April 30, 2025 • 28 mins
Leadership emerges as the pivotal focus of our discourse, underscoring its significance as the gateway to fostering a better world. We engage in a profound examination of how exemplary leaders catalyze the development of thriving organizations, ultimately contributing to the happiness of individuals within the workforce. Our esteemed guest, Yurian Palmer, brings invaluable insights, particularly his expertise in guiding leaders to enhance their impact by dismantling ineffective strategies, superfluous meetings, and bureaucratic hindrances. Throughout our conversation, we delve into the critical distinction between operating within a system and working on a system, illuminating the necessity for leaders to adopt a broader strategic perspective. This episode promises to equip listeners with actionable methodologies to refine their leadership approach and elevate their organizational efficacy.
The discourse presented within this podcast episode elucidates the fundamental essence of leadership as delineated by the host, Jaclyn Strominger, alongside her esteemed guest, Jurriaan Kamer. The conversation embarks upon the premise that effective leadership serves as a critical conduit towards fostering a better societal framework. Kamer, a connoisseur in the realm of organizational dynamics, expounds upon his extensive experience with radical and adaptive enterprises, including those devoid of conventional managerial hierarchies. He advocates for the necessity of eliminating inefficiencies such as superfluous meetings and bureaucratic obstacles that hinder organizational progress. The episode further delineates the distinction between operating within a system versus working on a system, a theme that resonates throughout the discussion. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their operational modalities, whether as leaders or entrepreneurs, and consider the implications of their strategic approaches on overall organizational efficacy. This dialogue not only reveals insights into Kamer's recent literary endeavor, 'Unblock', but also encapsulates actionable strategies for leaders aspiring to navigate the complexities of modern organizational landscapes.
Takeaways:
- Leadership is fundamentally the key to fostering a more positive and productive world.
- Effective communication between leadership and team members is essential for organizational success.
- Developing a clear vision and mission statement is critical for guiding a company forward.
- Organizations should prioritize creating systems that empower employees to make decisions independently.
- Leaders must engage directly with their teams to understand the realities of their operations.
- It is vital for organizations to involve employees in the strategic planning process to enhance buy-in and execution.
Mentioned in this episode:
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Episode Transcript
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(00:59):
Well, hello everybody, andwelcome back to another episode of
this amazing podcast. My nameis Jaclyn Strominger and I am your
host. And we are here to talkabout leadership. Leadership is,
I believe, the gateway to abetter world. When we have great
leaders and great companieswith great leaders, that means we
end up having great, happyemployees, which makes happy people
(01:22):
in the world. So today I havean amazing guest, Jurriaan Kamer,
if I got that right. Yep, he.Absolutely. You guys, he is stellar.
You are. I'm so excited tohave him on as a guest. First of
all, he actually helps leadersmake more impact by eliminating ineffective
(01:43):
strategy, pointless meetings,bureaucratic structures, and slow
decision making. I mean, weall think that's kind of horrible,
right? He has been in andaround the most radical and adaptive
organizations globally,including ones without managers and
high levels of autonomy. Hehas just written a great book called
Unblock. It's his second book,and he's here to talk to us about
(02:06):
amazing leadership. So welcometo the podcast.
Thank you for having me, Jaclyn.
Oh, and I wanted to say, andthe one thing that we are going to
learn as you are listening tothis, you are going to learn and
leave this podcast knowingabout having and working on a system
versus in a system. So whetheryou are a leader or you're just your
(02:30):
own entrepreneur or justyou're listening to this, personally
working on something versus insomething is hugely different. So,
yeah, so we're, we're here totalk about this. Thank you, Jurga.
So welcome.
Thank you for having me. Yeah,I'm excited to be here and looking
forward to this conversation.
Yeah. So, you know, I'm socurious. You know, you've had an
(02:50):
amazing career. So whatbrought you. What was your aha moment
that brought you to a numberone write the book Unblock and where
you are right now?
Yeah, yeah. So I had a pretty,you know, I have a pretty diverse
background, but I cameactually from it. I was a software
(03:11):
developer really early on inmy career. And just over the years,
I became more interested insolving human problems rather than
computer problems. I took onseveral roles as project manager,
interim manager, cto. And Ijust became obsessed with how do
you get large groups of humansto collaborate toward a shared outcome?
(03:32):
And yeah, I just saw the samekinds of organizational dysfunctions
and patterns showing upeverywhere. Didn't matter if it was
a small company, a bigcompany, every sector, and even across
the globe, when you get alarge group of humans together, they
somehow create the samedysfunctional system sometimes. So
I became. Became obsessed withthat. And, you know, the Last decade
(03:54):
I've been. Been consultingwith companies and helping leaders
to unblock theirorganizations. So yeah, it was, was
only fitting to. To make thatthe title of my second book.
Right. So when you think aboutobviously what you have seen in organizations,
if you could break it down andthis is, you know, I kind of love
(04:15):
to talk about things in steps.What would be the two key first steps
that you would tell a companyor a leader to make to start the
unblocking process?
Yeah, I think, I think there'stwo things, indeed there. Well, there's
many things, but I think thekey thing is, do you have, is it
clear to you what you'retrying to achieve? So strategy and
(04:38):
setting a certain strategicintent in the future is often something
that is what every company hasa strategy they think at least. But
if you really look closely atthe strategy, it's either unclear,
it doesn't contain any boldchoices, it's. Or it's long, long
lists of many PowerPointslides with lots of bullets. So the
tool of having an effectivestrategy is often not, not used well.
(05:02):
And so if you want to getsomewhere with your organization,
that's one of the first thingswe need to work at. And then secondly,
when there is a good strategyand people have an understanding
of where the organization isheaded, do you have a process of
continuously unblockingyourself? So do you have the skills
and the rituals to beconstantly on the lookout to finding
(05:24):
the next big blocker thattheir teams and the people are running
up against that you can takeaway and to go to the next level?
Right. So when you think aboutthose things you said, I will align
that with almost, you know,the two steps that I actually think
a lot of people need to make,which is, number one, first and foremost,
(05:45):
really know what your visionis, and two, define your mission.
Right, right, right. So youreally kind of have to take those
two key steps. So once youhave that. So why do you think people
are getting, you know, whenyou think they have all these PowerPoint
presentations and they havethese strategies, why are they getting
stuck?
(06:06):
Yeah, I think in terms of, interms of mission, vision or strategy,
what is often not happening isa conversation between the leaders
that set those things and thepeople that are executing it. So
often it's like when you talkto the people that are on the front
lines, they're like, you knowwhat, our leaders, they don't listen
to us, we don't speak to them.They always send us these kinds of
(06:29):
decks and I have no idea whatthey really mean or what it means
for us. I just tried to do my,my thing here and every time I have
an idea, like I have no ideahow I can get an improvement achieved
here. And then we talk to theleaders, they're like, oh, our people,
they don't get it. Like I'veexplained it 50 times and still they
don't seem to get it. Likethere's a real communication problem
between layers. And I think itcan be, yeah, that's an intent. You
(06:53):
know, if you want to overcomethat, you have to be intentional
in when you, when are youhaving those conversations? Are you
really accessible? And I meanevery will say their door is always
open. But are you reallylowering the thresholds for people
to speak to you? Are youhaving informal chats? Are you asking
people to give feedback onyour strategy? You know, there's,
(07:14):
there's a, there's a lot ofthings you can do and learn there.
Because if the people that arelooking at the strategy are honestly
telling you, like, I have noidea what this means or, or you know,
you know, you have this crazyidea to go somewhere, but the reality
of the day to day is somethingelse. That's when you really learn
and you start to become humble.
Right. You know, it's sointeresting because it's so true.
(07:35):
There's, you know, I'm, youknow, the thing that's like blazing
through my brain right now iscommunication. Right. I mean all
need to have and leveragecommunication effectively. And whether,
you know, and, and I'm goingto say leaders, as you're listening
to this or if you don't have ateam and you're an entrepreneur,
really understand that the waythat you communicate is so important
(07:57):
and to be able to share your,that vision and what, what you want
to be focusing on, you know,and using that almost like the KISS
method. Right. Keep it simple.Right. So when you're thinking about
this and we're, you know, whatis like the number one tip, you know,
that a leader or a team memberor a CEO can start with to help develop
(08:24):
great communication?
Yeah, I think it sounds maybetoo obvious, but is to talking to
people as much as you can.Getting out of your ivory tower,
getting out of those meetingrooms. Just in Japan, they say go
to the Gemba. It's from thelean methodology from the Toyota
(08:45):
pitch. I don't know if youknow it, but the leadership philosophy
of going to where the workhappens, rather than asking for a
report, inviting somebody intoyour leadership team meeting or sending
out a presentation, just go towhere the work is, sit next to one
of those employees for a dayand see what you learn. Pick up that
(09:08):
customer service, callyourself and see what happens. Really
invest in understanding therealities of the people that work
with you and work towards yourvision so that you can then really,
from that understanding, buildthe, the understanding that you want
to give. Yeah. So I think thatthat's where to start. And it's.
I don't know, like, there'ssomething about. There's maybe it's
(09:29):
a status thing or like, I'mtoo important or I'm too busy. All
these, all these things thatpeople are convinced about. You know,
there's lots of leadershipstories. There's. There's a CEO and
I'm sorry, I don't know thename of the company anymore, but
there's a famous CEO whoalways was the one in, in the canteen
putting the food on the platesevery day. And that was just one
(09:52):
of the things he always didone hour a day. And that was his
way to be among the people andto be accessible and to have a chat.
You know, it's about those.Finding those rituals that work for
you that, that gets you reallyin connection with those people.
So let's break it down again.I'm going to go break it into those
two steps. Sure. You knowwhat, you know, pick two things or
two steps that you can takeand start small. You know, whether.
(10:17):
And whether it is walkingaround the floor, so to speak, where
your employees are, or as yousaid, if you have a food court or
food commissary to hang out there.
Yeah.
Like, pick one of thosethings. And then potentially, I always
(10:38):
think it's maybe createsomething where you're having a coffee
chat where you almost leteverybody know, hey, you know what?
I'm having coffee. I'm goingto be here. Not in their space, not
in your space, but in aneutral space.
Yeah, yeah.
Sit with me.
Yeah, yeah. Some of the bestleaders, they just, every week, three
times a week, they have. Theyhave informal lunches where it's
(11:02):
like, you know, and thensomebody makes an effort to try to
invite as many people acrossthe organization to have the. Those
conversations at a lunchtable. And especially if you're doing
it across your organization,you're not only building connections
yourself with differentdepartments, but it's also about
enabling departments to talkto each other, which also is another
challenge that you see often.
(11:22):
Right. So the very interestingthing that you just said, too, is
like the interdepartmental. Ialso think it's really key. Again,
really take note of this. It'sreally important to be able to have
those conversationsinterdepartmentally so that you can
set it up. But also, you know,you've got the CEO or the founder
(11:45):
or whatever, whatever titleyou want to give yourself because
who really, it's just a, it'sa title. Who cares. Everybody in
your, in your fold is apartner and hopefully everybody thinks
that way. I hate the wordmanager. That's a whole other story.
But whether you're the CEO oryou are running a team, if you are
(12:07):
running a team, act like theCEO of that team and do the same
thing.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And to enable that, becausethat communication. All right, so
we've got really enablingcommunications. What else would be
another step that you wouldhave somebody take that would help
them unblock?
Yeah, yeah. If you start withthat idea like I have a strategy,
(12:31):
I have a vision, a mission. Iwant to realize. The one thing that
I always tell leaders is don'tmake the mistake of cascading your
strategy. And it's still thedefault. Like the leaders at the
top, they set the strategy orthe annual goal or the annual plan
and they ask the middlemanagers to cascade it down to the
teams and then hopefully theyexecute. Right. They hold the managers
(12:55):
accountable for executing. Thething that's really missing by that
is that you know, cascade isliterally going from the top down.
Like it comes from the wordwaterfall. You know, it's from the
waterfall that always cascadesdown. It never goes bottom up. And
the problem with that is thatyou're going to miss all the wisdom
of all the people that are onthe front lines. So the better way
to do it is to integrate andto self align teams. Invite teams
(13:16):
to self align. So that meanslike go and go and set your strategy.
That's great. First of all,definitely ask feedback if people
understand it. But the secondstep is to ask teams to, to craft
their own strategy based onyour strategy. Meaning, you know,
you know the organizationstrategy is X and our part of that
is Y and our contribution. Tomaximize your contribution, we are
(13:40):
going to. And then you'regoing to set the strategy or the
strategic intent of that team.And then also we're going to make
these trade offs. And if youinvite every team or department in
a conversation like that, youcreate a map of all the work and
all the strategies across theorganization. You are going to see
in real life A, if people gotit, you know, if people got the idea
and B, if the strategy isactually doing something, if it's
(14:02):
actually working, shaping thedecisions, day to day decisions in
a certain way. And then whensomething deviates, we're like, oh,
interesting you're pickingthis strategy. It's so different
from what I expected yourdepartment to do. Then you're going
to have that conversation withthem and say, hey, that's interesting.
Like let's hear it. And youknow, you can go into that conversation
saying, well, you should dothis or that, but then you're going
(14:22):
to fall into the same trapagain because people should be telling
you what they are intending todo based on your vision instead of
the other way around.
Right. You know, I love thatit's really being able to. Again,
I'm going to break it down twosteps. Number one, if you set the
idea and the vision that youwant to have for the company for
let's say for the year andthen second step is asking the teams
to say, okay, here's what wesaid. Step two is you now tell me
(14:47):
how either a, you want to getthere or do you believe in it?
Right.
And you know, what's, what areyou going to do? And, and the, I
think the other than the nexttwo steps are what, what are the
people within that team goingto do to hold themselves accountable?
Right.
How will they hold themselvesaccountable as a team together?
(15:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think theother part that's often missed and
could be a big value add ismake the trade offs. You're going
to make explicit, you know,you'll make, make a list of the things
you're not going to do or makethe list of the things that you're
willing to sacrifice at leastfor a period of time in order for
you to maximize your chancesto achieving the other thing. So
(15:28):
you know, speed, even overcost, for example, could be, could
be a trade off. You know,these are these kinds of heuristics
that are super helpful inmaking explicit that you know what,
we're going to spend a bitmore money, money now. But the upside
of that is that we're going togo faster. And if it just, it just
helps people set heuristics sothat they can make decisions, smart
decisions along the way andyou don't need to have to go to the
(15:51):
leadership team every timethat there's, that they're facing
a decision. You know, you havethese, this compass that people can
navigate, they can use tonavigate themselves.
Right. You know, I love, Ilike that. So you know, when you're,
when you're thinking about howyou're working and you, and you,
when we were talking before westarted the podcast you know, it's.
(16:12):
You share, you know, and wewere saying working on a system,
working in a system, you know,developing the roadmap versus being
the traffic hop.
Right.
So how hard is it for somebodyto go from the designer from the
traffic hop?
Yeah, yeah, it is hard,especially if you're the founder
(16:33):
of a company. You're used tobeing the person doing everything,
basically, until it scales up.It's a leadership shift that requires
lots of self awareness, Ithink, understanding where you still
have the desire to control andto really know what is going on in
(16:53):
detail and where you reallyneed to be involved. And I think
that the real challenge andthe leaders that get this right is
they are starting to setenabling constraints so they're able
to put in place boundariesthat are helpful so that they are
no longer the ones that needto control and check everything.
So there's something aboutrisk tolerance in there, you know,
clarifying risk tolerance foryourself and for the rest of the
(17:15):
system. There's somethingabout working agreements. When do
you still need to involve meand when not. It's about making decision
rights explicit. So for whattypes of decisions can you just go
and go on yourself? And that'swhat I mean with working on the system
is putting those agreements inplace so that the system just runs
(17:37):
without you. And I think it'svery liberating if you're able to
do that as a, especially as afounder or, you know, as a leader.
It. It really means that youcan go to bed at night without needing
to work 80 hours because youknow that if you're not there, the
system just hums and justrolls on, you know.
Right. Well, you just said acouple things that I think are really.
It's also, again, really takenote of this. It's systems. Right.
(17:57):
Because. And it's working. Youknow, if you can have systems in
place and have things designedand created within your company that
you know that it's going torun without you.
Yeah.
You don't have to have yourfoot and toe in everything. It is
(18:17):
so freeing. Yeah, it does. Itallows you to work above versus in.
And at some point in order toscale, you have to get to the point
where you're above. Yeah, notan above in the sense of I am above
all. It's more I am the personthat I founded this. I am above here
and we are working on strategyand I trust and I'm in the. And I'm
(18:41):
making sure that I haveenabled everybody on my team to work
as if I'm not even Here.
Yeah, exactly. It allows youto also have those moments to think
about longer term. You know,if you're not distracted every day
by all the small things, youcan get this long term perspective.
You can, you can see patterns,noticing patterns in the market,
(19:02):
you're seeing patterns in yourorganization. But that requires you
to have your hands free for sure.
Right. So how, how you know,in your experience how difficult
and has it been to, you know,for the leaders to actually make
it so that their hands are free?
Yeah, I mean, that variesperson by person. Some, some, for
(19:26):
some leaders is natural. Thoseare the ones that quickly hire people
around them at the start oftheir business because they just
recognize that they're not thebest person to do that work. Others
have more difficulty with itbecause basically their skill set
is in their way. Because youknow what, they're really good at
something. If you're going togive it to somebody else, the result
(19:49):
is always going to be a littlebit less. So it's all about perfection.
I think the thing that reallyhelps, I think in all of this is,
is a phrase or a mindset thatwe bring to our, to our clients.
Often is the concept of is itsafe to try? So we often go and have
a conversation and we asklike, do we all agree? Is this the
(20:11):
right decision? There's thisperfection thing that we have in
our company. So we say, oh, wehave to talk about it again, we have
to go make it better. We haveto ask for more information. But
the reality is many decisionsare reversible. And most of the times
when you, the only way toreally discover if something is the
right choice is to trysomething and make something small
and just do it rather thandebating it. So it can be like a
(20:36):
magic phrase for leaders tosay, you know, what do we need to
make this safe to try? Andthen you have that conversation,
which is really difficult.Different conversations where you
say, you know what, if we'regoing to do this, I'm afraid that
I will lose control over thisor that or I, I see these risks and
I really want you to knowthese risks and to make that, you
know, write it down, talkabout it and say, you know what,
these are the things that thefounder or the CEO finds really difficult
(20:58):
to let go of. Well, let's putsome agreements around that in place.
But other than that, maybe wecan just go, or we have this conversation.
Well, it's safe if we make ita little bit smaller or maybe we
do it for a short amount oftime and then we evaluate. Right.
So it's about running theseexperiments on changing the things
around you and changing thesystems so that you can gradually
(21:19):
feel more comfortable with,with letting go.
That's okay. So I'm going toask you like the $6 million question.
$6 million? Why isn't it 10?
Well, it could be 10 millionbecause, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm
somebody from like, you know,product of the 70s. Right. So I'm
like the $6 million man.Right, whatever.
Okay.
Right. So whatever multiplieryou want to put it in there, do.
(21:43):
Yeah, so I'll go, I'll go. Sixbillion. Right. So question, because
I know inherently the answer,but I want you to share it. And that
is, what have you seenprofitability wise? The difference
in a company when the CEOs andthe founders and the leaders are
(22:05):
able to be planners or workingon the systems versus what's that
bottom line impact?
Yeah, it's, it's huge. And itreally brings me back to, I think
it was an HBR article. Itmight even have been a book, the
Founder's Dilemma. And thesubtitle of the Founder's Dilemma
(22:25):
is do you want to be rich ordo you want to be king? And I really
love that kind of, you know.Yeah, I mean, it's so clear. Like
if you want to be financiallysuccessful, if you really want to
be able to grow your business,then you're going to, you know, then
you make the choice of hiringpeople around you. You know, if you
want to be king, that meansyou're still going to be in control.
You're going to stay the CEO,but your company's growth will be
(22:46):
limited by your own, your owntendencies, you know?
Right. That is such a great. Ilove that analogy too.
Yeah.
I've got songs that are goingthrough my head too right now.
And both, you know, I justwant to say, like, both, both are
valid answers. There's no goodright or wrong, you know? You know,
you don't need to be. You canhave a happy life if you're the king.
(23:07):
Right.
You can also have a miserablelife if you're rich. Right. But that's,
that's a different story.
Right? That's a whole, that'sa whole different story. That goes
back, I mean, that's also goesback to vision, a mission too. But
at the end of the day, what'sreal. What I think is really important
though is, is, you know,making that choice of where do you
want to be? Do you want to bethe king or do you, you know, Want
(23:27):
to be that person who, youknow, is, you know, has. Has a. Has
an army.
Yeah.
You know, of people or an armyof companies that. And you're able
to go travel without, youknow, people trying to always peck
at you. Right, right, right.Yeah, right, right. You always have
(23:50):
to, you know, so being able towork on your. On your business versus
just always being in yourbusiness is so amazing. So what is
next for you, Yurian? What areyour biggest goals? Like, what do
you want to accomplish?
Yeah, so I left a largeconsultancy two years ago. We started.
(24:12):
The four of us, we startedEnBlock, and we are helping clients
across the globe. And we'redoing well. Like, we're pretty busy.
We're focusing more and moreon strategy execution as a lens.
We're feeling that the marketis really pulling us toward that
thing. So our next goal is tobecome famous for having the strategy
(24:33):
execution framework thatalways works. And, yeah, part of
that is just finding morebrave clients that are willing to
try this stuff out.
That's fantastic. Okay, sotell everybody where they can find
you, connect with you, allthose great things.
Yeah. So on social media, I ammostly active on LinkedIn. And if
(24:58):
you want to learn more aboutour book, you can go to www.unblock.worksbook
or find a book on Amazon.
Oh, okay. All right, soeverybody, actually, I want you to
all go find the book. I willactually make sure I put the link
to the book in the show notesand links to Urian's LinkedIn profile
(25:19):
and the website. But really goout and connect. This is, to me,
one of the biggest things thatwe can do is help people connect
with other great people andchanging the world one person and
one connection at a time. So,you know, reach out and connect.
This is an, I'm gonna say,unstoppable leadership Spotlight
(25:41):
podcast. I'm gonna have toedit that one out, but thank you
all for listening to thepodcast. My name is Jaclyn Strominger
and I am your host and Ireally appreciate you listening.
If you've enjoyed listening tothis, please hit subscribe and follow
us and give us a review, aswell as share the podcast with your
(26:02):
friends and colleagues. Andthank you, Jurian, for being a great
guest.
Thank you.
Well, hello everybody, andwelcome back to another episode of
this amazing podcast. My nameis Jaclyn Strominger and I am your
host. And we are here to talkabout leadership. Leadership is,
I believe, the gateway to abetter world. When we have great
leaders and great companieswith great leaders, that means we
end up having great, happyemployees, which makes happy people
(01:22):
in the world. So today I havean amazing guest, Jurriaan Kamer,
if I got that right. Yep, he.Absolutely. You guys, he is stellar.
You are. I'm so excited tohave him on as a guest. First of
all, he actually helps leadersmake more impact by eliminating ineffective
(01:43):
strategy, pointless meetings,bureaucratic structures, and slow
decision making. I mean, weall think that's kind of horrible,
right? He has been in andaround the most radical and adaptive
organizations globally,including ones without managers and
high levels of autonomy. Hehas just written a great book called
Unblock. It's his second book,and he's here to talk to us about
(02:06):
amazing leadership. So welcometo the podcast.
Thank you for having me, Jaclyn.
Oh, and I wanted to say, andthe one thing that we are going to
learn as you are listening tothis, you are going to learn and
leave this podcast knowingabout having and working on a system
versus in a system. So whetheryou are a leader or you're just your
(02:30):
own entrepreneur or justyou're listening to this, personally
working on something versus insomething is hugely different. So,
yeah, so we're, we're here totalk about this. Thank you, Jurga.
So welcome.
Thank you for having me. Yeah,I'm excited to be here and looking
forward to this conversation.
Yeah. So, you know, I'm socurious. You know, you've had an
(02:50):
amazing career. So whatbrought you. What was your aha moment
that brought you to a numberone write the book Unblock and where
you are right now?
Yeah, yeah. So I had a pretty,you know, I have a pretty diverse
background, but I cameactually from it. I was a software
(03:11):
developer really early on inmy career. And just over the years,
I became more interested insolving human problems rather than
computer problems. I took onseveral roles as project manager,
interim manager, cto. And Ijust became obsessed with how do
you get large groups of humansto collaborate toward a shared outcome?
(03:32):
And yeah, I just saw the samekinds of organizational dysfunctions
and patterns showing upeverywhere. Didn't matter if it was
a small company, a bigcompany, every sector, and even across
the globe, when you get alarge group of humans together, they
somehow create the samedysfunctional system sometimes. So
I became. Became obsessed withthat. And, you know, the Last decade
(03:54):
I've been. Been consultingwith companies and helping leaders
to unblock theirorganizations. So yeah, it was, was
only fitting to. To make thatthe title of my second book.
Right. So when you think aboutobviously what you have seen in organizations,
if you could break it down andthis is, you know, I kind of love
(04:15):
to talk about things in steps.What would be the two key first steps
that you would tell a companyor a leader to make to start the
unblocking process?
Yeah, I think, I think there'stwo things, indeed there. Well, there's
many things, but I think thekey thing is, do you have, is it
clear to you what you'retrying to achieve? So strategy and
(04:38):
setting a certain strategicintent in the future is often something
that is what every company hasa strategy they think at least. But
if you really look closely atthe strategy, it's either unclear,
it doesn't contain any boldchoices, it's. Or it's long, long
lists of many PowerPointslides with lots of bullets. So the
tool of having an effectivestrategy is often not, not used well.
(05:02):
And so if you want to getsomewhere with your organization,
that's one of the first thingswe need to work at. And then secondly,
when there is a good strategyand people have an understanding
of where the organization isheaded, do you have a process of
continuously unblockingyourself? So do you have the skills
and the rituals to beconstantly on the lookout to finding
(05:24):
the next big blocker thattheir teams and the people are running
up against that you can takeaway and to go to the next level?
Right. So when you think aboutthose things you said, I will align
that with almost, you know,the two steps that I actually think
a lot of people need to make,which is, number one, first and foremost,
(05:45):
really know what your visionis, and two, define your mission.
Right, right, right. So youreally kind of have to take those
two key steps. So once youhave that. So why do you think people
are getting, you know, whenyou think they have all these PowerPoint
presentations and they havethese strategies, why are they getting
stuck?
(06:06):
Yeah, I think in terms of, interms of mission, vision or strategy,
what is often not happening isa conversation between the leaders
that set those things and thepeople that are executing it. So
often it's like when you talkto the people that are on the front
lines, they're like, you knowwhat, our leaders, they don't listen
to us, we don't speak to them.They always send us these kinds of
(06:29):
decks and I have no idea whatthey really mean or what it means
for us. I just tried to do my,my thing here and every time I have
an idea, like I have no ideahow I can get an improvement achieved
here. And then we talk to theleaders, they're like, oh, our people,
they don't get it. Like I'veexplained it 50 times and still they
don't seem to get it. Likethere's a real communication problem
between layers. And I think itcan be, yeah, that's an intent. You
(06:53):
know, if you want to overcomethat, you have to be intentional
in when you, when are youhaving those conversations? Are you
really accessible? And I meanevery will say their door is always
open. But are you reallylowering the thresholds for people
to speak to you? Are youhaving informal chats? Are you asking
people to give feedback onyour strategy? You know, there's,
(07:14):
there's a, there's a lot ofthings you can do and learn there.
Because if the people that arelooking at the strategy are honestly
telling you, like, I have noidea what this means or, or you know,
you know, you have this crazyidea to go somewhere, but the reality
of the day to day is somethingelse. That's when you really learn
and you start to become humble.
Right. You know, it's sointeresting because it's so true.
(07:35):
There's, you know, I'm, youknow, the thing that's like blazing
through my brain right now iscommunication. Right. I mean all
need to have and leveragecommunication effectively. And whether,
you know, and, and I'm goingto say leaders, as you're listening
to this or if you don't have ateam and you're an entrepreneur,
really understand that the waythat you communicate is so important
(07:57):
and to be able to share your,that vision and what, what you want
to be focusing on, you know,and using that almost like the KISS
method. Right. Keep it simple.Right. So when you're thinking about
this and we're, you know, whatis like the number one tip, you know,
that a leader or a team memberor a CEO can start with to help develop
(08:24):
great communication?
Yeah, I think it sounds maybetoo obvious, but is to talking to
people as much as you can.Getting out of your ivory tower,
getting out of those meetingrooms. Just in Japan, they say go
to the Gemba. It's from thelean methodology from the Toyota
(08:45):
pitch. I don't know if youknow it, but the leadership philosophy
of going to where the workhappens, rather than asking for a
report, inviting somebody intoyour leadership team meeting or sending
out a presentation, just go towhere the work is, sit next to one
of those employees for a dayand see what you learn. Pick up that
(09:08):
customer service, callyourself and see what happens. Really
invest in understanding therealities of the people that work
with you and work towards yourvision so that you can then really,
from that understanding, buildthe, the understanding that you want
to give. Yeah. So I think thatthat's where to start. And it's.
I don't know, like, there'ssomething about. There's maybe it's
(09:29):
a status thing or like, I'mtoo important or I'm too busy. All
these, all these things thatpeople are convinced about. You know,
there's lots of leadershipstories. There's. There's a CEO and
I'm sorry, I don't know thename of the company anymore, but
there's a famous CEO whoalways was the one in, in the canteen
putting the food on the platesevery day. And that was just one
(09:52):
of the things he always didone hour a day. And that was his
way to be among the people andto be accessible and to have a chat.
You know, it's about those.Finding those rituals that work for
you that, that gets you reallyin connection with those people.
So let's break it down again.I'm going to go break it into those
two steps. Sure. You knowwhat, you know, pick two things or
two steps that you can takeand start small. You know, whether.
(10:17):
And whether it is walkingaround the floor, so to speak, where
your employees are, or as yousaid, if you have a food court or
food commissary to hang out there.
Yeah.
Like, pick one of thosethings. And then potentially, I always
(10:38):
think it's maybe createsomething where you're having a coffee
chat where you almost leteverybody know, hey, you know what?
I'm having coffee. I'm goingto be here. Not in their space, not
in your space, but in aneutral space.
Yeah, yeah.
Sit with me.
Yeah, yeah. Some of the bestleaders, they just, every week, three
times a week, they have. Theyhave informal lunches where it's
(11:02):
like, you know, and thensomebody makes an effort to try to
invite as many people acrossthe organization to have the. Those
conversations at a lunchtable. And especially if you're doing
it across your organization,you're not only building connections
yourself with differentdepartments, but it's also about
enabling departments to talkto each other, which also is another
challenge that you see often.
(11:22):
Right. So the very interestingthing that you just said, too, is
like the interdepartmental. Ialso think it's really key. Again,
really take note of this. It'sreally important to be able to have
those conversationsinterdepartmentally so that you can
set it up. But also, you know,you've got the CEO or the founder
(11:45):
or whatever, whatever titleyou want to give yourself because
who really, it's just a, it'sa title. Who cares. Everybody in
your, in your fold is apartner and hopefully everybody thinks
that way. I hate the wordmanager. That's a whole other story.
But whether you're the CEO oryou are running a team, if you are
(12:07):
running a team, act like theCEO of that team and do the same
thing.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
And to enable that, becausethat communication. All right, so
we've got really enablingcommunications. What else would be
another step that you wouldhave somebody take that would help
them unblock?
Yeah, yeah. If you start withthat idea like I have a strategy,
(12:31):
I have a vision, a mission. Iwant to realize. The one thing that
I always tell leaders is don'tmake the mistake of cascading your
strategy. And it's still thedefault. Like the leaders at the
top, they set the strategy orthe annual goal or the annual plan
and they ask the middlemanagers to cascade it down to the
teams and then hopefully theyexecute. Right. They hold the managers
(12:55):
accountable for executing. Thething that's really missing by that
is that you know, cascade isliterally going from the top down.
Like it comes from the wordwaterfall. You know, it's from the
waterfall that always cascadesdown. It never goes bottom up. And
the problem with that is thatyou're going to miss all the wisdom
of all the people that are onthe front lines. So the better way
to do it is to integrate andto self align teams. Invite teams
(13:16):
to self align. So that meanslike go and go and set your strategy.
That's great. First of all,definitely ask feedback if people
understand it. But the secondstep is to ask teams to, to craft
their own strategy based onyour strategy. Meaning, you know,
you know the organizationstrategy is X and our part of that
is Y and our contribution. Tomaximize your contribution, we are
(13:40):
going to. And then you'regoing to set the strategy or the
strategic intent of that team.And then also we're going to make
these trade offs. And if youinvite every team or department in
a conversation like that, youcreate a map of all the work and
all the strategies across theorganization. You are going to see
in real life A, if people gotit, you know, if people got the idea
and B, if the strategy isactually doing something, if it's
(14:02):
actually working, shaping thedecisions, day to day decisions in
a certain way. And then whensomething deviates, we're like, oh,
interesting you're pickingthis strategy. It's so different
from what I expected yourdepartment to do. Then you're going
to have that conversation withthem and say, hey, that's interesting.
Like let's hear it. And youknow, you can go into that conversation
saying, well, you should dothis or that, but then you're going
(14:22):
to fall into the same trapagain because people should be telling
you what they are intending todo based on your vision instead of
the other way around.
Right. You know, I love thatit's really being able to. Again,
I'm going to break it down twosteps. Number one, if you set the
idea and the vision that youwant to have for the company for
let's say for the year andthen second step is asking the teams
to say, okay, here's what wesaid. Step two is you now tell me
(14:47):
how either a, you want to getthere or do you believe in it?
Right.
And you know, what's, what areyou going to do? And, and the, I
think the other than the nexttwo steps are what, what are the
people within that team goingto do to hold themselves accountable?
Right.
How will they hold themselvesaccountable as a team together?
(15:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think theother part that's often missed and
could be a big value add ismake the trade offs. You're going
to make explicit, you know,you'll make, make a list of the things
you're not going to do or makethe list of the things that you're
willing to sacrifice at leastfor a period of time in order for
you to maximize your chancesto achieving the other thing. So
(15:28):
you know, speed, even overcost, for example, could be, could
be a trade off. You know,these are these kinds of heuristics
that are super helpful inmaking explicit that you know what,
we're going to spend a bitmore money, money now. But the upside
of that is that we're going togo faster. And if it just, it just
helps people set heuristics sothat they can make decisions, smart
decisions along the way andyou don't need to have to go to the
(15:51):
leadership team every timethat there's, that they're facing
a decision. You know, you havethese, this compass that people can
navigate, they can use tonavigate themselves.
Right. You know, I love, Ilike that. So you know, when you're,
when you're thinking about howyou're working and you, and you,
when we were talking before westarted the podcast you know, it's.
(16:12):
You share, you know, and wewere saying working on a system,
working in a system, you know,developing the roadmap versus being
the traffic hop.
Right.
So how hard is it for somebodyto go from the designer from the
traffic hop?
Yeah, yeah, it is hard,especially if you're the founder
(16:33):
of a company. You're used tobeing the person doing everything,
basically, until it scales up.It's a leadership shift that requires
lots of self awareness, Ithink, understanding where you still
have the desire to control andto really know what is going on in
(16:53):
detail and where you reallyneed to be involved. And I think
that the real challenge andthe leaders that get this right is
they are starting to setenabling constraints so they're able
to put in place boundariesthat are helpful so that they are
no longer the ones that needto control and check everything.
So there's something aboutrisk tolerance in there, you know,
clarifying risk tolerance foryourself and for the rest of the
(17:15):
system. There's somethingabout working agreements. When do
you still need to involve meand when not. It's about making decision
rights explicit. So for whattypes of decisions can you just go
and go on yourself? And that'swhat I mean with working on the system
is putting those agreements inplace so that the system just runs
(17:37):
without you. And I think it'svery liberating if you're able to
do that as a, especially as afounder or, you know, as a leader.
It. It really means that youcan go to bed at night without needing
to work 80 hours because youknow that if you're not there, the
system just hums and justrolls on, you know.
Right. Well, you just said acouple things that I think are really.
It's also, again, really takenote of this. It's systems. Right.
(17:57):
Because. And it's working. Youknow, if you can have systems in
place and have things designedand created within your company that
you know that it's going torun without you.
Yeah.
You don't have to have yourfoot and toe in everything. It is
(18:17):
so freeing. Yeah, it does. Itallows you to work above versus in.
And at some point in order toscale, you have to get to the point
where you're above. Yeah, notan above in the sense of I am above
all. It's more I am the personthat I founded this. I am above here
and we are working on strategyand I trust and I'm in the. And I'm
(18:41):
making sure that I haveenabled everybody on my team to work
as if I'm not even Here.
Yeah, exactly. It allows youto also have those moments to think
about longer term. You know,if you're not distracted every day
by all the small things, youcan get this long term perspective.
You can, you can see patterns,noticing patterns in the market,
(19:02):
you're seeing patterns in yourorganization. But that requires you
to have your hands free for sure.
Right. So how, how you know,in your experience how difficult
and has it been to, you know,for the leaders to actually make
it so that their hands are free?
Yeah, I mean, that variesperson by person. Some, some, for
(19:26):
some leaders is natural. Thoseare the ones that quickly hire people
around them at the start oftheir business because they just
recognize that they're not thebest person to do that work. Others
have more difficulty with itbecause basically their skill set
is in their way. Because youknow what, they're really good at
something. If you're going togive it to somebody else, the result
(19:49):
is always going to be a littlebit less. So it's all about perfection.
I think the thing that reallyhelps, I think in all of this is,
is a phrase or a mindset thatwe bring to our, to our clients.
Often is the concept of is itsafe to try? So we often go and have
a conversation and we asklike, do we all agree? Is this the
(20:11):
right decision? There's thisperfection thing that we have in
our company. So we say, oh, wehave to talk about it again, we have
to go make it better. We haveto ask for more information. But
the reality is many decisionsare reversible. And most of the times
when you, the only way toreally discover if something is the
right choice is to trysomething and make something small
and just do it rather thandebating it. So it can be like a
(20:36):
magic phrase for leaders tosay, you know, what do we need to
make this safe to try? Andthen you have that conversation,
which is really difficult.Different conversations where you
say, you know what, if we'regoing to do this, I'm afraid that
I will lose control over thisor that or I, I see these risks and
I really want you to knowthese risks and to make that, you
know, write it down, talkabout it and say, you know what,
these are the things that thefounder or the CEO finds really difficult
(20:58):
to let go of. Well, let's putsome agreements around that in place.
But other than that, maybe wecan just go, or we have this conversation.
Well, it's safe if we make ita little bit smaller or maybe we
do it for a short amount oftime and then we evaluate. Right.
So it's about running theseexperiments on changing the things
around you and changing thesystems so that you can gradually
(21:19):
feel more comfortable with,with letting go.
That's okay. So I'm going toask you like the $6 million question.
$6 million? Why isn't it 10?
Well, it could be 10 millionbecause, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm
somebody from like, you know,product of the 70s. Right. So I'm
like the $6 million man.Right, whatever.
Okay.
Right. So whatever multiplieryou want to put it in there, do.
(21:43):
Yeah, so I'll go, I'll go. Sixbillion. Right. So question, because
I know inherently the answer,but I want you to share it. And that
is, what have you seenprofitability wise? The difference
in a company when the CEOs andthe founders and the leaders are
(22:05):
able to be planners or workingon the systems versus what's that
bottom line impact?
Yeah, it's, it's huge. And itreally brings me back to, I think
it was an HBR article. Itmight even have been a book, the
Founder's Dilemma. And thesubtitle of the Founder's Dilemma
(22:25):
is do you want to be rich ordo you want to be king? And I really
love that kind of, you know.Yeah, I mean, it's so clear. Like
if you want to be financiallysuccessful, if you really want to
be able to grow your business,then you're going to, you know, then
you make the choice of hiringpeople around you. You know, if you
want to be king, that meansyou're still going to be in control.
You're going to stay the CEO,but your company's growth will be
(22:46):
limited by your own, your owntendencies, you know?
Right. That is such a great. Ilove that analogy too.
Yeah.
I've got songs that are goingthrough my head too right now.
And both, you know, I justwant to say, like, both, both are
valid answers. There's no goodright or wrong, you know? You know,
you don't need to be. You canhave a happy life if you're the king.
(23:07):
Right.
You can also have a miserablelife if you're rich. Right. But that's,
that's a different story.
Right? That's a whole, that'sa whole different story. That goes
back, I mean, that's also goesback to vision, a mission too. But
at the end of the day, what'sreal. What I think is really important
though is, is, you know,making that choice of where do you
want to be? Do you want to bethe king or do you, you know, Want
(23:27):
to be that person who, youknow, is, you know, has. Has a. Has
an army.
Yeah.
You know, of people or an armyof companies that. And you're able
to go travel without, youknow, people trying to always peck
at you. Right, right, right.Yeah, right, right. You always have
(23:50):
to, you know, so being able towork on your. On your business versus
just always being in yourbusiness is so amazing. So what is
next for you, Yurian? What areyour biggest goals? Like, what do
you want to accomplish?
Yeah, so I left a largeconsultancy two years ago. We started.
(24:12):
The four of us, we startedEnBlock, and we are helping clients
across the globe. And we'redoing well. Like, we're pretty busy.
We're focusing more and moreon strategy execution as a lens.
We're feeling that the marketis really pulling us toward that
thing. So our next goal is tobecome famous for having the strategy
(24:33):
execution framework thatalways works. And, yeah, part of
that is just finding morebrave clients that are willing to
try this stuff out.
That's fantastic. Okay, sotell everybody where they can find
you, connect with you, allthose great things.
Yeah. So on social media, I ammostly active on LinkedIn. And if
(24:58):
you want to learn more aboutour book, you can go to www.unblock.worksbook
or find a book on Amazon.
Oh, okay. All right, soeverybody, actually, I want you to
all go find the book. I willactually make sure I put the link
to the book in the show notesand links to Urian's LinkedIn profile
(25:19):
and the website. But really goout and connect. This is, to me,
one of the biggest things thatwe can do is help people connect
with other great people andchanging the world one person and
one connection at a time. So,you know, reach out and connect.
This is an, I'm gonna say,unstoppable leadership Spotlight
(25:41):
podcast. I'm gonna have toedit that one out, but thank you
all for listening to thepodcast. My name is Jaclyn Strominger
and I am your host and Ireally appreciate you listening.
If you've enjoyed listening tothis, please hit subscribe and follow
us and give us a review, aswell as share the podcast with your
(26:02):
friends and colleagues. Andthank you, Jurian, for being a great
guest.
Thank you.
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