):
she was, for some reason thatCeltic spirits is I can really
relate. I have a great empathytowards that sort of, I don't
know. I mean, I don't know why.
My fucking name Lillywhite isEnglish now!
Roy Sharples (11:52):
You're right, and that alchemy shows up in your
work. Your point around artisticinnocence. And the chemistry you
sparked with Siouxsie and theBanshees demonstrates the
attitude, imagination, and theambition to do something by
making it happen. trumped beingtechnically sophisticated.
Steve Lillywhite (12:12):
I always thought that, you know,
equipment is there to be to beabused rather than use. The
thing I found about punk wasthat it was a fantastic
attitude, but a limit of form. Ithought to myself that if I'm
going to manage to get throughthis life without ever having to
(12:35):
do a proper job, and it wasreally fear that if I wasn't a
successful producer, I would beflipping burgers. There was that
fear that that drove me ontowanting to make sure what I did
was a hit, or at least was was awonderful piece of art. Because
(12:55):
of course, I really do believeart before commerce, you know, I
mean, some people try and makecommercial records at my
greatest and I think, you know,my art is greatest, we didn't
make records for the public, wemade records, because we thought
they would call. Yeah. And by,you know, and I think maybe
(13:17):
America is a different placewhere, where people look at the
bottom line, and they want asuccessful hit record. But the
great thing about the Britishstrong British music scene that
we came up from, was that if youlooked fantastic, that could
actually be enough, it didn'tmatter. You know, you could be,
(13:38):
you know, boy, George, NateRhodes. But on the other side,
you've got Stuart Adamson andJim Carr. And, and you know, and
Julian Pope, what a wonderful,crazy guy Julian Cope was, you
know, and God bless him. Soeclectic.
Roy Sharples (13:55):
It's fascinating that when you name all those
names, right, and how differentthey all were yet, the prop, the
record collections and theirinfluences are probably the
same. They were all in thepursuit of authentic creative
expression, by transcending theordinary, routine and status quo
by manifesting what's insidethem and around them to come up
with their own unique voice andstyle. And they did that in a
(14:17):
way that was fiercelycompetitive with one another,
which ultimately sparked themon.
Steve Lillywhite (14:22):
Yeah, it's a very different world that we
live in now. And I think justpurely, just one interesting
fact is that when I always saythe main difference between
artists now and artists, then isthat back in the 80s, especially
if you were working on a song,and someone said, Oh, that
(14:43):
sounds a little bit like someoneelse's song. We would
immediately drop it. Yeah,because it was there was nothing
worse than sounding like someoneelse. Now. What happens now is
that if you sound like someoneelse, you can immediately access
it right? You can listen toevery record ever made. Back in
(15:05):
those days, we never listened toother people's records in the
studio. I know some people did.
I never did. But but now it'slike, well, good, that sounds
like something else. Let'schange a few chords and use that
as a, as a springboard for ourown. You know, whereas we were
much more in the, in the processof inventing stuff, or what we
(15:29):
thought was inventing it. Imean, occasionally things would
sound a bit like someone elsebut, but it was none of my
artists anyway, whenever I sayoh, you're good. You know, it's
good that it sounds like anotherbad. If it sounded like another
band, we would just we woulddismiss it and start on another
song.
Roy Sharples (15:51):
That is so revealing from a fan's
perspective, which I wasn'tstill on. That was how I
listened to music. It was to apoint where you are anal
retentive, a transport an anorakabout having a smell for the
disingenuous and cleaning thedecks to detect any plagiarism
(16:11):
and unethical reference points.
"Oh, that sounds like the rifffrom Jumpin' Jack Flash," "The
intro is a rip from Big YellowTaxi," or "That's a lyric from
Quadrophenia, etc, etc." Thiswas an instant turnoff if the
song, album and bond hadplagarised by someone else. So
originality and authenticcreativity were non-negotiable,
which I think raised the barhigh for original material and
(16:35):
let bonds know they were notgoing to get off with it any
other way. I don't believegenerations that have came after
that are as hardcore, which isalso symptomatic of the cut and
paste culture from the internetand instant gratification
clickbait culture of socialmedia.
Steve Lillywhite (16:56):
You're right and funny when you say smell
that because when you're young,you've got a fucking great
sense.
Roy Sharples (17:05):
You're a purist.
Steve Lillywhite (17:05):
Yeah, you're right. And, you know, it's, uh,
yeah, it was, I was, you know,thinking about it. I was so
lucky. You know, I one of myquotes has been that, you know,
I'm not sure I would enter themusic business. Because I don't
want to be a typist. Yeah, and alot of music now, for better or
(17:29):
for worse, because it's only youknow, I'm not Luddite. I believe
in science, and I believe intechnology always. Moving
forwards in terms of, ofimproving, yeah, or you can't
stop it. If it makes it worse,then so be it. But but you can't
stop technology. You know,that's the human way. You know,
(17:52):
we are we have a brain. We can'tgo otherwise you're in the
fucking Taliban as far as iExactly. You know, and, and so I
believe in science. I believe inthe experts of science. I
believe in all that, you know,there's, I mean, there's some
things nowadays in life that arebeing questioned, that seems to
be just, why did we evolve thiswonderful, wonderful system of
(18:17):
living, that we are now justdestroying. Because we don't
believe in the expert. You know,we will because we question
things.
Roy Sharples (18:28):
Constantly analyzing and critiquing,
questioning and challenging thestatus quo, in the everyday life
to provide an alternative.
Every creative will tell youthat there is no ON or OFF
button for creativity. It's aconstant that happens naturally
by design, or by accident in oureveryday life.
Steve Lillywhite (18:47):
Or by drugs or by drugs.
And because I, you know, I'mactually 24 years, clean and
sober. And every single record Imade before the 15th of May
1997, was I was either drunk orhigh on marijuana or doing good.
(19:09):
I mean, you know, and it was allpart of my career tip period.
Now, I got all my Grammys afterI got sober. So, and, you know,
I, and I've thought about this alot. And I've, my conclusion is
that, yes, the reason a lot ofcreative people take drugs to
become creative is becausethey're lazy. But in fact, you
(19:33):
can get to that point withoutthe drugs, it's just a little
bit more difficult. And I'llgive you a great example. I
always thought that, you know,Amy Winehouse was the sort of
real deal, and Adele wasslightly dialing it in. Now, if
you listen to Adele's newestalbum, she has reached creative
(19:56):
depths of a crazy The sort ofAmy Winehouse got to, but she's
done it. I know she's not goingto die or drugs or anything like
that. Yeah, she is what I'msaying. And you know bolo goes
to those places, you know, youcan get to the ultimate creative
place without resorting to that.
It's just it's much easier toget high and yeah. And for me,
(20:19):
I, as I say I, I, you know, allmy grammars have been got so
bad. I've been lucky enough tohave got six grammars I got them
all after I got sober. So, youknow, I will now say slightly,
controversially, I will say,Well, imagine if Sergeant
Pepper's had been done drugfree, how good that would have
(20:42):
been. But you know, maybe that'snot true.
Roy Sharples (20:47):
All there that the musical movements, especially
1960s 70s, like the hippiemovement, right through to the
70s 80s and beyond, like eachmovement that seemed to have had
a drug choice that's connectedwith the fashion, the style, the
sound. It's a fascinatingperspective you gave, and also
that your crowning successes interms of industry achievements
(21:08):
have been done by being clean.
Steve Lillywhite (21:10):
You know what?
I'm very, I'm very proud of it.
And I, you know, no, it's, um, Ireally believe that I spent all
these years trying to findnirvana. You know, and I
actually, it is living in themoment is one of those. You
know, I'm not at all so I'm aI'm a complete atheist and all
(21:33):
that. But there is somethingabout the Buddhist sense of
right here right now, that JesusJones song?
Roy Sharples (21:41):
It was a Jesus Jones song; "Right Here Right
Now," and also, congratulationsfor being clean for over 24
years.
Steve Lillywhite (21:50):
Oh, that's okay. It's one day at a time,
and it's very easy to do. And,you know, I'm Joy, I love it.
It's great.
Roy Sharples (21:57):
The creative process may seem magical,
especially where ideas can comefrom, and how they are brought
to form and life, but proventechniques, tools, methods, and
approaches to the art andscience of applied creativity
exist to help enable thecreative process. Steve, yeah.
What is your creative process interms of how do you make the
(22:18):
invisible visible by dreaming upideas, developing them into
concepts, and then bringing themto actualization?
Steve Lillywhite (22:27):
Well, I always say it's, it's my job as a
producer is, is, it's a bit likebeing a film director, but it's
not as dictatorial as a filmdirector, because the film
directors are artists don'twrite their own songs, whereas I
work with artists who writetheir own songs. So I it's
(22:47):
always more of a collaboration.
So for me, too, part of mycreativity is to is to, is to
paint is to set a scene forcreativity. And that's, you
know, a recording studio ingeneral, I've always said, you
can do a better performancestanding in the toilet than you
(23:10):
can, in a recording studiothat's dead, with headphones on
with a bunch of people at theother side of the glass, looking
at you, waiting for you toperform. Now, if you're an
artist, and you've never been ina studio before, the idea that
what you're about to do is goingto be probably defining your
(23:35):
whole life. You may, you mayjust tense up and not do it.
It's a bit like giving someone atennis racket and saying, go
straightaway and play the finalof Wimbledon. Well, you've not
been, you haven't really done,you might have practiced tennis,
(23:58):
but you've never been in on thecenter court. So my job is to
sort of, is to train them in, inin real time as well. You know,
as I say, it's, it's differentnow. But back in those days, the
idea of, of painting of settinga scene and allowing those
(24:19):
people to be so secure in myarms, so secure in my safety
blanket, my my safety net, thatthey can let themselves go and
they will know that I will catchthem and not let them smash
their head on the concretefloor.
Roy Sharples (24:42):
Steve, I do and I can totally correlate that to
other creative environments,right, where you're setting the
conditions and atmosphere toallow people to create without
fear. You're not sure in partand practice almost cool
creatively. With the artists inmind, and that takes skill,
(25:03):
practice and persistence.
Steve Lillywhite (25:05):
So yeah, and it's very important. And there's
lots of other little tips, youknow, you're like, you, I must
never if there's ever anyproblem with the technical
stuff, look, I know manyproducers who love to say, you
know, to shout out their theirjuniors and say, Hey, that
machine's not been lined upproperly, you know, oh, my God,
(25:26):
you know, and, and just being,then it's all on them. For me,
it's never about my ego. If myif any of my artists ever,
Steve's worried, then they arenot going, then it's going to be
the snowball effect. Yeah.
Because if they think I'mworried, they're worrying about
me being worried. So they'regoing to get worried. So they're
(25:47):
not going to be able to performand, and let their creative
juices run. You know, it's, um,yeah, so it's, and I was very
lucky because I was, I'm a, Ialways say that. My skewed, I'm
a bit like in a recordingspudding studio. And I'm a bit
like, the lifeguard on thebeach, I'm the coolest, you
(26:10):
know, I'm the alpha male in arecording studio. Take me out of
a recording studio, I'm reallynot an alpha male. But But I,
because I've been in recordingstudios, since I was 17. It,
it's so natural for me to justacquire this, this, this
leadership quality, which is,which is not dictatorial, it's
(26:34):
like, you know, and you get to.
Also another thing is, you getto know when problems are gonna
come. And that's also a bigthing, you know, if you can
stop, because people always say,oh, what happens when you have a
problem? Well, you know, one ofyour jobs is to see the problem
ahead of time, and to fix itbefore it becomes big.
Roy Sharples (26:59):
So Steve, you're, you're clearly a dreamer, maker
and doer with an insatiablecuriosity and ambition to make
things.
Steve Lillywhite (27:06):
Having a sense of wonder! Joy and wonder, are
my two favorite words, you know,and I, I don't need to have a
supreme being who invented me tonot have wonder, yeah, the
(27:26):
world? You know, I mean, I haveabsolute wonder at what human
beings can pull out of there aresix. Yeah, it's really, yeah.
Carry on.
Roy Sharples (27:36):
No, no, no, no, please, I'm enthusiastically
jumping in there, that joy andwonder, you know, it doesn't
just come through the work thatyou've done, your energy comes
through just speaking to younow. Your energy is contagious.
I'm sure you've been, you'vebeen many, many times.
(27:58):
authentically, it's not put onit's you!
Steve Lillywhite (28:00):
You know, it is and I'm lucky that now, you
know, I, I haven't, I haven'treally been producing for a
while, and I'm not sure if Iwant to produce anymore. I, I
used to have this thing that,you know, teachers were just
people who couldn't really makeit in the real world. And I've
(28:23):
changed my mind about that. So Iquite like the idea of not not
teaching specifics, you know,like, like, you have to use this
microphone on. Yes. I mean, forme, that's not important.
Because those things can change,you know, but there's certain
general things about creativitythat I you know, I'm, I
(28:48):
certainly, you know, I've givena few lectures and a few things
like that, and I quite enjoyespouse espousing a few. A few
things that I've learned overthe years, you know, which can
be, which can be transferredinto many creative ways of
(29:08):
looking at life.
Roy Sharples (29:09):
That's a fine place to be. You've been at the
summit of your craft fordecades, and are now passing the
baton to the next generation, byleaving the world in better
shape than you found it.
Steve Lillywhite (29:21):
Well, you know, what, hey, we, we try to
ultimately we always fail but,without trying, we're nothing
right?
Roy Sharples (29:29):
Exactly, so having that belief and passion and
focus and the dedication andmaking the sacrifices that you
did by putting the hard work.
What are the essential skillsneeded to survive and thrive as
a producer, Steve?
Steve Lillywhite (29:47):
Okay, well, you interestingly, there is a
there's a great producer, hisname is Bob Rock, and it always
made me you know, it wasslightly unfortunate that that
was his name because I thoughtwell He can only do that one
sort of music and he actuallydid rock music as well. But the
(30:08):
know what I mean is that is thatfor me even back in the early
days, when I had success withone artist, you there would be a
lot of pressure from these smallminded record companies that
they will go oh, he had a hitwith so and so let let's well he
can do this our band who sound abit like that band who he had
(30:29):
success with. Now, I never didthat. I use my success to then
expand my my repertoire. So Soyou know, I was very lucky that
even though there were timeswhen it seemed like Oh, Steve
Lillywhite only does rock bandsat the same time, I was
producing Joan Armatrading andPeter Gabriel, as well as the
(30:52):
Psychedelic Furs and XTC and youdo and Simple Minds. And then
then I and then during the sortof 90s, I went completely
differently and moved toAmerica. And I work with these
jam bands like so, you know, didsome great records with a band
called Dave Matthews Band whoare huge in America, and a band
(31:15):
called fish and the CountingCrows. So I always wanted to my
my sense of wonder, led me towant to work with different
styles of music. But alwayswithin a certain parameter. I, I
also knew that, that if I didsomething that I wasn't
(31:36):
passionate about, then Iwouldn't do a good job. You
know, and so, so if I would everturn down your band, it was for
your best for your Yeah, youknow, it was free for your good
as well as my good. You know,because I know that I can't, I
can't dial it in ROI. I am not.
You know, a lot of producers seeI never see it as a job. I see
(31:58):
it as a vocation. And thedifference between a job and a
vocation. And I sometimes I wishit was a job because with a job,
you're allowed to complain aboutit. That's what a job is my
fucking boss blah, blah, blah,blah, blah. You know, but with a
vocation, it you must have thatsame joy and wonder that you had
(32:19):
that first day when you walkedin and go, Oh, my God, this
looks like Star Trek. You know,literally, that's that's what
you do. And that was what itused to be like in the 80s when
someone walked into a studio.
That would be the first thatwould be the only sort of thing
people would say it was like,oh, it looks like Star Trek, you
(32:40):
know? Yeah. Now, now that senseof wonder for sure. has, you
know, recordings, people don'thave recording studios anymore.
And you know, anyone can make arecord in their bedroom, it's
technology always leads the artform, you know, the technology
will change. And then the artform will change following the
(33:02):
technology. It never works theother way around. The technology
is invented by boffins. And thenthe creative people come in and
fuck it up. Because no one whoinvents anything is that
creative? In a way. I mean, it'sa different sense of creativity,
you know. And, you know, you,you go back to like dramas, like
(33:26):
back in the 50s, when there wereno amplifiers, dramas had to be
very quiet, because they had tofit in their sound levels to the
orchestra. And then, of course,the technology changed electric
guitars and amplifiers, the artform changed, drummers became
heavy, and became a completelydifferent sense of art. You see,
(33:48):
and what we've had now is thetechnology has gone from, from
real musicians playing to havingeverything in a computer. And
the art form has changed as wellto music but that is done like
that. And, and it's a differentsort of art form. You know, it's
(34:11):
an it's not an art form. As Isay, I'm not sure if I would be
in the music business now if Iwas born 50 years later, because
I think now that it's a muchmore insular personal, one man
job, you know, where you sit ata computer and you and you just
type in your beats and then youtype in your, your baseline,
(34:33):
it's it's very different.
Roy Sharples (34:36):
Steve, you have a knack of taking complexity and
simplifying it into humored easyinterpretations got a great one
here very quickly.
Steve Lillywhite (34:45):
This is one of my new ones. Which is is is my
my my take on American cultureis mediocrity hides behind
choiceWhich is great, right? Because I
think if you have too muchchoice, everything can be
mediocre. If you, you know, ifyou have a restaurant that only
(35:07):
serves one thing, it better befucking good, or else it goes
out of business.
Roy Sharples (35:13):
That's so true.
And you know something as well,that comment there that
statement there, Steve, it's sosymptomatic of how society has
become, you know, like, thepolitical correctness of things,
the lack of true freedom ofexpression. It's all about
context, having respect foreveryone's individuality. Of
course, idiosyncrasies exist,though, fundamentally, people
are the same everywhere and thatwe are born, live and die. We
(35:37):
have loves, hates and passions,the brain, nerves, organs and
skin are the same bioticstructure. We breathe, drink and
eat, to stay alive. But whatmakes us unique is how we self
identify by interpreting theworld around us discovering our
strengths, and expressing ourpersonalities, talents, and
(36:01):
triumphs, therefore, people withan axe to grind, please think
twice about overcatastrophizing, and allowing
people to make art that is anexpression of them, than having
to check box standard criteriathat ultimately drive uniformed
mediocrity.
Steve Lillywhite (36:21):
You know, I'm as liberal as the next guy, and
honestly, I am. But I alsobelieve in to laugh at yourself.
You know, Ricky Gervais reallysums it up so much better than
me. It's all in the context, aswe know, you know, you can be
nasty to someone if it's not inthe right context, it can be
(36:42):
hurtful. You know, we, we grewup with, you know, John Cleese,
and great British humor was,it's something I hold so dear to
myself. And I don't want to besuddenly told that it's not
acceptable anymore. You know,and look, I understand. I
(37:06):
understand, you know, I go backto, to bigotry and all that.
Yes. But I don't know. It's verydifficult. You know, and I've
got young kids, and they, youknow, I was having an argument
with my daughter about HappyHolidays versus Merry Christmas.
I'd say hello. I'm a completeatheist. But I grew up saying
(37:28):
Merry Christmas. Not for anyreligious reasons, but it was
just what we did. Now youtelling me because she's
American. And she said, Are youtelling me to say happy
holidays? That's just as thatyou putting your culture onto
me? Right. You know, and thatand you know, yes, I understand
that some people don't celebrateChristmas. Yes, I do get that.
(37:52):
And America is. I don't know.
It's a very difficult difficultthing to to, to navigate because
young people especially I mean,look, I you know, do you know
fairy tale of New York thisacross Yeah, yeah. Well, that's,
you know, for many many years,they the lyric goes, you
scumbag. You magnet. Yeah.
(38:16):
Obviously Taggarts HappyChristmas. You're outside. Very
good. It's our last and that wasperfectly acceptable and it was
played on the radio now. I'msaying that the BBC which I
actually you know, I think it'sa great institution still,
although a little bit stuffy.
But but they they've come upwith a pretty good although
interesting fix for that becausethey managed to find a version
(38:38):
of Kirsty singing on Top of thePops. Your cheapen your haggard,
instead of which was a one offtape that she did on Top of the
Pops about 10, just before shewas killed, actually. And they
managed to tape the vocal of heron Top of the Pops, cut it in to
(38:58):
the actual record. So they hadtwo versions of her singing when
she you know, but what wasinteresting was the one on radio
two, which is like the oldperson's station, is the
original version, but the onethat they play on Radio One is
(39:20):
the is the is the edited versionwith the less offensive lyric
because they think young peopleare more offended now than we
were back in those days.
Roy Sharples (39:33):
Upon reflection Steve, what are the lessons
learned in terms of the pitfallsto avoid and the keys to success
to being a producer that you canshare with aspiring and existing
producers?
Steve Lillywhite (39:44):
Okay, well, absolutely. Complacency is
something that we should reallynever, never, you know, and
that's again, I'll go on aboutthe the you should never be The
artist is always the mostimportant person for a producer.
So your ego should never be partof the equation, you should
(40:08):
always serve the music first,the artists second, and your
needs as a as a as a producerthat are always to help the
greater good. But also, I, Ialways have a great analogy
about about artists, I alwayssay to artists, look, you can
(40:34):
try and make it in music, youcan try and make money in music,
but I equated to the to the NewYork Marathon. I always think
that, you know, I'll never sayto an artist stop making music.
And it's like the marathon, it'slike the marathon is full of
40,000 people who always want torun, I would never tell them,
(40:55):
don't run them out. But for me,the only ones I'm interested are
those five Ethiopians at thefront. To be honest, everyone
else can do their fun run. Butas a producer, I want those five
Ethiopians, those are the peopleI'm interested in. Because there
are so many people and so partof your your job as a producer
(41:18):
is to is to inspire people tobecome one of those five front
runners in the marathon, butalso to help choose the right
people to become the frontrunners in the marathon. You
know, it's so it's a mix of, ofskill of now, look, I was very
(41:40):
lucky that, you know, how do youknow who the WHO THE who the who
the creative ones are? Well,it's a mixture of like, the
smell that you have, like we,you, you you summed it up
succinctly when you said youcould smell someone who wasn't
real. And you know, you havethat great sense of smell when
you're young and full of wonder.
So it's a mixture of that is abut it's also the mixture of the
(42:03):
experience. And I was very luckythat I was even at the age of
23, I'd had five years in arecording studio. Now. No one
else in those days, was anexpert in a recording studio
after five years at the age of23. No artists, you know, they
they they've been playing in alittle in a little rehearsal
(42:25):
room. Yeah, you know, so. So togo into a studio and to have one
of their ill, you know, someonewho they knew to be in charge,
and to help them navigate, whatis the most important thing in
their life, without themrealizing it? Sometimes. That's
(42:45):
a big skill, you know, I woulddo things like I would take Jim
Carr off to have a game of tabletennis, or we did a vocal. And
we would, you know, we wouldspend a long time just talking
about anything, but what we wereabout to do, you know, it was a
case of preparing him. And thenafter the table tennis, which I
(43:08):
normally won, by the way,because it was always my thing,
you know, but I would let themwin one or two games. Now. I'm
joking. It was very, it wasvery, you know, we got very
competitive with that. And thenwhen it came to going in to do
the music, it was like, Okay,let's go do a vocal. And it was
like, this youth club. mentalitythat I like to try and you know,
(43:33):
just try and allow creativepeople to be creative. And I'm,
they're sort of steering thisthing. And by, you know, a mix
of instinct and fear, but mainlyhaving my synapses there all the
time, to to understand what'sgoing on this living organism of
(44:00):
what a rock band was. But all ofthis this eloquent, eloquent
sorts of describing what youdid, has only come later in life
when I look back and go, Oh,that's what you did. At the
time, you sort of do it. Becauseit's what you're what you love,
(44:20):
and you've got and the sense ofwonder, is far greater than your
sense of analyzing
Roy Sharples (44:30):
Apple and Spotify changed how we purchase and
consume music through digitalstreaming, arguably making it
more convenient and affordableto consume music. The internet
and social media have becomeintrinsic to our daily life and
routine, to the point where ourbrains have become overloaded
(44:50):
with information anddestruction. So we are using our
imaginations to disrupt andstart a revolution within a
society can assumed with easygratification and immediate
success in a world saturatedwith consumer land, celebrity
culture, where everyone looksthe same, and everything is for
(45:12):
sale. Steve, what's your visionfor the future of music? And the
role of authentic creativitywill play?
Steve Lillywhite (45:21):
Oh, well, it's, as I say, the technology
has pretty much ground to a haltin the last five years. And when
the technology doesn't changethe art form, is questionable
how it changes. So I think rightnow we're at a, you know, we
have great songwriters, we have,you know, singers are better now
(45:43):
than they've ever been in thehistory of human race, auto tune
to start with made made singersin tune. But now people listen
to auto tune singers, andthey've learned how to be great
singers. So the human race is agreat is very in tune singing
wise artists should try theirbest to do something different.
(46:06):
You know, I mean, it's verydifficult when you don't have
the technology always changing,to be able to fuck with the
technology to make more creativeart. I think it's very
difficult. But as I say, you dohave, you know, I mean, someone
like Ed Sheeran, there's noquestion that, I mean, yes, I
can hear the songs he listens tobefore he writes a song, you
(46:30):
know, I know where he comesfrom. But, but every now and
again, you're always amazed bysomething that touches you. And,
you know, a sense of wonder isvery important. You know, as I
say, it's, I can't, I can't saythis strongly enough. You know,
I think, if artists now havelost the innocence, of, of, of
(46:56):
music, and that, you know, Iremember you to right at the
very beginning, they only knewabout five albums, because in
Dublin, you couldn't getrecords. So it was like, you
know, that they, they hardlylistened to any music. So, you
know, television that that bandis that was, you know, so. So
(47:19):
yeah, it's, I think the, thelimitations make for great art,
we know that. You know, I did analbum with Peter Gabriel, he
said to me, Steve, I don't wantany symbols played on this
album, and all of a sudden, Iwent, Oh, no symbols, that means
I can really experiment with myambience, and my, and my, you
(47:42):
know, and all of a sudden, weinvented this whole new drum
sound that came out. And that'sbecame like the 80s drum sound,
purely because Peter Gabrielsaid, I don't want symbols on my
record, you know, one littlestatement of, of art being
limited and being brought down,you know, so, yeah, I'm always I
(48:04):
always like to try and putlimitations on. You know, we
would always back in those days.
Well, Sergeant Pepper's was madeon four track. And it's such a
varied record. You look atnowadays, you have unlimited
sound, and opportunities forrecording. Why does everything
sound the same? You know, it's,it's, it's a, it's a conundrum,
(48:25):
Roy.
Roy Sharples (48:30):
Your point about innocence Steve, is a damn good
one! One of our most fundamentallife needs is to create
creativity, as a corediscipline, like reading,
writing, and arithmetic. It isnot incidental, and nice to have
as a way of life. Pablo Picassobelieved all children are
(48:52):
artists, but they lose theircreativity when they grow up. So
grow into not out of creativity.
And don't give up the dreams ofyour childhood and your approach
to the world through a child'seyes. And to your point, Steve,
with without wonder and joy. Itisn't something lost with age,
but rather a skill we oftenneglect to practice. The
(49:14):
challenge is not learning newthings, as this will inevitably
happen as we explore, travel,learn and grow. Instead, the
challenge is keeping ourchildlike wonder and imagination
alive. And having the courage tocombine those things with our
new experiences and insight.
Steve Lillywhite (49:36):
Yeah, and going to the depths, I think
really dig into the depths needsa lot of effort. Now, technology
has stopped has somehow enabledus to get something in quotes,
good without the effort, youknow, and sometimes the effort
required is the is part of thecreative process. Whereas now if
(49:59):
you can just dial it In the bestdrum sound in the world, the
best this the best that thenare, you know, it's too easy?
Maybe that's the case, you know,effort requires a you know,
creativity requires? He doeswell look, say take my great
friends you too. You know, Adam,the bass player is is fantastic
(50:20):
one of my best friends in theworld. But you know, he would
say that, that his baselines aresometimes very simple. So what
they have to do is that theyhave to write a song that has a
baseline that goes bumbum,bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum,
bumbum, bumbum, bumbum bumbum?
You know, he can't he can't be afancy bass player. Anyway, there
you go.
Roy Sharples (50:40):
Of all the records you've produced? Which one do
you think about the most?
Steve Lillywhite (50:45):
I don't think about many of them very often.
But one thing that I do rememberwas that the big country had
been everyone, you know, it wasthey got signed post skids. And,
and they had a producer calledChris Thomas, who was like,
(51:07):
fantastic. Go in and work withthem. And it didn't work out
very well. And then all of asudden, the record company were
a little bit like, Oh, if ChrisThomas can't do it, we're a
little bit stuck. So they askedme to go in, and I produced a
song with them just a singlefirst to see how it went a song
called fields of fire. Yeah, andI always, and I always remember
(51:29):
finishing that song. And StuartAdamson, the singer and main guy
from big country, just being sofull of just listening to it and
going, Oh my God, that's thesound that I've been wanting,
you know, and it was any, and,and him going home that night
(51:50):
and writing in a big country.
Wow. And, you know, so, soprobably, to as a producer, you
know, that the greatest thing tobe able to do is to is to be
able to inspire someone to just,you know, to do something like
that. So I, you know, we're abig country I was so you know,
and I listened back to,especially some of the 12 inch
(52:12):
mixes, I did have some of thosesongs. There's a song called
Wonderland, you should listen tothe 12 remix of Wonderland.
It's, it's pretty out there. Imean, it's,
Roy Sharples (52:26):
This is gonna make me start listening to it
differently. I'm not just sayingthat right. But, um, and I've
listened a big company for avery long time. So they've
inspired me to do that.
Okay, next one; Artist you mostwant to produce but haven't
(yet)?
Steve Lillywhite (52:40):
Okay, well, this one will never happen
because David Bowie is dead. AndI'm, you know, I'm not sure what
it's all about timing ofpeople's careers. Yeah. Well,
you know, it's like, you know,would I want to produce Paul
McCartney now? No, I don't thinkI would. I don't think his voice
(53:02):
has sounded any good on anyrecord for the last 20 years.
But you know what, what I'veproduced wings are good. I loved
wings as much as nearly as muchas the Beatles, you know? Yeah.
There's some fantastic songsthere. So, yeah, I think David
Bowie, you know, was my artistalbum you wished you produced
but didn't hunky dory for me,you know, and it's funny. I went
(53:26):
back, it's 50 years since "HunkyDory" was released.
Roy Sharples (53:29):
It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Steve Lillywhite (53:30):
Yeah. I went back and I and I, and I was
reading about it. And it saidthat hunky dory and Ziggy
Stardust were recorded withinthree months of email. And I
thought, oh, which, which one isthe better album now? And I
listened to the two of them andI have to say, hunky dory far
(53:52):
exceeds Ziggy Stardust, ZiggyStardust was a little bit just
boring. You know, it's justhunky dory had the flowery piano
and miserable acoustics and thiswhole thing was Ziggy Stardust
was just like, you know, sort ofpower chords on it. Yeah, you're
absolutely right. And it'll bemore are a Wk you know,
(54:14):
admittedly with a sort ofstooges punky thing to it, but,
but still, it didn't last forme. It didn't last the test of
time, like hunky dory did, whichstill, for me, is just the most
amazing records of all time. Andalso, I mean, Joni Mitchell as
well, I think Joni is a greatartist.
Roy Sharples (54:35):
Totally! Most creative artist you've produced?
Steve Lillywhite (54:39):
Oh, most creative. Well, you've got I
would probably say you too, butbut but that's a combination of,
of create of, of someone likethe edge being, being very
creative, but sometimes a littlebit It's sort of dreary, and
(55:05):
Bono who is not so creative atall, but has the biggest
Napoleon complex. You know, Iknow he will say that. I mean,
he's, you know, you know, he'sknown as the little fella. Has
anyone seen the little fella?
But no, he is just so. Sodriven, you know, and, and his
(55:29):
heart is so big. So yeah, Ithink he's, you know, a great
band has, you know, it's notabout one of the things that
absolutely pisses me off. AndI've heard this from producers
over the years, who take greatpride in saying, Ah, you know, I
made that That album was a hit,but I had to sack the drummer.
(55:53):
Yeah, and it's, oh my god, maybethe drummer was the person who
formed the band, maybe thedrummer is the reason that the
band is good. It's not just adrumming. It's an ecosystem,
that that drummer is part of,you know, and very often this
producer who says I had to firethe drummer and the album's
(56:13):
ahead, but they never haveanother hit album. Because he
has pulled up art. He's taken alimb from that being, you know,
and who He Who am I to say that?
So if I think maybe the drummeris not good enough, but let's
face it nowadays, you know, withtime you can get a great
(56:36):
performance out of anyone. Idon't believe that. But if I
really did think I didn't likethe drummer enough, I just
wouldn't do the record. I youknow, your mind, who am I to
tell a band that their drummeris not good enough? When I when
that drummer look REM I lovedREM never had a hit record after
their drummer left. Yeah, theyhad the best session guys in the
(57:00):
world playing for them. But whoknows what the drummer so, you
know, I, you understand what I'msaying there, Roy Boy?
Roy Sharples (57:10):
I totally am Steve! The most underwhelming
production experience you'vehad?
Steve Lillywhite (57:16):
I don't think I ever did. Because part of my
job as a producer is to decideto do it in the first place.
That's a choice, you know,because once I'm in, I'm in
Yeah. And I am completely 100%responsible for that record.
Once I say I'll do it. So I haveto be absolutely sure that I can
(57:39):
do it. You know, so very rarelyhave I? You know, I haven't made
a great record every time I didan album with a girl singer
called Toya. Well, you know, tobe honest, I mean, as nice as
she was. I think the reason Idid it was because she was the
(58:00):
biggest female singer in Englandat the time. And and of course,
that's not the biggest reason todo someone's album. Yeah. So he,
it wasn't successful. And so,you know, I know that that my
choice to do your record is avery big production decision in
(58:22):
the first place. So I take thatas a very, I take that very
importantly.
Roy Sharples (58:27):
Who would be in your supergroup
guitarist, the basis that thekeyboard player and the drummer?
Steve Lillywhite (58:33):
Okay. I saw this question earlier and, and I
thought I would reverse itbecause someone said I saw one
of these silly things on theinternet that said, has anyone
realized that the only livingmembers of The Beatles are a
bass player? Only living membersof the Rolling Stones are a
(58:58):
singer and a guitar is what if,and I'm just thinking that would
probably be the worst band inthe world. Keith Richards, Paul
McCartney and Ringo Starr.
Roy Sharples (59:11):
As a singer, who would you choose between Jim
Kerr, Morrissey, Bono, or DavidByrne.
Steve Lillywhite (59:20):
Purely as a singer, I would say Bano because
you know Bono is Frank Sinatra.
There's no question. But I meanMorrissey is also Frank Sinatra.
He's a brilliant singer when hesings something he believes in.
He's a terrible singer if hesings his own lyrics that he
(59:40):
doesn't believe in, right aswell. So David Byrne, he's a
very creative man. There's noquestion about it. And Morrissey
is Morrissey is the weirdest manI've ever worked. I mean,
Morrissey just he doesn't lookat music the same way as a
(01:00:00):
musician does and that's awonderful thing. Yeah, he looks
at it completely as a...whoknows? Yeah. That can be for
another, podcast...
Roy Sharples (01:00:14):
For sure. The last one; the guitarist Johnny Marr,
The Edge or Charlie Burchill?
Steve Lillywhite (01:00:25):
Oh, they all do different roles. I mean, I
loved Charlie birchas guitarplaying purely because we'll say
that the difference betweenSimple Minds and YouTube in
general was that the SimpleMinds that was the best version
of Simple Minds was always ledby Derek Forbes, lead baselines.
(01:00:47):
I mean, if you if you promisedyour miracle today don't don't
after. I mean, fantastic. It wasnever really the guitar was sort
of dancing in the background.
And it was this wonderfulbaseline that was that was
leading the the phrase I loveCharlie for that now. Johnny
Marr, you know, a fantasticYeah, again, Johnny an edge,
(01:01:15):
very similar in that, that Iwould probably go for the edge.
Just because he the edge canspend a week looking for a sound
and the actual performing parthe can do in about three
minutes.
Roy Sharpl (01:01:36):
Wow. That's amazing.
Steve Lillywhite (01:01:37):
You know, I mean, it's, it's for him, it's
not. He very he virtually nevergets a plays a wrong note, or
anything like Johnny is is verycreative. And I but I haven't
worked with Johnny as much asAngel Charlie, you know, Johnny
was like always, he would comeand play on the beat on the
(01:01:58):
talking heads a bit with Kirsty.
I mean, we spent as much time injust coming around our house and
listening to records as I did inthe studio with him.
Roy Sharples (01:02:10):
Great, Steve, this has been fantastic, thank you so
much!
Steve Lillywhi (01:02:14):
Oh, my pleasure!
Roy Sharples (01:02:21):
Do you want to learn more about how to create
what I'm frontiers by unleashingyour creative power? Then
consider getting "CREATIVITYWITHOUT FRONTIERS: How to make
the invisible visible bylighting the way into the
future." It's available inprint, digital and audio on all
(01:02:43):
relevant book platforms. Youhave been listening to the
Unknown Origins podcast. Pleasefollow subscribe, rate and
review us. For more informationgo to unknownorigins.com Thank
you for listening.
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown
origins podcast. Why are youlistening to this podcast? Are
you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert, looking for
insights, or growing yourcareer? I created the unknown
origins podcast to provideaccess to insights and content
(00:29):
from creators worldwide withinspirational conversations and
storytelling, about art,architecture, design,
entrepreneurship, fashion, film,music, and pop culture. Music is
the language of the world withno boundaries. It unites and
brings people together,regardless of time and space,
(00:50):
and it can change the worldaffect a mood, atmosphere and
behavior and captures a momentin time. Steve Lillywhite
epitomizes this magic andwonder. Steve is a multi award
winning music making pioneer andCommander of the Order of the
British Empire, whose iconicwork spans over four decades,
(01:12):
producing over 500 records,including the Scream by Siouxsie
and the Banshees, The Crossingby Big Country, Peter Gabriel by
Peter Gabriel, Sparkle in theRain by Simple Minds, The Joshua
Tree by U2, Naked by TalkingHeads, and Vauxhall and I by
Morrissey. He has been ManagingDirector of Mercury Records and
(01:35):
Senior Vice President of A&R atColumbia Records. Hello, and
welcome, Steve!
Steve Lillywhite (01:42):
Hi, there, Roy. My name is Steve
Lillywhite. I used to be arecord producer. I used to say
that people, now they say whatare records? So I presume I'm,
I'm a music producer, but I'vebeen I've been doing it for so
bloody long that is that thething about being a music
(02:02):
producer is not like being adoctor, after about 40 years, or
any creativity. After 40 yearsof being a doctor, you're
supposedly a better doctor,after 40 years of doing music,
I'm not sure if you're ever ifyou're any better than you were
on day one. And that's borne outby the amount of artists whose
(02:23):
first album is their best. But Idigress. Off you go.
Roy Sharples (02:29):
That's a fine way of putting it but I would argue
with you there are Steve thatvery few have had the impact on
pop culture and, and millions ofpeople's lives that you have.
And I think being being being achild of the 80s like myself,
growing up being an ardent musiccollector and going into those
those record stores back in the80s. Where, you know, it was
(02:50):
like almost like a religiouspilgrimage. Can I go in that on
the Saturday mornings and filteron your way through the
different categories of music,cross examining the record
sleeves. And, you know, musicthen was it. People were fairly
on the music tastes.Your namewas omnipresent with so many of
(03:12):
those pioneering influentialrecords.
Steve Lillywhite (03:16):
It was a very fertile era. Yeah. You know, I
mean, there was a lot, thatthere was a lot of very diverse
acts, who were all now inretrospect, you know, back in
that time when you're young andopinionated. Yeah, you know, you
definitely had your favoritesand everything but, but even if
(03:38):
I, you know, I've never reallybeen a fan of simply read. But
you know, you now look back andyou go, what's even simply read,
we're pretty good.
Roy Sharples (03:50):
I mean, the variance and style and it wasn't
just like it was year after ayear, there was something new
happening, and music at thattime, okay, we had the Top of
the Pops in the UK and thewhistle test and the enemy that
really channeled and the latestand greatest at that moment in
time with a huge captive kind ofaudience and that mechanisms. It
(04:10):
has evaporated now through allthe other means, but it wasn't
just that it was music thenreally helped define fashion and
movements and pop culture. Wereyou aware at that time the
impact that you were having uponpeople's lives and pop culture?
Steve Lillywhite (04:27):
No, absolutely not. You don't ever when you're
young and opinionated. You you.
I mean for me, for me it was itwas a mixture of fear. I think
one of the one of the things Ialways remember is that I never
thought I was good enough. And Istill I still take it to me.
(04:49):
Right? You know, it's still oneof my core beliefs is that
there's that there's two verybad emotions. You know, one of
them is, is complacency, youknow, which I think is one of
the worst things, but anotherone is uncertainty. So if you
can somehow move your waythrough your life without ever
(05:11):
being complacent, but also neverbeing uncertain. I mean, there's
there's a great strength inthat. And I was very lucky that,
that, you know, I, I was not I'mnot an animal I don't self
analyze, because as I say, ifyou self analyze your work while
you're doing it, you can onlyever forget, you either like it
(05:32):
or you don't like it once it hasbeen finished as a piece of art.
And of course, if you like it,there's the element of
complacency. And if you don'tlike it, there's that element of
uncertainty, both which I thinka negative elements in
creativity.
Roy Sharples (05:51):
So true, the golden rule is to avoid the
deadly sin of complacency, andto embrace uncertainty, without
fear, to navigate the wayforward to discover the new. So
be in the moment, be self aware,and resilient, by constantly
keeping perspective evolving,and innovating. Otherwise, your
(06:11):
star will fall, and the futurewill leave you behind. When did
you realize that you werecreative? And then what
attracted you to become aproducer in the first place?
Steve Lillywhite (06:23):
Well, I always say that I was just that I'll
give you a quick background, Iwas I was sort of middle class
born in 1955. Which I think isprobably the greatest era of
human social. What's the wordwhere the state provides you
(06:47):
with with as much as you need,you know.
Roy Sharples (06:51):
There was good social system.
Steve Lillywhite (06:53):
Now that was great, you know, you could pay
for for schooling. But the butthe comprehensive gave you just
as good you could pay for youreducation, but the states that
pay for your dentist or yourdoctor, or even it came down to
the BBC, which was a great, agreat thing where it was, you
could not bribe the BBC to getyour song on the radio. So and
(07:18):
they really they, for them, itwas all about the art, you know,
they and varying systems ofmusic, you know, so, so really,
I grew up in a in a wonderfulera even before that, you know,
but But I, I was no good atschool, I managed to get a job
in a recording studio purely by,by luck. And then after five
(07:44):
years of being in that recordingstudio, my boss offered us some
free time if we wanted to go andpractice engineering and
producing and, and I took inthis band, which was the
earliest version of ultravox,which had a singer called John
Fox, it wasn't the media as muchas I like, as much as Mitch is a
(08:06):
nice bloke and a good friend.
The John Fox virgin was a littlebit more, it was like more of a
punky Roxy Music. And, and fromthen I I, through a series of
of, of luck, I managed to workwith Siouxsie and the Banshees,
and I had my first hit. Now, youknow, it's always a catch 22
(08:27):
situation, being a producer,like you only get the work if
you've had the hit. But how doyou get the work if you haven't
had the hit. And all of asudden, this this wave of punk
rock was full of people I alwayssay was full of artists who
couldn't play really play theirinstruments. So what better than
a producer who couldn't reallyproduce and that's how I that's
(08:48):
how I started off really,certainly after success, I you
can either view your success intwo different ways. You know,
for me, it made me think, oh mygod, I can choose to work with
some really cool artists.
Whereas of course, before thesuccess, why would call artists
(09:11):
want to work with me? Who was I?
You know, I always looked at itthis way that, that you could,
it gave me the choice to workwith great artists. Now you talk
about me as being a creative Idon't. I am creative, but what
my great skill is, is unlockingcreativity within other people.
It's like for me, even if it'slike the world's biggest band
(09:34):
came to me and said, Steve, Iwant you to produce me. If they
said to me, Steve will dowhatever you want. I would say
no, I'm not the right guy foryou. Luckily, not many people do
that. The artists I work withall it's like Steve, I've got
these 10 ideas, and I go okay,great. Give me the 10 ideas. Let
(09:54):
me listen. I'll say that one'sgood. Yeah, get rid of that one.
Get it? No. that one now if youtake that bit there, so it's I
love taking, I love putting intosort of order the wonderful
madness of great creativepeople. And there's, that's
creative in itself, I suppose.
(10:18):
Although for many years I, I, I,I didn't really realize that
because I just thought what Iwas doing was very easy. And it
was only looking back that Ilook at my career and I go, wow,
I mean, yes, there was latenights, and there was a lot of
drama and a lot of hair pulling.
But for, for me, it didn't seemlike it was that difficult. You
(10:39):
know, I was sort of rollingthrough the ages. And I mean,
that was, you know, I mean, I'vehad success in many decades. But
but, you know, I think if youlook back around the early ages,
which is the time that you were,yeah, wide eyed and innocent and
looking on the back of BigCountry and going who's this
shitty name wonderful band fromfrom from Glasgow called the
(11:07):
trash cans, Sinatra's who? Idon't know if you ever heard of
them. They were so great. And wenever really got successful with
them. But But I did get successwith the with the big country
and the Simple Minds and yeah,and Kirsty Of course, who was
yes, the McColl I was married toI mean, she was she was from
Croydon, but there was nevermore of a Celtic spirit than her
(11:31):
she was, for some reason thatCeltic spirits is I can really
relate. I have a great empathytowards that sort of, I don't
know. I mean, I don't know why.
My fucking name Lillywhite isEnglish now!
Roy Sharples (11:52):
You're right, and that alchemy shows up in your
work. Your point around artisticinnocence. And the chemistry you
sparked with Siouxsie and theBanshees demonstrates the
attitude, imagination, and theambition to do something by
making it happen. trumped beingtechnically sophisticated.
Steve Lillywhite (12:12):
I always thought that, you know,
equipment is there to be to beabused rather than use. The
thing I found about punk wasthat it was a fantastic
attitude, but a limit of form. Ithought to myself that if I'm
going to manage to get throughthis life without ever having to
(12:35):
do a proper job, and it wasreally fear that if I wasn't a
successful producer, I would beflipping burgers. There was that
fear that that drove me ontowanting to make sure what I did
was a hit, or at least was was awonderful piece of art. Because
(12:55):
of course, I really do believeart before commerce, you know, I
mean, some people try and makecommercial records at my
greatest and I think, you know,my art is greatest, we didn't
make records for the public, wemade records, because we thought
they would call. Yeah. And by,you know, and I think maybe
(13:17):
America is a different placewhere, where people look at the
bottom line, and they want asuccessful hit record. But the
great thing about the Britishstrong British music scene that
we came up from, was that if youlooked fantastic, that could
actually be enough, it didn'tmatter. You know, you could be,
(13:38):
you know, boy, George, NateRhodes. But on the other side,
you've got Stuart Adamson andJim Carr. And, and you know, and
Julian Pope, what a wonderful,crazy guy Julian Cope was, you
know, and God bless him. Soeclectic.
Roy Sharples (13:55):
It's fascinating that when you name all those
names, right, and how differentthey all were yet, the prop, the
record collections and theirinfluences are probably the
same. They were all in thepursuit of authentic creative
expression, by transcending theordinary, routine and status quo
by manifesting what's insidethem and around them to come up
with their own unique voice andstyle. And they did that in a
(14:17):
way that was fiercelycompetitive with one another,
which ultimately sparked themon.
Steve Lillywhite (14:22):
Yeah, it's a very different world that we
live in now. And I think justpurely, just one interesting
fact is that when I always saythe main difference between
artists now and artists, then isthat back in the 80s, especially
if you were working on a song,and someone said, Oh, that
(14:43):
sounds a little bit like someoneelse's song. We would
immediately drop it. Yeah,because it was there was nothing
worse than sounding like someoneelse. Now. What happens now is
that if you sound like someoneelse, you can immediately access
it right? You can listen toevery record ever made. Back in
(15:05):
those days, we never listened toother people's records in the
studio. I know some people did.
I never did. But but now it'slike, well, good, that sounds
like something else. Let'schange a few chords and use that
as a, as a springboard for ourown. You know, whereas we were
much more in the, in the processof inventing stuff, or what we
(15:29):
thought was inventing it. Imean, occasionally things would
sound a bit like someone elsebut, but it was none of my
artists anyway, whenever I sayoh, you're good. You know, it's
good that it sounds like anotherbad. If it sounded like another
band, we would just we woulddismiss it and start on another
song.
Roy Sharples (15:51):
That is so revealing from a fan's
perspective, which I wasn'tstill on. That was how I
listened to music. It was to apoint where you are anal
retentive, a transport an anorakabout having a smell for the
disingenuous and cleaning thedecks to detect any plagiarism
(16:11):
and unethical reference points.
"Oh, that sounds like the rifffrom Jumpin' Jack Flash," "The
intro is a rip from Big YellowTaxi," or "That's a lyric from
Quadrophenia, etc, etc." Thiswas an instant turnoff if the
song, album and bond hadplagarised by someone else. So
originality and authenticcreativity were non-negotiable,
which I think raised the barhigh for original material and
(16:35):
let bonds know they were notgoing to get off with it any
other way. I don't believegenerations that have came after
that are as hardcore, which isalso symptomatic of the cut and
paste culture from the internetand instant gratification
clickbait culture of socialmedia.
Steve Lillywhite (16:56):
You're right and funny when you say smell
that because when you're young,you've got a fucking great
sense.
Roy Sharples (17:05):
You're a purist.
Steve Lillywhite (17:05):
Yeah, you're right. And, you know, it's, uh,
yeah, it was, I was, you know,thinking about it. I was so
lucky. You know, I one of myquotes has been that, you know,
I'm not sure I would enter themusic business. Because I don't
want to be a typist. Yeah, and alot of music now, for better or
(17:29):
for worse, because it's only youknow, I'm not Luddite. I believe
in science, and I believe intechnology always. Moving
forwards in terms of, ofimproving, yeah, or you can't
stop it. If it makes it worse,then so be it. But but you can't
stop technology. You know,that's the human way. You know,
(17:52):
we are we have a brain. We can'tgo otherwise you're in the
fucking Taliban as far as iExactly. You know, and, and so I
believe in science. I believe inthe experts of science. I
believe in all that, you know,there's, I mean, there's some
things nowadays in life that arebeing questioned, that seems to
be just, why did we evolve thiswonderful, wonderful system of
(18:17):
living, that we are now justdestroying. Because we don't
believe in the expert. You know,we will because we question
things.
Roy Sharples (18:28):
Constantly analyzing and critiquing,
questioning and challenging thestatus quo, in the everyday life
to provide an alternative.
Every creative will tell youthat there is no ON or OFF
button for creativity. It's aconstant that happens naturally
by design, or by accident in oureveryday life.
Steve Lillywhite (18:47):
Or by drugs or by drugs.
And because I, you know, I'mactually 24 years, clean and
sober. And every single record Imade before the 15th of May
1997, was I was either drunk orhigh on marijuana or doing good.
(19:09):
I mean, you know, and it was allpart of my career tip period.
Now, I got all my Grammys afterI got sober. So, and, you know,
I, and I've thought about this alot. And I've, my conclusion is
that, yes, the reason a lot ofcreative people take drugs to
become creative is becausethey're lazy. But in fact, you
(19:33):
can get to that point withoutthe drugs, it's just a little
bit more difficult. And I'llgive you a great example. I
always thought that, you know,Amy Winehouse was the sort of
real deal, and Adele wasslightly dialing it in. Now, if
you listen to Adele's newestalbum, she has reached creative
(19:56):
depths of a crazy The sort ofAmy Winehouse got to, but she's
done it. I know she's not goingto die or drugs or anything like
that. Yeah, she is what I'msaying. And you know bolo goes
to those places, you know, youcan get to the ultimate creative
place without resorting to that.
It's just it's much easier toget high and yeah. And for me,
(20:19):
I, as I say I, I, you know, allmy grammars have been got so
bad. I've been lucky enough tohave got six grammars I got them
all after I got sober. So, youknow, I will now say slightly,
controversially, I will say,Well, imagine if Sergeant
Pepper's had been done drugfree, how good that would have
(20:42):
been. But you know, maybe that'snot true.
Roy Sharples (20:47):
All there that the musical movements, especially
1960s 70s, like the hippiemovement, right through to the
70s 80s and beyond, like eachmovement that seemed to have had
a drug choice that's connectedwith the fashion, the style, the
sound. It's a fascinatingperspective you gave, and also
that your crowning successes interms of industry achievements
(21:08):
have been done by being clean.
Steve Lillywhite (21:10):
You know what?
I'm very, I'm very proud of it.
And I, you know, no, it's, um, Ireally believe that I spent all
these years trying to findnirvana. You know, and I
actually, it is living in themoment is one of those. You
know, I'm not at all so I'm aI'm a complete atheist and all
(21:33):
that. But there is somethingabout the Buddhist sense of
right here right now, that JesusJones song?
Roy Sharples (21:41):
It was a Jesus Jones song; "Right Here Right
Now," and also, congratulationsfor being clean for over 24
years.
Steve Lillywhite (21:50):
Oh, that's okay. It's one day at a time,
and it's very easy to do. And,you know, I'm Joy, I love it.
It's great.
Roy Sharples (21:57):
The creative process may seem magical,
especially where ideas can comefrom, and how they are brought
to form and life, but proventechniques, tools, methods, and
approaches to the art andscience of applied creativity
exist to help enable thecreative process. Steve, yeah.
What is your creative process interms of how do you make the
(22:18):
invisible visible by dreaming upideas, developing them into
concepts, and then bringing themto actualization?
Steve Lillywhite (22:27):
Well, I always say it's, it's my job as a
producer is, is, it's a bit likebeing a film director, but it's
not as dictatorial as a filmdirector, because the film
directors are artists don'twrite their own songs, whereas I
work with artists who writetheir own songs. So I it's
(22:47):
always more of a collaboration.
So for me, too, part of mycreativity is to is to, is to
paint is to set a scene forcreativity. And that's, you
know, a recording studio ingeneral, I've always said, you
can do a better performancestanding in the toilet than you
(23:10):
can, in a recording studiothat's dead, with headphones on
with a bunch of people at theother side of the glass, looking
at you, waiting for you toperform. Now, if you're an
artist, and you've never been ina studio before, the idea that
what you're about to do is goingto be probably defining your
(23:35):
whole life. You may, you mayjust tense up and not do it.
It's a bit like giving someone atennis racket and saying, go
straightaway and play the finalof Wimbledon. Well, you've not
been, you haven't really done,you might have practiced tennis,
(23:58):
but you've never been in on thecenter court. So my job is to
sort of, is to train them in, inin real time as well. You know,
as I say, it's, it's differentnow. But back in those days, the
idea of, of painting of settinga scene and allowing those
(24:19):
people to be so secure in myarms, so secure in my safety
blanket, my my safety net, thatthey can let themselves go and
they will know that I will catchthem and not let them smash
their head on the concretefloor.
Roy Sharples (24:42):
Steve, I do and I can totally correlate that to
other creative environments,right, where you're setting the
conditions and atmosphere toallow people to create without
fear. You're not sure in partand practice almost cool
creatively. With the artists inmind, and that takes skill,
(25:03):
practice and persistence.
Steve Lillywhite (25:05):
So yeah, and it's very important. And there's
lots of other little tips, youknow, you're like, you, I must
never if there's ever anyproblem with the technical
stuff, look, I know manyproducers who love to say, you
know, to shout out their theirjuniors and say, Hey, that
machine's not been lined upproperly, you know, oh, my God,
(25:26):
you know, and, and just being,then it's all on them. For me,
it's never about my ego. If myif any of my artists ever,
Steve's worried, then they arenot going, then it's going to be
the snowball effect. Yeah.
Because if they think I'mworried, they're worrying about
me being worried. So they'regoing to get worried. So they're
(25:47):
not going to be able to performand, and let their creative
juices run. You know, it's, um,yeah, so it's, and I was very
lucky because I was, I'm a, Ialways say that. My skewed, I'm
a bit like in a recordingspudding studio. And I'm a bit
like, the lifeguard on thebeach, I'm the coolest, you
(26:10):
know, I'm the alpha male in arecording studio. Take me out of
a recording studio, I'm reallynot an alpha male. But But I,
because I've been in recordingstudios, since I was 17. It,
it's so natural for me to justacquire this, this, this
leadership quality, which is,which is not dictatorial, it's
(26:34):
like, you know, and you get to.
Also another thing is, you getto know when problems are gonna
come. And that's also a bigthing, you know, if you can
stop, because people always say,oh, what happens when you have a
problem? Well, you know, one ofyour jobs is to see the problem
ahead of time, and to fix itbefore it becomes big.
Roy Sharples (26:59):
So Steve, you're, you're clearly a dreamer, maker
and doer with an insatiablecuriosity and ambition to make
things.
Steve Lillywhite (27:06):
Having a sense of wonder! Joy and wonder, are
my two favorite words, you know,and I, I don't need to have a
supreme being who invented me tonot have wonder, yeah, the
(27:26):
world? You know, I mean, I haveabsolute wonder at what human
beings can pull out of there aresix. Yeah, it's really, yeah.
Carry on.
Roy Sharples (27:36):
No, no, no, no, please, I'm enthusiastically
jumping in there, that joy andwonder, you know, it doesn't
just come through the work thatyou've done, your energy comes
through just speaking to younow. Your energy is contagious.
I'm sure you've been, you'vebeen many, many times.
(27:58):
authentically, it's not put onit's you!
Steve Lillywhite (28:00):
You know, it is and I'm lucky that now, you
know, I, I haven't, I haven'treally been producing for a
while, and I'm not sure if Iwant to produce anymore. I, I
used to have this thing that,you know, teachers were just
people who couldn't really makeit in the real world. And I've
(28:23):
changed my mind about that. So Iquite like the idea of not not
teaching specifics, you know,like, like, you have to use this
microphone on. Yes. I mean, forme, that's not important.
Because those things can change,you know, but there's certain
general things about creativitythat I you know, I'm, I
(28:48):
certainly, you know, I've givena few lectures and a few things
like that, and I quite enjoyespouse espousing a few. A few
things that I've learned overthe years, you know, which can
be, which can be transferredinto many creative ways of
(29:08):
looking at life.
Roy Sharples (29:09):
That's a fine place to be. You've been at the
summit of your craft fordecades, and are now passing the
baton to the next generation, byleaving the world in better
shape than you found it.
Steve Lillywhite (29:21):
Well, you know, what, hey, we, we try to
ultimately we always fail but,without trying, we're nothing
right?
Roy Sharples (29:29):
Exactly, so having that belief and passion and
focus and the dedication andmaking the sacrifices that you
did by putting the hard work.
What are the essential skillsneeded to survive and thrive as
a producer, Steve?
Steve Lillywhite (29:47):
Okay, well, you interestingly, there is a
there's a great producer, hisname is Bob Rock, and it always
made me you know, it wasslightly unfortunate that that
was his name because I thoughtwell He can only do that one
sort of music and he actuallydid rock music as well. But the
(30:08):
know what I mean is that is thatfor me even back in the early
days, when I had success withone artist, you there would be a
lot of pressure from these smallminded record companies that
they will go oh, he had a hitwith so and so let let's well he
can do this our band who sound abit like that band who he had
(30:29):
success with. Now, I never didthat. I use my success to then
expand my my repertoire. So Soyou know, I was very lucky that
even though there were timeswhen it seemed like Oh, Steve
Lillywhite only does rock bandsat the same time, I was
producing Joan Armatrading andPeter Gabriel, as well as the
(30:52):
Psychedelic Furs and XTC and youdo and Simple Minds. And then
then I and then during the sortof 90s, I went completely
differently and moved toAmerica. And I work with these
jam bands like so, you know, didsome great records with a band
called Dave Matthews Band whoare huge in America, and a band
(31:15):
called fish and the CountingCrows. So I always wanted to my
my sense of wonder, led me towant to work with different
styles of music. But alwayswithin a certain parameter. I, I
also knew that, that if I didsomething that I wasn't
(31:36):
passionate about, then Iwouldn't do a good job. You
know, and so, so if I would everturn down your band, it was for
your best for your Yeah, youknow, it was free for your good
as well as my good. You know,because I know that I can't, I
can't dial it in ROI. I am not.
You know, a lot of producers seeI never see it as a job. I see
(31:58):
it as a vocation. And thedifference between a job and a
vocation. And I sometimes I wishit was a job because with a job,
you're allowed to complain aboutit. That's what a job is my
fucking boss blah, blah, blah,blah, blah. You know, but with a
vocation, it you must have thatsame joy and wonder that you had
(32:19):
that first day when you walkedin and go, Oh, my God, this
looks like Star Trek. You know,literally, that's that's what
you do. And that was what itused to be like in the 80s when
someone walked into a studio.
That would be the first thatwould be the only sort of thing
people would say it was like,oh, it looks like Star Trek, you
(32:40):
know? Yeah. Now, now that senseof wonder for sure. has, you
know, recordings, people don'thave recording studios anymore.
And you know, anyone can make arecord in their bedroom, it's
technology always leads the artform, you know, the technology
will change. And then the artform will change following the
(33:02):
technology. It never works theother way around. The technology
is invented by boffins. And thenthe creative people come in and
fuck it up. Because no one whoinvents anything is that
creative? In a way. I mean, it'sa different sense of creativity,
you know. And, you know, you,you go back to like dramas, like
(33:26):
back in the 50s, when there wereno amplifiers, dramas had to be
very quiet, because they had tofit in their sound levels to the
orchestra. And then, of course,the technology changed electric
guitars and amplifiers, the artform changed, drummers became
heavy, and became a completelydifferent sense of art. You see,
(33:48):
and what we've had now is thetechnology has gone from, from
real musicians playing to havingeverything in a computer. And
the art form has changed as wellto music but that is done like
that. And, and it's a differentsort of art form. You know, it's
(34:11):
an it's not an art form. As Isay, I'm not sure if I would be
in the music business now if Iwas born 50 years later, because
I think now that it's a muchmore insular personal, one man
job, you know, where you sit ata computer and you and you just
type in your beats and then youtype in your, your baseline,
(34:33):
it's it's very different.
Roy Sharples (34:36):
Steve, you have a knack of taking complexity and
simplifying it into humored easyinterpretations got a great one
here very quickly.
Steve Lillywhite (34:45):
This is one of my new ones. Which is is is my
my my take on American cultureis mediocrity hides behind
choiceWhich is great, right? Because I
think if you have too muchchoice, everything can be
mediocre. If you, you know, ifyou have a restaurant that only
(35:07):
serves one thing, it better befucking good, or else it goes
out of business.
Roy Sharples (35:13):
That's so true.
And you know something as well,that comment there that
statement there, Steve, it's sosymptomatic of how society has
become, you know, like, thepolitical correctness of things,
the lack of true freedom ofexpression. It's all about
context, having respect foreveryone's individuality. Of
course, idiosyncrasies exist,though, fundamentally, people
are the same everywhere and thatwe are born, live and die. We
(35:37):
have loves, hates and passions,the brain, nerves, organs and
skin are the same bioticstructure. We breathe, drink and
eat, to stay alive. But whatmakes us unique is how we self
identify by interpreting theworld around us discovering our
strengths, and expressing ourpersonalities, talents, and
(36:01):
triumphs, therefore, people withan axe to grind, please think
twice about overcatastrophizing, and allowing
people to make art that is anexpression of them, than having
to check box standard criteriathat ultimately drive uniformed
mediocrity.
Steve Lillywhite (36:21):
You know, I'm as liberal as the next guy, and
honestly, I am. But I alsobelieve in to laugh at yourself.
You know, Ricky Gervais reallysums it up so much better than
me. It's all in the context, aswe know, you know, you can be
nasty to someone if it's not inthe right context, it can be
(36:42):
hurtful. You know, we, we grewup with, you know, John Cleese,
and great British humor was,it's something I hold so dear to
myself. And I don't want to besuddenly told that it's not
acceptable anymore. You know,and look, I understand. I
(37:06):
understand, you know, I go backto, to bigotry and all that.
Yes. But I don't know. It's verydifficult. You know, and I've
got young kids, and they, youknow, I was having an argument
with my daughter about HappyHolidays versus Merry Christmas.
I'd say hello. I'm a completeatheist. But I grew up saying
(37:28):
Merry Christmas. Not for anyreligious reasons, but it was
just what we did. Now youtelling me because she's
American. And she said, Are youtelling me to say happy
holidays? That's just as thatyou putting your culture onto
me? Right. You know, and thatand you know, yes, I understand
that some people don't celebrateChristmas. Yes, I do get that.
(37:52):
And America is. I don't know.
It's a very difficult difficultthing to to, to navigate because
young people especially I mean,look, I you know, do you know
fairy tale of New York thisacross Yeah, yeah. Well, that's,
you know, for many many years,they the lyric goes, you
scumbag. You magnet. Yeah.
(38:16):
Obviously Taggarts HappyChristmas. You're outside. Very
good. It's our last and that wasperfectly acceptable and it was
played on the radio now. I'msaying that the BBC which I
actually you know, I think it'sa great institution still,
although a little bit stuffy.
But but they they've come upwith a pretty good although
interesting fix for that becausethey managed to find a version
(38:38):
of Kirsty singing on Top of thePops. Your cheapen your haggard,
instead of which was a one offtape that she did on Top of the
Pops about 10, just before shewas killed, actually. And they
managed to tape the vocal of heron Top of the Pops, cut it in to
(38:58):
the actual record. So they hadtwo versions of her singing when
she you know, but what wasinteresting was the one on radio
two, which is like the oldperson's station, is the
original version, but the onethat they play on Radio One is
(39:20):
the is the is the edited versionwith the less offensive lyric
because they think young peopleare more offended now than we
were back in those days.
Roy Sharples (39:33):
Upon reflection Steve, what are the lessons
learned in terms of the pitfallsto avoid and the keys to success
to being a producer that you canshare with aspiring and existing
producers?
Steve Lillywhite (39:44):
Okay, well, absolutely. Complacency is
something that we should reallynever, never, you know, and
that's again, I'll go on aboutthe the you should never be The
artist is always the mostimportant person for a producer.
So your ego should never be partof the equation, you should
(40:08):
always serve the music first,the artists second, and your
needs as a as a as a producerthat are always to help the
greater good. But also, I, Ialways have a great analogy
about about artists, I alwayssay to artists, look, you can
(40:34):
try and make it in music, youcan try and make money in music,
but I equated to the to the NewYork Marathon. I always think
that, you know, I'll never sayto an artist stop making music.
And it's like the marathon, it'slike the marathon is full of
40,000 people who always want torun, I would never tell them,
(40:55):
don't run them out. But for me,the only ones I'm interested are
those five Ethiopians at thefront. To be honest, everyone
else can do their fun run. Butas a producer, I want those five
Ethiopians, those are the peopleI'm interested in. Because there
are so many people and so partof your your job as a producer
(41:18):
is to is to inspire people tobecome one of those five front
runners in the marathon, butalso to help choose the right
people to become the frontrunners in the marathon. You
know, it's so it's a mix of, ofskill of now, look, I was very
(41:40):
lucky that, you know, how do youknow who the WHO THE who the who
the creative ones are? Well,it's a mixture of like, the
smell that you have, like we,you, you you summed it up
succinctly when you said youcould smell someone who wasn't
real. And you know, you havethat great sense of smell when
you're young and full of wonder.
So it's a mixture of that is abut it's also the mixture of the
(42:03):
experience. And I was very luckythat I was even at the age of
23, I'd had five years in arecording studio. Now. No one
else in those days, was anexpert in a recording studio
after five years at the age of23. No artists, you know, they
they they've been playing in alittle in a little rehearsal
(42:25):
room. Yeah, you know, so. So togo into a studio and to have one
of their ill, you know, someonewho they knew to be in charge,
and to help them navigate, whatis the most important thing in
their life, without themrealizing it? Sometimes. That's
(42:45):
a big skill, you know, I woulddo things like I would take Jim
Carr off to have a game of tabletennis, or we did a vocal. And
we would, you know, we wouldspend a long time just talking
about anything, but what we wereabout to do, you know, it was a
case of preparing him. And thenafter the table tennis, which I
(43:08):
normally won, by the way,because it was always my thing,
you know, but I would let themwin one or two games. Now. I'm
joking. It was very, it wasvery, you know, we got very
competitive with that. And thenwhen it came to going in to do
the music, it was like, Okay,let's go do a vocal. And it was
like, this youth club. mentalitythat I like to try and you know,
(43:33):
just try and allow creativepeople to be creative. And I'm,
they're sort of steering thisthing. And by, you know, a mix
of instinct and fear, but mainlyhaving my synapses there all the
time, to to understand what'sgoing on this living organism of
(44:00):
what a rock band was. But all ofthis this eloquent, eloquent
sorts of describing what youdid, has only come later in life
when I look back and go, Oh,that's what you did. At the
time, you sort of do it. Becauseit's what you're what you love,
(44:20):
and you've got and the sense ofwonder, is far greater than your
sense of analyzing
Roy Sharples (44:30):
Apple and Spotify changed how we purchase and
consume music through digitalstreaming, arguably making it
more convenient and affordableto consume music. The internet
and social media have becomeintrinsic to our daily life and
routine, to the point where ourbrains have become overloaded
(44:50):
with information anddestruction. So we are using our
imaginations to disrupt andstart a revolution within a
society can assumed with easygratification and immediate
success in a world saturatedwith consumer land, celebrity
culture, where everyone looksthe same, and everything is for
(45:12):
sale. Steve, what's your visionfor the future of music? And the
role of authentic creativitywill play?
Steve Lillywhite (45:21):
Oh, well, it's, as I say, the technology
has pretty much ground to a haltin the last five years. And when
the technology doesn't changethe art form, is questionable
how it changes. So I think rightnow we're at a, you know, we
have great songwriters, we have,you know, singers are better now
(45:43):
than they've ever been in thehistory of human race, auto tune
to start with made made singersin tune. But now people listen
to auto tune singers, andthey've learned how to be great
singers. So the human race is agreat is very in tune singing
wise artists should try theirbest to do something different.
(46:06):
You know, I mean, it's verydifficult when you don't have
the technology always changing,to be able to fuck with the
technology to make more creativeart. I think it's very
difficult. But as I say, you dohave, you know, I mean, someone
like Ed Sheeran, there's noquestion that, I mean, yes, I
can hear the songs he listens tobefore he writes a song, you
(46:30):
know, I know where he comesfrom. But, but every now and
again, you're always amazed bysomething that touches you. And,
you know, a sense of wonder isvery important. You know, as I
say, it's, I can't, I can't saythis strongly enough. You know,
I think, if artists now havelost the innocence, of, of, of
(46:56):
music, and that, you know, Iremember you to right at the
very beginning, they only knewabout five albums, because in
Dublin, you couldn't getrecords. So it was like, you
know, that they, they hardlylistened to any music. So, you
know, television that that bandis that was, you know, so. So
(47:19):
yeah, it's, I think the, thelimitations make for great art,
we know that. You know, I did analbum with Peter Gabriel, he
said to me, Steve, I don't wantany symbols played on this
album, and all of a sudden, Iwent, Oh, no symbols, that means
I can really experiment with myambience, and my, and my, you
(47:42):
know, and all of a sudden, weinvented this whole new drum
sound that came out. And that'sbecame like the 80s drum sound,
purely because Peter Gabrielsaid, I don't want symbols on my
record, you know, one littlestatement of, of art being
limited and being brought down,you know, so, yeah, I'm always I
(48:04):
always like to try and putlimitations on. You know, we
would always back in those days.
Well, Sergeant Pepper's was madeon four track. And it's such a
varied record. You look atnowadays, you have unlimited
sound, and opportunities forrecording. Why does everything
sound the same? You know, it's,it's, it's a, it's a conundrum,
(48:25):
Roy.
Roy Sharples (48:30):
Your point about innocence Steve, is a damn good
one! One of our most fundamentallife needs is to create
creativity, as a corediscipline, like reading,
writing, and arithmetic. It isnot incidental, and nice to have
as a way of life. Pablo Picassobelieved all children are
(48:52):
artists, but they lose theircreativity when they grow up. So
grow into not out of creativity.
And don't give up the dreams ofyour childhood and your approach
to the world through a child'seyes. And to your point, Steve,
with without wonder and joy. Itisn't something lost with age,
but rather a skill we oftenneglect to practice. The
(49:14):
challenge is not learning newthings, as this will inevitably
happen as we explore, travel,learn and grow. Instead, the
challenge is keeping ourchildlike wonder and imagination
alive. And having the courage tocombine those things with our
new experiences and insight.
Steve Lillywhite (49:36):
Yeah, and going to the depths, I think
really dig into the depths needsa lot of effort. Now, technology
has stopped has somehow enabledus to get something in quotes,
good without the effort, youknow, and sometimes the effort
required is the is part of thecreative process. Whereas now if
(49:59):
you can just dial it In the bestdrum sound in the world, the
best this the best that thenare, you know, it's too easy?
Maybe that's the case, you know,effort requires a you know,
creativity requires? He doeswell look, say take my great
friends you too. You know, Adam,the bass player is is fantastic
(50:20):
one of my best friends in theworld. But you know, he would
say that, that his baselines aresometimes very simple. So what
they have to do is that theyhave to write a song that has a
baseline that goes bumbum,bumbum, bumbum, bumbum, bumbum,
bumbum, bumbum, bumbum bumbum?
You know, he can't he can't be afancy bass player. Anyway, there
you go.
Roy Sharples (50:40):
Of all the records you've produced? Which one do
you think about the most?
Steve Lillywhite (50:45):
I don't think about many of them very often.
But one thing that I do rememberwas that the big country had
been everyone, you know, it wasthey got signed post skids. And,
and they had a producer calledChris Thomas, who was like,
(51:07):
fantastic. Go in and work withthem. And it didn't work out
very well. And then all of asudden, the record company were
a little bit like, Oh, if ChrisThomas can't do it, we're a
little bit stuck. So they askedme to go in, and I produced a
song with them just a singlefirst to see how it went a song
called fields of fire. Yeah, andI always, and I always remember
(51:29):
finishing that song. And StuartAdamson, the singer and main guy
from big country, just being sofull of just listening to it and
going, Oh my God, that's thesound that I've been wanting,
you know, and it was any, and,and him going home that night
(51:50):
and writing in a big country.
Wow. And, you know, so, soprobably, to as a producer, you
know, that the greatest thing tobe able to do is to is to be
able to inspire someone to just,you know, to do something like
that. So I, you know, we're abig country I was so you know,
and I listened back to,especially some of the 12 inch
(52:12):
mixes, I did have some of thosesongs. There's a song called
Wonderland, you should listen tothe 12 remix of Wonderland.
It's, it's pretty out there. Imean, it's,
Roy Sharples (52:26):
This is gonna make me start listening to it
differently. I'm not just sayingthat right. But, um, and I've
listened a big company for avery long time. So they've
inspired me to do that.
Okay, next one; Artist you mostwant to produce but haven't
(yet)?
Steve Lillywhite (52:40):
Okay, well, this one will never happen
because David Bowie is dead. AndI'm, you know, I'm not sure what
it's all about timing ofpeople's careers. Yeah. Well,
you know, it's like, you know,would I want to produce Paul
McCartney now? No, I don't thinkI would. I don't think his voice
(53:02):
has sounded any good on anyrecord for the last 20 years.
But you know what, what I'veproduced wings are good. I loved
wings as much as nearly as muchas the Beatles, you know? Yeah.
There's some fantastic songsthere. So, yeah, I think David
Bowie, you know, was my artistalbum you wished you produced
but didn't hunky dory for me,you know, and it's funny. I went
(53:26):
back, it's 50 years since "HunkyDory" was released.
Roy Sharples (53:29):
It's ridiculous, isn't it?
Steve Lillywhite (53:30):
Yeah. I went back and I and I, and I was
reading about it. And it saidthat hunky dory and Ziggy
Stardust were recorded withinthree months of email. And I
thought, oh, which, which one isthe better album now? And I
listened to the two of them andI have to say, hunky dory far
(53:52):
exceeds Ziggy Stardust, ZiggyStardust was a little bit just
boring. You know, it's justhunky dory had the flowery piano
and miserable acoustics and thiswhole thing was Ziggy Stardust
was just like, you know, sort ofpower chords on it. Yeah, you're
absolutely right. And it'll bemore are a Wk you know,
(54:14):
admittedly with a sort ofstooges punky thing to it, but,
but still, it didn't last forme. It didn't last the test of
time, like hunky dory did, whichstill, for me, is just the most
amazing records of all time. Andalso, I mean, Joni Mitchell as
well, I think Joni is a greatartist.
Roy Sharples (54:35):
Totally! Most creative artist you've produced?
Steve Lillywhite (54:39):
Oh, most creative. Well, you've got I
would probably say you too, butbut but that's a combination of,
of create of, of someone likethe edge being, being very
creative, but sometimes a littlebit It's sort of dreary, and
(55:05):
Bono who is not so creative atall, but has the biggest
Napoleon complex. You know, Iknow he will say that. I mean,
he's, you know, you know, he'sknown as the little fella. Has
anyone seen the little fella?
But no, he is just so. Sodriven, you know, and, and his
(55:29):
heart is so big. So yeah, Ithink he's, you know, a great
band has, you know, it's notabout one of the things that
absolutely pisses me off. AndI've heard this from producers
over the years, who take greatpride in saying, Ah, you know, I
made that That album was a hit,but I had to sack the drummer.
(55:53):
Yeah, and it's, oh my god, maybethe drummer was the person who
formed the band, maybe thedrummer is the reason that the
band is good. It's not just adrumming. It's an ecosystem,
that that drummer is part of,you know, and very often this
producer who says I had to firethe drummer and the album's
(56:13):
ahead, but they never haveanother hit album. Because he
has pulled up art. He's taken alimb from that being, you know,
and who He Who am I to say that?
So if I think maybe the drummeris not good enough, but let's
face it nowadays, you know, withtime you can get a great
(56:36):
performance out of anyone. Idon't believe that. But if I
really did think I didn't likethe drummer enough, I just
wouldn't do the record. I youknow, your mind, who am I to
tell a band that their drummeris not good enough? When I when
that drummer look REM I lovedREM never had a hit record after
their drummer left. Yeah, theyhad the best session guys in the
(57:00):
world playing for them. But whoknows what the drummer so, you
know, I, you understand what I'msaying there, Roy Boy?
Roy Sharples (57:10):
I totally am Steve! The most underwhelming
production experience you'vehad?
Steve Lillywhite (57:16):
I don't think I ever did. Because part of my
job as a producer is to decideto do it in the first place.
That's a choice, you know,because once I'm in, I'm in
Yeah. And I am completely 100%responsible for that record.
Once I say I'll do it. So I haveto be absolutely sure that I can
(57:39):
do it. You know, so very rarelyhave I? You know, I haven't made
a great record every time I didan album with a girl singer
called Toya. Well, you know, tobe honest, I mean, as nice as
she was. I think the reason Idid it was because she was the
(58:00):
biggest female singer in Englandat the time. And and of course,
that's not the biggest reason todo someone's album. Yeah. So he,
it wasn't successful. And so,you know, I know that that my
choice to do your record is avery big production decision in
(58:22):
the first place. So I take thatas a very, I take that very
importantly.
Roy Sharples (58:27):
Who would be in your supergroup
guitarist, the basis that thekeyboard player and the drummer?
Steve Lillywhite (58:33):
Okay. I saw this question earlier and, and I
thought I would reverse itbecause someone said I saw one
of these silly things on theinternet that said, has anyone
realized that the only livingmembers of The Beatles are a
bass player? Only living membersof the Rolling Stones are a
(58:58):
singer and a guitar is what if,and I'm just thinking that would
probably be the worst band inthe world. Keith Richards, Paul
McCartney and Ringo Starr.
Roy Sharples (59:11):
As a singer, who would you choose between Jim
Kerr, Morrissey, Bono, or DavidByrne.
Steve Lillywhite (59:20):
Purely as a singer, I would say Bano because
you know Bono is Frank Sinatra.
There's no question. But I meanMorrissey is also Frank Sinatra.
He's a brilliant singer when hesings something he believes in.
He's a terrible singer if hesings his own lyrics that he
(59:40):
doesn't believe in, right aswell. So David Byrne, he's a
very creative man. There's noquestion about it. And Morrissey
is Morrissey is the weirdest manI've ever worked. I mean,
Morrissey just he doesn't lookat music the same way as a
(01:00:00):
musician does and that's awonderful thing. Yeah, he looks
at it completely as a...whoknows? Yeah. That can be for
another, podcast...
Roy Sharples (01:00:14):
For sure. The last one; the guitarist Johnny Marr,
The Edge or Charlie Burchill?
Steve Lillywhite (01:00:25):
Oh, they all do different roles. I mean, I
loved Charlie birchas guitarplaying purely because we'll say
that the difference betweenSimple Minds and YouTube in
general was that the SimpleMinds that was the best version
of Simple Minds was always ledby Derek Forbes, lead baselines.
(01:00:47):
I mean, if you if you promisedyour miracle today don't don't
after. I mean, fantastic. It wasnever really the guitar was sort
of dancing in the background.
And it was this wonderfulbaseline that was that was
leading the the phrase I loveCharlie for that now. Johnny
Marr, you know, a fantasticYeah, again, Johnny an edge,
(01:01:15):
very similar in that, that Iwould probably go for the edge.
Just because he the edge canspend a week looking for a sound
and the actual performing parthe can do in about three
minutes.
Roy Sharpl (01:01:36):
Wow. That's amazing.
Steve Lillywhite (01:01:37):
You know, I mean, it's, it's for him, it's
not. He very he virtually nevergets a plays a wrong note, or
anything like Johnny is is verycreative. And I but I haven't
worked with Johnny as much asAngel Charlie, you know, Johnny
was like always, he would comeand play on the beat on the
(01:01:58):
talking heads a bit with Kirsty.
I mean, we spent as much time injust coming around our house and
listening to records as I did inthe studio with him.
Roy Sharples (01:02:10):
Great, Steve, this has been fantastic, thank you so
much!
Steve Lillywhi (01:02:14):
Oh, my pleasure!
Roy Sharples (01:02:21):
Do you want to learn more about how to create
what I'm frontiers by unleashingyour creative power? Then
consider getting "CREATIVITYWITHOUT FRONTIERS: How to make
the invisible visible bylighting the way into the
future." It's available inprint, digital and audio on all
(01:02:43):
relevant book platforms. Youhave been listening to the
Unknown Origins podcast. Pleasefollow subscribe, rate and
review us. For more informationgo to unknownorigins.com Thank
you for listening.
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