October 8, 2024 • 28 mins
What if the Bible you're familiar with isn't the same as your neighbor's? Discover the surprising differences among the Jewish Hebrew Bible, Protestant Old Testament, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox canons in this eye-opening episode of Unpacking Truths. We'll unravel the history and significance of the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonical books, exploring why they're embraced by some Christian traditions and not others. And, we'll discuss the concept of divine inspiration, both in the writing of these texts and the complex process of determining their authority.
Our journey continues as we trace the origins and development of the New Testament. Learn how Paul's letters, addressing early Christian community issues, gradually became recognized as Holy Scripture. We'll also examine the creation of the Gospels, driven by the need to document Jesus' teachings as His first-generation eyewitnesses began to pass away. Plus, we'll touch on the early church's efforts to distinguish authentic apostolic teachings from speculative accounts, like the Gnostic Gospels, offering a compelling look at the challenges faced by the early Christian community.
Finally, we'll delve into the pivotal milestones in the New Testament's canonization, highlighting the roles of key figures like Athanasius and the significance of his 39th Festal Letter. We'll discuss the controversies surrounding apocryphal and Gnostic gospels, and the importance of a unified and trusted canon for guiding faith and practice. Our conversation wraps up with a reflection on the prayer "Our Father," particularly the line "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," encouraging listeners to engage with God's vision of a welcoming and loving kingdom. Join us for this profound and enlightening discussion on the formation of the Bible.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everyone to Unpacking Truths, and today's
episode is one that wassubmitted by one of our
listeners.
It's a very simple but aprofound question how did the
Bible come together?
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'mPastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So we're going to have fun unpacking some of that
today, mo, and I understand youhave a scripture you want to
share with us that we won't findin our Protestant Bibles.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, no, not many scriptures.
When we were talking, PastorKendall and I, about some of the
Apocrypha stories that havebeen left out, I'm like we're
missing Enoch Noah'sgreat-grandfather, those great
stories.
I want to hear some giants orthe extension of Daniel.
There's some good stuff on Belland the Dragon Bell and the
Dragon we're missing that In theGospel of Judas we're missing
(01:00):
the lesser demigods that createdthe universe, so it's like
we're missing some things thatare quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, or that maybe it's good to be missing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, and we'll talk about that too, but fun, fun to
read.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So where we're starting with this is just
acknowledging that if you sayhow did the Bible come together,
sometimes you've got to askwhich Bible.
Right, because one of thethings I was just struck by if
you ask a rabbi, he would saythere are.
So we're just talking the OldTestament or the Hebrew Bible.
You asked a Jewish rabbi, theywould say there are 24 books in
(01:37):
the Bible.
If you asked a Protestant, theywould say there are 39 books in
their Old Testament.
If you asked a Roman Catholicand opened their Bible, they
would find 46.
And if you ask someone in theEastern Orthodox Church, they
would say 49 or 50.
And so you got this kind of headscratching.
You're saying which Bible andwhen we're saying how the Bible
came together.
So do you want to justacknowledge?
(01:59):
Well, I'll speak to the firstpart then, if you want to jump
in.
So when the rabbis talk aboutit, 24 books their Old Testament
, their Hebrew Bible, is equalto.
It's the same books in aProtestant Bible.
We call it 39.
They call it 24 because theycount like 1 and 2.
(02:20):
Kings is just one book that the12 less quote unquote lesser
prophets.
They count as just the lesserprophets.
So that's one book and we countit as 12.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
They group them together.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Absolutely so.
If a Jewish person opened theirBible with the same number of
pages, the same stuff is in theOld Testament of Protestant.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Bible.
Yes, and it has the Torah,which is the first five books of
the Bible Genesis, exodus,leviticus, numbers, deuteronomy
and then it has wisdom teachingsand different stuff like that
and poems.
Yeah, and we just group itdifferently but we have the same
.
We use technically the HebrewBible.
That is our Old Testament.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
yeah, but the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
have these additional books inthat are sometimes called the
Apocrypha, or my favorite word.
Deuterocanonical.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Deuterocanonical.
Yes, and some of those booksare Tobit, judith 1 and 2,
maccabees, which is really kindof powerful because that speaks
into the revolt right when theJewish people rose up and
actually defeated.
So it's kind of cool.
So some of the stuff you know,the Wisdom of Solomon, catholic
churches and Episcopal churchesuse those books as well.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You crazy Episcopalians use that too.
Yeah, we do, we do, we like it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It's good stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So to start back then the Bibles as we talk about the
Bible really contains sort ofthree sections if you're a
Christian, well, protestants.
Two sections, old Testament andNew Testament, and then Roman
Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxalso include these books that we
would call the Apocrypha, orthe.
Deuterocanonical.
(04:02):
That are not a part of ours.
But why don't we talk about howthe Old Testament came together
, Mo?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well.
I think it's important, though,to mention as well that these
writings right came about duringthis era between the Old
Testament and the New Testament,that 400 years of silence.
Many of these books emergedduring that time the Apocrypha.
The Apocrypha.
So it explains kind of what wasgoing on by Jewish writers,
(04:28):
right, what was going on betweenthat time.
That we say God was silent,it's not that God was
necessarily silent as much asthere was no new prophetic
scripture being written duringthat time Between the end of
what we call the Old Testamentand the New Testament.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yes, that's the section.
Okay, so let's go back to thebeginning, the opening.
Well, let me start with thisline.
People often talk aboutChristians.
Believers talk about that.
God inspired the writers ofScripture, which I think is a
good thing to say.
I think that Scripture isGod-breathed, inspired by God
(05:04):
Absolutely.
But I think the thing that wesometimes forget is, I believe
God not only inspired theauthors in their writing, but
God inspired a process ofdiscerning which books should be
considered canon, which booksshould be authoritative for us
and which books shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's interesting.
You say that because then youknow, as Lutherans use a
different set of books than like, let's say, catholics or even
Episcopalians.
So whose process wasspirit-inspired?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
The Lutheran one.
Yeah right, Isn't that obvious?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
That was solidified in the 1500s mind you?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah Well, because Martin Luther said it, so it's
true.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So well, we'll address that We'll debate that
later.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
But the Old Testament came together and I think the
other thing to remember is,especially in the New Testament,
but also in the Old Testament,the writers of these weren't
necessarily saying, ooh, I wantto write this so I can get into
the Bible.
They were writing as God wasleading them to write.
They were writing as God wasleading them to write.
In the first five books, a goodportion of which comes from
(06:08):
Moses, attributed to Moses, hewas recounting the law that God
had given them, the accountingof how God led them out of Egypt
and the Exodus and into thepromised land.
And it was over time, as thosewere used, that they said this
is scripture, this we need tohold on to.
This is treasure, because itwasn't just one person's writing
(06:29):
.
We hear God speaking throughthat.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No, and that was around between, they say many
scholars, between 14 and 1500,right yeah, bc, and then a few
hundred years, for the next fewhundred years after that is the
prophets and all the differentprophets.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, few hundred years after that is the prophets
and all the different prophets.
Yeah, well, even more than that, the former prophets in that
time and then the later ones inthat, 1,000 to 600.
So these writings, thesespiritual writings, were being
done.
And so let's say, just first,for Jewish people and for many
Christians, those first fivebooks of the Bible the
(07:05):
Pentateuch, the Torah are oftenattributed to Moses.
The challenge is, mosescouldn't have written every
single part of it because itincludes the account of his
death, and I don't think he wasable to write that, unless he
was prophetic, so it could havebeen foreseen, except he also
wrote in there the line andMoses was the humblest of all
(07:28):
men on the earth.
I don't know.
And if he wrote that somehow, Ithink that discounts what he
wrote that sounds like somethingI'd do.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I'd be like you know what it's going to happen.
Anyway, I'm and I'm proclaimingI will die at some point.
So I'll just write it in andsay you know that I am the
humblest of all.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Well, there you go.
I'll try and wait for others tosay it about me, which wouldn't
be true.
So, the Old Testament, thesewritings were done as they
treasured them, as they usedthem, and again the other thing
to remember is— History is inthere, laws in there, miracles,
(08:03):
promises, story, all of thatgood stuff.
But we always think of a Bibleas a bound book.
But even up until Jesus' day,the Bible, the Old Testament,
the Hebrew Bible, was not abound book.
At that time it was a series ofscrolls and so there was this
sense that these scrolls wereconsidered sacred.
But there was still some debate.
(08:25):
Well, should we include thisofficially in the canon?
And the canon is that term ofthe officially approved Hebrew
scripture.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, the books that are in the inn and so.
Yeah, I mean, well, and I thinkit's important for us as
Christians, we can talk a littlebit about like what was the
need for this anyway, right,like why did they feel the need,
christians, you know?
I mean you could also say youknow the Jewish people to
(08:56):
formulate something.
And I think it's important tosay that a lot of writings were
emerging after Jesus and so theyneeded something, and not all
churches had letters from Paul,right, and some-.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
We're in the New Testament.
We'll stay in the Old Testament.
Hold on to that.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, we're sticking in the Old Testament.
Okay, so we'll wait then,because, well, it would be the
same thing Like what is spiritinspired, what is in alignment
with who we are as the people ofGod called by God?
And so I'm not sure actually, Idon't know any, I haven't done
(09:34):
a lot of research on this, to beall honest, in transparency
about if they had the same kindof heresies happening among the
Jewish people as we experiencedafter Christ's death and
resurrection, yeah, in the NewTestament, but there is this
sense of needing boundaries tosay where do we really trust
that God was speaking and wheredo we think well, that might be
inspiring, but we're not sayingthat's fully inspired.
Yeah, divinely.
(09:54):
Inspired.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Divinely inspired and in some ways the Jewish
community had to sort of puttheir boundaries around it after
the Christian movement startedto sort of say here's where that
is Men should never shave theirbeards.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Divinely inspired, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, we're getting into specifics, I'm teasing.
So the other thing with regardto the Old Testament coming
together, there was that timebetween the last writing,
malachi, and the last writing ofthe Old Testament, the
beginning of the new, when thoseapocrypha were written.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
That there was also this whole movement to have it
translated from Hebrew intoGreek, which was sort of the
common or the aristocratic andthe learned language of the day,
and there was this group of 70to 72 Jewish scholars who
translated it in Alexandria andEgypt and that became known as
(10:53):
the Septuagint and that didinclude some of those apocryphal
writings that are not in theProtestant Bible but in the
others.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So do we want to shift to the New Testament?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I think, so Okay, I think it's safe.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So the New Testament.
I think one of the fascinatingthings is that I always thought
growing up that you know, I tendto think whatever I get, I
figure it's in chronologicalorder.
So when I read the Gospels Istart in the New Testament and I
hear Matthew, mark, luke, john.
I figure those were the firstfour books written in the New
Testament and they weren't theywere written later Paul's
letters were the first, so say aword about Paul's letters.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
No, I mean Paul's letters came first and yet, like
I was saying before, all thechurches didn't necessarily have
them right.
They had.
Some had different letters,some had, and they used it as
Holy Scripture, right, Divinelyinspired by God to understand
what it meant to live out thisbelief that Jesus was the
Messiah who came to save andthey're empowered by the Holy
(11:56):
Spirit.
And so, with this happening andother Spirit, and so with this
happening and other letters wereemerging as well, kind of
answering questions or thingsthat were left open, and so
that's why they started to.
Really one of the big thingsthey wanted to do was make sure
that all the letters that theywere using came from apostolic
(12:20):
succession, meaning like camefrom an apostle or an eyewitness
to an apostle, right, and sothat emerged first.
But then what was passed downverbally was the story of who
Jesus was, jesus' teachings, andthey knew they needed to get
that down as well, and so yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So just to clarify, as you had said, the first
letters, romans, 1 Corinthians,2 Corinthians, galatians, those
letters from Paul.
Paul wasn't sitting down andgoing like I want to write
something for this expandedBible.
He was writing a very specificletter to a specific community
(12:59):
that either he had founded or,in Romans, he was introducing
himself to, and it was toaddress specific questions.
So, as someone has said, it'salmost like reading someone
else's mail when we're doingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And yet some of the things he wrote had universal
principles.
Some of the things he wroteright, some were very
context-specific to a certainchurch for a certain reason and
a purpose, but because some hadbig universal principles and
understandings of who Jesus wasand what he was doing and how
this impacts our lives, theywere used as Holy Scripture, we
(13:34):
see, by the church fathers earlyon.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes, over time.
So, basically, Paul wrote aletter to the Christians in
Galatia because they were offtrack on something and getting
too caught up in the law.
But after he wrote them thatletter, it challenged them, it
inspired them, but they thoughtthis was such good stuff.
They then started making copiesof it and sharing it with other
Christian communities.
(13:57):
So these letters startedgetting shared, as you were
saying, and as they becameshared, other churches said wow,
this is great stuff.
Oh, we're hearing God's voicein this, so as that common usage
.
That's how the authority ofthose letters grew and how they
eventually began to see them asHoly Scripture.
But they started out just asletters that had the force of
(14:22):
the Holy Spirit in the words,but they wouldn't have named
them as scripture.
They were just letters thatgrew in authority over time.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Right, and, as that was happening, though, right.
So there are some spaces whereit's like, oh, I really wish I
knew what happened here or there.
And that's also when a lot ofthese other letters started to
emerge, or things like theGospel of Thomas.
Right, these Gnostic Gospelswere being written, and so there
was this real need to discernwhat comes out of an apostle of
(14:53):
Jesus early on and or secondhandwitness, and what is being
written to fill a gap, and some,even if and some of it was
theologically on par and some ofit wasn't it was like way off.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah.
So let's again just do achronological timeframe for
folks.
So if Jesus was born about fourBC and if his death and
resurrection was about 29 AD, 30, 33, 34 years old most of
Paul's letters were writtenbetween 40 and 55 AD.
(15:25):
And then it was is that firstgeneration of eyewitness
believers were starting to dieout that they had been?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
sharing all of Better write this down.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, they had been sharing all these stories about
Jesus.
But that is when the authors,who we call Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, began saying hold it,we've got to capture these
together.
We've got to write a coherent,quote unquote biography of Jesus
so the next generation couldhave it, Because they thought
Jesus was going to return.
So they didn't think we neededto put this all together in sort
(15:55):
of written form or full writtenform until they started going
like, OK, his return is going tobe later.
So the letters first, then thegospels were written, these
accounts of Jesus' life.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
To capture those before, those who were either
with Jesus and or secondeyewitnesses were dead.
So it's like let's get thisdown ASAP, because John had some
revelations of the future andthe end times, so let's get you
know.
So it was, yes, that's why ittranspired, because it was a
necessity.
Paul wrote letters because hewas trying to.
I mean, most of them werewritten while he was in prison,
(16:30):
Otherwise he probably just wouldhave visited some of these
parishes, right?
And so that's how we have somany letters, so many letters,
and yet we didn't you're righthave any written account of what
it was like to be with Jesusand travel with Jesus and what
this meant and his teachings andall that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, and so the Gospels were probably written
between 65 and 90, 95 AD, duringthat time frame, and most
scholars believe Marks was thefirst, matthew and Luke after
that and then John, the last ofthe Gospels written.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
But John is my favorite.
I do love that.
It's very cosmic.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, see you really should be a Lutheran, because
Martin Luther's favorite wasJohn as well.
But then, as you pointed to,then other people.
People are often struck thatMark and John don't have
anything about Jesus' birth orgrowing up time.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Right.
And yet there are infancygospels, right, that speak into
what Jesus was like you know asa child and different things he
did and miracles.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and those other gospels were often written
because people said like, hey, Iwant to know more, and so it
was like this legendary materialstarted developing.
But the early Christian churchvery early on said like well,
that's more speculative thanit's real and so that's why the
gospel of Thomas and Peter andMary didn't get included in that
(17:56):
core list because they feltlike hold it.
We don't know that.
That goes back to the apostles.
That doesn't go back to theearliest eyewitnesses.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Some of it was absolutely not in alignment with
the gospels right and thegospel message and what Jesus
said.
So, like the gospel of Thomas,for instance, which is 114
sayings and teachings of whatJesus said, like one of them
saying 11, 14, it says SimonPeter said to them let Mary
leave us, for women are notworthy of life, jesus said, I
(18:25):
myself shall lead her in orderto make her male, so that she
may become a living spiritresembling you males, for every
woman who will make herself malewill enter the kingdom of
heaven, because there was thisidea emerging, that number one.
The ideal is male, to be male.
(18:45):
So even in death andresurrecting, you need to have a
male body to resurrect, to bewith God right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So all these crazy thoughts that were not in
alignment with anything beingtaught orally regarding people's
experience, the apostles'experience and or secondhand
witnesses to Jesus, Well, insome ways, that is why this idea
of the canon developed, becauseif you didn't have clear
boundaries around, then everyonecould start to think well, this
(19:15):
is also or this is also true.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
In the Gospel of Thomas, it says yeah, exactly,
and so that's where theChristian church began to start
saying well, this is also orthis is also true In the.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Gospel of Thomas.
It says, yeah, exactly, and sothat's where the Christian
church began to start saying,hey, these are the boundaries
that we need so that we can keepthe message of Jesus clear and
it doesn't just keep evolving bywhoever wants to add on
whatever they want to add on.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Right, it was definitely to combat heresy,
right.
But at the same time I know oneof their kind of markers to
kind of gauge was was thisperson an apostle and or
secondhand witness right To theapostles?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, and folks may beinterested to know, that while
the letters and the four gospelsthat we know began to become
clear within 100 years like thisis the good stuff, this is the
real stuff that the Christianchurch was still debating what's
(20:14):
in, what's out until Athanasius, what's in, what's out until
Athanasius.
And even then and he wrote the39th Festal Letter he names
those 27 books in the NewTestament and says here's what
it is, here's what's in.
The rest of it shouldn't be,but there was still debate going
on in the church.
So you're talking 250 yearsafter the last of the New
(20:38):
Testament writings and they'restill debating should this be in
or not?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Oh yeah, and it was really needed because during the
time of persecution too andthey were going around burning
sacred texts, right the churchfathers those who are looking
over these things needed to knowwhat was considered a real
sacred text versus what wasn't,because they were almost moved
to give their life to be amartyr to protect those texts.
(21:03):
So they needed to know, likehey, which ones we're dying for
and which one maybe just give itto them, like I mean.
So they had to get really clear.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would want them to be clear, you know I don't want
to give your life for the wrongthing.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, no, no, oh.
I died for the gospel of Thomas, so you don't want to give?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
your life for the wrong thing.
No, no, oh, I died for thegospel of Thomas.
So close Wasn't worth it,wasn't worth it, no, no.
So it was a process, and so,one of the things you know, when
I started learning that andsort of starting to understand
that, it raised questions for melike, well, hold it, I always
trusted that Galatians was God'sword and how do I know.
But that's where I had toreally take a step back and
(21:42):
realize hold it, it wasn't justthe Holy Spirit inspiring Paul
to write to the Christians inGalatia, it was also these early
Christian leaders continuing topray, continuing to study, to
keep coming back and to say thisis the true message of Jesus.
And this stuff, no, this ischaff, this is not the essential
(22:04):
.
And so I believe it was theHoly Spirit not just inspiring
the writers, but inspiring thoseleaders to discern this is what
you really need, this is theessentials.
You can let the other stuff go,maybe it'll help you, maybe not
, but don't put your, don't riskyour life on stuff that isn't
the core.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, and I well once again.
So there's this weird grayspace there because it's like
some people consider, you know,some, you know, like I said,
catholics, episcopalians,orthodox they consider certain
books to still be sacred, right,very sacred, just as much as
(22:43):
all the other books.
And so I don't know.
I think it's this space oflooking at to see what is in
alignment with the big pictureof who Jesus was.
Did it come from apostolicsuccession and or a second party
, and is it universal principlesthat I mean, I don't know like
I think just are in alignmentwith what we know and what's
(23:05):
been shared?
But you have to createsomething that is unison, right,
because I think back ofPriscilla and Aquila, the
husband I always forget thehusband and who was the
gentleman that was teaching andhe was a really great teacher a
(23:26):
profound teacher.
What's his name?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
We'll put it in the notes below.
Yeah, we'll put it in the notes.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I'm having a brain fart.
And so, anyway, he was teaching, he was a great teacher and yet
he was missing part of thestory of who Jesus was, so
Priscilla had to fill him inwhen he was done speaking.
And so it's the same thing whenvarious churches have different
letters and or different books,and not all of them, you may be
missing the big picture or thebig story of what God is doing.
(23:54):
Unless you create somethingthat is in unison and that put
something together and say thisis what we want to give our life
for, literally, because you'reasking people to give their life
, follow you know and live thisway, and or literally give their
life right to protect thesesacred texts.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, and I guess for me, having not grown up with
the Apocrypha and having notgrown up with those
deuterocanonical books, I feellike I can know the heart of the
gospel without them.
I'm not saying they're bad,they're not helpful, but to me,
the 27 books in the NewTestament, I trust that the
truth of who Jesus is comesthrough there and I guess for me
(24:39):
part of that becomes is the andjust maybe a final thought,
which is just kind of one that'sout there.
But I was really frustratedwhen I read the Da Vinci Code,
because Dan Brown loved to pointto this sort of like.
Well, the gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
a lot of scholars believe it should have been in
most scholars that was a Gnosticgospel, that wasn't an actual
Apocrypha gospel.
That was, yeah right, I'm nottalking the Apocrypha.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm talking, you're right, but these other books
that were not included in theNew Testament that he was making
them sound like, well, they,you know, like it was a
conspiracy to keep them out.
It wasn't a conspiracy, it was,I believe, holy Spirit led to
say that's going off into somegoofy directions, that is not of
the core, and those are theones that I think ended up.
(25:29):
I'm glad that Christian church,holy Spirit led, put boundaries
around it because there werethings that were misleading,
that would point people awayfrom Jesus, and so sometimes
when people are saying, oh yeah,but there's this other gospel,
those other gospels, gospel ofThomas and Peter, they were
written much later than theoriginal, as you said, they were
(25:51):
not based on eyewitnessaccounts.
It was legendary stuff that wasfiltered in.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, as followers of Christ, though I think it's
kind of cool to say pick up theDeuterocanonical books, right,
it just means second canon.
And other Christians very muchthink these are divinely
inspired and they wereconsidered that until the 1500s
at the Council of Trent, whenthe Protestant Reformation kind
of emerged, and so it's kind ofcool to read through them and
(26:18):
just get a bigger understandingof who God is and what that
looked like.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So I think it can be I guess I'm still a Protestant.
I know I love people to justread these 66.
And then, if you got time, goto the Apocrypha If you don't
start here.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, definitely start there.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
So good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Hope this probably raised other questions because
we went on a bunch of littletangents here.
Hopefully we didn't confuse youmore.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
But thanks for joining us.
Please, if you think this ishelpful for someone else, share
it with them.
Always like or subscribe.
Leave a comment, as that helpsthis message to go wider and
other people to start unpackingthe truths of who God is in his
word and how we make sense of itfor our lives today.
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
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kingdom come, thy will be doneon earth as it is in heaven, and
that Isaiah vision is a visionof God's kingdom, of what it
means to see the beauty of God'screation in all of diversity
and to know that God is soloving beyond our understanding
(27:27):
and saying make a space that'swelcoming and open and seeks to
have a relationship with all ofus.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
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Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
Welcome everyone to Unpacking Truths, and today's
episode is one that wassubmitted by one of our
listeners.
It's a very simple but aprofound question how did the
Bible come together?
I'm Pastor Kendall and I'mPastor Mo.
Welcome to Unpacking Truths,where we dive deep into God's
timeless truths for our livestoday.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Grab your coffee.
Open your hearts and your minds.
Come take this journey with us,as we unpack God's truths.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So we're going to have fun unpacking some of that
today, mo, and I understand youhave a scripture you want to
share with us that we won't findin our Protestant Bibles.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, no, not many scriptures.
When we were talking, PastorKendall and I, about some of the
Apocrypha stories that havebeen left out, I'm like we're
missing Enoch Noah'sgreat-grandfather, those great
stories.
I want to hear some giants orthe extension of Daniel.
There's some good stuff on Belland the Dragon Bell and the
Dragon we're missing that In theGospel of Judas we're missing
(01:00):
the lesser demigods that createdthe universe, so it's like
we're missing some things thatare quite interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Well, or that maybe it's good to be missing.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, and we'll talk about that too, but fun, fun to
read.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So where we're starting with this is just
acknowledging that if you sayhow did the Bible come together,
sometimes you've got to askwhich Bible.
Right, because one of thethings I was just struck by if
you ask a rabbi, he would saythere are.
So we're just talking the OldTestament or the Hebrew Bible.
You asked a Jewish rabbi, theywould say there are 24 books in
(01:37):
the Bible.
If you asked a Protestant, theywould say there are 39 books in
their Old Testament.
If you asked a Roman Catholicand opened their Bible, they
would find 46.
And if you ask someone in theEastern Orthodox Church, they
would say 49 or 50.
And so you got this kind of headscratching.
You're saying which Bible andwhen we're saying how the Bible
came together.
So do you want to justacknowledge?
(01:59):
Well, I'll speak to the firstpart then, if you want to jump
in.
So when the rabbis talk aboutit, 24 books their Old Testament
, their Hebrew Bible, is equalto.
It's the same books in aProtestant Bible.
We call it 39.
They call it 24 because theycount like 1 and 2.
(02:20):
Kings is just one book that the12 less quote unquote lesser
prophets.
They count as just the lesserprophets.
So that's one book and we countit as 12.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
They group them together.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Absolutely so.
If a Jewish person opened theirBible with the same number of
pages, the same stuff is in theOld Testament of Protestant.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Bible.
Yes, and it has the Torah,which is the first five books of
the Bible Genesis, exodus,leviticus, numbers, deuteronomy
and then it has wisdom teachingsand different stuff like that
and poems.
Yeah, and we just group itdifferently but we have the same
.
We use technically the HebrewBible.
That is our Old Testament.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
yeah, but the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox
have these additional books inthat are sometimes called the
Apocrypha, or my favorite word.
Deuterocanonical.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Deuterocanonical.
Yes, and some of those booksare Tobit, judith 1 and 2,
maccabees, which is really kindof powerful because that speaks
into the revolt right when theJewish people rose up and
actually defeated.
So it's kind of cool.
So some of the stuff you know,the Wisdom of Solomon, catholic
churches and Episcopal churchesuse those books as well.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
You crazy Episcopalians use that too.
Yeah, we do, we do, we like it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It's good stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So to start back then the Bibles as we talk about the
Bible really contains sort ofthree sections if you're a
Christian, well, protestants.
Two sections, old Testament andNew Testament, and then Roman
Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxalso include these books that we
would call the Apocrypha, orthe.
Deuterocanonical.
(04:02):
That are not a part of ours.
But why don't we talk about howthe Old Testament came together
, Mo?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Well.
I think it's important, though,to mention as well that these
writings right came about duringthis era between the Old
Testament and the New Testament,that 400 years of silence.
Many of these books emergedduring that time the Apocrypha.
The Apocrypha.
So it explains kind of what wasgoing on by Jewish writers,
(04:28):
right, what was going on betweenthat time.
That we say God was silent,it's not that God was
necessarily silent as much asthere was no new prophetic
scripture being written duringthat time Between the end of
what we call the Old Testamentand the New Testament.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yes, that's the section.
Okay, so let's go back to thebeginning, the opening.
Well, let me start with thisline.
People often talk aboutChristians.
Believers talk about that.
God inspired the writers ofScripture, which I think is a
good thing to say.
I think that Scripture isGod-breathed, inspired by God
(05:04):
Absolutely.
But I think the thing that wesometimes forget is, I believe
God not only inspired theauthors in their writing, but
God inspired a process ofdiscerning which books should be
considered canon, which booksshould be authoritative for us
and which books shouldn't be.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Well, that's interesting.
You say that because then youknow, as Lutherans use a
different set of books than like, let's say, catholics or even
Episcopalians.
So whose process wasspirit-inspired?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
The Lutheran one.
Yeah right, Isn't that obvious?
Speaker 2 (05:36):
That was solidified in the 1500s mind you?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah Well, because Martin Luther said it, so it's
true.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So well, we'll address that We'll debate that
later.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
But the Old Testament came together and I think the
other thing to remember is,especially in the New Testament,
but also in the Old Testament,the writers of these weren't
necessarily saying, ooh, I wantto write this so I can get into
the Bible.
They were writing as God wasleading them to write.
They were writing as God wasleading them to write.
In the first five books, a goodportion of which comes from
(06:08):
Moses, attributed to Moses, hewas recounting the law that God
had given them, the accountingof how God led them out of Egypt
and the Exodus and into thepromised land.
And it was over time, as thosewere used, that they said this
is scripture, this we need tohold on to.
This is treasure, because itwasn't just one person's writing
(06:29):
.
We hear God speaking throughthat.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
No, and that was around between, they say many
scholars, between 14 and 1500,right yeah, bc, and then a few
hundred years, for the next fewhundred years after that is the
prophets and all the differentprophets.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, few hundred years after that is the prophets
and all the different prophets.
Yeah, well, even more than that, the former prophets in that
time and then the later ones inthat, 1,000 to 600.
So these writings, thesespiritual writings, were being
done.
And so let's say, just first,for Jewish people and for many
Christians, those first fivebooks of the Bible the
(07:05):
Pentateuch, the Torah are oftenattributed to Moses.
The challenge is, mosescouldn't have written every
single part of it because itincludes the account of his
death, and I don't think he wasable to write that, unless he
was prophetic, so it could havebeen foreseen, except he also
wrote in there the line andMoses was the humblest of all
(07:28):
men on the earth.
I don't know.
And if he wrote that somehow, Ithink that discounts what he
wrote that sounds like somethingI'd do.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I'd be like you know what it's going to happen.
Anyway, I'm and I'm proclaimingI will die at some point.
So I'll just write it in andsay you know that I am the
humblest of all.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Well, there you go.
I'll try and wait for others tosay it about me, which wouldn't
be true.
So, the Old Testament, thesewritings were done as they
treasured them, as they usedthem, and again the other thing
to remember is— History is inthere, laws in there, miracles,
(08:03):
promises, story, all of thatgood stuff.
But we always think of a Bibleas a bound book.
But even up until Jesus' day,the Bible, the Old Testament,
the Hebrew Bible, was not abound book.
At that time it was a series ofscrolls and so there was this
sense that these scrolls wereconsidered sacred.
But there was still some debate.
(08:25):
Well, should we include thisofficially in the canon?
And the canon is that term ofthe officially approved Hebrew
scripture.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, the books that are in the inn and so.
Yeah, I mean, well, and I thinkit's important for us as
Christians, we can talk a littlebit about like what was the
need for this anyway, right,like why did they feel the need,
christians, you know?
I mean you could also say youknow the Jewish people to
(08:56):
formulate something.
And I think it's important tosay that a lot of writings were
emerging after Jesus and so theyneeded something, and not all
churches had letters from Paul,right, and some-.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
We're in the New Testament.
We'll stay in the Old Testament.
Hold on to that.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Oh, we're sticking in the Old Testament.
Okay, so we'll wait then,because, well, it would be the
same thing Like what is spiritinspired, what is in alignment
with who we are as the people ofGod called by God?
And so I'm not sure actually, Idon't know any, I haven't done
(09:34):
a lot of research on this, to beall honest, in transparency
about if they had the same kindof heresies happening among the
Jewish people as we experiencedafter Christ's death and
resurrection, yeah, in the NewTestament, but there is this
sense of needing boundaries tosay where do we really trust
that God was speaking and wheredo we think well, that might be
inspiring, but we're not sayingthat's fully inspired.
Yeah, divinely.
(09:54):
Inspired.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Divinely inspired and in some ways the Jewish
community had to sort of puttheir boundaries around it after
the Christian movement startedto sort of say here's where that
is Men should never shave theirbeards.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Divinely inspired, yes.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, we're getting into specifics, I'm teasing.
So the other thing with regardto the Old Testament coming
together, there was that timebetween the last writing,
malachi, and the last writing ofthe Old Testament, the
beginning of the new, when thoseapocrypha were written.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
That there was also this whole movement to have it
translated from Hebrew intoGreek, which was sort of the
common or the aristocratic andthe learned language of the day,
and there was this group of 70to 72 Jewish scholars who
translated it in Alexandria andEgypt and that became known as
(10:53):
the Septuagint and that didinclude some of those apocryphal
writings that are not in theProtestant Bible but in the
others.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So do we want to shift to the New Testament?
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Yeah, I think, so Okay, I think it's safe.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So the New Testament.
I think one of the fascinatingthings is that I always thought
growing up that you know, I tendto think whatever I get, I
figure it's in chronologicalorder.
So when I read the Gospels Istart in the New Testament and I
hear Matthew, mark, luke, john.
I figure those were the firstfour books written in the New
Testament and they weren't theywere written later Paul's
letters were the first, so say aword about Paul's letters.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
No, I mean Paul's letters came first and yet, like
I was saying before, all thechurches didn't necessarily have
them right.
They had.
Some had different letters,some had, and they used it as
Holy Scripture, right, Divinelyinspired by God to understand
what it meant to live out thisbelief that Jesus was the
Messiah who came to save andthey're empowered by the Holy
(11:56):
Spirit.
And so, with this happening andother Spirit, and so with this
happening and other letters wereemerging as well, kind of
answering questions or thingsthat were left open, and so
that's why they started to.
Really one of the big thingsthey wanted to do was make sure
that all the letters that theywere using came from apostolic
(12:20):
succession, meaning like camefrom an apostle or an eyewitness
to an apostle, right, and sothat emerged first.
But then what was passed downverbally was the story of who
Jesus was, jesus' teachings, andthey knew they needed to get
that down as well, and so yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So just to clarify, as you had said, the first
letters, romans, 1 Corinthians,2 Corinthians, galatians, those
letters from Paul.
Paul wasn't sitting down andgoing like I want to write
something for this expandedBible.
He was writing a very specificletter to a specific community
(12:59):
that either he had founded or,in Romans, he was introducing
himself to, and it was toaddress specific questions.
So, as someone has said, it'salmost like reading someone
else's mail when we're doingthat.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And yet some of the things he wrote had universal
principles.
Some of the things he wroteright, some were very
context-specific to a certainchurch for a certain reason and
a purpose, but because some hadbig universal principles and
understandings of who Jesus wasand what he was doing and how
this impacts our lives, theywere used as Holy Scripture, we
(13:34):
see, by the church fathers earlyon.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Yes, over time.
So, basically, Paul wrote aletter to the Christians in
Galatia because they were offtrack on something and getting
too caught up in the law.
But after he wrote them thatletter, it challenged them, it
inspired them, but they thoughtthis was such good stuff.
They then started making copiesof it and sharing it with other
Christian communities.
(13:57):
So these letters startedgetting shared, as you were
saying, and as they becameshared, other churches said wow,
this is great stuff.
Oh, we're hearing God's voicein this, so as that common usage
.
That's how the authority ofthose letters grew and how they
eventually began to see them asHoly Scripture.
But they started out just asletters that had the force of
(14:22):
the Holy Spirit in the words,but they wouldn't have named
them as scripture.
They were just letters thatgrew in authority over time.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Right, and, as that was happening, though, right.
So there are some spaces whereit's like, oh, I really wish I
knew what happened here or there.
And that's also when a lot ofthese other letters started to
emerge, or things like theGospel of Thomas.
Right, these Gnostic Gospelswere being written, and so there
was this real need to discernwhat comes out of an apostle of
(14:53):
Jesus early on and or secondhandwitness, and what is being
written to fill a gap, and some,even if and some of it was
theologically on par and some ofit wasn't it was like way off.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah.
So let's again just do achronological timeframe for
folks.
So if Jesus was born about fourBC and if his death and
resurrection was about 29 AD, 30, 33, 34 years old most of
Paul's letters were writtenbetween 40 and 55 AD.
(15:25):
And then it was is that firstgeneration of eyewitness
believers were starting to dieout that they had been?
Speaker 2 (15:32):
sharing all of Better write this down.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yeah, they had been sharing all these stories about
Jesus.
But that is when the authors,who we call Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John, began saying hold it,we've got to capture these
together.
We've got to write a coherent,quote unquote biography of Jesus
so the next generation couldhave it, Because they thought
Jesus was going to return.
So they didn't think we neededto put this all together in sort
(15:55):
of written form or full writtenform until they started going
like, OK, his return is going tobe later.
So the letters first, then thegospels were written, these
accounts of Jesus' life.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
To capture those before, those who were either
with Jesus and or secondeyewitnesses were dead.
So it's like let's get thisdown ASAP, because John had some
revelations of the future andthe end times, so let's get you
know.
So it was, yes, that's why ittranspired, because it was a
necessity.
Paul wrote letters because hewas trying to.
I mean, most of them werewritten while he was in prison,
(16:30):
Otherwise he probably just wouldhave visited some of these
parishes, right?
And so that's how we have somany letters, so many letters,
and yet we didn't you're righthave any written account of what
it was like to be with Jesusand travel with Jesus and what
this meant and his teachings andall that.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah, and so the Gospels were probably written
between 65 and 90, 95 AD, duringthat time frame, and most
scholars believe Marks was thefirst, matthew and Luke after
that and then John, the last ofthe Gospels written.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
But John is my favorite.
I do love that.
It's very cosmic.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Well, see you really should be a Lutheran, because
Martin Luther's favorite wasJohn as well.
But then, as you pointed to,then other people.
People are often struck thatMark and John don't have
anything about Jesus' birth orgrowing up time.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Right.
And yet there are infancygospels, right, that speak into
what Jesus was like you know asa child and different things he
did and miracles.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yeah, and those other gospels were often written
because people said like, hey, Iwant to know more, and so it
was like this legendary materialstarted developing.
But the early Christian churchvery early on said like well,
that's more speculative thanit's real and so that's why the
gospel of Thomas and Peter andMary didn't get included in that
(17:56):
core list because they feltlike hold it.
We don't know that.
That goes back to the apostles.
That doesn't go back to theearliest eyewitnesses.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Some of it was absolutely not in alignment with
the gospels right and thegospel message and what Jesus
said.
So, like the gospel of Thomas,for instance, which is 114
sayings and teachings of whatJesus said, like one of them
saying 11, 14, it says SimonPeter said to them let Mary
leave us, for women are notworthy of life, jesus said, I
(18:25):
myself shall lead her in orderto make her male, so that she
may become a living spiritresembling you males, for every
woman who will make herself malewill enter the kingdom of
heaven, because there was thisidea emerging, that number one.
The ideal is male, to be male.
(18:45):
So even in death andresurrecting, you need to have a
male body to resurrect, to bewith God right.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
So all these crazy thoughts that were not in
alignment with anything beingtaught orally regarding people's
experience, the apostles'experience and or secondhand
witnesses to Jesus, Well, insome ways, that is why this idea
of the canon developed, becauseif you didn't have clear
boundaries around, then everyonecould start to think well, this
(19:15):
is also or this is also true.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
In the Gospel of Thomas, it says yeah, exactly,
and so that's where theChristian church began to start
saying well, this is also orthis is also true In the.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Gospel of Thomas.
It says, yeah, exactly, and sothat's where the Christian
church began to start saying,hey, these are the boundaries
that we need so that we can keepthe message of Jesus clear and
it doesn't just keep evolving bywhoever wants to add on
whatever they want to add on.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Right, it was definitely to combat heresy,
right.
But at the same time I know oneof their kind of markers to
kind of gauge was was thisperson an apostle and or
secondhand witness right To theapostles?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, yeah.
But you know, and folks may beinterested to know, that while
the letters and the four gospelsthat we know began to become
clear within 100 years like thisis the good stuff, this is the
real stuff that the Christianchurch was still debating what's
(20:14):
in, what's out until Athanasius, what's in, what's out until
Athanasius.
And even then and he wrote the39th Festal Letter he names
those 27 books in the NewTestament and says here's what
it is, here's what's in.
The rest of it shouldn't be,but there was still debate going
on in the church.
So you're talking 250 yearsafter the last of the New
(20:38):
Testament writings and they'restill debating should this be in
or not?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Oh yeah, and it was really needed because during the
time of persecution too andthey were going around burning
sacred texts, right the churchfathers those who are looking
over these things needed to knowwhat was considered a real
sacred text versus what wasn't,because they were almost moved
to give their life to be amartyr to protect those texts.
(21:03):
So they needed to know, likehey, which ones we're dying for
and which one maybe just give itto them, like I mean.
So they had to get really clear.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
I would want them to be clear, you know I don't want
to give your life for the wrongthing.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah, no, no, oh.
I died for the gospel of Thomas, so you don't want to give?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
your life for the wrong thing.
No, no, oh, I died for thegospel of Thomas.
So close Wasn't worth it,wasn't worth it, no, no.
So it was a process, and so,one of the things you know, when
I started learning that andsort of starting to understand
that, it raised questions for melike, well, hold it, I always
trusted that Galatians was God'sword and how do I know.
But that's where I had toreally take a step back and
(21:42):
realize hold it, it wasn't justthe Holy Spirit inspiring Paul
to write to the Christians inGalatia, it was also these early
Christian leaders continuing topray, continuing to study, to
keep coming back and to say thisis the true message of Jesus.
And this stuff, no, this ischaff, this is not the essential
(22:04):
.
And so I believe it was theHoly Spirit not just inspiring
the writers, but inspiring thoseleaders to discern this is what
you really need, this is theessentials.
You can let the other stuff go,maybe it'll help you, maybe not
, but don't put your, don't riskyour life on stuff that isn't
the core.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Well, and I well once again.
So there's this weird grayspace there because it's like
some people consider, you know,some, you know, like I said,
catholics, episcopalians,orthodox they consider certain
books to still be sacred, right,very sacred, just as much as
(22:43):
all the other books.
And so I don't know.
I think it's this space oflooking at to see what is in
alignment with the big pictureof who Jesus was.
Did it come from apostolicsuccession and or a second party
, and is it universal principlesthat I mean, I don't know like
I think just are in alignmentwith what we know and what's
(23:05):
been shared?
But you have to createsomething that is unison, right,
because I think back ofPriscilla and Aquila, the
husband I always forget thehusband and who was the
gentleman that was teaching andhe was a really great teacher a
(23:26):
profound teacher.
What's his name?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
We'll put it in the notes below.
Yeah, we'll put it in the notes.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I'm having a brain fart.
And so, anyway, he was teaching, he was a great teacher and yet
he was missing part of thestory of who Jesus was, so
Priscilla had to fill him inwhen he was done speaking.
And so it's the same thing whenvarious churches have different
letters and or different books,and not all of them, you may be
missing the big picture or thebig story of what God is doing.
(23:54):
Unless you create somethingthat is in unison and that put
something together and say thisis what we want to give our life
for, literally, because you'reasking people to give their life
, follow you know and live thisway, and or literally give their
life right to protect thesesacred texts.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Yeah, and I guess for me, having not grown up with
the Apocrypha and having notgrown up with those
deuterocanonical books, I feellike I can know the heart of the
gospel without them.
I'm not saying they're bad,they're not helpful, but to me,
the 27 books in the NewTestament, I trust that the
truth of who Jesus is comesthrough there and I guess for me
(24:39):
part of that becomes is the andjust maybe a final thought,
which is just kind of one that'sout there.
But I was really frustratedwhen I read the Da Vinci Code,
because Dan Brown loved to pointto this sort of like.
Well, the gospel of Thomas.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
a lot of scholars believe it should have been in
most scholars that was a Gnosticgospel, that wasn't an actual
Apocrypha gospel.
That was, yeah right, I'm nottalking the Apocrypha.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I'm talking, you're right, but these other books
that were not included in theNew Testament that he was making
them sound like, well, they,you know, like it was a
conspiracy to keep them out.
It wasn't a conspiracy, it was,I believe, holy Spirit led to
say that's going off into somegoofy directions, that is not of
the core, and those are theones that I think ended up.
(25:29):
I'm glad that Christian church,holy Spirit led, put boundaries
around it because there werethings that were misleading,
that would point people awayfrom Jesus, and so sometimes
when people are saying, oh yeah,but there's this other gospel,
those other gospels, gospel ofThomas and Peter, they were
written much later than theoriginal, as you said, they were
(25:51):
not based on eyewitnessaccounts.
It was legendary stuff that wasfiltered in.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, as followers of Christ, though I think it's
kind of cool to say pick up theDeuterocanonical books, right,
it just means second canon.
And other Christians very muchthink these are divinely
inspired and they wereconsidered that until the 1500s
at the Council of Trent, whenthe Protestant Reformation kind
of emerged, and so it's kind ofcool to read through them and
(26:18):
just get a bigger understandingof who God is and what that
looked like.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
So I think it can be I guess I'm still a Protestant.
I know I love people to justread these 66.
And then, if you got time, goto the Apocrypha If you don't
start here.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, definitely start there.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
So good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Hope this probably raised other questions because
we went on a bunch of littletangents here.
Hopefully we didn't confuse youmore.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
But thanks for joining us.
Please, if you think this ishelpful for someone else, share
it with them.
Always like or subscribe.
Leave a comment, as that helpsthis message to go wider and
other people to start unpackingthe truths of who God is in his
word and how we make sense of itfor our lives today.
Next time on Unpacking Truths.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
As we pray often right the Our Father, thy
kingdom come, thy will be doneon earth as it is in heaven, and
that Isaiah vision is a visionof God's kingdom, of what it
means to see the beauty of God'screation in all of diversity
and to know that God is soloving beyond our understanding
(27:27):
and saying make a space that'swelcoming and open and seeks to
have a relationship with all ofus.
Thanks for joining us on thisepisode of Unpacking Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackpacking
Truths.
If anything that we discussedsparked any ideas or you have
any questions, we would love foryou to go to unpackingtruthscom
or you can also email us atunpackingtruths at locchurchcom.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And don't forget to like, share or subscribe to the
podcast, because you doing thatallows other people to connect
to this content and grow withGod as well.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Until next time, we hope you know that you are loved
.
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