November 5, 2024 • 22 mins
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What if ancient scriptures still hold valuable lessons for our modern lives? In our latest episode of "Unpacking Truths," Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo explore the unsettling tale of Elisha and the two bears from 2 Kings 2. With a mix of humor and deep reflection, we pull back the layers of this curious story, examining Bethel's idolatrous history and the consequences of mocking divine figures. Not only do we wrestle with the cultural and symbolic significance of terms like "na'arim" and the number 42, but we also consider how these ancient narratives can serve as cautionary tales for today's world. Prepare for an engaging conversation that blends historical context with contemporary moral insights.
Our exploration doesn't stop there. Inspired by Phyllis Tribble's "Texts of Terror," we venture into more emotionally charged stories, focusing on the challenging narratives of violence against women in the Old Testament. We look at these stories through the lens of redemption, struggling with their discomfort to uncover deeper truths about brokenness and divine grace. By drawing parallels with personal stories and figures like Jonah, Jeremiah, and Esther, we aim to reveal how these scriptures continue to resonate, offering hope and redemption. As you listen, we invite you to confront these difficult stories alongside us, reflect on your own role in the grand narrative, and share your thoughts on the scripture that speaks to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to our next episode of Unpacking
Truths, where we are going totake a few minutes to unpack
some creepy, scary, disturbingBible verses and Bible stories.
So we are going to come at thisboth in a serious way with some
of them and maybe a playful waywith some of the others.
(00:21):
So you may guess who's going tocome at them, which way by,
maybe, if you've gotten to knowus already.
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'mPastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Pastor Mo, I am going to ask you to be the first one
up.
Which one do you want to startwith?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, let's unpack.
What is more fun than one of myfavorite stories, bible stories
that I read to my children whenthey were young?
It comes out of 2 Kings 2.
It is the one where Elisha hasthe two bears come out and maul
some kids.
So I'm just going to dive intothis scripture reading before
(01:12):
you're all too disturbed, butactually let me give a little
bit of a background of what'sgoing on during that time.
So what had happened was they?
You know, elisha is walking toBethel and Bethel is known for
its idol worship.
It is a people that havestepped away from God and the
(01:32):
king Jeroboam I, he actuallyinstilled golden calf worship as
a way to deter the people fromworshiping the one true God.
Okay, and Elisha?
It may sound a lot like Elijah,and that's because Elisha was
the disciple of Elijah and, ifyou want to think of this, so
(01:54):
Elijah was actually like he's,like the Obi-Wan of prophets.
Yes, so we can liken Elisha tolike Luke, right.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And so here he is.
He's going into Bethel, and letme go ahead and read.
So this comes out of 2 Kings 2,23-24.
Elisha left Jericho and went upto Bethel.
As he was walking along theroad, a group of boys from the
town began mocking and makingfun of him.
Go away, baldy, they chanted,go away, baldy.
(02:24):
Elisha turned around and lookedat them and he cursed them in
the name of the Lord.
Then two bears came out of thewoods and mauled 42 of them.
Now some actually translationssay she bears, so they're female
bears.
Because you know what?
You don't mess with a mama bear.
You better not play or youcould get mauled.
(02:47):
That's all the message to thechildren.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So what do you make of that scary, creepy, weird
story Mo?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You know there are severe and immediate
consequences if you want to makefun of, if you call someone
bald, no, Don't mock bald people, bad things happen.
If you want to mock a prophet ofthe Lord, be prepared to be
mauled.
No, yeah.
So what kind of helped me feela little bit better, right, as I
(03:16):
dived into?
I can't just present this toyou and be like, and there you
go, but I looked into this alittle bit and what made me feel
a little better is the Hebrewword for these young boys, right
, or often children.
Sometimes in some translationsit's na'arim, which actually
means young men.
So I don't this is stillhorrible, but it made me feel a
(03:38):
little better to think theseguys are maybe in their twenties
rather than like littlechildren.
These guys are maybe in their20s, rather than like little
children.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So I'm not saying it's still great, but yeah, yeah
, you know, and Mo, this is thereminder that there are accounts
in scriptures that sometimesare weird or disturbing.
We don't know what to really dowith them.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
You know, sometimes there may be things that are
lost on us, that are justconfusing to us trying to look
back over this much time Because, yeah, not a lot of morals or
just sort of a scary sense ofhow to take an account like that
.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Is this one you read to your kids too?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, oh, of course no, I jumped over this one, Mo
yeah, and the children's Biblethat we give out at baptisms
does not include this story.
Let me tell you a story ofElisha.
This is not in there, no Welloh, go ahead.
No.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I was going to say there is some significance too
with the 42, because I was kindof like, why 42?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And only 42 of them are mauled.
Which I learned as I readdeeper into it is that there
were a lot more young men and 42of them sadly got taken down.
But so 42 does represent withinscripture.
Several times in scripture itmeans a time of testing,
judgment and punishment.
(05:00):
So we see in the Israel'swilderness wandering, the
Israelites encamped in 42different places during their
40-year journey.
And then it was 42 months oftribulation, we see in
Revelation 11.
And it's a significant period.
Like I said, tribulation,persecution, it's an opposition
(05:20):
to God's people by evil forces.
And so what it's saying is likethere's a bigger understanding
here that when you know when youmock the ways of God, when you
mock God's prophetic word orGod's guidance in your life
right and turn from ithardheartedly, like there's
consequences, there's, you know,severity in your life that
(05:43):
could come like in the form oftwo she bears mauling you.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I mean, I have yet to see that, but you know hey I
first for everything why I carrybear spray when I am up at
glacier national park.
So that might be wise it mightbe, and and not because I mock
profits yeah, and don't callanyone baldy no, ever.
Well, we did not share witheach other in detail.
We sort of named this.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So it's going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
One of the ones that I chose also has a death theme
to it.
We're going dark, you guys yeahwe are dark this week, but it is
from the New Testament, fromthe book of Acts, the fifth
chapter, ananias and Sapphira.
And let me just read this.
But there was a certain mannamed Ananias who, with his wife
(06:30):
Sapphira, sold some property.
He brought part of the money tothe apostles, claiming it was
the full amount.
With his wife's consent, hekept the rest.
Then Peter said Ananias, whyhave you let Satan fill your
heart?
You lied to the Holy Spirit andyou kept some of the money for
(06:50):
yourself.
The property was yours to sellor not sell as you wished.
And after selling it, the moneywas yours, was also yours to
give away.
How could you do a thing likethis?
You weren't lying to us, but toGod.
As soon as Ananias heard thesewords, he fell to the floor and
died.
Oh, that's rough.
Everyone who heard about it,everyone who heard about it, was
(07:14):
terrified, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, his wife didn't die, though, right?
Oh yeah, she died later too.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
She died too, oh, later Later because she does the
same thing, and so, first ofall, this is one that.
I have tried to build into-.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Is that like meet your tithe, or else?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well it is.
I try to build this into everyfinancial stewardship.
Sermon series that I've everpreached on.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So no, I have not, but this is one of those stories
.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It might work.
Maybe we should try it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I don't know, but what strikes me about this
passage is and in the New LivingTranslation it really comes out
in that way it's not simplythat they sold this property and
didn't give all of it for God'swork, it's that they said they
were doing that but then, like,tried to lie to God.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
See, they should have just worked in like the word
maybe or might, like I mightgive it all.
You know, maybe I'm going tosell everything and give it.
You know, like just work in aword that like leaves a little
wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah Well, ananias didn't leave himself any wiggle
room, and at least I like it'snot that the apostles said you
will die and he died.
It was almost like he was socaught in his lie that it just
so overwhelmed him, his heartgave out.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, could we just say he had a heart attack,
because I don't want to thinkabout God striking somebody.
I mean I shouldn't laugh.
That's even horrible.
I'm laughing, that's a littledark.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Well, it just is.
There are some parts ofscripture that are just kind of
heavy and hard and confusing.
And no, I don't think it isthat if you sell property and
only give 70% to God and keep30% to yourself, that you know
some rare disease is going tocome and get you immediately or
in the next months.
(09:12):
I don't think this is, but Ithink it is about we got to that
God is concerned about thetruth.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And that we've got to be real with God and real with,
and part of being real with Godis being real with other people
.
Right or living into our wordLiving into our word, living
into what we say.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
we're going to do and if we don't, maybe just like
being honest about it, like, hey, I know we said we're going to
give it all, but we kind ofreconsidered, had a chit chat,
wifey's on board, we're going tokeep 20%.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, you know, you bet.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I mean, come to terms with what your plans are, yeah.
Or it reminds me of Jesus whenhe says anyone who puts their
hands to the plow and turnsaround like looks back isn't fit
for the kingdom of heaven, andit's.
You know.
Don't say you're all in andgoing to do this and live this
way and walk this way, butreally you're not.
You're like if it's convenientfor me, but if it's not, I'm
going to, you know maybe that'smore the Well I think it is.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean, or Lot's wife who turns back and becomes a
pillar of salt, that it's sortof like if you're going forward,
then go, yeah, and if not, yeah, no, looking back so well you
got another one for us.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Oh, I got some good ones.
I got some good ones.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Okay, all right, hold it.
Which one are you going to now?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I'm going to my my.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Ezekiel.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
No, I'm doing the yes , ezekiel.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
My human poop campfire one.
It's good, it's good stuff,right?
So I'm just going to go rightinto this scripture, ezekiel 4,
12.
Prepare and eat this food asyou would barley cakes while all
the people are watching.
Bake it over a fire using humanpoop and then eat the bread.
And you know, the first thing Ithought about with this is that
(10:53):
I when do you find this stuff,mo, in the Bible.
It's the word of God professed.
And the first thing I thoughtabout was you know, when I was
younger, if I cussed, I got abar of soap in my mouth and I
thought, you know, what mighthave really helped is if my mom
made me eat a dung cake.
You know, I mean, if there waspoop cake, I would have
(11:15):
definitely, maybe never, everdone that again.
So I don't know there's.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Mo's parenting tip for the day my parenting tip
yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So as I kind of looked into this a little deeper
, like what is the purpose ofthis?
It doesn't even make sense.
So Ezekiel was a youngcontemporary of Jeremiah right,
and so Jeremiah was ministeringto those in Judah, and Ezekiel
he was prophesying to thosewho'd already been taken down to
exile in Babylon after thedefeat of 597.
And so it was very customary inthe East for pagans, those who
(11:50):
worshiped many gods, to cooktheir food with human poop, I
guess it was a good fuel source.
I mean you can try that at home,or if you're doing a campfire,
you know you just actually, yes,please leave a comment If you
decide to do this.
Let us know if it works asreally good fuel.
I'm intrigued, but I'll let youguys do that and let us know.
(12:12):
But anyway, sorry, I digress.
So yeah, so this also violatestheir laws of purity, and so
Ezekiel, being, you know, apriest at that time, he actually
begged God, please don't makeme do this, right, I mean,
partially probably didn't wantto eat it, but also because it's
against their laws of purity,and so it really would have
(12:34):
painted a picture for the peopleof that time of ruin.
That's what it would have said.
It would have been a symbol tothe people that you are so
spiritually unclean I'm makingmy prophet, who is speaking out
my truth eat poop and so, yeah,pretty serious stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, and throughout the prophets, they often used
dramatic actions to get people'sattention.
I mean when Hosea was orderedby God to marry a prostitute,
when Jeremiah I think it wasJeremiah walked through with the
oxen yoke on his shoulders andsaid you're going to be yoked
like this.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Was it Isaiah who was naked for like 40 days or
something?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I don't remember that one.
But I mean they would use.
They didn't have the internetback then, so you would do
dramatic actions to grabpeople's attention, to get a
message out.
So you did do that.
So some of these sort ofover-the-top things that the
prophets did, it was becausethey were trying to bring it was
(13:36):
shock therapy.
That's a great way to put it.
It was shock therapy, yeah, andfor them that would have been
shock therapy Us it just soundsdisgusting.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It would have been disgusting.
Come on yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Something other than that.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Someone else eat it.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well and yeah, so these sort of strange stories
are there in scripture too.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You know, when we talked before this, I said, Mo,
I was wrestling with this one togo.
What sort of tone are we goingto have?
Because some of this, you knowhaving to, you know cook
something over a dung fire is,you know you can be kind of
playful with that and you knowwe can laugh at of playful with
that and you know we can laughat that.
Some of the others of these arevery serious and I want to just
(14:23):
name that.
When we were talking aboutcreepy or scary or disturbing
ones, I, just when we talkedabout addressing this, I just
thought of a book that Iremember reading some in years
ago at seminary, by PhyllisTribble, entitled Texts of
Terror.
She used this phrase and it wasscriptures where women
(14:47):
experienced violence in theirlives and she spent some time
exegeting those scriptures andwrestling through the story of
Hagar who Abraham uses hisconcubine to have Ishmael and
then sent her into thewilderness.
And terrible, certainly the rapeof Tamar and some of these
(15:13):
other texts of terror.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, they're hard to sit with.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
They're hard to read, they're hard to reflect on,
they're hard to name.
But as I was just reflecting onthat and doing a little
research online, I ran upon, orcame upon, a woman who had
written about Phyllis Tribble'sbook and I just was so moved by
some of the words that she said.
(15:36):
So this isn't scripture, thisis a woman's reflection on it,
hannah Godini, and she wrote ina blog post, a website called
the Junia Project, about one ofthe apostles in the New
Testament who's female, junia.
(15:57):
But here's what she wrote aboutthese scriptures, the texts of
terror, she said.
These horrific stories, spokenaloud as sacred text, invite
broken and abused people to be apart of the narrative.
The fact that these womenoccupy the same place in the
space in the Bible as therenowned patriarchs reminds me
(16:18):
that our God invites the brokento be an essential element in
the redemptive narrative anddemands that they be remembered
and honored.
Today, we have largely let goof the Israelites' oral
traditions.
However, these narratives mustnot be forgotten, lest we forget
and repeat the mistakes of the.
(16:43):
Loved how she said that and thatthese stories are named and
that some of these stories ofbrokenness, of evil, of violence
towards an individual or agroup of people, recognizing
that even in the darkest days,in the worst things, God hasn't
given up on his world and thatis our sin, seeing writ large
(17:09):
and yet that will still be partof the story of what God will
redeem in the end.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've always loved the OldTestament because I think it has
spoken into brokenness, that,whether you're male or female,
that you've experienced, and itallows us to go okay.
So I see myself in thescripture and when you can see
(17:35):
that, then the scripture offersme something and that's the
wisdom of God and that's thebeauty of it is like, where are
you, god, in this?
And you can see it through someof the stories and how they
play out, and just the story ofwhat God is doing, that big
redemption picture making allthings new, what is broken
(17:56):
making whole, showing us thatscars are on resurrected bodies,
like we see on Christ.
Right, it's a part of our story, it's what it means to be human
.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, there is an earthiness to the Old Testament
that didn't sort of getsanitized out all of the
brokenness or the messiness, andI also find the Old Testament
so powerful in that way and thefigures in the Old Testament.
I often sort of see my lifethrough boy.
(18:24):
This is a Jonah moment whereI'm wanting to run away because
I'm scared of what I have toface.
Or this is a Jeremiah momentwhere I'm going to do an act of
hope but I'm not feeling veryhopeful and those Old Testament
figures and individuals can beso powerful and we can see
(18:45):
ourselves in their stories andin the goodness of them and in
the brokenness of their stories.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, like you know, I justthink of Esther too and like,
created for a time such as this,like every position, we're in
the power we have in thatposition, even if you're
checking someone out and you'rea clerk at a store, like you
have the power to smile atsomeone that day, you have the
power to be loving, you have thepower to meet them with.
(19:10):
You know kindness, even ifthey're not acting.
You know very kind to you andso you know how that impacts the
world.
And what are we doing with whatwe have?
And, yeah, letting God,surrendering to God right in and
through it all.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, well, I mean, you just bring up Esther and
wasn't on mine here, but herewas this woman who, literally,
the Jewish people were, at thispoint of, about to be
genocidally wiped out, and shewas in a position to stop that
from happening, and she goes.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I don't have the power To attempt stopping it
because she could have died.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, she could have she risked her life to try to be
able to do that and thatclassic line for such a time as
this, you may be in this placeand that all of us, for such a
time as this, may be in placeswhere God wants to use us in an
important way.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
And we should never minimize the moments or the
gifts or the opportunities thatwe have before us.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Absolutely, and you know what this is.
What it's about.
It's about, I think, withintegrity as pastors, as fellow
Christians, coming to thescripture and saying you know
what this is uncomfortable, thisis weird, this is goofy, right,
but yet we're going to continuethe work of unpacking it, of
seeing ourselves in thesestories, of understanding.
How are you speaking to ustoday, god?
(20:32):
What is your spirit saying tous?
Because it is moving and livingand breathing the scripture,
and so I love that we're doingthis and I love that you're all
joining us.
So, those who are watching usor those who are listening,
thank you for being a part ofthis, and we'd love to hear some
of the scriptures that youthink are maybe disturbing or
(20:54):
creepy or funny or weird.
Let's have a conversation aboutthat and drop your questions as
well on unpackingtruthscom.
We'd love to answer those.
We always enjoy that too.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Unless they're too hard, then I'll just have my do
them.
Oh, great then.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I'll just have my do them, oh great, you know, and
I'll just make them funny.
So I don't know, you know it'sat your own risk.
So all right, take care.
And thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Our bodies are buried inbrokenness, but they will be
raised in glory.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried as naturalhuman bodies, but they will be
raised as spiritual bodies, andso exactly what that is like.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
It's a spiritual body .
You get to walk through walls.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
You get to walk through walls, yeah, but you
still get to eat food.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's a win.
It's a win.
Walls, don't stop you.
Food still tastes good.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm in.
Who cares if we're married?
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Welcome everyone to our next episode of Unpacking
Truths, where we are going totake a few minutes to unpack
some creepy, scary, disturbingBible verses and Bible stories.
So we are going to come at thisboth in a serious way with some
of them and maybe a playful waywith some of the others.
(00:21):
So you may guess who's going tocome at them, which way by,
maybe, if you've gotten to knowus already.
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'mPastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Pastor Mo, I am going to ask you to be the first one
up.
Which one do you want to startwith?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, let's unpack.
What is more fun than one of myfavorite stories, bible stories
that I read to my children whenthey were young?
It comes out of 2 Kings 2.
It is the one where Elisha hasthe two bears come out and maul
some kids.
So I'm just going to dive intothis scripture reading before
(01:12):
you're all too disturbed, butactually let me give a little
bit of a background of what'sgoing on during that time.
So what had happened was they?
You know, elisha is walking toBethel and Bethel is known for
its idol worship.
It is a people that havestepped away from God and the
(01:32):
king Jeroboam I, he actuallyinstilled golden calf worship as
a way to deter the people fromworshiping the one true God.
Okay, and Elisha?
It may sound a lot like Elijah,and that's because Elisha was
the disciple of Elijah and, ifyou want to think of this, so
(01:54):
Elijah was actually like he's,like the Obi-Wan of prophets.
Yes, so we can liken Elisha tolike Luke, right.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
And so here he is.
He's going into Bethel, and letme go ahead and read.
So this comes out of 2 Kings 2,23-24.
Elisha left Jericho and went upto Bethel.
As he was walking along theroad, a group of boys from the
town began mocking and makingfun of him.
Go away, baldy, they chanted,go away, baldy.
(02:24):
Elisha turned around and lookedat them and he cursed them in
the name of the Lord.
Then two bears came out of thewoods and mauled 42 of them.
Now some actually translationssay she bears, so they're female
bears.
Because you know what?
You don't mess with a mama bear.
You better not play or youcould get mauled.
(02:47):
That's all the message to thechildren.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
So what do you make of that scary, creepy, weird
story Mo?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
You know there are severe and immediate
consequences if you want to makefun of, if you call someone
bald, no, Don't mock bald people, bad things happen.
If you want to mock a prophet ofthe Lord, be prepared to be
mauled.
No, yeah.
So what kind of helped me feela little bit better, right, as I
(03:16):
dived into?
I can't just present this toyou and be like, and there you
go, but I looked into this alittle bit and what made me feel
a little better is the Hebrewword for these young boys, right
, or often children.
Sometimes in some translationsit's na'arim, which actually
means young men.
So I don't this is stillhorrible, but it made me feel a
(03:38):
little better to think theseguys are maybe in their twenties
rather than like littlechildren.
These guys are maybe in their20s, rather than like little
children.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
So I'm not saying it's still great, but yeah, yeah
, you know, and Mo, this is thereminder that there are accounts
in scriptures that sometimesare weird or disturbing.
We don't know what to really dowith them.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
You know, sometimes there may be things that are
lost on us, that are justconfusing to us trying to look
back over this much time Because, yeah, not a lot of morals or
just sort of a scary sense ofhow to take an account like that
.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Is this one you read to your kids too?
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Yeah, oh, of course no, I jumped over this one, Mo
yeah, and the children's Biblethat we give out at baptisms
does not include this story.
Let me tell you a story ofElisha.
This is not in there, no Welloh, go ahead.
No.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I was going to say there is some significance too
with the 42, because I was kindof like, why 42?
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
And only 42 of them are mauled.
Which I learned as I readdeeper into it is that there
were a lot more young men and 42of them sadly got taken down.
But so 42 does represent withinscripture.
Several times in scripture itmeans a time of testing,
judgment and punishment.
(05:00):
So we see in the Israel'swilderness wandering, the
Israelites encamped in 42different places during their
40-year journey.
And then it was 42 months oftribulation, we see in
Revelation 11.
And it's a significant period.
Like I said, tribulation,persecution, it's an opposition
(05:20):
to God's people by evil forces.
And so what it's saying is likethere's a bigger understanding
here that when you know when youmock the ways of God, when you
mock God's prophetic word orGod's guidance in your life
right and turn from ithardheartedly, like there's
consequences, there's, you know,severity in your life that
(05:43):
could come like in the form oftwo she bears mauling you.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I mean, I have yet to see that, but you know hey I
first for everything why I carrybear spray when I am up at
glacier national park.
So that might be wise it mightbe, and and not because I mock
profits yeah, and don't callanyone baldy no, ever.
Well, we did not share witheach other in detail.
We sort of named this.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So it's going to be fine.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
One of the ones that I chose also has a death theme
to it.
We're going dark, you guys yeahwe are dark this week, but it is
from the New Testament, fromthe book of Acts, the fifth
chapter, ananias and Sapphira.
And let me just read this.
But there was a certain mannamed Ananias who, with his wife
(06:30):
Sapphira, sold some property.
He brought part of the money tothe apostles, claiming it was
the full amount.
With his wife's consent, hekept the rest.
Then Peter said Ananias, whyhave you let Satan fill your
heart?
You lied to the Holy Spirit andyou kept some of the money for
(06:50):
yourself.
The property was yours to sellor not sell as you wished.
And after selling it, the moneywas yours, was also yours to
give away.
How could you do a thing likethis?
You weren't lying to us, but toGod.
As soon as Ananias heard thesewords, he fell to the floor and
died.
Oh, that's rough.
Everyone who heard about it,everyone who heard about it, was
(07:14):
terrified, no doubt.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah, his wife didn't die, though, right?
Oh yeah, she died later too.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
She died too, oh, later Later because she does the
same thing, and so, first ofall, this is one that.
I have tried to build into-.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Is that like meet your tithe, or else?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well it is.
I try to build this into everyfinancial stewardship.
Sermon series that I've everpreached on.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So no, I have not, but this is one of those stories
.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
It might work.
Maybe we should try it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I don't know, but what strikes me about this
passage is and in the New LivingTranslation it really comes out
in that way it's not simplythat they sold this property and
didn't give all of it for God'swork, it's that they said they
were doing that but then, like,tried to lie to God.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
See, they should have just worked in like the word
maybe or might, like I mightgive it all.
You know, maybe I'm going tosell everything and give it.
You know, like just work in aword that like leaves a little
wiggle room.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah Well, ananias didn't leave himself any wiggle
room, and at least I like it'snot that the apostles said you
will die and he died.
It was almost like he was socaught in his lie that it just
so overwhelmed him, his heartgave out.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, could we just say he had a heart attack,
because I don't want to thinkabout God striking somebody.
I mean I shouldn't laugh.
That's even horrible.
I'm laughing, that's a littledark.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Well, it just is.
There are some parts ofscripture that are just kind of
heavy and hard and confusing.
And no, I don't think it isthat if you sell property and
only give 70% to God and keep30% to yourself, that you know
some rare disease is going tocome and get you immediately or
in the next months.
(09:12):
I don't think this is, but Ithink it is about we got to that
God is concerned about thetruth.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And that we've got to be real with God and real with,
and part of being real with Godis being real with other people
.
Right or living into our wordLiving into our word, living
into what we say.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
we're going to do and if we don't, maybe just like
being honest about it, like, hey, I know we said we're going to
give it all, but we kind ofreconsidered, had a chit chat,
wifey's on board, we're going tokeep 20%.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, you know, you bet.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I mean, come to terms with what your plans are, yeah.
Or it reminds me of Jesus whenhe says anyone who puts their
hands to the plow and turnsaround like looks back isn't fit
for the kingdom of heaven, andit's.
You know.
Don't say you're all in andgoing to do this and live this
way and walk this way, butreally you're not.
You're like if it's convenientfor me, but if it's not, I'm
going to, you know maybe that'smore the Well I think it is.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
I mean, or Lot's wife who turns back and becomes a
pillar of salt, that it's sortof like if you're going forward,
then go, yeah, and if not, yeah, no, looking back so well you
got another one for us.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Oh, I got some good ones.
I got some good ones.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Okay, all right, hold it.
Which one are you going to now?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I'm going to my my.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Ezekiel.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
No, I'm doing the yes , ezekiel.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
My human poop campfire one.
It's good, it's good stuff,right?
So I'm just going to go rightinto this scripture, ezekiel 4,
12.
Prepare and eat this food asyou would barley cakes while all
the people are watching.
Bake it over a fire using humanpoop and then eat the bread.
And you know, the first thing Ithought about with this is that
(10:53):
I when do you find this stuff,mo, in the Bible.
It's the word of God professed.
And the first thing I thoughtabout was you know, when I was
younger, if I cussed, I got abar of soap in my mouth and I
thought, you know, what mighthave really helped is if my mom
made me eat a dung cake.
You know, I mean, if there waspoop cake, I would have
(11:15):
definitely, maybe never, everdone that again.
So I don't know there's.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Mo's parenting tip for the day my parenting tip
yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So as I kind of looked into this a little deeper
, like what is the purpose ofthis?
It doesn't even make sense.
So Ezekiel was a youngcontemporary of Jeremiah right,
and so Jeremiah was ministeringto those in Judah, and Ezekiel
he was prophesying to thosewho'd already been taken down to
exile in Babylon after thedefeat of 597.
And so it was very customary inthe East for pagans, those who
(11:50):
worshiped many gods, to cooktheir food with human poop, I
guess it was a good fuel source.
I mean you can try that at home,or if you're doing a campfire,
you know you just actually, yes,please leave a comment If you
decide to do this.
Let us know if it works asreally good fuel.
I'm intrigued, but I'll let youguys do that and let us know.
(12:12):
But anyway, sorry, I digress.
So yeah, so this also violatestheir laws of purity, and so
Ezekiel, being, you know, apriest at that time, he actually
begged God, please don't makeme do this, right, I mean,
partially probably didn't wantto eat it, but also because it's
against their laws of purity,and so it really would have
(12:34):
painted a picture for the peopleof that time of ruin.
That's what it would have said.
It would have been a symbol tothe people that you are so
spiritually unclean I'm makingmy prophet, who is speaking out
my truth eat poop and so, yeah,pretty serious stuff.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Well, and throughout the prophets, they often used
dramatic actions to get people'sattention.
I mean when Hosea was orderedby God to marry a prostitute,
when Jeremiah I think it wasJeremiah walked through with the
oxen yoke on his shoulders andsaid you're going to be yoked
like this.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Was it Isaiah who was naked for like 40 days or
something?
Speaker 1 (13:15):
I don't remember that one.
But I mean they would use.
They didn't have the internetback then, so you would do
dramatic actions to grabpeople's attention, to get a
message out.
So you did do that.
So some of these sort ofover-the-top things that the
prophets did, it was becausethey were trying to bring it was
(13:36):
shock therapy.
That's a great way to put it.
It was shock therapy, yeah, andfor them that would have been
shock therapy Us it just soundsdisgusting.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
It would have been disgusting.
Come on yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Something other than that.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Someone else eat it.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Well and yeah, so these sort of strange stories
are there in scripture too.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You know, when we talked before this, I said, Mo,
I was wrestling with this one togo.
What sort of tone are we goingto have?
Because some of this, you knowhaving to, you know cook
something over a dung fire is,you know you can be kind of
playful with that and you knowwe can laugh at of playful with
that and you know we can laughat that.
Some of the others of these arevery serious and I want to just
(14:23):
name that.
When we were talking aboutcreepy or scary or disturbing
ones, I, just when we talkedabout addressing this, I just
thought of a book that Iremember reading some in years
ago at seminary, by PhyllisTribble, entitled Texts of
Terror.
She used this phrase and it wasscriptures where women
(14:47):
experienced violence in theirlives and she spent some time
exegeting those scriptures andwrestling through the story of
Hagar who Abraham uses hisconcubine to have Ishmael and
then sent her into thewilderness.
And terrible, certainly the rapeof Tamar and some of these
(15:13):
other texts of terror.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, they're hard to sit with.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
They're hard to read, they're hard to reflect on,
they're hard to name.
But as I was just reflecting onthat and doing a little
research online, I ran upon, orcame upon, a woman who had
written about Phyllis Tribble'sbook and I just was so moved by
some of the words that she said.
(15:36):
So this isn't scripture, thisis a woman's reflection on it,
hannah Godini, and she wrote ina blog post, a website called
the Junia Project, about one ofthe apostles in the New
Testament who's female, junia.
(15:57):
But here's what she wrote aboutthese scriptures, the texts of
terror, she said.
These horrific stories, spokenaloud as sacred text, invite
broken and abused people to be apart of the narrative.
The fact that these womenoccupy the same place in the
space in the Bible as therenowned patriarchs reminds me
(16:18):
that our God invites the brokento be an essential element in
the redemptive narrative anddemands that they be remembered
and honored.
Today, we have largely let goof the Israelites' oral
traditions.
However, these narratives mustnot be forgotten, lest we forget
and repeat the mistakes of the.
(16:43):
Loved how she said that and thatthese stories are named and
that some of these stories ofbrokenness, of evil, of violence
towards an individual or agroup of people, recognizing
that even in the darkest days,in the worst things, God hasn't
given up on his world and thatis our sin, seeing writ large
(17:09):
and yet that will still be partof the story of what God will
redeem in the end.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've always loved the OldTestament because I think it has
spoken into brokenness, that,whether you're male or female,
that you've experienced, and itallows us to go okay.
So I see myself in thescripture and when you can see
(17:35):
that, then the scripture offersme something and that's the
wisdom of God and that's thebeauty of it is like, where are
you, god, in this?
And you can see it through someof the stories and how they
play out, and just the story ofwhat God is doing, that big
redemption picture making allthings new, what is broken
(17:56):
making whole, showing us thatscars are on resurrected bodies,
like we see on Christ.
Right, it's a part of our story, it's what it means to be human
.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, there is an earthiness to the Old Testament
that didn't sort of getsanitized out all of the
brokenness or the messiness, andI also find the Old Testament
so powerful in that way and thefigures in the Old Testament.
I often sort of see my lifethrough boy.
(18:24):
This is a Jonah moment whereI'm wanting to run away because
I'm scared of what I have toface.
Or this is a Jeremiah momentwhere I'm going to do an act of
hope but I'm not feeling veryhopeful and those Old Testament
figures and individuals can beso powerful and we can see
(18:45):
ourselves in their stories andin the goodness of them and in
the brokenness of their stories.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And, like you know, I justthink of Esther too and like,
created for a time such as this,like every position, we're in
the power we have in thatposition, even if you're
checking someone out and you'rea clerk at a store, like you
have the power to smile atsomeone that day, you have the
power to be loving, you have thepower to meet them with.
(19:10):
You know kindness, even ifthey're not acting.
You know very kind to you andso you know how that impacts the
world.
And what are we doing with whatwe have?
And, yeah, letting God,surrendering to God right in and
through it all.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, well, I mean, you just bring up Esther and
wasn't on mine here, but herewas this woman who, literally,
the Jewish people were, at thispoint of, about to be
genocidally wiped out, and shewas in a position to stop that
from happening, and she goes.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I don't have the power To attempt stopping it
because she could have died.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh, she could have she risked her life to try to be
able to do that and thatclassic line for such a time as
this, you may be in this placeand that all of us, for such a
time as this, may be in placeswhere God wants to use us in an
important way.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
And we should never minimize the moments or the
gifts or the opportunities thatwe have before us.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Absolutely, and you know what this is.
What it's about.
It's about, I think, withintegrity as pastors, as fellow
Christians, coming to thescripture and saying you know
what this is uncomfortable, thisis weird, this is goofy, right,
but yet we're going to continuethe work of unpacking it, of
seeing ourselves in thesestories, of understanding.
How are you speaking to ustoday, god?
(20:32):
What is your spirit saying tous?
Because it is moving and livingand breathing the scripture,
and so I love that we're doingthis and I love that you're all
joining us.
So, those who are watching usor those who are listening,
thank you for being a part ofthis, and we'd love to hear some
of the scriptures that youthink are maybe disturbing or
(20:54):
creepy or funny or weird.
Let's have a conversation aboutthat and drop your questions as
well on unpackingtruthscom.
We'd love to answer those.
We always enjoy that too.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Unless they're too hard, then I'll just have my do
them.
Oh, great then.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I'll just have my do them, oh great, you know, and
I'll just make them funny.
So I don't know, you know it'sat your own risk.
So all right, take care.
And thanks for joining us.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Our bodies are buried inbrokenness, but they will be
raised in glory.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried in weakness,but they will be raised in
strength.
They are buried as naturalhuman bodies, but they will be
raised as spiritual bodies, andso exactly what that is like.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
It's a spiritual body .
You get to walk through walls.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
You get to walk through walls, yeah, but you
still get to eat food.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
It's a win.
It's a win.
Walls, don't stop you.
Food still tastes good.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I'm in.
Who cares if we're married?
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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