October 29, 2024 • 22 mins
Can Christians celebrate Halloween without compromising their faith? Join us as Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo share their childhood Halloween memories, from the excitement of costumes to the thrill of trick-or-treating. We explore Halloween's origins, delving into its ancient Celtic roots in the festival of Samhain and its transformation when All Saints Day was moved to November 1st to Christianize the pagan celebration. Discover how Irish immigrants brought these traditions to America, where they were met with resistance by Puritan settlers. Our discussion navigates the complex identity of Halloween as both a secular festivity and a religious observance, encouraging reflection on its themes of life, death, and the spiritual world.
We also tackle the fascination with fear through the lens of horror movies that captivated us as kids. Films like "It" and "The Blob" evoke powerful emotional responses, reminding us how entertainment can linger in our psyche. While recognizing the fun and community spirit of Halloween, we emphasize the need to be mindful of how our media consumption affects us and those around us. Finding the balance between enjoying the spooky season and respecting others' sentiments aligns closely with teachings on selflessness and caring for our community. Tune in for a candid discussion on embracing Halloween's lighter side while respecting its deeper implications.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Unpacking Truths,
where we are going to tackle thetimely topic of should
Christians celebrate Halloween?
And since we're talking,Halloween, Pastor Mo, did you
bring me any?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
candy today?
Whoa no, but I brought you acute little pumpkin right here,
oh okay, well, we have a prop.
That helps.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That's a start.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We are festive here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
We are festive here.
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We talked before, but I didn't really hear from you.
Is there a favorite costume youhad as a child or a favorite
thing?
Oh, how long did you trick ortreat Pastor Mo?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, I trick or treated with my kids for a long
time and I used to do the wholething where you're like, oh, I
have to check that candy, and ofcourse I only checked the
really good chocolate ones,Smart smart mom.
But they caught on to me prettyeasily.
Yeah, they did and then.
So I had to start bringing myown bag and pretending I was
collecting for the sick kid athome.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Every year there was a sick kid at home.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I just tried to you know leverage with my kids to
say, hey, my protective presenceshould earn some sort of reward
.
Like the Heath Bars or theThree Musketeers is what.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I wanted.
They're like we're 16, Dad,we're fine.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You don't have to come with us.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So today, talking about Halloween, mo, we thought
it would probably be best tostart with just a little history
of where it came from.
Do you want to just start intothat?
Absolutely, yeah, so it is anancient Celtic celebration.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It's like a New Year's Celtic or Celtic.
It's Celtic, it's I mean it'slike the Boston Celtics.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
They'll say it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
But it's.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Celtic the preferable pronunciation.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I guess in Gaelic.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So, yes, it's about twenty five hundred years old,
right Is what?
And some historical stuff hascome up, that archaeological
evidence it could be even older,like this tradition, right?
And so it's a New Year'scelebration of the harvest is
ending, winter's coming, so it'slike from life to death, and
it's a time when Halloween comesout of this and it came to
(02:19):
America because of the Irishimmigrants, and so, yeah, I know
You're welcome the fun, thefestivities, chocolate and
costumes, all because the Irishthere, you go.
You're welcome, but it's a timewhen they thought that because
it represented new birth, rightthat the veil was thin.
(02:41):
And so the spirit world, betweenthis world and the spirit world
, yeah, the spirit world andthis world, and so it was a time
when our ancestors and thosewho've gone before but also
different spirits andsupernatural would linger in the
on the earth didn't know thatthey weren't also spirits,
(03:03):
because they were afraid theywould be taken and or, you know,
trickery would be played onthem and stuff like that.
And so they did a lot of coolthings, like we carve pumpkins.
Today they carve turnips, youknow, they light candles, and
candles were lit to actuallyguide the spirits back to their
realm.
So lots of cool, different, funthings.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, Cool, fun.
But on the other way of framingit you could say they were
pagan things.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I mean, yeah, they were pagan, definitely pagan.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And then it was in like the seventh century when
one of the popes moved AllSaints Day from May, I think it
was, back to November 1st tosort of try and Christianize
this sort of pagan festival thathad been going on to tie it to
All Saints, and so Halloween wasHallows' Eve.
(03:54):
All Hallows' Eve, the nightbefore All Saints' Day, which
was then celebrated in thechurch, is remembering those
saints who had gone before us.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, because this tradition, samhain, was
celebrated the 31st to the 1stof November often, and there is
some actually church fathersthat wrote about celebrating the
saints in the 4th century aswell.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But yeah, I was just saying the 7th century is when
it got moved.
But yes, so yeah, that was aChristian festival that was
tried to be superimposed and, asyou said, sort of usurping the
pagan aspects to try and make ita little more palatable,
because they didn't feel theycould get rid of it because it
was too firmly entrenched in theculture.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So they said, well, let's celebrating the reality
that those who have died arestill somehow in connection with
us in communion, right?
So there's like that element toit, Still a lot of pagan
elements too.
But so as Christians we're like, hey, wait, this resonates with
what we believe as well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
The communion of saints.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, we're in the communion of saints that there
is life after death and we arein a weird way in communion with
them in Christ and theyintercede on our behalf and all
that kind of good stuff.
So they're like, hey, we'lltake a little bit of this and
we'll leave a little bit of that.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, so it really has this sort of dual aspect.
It's sort of the ongoing, justsort of secular festival of
Hallow's Eve or Halloween andthen this All Saints Day that
follows, and so it's sort of intension with those in some ways,
or tension or justcomplimentary, depending on how
(05:40):
you want to frame it.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Absolutely.
And it wasn't until the Irishimmigrants kind of came to
America that wave that theystarted celebrating Halloween.
They did because before that itwas definitely considered like
a no-no.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah and considered a no-no because of the connection
to.
Puritanism and the connectionto spirits and the occult and
the devil, and some of thoseaspects that it was frowned upon
by the initial pilgrims cominghere.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, because it was a time of divination too, like
they would, you know, they'dread tarot cards and they'd, you
know, read poems and all thattype of stuff as well.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, so for me, when I think about Halloween today,
there are a number of thingsthat I think are just fine about
it and fun about it.
I mean, some of the costumesthat people come up with are so
creative and silly and playful,sometimes social commentary,
sometimes just fun.
(06:39):
I think that's cool.
I think you know this is a timewhen homes are getting a little
more drab and so a littledecoration can be fun, nothing
like some dead bodies in yourfront yard.
Well, I wasn't going to thatpart of the decoration, but for
me, to me, one of the thingsthat I've always liked and
appreciated about Halloween wasthe simple fact that it was one
(07:02):
time where people in aneighborhood got out of their
homes and actually visited theirneighbors.
I mean we so often live incommunities out here where
people just they drive in theircar, they have the garage door
go up, they pull in, they maytalk to a neighbor on one side
or the other, but we don't havea lot of neighborly connection.
And this is the one event inthe year where people are out
(07:26):
going and knocking on eachother's doors.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, I love that.
It's not like awkward, it'slike everyone's doing it.
Yeah, exactly, and so youactually get to meet neighbors
and connect with neighbors andknow which ones give the bad
candy and which ones give theawesome candy.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, of course every kid rates that, but for me I
mean and even from a Christianperspective that whole thing
where Jesus says love yourneighbors yourself.
How do we love our neighbor ifwe don't even know who our
neighbors are?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And so for me.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I love that part of Halloween and so I love going
out with my kids andtrick-or-treating not only
because then I get a little ofthe candy, but it was a chance
to just meet neighbors andconnect.
So I love that community aspectof Halloween and would hate to
lose that.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
No absolutely, and you and I were talking earlier
kind of about how Paul spokeinto eating the meat that was,
or the animals that weresacrificed right on the altars,
and you know some people thoughtyou shouldn't, some thought you
should.
Or if it was, on what was it?
The meat that was sacrificed?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, sacrificed to idols.
And yeah, Paul's point wasShould you eat it, should you
not?
He said we know idols arenothing Right, so we can eat it
because everything is the Lord's.
I mean, he says in 1Corinthians 8 and in chapter 10,
he talks about this.
And so he says it isn't aproblem because they're not real
(08:51):
.
He said but there are otherpeople whose consciences may be
troubled by the fact that holdit, if you're doing that in that
temple or you're doing it andthey knew that you could cause
them to stumble.
And so, even if you have thefreedom to do it, you can't just
say, well, I'm free to do it,so whatever we need to out of
(09:12):
love, also think hold it, are myactions, my freedom going to
cause other people to stumble?
And so to me the tie-in withHalloween becomes if I'm free to
do some of this stuff, but ifI'm causing someone else to
think, oh, all that occult stuffis okay and there's no big
problem with any aspects of eviland that.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well then, we may need to rethink some of it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right, because I think it comes back to like you
know, I love that scripturebecause it comes back to how are
you personally viewing it right?
Like?
Are you viewing it like, oh, itdoesn't matter, this is nothing
to me, this meat is nothing,you know?
Like it doesn't matter, this isnothing.
They're dressing as witches, orthey're dressing as fairies, or
(10:06):
they're dressing as princesses.
Whatever it is, it has nomeaning in your heart.
And there were a lot of people,a lot of African-Americans,
predominantly from a SouthernBaptist type background, and
they did not celebrate Halloween.
It was absolutely not okay andI actually brought some of the
scripture and readings as to why.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So why do some people say yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
because we had to sit down.
And had to sit down andactually like hash through this,
because maybe my perspective orsome other people's perspective
in the church was who cares?
Like we're just having fun,like this is a—you know?
Like we have trees at Christmasthat came from, you know, a
holiday that was consideredpagan, so it's—yeah.
(10:49):
So some of them were, forinstance, like rejecting the
occult or things that arewitchcraft, right, and so that
comes out of Deuteronomy 18, 10,that says Let no one be found
among you who sacrifices theirsons and daughters in the fire,
who practice divination orsorcery, interpret omens, engage
in witchcraft or cast spells,or who is a median or spiritist
(11:13):
or who consults with the dead.
And so this day does come outof sowin, right.
So it comes out of a traditionwhere there was this idea of
connecting with the dead,talking with the dead, and so
the and with the whole idea ofwitches and stuff like that,
they're just like.
I want nothing attached tosomething that even derived from
(11:34):
that.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, what was one of the other reasons they had?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, so some of the other reasons were avoiding
works of darkness.
That was from Ephesians 5.11.
Have nothing to do with thefruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them.
And Halloween was seen as atime that kind of like glorified
darkness, like looking at thescary and the gloom and the you
know and death, and not in a wayof like the saints, but in a
(12:01):
more gory way, I guess.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You bet and Mo on that there's someone close in my
life who really came toawakening in their faith in
Christ at an event that happenedto be on Halloween, oh really.
And so for them that was thatsense of turning from darkness
to light, and so for them, thatsense of Halloween being
(12:24):
something that I don't want tohave anything to do with, it
became that very visiblerepresentation of I'm turning to
the light of Christ and I'm notgetting caught in the works of
the world, and so for themthere's very much that sense
that Halloween represents, allthat sort of darkness.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Were you out evangelizing on Halloween.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
No, that was not me that helped this person to.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Were you a preacher going door to door?
I was not.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Trick or treat.
You've been tricked.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Here's the gospel.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But Mo, there is we talked about it earlier One of
my silly costumes as an adult.
I went to a party and I foundthis really purple satiny suit
at Goodwill that I got and Ibrought a briefcase and I went
(13:17):
as a used Bible salesman to thisyeah, I was already a pastor.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's where all our Bibles went.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Exactly.
No, this was 30 years ago.
So yeah, I mean there can bethe playful side, but some
people are very focused on thereality of darkness that is
sometimes connected with thisand that is why I'm sure, at
that church plant for my friend,that sense of I don't want to
be associated with those things.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Right, and I mean as Christians.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent scripture that talks
about focusing, keeping our eyesfixed on Christ.
Seek first the kingdom of God,like Philippians 4, 8, even.
You know, brothers and sisters,whatever's true, noble, right,
pure, lovely, admirable, ifanything is excellent and
praiseworthy, think of suchthings.
(14:04):
Right, like we are a peoplethat are supposed to hyper-focus
ourselves on things that aregood and of the light, because
we do know that what we see,what we take in it, affects us
right.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Our psyche Garbage in , garbage out.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And we were just talking earlier about.
Tell us some of what you kindof researched about how people
are attracted to horror andwhere that kind of comes out of.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I was looking this up in context of this podcast and
there was some stuff from theHarvard Business Review and John
Hopkins University.
There has been significantgrowth in the last 30, 40 years
around horror movies.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
There's always been some of it.
I do love horror movies, see,and I do not like horror movies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
But one of the things that they said is the people
who like horror movies have thissense of sort of a protective
shell that they sort ofrecognize this is just
entertainment.
It isn't real that it feelsdistance from them that they
have these sort of means toprotect.
But yeah, the thing the statthat I shared is that some of
their research was that thewealthier the countries, the
(15:11):
higher the GDP in that country,the more there was intrigue with
horror movies, the more peopleactually went to horror movies.
And in lower-income countriesthey did not go and in many ways
I'm sure it was because they'reoften dealing with horrors in
real life.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, they're like no thanks.
I want to keep myself focusedon what's good, Exactly and in
some ways part of what horrormovies do is, again, according
to the research.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Why are people drawn to it is because it stimulates
strong emotional reaction.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Oh, it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And it scares the heebie-jeebies out of you.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I wouldn't go to the bathroom by myself after seeing
the movie it.
For like three months I made mypoor sister go with me every
day, cause that clown camethrough the drain and it was
over.
I was like you have to comewith me.
I was like I need a witness,but then again she was blind so
she wouldn't have seen anything,but she could have pulled you
back.
You know, I was maybe thinkingI'd shove her towards the clown.
(16:08):
I don't know the uh not veryChristlike, but I have since
repented and found the light.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So I do think that sort of.
In some ways, I think the drawto it is that our world is a
little more sanitized andcomfortable and so at some level
(16:36):
the attraction to that is, youknow, we're not living out where
there are bears around us.
Well, my friends in Florida aredealing with the gators right
now that have been displacedfrom the hurricane and such.
But that sense of when therearen't a lot of sort of physical
fears in the world, thatsometimes we're drawn to, that
emotional reaction.
So that was helpful for me tounderstand.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
That's really interesting because, yeah, if
you are in a country or a placeor a space that's more dangerous
, it's I mean, real life's scaryright Like real life is fearful
, and you know you have enoughcortisol running through your
body all day long.
The last thing you want to dois watch something to kind of
spike that up.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
is watch something to kind of spike that up.
Yeah, I mean, when my daughter,maddie, was down in Swaziland,
there were numerous poisonoussnakes, including, I think,
black mambas that were downthere, I know, and you'd just be
walking through the weeds andyou're like, uh-oh, there's one.
And so, yeah, there are scarythings that some people are
(17:33):
dealing with day to day and theydon't need to go to a theater
to get scared.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
What's the scariest movie you've seen?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Oh, the scariest movie I've seen.
Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Did you see one?
Oh well.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I mean I'm going really because part of it was
when I was a kid I went to theseit scared me.
One was, I remember it's like Imean this is going to really
date me though.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But the Towering Inferno I remember seeing that
one from 40 years ago orwhatever Is it in black and
white.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, that one wasn't, but I think I saw the Blob.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That was also oh wait , I do remember the Blob my
brothers blob that was also.
Wait.
I do remember the blob.
My brothers watched that thing.
It was a big.
It looked like a big booger.
I made my kids watch it.
I was so excited.
They're like this is horrible.
Yeah, I was like it was so cool.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I mean it was.
I mean, I was probably in gradeschool when I saw something
like um.
So I'm trying to think ofsomething that I've seen
recently, I don't know um thelong legs with Nicolas Cage,
because a lot of the policeofficers were freaked out at
that one.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh no yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know, there's some.
What are some of the I don'tknow.
See, I like thrillers, I likethings that sort of keep me on
the edge of my seat, but I don'tlike when it goes into the gore
.
You know, sort of that sort ofhorror.
Oh, Get Out.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Oh yeah, but that'll traumatize you.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, that'll ruin your state for a while and make
you think yeah, and make youthink sure well so, um, yeah, so
, so yeah, I mean I think thereis this.
This tension with halloween isthat it's some parts of it can
just be fun and playful andsilly and community building,
even really good stuff.
And I know one of our friendshappened to be sitting in the
(19:23):
room here has a series of is itskeletons or the Grim Reaper on
his front porch and it's sayingdon't fear the Reaper that they
break into song with.
It's connected to his Bluetoothand it's saying don't fear the
reaper that they break into songwith.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Connected to his Bluetooth and it plays all these
different songs.
Yeah, all these songs Supercool.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I mean fun, you know fun playful stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'd say we'd give you Jack's address, but he'd
probably kill us.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So, you know, I think there can be those fun, playful
things that are part of it, butthere can be this sort of
darker underside too that Ithink we need to at least be
aware of.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, yeah, and I think it's like where's your
heart at right?
Like, what are your thoughtsabout it?
When you're embarking on thisstuff, when you're participating
, you know, and is what you'redoing affecting those around you
that you love and care about?
Right?
So, like, even with that churchplant I had, we went back and
forth and, at the end of the day, it was all of us who did
(20:21):
celebrate Halloween and didn'tsee a big deal about it, giving
up our power, right, like, justas Jesus took off, you know, his
robe and put the towel aroundhis waist and washed his
disciples' feet, what does itlook like for us to be
relinquishing our power and ourright for the good of our
brothers and sisters, because welove them and that's what they
(20:41):
need, and so that's what itreally just became a space where
we did that and I love that andto me that's also honoring that
part where Paul was talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You may be free to do that and eating this food
sacrificed to others, but ifit's going to cause your brother
or sister to stumble, don't doit.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
And so it isn't just what we're free to do, it's what
is the best thing to do.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, and you know, and they've come up with a lot
of really the loving thing to do.
Absolutely, and they've come upwith a lot of like fun,
creative things now, like theyhave Trunk trunk or tree right
where you can go to differentyou know car trunks and what
other things are they doing?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
The well.
I mean, we have our Fall Festhere where we do a trunk or
treat with that.
You know, I think, just some ofthe again the community
building stuff you know, andthose things can be real
positives around this time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I would like to advocate for all staff going to
a haunted house, like if youreally cared about us.
We should all go to a hauntedhouse.
No, Simo, I think what weshould all do is, we should all
go trick-or-treating togetherand get candy.
That's where I'm at oh, thatwon't be creepy.
A bunch of adults come intoyour house trick-or-treat.
Maybe we can hand out Bibles.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Maybe that isn't a good idea.
So I think this is again one ofthose where, depending on your
perspective, we've got towrestle with it in different
ways, not only what works for me, but what works for the people
around me Absolutely, and I'dlove to hear from you guys as
well.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Let us know.
Leave a comment.
Do you celebrate Halloween?
How have you viewed this?
Has it been a struggle in yourown family?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
This is what it's about.
It's about unpacking thesetruths together and yeah, so.
So like subscribe, share itwith others If you know people
are wrestling with thesequestions, and send in your
other ideas so we can keepunpacking God's truth together.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yep, happy Halloween.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Welcome to this episode of Unpacking Truths,
where we are going to tackle thetimely topic of should
Christians celebrate Halloween?
And since we're talking,Halloween, Pastor Mo, did you
bring me any?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
candy today?
Whoa no, but I brought you acute little pumpkin right here,
oh okay, well, we have a prop.
That helps.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That's a start.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We are festive here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
We are festive here.
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We talked before, but I didn't really hear from you.
Is there a favorite costume youhad as a child or a favorite
thing?
Oh, how long did you trick ortreat Pastor Mo?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, I trick or treated with my kids for a long
time and I used to do the wholething where you're like, oh, I
have to check that candy, and ofcourse I only checked the
really good chocolate ones,Smart smart mom.
But they caught on to me prettyeasily.
Yeah, they did and then.
So I had to start bringing myown bag and pretending I was
collecting for the sick kid athome.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Every year there was a sick kid at home.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I just tried to you know leverage with my kids to
say, hey, my protective presenceshould earn some sort of reward
.
Like the Heath Bars or theThree Musketeers is what.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I wanted.
They're like we're 16, Dad,we're fine.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
You don't have to come with us.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So today, talking about Halloween, mo, we thought
it would probably be best tostart with just a little history
of where it came from.
Do you want to just start intothat?
Absolutely, yeah, so it is anancient Celtic celebration.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
It's like a New Year's Celtic or Celtic.
It's Celtic, it's I mean it'slike the Boston Celtics.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
They'll say it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
But it's.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Celtic the preferable pronunciation.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I guess in Gaelic.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
So, yes, it's about twenty five hundred years old,
right Is what?
And some historical stuff hascome up, that archaeological
evidence it could be even older,like this tradition, right?
And so it's a New Year'scelebration of the harvest is
ending, winter's coming, so it'slike from life to death, and
it's a time when Halloween comesout of this and it came to
(02:19):
America because of the Irishimmigrants, and so, yeah, I know
You're welcome the fun, thefestivities, chocolate and
costumes, all because the Irishthere, you go.
You're welcome, but it's a timewhen they thought that because
it represented new birth, rightthat the veil was thin.
(02:41):
And so the spirit world, betweenthis world and the spirit world
, yeah, the spirit world andthis world, and so it was a time
when our ancestors and thosewho've gone before but also
different spirits andsupernatural would linger in the
on the earth didn't know thatthey weren't also spirits,
(03:03):
because they were afraid theywould be taken and or, you know,
trickery would be played onthem and stuff like that.
And so they did a lot of coolthings, like we carve pumpkins.
Today they carve turnips, youknow, they light candles, and
candles were lit to actuallyguide the spirits back to their
realm.
So lots of cool, different, funthings.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, Cool, fun.
But on the other way of framingit you could say they were
pagan things.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
I mean, yeah, they were pagan, definitely pagan.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And then it was in like the seventh century when
one of the popes moved AllSaints Day from May, I think it
was, back to November 1st tosort of try and Christianize
this sort of pagan festival thathad been going on to tie it to
All Saints, and so Halloween wasHallows' Eve.
(03:54):
All Hallows' Eve, the nightbefore All Saints' Day, which
was then celebrated in thechurch, is remembering those
saints who had gone before us.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, because this tradition, samhain, was
celebrated the 31st to the 1stof November often, and there is
some actually church fathersthat wrote about celebrating the
saints in the 4th century aswell.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
But yeah, I was just saying the 7th century is when
it got moved.
But yes, so yeah, that was aChristian festival that was
tried to be superimposed and, asyou said, sort of usurping the
pagan aspects to try and make ita little more palatable,
because they didn't feel theycould get rid of it because it
was too firmly entrenched in theculture.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So they said, well, let's celebrating the reality
that those who have died arestill somehow in connection with
us in communion, right?
So there's like that element toit, Still a lot of pagan
elements too.
But so as Christians we're like, hey, wait, this resonates with
what we believe as well.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
The communion of saints.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Yeah, we're in the communion of saints that there
is life after death and we arein a weird way in communion with
them in Christ and theyintercede on our behalf and all
that kind of good stuff.
So they're like, hey, we'lltake a little bit of this and
we'll leave a little bit of that.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, so it really has this sort of dual aspect.
It's sort of the ongoing, justsort of secular festival of
Hallow's Eve or Halloween andthen this All Saints Day that
follows, and so it's sort of intension with those in some ways,
or tension or justcomplimentary, depending on how
(05:40):
you want to frame it.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Absolutely.
And it wasn't until the Irishimmigrants kind of came to
America that wave that theystarted celebrating Halloween.
They did because before that itwas definitely considered like
a no-no.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah and considered a no-no because of the connection
to.
Puritanism and the connectionto spirits and the occult and
the devil, and some of thoseaspects that it was frowned upon
by the initial pilgrims cominghere.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, because it was a time of divination too, like
they would, you know, they'dread tarot cards and they'd, you
know, read poems and all thattype of stuff as well.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Yeah, so for me, when I think about Halloween today,
there are a number of thingsthat I think are just fine about
it and fun about it.
I mean, some of the costumesthat people come up with are so
creative and silly and playful,sometimes social commentary,
sometimes just fun.
(06:39):
I think that's cool.
I think you know this is a timewhen homes are getting a little
more drab and so a littledecoration can be fun, nothing
like some dead bodies in yourfront yard.
Well, I wasn't going to thatpart of the decoration, but for
me, to me, one of the thingsthat I've always liked and
appreciated about Halloween wasthe simple fact that it was one
(07:02):
time where people in aneighborhood got out of their
homes and actually visited theirneighbors.
I mean we so often live incommunities out here where
people just they drive in theircar, they have the garage door
go up, they pull in, they maytalk to a neighbor on one side
or the other, but we don't havea lot of neighborly connection.
And this is the one event inthe year where people are out
(07:26):
going and knocking on eachother's doors.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, I love that.
It's not like awkward, it'slike everyone's doing it.
Yeah, exactly, and so youactually get to meet neighbors
and connect with neighbors andknow which ones give the bad
candy and which ones give theawesome candy.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, of course every kid rates that, but for me I
mean and even from a Christianperspective that whole thing
where Jesus says love yourneighbors yourself.
How do we love our neighbor ifwe don't even know who our
neighbors are?
Speaker 2 (07:53):
And so for me.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
I love that part of Halloween and so I love going
out with my kids andtrick-or-treating not only
because then I get a little ofthe candy, but it was a chance
to just meet neighbors andconnect.
So I love that community aspectof Halloween and would hate to
lose that.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
No absolutely, and you and I were talking earlier
kind of about how Paul spokeinto eating the meat that was,
or the animals that weresacrificed right on the altars,
and you know some people thoughtyou shouldn't, some thought you
should.
Or if it was, on what was it?
The meat that was sacrificed?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, sacrificed to idols.
And yeah, Paul's point wasShould you eat it, should you
not?
He said we know idols arenothing Right, so we can eat it
because everything is the Lord's.
I mean, he says in 1Corinthians 8 and in chapter 10,
he talks about this.
And so he says it isn't aproblem because they're not real
(08:51):
.
He said but there are otherpeople whose consciences may be
troubled by the fact that holdit, if you're doing that in that
temple or you're doing it andthey knew that you could cause
them to stumble.
And so, even if you have thefreedom to do it, you can't just
say, well, I'm free to do it,so whatever we need to out of
(09:12):
love, also think hold it, are myactions, my freedom going to
cause other people to stumble?
And so to me the tie-in withHalloween becomes if I'm free to
do some of this stuff, but ifI'm causing someone else to
think, oh, all that occult stuffis okay and there's no big
problem with any aspects of eviland that.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Well then, we may need to rethink some of it.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Right, because I think it comes back to like you
know, I love that scripturebecause it comes back to how are
you personally viewing it right?
Like?
Are you viewing it like, oh, itdoesn't matter, this is nothing
to me, this meat is nothing,you know?
Like it doesn't matter, this isnothing.
They're dressing as witches, orthey're dressing as fairies, or
(10:06):
they're dressing as princesses.
Whatever it is, it has nomeaning in your heart.
And there were a lot of people,a lot of African-Americans,
predominantly from a SouthernBaptist type background, and
they did not celebrate Halloween.
It was absolutely not okay andI actually brought some of the
scripture and readings as to why.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So why do some people say yeah?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
because we had to sit down.
And had to sit down andactually like hash through this,
because maybe my perspective orsome other people's perspective
in the church was who cares?
Like we're just having fun,like this is a—you know?
Like we have trees at Christmasthat came from, you know, a
holiday that was consideredpagan, so it's—yeah.
(10:49):
So some of them were, forinstance, like rejecting the
occult or things that arewitchcraft, right, and so that
comes out of Deuteronomy 18, 10,that says Let no one be found
among you who sacrifices theirsons and daughters in the fire,
who practice divination orsorcery, interpret omens, engage
in witchcraft or cast spells,or who is a median or spiritist
(11:13):
or who consults with the dead.
And so this day does come outof sowin, right.
So it comes out of a traditionwhere there was this idea of
connecting with the dead,talking with the dead, and so
the and with the whole idea ofwitches and stuff like that,
they're just like.
I want nothing attached tosomething that even derived from
(11:34):
that.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Yeah, what was one of the other reasons they had?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, so some of the other reasons were avoiding
works of darkness.
That was from Ephesians 5.11.
Have nothing to do with thefruitless deeds of darkness, but
rather expose them.
And Halloween was seen as atime that kind of like glorified
darkness, like looking at thescary and the gloom and the you
know and death, and not in a wayof like the saints, but in a
(12:01):
more gory way, I guess.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
You bet and Mo on that there's someone close in my
life who really came toawakening in their faith in
Christ at an event that happenedto be on Halloween, oh really.
And so for them that was thatsense of turning from darkness
to light, and so for them, thatsense of Halloween being
(12:24):
something that I don't want tohave anything to do with, it
became that very visiblerepresentation of I'm turning to
the light of Christ and I'm notgetting caught in the works of
the world, and so for themthere's very much that sense
that Halloween represents, allthat sort of darkness.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Were you out evangelizing on Halloween.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
No, that was not me that helped this person to.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Were you a preacher going door to door?
I was not.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Trick or treat.
You've been tricked.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Here's the gospel.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
But Mo, there is we talked about it earlier One of
my silly costumes as an adult.
I went to a party and I foundthis really purple satiny suit
at Goodwill that I got and Ibrought a briefcase and I went
(13:17):
as a used Bible salesman to thisyeah, I was already a pastor.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
That's where all our Bibles went.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Exactly.
No, this was 30 years ago.
So yeah, I mean there can bethe playful side, but some
people are very focused on thereality of darkness that is
sometimes connected with thisand that is why I'm sure, at
that church plant for my friend,that sense of I don't want to
be associated with those things.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Right, and I mean as Christians.
You know there's a lot ofdifferent scripture that talks
about focusing, keeping our eyesfixed on Christ.
Seek first the kingdom of God,like Philippians 4, 8, even.
You know, brothers and sisters,whatever's true, noble, right,
pure, lovely, admirable, ifanything is excellent and
praiseworthy, think of suchthings.
(14:04):
Right, like we are a peoplethat are supposed to hyper-focus
ourselves on things that aregood and of the light, because
we do know that what we see,what we take in it, affects us
right.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Our psyche Garbage in , garbage out.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
And we were just talking earlier about.
Tell us some of what you kindof researched about how people
are attracted to horror andwhere that kind of comes out of.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I was looking this up in context of this podcast and
there was some stuff from theHarvard Business Review and John
Hopkins University.
There has been significantgrowth in the last 30, 40 years
around horror movies.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
There's always been some of it.
I do love horror movies, see,and I do not like horror movies.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
But one of the things that they said is the people
who like horror movies have thissense of sort of a protective
shell that they sort ofrecognize this is just
entertainment.
It isn't real that it feelsdistance from them that they
have these sort of means toprotect.
But yeah, the thing the statthat I shared is that some of
their research was that thewealthier the countries, the
(15:11):
higher the GDP in that country,the more there was intrigue with
horror movies, the more peopleactually went to horror movies.
And in lower-income countriesthey did not go and in many ways
I'm sure it was because they'reoften dealing with horrors in
real life.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, they're like no thanks.
I want to keep myself focusedon what's good, Exactly and in
some ways part of what horrormovies do is, again, according
to the research.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Why are people drawn to it is because it stimulates
strong emotional reaction.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Oh, it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And it scares the heebie-jeebies out of you.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
I wouldn't go to the bathroom by myself after seeing
the movie it.
For like three months I made mypoor sister go with me every
day, cause that clown camethrough the drain and it was
over.
I was like you have to comewith me.
I was like I need a witness,but then again she was blind so
she wouldn't have seen anything,but she could have pulled you
back.
You know, I was maybe thinkingI'd shove her towards the clown.
(16:08):
I don't know the uh not veryChristlike, but I have since
repented and found the light.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
So I do think that sort of.
In some ways, I think the drawto it is that our world is a
little more sanitized andcomfortable and so at some level
(16:36):
the attraction to that is, youknow, we're not living out where
there are bears around us.
Well, my friends in Florida aredealing with the gators right
now that have been displacedfrom the hurricane and such.
But that sense of when therearen't a lot of sort of physical
fears in the world, thatsometimes we're drawn to, that
emotional reaction.
So that was helpful for me tounderstand.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
That's really interesting because, yeah, if
you are in a country or a placeor a space that's more dangerous
, it's I mean, real life's scaryright Like real life is fearful
, and you know you have enoughcortisol running through your
body all day long.
The last thing you want to dois watch something to kind of
spike that up.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
is watch something to kind of spike that up.
Yeah, I mean, when my daughter,maddie, was down in Swaziland,
there were numerous poisonoussnakes, including, I think,
black mambas that were downthere, I know, and you'd just be
walking through the weeds andyou're like, uh-oh, there's one.
And so, yeah, there are scarythings that some people are
(17:33):
dealing with day to day and theydon't need to go to a theater
to get scared.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
What's the scariest movie you've seen?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Oh, the scariest movie I've seen.
Oh, that's a great question.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Did you see one?
Oh well.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I mean I'm going really because part of it was
when I was a kid I went to theseit scared me.
One was, I remember it's like Imean this is going to really
date me though.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But the Towering Inferno I remember seeing that
one from 40 years ago orwhatever Is it in black and
white.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, that one wasn't, but I think I saw the Blob.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That was also oh wait , I do remember the Blob my
brothers blob that was also.
Wait.
I do remember the blob.
My brothers watched that thing.
It was a big.
It looked like a big booger.
I made my kids watch it.
I was so excited.
They're like this is horrible.
Yeah, I was like it was so cool.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I mean it was.
I mean, I was probably in gradeschool when I saw something
like um.
So I'm trying to think ofsomething that I've seen
recently, I don't know um thelong legs with Nicolas Cage,
because a lot of the policeofficers were freaked out at
that one.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Oh no yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
You know, there's some.
What are some of the I don'tknow.
See, I like thrillers, I likethings that sort of keep me on
the edge of my seat, but I don'tlike when it goes into the gore
.
You know, sort of that sort ofhorror.
Oh, Get Out.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Oh yeah, but that'll traumatize you.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, that'll ruin your state for a while and make
you think yeah, and make youthink sure well so, um, yeah, so
, so yeah, I mean I think thereis this.
This tension with halloween isthat it's some parts of it can
just be fun and playful andsilly and community building,
even really good stuff.
And I know one of our friendshappened to be sitting in the
(19:23):
room here has a series of is itskeletons or the Grim Reaper on
his front porch and it's sayingdon't fear the Reaper that they
break into song with.
It's connected to his Bluetoothand it's saying don't fear the
reaper that they break into songwith.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Connected to his Bluetooth and it plays all these
different songs.
Yeah, all these songs Supercool.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I mean fun, you know fun playful stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I'd say we'd give you Jack's address, but he'd
probably kill us.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
So, you know, I think there can be those fun, playful
things that are part of it, butthere can be this sort of
darker underside too that Ithink we need to at least be
aware of.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Well, yeah, and I think it's like where's your
heart at right?
Like, what are your thoughtsabout it?
When you're embarking on thisstuff, when you're participating
, you know, and is what you'redoing affecting those around you
that you love and care about?
Right?
So, like, even with that churchplant I had, we went back and
forth and, at the end of the day, it was all of us who did
(20:21):
celebrate Halloween and didn'tsee a big deal about it, giving
up our power, right, like, justas Jesus took off, you know, his
robe and put the towel aroundhis waist and washed his
disciples' feet, what does itlook like for us to be
relinquishing our power and ourright for the good of our
brothers and sisters, because welove them and that's what they
(20:41):
need, and so that's what itreally just became a space where
we did that and I love that andto me that's also honoring that
part where Paul was talkingabout.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
You may be free to do that and eating this food
sacrificed to others, but ifit's going to cause your brother
or sister to stumble, don't doit.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
And so it isn't just what we're free to do, it's what
is the best thing to do.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yeah, and you know, and they've come up with a lot
of really the loving thing to do.
Absolutely, and they've come upwith a lot of like fun,
creative things now, like theyhave Trunk trunk or tree right
where you can go to differentyou know car trunks and what
other things are they doing?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
The well.
I mean, we have our Fall Festhere where we do a trunk or
treat with that.
You know, I think, just some ofthe again the community
building stuff you know, andthose things can be real
positives around this time.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
I would like to advocate for all staff going to
a haunted house, like if youreally cared about us.
We should all go to a hauntedhouse.
No, Simo, I think what weshould all do is, we should all
go trick-or-treating togetherand get candy.
That's where I'm at oh, thatwon't be creepy.
A bunch of adults come intoyour house trick-or-treat.
Maybe we can hand out Bibles.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Maybe that isn't a good idea.
So I think this is again one ofthose where, depending on your
perspective, we've got towrestle with it in different
ways, not only what works for me, but what works for the people
around me Absolutely, and I'dlove to hear from you guys as
well.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Let us know.
Leave a comment.
Do you celebrate Halloween?
How have you viewed this?
Has it been a struggle in yourown family?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
This is what it's about.
It's about unpacking thesetruths together and yeah, so.
So like subscribe, share itwith others If you know people
are wrestling with thesequestions, and send in your
other ideas so we can keepunpacking God's truth together.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Yep, happy Halloween.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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