The Life and Myth of Bo Jackson with Jeff Pearlman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
From the King of sports books comes the Key Sports
podcast Unleashed, presented by the MGM. Here's your host, Jerry
Ferrara and Olivia Harlan Dekker. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to Unleashed.

(00:32):
You know Bill Belichick says football season starts after Thanksgiving. Well,
in that case, welcome to football season. The leaves are changing,
and so is the playoff picture. We're going to get
to all that. Plus if you were a Bo Jackson fan.
Coming up, we have New York Times best selling author
Jeff Burman joining us to discuss his new book. He
has so many bestsellers. This one's called The Last Folk Hero,

(00:55):
The Life and Myth of Bo Jackson and Packer fans
will also love Gunslinger about Brett Farve. I've talked about
that one on the show before. I love that book.
I just started reading the Bou Jackson book. It is amazing.
He interviewed over seven people and there are incredible stories
in there. I'm really excited to talk to him and
here some of his stories. Jerry, you go back a

(01:16):
little ways with Jeff, don't you. I go back with Jeff.
He It was is one of my favorite writers I've
read all of his books. I used to try to
option all of his books as a producer years ago.
Now I think they're all optioned. Yeah. Anytime I know
there's a Jeff Prolman book in the works are coming,
I sort of put it into my schedule to make
time to read it. And also now audio wise, it's

(01:37):
a great way to listen to a book too. It's
kind of how I consume. So he's kind of the
goat when it comes to some of these sports books.
He really is. Oh. Absolutely, Yeah, as Walter Peyton book
is really good. Yeah, we have so much to ask him.
I'm really looking forward to this interview. Um. I'm also
really looking forward to hearing how your Thanksgiving. Once I
was thinking about you look, it was great. It was great.

(01:59):
We hosted twenty seven adults and six kids that I
did just discover something that I did not see. So
we had some tables in the basement because just overflow
of people down here, you know, the living room. There's
a little kitchen area and then there's like my gym.
It's not a big jim, but it's a nice little
the end. Today, I'm doing my best version of a

(02:20):
workout because I'm tired and I'm looking at the floor
in my and I'm thinking what And one of the kids,
I don't know, maybe it was my own, who knows,
just had some kind of permanent marker scribbling on the
floor in certain like the whole length of the beam
from mirror to wall. And uh, yeah, I'm just gonna,
like I said, I'm just gonna sell the house. I'm

(02:40):
just gonna put it on the lort sell. How I say,
at this point, after that party for Thanksgiving, we start
over well, and I know the Giants game was a
huge part of your day. How did you fare? It sucked,
to be honest, because they fought so hard and they're
just undermanned at this point, the injuries are too far gone.
I think Dable has been doing a really good job
of getting the most out of Daniel Jones. Quan sort

(03:03):
of been running to the ground a little bit. It's
a lot of a lot of carries this year. But
I'm proud. I'm very optimistic and happy. I am not
mad at the Giants one bit, even though I would
have loved to have seen them win that game. And
I think I might have a little unleashed later about
some Thanksgiving football stuff Oh okay, I'm here for that.
How about the NFC East All four teams would currently

(03:26):
make the playoffs. It's amazing. Nuts, Yeah, I think they
should have been the Washington contenders instead of the Commanders.
They came out of nowhere. They certainly look like they're
a problem. Then you look at Jalen Hurts, you know,
not that it was the hardest competition of the week.
I will say when you look at Jalen Hurts and
you have to really give him his m v P
chand a hundred and fifty seven on the ground, he's

(03:48):
in territory now where he's almost by himself. I know.
Which if you had told me this a couple of
weeks ago, we wouldn't have believed that because everyone was
hot on Josh Allen for like the first half of
the season and now running away with it literally literally
running away with it. Um. Also in that game, Packers
Eagles betters could cash in on the over in the
first thirty minutes. That game was just gunfire. That was

(04:14):
so exciting to watch. How much are you but are
you watching all start to finish to the Packer Because
that's why I respect about these Browns fans and I
come across there and and they screwed a lot of
people with that win. I think there was a lot
of bucks, parlay's and money lines and teasers that they
almost screwed or did screw. But they still watched the games,
all these Browns fans like there's something to watch. Are

(04:36):
you watching these Packer games still? Like we could still
get in mathematically? Yes? And you know I went to
the Thursday night game last week against the Titans, and
then this Sunday night, this past Sunday night. How could
you look away from that game even if you weren't
a fan of either team. That was a great game.
And then the excitement of Roger's leaving and Jordan's love
going in and he sparked something in our rookie receiver

(04:59):
Christian Watson got another touchdown. He's really found something in
the last couple of weeks. I mean, it's it's You're
going to see it on every talk show this week, right.
Should Aaron Rodgers call it a season? And then we
start the charade of all off season? What's he gonna do?
What's the team gonna do? You know, as a Packer fan,
I'm getting really weary of that I'm getting really run

(05:21):
down on this topic. But you've got to ask it,
you know, after Jordan's love comes in and does all right,
what do you think? I mean as an outsider, as
a as a non Packer fan, So as a non
Packer fan, it's so hard to I don't want to
say the word tank, but it's so hard to say,
all right, let's phone it in the season and make

(05:41):
and actually get a really good draft pick here. Because
there's such physical violence in football. I don't think you
could just phone it in because if you phone it in,
you can get seriously, seriously hurt. So to that degree
and there and there their athletes, they're glad eat there's
there's no phoning it. I would like to see if
Rogers really is banged up and we're not seeing the
best of Aaron Rodgers, and I know he has the

(06:02):
thumb thing. I would just like to see Jordan's love play.
Then it is a lost season. I'm not saying you
need to put such imponisma one and you could trade
Jordan's love or you could trade Aaron. I'm not even
going that far. I just want to see Jordan's love
play because they are going to have to make some
decisions this offseason, and look, would it be the worst

(06:23):
thing in the world. The Packers only one one more
game the rest of the year and had a really
good draft pick, And I don't think that's the word thing.
Although Michael Lombardi, friend of the show's coming and joining
us next week. I listened to his pod and he
had a very distinct like, no, Aaron Rodgers getting a
hundred and ninety billion dollars, he needs to play if
he could play. So I trust his take more than mine.

(06:44):
I just want to see Jordan's love play and see
what he could do. I know he came in in
the third quarter. He went six for nine, one thirteen
and that touchdown of Christian Watson I mentioned. I agree
because he's in year three and the Packers need to
decide what they want to do with him going into
year four of his rookie contract. It's it's a business decision.
And how can you cut a guy, trade guy, whatever

(07:06):
you're gonna do with him if you really haven't given
him a shot. And now this season that could be
one upside of this season is that we can see
what we got. Yeah, Like, it's a tough spot to
be in and the Packers and you Packer fans are
really not used to ever even having this talk. That's
why I don't mind all the sports talk we're gonna

(07:26):
get about this, because you don't see it with Aaron
Rodgers in the Packers. You just don't because you're always contenders,
You're always in the mix, always a threat. So I
do think this is a rare opportunity where you again,
he is banged up. It is confirmed Aaron Rodgers is
banged up. It's not like he's a and playing so well,
or else we wouldn't have this discussion. He says he's

(07:48):
playing Sunday. He does. He just came out and said
he's playing Sunday. Rib injury aside, thumb injury aside. I
don't know what kind of skeleton is going to be
playing quarterback for the Packers this weekend, but Aaron says
it's him. And listen, when it's the Chicago Bears on
the schedule and you've gone out of your way to
talk about how you own them, I maybe would say

(08:09):
the same thing too. I'll play this Bears game and
then you know what, don't they got the Chiefs? Jordan Law,
you go go ahead, go ahead to head with my homes,
get in their kids. Another team that will certainly not
be making the playoffs is the l A. Rams. I mean,
my god, how the Mighty have fallen? After winning the
Super Bowl. Now they're three and eight and there's no
word on when Matt Stafford will return. And to make

(08:32):
matters worse, the Lions owned their first round pick, So
I'm not I'm not sure Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey
are gonna want to stick around for a rebuild. And
Jalen Ramsey got burned by Travis Kelsey this weekend and
he didn't look good. He's kind of hot and cold.
What do you think of the Rams? Look? Travis Kelsey
burns a lot of people that that connection is just

(08:53):
undeniably the best ever. I'm sorry you'll disrespect Aniel the
great tight ends. That's the greatest connection ever. What do
you say with the Rams? They got their Super Bowl,
they got that amazing new stadium. And it's weird because
I looked this up because I was wondering should the
Rams be in l A. I was trying to do
this whole reconfiguration. Wouldn't be better if the Raiders were

(09:17):
in l A. And then maybe the Chargers were in Vegas,
and then where do we put the Rams. I do
know they have a strong l A fan base for
the I mean strong using that word liberally. But then
I looked at their attendance and they are like top
ten in attendants because I think all the other teams
fans show up for their games. So I guess the
business model does work if you're okay with six of

(09:39):
the place being filled with the opposing teams fan. Look,
they got their championship. It's amazing. They have no draft picks.
I know they went they tried to go in on
McCaffrey with some late draft picks, like in a few
years from now. I don't know what how much more
could you do? It might be time the Aaron Donald
will probably retire. Jalen Ramsey. You probably gotta trade him

(10:00):
to a contender and maybe you could get a first
round pick or get something they got. They're gonna have
to just reload. It's gonna be really hard to do
that without your draft picks. I mean, the Lions potentially
may get like three and six overall this year if
this continues this way, Yeah, I know, And then then
they might be ready next year, you know what I mean.

(10:21):
They there's a lot to like about the Lions, and
there certainly was this weekend as well. So yeah, if
they get a couple of pieces, what's not to like
about them for this coming season? Yeah, it's We talk
about the NBA a lot with the Lakers and the
Pelicans and and trading for the star player that maybe
brings you that instant success, but long term doesn't bring
you any So now if you're the team that traded

(10:43):
the superstar, you're kind of sitting back like it's my time. Now.
We see it with the Pelicans. Now, you gotta we
make fun of Houston Texans on this show. But the
Browns stink this year. They stole that game against the Books.
That's gonna be a good pick for the Texans unless
the Browns really go on the run, which I don't
see happening. Obviously. We know what position the Seattle Seahawks

(11:04):
are in with the Russell Wilson trade. So it's bad
for the Rams, but they got their championship, and I
just think it's gonna be a tear it down and
rebuild and it might take a very long time. So
let me ask you theoretically, and you can plug in
any sport, any team. If your team went all in
to win just one championship like the Rams did, how

(11:25):
many years of irrelevancy would you be willing to trade
for that? Five years? Ten years? I mean, how much
is one championship season worth you? Okay, Wow, it's a
wonderful question. I will say I would do five years
for the Giants, five because it's been five years. It's
been longer than that, five years for the Yankees. For

(11:46):
the Knicks, I will trade my lifetime for one championship
because it's been my lifetime. Yeah, you give me one,
because I do think one Knicks championship is worth three
anywhere else in the NBA. For the fans, I would
take gone thirty years of irrelevancy for one championship, because
we've been waiting and been irrelevant waiting for one championship

(12:07):
for my entire life. How many of those games would
you be at in the playoffs? Oh? As many? As
as many as I could be. It's as many as
Bree would allow. Yeah, if it could be all of them,
I'd be there for all of them. I've actually I've
been the one Knicks playoff game in the nineties and
it was an incredible experience and it hasn't been many
of them in modern day. I did not go to

(12:29):
any Knicks Hawks two years ago, so that I would
go to all of them if I could. That'd be
fun to go just to see Trey Young. He's so
fun in those playoffs. Yes, not for you, Not for you.
No great villain, though, great villain. Love a hell. The
NFL slate is so good this week, Jerry, I'm really excited.
It's kind of a sneak preview for playoffs. Really obviously
at the end of the show we dig deeper into

(12:50):
it with Peter Andrew. But real quick as you're looking
at the slate, I mean Thursday Bills Pats. Bills are
minus four and a half favorite. We have the big
return of DeShawn Wis Utson in Houston. There's a lot
to like on this late What sticks out to you
Bill's Pats on Thursday. That's a great Thursday night game.
We deserve that Thursday night game that has playoff implications.

(13:11):
The Pats are in them, must win obviously, my Giants
and Commanders, although that might not like the World on
Fire offensively, that's a playoff game, because right now they're,
like you said, all four NFC East teams are in
the playoffs. But and I'll definitely peek in under the
Sean game to see what he's got. That being said,
the two games I have circled as my heavyweight fights

(13:32):
Dolphins Niners. I know, obviously it's a f C NFC
so you can't really say it's a playoff preview, but
these should be two high level playoff teams. What a
fun matchup. I just cannot wait to watch that game.
And then your Kansas City Chiefs, who are on a
nice little run revenge game, except this time they're going
to Cincinnati to play Joe Burrow in the Bengals, and
Joe Burrow, Joe Barrow's kind of got the swag back

(13:55):
that he found last year. It's starting to get it's
Joe Burrow time. That is gonna be in saying game.
And then just as like a little dessert, little palate cleanser,
Chargers Raiders is always just like a psychopathic game, like
you just don't know. I dare you to pick who's
gonna win that game and be right, yeah, And Vegas
is expecting both of those games to be close. Chiefs

(14:16):
minus two and a half, Chargers minus. To look with
the Raiders, I mean they put it on display this
past weekend. There are pieces of the Raiders to like,
mostly Josh Jacobs, but there's something there at the Raiders
that just feels like they're never dead. No. Yeah, it's
last year they won so many close games and everyone

(14:38):
wondered if they were for real. This year, they've lost
all those close games, but they're starting to pick it
back up. When you look at the roster, you certainly
they have blue chippers all over the place. So yeah,
I think we're gonna see They're not gonna go quietly.
I don't think the Raiders are gonna go quietly, although
they're the most dysfunctional. By dysfunctional, I mean you just
have no idea. Bipolar, a bi holer team, you just

(15:00):
have no idea what you are going to get. Okay,
So I've been excited to ask you about this game
because you live there Michigan, Ohio state, and you have
ton of Ohio state family members, and I'm just curious
if you have confirmation that Columbus is still standing or
have they just completely burnt it down. I would say
it felt like a funeral in some ways. A lot

(15:23):
of people looking at the ground muttering, a lot of
my in laws certainly upset. I've definitely a lot of
fun Ryan Day like, there's just a lot of that.
It's hard for me because I like college football a lot.
I watch college I don't have a team, so I don't.
Yes you do. We've gone over this Coastal Carolina, Coastal Caroline,

(15:45):
which I kind of stopped following their record after week three.
I think they were three and a at one point.
Let's check on them. Let's see old Coastal Carolina. Yeah,
how are they doing well? When you type in Coastal
Carolina on Google on the wait, give me a second,

(16:05):
what's the name? Hey, they're six and two, tied with
James Madison up in the Sun Belt. They're doing all right.
Here we go. See they're nine and two overall, six
and two in conference. So I felt two losses. I
get it, but no, they it's a it's a real
thing over here. Some of Breeze cousins go to Ohio

(16:27):
State and I did a little temperature check their the
vibes are not good. So I understand because Briand coached
a horrible game. He coached scared. They had punts on
the Michigan forty three in their own forty nine. They
were so timid. They were terrible on both sides of
the ball. And think about this with Michigan, they were

(16:48):
the underdog, they were on the road, they without their
best player, and Jim Harbaugh coached a beautiful game. Like
everyone's saying, it's it's his best game he's ever coached,
and it's a lot of college coaches best game ever coached.
They were dominant from the start. They adjusted so perfectly.
And now Harbor is too and oh in the last

(17:09):
two years he started oh and five in this series,
so it's crazy. Their quarterback J J. McCarthy, remember we
had Pat forty on early on the season and he
was walking us through the Michigan quarterback controversy. Well. J. J.
McCarthy said that they knew Ohio State would try to
stop their run game, so they went deep. They aired
it out obviously, right, you don't need to be a
scout to figure that one out. And he was so impressive.

(17:32):
Michigan tipped a tail, was so impressive. But now Kid McNamara,
who was the backup. Remember he was going to be
the starter. He has entered the transfer portal. So in
college football, you never know what you're gonna get. Yeah,
and you talk about Pat Forty, I remember asking him
specifically about the two quarterback that and he did say,
though he made that great point with Harbaugh that you

(17:54):
know he's just getting the guy raps for the transpportal,
which just tells me that this t is also fighting
hard for Harrible. And then the run game, which did
not get going right away. I mean Donovan Nevers finished
with two sixteen yards or something like that with two TV.
It was just a beating. It was an old fashioned
butt kicking. And I'm excited to see I mean Michigan,

(18:16):
I think they should have no problems when the next
week and uh, it's gonna be a poor Ohio State.
They we've gotta exp're spending, right. This is a good
lesson for expanding because it really is just one bad
week and they're on the outside looking in and probably
will stay that way. Right, And I'm going to talk
more about that in my Unleashed because don't say poor
Ohio State. They laid an egg. This is what happened.

(18:39):
So now the college football playoffs, so far as we
go into conference championship week, Georgia one, Michigan too, although
there are a lot of people who make a good
argument Michigan should be one, TCU three USC four, So
unless we have a major upset on Saturday, those are set.
Seating might change a little bit. But um yeah, I'm
worried the playoff committee may screw this whole thing up

(19:00):
because the only playoff implications are really the Pac twelve
in Big twelve games. So it's interesting. Can I go
ahead and get right to my unleashed because I can't
hold back any longer. I feel like you're warmed up
and ready to go. Let's do it. It's college football.

(19:25):
Teams playing in their conference championship game should not be
penalized for a poor performance or even a slight loss
in an extra game that other teams don't have to play.
It's a twelve game regular season. This is the week
thirteenth game. And you're telling me if Georgia went twelve
and oh, if Michigan went twelve and oh and loses

(19:49):
in this game that some other teams aren't having to play,
that someone else can get jumped. So those two teams,
they're safe, they're fine. It's USC and TCU who could
grew everything up here and let teams who didn't play
in this weekend slate sneak into the College Football Playoff, rested, recovered, healthy, right,

(20:11):
everything about it? So, Jerry, this is the ninth college
football playoff, right, and historically three times we have seen
an eleven and one team get in the playoff without
playing in their conference championship. I think that's crazy. Most recently,
a great example was when Alabama got in because number
four undefeated Wisconsin lost in the Big Ten championship game

(20:33):
and Alabama was able to sneak in there and Wisconsin
then just had the one loss in Week thirteen. So
the other two contenders for this year's scenario, as we
talked about Ohio State in Alabama, they don't play this weekend.
Ohio State and Alabama, by not winning their division, gets
a bye. And it's it's not right that they still

(20:54):
have a path. Like I said, we've seen it happen
before three times, and Alabama has two losses. I don't
think you should be punished for having to climb that hurdle.
So I think this weekend should only count for seeding.
If you g A loses, they're still in. If they
lose close and Michigan does really, really well, they could switch.
I could see Michigan go into one. I'm okay with that.

(21:16):
Like I mentioned real quick as a tangent, people making
the argument Michigan should be one Georgia should be too
right now is because Michigan's best win, which is over
Ohio State, is better than you as best win over Tennessee.
Michigan's second best win is over Penn State, and people
think that's much better than Georgia's best win over Oregon.
So see Jerry, This this stuff is confusing, and it

(21:39):
does come down because people say they passed the eye test.
If they really can't think of a reason why they
want a team in the playoff, they'll just pull up
some of that bullshit. So I don't want USC to lose,
TCU to lose and Alabama or Ohio State get in
because they didn't play a game this weekends. And I'm okay.
Last thing, I'm okay with Utah beating out us See

(22:00):
for a spot because it is a rematch and Utah
had already won it, so I can say that the
Pact twelve championship, that can be like a play in game.
But again, all this stuff is very confusing, and I
just don't think another conferences lost in their championship game
should let a team from another conference slip in. That's
a great only I felt, I'm gonna go on the

(22:21):
record and say, and you've had a lot of bangers
for your unlease, I'm gonna go on record and say
that one do the breakout for that, I think we
have to bring. I think we have to do the
Instagram to where their breakout for that. On least, because
I felt you there, I think you're right and I
did college that they're just trying to figure out the
way that they're limping to the expanded playoff, I think

(22:41):
is what's happening. But I'm with you, I am a
it would be very very strange. Well, let me just
ask you this before I do my On least, who
do you think Georgia would like to avoid? Say they
stick with the number one seed, which is more than likely,
who do you think they want to avoid for that?
For see, who do you not want to see rolling
in it? Well, look usc top to bottom. They're not

(23:03):
the strongest team. But Caleb Williams is a bona fide star.
He's the clear cut favorite for Heisman. He can pull
off amazing things. He's a jaw dropping quarterback. So I
just don't trust going against it. And here I'm speaking
as a Georgia fanal of bias too, but I think
that's probably who you g A doesn't want to face.

(23:24):
TCU doesn't scare me so much, but USC and Caleb
Williams would be a handful for any team, even the
nation's leading defense. Well listen, my on least is not
nearly going to be as passionate as yours and filled
with logic and things that actually track. But that being said,
you know, at this point, I'm all about circumventing the expected.

(23:47):
Let's try to rid ourselves of some of the traditions.
I get it, some of them we like to hold onto.
And this is counterintuitive to the game we watched on Thanksgiving,
because the Lions were very, very entertaining on Thanksgiving. That
was a great game versus Builds, arguably the best game
of the slate. That being said, can we get off
the Lions and the Cowboys always playing on Thanksgiving? I

(24:10):
get that, I get the tradition. I love it. It's
been long enough. Maybe can we have one of them
play and they alternate every year on Thanksgiving? Because I
really enjoyed Pat's vikings. It was really nice to see
just that kind of matchup. So maybe we have either
Dallas or Detroit play and for that year, and then

(24:31):
the other two games are filled with just teams we've
never really seen on Thanksgiving before, and then next year
it will be Detroit's turn. Do we really have to
have both the Cowboys and the Lions every year on Thanksgiving?
So half break tradition, Give me one, and now listen
to this. This is the one that you're gonna roll
your eyes out. I get the three game. Maybe we

(24:52):
dropped the two because it is hard to watch three
games on Thanksgiving, So maybe we dropped down the two
games on Thanksgiving, and then may maybe we put the
third game on Friday boom a day. We're all all
just sitting around recovering, and we're all just like, oh,
why do we eat so much? Why do we drink
so much? I'm so tired, I don't want to move.

(25:13):
What better thing to do than to have like a
nice one pm or four pm game imagine that Bill's
Pats game was just four pm the next day. You'd
be psyched on Friday. I'll tell you why, because college
football kind of owns that Friday. They could have Saturday.
They own Saturday. No, that's a that's a big day
in college football. I guess that's my colleague. Well, the

(25:35):
main unleashed part was get rid of one of the
Lions or the Cowboys and have them. They could just
alternate every year. You guys don't get to own Thanksgiving forever.
It's not cheap shot at Lions fans. You guys have
stunk for a hundred years, and this year you're very
fun to watch. I don't understand. While you deserve to
be on thanksgive you've done nothing to deserve to play
on Thanksgiving every year. I disagree purely for the sake

(25:57):
of tradition. I'm a sucker for tradition. I don't even
know why those two teams play on Thanksgiving? Do you
know exactly? I know more? Right, I know more about
college football than I do about why those teams play
on Thanksgiving. Oh my gosh. Well, you know who knows
a lot more than the two of us is our
guest Jeff Perlman. Let's go ahead and bring him in.

(26:19):
From the eight six Mets to the nineties Cowboys, and
from Walter Payton to Barry Bonds. He's the author of
some of the best sports books ever written. We can
both attest to that. His latest is called The Last Folk.
He wrote the life and myth of Bo Jackson. It's
the best seller, and he is going to have so
many good stories for us today. Let's bring in Jeff Command. Okay, Jeff,

(26:48):
this book is another incredible read. I'm so glad you
sent me a copy. I've started it over Thanksgiving break.
As always, you go into such great detail about the man,
not just the athlete. You talk to their family, their ends, everyone.
So when you're writing these books, does it feel like
you're almost thinking like them, living with them? Does it
feel like you almost take them on? I wrote a

(27:09):
book years ago about Walter Payton. It was called Sweetness,
And there was this moment one night I took a run.
I've told my kids about this. It was so weird.
I was taking a run. I was living in New
Roshell in New York. I was running and I felt
like Walter Payton was running next to me. I was
deep in it all, and I just like, I almost
feel like having some delusional conversation with Walter Payton. It's
so weird and it sounds like I was on drugs
and I really wasn't. And you actually get to that

(27:32):
point when you research and research and research and all
you do it's not a healthy way to live. Like
all you do is think about one person all the time, nonstopping.
My wife is like I don't want to hear any
more about bow Jackson, and my kids like I don't
want to hear any more about bo Jackson. But all
you want to do is talk about Bo Jackson. So yeah,
it's very immersive and very weird. The title is a
great one. Is the title something that you work off

(27:56):
of from the beginning, like in your mind you kind
of know, or is it you have to do all
the research, start putting the words on paper. The last
folk hero I mean that is that that's the first
person I really could think of as bo Jackson. Oh well,
I appreciate that. It actually wasn't. Um. What happened is
there's a really great writer named Joe Poznanzi who's doing
a lot about baseball through the years. And at some
point he referred to Bo Jackson something he wrote as

(28:17):
the last folk hero, and he was actually referring to
the the famous sort of Bo Jackson throwing out Harold
Reynolds at Home Plate in Seattle. And if you watch,
which is great, and if you watch a replay, and
you probably would't even be aware of this unless you
watch it, we never actually see Bow release the ball
like um because it was shot with one camera, so
the camera goes to Harold Reynolds drowning. Third. You never
see Bow release the ball. And Joe is writing about

(28:39):
how with Bo, so much of what he did and
so many of his feats we don't actually have literal
documentation of, and even this famous play, we don't see
it all. And he said, he really is the last
folk hero because nowadays even someone like show Hey Otani.
Way before he came to the Angels, we had video
of him in Japan, even though we're miles and miles
away of doing things. And with Bow he ran a

(29:01):
four one three forty at Auburn, we don't see it.
He ran a four one seven on grass with the
Raiders in Camp, we don't see it. All these plays
he did, these things he did in high school. He
went back to back state to Catholan championships at Alabama.
We don't have any video of it, so a lot
of it really feels like folklore when it comes to him. Yeah,
I mean the size and speed he's it's like he's
built in a lab. He's faster than Tyree Kill, like

(29:22):
you mentioned, and he's thirty pounds bigger. So when there's
so much to marvel at in both football and baseball,
was their story that did come up that you found
out not to be too? That was a myth. Yeah,
Actually it's kind of funny. He wrote an autobiography in
called Bow Knows Bow, and he did it with Dick Schapp.
It was a book I loved when I was younger. Right,
It was like a definitive sports biography for sure. It

(29:44):
went to number two on the New York Times list.
It was like a big seller. And I was pitching
this book my book two different publishing houses. I talked
about this thing, but wrote about in his book, which
is at at Auburn. He went over his first twenty
one in baseball with twenty one strikeout, So over twenty
one and he struck out all twenty one times, and
I kept saying everyone, his recovery from that is just amazing.
It's it's amazing, it's it's amazing. And I would interview

(30:06):
people from Auburn baseball from back then and they'd say, yeah,
over twenty one. Over twenty one's crazy over strikeouts. But
then I started digging through the old like Auburn wonderful
sports information department sent me all the box scores first
game Illinois State two for five. Whit wait what I mean?
So they're also like in the same book he wrote

(30:28):
about his first ever college football run. It was a
game against wake Forest is freshman year, and in his
book he plowed into the line for no game. Well,
no game. Why watch a video of that game and
his first run is a handoff up the gut for
nine yards. So I'm not saying he's lying in any way,
shape or form, But I do think memory is a
tricky thing and one of the important things about biography

(30:49):
and me hopefully biographers as you go back and you
confirm and you reconfirm, and you check and you check
and you find out that things that you thought were
actually art, it's fascinating. Yeah, that's something I've spent hours
on YouTube watching just Bo Jackson throwing people out because
he would throw the ball and the ball would actually
still be picking up speed as it would enter either

(31:09):
the first basin or the third basin of the catcher's glove,
which I always thought was insane and something. I think
that adds to his legend. And I'm pretty obsessed with
this and I'm trying to work on stuff. I don't
think we'll we'll probably and they we'll never see a
dual athlete again, right, fair to say, or at least
baseball football. I know Dion did it, and he was
healthier than Bo Jackson, so that certainly helped him. But yeah,

(31:30):
I don't. I just think if you're an amazing football player,
you're gonna go play football. And we've seen people toy
with the notion of like Russell Wilson, I got drafted
fifth round. I don't think we ever see that again.
It's kind of a bummer. I've written about guys, you know,
wrote about a breath Fire biography, wrote wrote a Walter
Payton biography, wrote a bo biography. I don't know, Dwight
Gooden and Darryk Strawberry growing up in the match. Always

(31:51):
different guys, and what they all sort of shared from
their boyhoods is they went out in yards and beat
the crap out of each other, and they play tackle
football with their buddies. They were leaping over ditches and
climbing over fences and finding making up games in the yard,
finding rocks and throwing them and finding stick all that stuff.
And nowadays out here in southern California, it's ridiculous. Like

(32:15):
some kid is seven years old and even shows slight
talent pitching. Well, the next thing you know, there's some
guy who used to pitch for Trip Away Wallah Walla,
and he's he's a pitching coach. Now we need to
get them with that. And but Mom, I want to
play basketball. No, no, no, we're gonna have you because
those two other kids up the block, they're already in
this program that's amazing and it helps develop pictures, and
all of a sudden, we've wiped out, just wiped out

(32:37):
generations of should have been multi sport athletes. And what
I think we've done along with that is really killed
much of the joy of childhood, which is playing killed
the carrier in new yard, which is playing pickup hoops,
which is playing multiple sports. So they'll probably be other
ones who come along, but few and far in between.
That's a really good point, especially all his parents. I
think that's important to remember. My husband always tells us

(33:00):
story his neighborhood players. They played his game called Sam
at the goal line and he just had to stand
there and just get tackled. Why do you think both
first picked baseball? Oh? What's It's actually a good story.
So he um Bow was drafted. So Bo was playing
baseball football at Auburn and he was very good at both.
But you know, he was a Heisman Trophy winner in football,

(33:20):
and he was gonna make a lot more money in football.
And it says it's a senior year at Auburn. He
has already won the Heisman trophies playing baseball, and the
Tampa Bay Buccaneers are coming off of a two and
fourteen season. They suck. They're going to have the number
one pick in the draft. The owner of the Buccaneers,
Ukulver House, sends his private plane to Auburn to pick
Bow up the morning of the Auburn baseball game, flying

(33:42):
him to Tampa Bay for a physical and then flying
back for the game, and back in the day in
the SEC, you couldnt be pro in one sport amateur
and another in any way, shape or form. So Auburn
is playing Alabama Birmingham that night at Auburn, the coaches
hal Barrett and he's like, where's bow And another is like, yeah,
he flew to Tampa. And I was like, he did

(34:03):
what to Tampa? On the Bucks plane, He's like, please
tell me your kid, and please tell me your kidding.
Wasn't kidding. He actually lost his eligibility from that flight.
The funny follow up is the Buccaneer. He swears off
the Buccaneers. At that point He's basically like, f the Buccaneers,
I'm never playing for this team. Blah blah blah. The
Buccaneers get the number one pick, they draft bo anyway,
the owners convince he's gonna be able to sign. One

(34:24):
of my favorite moments in the book and favorite moments
of reporting ever, is um Both flies to Tampa to
meet with the Buccaneers after the draft because his agents
say you should. Steve Young is a quarterback for the
Bucks and the owner of the Buccaneers, Ukulver House, says
to Steve Young, let's come with me. I want to
take Bow out for a state dinner. Help me woo
bo Jackson. So, Steve Young, it's your culver House, it's

(34:46):
bo Jackson. Uculver House excuses himself in the table and
bo Jackson leans in the Steve Young and he goes
Steve to see you know, there's no fan way I
ever signed with this team, and Steve Young all right, man,
my work just done. That's just heat. So he was
The Buccaneers really forced his hand and made him say,
to hell with you. I'm not playing for you. I
told you I wouldn't play with you. And then the

(35:08):
Royals came along and made him a really good offer. Yeah,
And on paper, though with the Raiders, it certainly seemed
like it was the perfect fit. Right. My first members
of bo Jackson are honestly tech Bobawl like so many
other kids my age. It wasn't always the perfect fit though,
organizationally for him, right, because it was a little hazy
for me being a kid watching. But I just always
remember they were talking about Bow and the Raiders not

(35:30):
necessarily being a match made in heaven. Well, the issue
was they already had. Marcus Allen was also a Heisman
Trophy winning half back and really good. It's funny Marcus
Allen was much more beloved as a Raider than Bo Jackson.
The players on the Raiders loved Marcus Allen, loved everything
about him, and when Bo came along, Marcus Allen actually
shifted to fullback and did it willingly. And if you
watch that Monday Night game where Bogo is crazy, all

(35:52):
those blocks are set up by Marcus Allen. So it
wasn't an ideal fit as far as sort of two
half backs be lined together. But Marcus Allen was such
a freaking consummate professional that he made it work. And
the funny thing also is, since we're here, since Olivia,
you have the Packer ties. The Green Bay Packers draft
Tony Manderts number two overall, and that's like the draft

(36:13):
where the only guy you didn't want to draft Tony Manners.
That's that's Dion Sanders, Troy Aikman, you know, Barry Sanders,
the whole thing. Packers take Tony Manderts number two. He
holds out because he doesn't want to play in Green Bay,
and Al Davis calls the Packers and offers Bo Jackson
for the rights of Tony Mandricks and the Packers turn
them down and Bo Jackson stays with the Raiders. That

(36:35):
would have been a good deal for the Green Bay Packers.
He would have Bretton Olivia. That's gotta hurt. That's got hurt.
I'm sorry. In nine, I think that was my grandpa's
first year with the Packers. So I wonder if he
was in that draft room. I'm hoping not, but we're
gonna say he wasn't. I think my research wasn't. There
was out getting a burger the whole time. Okay, I'm

(36:56):
curious with Bo. Do you think there was a good
fit for him in the NFL? Maybe if he could
have played for one city like Dion Sanders in Atlanta.
I think he was made for a small market. He
wasn't a guy going out, he wasn't a guy partying.
He was married to that point, had kids that kind
of sewed his oats at Auburn. I actually think a
market like Atlanta would have been great for him. A
southern market playing in front of sort of yet a

(37:16):
big family, playing in front of relatives. Kansas City and
baseball was a great market for him. Kansasy's like the
perfect city. For a guy like that size wise, so
you know, Chiefs just small to mid major. He was
not a big city guy, Adam. He was drafted out
of high school in the second round by the New
York Yankees. And it's actually funny. The Yankees draft him
super high. We're really into him, thought he was gonna

(37:37):
be a mega star. The scout was a guy named
Gus Pelouse. He goes to knock on his door and
Bo Jackson won't to answer the door. He calls Bo
Jackson won't pick up the phone. They call Bo Jackson's
high school coats and say, um, we want to fly
you and Bow to New York for Yankees Red Sox.
We just want to fly you there to show you
what we have to offer. Bo's high school coats goes

(37:58):
to Bone. He's like, Yankees, Red Sox, we can go.
You didn't want to do it. Was terrified of New York,
had no interest in New York. Didn't even know the
Yankees and Red tie more rivalry Green Bay. Weirdly, I
don't know about the cold, but market wise would have
been a gray market for Bo Jackson. The other thing
that always stood out to me with Bow as a kid,
I mentioned tech Mobile, but then you know, and me
being like a sneaker head and all those campaigns that

(38:18):
Nike started doing when they really started picking up steam.
I always think somehow, too, we always still hear boos
and stuff like that. It's somehow we almost feel like
we talked about it enough for like what that campaign
wasn't what that shoe was it was if you remember
back then, it was either like Jordan's, which were super
high and clunky, and that's really it. I mean, I
also loved like the Michael chang Reebok pumps. Outside of that,

(38:41):
there was nothing, And I just feel like you never
really got enough credit for. However, the I don't know
what he had to do with the actual impetus of hey,
I want a cross trainer, but that campaign and that
shoe I think is part of what we see a
lot today. Still. Oh yeah, it's one of the biggest.
The whole bow Nose campaign is one of the biggest
ad campagne of all time. One of the greatest moments

(39:02):
in marketing in sports crossover history is um So Bow
made his only Major League off Star game and he
was starting and Tony LaRusso was a manager for the
American League. He had both lead off just for the moment,
and it was in Anaheim. Beautiful day, picture perfect day.
This is when people watch the All Star Game like
and mass like it was a national viewing audience. In
the booth Vince Scully and Ronald Reagan. Bo Jackson leads

(39:27):
off second pitch of the game. He hits a dead
homer straight to center. Feel beautiful trotting around the bases,
looks like a god. That same game, in the fourth inning,
Nike made this major ad by to premiere the Bow.
You don't know Didley ad with Bo Diddley and all
the other and so they were all the Nike executives
had met up at Mickey Mantle's restaurant in Manhattan to

(39:50):
watch the game because this game at everything to Nike.
This was the big unveiling of this ad campaign. Bow
hits a home run and in Mickey Mantle's restaurant, all
these Nike ad execs are going crazy. They're jumping up
and down, they're hugging, they're screaming. All the other pagents
are sure like what, well, I don't know what that
was going on here, but it was a great moment
of synergy. Sports marketing, everything coming together and that campaigns

(40:12):
is skyrocket. And the funny thing also interestingly of it,
Bo was not very charismatic. Bow had a severe stutter.
And if you watch those ads he's in that ed,
he says nothing. In all the ads together, he probably
says six words total. It's not about what he said,
it's about what he symbolized. The craziest thing to me
with Bo Jackson now is that he just disappeared. He's
a grandpa in suburban Chicago. I know you spoke with him,

(40:35):
but he didn't want to be interviewed for the book.
Why do you think he's so private? What do you
know of his life now or his thoughts on the
book or on his career. So the thing I love
about him, and in a way the thing that worked
for this book, like if he were like now, like
doing color commentating raider games, there'd be much less mystique
to him. Right if he was out all the time, Hey,

(40:56):
I'm Bo Jackson. If he was always commenting on I'm
better than Derren Kenry or I'm better than Mike Trout, like,
it would kind of ruin the illusion of it all.
And the beauty is really the illusion that he was here.
He was this prominent guy. Poof he gets hurt and
he kind of vanishes, and that's sort of the appeal
of it all. He lives in Burridge, Illinois. He owns
a bunch of companies, shovels his own driveway. He's been

(41:18):
married for almost forty years. He's three kids. He recently
had a grandson. He does autograph signings every now and then.
He's super, super insanely guarded. I spoke to him at
the beginning of this project for about thirty minutes on
the phone. He was lovely. He said, Um, I get
asked to do things all the time. I'm not I'm
not gonna help you. I don't have a problem with
you writing the book, but I'm just I'm like, he

(41:39):
just doesn't want a big neon sign over his head,
saying I'm Bo Jackson. It's like kind of respect to
be honest with you. I never take any offense, and
I kind of respect the dignity of it. But have
you talked with him since it came out? No, this
is why I've been told. I haven't ready talked about this.
The book comes out and there is a part when
he was in college at Auburn when he was kind
of engaged, sort of kinded to two women at the

(42:01):
same time, and whatever, you're three years old. I'm just saying, like,
we do, we do. People do do stupid things. When
you're twenty three years old, when you're writing a whole
biography of someone's life, you do have to at least
sort of and you find out these kind of things
you got to write about it. It's not sles, it's
it's the thing. But I was told his wife wasn't
crazy about that, So yeah, what's I get? I actually
do get like I of course, so he tweeted out

(42:23):
something like, if a biography is unauthorized, blah blah blah
blah blah, you need to get it from the real source.
I interviewed people for this book, bo Jackson, that book
Boe knows bow he um he wrote to a dick Shop,
which means Dick Shap wrote it. Any interviewed bow a
million times for Dick Shap donated all his notes, everything,
all the audio recordings to the Auburn University Library. Someone

(42:43):
made me aware of that. So when I basically had
five d pages have typed out bo Jackson interviews most
of which have never been used before from when bow
is interviewed by Dick snap In. So I busted my
ass on this. Yeah, and I want to talk about
some of your su because oliving. Jeff and I have
talked over the years, because I've been a fan of
his work forever. I've always been saying, this book's a movie,

(43:07):
this books a show, this books the movie, this book show.
It just was such a no brainer to me and
to and to you too, I think, Jeff, but it
really when I heard about Showtime, I'll tell you, like,
the first thing I went through my head was amazing
book to make into a show. I cannot wait to
see how they executed it. And I always wondered, like,
can you actually cast Magic Johnson? Can you cast Kareem?

(43:30):
Can you? And I was just as an actor too,
I'm just curious, like I just want to see how
that goes. And what a delight because everyone in that show.
I never for one second bumped on the fact of like, ah,
that's not magic. I just was in. It sucked me in.
I thought the performances were great. And what makes me
most happy now is I want this to be a
run on. Jeff Pearlman books, because I always said, eighty

(43:53):
six mets that's to me, the greatest sports story that
we have not seen really on screen. That always been
I'm a Yankee fan saying, no, I know, Olivia, you
probably have some gun slinger stuff. So yeah, what was
that feeling like seeing one of your books be really
be put on the big, small, big screen because it's HBO. Wait,

(44:14):
so I know, like I mean serious, like I know
this is like kind of old hat for you to
a certain degree, Like you've been through it, You've been
through TV, You've been on different shows. I've been very successful.
But I feel like for me personally, there was a moment.
I really mean this, Like, first of all, people option
your stuff and you never think anything's gonna come of it.
And someone will give you a little money and they'll say, oh,
I know someone who knows someone. You know how it is.
It's always like nonsense. And I had that happen a lot.

(44:35):
So when this happened, there was a huge moment for me.
And they had this premiere party in l A and
my wife was out of town. I took my two
kids or both teenagers, and there was this moment my
son at the time, I think was fourteen and my
daughter was seventeen, and um, they had a they had
a cigar bar. They had a rolling your cigar bar.
My seventeen year old daughter goes, we should smoke a cigar.
We're totally smoking. And it was me, my seventeen year

(44:57):
old daughter, my fourteen year old son, the actor Mike
Checklist and his family and we're we're smoking cigars. I
don't even smoke cigars, and certainly my kids don't smoke
cigars at least not that I know of. And we're
having this moment and it's on a show based on
a book I wrote. It was just one of the
greatest moments of my life. It really was one of

(45:18):
the most rewarding emotional moments of my life. And that
it's like, my parents don't care about sports at all,
my parents, but they see this and like you could
see the pride in them. I know it sounds corny,
but it's really true, like the pride that they have
and it means something to them. And even just people
you went to high school with, their college with, who
are like, oh my god, oh my god. It's cool

(45:39):
that it brings some light to people, especially during the pandemic,
during that rough spell, it just really brought something to
people into me. So it was it was freaking amazing.
It was great, And I think it's gonna be more
of that because now the seal is broken. We've all
seen you can cast magic, you can't cast you can
cast Therrel Strawberry, you can cast Dwight good In. Uh,

(46:04):
you know. I I think I just have always been
a fan, So I'm excited to see. I don't know
if you have a preference of if you could pick
any one of your books to be made next. I
don't know if you have a preference. But it's funny
the one book that has never been optioned, so different
books get option that's not a bragging point, like that
just happened. You write books, and people option books. The
one book that's never been optioned is my Walter Payton

(46:25):
book Sweetness. And I just consider his life to be
so dramatic and obviously coming from rural, rural Mississippi, becoming
the superstar megastar in Chicago and then really falling into
this post career depression and then having this kind of
curates his battle at the end of his life with
bioduct cancer. It just feels really narrative to me, but

(46:46):
nobody has shown any interest that would be the one though. Actually,
in a weird way, I love that speaking of rural Mississippi.
What drew you to Bret fire story? Because Gunslinger has
been one of my favorite books before you and I
ever discussed that. Yeah, it's actually funny. I don't want
to write a five book. Here's what happened. I Uh,
my dream book was a book about the USFL, the
old United States Football League from the nineteen eighties, and

(47:08):
I couldn't get a deal. Ever, I could not get
a deal for the USFL book. Nobody. My agent, who's great,
literally said to me Jeff, because I kept bringing it up,
He's like, nobody wants an f the usf AL book.
And I was like, I know I can get a deal.
I know I can get a deal. So publishing company
Holt Mifflin I pitched Fire because I thought he is iconic,
he's a really interesting story, etcetera, etcetera. But I said,

(47:30):
I'll do it, but I want to be able to
do this USFL book. So I took a little less
money for five and they let me write this USFL book,
and the USFL book made the New York Times list,
which was like a real vindictive moment for me, nothing
various moment for me. Far was fascinating. Five ended up
being one of the most interesting books I've ever worked on.
And one of the weirdest moments in my career period
is um I d mned his his sister Brandy on

(47:53):
Facebook before I went to Mississippi, and I said, Hey,
my name is Jeff Berrema, working a book. And this
is before Brett even said anything to me. And I
was like, I'm working on this book. I'm gonna be
in Mississippi's or anyway you want to get coffee. And
she said, well, DM me when you come down. Well,
I go to Mississippi, I mean the Kill, Mississippi where
breats from and um I d m her and She's like, well,
my mom and I are at the house. Why don't

(48:13):
you just come by the house? Now Brett Farve has
not agreed to talk to me, right, But I'm like okay,
and I uh. I go to the house. It's Brett's
childhood home on like Farv Lane in Mississippi Kill, Mississippi,
and I'm sitting there with his mom, Banita, who's lovely,
his sister Brandy lovely, and and we're talking and at

(48:34):
one point his mom says, so, has is Brett talking
to you for the book? And to me, this is
like this is the kiss of death. This is the
moment where they're like, oh, well, I go no, I
don't know if he's going to hern he hasn't agreed
to yet, and she goes all right, and she literally
sent me home with his scrap books. She sent me
home New York with scrap books which I borrowed photocophy

(48:57):
sent back. It was unbelievable ball and I remember this.
I was driving away from their house and I called
my wife, Katherine, and I'm like, I just had a
great experience with Brett Farre's mom and sister and she's like,
Brett hasn't agreed to talk to you. And I was like, yeah,
but they're really cool. They don't mind. And she's like,
don't you think that's a little weird? And I was

(49:18):
like I don't know, and she's like, it's really weird.
And then later on I was like, oh, that is
really weird. She's like, imagine if someone's doing a book
on you. You didn't want him to, and your mom
and dad just decided to talk anyway. But it worked out.
I mean it was great. You know what this is
like fast forward to now, this is what it's like
to have your parents on Twitter. People ask the stuff

(49:38):
all I think my mom tweeted Elon Musk the other
day something. I know. It's just like, well, that's like
when your parents are on to that's the modern day version.
Mama far with the scrap books. That's as well. I've
got to ask, since not everyone's read the book, what
is your favorite story? And obviously the narrative on Brett
Farve has changed since you wrote the book, but what

(50:00):
is your favorite Brett story from that book? Well, what
I really love is, um, this isn't a story about
kind of a whole thing. Is when he was playing
in high school in Mississippi, his dad, IRV, was a coach,
and Um, they had a halfback named Charles Burton who
was really good, but he was just your prototypical high
school halfback. He was like five nine, probably a buck sixty.

(50:21):
And here's your dad fire and he's dedicated to the run.
We're gonna run the ball, We're gonna run the ball.
You literally have one of the ten greatest quarterbacks in
NFL future quarterbacks in NFL history on your team. And
he threw the ball six times a game. Times of
games he would not throw and every now and then
Brett would disobey and launched some eighty yard and it

(50:42):
would be this magnificent moment. In the stands would go crazy,
and his dad would be furious at him, absolutely furious
at him for disobeying his orders that we're going to
run and gain four yards. And I just found the
dynamic between Brett and IRV, this old school, hardcore, disciplined
we're gonna do this coach and Brett, this wild stallion
who just wanted to launch the ball quarterback, and that,

(51:04):
you know, it's why you wound up Southern miss because
nobody knew about him. Literally nobody knew about Brett fire
He was didn't exist in a college football landscape. Are
you keeping up with what he's going through right now?
And what are your thoughts on it now that you're
pretty close to his story. I'll be totally honest about it.
I'm horrified and disgusted. I mean, Brett Farve, you're from Mississippi, right,

(51:25):
you're from Mississippi. It is a dirt poor state. That's
not me projecting it. It's factually a dirt poor state.
As a poor state in America, there is money that
is designated for welfare recipients. That is money that's needed
by people. That's not some some pork government pork to
have that money diverted and to be involved in some
kind of scheme where it's diverted to pay for a

(51:47):
volleyball arena at your alma mater because your daughter plays
volleyball there. If that's true, which it appears to be,
it doesn't just hurt my heart as a guy who
wrote that biography. It just discussed me as a human being.
So not a huge fan of that one. And kind
of on a lighter note, I know you're also not
a huge fan of the current Packer quarterback Aaron Rodgers.

(52:08):
In fact, i've heard you compare mc Kanye West. I've
got to note what is your experience like with Aaron
Rodgers and what kind of gets your goat about him?
All right, I don't know. I don't hate Aaron Rodgers like.
I think he's a great quarterback and guy. So when
I were I'll tell you when this is not the
personal reason. But when I was working on a five book,
I actually I knew he was playing at a golf
tournament and I met him off the greens at a

(52:29):
golf tournament and I was like, hey, I introduced my
He literally goes, because, yeah, I know who you are.
And I was like, I don't think you know who
He's like, I know who you are. I was like,
I'm working on this fire biography. He goes, oh, yeah,
I'll definitely talk call my agent, reach out to my agent,
and we'll set up a time. I called his agent repeatedly,
got blown off repeatedly. Then the book comes out and
there's a moment in the book when Aaron Rodgers first

(52:50):
met Brett five. They were in the Packers like cafeteria
the first time a camp together, and Rogers says to him, hey, grandpa,
and it really rubbed far of the wrong way. And
I got that story verified and verified and verified and verified,
and Rogers denied it, but I know it happened. And
I just find that kind of stuff annoying. So honestly, God,

(53:12):
I have no animals store him. I think he's a
great quarterback. I don't think he's a bad guy. I
don't see any reason he's a bad guy. That kind
of stuff annoys that out of me as a as
a writer, for sure. And think of just in your
daily life. You grab coffee with someone and you're telling
him a story that happened a couple of years ago,
and someone else says, no, that didn't happen. How frustrating
in your profession that you have to deal with that
I had. I'll tell you something I had. I won't

(53:34):
name names, but people can look it up. Regarding that book,
the five Book, there was a wide receiver who I
had in the book saying something and he cursed. He
cursed in the quote okay this is you can look
this up because it's google b and I had it
happened an he curse. This guy goes on Twitter and
called me a liar and said, anyone who knows me

(53:56):
knows I never curse. Blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah. I get a he am from another packer.
I can't even make this up. I get dam from
another packer who says, hey, call me. A very well
known packer. I call him and he's like I just
want you to know, Blank, the guy is totally full
of crap. Everyone knows full of crap. He's always been
full of crap. Don't believe him. Don't get bent out

(54:18):
of shape over this. So these are the journeys you
take in this wacky world of sports biography. Oh my gosh,
and we going to be the recipients of all this
nonsense and we love it. I'm having weird feelings because
that sounds like my conversation with my wife where I'm like, wait,
didn't you say I did not say that? Like, wait
a minute, I was sitting right there when you said it. No,

(54:39):
you don't. You're misremembering. She accuses me of misremembering. Are
we married to the name? Person? We might be? Might be?
Might be? Oh, thanks for letting me go further into
that story. I just I know I wanted to hear
your thoughts on that. What's the word about season two? Showtime?
Do we know? Do we have a date? Is it's happened?
I mean, do you? I don't. Well, I could have played.

(55:00):
I tried to figure it out. I don't think I
would have fit. So I'm I'm not mad at you
for not for me not being on showtime and it
was cast amazing, So I'm just ready for season two.
All I just want to say, episode six, season two,
I play a reporter briefly, and I filmed it two
weeks ago, is what I want to say to you,
Jerry in particularly, I was there for eight hours, maybe nine.

(55:22):
They shot the same scene a hundred times. Right. I
got home that night, I had a wig glued to
my head, okay, and sideburns glued to my face. I
was taking a shower the next morning and my head
is just like a tomato because I had an allergic
reaction to the glue they used to would hear it.
So I actually had to rush to Urgent Care because
everything was swelling on my waist. And I don't know,

(55:46):
like I mean serious, wait, serious question for you. I
know it isn't my show at your show, but like
average number of takes per scene in your life would
be what you did a TV show, So I will
say TV typically they would You could say they do
more because it's a different director every episode or most
like every other episode, and they want to make sure
they cover everything. With Entourage, for instance, we did a

(56:08):
lot of like Warner Is like only one shot. But
we'd have to do that like times, because if you
have one screw up on the line, you've got to
start over again. You can't just pick it up. Yeah. There,
every now and then there's these directors where I will
lean over to a fell act and be like, Yeah,
this person is just gonna shoot every possible angle and
just figure it out. They figure it out later in

(56:29):
the edit, you know. They let me shoot as much
as I That's like for you would be like, I'm
just gonna get as much information as I can. I'll
figure out the book later when I get there. That's
sometimes what happens with TV. Let's just get as much
coverage as we can and we'll figure out what the
scene actually looks like later. Not all the time. I
did a story years ago for a TV guide years
ago about a TV show called Love Monkey, and it

(56:50):
was with Tom Kavanaugh, Jason Priestley. Okay, and it's my
first time on the set and they shoot the same
scene times. I'm literally why I'm there, And at first
I'm exciting them, just bored. And at the end I
was sitting down to interview Jason pretty saying, I said, um,
I'm gonna be honest, man, this seems kind of boring.
He goes, bro, you have no idea, And I was

(57:11):
thinking about that over and over again shooting my scene
for the eightieth time last week. I think a big
underrated part of acting in general is just how to
not make it feel like it's Take sixteen and brokering
out your energy. That's why there's coffee too. Coffee gets
me through some of those, uh, some of those moments.

(57:31):
I can't thank you enough for coming on. I'm super excited.
Congrats on this book. Whenever I know there's a Perlman
book coming, I sort of trying to clear my schedule
as much as I can because I I gotta get
to it quick before people start spoiling it for me.
So yeah, my Christmas is kind of set. I think
I'm gonn actually a babysitter to read this book to
taste us where the kids aren't screaming while I'm reading.

(57:52):
But yeah, the last folk here, the life and myth
of bo Jackson. Couldn't think of a better topic for
a book. And thanks for coming on, and I hope
we get the talk against that means you're writing another book.
We're written another book. Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you
guys so much. I appreciate it, of course, Yeah, thank
you so much. Okay, it's time for one of my

(58:31):
favorite parts of this show. Let's get this some Week
thirteen wagering and more with bet MGM betting analysts, our
odds on favorite Peter Andrew. Peter, how you doing. Have
you recovered from the talking to I sort of gave
you last week? It felt a little bit sweeter after
the Niners, the Chiefs, the Bills, the Dolphins all took
care of business. I think the the analogy I have

(58:52):
for last week is I just needed that little blue single,
and now this is when the batting average comes back up.
I was to seventeen. Now I'm back my way toward.
So it needed to happen. You just need that win
under your belt and then you can keep going to seventy.
I don't think there's one player on the Yankees you've
got at two seventy. You've got to seventy. You're you're
like an All star. That's a good point I'm talking.

(59:14):
So yeah, you hit your safe play. It came through.
You had all the favorites in the world last week. Bills, Dolphins,
Niners Chiefs to win. You basically were even for the week.
But now I think, and I said it earlier in
the show, I think week thirty, this slate is unbelievable.
I think it's gonna be hard to pick and hard
to handicap and pick winners because I do think this

(59:35):
is a little sneak preview of the playoffs in a
lot of ways, because a lot of playoff teams or
potential playoff teams facing off. So Mr Blup's single what
do you got for us this week? Week thirteam, So
you'll notice I've taken a little bit of a different
direction here. There's a couple of teased point spreads, but
I've gone a lot overs and unders, so totals to me,

(59:58):
I think he's the player this week because is there's
so many close games. Start first just Thursday night, we'll
get out of the play the the one game part
of that that's finally gonna hit. I think this is
a safe one but still really really good value. So
we saw Harris go out last week for the Paths,
so Montre Stevenson is the the premier back. Now He's
probably gonna playing about of snaps any time touchdown for

(01:00:20):
him Isaia McKenzie on the Bills, he has been a
red zone target even with his size. I think that
kind of size and speed up the middle. I think,
you know, had a really good week last week on Thanksgiving,
got him to score any time, and then I've just
taken Bills minus four and a half, so cover the
spread those two anytime touchdowns. That's plus a thousand, so
ten bucks. One unit gives you ten bucks after that

(01:00:41):
steak in winnings. So I think it's a nice little
wet the beat kind of gets you into the football week.
So to start things off, I like that. I feel
good about all three. Okay, so that's you got one unit,
tend to win one ten, so you've got nine left
to go. So I feel like that was the appetizer.
That was a little bread and soup. Now let's see
it we got coming in hardcore. Yeah, so three units

(01:01:03):
on each of these other plays. First one, Giants commanders
under forty one. I think Heineke last three out of
five weeks under twenty points. Uh so their offense has
has been struggling. I think Giants have a little bit
extra rest because of the Thanksgiving Day games, so they're
essentially on over a week of rest. I think that
defense will be ready to roll and Giants offense is

(01:01:25):
gonna struggle. I think Slaton's probably their only target in
terms of the pass threat, and we all have seen
over the last couple of weeks what the defensive line
for the Commanders can do. So I see a low
scoring game, probably see the Giants win in this one
home at MetLife, but I can certainly see a twenty
to thirty seventeen kind of game under forty one. That's

(01:01:46):
the play there, Finns Niners. I think this is wildly
miss priced in terms of the number of forty six
and a half. I get it, Niners number one defense
in the league. This to me is a high scoring game.
I think Fins probably have proved have the best offense,
if not second or third best offense in the league,
right around the Chiefs and the Eagles. I can see

(01:02:06):
them putting up thirty points this game. I think it's
gonna be relatively close. I can see a field goal
game here, but this is not going to be a
thirteen nothing Saints Niners game like last week to re
kill Wattle, no joke. Most they're already talking a little
bit trash about his old team going back to the Bay.
I can see this one being super high scoring. It
kind of reminded me of SATs Niners a couple of

(01:02:28):
years ago, where it was like forty seven, forty five,
something crazy like that. So I see some points here
and then last three units. Pains me to do this,
But Dolphins plus ten, I think they keep it. Like
I said, close ten points for arguably the second best
or third best team in the a f C going
to San Francisco. I think that's a real fair number

(01:02:49):
to hit. Brown's minus one, returning to Shaun Watson. Oh,
by the way, against the Texans former team, who are horrendous,
they're an easy one. That's a layup. That's a layup.
So pushing that down from seven to one is seems
very very logical. And Brown's team probably not in the playoffs,
but they're fighting towards it. So it's a must win

(01:03:11):
for them, especially against probably the worst team in the NFL.
And then Chiefs at the Bengals over forty five and
a half, So tease that down. That to me is
another high scoring game. You got the Bengals who have
who have clearly righted. The ship Chiefs are playing as
good as anybody this year. Kelsey's on fire, Mahomes is
on fire. So to say that there's not gonna be
forty five points the game is I think kind of crazy.

(01:03:32):
So taking the over there the others obviously minus one ten,
that one's plus one forty, so that's seventy two. I
really like the card this week, And like I said,
I've stayed away from some of these points spreads because
there's a lot of really really close games. So feel
good with with the extra six points on the couple
of those. But but all in know, I think totals
of the move this week, Jerry, is there anything there

(01:03:52):
that is a red flag concern for you? I won't
say red flag. I like what you did with the
Dolphins Niners and like kind of focusing on that game.
I do think there's some points and if you're right
on the over, then you're probably right that that game
will be less than ten. And even though you're a
Niners fan, I mean, all right, so if the Niners
went by seven, I'm sure you won't be crying. You'll
still be very happy. If I had to flag something,

(01:04:15):
I'm not even flagging it. I'm just that Brown's minus
one at Houston. I know, like, I don't think on
the Texans. Again, not hot on the Texans, but we're
talking about a quarterback who hasn't played football in two years.
I'm not saying I'm hot on the Texans. And by
the way, if the if Houston beats the Browns, that
only makes the Browns draft pick more valuable, which Houston owns.

(01:04:36):
Not saying I like the Texans at all because they
are the worst team in football and I think they've
completely given up there now shuffling around quarter I'm just
that one's got my attention a little bit because I
actually do think it's gonna be a close game. But
I do think the Browns prevailed. Other than that, I'm
with that, And I like that you picked the Giants
commanders under don't pick the Giants anymore, Pete. Here's why.

(01:04:56):
I just don't want anyone just keep us underdog. I
don't want to you want like the Giants win when
everyone thinks we're gonna lose. I don't like when people
get people got on the train and we've lost two
in a row. I don't I don't even like that
I would get off the train, just let them, let
them win in peace fair enough. At some point they
have to be taken seriously though. I get your under
the radar comment, but like, they're not the best team,

(01:05:18):
but they're a decent team. There there's the most injured
te sure, so I get it. What about if I
can shift to the other New York team. What's your
take on Mike White going into Minnesota. This is a
game that I kind of I didn't put it in here,
but I might take Jets money line. I think they're
probably a five or six point dog, but I think
I might take them money. So you want to hear

(01:05:39):
what a maniac emotional better I could be. I was
perusing bet MGM when I'm making my picks, and then
also someone sent me the trailer for like the next
episode of that show White Lotus, which I'm a fan of,
and that show creator his name is Mike White. So
to me, that was a clear cut sign that Mike

(01:06:00):
White and the Jets are gonna Look. I have a
lot of Jets fans of my life. I love to
make fun of them. It's really hard to make fun
of them because they are really really good and look
I think Mike White played a little bit last year.
He had and then he played a little bit and
got destroyed. So curious to see what happens. But yeah,
it's it's a great story and it's a bit hard
lesson for Zack Wilson. The one thing I would say

(01:06:22):
about Mike White is this shows to me. I don't
want to bash Zack Wilson, but look how bad Garrett
Wilson has been in the weeks that Zack Wilson started
the first couple of weeks, when Flacco was playing two touchdowns,
ten plus receptions, hundred plus yards, Garrett Wilson, who's arguably
one of the better wide receivers coming out of the
draft last year, five games of nothing, it felt like

(01:06:45):
then Mike White comes in, ninety yards, two touchdowns, ton
of targets. They're using him any which way, like it's
exploiting your talent with different guys. That shows to me
that Zack Wilson is way too just kind of single
minded in terms of what he's trying to do. And
what I really like about Robert Salo, which you know
he was getting a lot of heat and remember the
whole I'm keeping the receipts and everyone kind of laughed, like,

(01:07:06):
all right, keep him, do whatever you want when him,
we don't care. I think the Zach Wilson benching, yes,
his play maybe warranted the benching, but I think that
press conference was like the final thing. And I think
when you see your coach hold the star young quarterback accountable, like, hey,
you can't go up after a bad game and basically
said you weren't responsible for that I did. Coaching wise,

(01:07:27):
I think he fully has that team behind him. It
pains me to say that we just did basically a
two and a half minute segment on the Jets for
no reason at all other than the fact that they're
good and they're a great story. Hurts my soul. Last thing,
did Zach Wilson play his last game? Barring an injury
to someone else? Did he play his last game as
a Jet starting quarterback? I don't believe so unless we

(01:07:50):
get a really truly magical look. Mike White's a great story.
I think he's very talented. He makes the easy throw.
It was against the Bears, let's not forget, and they're
not really even fielding a team at this point, so
you can make a believer out of me beating the
Buffaloes and the New England's and you know, some tougher competition.
So no, and he's what twenty two do you give

(01:08:12):
up on that? Twenty three or twenty three? Like, I
don't think you could fully say it's it's over. I
gotta get like he's allowed to make a mistake and
grow from it. So my answer would be no. Yeah,
I feel like he'll be like a Sam Donald Like
I feel like he's going to kind of disappear on
us here because I think his character has shown he's
lost the locker room. Teammates clearly don't want to play

(01:08:32):
for him. They want to play for Mike White, like
you mentioned that Garrett Wilson example. But I think that
Robert Sala doing this was the right decision as an
organization that's ready to win now. But it certainly didn't
do Zach any favors because this is kind of to
do that to a young quarterback's confidence is kind of
a final stab. We have to stop talking about the Jets.
I'm gonna have a heart attack on the air. Literally

(01:08:54):
gonna have a heart attack on the air. Alright, Pete,
let me just say I do like what you got
on the menu this week and uh, if this happens,
you might have to graduate from blooperpete to uh bloop
single to you. Maybe it's a double, maybe it's a triple.
Maybe you touch them all. So thank you as always,
Peter Andrew, good luck this week. Thanks guys, h thank

(01:09:31):
you Peter, and thanks everyone for listening. Make sure you
follow but MGM across all social media platforms and subscribe
to the show so you never miss an episode, because
next week is a really good one. Jerry too. We
have Michael Lombardi joining us. I know you've been campaigning
for him. He's been fantastic on the show before. That'll
be fun.

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The Life and Myth of Bo Jackson with Jeff Pearlman

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