August 13, 2024 • 24 mins
Can the ancient texts of the Bible still speak to us today in a modern world? On this episode of Unpacking Truths, join Pastor Kendall and Pastor Mo as they navigate the delicate terrain between timeless and time-bound scriptures. We begin by dissecting directives from Deuteronomy 13 and Paul's instructions to the Corinthians, revealing why some biblical commands were meant for their historical context and not for today's application. Through this, we emphasize the critical importance of correct scriptural interpretation to truly understand and hear God's word.
Ever felt the frustration of being told you're not taking the Bible seriously? We confront this head-on, diving into the necessity for every Christian to wrestle with discerning which parts of Scripture are eternal and which were specific to their time. Using Jesus' teachings and the ultimate commandment to love God and our neighbors, we explore interpretative methods that foster unity and love within the faith community. Additionally, we touch upon Paul's concept of Christian liberty, urging a non-judgmental approach to differing convictions within the church.
From the significance of beards to the principle of modesty and beyond, we navigate various scriptures to distinguish between cultural practices and timeless principles. Highlighting the perspective of Martin Luther, we remind listeners that the Bible's primary purpose is to bring Christ into our lives, shaping us with God's love and peace. Engage with us at unpackingtruths.com and share your thoughts and struggles, helping to foster a deeper understanding of living out faith in today's world. Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe to spread the love and insight.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
So today, on Unpacking Truths,we are going to be talking about
scripture, some of which istimeless, meant for all time,
all purpose, across the universe.
All that good stuff, and someof which should really be held
in context and was only toaddress specific things or
answer specific questions.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Grab your coffee, open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Let us kick this off with you,kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, before I do that, before we do that, we just
have to do a shout out.
Thank you to Blake and his teamthat put our new tables
together.
We're so grateful, Thanks.
We're now official.
I guess, maybe now We'll see.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I am ridiculously grateful no longer hitting my
knees on that table and catchingsome really scary angles.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So thank you.
So to the topic now Mo.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
More important things Scripture.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, Well, you so to the topic.
Now Mo More important thingsscripture, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well scripture.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's a good thing, yeah, Mo.
I think there is thisfundamental reality that the
profundity and the power ofscripture is because it is God's
word, but it was recorded overand written down over a few
thousand years of time, and sowe have to to hear God speak, we
have to go back and to hear itcorrectly.
(01:33):
And there's a danger that,while we want to elevate
Scripture and take the Biblevery seriously which I know, you
do, which I do, which allChristian believers do but we
have to wrestle with there areparts of it that speaks
specifically to a situation thatmay not be applicable at all
(01:54):
times and some that are timeless.
So let me give an example.
There's a verse in Deuteronomy13 that I think we would all
agree is not timeless.
It was time bound that God mayhave given this word to his
people at a certain time.
So in Deuteronomy, 13,.
(02:14):
God says if anyone secretlyentices you saying let us go
serve other gods who neither younor your ancestors have known,
you must not yield to or heedany such persons.
I think we would all agree withthat.
Yeah, we don't want to heed andlisten to people who are
leading us astray, but go on.
But you shall surely kill them,Stone them to death for trying
(02:35):
to turn you away from the Lord,your God.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I mean.
So we're not allowed to stonethose who try to turn us away.
No, we are no longer stoning,mo.
Okay, no stoning allowed.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, so please drop the ones that you have in your
hands there Mid-throw droppingstone now.
And so that's one of thosescriptures that God may have
needed to say that dramatic wordto his people at one time, but
none of us are preaching on thisscripture and telling
congregations in our church, orin any church, to go throw
(03:06):
stones.
Let's hope not.
Let's hope not at people whoare trying to lead them astray.
We should maybe not engage withthose people, we should step
away, but we shouldn't stonethem.
And so that's one that wasclearly time bound to that
moment, for whatever purpose.
God was needing to say that,but that's not a timeless
(03:26):
scripture for all time, and sothis is, for me, one of the
important things is, I think allChristians at some point do
this, use this filter when theycome at scripture that they
recognize some were time-boundand some were timeless.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, and even those who are, I'm finding are
fundamental, tend to befundamental Christians where
they're like.
I take the Bible verbatim,everything it says, and you know
, because the Bible is veryserious, the word of God is
serious and and yet they do, allof us, you're right, they do
take certain things.
You know they don't want to beled astray, and yet they're not
(04:04):
going to stone someone to deathfor having a different opinion
theologically than them or adifferent opinion about God.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, or even a different interpretation of
Scripture.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So I think yeah, and that is where I think this is a
crucial topic, because it isabout how do we hear God
correctly from Scripture.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It is incredibly important, and I know the pastor
of what Saddleback Church, rickWarren.
He recently just had anepiphany, as he was doing, you
know, diving deeper intoscripture and women's roles
within you know, preaching andteaching, and he had an epiphany
that, oh my goodness, womenhave been doing these things.
(04:43):
God has called women to dothese things, and so he's hired
some female pastors into hischurch because he realized that
there were questions that werebeing answered by Paul at that
time and they weren't universalprinciples to be set for women
for all time, to never bechanged.
(05:03):
And so when I think of this, Ithink of Corinthians 14, where
Paul instructs the women to staysilent go home, ask your
husbands if you have a question.
And we have to look at thebigger context of what was going
on in Corinthians 14, which ishe was addressing orderly
worship.
Worship was being disrupted,whether it was tongues or people
(05:25):
stepping up and askingquestions, you know and it was
like the flow of what was beingexpressed about God was
continuously being interrupted,which makes sense for that time,
because women were not taughtthe Torah, they were not taught
about God as the men were, andso every five seconds.
I could only imagine thesewomen being like wait a minute,
(05:46):
what is, and you know what doesthis mean and what does that
mean?
And could you imagine trying topreach and every two seconds
it's like wait, who is Jesusagain?
Wait, what is?
You know what is thiscommandment?
I mean they had their knowledgebase was, so you know, so much
lower than so if they hadquestions, just being instructed
(06:07):
, hey, ask your husband at homesome of these things if you're
kind of confused, and then comeback, you know.
And just so that worship isn'tbeing disrupted 24-7.
Not that women should neverspeak.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, and that's interesting, I hadn't heard that
about Rick Warren's newviewpoint, but I think it is
that classic place whereChristians have wrestled with,
and so I'm not, I don't want toput words in his mouth, but what
it sounds like you're saying isthat at one point he understood
that it is a timeless word, andhe's now come to recognize it's
(06:38):
a time bound word, and so andthat has happened within the
Christian church, I mean it'shappened around where- Head
coverings.
Head coverings the numerousother issues where we thought,
oh, this is the way it alwayshad to be.
And then we came to go like, no, that was time bound, it's not
(07:02):
timeless for all times.
It's not timeless for all times, I think.
Obviously, scripture talksabout slavery and assumes
slavery is just a natural partof the life of the world.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and I think it's really important to address
that.
The understanding of slavery inthe ancient world and in other
parts of the world is extremelydifferent than our understanding
of slavery in America.
Indentured servants, that ideaof being born into and how
they're cared for I mean not tosay that all you know, all
indentured servants at all timeswere cared for with love or as
(07:37):
part of the family.
However, the way slavery tookplace in America was atrocious
and horrible and evil.
Slavery took place in Americawas atrocious and horrible and
evil.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But the danger then becomes is, because slavery is
not spoken of in only negativeterms, it's just sort of assumed
as natural that that's part ofthe reason that Christians for
hundreds of years said, well,see, the Bible talks about
slavery.
Okay, and so they took thosewhat I believe were time-bound
(08:07):
understandings of slavery in oneway, or maybe just time-bound,
and even if that wasn't what Godintended, I think God continues
to reveal more of himself, butit will always stay in alignment
with the timeless truths ofScripture.
Yeah, and so I think it isimportant for us as Christians
(08:27):
today, in interpreting Scripture, to really wrestle with these
questions Is this a time-boundmessage, or is this a timeless
message?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and I think interpretation really matters
too, because when I think of 1Timothy 2, where women are told,
you know, women can't teach orthey can't have authority over a
man, I mean the word used forauthority is only used once in
the New Testament and itactually means like a usurping,
a domineering.
And so, and what was going onin the wider culture at that
(08:58):
time too, was Artemis, a goddess, was being worshipped, excuse
me, sorry, was being worshipped,and so there was this idea
already out in the wider culturethat women were closer to God
than men.
And so they're being told hey,when you're teaching, don't do
it in a domineering type, youknow, belittling your better
(09:19):
than fashion.
And that's what's beingaddressed, not that women
shouldn't be teaching or everhave authority, you know, over a
man, because Phoebe taughtApollos.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think this does.
This whole question of timelessand time-bound one of the areas
that has frustrated me is thatI sometimes feel like there are
other Christian pastors or otherChristian groups or
(09:53):
denominations that say, well, wetake the Bible seriously and
you, the way you read Scripturelike Kendall, the way you do,
you don't take the Bibleseriously.
I take Scripture very seriously, and so it frustrates me when
some people say, well, I take itseriously and you don't.
And I'm saying I take it veryseriously, I stand under.
(10:15):
I have to keep submittingmyself to God's word, keep
listening to scripture.
I just want to challenge othersto say for us to recognize that
every single Christian today hasto wrestle with the question in
some parts of scripture EveryChristian says are time bound
and don't apply to today.
So you don't get to say, well,I take scripture seriously and
(10:36):
you don't, I take it seriouslytoo.
What we disagree on and what wedebate and where Christians
continue to wrestle with, well,is this specific topic timeless
or time bound?
I mean, we were just talkingabout the question about women's
roles in church.
I mean you pointed to.
I mean one of the other areasand we didn't say we were going
to go to, but that this relatesto is people are wrestling the
(10:58):
questions of how do weunderstand the role of LGBT
people within the church, andthat's one of those places where
Christians are wrestling.
Is this timeless or is thistime bound?
And we all have to wrestle andwe may come to different
perspectives on that.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
And then looking at the story of God holistically,
like looking at the whole storyand how all peoples and all
nations are to be brought to Godin a loving relationship.
And God speaks about.
The sun shines on those who areevil as well as good.
I water, I provide abundantly,I love all my children and all I
(11:37):
want you to do is love right,love of me, love of self, so
that you can love others well.
And so if that's what wedefault on, that's our big
number one thing to default on.
I don't think we have the rightto cast out or divide or
separate.
That is very contrary to who weare as believers in Jesus as
(12:00):
our Savior right.
He brings together, he unifiesin a love that is beyond what we
can do by ourselves.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, I mean, I think where you're pointing to is the
question of how do we discernwhat parts of Scripture are
timeless and what are time-boundRight.
And here are some of theprinciples that I use when I
wrestle with those questions,when I'm reading Scripture, when
I'm trying to listen to Godspeak.
Yeah, first one that I use issimply the filter of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Jesus is truly God's Word come in human flesh.
John talks about in thebeginning was the Word and the
Word was with God.
He says Jesus is the Word, waswith God.
He says Jesus is the livingWord of God.
So that when I'm trying to readScripture I always read it
through the lens of Jesus.
What did Jesus have to say?
I mean Jesus actually at anumber of points said you have
(12:48):
heard it.
Said, but I say to you, I meanhe did that filtering.
He said you heard this OldTestament Scripture, but let me
tell you really how tounderstand that.
So for me, the first filter indiscerning what is timeless and
what is time bound is looking toJesus.
How did Jesus engage thatscripture?
How did Jesus engage that topic?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
What did Jesus say about it?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
What did he say about it?
I think the second thing is, isthat a second filter that I use
is sort of where I think youare pointing, mo, is that whole
idea of when Jesus said, whensomeone asked him what is the
greatest commandment, he saidwell, there are actually two
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, soul, mind and
strength, and love your neighbor, as yourself that you are just
pointing to love.
But he pointed it yeah, loveGod, love your neighbor.
(13:31):
And so for me, that's thesecond filter that I use is when
I I should not be pulling ascripture out of the Bible and
applying it in a way thatdoesn't help people to love God
or love their neighbor.
Yes, and so for me, that's thatsecond filter that I use in
(13:53):
trying to discern when I'mwrestling with any of these
hot-button topics or anyscripture and trying to apply it
to today, or even what Paulsays in who we're Called to Be
is, you know, blessed are thepeacemakers, right, Well?
Jesus said that one.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right, but I'm saying the bringing together.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Sorry, shouldn't call out my partner here, no don't
worry about it.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
But I was going to talk about Paul, too, and how we
are the body right and how weare to come together.
And so, looking at that, even asa third filter of, is this
something, is the way I'm acting, is what I'm saying, something
that is going to bring ustogether in a unifying way that
brings peace and is centered inlove, or is it something that's
going to divide, because Godnever seeks to divide but seeks
(14:36):
to bring together, and loveconquers all we're told, and
love truth to the light, whichis, you know, that we can see
things differently and still be,you know, centered in God.
And I think about Romans 12,with Christian liberty, right,
like Paul goes on to say, likesome of you say, this is okay to
(14:59):
eat.
Some of you, you know, becauseof your convictions and you know
your views, you don't want toeat these certain foods.
Or circumcision.
Some of you say you have to becircumcised.
It doesn't matter.
Let each person live out theirwalk with God on their own,
without judgment, and you dowhat is best for you when it
(15:19):
comes to some of these things.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So, giving liberty to some of those of these things,
so giving liberty to some ofthose you know and I think that
I think Paul was so wise inpointing to that Christian
liberty, because we have atendency to say, is this the
right way or is that the rightway?
And you know, and we want it tobe black or white, it's one or
the other.
And Paul allowed this freedom,as you said, to say well, some
will see it this way, some willsee it that way.
(15:42):
Let each live in it.
Don't come, don't jump downeach other's throats on it.
Trust in that and for me that'sthe language that I've used is
just acknowledging committedChristians can see some things
differently, and I don't have toquestion your commitment to
Jesus just because you see thisissue differently than maybe I
(16:06):
do.
We have to keep coming back toJesus, because it may be that
I'm seeing it wrong, it may bethat you're seeing it wrong, or
maybe Jesus is saying I'm okaywith either one of those.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I think of some of thesescriptures right Like men should
keep their facial hair, andthere's lots of Psalm 133.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Shaved this morning.
You should have told me not to.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I know right.
Psalm 133 talks about the highpriest Aaron having a beard, and
Isaiah is spoken about how theMessiah will have a beard and it
will be plucked out, right.
So there are these things thatmen are to have beards.
Leviticus 19 says you shall notmar the corners of your beard
or destroy it, right.
So that's why a lot of OrthodoxJewish people have longer on
(16:52):
the sides, and so there is this,because they view that as a way
of being-.
Yeah, and they view it as a wayin their walk with God.
This is what I do, this is whatI offer you, god, as a living
sacrifice.
I'm doing this for you.
It becomes a symbol that isbeautiful, filled with love, to
(17:13):
mark their relationship with God.
And yet for others it's like Idon't think that's that big of a
deal.
Actually, what's more importantis not being dishonest.
So I make it a point every dayto you know, be honest, no
matter how hard it is.
When my wife comes up to me andsays, do I look good in this?
And you're like no what do I do?
(17:34):
No, you say you know what, honey, I think that other dress might
be more flattering.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You will get in trouble for that comment too, Mo
I don't know, really.
Yes, I don't know, I think so.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You look beautiful in everything.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes, that is the line man, that is the line you look
gorgeous no matter what you wear.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That is true, you bet so yeah, you bet.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And those are scriptures again that I would
say are time-bound.
Yeah, but say are time bound,but I love how you lifted it up.
Even if it is time bound and itis not necessarily required of
everyone, someone could stillchoose to live into it as a way
of trying to honor God.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, there can be timeless bits of wisdom within
some of these time bound things.
So, within the scripture thattalks about women not wearing
pearls and lab, you know, veryexpensive clothing, or gold in
your hair, or silver, because Iguess they used to or braided
(18:36):
hair, but actually they'respeaking of how they used to
braid gold, pieces of strands ofgold in their hair, which, by
the way, I think is probablygorgeous, which would have been
like I was like, oh yes, I'mreally liking this and I like.
So the idea behind it, right,is to not create divisions,
(18:57):
right, so to not come into aspace where others are going to
feel so much less than whensomeone's flaunting their wealth
in a way.
Yeah, like it's not.
It's actually about loving yourneighbor.
Like, how can I step in thisspace where you know, because I
do like really nice clothes andI love shoes, oh, my goodness,
get me a.
I love a hot shoe.
(19:18):
And you know, this idea ofbraiding gold in my hair, I kind
of am digging that too.
However, if it is somethingthat if I walked into a space
with, that where it made othersfeel bad about themselves, well
then don't do it, becausebecause that's not loving right
To your, to your neighbor, toyour sister in Christ or to your
brother in Christ.
You know, don't talk about thefact you have boats and multiple
(19:41):
homes and different things If,if the space you're in, those
other people don't have thosethings or they're actually kind
of struggling.
And that's what it means to beloving.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, you're right, and there isn't a requirement
not to do that, but, out of love, we choose not to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Can I just bring up that?
You know, in Exodus 22, we'retold that we are allowed to kill
an intruder who comes into ourhome, but only at night.
If it's daytime, no killingtime.
So do you think that one'stimeless or time bound?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think we're debating that in the laws of the
states of this country rightnow.
You know, I think the otherthing, mo, for me that becomes
critical in understandingScripture is I love what Luther
said and I took a year of no,two years of high school German,
so I know just a little bit,but he had this phrase was
(20:38):
Christum triped and what it wasthat what carries Christ, what
it was that what carries Christ,that his point of the Bible is.
The importance of scripture isnot that it's this chiseled in
stone moral code that we sort ofslam on each other.
That what the Bible is about is.
It is about carrying Christ tous.
(20:59):
That what the Bible's purposeis is for those of us who live
now 2,000 years removed fromJesus.
It allows us to hear Jesusspeak.
That, if Jesus is God, come inthe flesh.
That the Bible is importantbecause it allows us to connect,
to hear, to listen to, to beshaped by and molded by Jesus.
(21:20):
Jesus is the heart of scripture.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Absolutely, and as followers of Jesus who are
called to look like Jesus,always going back to that and
thinking am I living out God'slove in the world?
Am I living out God's peace inthe world?
Am I doing things and speakingwords that bring us closer
together to be the body togetherto live out this kingdom, or
(21:42):
not?
And so yeah, yeah.
Well, let us know what you guysthink about some of these
timeless or time-boundscriptures or things that you
may have grappled with,struggled with, maybe with
friends or family, or just beenconfused about.
We'd love to hear that.
We'd love for you to leave somecomments If you have any
questions.
We really dig unpacking thesetruths with you because you know
(22:05):
what, what God is always doing,something new and always
speaking next time on unpackingtruths.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I'm mindful that.
You know the enemy will try tostifle that, even if it's just
with a thought, because if hehas me there the work is done,
he doesn't have to do anything'mgoing to if I'm walking it out
in that mindset, you know it'sjust easy.
And so I think I try to be moreintentional to paying attention
, because it always shows up thesame way.
(22:33):
I mean cause he's not creative,so it's always if I pay
attention.
I always pray that God gives mestrategy to pay attention to
those things, because it alwaysshows up the same way every time
, it's never different.
So I'm, like I have to bemindful of when this is not real
, this fear, you know that's notreal.
So pushing past that and that'swhere my faith comes in.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
All right.
So today, on Unpacking Truths,we are going to be talking about
scripture, some of which istimeless, meant for all time,
all purpose, across the universe.
All that good stuff, and someof which should really be held
in context and was only toaddress specific things or
answer specific questions.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm Pastor Kendall.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
And I'm Pastor Mo.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Welcome to Unpacking Truths, where we dive deep into
God's timeless truths for ourlives today.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Grab your coffee, open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Let us kick this off with you,kendall.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, before I do that, before we do that, we just
have to do a shout out.
Thank you to Blake and his teamthat put our new tables
together.
We're so grateful, Thanks.
We're now official.
I guess, maybe now We'll see.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I am ridiculously grateful no longer hitting my
knees on that table and catchingsome really scary angles.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So thank you.
So to the topic now Mo.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
More important things Scripture.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, Well, you so to the topic.
Now Mo More important thingsscripture, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well scripture.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
That's a good thing, yeah, Mo.
I think there is thisfundamental reality that the
profundity and the power ofscripture is because it is God's
word, but it was recorded overand written down over a few
thousand years of time, and sowe have to to hear God speak, we
have to go back and to hear itcorrectly.
(01:33):
And there's a danger that,while we want to elevate
Scripture and take the Biblevery seriously which I know, you
do, which I do, which allChristian believers do but we
have to wrestle with there areparts of it that speaks
specifically to a situation thatmay not be applicable at all
(01:54):
times and some that are timeless.
So let me give an example.
There's a verse in Deuteronomy13 that I think we would all
agree is not timeless.
It was time bound that God mayhave given this word to his
people at a certain time.
So in Deuteronomy, 13,.
(02:14):
God says if anyone secretlyentices you saying let us go
serve other gods who neither younor your ancestors have known,
you must not yield to or heedany such persons.
I think we would all agree withthat.
Yeah, we don't want to heed andlisten to people who are
leading us astray, but go on.
But you shall surely kill them,Stone them to death for trying
(02:35):
to turn you away from the Lord,your God.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I mean.
So we're not allowed to stonethose who try to turn us away.
No, we are no longer stoning,mo.
Okay, no stoning allowed.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, so please drop the ones that you have in your
hands there Mid-throw droppingstone now.
And so that's one of thosescriptures that God may have
needed to say that dramatic wordto his people at one time, but
none of us are preaching on thisscripture and telling
congregations in our church, orin any church, to go throw
(03:06):
stones.
Let's hope not.
Let's hope not at people whoare trying to lead them astray.
We should maybe not engage withthose people, we should step
away, but we shouldn't stonethem.
And so that's one that wasclearly time bound to that
moment, for whatever purpose.
God was needing to say that,but that's not a timeless
(03:26):
scripture for all time, and sothis is, for me, one of the
important things is, I think allChristians at some point do
this, use this filter when theycome at scripture that they
recognize some were time-boundand some were timeless.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, and even those who are, I'm finding are
fundamental, tend to befundamental Christians where
they're like.
I take the Bible verbatim,everything it says, and you know
, because the Bible is veryserious, the word of God is
serious and and yet they do, allof us, you're right, they do
take certain things.
You know they don't want to beled astray, and yet they're not
(04:04):
going to stone someone to deathfor having a different opinion
theologically than them or adifferent opinion about God.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, or even a different interpretation of
Scripture.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So I think yeah, and that is where I think this is a
crucial topic, because it isabout how do we hear God
correctly from Scripture.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It is incredibly important, and I know the pastor
of what Saddleback Church, rickWarren.
He recently just had anepiphany, as he was doing, you
know, diving deeper intoscripture and women's roles
within you know, preaching andteaching, and he had an epiphany
that, oh my goodness, womenhave been doing these things.
(04:43):
God has called women to dothese things, and so he's hired
some female pastors into hischurch because he realized that
there were questions that werebeing answered by Paul at that
time and they weren't universalprinciples to be set for women
for all time, to never bechanged.
(05:03):
And so when I think of this, Ithink of Corinthians 14, where
Paul instructs the women to staysilent go home, ask your
husbands if you have a question.
And we have to look at thebigger context of what was going
on in Corinthians 14, which ishe was addressing orderly
worship.
Worship was being disrupted,whether it was tongues or people
(05:25):
stepping up and askingquestions, you know and it was
like the flow of what was beingexpressed about God was
continuously being interrupted,which makes sense for that time,
because women were not taughtthe Torah, they were not taught
about God as the men were, andso every five seconds.
I could only imagine thesewomen being like wait a minute,
(05:46):
what is, and you know what doesthis mean and what does that
mean?
And could you imagine trying topreach and every two seconds
it's like wait, who is Jesusagain?
Wait, what is?
You know what is thiscommandment?
I mean they had their knowledgebase was, so you know, so much
lower than so if they hadquestions, just being instructed
(06:07):
, hey, ask your husband at homesome of these things if you're
kind of confused, and then comeback, you know.
And just so that worship isn'tbeing disrupted 24-7.
Not that women should neverspeak.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, and that's interesting, I hadn't heard that
about Rick Warren's newviewpoint, but I think it is
that classic place whereChristians have wrestled with,
and so I'm not, I don't want toput words in his mouth, but what
it sounds like you're saying isthat at one point he understood
that it is a timeless word, andhe's now come to recognize it's
(06:38):
a time bound word, and so andthat has happened within the
Christian church, I mean it'shappened around where- Head
coverings.
Head coverings the numerousother issues where we thought,
oh, this is the way it alwayshad to be.
And then we came to go like, no, that was time bound, it's not
(07:02):
timeless for all times.
It's not timeless for all times, I think.
Obviously, scripture talksabout slavery and assumes
slavery is just a natural partof the life of the world.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, and I think it's really important to address
that.
The understanding of slavery inthe ancient world and in other
parts of the world is extremelydifferent than our understanding
of slavery in America.
Indentured servants, that ideaof being born into and how
they're cared for I mean not tosay that all you know, all
indentured servants at all timeswere cared for with love or as
(07:37):
part of the family.
However, the way slavery tookplace in America was atrocious
and horrible and evil.
Slavery took place in Americawas atrocious and horrible and
evil.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But the danger then becomes is, because slavery is
not spoken of in only negativeterms, it's just sort of assumed
as natural that that's part ofthe reason that Christians for
hundreds of years said, well,see, the Bible talks about
slavery.
Okay, and so they took thosewhat I believe were time-bound
(08:07):
understandings of slavery in oneway, or maybe just time-bound,
and even if that wasn't what Godintended, I think God continues
to reveal more of himself, butit will always stay in alignment
with the timeless truths ofScripture.
Yeah, and so I think it isimportant for us as Christians
(08:27):
today, in interpreting Scripture, to really wrestle with these
questions Is this a time-boundmessage, or is this a timeless
message?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, and I think interpretation really matters
too, because when I think of 1Timothy 2, where women are told,
you know, women can't teach orthey can't have authority over a
man, I mean the word used forauthority is only used once in
the New Testament and itactually means like a usurping,
a domineering.
And so, and what was going onin the wider culture at that
(08:58):
time too, was Artemis, a goddess, was being worshipped, excuse
me, sorry, was being worshipped,and so there was this idea
already out in the wider culturethat women were closer to God
than men.
And so they're being told hey,when you're teaching, don't do
it in a domineering type, youknow, belittling your better
(09:19):
than fashion.
And that's what's beingaddressed, not that women
shouldn't be teaching or everhave authority, you know, over a
man, because Phoebe taughtApollos.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So I think this does.
This whole question of timelessand time-bound one of the areas
that has frustrated me is thatI sometimes feel like there are
other Christian pastors or otherChristian groups or
(09:53):
denominations that say, well, wetake the Bible seriously and
you, the way you read Scripturelike Kendall, the way you do,
you don't take the Bibleseriously.
I take Scripture very seriously, and so it frustrates me when
some people say, well, I take itseriously and you don't.
And I'm saying I take it veryseriously, I stand under.
(10:15):
I have to keep submittingmyself to God's word, keep
listening to scripture.
I just want to challenge othersto say for us to recognize that
every single Christian today hasto wrestle with the question in
some parts of scripture EveryChristian says are time bound
and don't apply to today.
So you don't get to say, well,I take scripture seriously and
(10:36):
you don't, I take it seriouslytoo.
What we disagree on and what wedebate and where Christians
continue to wrestle with, well,is this specific topic timeless
or time bound?
I mean, we were just talkingabout the question about women's
roles in church.
I mean you pointed to.
I mean one of the other areasand we didn't say we were going
to go to, but that this relatesto is people are wrestling the
(10:58):
questions of how do weunderstand the role of LGBT
people within the church, andthat's one of those places where
Christians are wrestling.
Is this timeless or is thistime bound?
And we all have to wrestle andwe may come to different
perspectives on that.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
And then looking at the story of God holistically,
like looking at the whole storyand how all peoples and all
nations are to be brought to Godin a loving relationship.
And God speaks about.
The sun shines on those who areevil as well as good.
I water, I provide abundantly,I love all my children and all I
(11:37):
want you to do is love right,love of me, love of self, so
that you can love others well.
And so if that's what wedefault on, that's our big
number one thing to default on.
I don't think we have the rightto cast out or divide or
separate.
That is very contrary to who weare as believers in Jesus as
(12:00):
our Savior right.
He brings together, he unifiesin a love that is beyond what we
can do by ourselves.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Well, I mean, I think where you're pointing to is the
question of how do we discernwhat parts of Scripture are
timeless and what are time-boundRight.
And here are some of theprinciples that I use when I
wrestle with those questions,when I'm reading Scripture, when
I'm trying to listen to Godspeak.
Yeah, first one that I use issimply the filter of Jesus.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Jesus is truly God's Word come in human flesh.
John talks about in thebeginning was the Word and the
Word was with God.
He says Jesus is the Word, waswith God.
He says Jesus is the livingWord of God.
So that when I'm trying to readScripture I always read it
through the lens of Jesus.
What did Jesus have to say?
I mean Jesus actually at anumber of points said you have
(12:48):
heard it.
Said, but I say to you, I meanhe did that filtering.
He said you heard this OldTestament Scripture, but let me
tell you really how tounderstand that.
So for me, the first filter indiscerning what is timeless and
what is time bound is looking toJesus.
How did Jesus engage thatscripture?
How did Jesus engage that topic?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
What did Jesus say about it?
Speaker 2 (13:09):
What did he say about it?
I think the second thing is, isthat a second filter that I use
is sort of where I think youare pointing, mo, is that whole
idea of when Jesus said, whensomeone asked him what is the
greatest commandment, he saidwell, there are actually two
Love the Lord, your God, withall your heart, soul, mind and
strength, and love your neighbor, as yourself that you are just
pointing to love.
But he pointed it yeah, loveGod, love your neighbor.
(13:31):
And so for me, that's thesecond filter that I use is when
I I should not be pulling ascripture out of the Bible and
applying it in a way thatdoesn't help people to love God
or love their neighbor.
Yes, and so for me, that's thatsecond filter that I use in
(13:53):
trying to discern when I'mwrestling with any of these
hot-button topics or anyscripture and trying to apply it
to today, or even what Paulsays in who we're Called to Be
is, you know, blessed are thepeacemakers, right, Well?
Jesus said that one.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right, but I'm saying the bringing together.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Sorry, shouldn't call out my partner here, no don't
worry about it.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
But I was going to talk about Paul, too, and how we
are the body right and how weare to come together.
And so, looking at that, even asa third filter of, is this
something, is the way I'm acting, is what I'm saying, something
that is going to bring ustogether in a unifying way that
brings peace and is centered inlove, or is it something that's
going to divide, because Godnever seeks to divide but seeks
(14:36):
to bring together, and loveconquers all we're told, and
love truth to the light, whichis, you know, that we can see
things differently and still be,you know, centered in God.
And I think about Romans 12,with Christian liberty, right,
like Paul goes on to say, likesome of you say, this is okay to
(14:59):
eat.
Some of you, you know, becauseof your convictions and you know
your views, you don't want toeat these certain foods.
Or circumcision.
Some of you say you have to becircumcised.
It doesn't matter.
Let each person live out theirwalk with God on their own,
without judgment, and you dowhat is best for you when it
(15:19):
comes to some of these things.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
So, giving liberty to some of those of these things,
so giving liberty to some ofthose you know and I think that
I think Paul was so wise inpointing to that Christian
liberty, because we have atendency to say, is this the
right way or is that the rightway?
And you know, and we want it tobe black or white, it's one or
the other.
And Paul allowed this freedom,as you said, to say well, some
will see it this way, some willsee it that way.
(15:42):
Let each live in it.
Don't come, don't jump downeach other's throats on it.
Trust in that and for me that'sthe language that I've used is
just acknowledging committedChristians can see some things
differently, and I don't have toquestion your commitment to
Jesus just because you see thisissue differently than maybe I
(16:06):
do.
We have to keep coming back toJesus, because it may be that
I'm seeing it wrong, it may bethat you're seeing it wrong, or
maybe Jesus is saying I'm okaywith either one of those.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I think of some of thesescriptures right Like men should
keep their facial hair, andthere's lots of Psalm 133.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Shaved this morning.
You should have told me not to.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
I know right.
Psalm 133 talks about the highpriest Aaron having a beard, and
Isaiah is spoken about how theMessiah will have a beard and it
will be plucked out, right.
So there are these things thatmen are to have beards.
Leviticus 19 says you shall notmar the corners of your beard
or destroy it, right.
So that's why a lot of OrthodoxJewish people have longer on
(16:52):
the sides, and so there is this,because they view that as a way
of being-.
Yeah, and they view it as a wayin their walk with God.
This is what I do, this is whatI offer you, god, as a living
sacrifice.
I'm doing this for you.
It becomes a symbol that isbeautiful, filled with love, to
(17:13):
mark their relationship with God.
And yet for others it's like Idon't think that's that big of a
deal.
Actually, what's more importantis not being dishonest.
So I make it a point every dayto you know, be honest, no
matter how hard it is.
When my wife comes up to me andsays, do I look good in this?
And you're like no what do I do?
(17:34):
No, you say you know what, honey, I think that other dress might
be more flattering.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You will get in trouble for that comment too, Mo
I don't know, really.
Yes, I don't know, I think so.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You look beautiful in everything.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Yes, that is the line man, that is the line you look
gorgeous no matter what you wear.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That is true, you bet so yeah, you bet.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
And those are scriptures again that I would
say are time-bound.
Yeah, but say are time bound,but I love how you lifted it up.
Even if it is time bound and itis not necessarily required of
everyone, someone could stillchoose to live into it as a way
of trying to honor God.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Yeah, there can be timeless bits of wisdom within
some of these time bound things.
So, within the scripture thattalks about women not wearing
pearls and lab, you know, veryexpensive clothing, or gold in
your hair, or silver, because Iguess they used to or braided
(18:36):
hair, but actually they'respeaking of how they used to
braid gold, pieces of strands ofgold in their hair, which, by
the way, I think is probablygorgeous, which would have been
like I was like, oh yes, I'mreally liking this and I like.
So the idea behind it, right,is to not create divisions,
(18:57):
right, so to not come into aspace where others are going to
feel so much less than whensomeone's flaunting their wealth
in a way.
Yeah, like it's not.
It's actually about loving yourneighbor.
Like, how can I step in thisspace where you know, because I
do like really nice clothes andI love shoes, oh, my goodness,
get me a.
I love a hot shoe.
(19:18):
And you know, this idea ofbraiding gold in my hair, I kind
of am digging that too.
However, if it is somethingthat if I walked into a space
with, that where it made othersfeel bad about themselves, well
then don't do it, becausebecause that's not loving right
To your, to your neighbor, toyour sister in Christ or to your
brother in Christ.
You know, don't talk about thefact you have boats and multiple
(19:41):
homes and different things If,if the space you're in, those
other people don't have thosethings or they're actually kind
of struggling.
And that's what it means to beloving.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, you're right, and there isn't a requirement
not to do that, but, out of love, we choose not to do that.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Can I just bring up that?
You know, in Exodus 22, we'retold that we are allowed to kill
an intruder who comes into ourhome, but only at night.
If it's daytime, no killingtime.
So do you think that one'stimeless or time bound?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I think we're debating that in the laws of the
states of this country rightnow.
You know, I think the otherthing, mo, for me that becomes
critical in understandingScripture is I love what Luther
said and I took a year of no,two years of high school German,
so I know just a little bit,but he had this phrase was
(20:38):
Christum triped and what it wasthat what carries Christ, what
it was that what carries Christ,that his point of the Bible is.
The importance of scripture isnot that it's this chiseled in
stone moral code that we sort ofslam on each other.
That what the Bible is about is.
It is about carrying Christ tous.
(20:59):
That what the Bible's purposeis is for those of us who live
now 2,000 years removed fromJesus.
It allows us to hear Jesusspeak.
That, if Jesus is God, come inthe flesh.
That the Bible is importantbecause it allows us to connect,
to hear, to listen to, to beshaped by and molded by Jesus.
(21:20):
Jesus is the heart of scripture.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Absolutely, and as followers of Jesus who are
called to look like Jesus,always going back to that and
thinking am I living out God'slove in the world?
Am I living out God's peace inthe world?
Am I doing things and speakingwords that bring us closer
together to be the body togetherto live out this kingdom, or
(21:42):
not?
And so yeah, yeah.
Well, let us know what you guysthink about some of these
timeless or time-boundscriptures or things that you
may have grappled with,struggled with, maybe with
friends or family, or just beenconfused about.
We'd love to hear that.
We'd love for you to leave somecomments If you have any
questions.
We really dig unpacking thesetruths with you because you know
(22:05):
what, what God is always doing,something new and always
speaking next time on unpackingtruths.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I'm mindful that.
You know the enemy will try tostifle that, even if it's just
with a thought, because if hehas me there the work is done,
he doesn't have to do anything'mgoing to if I'm walking it out
in that mindset, you know it'sjust easy.
And so I think I try to be moreintentional to paying attention
, because it always shows up thesame way.
(22:33):
I mean cause he's not creative,so it's always if I pay
attention.
I always pray that God gives mestrategy to pay attention to
those things, because it alwaysshows up the same way every time
, it's never different.
So I'm, like I have to bemindful of when this is not real
, this fear, you know that's notreal.
So pushing past that and that'swhere my faith comes in.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Thanks for joining us on this episode of Unpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
, or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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