January 8, 2023 • 59 mins
How do you create a thriving intercultural marriage or relationship?
The challenges of the last few years have taught us that quality relationships are crucial for success in work and life. Listen to these stories of relational success to learn how to build better relationships at home and work.
Bart and Julie Heiligenberg and Bryce and Thelma Dzirbik share their stories walking through life bringing together cultures from the USA, Netherlands, and Nigeria in the UAE.
If you are interested in being part of a thriving intercultural marriage workshop you can email Bart@KnowledgeWorkx.com .
In this episode, you will learn
- How culture influences some of our deepest relationships
- How to build resilient long-lasting intercultural relationships
- How to practically build trust across cultures in relationships
| Articles
-- Building Deep Relationships that Cross Cultures (http://kwx.fyi/deep-relationships-crossing-cultues)
-- Four Keys for Building Trust on Teams (http://kwx.fyi/building-trust-teams)
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bart Heiligenberg (00:00):
You can only change somebody's mind over
dinner. And what it means islike, you know, nobody's going
to change their mind because ofyour opinions, they're only
going to change their mindbecause they see the person
behind the opinions. If I wantto change somebody's mind, I
just need to invest in them, Ineed to befriend them, I need to
(00:20):
have them over for dinner. Andthen of course, the dangerous
but I have to vote within andthey might actually change my
life because I see what kind ofperson they are. Because that's
what we're missing is we stoppedseeing each other as people as
persons. And we started seeingsomebody as a caricature of the
ideology or their religion orthe political conviction, etc.
(00:43):
So we need to go back to seepeople as people.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:57):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(01:18):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome, everybody, to this nextepisode of our cultural agility
podcast. And I'm very excitedabout today's recording, because
we have two inter culturalcouples in our virtual studio.
(01:38):
And I'm really excited aboutthis conversation. So what Julie
Bryce and, Thelma, thank you forjoining us today. And I'm very
much looking forward to hearyour stories. And how the
intercultural side of it orrelationships have impacted your
lives in a variety of ways. So,maybe Bryce and Salma if you
(02:01):
could start with a briefintroduction, and Barton. Julie,
have you follow suit, and thenwe'll go straight into the
conversation.
Bryce Dzirbik (02:10):
Thanks, Marco. My name is Bryce, and I'm here with
my wife.
Thelma Dzirbik (02:15):
Salma tele. Now, I'm from Nigeria.
Bryce Dzirbik (02:19):
And I'm from the US.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:22):
Wonderful, so good to have you. Thank you.
Julie Heiligenberg (02:27):
I'm Julie.
And I'm from the States. Andcurrently, we're overseas. And
this is where Bart and I metmany years ago. And I'm staying
home with our two teenagers are12 and 14. So it's good to be
here.
Bart Heiligenberg (02:41):
So I'm Bart.
I'm from the Netherlands. Thepart that's called Holland
actually. And I met my wife,Julie, in the United Arab
Emirates in a city called align.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:52):
Awesome.
Thank you so much. So Barton,Julie, you already started to
get into a little bit of yourstory. But maybe, for our
audience, maybe you want to adda few things in terms of how you
met how you got to know eachother?
Bart Heiligenberg (03:06):
Yeah, we actually met in the Emirates,
in, in church, actually. And Ikind of stood out because I was
the only single guy that I metat church. And I just remember
Julie saying, after reading.
Yeah, she really liked me,though, I had a few weird things
(03:26):
around me. And she still likedme. So that was good. And then
as we got married, actually hadhalf my family coming over to
the states, and spent a weekwith us before the wedding and
helping and changed. It waslike, oh, not by test a few
weird things throughout themidst of Emily does. And then we
were lucky a year later to spendsix months in the Netherlands.
(03:50):
And she came to the conclusionthat it's the whole country that
is weird. And that's culture.
Julie Heiligenberg (03:58):
Yes, I remember, in our early days of
getting to know each other, andeven the first year of marriage,
how direct wire it was, and someof his friends or family
members. And it was sometimes itwas really hard to me. Because
you know, I come from a culturethat I guess it's just very
affirming. and think, oh, youcan't talk can't talk to people
(04:20):
like that. And I was the onlyone that had a problem with
everybody else was fine. Andthey were laughing and I just
learned that those are justdifferences in humor is
sometimes doesn't cross culturesand translate very well. And it
was just different. I had tolearn their way of talking and
different directness and humoreven and I just grew into that
and really learn to embrace andlove who Bart is and understand
(04:42):
who he is. Yeah, it was thoseearly days. So differences.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:46):
Fantastic.
So Bryson, Salma, how did youguys meet?
Bryce Dzirbik (04:51):
Well, I moved to Dubai in 2018 for work, and I
met my Oh, now what is it in?
Churches? Well,
Thelma Dzirbik (05:05):
yeah, I was here. I moved here for
university sent me to Dubai foruniversity, around four years
before Bryce moved here. And Iwas going into this church
called covenant hope. And Iactually heard advice before he
showed up because he had emailedthe church asked me if he could
bring some instruments becausehe plays a lot of musical
instruments, which has beengreat. But yeah, so that's,
(05:27):
that's how I got to hear aboutprice. I actually heard about
him that this American guy wasgoing to come and he is willing
to help us with our music, whichis exciting. And so he showed
up. And of course, he reallystood out. Because I mean, I
tried to be diverse, but youknow, when a new person steps
in, because he just prettydifferent. Yeah, so that was how
we met.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:48):
Fantastic, fantastic. Now, you already
started to learn what to whatattracted you to each other? And
I'm curious to hear a little bitmore about that. So maybe
someone will just keep talking.
Yeah. So
Thelma Dzirbik (06:03):
let me see, the first thing I learned about
Bryce was just how much he lovedto interact with people, like
his love for people. I rememberthe first time I actually
spotted him, he was talking to afriend of mine, right across the
room. And I had this, you know,I wanted to tell my friend about
my week. So I just stood in linekinda behind him awkwardly at
(06:24):
the side, just kind of waitingfor him to finish whatever he
was talking to her about. And Ijust was like, Oh, this guy,
like just really both talking topeople. So I was the first thing
that attracted me to him. And Iguess that's kind of a little
bit also like a culturaldefense, because I just feel
like, it's kind of very, like hewould approach someone first,
which I think in my culture,sometimes we kind of wait for
(06:46):
people to approach us first. SoI kind of feel like that was
like a, it was something theychatted into him for stuff.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:54):
So Bryce, I was it on your side of the fence
Bryce Dzirbik (06:56):
for me, someone definitely stood out. And she
was much more outgoing than me.
And so I was definitelyattracted to her excitement and
joy about life. So and herexcitement and joy, I'm cheering
others on, both in their faithand in different life events. I
(07:20):
remember, once she asked for aride, to see if someone to drop
her off to cheer a friend whowas skydiving. So she made a
sign. And then she was going tocheer on her friend as she
landed, and just observinginstances of like, that, of her
(07:40):
excitement and going to cheer uson was very attractive.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:49):
Wonderful.
Well, I didn't, Julie, youalready started to talk about
the uniqueness of, of Dutchversus American culture. But you
already alluded to what drew youto each other. So anything you
want to add to that, from thoseearly moments?
Julie Heiligenberg (08:06):
Yeah, I remember, Bart, I was single
living overseas, learning,teaching English as a second
language, just kind of going onwith my life. And as we would
come to church, or differentmutual friends houses, who would
always be where everywhere, it'slike, he would just show up, it
just kept coming into my life.
And a paid attention. I paidattention to his heart, his the
(08:27):
way he would walk around andtalk to people, everybody. And
he was learning the locallanguage. And we were kind of
working together sometimes. Andit's just more and more my heart
was open to this guy who waswholly different than me,
different culture, differentlanguage, different personality,
different gifting, and an acuteaccent. So all of that just
(08:50):
attracted me. And we grew. Imean, we really, really had to
think through like, Well, I wasenjoying my life, you know, I
was living where I wanted to be.
And it was really cool to meetsomeone who had some similar
values and really wanted to livelife together in a common way.
(09:12):
So it was really cool.
Marco Blankenburgh (09:15):
So Bart, from from California to North
Holland, very different worlds.
What attracted you in in jewelryfrom those early days?
Bart Heiligenberg (09:24):
Wow, now I have to go back in memory for 20
plus years. I think whatattracted me and Julie, I
remember my roommate and I, wehad a lot of fun. We had a lot
of parties, actually. And lotsof singles parties, thanks to an
Arab friend who really loveshosting those parties. And what
(09:47):
attracted me to God was that sheshe had a passion in her life,
passion to do certain things,and she was willing to give up
comfortable life To pursuepassions, and that really stood
out to me, somebody who wantedto follow him nations, and young
(10:08):
as our passions and the joiningup, which is to suit passion
together.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:14):
That's powerful. In the midst of that,
of course, you are bothintercultural couples from very
different worlds. So, what weresome of those early moments,
right and found out when youstarted to discover those
cultural differences?
Thelma Dzirbik (10:32):
I would say, I think one of my earliest
memories of thinking, Oh, mygoodness, price is so different,
was when he would say, Hey, I'mcoming to pick you up at 2pm.
And he would show up at my door,you know, like five minutes
before 2pm. And I'm like, Oh, mygoodness, you're so early, that
I thought you were gonna belike, 215, or to 30. Just, you
(10:58):
know, with my culture, it's alot about like, not only like
being late to things where wejust take our time to do things.
And so that was very differentfor me. And I think even with
that, I realized that wereprices, culture is a lot is like
a lot of like time oriented.
Meanwhile, for my culture is alot more like relationship
(11:19):
oriented. So say, if price hadscheduled, we were gonna have a
date from two to 4pm. Here'skind of already, you know,
thinking about like, oh, it'sclose to 4pm, we're gonna round
up and I'm like, oh, man, jointhis conversation. Let's keep
going. And we can keep going,you know, cuz it's, you know,
this is a nice conversation. Ithink that was one of my first.
(11:41):
Yeah, it was one of my firstthings that I noticed was really
different with our coaches.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:48):
Yeah, that's, that's great. Our
concepts of time are radicallydifferent from around the world.
And so a great example of that.
Now, Julie, you alreadymentioned, how, if I can say the
word honesty is handled verydifferently in web art comes
from and his family, you onlyalluded to it, but maybe tell us
a little bit more about that.
(12:10):
And how did you discover thoseearly cultural difference
between you and bards culturaljourney?
Julie Heiligenberg (12:18):
Yes, I guess at one point, our second year of
marriage, we spent six months inHolland with his family and
around his family, we had ourown place. But we spent a lot of
time at his house, where he grewup, and he's one of seven kids.
So you know, it's a big family.
And I had a lot of culture tolearn so but I think my being in
(12:39):
the Middle East, I expected alot of culture shock me in in
Holland, I, I didn't really Ithought, Oh, we were kind of
Westerners were very similar.
But living there and living lifethere. I remember being
surprised by the hospitality ofhis family. And I, we don't in
(13:02):
California, I don't think weeven know how to do hospitality.
One or two hours, and thenyou're out the door, you
wouldn't really spend time awhole long, long time all day
with people. But with Bart andhis friends and family, we'd
spent four or five hours, all inDutch, all coolest for me.
Sometimes people would translateeveryone smile. And just the
(13:23):
time they took to be withpeople. Yeah, you still schedule
that time. But when you're withpeople, you spend the time and
that was a pleasant surprise,just hospitality and all kinds
of coffee times that I didn'trealize were really important in
the mornings and the afternoonsin the evenings. And even one
(13:43):
time I was upstairs, it waseight o'clock at night. And I
was supposed to come down forcoffee time. And I remember
telling about I'm not thirsty.
You just gave me the look likeI'm, it's come down and I was
like, Okay, this is reallyimportant to him and to his
family. And I came down, satwith my mother in line, even if
I didn't drink coffee, because Ithought I'm not gonna sleep. She
just said, Well, what else wouldyou like to drink and just the
(14:06):
fact that I was there andspending that time was
important. And I think I learneda lot about the value of family
and time, just don't in thosesix months that I hadn't seen in
our first couple years ofmarriage overseas, because we
were in a neutral place, not inmy culture or his culture. We
were we were in the Emirates.
And that was a really big eyeopener for me.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:29):
That's beautiful. And maybe also
something you know, that is itshows the difference across
Dutch society. Some people mightbe like the highly convex, very
hospitable very peoplerelationship oriented and others
might not. Rise. Thelma alludedto the different view on time.
(14:50):
What was it for you that thatreally helped you understand?
Wow, we are very differentculturally.
Bryce Dzirbik (14:58):
Yeah, the difference Some time was
definitely something I noticedas well. Another thing else
would be noticed, is not justdifferences in our cultures of
where we grew up, but alsodifferences in family culture.
So even if I grew up in the US,you know, each family in the US
in the sense has their ownculture. And same in Nigeria.
(15:21):
So, for example, incommunication, generally
speaking, people in the US wouldbe known to be more direct, and
people in Eastern cultures to bemore indirect. But we found in
our case that me growing up inMidwest where people are quote,
Midwest, nice. I was more theindirect one. And Thumma was her
(15:44):
family was more direct. So forme, I had more experience like
you, Julie, where I was like,wow. So there's been several
would say things that wouldsound very harsh to me. But the
more I got to know them, Ilearned to appreciate her
directness, because I knew shewas sharing those things.
Because she loved me, and caredfor me. And so yeah, as you get
(16:09):
to know, culture, it's, it'shelpful to seek to know, the
specific culture person grew upand not just in addition to the
general culture of theircountry.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:20):
Yeah, and you bring up something that's
really important, and somethingthat we're passionate about it
knowledge works, as well as thiswhole idea that if you say, you
know, the average American, theaverage Nigerian, the average
Dutch, and you use that as yourbaseline, then very likely,
you're going to discover a wholebunch of other things that might
be radically opposite, like theexample you just gave Bryce. So
(16:42):
this whole idea that we all areon our own cultural journey, and
especially when you then startan intimate relationship,
discovering what that journey isthen becomes super important. So
but, Julie, you've lived a longtime in California. And, Julie,
you alluded to that first timewhen you started to live in
(17:03):
barbed sculpture. But what wasit like for you to actually
started living in the US? Whatdid you discover about Julie
maybe about her family, that younever realized when you were
living in the third culture inthe Arabian Gulf?
Bart Heiligenberg (17:19):
Well, I was lucky that I did go to the US a
couple of times before weactually spent the six months
there. And we actually had a lotof American friends living here
more than we had that trends. Sofor me, it was like a gradual
easing in. I think one of thethings that stood out for me in
(17:41):
Southern California is it's avery driven culture. And I was
not used to that. TheNetherlands, but especially here
after two or three years in theMiddle East, it's a lot more
relaxed. Can Julie's family isvery close knit, similar to
(18:05):
mine, but still in a differentway. We are very quiet people,
my family. You won't really hearthe words I love you that much.
It's an indirect ways where herfamily is very frugal, very
frugal with affirmation withaffection. And those were the
(18:28):
differences that stood out. And,of course, the whole famous
Americans are very famous forsaying sorry. I know in the
beginning of my Marriotts, Julieand I went, we get away with a
couple of other American friendsand like a day and a half. And I
asked her like, what's wrongwith me? This guy keeps saying
(18:51):
story to me like 50 times anhour. And I mean, being nice. I
mean, we only say sorry, if youliterally knock somebody over or
you, you punch him in the face.
But I had to learn in America,they some beat, somebody might
say certainly if they come lessthan six feet, the less than six
feet away from you because theyfeel the invading personal space
(19:12):
or something like that. So I hadto get used to those things.
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:20):
There's so much more to say about that.
Thank you for that. But the wordsorry. Yes. I've heard that
many, many times. So we'vetalked a little bit we've we've
had on this idea of time,concepts of time concepts of
directness versus indirectness.
In terms of our communication,ideas of honesty. One of the
(19:41):
tools that we love to use inknowledge works is three colors
of worldview. Talking aboutdoing the right thing, avoid
doing the wrong thing, pursuinghonor, avoiding shame, or
looking at hierarchy as Inposition in relationships, and
navigating, who's in whatposition in an appropriate way?
(20:05):
Maybe Bart and Julie are, how dothose things influence the way
you you grow in a relationship?
Have you seen differences there?
As you got to know each otherbetter?
Bart Heiligenberg (20:21):
I think for Julie and myself, when you look
at the three colors ofworldview, I think Julie and I
are very similar in thatinnocence. Guilt is right and
wrong is very strong for us. Andthe others are not as important.
But I think what I've seen isthat it's still important for me
(20:46):
as a husband, to not just doright by my wife, but also to
watch out for her honor and toempower her. So Do not just look
at that strongest willedscrewdriver. But all the other
ones are just as important tothrive in a relationship.
Julie Heiligenberg (21:03):
Yeah, I think for us, I'm, I'm a
stronger personality. So eventhough I have a similar
worldview, I could easilydishonor Bart in a way that
would really make him eitherangry or be feel shame. And I
had to learn early on to be verycareful how I speak. And the way
(21:25):
I say things to not crush hisspirit is just you know, really
strong women can just bowledover some guys. And I think
learning Bart had such a gentle,quiet spirit, even though he was
definitely strong. And he's hespeaks his mind. It was a
personality difference more thancultural maybe. And I'm, I
(21:48):
remember learning Well, this isa way to honor him and value who
he is, is to be careful andlearn how to speak in a way that
shows love, even though I canexpress myself, especially in in
a way that's not going tooverpower or diminish who he is.
And I, I really had to learnthat in our marriage, especially
(22:08):
I learned it in friendshipsalong in my life. But in a
marriage, it can be so crushingand so destructive, when you
don't speak, life andencouragement and he said
empowerment. And you actuallycan tear someone down.
Marco Blankenburgh (22:25):
And I think that's such an important
insight. Because, you know,we're, we're talking about the
subject of, you know,intercultural relationships
today, but at the same time,what you're raising Julie's so
important that we're bothcultural human beings, but we're
also human beings with apersonality and a behavioral
style. And both are incrediblyimportant to become aware of,
(22:48):
first of all, your own, ofcourse, and then the cultural
wiring and the behavioral styleof the other person, Thelma,
rice, anything to add to that,yeah, we're
Thelma Dzirbik (23:01):
just trying to remember, just, I mean, the
first time we heard of those,like categories of the
worldview, and surprisingly, I'mmore like, in my culture, in
terms of a general sense, willbe more like on a shame. A
little bit of power here, too,because I'm from the northern
(23:23):
part of Nigeria. But I thinkjust because I've like, grown up
outside of the country, in asense that I came here, when I
was a teenager, I came to Dubaiwhen I was a teenager. And it
was really surrounded by like,Americans and like, Asian
people, and like people from theUK, so just really kind of
(23:44):
absorb different cultures aroundme. And I kind of be more
towards right and wrong, in asense. So I think that has
actually made rice and I getalong somewhat, because I can
see where he's coming from.
Sometimes when he's when he'smore strong on like, Oh, should
do this, because it's right.
(24:05):
Even though he would stand forthat a lot more than I would, I
would still walk in the room andthink about who is the most
senior person in the room. Ithink that just like is at the
back of my mind every time and Isee it a lot at work. So
something that we've alsorealized is so I work with a
local company here and Bryce onthe other hand works with an
American company. And I workcultures are just so different,
(24:29):
because I have more you know,more Asians in my my company. So
there's a lot of like, powerfear around in the sense that
people are very aware and wouldalways listen to whoever's in
authority and would, you know,talk a certain way to someone
there's an authority versussomeone that they see as the
peer or below them. versus,versus with Bryce. It's kind of
(24:50):
refreshing for his for theculture in this company is more
kind of like a flat culture. Sojust even realizing that I think
I've been at work already.
realize that that's somethingI've had to be aware of like
that everyone around me things.
Not really everyone, but mostpeople around me think in a lot
like, oh, this person is anauthority. So we should do what
(25:12):
they say you should do more soeven a little bit without
questioning it a lot, just dueto my personality. And my one
question, even though Irecognize the majority. And so
that's just kind of ways thatthat's played out, you know, my
relationship with other peopleat work, and also in our
relationship with each other.
Bryce Dzirbik (25:29):
And as we talk about work with each other,
yeah, it's helpful for me toremember that her work is a
different culture. Yeah. And totry to keep that in mind.
Thelma Dzirbik (25:42):
Yeah. So an advice of my work for vices
workplace within work for mine.
So just keeping that at the backof our minds, as we like, talk
with each other, or even thinkthrough something that's
happening, you know, in eachother's relationships with other
people.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:57):
Yeah. So So these three colors are well
viewed as they're not just youknow, with, with loved ones
were, you know, friends, butthey also are at play in work
cultures. And you, you gave justbeautiful illustrations of that.
So on the one hand, we'retalking, you know, as
intercultural couples, but atthe same time, I'm just curious,
(26:17):
the lessons you've learned ascouples, how can people
potentially apply those in anyintercultural relationship, so
we can think of the challengesthat you have seen and the
things you had to navigate aswell as the beautiful things?
What should people be aware of,in pretty much any intercultural
(26:38):
relationship? What would beyour, your, let's say, your top
two or three things that youwould like to communicate to our
listeners?
Bart Heiligenberg (26:46):
It's funny because I started the business
part. So like, hey, this appliesto our intimate relationships as
well. And now we go the otherway around, we started intimate
relationships, and how can weapply it to, for instance,
business? I think the things Ilearned is, it is important to
assume positive intent by theother, especially when you're
(27:09):
culturally different. Acolleague, or a friend is not
out there to tear you down.
Sometimes they really thinkdifferent. And you just have to
ask, like, Hey, what is goingon? Why are you saying this? But
you cannot always do that in themoment. Because a lot of
cultures context is everything.
(27:32):
And in the Netherlands, I canstop somebody in their tracks in
front of a lot of colleagues,and that is fine. In most
countries of the world, you haveto do it after what in a private
setting. I said, Okay, what yousaid, it came across like it was
just what you meant. Yeah,
Thelma Dzirbik (27:51):
I was actually going to mention that, I think
assumptions, not to makeassumptions of what people are
intending to say or intended tomean. And just kind of assuming
the best of people, and alwaysasking questions, just like you
said, but I think that'ssomething I've realized,
honestly, even working withpeople from different cultures,
(28:11):
because I've been working atAkamai at this company for
around five years. And it'sgetting more diverse by the
second and it's a really bigcompany, but just even how its
integrated into the culture ofthe company is to realize that,
okay, people from differentplaces and have would act and
think differently. But how muchit's so empowering to know that
(28:32):
just because you think in thisway, and someone else is seeing
it from a different point ofview, but doesn't necessarily
mean that that point of view iswrong and uses right. So kind of
coming to people with the humbleattitude of wanting to learn and
see where they're seeing thingsfrom, as one thing that I've
realized,
Bryce Dzirbik (28:52):
and some of the things in our relationship with
each other where at first, whenone of us does something, it's
easy, might be easy to get upsetabout it. Because we're assuming
they mean something, or I'massuming that somebody means
something by the action that shedoesn't actually mean. And so it
takes effort and remindingmyself to actually dig deeper,
(29:17):
to ask questions, to listen totry to understand the why
behind. Yeah, specific action, I
Thelma Dzirbik (29:24):
guess even I mean, thinking of an example,
even with the time thing, I gotto realize the price really felt
like if I wasn't keeping to thetime, they had said to me that I
wasn't caring for him, or I justdidn't care about his time.
Meanwhile, in my mind, I justnever thought about it that way.
Like I just never thought, oh, Idon't care about your time
though. I'd never say that. Inever said that. But I was kind
(29:46):
of communicating that with myaction. And Bryce was kind of
absorbed in that and thinking ofmy action in that way. Until we
had like multiple conversationsabout it where, you know, he
came to realize that I justwasn't like intending to Don't
disrespect him by not coming ontime to something. And multiple
other examples like that, wherewe just find that it's easier
(30:09):
when we asked and just kind ofsee what the other person was
thinking.
Marco Blankenburgh (30:14):
It sounds like, it really sounds like
slowing things down and notdrawing conclusions too quickly.
That seems to be a theme fromfrom what you've been sharing,
but also learning to ask goodquestions. So we always talk
about, you know, being acultural learner and being a
cultural learner, the why Brycethat you were alluding to
(30:35):
understanding the wild. And youcan only do that by slowing
things down and asking questionsand listening. And it's so
incredibly important. One thingthat keeps on coming back, no
matter what type ofintercultural relationship we
talk about, is the topic oftrust. And it's so big right now
especially, we're seem to be onthe tail end, sort of the COVID
(31:00):
pandemic. So many people havealluded to either how trust has
eroded because people were notin the same space, or when it
came to the family space, peoplehave indicated that trust has
grown because they were, quote,unquote, forced to spend time
together. But trust is always abig topic, especially in the
intercultural space. So how doeshow does your cultural
(31:24):
worldview? How does thatinfluence the way you see trust
in your relationship? Is thereactually a difference? Do we
feel trust in different ways?
Julie Heiligenberg (31:34):
I think trust means different things to
different people. And whetherit's in your marriage, or
relationships at work in theneighborhood, especially if
there's people from a differentculture, a different worldview,
it's really important tounderstand what builds trust
with them. And how do I how do Icome across in the West, you
(31:56):
know, we tend to just givetrust, give people the benefit
of the doubt, because we don'twant to judge people at first,
get to know them, and then we'llsee. And before we make any
conclusions, we like to justspend that time but in other
cultures, especially from honor,same worldview, trust is given
kind of within the family withinthe tribe and no small circle,
(32:17):
but outsiders have to earn thattrust. And then if you enter
into a family and extendedfamily, because when you marry,
you marry the family, you maynot be the highest trust level
with everyone, because you'vecome into a whole history,
culture, a tribe, and it has tobe earned. And that's really
(32:38):
hard, especially if you're aspouse. And I've also had people
ask me, Well, how do you evenget to know people from a
different culture? How do youeven know where to begin? And I
always say, like you said, Marcobecoming that cultural learner
making a lot of observations,understanding the background
spending time I think we thinkof, we think of relationships as
short term. And I always askpeople, you ask me for the long
(33:01):
term, because if you're gonnaenter into a relationship with
people who are different thanyou, you've got to think long
term, and slow down and be say,I'm gonna walk this journey for
as long as this person is in mylife, or in my job or in my
neighborhood. And spending timeand living life together, having
a meal together, go to eventstogether, birthdays, weddings,
(33:24):
is just showering on our onpeople, by spending that time
and entering into their world isthe biggest way you can build
start to build trust andunderstand what it means for
them to trust you. And also whenyou break trust, how people make
up conflict resolution iscompletely different in
different ways as well.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:46):
Yeah. Wow, that that is so important. Yeah.
So starting with what you saidat the beginning, Julie, this
idea that some people give trustupfront, and some people give
nothing upfront and you have toearn it all those two opposite
polarities almost. And if boththose opposites are in one in
(34:08):
one relationship between twopeople that that can be a huge
gap to close or bridge to build.
Practically, I know, Bart,you've done a lot of work on on
making trust building reallypractical. And we talk about
those four words. For instance,reliability, honesty, openness,
and respect. But how do wepractically build trust across
(34:31):
cultures? How does that work?
What do we need to do? Well,
Bart Heiligenberg (34:38):
I'm just gonna use the saying that you
used in your last podcast, trusttakes years to build seconds to
break and then eternity torebuild. And I think when we
look at trust, we need to lookat these three instance
instances and ask people like,hey, What activities build trust
(35:03):
with you? So if we look at trustas something that is behavior,
then it's just easier to asklike, Okay, what I still trusted
you? And what behaviors breakyour trust? And what can I do to
make up because like Julie said,making up is fully different in
different cultures. In Westerncultures, for instance, making
(35:27):
up typically means saying, Hey,I am sorry, I was wrong, I
apologize for you forgive me. Wewere talking with an Egyptian
guy and asked him like, hey, ifyour wife flew it, what does he
need to do to make it up, and hesays, all she needs to do is
take me to an expensiverestaurant on a busy night. And
(35:50):
that she needs to say I'm sorry,he said, not at all, just take
me to an expensive restaurant inpublic. And in his mind, it was
not about the apologies, it wasabout being publicly honored by
his wife. So one of the thingswe do is, we give people a
little quiz where we give themlike 15 behaviors that will
(36:11):
build trust 15 behaviors thatrelate to us 15 behaviors that
might rebuild trust, and askthem which three of each
category are most resonatingwith them, and start talking
about it with your spouse.
Because really, until you starttalking with the other person
about what builds trust withyou, and what works trusted you,
(36:32):
people will keep breaking trust,because they don't know how to
build trust with you.
Julie Heiligenberg (36:42):
Yeah, and also, recently, one of our
friends, they have a 16 year olddaughter that was struggling
with communicating back andforth with her. And when they
gave her this kind of trustquiz, it opened up so many doors
for them to keep building trustand know how to build trust with
her and her with her parents.
And it was really helpful. Sobehaviors are important too.
(37:03):
Just sometimes you can't thinkoff the top of your head, well,
I don't know what builds trustfor me or breaks trust for me.
But when you can think of somedifferent activities or
behaviors, it's a little easierto grasp.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:16):
Yeah, and I think that's really key. Because
very often, you don't know whatyou don't know, especially if
you grow up in a certainculture. And people start asking
you so what builds trusting inhow you grew up? Or what breaks
it? Very often, we don't knowthe words. And what whole is one
of the trailblazers in theintercultural world. And he
(37:38):
always used to say that cultureis very good at hiding its
intentions, especially to peoplewho are from that culture. So
getting some language to say,oh, yeah, that builds trust, or
no, that breaks trust in mysituation, getting the language
to get that conversation going.
Is is really important. I wouldlove to hear Bryson, Thelma from
(37:59):
your site. When you think aboutthe topic of trust. How have you
practically been able to open upthat conversation and maybe see
trust grow between you?
Bryce Dzirbik (38:12):
Yeah, I think there's four words that were
shared. honesty, openness,respect, and reliability does
resonate with me and give methinking about how someone I are
different in a way. So for mebuilding trust with, with my
wife, Thelma, honesty, andopenness are very important. You
(38:36):
know, being real inconversations, so that someone
can know me, that's really how Ican. One great way I can build
trust with my wife. And it'swhen that I'm when I'm not
sharing. And when I'm moreclosed, then it's a lot harder
for my wife to trust me. Whereasfor myself, respect and
(38:59):
reliability, often, I valuemore. So dumb. Being on time is
one way that she can build trustwith me. And so learning those
things that we can do to buildtrust with one another. That's
really helpful.
Thelma Dzirbik (39:20):
Yeah, I think that was something that we spent
learning when we're dating,because I realized that I
remember telling a friend, justa couple of months into us
dating and I was like, I don'teven feel like I know price. And
she was like, What do you mean?
And I just was like, I feel likehe doesn't share a lot with me.
And this is like a really closefriend of mine. And like, we've
been friends for years. And shesaid to me, do you feel like you
(39:42):
trust him? And I just felt likeI realized at that moment that
because Bryce wasn't really openwith me, um, just because of his
personality, or just howdifferent he was from me. I was
beginning to kind of like, youknow, not really it was Easy for
me to get my trust. And so Imean, after conversations, yeah,
(40:02):
following conversations fromthat, I just realized that,
yeah, openness, when someone'sreally open with me, it just
really helps me give my trust tothem. And, yeah, honesty, which
is something that Bryce haslearned about me, which I feel
like is really spot on ourrelationship. And even now in my
age, and then for him, I kind offeel like I need to switch in my
(40:24):
brain to know that, okay, I needto show him that he can rely, if
he tells me to do something, orif we agree that I'm gonna take
ownership on something, makingsure that I follow through, and
that it's just really importantfor him. And times where I've
seen that I've not public truemedia, and something I've said I
was gonna do, I just realizedthat it really affects them way
(40:44):
more than it would affect me.
And I remember the beginning, Ididn't understand it as like,
why is this such a big deal?
Just because it wasn't the samething for me, they will do by
trust, you know? So I thinkcoming out of myself and
realizing like, Oh, this is whatmatters to him, for him to
actually give me his trust? Willyou help us and has been helping
(41:05):
us to be honest.
Bryce Dzirbik (41:08):
Yeah. And related to that, understanding what
does, for example, honesty andopenness mean to the other
person, because me, I thought Iwas being honest. And I wasn't
hiding anything, you know. But Iwas having more shallow
conversations, and not going asdeep into my feelings or
(41:29):
emotions on a situation orsharing all my views. And so
learning what the other person'sperspective is on those things.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:41):
I think it comes back to what Julie
mentioned earlier, that it'sreally about being specific
about those behaviors, andlearning to be specific learning
to have conversations aboutthat. And it's fascinating, I
was reminded, as you werespeaking about, you know, this,
there's seven ways to build newhabits. And one of the one of
(42:01):
the ways to do that is toactually create a richer
language around the topic.
Because then you can starttalking more deeply and
meaningfully about the topic.
And as you build yourvocabulary, you start to also
articulate the why and whysomething works and why it
doesn't work. And that's what Ilove about the intercultural
(42:23):
work. But, you know, we'vetalked about the three colors of
worldview, we mentioned,actually, three or four of the,
the 12 dimensions of culture aswell. And having that language
becomes so helpful, as you startto build the the shared cultural
space in relationship. Now, ofcourse, we live in a world where
intercultural part of of lifehas become much bigger. And it's
(42:47):
not just exclusively for thelarge metropolitan areas of the
world. But people are seem to bedrifting everywhere. And what I
noticed recently, there was astudy about it as a global risk
study. And what fascinated mewas that in that study, they
asked people from around theworld, what are you most
(43:07):
concerned about when it comes toseason that we live in, and
people were seeing? One of thetop three was actually that
people were concerned about theerosion of the social fabric of
society. And I was justwondering, from the lessons that
you've learned, if people areconcerned about the erosion of
(43:30):
the social fabric, as inrelational bridges seem to be
crumbling. How would you adviseour listeners to to build those
bridges, across friends, lovedones, neighbors in the
neighborhood colleagues at thesports club? What would be
practical ways that people canbuild Cultural Bridges? How have
you done it? And how would youencourage our audience to do the
(43:53):
same thing,
Thelma Dzirbik (43:55):
for first thing that comes to my mind is really
remembering that everyone needsa friend, I realized that even
being at work with somefriendships that I've gotten to
enjoy that really started off byme just choosing to seat a
little bit closer to the personthan being off in the other
corner. It's free in thecountry. And I think that that
(44:18):
just maybe made the person feellike I was trying to invite
them, and really given a smileand saying, Hello, How's work
going? Exciting those the personlike little complimentary
comments, conversations. I findhelpful. And I think, even
though I mean, yes, I guessbecause we've come out of COVID
(44:41):
and people have been locked awayfor so long. I think there is a
sense that people have forgottensocial cues in the sentence, but
even still just remembering thatpeople would still like to
interact. Of course not invadingpeople's personal space, but
seeing kind of being on thelookout for who doesn't really
Mind setting up a conversation.
Bryce Dzirbik (45:03):
That's very practical. Yeah, and take it
really just taking the time toseek to get to know other
people. It takes time. And Ithink, especially with
intercultural relationships, andwith time too, the more personal
method you can use to get toknow someone, the better. So
(45:23):
like often, even communicatingwith someone from a different
culture over chat or WhatsAppcan be very challenging. Whereas
if you're able to do a videochat or meet in person, it's a
lot easier to communicate. Youcan see facial cues to use hand
language, they can see your lipsas you're speaking. You can do
(45:48):
things together, like share ameal that are bonding. So like
as you seek to spend time reallydoing that in person together is
really helpful.
Marco Blankenburgh (45:58):
That's great. That's great.
Julie Heiligenberg (46:01):
Yeah, my story. My brother once told me
it was really a beautiful story.
He he travels for work. He'straveled for years all over the
states, especially the nation.
And he said he started justasking people, what's your
story? What's your story?
Everywhere he went, he wouldsay, what's your story? And he
said, I learned so much frompeople, all ages, all stages of
(46:22):
life. But one travel one trip hehad he met a guy from Pakistan.
And he said, Well, I'm actuallyhere on asylum. And I'm waiting
and waiting three years, andtrying to support my family and
stay here. And it really grippedmy brother's heart. And he came
home one day, as I told him,it's this, this family from
(46:44):
Pakistan, what do I do? How do Iget to know them, I said, Well,
you know, they don't live inyour city, but every time you
fly through just to spend sometime with them. And so he
actually started making a pointto go, every time he would fly
through their city would stopand spend time and have a meal
with them. And eventually, itturned into he invited the whole
family to his house in SanDiego, to spend the weekend, and
(47:06):
just hang out and be together.
And he learned that he hadconnections and people who could
help their family. And so heused any connections that he had
to just honor this family andsay, Hey, I just want to help
out any way I can. And theybecame really good friends. And
it really was a life changingexperience for my brother. And a
(47:28):
beautiful way of just enteringinto a natural relationship,
you're doing your daily job,maybe he's flying around, and
just someone who just startssharing their story and connects
with your heart, and you connectwith them. And you stay in that
you don't just say, Okay, seeyou later, he didn't want to
just say See you later, hereally, really wanted to go
farther than that, and wasn'teven living in the same city.
(47:51):
And that was just, it was reallyeye opening to me how it does
take time it takes intention towhen you're going across filters
to learn to understand and andtouch their hearts, and how do
you honor them and care for themand vice versa?
Marco Blankenburgh (48:08):
And I think that's what you mentioned this
your brother's question reallygets at the heart of what people
are, are looking for. They wanttheir life, their life story,
who they are, who they havebecome and how they've become
who they are. They want that tobe recognized. They want a
chance to share that. So that'sa beautiful question. I love it.
Bart Heiligenberg (48:27):
Yeah, when it comes to social cohesion, what
stands out to me, and I stilluse that. Starting a go further
still do was actually a memethat affected my posts on
Facebook with a lot of researchbehind it. And the meme set, you
can only change somebody's mindover dinner. And what it means
(48:51):
is like, you know, nobody'sgoing to change their mind
because of your opinions. Theonly gonna change their mind
because they see the personbehind the opinions. And the
person behind your opinions iswords, changing your mind for so
I kind of radically stoppedtalking about politics on
Facebook, because we're justgonna chase them, right? Because
(49:13):
for the same Facebook, if I wantto change somebody's mind, I
just need to invest in them. Ineed to befriend them. I need to
have them over for dinner. Andthen of course, the dangerous
but I have to vote within andthey might actually change my
mind because I see what kind ofperson they are. Because that's
what we're missing is we stoppedseeing each other as people as
(49:34):
persons. And we started seeingsomebody as a caricature of the
ideology or their religion orthe political conviction, etc.
So we need to go back to seepeople as people.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:48):
That's a really profound part. I think
that's so important. Because ifwe don't then then we we can't
even be in the same space withpeople who think different from
us. than we think we have to,you know, go our separate ways,
which is actually making us poorhuman beings, I think, well, you
(50:11):
all on this call have had achance to, in some way or
another be enriched by being inan intercultural environment by
stepping into an intimaterelationship with somebody from
a very different culturalbackground. So I'm just curious
as we wrap up, what what waswhat would you consider the
(50:34):
enriching part of beingintercultural being in a
relationship with somebody who'sculturally different? How has it
enriched you? I think,
Bart Heiligenberg (50:47):
Julie has invested me in so many ways, and
it's part is her culture bythis, her personality part is
just who she is. For me, whatstands out is, actually my
personality resonates very muchwith her culture. I'm a fairly
indirect personality, and I'msomebody who needs a lot of
(51:09):
affirmation to thrive with inthat culture is not happening a
lot. American culture is alsofairly direct, but also very
affirming. So it's actuallyquite natural for my wife to be
affirming me, because that'spart of the culture. And that
really enriches me. Now, ofcourse, I'm still learning to
(51:31):
afford my wife all the time aswell, because she needs to just
as much but I grew up in thatculture. Yeah,
Julie Heiligenberg (51:41):
yeah, I think it's humbling you realize
that your ways and the way youwere with the way you grew up
the way you see things, man,everybody seems that way. And I
think the more relationships youget into, with different people,
even marrying cross culturally,you just learn to step back and
(52:03):
not be so quick to respond withopinions or this is the way you
do things. And you learn to askmore questions. So tell me why
you say that. You know, wheredoes that come from? And it's,
it's made me a better person.
It's made me more compassionate.
It's made me more loving, andopen learning languages,
(52:25):
understanding people, is stoparound wherever you're going or
walking or traveling. And younotice people you notice real
people from all around. And Idon't think I did that growing
up so much, not even in my owntown. And wherever I go, just
just looking for ways to lovepeople to honor them to help to
(52:48):
serve to care to say, Hey,what's your story to take the
time? And of course, Bart justcompletely enriches me just who
he is his love and his heart forpeople. Everywhere we go, even
our kids like, Where's papa?
He's talking with someone.
Where's Papa he's talking withis just we he's a little bit
behind us because he saw someoneand he just takes the time to
(53:09):
stop. And I've learned a lotfrom him in that, that just to
observe around what's going onand just be in my own little
world. And as really made mewant to pass that on to our kids
and to other people around me.
Marco Blankenburg (53:24):
inspirations.
Bryce Salma.
Thelma Dzirbik (53:28):
Think for me something that I mean? Yeah,
Vice definitely inspires me inso many ways, just because of
how different we are even inpersonality. But he's definitely
just enriched me to look at thewall from a different point of
view. I, for Bryce, he would bethe one that will be more slow
(53:48):
to speak, then I would be, and Ithink just does my personality.
By I think honestly, seeing theway he would take more time to
listen to someone and see wherethey're coming from. And then
when he speaks, they kind offeel like he can relate to them
has just really enriched me tothink of being the same. And so
(54:12):
I think that's something thathas, yeah, I've said practice a
lot more. And I think just seenalso with Bryce's family, I
mean, I got the chance to visithis family earlier this year.
And just seeing how much theywould spend time with each
other. And not just spend timewatching TV together, but
actually asking each other howto do it. So in my like, where
(54:34):
I'm from, you spend time doingthings together. And really at
the end of the day, you spendhours together, but you don't
really know how someone's doingbecause you're not really accent
intentional questions. And so Ishow up to Bryce's family and
it's completely opposite. Hismom's asking me how I'm doing
and she's asked me how it worksgoing. And she's following up on
something I mentioned a longtime ago. And I'm like, Whoa,
(54:56):
interesting. How do you rememberthat? But I think just that
culture has really, uh, thatreally stood out to me. And it
just really is that well, Iactually do that more like
people have things that theywant to share things that you're
thinking about. And if I canfollow up or ask questions that
they can share, and they can geta listening ear, or even a
(55:17):
shoulder to lean on. So I thinkthat's something that has been
enriching for me,
Marco Blankenburgh (55:22):
wonderful.
Bryce Dzirbik (55:23):
Rice. For me, I think, thinking back on her
different views and time, somereally helped me learn what does
it look like to love otherpeople and to prioritize people
over plans or time, like,there's a time share to show up
(55:46):
on time. But there's also a timeto be flexible, to actually get
to care for people. And for menot to be so stuck in my plans
for the day that I miss out onopportunities to care for other
people, or to make time to carefor other people. And so I
think, seeing how my wife makesthe time to really get to know
(56:11):
and care for many other peoplebe flexible to do that. It's an
encouragement to me. That's
Marco Blankenburgh (56:19):
fantastic.
And as you as you're sharing howintercultural relationships have
been rich, too, I'm reminded ofsomething that has also come out
of COVID. And we see that inteams, in organizations that the
topic of creating relationalstrength or relational capital
is all of a sudden, hot again,and teams say we need to get
(56:41):
stronger in relationship on thisteam, because that carries us
through and it lifts us up. Andas you are sharing how you've
enriched each other, I'm justreminded of that, and how, yes,
it's true in in with loved ones,but it's also as true in
relationships with ourcolleagues at work. Well, thank
you so much for thisconversation. I'm sure we could
(57:05):
easily keep this going for muchlonger, Chuck the time equation
out of the window and just focuson relationships. But if, if
you've been listening to thispodcast today, and and you want
to keep that conversation goingthen in the notes, you'll find
ways to connect with the peopleon this podcast. But also I want
(57:26):
to mention something that'sreally dear to my heart. Bart
and Julie have now for a numberof years been running thriving
intercultural marriage workshopssince COVID. Coffee, of course,
virtually. And if you areintrigued by applying deep
intercultural understanding toyour relationship, then yeah,
(57:47):
highly recommend that you reachout to Barton, Juliet, they have
such a wealth of knowledge andwisdom. And they've taken scores
of couples through a verypowerful program. So highly
recommend that thank you, Bart.
And Julie. Thank you, Bryce.
And, Thelma, for joining ustoday. Really appreciate this.
And thank you for, for makingthe time to be on this podcast.
Bart Heiligenberg (58:13):
Yes, I pleasure. Thank you for inviting
us.
Bryce Dzirbik (58:15):
Pleasure.
Thelma Dzirbik (58:16):
Our pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thanks,Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (58:22):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app or channelfor us forward and recommend
this podcast people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(58:44):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes. If youwould like to learn more about
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
culturally agile, you can findmore information and hundreds of
articles at knowledge works.comA special thanks to Jason Carter
(59:05):
for composing the music on thispodcast and to the whole
knowledge works team for makingthis podcast a success. Thank
you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as thisbackyard, gee Suraj and thanks
to VIP and George for audioproduction, Rosalind Raj for
scheduling, and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
(59:26):
produce this podcast
You can only change somebody's mind over
dinner. And what it means islike, you know, nobody's going
to change their mind because ofyour opinions, they're only
going to change their mindbecause they see the person
behind the opinions. If I wantto change somebody's mind, I
just need to invest in them, Ineed to befriend them, I need to
(00:20):
have them over for dinner. Andthen of course, the dangerous
but I have to vote within andthey might actually change my
life because I see what kind ofperson they are. Because that's
what we're missing is we stoppedseeing each other as people as
persons. And we started seeingsomebody as a caricature of the
ideology or their religion orthe political conviction, etc.
(00:43):
So we need to go back to seepeople as people.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:57):
Welcome to the cultural agility podcast,
where we explore the stories ofsome of the most advanced
intercultural practitioners fromaround the world, to help you
become culturally agile, andsucceed in today's culturally
complex world. I'm your host,Marco Blankenburg, international
director of knowledge works,where every day we help
(01:18):
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
Welcome, everybody, to this nextepisode of our cultural agility
podcast. And I'm very excitedabout today's recording, because
we have two inter culturalcouples in our virtual studio.
(01:38):
And I'm really excited aboutthis conversation. So what Julie
Bryce and, Thelma, thank you forjoining us today. And I'm very
much looking forward to hearyour stories. And how the
intercultural side of it orrelationships have impacted your
lives in a variety of ways. So,maybe Bryce and Salma if you
(02:01):
could start with a briefintroduction, and Barton. Julie,
have you follow suit, and thenwe'll go straight into the
conversation.
Bryce Dzirbik (02:10):
Thanks, Marco. My name is Bryce, and I'm here with
my wife.
Thelma Dzirbik (02:15):
Salma tele. Now, I'm from Nigeria.
Bryce Dzirbik (02:19):
And I'm from the US.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:22):
Wonderful, so good to have you. Thank you.
Julie Heiligenberg (02:27):
I'm Julie.
And I'm from the States. Andcurrently, we're overseas. And
this is where Bart and I metmany years ago. And I'm staying
home with our two teenagers are12 and 14. So it's good to be
here.
Bart Heiligenberg (02:41):
So I'm Bart.
I'm from the Netherlands. Thepart that's called Holland
actually. And I met my wife,Julie, in the United Arab
Emirates in a city called align.
Marco Blankenburgh (02:52):
Awesome.
Thank you so much. So Barton,Julie, you already started to
get into a little bit of yourstory. But maybe, for our
audience, maybe you want to adda few things in terms of how you
met how you got to know eachother?
Bart Heiligenberg (03:06):
Yeah, we actually met in the Emirates,
in, in church, actually. And Ikind of stood out because I was
the only single guy that I metat church. And I just remember
Julie saying, after reading.
Yeah, she really liked me,though, I had a few weird things
(03:26):
around me. And she still likedme. So that was good. And then
as we got married, actually hadhalf my family coming over to
the states, and spent a weekwith us before the wedding and
helping and changed. It waslike, oh, not by test a few
weird things throughout themidst of Emily does. And then we
were lucky a year later to spendsix months in the Netherlands.
(03:50):
And she came to the conclusionthat it's the whole country that
is weird. And that's culture.
Julie Heiligenberg (03:58):
Yes, I remember, in our early days of
getting to know each other, andeven the first year of marriage,
how direct wire it was, and someof his friends or family
members. And it was sometimes itwas really hard to me. Because
you know, I come from a culturethat I guess it's just very
affirming. and think, oh, youcan't talk can't talk to people
(04:20):
like that. And I was the onlyone that had a problem with
everybody else was fine. Andthey were laughing and I just
learned that those are justdifferences in humor is
sometimes doesn't cross culturesand translate very well. And it
was just different. I had tolearn their way of talking and
different directness and humoreven and I just grew into that
and really learn to embrace andlove who Bart is and understand
(04:42):
who he is. Yeah, it was thoseearly days. So differences.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:46):
Fantastic.
So Bryson, Salma, how did youguys meet?
Bryce Dzirbik (04:51):
Well, I moved to Dubai in 2018 for work, and I
met my Oh, now what is it in?
Churches? Well,
Thelma Dzirbik (05:05):
yeah, I was here. I moved here for
university sent me to Dubai foruniversity, around four years
before Bryce moved here. And Iwas going into this church
called covenant hope. And Iactually heard advice before he
showed up because he had emailedthe church asked me if he could
bring some instruments becausehe plays a lot of musical
instruments, which has beengreat. But yeah, so that's,
(05:27):
that's how I got to hear aboutprice. I actually heard about
him that this American guy wasgoing to come and he is willing
to help us with our music, whichis exciting. And so he showed
up. And of course, he reallystood out. Because I mean, I
tried to be diverse, but youknow, when a new person steps
in, because he just prettydifferent. Yeah, so that was how
we met.
Marco Blankenburgh (05:48):
Fantastic, fantastic. Now, you already
started to learn what to whatattracted you to each other? And
I'm curious to hear a little bitmore about that. So maybe
someone will just keep talking.
Yeah. So
Thelma Dzirbik (06:03):
let me see, the first thing I learned about
Bryce was just how much he lovedto interact with people, like
his love for people. I rememberthe first time I actually
spotted him, he was talking to afriend of mine, right across the
room. And I had this, you know,I wanted to tell my friend about
my week. So I just stood in linekinda behind him awkwardly at
(06:24):
the side, just kind of waitingfor him to finish whatever he
was talking to her about. And Ijust was like, Oh, this guy,
like just really both talking topeople. So I was the first thing
that attracted me to him. And Iguess that's kind of a little
bit also like a culturaldefense, because I just feel
like, it's kind of very, like hewould approach someone first,
which I think in my culture,sometimes we kind of wait for
(06:46):
people to approach us first. SoI kind of feel like that was
like a, it was something theychatted into him for stuff.
Marco Blankenburgh (06:54):
So Bryce, I was it on your side of the fence
Bryce Dzirbik (06:56):
for me, someone definitely stood out. And she
was much more outgoing than me.
And so I was definitelyattracted to her excitement and
joy about life. So and herexcitement and joy, I'm cheering
others on, both in their faithand in different life events. I
(07:20):
remember, once she asked for aride, to see if someone to drop
her off to cheer a friend whowas skydiving. So she made a
sign. And then she was going tocheer on her friend as she
landed, and just observinginstances of like, that, of her
(07:40):
excitement and going to cheer uson was very attractive.
Marco Blankenburgh (07:49):
Wonderful.
Well, I didn't, Julie, youalready started to talk about
the uniqueness of, of Dutchversus American culture. But you
already alluded to what drew youto each other. So anything you
want to add to that, from thoseearly moments?
Julie Heiligenberg (08:06):
Yeah, I remember, Bart, I was single
living overseas, learning,teaching English as a second
language, just kind of going onwith my life. And as we would
come to church, or differentmutual friends houses, who would
always be where everywhere, it'slike, he would just show up, it
just kept coming into my life.
And a paid attention. I paidattention to his heart, his the
(08:27):
way he would walk around andtalk to people, everybody. And
he was learning the locallanguage. And we were kind of
working together sometimes. Andit's just more and more my heart
was open to this guy who waswholly different than me,
different culture, differentlanguage, different personality,
different gifting, and an acuteaccent. So all of that just
(08:50):
attracted me. And we grew. Imean, we really, really had to
think through like, Well, I wasenjoying my life, you know, I
was living where I wanted to be.
And it was really cool to meetsomeone who had some similar
values and really wanted to livelife together in a common way.
(09:12):
So it was really cool.
Marco Blankenburgh (09:15):
So Bart, from from California to North
Holland, very different worlds.
What attracted you in in jewelryfrom those early days?
Bart Heiligenberg (09:24):
Wow, now I have to go back in memory for 20
plus years. I think whatattracted me and Julie, I
remember my roommate and I, wehad a lot of fun. We had a lot
of parties, actually. And lotsof singles parties, thanks to an
Arab friend who really loveshosting those parties. And what
(09:47):
attracted me to God was that sheshe had a passion in her life,
passion to do certain things,and she was willing to give up
comfortable life To pursuepassions, and that really stood
out to me, somebody who wantedto follow him nations, and young
(10:08):
as our passions and the joiningup, which is to suit passion
together.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:14):
That's powerful. In the midst of that,
of course, you are bothintercultural couples from very
different worlds. So, what weresome of those early moments,
right and found out when youstarted to discover those
cultural differences?
Thelma Dzirbik (10:32):
I would say, I think one of my earliest
memories of thinking, Oh, mygoodness, price is so different,
was when he would say, Hey, I'mcoming to pick you up at 2pm.
And he would show up at my door,you know, like five minutes
before 2pm. And I'm like, Oh, mygoodness, you're so early, that
I thought you were gonna belike, 215, or to 30. Just, you
(10:58):
know, with my culture, it's alot about like, not only like
being late to things where wejust take our time to do things.
And so that was very differentfor me. And I think even with
that, I realized that wereprices, culture is a lot is like
a lot of like time oriented.
Meanwhile, for my culture is alot more like relationship
(11:19):
oriented. So say, if price hadscheduled, we were gonna have a
date from two to 4pm. Here'skind of already, you know,
thinking about like, oh, it'sclose to 4pm, we're gonna round
up and I'm like, oh, man, jointhis conversation. Let's keep
going. And we can keep going,you know, cuz it's, you know,
this is a nice conversation. Ithink that was one of my first.
(11:41):
Yeah, it was one of my firstthings that I noticed was really
different with our coaches.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:48):
Yeah, that's, that's great. Our
concepts of time are radicallydifferent from around the world.
And so a great example of that.
Now, Julie, you alreadymentioned, how, if I can say the
word honesty is handled verydifferently in web art comes
from and his family, you onlyalluded to it, but maybe tell us
a little bit more about that.
(12:10):
And how did you discover thoseearly cultural difference
between you and bards culturaljourney?
Julie Heiligenberg (12:18):
Yes, I guess at one point, our second year of
marriage, we spent six months inHolland with his family and
around his family, we had ourown place. But we spent a lot of
time at his house, where he grewup, and he's one of seven kids.
So you know, it's a big family.
And I had a lot of culture tolearn so but I think my being in
(12:39):
the Middle East, I expected alot of culture shock me in in
Holland, I, I didn't really Ithought, Oh, we were kind of
Westerners were very similar.
But living there and living lifethere. I remember being
surprised by the hospitality ofhis family. And I, we don't in
(13:02):
California, I don't think weeven know how to do hospitality.
One or two hours, and thenyou're out the door, you
wouldn't really spend time awhole long, long time all day
with people. But with Bart andhis friends and family, we'd
spent four or five hours, all inDutch, all coolest for me.
Sometimes people would translateeveryone smile. And just the
(13:23):
time they took to be withpeople. Yeah, you still schedule
that time. But when you're withpeople, you spend the time and
that was a pleasant surprise,just hospitality and all kinds
of coffee times that I didn'trealize were really important in
the mornings and the afternoonsin the evenings. And even one
(13:43):
time I was upstairs, it waseight o'clock at night. And I
was supposed to come down forcoffee time. And I remember
telling about I'm not thirsty.
You just gave me the look likeI'm, it's come down and I was
like, Okay, this is reallyimportant to him and to his
family. And I came down, satwith my mother in line, even if
I didn't drink coffee, because Ithought I'm not gonna sleep. She
just said, Well, what else wouldyou like to drink and just the
(14:06):
fact that I was there andspending that time was
important. And I think I learneda lot about the value of family
and time, just don't in thosesix months that I hadn't seen in
our first couple years ofmarriage overseas, because we
were in a neutral place, not inmy culture or his culture. We
were we were in the Emirates.
And that was a really big eyeopener for me.
Marco Blankenburgh (14:29):
That's beautiful. And maybe also
something you know, that is itshows the difference across
Dutch society. Some people mightbe like the highly convex, very
hospitable very peoplerelationship oriented and others
might not. Rise. Thelma alludedto the different view on time.
(14:50):
What was it for you that thatreally helped you understand?
Wow, we are very differentculturally.
Bryce Dzirbik (14:58):
Yeah, the difference Some time was
definitely something I noticedas well. Another thing else
would be noticed, is not justdifferences in our cultures of
where we grew up, but alsodifferences in family culture.
So even if I grew up in the US,you know, each family in the US
in the sense has their ownculture. And same in Nigeria.
(15:21):
So, for example, incommunication, generally
speaking, people in the US wouldbe known to be more direct, and
people in Eastern cultures to bemore indirect. But we found in
our case that me growing up inMidwest where people are quote,
Midwest, nice. I was more theindirect one. And Thumma was her
(15:44):
family was more direct. So forme, I had more experience like
you, Julie, where I was like,wow. So there's been several
would say things that wouldsound very harsh to me. But the
more I got to know them, Ilearned to appreciate her
directness, because I knew shewas sharing those things.
Because she loved me, and caredfor me. And so yeah, as you get
(16:09):
to know, culture, it's, it'shelpful to seek to know, the
specific culture person grew upand not just in addition to the
general culture of theircountry.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:20):
Yeah, and you bring up something that's
really important, and somethingthat we're passionate about it
knowledge works, as well as thiswhole idea that if you say, you
know, the average American, theaverage Nigerian, the average
Dutch, and you use that as yourbaseline, then very likely,
you're going to discover a wholebunch of other things that might
be radically opposite, like theexample you just gave Bryce. So
(16:42):
this whole idea that we all areon our own cultural journey, and
especially when you then startan intimate relationship,
discovering what that journey isthen becomes super important. So
but, Julie, you've lived a longtime in California. And, Julie,
you alluded to that first timewhen you started to live in
(17:03):
barbed sculpture. But what wasit like for you to actually
started living in the US? Whatdid you discover about Julie
maybe about her family, that younever realized when you were
living in the third culture inthe Arabian Gulf?
Bart Heiligenberg (17:19):
Well, I was lucky that I did go to the US a
couple of times before weactually spent the six months
there. And we actually had a lotof American friends living here
more than we had that trends. Sofor me, it was like a gradual
easing in. I think one of thethings that stood out for me in
(17:41):
Southern California is it's avery driven culture. And I was
not used to that. TheNetherlands, but especially here
after two or three years in theMiddle East, it's a lot more
relaxed. Can Julie's family isvery close knit, similar to
(18:05):
mine, but still in a differentway. We are very quiet people,
my family. You won't really hearthe words I love you that much.
It's an indirect ways where herfamily is very frugal, very
frugal with affirmation withaffection. And those were the
(18:28):
differences that stood out. And,of course, the whole famous
Americans are very famous forsaying sorry. I know in the
beginning of my Marriotts, Julieand I went, we get away with a
couple of other American friendsand like a day and a half. And I
asked her like, what's wrongwith me? This guy keeps saying
(18:51):
story to me like 50 times anhour. And I mean, being nice. I
mean, we only say sorry, if youliterally knock somebody over or
you, you punch him in the face.
But I had to learn in America,they some beat, somebody might
say certainly if they come lessthan six feet, the less than six
feet away from you because theyfeel the invading personal space
(19:12):
or something like that. So I hadto get used to those things.
Wow.
Marco Blankenburgh (19:20):
There's so much more to say about that.
Thank you for that. But the wordsorry. Yes. I've heard that
many, many times. So we'vetalked a little bit we've we've
had on this idea of time,concepts of time concepts of
directness versus indirectness.
In terms of our communication,ideas of honesty. One of the
(19:41):
tools that we love to use inknowledge works is three colors
of worldview. Talking aboutdoing the right thing, avoid
doing the wrong thing, pursuinghonor, avoiding shame, or
looking at hierarchy as Inposition in relationships, and
navigating, who's in whatposition in an appropriate way?
(20:05):
Maybe Bart and Julie are, how dothose things influence the way
you you grow in a relationship?
Have you seen differences there?
As you got to know each otherbetter?
Bart Heiligenberg (20:21):
I think for Julie and myself, when you look
at the three colors ofworldview, I think Julie and I
are very similar in thatinnocence. Guilt is right and
wrong is very strong for us. Andthe others are not as important.
But I think what I've seen isthat it's still important for me
(20:46):
as a husband, to not just doright by my wife, but also to
watch out for her honor and toempower her. So Do not just look
at that strongest willedscrewdriver. But all the other
ones are just as important tothrive in a relationship.
Julie Heiligenberg (21:03):
Yeah, I think for us, I'm, I'm a
stronger personality. So eventhough I have a similar
worldview, I could easilydishonor Bart in a way that
would really make him eitherangry or be feel shame. And I
had to learn early on to be verycareful how I speak. And the way
(21:25):
I say things to not crush hisspirit is just you know, really
strong women can just bowledover some guys. And I think
learning Bart had such a gentle,quiet spirit, even though he was
definitely strong. And he's hespeaks his mind. It was a
personality difference more thancultural maybe. And I'm, I
(21:48):
remember learning Well, this isa way to honor him and value who
he is, is to be careful andlearn how to speak in a way that
shows love, even though I canexpress myself, especially in in
a way that's not going tooverpower or diminish who he is.
And I, I really had to learnthat in our marriage, especially
(22:08):
I learned it in friendshipsalong in my life. But in a
marriage, it can be so crushingand so destructive, when you
don't speak, life andencouragement and he said
empowerment. And you actuallycan tear someone down.
Marco Blankenburgh (22:25):
And I think that's such an important
insight. Because, you know,we're, we're talking about the
subject of, you know,intercultural relationships
today, but at the same time,what you're raising Julie's so
important that we're bothcultural human beings, but we're
also human beings with apersonality and a behavioral
style. And both are incrediblyimportant to become aware of,
(22:48):
first of all, your own, ofcourse, and then the cultural
wiring and the behavioral styleof the other person, Thelma,
rice, anything to add to that,yeah, we're
Thelma Dzirbik (23:01):
just trying to remember, just, I mean, the
first time we heard of those,like categories of the
worldview, and surprisingly, I'mmore like, in my culture, in
terms of a general sense, willbe more like on a shame. A
little bit of power here, too,because I'm from the northern
(23:23):
part of Nigeria. But I thinkjust because I've like, grown up
outside of the country, in asense that I came here, when I
was a teenager, I came to Dubaiwhen I was a teenager. And it
was really surrounded by like,Americans and like, Asian
people, and like people from theUK, so just really kind of
(23:44):
absorb different cultures aroundme. And I kind of be more
towards right and wrong, in asense. So I think that has
actually made rice and I getalong somewhat, because I can
see where he's coming from.
Sometimes when he's when he'smore strong on like, Oh, should
do this, because it's right.
(24:05):
Even though he would stand forthat a lot more than I would, I
would still walk in the room andthink about who is the most
senior person in the room. Ithink that just like is at the
back of my mind every time and Isee it a lot at work. So
something that we've alsorealized is so I work with a
local company here and Bryce onthe other hand works with an
American company. And I workcultures are just so different,
(24:29):
because I have more you know,more Asians in my my company. So
there's a lot of like, powerfear around in the sense that
people are very aware and wouldalways listen to whoever's in
authority and would, you know,talk a certain way to someone
there's an authority versussomeone that they see as the
peer or below them. versus,versus with Bryce. It's kind of
(24:50):
refreshing for his for theculture in this company is more
kind of like a flat culture. Sojust even realizing that I think
I've been at work already.
realize that that's somethingI've had to be aware of like
that everyone around me things.
Not really everyone, but mostpeople around me think in a lot
like, oh, this person is anauthority. So we should do what
(25:12):
they say you should do more soeven a little bit without
questioning it a lot, just dueto my personality. And my one
question, even though Irecognize the majority. And so
that's just kind of ways thatthat's played out, you know, my
relationship with other peopleat work, and also in our
relationship with each other.
Bryce Dzirbik (25:29):
And as we talk about work with each other,
yeah, it's helpful for me toremember that her work is a
different culture. Yeah. And totry to keep that in mind.
Thelma Dzirbik (25:42):
Yeah. So an advice of my work for vices
workplace within work for mine.
So just keeping that at the backof our minds, as we like, talk
with each other, or even thinkthrough something that's
happening, you know, in eachother's relationships with other
people.
Marco Blankenburgh (25:57):
Yeah. So So these three colors are well
viewed as they're not just youknow, with, with loved ones
were, you know, friends, butthey also are at play in work
cultures. And you, you gave justbeautiful illustrations of that.
So on the one hand, we'retalking, you know, as
intercultural couples, but atthe same time, I'm just curious,
(26:17):
the lessons you've learned ascouples, how can people
potentially apply those in anyintercultural relationship, so
we can think of the challengesthat you have seen and the
things you had to navigate aswell as the beautiful things?
What should people be aware of,in pretty much any intercultural
(26:38):
relationship? What would beyour, your, let's say, your top
two or three things that youwould like to communicate to our
listeners?
Bart Heiligenberg (26:46):
It's funny because I started the business
part. So like, hey, this appliesto our intimate relationships as
well. And now we go the otherway around, we started intimate
relationships, and how can weapply it to, for instance,
business? I think the things Ilearned is, it is important to
assume positive intent by theother, especially when you're
(27:09):
culturally different. Acolleague, or a friend is not
out there to tear you down.
Sometimes they really thinkdifferent. And you just have to
ask, like, Hey, what is goingon? Why are you saying this? But
you cannot always do that in themoment. Because a lot of
cultures context is everything.
(27:32):
And in the Netherlands, I canstop somebody in their tracks in
front of a lot of colleagues,and that is fine. In most
countries of the world, you haveto do it after what in a private
setting. I said, Okay, what yousaid, it came across like it was
just what you meant. Yeah,
Thelma Dzirbik (27:51):
I was actually going to mention that, I think
assumptions, not to makeassumptions of what people are
intending to say or intended tomean. And just kind of assuming
the best of people, and alwaysasking questions, just like you
said, but I think that'ssomething I've realized,
honestly, even working withpeople from different cultures,
(28:11):
because I've been working atAkamai at this company for
around five years. And it'sgetting more diverse by the
second and it's a really bigcompany, but just even how its
integrated into the culture ofthe company is to realize that,
okay, people from differentplaces and have would act and
think differently. But how muchit's so empowering to know that
(28:32):
just because you think in thisway, and someone else is seeing
it from a different point ofview, but doesn't necessarily
mean that that point of view iswrong and uses right. So kind of
coming to people with the humbleattitude of wanting to learn and
see where they're seeing thingsfrom, as one thing that I've
realized,
Bryce Dzirbik (28:52):
and some of the things in our relationship with
each other where at first, whenone of us does something, it's
easy, might be easy to get upsetabout it. Because we're assuming
they mean something, or I'massuming that somebody means
something by the action that shedoesn't actually mean. And so it
takes effort and remindingmyself to actually dig deeper,
(29:17):
to ask questions, to listen totry to understand the why
behind. Yeah, specific action, I
Thelma Dzirbik (29:24):
guess even I mean, thinking of an example,
even with the time thing, I gotto realize the price really felt
like if I wasn't keeping to thetime, they had said to me that I
wasn't caring for him, or I justdidn't care about his time.
Meanwhile, in my mind, I justnever thought about it that way.
Like I just never thought, oh, Idon't care about your time
though. I'd never say that. Inever said that. But I was kind
(29:46):
of communicating that with myaction. And Bryce was kind of
absorbed in that and thinking ofmy action in that way. Until we
had like multiple conversationsabout it where, you know, he
came to realize that I justwasn't like intending to Don't
disrespect him by not coming ontime to something. And multiple
other examples like that, wherewe just find that it's easier
(30:09):
when we asked and just kind ofsee what the other person was
thinking.
Marco Blankenburgh (30:14):
It sounds like, it really sounds like
slowing things down and notdrawing conclusions too quickly.
That seems to be a theme fromfrom what you've been sharing,
but also learning to ask goodquestions. So we always talk
about, you know, being acultural learner and being a
cultural learner, the why Brycethat you were alluding to
(30:35):
understanding the wild. And youcan only do that by slowing
things down and asking questionsand listening. And it's so
incredibly important. One thingthat keeps on coming back, no
matter what type ofintercultural relationship we
talk about, is the topic oftrust. And it's so big right now
especially, we're seem to be onthe tail end, sort of the COVID
(31:00):
pandemic. So many people havealluded to either how trust has
eroded because people were notin the same space, or when it
came to the family space, peoplehave indicated that trust has
grown because they were, quote,unquote, forced to spend time
together. But trust is always abig topic, especially in the
intercultural space. So how doeshow does your cultural
(31:24):
worldview? How does thatinfluence the way you see trust
in your relationship? Is thereactually a difference? Do we
feel trust in different ways?
Julie Heiligenberg (31:34):
I think trust means different things to
different people. And whetherit's in your marriage, or
relationships at work in theneighborhood, especially if
there's people from a differentculture, a different worldview,
it's really important tounderstand what builds trust
with them. And how do I how do Icome across in the West, you
(31:56):
know, we tend to just givetrust, give people the benefit
of the doubt, because we don'twant to judge people at first,
get to know them, and then we'llsee. And before we make any
conclusions, we like to justspend that time but in other
cultures, especially from honor,same worldview, trust is given
kind of within the family withinthe tribe and no small circle,
(32:17):
but outsiders have to earn thattrust. And then if you enter
into a family and extendedfamily, because when you marry,
you marry the family, you maynot be the highest trust level
with everyone, because you'vecome into a whole history,
culture, a tribe, and it has tobe earned. And that's really
(32:38):
hard, especially if you're aspouse. And I've also had people
ask me, Well, how do you evenget to know people from a
different culture? How do youeven know where to begin? And I
always say, like you said, Marcobecoming that cultural learner
making a lot of observations,understanding the background
spending time I think we thinkof, we think of relationships as
short term. And I always askpeople, you ask me for the long
(33:01):
term, because if you're gonnaenter into a relationship with
people who are different thanyou, you've got to think long
term, and slow down and be say,I'm gonna walk this journey for
as long as this person is in mylife, or in my job or in my
neighborhood. And spending timeand living life together, having
a meal together, go to eventstogether, birthdays, weddings,
(33:24):
is just showering on our onpeople, by spending that time
and entering into their world isthe biggest way you can build
start to build trust andunderstand what it means for
them to trust you. And also whenyou break trust, how people make
up conflict resolution iscompletely different in
different ways as well.
Marco Blankenburgh (33:46):
Yeah. Wow, that that is so important. Yeah.
So starting with what you saidat the beginning, Julie, this
idea that some people give trustupfront, and some people give
nothing upfront and you have toearn it all those two opposite
polarities almost. And if boththose opposites are in one in
(34:08):
one relationship between twopeople that that can be a huge
gap to close or bridge to build.
Practically, I know, Bart,you've done a lot of work on on
making trust building reallypractical. And we talk about
those four words. For instance,reliability, honesty, openness,
and respect. But how do wepractically build trust across
(34:31):
cultures? How does that work?
What do we need to do? Well,
Bart Heiligenberg (34:38):
I'm just gonna use the saying that you
used in your last podcast, trusttakes years to build seconds to
break and then eternity torebuild. And I think when we
look at trust, we need to lookat these three instance
instances and ask people like,hey, What activities build trust
(35:03):
with you? So if we look at trustas something that is behavior,
then it's just easier to asklike, Okay, what I still trusted
you? And what behaviors breakyour trust? And what can I do to
make up because like Julie said,making up is fully different in
different cultures. In Westerncultures, for instance, making
(35:27):
up typically means saying, Hey,I am sorry, I was wrong, I
apologize for you forgive me. Wewere talking with an Egyptian
guy and asked him like, hey, ifyour wife flew it, what does he
need to do to make it up, and hesays, all she needs to do is
take me to an expensiverestaurant on a busy night. And
(35:50):
that she needs to say I'm sorry,he said, not at all, just take
me to an expensive restaurant inpublic. And in his mind, it was
not about the apologies, it wasabout being publicly honored by
his wife. So one of the thingswe do is, we give people a
little quiz where we give themlike 15 behaviors that will
(36:11):
build trust 15 behaviors thatrelate to us 15 behaviors that
might rebuild trust, and askthem which three of each
category are most resonatingwith them, and start talking
about it with your spouse.
Because really, until you starttalking with the other person
about what builds trust withyou, and what works trusted you,
(36:32):
people will keep breaking trust,because they don't know how to
build trust with you.
Julie Heiligenberg (36:42):
Yeah, and also, recently, one of our
friends, they have a 16 year olddaughter that was struggling
with communicating back andforth with her. And when they
gave her this kind of trustquiz, it opened up so many doors
for them to keep building trustand know how to build trust with
her and her with her parents.
And it was really helpful. Sobehaviors are important too.
(37:03):
Just sometimes you can't thinkoff the top of your head, well,
I don't know what builds trustfor me or breaks trust for me.
But when you can think of somedifferent activities or
behaviors, it's a little easierto grasp.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:16):
Yeah, and I think that's really key. Because
very often, you don't know whatyou don't know, especially if
you grow up in a certainculture. And people start asking
you so what builds trusting inhow you grew up? Or what breaks
it? Very often, we don't knowthe words. And what whole is one
of the trailblazers in theintercultural world. And he
(37:38):
always used to say that cultureis very good at hiding its
intentions, especially to peoplewho are from that culture. So
getting some language to say,oh, yeah, that builds trust, or
no, that breaks trust in mysituation, getting the language
to get that conversation going.
Is is really important. I wouldlove to hear Bryson, Thelma from
(37:59):
your site. When you think aboutthe topic of trust. How have you
practically been able to open upthat conversation and maybe see
trust grow between you?
Bryce Dzirbik (38:12):
Yeah, I think there's four words that were
shared. honesty, openness,respect, and reliability does
resonate with me and give methinking about how someone I are
different in a way. So for mebuilding trust with, with my
wife, Thelma, honesty, andopenness are very important. You
(38:36):
know, being real inconversations, so that someone
can know me, that's really how Ican. One great way I can build
trust with my wife. And it'swhen that I'm when I'm not
sharing. And when I'm moreclosed, then it's a lot harder
for my wife to trust me. Whereasfor myself, respect and
(38:59):
reliability, often, I valuemore. So dumb. Being on time is
one way that she can build trustwith me. And so learning those
things that we can do to buildtrust with one another. That's
really helpful.
Thelma Dzirbik (39:20):
Yeah, I think that was something that we spent
learning when we're dating,because I realized that I
remember telling a friend, justa couple of months into us
dating and I was like, I don'teven feel like I know price. And
she was like, What do you mean?
And I just was like, I feel likehe doesn't share a lot with me.
And this is like a really closefriend of mine. And like, we've
been friends for years. And shesaid to me, do you feel like you
(39:42):
trust him? And I just felt likeI realized at that moment that
because Bryce wasn't really openwith me, um, just because of his
personality, or just howdifferent he was from me. I was
beginning to kind of like, youknow, not really it was Easy for
me to get my trust. And so Imean, after conversations, yeah,
(40:02):
following conversations fromthat, I just realized that,
yeah, openness, when someone'sreally open with me, it just
really helps me give my trust tothem. And, yeah, honesty, which
is something that Bryce haslearned about me, which I feel
like is really spot on ourrelationship. And even now in my
age, and then for him, I kind offeel like I need to switch in my
(40:24):
brain to know that, okay, I needto show him that he can rely, if
he tells me to do something, orif we agree that I'm gonna take
ownership on something, makingsure that I follow through, and
that it's just really importantfor him. And times where I've
seen that I've not public truemedia, and something I've said I
was gonna do, I just realizedthat it really affects them way
(40:44):
more than it would affect me.
And I remember the beginning, Ididn't understand it as like,
why is this such a big deal?
Just because it wasn't the samething for me, they will do by
trust, you know? So I thinkcoming out of myself and
realizing like, Oh, this is whatmatters to him, for him to
actually give me his trust? Willyou help us and has been helping
(41:05):
us to be honest.
Bryce Dzirbik (41:08):
Yeah. And related to that, understanding what
does, for example, honesty andopenness mean to the other
person, because me, I thought Iwas being honest. And I wasn't
hiding anything, you know. But Iwas having more shallow
conversations, and not going asdeep into my feelings or
(41:29):
emotions on a situation orsharing all my views. And so
learning what the other person'sperspective is on those things.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:41):
I think it comes back to what Julie
mentioned earlier, that it'sreally about being specific
about those behaviors, andlearning to be specific learning
to have conversations aboutthat. And it's fascinating, I
was reminded, as you werespeaking about, you know, this,
there's seven ways to build newhabits. And one of the one of
(42:01):
the ways to do that is toactually create a richer
language around the topic.
Because then you can starttalking more deeply and
meaningfully about the topic.
And as you build yourvocabulary, you start to also
articulate the why and whysomething works and why it
doesn't work. And that's what Ilove about the intercultural
(42:23):
work. But, you know, we'vetalked about the three colors of
worldview, we mentioned,actually, three or four of the,
the 12 dimensions of culture aswell. And having that language
becomes so helpful, as you startto build the the shared cultural
space in relationship. Now, ofcourse, we live in a world where
intercultural part of of lifehas become much bigger. And it's
(42:47):
not just exclusively for thelarge metropolitan areas of the
world. But people are seem to bedrifting everywhere. And what I
noticed recently, there was astudy about it as a global risk
study. And what fascinated mewas that in that study, they
asked people from around theworld, what are you most
(43:07):
concerned about when it comes toseason that we live in, and
people were seeing? One of thetop three was actually that
people were concerned about theerosion of the social fabric of
society. And I was justwondering, from the lessons that
you've learned, if people areconcerned about the erosion of
(43:30):
the social fabric, as inrelational bridges seem to be
crumbling. How would you adviseour listeners to to build those
bridges, across friends, lovedones, neighbors in the
neighborhood colleagues at thesports club? What would be
practical ways that people canbuild Cultural Bridges? How have
you done it? And how would youencourage our audience to do the
(43:53):
same thing,
Thelma Dzirbik (43:55):
for first thing that comes to my mind is really
remembering that everyone needsa friend, I realized that even
being at work with somefriendships that I've gotten to
enjoy that really started off byme just choosing to seat a
little bit closer to the personthan being off in the other
corner. It's free in thecountry. And I think that that
(44:18):
just maybe made the person feellike I was trying to invite
them, and really given a smileand saying, Hello, How's work
going? Exciting those the personlike little complimentary
comments, conversations. I findhelpful. And I think, even
though I mean, yes, I guessbecause we've come out of COVID
(44:41):
and people have been locked awayfor so long. I think there is a
sense that people have forgottensocial cues in the sentence, but
even still just remembering thatpeople would still like to
interact. Of course not invadingpeople's personal space, but
seeing kind of being on thelookout for who doesn't really
Mind setting up a conversation.
Bryce Dzirbik (45:03):
That's very practical. Yeah, and take it
really just taking the time toseek to get to know other
people. It takes time. And Ithink, especially with
intercultural relationships, andwith time too, the more personal
method you can use to get toknow someone, the better. So
(45:23):
like often, even communicatingwith someone from a different
culture over chat or WhatsAppcan be very challenging. Whereas
if you're able to do a videochat or meet in person, it's a
lot easier to communicate. Youcan see facial cues to use hand
language, they can see your lipsas you're speaking. You can do
(45:48):
things together, like share ameal that are bonding. So like
as you seek to spend time reallydoing that in person together is
really helpful.
Marco Blankenburgh (45:58):
That's great. That's great.
Julie Heiligenberg (46:01):
Yeah, my story. My brother once told me
it was really a beautiful story.
He he travels for work. He'straveled for years all over the
states, especially the nation.
And he said he started justasking people, what's your
story? What's your story?
Everywhere he went, he wouldsay, what's your story? And he
said, I learned so much frompeople, all ages, all stages of
(46:22):
life. But one travel one trip hehad he met a guy from Pakistan.
And he said, Well, I'm actuallyhere on asylum. And I'm waiting
and waiting three years, andtrying to support my family and
stay here. And it really grippedmy brother's heart. And he came
home one day, as I told him,it's this, this family from
(46:44):
Pakistan, what do I do? How do Iget to know them, I said, Well,
you know, they don't live inyour city, but every time you
fly through just to spend sometime with them. And so he
actually started making a pointto go, every time he would fly
through their city would stopand spend time and have a meal
with them. And eventually, itturned into he invited the whole
family to his house in SanDiego, to spend the weekend, and
(47:06):
just hang out and be together.
And he learned that he hadconnections and people who could
help their family. And so heused any connections that he had
to just honor this family andsay, Hey, I just want to help
out any way I can. And theybecame really good friends. And
it really was a life changingexperience for my brother. And a
(47:28):
beautiful way of just enteringinto a natural relationship,
you're doing your daily job,maybe he's flying around, and
just someone who just startssharing their story and connects
with your heart, and you connectwith them. And you stay in that
you don't just say, Okay, seeyou later, he didn't want to
just say See you later, hereally, really wanted to go
farther than that, and wasn'teven living in the same city.
(47:51):
And that was just, it was reallyeye opening to me how it does
take time it takes intention towhen you're going across filters
to learn to understand and andtouch their hearts, and how do
you honor them and care for themand vice versa?
Marco Blankenburgh (48:08):
And I think that's what you mentioned this
your brother's question reallygets at the heart of what people
are, are looking for. They wanttheir life, their life story,
who they are, who they havebecome and how they've become
who they are. They want that tobe recognized. They want a
chance to share that. So that'sa beautiful question. I love it.
Bart Heiligenberg (48:27):
Yeah, when it comes to social cohesion, what
stands out to me, and I stilluse that. Starting a go further
still do was actually a memethat affected my posts on
Facebook with a lot of researchbehind it. And the meme set, you
can only change somebody's mindover dinner. And what it means
(48:51):
is like, you know, nobody'sgoing to change their mind
because of your opinions. Theonly gonna change their mind
because they see the personbehind the opinions. And the
person behind your opinions iswords, changing your mind for so
I kind of radically stoppedtalking about politics on
Facebook, because we're justgonna chase them, right? Because
(49:13):
for the same Facebook, if I wantto change somebody's mind, I
just need to invest in them. Ineed to befriend them. I need to
have them over for dinner. Andthen of course, the dangerous
but I have to vote within andthey might actually change my
mind because I see what kind ofperson they are. Because that's
what we're missing is we stoppedseeing each other as people as
(49:34):
persons. And we started seeingsomebody as a caricature of the
ideology or their religion orthe political conviction, etc.
So we need to go back to seepeople as people.
Marco Blankenburgh (49:48):
That's a really profound part. I think
that's so important. Because ifwe don't then then we we can't
even be in the same space withpeople who think different from
us. than we think we have to,you know, go our separate ways,
which is actually making us poorhuman beings, I think, well, you
(50:11):
all on this call have had achance to, in some way or
another be enriched by being inan intercultural environment by
stepping into an intimaterelationship with somebody from
a very different culturalbackground. So I'm just curious
as we wrap up, what what waswhat would you consider the
(50:34):
enriching part of beingintercultural being in a
relationship with somebody who'sculturally different? How has it
enriched you? I think,
Bart Heiligenberg (50:47):
Julie has invested me in so many ways, and
it's part is her culture bythis, her personality part is
just who she is. For me, whatstands out is, actually my
personality resonates very muchwith her culture. I'm a fairly
indirect personality, and I'msomebody who needs a lot of
(51:09):
affirmation to thrive with inthat culture is not happening a
lot. American culture is alsofairly direct, but also very
affirming. So it's actuallyquite natural for my wife to be
affirming me, because that'spart of the culture. And that
really enriches me. Now, ofcourse, I'm still learning to
(51:31):
afford my wife all the time aswell, because she needs to just
as much but I grew up in thatculture. Yeah,
Julie Heiligenberg (51:41):
yeah, I think it's humbling you realize
that your ways and the way youwere with the way you grew up
the way you see things, man,everybody seems that way. And I
think the more relationships youget into, with different people,
even marrying cross culturally,you just learn to step back and
(52:03):
not be so quick to respond withopinions or this is the way you
do things. And you learn to askmore questions. So tell me why
you say that. You know, wheredoes that come from? And it's,
it's made me a better person.
It's made me more compassionate.
It's made me more loving, andopen learning languages,
(52:25):
understanding people, is stoparound wherever you're going or
walking or traveling. And younotice people you notice real
people from all around. And Idon't think I did that growing
up so much, not even in my owntown. And wherever I go, just
just looking for ways to lovepeople to honor them to help to
(52:48):
serve to care to say, Hey,what's your story to take the
time? And of course, Bart justcompletely enriches me just who
he is his love and his heart forpeople. Everywhere we go, even
our kids like, Where's papa?
He's talking with someone.
Where's Papa he's talking withis just we he's a little bit
behind us because he saw someoneand he just takes the time to
(53:09):
stop. And I've learned a lotfrom him in that, that just to
observe around what's going onand just be in my own little
world. And as really made mewant to pass that on to our kids
and to other people around me.
Marco Blankenburg (53:24):
inspirations.
Bryce Salma.
Thelma Dzirbik (53:28):
Think for me something that I mean? Yeah,
Vice definitely inspires me inso many ways, just because of
how different we are even inpersonality. But he's definitely
just enriched me to look at thewall from a different point of
view. I, for Bryce, he would bethe one that will be more slow
(53:48):
to speak, then I would be, and Ithink just does my personality.
By I think honestly, seeing theway he would take more time to
listen to someone and see wherethey're coming from. And then
when he speaks, they kind offeel like he can relate to them
has just really enriched me tothink of being the same. And so
(54:12):
I think that's something thathas, yeah, I've said practice a
lot more. And I think just seenalso with Bryce's family, I
mean, I got the chance to visithis family earlier this year.
And just seeing how much theywould spend time with each
other. And not just spend timewatching TV together, but
actually asking each other howto do it. So in my like, where
(54:34):
I'm from, you spend time doingthings together. And really at
the end of the day, you spendhours together, but you don't
really know how someone's doingbecause you're not really accent
intentional questions. And so Ishow up to Bryce's family and
it's completely opposite. Hismom's asking me how I'm doing
and she's asked me how it worksgoing. And she's following up on
something I mentioned a longtime ago. And I'm like, Whoa,
(54:56):
interesting. How do you rememberthat? But I think just that
culture has really, uh, thatreally stood out to me. And it
just really is that well, Iactually do that more like
people have things that theywant to share things that you're
thinking about. And if I canfollow up or ask questions that
they can share, and they can geta listening ear, or even a
(55:17):
shoulder to lean on. So I thinkthat's something that has been
enriching for me,
Marco Blankenburgh (55:22):
wonderful.
Bryce Dzirbik (55:23):
Rice. For me, I think, thinking back on her
different views and time, somereally helped me learn what does
it look like to love otherpeople and to prioritize people
over plans or time, like,there's a time share to show up
(55:46):
on time. But there's also a timeto be flexible, to actually get
to care for people. And for menot to be so stuck in my plans
for the day that I miss out onopportunities to care for other
people, or to make time to carefor other people. And so I
think, seeing how my wife makesthe time to really get to know
(56:11):
and care for many other peoplebe flexible to do that. It's an
encouragement to me. That's
Marco Blankenburgh (56:19):
fantastic.
And as you as you're sharing howintercultural relationships have
been rich, too, I'm reminded ofsomething that has also come out
of COVID. And we see that inteams, in organizations that the
topic of creating relationalstrength or relational capital
is all of a sudden, hot again,and teams say we need to get
(56:41):
stronger in relationship on thisteam, because that carries us
through and it lifts us up. Andas you are sharing how you've
enriched each other, I'm justreminded of that, and how, yes,
it's true in in with loved ones,but it's also as true in
relationships with ourcolleagues at work. Well, thank
you so much for thisconversation. I'm sure we could
(57:05):
easily keep this going for muchlonger, Chuck the time equation
out of the window and just focuson relationships. But if, if
you've been listening to thispodcast today, and and you want
to keep that conversation goingthen in the notes, you'll find
ways to connect with the peopleon this podcast. But also I want
(57:26):
to mention something that'sreally dear to my heart. Bart
and Julie have now for a numberof years been running thriving
intercultural marriage workshopssince COVID. Coffee, of course,
virtually. And if you areintrigued by applying deep
intercultural understanding toyour relationship, then yeah,
(57:47):
highly recommend that you reachout to Barton, Juliet, they have
such a wealth of knowledge andwisdom. And they've taken scores
of couples through a verypowerful program. So highly
recommend that thank you, Bart.
And Julie. Thank you, Bryce.
And, Thelma, for joining ustoday. Really appreciate this.
And thank you for, for makingthe time to be on this podcast.
Bart Heiligenberg (58:13):
Yes, I pleasure. Thank you for inviting
us.
Bryce Dzirbik (58:15):
Pleasure.
Thelma Dzirbik (58:16):
Our pleasure.
Thank you so much. Thanks,Marco.
Marco Blankenburgh (58:22):
Thank you so much for joining us for this
episode of the cultural agilitypodcast. If you enjoyed today's
episode, share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast, app or channelfor us forward and recommend
this podcast people around you.
As always, if any of the topicswe discuss today intrigue you,
(58:44):
you will find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes. If youwould like to learn more about
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
culturally agile, you can findmore information and hundreds of
articles at knowledge works.comA special thanks to Jason Carter
(59:05):
for composing the music on thispodcast and to the whole
knowledge works team for makingthis podcast a success. Thank
you Anita Rodriquez, Ara as thisbackyard, gee Suraj and thanks
to VIP and George for audioproduction, Rosalind Raj for
scheduling, and Caleb Straussfor marketing and helping
(59:26):
produce this podcast
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