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July 30, 2025 53 mins

In this conversation, KnowledgeWorkx founder Marco Blankenburgh interviews Roberta Saffels—Brazilian-American psychologist, 25-year expat, and positive-leadership consultant based in Doha, Qatar. Roberta explains how Positive Psychology shifts focus from “fixing what’s wrong” to enabling people and organisations to flourish—from zero to plus ten. She describes Positive Leadership’s practice of spotlighting strengths first, then “calibrating” over-used talents rather than patching weaknesses.

The dialogue explores why wellbeing at work is tightly linked to the quality of a leader’s relationships, and how Inter-Cultural Intelligence (ICI) provides the missing language for navigating honour-shame dynamics, collective agency, and communication styles in the Gulf region. Marco and Roberta share real-world stories—from Qatari start-ups to global NGOs—showing how an appreciative, culturally agile approach unlocks engagement and performance.

Roberta also previews her upcoming Positive Leadership Academy, a 12-week formation journey blending cultural intelligence, emotional intelligence, and an AI “nudge coach” to embed new habits.

Listen in to discover practical ways to shift your leadership from problem-solving to possibility-finding—and help your team thrive across cultures.

In this podcast you will learn:

  • How Positive Psychology moves leaders beyond “removing distress” to creating flourishing, high-engagement cultures.
  • Why spotlighting existing strengths shifts the whole organisation’s performance more effectively than fixing weaknesses.
  • How Inter-Cultural Intelligence helps leaders navigate honour-shame dynamics, collective agency, and communication styles in the Gulf region.
  • Practical ways to balance credibility and collaboration—priming conversations so teams contribute without leaders losing face.
  • The vision behind the new 12-week Positive Leadership Academy and how its AI “nudge coach” embeds lasting behaviour change.

Learn more about Roberta's work here: https://robertasaffels.com/

Additional suggested reading:

-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to the Unlocking Cultural Agility
podcast, where we bring youinsights and stories from some
of the most advancedintercultural practitioners
working around the world to helpyou become interculturally
agile and succeed in today'sculturally complex world.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international

(00:30):
Director of KnowledgeWigs, whereevery day, we help individuals
and companies achieve relationalsuccess in that same complex
world.
Thank you everyone for joiningfor another episode of Unlocking

(00:54):
Cultural Agility, and today Ihave a very special guest with
me, roberta Saffols, who iscurrently living in Qatar, doha,
and we got connected a fewyears ago and Roberta has been

(01:14):
focusing on leadershipdevelopment with a very special
emphasis, and the more Ilistened to her, the more I had
the chance to work with her, themore excited I got about having
her tell her story on thispodcast.
So welcome, roberta.
I really appreciate you makingthe time and I'm very much
looking forward to thisconversation because I think
there's a lot that youcontribute with your expertise

(01:37):
into the world of interculturalagility.
So welcome to this podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Thank you.
Thank you, marco.
It's been a pleasure tocollaborate and to work together
, and also for me to learn somuch from you when it comes to
intercultural agility.
So I'm very excited that we getto have this conversation, and
just for the content of theconversation itself, but then we
get to record it and share withothers.
It's even more fun.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
So I'm looking forward to it so more fun, so
I'm looking forward to it.
So, instead of me, introducingyou.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Who is Roberta and what are you involved with?
Ah, so I'm Roberta Saffos.
I am Brazilian, american, basedin Doha, qatar, but I've been an
expat for more than 20 yearsnow almost 25 years and so I've
lived in Europe, I've lived inthe US, I've been an expat for
more than 20 years now almost 25years and so I've lived in
Europe, I've lived in the US,I've lived in Lebanon and now in

(02:32):
the GCC, and I absolutely loveand I'm fascinated with the
whole world of mixing ofcultures.
My background is in psychologyand positive psychology.
I have a master's degree fromthe University of Pennsylvania
and had the honor and theprivilege of learning under the

(02:53):
father of positive psychology,dr Martin Seligman, and it was
an incredible experience and itgave me a lot more tools and
vocabulary to talk about thethings that I'm already
passionate about, which is humanflourishing.
And then here in Qatar, I havemy own business with leadership

(03:16):
development and corporatetrainings and doing some
consulting around thrivingcompany cultures, thriving
company cultures, and so that'sa little bit of what I do, on
top of being a mom of two girlsthat are lovely and keep me busy
and then also having family allover the world.
My husband is American, so weactually are a multicultural

(03:38):
family, so we get to practicesome of this in our own
household, which is fun thatlast part seems to be a
reoccurring theme in our network.
I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Practice at home what you do professionally as well.
Yeah, so you mentioned positivepsychology.
You focus on leadershipdevelopment, so tell us a little
bit more about that.
What is positive psychology andwhat is it not?
Maybe that might also behelpful.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, tell us a bit more so, excuse me, um, positive
psychology is the what we callthe study of the scientific
study of what makes life worthliving.
So we're looking at thepositive side of life in terms
of, if you think aboutpsychology and the human
psychological experience on acontinuum and I don't love the

(04:32):
continuum too much, but I'llexplain to you why.
So traditional psychology tendsto look at the human experience
from the point of a zero asthey they are not experiencing
any psychological issues tominus 10.
So if I have a psychologicalissue, I'm experiencing anxiety,
depression, you name it.
That's where most throughoutthe last few decades, where

(04:57):
traditional psychology hasreally in and looked in and
really researched and tried tounderstand and then come to
remediate those symptoms.
Right, but what?
There's a movement that startedwith.
Well, if you back it up, it'sback to Maslow's and humanistic

(05:21):
psychology.
But Dr Seligman has we call himmarty, by the way, so marty um
has when he took on the role ofthe president of the american
psychological association.
That's when that shift startedhappening.
Looking at the human experiencefrom the zero to the plus 10.
So looking at where you know aregular person, how do, what do

(05:46):
they need to be doing to reallyexperience thriving and to
really experience well-being,because they might not be
depressed, they might not beanxious, but they might not be
experiencing the fullness oflife.
So, which we call that, thelanguishing right, that that
state of like you're not reallyhaving issues, but you're also
not living out to the potentialof the life that you could have.

(06:09):
And as the studies progressed,as the science became more
robust, it is clear that whatgets you to zero is not what is
going to get you to plus 10.
The skills are very different,the tools are very different.
The tools are very different,the strategies are very
different.
I mean there's some thatoverlap, but most of them are

(06:32):
going to be very different.
And sometimes you can for me Ican work with somebody that is
experiencing anxiety and stillhelp them flourish, but I'm not
treating the anxiety, I'mhelping build some of those
other tools that are going tohelp them thrive while they
manage the anxiety with otherprofessionals.
So that is a little bit of whatpositive psychology is, and I

(06:56):
love to bring that into theleadership sphere.
One of the reasons I mean I'malready passionate about
leadership was before I did mymaster's.
But the research is very clearthat one of the most impactful
relationships that affect ourwell is not taken care of, is
not cultivating, you know, it'snot creating these conditions

(07:33):
for thriving and there isfriction and that is actually
correlates to really low levelsof well-being and thriving.
So I look at it from the impact.
So if I help a leaderunderstand and give them the
tools, then there is a rippleeffect of well-being and
thriving.
That can be done because thatperson is able to then carry

(07:56):
that into their work environment.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Fantastic.
Now, at face value, it makes alot of sense.
At the same time, an outsiderwho doesn't know the world of
psychology might say well,positive psychology is that.
Then you know sweeping all thechallenges under the rug and you
know whatever needs to be fixed.

(08:20):
We won't talk about that.
The pendulum could swim to theother side you mentioned, is it?
You know, minus 10 to 0, 0 to10.
Explain to us you know what isthe the word positive?
What is that in practice?
What does that really mean?
Do you?
Do you forget about thenegatives or the things that are
not working?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
no, no, absolutely not we.
So a lot of people.
Some of the critique ofpositive psychology is that it's
too Pollyanna, you're too naive, and the reality is not that.
So when we think about it, Ilike to talk about it from the
perspective of optimism.
But optimism is actuallylooking at a situation as is,

(09:05):
not pretending it's not andbelieving that things are going
to get better.
Yeah, and then you can bring inhope theory, which is not only
the belief that things can getbetter, but looking at what can
I do to influence the situationto make it better and finding
diverse pathways to get there.

(09:28):
So, in to some degree, it'sactually quite the opposite.
It's because, when we make thedistinction between optimism and
pessimism, optimism is anapproach mechanism I go towards
the problem because I believethe problem can be dealt with
and we are going to deal with it, whereas pessimism thinks that

(09:49):
the world is going to collapseand there is no hope.
So it tends to have anavoidance mechanism where, then,
I'm not going to even go there,and that's why like very
conservative in terms of likenot wanting to take any risks
because the there is noresources to overcome the, the
problems and the difficulties.
So it's actually quite theopposite, but most people seem

(10:12):
to assume that, oh, if you'retalking about positive, then
only positive vibes, and it'slike it's not about positive
vibes.
It's an actual, robust science,quite scrutinized, and it's
really that idea of I'm gonnaface the world with a positive
outlook in terms of hopefulness.

(10:34):
So I see the problem, I see theissues and I'm gonna go forward
towards solving it rather thanjust feeling powerless and
hopeless.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah.
I like that picture ofavoidance versus embracing all
that's in front of me and movingforward with it.
So how do you then take thatinto positive leadership?
How does that work compared to,let's say, more traditional
ways of leadership development?

Speaker 2 (11:07):
So just to kind of backtrack just a little bit in
terms of like.
So positive psychology hasstudied the human experience and
then naturally, a branch ofpositive, you know, came off
from positive psychology goinginto how do we study those
phenomenons within organizations, which is what is called has a
terrible name, by the way it'sjust positive organizational

(11:30):
scholarship is the name of thefield and within POS we have
positive leadership.
And so in positive leadershipwe look at organizations that
are doing exceptionally well.
So not only in the typicalmeasures, the typical outcomes

(11:52):
that organizations focus onprofit and, you know, growth and
all of that yes, that we'relooking at exceptional results
in those areas but also in termsof retention, engagement, so
the full picture.
So when an organization is doingsuper well in all of those
spheres, what positiveleadership researchers did was

(12:15):
to really go in and hone in onthose outliers on the positive
side, to try to understand whatare the practices that are
creating those types of resultsand impact.
How do we then study it,amplify it and then multiply it?
So how do we learn from thosepractices?
And, rather than focusing ontrying to get the people that

(12:39):
are underperforming to performit within the average, we're
looking at the people that areexceptionally, the performing
exceptionally well within thesame context and environment,
learning their strategies andthen teaching to everybody.
And I like to think about it asa bell curve.
Right, if I teach the people onthe left side of the bell curve

(13:00):
how to get to the middle, thebell curve doesn't really change
much.
But if I t, if I take what Ilearned from the people on the
right side of the bell curve tothe hall of the bell curve, then
the hull bell curve movesforward, and that, I think, is a
powerful strategy that positiveleadership brings to the
workplace.

(13:21):
As to, yes, we haveinterventions, yes, we have
tools that we can use, but Ihonestly start by trying to
understand the context what isalready working here and what
are the resources that wealready have and leverage those
resources to then try to movethat curve to where's the right
side and and so that it becomesvery unique to every group, to

(13:45):
every organization, to everyteam, because it's gonna be what
they bring to the table.
And how do we leverage that tothen work on some of the things
that are not working?
We are not going to pretendthat problems don't exist, but
how do we leverage the, thetools, the strengths, the
strategies that are already inplace, rather than trying to?

(14:05):
You know, sometimes what I seein organizations is they they
almost cancel the stuff that isworking to try to sort out
what's not working, which is avery, very sad strategy, because
you're like you just took allof your resources and you've
yeah, it's not strategic at all.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
We call that the infinity loop of organizational
development.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, and that I think is where I do a
distinctive, because I don'tcome in trying to find problems
or, in some cases, forconsultants invent problems.
Right, they come up with aproblem urgency.
I'm not, I'm looking for whatis right and how do we amplify
that and how do we spread thatthroughout the organization.
So it's a much more positiveexperience overall much more

(14:56):
positive experience overall.

Speaker 1 (14:56):
So to me it totally makes sense what you're saying,
but it would be helpful, I think, just to get an example either
from your coaching or from theway you've engaged with
organizations, can you?

Speaker 2 (15:05):
think of a recent example.
Yeah, let me tell you a storyabout so.
When I was doing my masters, Idecided to actually do a
research.
I didn't have, I decided toactually do a research.
I didn't have to, but I wantedto do a research here in Qatar
and so I studied Qatari leaders,which traditionally are quite
criticized by the expatcommunity because, I think,

(15:27):
majorly because there is acultural misunderstanding.
Personally, but to me, I didn'tbuy into the whole idea of what
I was hearing from peoplebecause it was like, if that's
all they are, how did they buildthis country?
And I mean, qatar is amazing,extremely developed.
I mean I'm a big fan.

(15:48):
And so I went in with thatappreciative lenses, trying to
understand what are the positivetraits of Qatari leaders.
And it was fascinating becausejust having those conversations,
people were just so much morewelcoming and themselves went so
much deeper in theconversations.

(16:11):
Deeper in the conversations.
So one of the engagements I didwith a startup here, um, after
the research, I decided to kindof use that same approach and
started by I was working withthis c level and I wanted to
really map out the strengths.
So I started with what wecalled appreciative dialogues in
which, uh, we met with each oneof the leaders for an hour and

(16:33):
a half and all we did was totalk about what was working,
what were they proud of, whatwere the examples of things that
were really exceptional.
But it still blows me away.
It's how how, in an hour and ahalf, we got to so much depth of
the experience and even somepersonal things that they shared

(16:58):
that I was like still.
I still, to this day, find itreally fascinating that, coming
in from that route ofappreciating, honoring and
really looking at the individualfrom the perspective of a
resourceful being that hasalready dealt with a lot of
things and comes into theenvironment with a lot to give

(17:22):
and to try to bring that out andname it and really Appreciate
it, how that has become such abig open door to then the
interventions that we bringlater, which then are a bit more
on the let's adjust some ofthese things that might not be
working, and so we look at theperspective, calibrating some of

(17:45):
those strengths that we find.
What I like to tell is likeoftentimes and I know you've
seen this in your experience too, marco, but you have a leader
that is very passionate, forexample, and they can come
across quite pushy and demanding, and so to ask them to not be

(18:07):
more passionate.
They are passionate, that'sbeautiful, that's part of what
they bring to the table, but,like, help them calibrate that
passion so that they can thenreally engage with the people.
So I look at calibratingstrengths more than fixing
weaknesses, because we actuallytend to do a lot more damage
with an overuse of a strengththan we do with our weakness.

(18:32):
So that's a lot of my work toreally look at the leaders and
say, okay, what is the strengthbehind this behavior that maybe
the team is struggling with, oryou know of the differences
within the team and looking atthe strength behind each of the
individuals and what they'rebringing, and then help them see

(18:52):
that as something that they canbuild on each other but also
keep each other accountable whenit comes to overuse of those
strengths and how that can kindof get in the way.
And to this day, the beautifulthing about this startup that I
still work with them on aregular basis is people still

(19:13):
remember those conversations andthey still feel empowered by
those conversations, which is tome, I mean, amazing yeah, we'll
come back to it, but you knowit, it aligns very much with
what we call the three colors ofworldview litmus test.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
so you're're doing right by people, you're honoring
people and you createempowering, life-giving
conversations with them.
So we got to know each other afew years back now, and then you
decided to join theIntercultural Intelligence
Certification certification.

(20:00):
You already have an impressiveacademic and professional resume
, so what motivated you to jointhe certification?

Speaker 2 (20:05):
I think from having lived overseas for so long and
have, you know, worked with thislanguage of multiculturalism
and having some understanding ofwhat it is and what the
differences that people bring, Irealized that I assume
everybody was immersed in thoselanguages and in those

(20:26):
understandings.
And to my surprise, when Istarted really digging, like in
my context, people don't talkabout it and even when they talk
about it, they talk about it ingeneral terms oh, indians are
like this, americans are likethis, and it's like that is such
a poor expression of theindividual experience.
Like if you're going to compareme to every Brazilian or the

(20:50):
average Brazilian, it's going tobe a very big misrepresentation
of who I am, because I amBrazilian from my background but
I lived 10 years in the US, Ilived in the Middle East, I've
been all over the place.
I'm no longer, if I ever wasthat average and so realizing
that leaders don't have thelanguage to be able to organize

(21:17):
in their heads those differences, so then they become quite
binary in terms of what's rightand what's wrong and they can't
really understand nuance of.
You know, this is a perspective, that's a perspective, and both
perspectives are valid.
And how do we find that placewhere we both understand each
other, or that I can theninterpret what's going on

(21:40):
accurately, because if I'm onlyinterpreting from my cultural
lenses, I am most oftenmisinterpreting what's going on,
the miss perceiving the reality.
And so, for me, I wanted to beequipped with not just my own
knowledge, but to be able topass this on to other people,
because it's like for me, Ithink, of the cultural agility

(22:03):
I've told you several times.
It's like, I think it's itneeds to be a, like a second
language.
I think about it in terms ofsecond language.
I need to be able to speak thatlanguage to be able to then
create those environments whereeverybody can thrive, because if
I don't speak the language ofmy people, the people that I'm
leading, then I I'm not going toconnect to the core of who they

(22:26):
are.
For them to actually be able tobring that in terms of feeling
know, a sense of dignity andhonor and feeling appreciated
and valued.
I need to be able to speak formy own sake, I need to be able
to make sense of it, but then,as I'm leading others, I need to
be able to then understandwhere they're coming from and

(22:46):
how to create that third culturespace where we all can coexist
and bring our best to thesurface, where we all can
coexist and bring our best tothe surface.
And so for me it was very muchlike how do I learn to equip
others with that and speak thatlanguage?
And so I've learned a lotmyself that I thought I already

(23:08):
knew, and then I realized thatthere's so much there that we
can bring to leaders andhonestly, not only in
multicultural environments perse.
I think they're like when Ithink about my 10 years in

(23:29):
America, I think about some ofthose racial tensions that are
there and the minorities, andyou know, with the minorities
lot, sometimes it's clear thereare some cultural differences,
but when it comes especiallywith racial tensions.
I remember telling my friendsI'm like I think what you're
talking about is a culturaldifference right and I think,
the language of culture in thosespaces, which would be much
more helpful and much moreproductive than if, uh, than

(23:53):
trying to mix between, with youknow, racial tensions and
history.
That kind of brings a baggageto the conversation, whereas
when we're talking about culture, it's a much.
I feel like it doesn't have thesame baggage and and like
history, the weight, the abilityto actually negotiate some of

(24:18):
those things, it's yeah, it'sthere, you're raising.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
You're raising some really good points there.
Um, that last point youmentioned about you know,
sometimes, although we mightcarry the same passport, what's
between us could be a culturalissue.
I still remember we're workingnow for a number of years with
an NGO in the US who's focusedon youth at risk, typically in
bigger cities.
There are over 50 locations andI still remember when the

(24:46):
leadership team, after a numberof sessions, they stopped and
they said said we now realizethat all these years the work
that we do with young people inthe, in the cities, is actually
intercultural work and that wasa huge paradigm shift for them.
They fully embraced the ICIapproach and it really has

(25:08):
helped them to think about howthey engage with young people,
their families, families, theneighborhoods etc.
In a more interculturally agileway.
And the other thing that youmentioned just now is you're an
experienced intercultural person.
You know so and we've seen thatwith our ICI certifications.

(25:29):
The average amount ofexperience that people have is
over 20 years typically.
So it's not about how muchexperience you have, but one of
our practitioners, chrisO'Shaughnessy.
He always says learning toexplain the why and transfer the
skill in a systematic way iswhat ICI brings to what you

(25:57):
intuitively already do well.
So you know, I always compareit to.
You know, I'm not a golf player, but if I barely know what to
do on the golf course, but if Imeet somebody who's really
really good in golf but itdoesn't know how to break it
down into little steps for meand explain the why, and you

(26:21):
know here's how you start andhere's how you keep going Then I
will never learn how to play.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
And and I find the same with with ICI, it's
breaking it down, creating aneutral language, and I'm using
that then to enhance your ownability and your own experience,
but also transfer it, as yousaid yeah now, and a lot of what
we do in coaching is naming theyou know the issue, to then

(26:46):
have agency over it and I thinkwith the language of
intercultural agility, you'reable to then, you know, identify
what is the dynamic that'shappening, what is going on here
, and then to have you know thatability to then manage it.
If you don't name it, you can'tmanage it, you can't

(27:06):
self-manage if you don'tunderstand what's going on.
And so when you actually andthen being able to teach that to
others.
It's fascinating to me everytime I talk about the three
colors of worldview, which is,you know, it's an easier thing
to explain Everybody's like.
It's like a light bulb goes offand they go.
I want to know more.
Yesterday, last night, I wastalking to a friend who is in

(27:29):
the big events management soolympics, world cup and all that
and she told me like I want toknow more about this thing that
you keep talking about, thishonor shame thing that you keep
talking about in this context,because I want to be able to
understand the people I'm around.
And I was telling her like well, you need to come to one of the

(27:50):
trainings so that youunderstand deeper and we need to
do an assessment so that youcan understand where you're
coming from.
But just people are hungry forthat understanding and that just
gives us a very structured wayof teaching them how to look at
the world around them, how tolook at themselves, and it's

(28:11):
powerful.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
Now positive leadership, when you bring those
two worlds together, theintercultural and positive
leadership, positive psychology.
Positive psychology andleadership do have their roots
more in the West.
So on a three colors, you knowwe use the three colors of
worldview language.
That's much more of aninnocence, guilt, a right, wrong

(28:34):
way of thinking.
Maybe I, you know, I'm not theexpert, you're the expert here,
but just thinking about it, isit more individual
accountability versus communityaccountability?
It's very much, you know,giving your creating a voice for
people.
Even just the examples you gaveearlier on creating

(28:56):
opportunities for people to telltheir story.
You would use the word agency.
That's very much an innocence,guilt-oriented word.
The word agency, that's verymuch an innocence, guilt
oriented word.
Individual accountability wordis it bias as a field?
What could you say to that?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
I think it's changing .
I think there is a bias,because the research is mostly
has been done, you know,historically in the west,
although there's quite a bitmore happening now in asia and
in the Middle East, but it'sstill heavily Western centric
and so the research subject arealso Western.
So that tends to be.
But the field is changing,which I find fascinating because

(29:36):
the whole concept ofindividualism is being
challenged.
So when we think about themodel of well-being from the
basic motto from Seligman isPERMA, which is positive,
emotion, engagement,relationships.
And he will tell you, if youhave to choose one, choose
relationships and that is theone that is the most conducive

(30:01):
to well-being, quality of yourrelationships, most conducive to
well-being, quality of yourrelationships.
And so I think the research isactually shifting and realizing
that that more communalexperience has a lot of wealth
in it and it's quite powerful.
But I they are learning thelanguage for it.

(30:22):
They don't have language for it.
So they would actually benefitfrom, uh, you know, learning
about, uh, intercultural agilityand and that language, because
they are trying to and likeright now it's the big thing is
like you are not an island.
You can't live in isolation.
You need to have a community,especially the us, that that

(30:43):
strive for individualism andthat on, you know, guilt,
innocence push has left peopleneglected and so you have the
loneliness epidemic epidemic,and they in the in america where
even the, the former um us uhsurgeon, did a whole like he

(31:05):
pushed for well-being and theirwell-being agenda.
So there is definitely thatportion when it comes to agency.
That is a lot interpreting tothe individual agency.
But I was fascinated.
I was with a friend not longago.
I was in Dubai, actually for arefresh for my coaching skills,

(31:29):
and we were all people fromdifferent cohorts of the same
company and I was talking tosomebody from Afghanistan that
does the work in Afghanistan andleads and coaches some of their
leaders there and she wasdescribing this afghani leader
coming to her and saying I wantto work on becoming a person of

(31:50):
integrity, and then they, youknow, exploring the different
things that this person could doand of course she's very aware
of the gender dynamic, thecultural dynamic and you know
the whole idea of agency andcommunity as the center of the
unit, of the functioning of thesociety.
But then he talked about well,maybe I can sit at the end of

(32:15):
the day and reflect on my dayand reflect on what how did I
act with integrity, where did Iact with integrity and where I
didn't act with integrity?
With integrity, where did I actwith integrity and when I
didn't act with integrity?
And I thought it was fascinatingbecause this is a person that,
in that context, is very muchlike with an under the, the
paternal, you know, guidance,where father's going to tell

(32:37):
them what to do and what careerto pursue and what is good and
what's right.
But with a little bit of agencyin terms of like, I can do a
reflection of how I behaved andhow I can behave differently.
And so I think that little bitof agency is quite powerful,
because then again goes back tothe theory, the hope theory,

(32:59):
where you, you're looking at thesituation.
Be it, I want to become more aperson of integrity, I want to
solve this particular problem.
But then what can I do in mysphere of control and influence,
and how do I then change what Ican do?
Rather, than be expecting therest of the world to change for

(33:22):
me, but not thinking that inisolation, but within my context
and you're already alluding tosome of the challenges.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
when you bring an approach like positive
leadership into a variety ofcultural contexts and what comes
to mind is the idea of you knowwhat does vulnerability look
like?
What is strength considered,especially as a leader?
When are you practicingsomething new and it's perceived

(33:58):
as weakness?
Or the way you might use humoror even go further, sarcasm, for
instance.
There's all these approaches.
I still remember introducingco-creating solutions to a
leader saying don't come withthe solution, just facilitate a

(34:19):
conversation with your team tofind the solution together.
And he said to me I can't dothat.
They're going to look upon meas incompetent or weak.
I have to come with thesolution.
And it took a while for him toget to the point where he could
hold back his ideas and be morecoach-like in creating that

(34:40):
conversation.
So what is your experience asyou bring this?
How does the ICI framework helpyou bring it in a more
appropriate way or moreculturally agile way?
Do you have any examples?

Speaker 2 (34:53):
So I look at some of the leaders I work with, of
course, very Qatari,traditionally Qatari, and
usually, rather than beingprescriptive, I asked them where
have you seen that work best?
So to try to tap into their owncultural experience rather than

(35:16):
introducing something veryforeign.
And that's where my ICIperception comes in, because I,
you know, I'm looking atresources, but I'm looking at
the resources within the contextof the culture, not just in the
context of the individual,because it is a communal culture
, because they're they'relooking at um examples and and

(35:37):
models from within.
And so I ask, like, where haveyou seen a collaborative, uh
decision being made and how didthat leader come about and did
it threaten their leadership?
Because of course, that isoften the case.
They ask, so I'm, they'reexpecting me to have an answer,
and if I don't have an answer,then they're going to think I'm

(35:58):
incompetent or they're not goingto respect me.
And then helping them thinkabout how can they prime the
conversation to then be able tosay, hey, I do have an answer,
but I want to hear that maybeyou have other ideas that I can
consider, and so to help themrealize it's like you can.
So you asked about vulnerabilityin in all of that and I think,

(36:21):
and this, helping themunderstand what is it that
they're thinking, uh, is often astarting point, because then we
can then look into, okay, howdo you then show up, share that,
what you need to share, withoutfeeling like you've you became
weak in front of people, uh, andso really respecting those real

(36:43):
threats for them because, likeone of the things I understood,
so, when I worked at one of thehospital networks here, the fear
that people had was that itwasn't safe for them to be
vulnerable, to be honest, toshow that they didn't know, and
that was a genuine fear becauseit was not a psychologically

(37:06):
safe environment.
And so we had to work withinthat context as to like, how do
you create that bubble withinyour team of the best conditions
for thriving, being very awarethat this might be threatening
to your very existence in thiscontext?

(37:26):
That doesn't reward that right.
And so, to help them findmechanisms and to write a lot of
the leaders you're asking forstory, a lot of the leaders was
about helping them prime theconversation.
That placed them withcredibility, yet trying
something, and often they I,when I teach coaching to one of

(37:50):
the big companies here, one ofthe aviation teams and they
often say, like my team wants me, they're gonna find it really
weird that I'm not giving themanswers yes and and I tell them,
you know you can tell them thatyou've learned a tool and that
you're trying this tool and ifthey can entertain you with that

(38:12):
tool now, like I'm going to trysomething new that I want to
see if it works, and then at anymoment you can go back to your
default.
But that gives them the the, itshows, it tells people you're
not just messing with them oryou're mad at them or you're
trying to catch them, becausethat was the big thing.
They're gonna think I'm gonnatry to catch them.

(38:33):
It's like no, you have to beupfront about your intention so
that then they know that theyare actually a part of something
that is safe.
And so helping them acknowledgewhat is the risk and then
finding those and there are realrisks within that context.
Yeah, but if I think about itin the West.

(38:54):
I'm not incompetent, sotherefore I'm not going to worry
about it.
But the reality in anhonor-shame environment is it
doesn't matter if you'recompetent or not.
You need to be perceivedcompetent, right.
It doesn't matter if you'recompetent or not, you need to be
perceived competent right.
So how do you are then bringingin those practices, yet
preserving that honor and thatcredibility that you need to

(39:15):
have?

Speaker 1 (39:20):
that is built differently here than it is in
other parts of the world, andwhat you're describing really
does require thatinterculturally agile language
and framework of thinking,because, as I'm listening to you
, I think a copy-paste approachwould never work.
So, so you have to gently,maybe even slow it down a little

(39:41):
bit, even for yourself as aprofessional, and just find your
way into what the reality isfor the group or for the client,
and then come alongside them intheir reality and help them
move forward.
So in that way, ici can assistyou as a positive leadership

(40:05):
expert.
But what about the other seven,eight hundred ICI practitioners
around the world, in 55countries?
How can positive psychology ingeneral, or positive leadership,
how can it help ICIpractitioners?
What would you say to that?

Speaker 2 (40:24):
I think the language of culture is a very important
language, but it doesn't solveall the other, all the we have
right.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Having that language is a starting point.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
And so when I think about positive psychology coming
into an environment likeafghanistan and that tiny little
bit of agency that it couldgive to that one person, but
just you know, uh, sitting thereand being able to have the hope
theory in their mind, you know,as a coach in this case, having

(40:58):
theory, hope theory in theirmind and say, okay, how do I
help this person feel that theyhave efficacy, that they can
intervene in this fear, thatthey are able to control?
How do I help this personidentify some pathways, some
ways of dealing with this andfinding a way forward in this

(41:20):
situation?
So that concept in itself isquite powerful and it can be
adjusted to any culture.
So it's a tool and it's aconcept and a theory that you
bring in and then you use itwithin the culture.
Right, it's the same ofoptimism that we're gonna.
We're gonna look at what arethey hoping for within that
culture, what are the problemsthat they are dealing with,

(41:43):
without, without comparing ifthat would be a problem for me.
It doesn't matter if that wouldbe a problem for me or if that
would be something I wouldstruggle with in their
experience of, of their contextand reality.
This is it.
This is something that it'sreally a barrier, and so how do
I use those interventions in away that can move them forward?

(42:06):
The same with relationalintelligence, you know, like
looking at how do theyunderstand the power of strength
spotting, which is, you know,for many cultures it's a very
foreign concept.
You are very much a critic youdon't you know, affirm Some
cultures you never heard.

(42:26):
I love you, right.
And then you are with Americansthat love you, know their
Starbucks, and I do that becauseI do love my Starbucks, so I
can say that, yeah, yeah but Iremember when I first moved to
the US and everything was I loveyou, I love this, I love that

(42:46):
and I'm like we met two hoursago.
I think you're cool.
I can't quite say that I loveyou because you know, to me love
was such.
It's such a weighty word, butcan I help with whatever
language that I learned that Idecide to use in that context?
Help people find a way toidentify what the other brings

(43:13):
and the value that they add fromhonoring their, their
background, their story and andtheir humanness, and seeing that
as an asset rather than adifficulty and a barrier we need
to put up with right and Ithink that is probably the most

(43:35):
powerful, because that issomething that I've seen is like
people are hungry for thataffirmative and appreciative
lenses, and absolutely.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
I think that's a universal universal need.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
But even even in the I see you sometimes have a lot
of flattery, but not deep like Isee you Right, I see you, I see
what you bring and Ihighlighted and I talk about it.
And that tends to bring forthmore.
People want to offer that more,and that is one of the tools

(44:10):
that I see working really wellin environments, and that's
where I think positivepsychology can help.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
And I can say, you know, being part of the
conference that you organized inDoha and bringing that positive
leadership story, you could see, you could feel the energy in
the room how it lifted the bothexpats as well as the Qataris
themselves.
It was actually evidence thatpeople are longing for somebody

(44:43):
affirming what is done well andwhat is positive.
I really am grateful that I hadthe chance that you invited me
to come and join, and then it'sbeen great, yes.
And then you know, after that,actually you joining the
KnowledgeWorks network as well,so as a KnowledgeWorks partner.

(45:06):
So we're very much lookingforward as to how that will
unfold the rest of this year andthe future, how that will
unfold the rest of this year inthe future and part of that.
You also already then announcedthat you had a desire to start
a leadership academy.
So tell us more about that,because I think that's a really
exciting project.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, so we're in the trenches right now putting
together all the pieces andhoping to launch in this this
fall in September, october.
But we're looking at one of themy frustrations and I think
we've talked about this a littlebit is that I'm called into
organizations and I do a one-offsometimes.
You know a series of workshops,but I don't have a lot of as an

(45:55):
external provider.
I don't journey with the people, usually to get them from A to
B to C to D, and so, inrealizing that the impact of
this, of positive psychology andpositive leadership, comes in
helping people really wrestlewith things and then try again

(46:17):
and try again.
So we're looking at acurriculum that is like a 12
week long curriculum where we'regoing to meet once a month for
a full day and then two weeklyencounters where we're going to
do a journey in, and actually weare looking at leader formation
more than leadershipdevelopment.
We, our leadership, comes outof who we are, and so the leader

(46:40):
needs to understand how theyfunction, how their story play a
role in their decision makingand in how they show up in the
world.
But then how does that theninfluence how they relate to
others into their teams and howthey can come out of that
alignment, with understandingwho they are and how they want
to be perceived to lead theimpact that they want to drive,

(47:03):
and so it's going to be a threemodule process.
But and then the exciting thingthat we are developing to go
alongside this is an AI support.
It's not quite an AI chat bot.
It's more like a priming andnudging coach that is gonna be
helping them wrestle through thecontent and how to apply it

(47:27):
within their context, and sothat is gonna be there.
We're doing our pilot programnow.
In the fall, we're gonna haveabout 25 leaders walking with us
through the journey and we'redoing our pilot program now.
In the fall, we're going tohave about 25 leaders walking
with us through the journey andwe're going to be doing all the
metrics to see the real impact.
But we're quite hopeful thatthis not only is going to
provide the leaders solidfoundation, but also is going to

(47:49):
generate quite a bit of resultsfor the organization.
And, more important than ever,in this context of constant
change and not knowing what thefuture holds, and everybody's
living in this uncertainty thatonly becomes more uncertain,
having leaders that have strongfoundations and operating out of

(48:14):
those strong foundations isessential, because an insecure
leader causes quite a bit ofdamage, and so we want to build
that security, and so that is avery exciting thing that's
happening and that we'rebuilding, and then later we will
expand into other countries.
You're starting starting Qatarand plan to go to saudi next,

(48:34):
next year, uh, with this uhprogram, uh, but there will be
lots of other things that aregoing to come up uh as part of
this knowledge hub sounds reallyexciting and necessary, like
you said, a journey approach toworking with leaders and and
bringing the interculturalagility.

(48:54):
That is a very so thefoundational pieces for us in
this journey we were justfinishing writing the curriculum
is the cultural intelligenceand the emotional intelligence.
For us it goes hand in hand.
Without that base of language,um, then it, then you.
You can't engage as deeply.

(49:15):
So we wanna make sure theleaders leave not only with an
ability to understand their.
We want them to understandtheir cultural being and how
that also plays a role, and howthe cultural element plays a
role in the dynamics that theyare leading, and how does that

(49:36):
influence the impact they'recreating within the organization
?
Because it goes from the microto the macro, and so we need to
help them understand that andthen scale that as well.
So I could have talked forhours no, no, it's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (49:53):
This is really exciting.
And, yeah, if people are in theregion, or, specifically, if
they live in Qatar or Saudi orany of the other countries in
the Gulf, how do they get incontact with you?
We will share contactinformation in the notes, as we
always do, but how do theyconnect with you, roberta?

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, they can reach out to me on LinkedIn, roberta
Saffols on on linkedin, or youknow, we have a website,
robertosafflescom and um, thoseare probably the easiest channel
.
I have a youtube channel where,if you are curious about the
summit that we did last yearwhere marco was there, all those
videos are up.
You can watch them and you cansee a little bit more about what

(50:33):
they where we do and in thatcontext, it's gonna get stronger
as we go.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
And then, yeah, those are probably the easiest ways
to get in touch well, as yousaid, we could talk if we could
talk for hours about thissubject, but yeah, thank you so
much.
I I'm very excited about ourpartnership and the way what's
the fancy word?
Convergence starts to happen,you know when, when different

(50:59):
disciplines, differentperspectives come together, and
I can definitely see that as aseven as we're having the
conversation today.
So thank you so much forjoining thank you.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
Thank you, marco.
It was a pleasure, always anhonor.
It was a pleasure, and we willdo the reverse.
I want you on our podcast whenwe launch that in just a couple
of months.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Put me on the list, count me in For sure.
We've just done some analysison how the podcast is doing and
we're actually doing very wellwithin the business context, but
we also need your help.
So, whatever channel you mighthave listened to this podcast,

(51:44):
please give us a thumbs up or alike or, if the platform allows,
please write a little review.
That will really help us tospread the podcast far and wide.
And, of course, you know, senda send a share link to people in
your network who might benefitfrom from listening to podcasts
like the one roberta and I justrecorded.

(52:07):
Thank you so much for joining usfor this episode of the
cultural agility podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
podcast to people around you.

(52:27):
If any of the topics wediscussed today intrigue you,
you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout getting certified in
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
interculturally agile, you canfind more information and

(52:47):
hundreds of articles atknowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, shelley Reinhardt,rajita Raj, anita Rodriguez,
karen Condon, and special thanksto Matthew Blankenberg for

(53:10):
audio production, rosalind Rajfor scheduling and Caleb Strauss
for helping produce thispodcast.
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