February 13, 2023 • 42 mins
Most psychometric tools are created by researchers in the West. These tools are shaped by cultural human beings with Western biases. Are these tools viable in non-Western settings?
How do you avoid marginalizing non-western team members if you do use those tools?
Listen as Linda Berlot shares deep insights to help managers and facilitators alike use psychometric assessments to help their intercultural teams thrive. Learn how to bring cultural agility into the valuable tools you already use.
Linda Berlot is the CEO of Berlot Group and works with executive teams to address intangible hurdles that exist around trust, conflict, communication, and intercultural issues, to adopt a better, more collaborative, and united way of working together.
You can reach out to Linda Berlot at: berlotgroup.com
Sign up for a DiSC Certification through KnowledgeWorkx to understand how to bring cultural agility into the way you use DiSC at: knowledgeworkx.com/certifications-disc
Sign up for an Inter-Cultural Intelligence Certification at: knowledgeworkx.com/certifications-ici
In this episode, you will learn:
- - How to use western psychometric assessment tools on intercultural teams.
- - How to build the psychological safety in teams necessary to make psychometric assessments helpful.
- - The biggest mistakes to avoid when facilitating psychometric assessments interculturally
| Articles and Resources
-- Two Spotlights for Illuminating Human Behavior (http://kwx.fyi/two-spotlights-for-human-behavior)
-- DiSC Certification –The KnowledgeWorkx Way (http://kwx.fyi/disc-knowledgeworkx-way)
-- KnowledgeWorkx.com/framework
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Linda Berlot (00:00):
It's the lens through which I look through, I
cannot separate that fromanything else I do. I when I'm
working with a team, I seeintercultural issues light up in
front of me like string. Andit's fascinating if we have a
team that has predominantly oneworldview, and some of the other
worldviews aren't in a minority,and also maybe less lively or
(00:24):
less, you know, dominant discstyles, they would tend to be
marginalized. So when I seethese intercultural issues for
me, it becomes very clear whatit is rather than personality
that it's intercultural. And itgives them an opportunity to
talk about this.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:51):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(01:12):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world. Well,welcome everybody to this
podcast. Today. Linda Burnett isback in our little studio in the
knowledge box office. I'm soglad that you're back again.
(01:33):
Thank you, Linda, for joining.
Linda Berlot (01:34):
Hey, Marco, thank you so much for inviting me, I
always enjoy the conversationsthat we have.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:40):
And today's conversation is something that
we haven't really talked abouton any of our podcasts yet. And
it has to do with usingassessment tools in an
intercultural setting. And thelast time we saw over a year
ago, now, we talked about teamsand your work with intercultural
teams and using the combinationof ici intercultural
(02:03):
intelligence and or SCorganization or relational
systems coaching. And that inand of itself was a fantastic
conversation, many peoplelistened to that. And you have
continued to grow from strengthto strength with your team, in
terms of working with teamsworking with leaders and
managers. And in that process,assessment tools have played a
(02:24):
key role. So it's great that wecan talk about that today.
Because there's there's lots ofchallenges that people face when
it comes to using assessments.
Absolutely. So one of the thingsthat we have always fought
against almost, is thatassessments when you say, Oh,
I'm going to do a personalitytest, or I'm going to do an
(02:45):
assessment or any sorts ofbehavioral assessment. people
immediately think, oh, that'sthe world of psychology. Right?
And as from knowledge, workersperspective, we've always said,
Well, yes, psychologists couldsay a lot about human behavior.
But we're also cultural humanbeings. And we've always been
advocating this idea that thereare actually two spotlights
(03:06):
turned on to understand humanbehavior. But some people, they
don't want to go for it. And I'mjust curious, from your
perspective, what have you seen,you know that, you know, should
psychologists own the privilegeof explaining human behavior?
And it only fits in that camp?
(03:28):
Or is there? Is there room forboth the cultural side of human
behavior and the psychologicalside of human behavior?
Linda Berlot (03:35):
That's a great question. Monica, thank you for
asking me that question.
Honestly, I think if thepsychologists owned it, and they
certainly could, I think otherarenas in the world would would,
would not get the benefit of,you know, the value of the
learning that comes from theseassessment tools. In the work
that we do. We're working withteams, but what we're really
doing is helping them improvetheir relationships or their
(03:58):
team dynamics, as we call them.
And by doing that, we want toincrease the positivity in the
team. Because we know thatthere's a lot of data that says
that positivity equalsproductivity, the closer that we
are, the more connected we are,the better we understand each
other, the better we deal withconflict, the more trust there
is, the more productive we willbe. And so I truly believe that
(04:22):
using a psychometric tool withteam members gives them more
insight in who they are moreinsight into who their
colleagues and their peers are.
And it's easier than for them tostep into relationship with each
other and work on their teamdynamics. So I believe it's
essential for us as as coachesand as team facilitators to be
(04:42):
working with assessment toolsand psychometric tools.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:47):
Yeah. The world of assessments is a world
of its own. But we want toreally zoom in on practical
application. That's what we wantto talk about and in especially
in our work, you probably almostexclusively work with
intercultural teams, right?
Absolutely. So, how did youstart? You know, I know we've
(05:09):
known each other for many, manyyears since the mid 2000s. And
it'd be great for our audienceto get a little bit of your
backstory. How did you get intothis?
Linda Berlot (05:22):
How did I become a coach?
Marco Blankenburgh (05:25):
How did you start using tools how to get
into team development, learningand development?
Linda Berlot (05:31):
Well, my background has always been in
learning and development. Sounderstanding how humans operate
and how they learn and how theywork together, I've always been
fascinated by the interactionsbetween intercultural team
members and the misunderstandingthe potential for missing
understanding that exists. Sowhen I'm working with a team,
(05:55):
what became very apparent andvery important to do before we
started to work with them, wasto truly try and understand who
is in the team. And part of thatis culture. The other part is
personality, you know, so, priorto us engaging on a team
coaching journey, we spent quitea considerable amount of time
understanding who they are, andthat is in the form of
(06:19):
assessments, either face to faceassessments, where I asked
questions, and we're assessingthe dynamics between them, but
also using psychometric tools sowe can understand who the
personalities are, and a teamcentered tool to understand the
culture that currently exists inthe team. And with that
information, I can then designan appropriate coaching plan
(06:42):
that we can then you know,action on our journey together.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:46):
So it sounds like it's, it's more of an
inside out approach. You reallyget to know the inside your
inner wiring, absolutely. Anduse that for self discovery,
reflection, but then also to dothat at a team level, or even
larger, and we'll talk aboutthat organization
Linda Berlot (07:07):
really well. If you want to be in right
relationship with some someoneelse, it's important, first of
all, to be in right relationshipwith yourself and your many
aspects of self. And to do that,it requires us to be
introspective and know who weare. I think the better we know
who we are, the better were ableto be in, in relationship with
other people.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:27):
Yeah. living and working in the international
world. I still remember therewas one situation where I won't
name the country, but HRdirector of the company we were
working with, and we told him,We have successfully used
assessment tools across theemerging market economies. And
(07:47):
it's a no no, no, no, forgetabout that. That will never work
in this country. And people havewe proved it wrong in the end.
But people have said, well,these tools, they're all Western
tools. So you shouldn't usethose outside the Western world.
What would you say to you?
Obviously, I am not in thatcamp. Yeah. Well,
Linda Berlot (08:09):
I live and work here, I live in the UAE, I work
across the region, I'm usingthese tools with every team that
I work with, and all the teamsare intercultural. Because of
the nature of where we live, Iwould say actually, that many of
the tools are more from aWestern perspective. And, and so
there is always a need toexplain the tools explain the
(08:33):
language, when you are usingthose tools. But there are
certain tools that I use that Iam almost addicted to, because
they're simple, they're clean,they've been tested across
cultures, and they honor all thedifferent three worldviews. I
truly believe that in a, in amulticultural team or an
(08:53):
intercultural team, there is somuch complexity that's
happening, right. So mypreference is always to use
tools which are simpler, thatthe language is easy to
understand. Maybe it's beentranslated, and that the context
is clear also to understand,then the team can enjoy the
results together.
Marco Blankenburgh (09:14):
You raise a very interesting point, forgive
me for going into a little bitof a rabbit trail here, but some
people say well, I want the toolthat describes the human being
in the most comprehensive way.
And other people say what yousaid, I need a tool that people
can really understand in themoment and really unpack and yes
include or incorporate in theway they they grow together as
(09:38):
individuals and together as ateam. So this whole idea of the
tool needs to measure everythingabout me or the tool needs to
have enough substance enoughdepth so that I can grow as an
individual and as a team. So useyou use the word simple as
simpler to not simplistic. No.
(10:02):
So tell me a little bit moreabout that. Because I think
that's an important distinction.
Linda Berlot (10:07):
Yeah, I agree. I think in well, there's so much
complexity in the interculturalteams we're working with, right
from, from language, differentlanguages that we speak. And so
when we are listening or readingsomething, we perceive it
differently, you know, based onwhere we come from, and our
education, the way that we speakto each other, our personality
(10:29):
determines how we hear. So allof that is complex, I think, the
tools that if they give youenough information, one of the
gifts is to create aconversation with the team, and
to ask them, you know, how trueis this? How relevant is it? How
does it play out in your teamenvironment? And how do you move
(10:50):
from, from what may what thatmay show to creating agreements
that you guys can honor in your,what you call in, in your third
cultural space? Right? So forme, the conversation is also
extremely important that theteam members have around this,
or even the individual actually,because it's in the conversation
that we create awareness, andownership.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:11):
Yeah. So it's, it sounds like it's a
delicate balance, you want tohave sort of a tool that really
illuminates and that's that'svaluable. At the same time, if
if you bring too much complexityinto an already complex
situation, people get lost.
Yeah.
Linda Berlot (11:28):
Right. Do you know Marco, I've several times been
called in to work with a teamwhere they, they had
administered and psychometrictool, maybe at an individual
level or at a team level. Butthe the sentences were phrased
in a way that was confusing tothe intercultural team. The
context was not clear. And so itcreated a lot of upsets and
(11:52):
resentment and confusion,actually. And I remember on one
occasion, I had to go in withhim because I was trained in
that tool. We redid the tool,but I had to sit. And every time
they answered a question, I hadto explain what the question
meant. question by question byquestion. Yeah,
Marco Blankenburgh (12:09):
yeah. So it almost sounds like even the
tools are designed by culturalhuman beings? Yes. Yes. And it's
reflected in in the way thequestions are designed, the way
the feedback is articulated inthe report, etc. So that there
are probably, you know, wetalked about that earlier, this
(12:32):
idea, Oh, these are Westerntools. So, learning to navigate
that seems to be important, likethe example you just gave. So,
in our intercultural framework,we talk about tools that might
be more innocence, guiltoriented, where you're assuming
that the the person completingthe questions is purely looking
(12:54):
for the right answer. Yes.
versus somebody who might belooking for the honorable
answer, you know, how will I begiving an answer that myself, my
colleagues, my boss, willperceive as honorable, or where
it might be about hierarchy,positional power and your role
within the organization? Andthat's the main thing in my
head, as I'm answering thosequestions. So that influences
(13:17):
both how I perceive the flow ofthe questions, the way they're
articulated the way I'm going toanswer them. What motivates me
in terms of how I answer, haveyou seen situations where the
tool itself, you gave already anexample here, but Well, the tool
itself sort of needs culturalagility from you as a
(13:38):
facilitator or as a coach to dojustice to the tool?
Linda Berlot (13:43):
Yes, I have two clear examples, ones just popped
up now as it were speaking, oneexample is when the tool is a
very valuable tool. I love thetool. But the competencies that
they're measuring the leadersagainst are not culturally
sensitive, I would say. So forexample, looking for
transparency, right. Sotransparency in an in an honor,
(14:05):
shame, environments, may not bethe right thing to be looking
for, depending on, you know,maybe looking for being
honorable, as you mentioned amoment ago would be a better
measure in that environment. Butalso an interesting thing that I
has have started to noticeunless I'm clearly speaking to
(14:26):
that is that people respond tothe psychometric tool in terms
of what it should be. So insteadof who I am, and how it is what
it should be, and there's alittle bit of protectiveness
there when when someone is doingthat. So if we're using a disk
(14:48):
tool, for example, and disk,instead of saying this is who I
am, maybe I'm Heidi, orqualities that represents a high
D. I will check the s qualities,for example, because I believe
that that's the right thing tobe or the right behaviors to
have in a group setting. Right.
So that's super interesting.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:10):
Yeah. And along those lines, there's very
little research done on this. Iknow, in the world of Myers
Briggs, they've done a littlebit of research on this, where
they said, different leadershipstyles in different countries
are more celebrated or lesscelebrated. And, you know, I've,
you probably have seen the samewhere you go into a development
(15:33):
journey with a group of managersor a group of leaders. And they
will ask questions like, what'sthe best profile to have as a
manager?
Linda Berlot (15:40):
As if it's aspirational? Yes, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:43):
Yeah. So we have the application of tools,
the tools were designed by acertain person or a group of
people who have a certaincultural preference. So they
designed the tool in their imagein their cultural image, then
people like yourself, they takeit into the intercultural space,
you've talked about thatcomplexity. Could you just share
(16:04):
a few examples, we talked aboutsome of the challenges we face
in that, but examples of how youuse tools with with teams, for
instance, or groups of managersor leaders, I have so
Linda Berlot (16:15):
many examples.
Last year, I worked with a verylarge organization. It's an
international organization basedbased overseas, and they have a
regional office here in the UAE,the leadership team, or the
executive team is amulticultural team, as are all
of the employees. And I startedworking with the executive
(16:37):
leadership team. And we usedisk, I'm a real fan of disk,
because of all the reasons wewere just speaking about. For
me, this is a very powerfultool, it's validated, it takes
culture into consideration, thelanguage is clean and clear to
understand as is the context. SoI like that the reporting that
(16:58):
comes out is also beautiful,because it encourages a coaching
conversation. And I'm a fan ofboth the individual report that
the the executive gets, but alsothe team report, because it
allows the conversation then toshift away from self to the
team. So I worked with thisorganization, this is executive
(17:20):
leadership team, they werefeisty and fun, and they got so
much out of it the work, youknow, we we assessed the team,
we spent hours debriefing andunpacking the tools with the
individuals themselves, theexecutives, and then we took
them to a team level. Andreally, I had two sessions, two
team workshops with them, theythought it was so powerful that
(17:43):
they asked us to then roll itdown to the next two levels in
the organization. So we ran thisthroughout the organization. Of
course, the department headswhen they went through the
program found it powerful too,and and we were asked to then
run it throughout thedepartments, or many of the
departments. So all of a sudden,you've got an entire
(18:06):
organization, using disk as acommon language to describe each
other's behavior. It's light,it's fun, it's non threatening.
And, and it's a way that theycan help each other, be better
at being in relationship witheach other, to have better
conflict to have to raisetopics, but also to communicate
(18:26):
and approach each other. Sothis, it was very powerful, it
was light, it was fun. And it'stransformed their organization.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:37):
You make it sound like anybody could do
that. Of course, being certifiedas Yes, as an Everything DiSC
practitioner, that's the versionof this that we use with with
Wiley, which is a thirdgeneration of disc tools, with
Adaptive Testing included, etc.
But the fact that you are alsoan intercultural practitioner,
(19:00):
you're very familiar with theknowledge works approach with
the three quarters of worldviewand 12 dimensions of culture so
that that's almost like a secondscript that runs in your head as
you're working with people. Howdoes that make a difference? So
you're just certified, butyou're also an intercultural
practitioner.
Linda Berlot (19:22):
It's the lens through which I look through, I
cannot separate that fromanything else I do. I when I'm
working with a team, I seeintercultural issues light up in
front of me, like stringy andit's fascinating. And I use the
language to reflect back in theteam environment what what I'm
seeing, for example, I mighthave a, an Italian, D in the
(19:46):
room, and the Japanese D in theroom, and they're not relating
to each other. In the same wayeven though the qualities might
be the same. They demonstrate itvery differently. That would be
an intercultural piece that Iwould then demonstrate between
them. Or if we have a team thatis predominantly one, one
(20:07):
worldview, and some of the otherworldviews aren't in a minority,
and also maybe less lively orless, you know, dominant disc
styles, they would tend to bemarginalized. Because they've
they've, they have differentvalues around communication,
and, you know, the, in theinterpersonal space. So when I
(20:30):
see these intercultural issues,for me, it becomes very clear
what it is rather thanpersonality that it's
intercultural. And it gives theman opportunity to talk about
this,
Marco Blankenburgh (20:41):
right. So it's not just that you bring it
in, but it actually starts toshape how you facilitate. Yes,
absolutely. Absolutely. That'sfascinating. So what does that
look like? Because a lot ofthese psychometric tools, you
get trained on them, and you gettrained on a certain way of
(21:01):
facilitating debriefing, whatyou're now saying is that you
sometimes throw that into whenyou flow with the culture of
diversity and how culturemanifests itself in the room,
can you say a little bit more,
Linda Berlot (21:15):
I think, all the work that we do is in service
of, of the system, the team, andwe work with what emerges, we
work with what's already therethat they may not see. So my job
as a systems coach is to welcomeprepared well, and then just
keep working and revealing whatI am seeing whether it's
(21:37):
personality differences ormisunderstandings because of
culture, sometimes it's not amisunderstanding, sometimes they
just don't see that they aremissing each other, like two
ships in the night just becausethey're speaking a different
language, almost.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:53):
I'm reminded of, even last week, I was
facilitating a group and, andone of the people in the group
was came up to me bit nervousand said, Do we have to share
our reports with our colleagues?
And that was that wasn'tactually a cultural question.
It's like, how safe am I? So howdo you how do you create that?
It's fun, but it's also quiterevealing. It's deep, it could
(22:17):
be confrontational. But how doyou create a safe space? Where
eventually people might? Well,hopefully, you know, the
majority will start sharing witheach other learning from each
other? Having fun with it? Howdo you create that safe space?
Linda Berlot (22:34):
What you're speaking to is very important.
And I think one of my biggestfailures was overstepping that
piece. And I think what'simportant to do is to in the
assessment stage of the team, tonotice how much psychological
safety is there? How much trustis there? How much openness? And
how much is culture playing intothat, you know, is the culture
(22:59):
of the team toxic, so they don'thave psychological safety? Or is
it just because we're in anintercultural team, you know,
that safety means differentthings to different cultures. So
that's important to know. Andsome of the techniques might be
to, first of all, educate theleader, because depending on
what worldview though, they are,they want openness, and let's
(23:21):
talk about everything. And sothere might be some education
there that's needed, then theleader might have to stand up
and say, you know, everythingthat gets said in this workshop
stays in the workshop, thatthere will be no impact to your
performance management, to yourbonus to your anything back in
the workplace. And then, slowly,slowly, it's about when the team
(23:47):
does make itself vulnerable doestake a tentative step. It's
about showing them what they'redoing, and letting them know,
wow, look, there's a reallytrust here, you know, and so
really affirming, affirming andchampioning that trust and
safety keeps keeps growing.
Marco Blankenburgh (24:05):
Now, you mentioned an example of a leader
who says, let's put everythingon the table, etc. But I've also
met leaders who, in their ownpractice are totally the
opposite. Yeah. So if a leaderplays very cautiously, more or
less walks with a mask on, howdo you deal with leaders like
that? How do you use theirpresence in the room to either
(24:29):
shift the willingness from therest of the team? Do you have
any ideas or suggestions?
Linda Berlot (24:37):
So once I've assessed the team before I
actually start working with theteam, I spent a considerable
amount of time with the leader,asking questions trying to
understand number one, what arethey what is their personality?
What are they comfortable with?
What are they where do they feelvulnerable? And also what is
their culture? What'sappropriate for them and what
their mindset and then doesassigning some agreements
(25:00):
around, how do they want tointeract with me and me with
them? What's appropriate? Can Igive you feedback in the room?
Or personally outside privately?
What is the culture that you'rewanting to create? And how are
you as a leader behaving thatencourages that or blokes that?
(25:20):
And? And then if I see that, howwould you like me to feed that
back to you? So it's, it's an indepth conversation that I have.
I also like to talk about therank and privilege that leaders
have or that exists in the teamand ask the leader, how do we
want to work with that?
Marco Blankenburgh (25:39):
Right. And I often have seen if if there is
more of a hierarchicalrelationship, that if the leader
is willing to sort of demo, youknow, what is what might
appropriate drill nobility ortransparency look like? Then
that really opens up?
Absolutely.
Linda Berlot (25:57):
Absolutely. I worked once with a local bank.
And in the assessment, when Iasked the question, I normally
ask the question to the team. Noone answered, everybody looked
at the leader first. Yeah. Andonce the leader spoke, then they
spoke. And that was fascinatingto see. And two years on, they
achieved amazing return oneffectiveness, but also ROI,
(26:20):
because they are bank. So theyput $1 value to it. They became
open, transparent with eachother, able to have conflict in
a very open and respectful wayand to listen to each other. And
not to be afraid not to stayaway from each other and be
afraid of speaking at aninappropriate time or something
like that. That's fantastic. Itwas and the leader was
(26:42):
instrumental in helping the teamjust unlock itself.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:47):
So everything you're saying is, you
know, it's not just as simple asOkay, here's the access code, do
your questionnaire, we'll bringthe reports, see you next week,
we'll and we jump straight intothe room. There's, there's
almost like a slowing down. Yes,of really preparing well,
getting to know the team,getting to know the team leader
(27:09):
and working with the teamleader, almost like you're
coaching the team leader, evenbefore a workshop or a learning
journey starts.
Linda Berlot (27:17):
Absolutely. And as we're talking now, I'm realizing
that you know, it's also workingwith the leaders culture has
built innocence, innocence guiltleader might might say, treat me
the same. I'm open. If I'm theone if I'm the blocker pointed
out to me. And I can say tothem, yes. Okay, and I'm driving
(27:38):
this bus, you know, it can bethat open that transparent. And
other leaders, perhaps I can't Ihave to not defer but respect
the authority that lives andrespect the hierarchy and find
ways to work inside what alreadyexists.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So although you are
leading the facilitation itself,the leader is still respected
and honored for as being incharge.
Linda Berlot (28:05):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And sometimes it's about simplethings. Like using their name,
like saying something, and Iknow that you agree you I know
you see this too, or giving theleader an opportunity to open
the workshop each day, you know,so I'm driving the bus. Here it
is. Here's Linda. Yeah, I'm incharge. Yeah, it's small things
like that, which makes a
Marco Blankenburgh (28:27):
big difference. Yeah. Now, you know,
you've you've done this for manyyears. And what you've shared so
far is, there's a lot of insightthat you've gathered over the
years. I, sometimes you learn alot, especially for our
listeners, we learn a lot fromour mistakes. Are you willing to
(28:48):
share a few goof ups? A fewsituations that didn't go so?
Well? Yeah.
Linda Berlot (28:54):
Absolutely. I think we, look, we're human too,
right. And as as much as we wantto think I'm professional, I'm
trained, I'm prepared. I think,working in an intercultural
environment, you can prepare ashard as you can. And sometimes
there are going to be thingsthat either you've missed or you
step over or, or kind ofunexpectedly pop up that you
(29:16):
didn't, you know, I can think ofwell to two separate occasions.
One was purely an interculturalpiece that I stepped over. And
yeah, I was working with it witha team and I said something that
Dishonored or was perceived asdishonorable by one of the team
members. And so, I had to, I hadto find a way to quickly allow
(29:40):
the person to say face again infront of the group and then take
it to a group learning, but Ialso worked with the team also
intercultural, I thought thatthey would get a lot of value
out of becoming self aware, thatculture in the organization was
quite toxic. And I thought, whatif I start with the lead To ship
team and help them see theimpact they are having on the
(30:04):
culture, you know, fix theculture. What I totally did not
see that kind of popped up was.
So accountability is hard. Ifyou're trying to save face if
you the accountability pieceshows itself in different ways.
So I thought, you know, let's dothe tool, let's use this clips,
coach them around, coach, eachindividual leader on the scene
(30:26):
and their reports. And that willhelp them increase emotional
intelligence. But it doesn'tnecessarily change the way that
we feel we can takeaccountability, sometimes. It's
not just about I'm unwilling totake accountability, sometimes I
don't feel that I can. Becauseit's not up to me, it's up to
(30:47):
someone else, or the group orthe leader or, you know, so I
missed that piece. And I'vesince learned and since
understood that, before you cando the assessment even. There's
questions that are needed to beasked, in terms of
accountability, hierarchy, howmuch can you contribute? You
(31:08):
know, and
Marco Blankenburgh (31:12):
I think that's where or SC is also so
powerful, because you're notjust dealing with individuals,
those organizations, thoseindividuals work in an
organizational system, yes, thatsystem might be working against
you, as individuals might say, Iwant to change but then they go
back to the office or back tothe organization. And the system
doesn't allow them to do that
Linda Berlot (31:33):
the wider system, I'm currently working with a
very well known company here inthe UAE. I'm working with the
leadership team, but not theexecutive team. And the leaders
are impacted by the culturethat's driven by the CEO and the
executive team. So so there's alot that we can do and help them
(31:54):
you know, work on what's ontheir sphere of influence, and
that but at a certain point,we're going to have to tackle
the elephant in the room, whichis how do you want to be with
the wider culture?
Marco Blankenburgh (32:06):
Right, right. And as soon as you step
into that, then it's not just afew workshops here, and then it
becomes a journey. Right? Andthose things take time.
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, I alreadymentioned that, you know, we're
working with everything discfrom Wiley. And just
historically, because of thehistory of disc and Marston
(32:27):
developing the framework, andeventually there are, you know,
it resulted in many differentservice providers that all use
the label disc. But there aremany, many different versions
out there. Wiley has bothEverything DiSC and the five
behaviors, they publishedPatrick Lencioni, his book, so
five dysfunctions of a team ispublished through Wiley and all
(32:49):
of his other books. And as aresult, they built the five
behaviors assessment whichintegrates disc, why use the
Everything DiSC family, so tospeak, as well as the five
behaviors products from Wiley.
While there is so much otherchoice out there in the disc
world.
Linda Berlot (33:07):
You're asking me this, because you know, these
are my favorite. Because Mako, Ihave seen different versions of
just out there. I've been usingthis for many, many years. And
the reason why I like EverythingDiSC is because well, apart from
the reason the fact that itkeeps updating itself, the
(33:29):
language is easy to understand.
It's becoming more and moreculturally relevant, translated
in different languages. I lovethe reporting, the reporting is
now easier to use in a coachingsituation. So it's not just that
the psychometric tool is adiagnostic tool. It's also
become a developmental tool,which, of course, for a systems
coach, like myself is ideal. Butalso, I believe that the
(33:51):
individual then the team createthe culture in the team. So for
me, it's very important to belooking at who is in the team in
terms of individuals, but also,when we are together when we are
working together, the dynamicscreate trust and the ability for
us to, to, to be accountable andto drive for team results. So
(34:14):
it's important to look at both,I think you can't work, in my
opinion, just on the individualfor the reason you mentioned
earlier, I am an individual, ifI have accountability and I know
what to do doesn't mean I willbe successful in a team
environment. So it's importantto look at both. And I love both
of those tools because they caneasily be integrated and they
(34:37):
are not simplistic, but theinformation that they give is
extremely powerful and easy tounderstand. Right? And therefore
work with
Marco Blankenburgh (34:48):
and building that bridge from from your
behavioral style to how do we dotrust, how to create productive
conflict commitment,accountability, traffic driving
salts, and then doing that witha deep understanding of the
cultural dynamics that'sincredibly rich.
Linda Berlot (35:06):
Absolutely. I really believe that as humans,
we have a lot of expectationsand assumptions. And so we, we
want to move away fromassumptions to agreements. But
we can't come up with Teamagreements unless we talk about,
you know, what does trust meanto us from from different
cultures? You know, somebodymight say, you have to behave in
(35:29):
a trustworthy manner. Someoneelse might say to you, No, for
me trust is if you've got myback no matter what. And so that
those are the conversations veryrich and deep conversations that
we want to create between teammembers, so that they can get
closer,
Marco Blankenburgh (35:45):
right? Now there's last time I looked at
this, this giver takes five 600psychometric tools in the world.
So even you probably haveexperienced working with clients
who use a certain tool. Peopleget certified on these tools.
And we then meet people who say,Oh, I'm struggling with
(36:07):
implementing this or I'mstruggling with making it come
alive, or the language in thereport, people can't really
grasp it, or there's thechallenges that we just talked
about. So we've come across, youknow, strengths finders, for
instance, Myers Briggs, we havepeople on our team who are even
using Myers Briggs, we have morecomplex leadership tools like
(36:29):
Hogan and Berkman or leadershipcircle, we already briefly
talked about Five Behaviors of aCohesive Team, for all the
listeners that arepsychometrically certified in
some way or another, but whoneed to use those tools in an
intercultural diverse setting.
What would you say to them? Howdo they start on the journey to
get closer to where you aretoday? Having both those
(36:51):
spotlights really clear thecultural side, the psychometric
side is clearly in front of you.
You said, it lights up like astring you said earlier on? How
do you how do you advise peopleto get to that point,
Linda Berlot (37:05):
I use many of those tools myself, I would say
the first the starting point forme is get trained on
intercultural intelligence. Ithink if you're operating in
this part of the world, this isa foundation which we cannot
step over, I think when culturescollide, and there is so much
potential for healing and growthand love as well as
(37:29):
misunderstanding and pain. Sofor me, that's the first step.
And then really, trulyunderstand your your team or
your system and who is in thesystem, before making a choice
of what psychometric tool touse. So adapt the tool to the
team, not the team to the toolthat you have would be my best
(37:50):
piece of advice.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:51):
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And for our
listeners, you will findinformation about the the
intercultural intelligencecertifications in the in the
notes, as well as contactinformation for Linda. There's
so many more things we couldtalk about, you've been doing
this for at least 15 plus years.
And you could tell many stories,but I would love for us to close
(38:14):
up with one more story, whereyou've seen how it really
transformed not justindividuals, but also teams and
the organization as a whole.
Linda Berlot (38:26):
I recently started working with a small university
and the mother University isWestern. But there is a branch
here in the UAE. And also, Istarted with the leadership
team, and we use disk in this inthis case. Yeah, I couldn't, I
(38:47):
can't remember if we use theintercultural I don't think we
have yet we use disk, theleadership team just loved it.
By the end of the the firststage of the journey, which was
the assessment, the coaching,the individual coaching, and the
first team, this workshop, the,the team leader said, Wow, I
(39:09):
feel like for the very firsttime we are a team. And that was
so moving, they just it wasalmost like all these lights,
they started to see each otherand pass the frustrations that
they had been having. And thattriggered the desire to run that
throughout the organization. Soin around September last year,
(39:30):
we were asked, please, Coachanother almost 100 people by the
15th of December. So we didthat. And it's extremely
powerful, what's changed? Notleast of all, so we've created a
more in depth understanding ofwho the individuals are and who
we're working with, but notleast of all it's given them an
(39:51):
understanding of Wow. So this iswho we are as individuals and as
a culture. And this is how weare different went to the
mothership, if you will. Themothership is wanting to, you
know, just carbon copy in in theUAE. And they're starting to see
that that can't work. So nowwe're doing that piece of work.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:15):
That opens up a whole other conversations,
which sometimes gets politicalas well. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Well, it's fascinating,always wonderful to listen to
you and the wealth of experienceyou have. So thank you for for
joining us again, and talk aboutthis important subject. And for
(40:36):
our listeners, as I mentioned,we've always share information
to connect with our hosts andour guests. So you'll find that
information. If you want toconnect with Linda and her team,
Linda has a company calledburnout group. And we partner
extensively with Linda and herteam. So it's, uh, find the
(40:58):
information in the notes andconnect with her or connect with
our team. And we will, we'll putyou in contact with her. So
thank you so much for, for doingthis and for for sharing your
story today.
Linda Berlot (41:09):
Monica, thank you for inviting me, I always find
our conversations priceless,such a gift to be able to talk
about a passion that we bothshare. But also, I want to thank
you and your team for thesupport that you give our team
and equipping us and upskillingus and tooling us with all the
tools that you you have we couldnot do the work that we do
(41:30):
without the work that you do.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:34):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app orchannel. Force forward and
recommend this podcast peoplearound you. As always, if any of
the topics we discussed todayintrigue you, you will find
(41:55):
links to articles discussingthem in greater depth in the
podcast notes. If you would liketo learn more about
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
culturally agile, you can findmore information and hundreds of
articles at knowledge works.comA special thanks to Jason Carter
for composing the music on thispodcast and to the whole
(42:18):
knowledge works team for makingthis podcast a success. Thank
you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as thisbackyard Raji Suraj. And thanks
to VIP and George for audioproduction, Rosalind Mirage for
scheduling, and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast
It's the lens through which I look through, I
cannot separate that fromanything else I do. I when I'm
working with a team, I seeintercultural issues light up in
front of me like string. Andit's fascinating if we have a
team that has predominantly oneworldview, and some of the other
worldviews aren't in a minority,and also maybe less lively or
(00:24):
less, you know, dominant discstyles, they would tend to be
marginalized. So when I seethese intercultural issues for
me, it becomes very clear whatit is rather than personality
that it's intercultural. And itgives them an opportunity to
talk about this.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:51):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(01:12):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world. Well,welcome everybody to this
podcast. Today. Linda Burnett isback in our little studio in the
knowledge box office. I'm soglad that you're back again.
(01:33):
Thank you, Linda, for joining.
Linda Berlot (01:34):
Hey, Marco, thank you so much for inviting me, I
always enjoy the conversationsthat we have.
Marco Blankenburgh (01:40):
And today's conversation is something that
we haven't really talked abouton any of our podcasts yet. And
it has to do with usingassessment tools in an
intercultural setting. And thelast time we saw over a year
ago, now, we talked about teamsand your work with intercultural
teams and using the combinationof ici intercultural
(02:03):
intelligence and or SCorganization or relational
systems coaching. And that inand of itself was a fantastic
conversation, many peoplelistened to that. And you have
continued to grow from strengthto strength with your team, in
terms of working with teamsworking with leaders and
managers. And in that process,assessment tools have played a
(02:24):
key role. So it's great that wecan talk about that today.
Because there's there's lots ofchallenges that people face when
it comes to using assessments.
Absolutely. So one of the thingsthat we have always fought
against almost, is thatassessments when you say, Oh,
I'm going to do a personalitytest, or I'm going to do an
(02:45):
assessment or any sorts ofbehavioral assessment. people
immediately think, oh, that'sthe world of psychology. Right?
And as from knowledge, workersperspective, we've always said,
Well, yes, psychologists couldsay a lot about human behavior.
But we're also cultural humanbeings. And we've always been
advocating this idea that thereare actually two spotlights
(03:06):
turned on to understand humanbehavior. But some people, they
don't want to go for it. And I'mjust curious, from your
perspective, what have you seen,you know that, you know, should
psychologists own the privilegeof explaining human behavior?
And it only fits in that camp?
(03:28):
Or is there? Is there room forboth the cultural side of human
behavior and the psychologicalside of human behavior?
Linda Berlot (03:35):
That's a great question. Monica, thank you for
asking me that question.
Honestly, I think if thepsychologists owned it, and they
certainly could, I think otherarenas in the world would would,
would not get the benefit of,you know, the value of the
learning that comes from theseassessment tools. In the work
that we do. We're working withteams, but what we're really
doing is helping them improvetheir relationships or their
(03:58):
team dynamics, as we call them.
And by doing that, we want toincrease the positivity in the
team. Because we know thatthere's a lot of data that says
that positivity equalsproductivity, the closer that we
are, the more connected we are,the better we understand each
other, the better we deal withconflict, the more trust there
is, the more productive we willbe. And so I truly believe that
(04:22):
using a psychometric tool withteam members gives them more
insight in who they are moreinsight into who their
colleagues and their peers are.
And it's easier than for them tostep into relationship with each
other and work on their teamdynamics. So I believe it's
essential for us as as coachesand as team facilitators to be
(04:42):
working with assessment toolsand psychometric tools.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:47):
Yeah. The world of assessments is a world
of its own. But we want toreally zoom in on practical
application. That's what we wantto talk about and in especially
in our work, you probably almostexclusively work with
intercultural teams, right?
Absolutely. So, how did youstart? You know, I know we've
(05:09):
known each other for many, manyyears since the mid 2000s. And
it'd be great for our audienceto get a little bit of your
backstory. How did you get intothis?
Linda Berlot (05:22):
How did I become a coach?
Marco Blankenburgh (05:25):
How did you start using tools how to get
into team development, learningand development?
Linda Berlot (05:31):
Well, my background has always been in
learning and development. Sounderstanding how humans operate
and how they learn and how theywork together, I've always been
fascinated by the interactionsbetween intercultural team
members and the misunderstandingthe potential for missing
understanding that exists. Sowhen I'm working with a team,
(05:55):
what became very apparent andvery important to do before we
started to work with them, wasto truly try and understand who
is in the team. And part of thatis culture. The other part is
personality, you know, so, priorto us engaging on a team
coaching journey, we spent quitea considerable amount of time
understanding who they are, andthat is in the form of
(06:19):
assessments, either face to faceassessments, where I asked
questions, and we're assessingthe dynamics between them, but
also using psychometric tools sowe can understand who the
personalities are, and a teamcentered tool to understand the
culture that currently exists inthe team. And with that
information, I can then designan appropriate coaching plan
(06:42):
that we can then you know,action on our journey together.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:46):
So it sounds like it's, it's more of an
inside out approach. You reallyget to know the inside your
inner wiring, absolutely. Anduse that for self discovery,
reflection, but then also to dothat at a team level, or even
larger, and we'll talk aboutthat organization
Linda Berlot (07:07):
really well. If you want to be in right
relationship with some someoneelse, it's important, first of
all, to be in right relationshipwith yourself and your many
aspects of self. And to do that,it requires us to be
introspective and know who weare. I think the better we know
who we are, the better were ableto be in, in relationship with
other people.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:27):
Yeah. living and working in the international
world. I still remember therewas one situation where I won't
name the country, but HRdirector of the company we were
working with, and we told him,We have successfully used
assessment tools across theemerging market economies. And
(07:47):
it's a no no, no, no, forgetabout that. That will never work
in this country. And people havewe proved it wrong in the end.
But people have said, well,these tools, they're all Western
tools. So you shouldn't usethose outside the Western world.
What would you say to you?
Obviously, I am not in thatcamp. Yeah. Well,
Linda Berlot (08:09):
I live and work here, I live in the UAE, I work
across the region, I'm usingthese tools with every team that
I work with, and all the teamsare intercultural. Because of
the nature of where we live, Iwould say actually, that many of
the tools are more from aWestern perspective. And, and so
there is always a need toexplain the tools explain the
(08:33):
language, when you are usingthose tools. But there are
certain tools that I use that Iam almost addicted to, because
they're simple, they're clean,they've been tested across
cultures, and they honor all thedifferent three worldviews. I
truly believe that in a, in amulticultural team or an
(08:53):
intercultural team, there is somuch complexity that's
happening, right. So mypreference is always to use
tools which are simpler, thatthe language is easy to
understand. Maybe it's beentranslated, and that the context
is clear also to understand,then the team can enjoy the
results together.
Marco Blankenburgh (09:14):
You raise a very interesting point, forgive
me for going into a little bitof a rabbit trail here, but some
people say well, I want the toolthat describes the human being
in the most comprehensive way.
And other people say what yousaid, I need a tool that people
can really understand in themoment and really unpack and yes
include or incorporate in theway they they grow together as
(09:38):
individuals and together as ateam. So this whole idea of the
tool needs to measure everythingabout me or the tool needs to
have enough substance enoughdepth so that I can grow as an
individual and as a team. So useyou use the word simple as
simpler to not simplistic. No.
(10:02):
So tell me a little bit moreabout that. Because I think
that's an important distinction.
Linda Berlot (10:07):
Yeah, I agree. I think in well, there's so much
complexity in the interculturalteams we're working with, right
from, from language, differentlanguages that we speak. And so
when we are listening or readingsomething, we perceive it
differently, you know, based onwhere we come from, and our
education, the way that we speakto each other, our personality
(10:29):
determines how we hear. So allof that is complex, I think, the
tools that if they give youenough information, one of the
gifts is to create aconversation with the team, and
to ask them, you know, how trueis this? How relevant is it? How
does it play out in your teamenvironment? And how do you move
(10:50):
from, from what may what thatmay show to creating agreements
that you guys can honor in your,what you call in, in your third
cultural space? Right? So forme, the conversation is also
extremely important that theteam members have around this,
or even the individual actually,because it's in the conversation
that we create awareness, andownership.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:11):
Yeah. So it's, it sounds like it's a
delicate balance, you want tohave sort of a tool that really
illuminates and that's that'svaluable. At the same time, if
if you bring too much complexityinto an already complex
situation, people get lost.
Yeah.
Linda Berlot (11:28):
Right. Do you know Marco, I've several times been
called in to work with a teamwhere they, they had
administered and psychometrictool, maybe at an individual
level or at a team level. Butthe the sentences were phrased
in a way that was confusing tothe intercultural team. The
context was not clear. And so itcreated a lot of upsets and
(11:52):
resentment and confusion,actually. And I remember on one
occasion, I had to go in withhim because I was trained in
that tool. We redid the tool,but I had to sit. And every time
they answered a question, I hadto explain what the question
meant. question by question byquestion. Yeah,
Marco Blankenburgh (12:09):
yeah. So it almost sounds like even the
tools are designed by culturalhuman beings? Yes. Yes. And it's
reflected in in the way thequestions are designed, the way
the feedback is articulated inthe report, etc. So that there
are probably, you know, wetalked about that earlier, this
(12:32):
idea, Oh, these are Westerntools. So, learning to navigate
that seems to be important, likethe example you just gave. So,
in our intercultural framework,we talk about tools that might
be more innocence, guiltoriented, where you're assuming
that the the person completingthe questions is purely looking
(12:54):
for the right answer. Yes.
versus somebody who might belooking for the honorable
answer, you know, how will I begiving an answer that myself, my
colleagues, my boss, willperceive as honorable, or where
it might be about hierarchy,positional power and your role
within the organization? Andthat's the main thing in my
head, as I'm answering thosequestions. So that influences
(13:17):
both how I perceive the flow ofthe questions, the way they're
articulated the way I'm going toanswer them. What motivates me
in terms of how I answer, haveyou seen situations where the
tool itself, you gave already anexample here, but Well, the tool
itself sort of needs culturalagility from you as a
(13:38):
facilitator or as a coach to dojustice to the tool?
Linda Berlot (13:43):
Yes, I have two clear examples, ones just popped
up now as it were speaking, oneexample is when the tool is a
very valuable tool. I love thetool. But the competencies that
they're measuring the leadersagainst are not culturally
sensitive, I would say. So forexample, looking for
transparency, right. Sotransparency in an in an honor,
(14:05):
shame, environments, may not bethe right thing to be looking
for, depending on, you know,maybe looking for being
honorable, as you mentioned amoment ago would be a better
measure in that environment. Butalso an interesting thing that I
has have started to noticeunless I'm clearly speaking to
(14:26):
that is that people respond tothe psychometric tool in terms
of what it should be. So insteadof who I am, and how it is what
it should be, and there's alittle bit of protectiveness
there when when someone is doingthat. So if we're using a disk
(14:48):
tool, for example, and disk,instead of saying this is who I
am, maybe I'm Heidi, orqualities that represents a high
D. I will check the s qualities,for example, because I believe
that that's the right thing tobe or the right behaviors to
have in a group setting. Right.
So that's super interesting.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:10):
Yeah. And along those lines, there's very
little research done on this. Iknow, in the world of Myers
Briggs, they've done a littlebit of research on this, where
they said, different leadershipstyles in different countries
are more celebrated or lesscelebrated. And, you know, I've,
you probably have seen the samewhere you go into a development
(15:33):
journey with a group of managersor a group of leaders. And they
will ask questions like, what'sthe best profile to have as a
manager?
Linda Berlot (15:40):
As if it's aspirational? Yes, yeah.
Marco Blankenburgh (15:43):
Yeah. So we have the application of tools,
the tools were designed by acertain person or a group of
people who have a certaincultural preference. So they
designed the tool in their imagein their cultural image, then
people like yourself, they takeit into the intercultural space,
you've talked about thatcomplexity. Could you just share
(16:04):
a few examples, we talked aboutsome of the challenges we face
in that, but examples of how youuse tools with with teams, for
instance, or groups of managersor leaders, I have so
Linda Berlot (16:15):
many examples.
Last year, I worked with a verylarge organization. It's an
international organization basedbased overseas, and they have a
regional office here in the UAE,the leadership team, or the
executive team is amulticultural team, as are all
of the employees. And I startedworking with the executive
(16:37):
leadership team. And we usedisk, I'm a real fan of disk,
because of all the reasons wewere just speaking about. For
me, this is a very powerfultool, it's validated, it takes
culture into consideration, thelanguage is clean and clear to
understand as is the context. SoI like that the reporting that
(16:58):
comes out is also beautiful,because it encourages a coaching
conversation. And I'm a fan ofboth the individual report that
the the executive gets, but alsothe team report, because it
allows the conversation then toshift away from self to the
team. So I worked with thisorganization, this is executive
(17:20):
leadership team, they werefeisty and fun, and they got so
much out of it the work, youknow, we we assessed the team,
we spent hours debriefing andunpacking the tools with the
individuals themselves, theexecutives, and then we took
them to a team level. Andreally, I had two sessions, two
team workshops with them, theythought it was so powerful that
(17:43):
they asked us to then roll itdown to the next two levels in
the organization. So we ran thisthroughout the organization. Of
course, the department headswhen they went through the
program found it powerful too,and and we were asked to then
run it throughout thedepartments, or many of the
departments. So all of a sudden,you've got an entire
(18:06):
organization, using disk as acommon language to describe each
other's behavior. It's light,it's fun, it's non threatening.
And, and it's a way that theycan help each other, be better
at being in relationship witheach other, to have better
conflict to have to raisetopics, but also to communicate
(18:26):
and approach each other. Sothis, it was very powerful, it
was light, it was fun. And it'stransformed their organization.
Marco Blankenburgh (18:37):
You make it sound like anybody could do
that. Of course, being certifiedas Yes, as an Everything DiSC
practitioner, that's the versionof this that we use with with
Wiley, which is a thirdgeneration of disc tools, with
Adaptive Testing included, etc.
But the fact that you are alsoan intercultural practitioner,
(19:00):
you're very familiar with theknowledge works approach with
the three quarters of worldviewand 12 dimensions of culture so
that that's almost like a secondscript that runs in your head as
you're working with people. Howdoes that make a difference? So
you're just certified, butyou're also an intercultural
practitioner.
Linda Berlot (19:22):
It's the lens through which I look through, I
cannot separate that fromanything else I do. I when I'm
working with a team, I seeintercultural issues light up in
front of me, like stringy andit's fascinating. And I use the
language to reflect back in theteam environment what what I'm
seeing, for example, I mighthave a, an Italian, D in the
(19:46):
room, and the Japanese D in theroom, and they're not relating
to each other. In the same wayeven though the qualities might
be the same. They demonstrate itvery differently. That would be
an intercultural piece that Iwould then demonstrate between
them. Or if we have a team thatis predominantly one, one
(20:07):
worldview, and some of the otherworldviews aren't in a minority,
and also maybe less lively orless, you know, dominant disc
styles, they would tend to bemarginalized. Because they've
they've, they have differentvalues around communication,
and, you know, the, in theinterpersonal space. So when I
(20:30):
see these intercultural issues,for me, it becomes very clear
what it is rather thanpersonality that it's
intercultural. And it gives theman opportunity to talk about
this,
Marco Blankenburgh (20:41):
right. So it's not just that you bring it
in, but it actually starts toshape how you facilitate. Yes,
absolutely. Absolutely. That'sfascinating. So what does that
look like? Because a lot ofthese psychometric tools, you
get trained on them, and you gettrained on a certain way of
(21:01):
facilitating debriefing, whatyou're now saying is that you
sometimes throw that into whenyou flow with the culture of
diversity and how culturemanifests itself in the room,
can you say a little bit more,
Linda Berlot (21:15):
I think, all the work that we do is in service
of, of the system, the team, andwe work with what emerges, we
work with what's already therethat they may not see. So my job
as a systems coach is to welcomeprepared well, and then just
keep working and revealing whatI am seeing whether it's
(21:37):
personality differences ormisunderstandings because of
culture, sometimes it's not amisunderstanding, sometimes they
just don't see that they aremissing each other, like two
ships in the night just becausethey're speaking a different
language, almost.
Marco Blankenburgh (21:53):
I'm reminded of, even last week, I was
facilitating a group and, andone of the people in the group
was came up to me bit nervousand said, Do we have to share
our reports with our colleagues?
And that was that wasn'tactually a cultural question.
It's like, how safe am I? So howdo you how do you create that?
It's fun, but it's also quiterevealing. It's deep, it could
(22:17):
be confrontational. But how doyou create a safe space? Where
eventually people might? Well,hopefully, you know, the
majority will start sharing witheach other learning from each
other? Having fun with it? Howdo you create that safe space?
Linda Berlot (22:34):
What you're speaking to is very important.
And I think one of my biggestfailures was overstepping that
piece. And I think what'simportant to do is to in the
assessment stage of the team, tonotice how much psychological
safety is there? How much trustis there? How much openness? And
how much is culture playing intothat, you know, is the culture
(22:59):
of the team toxic, so they don'thave psychological safety? Or is
it just because we're in anintercultural team, you know,
that safety means differentthings to different cultures. So
that's important to know. Andsome of the techniques might be
to, first of all, educate theleader, because depending on
what worldview though, they are,they want openness, and let's
(23:21):
talk about everything. And sothere might be some education
there that's needed, then theleader might have to stand up
and say, you know, everythingthat gets said in this workshop
stays in the workshop, thatthere will be no impact to your
performance management, to yourbonus to your anything back in
the workplace. And then, slowly,slowly, it's about when the team
(23:47):
does make itself vulnerable doestake a tentative step. It's
about showing them what they'redoing, and letting them know,
wow, look, there's a reallytrust here, you know, and so
really affirming, affirming andchampioning that trust and
safety keeps keeps growing.
Marco Blankenburgh (24:05):
Now, you mentioned an example of a leader
who says, let's put everythingon the table, etc. But I've also
met leaders who, in their ownpractice are totally the
opposite. Yeah. So if a leaderplays very cautiously, more or
less walks with a mask on, howdo you deal with leaders like
that? How do you use theirpresence in the room to either
(24:29):
shift the willingness from therest of the team? Do you have
any ideas or suggestions?
Linda Berlot (24:37):
So once I've assessed the team before I
actually start working with theteam, I spent a considerable
amount of time with the leader,asking questions trying to
understand number one, what arethey what is their personality?
What are they comfortable with?
What are they where do they feelvulnerable? And also what is
their culture? What'sappropriate for them and what
their mindset and then doesassigning some agreements
(25:00):
around, how do they want tointeract with me and me with
them? What's appropriate? Can Igive you feedback in the room?
Or personally outside privately?
What is the culture that you'rewanting to create? And how are
you as a leader behaving thatencourages that or blokes that?
(25:20):
And? And then if I see that, howwould you like me to feed that
back to you? So it's, it's an indepth conversation that I have.
I also like to talk about therank and privilege that leaders
have or that exists in the teamand ask the leader, how do we
want to work with that?
Marco Blankenburgh (25:39):
Right. And I often have seen if if there is
more of a hierarchicalrelationship, that if the leader
is willing to sort of demo, youknow, what is what might
appropriate drill nobility ortransparency look like? Then
that really opens up?
Absolutely.
Linda Berlot (25:57):
Absolutely. I worked once with a local bank.
And in the assessment, when Iasked the question, I normally
ask the question to the team. Noone answered, everybody looked
at the leader first. Yeah. Andonce the leader spoke, then they
spoke. And that was fascinatingto see. And two years on, they
achieved amazing return oneffectiveness, but also ROI,
(26:20):
because they are bank. So theyput $1 value to it. They became
open, transparent with eachother, able to have conflict in
a very open and respectful wayand to listen to each other. And
not to be afraid not to stayaway from each other and be
afraid of speaking at aninappropriate time or something
like that. That's fantastic. Itwas and the leader was
(26:42):
instrumental in helping the teamjust unlock itself.
Marco Blankenburgh (26:47):
So everything you're saying is, you
know, it's not just as simple asOkay, here's the access code, do
your questionnaire, we'll bringthe reports, see you next week,
we'll and we jump straight intothe room. There's, there's
almost like a slowing down. Yes,of really preparing well,
getting to know the team,getting to know the team leader
(27:09):
and working with the teamleader, almost like you're
coaching the team leader, evenbefore a workshop or a learning
journey starts.
Linda Berlot (27:17):
Absolutely. And as we're talking now, I'm realizing
that you know, it's also workingwith the leaders culture has
built innocence, innocence guiltleader might might say, treat me
the same. I'm open. If I'm theone if I'm the blocker pointed
out to me. And I can say tothem, yes. Okay, and I'm driving
(27:38):
this bus, you know, it can bethat open that transparent. And
other leaders, perhaps I can't Ihave to not defer but respect
the authority that lives andrespect the hierarchy and find
ways to work inside what alreadyexists.
Marco Blankenburgh (27:54):
Yeah, absolutely. So although you are
leading the facilitation itself,the leader is still respected
and honored for as being incharge.
Linda Berlot (28:05):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And sometimes it's about simplethings. Like using their name,
like saying something, and Iknow that you agree you I know
you see this too, or giving theleader an opportunity to open
the workshop each day, you know,so I'm driving the bus. Here it
is. Here's Linda. Yeah, I'm incharge. Yeah, it's small things
like that, which makes a
Marco Blankenburgh (28:27):
big difference. Yeah. Now, you know,
you've you've done this for manyyears. And what you've shared so
far is, there's a lot of insightthat you've gathered over the
years. I, sometimes you learn alot, especially for our
listeners, we learn a lot fromour mistakes. Are you willing to
(28:48):
share a few goof ups? A fewsituations that didn't go so?
Well? Yeah.
Linda Berlot (28:54):
Absolutely. I think we, look, we're human too,
right. And as as much as we wantto think I'm professional, I'm
trained, I'm prepared. I think,working in an intercultural
environment, you can prepare ashard as you can. And sometimes
there are going to be thingsthat either you've missed or you
step over or, or kind ofunexpectedly pop up that you
(29:16):
didn't, you know, I can think ofwell to two separate occasions.
One was purely an interculturalpiece that I stepped over. And
yeah, I was working with it witha team and I said something that
Dishonored or was perceived asdishonorable by one of the team
members. And so, I had to, I hadto find a way to quickly allow
(29:40):
the person to say face again infront of the group and then take
it to a group learning, but Ialso worked with the team also
intercultural, I thought thatthey would get a lot of value
out of becoming self aware, thatculture in the organization was
quite toxic. And I thought, whatif I start with the lead To ship
team and help them see theimpact they are having on the
(30:04):
culture, you know, fix theculture. What I totally did not
see that kind of popped up was.
So accountability is hard. Ifyou're trying to save face if
you the accountability pieceshows itself in different ways.
So I thought, you know, let's dothe tool, let's use this clips,
coach them around, coach, eachindividual leader on the scene
(30:26):
and their reports. And that willhelp them increase emotional
intelligence. But it doesn'tnecessarily change the way that
we feel we can takeaccountability, sometimes. It's
not just about I'm unwilling totake accountability, sometimes I
don't feel that I can. Becauseit's not up to me, it's up to
(30:47):
someone else, or the group orthe leader or, you know, so I
missed that piece. And I'vesince learned and since
understood that, before you cando the assessment even. There's
questions that are needed to beasked, in terms of
accountability, hierarchy, howmuch can you contribute? You
(31:08):
know, and
Marco Blankenburgh (31:12):
I think that's where or SC is also so
powerful, because you're notjust dealing with individuals,
those organizations, thoseindividuals work in an
organizational system, yes, thatsystem might be working against
you, as individuals might say, Iwant to change but then they go
back to the office or back tothe organization. And the system
doesn't allow them to do that
Linda Berlot (31:33):
the wider system, I'm currently working with a
very well known company here inthe UAE. I'm working with the
leadership team, but not theexecutive team. And the leaders
are impacted by the culturethat's driven by the CEO and the
executive team. So so there's alot that we can do and help them
(31:54):
you know, work on what's ontheir sphere of influence, and
that but at a certain point,we're going to have to tackle
the elephant in the room, whichis how do you want to be with
the wider culture?
Marco Blankenburgh (32:06):
Right, right. And as soon as you step
into that, then it's not just afew workshops here, and then it
becomes a journey. Right? Andthose things take time.
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, I alreadymentioned that, you know, we're
working with everything discfrom Wiley. And just
historically, because of thehistory of disc and Marston
(32:27):
developing the framework, andeventually there are, you know,
it resulted in many differentservice providers that all use
the label disc. But there aremany, many different versions
out there. Wiley has bothEverything DiSC and the five
behaviors, they publishedPatrick Lencioni, his book, so
five dysfunctions of a team ispublished through Wiley and all
(32:49):
of his other books. And as aresult, they built the five
behaviors assessment whichintegrates disc, why use the
Everything DiSC family, so tospeak, as well as the five
behaviors products from Wiley.
While there is so much otherchoice out there in the disc
world.
Linda Berlot (33:07):
You're asking me this, because you know, these
are my favorite. Because Mako, Ihave seen different versions of
just out there. I've been usingthis for many, many years. And
the reason why I like EverythingDiSC is because well, apart from
the reason the fact that itkeeps updating itself, the
(33:29):
language is easy to understand.
It's becoming more and moreculturally relevant, translated
in different languages. I lovethe reporting, the reporting is
now easier to use in a coachingsituation. So it's not just that
the psychometric tool is adiagnostic tool. It's also
become a developmental tool,which, of course, for a systems
coach, like myself is ideal. Butalso, I believe that the
(33:51):
individual then the team createthe culture in the team. So for
me, it's very important to belooking at who is in the team in
terms of individuals, but also,when we are together when we are
working together, the dynamicscreate trust and the ability for
us to, to, to be accountable andto drive for team results. So
(34:14):
it's important to look at both,I think you can't work, in my
opinion, just on the individualfor the reason you mentioned
earlier, I am an individual, ifI have accountability and I know
what to do doesn't mean I willbe successful in a team
environment. So it's importantto look at both. And I love both
of those tools because they caneasily be integrated and they
(34:37):
are not simplistic, but theinformation that they give is
extremely powerful and easy tounderstand. Right? And therefore
work with
Marco Blankenburgh (34:48):
and building that bridge from from your
behavioral style to how do we dotrust, how to create productive
conflict commitment,accountability, traffic driving
salts, and then doing that witha deep understanding of the
cultural dynamics that'sincredibly rich.
Linda Berlot (35:06):
Absolutely. I really believe that as humans,
we have a lot of expectationsand assumptions. And so we, we
want to move away fromassumptions to agreements. But
we can't come up with Teamagreements unless we talk about,
you know, what does trust meanto us from from different
cultures? You know, somebodymight say, you have to behave in
(35:29):
a trustworthy manner. Someoneelse might say to you, No, for
me trust is if you've got myback no matter what. And so that
those are the conversations veryrich and deep conversations that
we want to create between teammembers, so that they can get
closer,
Marco Blankenburgh (35:45):
right? Now there's last time I looked at
this, this giver takes five 600psychometric tools in the world.
So even you probably haveexperienced working with clients
who use a certain tool. Peopleget certified on these tools.
And we then meet people who say,Oh, I'm struggling with
(36:07):
implementing this or I'mstruggling with making it come
alive, or the language in thereport, people can't really
grasp it, or there's thechallenges that we just talked
about. So we've come across, youknow, strengths finders, for
instance, Myers Briggs, we havepeople on our team who are even
using Myers Briggs, we have morecomplex leadership tools like
(36:29):
Hogan and Berkman or leadershipcircle, we already briefly
talked about Five Behaviors of aCohesive Team, for all the
listeners that arepsychometrically certified in
some way or another, but whoneed to use those tools in an
intercultural diverse setting.
What would you say to them? Howdo they start on the journey to
get closer to where you aretoday? Having both those
(36:51):
spotlights really clear thecultural side, the psychometric
side is clearly in front of you.
You said, it lights up like astring you said earlier on? How
do you how do you advise peopleto get to that point,
Linda Berlot (37:05):
I use many of those tools myself, I would say
the first the starting point forme is get trained on
intercultural intelligence. Ithink if you're operating in
this part of the world, this isa foundation which we cannot
step over, I think when culturescollide, and there is so much
potential for healing and growthand love as well as
(37:29):
misunderstanding and pain. Sofor me, that's the first step.
And then really, trulyunderstand your your team or
your system and who is in thesystem, before making a choice
of what psychometric tool touse. So adapt the tool to the
team, not the team to the toolthat you have would be my best
(37:50):
piece of advice.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:51):
Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And for our
listeners, you will findinformation about the the
intercultural intelligencecertifications in the in the
notes, as well as contactinformation for Linda. There's
so many more things we couldtalk about, you've been doing
this for at least 15 plus years.
And you could tell many stories,but I would love for us to close
(38:14):
up with one more story, whereyou've seen how it really
transformed not justindividuals, but also teams and
the organization as a whole.
Linda Berlot (38:26):
I recently started working with a small university
and the mother University isWestern. But there is a branch
here in the UAE. And also, Istarted with the leadership
team, and we use disk in this inthis case. Yeah, I couldn't, I
(38:47):
can't remember if we use theintercultural I don't think we
have yet we use disk, theleadership team just loved it.
By the end of the the firststage of the journey, which was
the assessment, the coaching,the individual coaching, and the
first team, this workshop, the,the team leader said, Wow, I
(39:09):
feel like for the very firsttime we are a team. And that was
so moving, they just it wasalmost like all these lights,
they started to see each otherand pass the frustrations that
they had been having. And thattriggered the desire to run that
throughout the organization. Soin around September last year,
(39:30):
we were asked, please, Coachanother almost 100 people by the
15th of December. So we didthat. And it's extremely
powerful, what's changed? Notleast of all, so we've created a
more in depth understanding ofwho the individuals are and who
we're working with, but notleast of all it's given them an
(39:51):
understanding of Wow. So this iswho we are as individuals and as
a culture. And this is how weare different went to the
mothership, if you will. Themothership is wanting to, you
know, just carbon copy in in theUAE. And they're starting to see
that that can't work. So nowwe're doing that piece of work.
Marco Blankenburgh (40:15):
That opens up a whole other conversations,
which sometimes gets politicalas well. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Well, it's fascinating,always wonderful to listen to
you and the wealth of experienceyou have. So thank you for for
joining us again, and talk aboutthis important subject. And for
(40:36):
our listeners, as I mentioned,we've always share information
to connect with our hosts andour guests. So you'll find that
information. If you want toconnect with Linda and her team,
Linda has a company calledburnout group. And we partner
extensively with Linda and herteam. So it's, uh, find the
(40:58):
information in the notes andconnect with her or connect with
our team. And we will, we'll putyou in contact with her. So
thank you so much for, for doingthis and for for sharing your
story today.
Linda Berlot (41:09):
Monica, thank you for inviting me, I always find
our conversations priceless,such a gift to be able to talk
about a passion that we bothshare. But also, I want to thank
you and your team for thesupport that you give our team
and equipping us and upskillingus and tooling us with all the
tools that you you have we couldnot do the work that we do
(41:30):
without the work that you do.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:34):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
Best way to help us out is byleaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app orchannel. Force forward and
recommend this podcast peoplearound you. As always, if any of
the topics we discussed todayintrigue you, you will find
(41:55):
links to articles discussingthem in greater depth in the
podcast notes. If you would liketo learn more about
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
culturally agile, you can findmore information and hundreds of
articles at knowledge works.comA special thanks to Jason Carter
for composing the music on thispodcast and to the whole
(42:18):
knowledge works team for makingthis podcast a success. Thank
you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as thisbackyard Raji Suraj. And thanks
to VIP and George for audioproduction, Rosalind Mirage for
scheduling, and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
produce this podcast
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