December 14, 2023 • 30 mins
Embracing failure as a force multiplier for growth and creativity is a core belief here at Unserious. So in this our final episode of the season, we journey back to the origins of our podcasting adventure, reflecting on some of our favorite moments and valuable insights we learned along the way. In this episode, Unserious producer Micah Vono joins J.B. and Molly to talk about storytelling and narrative building from his unique angle of human-centered design. We talk about our hopes and dreams for the future and offer a sneak peek at what we're thinking about for next season. Join us as we celebrate new beginnings and let us know what suggestions you have for Unserious!
"Being able to take that step back and say ‘this thing that I’m working on is not me’ is table stakes for producing great work.” - Micah Vono
0:12 Intro
1:24 Learning and Growing Through Podcasting
4:36 Great Moments From Season 1
12:41 Hire, Fire, Boss!
15:48 Storytelling for Humans
22:24 The Future of Unserious
27:43 Outro
You can check out more of Micah's work at micahvono.com and connect on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in this episode:
- Julie Zhou on loving the problem
- Storyteller Sarah Kuck of Present Medium Productions
- Dieter Rams' Ten Principles for Good Design
Follow Unserious in your podcast app, at unserious.com, and on Instagram and Threads at @unserious.fun.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Unserious.
Beginnings aren't just aboutstarting something new and
exciting.
They're also about learning,about falling on your face and
getting up to try again.
They're about remaining humbleand sometimes stumbling into
surprising successes.
(00:26):
When we set out to make apodcast earlier this year, we
wanted to create somethinguseful to share the brilliance
of our friends and tell abroader, cohesive story of how
we think about managing andleading today.
We wanted each episode to workas a standalone lesson, but we
also wanted them to build uponother episodes so that there was
a greater meeting to the wholeseason.
(00:48):
Today we're going back to thebeginning, and our guest isn't
so much of a guest, since he'llbe editing this conversation on
the backend.
We're joined by our producer,Mike Avono, who is no stranger
to new beginnings.
Mike has been amultidisciplinary creative
leader, straddling content andoperations at places like
Facebook, Best Buy and theNational Salon Chain Reaches
(01:09):
Corporation, with a specialfocus on design and
entrepreneurship.
He spent five years leadinginternal storytelling for Meta's
ads and business product team,traveling the world many times
over to capture compellingbusiness stories to influence
product mode maps.
Welcome, Micah.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Welcome, Micah.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
It's so nice to be here for once.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
It's really great to have you Get on in here.
Buddy Magic Micah has arrived.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Oh my God, Magic Micah.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Actually, you've always been here like pulling
the strings and making everybodysound awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And that goes right to the start of this, molly, you
and I started talking about apodcast at the beginning of this
year and actually started intoit in earnest in May, june, and
then we started recordingconversations and they were so
bad they were awful.
(02:02):
The worst.
They were awful.
We were such like.
We were terrible interviewersand we didn't know how to edit.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And I didn't know if our friendship was going to last
it.
I was like, oh wow we do somany good things together, but
this is not it.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
This is not it, and I realized that we had a missing
ingredient that we needed, andthat was.
That was my Cofono, who broughtorder to our chaos and rained
us in and is able to shut us upand get us off of a tangent and
(02:41):
really drive us towards athrough line for each of our
stories.
So that has, that has been whathas made unserious work.
But, micah, I'd love to startwith you, like you've never
worked in audio before, what wasmost fun to learn and discover
as you began working in audio?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah, I mean, my initial thought was that this
wouldn't be too far off fromvideo, which I've done quite a
bit of and I've done with UJB.
But when we lose all of thevisuals, the way you tell the
story turns out to be a lotdifferent than video.
I learned through somewonderful mentors it's actually
more powerful to not sayeverything out loud and to use
(03:22):
the medium of the visual to saythe thing for you.
You don't need a person to sayyou know, and then I was sad,
when you can show a visual ofthe person who is sad, right,
it's more powerful.
In audio you don't get that andit's a fun challenge.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah, I think that you are one of the most talented
storytellers that I know, thatyou are able to bring out like
the personality theyessentialize, down to the most
important themes, and weave itall together in a way that
emotionally connects withaudiences.
(03:59):
And I'm curious like what isyour art or craft around
storytelling?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I mean, in a lot of ways storytelling is not that
different at all from othertypes of human-centered design.
It's understanding your user'sneeds and context and what might
be interesting or helpful tothem.
It's mapping it to what mightbe possible.
And then it's expandingpossibilities by recording lots
of great stuff and lots of ideasthat might go nowhere until you
(04:29):
decide to consolidate thoseideas into something that's
really crisp and works foreverybody.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Was there a favorite story or through line that you
heard this last season?
I mean, I'd love to hear thisfrom both of you guys.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
actually, oh boy, I had a favorite moment, every
single person that we talkedwith.
And much like Molly, you hadyour professional crush on
everybody that we spoke with andI thought the same thing I'm
like.
Well, I could be that I couldbe Ryan Majeski.
I could be Courtney Catlin.
I want to be Mary Michael for aliving when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And I never really.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
These are all people.
I dream of being these folkswhen I grow up.
Or I just fell in love witheverybody.
In the middle of the episodethere was a moment where, all of
a sudden, I was like I love you, please tell me more.
You're spectacular.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I totally agree.
I loved meeting new people andhearing like Denise blew my mind
, mary Michael blew my mind.
It was fun reconnecting withRyan and just getting the story
of what's been.
We knew each other 20 years agobut we really haven't been in
touch and so just hearing theincredible impact that he's been
(05:48):
having over the last 18, 19years has been really fun.
Long way for the wine shop.
Long way for the wine shop andjust like such amazing wisdom
that our guests had.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
How about you, Micah?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I felt like there were always moments where it was
like either God that'svalidating or God that is
challenging.
I guess maybe, if I had to picka favorite moment, I have never
heard a more precise andspecific and strong point of
view on, like, how to get yourcreativity back is Mary Michael
(06:22):
Brinkel.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Oh yeah, I would just say, I would just reflect back
that like it is about returningto your younger, self and it
just goes back to play and youget back to that and you've got
yourself your creativity back.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I think she was.
Yeah, that was just like soclear headed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And as a parent to you of a small child, I'm like
it's really, it's that simple asreconnecting with who you were
as a child, and I kind ofintentionally don't reflect on
the past.
I avoid nostalgia, and it'sactually ever since.
That episode has made me kindof lean into it a little bit
more.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Oh, I love that.
How about you, JB?
Was there like a moment or astory that really stuck with you
?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Ryan talked about his work as a magician and the way
that he manipulates audiences tocreate magic Manipulation for
good but I thought it was areally interesting and honest
explanation of how that momentof surprise and delight, how you
(07:29):
create that magic is thismanipulation of your audience?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I was a magician for 20 years.
A lot of magic is convincingpeople to make a free choice
when really they're making apredetermined choice.
You can work all these thingsinto like UX and UI design, and
also into management andleadership.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
It was really interesting and I hadn't thought
of it that way.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I think about that as just being very intentional,
being really clear about whatyou were doing and why, which I
think that goes back to whatMicah was sharing about that
human-centeredness of that somany folks shared on our show.
I am neighbors with Denisevirtual and so I get to see her
(08:18):
all the time at the coffee shopwhere she drops wisdom bombs.
I'm so glad she was able tocome on the show and share her
brilliance even more widely.
Speaker 6 (08:28):
It makes sense to not just think of what am I doing
for the individual user I havein mind.
It makes sense to think of theuser in the social context.
What's the team behind them?
What's the community behindthem?
Where are they when they'reinteracting with this product or
service?
How do we, as designers, startto create a practice that takes
(08:48):
all those things intoconsideration, because they
really do impact the experienceof using the products and
services we build?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
I would say some really fun moments for me were
getting the chance to reconnectwith Courtney Kaplan, who was my
coach, just that permission tomeditate in meetings and all.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I would do is realize I'm in a meeting room with
people.
I don't need to clench my jaw,that's not helping.
I don't need to hold tension inmy shoulders.
They aren't doing anything.
In this meeting I can actuallyfully relax my body, still pay
attention and participate.
Follow my breath, participate.
(09:30):
Follow my breath, participate.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And then, at the same time, lauren Cook.
Give me the weird man, my work,naturally will always skew to
that whimsy.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think for my team I push to give me the weird.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
I want bonkers in my briefs.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
She was so unbridled she's so cool, like I like.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Can you imagine if you had a team with all of these
folks from the mysteriouspodcast working together Like I
think most problems in the worldwould be solvable and it would
be a team that would take reallygood care of each other in that
challenging process.
And so I think our hypothesisin this podcast that folks in
(10:14):
our network and people that wework with are best in class in
what they do and haven't had theopportunity yet to share how
extraordinarily gifted they areprofessionally and I think that
is been one of my favorite partsis getting to learn from these
(10:35):
folks about their everydayamazingness and solving
complexity in the work.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's so many people who need a platform.
And it's really an honor to beable to provide a platform.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like there's a lot ofpodcasts where and this is
totally fine but where you golike, go grab a big name, an
author, a celebrity or whateverwe all have a lot to learn from,
but there's a bit of apopularity bias to say that
those are the only people thathave we have a lot to learn from
, right.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, we talk about Adam Grant and Bernay Brown all
the time.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Oh my gosh, exactly, there's like a lot of podcasts
every day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not hard to find them.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, who made them possible right?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, ted, I mean yeah, and I think.
The other thing is, I do thinka lot of the folks who joined
maybe don't care that much aboutplatform.
They just want to do goodfucking work.
That's right.
Like so many, one of the bigthemes was friendships on teams.
(11:39):
They just want to do great workwith good people and feel good
at the end of the day aboutdoing that work.
And feeling good could be likeit was impactful or it was
creative or it was joyful or itwas complex and we figured it
out.
It could take a lot ofdifferent forms, but yeah, I
think they should be heard andseen so much further than the
inner workings of their teams,because they change lives.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's right.
You mentioned Ryan and Denise.
Both of them hit on the topicof what's good for the world.
Yeah, and what is the ethicalthing to do, Like like JV?
When you were talking aboutRyan using the magician sort of
powers to exploit the human, youknow the way the human brain
works, but he's doing it from asuper ethical standpoint,
Absolutely.
And Denise's conversation aboutlike the smartphone has also
(12:23):
really stuck with me.
What can a smartphone solve fora person is a really different
question from what does asmartphone do to the rest of
society?
And like those are the kinds ofpeople we need to hear more
from.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Yeah, absolutely Back in a minute with more on Sirius
.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Um, for Hirefire Boss .
Does anybody else have anyother ideas?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Oh, boy, okay I understand that it's a matter of
like a magic time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You might be familiar with this game that we play,
called Hirefire or Boss.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Shall I explain the rules.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
No, well, maybe for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, well, we're going to give you three names
and you have to pick who youwould hire to work on your team,
who you would fire and whowould be your boss Genius.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, I wonder who came up with that game.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
It was a little piece of Micah magic.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
So the first category is Dude Chefs.
Oh boy.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
We love a good Dude Chef.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, we like a good Dude Chef.
Yeah, so does the world.
It doesn't Like an open fireself.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Open fire Francis.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Malman.
Francis Malman First.
Second.
Jose Andres, oh God.
Third, anthony Bourdain, allthree near and dear to my heart.
Okay, jose Andres should beeveryone's boss.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Oh yeah, he's a lovely person, like hands down,
and he can actually scale work.
That is exactly right, like hecan actually operationalize and
move and he leads with heart.
One of my great moments in life, I was served Hamon Ibarico by
(14:11):
Jose Andres.
What In one of his restaurantsAt a South by Southwest event in
Austin, texas, when I livedthere.
How lovely, oh cool.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
When I was in DC running the wine shop.
That was the early days ofHaleo, which is his first
restaurant in DC, and we shareda lot of the same staff.
So I have a lot of respect forhim and it's been fun to watch
him like go global, I mean likehe's working with the UN and
stuff.
I mean it's pretty incredible.
Okay, so we have a boss.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
We have a boss.
We fire Francis Malman becauseFrancis Malman can't even walk
into a building.
I don't think he exists insidebuildings, I think he exists.
He appears when a fire is builtby the riverside and you say
his name two times and FrancisMalman appears.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
We throw a little like salt in the fire and he
emerges.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And then, yeah, I think like, hire Bourdain and
you do the best you can withthat.
You hire him, you make him yourstar, you do what he tells you.
How about you guys?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
He'd be your buddy and you could go motorcycle
riding on the weekends togetherand sample food and drink some
beers and throw some axes orsomething.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
So authenticity is like the biggest thing that I
would want in somebody on myteam Right and he's kind of
house this brand.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
He's an incredible storyteller and really finds a
story in food that's unusual anddifferent.
I think I would.
I don't disagree with yourselections at all, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, okay, all right , we warmed up.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
We warmed up.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah Cool.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So I want to dig a little more into the
storytelling here, because thisis really, I think, where you
shine, micah, and this is abrand new podcast.
We have, like, a very limitedunderstanding of who our
listeners are.
We don't have a lot to go on interms of insights.
Who are we speaking to?
Is there a persona that youhave in mind?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, I mean, the proxy persona is our guests
themselves, because our guestsare part of our network.
The listeners of our podcastsare part of their network.
So it's a lot of people thatare working on high stakes work,
design forward, creativityforward and, have you know,
(16:29):
they've been around a bit.
They have something to say.
So I think it's important thatwe treat our audience with a lot
of respect.
They don't need to learn fromus, right?
But I think in elevating thesevoices, it might give them
something to think about, thesereally smart people who are
listening to our podcast.
That might change the alchemyfor them and make better
(16:51):
decisions in their career too.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
This is a great segue into that, because it's once
again.
We go off-piste.
Every single one of ourconversations starts with a plan
but ventures off into the woodsfairly quickly.
How do you adapt a narrative tofit the reality of the
conversations?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
that we have.
I mean, what's reality is kindof a big question, right?
I think one of the things thatI learned in video production is
that you know you might spendthree or four hours with a
person, getting to know them,getting to know their story,
their motivations, theirchallenges, and every one of the
things that they said is true,and yet there are a zillion
(17:32):
different ways you can tell thatstory.
So I think that the approach isthe same.
Where we plan for it to go offcourse, we plan for the fact
that we're going to record for90 minutes, for a 30-minute
conversation, because we'regoing to find the bits and
pieces and the through linesthat tell a story.
(17:53):
Back to the human-centereddesign idea that fits the needs
and context of our listeners,our perceived listeners.
I think, for the most part,most of our conversations have
fit what we set out to do in thebeginning, but there are many
times where we change the topicbecause what came up was more
interesting and compelling.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, Do you ever find that there's a struggle
between what we want to getacross and the stories that are
guest-spring?
And when there is, how do youreconcile that conflict?
There's always a struggle.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
That said, I don't know if I'd call it a struggle
as much as I would a dance Fairenough Okay.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
What kind of dance?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Are we?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
talking polka?
Are we talking modern ballet,hip-hop?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Waltz is probably a good one.
It's a give and take right,yeah, and it's a call and
response, and it's like I'mfeeling this right now and now
we're going to change approach.
In the end, it's still a dance,but there's an alchemy
component to this that everyconversation is different.
Even if you put the same peopleand the same conversation two
(18:58):
days in a row, the next daywould be totally different.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah, what are the?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Are there frameworks that you use to develop
narratives and stories Like howdo you, how do you do this?
Yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It's about removing everything unnecessary.
Like I haven't always been aproducer Okay, I haven't always
been like good at editing things, even though I think I've
always tried, even back to likeChildhood VHS recorder.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I've had a lot of great mentors and a lot of time
spent in my own personallearning Sarah cook of present
medium.
I used to work with her quite abit.
We would.
We would always work so welltogether until it came to post
and she was like removing all ofthese Amazing quotes and I was
like keep them in.
And she's like, no, take themout.
And I think it's you know, Idon't know if you can see it,
(19:52):
but like Deeter.
Deeter runs the designer,deeter runs from Ron and all of
the yeah, his ten principles arewith me.
They've been with me fordecades on my wall.
Removing everything unnecessaryis one of the the key
principles there.
Good design is understandable,good design is useful.
Good design is as little designas possible and in the
(20:12):
designing of the conversation weremove everything that's not
necessary.
We make the conversationunderstandable, we make the
conversation useful and we makethe conversation as few words as
possible.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Oh my gosh, I love that you've got Deeter on the
wall with you at all times.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
We'll share a link to that in our show notes.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah you know, I think it's often we call it
like killing your darlings.
You sometimes have to kill, yes, your most favorite part of
your story to simplify andconnect emotionally and make
something Digestible to someoneelse, and so it may be something
(20:52):
that you love but you're likeit just doesn't fit anymore and
so that killing the darlingsprocess I feel like you might
have to you there's often likegrieving and Squabble over over
that being able to take thatstep away and say this thing
that I am working on is not meMm-hmm, I think is table stakes
(21:13):
for producing great work.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah one of the things that's really stuck with
me that I've read this year isfrom Julie Zhu, who's an author
and former VP of design atFacebook, about falling in love
with the problem and not fallingin love with the solution.
If you fall in love with thesolution, your blinders go on.
You start to put this thing upon a pedestal and when the
(21:37):
market conditions change, yeahthe solution doesn't apply
anymore.
Right, but if you fall in lovewith the problem, then you keep
looking at new ways ofaddressing that problem, and I
think there's an applicationhere for for the storytelling
work that we do elegant way ofthinking.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Relevant authentic keeping pace ability to shift.
Yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
So even on serious right, or even a conversation
where we're like I'm falling inlove with these people, I'm
falling in love with theconversation, falling in love
with the house, but what's thequote, what's the underlying
problem?
That on serious Solves forright and that's going to change
over time.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
What do you want this to become?
What do you where?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
do you want to see this going?
I mean, on serious, couldn't bebetter timed in my opinion.
It's 2023.
Yeah, we're post pandemic ish.
We're in the thick of a hugechange in the way of working, in
the way of who's working, inthe way of how those people are
treated and.
(22:49):
I would love for the idea of onserious lowering the stakes,
taking a different outlook onwhat work is and what how it
fits into our lives.
I'd like it to be a resetbutton for how we work post 2023
.
Hmm, our lives are now richer.
Our work is not the only partof our life.
Hmm, it's an important part ofour life and we're passionate
(23:11):
about it, but we have otherthings too.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh, how about you, molly?
What do you want?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
on serious to become like I think about on serious,
as being a place of refuge, aplace to rebuild your creative
spirit and mojo.
I want it to be an experiencethat resonates and let's folks
(23:36):
know that they are exceptionaltoo in what they do and can show
up as Like, show up with theirfull expertise and life
experiences in inproblem-solving, but they don't
have to give their full selves Ito work.
I think it's an opportunity tolearn from maybe this is a
(23:59):
little cheesy but kind of theunsung heroes of the
professional world today.
The folks that we were bringingon are the ones who lift up
leaders, who guide the toughestdecisions that companies and
nonprofits and governments haveto make.
They are the ones that teammembers at the same level or at
(24:22):
different levels come in andseek their wisdom and expertise
from.
So I think it's a chance togive these unsung professional
heroes the opportunity to beseen and recognized for the
really positive impact thatthey've had on their teams,
their work and their communities.
I feel recharged, I feelenergized, I feel a renewed
(24:46):
sense of optimism in theseconversations, and so I'm hoping
that we're able to scale beyondour networks to the next
network out.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think that's really beautifully said.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
What about you, JB?
What are your hopes for thefuture of Unserious?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
JB, I got one on a call.
You're the one that came upwith the idea of Unserious.
You came up with the idea of apodcast.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I initially started with because I wanted like,
clearly, audio is a thing andI've never worked in it before
I've been in a career break forthis time and I wanted to learn
it.
I wanted to build a platform.
I've built platforms forexecutives that I've worked with
for many, many years and wantedto have a platform about
(25:28):
something I cared about, whichis around the future of work how
we communicate, how we create,how we work together.
I think it's as you said, micahthere's so much changing right
now and, molly, as you say,there's so many brilliant minds
that, with so much to share thathaven't been mined yet, and so
there's so much amazingknowledge.
(25:50):
As I look to the future, Ithink like really building a
community around this throughpodcasts through what we're
doing.
That's where I'd like to seethis going, and it's not a
professional network that Ithink that we want.
It's like this group of peoplewho have a belief that we were
only scratching the surface onthe creative potential of these
(26:12):
organizations and like how do weget more of that?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, well, I think that's.
One of the things that broughtus all here was that all three
of us had a burnout moment, 100%, and our transitioning, how we
think about work, you know, andour own ambition, and so you
know.
I want to take a moment to one.
Thank you, jb, for theinvitation to co-host with you.
Oh God, yeah, it was a littlerocky at the start.
(26:37):
Thanks for making me giggle.
But it really has been thehighlight of the year and I get
a chance.
While we've been friends for solong, we've never had the
chance to work with each otherand I get to see like what I
love about our friendship in theworld of work and that feels so
special and you've created justa really great experience, I
(27:00):
think, for me and the listeners.
And then you introduced me toMagic Micah, who I'm pretty sure
there's nothing.
Micah cannot do.
But I mean Micah, thank you.
You make us sound good, youmake our.
You make our guests sound greatyeah you do show how great the
guests are and you're just areally kind and fabulous person
(27:23):
to work with.
I can't.
No one has any idea of theamount of technical challenges,
micah has had to hurdle overwith me to get me working on
this podcast.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
It's just you.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
So I mean talk about some grit for some perseverance.
Thanks, micah for hanging inthere with me.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
So, micah, tell our audience what we should be
expecting next season I meannext season we want to dig
deeper on a lot of the sametopics, with new people just
like you've described, atdifferent stages in their
careers All interesting,creative-minded people.
What are they doing?
How do we do more of it?
How can the rest of us learn?
(28:08):
What else are we going to hearabout?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So this season was quite focused on managing
creativity, I think, the ideasthat we want to broaden it out.
I want to talk about how wecommunicate up down sideways
better to actually create change.
How do we navigate our careers?
So many people are in a periodof transition right now,
including President Company, andI think that there are lessons
(28:34):
that we have.
There are lessons that othershave.
There's just sort of people whoare in the midst of the
ambiguousness who I'd love totalk to.
There are people who are muchmore seasoned than their careers
, thinking about retiring andlike what's their advice for
their 20-year-old self?
I love that.
I think, we're going to have alot of fun.
Yeah, you even had an idea thatwe could talk to our mothers oh
(28:56):
my gosh and find our mothersfor their wisdom.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Oh wow.
I feel like we would all learnso much more about each other.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I mean we'd have a lot of darlings to kill.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Oh my gosh, yeah, and I think, like I look looking
forward, I hope we have westrengthen our relationship with
folks who are listening.
We want, you know, build uptheir ideas and expertise and
have the ability to bring thosefolks in to the unserious
universe as well.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, let's hear from you all Listeners, what would
you like to hear about in thenext season?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, let us know.
Please do.
All right, I think that's theshow and that's the season.
Throughout this season, ourlisteners have shown up,
subscribing rating, sharing usThank you.
In the off season, we'll stillpop in from time to time on
Instagram and threads atUnseriousfun.
If you joined us mid season,you can catch all of our
(29:58):
previous episodes atunseriouscom, where you can also
learn more and connect with theunserious crew.
That's us.
Thanks for tuning in and we'llbe back next season with more
unserious.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
It's a matter of like a magic time.
This is Unserious.
Beginnings aren't just aboutstarting something new and
exciting.
They're also about learning,about falling on your face and
getting up to try again.
They're about remaining humbleand sometimes stumbling into
surprising successes.
(00:26):
When we set out to make apodcast earlier this year, we
wanted to create somethinguseful to share the brilliance
of our friends and tell abroader, cohesive story of how
we think about managing andleading today.
We wanted each episode to workas a standalone lesson, but we
also wanted them to build uponother episodes so that there was
a greater meeting to the wholeseason.
(00:48):
Today we're going back to thebeginning, and our guest isn't
so much of a guest, since he'llbe editing this conversation on
the backend.
We're joined by our producer,Mike Avono, who is no stranger
to new beginnings.
Mike has been amultidisciplinary creative
leader, straddling content andoperations at places like
Facebook, Best Buy and theNational Salon Chain Reaches
(01:09):
Corporation, with a specialfocus on design and
entrepreneurship.
He spent five years leadinginternal storytelling for Meta's
ads and business product team,traveling the world many times
over to capture compellingbusiness stories to influence
product mode maps.
Welcome, Micah.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Welcome, Micah.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
It's so nice to be here for once.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
It's really great to have you Get on in here.
Buddy Magic Micah has arrived.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Oh my God, Magic Micah.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Actually, you've always been here like pulling
the strings and making everybodysound awesome.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
And that goes right to the start of this, molly, you
and I started talking about apodcast at the beginning of this
year and actually started intoit in earnest in May, june, and
then we started recordingconversations and they were so
bad they were awful.
(02:02):
The worst.
They were awful.
We were such like.
We were terrible interviewersand we didn't know how to edit.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
And I didn't know if our friendship was going to last
it.
I was like, oh wow we do somany good things together, but
this is not it.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
This is not it, and I realized that we had a missing
ingredient that we needed, andthat was.
That was my Cofono, who broughtorder to our chaos and rained
us in and is able to shut us upand get us off of a tangent and
(02:41):
really drive us towards athrough line for each of our
stories.
So that has, that has been whathas made unserious work.
But, micah, I'd love to startwith you, like you've never
worked in audio before, what wasmost fun to learn and discover
as you began working in audio?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Yeah, I mean, my initial thought was that this
wouldn't be too far off fromvideo, which I've done quite a
bit of and I've done with UJB.
But when we lose all of thevisuals, the way you tell the
story turns out to be a lotdifferent than video.
I learned through somewonderful mentors it's actually
more powerful to not sayeverything out loud and to use
(03:22):
the medium of the visual to saythe thing for you.
You don't need a person to sayyou know, and then I was sad,
when you can show a visual ofthe person who is sad, right,
it's more powerful.
In audio you don't get that andit's a fun challenge.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah, I think that you are one of the most talented
storytellers that I know, thatyou are able to bring out like
the personality theyessentialize, down to the most
important themes, and weave itall together in a way that
emotionally connects withaudiences.
(03:59):
And I'm curious like what isyour art or craft around
storytelling?
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I mean, in a lot of ways storytelling is not that
different at all from othertypes of human-centered design.
It's understanding your user'sneeds and context and what might
be interesting or helpful tothem.
It's mapping it to what mightbe possible.
And then it's expandingpossibilities by recording lots
of great stuff and lots of ideasthat might go nowhere until you
(04:29):
decide to consolidate thoseideas into something that's
really crisp and works foreverybody.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Was there a favorite story or through line that you
heard this last season?
I mean, I'd love to hear thisfrom both of you guys.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
actually, oh boy, I had a favorite moment, every
single person that we talkedwith.
And much like Molly, you hadyour professional crush on
everybody that we spoke with andI thought the same thing I'm
like.
Well, I could be that I couldbe Ryan Majeski.
I could be Courtney Catlin.
I want to be Mary Michael for aliving when I grow up.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
And I never really.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
These are all people.
I dream of being these folkswhen I grow up.
Or I just fell in love witheverybody.
In the middle of the episodethere was a moment where, all of
a sudden, I was like I love you, please tell me more.
You're spectacular.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
I totally agree.
I loved meeting new people andhearing like Denise blew my mind
, mary Michael blew my mind.
It was fun reconnecting withRyan and just getting the story
of what's been.
We knew each other 20 years agobut we really haven't been in
touch and so just hearing theincredible impact that he's been
(05:48):
having over the last 18, 19years has been really fun.
Long way for the wine shop.
Long way for the wine shop andjust like such amazing wisdom
that our guests had.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
How about you, Micah?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
I felt like there were always moments where it was
like either God that'svalidating or God that is
challenging.
I guess maybe, if I had to picka favorite moment, I have never
heard a more precise andspecific and strong point of
view on, like, how to get yourcreativity back is Mary Michael
(06:22):
Brinkel.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Oh yeah, I would just say, I would just reflect back
that like it is about returningto your younger, self and it
just goes back to play and youget back to that and you've got
yourself your creativity back.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
I think she was.
Yeah, that was just like soclear headed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
And as a parent to you of a small child, I'm like
it's really, it's that simple asreconnecting with who you were
as a child, and I kind ofintentionally don't reflect on
the past.
I avoid nostalgia, and it'sactually ever since.
That episode has made me kindof lean into it a little bit
more.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Oh, I love that.
How about you, JB?
Was there like a moment or astory that really stuck with you
?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Ryan talked about his work as a magician and the way
that he manipulates audiences tocreate magic Manipulation for
good but I thought it was areally interesting and honest
explanation of how that momentof surprise and delight, how you
(07:29):
create that magic is thismanipulation of your audience?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I was a magician for 20 years.
A lot of magic is convincingpeople to make a free choice
when really they're making apredetermined choice.
You can work all these thingsinto like UX and UI design, and
also into management andleadership.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
It was really interesting and I hadn't thought
of it that way.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
I think about that as just being very intentional,
being really clear about whatyou were doing and why, which I
think that goes back to whatMicah was sharing about that
human-centeredness of that somany folks shared on our show.
I am neighbors with Denisevirtual and so I get to see her
(08:18):
all the time at the coffee shopwhere she drops wisdom bombs.
I'm so glad she was able tocome on the show and share her
brilliance even more widely.
Speaker 6 (08:28):
It makes sense to not just think of what am I doing
for the individual user I havein mind.
It makes sense to think of theuser in the social context.
What's the team behind them?
What's the community behindthem?
Where are they when they'reinteracting with this product or
service?
How do we, as designers, startto create a practice that takes
(08:48):
all those things intoconsideration, because they
really do impact the experienceof using the products and
services we build?
Speaker 4 (08:58):
I would say some really fun moments for me were
getting the chance to reconnectwith Courtney Kaplan, who was my
coach, just that permission tomeditate in meetings and all.
Speaker 5 (09:10):
I would do is realize I'm in a meeting room with
people.
I don't need to clench my jaw,that's not helping.
I don't need to hold tension inmy shoulders.
They aren't doing anything.
In this meeting I can actuallyfully relax my body, still pay
attention and participate.
Follow my breath, participate.
(09:30):
Follow my breath, participate.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
And then, at the same time, lauren Cook.
Give me the weird man, my work,naturally will always skew to
that whimsy.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I think for my team I push to give me the weird.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
I want bonkers in my briefs.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
She was so unbridled she's so cool, like I like.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Can you imagine if you had a team with all of these
folks from the mysteriouspodcast working together Like I
think most problems in the worldwould be solvable and it would
be a team that would take reallygood care of each other in that
challenging process.
And so I think our hypothesisin this podcast that folks in
(10:14):
our network and people that wework with are best in class in
what they do and haven't had theopportunity yet to share how
extraordinarily gifted they areprofessionally and I think that
is been one of my favorite partsis getting to learn from these
(10:35):
folks about their everydayamazingness and solving
complexity in the work.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
There's so many people who need a platform.
And it's really an honor to beable to provide a platform.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like there's a lot ofpodcasts where and this is
totally fine but where you golike, go grab a big name, an
author, a celebrity or whateverwe all have a lot to learn from,
but there's a bit of apopularity bias to say that
those are the only people thathave we have a lot to learn from
, right.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, we talk about Adam Grant and Bernay Brown all
the time.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Oh my gosh, exactly, there's like a lot of podcasts
every day.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's not hard to find them.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, who made them possible right?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Yeah, ted, I mean yeah, and I think.
The other thing is, I do thinka lot of the folks who joined
maybe don't care that much aboutplatform.
They just want to do goodfucking work.
That's right.
Like so many, one of the bigthemes was friendships on teams.
(11:39):
They just want to do great workwith good people and feel good
at the end of the day aboutdoing that work.
And feeling good could be likeit was impactful or it was
creative or it was joyful or itwas complex and we figured it
out.
It could take a lot ofdifferent forms, but yeah, I
think they should be heard andseen so much further than the
inner workings of their teams,because they change lives.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
That's right.
You mentioned Ryan and Denise.
Both of them hit on the topicof what's good for the world.
Yeah, and what is the ethicalthing to do, Like like JV?
When you were talking aboutRyan using the magician sort of
powers to exploit the human, youknow the way the human brain
works, but he's doing it from asuper ethical standpoint,
Absolutely.
And Denise's conversation aboutlike the smartphone has also
(12:23):
really stuck with me.
What can a smartphone solve fora person is a really different
question from what does asmartphone do to the rest of
society?
And like those are the kinds ofpeople we need to hear more
from.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Yeah, absolutely Back in a minute with more on Sirius
.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Um, for Hirefire Boss .
Does anybody else have anyother ideas?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
Oh, boy, okay I understand that it's a matter of
like a magic time.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
You might be familiar with this game that we play,
called Hirefire or Boss.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Shall I explain the rules.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
No, well, maybe for our listeners.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Okay, well, we're going to give you three names
and you have to pick who youwould hire to work on your team,
who you would fire and whowould be your boss Genius.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah, I wonder who came up with that game.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
It was a little piece of Micah magic.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
So the first category is Dude Chefs.
Oh boy.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
We love a good Dude Chef.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, we like a good Dude Chef.
Yeah, so does the world.
It doesn't Like an open fireself.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Open fire Francis.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Malman.
Francis Malman First.
Second.
Jose Andres, oh God.
Third, anthony Bourdain, allthree near and dear to my heart.
Okay, jose Andres should beeveryone's boss.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Oh yeah, he's a lovely person, like hands down,
and he can actually scale work.
That is exactly right, like hecan actually operationalize and
move and he leads with heart.
One of my great moments in life, I was served Hamon Ibarico by
(14:11):
Jose Andres.
What In one of his restaurantsAt a South by Southwest event in
Austin, texas, when I livedthere.
How lovely, oh cool.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
When I was in DC running the wine shop.
That was the early days ofHaleo, which is his first
restaurant in DC, and we shareda lot of the same staff.
So I have a lot of respect forhim and it's been fun to watch
him like go global, I mean likehe's working with the UN and
stuff.
I mean it's pretty incredible.
Okay, so we have a boss.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
We have a boss.
We fire Francis Malman becauseFrancis Malman can't even walk
into a building.
I don't think he exists insidebuildings, I think he exists.
He appears when a fire is builtby the riverside and you say
his name two times and FrancisMalman appears.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
We throw a little like salt in the fire and he
emerges.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And then, yeah, I think like, hire Bourdain and
you do the best you can withthat.
You hire him, you make him yourstar, you do what he tells you.
How about you guys?
Speaker 4 (15:16):
He'd be your buddy and you could go motorcycle
riding on the weekends togetherand sample food and drink some
beers and throw some axes orsomething.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
So authenticity is like the biggest thing that I
would want in somebody on myteam Right and he's kind of
house this brand.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
He's an incredible storyteller and really finds a
story in food that's unusual anddifferent.
I think I would.
I don't disagree with yourselections at all, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, okay, all right , we warmed up.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
We warmed up.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Yeah Cool.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So I want to dig a little more into the
storytelling here, because thisis really, I think, where you
shine, micah, and this is abrand new podcast.
We have, like, a very limitedunderstanding of who our
listeners are.
We don't have a lot to go on interms of insights.
Who are we speaking to?
Is there a persona that youhave in mind?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, I mean, the proxy persona is our guests
themselves, because our guestsare part of our network.
The listeners of our podcastsare part of their network.
So it's a lot of people thatare working on high stakes work,
design forward, creativityforward and, have you know,
(16:29):
they've been around a bit.
They have something to say.
So I think it's important thatwe treat our audience with a lot
of respect.
They don't need to learn fromus, right?
But I think in elevating thesevoices, it might give them
something to think about, thesereally smart people who are
listening to our podcast.
That might change the alchemyfor them and make better
(16:51):
decisions in their career too.
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
This is a great segue into that, because it's once
again.
We go off-piste.
Every single one of ourconversations starts with a plan
but ventures off into the woodsfairly quickly.
How do you adapt a narrative tofit the reality of the
conversations?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
that we have.
I mean, what's reality is kindof a big question, right?
I think one of the things thatI learned in video production is
that you know you might spendthree or four hours with a
person, getting to know them,getting to know their story,
their motivations, theirchallenges, and every one of the
things that they said is true,and yet there are a zillion
(17:32):
different ways you can tell thatstory.
So I think that the approach isthe same.
Where we plan for it to go offcourse, we plan for the fact
that we're going to record for90 minutes, for a 30-minute
conversation, because we'regoing to find the bits and
pieces and the through linesthat tell a story.
(17:53):
Back to the human-centereddesign idea that fits the needs
and context of our listeners,our perceived listeners.
I think, for the most part,most of our conversations have
fit what we set out to do in thebeginning, but there are many
times where we change the topicbecause what came up was more
interesting and compelling.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, Do you ever find that there's a struggle
between what we want to getacross and the stories that are
guest-spring?
And when there is, how do youreconcile that conflict?
There's always a struggle.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
That said, I don't know if I'd call it a struggle
as much as I would a dance Fairenough Okay.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
What kind of dance?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Are we?
Speaker 4 (18:33):
talking polka?
Are we talking modern ballet,hip-hop?
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Waltz is probably a good one.
It's a give and take right,yeah, and it's a call and
response, and it's like I'mfeeling this right now and now
we're going to change approach.
In the end, it's still a dance,but there's an alchemy
component to this that everyconversation is different.
Even if you put the same peopleand the same conversation two
(18:58):
days in a row, the next daywould be totally different.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Yeah, what are the?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Are there frameworks that you use to develop
narratives and stories Like howdo you, how do you do this?
Yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
It's about removing everything unnecessary.
Like I haven't always been aproducer Okay, I haven't always
been like good at editing things, even though I think I've
always tried, even back to likeChildhood VHS recorder.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
I've had a lot of great mentors and a lot of time
spent in my own personallearning Sarah cook of present
medium.
I used to work with her quite abit.
We would.
We would always work so welltogether until it came to post
and she was like removing all ofthese Amazing quotes and I was
like keep them in.
And she's like, no, take themout.
And I think it's you know, Idon't know if you can see it,
(19:52):
but like Deeter.
Deeter runs the designer,deeter runs from Ron and all of
the yeah, his ten principles arewith me.
They've been with me fordecades on my wall.
Removing everything unnecessaryis one of the the key
principles there.
Good design is understandable,good design is useful.
Good design is as little designas possible and in the
(20:12):
designing of the conversation weremove everything that's not
necessary.
We make the conversationunderstandable, we make the
conversation useful and we makethe conversation as few words as
possible.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Oh my gosh, I love that you've got Deeter on the
wall with you at all times.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
We'll share a link to that in our show notes.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah you know, I think it's often we call it
like killing your darlings.
You sometimes have to kill, yes, your most favorite part of
your story to simplify andconnect emotionally and make
something Digestible to someoneelse, and so it may be something
(20:52):
that you love but you're likeit just doesn't fit anymore and
so that killing the darlingsprocess I feel like you might
have to you there's often likegrieving and Squabble over over
that being able to take thatstep away and say this thing
that I am working on is not meMm-hmm, I think is table stakes
(21:13):
for producing great work.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
Yeah one of the things that's really stuck with
me that I've read this year isfrom Julie Zhu, who's an author
and former VP of design atFacebook, about falling in love
with the problem and not fallingin love with the solution.
If you fall in love with thesolution, your blinders go on.
You start to put this thing upon a pedestal and when the
(21:37):
market conditions change, yeahthe solution doesn't apply
anymore.
Right, but if you fall in lovewith the problem, then you keep
looking at new ways ofaddressing that problem, and I
think there's an applicationhere for for the storytelling
work that we do elegant way ofthinking.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
Relevant authentic keeping pace ability to shift.
Yeah, yeah right.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
So even on serious right, or even a conversation
where we're like I'm falling inlove with these people, I'm
falling in love with theconversation, falling in love
with the house, but what's thequote, what's the underlying
problem?
That on serious Solves forright and that's going to change
over time.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
What do you want this to become?
What do you where?
Speaker 3 (22:27):
do you want to see this going?
I mean, on serious, couldn't bebetter timed in my opinion.
It's 2023.
Yeah, we're post pandemic ish.
We're in the thick of a hugechange in the way of working, in
the way of who's working, inthe way of how those people are
treated and.
(22:49):
I would love for the idea of onserious lowering the stakes,
taking a different outlook onwhat work is and what how it
fits into our lives.
I'd like it to be a resetbutton for how we work post 2023
.
Hmm, our lives are now richer.
Our work is not the only partof our life.
Hmm, it's an important part ofour life and we're passionate
(23:11):
about it, but we have otherthings too.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Oh, how about you, molly?
What do you want?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
on serious to become like I think about on serious,
as being a place of refuge, aplace to rebuild your creative
spirit and mojo.
I want it to be an experiencethat resonates and let's folks
(23:36):
know that they are exceptionaltoo in what they do and can show
up as Like, show up with theirfull expertise and life
experiences in inproblem-solving, but they don't
have to give their full selves Ito work.
I think it's an opportunity tolearn from maybe this is a
(23:59):
little cheesy but kind of theunsung heroes of the
professional world today.
The folks that we were bringingon are the ones who lift up
leaders, who guide the toughestdecisions that companies and
nonprofits and governments haveto make.
They are the ones that teammembers at the same level or at
(24:22):
different levels come in andseek their wisdom and expertise
from.
So I think it's a chance togive these unsung professional
heroes the opportunity to beseen and recognized for the
really positive impact thatthey've had on their teams,
their work and their communities.
I feel recharged, I feelenergized, I feel a renewed
(24:46):
sense of optimism in theseconversations, and so I'm hoping
that we're able to scale beyondour networks to the next
network out.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
I think that's really beautifully said.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
What about you, JB?
What are your hopes for thefuture of Unserious?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
JB, I got one on a call.
You're the one that came upwith the idea of Unserious.
You came up with the idea of apodcast.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I initially started with because I wanted like,
clearly, audio is a thing andI've never worked in it before
I've been in a career break forthis time and I wanted to learn
it.
I wanted to build a platform.
I've built platforms forexecutives that I've worked with
for many, many years and wantedto have a platform about
(25:28):
something I cared about, whichis around the future of work how
we communicate, how we create,how we work together.
I think it's as you said, micahthere's so much changing right
now and, molly, as you say,there's so many brilliant minds
that, with so much to share thathaven't been mined yet, and so
there's so much amazingknowledge.
(25:50):
As I look to the future, Ithink like really building a
community around this throughpodcasts through what we're
doing.
That's where I'd like to seethis going, and it's not a
professional network that Ithink that we want.
It's like this group of peoplewho have a belief that we were
only scratching the surface onthe creative potential of these
(26:12):
organizations and like how do weget more of that?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, well, I think that's.
One of the things that broughtus all here was that all three
of us had a burnout moment, 100%, and our transitioning, how we
think about work, you know, andour own ambition, and so you
know.
I want to take a moment to one.
Thank you, jb, for theinvitation to co-host with you.
Oh God, yeah, it was a littlerocky at the start.
(26:37):
Thanks for making me giggle.
But it really has been thehighlight of the year and I get
a chance.
While we've been friends for solong, we've never had the
chance to work with each otherand I get to see like what I
love about our friendship in theworld of work and that feels so
special and you've created justa really great experience, I
(27:00):
think, for me and the listeners.
And then you introduced me toMagic Micah, who I'm pretty sure
there's nothing.
Micah cannot do.
But I mean Micah, thank you.
You make us sound good, youmake our.
You make our guests sound greatyeah you do show how great the
guests are and you're just areally kind and fabulous person
(27:23):
to work with.
I can't.
No one has any idea of theamount of technical challenges,
micah has had to hurdle overwith me to get me working on
this podcast.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
It's just you.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
So I mean talk about some grit for some perseverance.
Thanks, micah for hanging inthere with me.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
So, micah, tell our audience what we should be
expecting next season I meannext season we want to dig
deeper on a lot of the sametopics, with new people just
like you've described, atdifferent stages in their
careers All interesting,creative-minded people.
What are they doing?
How do we do more of it?
How can the rest of us learn?
(28:08):
What else are we going to hearabout?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So this season was quite focused on managing
creativity, I think, the ideasthat we want to broaden it out.
I want to talk about how wecommunicate up down sideways
better to actually create change.
How do we navigate our careers?
So many people are in a periodof transition right now,
including President Company, andI think that there are lessons
(28:34):
that we have.
There are lessons that othershave.
There's just sort of people whoare in the midst of the
ambiguousness who I'd love totalk to.
There are people who are muchmore seasoned than their careers
, thinking about retiring andlike what's their advice for
their 20-year-old self?
I love that.
I think, we're going to have alot of fun.
Yeah, you even had an idea thatwe could talk to our mothers oh
(28:56):
my gosh and find our mothersfor their wisdom.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
Oh wow.
I feel like we would all learnso much more about each other.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
I mean we'd have a lot of darlings to kill.
Speaker 4 (29:11):
Oh my gosh, yeah, and I think, like I look looking
forward, I hope we have westrengthen our relationship with
folks who are listening.
We want, you know, build uptheir ideas and expertise and
have the ability to bring thosefolks in to the unserious
universe as well.
That's right.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, let's hear from you all Listeners, what would
you like to hear about in thenext season?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, let us know.
Please do.
All right, I think that's theshow and that's the season.
Throughout this season, ourlisteners have shown up,
subscribing rating, sharing usThank you.
In the off season, we'll stillpop in from time to time on
Instagram and threads atUnseriousfun.
If you joined us mid season,you can catch all of our
(29:58):
previous episodes atunseriouscom, where you can also
learn more and connect with theunserious crew.
That's us.
Thanks for tuning in and we'llbe back next season with more
unserious.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
It's a matter of like a magic time.
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