October 22, 2024 • 26 mins
Watch on YouTube
https://youtu.be/1xP5LsM-uL0
Could the path to heaven be more inclusive than traditionally thought? Join us as we challenge conventional beliefs by exploring the teachings of Jesus and the dynamic interpretations of salvation. We scrutinize parables from the Gospel of Matthew that depict the division between those deemed 'in' and 'out' of heaven, and probe the intriguing concept that salvation might come through faith rather than deeds. You'll hear about Richard Rohr's inclusivist theology, which suggests that Christ’s redemptive presence may not be confined to Christians alone, offering a broader scope of divine grace to those from varied cultural and religious backgrounds.
Journey with us as we uncover inspiring tales like those of Jamie Winship and Mother Teresa, illustrating the omnipresence of God's love and the transformative power of living one's faith through actions. Discover how the concept of hell might be a self-imposed distance from God rather than a place of eternal damnation. Amidst these profound discussions, enjoy a light-hearted segment on the independence of teenagers and the parenting challenges it brings. Tune in for insights that could reshape your understanding of faith, salvation, and the boundless love of God, and find encouragement to embody Christ's love in your daily life.
Help share this podcast with others, so they can experience the freedom of God's truth, and we unpack it together! Like, share, subscribe or visit unpackingtruths.com for more info!
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe for more Unpacking Truths!
🎙️ Listen to Unpacking Truths on your favorite platforms:
✝️ Connect with Unpacking Truths:
- UnpackingTruths.com
- UnpackingTruths@locchurch.com
😃 Connect with Unpacking Truths on Social Media:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, today, on Unpacking Truths, we are going
to be unpacking an incrediblyimportant topic.
We know from the Disney movieall dogs go to heaven, so that's
a guarantee.
But do all humans go to heaven?
Do all people go to heaven?
What about that neighbor thatlets his dog poop on your yard
all the time that you seethrough your window?
Go to heaven.
(00:20):
I don't know what about yourin-law that drives you nuts on
purpose and you know they'redoing it on purpose.
Did they go to heaven, Kendall?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, that's what we're talking about today, Mo.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
All right, so how's that answer?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
How's that non-answer for an answer.
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, this is a topic that people have talked about
and wrestled with and, you know,through the centuries and you
know, christians of alldifferent stripes and styles
have asked questions about this.
So where I thought maybe we'djust start is not a bad place to
start Start with Jesus.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well, that's a good place.
He might be the way, the truthand the life.
We're not sure, though.
We're about to unpack that foryou.
No, he is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
He said it and I agree and you agree, I do, but
one of the places where Jesus ina number of his parables and
the way I found these parablesis I just went on Bible Gateway
and looked up weeping, because Iwanted to find all the parables
where he talks about thosebeing cast out to weeping and
(01:40):
gnashing of teeth yes.
So, and I was struck, a lot ofthem are from the gospel of
Matthew, which makes some sense,and maybe we'll get into that
later, but where there's anumber of these places, where I
mean the famous one, the sheepand the goats, where, you know,
divides the right and the left,where the parable of the great
(02:00):
feast, where all are welcome,but then one is thrown out to
darkness.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
He's not dressed right, he's not dressed right.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, that's a whole, nother, we should just do a
whole one on that there was athemed party happening.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You got to get the right clothes on, yeah, and he
didn't.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
And so there's just these places in Matthew 8,
matthew 22, matthew 25, where anumber of the parables that
Jesus tells have this sense,where at the end there's a
division that happens and thatthese are in and these are out.
And so there has been thatsense from the beginning, as
well as other places, that thereis this division that happens
(02:36):
at the end, that some are in andsome are out, and other
scriptures talk about how do youknow whether you're in or not,
because then Jesus also talksabout the place of not everyone.
who calls me Lord, lord willenter the kingdom of heaven, but
theologically and as good folksof the Protestant Reformation,
(03:01):
it's by faith that we are savedand not works.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You know, it's by faith that we are saved and not
works, and yet, yeah, and yet Ithink it kind of comes down to
like how do we view Christ?
Right?
So it's, you know, when I thinkabout this, I think about a
recent book.
I love theology, so I love thedifferent ways of thinking about
God, and so one of the booksthat I've really kind of picked
(03:25):
up and been intrigued with is abook by Richard Rohr.
He's a Franciscan priest andhe's pretty.
He walks the edge in some ways.
It's an inclusivist theology,right Like so he, and I figure
it has to be pretty good if hehasn't been kicked out yet by
the Pope, and I figure it has tobe pretty good if he hasn't
(03:46):
been kicked out yet by the Pope,so it's all right.
So this idea is that salvationis through Christ alone right,
but it extends to those whomaybe aren't considered
Christians.
And so the idea is that we knowthat Christ, everything was
(04:10):
created in and through Christ,and Christ is within all things
and all of creation, and so thevery presence of Christ makes
God's self known right inindigenous, with indigenous
people that may have never, youknow, been evangelized or
personally heard about Jesus,the man and people.
So Christ comes to people allover in different ways, and they
(04:30):
can still.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
This is Richard Rohr talking.
Yeah, yeah, this is still yeahyeah, I'm explaining the
inclusivism theology.
Okay, which he calls it theuniversal Christ, is the title
of that book.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So, yeah, the universal Christ is the Because,
and a lot of it comes out ofthe gospel of John, the
understanding that Christ hasbeen there since the beginning,
even before creation, right, andso the presence of Christ moved
in and through the man of Jesus.
And so the presence of Christmoves in and through other
(05:02):
things in other places, throughother cultures as well, and
Christ and God will always makeGod self-known, and so it
doesn't need to look likeproclaim that Jesus is your Lord
and Savior, say these words, oryou have to say I am a
Christian, have to say I am aChristian.
(05:28):
You have to have a relationshipwith Christ, a personal
relationship with you, knowChrist, knowing God, and so I
think that's, I mean it's, Ithink it's a really neat and
interesting way, and he uses alot of scripture to back up his
thoughts as well.
You know this idea thatChrist's redemptive work is
beyond Christianity.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, mo, I've always been intrigued throughout in
reading scripture.
There are places where, I meanin the Old Testament, god uses
Cyrus to free the people and inthe prophet Isaiah says Cyrus,
(06:12):
my son.
I mean that God is using.
So God is clearly at work inpeople beyond the Jewish people
or the Christian people, so thatclearly has shown up.
There are also scriptures inthe Old Testament, again in
Isaiah.
I'm just going back to Isaiah,chapter 2.
In days to come, the mountainof the Lord's house shall be
(06:33):
established as the highest ofthe mountains and shall be
raised above the hills.
All the nations shall stream toit.
That this vision of in the lastday, god is going to draw all
people to himself.
In Isaiah 25, you have thatalso.
On this mountain, the Lord ofhosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast ofwell-aged wine, of rich food
(06:56):
full of marrow, of aged wine,and he will swallow up on this
mountain the covering that iscast over all peoples.
The veil was wanting to drawall people and God would draw
all people to himself.
(07:17):
So there is some of thatuniversalist themes in some
scriptures, Old Testament and alittle in here.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, and it's not universalism.
It's not like universalism,right.
It's the understanding that youlook at Christ in a more cosmic
way.
In Genesis it speaks about wewill make them in our image,
right, and that's where theTrinity comes out of Father, son
and Holy Spirit, and Son isChrist, the very presence of
(07:47):
Christ, and so it's just a moreuniversal understanding of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, you're right, we've used universal in two ways
.
You used it one way and Ireally started using it in
another way.
So that's maybe a distinctionwe should have clarified.
So that's maybe a distinctionwe should have clarified.
So Richard Rohr is talkingabout Christ being Christ, the
Logos as John talks about itpresent in Jesus, but maybe
(08:14):
present in other ways in theworld.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, christ made, so God became incarnate, so Christ
became incarnate through theman of Jesus.
And so that's.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Incarnate meaning in flesh, yes, in flesh yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
In human form, in the man of Jesus, but also, all
things have been created in andthrough Christ, and so that's
how we have the presence ofChrist in us as well, and Christ
God makes God self known.
So let's go on that a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
One of my concerns with that, my hesitancy with
that sort of viewpoint that Roarlifts up, is that you can end
up in this place, of that youcan.
How do you discern what istruly Christ in showing up in
some other culture if you don'thave the explicitness, the
(09:05):
specificity of Jesus?
Because you could end upblessing anything and everything
and say, well, that's theChrist in that culture, when
maybe it isn't really.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So, yeah, and the understanding of that is that
God is not changing, right?
God is who God is, which is youknow.
You see it through the fruitsof the spirit, through love and
generosity and self-control, andthese things make themselves
known.
This is the understanding,right?
These things make themselvesknown in other cultures across
(09:37):
the world, whether anyonespecifically told them about
Jesus Christ, the man and God,uh, having come to earth for us,
and the whole story, right, thewhole story of you know.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And I could go at that same way in a theologically
from a different place is that,if we were all created in the
image of God, that there isstill some of that inherent
goodness, of that creation ofthe image of God in all people
everywhere that can recognizegood from evil.
I mean Paul even talks about inRomans 1, they all should know,
(10:17):
because we are created.
So there is that sense For me.
I just keep coming back to thethat to me, the uniqueness of
Christianity, or part of theuniqueness, is that we said God
revealed himself most clearly inflesh in the person of Jesus.
And so that's because there areother value systems that are
(10:38):
out there and that in some levelI still need to judge those
value systems, or I assess themthrough the lens of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I think what this does, so what this book does
right the universal Christ andthis understanding does is it
helps kind of answer thequestion if God is such a loving
, good God, then explain to mehow children or people in other
areas of the world that never,ever hear about Jesus, so they
just die and they don't get tobe with God, they don't get to
(11:09):
be with the one who created themand made them.
That makes absolutely no sense,and so this kind of fills that
space, because it's not sayingthat— it's more addressing that
sort of question.
Absolutely, because it's notsaying that if you heard about
Jesus and how God came and thewhole story right of what God
has done in and through you knowthe Jewish people and on, and
(11:32):
you deny it or you, that'sdifferent right, and so it's
addressing Christ, making youknow God, making himself known
in ways that are just beyond ourunderstanding at times, and it
answers some of those questionsas well.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And you know, in those places, when someone has
asked me through the yearswhether it's in a confirmation
class or someone else, well,what about people who never
heard about Jesus?
Are they all going to hell?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I go like the God I know is a gracious God, God is
going to handle that.
I don't need to be, that's adecision I don't have to make, I
don't have to understand.
But the other thing for me is,I think the one.
So there's the universal Christ, there's also a universalism
(12:25):
which is the idea you bet thatwhere everyone goes to heaven in
the end.
And that's another idea and thatwas some of the scriptures that
I was pointing to of the ideathat is the God of grace and
love going to eventuallytransform everyone to want to
respond to him.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, yeah, and so that's the hard part, right,
Like if the big story is.
That's why I'm kind of diggingand appreciating this
understanding of Christ in a newway the big story if it is God
wanting to bring all people tohimself, make everything whole
and new again, it would makesense that God would work in
(13:04):
ways that aren't just withinthis box, right?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
But again.
And so, yes, the big tensionfor me with that, and while
there's some intrigue with that,the big tension for me is all
of the things that I heard Jesusclearly say, especially the
great commission at the end.
Go, therefore, and makedisciples of all nations,
teaching them to obey all that Ihave commanded you, that there
(13:32):
is a commission upon Christiansto share who Jesus is.
Oh yeah.
And so that the danger for me ofthis, you know, when people
talk well, all people are saved,because everyone's kind of you
know, because a loving Godwouldn't connect For me, we're
then undermining so much of whatJesus called us to be about.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
See and I don't think it needs to do that because we
don't have to you know, jesussays you put your hand to the
plow, don't look back, or you'renot fit for the kingdom of God,
right?
Paul says don't be wishy-washy,you can't sit on both sides of
the fence, right?
So if you're either all in oryou're all out, so you're either
following the ways of Jesus andgoing, either following the
ways of Jesus and going,regardless of how hard it is,
regardless if you're comfortableor not, or you're not.
(14:14):
So there is this understandingof kind of more black and white
when it comes to that.
But I think that I would, evenwhen we think about Christians,
when I think about myself evenWell, that's always the best
place for us to come back to Mo.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You're right, Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
When I think about Christians and myself, right
this understanding that yeah, Ican say Jesus is my Lord and
Savior.
But if I'm not living a lifethat looks like that, if I'm not
knowing what I need to do,that's in Scripture how I need
to have relationships withpeople that forgiveness is not
an option, it's a requirement,it's a commandment.
If I'm not living these thingsout, then really scripture says
(14:58):
you're on the other side, you'renot fit for the kingdom of
heaven, like so you're outanyway.
So it is a king.
That's why thank you Jesus,literally, that we are always
forgiven again and again andwith that same kind of gracious
pouring out on us right to makeus new.
God wants to do that in otherways, with those, maybe, who
(15:20):
don't get to hear about thegospel message.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, and I have no trouble with the idea that God
can work in other ways andcultures before they have heard
of Jesus, and I like whereyou're holding it back to.
But those of us who have heard,we're called to a response.
We're called to you know.
For God so loved the world thathe sent his only son that
(15:43):
whoever believe in him shouldnot be condemned but be saved.
I just brought it up John 3, 16, because I also love John 3,
17,.
That they may not perish buthave eternal life says in 16.
But in verse 17,.
Indeed, god did not send theSon into the world to condemn
(16:04):
the world, but in order that theworld might be saved through
him.
That salvation does comethrough Jesus.
How does it go out to people?
That's on God.
But we are called to keeppointing to the Jesus who we
have come to know, who gave hislife on the cross for us and
taught us what I believe areGod's ways, trying to draw the
(16:29):
world back to himself.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
No.
So and here's a really kind ofinteresting thing that you say
that.
So there, yes, absolutely,there's tons of scripture for
days that we can name.
Matthew 7,.
Jesus is the gate, the way.
1 John 5, 11.
The eternal life is onlythrough God's son.
1 Corinthians 3, 11.
The only foundation is Jesus,right.
(16:51):
So there is all these things,and I cannot but think of
Richard, or not Richard Rohr,jamie Winship, who you know
worked for the CIA.
He did a lot of dismantling ofterrorism in different countries
and he kind of takes thisapproach to where Richard Rohr
is going, that a little bit thatyou don't have to.
(17:16):
He's in a world, part of theworld, that's mostly Muslim and
he's like they don't need tostop being Muslim, they just
need to meet Jesus.
Yes, they need to know Christ,right.
And so he literally introducespeople to who Jesus is and
doesn't say like you have to,you know, step away from being
(17:37):
Muslim, but he welcomes in arelationship with Jesus and so
many of them, their lives havebeen transformed.
So I think it's also thisunderstanding of like we don't
have to say to people you are nolonger Jewish, right, we have a
wonderful woman who works here,candy.
She's Jewish.
She's still Jewish.
She's not not Jewish becauseshe believes Jesus is the
(18:01):
Messiah.
And so when we do have thatopportunity to introduce and to
make other people disciples andto know the whole story, I do
think it is our responsibility.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, you know one of the.
So I think where we're agreeingis that it is about what God
has done through Christ and thatChrist we meet Christ, the
third person of the Trinity,through.
We meet him through Jesus.
The logos the Christ may havemade God's will known in other
(18:39):
ways, but we have to keeppointing to Jesus because that's
where we've seen it in flesh.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, and so part of this to account, but think of
Mother Teresa and when I was inKolkata, india, and really the
understanding of you know, showpeople Jesus daily.
Use words when necessary, right.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, St Francis.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, St Francis.
And so she really lived thatout.
That you know.
It's about what you do.
It's about making your beliefsyour life and so making worship
your life.
It's not just Sunday.
You live that out on an everyday, and maybe sometimes words
aren't needed, and for her manytimes they weren't.
(19:20):
And yet people came to knowChrist because of the way she
loved them and her true beliefand why she gave her whole life
to this, was that theirexperience of Christ.
For those moments before theypassed from this life to the
next, she fully believed thatthat encounter then allowed them
(19:41):
to go, be in the presence oftheir creator and of God.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, and one of the other, and we're getting low on
time here.
But one of the other things Iwanted to lift up, mo, is that
people have wrestled with is, oh, you're in, and God saying to
that person, you're out.
That it really was about thatthrough Jesus we meet God's love
(20:25):
and that what heaven is.
What heaven is.
It's not about streets of goldand fish that jump onto my line
that what heaven is about isbeing in the presence of God,
being in the presence of love,being in the presence of Jesus'
grace for us.
And in his book the GreatDivorce, what he describes is
(20:46):
like these people taking thisbus ride from hell to heaven,
and God keeps reaching out topeople and wants them.
But they come into heaven andthey don't want.
It's too loving for them, it'stoo God-focused.
They want their life to befocused on themselves.
So it's not God consigning themto hell.
They consign themselves to hellbecause they don't want to be
(21:08):
in the presence of the wonder ofGod's love and grace.
They want the world to revolvearound them and God's saying now
the world finally revolvesaround the love that I have for
you and they reject it, thatit's not this God condemning,
it's them rejecting, and that,to me, gets God off the hook of
condemning, and so I've alwaysbeen that.
(21:30):
To me, god off the hook ofcondemning, and so I've always
been.
That to me, frees God to be theloving God that God is and that
we don't have to have himconsigning this person in and
out.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, and I do think we.
I love that, but we do, and Ido think hell is separation from
God right, and so God iscontinuously pursuing us.
I think the how is what we needto be far more open about the
truth that God is mysterious.
God's ways are not our ways,and for us to even think we
could comprehend them fully orunderstand them or put them in a
(22:02):
box, I think is foolish of us,because God wants to make all
things whole and bring allthings and all peoples to
himself, and so why would Godnot do this in some really
creative and different ways?
And people only come to knowwho Jesus is in and through
people, right?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think.
But as we've also said, mo, thetension on the other side being
open to the mysterious waysthat God works, but also not
this like well, god's loving, soGod's going to make it work?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
No, it's not a cheat that we become.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
you know where Jesus said not everyone who calls me
Lord, lord, will enter thekingdom of heaven.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Because we can get this arrogant sense like well.
I'm good, you're good, it's allgood.
God's got to love us all, usall.
But our response to lettingthat love transform us and being
open to the I mean the wordsalvation literally comes from
(23:01):
salve, s-a-l-v.
Healing the healing that Godwants to do in our lives.
If we resist, that, god doesn'tforce himself on us.
So that to me, the distinctionis are we open to it?
Because, God keeps coming to us.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Right, and I think it's.
When we talk about cheap gracetoo.
I think it's important to sayyou know, people who go to
church all the time are in thechurch, profess Jesus as their
Lord and Savior and yet don'tlive those things out right?
Do they go to heaven, do theynot?
Like you're professing it withyour mouth but you're not living
it out, and so that becomes aspace, too, where it's kind of
(23:35):
like, because there's scripturethat shows it's not just
professing with your mouth, it'salso with your life.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, and I think this is where and then
remembering Matthew 7, we don'tjudge.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
No.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, and so I think we need to continue to proclaim
Jesus, we need to say it's allabout what God has done, not
about what we do.
And yet Jesus wants to lead uson a journey in our lives and we
just keep saying that, and howGod works it out in the end, we
leave that up to God.
We just keep doing what hecalls us to do.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Otherwise we have no idea if they're going to heaven
or not.
We're still unpacking, guys.
We need your help to continueunpacking.
But I would love to hear Idon't know about you, but I
would love to hear what you guyshave to say on this topic, what
your thoughts are, because thiscan get deep.
It does, it really does.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It does, and so like, share and if you have comments,
please do that, and if you haveother ideas of topics we want
to wrestle with together, weinvite you to send those in.
Next time, on Unpacking Truths,is there a favorite costume you
had as a child or a favoritething?
Oh, how long did you trick ortreat Pastor Mo?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, I, you know, I trick or treated with my kids
for a long time and I used to dothe whole thing where you're
like, oh, I have to check thatcandy, and of course I only
checked like the really goodchocolate ones, Smart smart mom,
but they caught on to me pretty.
Yeah, they did and then.
So I had to start bringing myown bag and pretending I was
collecting for the sick kid athome.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Every year there was a sick kid at home.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I just tried to you know leverage with my kids to
say, hey, my protective presenceshould earn some sort of reward
.
Like the Heath Bars or theThree Musketeers.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They're like we're 16 , Dad, we're fine.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You don't have to come with us.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
All right, today, on Unpacking Truths, we are going
to be unpacking an incrediblyimportant topic.
We know from the Disney movieall dogs go to heaven, so that's
a guarantee.
But do all humans go to heaven?
Do all people go to heaven?
What about that neighbor thatlets his dog poop on your yard
all the time that you seethrough your window?
Go to heaven.
(00:20):
I don't know what about yourin-law that drives you nuts on
purpose and you know they'redoing it on purpose.
Did they go to heaven, Kendall?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Well, that's what we're talking about today, Mo.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
All right, so how's that answer?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
How's that non-answer for an answer.
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, this is a topic that people have talked about
and wrestled with and, you know,through the centuries and you
know, christians of alldifferent stripes and styles
have asked questions about this.
So where I thought maybe we'djust start is not a bad place to
start Start with Jesus.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well, that's a good place.
He might be the way, the truthand the life.
We're not sure, though.
We're about to unpack that foryou.
No, he is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
He said it and I agree and you agree, I do, but
one of the places where Jesus ina number of his parables and
the way I found these parablesis I just went on Bible Gateway
and looked up weeping, because Iwanted to find all the parables
where he talks about thosebeing cast out to weeping and
(01:40):
gnashing of teeth yes.
So, and I was struck, a lot ofthem are from the gospel of
Matthew, which makes some sense,and maybe we'll get into that
later, but where there's anumber of these places, where I
mean the famous one, the sheepand the goats, where, you know,
divides the right and the left,where the parable of the great
(02:00):
feast, where all are welcome,but then one is thrown out to
darkness.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
He's not dressed right, he's not dressed right.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, that's a whole, nother, we should just do a
whole one on that there was athemed party happening.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
You got to get the right clothes on, yeah, and he
didn't.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
And so there's just these places in Matthew 8,
matthew 22, matthew 25, where anumber of the parables that
Jesus tells have this sense,where at the end there's a
division that happens and thatthese are in and these are out.
And so there has been thatsense from the beginning, as
well as other places, that thereis this division that happens
(02:36):
at the end, that some are in andsome are out, and other
scriptures talk about how do youknow whether you're in or not,
because then Jesus also talksabout the place of not everyone.
who calls me Lord, lord willenter the kingdom of heaven, but
theologically and as good folksof the Protestant Reformation,
(03:01):
it's by faith that we are savedand not works.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
You know, it's by faith that we are saved and not
works, and yet, yeah, and yet Ithink it kind of comes down to
like how do we view Christ?
Right?
So it's, you know, when I thinkabout this, I think about a
recent book.
I love theology, so I love thedifferent ways of thinking about
God, and so one of the booksthat I've really kind of picked
(03:25):
up and been intrigued with is abook by Richard Rohr.
He's a Franciscan priest andhe's pretty.
He walks the edge in some ways.
It's an inclusivist theology,right Like so he, and I figure
it has to be pretty good if hehasn't been kicked out yet by
the Pope, and I figure it has tobe pretty good if he hasn't
(03:46):
been kicked out yet by the Pope,so it's all right.
So this idea is that salvationis through Christ alone right,
but it extends to those whomaybe aren't considered
Christians.
And so the idea is that we knowthat Christ, everything was
(04:10):
created in and through Christ,and Christ is within all things
and all of creation, and so thevery presence of Christ makes
God's self known right inindigenous, with indigenous
people that may have never, youknow, been evangelized or
personally heard about Jesus,the man and people.
So Christ comes to people allover in different ways, and they
(04:30):
can still.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
This is Richard Rohr talking.
Yeah, yeah, this is still yeahyeah, I'm explaining the
inclusivism theology.
Okay, which he calls it theuniversal Christ, is the title
of that book.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So, yeah, the universal Christ is the Because,
and a lot of it comes out ofthe gospel of John, the
understanding that Christ hasbeen there since the beginning,
even before creation, right, andso the presence of Christ moved
in and through the man of Jesus.
And so the presence of Christmoves in and through other
(05:02):
things in other places, throughother cultures as well, and
Christ and God will always makeGod self-known, and so it
doesn't need to look likeproclaim that Jesus is your Lord
and Savior, say these words, oryou have to say I am a
Christian, have to say I am aChristian.
(05:28):
You have to have a relationshipwith Christ, a personal
relationship with you, knowChrist, knowing God, and so I
think that's, I mean it's, Ithink it's a really neat and
interesting way, and he uses alot of scripture to back up his
thoughts as well.
You know this idea thatChrist's redemptive work is
beyond Christianity.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Well, mo, I've always been intrigued throughout in
reading scripture.
There are places where, I meanin the Old Testament, god uses
Cyrus to free the people and inthe prophet Isaiah says Cyrus,
(06:12):
my son.
I mean that God is using.
So God is clearly at work inpeople beyond the Jewish people
or the Christian people, so thatclearly has shown up.
There are also scriptures inthe Old Testament, again in
Isaiah.
I'm just going back to Isaiah,chapter 2.
In days to come, the mountainof the Lord's house shall be
(06:33):
established as the highest ofthe mountains and shall be
raised above the hills.
All the nations shall stream toit.
That this vision of in the lastday, god is going to draw all
people to himself.
In Isaiah 25, you have thatalso.
On this mountain, the Lord ofhosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast ofwell-aged wine, of rich food
(06:56):
full of marrow, of aged wine,and he will swallow up on this
mountain the covering that iscast over all peoples.
The veil was wanting to drawall people and God would draw
all people to himself.
(07:17):
So there is some of thatuniversalist themes in some
scriptures, Old Testament and alittle in here.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah, and it's not universalism.
It's not like universalism,right.
It's the understanding that youlook at Christ in a more cosmic
way.
In Genesis it speaks about wewill make them in our image,
right, and that's where theTrinity comes out of Father, son
and Holy Spirit, and Son isChrist, the very presence of
(07:47):
Christ, and so it's just a moreuniversal understanding of
Christ.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, you're right, we've used universal in two ways
.
You used it one way and Ireally started using it in
another way.
So that's maybe a distinctionwe should have clarified.
So that's maybe a distinctionwe should have clarified.
So Richard Rohr is talkingabout Christ being Christ, the
Logos as John talks about itpresent in Jesus, but maybe
(08:14):
present in other ways in theworld.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, christ made, so God became incarnate, so Christ
became incarnate through theman of Jesus.
And so that's.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Incarnate meaning in flesh, yes, in flesh yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
In human form, in the man of Jesus, but also, all
things have been created in andthrough Christ, and so that's
how we have the presence ofChrist in us as well, and Christ
God makes God self known.
So let's go on that a littlebit.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
One of my concerns with that, my hesitancy with
that sort of viewpoint that Roarlifts up, is that you can end
up in this place, of that youcan.
How do you discern what istruly Christ in showing up in
some other culture if you don'thave the explicitness, the
(09:05):
specificity of Jesus?
Because you could end upblessing anything and everything
and say, well, that's theChrist in that culture, when
maybe it isn't really.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So, yeah, and the understanding of that is that
God is not changing, right?
God is who God is, which is youknow.
You see it through the fruitsof the spirit, through love and
generosity and self-control, andthese things make themselves
known.
This is the understanding,right?
These things make themselvesknown in other cultures across
(09:37):
the world, whether anyonespecifically told them about
Jesus Christ, the man and God,uh, having come to earth for us,
and the whole story, right, thewhole story of you know.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
And I could go at that same way in a theologically
from a different place is that,if we were all created in the
image of God, that there isstill some of that inherent
goodness, of that creation ofthe image of God in all people
everywhere that can recognizegood from evil.
I mean Paul even talks about inRomans 1, they all should know,
(10:17):
because we are created.
So there is that sense For me.
I just keep coming back to thethat to me, the uniqueness of
Christianity, or part of theuniqueness, is that we said God
revealed himself most clearly inflesh in the person of Jesus.
And so that's because there areother value systems that are
(10:38):
out there and that in some levelI still need to judge those
value systems, or I assess themthrough the lens of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
And I think what this does, so what this book does
right the universal Christ andthis understanding does is it
helps kind of answer thequestion if God is such a loving
, good God, then explain to mehow children or people in other
areas of the world that never,ever hear about Jesus, so they
just die and they don't get tobe with God, they don't get to
(11:09):
be with the one who created themand made them.
That makes absolutely no sense,and so this kind of fills that
space, because it's not sayingthat— it's more addressing that
sort of question.
Absolutely, because it's notsaying that if you heard about
Jesus and how God came and thewhole story right of what God
has done in and through you knowthe Jewish people and on, and
(11:32):
you deny it or you, that'sdifferent right, and so it's
addressing Christ, making youknow God, making himself known
in ways that are just beyond ourunderstanding at times, and it
answers some of those questionsas well.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
And you know, in those places, when someone has
asked me through the yearswhether it's in a confirmation
class or someone else, well,what about people who never
heard about Jesus?
Are they all going to hell?
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I go like the God I know is a gracious God, God is
going to handle that.
I don't need to be, that's adecision I don't have to make, I
don't have to understand.
But the other thing for me is,I think the one.
So there's the universal Christ, there's also a universalism
(12:25):
which is the idea you bet thatwhere everyone goes to heaven in
the end.
And that's another idea and thatwas some of the scriptures that
I was pointing to of the ideathat is the God of grace and
love going to eventuallytransform everyone to want to
respond to him.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Well, yeah, and so that's the hard part, right,
Like if the big story is.
That's why I'm kind of diggingand appreciating this
understanding of Christ in a newway the big story if it is God
wanting to bring all people tohimself, make everything whole
and new again, it would makesense that God would work in
(13:04):
ways that aren't just withinthis box, right?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
But again.
And so, yes, the big tensionfor me with that, and while
there's some intrigue with that,the big tension for me is all
of the things that I heard Jesusclearly say, especially the
great commission at the end.
Go, therefore, and makedisciples of all nations,
teaching them to obey all that Ihave commanded you, that there
(13:32):
is a commission upon Christiansto share who Jesus is.
Oh yeah.
And so that the danger for me ofthis, you know, when people
talk well, all people are saved,because everyone's kind of you
know, because a loving Godwouldn't connect For me, we're
then undermining so much of whatJesus called us to be about.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
See and I don't think it needs to do that because we
don't have to you know, jesussays you put your hand to the
plow, don't look back, or you'renot fit for the kingdom of God,
right?
Paul says don't be wishy-washy,you can't sit on both sides of
the fence, right?
So if you're either all in oryou're all out, so you're either
following the ways of Jesus andgoing, either following the
ways of Jesus and going,regardless of how hard it is,
regardless if you're comfortableor not, or you're not.
(14:14):
So there is this understandingof kind of more black and white
when it comes to that.
But I think that I would, evenwhen we think about Christians,
when I think about myself evenWell, that's always the best
place for us to come back to Mo.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
You're right, Go ahead.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
When I think about Christians and myself, right
this understanding that yeah, Ican say Jesus is my Lord and
Savior.
But if I'm not living a lifethat looks like that, if I'm not
knowing what I need to do,that's in Scripture how I need
to have relationships withpeople that forgiveness is not
an option, it's a requirement,it's a commandment.
If I'm not living these thingsout, then really scripture says
(14:58):
you're on the other side, you'renot fit for the kingdom of
heaven, like so you're outanyway.
So it is a king.
That's why thank you Jesus,literally, that we are always
forgiven again and again andwith that same kind of gracious
pouring out on us right to makeus new.
God wants to do that in otherways, with those, maybe, who
(15:20):
don't get to hear about thegospel message.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, and I have no trouble with the idea that God
can work in other ways andcultures before they have heard
of Jesus, and I like whereyou're holding it back to.
But those of us who have heard,we're called to a response.
We're called to you know.
For God so loved the world thathe sent his only son that
(15:43):
whoever believe in him shouldnot be condemned but be saved.
I just brought it up John 3, 16, because I also love John 3,
17,.
That they may not perish buthave eternal life says in 16.
But in verse 17,.
Indeed, god did not send theSon into the world to condemn
(16:04):
the world, but in order that theworld might be saved through
him.
That salvation does comethrough Jesus.
How does it go out to people?
That's on God.
But we are called to keeppointing to the Jesus who we
have come to know, who gave hislife on the cross for us and
taught us what I believe areGod's ways, trying to draw the
(16:29):
world back to himself.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
No.
So and here's a really kind ofinteresting thing that you say
that.
So there, yes, absolutely,there's tons of scripture for
days that we can name.
Matthew 7,.
Jesus is the gate, the way.
1 John 5, 11.
The eternal life is onlythrough God's son.
1 Corinthians 3, 11.
The only foundation is Jesus,right.
(16:51):
So there is all these things,and I cannot but think of
Richard, or not Richard Rohr,jamie Winship, who you know
worked for the CIA.
He did a lot of dismantling ofterrorism in different countries
and he kind of takes thisapproach to where Richard Rohr
is going, that a little bit thatyou don't have to.
(17:16):
He's in a world, part of theworld, that's mostly Muslim and
he's like they don't need tostop being Muslim, they just
need to meet Jesus.
Yes, they need to know Christ,right.
And so he literally introducespeople to who Jesus is and
doesn't say like you have to,you know, step away from being
(17:37):
Muslim, but he welcomes in arelationship with Jesus and so
many of them, their lives havebeen transformed.
So I think it's also thisunderstanding of like we don't
have to say to people you are nolonger Jewish, right, we have a
wonderful woman who works here,candy.
She's Jewish.
She's still Jewish.
She's not not Jewish becauseshe believes Jesus is the
(18:01):
Messiah.
And so when we do have thatopportunity to introduce and to
make other people disciples andto know the whole story, I do
think it is our responsibility.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah, you know one of the.
So I think where we're agreeingis that it is about what God
has done through Christ and thatChrist we meet Christ, the
third person of the Trinity,through.
We meet him through Jesus.
The logos the Christ may havemade God's will known in other
(18:39):
ways, but we have to keeppointing to Jesus because that's
where we've seen it in flesh.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, and so part of this to account, but think of
Mother Teresa and when I was inKolkata, india, and really the
understanding of you know, showpeople Jesus daily.
Use words when necessary, right.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Yeah, St Francis.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, St Francis.
And so she really lived thatout.
That you know.
It's about what you do.
It's about making your beliefsyour life and so making worship
your life.
It's not just Sunday.
You live that out on an everyday, and maybe sometimes words
aren't needed, and for her manytimes they weren't.
(19:20):
And yet people came to knowChrist because of the way she
loved them and her true beliefand why she gave her whole life
to this, was that theirexperience of Christ.
For those moments before theypassed from this life to the
next, she fully believed thatthat encounter then allowed them
(19:41):
to go, be in the presence oftheir creator and of God.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, and one of the other, and we're getting low on
time here.
But one of the other things Iwanted to lift up, mo, is that
people have wrestled with is, oh, you're in, and God saying to
that person, you're out.
That it really was about thatthrough Jesus we meet God's love
(20:25):
and that what heaven is.
What heaven is.
It's not about streets of goldand fish that jump onto my line
that what heaven is about isbeing in the presence of God,
being in the presence of love,being in the presence of Jesus'
grace for us.
And in his book the GreatDivorce, what he describes is
(20:46):
like these people taking thisbus ride from hell to heaven,
and God keeps reaching out topeople and wants them.
But they come into heaven andthey don't want.
It's too loving for them, it'stoo God-focused.
They want their life to befocused on themselves.
So it's not God consigning themto hell.
They consign themselves to hellbecause they don't want to be
(21:08):
in the presence of the wonder ofGod's love and grace.
They want the world to revolvearound them and God's saying now
the world finally revolvesaround the love that I have for
you and they reject it, thatit's not this God condemning,
it's them rejecting, and that,to me, gets God off the hook of
condemning, and so I've alwaysbeen that.
(21:30):
To me, god off the hook ofcondemning, and so I've always
been.
That to me, frees God to be theloving God that God is and that
we don't have to have himconsigning this person in and
out.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Yeah, and I do think we.
I love that, but we do, and Ido think hell is separation from
God right, and so God iscontinuously pursuing us.
I think the how is what we needto be far more open about the
truth that God is mysterious.
God's ways are not our ways,and for us to even think we
could comprehend them fully orunderstand them or put them in a
(22:02):
box, I think is foolish of us,because God wants to make all
things whole and bring allthings and all peoples to
himself, and so why would Godnot do this in some really
creative and different ways?
And people only come to knowwho Jesus is in and through
people, right?
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I think.
But as we've also said, mo, thetension on the other side being
open to the mysterious waysthat God works, but also not
this like well, god's loving, soGod's going to make it work?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
No, it's not a cheat that we become.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
you know where Jesus said not everyone who calls me
Lord, lord, will enter thekingdom of heaven.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Because we can get this arrogant sense like well.
I'm good, you're good, it's allgood.
God's got to love us all, usall.
But our response to lettingthat love transform us and being
open to the I mean the wordsalvation literally comes from
(23:01):
salve, s-a-l-v.
Healing the healing that Godwants to do in our lives.
If we resist, that, god doesn'tforce himself on us.
So that to me, the distinctionis are we open to it?
Because, God keeps coming to us.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Right, and I think it's.
When we talk about cheap gracetoo.
I think it's important to sayyou know, people who go to
church all the time are in thechurch, profess Jesus as their
Lord and Savior and yet don'tlive those things out right?
Do they go to heaven, do theynot?
Like you're professing it withyour mouth but you're not living
it out, and so that becomes aspace, too, where it's kind of
(23:35):
like, because there's scripturethat shows it's not just
professing with your mouth, it'salso with your life.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, and I think this is where and then
remembering Matthew 7, we don'tjudge.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
No.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, and so I think we need to continue to proclaim
Jesus, we need to say it's allabout what God has done, not
about what we do.
And yet Jesus wants to lead uson a journey in our lives and we
just keep saying that, and howGod works it out in the end, we
leave that up to God.
We just keep doing what hecalls us to do.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Otherwise we have no idea if they're going to heaven
or not.
We're still unpacking, guys.
We need your help to continueunpacking.
But I would love to hear Idon't know about you, but I
would love to hear what you guyshave to say on this topic, what
your thoughts are, because thiscan get deep.
It does, it really does.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
It does, and so like, share and if you have comments,
please do that, and if you haveother ideas of topics we want
to wrestle with together, weinvite you to send those in.
Next time, on Unpacking Truths,is there a favorite costume you
had as a child or a favoritething?
Oh, how long did you trick ortreat Pastor Mo?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Well, I, you know, I trick or treated with my kids
for a long time and I used to dothe whole thing where you're
like, oh, I have to check thatcandy, and of course I only
checked like the really goodchocolate ones, Smart smart mom,
but they caught on to me pretty.
Yeah, they did and then.
So I had to start bringing myown bag and pretending I was
collecting for the sick kid athome.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Every year there was a sick kid at home.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I just tried to you know leverage with my kids to
say, hey, my protective presenceshould earn some sort of reward
.
Like the Heath Bars or theThree Musketeers.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They're like we're 16 , Dad, we're fine.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
You don't have to come with us.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.