June 29, 2025 • 51 mins
The surprising shifts in American foreign policy under Trump aren't just political—they're deeply cultural. Marco Blankenburgh and Rana Nejem break new ground by applying KnowledgeWorkx' Three Colors of Worldview framework to decode global politics, revealing patterns that traditional analysis misses entirely.
Trump's leadership represents a seismic shift from America's traditional innocence-guilt orientation (centered on laws and being "right") to a power-fear approach with honor-shame as a secondary driver. His language consistently emphasizes strength, winning, and position: "America's back in charge," and "The Chinese will learn not to test us again." This fundamental change forces both domestic and international actors to recalibrate their responses.
The cultural clashes playing out globally provide fascinating case studies in intercultural misalignment. JD Vance's disastrous NATO security summit appearance violated European diplomatic conventions of respect and consensus-building. Yet the same Vance demonstrated remarkable cultural agility during his visit to India, only to revert to power-oriented rhetoric upon returning home. Meanwhile, China's response to being called "peasants" wasn't about power assertion but about restoring honor in the face of shame—a critical distinction for understanding their behavior.
Saudi Arabia's masterful reception of Trump—from F-16 escorts to purple carpets signifying royalty—shows how cultural intelligence can be strategically deployed to build relationships, while a small misstep with traditional coffee service reveals how easily cultural nuances can be missed.
In our increasingly divided world, with rising nationalism and hardening borders, intercultural agility becomes not just beneficial but essential. The journey begins with self-awareness—understanding our own cultural lenses—and extends to developing skills for effectively engaging across cultural divides, whether in family relationships, workplace collaborations, or international diplomacy.
Discover how you too can develop these critical skills for navigating our complex multicultural world. Visit KnowledgeWorkx.com to explore certification options and access hundreds of articles on intercultural agility.
| In this episode, you will learn:
-- How to respond to powerful leaders making powerful decisions—you can comply, disengage, resist (if you can win), or work within the system
-- Why Saudi Arabia's reception of Trump displayed masterful intercultural agility through symbolic honors tailored to his worldview
-- How China's response to being called "peasants" demonstrates honor-shame dynamics rather than simple power assertion
| Learn More about:
-- Global Leadership - How to Become a Culturally Agile Leader
-- The Top 10 Organizational Values Around the World
-- Interculturally Agile Consulting
-- Looking for a book to take your cultural agility to the next step, check out the Ultimate Intercultural Question Book brought to you by KnowledgeWorkx.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marco Blankenburgh (00:01):
or I can fight it.
But if a leader is power fearoriented and you start, you
fight it.
You better make sure that youcan win, or you stay quiet and
you try to change the systemfrom the inside.
So with power fear, you reallyonly have four choices.
But the first thing I reallyneed to embrace is powerful
(00:21):
people make powerful decisions.
I can't change that.
It's what I do with it.
That's what determines theoutcome.
Welcome to the UnlockingCultural Agility podcast, where
we bring you insights andstories from some of the most
advanced interculturalpractitioners working around the
(00:42):
world to help you becomeinterculturally agile and
succeed in today's culturallycomplex world.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWives,where every day, we help
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
So well, thank you all forcoming.
(01:13):
We are very excited about thiswebinar, this podcast.
The opportunity to actually dothis, on the one hand, is a
little bit scary for us We'venever done this before, as Caleb
said but at the same time,being able to use the ICI
framework and understand what'shappening in our world better.
(01:36):
We do that in our office allthe time.
We talk about the world from anICI perspective regularly when
we're together.
So we want to give you anopportunity to also experience
that, and it's fantastic thatRana has agreed to say yes.
So thank you, rana, for beinghere, and I was immediately
(01:58):
thinking about her because Iactually knew Rana already
before she knew me.
I actually knew Rana alreadybefore she knew me because she's
involved in broadcasting andjournalism Jordan TV, cnn.
She worked for the embassy, shehad an incredible career behind
(02:21):
her, with degrees incommunication, and she published
a fantastic book, when in theArab World, and that's a great
book if you are planning to dowork in the Middle East or if
you are planning to move here.
So yeah, rana, thank you somuch for joining and I look
forward to this conversationtogether.
Rana Nejem (02:39):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here andI'm so glad that you actually
asked me to be part of this.
I remember when I first met youit was in 2012, when I was
first introduced toKnowledgeWorks and to your work,
and it's when I did thecertification course the one
week certification course inDubai and since that day I have
(03:01):
been applying and using all thetools from KnowledgeWorks and
I've been growing along withKnowledgeWorks and I really
value all of these tools so much.
And to say something aboutMarco, for those of you who are
not very familiar with Marco, Irealized that you are truly a
(03:22):
you live what you preach.
You are a completely you knowintercultural citizen of the
world.
Born in the Netherlands with theoldest of about four boys.
You soon became a globalcitizen and moved around
different parts of the world,and I was happy to find out that
(03:42):
you also lived in Jordan forabout seven years and that's
where I'm from and that's whereI am right now and then, in
South Africa, you met andmarried your wife, jolene, who
is from South Africa, and thenyou together moved to the UAE,
where four children were born inthe Emirates, and so you have a
(04:04):
completely intercultural familywith four third culture kids.
And of course, marco is theco-founder or co-inventor of the
ICI framework and a masterfacilitator and behavioral
consultant.
And really you are the compassmaker, helping people to go
(04:29):
places that they might not reachon their own, to experience not
just living, not just survivingin this interculturally
complicated world, but reallythriving in it.
So I'm really happy I got tomeet you all that all those
years ago and I'm so happy to beworking alongside you with this
(04:53):
and happy to be here with you.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:55):
Thank you, rana.
I'm honored by yourintroduction.
It hasn't happened for a while,so I really appreciate it a
while, so I really appreciate it, thank you.
Rana Nejem (05:09):
So let's look at this, the topic for today.
So when marco actually sent methe topic and the idea of doing
this webinar trump trade andtariffs understanding the forces
behind the current globalshifts my initial reaction was
panic why are we talking aboutpolitics?
I'm not a politician, we're notpoliticians.
I'm sure there are a lot ofother people who are far more
(05:31):
qualified to talk about thepolitics of this, but then,
after we had a conversation, Iunderstood this was not about
politics.
This is actually something thatI don't believe has been done
before.
It's looking at what ishappening in politics and in
current affairs through anintercultural lens, which is
(05:52):
going to be very, veryinteresting, and I think we're
playing around with it togetherhere and I'm really excited to
see what comes out, what we seethrough that intercultural lens.
So what were your thoughtsabout it when you came up with
(06:16):
this perspective, this new idea?
Marco Blankenburgh (06:19):
Well, it's been in the conversation, like I
said, in the office, but alsoin working with leaders around
the world, being able tounderstand what's happening in
the world.
Of course, there's multiplelenses that are necessary it's
history, it's politics, it'seconomics, it's psychology, it's
(06:44):
sociological at the same time.
But very often people don'ttalk about the cultural element
or they make very, verygeneralized statements.
And that's why, using theKnowledgeWorks framework, which
Caleb already mentioned, we willbe doing focusing on the Three
Colors of Worldview, thecultural mapping inventory,
(07:05):
because really there's a lot tolearn about some of the key
players in our world and whythey behave the way they do from
a cultural perspective.
And that's why this is such anexciting subject, because, like
you said, I don't know ofanybody who is actually taking
this perspective.
And, just a bit of a spoileralert, we will make available
(07:30):
some of the interculturalanalysis documents that we've
created so you can find thedetails later on.
They will be made available toyou and it's just beautiful.
And one of the reasons whywe're doing it now is because we
have, in the last six weeks,we've worked with uh, with a
(07:54):
friend of ours at google ai, tocreate our own ai engine.
We've now have over 20 years ofresearch and knowledge works on
all things intercultural.
We've worked in over 70countries so we, with help from
outside, we were able to createan AI engine that has all our
(08:15):
intellectual property in it,nicely locked in a box, and it
was just absolutely amazing tostart seeing what we can do with
that and, uh, one of the thingsthat one of the outputs of that
we will make available to youum later on, uh looking at into
interculturally analyzing themovers and shakers of our world
(08:38):
and it we want to share some ofthat today.
I'm super excited about itbecause it really has taught me
so much.
Rana Nejem (08:45):
Yeah, that sounds so amazing.
That sounds really amazing.
Can't wait to unpack thistogether.
Before we just move any further, let's just take a few seconds
for the benefit of our listeners, who might not be very familiar
with the three colors ofworldview.
So this is one of the tools, oneof the frameworks that was
(09:06):
developed by KnowledgeWorks andit looks at the world in three
colors of worldview in terms ofthe main motivators of behavior.
So it says it sees that oneworldview is one doing that
which brings honor honor versusshame, safeguarding my honor and
avoiding shame.
(09:27):
The other worldview is aboutbeing right, innocent and
avoiding being wrong or guilty.
And the third one is doingwhich brings control, power and
influence, while avoiding fear.
Influence while avoiding fearand just quick pointers about
(09:48):
them that you will never find apure honor.
Shame or innocence, guilt orpower, fear they're always all
present in various degreestogether.
But it's an amazing frameworkthat helps us understand what's
happening underneath the surface, the main motivator of behavior
that affects the way weinteract, the way we make
(10:09):
decisions, the way that wecommunicate.
So we'll be using that lens, ifyou like, to understand some of
the things that are happeningnow in our world and politics,
and also just to also keep inmind that there's no nothing
that is completely positive orcompletely negative.
(10:30):
Like any value, when you takeit to its extreme it kind of
flips and becomes negative.
So each worldview has kind ofwithin it the silver lining and
then the shadow side.
So there's no better, worse,best.
It's just a different way oflooking at the world.
(10:50):
If you like so, are you ready,marco?
Let's dig right in.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:57):
Let's do this yeah.
Rana Nejem (10:59):
Let's dig right in.
So looking at what's happeningaround us.
So looking at what's happeningaround us.
We're now less than four monthsinto Trump's second presidency
and, needless to say, there'sbeen a lot of surprises.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:29):
Do you think applying the cultural lens can
help us make sense of things andperhaps even help us to
navigate them, to adjust towhat's going on.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there are multiplesurprises around the world, and
one of them is when I speak tomy friends from the United
States.
We have over 150 ICIpractitioners in the US, and I
think the biggest shift is bestexplained, I would say, through
(11:53):
the lens of the three colors ofworldview.
By and large, americanpresidencies in recent years
have mainly been more right andwrong oriented, the rule of law
and maybe a secondary poweroriented or honor oriented.
(12:13):
It depends a little bit on thepresident.
But when Trump became president,it's clear from his language
and from the way he engages withpeople that position, power,
strength, winning are very, veryimportant ingredients, and if
you start looking at hisinaugural address, for instance,
(12:37):
he said things like America'sback in charge.
Another thing he said the worldwill once again respect
America's strength when China,when things escalated in March
this year, he said in a publicaddress the Chinese will learn
not to test us again.
We're the ones who decide howthe game is played.
(12:59):
So then there's many, many morestatements like that that
actually point to when it comesto the three colors of worldview
, a strong power orientation,and we would call that in three
colors language.
That his, that is his primarydriver and that is, I think, the
biggest surprise for people,because he by far is probably
(13:23):
the strongest power fearoriented president that the US
has had, in our recent historyat least, and that is a huge
shift compared to previouspresidents.
No matter what you think aboutit, it's a way of operating that
people have to get used to and,of course, that then resonates
(13:44):
around the world.
So the shift from lessinnocence, guilt actually, when
we did the interculturalanalysis with our AI engine,
what it came back with it says,actually, his secondary driver
is honor, shame.
And if you just look at a fewstatements, in February he was
(14:05):
at a rally in Florida and hesaid those who stick with us
will share in the victory, thosewho betray us will will be
remembered.
And that was you know, you joinranks and you share in the
glory, but if you don't, youwill actually share in the shame
.
But if you don't, you willactually share in the shame.
(14:25):
And he used language like pride, historical greatness, bringing
the greatness back.
And that is more honor, shameoriented and the difficult thing
that most people reallystruggle with is the fact that
right and wrong is actually notas important.
It's about winning, it's aboutgetting things done.
(14:52):
There was one incident aroundborder control and who is
allowed to be taken out of thecountry and under what
conditions.
At one point he said we don'tneed court approval to protect
our country, and there's manystatements that are there that
are either then mirrored by thepeople around him, where the
application of the law is oftenseen as a roadblock that is used
(15:19):
in a negative way as opposed toin a pure legal way, and that
is also a hard thing for peopleto get used to, because it's
just a very different way ofoperating.
Rana Nejem (15:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That makes so much sensebecause really we've always been
so used to things coming out ofthe United States is that it
has to be legal.
The main, the, the, the mainthing that we come back to is
the courts and what's the, thelaw, which then determines what
(15:51):
is right and what is wrong.
What is, you know, innocentversus guilt?
And he's completely shiftedthat and and decided it
completely, and it's all aboutbecause the you know right is
determined by whoever is inpower, and he is in power, and
that's what makes it right that.
That's very helpful to see it,and I never thought there would
(16:13):
be an honor shame aspect to it.
Actually, I never saw thatbefore, but that makes a lot of
sense yeah, and we always.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:22):
We always say when we, when we work with
leaders or teams around theworld, when you discover that
power fear is a strong driverfor a leader, one of the things
to wrap your head around is thatI always say powerful leaders
make powerful decisions, andthat might sound simplistic, but
(16:49):
actually it's not so.
A leader will make a decision,no matter if you agree with it
or not.
Powerful leaders make powerfuldecisions.
And then I have a number ofchoices I can make.
I can either disengage if Ihave the choice sometimes you
don't have the choice, sometimesyou don't have the choice.
I can comply, and compliance isa big factor of staying in favor
(17:11):
.
If a leader is more power fearoriented, compliance is very
important or I can fight it.
But if a leader is power fearoriented and you fight it, you
better make sure that you canwin, or you stay quiet and you
try to change the system fromthe inside.
So with power fear, you reallyonly have four choices.
(17:32):
But the first thing I reallyneed to embrace is powerful
people make powerful decisions.
I can't change that.
It's what I do with it.
Rana Nejem (17:42):
That's what determines the outcome and in
that world view the power, fearworld view what good looks like
and you said it what good lookslike is doing as you're told,
and if you do as you're told,then you are good in that world
view.
So, keeping all of that in mindand saying that you know
(18:03):
powerful leaders make powerfuldecisions, what lessons can we
take from that to our own lifeto make it real for us in the
workplace?
To a leader who is very rightversus wrong, abiding by the
(18:26):
rules and regulations and beingfair to everyone, and then
suddenly we have somebody newwho is completely in the power
of fear and it's about powerfuldecisions.
What's your advice to deal withthat?
Marco Blankenburgh (18:38):
Well, first of all, the biggest problem we
sit with is that quite a fewpeople experience this shift as
as difficult, stressful, wrong.
Rana Nejem (18:50):
Sorry, that didn't throw me off race, when we just
saw cancel, delete and let's goback to where we were so we were
talking about how, what thelessons that we can learn from
when we're working in anorganization and we're used to
an innocence guilt or somebodywho does the right thing and
(19:12):
follows the rules and abides bythem, and then the leader
changes into someone who is morepowerful.
So you said some of the things,that options that we have, but
how do we deal with that?
Marco Blankenburgh (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, the first thing that comes to
mind.
We're surrounded, unfortunately, in our world by people in
power who use power in the wrongway or in an abusive way we
always talk about.
You know, power can be used intwo ways.
You can be sucking the life outof people you become bigger,
others become smaller.
(19:45):
Or you can be life giving youcan be empowering.
Or you can be life-giving youcan be empowering.
So the difficult thing aboutthe world we live in is that
power is often seen as anegative word and we don't
believe that Power is actually apositive word.
(20:05):
We need to recognize that.
If we don't reconcile what wedo with power and how we use it
in our world, we will justbecome like some of those bad
examples that pop up in our head, and this is why we believe
(20:27):
that power fear is not thenegative one of the three.
You know, rana and I arefacilitating this webinar.
We're in a position of powerand we hope that we will use
that in such a way that it isactually life-giving for you,
that it is empowering to you,and we need to really wrestle
with that in our world andcreate a positive counterforce.
So when you are in a positionof power, when you have
(20:49):
influence, either formally orinformally, really think
carefully about how you use that.
The word empowerment is used sofrequently in organizations, but
very often people don't knowhow to really activate true
empowerment, because it's acultural thing.
It's not just saying from nowon managers will be empowered.
(21:11):
It doesn't work that way.
So that's the first thing Iwould say.
But those four things that Imentioned earlier on I either
comply, I disengage, I fightagainst it or I lay low and work
the system from the inside out.
Very often that's what you needto do if you're not the most
senior person in the room, soaccepting that sometimes people
(21:36):
make those decisions and thendeciding how am I going to
engage in this situation If youare in a position of seniority.
Culturally, figuring out whatempowerment really looks like,
what life-giving choices, words,engagements look like, is
(21:57):
really important, and it's notalways the same when it comes to
the type, the cultural mix thatyou might have on your team,
and we talk a lot about that inour coaching and in our team
development sessions.
Rana Nejem (22:13):
That makes a lot of sense.
That's very helpful, and I likewhen you said one of the
options is you kind of lay lowand work within the system, and
that's very helpful when youactually shift the meaning of
what's going on around you tosee it in a different lens and
to understand that fear is notnecessarily a negative thing.
(22:35):
So look at it, how can I beempowered by that?
How can fear actually help medo something better rather than
disempower me?
That's definitely one helpfulright.
So let's dig a little bitdeeper in that and go back to
the world stage and so, withwhat's been happening, one of
(22:57):
the things that I've found Istruggled with and I'm sure a
lot of other people might agreewith me is the way that JD Vance
showed up in the NATO securitysummit and as well as his speech
while visiting Greenland.
Can you help me understand,help us all understand that,
(23:21):
what happened there, throughlooking at it through the
intercultural lens?
Marco Blankenburgh (23:26):
So at the securities conference in Munich
earlier this year, vance, thatwas actually his first public
appearance, almost a 22 minutespeech, and he really surprised
(23:57):
everyone and then got everybodyupset.
And the reason why is becausehe overused the direct
communication style.
So we talk about direct versusindirect communication in our 12
dimensions and he just you knowin English they say he shot
straight from the hip.
So he mentioned that thebiggest threats Europe was
facing were from within, notfrom the outside.
(24:17):
He criticized Europeanimmigration policies.
He even publicly announcedsupport for the far right party
in Germany, the ADF party inGermany, the ADF, and he even
questioned the way democracy waspracticed in Europe.
Now, when you look at Europeanpolitics, there is of course,
(24:45):
many different cultures involved, but there is sort of a common
denominator of respect, ofcareful diplomacy, of not
criticizing in public, findingconsensus.
That's sort of the style inEurope.
So with his first publicappearance, not only did he did
(25:06):
he break that style, he also wasin the eyes of the Europeans,
no matter what he thought abouthis own speech.
But in the eyes of theEuropeans he was actually not
respectful of history.
He wasn't honoring them in theway they were expecting from a
(25:26):
first visit.
They said that it wasinterference oriented, that it
was condescending, that it camefrom a place of not
understanding European history.
There's quite a lot of Europeanpoliticians and senior generals
who commented on it, on hisspeech, and we all know that
(25:51):
interculturally, that firstappearance is pivotal.
You know, am I going to buildbridges or not?
Now, it could well be, and I'venot found any reference to that
at all.
Could well be that he purposelywanted to rock the boat, that
he wanted to be disrespectful,et cetera, but I couldn't find
any reference to that.
So what happened?
(26:13):
The Three Colors of Worldviewsort of explain it.
He took a position of powerwhich nobody was expecting.
So as a young politician, new tothe game and then representing
the US government, his firstappearance taking a position of
power in that manner whereyou're actually offending, that
(26:38):
was where things really startedto go wrong and you can see that
in the responses.
So it marked a significantshift in how the US was going to
relate to Europe and the peopleare still calibrating for that.
So the collaborative, consensus, respectful way of dealing with
(26:59):
one another in Europe.
All of a sudden they said waita minute, us is not going to
play that way anymore.
And that was rubbed in evenfurther when he went to
Greenland.
So when he went to Greenland heactually visited the island with
his wife and that's where hebasically said the Danish
government has not done well byGreenland, they've not managed
(27:23):
the island well, they've notsupported it well, and that that
of course.
Then of course, all kinds ofresponses.
He literally said you've notdone a good job by the people of
Greenland, you've underinvested, despite the fact that
they spent half a billion eurosa year in Greenland.
(27:44):
So all of that was not takenvery well, neither by the Danish
government.
But the Danes are very harmonyoriented, consensus oriented.
So, for instance, if you lookat what the Danes said in the
Danish newspapers, for instancethe prime minister or the
(28:05):
foreign minister, he said werespect the US for our
longstanding relationship, butwe did not feel respected in
what was said by Vance when hevisited Greenland A Greenlandic
MP actually, because thegovernment was elected shortly
after Vance left the island Oneof the Greenlandic MPs who is
(28:29):
now in power.
They said well, we shouldprobably close the US consulate
on Greenland because this is nothow we like to be treated.
So yeah, lack of respect, lackof common decency.
Rana Nejem (28:43):
That was another phrase that was used, so yeah,
yeah, so it seems that he tookthe power fear way that he
became used to from his boss andapplied that in a completely
different setting.
That wasn't expecting it andwas completely shocked.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:12):
So it really backfired, uh, significantly.
The other thing that's reallyimportant to remember is that,
um, one of the dimensions on the12 dimensions is the status
dimension.
So it's ascribed status versusachieved status and if you're
new you have to assume that youwill not be ascribed status just
because you are especially notin a more innocence, guilt
(29:34):
oriented achieved statusenvironment and NATO is
definitely in a chief statusenvironment.
So he came in assuming thatbecause of his position, that he
could say those things, things,it backfired on him and it
created a very rocky road theselast few months because, as a
(29:55):
result, they actually mentallywere taking him from his
pedestal, because they were notascribing him the status that he
had, because by his words hewasn't achieving it.
Rana Nejem (30:08):
Right and ascribed is.
It's about who I am achieved isabout what I do.
What's more important?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:14):
or less.
Rana Nejem (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely and so this is really
fascinating.
Yet when he goes to india, thehome country of his wife, we see
something completely different.
What happened?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:31):
yeah, then you see that he can be
culturally sensitive and he canactually uh, adjust.
And uh, yeah, when you look up,you see any pictures of the
vans family with their children.
They have three young childrenvisiting in india, visiting with
the president, visiting some ofthe religious sites, festivals,
(30:58):
cultural festivals.
It looks beautiful, you know,and I just looking at everything
that he said during that tripthat was in the public, it was
very respectful, it was honoring, it was collaborative language,
etc.
So it was fascinating to tocompare those, you know, uh,
(31:22):
also, for instance, uh, the thecomment about the chinese.
Everybody probably has heardthat he called the Chinese
peasants in one of the pressconferences.
But then, stark contrast, whenthe family visits India you
should look it up, you know,even dress, his wife beautifully
(31:44):
dressed, the colors weresymbolic as they landed in India
.
Him, you know, by and largestill wearing a blazer, but the
kids also beautiful local dress.
Yeah, it was really nicepictures to watch.
And then he comes home and thenthe conflict between Pakistan
(32:05):
and India erupts and then hemanages to offend India by
saying that well, that conflictis none of our business, while
when he was visiting India heactually honored the president
and said we want to collaborate,we want to continue the long
(32:27):
relationship that we have had.
And then the first comment backhome he says that conflict is
none of our business, andculturally, of course, that is
not a wise thing to say because,ultimately, on the one hand,
you're saying we're with you allthe way, we want to continue
the relationship.
On the other hand, you'resaying, you know, sort it out
(32:50):
yourself, so to speak.
Uh, so, uh, I thought he was ona good path, uh, and just one
little comment can easilydestroy your, your cultural
credibility along the way sowhat that tells me?
Rana Nejem (33:05):
actually I get kind of two, two points here.
One, that we can shift ourworldviews.
A person can change and theenvironment that we are in
really does have a big impact onwhich worldview we function
from.
More so it seems.
When he was there in India itmade sense for him and he
(33:27):
shifted.
But then when he came back homethe cultural worldview of his
boss was far more powerful andthat kind of imposed itself on
him and so he shifted back intothe power fear.
We tend to see that happeningas well with us in our work
environment, because at home Imight function from a certain
(33:51):
worldview and, depending on theorganization I work with, I find
myself when I go to work Ishift into a completely other
worldview can you.
So, from your perspective, howcan we um?
How can we manage that?
How can we help that?
Marco Blankenburgh (34:13):
Yeah, and you're raising a really good
point, because when we look at,for instance, the three colors
of worldview or the 12dimensions, these tools are not
pointing to personality, the wayyou show up from, let's say,
through the lens of the threecolors of worldview, people who
(34:34):
are interculturally agile.
They will actually shift and weoften hear from people well, at
home I'm like this and when I'mat work I'm a bit more like
that.
So the ability to make thatshift is what we call being
interculturally agile.
So it's really important torecognize these are not
(34:58):
personality assessments orpersonality frameworks.
They are very situational andlearning to shift is important.
The only dilemma and that sortof is playing in the background.
Sometimes the work environmentforces you to shift in ways that
(35:18):
you might even feeluncomfortable with, and that is
something to watch out for.
I would say can't tell you knowfans showing up culturally
beautifully when he was in Indiaand then shifting back to a
strong power fear orientation inhis first comment on the
(35:40):
country and the conflict withPakistan.
But I think what we sometimessee is that the work environment
pushes you into a certaincultural way of behaving and
initially you sort of you know,you sort of go with it.
But then you realize, actuallyI don't want to be like that, or
(36:01):
I don't want to be engagingwith my colleagues like that,
and that's where it's soincredibly important to know we
always talk about your hiddenline in the sand.
What's my line in the sand?
To say I cannot go any furtherwith this, because that's the
danger you become so culturallyagile that you just ebb and flow
(36:22):
with whatever happens, andthat's not healthy.
And I still remember I wasworking on a team where I
discovered what was happening onthe team and I actually
eventually decided to disengagebecause I had my line in the
sand, so to speak, and Irealized what, the way they were
(36:43):
doing things.
I was not going to be able tochange it and but I didn't want
to cross that line together withthem and, but I didn't want to
cross that line together, uh,with them.
Rana Nejem (36:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of an arabic saying, a thing we
have in arabic, and it goessomething along the lines of um,
if you, when you um cohabit orlive with a group for 40 days,
you either become like them, youbecome one of them, you become
like them, or, if the gap is toobig, you leave.
So it depends on how big thatgap is, but the environment that
(37:20):
you're in really does have thatimpact on a person.
I think we still have a bitmore time.
Let's look at some of the otherworld leaders there's so many
that have been at loggerheadswith each other and let's look
at that through the three colorsof worldview lens to help us
(37:44):
understand how other worldleaders are responding to what's
happening.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's really
important, and that's onequestion that people have asked.
So is the leadership of Chinaalso power fear oriented?
And actually, when you dig intoit, they are not.
They could easily be perceivedthat way, but honor shame is
(38:13):
still the main driver in XiJinping's way of operating.
What happens, though, if youshame somebody like him, the
Chinese Communist Party or Chinaas a nation, like the comment
that Vance made about Chinesepeasants?
(38:34):
It was fascinating to watch that, because that was one of the
few things that the Chinesegovernment allowed to go viral
on Weibo.
So they, of course, controlsocial media, but that
particular clip they almost theysaid this is how the US thinks
about us, and if you now searchonline, there's lots of memes
(38:55):
related to that peasant comment.
Why was that allowed to goviral on Weibo?
Why were so many memes created?
Because it shamed the wholecountry, and that's where the
response came from.
So, yes, if you shame somebody,the response they give can
sometimes feel like a power fearresponse, but it's a response
(39:18):
that was triggered by shame, andI think that's something really
, really important to understand.
So, when Xi Jinping has manyspeeches and the good thing
about AI, as many speeches.
And the good thing about AIwith our own engine, we can
search in every language.
So, for instance, there is astrong sense of rejuvenating the
(39:48):
Chinese nation.
That was one of the things.
When Xi Jinping came to power,that was one of his things, and
he called it the greatest dreamof all Chinese in modern time.
So it's very much a communityaccountability thing.
It's us together putting Chinaon the map and we all put our
shoulders under it.
(40:08):
And when you look at the memesthat have been created as a
result of the peasant comment,it's always about well, look at
how these peasants have createdthe fastest bullet trains in the
world, and look how thesepeasants have created one of the
(40:29):
best aeronautical programs inthe world, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, technology, robotics, the car industry.
So look at what all thesepeasants all can do.
So it really triggers that shamemechanism and that's how they
respond.
And what I think is happeningis that, as a result of that,
(40:51):
what I think is happening isthat, as a result of that, the
de-escalation has become verydifficult.
And if you look at theannouncements a few days ago
about tariffs being diminished,the first thing that happened
was China said America came tous and asked for meetings and
America said no, the Chinesecame to us and asked for
(41:14):
meetings.
So, neither you know, it waslike a hooblings first contest
between the two countries.
But the damage done in terms ofthe amount of shame that was,
that was projected onto China,onto its leadership, onto the
Communist Party, that will takea very long time to mend and
(41:35):
heal and maybe, you know, wemight not see it in our lifetime
.
Rana Nejem (41:41):
It depends what happens in the next few weeks.
Very interesting perspective.
It really.
Heike sheds a lot of light onit.
So I can't let this passwithout asking you about Trump's
current visit to Saudi.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's happening right now.
Rana Nejem (42:00):
It's happening right now, and so, looking at what's
going on, it's just beenyesterday, so have you seen any
kind of anything, any reactionsthat show a lack of cultural
intelligence or culturalawareness?
Marco Blankenburgh (42:19):
well, well, let's start with with I.
I must commend the saudis.
They did a wonderful jobknowing or maybe they don't use
the same language as we do hereon as we're talking, but they
know how to impress a leaderlike Trump and really, in a
(42:39):
positive way, make him feelimportant, respected.
So it started with the F-16sfrom the Saudi Air Force guiding
the Air Force One into Riyadh.
And, by the way, f-16s arebuilt in the US and sold by the
US to Saudi, so he sees theplanes they sold flying next to
(43:02):
his Air Force One.
And then, when he landed, therewas a 21 salute gun serenade.
That is the highest honorwithin the military 21 shots.
So that was really important.
And then, from an Arabian pointof view, the prime of the prime
(43:24):
of the royal, white Arabianhorses accompanied his limousine
to the palace.
That was also a sign ofbestowing honor.
And don't forget the purplecarpet.
That was another clever move bythe Saudis to create that sense
of royalty.
It wasn't red, it was purple.
(43:45):
And historically, if you lookat the color purple used by
royals, the Romans were famousfor that, and so there was a lot
of symbolism.
Uh, there was even a mobilemcdonald's truck available in
case they really understand whatthey're dealing with but what
(44:08):
was?
when it comes to interculturalmoments, uh uh, those who know
the Middle East the first coffeeserved, typically in one of
those small cups, is veryimportant, and a golden rule is
you drink that coffee you haveto, especially the first pour,
and there is a quick way to getout of a second pour if you
(44:31):
don't want, and you wiggle yourcup and give it back with your
right hand.
So what happened yesterday isthat four people were sitting
there.
The servers came with thecoffee and the cups.
Everybody got one Rubio wasthere, trump, mbs and one other
Saudi official and everybody didwhat you're supposed to do you
(44:52):
drink the coffee and then youwiggle it and give it back to
the waiter.
And Trump was sitting there withhis cup in hand and he didn't
quite know what to do.
And then he saw that the otherthree people's cups were taken
away and his cup wasn't takenaway, which for the insiders
that means he, because he wasn't, he didn't drink from it yet it
would be disrespectful for thewaiter to take his cup away.
(45:15):
But then Trump looked around.
You could see it on the video.
He looked around and saidwhat's happening here?
Why is my cup not taken?
And then he just put it on thetable and he continued the
conversation with MBS.
It was just a fascinating moment.
If you know the Middle East,it's like, oh, he wasn't briefed
on that particular moment.
(45:36):
So, yeah, I thought that wasfascinating.
But I was very, very impressedwith the Saudis and, of course,
the big dilemma right now is thejumbo jet gift from Qatar.
It's going to be veryinteresting to see how that
(46:03):
honorable gift with a purpose isnow going to be managed by the
US government and there's a lotof debate and it has hit the
Senate several times already, soit's going to be fascinating to
see how they navigate that.
Rana Nejem (46:11):
That's going to be very, very interesting.
Yes, so I think we're consciousof time.
I want to.
I just have one last question Iget to start to wrap it up.
Well, it seems that, witheverything that's happening
although maybe you know,technology and the media seem to
(46:32):
be, we think, might have beenbringing us closer together, but
the contrary is actuallyhappening right now there's more
walls that are being built,there's more misunderstandings,
there's more everything isbroken actually, and this
(46:53):
complete lack of understandingacross the different cultures.
What can we do?
What, what can?
How can you help us to actuallybe part of the, the good forces
that are building those bridgesof understanding between our
cultures, and to help us toprepare to deal the the world
(47:16):
that we have today?
Marco Blankenburgh (47:18):
yeah, well, there's been people that have
said in the past well, we'rebecoming so global, we'll all
become the same culture.
And then people said, as aresult of covid, you know,
becoming interculturally agilewill not be as necessary anymore
, and the opposite is, we'reactually seeing walls go up.
We see identity crisishappening more frequently and
(47:43):
belonging becomes an issue then.
So, as a result of that ofcourse I'm biased because I've
been in the interculturalintelligence field for 30 plus
years, but I see all around us,every continent we work, there's
a need for more interculturalagility.
People who understand, peoplewho can perceive what's
(48:08):
happening and who can actuallybuild bridges, deescalate, who
can build culture.
That's one of our, our mostimportant contributors.
I think, um, that the people whowork, we work with, and the
people who are certified, likeyourself, they are really good
at building culture and and wedesperately need that in the
(48:30):
world we need bridge buildersand we find that, yeah, politics
sometimes can be holding usback, but starting small,
starting at home, starting withyour friends we're not a perfect
family, but building a healthyculture at home and teaching our
(48:53):
kids.
Some of our colleagues aredoing the same.
Start with if you have kids,teach them how to be culture
creators and use that with yourfriends and extend it into work
and get the skills and, ofcourse, we would love to talk to
you about that and we have lotsand lots of information
available but it starts small.
(49:16):
It starts with small tools.
A lot of what we do are justsmall tools that moved in the
needle a little bit.
Create better conversations,draw better conclusions, keep
the conversation going where inother situations, you might have
already disengaged, and that'swhat we need in this world.
Rana Nejem (49:36):
So it starts with all of us.
Self-awareness is the firststep.
So for each one of us to totake an honest look inside
ourself and to really understandwhat's going on in here, what
are the lenses that I'm wearingthat's making me judge things
around me in a different way,and and then with that, we're
(49:57):
able to then adjust our behaviorto understand the culturally
motivated behavior of others and, as you said, definitely start
small in our home and in ourworkplace.
If we do that, there's thatripple effect that I strongly
believe in.
Marco Blankenburgh (50:14):
Yes, thank you so happy we could have this
conversation.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this episode of the
Cultural Agility Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
(50:37):
podcast to people around you.
If any of the topics wediscussed today intrigue you,
you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout getting certified in
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
interculturally agile, you canfind more information and
(50:59):
hundreds of articles atknowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, shelley Reinhardt,rajita Raj, nita Rodriguez,
karen Kondon and special thanksto Matthew Blankenberg for audio
(51:22):
production, rosalind Raj forscheduling and Caleb Strauss for
helping produce this podcast.
or I can fight it.
But if a leader is power fearoriented and you start, you
fight it.
You better make sure that youcan win, or you stay quiet and
you try to change the systemfrom the inside.
So with power fear, you reallyonly have four choices.
But the first thing I reallyneed to embrace is powerful
(00:21):
people make powerful decisions.
I can't change that.
It's what I do with it.
That's what determines theoutcome.
Welcome to the UnlockingCultural Agility podcast, where
we bring you insights andstories from some of the most
advanced interculturalpractitioners working around the
(00:42):
world to help you becomeinterculturally agile and
succeed in today's culturallycomplex world.
I'm your host, marcoBlankenberg, international
Director of KnowledgeWives,where every day, we help
individuals and companiesachieve relational success in
that same complex world.
So well, thank you all forcoming.
(01:13):
We are very excited about thiswebinar, this podcast.
The opportunity to actually dothis, on the one hand, is a
little bit scary for us We'venever done this before, as Caleb
said but at the same time,being able to use the ICI
framework and understand what'shappening in our world better.
(01:36):
We do that in our office allthe time.
We talk about the world from anICI perspective regularly when
we're together.
So we want to give you anopportunity to also experience
that, and it's fantastic thatRana has agreed to say yes.
So thank you, rana, for beinghere, and I was immediately
(01:58):
thinking about her because Iactually knew Rana already
before she knew me.
I actually knew Rana alreadybefore she knew me because she's
involved in broadcasting andjournalism Jordan TV, cnn.
She worked for the embassy, shehad an incredible career behind
(02:21):
her, with degrees incommunication, and she published
a fantastic book, when in theArab World, and that's a great
book if you are planning to dowork in the Middle East or if
you are planning to move here.
So yeah, rana, thank you somuch for joining and I look
forward to this conversationtogether.
Rana Nejem (02:39):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here andI'm so glad that you actually
asked me to be part of this.
I remember when I first met youit was in 2012, when I was
first introduced toKnowledgeWorks and to your work,
and it's when I did thecertification course the one
week certification course inDubai and since that day I have
(03:01):
been applying and using all thetools from KnowledgeWorks and
I've been growing along withKnowledgeWorks and I really
value all of these tools so much.
And to say something aboutMarco, for those of you who are
not very familiar with Marco, Irealized that you are truly a
(03:22):
you live what you preach.
You are a completely you knowintercultural citizen of the
world.
Born in the Netherlands with theoldest of about four boys.
You soon became a globalcitizen and moved around
different parts of the world,and I was happy to find out that
(03:42):
you also lived in Jordan forabout seven years and that's
where I'm from and that's whereI am right now and then, in
South Africa, you met andmarried your wife, jolene, who
is from South Africa, and thenyou together moved to the UAE,
where four children were born inthe Emirates, and so you have a
(04:04):
completely intercultural familywith four third culture kids.
And of course, marco is theco-founder or co-inventor of the
ICI framework and a masterfacilitator and behavioral
consultant.
And really you are the compassmaker, helping people to go
(04:29):
places that they might not reachon their own, to experience not
just living, not just survivingin this interculturally
complicated world, but reallythriving in it.
So I'm really happy I got tomeet you all that all those
years ago and I'm so happy to beworking alongside you with this
(04:53):
and happy to be here with you.
Marco Blankenburgh (04:55):
Thank you, rana.
I'm honored by yourintroduction.
It hasn't happened for a while,so I really appreciate it a
while, so I really appreciate it, thank you.
Rana Nejem (05:09):
So let's look at this, the topic for today.
So when marco actually sent methe topic and the idea of doing
this webinar trump trade andtariffs understanding the forces
behind the current globalshifts my initial reaction was
panic why are we talking aboutpolitics?
I'm not a politician, we're notpoliticians.
I'm sure there are a lot ofother people who are far more
(05:31):
qualified to talk about thepolitics of this, but then,
after we had a conversation, Iunderstood this was not about
politics.
This is actually something thatI don't believe has been done
before.
It's looking at what ishappening in politics and in
current affairs through anintercultural lens, which is
(05:52):
going to be very, veryinteresting, and I think we're
playing around with it togetherhere and I'm really excited to
see what comes out, what we seethrough that intercultural lens.
So what were your thoughtsabout it when you came up with
(06:16):
this perspective, this new idea?
Marco Blankenburgh (06:19):
Well, it's been in the conversation, like I
said, in the office, but alsoin working with leaders around
the world, being able tounderstand what's happening in
the world.
Of course, there's multiplelenses that are necessary it's
history, it's politics, it'seconomics, it's psychology, it's
(06:44):
sociological at the same time.
But very often people don'ttalk about the cultural element
or they make very, verygeneralized statements.
And that's why, using theKnowledgeWorks framework, which
Caleb already mentioned, we willbe doing focusing on the Three
Colors of Worldview, thecultural mapping inventory,
(07:05):
because really there's a lot tolearn about some of the key
players in our world and whythey behave the way they do from
a cultural perspective.
And that's why this is such anexciting subject, because, like
you said, I don't know ofanybody who is actually taking
this perspective.
And, just a bit of a spoileralert, we will make available
(07:30):
some of the interculturalanalysis documents that we've
created so you can find thedetails later on.
They will be made available toyou and it's just beautiful.
And one of the reasons whywe're doing it now is because we
have, in the last six weeks,we've worked with uh, with a
(07:54):
friend of ours at google ai, tocreate our own ai engine.
We've now have over 20 years ofresearch and knowledge works on
all things intercultural.
We've worked in over 70countries so we, with help from
outside, we were able to createan AI engine that has all our
(08:15):
intellectual property in it,nicely locked in a box, and it
was just absolutely amazing tostart seeing what we can do with
that and, uh, one of the thingsthat one of the outputs of that
we will make available to youum later on, uh looking at into
interculturally analyzing themovers and shakers of our world
(08:38):
and it we want to share some ofthat today.
I'm super excited about itbecause it really has taught me
so much.
Rana Nejem (08:45):
Yeah, that sounds so amazing.
That sounds really amazing.
Can't wait to unpack thistogether.
Before we just move any further, let's just take a few seconds
for the benefit of our listeners, who might not be very familiar
with the three colors ofworldview.
So this is one of the tools, oneof the frameworks that was
(09:06):
developed by KnowledgeWorks andit looks at the world in three
colors of worldview in terms ofthe main motivators of behavior.
So it says it sees that oneworldview is one doing that
which brings honor honor versusshame, safeguarding my honor and
avoiding shame.
(09:27):
The other worldview is aboutbeing right, innocent and
avoiding being wrong or guilty.
And the third one is doingwhich brings control, power and
influence, while avoiding fear.
Influence while avoiding fearand just quick pointers about
(09:48):
them that you will never find apure honor.
Shame or innocence, guilt orpower, fear they're always all
present in various degreestogether.
But it's an amazing frameworkthat helps us understand what's
happening underneath the surface, the main motivator of behavior
that affects the way weinteract, the way we make
(10:09):
decisions, the way that wecommunicate.
So we'll be using that lens, ifyou like, to understand some of
the things that are happeningnow in our world and politics,
and also just to also keep inmind that there's no nothing
that is completely positive orcompletely negative.
(10:30):
Like any value, when you takeit to its extreme it kind of
flips and becomes negative.
So each worldview has kind ofwithin it the silver lining and
then the shadow side.
So there's no better, worse,best.
It's just a different way oflooking at the world.
(10:50):
If you like so, are you ready,marco?
Let's dig right in.
Marco Blankenburgh (10:57):
Let's do this yeah.
Rana Nejem (10:59):
Let's dig right in.
So looking at what's happeningaround us.
So looking at what's happeningaround us.
We're now less than four monthsinto Trump's second presidency
and, needless to say, there'sbeen a lot of surprises.
Marco Blankenburgh (11:29):
Do you think applying the cultural lens can
help us make sense of things andperhaps even help us to
navigate them, to adjust towhat's going on.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there are multiplesurprises around the world, and
one of them is when I speak tomy friends from the United
States.
We have over 150 ICIpractitioners in the US, and I
think the biggest shift is bestexplained, I would say, through
(11:53):
the lens of the three colors ofworldview.
By and large, americanpresidencies in recent years
have mainly been more right andwrong oriented, the rule of law
and maybe a secondary poweroriented or honor oriented.
(12:13):
It depends a little bit on thepresident.
But when Trump became president,it's clear from his language
and from the way he engages withpeople that position, power,
strength, winning are very, veryimportant ingredients, and if
you start looking at hisinaugural address, for instance,
(12:37):
he said things like America'sback in charge.
Another thing he said the worldwill once again respect
America's strength when China,when things escalated in March
this year, he said in a publicaddress the Chinese will learn
not to test us again.
We're the ones who decide howthe game is played.
(12:59):
So then there's many, many morestatements like that that
actually point to when it comesto the three colors of worldview
, a strong power orientation,and we would call that in three
colors language.
That his, that is his primarydriver and that is, I think, the
biggest surprise for people,because he by far is probably
(13:23):
the strongest power fearoriented president that the US
has had, in our recent historyat least, and that is a huge
shift compared to previouspresidents.
No matter what you think aboutit, it's a way of operating that
people have to get used to and,of course, that then resonates
(13:44):
around the world.
So the shift from lessinnocence, guilt actually, when
we did the interculturalanalysis with our AI engine,
what it came back with it says,actually, his secondary driver
is honor, shame.
And if you just look at a fewstatements, in February he was
(14:05):
at a rally in Florida and hesaid those who stick with us
will share in the victory, thosewho betray us will will be
remembered.
And that was you know, you joinranks and you share in the
glory, but if you don't, youwill actually share in the shame
.
But if you don't, you willactually share in the shame.
(14:25):
And he used language like pride, historical greatness, bringing
the greatness back.
And that is more honor, shameoriented and the difficult thing
that most people reallystruggle with is the fact that
right and wrong is actually notas important.
It's about winning, it's aboutgetting things done.
(14:52):
There was one incident aroundborder control and who is
allowed to be taken out of thecountry and under what
conditions.
At one point he said we don'tneed court approval to protect
our country, and there's manystatements that are there that
are either then mirrored by thepeople around him, where the
application of the law is oftenseen as a roadblock that is used
(15:19):
in a negative way as opposed toin a pure legal way, and that
is also a hard thing for peopleto get used to, because it's
just a very different way ofoperating.
Rana Nejem (15:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
That makes so much sensebecause really we've always been
so used to things coming out ofthe United States is that it
has to be legal.
The main, the, the, the mainthing that we come back to is
the courts and what's the, thelaw, which then determines what
(15:51):
is right and what is wrong.
What is, you know, innocentversus guilt?
And he's completely shiftedthat and and decided it
completely, and it's all aboutbecause the you know right is
determined by whoever is inpower, and he is in power, and
that's what makes it right that.
That's very helpful to see it,and I never thought there would
(16:13):
be an honor shame aspect to it.
Actually, I never saw thatbefore, but that makes a lot of
sense yeah, and we always.
Marco Blankenburgh (16:22):
We always say when we, when we work with
leaders or teams around theworld, when you discover that
power fear is a strong driverfor a leader, one of the things
to wrap your head around is thatI always say powerful leaders
make powerful decisions, andthat might sound simplistic, but
(16:49):
actually it's not so.
A leader will make a decision,no matter if you agree with it
or not.
Powerful leaders make powerfuldecisions.
And then I have a number ofchoices I can make.
I can either disengage if Ihave the choice sometimes you
don't have the choice, sometimesyou don't have the choice.
I can comply, and compliance isa big factor of staying in favor
(17:11):
.
If a leader is more power fearoriented, compliance is very
important or I can fight it.
But if a leader is power fearoriented and you fight it, you
better make sure that you canwin, or you stay quiet and you
try to change the system fromthe inside.
So with power fear, you reallyonly have four choices.
(17:32):
But the first thing I reallyneed to embrace is powerful
people make powerful decisions.
I can't change that.
It's what I do with it.
Rana Nejem (17:42):
That's what determines the outcome and in
that world view the power, fearworld view what good looks like
and you said it what good lookslike is doing as you're told,
and if you do as you're told,then you are good in that world
view.
So, keeping all of that in mindand saying that you know
(18:03):
powerful leaders make powerfuldecisions, what lessons can we
take from that to our own lifeto make it real for us in the
workplace?
To a leader who is very rightversus wrong, abiding by the
(18:26):
rules and regulations and beingfair to everyone, and then
suddenly we have somebody newwho is completely in the power
of fear and it's about powerfuldecisions.
What's your advice to deal withthat?
Marco Blankenburgh (18:38):
Well, first of all, the biggest problem we
sit with is that quite a fewpeople experience this shift as
as difficult, stressful, wrong.
Rana Nejem (18:50):
Sorry, that didn't throw me off race, when we just
saw cancel, delete and let's goback to where we were so we were
talking about how, what thelessons that we can learn from
when we're working in anorganization and we're used to
an innocence guilt or somebodywho does the right thing and
(19:12):
follows the rules and abides bythem, and then the leader
changes into someone who is morepowerful.
So you said some of the things,that options that we have, but
how do we deal with that?
Marco Blankenburgh (19:25):
Yeah, yeah, the first thing that comes to
mind.
We're surrounded, unfortunately, in our world by people in
power who use power in the wrongway or in an abusive way we
always talk about.
You know, power can be used intwo ways.
You can be sucking the life outof people you become bigger,
others become smaller.
(19:45):
Or you can be life giving youcan be empowering.
Or you can be life-giving youcan be empowering.
So the difficult thing aboutthe world we live in is that
power is often seen as anegative word and we don't
believe that Power is actually apositive word.
(20:05):
We need to recognize that.
If we don't reconcile what wedo with power and how we use it
in our world, we will justbecome like some of those bad
examples that pop up in our head, and this is why we believe
(20:27):
that power fear is not thenegative one of the three.
You know, rana and I arefacilitating this webinar.
We're in a position of powerand we hope that we will use
that in such a way that it isactually life-giving for you,
that it is empowering to you,and we need to really wrestle
with that in our world andcreate a positive counterforce.
So when you are in a positionof power, when you have
(20:49):
influence, either formally orinformally, really think
carefully about how you use that.
The word empowerment is used sofrequently in organizations, but
very often people don't knowhow to really activate true
empowerment, because it's acultural thing.
It's not just saying from nowon managers will be empowered.
(21:11):
It doesn't work that way.
So that's the first thing Iwould say.
But those four things that Imentioned earlier on I either
comply, I disengage, I fightagainst it or I lay low and work
the system from the inside out.
Very often that's what you needto do if you're not the most
senior person in the room, soaccepting that sometimes people
(21:36):
make those decisions and thendeciding how am I going to
engage in this situation If youare in a position of seniority.
Culturally, figuring out whatempowerment really looks like,
what life-giving choices, words,engagements look like, is
(21:57):
really important, and it's notalways the same when it comes to
the type, the cultural mix thatyou might have on your team,
and we talk a lot about that inour coaching and in our team
development sessions.
Rana Nejem (22:13):
That makes a lot of sense.
That's very helpful, and I likewhen you said one of the
options is you kind of lay lowand work within the system, and
that's very helpful when youactually shift the meaning of
what's going on around you tosee it in a different lens and
to understand that fear is notnecessarily a negative thing.
(22:35):
So look at it, how can I beempowered by that?
How can fear actually help medo something better rather than
disempower me?
That's definitely one helpfulright.
So let's dig a little bitdeeper in that and go back to
the world stage and so, withwhat's been happening, one of
(22:57):
the things that I've found Istruggled with and I'm sure a
lot of other people might agreewith me is the way that JD Vance
showed up in the NATO securitysummit and as well as his speech
while visiting Greenland.
Can you help me understand,help us all understand that,
(23:21):
what happened there, throughlooking at it through the
intercultural lens?
Marco Blankenburgh (23:26):
So at the securities conference in Munich
earlier this year, vance, thatwas actually his first public
appearance, almost a 22 minutespeech, and he really surprised
(23:57):
everyone and then got everybodyupset.
And the reason why is becausehe overused the direct
communication style.
So we talk about direct versusindirect communication in our 12
dimensions and he just you knowin English they say he shot
straight from the hip.
So he mentioned that thebiggest threats Europe was
facing were from within, notfrom the outside.
(24:17):
He criticized Europeanimmigration policies.
He even publicly announcedsupport for the far right party
in Germany, the ADF party inGermany, the ADF, and he even
questioned the way democracy waspracticed in Europe.
Now, when you look at Europeanpolitics, there is of course,
(24:45):
many different cultures involved, but there is sort of a common
denominator of respect, ofcareful diplomacy, of not
criticizing in public, findingconsensus.
That's sort of the style inEurope.
So with his first publicappearance, not only did he did
(25:06):
he break that style, he also wasin the eyes of the Europeans,
no matter what he thought abouthis own speech.
But in the eyes of theEuropeans he was actually not
respectful of history.
He wasn't honoring them in theway they were expecting from a
(25:26):
first visit.
They said that it wasinterference oriented, that it
was condescending, that it camefrom a place of not
understanding European history.
There's quite a lot of Europeanpoliticians and senior generals
who commented on it, on hisspeech, and we all know that
(25:51):
interculturally, that firstappearance is pivotal.
You know, am I going to buildbridges or not?
Now, it could well be, and I'venot found any reference to that
at all.
Could well be that he purposelywanted to rock the boat, that
he wanted to be disrespectful,et cetera, but I couldn't find
any reference to that.
So what happened?
(26:13):
The Three Colors of Worldviewsort of explain it.
He took a position of powerwhich nobody was expecting.
So as a young politician, new tothe game and then representing
the US government, his firstappearance taking a position of
power in that manner whereyou're actually offending, that
(26:38):
was where things really startedto go wrong and you can see that
in the responses.
So it marked a significantshift in how the US was going to
relate to Europe and the peopleare still calibrating for that.
So the collaborative, consensus, respectful way of dealing with
(26:59):
one another in Europe.
All of a sudden they said waita minute, us is not going to
play that way anymore.
And that was rubbed in evenfurther when he went to
Greenland.
So when he went to Greenland heactually visited the island with
his wife and that's where hebasically said the Danish
government has not done well byGreenland, they've not managed
(27:23):
the island well, they've notsupported it well, and that that
of course.
Then of course, all kinds ofresponses.
He literally said you've notdone a good job by the people of
Greenland, you've underinvested, despite the fact that
they spent half a billion eurosa year in Greenland.
(27:44):
So all of that was not takenvery well, neither by the Danish
government.
But the Danes are very harmonyoriented, consensus oriented.
So, for instance, if you lookat what the Danes said in the
Danish newspapers, for instancethe prime minister or the
(28:05):
foreign minister, he said werespect the US for our
longstanding relationship, butwe did not feel respected in
what was said by Vance when hevisited Greenland A Greenlandic
MP actually, because thegovernment was elected shortly
after Vance left the island Oneof the Greenlandic MPs who is
(28:29):
now in power.
They said well, we shouldprobably close the US consulate
on Greenland because this is nothow we like to be treated.
So yeah, lack of respect, lackof common decency.
Rana Nejem (28:43):
That was another phrase that was used, so yeah,
yeah, so it seems that he tookthe power fear way that he
became used to from his boss andapplied that in a completely
different setting.
That wasn't expecting it andwas completely shocked.
Marco Blankenburgh (29:12):
So it really backfired, uh, significantly.
The other thing that's reallyimportant to remember is that,
um, one of the dimensions on the12 dimensions is the status
dimension.
So it's ascribed status versusachieved status and if you're
new you have to assume that youwill not be ascribed status just
because you are especially notin a more innocence, guilt
(29:34):
oriented achieved statusenvironment and NATO is
definitely in a chief statusenvironment.
So he came in assuming thatbecause of his position, that he
could say those things, things,it backfired on him and it
created a very rocky road theselast few months because, as a
(29:55):
result, they actually mentallywere taking him from his
pedestal, because they were notascribing him the status that he
had, because by his words hewasn't achieving it.
Rana Nejem (30:08):
Right and ascribed is.
It's about who I am achieved isabout what I do.
What's more important?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:14):
or less.
Rana Nejem (30:15):
Yeah, yeah, definitely and so this is really
fascinating.
Yet when he goes to india, thehome country of his wife, we see
something completely different.
What happened?
Marco Blankenburgh (30:31):
yeah, then you see that he can be
culturally sensitive and he canactually uh, adjust.
And uh, yeah, when you look up,you see any pictures of the
vans family with their children.
They have three young childrenvisiting in india, visiting with
the president, visiting some ofthe religious sites, festivals,
(30:58):
cultural festivals.
It looks beautiful, you know,and I just looking at everything
that he said during that tripthat was in the public, it was
very respectful, it was honoring, it was collaborative language,
etc.
So it was fascinating to tocompare those, you know, uh,
(31:22):
also, for instance, uh, the thecomment about the chinese.
Everybody probably has heardthat he called the Chinese
peasants in one of the pressconferences.
But then, stark contrast, whenthe family visits India you
should look it up, you know,even dress, his wife beautifully
(31:44):
dressed, the colors weresymbolic as they landed in India
.
Him, you know, by and largestill wearing a blazer, but the
kids also beautiful local dress.
Yeah, it was really nicepictures to watch.
And then he comes home and thenthe conflict between Pakistan
(32:05):
and India erupts and then hemanages to offend India by
saying that well, that conflictis none of our business, while
when he was visiting India heactually honored the president
and said we want to collaborate,we want to continue the long
(32:27):
relationship that we have had.
And then the first comment backhome he says that conflict is
none of our business, andculturally, of course, that is
not a wise thing to say because,ultimately, on the one hand,
you're saying we're with you allthe way, we want to continue
the relationship.
On the other hand, you'resaying, you know, sort it out
(32:50):
yourself, so to speak.
Uh, so, uh, I thought he was ona good path, uh, and just one
little comment can easilydestroy your, your cultural
credibility along the way sowhat that tells me?
Rana Nejem (33:05):
actually I get kind of two, two points here.
One, that we can shift ourworldviews.
A person can change and theenvironment that we are in
really does have a big impact onwhich worldview we function
from.
More so it seems.
When he was there in India itmade sense for him and he
(33:27):
shifted.
But then when he came back homethe cultural worldview of his
boss was far more powerful andthat kind of imposed itself on
him and so he shifted back intothe power fear.
We tend to see that happeningas well with us in our work
environment, because at home Imight function from a certain
(33:51):
worldview and, depending on theorganization I work with, I find
myself when I go to work Ishift into a completely other
worldview can you.
So, from your perspective, howcan we um?
How can we manage that?
How can we help that?
Marco Blankenburgh (34:13):
Yeah, and you're raising a really good
point, because when we look at,for instance, the three colors
of worldview or the 12dimensions, these tools are not
pointing to personality, the wayyou show up from, let's say,
through the lens of the threecolors of worldview, people who
(34:34):
are interculturally agile.
They will actually shift and weoften hear from people well, at
home I'm like this and when I'mat work I'm a bit more like
that.
So the ability to make thatshift is what we call being
interculturally agile.
So it's really important torecognize these are not
(34:58):
personality assessments orpersonality frameworks.
They are very situational andlearning to shift is important.
The only dilemma and that sortof is playing in the background.
Sometimes the work environmentforces you to shift in ways that
(35:18):
you might even feeluncomfortable with, and that is
something to watch out for.
I would say can't tell you knowfans showing up culturally
beautifully when he was in Indiaand then shifting back to a
strong power fear orientation inhis first comment on the
(35:40):
country and the conflict withPakistan.
But I think what we sometimessee is that the work environment
pushes you into a certaincultural way of behaving and
initially you sort of you know,you sort of go with it.
But then you realize, actuallyI don't want to be like that, or
(36:01):
I don't want to be engagingwith my colleagues like that,
and that's where it's soincredibly important to know we
always talk about your hiddenline in the sand.
What's my line in the sand?
To say I cannot go any furtherwith this, because that's the
danger you become so culturallyagile that you just ebb and flow
(36:22):
with whatever happens, andthat's not healthy.
And I still remember I wasworking on a team where I
discovered what was happening onthe team and I actually
eventually decided to disengagebecause I had my line in the
sand, so to speak, and Irealized what, the way they were
(36:43):
doing things.
I was not going to be able tochange it and but I didn't want
to cross that line together withthem and, but I didn't want to
cross that line together, uh,with them.
Rana Nejem (36:54):
Yeah, it reminds me of an arabic saying, a thing we
have in arabic, and it goessomething along the lines of um,
if you, when you um cohabit orlive with a group for 40 days,
you either become like them, youbecome one of them, you become
like them, or, if the gap is toobig, you leave.
So it depends on how big thatgap is, but the environment that
(37:20):
you're in really does have thatimpact on a person.
I think we still have a bitmore time.
Let's look at some of the otherworld leaders there's so many
that have been at loggerheadswith each other and let's look
at that through the three colorsof worldview lens to help us
(37:44):
understand how other worldleaders are responding to what's
happening.
Marco Blankenburgh (37:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's really
important, and that's onequestion that people have asked.
So is the leadership of Chinaalso power fear oriented?
And actually, when you dig intoit, they are not.
They could easily be perceivedthat way, but honor shame is
(38:13):
still the main driver in XiJinping's way of operating.
What happens, though, if youshame somebody like him, the
Chinese Communist Party or Chinaas a nation, like the comment
that Vance made about Chinesepeasants?
(38:34):
It was fascinating to watch that, because that was one of the
few things that the Chinesegovernment allowed to go viral
on Weibo.
So they, of course, controlsocial media, but that
particular clip they almost theysaid this is how the US thinks
about us, and if you now searchonline, there's lots of memes
(38:55):
related to that peasant comment.
Why was that allowed to goviral on Weibo?
Why were so many memes created?
Because it shamed the wholecountry, and that's where the
response came from.
So, yes, if you shame somebody,the response they give can
sometimes feel like a power fearresponse, but it's a response
(39:18):
that was triggered by shame, andI think that's something really
, really important to understand.
So, when Xi Jinping has manyspeeches and the good thing
about AI, as many speeches.
And the good thing about AIwith our own engine, we can
search in every language.
So, for instance, there is astrong sense of rejuvenating the
(39:48):
Chinese nation.
That was one of the things.
When Xi Jinping came to power,that was one of his things, and
he called it the greatest dreamof all Chinese in modern time.
So it's very much a communityaccountability thing.
It's us together putting Chinaon the map and we all put our
shoulders under it.
(40:08):
And when you look at the memesthat have been created as a
result of the peasant comment,it's always about well, look at
how these peasants have createdthe fastest bullet trains in the
world, and look how thesepeasants have created one of the
(40:29):
best aeronautical programs inthe world, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera, technology, robotics, the car industry.
So look at what all thesepeasants all can do.
So it really triggers that shamemechanism and that's how they
respond.
And what I think is happeningis that, as a result of that,
(40:51):
what I think is happening isthat, as a result of that, the
de-escalation has become verydifficult.
And if you look at theannouncements a few days ago
about tariffs being diminished,the first thing that happened
was China said America came tous and asked for meetings and
America said no, the Chinesecame to us and asked for
(41:14):
meetings.
So, neither you know, it waslike a hooblings first contest
between the two countries.
But the damage done in terms ofthe amount of shame that was,
that was projected onto China,onto its leadership, onto the
Communist Party, that will takea very long time to mend and
(41:35):
heal and maybe, you know, wemight not see it in our lifetime
.
Rana Nejem (41:41):
It depends what happens in the next few weeks.
Very interesting perspective.
It really.
Heike sheds a lot of light onit.
So I can't let this passwithout asking you about Trump's
current visit to Saudi.
Marco Blankenburgh (41:57):
Oh yeah, yeah, it's happening right now.
Rana Nejem (42:00):
It's happening right now, and so, looking at what's
going on, it's just beenyesterday, so have you seen any
kind of anything, any reactionsthat show a lack of cultural
intelligence or culturalawareness?
Marco Blankenburgh (42:19):
well, well, let's start with with I.
I must commend the saudis.
They did a wonderful jobknowing or maybe they don't use
the same language as we do hereon as we're talking, but they
know how to impress a leaderlike Trump and really, in a
(42:39):
positive way, make him feelimportant, respected.
So it started with the F-16sfrom the Saudi Air Force guiding
the Air Force One into Riyadh.
And, by the way, f-16s arebuilt in the US and sold by the
US to Saudi, so he sees theplanes they sold flying next to
(43:02):
his Air Force One.
And then, when he landed, therewas a 21 salute gun serenade.
That is the highest honorwithin the military 21 shots.
So that was really important.
And then, from an Arabian pointof view, the prime of the prime
(43:24):
of the royal, white Arabianhorses accompanied his limousine
to the palace.
That was also a sign ofbestowing honor.
And don't forget the purplecarpet.
That was another clever move bythe Saudis to create that sense
of royalty.
It wasn't red, it was purple.
(43:45):
And historically, if you lookat the color purple used by
royals, the Romans were famousfor that, and so there was a lot
of symbolism.
Uh, there was even a mobilemcdonald's truck available in
case they really understand whatthey're dealing with but what
(44:08):
was?
when it comes to interculturalmoments, uh uh, those who know
the Middle East the first coffeeserved, typically in one of
those small cups, is veryimportant, and a golden rule is
you drink that coffee you haveto, especially the first pour,
and there is a quick way to getout of a second pour if you
(44:31):
don't want, and you wiggle yourcup and give it back with your
right hand.
So what happened yesterday isthat four people were sitting
there.
The servers came with thecoffee and the cups.
Everybody got one Rubio wasthere, trump, mbs and one other
Saudi official and everybody didwhat you're supposed to do you
(44:52):
drink the coffee and then youwiggle it and give it back to
the waiter.
And Trump was sitting there withhis cup in hand and he didn't
quite know what to do.
And then he saw that the otherthree people's cups were taken
away and his cup wasn't takenaway, which for the insiders
that means he, because he wasn't, he didn't drink from it yet it
would be disrespectful for thewaiter to take his cup away.
(45:15):
But then Trump looked around.
You could see it on the video.
He looked around and saidwhat's happening here?
Why is my cup not taken?
And then he just put it on thetable and he continued the
conversation with MBS.
It was just a fascinating moment.
If you know the Middle East,it's like, oh, he wasn't briefed
on that particular moment.
(45:36):
So, yeah, I thought that wasfascinating.
But I was very, very impressedwith the Saudis and, of course,
the big dilemma right now is thejumbo jet gift from Qatar.
It's going to be veryinteresting to see how that
(46:03):
honorable gift with a purpose isnow going to be managed by the
US government and there's a lotof debate and it has hit the
Senate several times already, soit's going to be fascinating to
see how they navigate that.
Rana Nejem (46:11):
That's going to be very, very interesting.
Yes, so I think we're consciousof time.
I want to.
I just have one last question Iget to start to wrap it up.
Well, it seems that, witheverything that's happening
although maybe you know,technology and the media seem to
(46:32):
be, we think, might have beenbringing us closer together, but
the contrary is actuallyhappening right now there's more
walls that are being built,there's more misunderstandings,
there's more everything isbroken actually, and this
(46:53):
complete lack of understandingacross the different cultures.
What can we do?
What, what can?
How can you help us to actuallybe part of the, the good forces
that are building those bridgesof understanding between our
cultures, and to help us toprepare to deal the the world
(47:16):
that we have today?
Marco Blankenburgh (47:18):
yeah, well, there's been people that have
said in the past well, we'rebecoming so global, we'll all
become the same culture.
And then people said, as aresult of covid, you know,
becoming interculturally agilewill not be as necessary anymore
, and the opposite is, we'reactually seeing walls go up.
We see identity crisishappening more frequently and
(47:43):
belonging becomes an issue then.
So, as a result of that ofcourse I'm biased because I've
been in the interculturalintelligence field for 30 plus
years, but I see all around us,every continent we work, there's
a need for more interculturalagility.
People who understand, peoplewho can perceive what's
(48:08):
happening and who can actuallybuild bridges, deescalate, who
can build culture.
That's one of our, our mostimportant contributors.
I think, um, that the people whowork, we work with, and the
people who are certified, likeyourself, they are really good
at building culture and and wedesperately need that in the
(48:30):
world we need bridge buildersand we find that, yeah, politics
sometimes can be holding usback, but starting small,
starting at home, starting withyour friends we're not a perfect
family, but building a healthyculture at home and teaching our
(48:53):
kids.
Some of our colleagues aredoing the same.
Start with if you have kids,teach them how to be culture
creators and use that with yourfriends and extend it into work
and get the skills and, ofcourse, we would love to talk to
you about that and we have lotsand lots of information
available but it starts small.
(49:16):
It starts with small tools.
A lot of what we do are justsmall tools that moved in the
needle a little bit.
Create better conversations,draw better conclusions, keep
the conversation going where inother situations, you might have
already disengaged, and that'swhat we need in this world.
Rana Nejem (49:36):
So it starts with all of us.
Self-awareness is the firststep.
So for each one of us to totake an honest look inside
ourself and to really understandwhat's going on in here, what
are the lenses that I'm wearingthat's making me judge things
around me in a different way,and and then with that, we're
(49:57):
able to then adjust our behaviorto understand the culturally
motivated behavior of others and, as you said, definitely start
small in our home and in ourworkplace.
If we do that, there's thatripple effect that I strongly
believe in.
Marco Blankenburgh (50:14):
Yes, thank you so happy we could have this
conversation.
Thank you so much for joiningus for this episode of the
Cultural Agility Podcast.
If you enjoyed today's episode,share it with someone.
The best way to help us out isby leaving a review on your
favorite podcast app or channel,or forward and recommend this
(50:37):
podcast to people around you.
If any of the topics wediscussed today intrigue you,
you'll find links to articlesdiscussing them in greater depth
in the podcast notes.
If you'd like to learn moreabout getting certified in
intercultural intelligence andhow you can become more
interculturally agile, you canfind more information and
(50:59):
hundreds of articles atknowledgeworkscom.
A special thanks to JasonCarter for composing the music
on this podcast and to the wholeKnowledgeWorks team for making
this podcast a success.
Thank you, shelley Reinhardt,rajita Raj, nita Rodriguez,
karen Kondon and special thanksto Matthew Blankenberg for audio
(51:22):
production, rosalind Raj forscheduling and Caleb Strauss for
helping produce this podcast.
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