January 11, 2022 • 30 mins
Tim Greenhalgh is the Chief Creative Officer at Landor & Fitch where he steers the creative direction globally for this brand transformation company.
Tim has been awarded for his work from the likes of LEGO, McLaren, and Harrods. He has also been a judge and advisor for many awards and industry bodies, including the DBA and D&AD’s International Advisory Board. Tim is listed as a Retail Design Luminary by design: retail and is also a course mentor on the BA for Interior Architecture & Design at the University for the Creative Arts (UCA).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Roy Sharples (00:06):
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown
origins podcast. Why are youlistening to this podcast? Are
you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert, looking for
insights, or growing yourcareer? I created the unknown
origins podcast to provideaccess to insights and content
(00:29):
from creators worldwide withinspirational conversations and
storytelling, about art,architecture, design,
entrepreneurship, fashion, film,music, and pop culture. Tim
greenhouse is the Chief CreativeOfficer of Londo, and Fitch,
where he steers his creativedirection globally. For this
(00:52):
brand transformation company.
Tim has been awarded for hiswork with the likes of Lego
McLaren and Harrods. He has alsobeen a judge and advisor for a
number of awards and industrybodies, including the DBA and
the D on a DS InternationalAdvisory Board. Tim is listed as
a retail design luminary bydesign, retail, and is also a
(01:16):
course mentor on the BA forInterior Architecture and Design
at the University of thecreative arts. Hello, and
welcome, Tim. So what inspiredand attracted you to a career in
branding within the creativeindustry in the first place?
Tim Greenhalgh (01:36):
I don't know if I ever really set out to do
branding, because you know, backwhen I was a boy, you know
brands existed, but the kind ofworld of brands probably wasn't
quite as, as sharply focused asit is, it is now. I mean, I, I
knew I wanted to do something inthe world of creativity. I
(01:56):
thought I wanted to do somethingin the world of art. But I did
this thing called a foundationcourse, which I think is
possibly, genuinely the happiestyear of my life, because it was
just like going back to thesandpit in terms of just being
able to play across manydifferent things, whether it's
fashion design, or printmakingor fine art, or it was just
(02:18):
wonderful. But typical of me, Icouldn't quite decide what I
wanted to do. And I thought Iwanted to do graphic design and
pottery. But actually, what Iended up doing was what was
called three dimensional designin Manchester, which was
glassblowing, furniture, jewelrydesign, and, and ceramics. Wow.
(02:40):
And loved it. But then, as I gottowards the end of my degree, I
realized that I probably didn'twant to be a potter. So I
decided that, that I would focusmuch more on my furniture. And
actually, I was lucky enough toget offered a scholarship to do
an MA, because I actually got ayoung designer of the year, not
(03:02):
the only one but one of theyoung designers of the year for
a table I design which was basedon Battersea Power Station. And
as I say I got a scholarship todo an MA at Manchester in
interior design, which I wasthrilled about. But they managed
to get me a job over the summerfor a company called fish. So I
went down, and it was justamazing. I was buying things
(03:23):
working for this business. And Isuppose that's the first time I
genuinely realized where designmet branding because we were
working for Debenhams, we wereworking for Midland Bank, which
later became HSBC and all thesedifferent companies. And so I
asked if I could actually have afull time job because I felt I
was learning more working forFitch and they did offer me a
(03:45):
job. Very quick aside, they thensaid, can I just quickly have a
holiday because I've not had aholiday since I finished my
degree show. They said yes, ofcourse. I went away to Spain for
a week, came back was so excitedabout the job I had. But I went
straight from Victoria Station,having gone back to Gatwick
Airport, straight into thestudio in Soho. hadn't even
(04:07):
dropped my bags off and justsuddenly couldn't find my desk
and said, Where's my desk? Andthey said, well, actually, did
you not get the letter? And Isaid sorry. They say, well,
actually, we had to let you goto the project. He said, But
you're here now. Sit down, geton with something and when you
get home tonight rip the letterup. So if I'd gone home anyway,
(04:28):
so Wow. Yeah, amazing. So Iguess is the name of the game.
Anyway, but you know, the thingabout Fitch The thing about my
career has been the thing I'veenjoyed the most I suppose hence
the reason for that long storywas just, I love a
multidisciplinary world. And ifyou think about where brands are
(04:50):
today, they are everything fromwebsites to apps to spaces to
events to films to storytelling.
Yeah. Which is entirely playedinto the thing that I find the
most interesting about howdesign can make a difference is
it's looking at thatmultidisciplinary way in which
brands can show up in people'slives.
Roy Sharples (05:09):
Tim, your taste is excellent. The architectural and
design marvel of industrialBritain and its magnificent art
deco style is Battersea PowerStation, which dominated the
London skyline for generations,and was an endless source of
inspiration for many music,videos, films, and television
(05:30):
programs. were inspired you tocome up with that
Tim Greenhalgh (05:34):
I was trying a lot of different things. And my
tutor is said to be aboutbecause I was I was more drawn
to the kind of the architecturalside yeah, design. I guess I was
satisfying my craft by a throughmy glassblowing. And through my
ceramics, but when it came tofurniture, was heavily
influenced by a lot of Italiandesigners. And also a lot of
(05:55):
architects who had quitenaturally and often very
typically develop the furnituredesign themselves. So he
suggested I looked at the way inwhich I could use machines to
create pattern and also tocreate interesting furniture. So
the power station, if you lookat those, the the actual tear of
the actual columns of the powerstation, yeah, the detail, the
(06:18):
Art Deco detail in those columnsis unbelievable. So I was
actually able to recreate thatusing routers and machinery in
the workshop. And so that'sreally what inspired it. Plus,
as you've already said, I spentquite a lot of time just looking
at the it is if you look at thepower station, it is an absolute
(06:41):
proportion for any kind of atable. Yeah, so in fact, I think
it has been agreed referencethat that before as the upside
down table.
Roy Sharples (06:49):
An upside down billard table?
Tim Greenhalgh (06:53):
its way up. So it was the four columns with the
chimneys within a a glass, aglass top and yeah, Margaret
Thatcher's saw it at my show andasked me if she could have it
for the hallway at number 10Downing Street. It's not right.
Yeah. Wow. I think she was justbeing polite.
Roy Sharples (07:14):
When did you first get the inclination that you are
creative?
Tim Greenhalgh (07:18):
I mean, ever since a child, all I done was
really apart from sport. Wow,was was drawing I just spent my
entire time job was the thingthat was kind of my happy place.
Yeah. So as I say, my parentshad friends who were artists.
And I just used to love spendingtime with them watching what
(07:38):
they were doing and things. Mymom was an actress as well as a
director. So I spent a lot oftime in my early years painting
set building sets for theaterproductions and stuff. So that
was was fascinating. But Ithink, as I say, I did the
foundation course, RPG of mylife. I studied the various
(07:58):
things I said, but I think itwas the first time when I
actually presented to a clientand the client at a relatively
young age and the client seemedrather engaged, or rather
compelled to go with mysuggestion that I suddenly
realize that maybe at thispoint, now I'm starting to
become creative. Yeah. Because,you know, I make a differences,
(08:21):
as I think it's important to dobetween being an artist and
being a designer. Yeah, I thinkwe're the designer, you know,
we're producing, producingstuff, something for somebody
else. Yes. And that's not to saythat artists don't, but they
live more within their ownheads, and they're producing
things for themselves that theyhope the outside world will
appreciate. Whereas with design,I think what we do has an end
(08:42):
use. And I think, you know, oneof the things I've always said
is that part of our jobs ascreatives and designers, is to
get a client to say maybe ratherthan No. And what I mean by that
is because of what we do, welive in a dark world, we live in
the magic arts of creativity andideas. It's very subjective. And
(09:03):
I think sometimes we can be wecan do things that make our
clients quite nervous. Butequally, and their instinct will
be to say, no, that will work.
Whereas our job is to make sureclients understand how it could
work, how it could make theworld their brand, their
products, their offer better.
And I think that's the truecreativity, which is to not just
(09:24):
be able to draw something that'samazing, but to get somebody to
understand it, and agree to
Roy Sharples (09:30):
Yes, in that context, creativity is new ideas
that have a use commercial andsocietal value. That's also a
fair general description of anartist and designer, whereas the
artist in general designs forthemselves by their own
individual sense of the stakesand the the outcome, whereas
(09:51):
designers tend to design forpeople and the practical use of
what they're designing for, andhow to end apt, they're designed
to appeal to others, notnecessarily the themselves. So
Tim, what what is your creativeprocess in terms of? How do you
make the invisible visible bydreaming up ideas, developing
(10:13):
them into concepts, and thenbringing them to actualization?
Tim Greenhalgh (10:19):
So how do you bring ideas to life is, you
know, is a very interestingquestion. I think. I think the
the, the thing that I realizedvery quickly was, of course,
you're given a brief. Unless youare creating something purely
from scratch, which very rarelyhappens. I have always been
(10:43):
taught that it's reallyimportant to, to understand who
you are designing for. Yeah. Andactually, I find that the most
fascinating about, excuse me,spending time, understanding who
the customer is, what theirambitions are, what their needs
are, what their wants are, whattheir dreams are. And then
starting to think through theireyes as to how best to produce
(11:07):
an idea. The next stage, Ithink, would then be to, to
understand the convention ofwhat you're designing. And I say
that really passionately.
Because I think that anycreative, any designer can't
look to challenge a conventionunless they've truly understood
the convention. Exactly. Yes.
And respected it. Becauseotherwise, that's just anarchy,
(11:30):
you're just being punkish. Yes,rather than questioning and
challenging. And so I think tounderstand the dynamic of a GOP
convention, can you as I'vealready said, Can you only then
truly sit down, and thenchallenge that convention, and
that is something through myformative years that I was
taught to do, which was not tojust draw my way out of a paper
(11:54):
bag, but to think about where toput people back to, to sit down
and to look at something andwrite spend more time writing in
the early stages of things thatcome to mind in terms of things
that are typical, how we mightbe challenged. And then the
other thing that we've alwaysdone, and I've always totally
done quite successful, becauseI've always been a great
(12:15):
proponent of this idea of boldthinking, is to is to not look
for the answer, as it werealmost right next door to where
you're sitting to really look inother places first. Because I
think it's often the out ofcategories where you find the
more interesting, moreinteresting ideas. So, again,
(12:36):
I'm hope I'm answering yourquestion in that, I think,
understand the customer.
Understand the convention sothat you can challenge the
convention, and then look forinspiration. I'm not abashed or
embarrassed to say, youshouldn't be looking for
inspiration by but the otherother work that's been done, I
mean, the final answer the trueanswer to your question, I
(12:57):
think, however, as I'm talkingthis through, and it's one of
those questions that it'sgetting me to always think about
it myself in a way I haven'tmaybe done for a while is, is.
And I've always say this to alot of young designers when they
start with us is, please,whatever you do, don't lose your
curiosity. Yeah. Because I thinkI think that to me, and that
(13:20):
kind of sense of enthusiasm,that sense of wonder, that sense
of wanting to learn constantly,to me is what has kept me still
really excited about coloring inbecause that's what I do, from
Roy Sharples (13:36):
Your point about anarchy and being punkish. In
that context. Yes, you have toknow enough about something to
reject conventions by constantlyanalyzing, questioning, and
challenging the status quo byproviding an alternative as an
improved solution.
Tim Greenhalgh (13:54):
I remember I mean, I remember we were working
for a really large business inHong Kong who wanted to launch
this new or improve theirsupermarket chain big
supermarket, run by people XTescos. X as direct Sainsbury's,
your expats working in HongKong. And the only way for us to
understand about how Chinesepeople both shop and eat was for
(14:15):
us to spend time in wet markets.
Yes, and the most fascinatingplaces in the world. Yeah, you
know, to understand that, unlikea British consumer, you know,
people in China and Hong Kongshopping three times a day
because they always want thefreshest product they can get.
So you know, they don't have bigladders. They don't have big
storms. I digress to make apoint, which is if we hadn't
(14:38):
spent time in these wet marketsif we hadn't watched how these
people eat, and if we hadn'treally understood how they would
appreciate a more modern, maybeslightly more Western
experience, as opposed to justgiving them what we've always
designed in the UK. I don'tthink we'd have come up with As
good a solution as we did,because it was the beauty of
(15:00):
West meat East meets West. Yeah.
And actually came up with asolution we came up with, which
was, which was fascinating.
Roy Sharples (15:10):
Yeah, that research led approach that
applies ethnographic andanthropological techniques and
tools that encompass observingpeople's behaviors and their
natural situations to capturewhat they do. And this approach
helps understand the culturaltrends and lifestyle factors
through context, norms, routine,and the daily life habits within
(15:34):
communities and societies. In away, it's a little bit like
method Octan, which was adoptedby actors like Marlon Brando,
Alpecin, Robert De Niro, and,and Daniel Day Lewis to
emotionally self identify withthe character and fully immerse
themselves in a role. So to givean example of that, Daniel Day,
(15:55):
Lewis infamously prepared forhis roles in excruciating detail
by experiencing the lives andfeelings of the characters he
played, often going to extremededication. So for example, he
learned how to write and paintwith his feet, and spent weeks
and a clinic to deeply connectwith the condition of cerebral
(16:17):
palsy when you did the roll inmy left foot. So my point is,
you can never do that, fromhypothesis and remote research,
like using the internet, youhave to experience it
physically, by doing it.
Tim Greenhalgh (16:30):
Exactly! And I think that when you know, when
you work in a business that is,like landour, and Fitch, where a
lot of our work is just pureexpression. So it's how a brand
expresses itself visually and inkind of more through the graphic
arts. Or equally, how you cowerbrown crease and experience, you
know, both of those requires,you've just said, to use some
(16:52):
kind of a method of approach,which is to truly understand
what it is like to be acustomer, trying to buy a pair
of training shoes or wanting itto be a customer who wants to
start a new skin regime. Sothey're, they're looking for the
best beauty brand to work withor to get involved with. And we
have to understand that we did agreat piece of research for a
(17:14):
sportswear brand, where theywere trying to understand Gen
Zed consumers. And so webasically, we basically didn't
live with them. But when theycame in, they did workshops with
them, we asked them to keepdiaries, you know, that class
plastic ethnographic research,yeah. But the things we found
out, which completely turnedaround some of the precondition
(17:35):
to the pre thought that we hadwas, you know, they don't
particularly like shopping, theydon't particularly look up when
they go into stores, they hatebeing approached by staff. They
don't really read the signage,and they'd much rather shop
through their mobile phone. Imean, you know, we were like,
we'd come up with all theseideas prior to this have amazing
(17:57):
signage and videos, and it wouldjust always debunked by totally.
And the other one was that wefound that which was a phrase
that there's live with us for awhile, which is that these
people, these people listen toGen Z consumers, are in a
constant state of partialattention, which was just the
best creative brief we've everhad. Because actually, I look at
(18:18):
my own sons, who are now 2021and 19. And used to think that
they just were not listening tome and my wife we were talking
to, because they were constantlystaring at their phones. But
they were absolutely payingattention. Yeah, they knew they
know exactly what's going on.
It's just we have to design in adifferent way for these people.
And it was just brilliant.
(18:40):
Absolutely brilliant.
Roy Sharples (18:41):
What are the critical skills needed to
survive and thrive? As acreative leader? In branding?
And organizations?
Tim Greenhalgh (18:50):
I think you can never lose your curiosity. You
can never assume you know theanswer without firstly, really
interrogating the convention andunderstanding what it is you're
designing. But then I thinkthere's the other aspect, which
is, which is, you know, I mighthave been a little bit jealously
(19:11):
guarding of my own, you know, myown projection through a career
path and all that kind of stuff.
But I suppose after a while, youthen start to do which I think
is absolutely right, which isyou start to recognize, actually
other talent and actuallypromote other talent. Because I
can't be the oldest ponytail intown or don't want to be the
(19:34):
oldest ponytail. I have, to somepoint, fulfill the second half
of my job title, which isdirector. Yeah. Yes. I'm a
creative director. Yes, I canstill draw. Yes, hopefully, I
can still have a good idea. Butto my mind is actually, to
answer your question is to,actually and this is probably
(19:55):
what I spend more of my timedoing, than actually drawing you
I'd love drawing is creating aculture that encourages bold
thinking, going back to thatphrase, and it's the culture
side of it, where people feelthat they have the right to come
up with a stupid idea. Speakopenly in meetings, not be
(20:17):
afraid of being, you know,patronized, or, or looked down
upon, you know, and you know, itis that kind of classic, any
idea is a good idea. At thebeginning, you just have to make
sure it's a brilliant idea bythe end. So I think from my
point of view, it's, it'skeeping that enthusiasm, keeping
(20:39):
that curiosity and making surethat, that we don't we just we,
we, we, the culture, thecreative culture is one of, as I
say, boldness, curiosity, and,and, and agitated I think.
Roy Sharples (20:54):
Creating and curating a culture where people
feel empowered, free, and safe,to express themselves and create
without fear, where peopleapproach ideation and problem
solving openly and innovatively.
By trying out new ideas and waysof thinking, and doing.
Tim Greenhalgh (21:12):
We're all human beings. I mean, I think, you
know, we're all guilty at timesof complacency, of arrogance of
conceitedness, and all that typeof stuff. I think what's
interesting, and what I'vealways enjoyed about where I've
worked, particularly, Fitch, butalso a camera, when I worked
with camera was they werewonderful breeding grounds for
(21:34):
young talent that actually thegraduate program the new, like,
my wasn't the beginning, newstudents coming in, actually
keeps the energy and the cultureof the business going. So you
know, you may be 10 years intoyour career, and you may have
recent dizzy heights and had nopromotions every year. But
suddenly, this young hotshotcomes in from a young college,
(21:56):
who's 22 years old andcompletely changes the way you
think about how you'redesigning. To my mind, that's
fast, the exciting part of whatwe do that is always still feels
like being a college!
Roy Sharples (22:08):
Right! Embracing originality and making unique
connections between disparateuniverses to define the future.
And by having an insatiablefeeling of you never know
enough, and are always in theconstant search for that
trigger, to generate newexperiences and inspiration that
(22:30):
fuel your imagination, andhaving that childlike wonder and
curiosity and approaching theworld through the innocence of a
child's eyes.
Tim, I should reflect upon yourcareer to date, what are your
lessons learned, in terms of thepitfalls to avoid, and the keys
to success that you can sharewith existing and aspiring
(22:54):
creative directors?
Tim Greenhalgh (22:55):
It probably goes without saying that every
designer I've ever met, isconstantly frustrated, never
happy with what they've done. Ialways think they could have
done it better. And I thinkthat's a wonderful attribute to
have. Yeah. Because I thinkgoing back to them word
complacency. You know, I think apitfall would be too to assume
(23:19):
you've arrived, and you've,you've got, you've got to the
destination. And I That worriesme, you know, i i the energy to
be constantly looking for newideas, is the thing you've
really got to keep alive. AndI'm keeping a level of naivety.
(23:40):
Yeah, I mean, I'm 57 years old,I've been working in this
industry for 34 years. Whocares? I mean, really, who
cares? If I can't come up withan original idea, if I can't
come up with an idea, the gueststhe room, whether that's an
internal audience or a clientaudience, that kind of getting
into the room excited, thendoesn't matter how much
(24:01):
experience I've got, I've justbecome dull, right? I've become
dull, because I'm not I've lostthe enthusiasm. I've lost the
curiosity. There's that wordagain. So I think, I mean, as
you asked me about whetherthat's a pitfall and I've got to
be careful that I'm not in anyway accusing anybody of being
those things. I just think it issomething that we all should be
(24:24):
mindful of. Yeah, whatevercareer we're in about, about
just about complacency. And Ithink, I think that's an
interesting one. And I thinkthat and I am gonna, I'm sorry,
I'm starting to sound like abroken record now. The world is
changing faster and faster allthe time. Nobody expects me at
(24:45):
my age to be the latest ticktock wizard. Couldn't just me,
but my curiosity needs to be ofa level where it's not an alien
concept to me that I canunderstand. Because I think our
curiosity again There'ssomething that will only
contribute to fueling new,interesting, groundbreaking
(25:05):
ideas. And with so much that'sgoing on at the moment. I mean,
I'm fascinated. I don't know ifyou've spent much time looking
at the kind of stuff that ElonMusk is doing around open AI.
Yeah. Oh, my God. Justfantastic. is scary. I don't
know if I know enough about ityet. I've been looking at it
quite a lot recently. But Ithink the whole the whole, if
(25:27):
you can say it can happen idea.
Yeah. It's fascinating.
Absolutely. But then it gets meto think about what does that
mean for 21st century design?
Well, I think he's got a lot ofexciting possibilities. It just
means that you know, being ableto use Photoshop may not be your
ultimate attribute in the next10 years. Yeah, because that
might be done by, by analgorithm.
Roy Sharples (25:48):
Great points. Tim.
Creativity will continue to bethe difference humans make in
the future. Yes, intelligenttechnologies can increasingly
expedite the majority of roles ahuman can. But the future
workplace is where humans willwork in unison with artificial
intelligence or thetechnological equivalent. Robots
have multiplied productivity andreplaced humans in many work
(26:12):
lines, freeing up humans toperform more creative and self
fulfilling roles that have yetto be defined, which makes it
even more exciting. What's yourvision for the future of the
creative industry and the roleof creativity?
Tim Greenhalgh (26:30):
So I think that's going to be around
fluidity. You know, I am askingmy Executive Creative Directors
and creative directors, andasking them to be nonspecific,
increasingly nonspecific. Whatdo I mean by that? Yes, they may
have come up through thebusiness has been the best
graphic designers, the bestinterior designers, the best web
(26:52):
designers, but now as creativedirectors, and now as leaders
who are directing creativity, ina far more dynamic world that we
live in, I want them to bewildly conceptual. And that
actually what I'm looking for,and I think what we are going to
see a lot more of these days, isthat the idea will be the thing
(27:15):
that carries much creativitythrough now, is that new? Well,
of course, that's not new. Doesit have a greater resonance
these days? I think so. I thinkthat, with so much that's
happening in the world, and somuch need for both brands to
communicate clearly. And for theaudience to understand really,
the power of the idea and thepower of storytelling is going
(27:36):
to be really, really important.
And I think that, that, youknow, one of the things I've
been looking at is, and I'vebeen talking to some friends of
mine who work in the educationindustry is to what extent that
might be a rethinking of thecurriculum. And some of the
universities, you know, thisidea that we should be
encouraging as much criticalthinking, education, as we are
(27:57):
practical skills, education. Butultimately, I think I'll go back
to where I started to just say,I think that I'm encouraging my
team, the people I work with tobe far more fluid in their
approach. And I love that word.
I think it's a it's a word tohold on to in terms of in terms
(28:18):
of how they haven't come up withtheir conceptual ideas.
Roy Sharples (28:21):
Yes. Your point on instilling creativity, as a core
discipline at the grassroots ofthe education curriculum, so
that it's nurtured throughoutthe education system, which
recognizes intelligence asmultifaceted by embracing
emotional and socialintelligence, critical thinking,
(28:43):
and practical problem solving byintegrating science, arts and
humanities as equal parts of thelearning jigsaw. Just how soon
is the future? One thing forsure, the future is unwritten,
and everything is possible.
(29:06):
Do you want to learn more abouthow to create by frontiers by
unleashing your creative power?
Then consider getting CREATIVITYWITHOUT FRONTIERS? How to make
the invisible visible bylighting the way into the
future. It's available in print,digital and audio on all
relevant book platforms. Youhave been listening to the
(29:30):
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you for listening!
Hello, I'm Roy Sharples, welcome to the unknown
origins podcast. Why are youlistening to this podcast? Are
you seeking inspiration? anindustry expert, looking for
insights, or growing yourcareer? I created the unknown
origins podcast to provideaccess to insights and content
(00:29):
from creators worldwide withinspirational conversations and
storytelling, about art,architecture, design,
entrepreneurship, fashion, film,music, and pop culture. Tim
greenhouse is the Chief CreativeOfficer of Londo, and Fitch,
where he steers his creativedirection globally. For this
(00:52):
brand transformation company.
Tim has been awarded for hiswork with the likes of Lego
McLaren and Harrods. He has alsobeen a judge and advisor for a
number of awards and industrybodies, including the DBA and
the D on a DS InternationalAdvisory Board. Tim is listed as
a retail design luminary bydesign, retail, and is also a
(01:16):
course mentor on the BA forInterior Architecture and Design
at the University of thecreative arts. Hello, and
welcome, Tim. So what inspiredand attracted you to a career in
branding within the creativeindustry in the first place?
Tim Greenhalgh (01:36):
I don't know if I ever really set out to do
branding, because you know, backwhen I was a boy, you know
brands existed, but the kind ofworld of brands probably wasn't
quite as, as sharply focused asit is, it is now. I mean, I, I
knew I wanted to do something inthe world of creativity. I
(01:56):
thought I wanted to do somethingin the world of art. But I did
this thing called a foundationcourse, which I think is
possibly, genuinely the happiestyear of my life, because it was
just like going back to thesandpit in terms of just being
able to play across manydifferent things, whether it's
fashion design, or printmakingor fine art, or it was just
(02:18):
wonderful. But typical of me, Icouldn't quite decide what I
wanted to do. And I thought Iwanted to do graphic design and
pottery. But actually, what Iended up doing was what was
called three dimensional designin Manchester, which was
glassblowing, furniture, jewelrydesign, and, and ceramics. Wow.
(02:40):
And loved it. But then, as I gottowards the end of my degree, I
realized that I probably didn'twant to be a potter. So I
decided that, that I would focusmuch more on my furniture. And
actually, I was lucky enough toget offered a scholarship to do
an MA, because I actually got ayoung designer of the year, not
(03:02):
the only one but one of theyoung designers of the year for
a table I design which was basedon Battersea Power Station. And
as I say I got a scholarship todo an MA at Manchester in
interior design, which I wasthrilled about. But they managed
to get me a job over the summerfor a company called fish. So I
went down, and it was justamazing. I was buying things
(03:23):
working for this business. And Isuppose that's the first time I
genuinely realized where designmet branding because we were
working for Debenhams, we wereworking for Midland Bank, which
later became HSBC and all thesedifferent companies. And so I
asked if I could actually have afull time job because I felt I
was learning more working forFitch and they did offer me a
(03:45):
job. Very quick aside, they thensaid, can I just quickly have a
holiday because I've not had aholiday since I finished my
degree show. They said yes, ofcourse. I went away to Spain for
a week, came back was so excitedabout the job I had. But I went
straight from Victoria Station,having gone back to Gatwick
Airport, straight into thestudio in Soho. hadn't even
(04:07):
dropped my bags off and justsuddenly couldn't find my desk
and said, Where's my desk? Andthey said, well, actually, did
you not get the letter? And Isaid sorry. They say, well,
actually, we had to let you goto the project. He said, But
you're here now. Sit down, geton with something and when you
get home tonight rip the letterup. So if I'd gone home anyway,
(04:28):
so Wow. Yeah, amazing. So Iguess is the name of the game.
Anyway, but you know, the thingabout Fitch The thing about my
career has been the thing I'veenjoyed the most I suppose hence
the reason for that long storywas just, I love a
multidisciplinary world. And ifyou think about where brands are
(04:50):
today, they are everything fromwebsites to apps to spaces to
events to films to storytelling.
Yeah. Which is entirely playedinto the thing that I find the
most interesting about howdesign can make a difference is
it's looking at thatmultidisciplinary way in which
brands can show up in people'slives.
Roy Sharples (05:09):
Tim, your taste is excellent. The architectural and
design marvel of industrialBritain and its magnificent art
deco style is Battersea PowerStation, which dominated the
London skyline for generations,and was an endless source of
inspiration for many music,videos, films, and television
(05:30):
programs. were inspired you tocome up with that
Tim Greenhalgh (05:34):
I was trying a lot of different things. And my
tutor is said to be aboutbecause I was I was more drawn
to the kind of the architecturalside yeah, design. I guess I was
satisfying my craft by a throughmy glassblowing. And through my
ceramics, but when it came tofurniture, was heavily
influenced by a lot of Italiandesigners. And also a lot of
(05:55):
architects who had quitenaturally and often very
typically develop the furnituredesign themselves. So he
suggested I looked at the way inwhich I could use machines to
create pattern and also tocreate interesting furniture. So
the power station, if you lookat those, the the actual tear of
the actual columns of the powerstation, yeah, the detail, the
(06:18):
Art Deco detail in those columnsis unbelievable. So I was
actually able to recreate thatusing routers and machinery in
the workshop. And so that'sreally what inspired it. Plus,
as you've already said, I spentquite a lot of time just looking
at the it is if you look at thepower station, it is an absolute
(06:41):
proportion for any kind of atable. Yeah, so in fact, I think
it has been agreed referencethat that before as the upside
down table.
Roy Sharples (06:49):
An upside down billard table?
Tim Greenhalgh (06:53):
its way up. So it was the four columns with the
chimneys within a a glass, aglass top and yeah, Margaret
Thatcher's saw it at my show andasked me if she could have it
for the hallway at number 10Downing Street. It's not right.
Yeah. Wow. I think she was justbeing polite.
Roy Sharples (07:14):
When did you first get the inclination that you are
creative?
Tim Greenhalgh (07:18):
I mean, ever since a child, all I done was
really apart from sport. Wow,was was drawing I just spent my
entire time job was the thingthat was kind of my happy place.
Yeah. So as I say, my parentshad friends who were artists.
And I just used to love spendingtime with them watching what
(07:38):
they were doing and things. Mymom was an actress as well as a
director. So I spent a lot oftime in my early years painting
set building sets for theaterproductions and stuff. So that
was was fascinating. But Ithink, as I say, I did the
foundation course, RPG of mylife. I studied the various
(07:58):
things I said, but I think itwas the first time when I
actually presented to a clientand the client at a relatively
young age and the client seemedrather engaged, or rather
compelled to go with mysuggestion that I suddenly
realize that maybe at thispoint, now I'm starting to
become creative. Yeah. Because,you know, I make a differences,
(08:21):
as I think it's important to dobetween being an artist and
being a designer. Yeah, I thinkwe're the designer, you know,
we're producing, producingstuff, something for somebody
else. Yes. And that's not to saythat artists don't, but they
live more within their ownheads, and they're producing
things for themselves that theyhope the outside world will
appreciate. Whereas with design,I think what we do has an end
(08:42):
use. And I think, you know, oneof the things I've always said
is that part of our jobs ascreatives and designers, is to
get a client to say maybe ratherthan No. And what I mean by that
is because of what we do, welive in a dark world, we live in
the magic arts of creativity andideas. It's very subjective. And
(09:03):
I think sometimes we can be wecan do things that make our
clients quite nervous. Butequally, and their instinct will
be to say, no, that will work.
Whereas our job is to make sureclients understand how it could
work, how it could make theworld their brand, their
products, their offer better.
And I think that's the truecreativity, which is to not just
(09:24):
be able to draw something that'samazing, but to get somebody to
understand it, and agree to
Roy Sharples (09:30):
Yes, in that context, creativity is new ideas
that have a use commercial andsocietal value. That's also a
fair general description of anartist and designer, whereas the
artist in general designs forthemselves by their own
individual sense of the stakesand the the outcome, whereas
(09:51):
designers tend to design forpeople and the practical use of
what they're designing for, andhow to end apt, they're designed
to appeal to others, notnecessarily the themselves. So
Tim, what what is your creativeprocess in terms of? How do you
make the invisible visible bydreaming up ideas, developing
(10:13):
them into concepts, and thenbringing them to actualization?
Tim Greenhalgh (10:19):
So how do you bring ideas to life is, you
know, is a very interestingquestion. I think. I think the
the, the thing that I realizedvery quickly was, of course,
you're given a brief. Unless youare creating something purely
from scratch, which very rarelyhappens. I have always been
(10:43):
taught that it's reallyimportant to, to understand who
you are designing for. Yeah. Andactually, I find that the most
fascinating about, excuse me,spending time, understanding who
the customer is, what theirambitions are, what their needs
are, what their wants are, whattheir dreams are. And then
starting to think through theireyes as to how best to produce
(11:07):
an idea. The next stage, Ithink, would then be to, to
understand the convention ofwhat you're designing. And I say
that really passionately.
Because I think that anycreative, any designer can't
look to challenge a conventionunless they've truly understood
the convention. Exactly. Yes.
And respected it. Becauseotherwise, that's just anarchy,
(11:30):
you're just being punkish. Yes,rather than questioning and
challenging. And so I think tounderstand the dynamic of a GOP
convention, can you as I'vealready said, Can you only then
truly sit down, and thenchallenge that convention, and
that is something through myformative years that I was
taught to do, which was not tojust draw my way out of a paper
(11:54):
bag, but to think about where toput people back to, to sit down
and to look at something andwrite spend more time writing in
the early stages of things thatcome to mind in terms of things
that are typical, how we mightbe challenged. And then the
other thing that we've alwaysdone, and I've always totally
done quite successful, becauseI've always been a great
(12:15):
proponent of this idea of boldthinking, is to is to not look
for the answer, as it werealmost right next door to where
you're sitting to really look inother places first. Because I
think it's often the out ofcategories where you find the
more interesting, moreinteresting ideas. So, again,
(12:36):
I'm hope I'm answering yourquestion in that, I think,
understand the customer.
Understand the convention sothat you can challenge the
convention, and then look forinspiration. I'm not abashed or
embarrassed to say, youshouldn't be looking for
inspiration by but the otherother work that's been done, I
mean, the final answer the trueanswer to your question, I
(12:57):
think, however, as I'm talkingthis through, and it's one of
those questions that it'sgetting me to always think about
it myself in a way I haven'tmaybe done for a while is, is.
And I've always say this to alot of young designers when they
start with us is, please,whatever you do, don't lose your
curiosity. Yeah. Because I thinkI think that to me, and that
(13:20):
kind of sense of enthusiasm,that sense of wonder, that sense
of wanting to learn constantly,to me is what has kept me still
really excited about coloring inbecause that's what I do, from
Roy Sharples (13:36):
Your point about anarchy and being punkish. In
that context. Yes, you have toknow enough about something to
reject conventions by constantlyanalyzing, questioning, and
challenging the status quo byproviding an alternative as an
improved solution.
Tim Greenhalgh (13:54):
I remember I mean, I remember we were working
for a really large business inHong Kong who wanted to launch
this new or improve theirsupermarket chain big
supermarket, run by people XTescos. X as direct Sainsbury's,
your expats working in HongKong. And the only way for us to
understand about how Chinesepeople both shop and eat was for
(14:15):
us to spend time in wet markets.
Yes, and the most fascinatingplaces in the world. Yeah, you
know, to understand that, unlikea British consumer, you know,
people in China and Hong Kongshopping three times a day
because they always want thefreshest product they can get.
So you know, they don't have bigladders. They don't have big
storms. I digress to make apoint, which is if we hadn't
(14:38):
spent time in these wet marketsif we hadn't watched how these
people eat, and if we hadn'treally understood how they would
appreciate a more modern, maybeslightly more Western
experience, as opposed to justgiving them what we've always
designed in the UK. I don'tthink we'd have come up with As
good a solution as we did,because it was the beauty of
(15:00):
West meat East meets West. Yeah.
And actually came up with asolution we came up with, which
was, which was fascinating.
Roy Sharples (15:10):
Yeah, that research led approach that
applies ethnographic andanthropological techniques and
tools that encompass observingpeople's behaviors and their
natural situations to capturewhat they do. And this approach
helps understand the culturaltrends and lifestyle factors
through context, norms, routine,and the daily life habits within
(15:34):
communities and societies. In away, it's a little bit like
method Octan, which was adoptedby actors like Marlon Brando,
Alpecin, Robert De Niro, and,and Daniel Day Lewis to
emotionally self identify withthe character and fully immerse
themselves in a role. So to givean example of that, Daniel Day,
(15:55):
Lewis infamously prepared forhis roles in excruciating detail
by experiencing the lives andfeelings of the characters he
played, often going to extremededication. So for example, he
learned how to write and paintwith his feet, and spent weeks
and a clinic to deeply connectwith the condition of cerebral
(16:17):
palsy when you did the roll inmy left foot. So my point is,
you can never do that, fromhypothesis and remote research,
like using the internet, youhave to experience it
physically, by doing it.
Tim Greenhalgh (16:30):
Exactly! And I think that when you know, when
you work in a business that is,like landour, and Fitch, where a
lot of our work is just pureexpression. So it's how a brand
expresses itself visually and inkind of more through the graphic
arts. Or equally, how you cowerbrown crease and experience, you
know, both of those requires,you've just said, to use some
(16:52):
kind of a method of approach,which is to truly understand
what it is like to be acustomer, trying to buy a pair
of training shoes or wanting itto be a customer who wants to
start a new skin regime. Sothey're, they're looking for the
best beauty brand to work withor to get involved with. And we
have to understand that we did agreat piece of research for a
(17:14):
sportswear brand, where theywere trying to understand Gen
Zed consumers. And so webasically, we basically didn't
live with them. But when theycame in, they did workshops with
them, we asked them to keepdiaries, you know, that class
plastic ethnographic research,yeah. But the things we found
out, which completely turnedaround some of the precondition
(17:35):
to the pre thought that we hadwas, you know, they don't
particularly like shopping, theydon't particularly look up when
they go into stores, they hatebeing approached by staff. They
don't really read the signage,and they'd much rather shop
through their mobile phone. Imean, you know, we were like,
we'd come up with all theseideas prior to this have amazing
(17:57):
signage and videos, and it wouldjust always debunked by totally.
And the other one was that wefound that which was a phrase
that there's live with us for awhile, which is that these
people, these people listen toGen Z consumers, are in a
constant state of partialattention, which was just the
best creative brief we've everhad. Because actually, I look at
(18:18):
my own sons, who are now 2021and 19. And used to think that
they just were not listening tome and my wife we were talking
to, because they were constantlystaring at their phones. But
they were absolutely payingattention. Yeah, they knew they
know exactly what's going on.
It's just we have to design in adifferent way for these people.
And it was just brilliant.
(18:40):
Absolutely brilliant.
Roy Sharples (18:41):
What are the critical skills needed to
survive and thrive? As acreative leader? In branding?
And organizations?
Tim Greenhalgh (18:50):
I think you can never lose your curiosity. You
can never assume you know theanswer without firstly, really
interrogating the convention andunderstanding what it is you're
designing. But then I thinkthere's the other aspect, which
is, which is, you know, I mighthave been a little bit jealously
(19:11):
guarding of my own, you know, myown projection through a career
path and all that kind of stuff.
But I suppose after a while, youthen start to do which I think
is absolutely right, which isyou start to recognize, actually
other talent and actuallypromote other talent. Because I
can't be the oldest ponytail intown or don't want to be the
(19:34):
oldest ponytail. I have, to somepoint, fulfill the second half
of my job title, which isdirector. Yeah. Yes. I'm a
creative director. Yes, I canstill draw. Yes, hopefully, I
can still have a good idea. Butto my mind is actually, to
answer your question is to,actually and this is probably
(19:55):
what I spend more of my timedoing, than actually drawing you
I'd love drawing is creating aculture that encourages bold
thinking, going back to thatphrase, and it's the culture
side of it, where people feelthat they have the right to come
up with a stupid idea. Speakopenly in meetings, not be
(20:17):
afraid of being, you know,patronized, or, or looked down
upon, you know, and you know, itis that kind of classic, any
idea is a good idea. At thebeginning, you just have to make
sure it's a brilliant idea bythe end. So I think from my
point of view, it's, it'skeeping that enthusiasm, keeping
(20:39):
that curiosity and making surethat, that we don't we just we,
we, we, the culture, thecreative culture is one of, as I
say, boldness, curiosity, and,and, and agitated I think.
Roy Sharples (20:54):
Creating and curating a culture where people
feel empowered, free, and safe,to express themselves and create
without fear, where peopleapproach ideation and problem
solving openly and innovatively.
By trying out new ideas and waysof thinking, and doing.
Tim Greenhalgh (21:12):
We're all human beings. I mean, I think, you
know, we're all guilty at timesof complacency, of arrogance of
conceitedness, and all that typeof stuff. I think what's
interesting, and what I'vealways enjoyed about where I've
worked, particularly, Fitch, butalso a camera, when I worked
with camera was they werewonderful breeding grounds for
(21:34):
young talent that actually thegraduate program the new, like,
my wasn't the beginning, newstudents coming in, actually
keeps the energy and the cultureof the business going. So you
know, you may be 10 years intoyour career, and you may have
recent dizzy heights and had nopromotions every year. But
suddenly, this young hotshotcomes in from a young college,
(21:56):
who's 22 years old andcompletely changes the way you
think about how you'redesigning. To my mind, that's
fast, the exciting part of whatwe do that is always still feels
like being a college!
Roy Sharples (22:08):
Right! Embracing originality and making unique
connections between disparateuniverses to define the future.
And by having an insatiablefeeling of you never know
enough, and are always in theconstant search for that
trigger, to generate newexperiences and inspiration that
(22:30):
fuel your imagination, andhaving that childlike wonder and
curiosity and approaching theworld through the innocence of a
child's eyes.
Tim, I should reflect upon yourcareer to date, what are your
lessons learned, in terms of thepitfalls to avoid, and the keys
to success that you can sharewith existing and aspiring
(22:54):
creative directors?
Tim Greenhalgh (22:55):
It probably goes without saying that every
designer I've ever met, isconstantly frustrated, never
happy with what they've done. Ialways think they could have
done it better. And I thinkthat's a wonderful attribute to
have. Yeah. Because I thinkgoing back to them word
complacency. You know, I think apitfall would be too to assume
(23:19):
you've arrived, and you've,you've got, you've got to the
destination. And I That worriesme, you know, i i the energy to
be constantly looking for newideas, is the thing you've
really got to keep alive. AndI'm keeping a level of naivety.
(23:40):
Yeah, I mean, I'm 57 years old,I've been working in this
industry for 34 years. Whocares? I mean, really, who
cares? If I can't come up withan original idea, if I can't
come up with an idea, the gueststhe room, whether that's an
internal audience or a clientaudience, that kind of getting
into the room excited, thendoesn't matter how much
(24:01):
experience I've got, I've justbecome dull, right? I've become
dull, because I'm not I've lostthe enthusiasm. I've lost the
curiosity. There's that wordagain. So I think, I mean, as
you asked me about whetherthat's a pitfall and I've got to
be careful that I'm not in anyway accusing anybody of being
those things. I just think it issomething that we all should be
(24:24):
mindful of. Yeah, whatevercareer we're in about, about
just about complacency. And Ithink, I think that's an
interesting one. And I thinkthat and I am gonna, I'm sorry,
I'm starting to sound like abroken record now. The world is
changing faster and faster allthe time. Nobody expects me at
(24:45):
my age to be the latest ticktock wizard. Couldn't just me,
but my curiosity needs to be ofa level where it's not an alien
concept to me that I canunderstand. Because I think our
curiosity again There'ssomething that will only
contribute to fueling new,interesting, groundbreaking
(25:05):
ideas. And with so much that'sgoing on at the moment. I mean,
I'm fascinated. I don't know ifyou've spent much time looking
at the kind of stuff that ElonMusk is doing around open AI.
Yeah. Oh, my God. Justfantastic. is scary. I don't
know if I know enough about ityet. I've been looking at it
quite a lot recently. But Ithink the whole the whole, if
(25:27):
you can say it can happen idea.
Yeah. It's fascinating.
Absolutely. But then it gets meto think about what does that
mean for 21st century design?
Well, I think he's got a lot ofexciting possibilities. It just
means that you know, being ableto use Photoshop may not be your
ultimate attribute in the next10 years. Yeah, because that
might be done by, by analgorithm.
Roy Sharples (25:48):
Great points. Tim.
Creativity will continue to bethe difference humans make in
the future. Yes, intelligenttechnologies can increasingly
expedite the majority of roles ahuman can. But the future
workplace is where humans willwork in unison with artificial
intelligence or thetechnological equivalent. Robots
have multiplied productivity andreplaced humans in many work
(26:12):
lines, freeing up humans toperform more creative and self
fulfilling roles that have yetto be defined, which makes it
even more exciting. What's yourvision for the future of the
creative industry and the roleof creativity?
Tim Greenhalgh (26:30):
So I think that's going to be around
fluidity. You know, I am askingmy Executive Creative Directors
and creative directors, andasking them to be nonspecific,
increasingly nonspecific. Whatdo I mean by that? Yes, they may
have come up through thebusiness has been the best
graphic designers, the bestinterior designers, the best web
(26:52):
designers, but now as creativedirectors, and now as leaders
who are directing creativity, ina far more dynamic world that we
live in, I want them to bewildly conceptual. And that
actually what I'm looking for,and I think what we are going to
see a lot more of these days, isthat the idea will be the thing
(27:15):
that carries much creativitythrough now, is that new? Well,
of course, that's not new. Doesit have a greater resonance
these days? I think so. I thinkthat, with so much that's
happening in the world, and somuch need for both brands to
communicate clearly. And for theaudience to understand really,
the power of the idea and thepower of storytelling is going
(27:36):
to be really, really important.
And I think that, that, youknow, one of the things I've
been looking at is, and I'vebeen talking to some friends of
mine who work in the educationindustry is to what extent that
might be a rethinking of thecurriculum. And some of the
universities, you know, thisidea that we should be
encouraging as much criticalthinking, education, as we are
(27:57):
practical skills, education. Butultimately, I think I'll go back
to where I started to just say,I think that I'm encouraging my
team, the people I work with tobe far more fluid in their
approach. And I love that word.
I think it's a it's a word tohold on to in terms of in terms
(28:18):
of how they haven't come up withtheir conceptual ideas.
Roy Sharples (28:21):
Yes. Your point on instilling creativity, as a core
discipline at the grassroots ofthe education curriculum, so
that it's nurtured throughoutthe education system, which
recognizes intelligence asmultifaceted by embracing
emotional and socialintelligence, critical thinking,
(28:43):
and practical problem solving byintegrating science, arts and
humanities as equal parts of thelearning jigsaw. Just how soon
is the future? One thing forsure, the future is unwritten,
and everything is possible.
(29:06):
Do you want to learn more abouthow to create by frontiers by
unleashing your creative power?
Then consider getting CREATIVITYWITHOUT FRONTIERS? How to make
the invisible visible bylighting the way into the
future. It's available in print,digital and audio on all
relevant book platforms. Youhave been listening to the
(29:30):
Unknown Origins podcast. Pleasefollow subscribe, rate and
review us. For more informationgo to unknownorigins.com - thank
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