You don't have to work so hard - with Cathy Heller - Untethered with Jen Liss

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi and welcome to Untethered with Jen Liss, the
podcast that's here to help youbreak free, be you and unleash
your inner brilliance.
I'm your host, jen, and in thisepisode we're going to talk
about letting go of hustleculture and inviting ease and
simple success.
Let's dive in.
Hey there, unicorn, it's Jen.

(00:33):
Welcome back to the podcast foran incredibly special episode.
Before we begin this episode, Iwant to share with you a lesson
that came to me after thisepisode was recorded, and the
basis of this lesson is an ideathat a lot of us hear but it's

(00:56):
hard to trust.
It's difficult to actuallyfollow this concept and
understand this concept, andit's an idea that's talked about
a lot in the coaching world,and that idea is to set the
intention and to bless it andrelease it and to trust that it
is going to come your way.
Now we hear this, we talk aboutthis, and it's really freaking

(01:20):
hard to trust this.
Let's be really, reallystraight and honest, and I
myself have had such arollercoaster experience with
this and, at the same time, thepast couple of years, and just
with my growth with this and mypractice with it, I have begun
to see manifestations, very realmanifestations, of intentions

(01:41):
that I placed out into theuniverse years ago,
manifestations of intentionsthat I placed out into the
universe years ago beginning tocome to life.
Now here's the second part ofthis idea of trusting,
surrendering, blessing,releasing, believing that the
universe has your back and thatwhat is actually meant for you
can't miss you, because when youset the intention out there and
you open up to receive it, thatthat blessing will come into

(02:02):
your life, which is actuallysomething you're going to hear
about in this episode more andmore.
There's the second part of it,which is that it doesn't always
come to you in the way that youthink, and that is a huge part
of releasing the outcome,because you might desire to have
this very specific beautifulhouse and that house might come

(02:24):
to have this very specificbeautiful house, and that house
might come to you.
It might be the exact visionthat you have in your head, but
it might actually be completelydifferent and, even better, it
could come to you in some newform, in some new way, not in
the way that you expect oranticipate.
In fact, the best things inlife very rarely come to us in
the way that we expect oranticipate, and, my goodness,

(02:45):
what a lesson that is to learn,but this is one of those things.
So what I'm sharing with youtoday is an episode, and this
episode is actually me and amentor of mine.
She's been a mentor of mine formany years and I currently
support her.
I work on her team and so manythings about this have

(03:07):
manifested in this really wildway, but one of the things when
I started this podcast she's mymentor.
I love her, I appreciate her.
She's helped me so much in mylife.
Her name is Kathy Heller and I,of course, at the top of my
list of people who I want tointerview for my podcast is the
person who helped me start mypodcast, kathy Heller.

(03:29):
Of course I want to interviewher and I set that intention.
I also set it for Jim Carrey,so he's coming my way.
Joseph Gordon Leavitt alsocoming my way.
Many other amazing human beingsthat I have on that list, but
one of them was Kathy.
Now, I've never actuallypursued or intentionally reached

(03:50):
out to her and said, hey, willyou come on my podcast, which
that's one very normal way thatshe could have come onto my
podcast, but I very much setthat intention and I said this
is one of those things that Idesire to happen in my life.
I blessed it, I released it, Icontinued on my journey and have
interviewed some of the.
I've actually interviewed someof the people who are on that
list, not just Gordon Levitt orJim Carrey.

(04:11):
I ended up in a roundabout waythat I never could have and I
could have never imagined theway that this interview would
have come about.
In fact, I did not record whatyou are about to hear, this
episode today, with intention tointerview Kathy on my podcast.
What actually happened is thatKathy has a new book.

(04:33):
It's an amazing new book.
If you have not purchased thisbook, please go purchase it
right now.
Kathyhellercom book.
It's called Abundant Ever After.
It will change your life.
It will change your life.
If there is one book that Ihave ever said on this podcast,

(04:58):
go buy this book right now.
It is this book right hereTransformative.
If you do not have $26 to go tokathyhellercom book, find a
supplier and buy this book.
If you do not have $26 to buythis book, I will buy it for you
and I will send it directly toyour doorstep.
So send me an email to hello atgenlisscom and I will give me
your address.
Give me your name, I will sendyou this book.

(05:20):
This is how much I wanteverybody in the world to read
this book.
This is how much I wanteverybody in the world to read
this book.
Anyway, I work on Kathy's teamand she needs somebody to
interview her for this beautifulapp that she is doing an
interview on called FishbowlLive, where they have you bring
your own moderator and youmoderate a conversation.
She needed somebody tointerview her, so I was like,

(05:40):
well, of course I'll do it.
So I interviewed her and thenafterward I was like, oh my gosh
, I just interviewed Kathy,basically a podcast interview.
Sure, I might have selected acouple of the questions
slightly't even because I wantto have you on my podcast.
It was because I want tosupport your book.

(06:08):
I want more people to knowabout you, to know about your
message.
It came from a pure, justabundant, gorgeous place that I
was just like.
I just want more people to hearthis.
And that's how she ends up onmy podcast.
And I tell you this to hearthis.
And that's how she ends up onmy podcast.
And I tell you this, and Ipreface this entire episode with

(06:28):
this, because this is howmanifestation truly works.
It comes from this place offollowing your intuition,
following your trust, taking onestep after another, setting the
intention, blessing andreleasing it, moving forward and
then moving with everythingfrom a place of pure goodness,
joy, wholeness, fun, showing upin your magic, showing up for

(06:52):
yourself, showing up for othersin a way that you know is
serving, and then it justhappens.
It just happens.
This happens to me the more andmore I really live by the
principles of what Kathy isabout to share in this episode.
I truly I've been learning fromher.
Everything that I have beensharing over the past few years

(07:12):
is because of the deep innerwork that I have been doing.
This entire podcast is becauseof the deep inner work that she
was really the catalyst for meto move into this journey, and
so, of any episode that I everhave put on the podcast, this is
one to really listen to, and ifyou're interested in diving

(07:33):
into Kathy's work, you canfollow her podcast.
It's the same name as her book,abundant Ever After.
You can go to kathyhellercomand follow her.
She's on Instagram at KathyHeller.
I work on her team, I supporther team, so a lot of the things
that you see out and about.
I'm involved in and have so muchfun getting the opportunity
right now to work with her, andone of the things that she and I

(07:57):
have an agreement it's likethis is going to work for as
long as it works.
The universe in many ways toldme that I'm intended to be
supporting her on her team rightnow, and I love it.
It's been so much fun and sucha magical experience for me, so
I'm so thrilled to share thisepisode with you, where you get
to hear us just conversing abouta few of the things that are

(08:19):
really important right now, andone of those is hustle culture.
We have been hustling every day.
We've been hustling since theindustrial revolution, and the
earth is calling for somethingdifferent.
It's calling for change, and alot of us are feeling this, and
a lot of us feel like we'reweird because we might be

(08:41):
feeling something different.
We might be experiencingsomething different than what
our grandparents did, ourparents did, what we were taught
, and that's for good reason.
There is a huge shift that ishappening right now and the
things Kathy is very much at theforefront and has been thinking
about this and teaching aboutthis for longer than COVID

(09:02):
really accelerated the rate atwhich we are all really noticing
that it's like, oh my gosh,there is a different way to do
things and we're being called todo it differently.
So open up your ears, open upyour heart, open up your mind,
your soul, for this beautifulconversation that was recorded
on that app that I told youabout Fishbowl Live.

(09:23):
If you're a professional, itmight be an app that you might
you about Fishbowl Live.
If you're a professional, itmight be an app that you might
consider checking out.
There's a lot of really coolconversations going on there all
the time, so you can check outfishbowllivecom, you can go
check out their app and see ifthat's something that you might
be interested in, and thank youto them for letting me take the
audio from this conversation andput it on my podcast today in
order to help get this messageout there to more people.

(09:46):
Now, before we officially divein to this conversation with
Kathy, I want to remind you thatthis week, january 8th, 5.30 pm
Pacific time, I am having aparty.
It's my word of the year party.
I'm going to show you whycrafting an intentional word of
the year, I truly believe, isyour very best New Year's party

(10:07):
trick.
It is going to help you getthrough this year with intention
, with ease, without hustle,with whatever it is that you are
calling in.
I have a specific process.
I've been doing this for years.
I think this is my sixth year,I don't even know.
I've been doing this a lot ofyears.
It's a lot of fun.
Lots of people come back eachyear.
We have so much fun reflectingon the word that we had last

(10:28):
year and then the word thatwe're choosing this year, and if
you've even already chosen aword, it's a great party to come
to.
So you can go to genliscomslash 2025, genliscom slash 2025
, and you can go and registertotally free.
Come, come in your PJs, come inyour best party clothes, come

(10:48):
in costume, I don't care, justcome, show up.
We'll have so much fun.
There's also going to be somegiveaways.
So go to genliscom slash 2025and come and party with me.
I would absolutely love it.
Now, without further ado, I'mexcited for you to get to hear
this conversation with me andKathy Heller.
Let's dive in.
So we're joined by Kathy, whois a bestselling author.

(11:12):
Her book just came out onTuesday.
Snap your fingers for that.
She's a spiritual mentor,entrepreneur, and this book that
came out Abundant Ever After isalready transforming the way
that people think about successand fulfillment.
So Kathy's here to guide usthrough really this important
shift of moving away from thegrind of hustle culture and

(11:33):
moving toward a more intentional, aligned and abundant way of
living.
So we're going to explore somemyths of hustle culture, how to
clear emotional blocks that tendto keep us stuck, and how we
can tune into ourselves andunlock the secrets to living our
most abundant lives.
So welcome Kathy, welcomeeverybody to this conversation

(11:54):
that was so beautiful, jen.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
So beautiful.
It's really fun to be here, andI just want to say right away,
with so much humility, that eachof you who are listening could
be speaking, and I'm sure you doplenty of that and you have
tremendous amounts of wisdom.
And so I just want to start bysaying that if anything I say
feels true, it's because youalready knew that, but sometimes

(12:20):
it's good to be reminded ofwhat we deeply know in our heart
, and so I believe to be true,but I just want to acknowledge
them.
That's in everyone, that's inthis room.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, that's so beautiful.
And, speaking of everybody inthe room, we would love the
opportunity at some point foryou to be able to ask questions,
so you can leave questionsanonymously.
If you would like to leave aquestion anonymously, you can
also raise your hand.
At some point.
We might invite a few of you upto ask questions, because
you'll probably have somequestions for Kathy as we move

(12:52):
through this conversation.
So you're so welcome to do thatand let's dive in.
Kathy, what do you think?

Speaker 2 (12:58):
I love it.
Anytime I'm talking to you, I'mhappy and I'm up for that any
day of the week.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Okay, well, here's the top question that so many
people probably have coming intothis conversation.
In your book, you actuallychallenge the glorification of
hustle culture and the idea ofworking so hard, which is
something that a lot of leaders,entrepreneurs, people who you
work with every day reallystruggle with.

(13:25):
What do you think are some ofthe most harmful myths about
hustle culture that are causingpeople to feel burnout and to
feel stuck in their careers andin their businesses?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
Oh, my goodness, just the question alone makes me
want to take a deep inhale and adeep exhale.
And you and I were talkingabout this the other day, as we
often do.
But you said to me that this isactually so controversial.
And it's controversial in thesense that we're so married to
the idea that the harder we work, the more successful we are,

(14:02):
and that hard work is somethingto glorify to use the word you
used before that it almost feelscontroversial to talk about
ease.
It almost feels irresponsible,it almost feels like shaking off
what is your duty.
And really, as Kate Northrup, afriend of ours, says so well in

(14:24):
her book Do Less.
She says, anyone who's everworked on land, who's gardened
or who's harvested or who'sfarmed land, knows that if you
were to harvest the ground everysingle day, you would deplete
the ground of its nutrition.
And that is why, if you eat atomato in the United States when

(14:45):
you can go to the grocery storeand at any moment everything is
always in season 24-7, 365,those things stop tasting really
delicious.
But if you go to Italy and yougo to a small town where they
only harvest in the harvestseason, that tomato, it's
unbelievably life-giving.
It doesn't even need balsamicbecause it's so delicious.
And so you know, there issomething to marinating, there

(15:09):
is something to composting,there is something to simmering
in something, as opposed toalways publishing work, always
hustling.
It's like what about?
You know?
I've said before that if youtake a little stone and you
throw it in the water, you'llmake a ripple.
But if you take a big stone,you'll make a big ripple.
So what's more important?
Is it more important to keepjust throwing stones and

(15:31):
hustling, hustling, hustling?
Or is it?
Perhaps will it get you furtherif you were to truly come from
a place of watering your owngarden and then when you go to
put something in the world, itmakes a giant ripple.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
And maybe the slowing down then is actually speeding
up your success.
Yeah, so what does it reallymean from your perspective, this
idea of watering your owngarden?
What does that actually looklike, especially if we're those
people who are so used toachieving and doing and going?
What does that actually looklike?

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Well, I mean, I think that there is just this really
fascinating thing that'shappened in the world, where
we've valued being human doingsmore than being human beings.
And the brain.
You know, as fascinating as thebrain is, there's really no
answers in the brain, you know,the wisdom is really coming from
somewhere else, it's comingfrom intuition, it's coming from

(16:27):
our heart, and so if we're notspending time really nourishing
the capacity we have to listen,you know the word insight is
very interesting because it'sletting us know it comes from
within.
And so there is a practice thatmany people have now started to
develop, which is some kind ofmeditation practice.

(16:50):
And there's a reason for that,because when you deeply find a
way to slow down, you get intogamma, which means your brain
actually gets overridden bycreative thought, which is
faster than the speed of light.
So the real geniuses in thisworld, you know Steve Jobs.

(17:13):
People don't often know that hewas a Zen meditator for 15
years before he started Apple.
So his capacity to turn on sucha giant light in the world came
from having a real creativeflow state.
And creative flow state comesfrom overriding the amygdala and

(17:33):
the brain and really slowingdown to speed up, right, and so
we know that Michael Jordan, weknow that Phil Jackson had the
bulls meditating right, and so Ithink, whatever we can do to
slow down and to check in withthe part of us that actually has
wisdom, that would be what Iwould call watering your own

(17:56):
garden.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I'm curious.
You talk about building ameditation practice and there's
a lot of people waking up to thevalue of this.
We see this in businesses.
We see them starting to bringin some meditation and some
mindfulness practices.
That's definitely somethingthat we're starting to learn.
But when did you kind of wakeup and realize this idea of

(18:18):
tuning into yourself?
Did you have?
Can you share a story from yourown life where this shift
transformed your own path?

Speaker 2 (18:26):
up extending my trip for three years and so I stayed
and learned Jewish mysticism andKabbalah in the old city of
Jerusalem for three years, whichwas quite life-changing.

(18:51):
That was like hittingcontrol-alt-delete on the
software program in my brain andthen, for whatever reason, I
just felt compelled to move toLos Angeles.
I didn't know anybody here andthen right away I found myself
at a meditation retreat at UCLA.
They had this mindful awarenessresearch center, which some
people might be familiar with,and I wound up staying there for

(19:13):
three years and that was reallyinteresting, because my first
meditation experience there waslike torture and it was so hard
that I was all of a suddenextremely compelled by it,
because I thought why is this sohard for me?
And my meditation teacher taughtme something which really
helped tremendously, and shesaid that meditation is not

(19:35):
about trying to make your mindgo blank.
She said minds don't do that.
Minds are always thinking.
Just like hearts are alwaysbeating, minds are always
swirling and the idea is not tonot think.
The idea is to become a witnessto your mind and, instead of
being caught in the blizzard ofthe thought, you are witnessing
the blizzard, which means youare now accessing the part of

(19:56):
you that is in touch with yourconsciousness.
You are conscious, you're notunconscious, and so, from the
part of you that's conscious,you can select the thought.
You can choose what you want tothink, rather than being
unconsciously in a deluge ofthoughts.
And why we know that's bad isbecause all thoughts actually
detrimental to our cells, andcertain thoughts can create

(20:18):
serotonin and dopamine, and soby choosing to think certain
thoughts, becoming conscious andchoosing to be the captain of
what your brain is choosing tofocus on, you could actually

(20:38):
make your body well, and so thatwas like a major up level.
And then I spent a few yearsstudying meditation, and then I
was teaching meditation for afew years in 2007, 8, 9.
And then I started noticingthat everything I was doing in
my business was having atremendous result because of my

(20:58):
spiritual practices, and then Istarted teaching those.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, so I'm curious if you can share.
And then I started teachingthose, yeah, so I'm curious if
you can share.
Now.
I've been down this rabbit holewith you because, for everybody
in the room, I myself was in acorporate job and I found myself
stuck and I was like Kathy Idon't even know if I've ever
told you this story I waslooking for something.

(21:23):
I was like I want to grow and Idon't know how.
And I went to every singlecoworker of mine and every
single leader who was in mygeneral jurisdiction and was
like, what should I do?
What should I do?
Nobody could tell me what Ishould do, of course, and so I
went to a podcasting app and Iliterally wrote in creative
career help and your podcastcame up, and I found your

(21:47):
podcast and it led me down thisrabbit hole and there were so
many things that I did notrealize that I was thinking and
doing and being that was nothelpful, and so, if you could
underscore a few of those thingsthat you think you kind of
generally see, these are thethings that people are out there

(22:08):
doing that are making things sodang hard for them when it
could be different, because nowI'm living the different myself
and I see you helping peoplewith this all the time.
It's like so many stories justlike me.
What do you think some of thosetop things are that people
could be shifting in terms oftheir thoughts.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Well, one of the biggest ones, which is really
fascinating, is the part of usthat resists authenticity.
And the reason why this is socritical for creative work or
for entrepreneurship is because,in order to have an audience,
in order to have a business, inorder to scale right and have
visibility, you have to dosomething really brave, which is

(22:50):
you have to stand out.
And in order to stand out, bydefinition, you can't fit in.
And the reason why that's sointeresting as it relates to
creative work and as it relatesto business, and why I think
this is really pervasive inthought, is because, as Mark
Grove says, all day long, peopleare being given a question

(23:11):
which is do they belong or dothey so badly that we choose to
self-abandon so that people willlike us.
And the reason why that'sreally interesting is because
Rick Rubin recently was talkingabout creative work and he said
most people are afraid to bepolarizing, but in order for

(23:33):
work to be really successful, ithas to be polarizing, meaning,
if you make a podcast andeverybody loves it, you probably
haven't gone far enough,because the things that stand
out, by definition, they willhave a point of view, which

(23:54):
means, in order for something toreally, really capture and
really really take off.
You have to be willing to goall in and really say something.
You can't be vanilla ice cream,right, and this is why we talk
about.
In a business, you have tochoose your niche.
You have to have super fans,right, and so you have to be
willing to go all in.

(24:15):
Rather than saying I'm going tomake something that every
single person likes, you have tosay I'm going to be so
committed to being authentic andI might trigger the people who
don't like it.
And actually that, to me, isthe thing that gets stuck the
most in people's mind, becausetypically people will be afraid
of fully unleashing.

(24:36):
And the people who go thedistance whether it's Jim Henson
or Lady Gaga these are notpeople who are playing it safe.
In fact, most people, when theycreate something, the first
time they create somethingwhether they're putting up a
logo or whether they're writinga song or they're starting a
business the first thing theyusually feel inclined to create

(24:56):
is a sum it's an average ofeverything else that's already
been created, because they'renot taking a risk yet.
But eventually they take a riskand then they become Picasso.
Right, but when Picasso firststarted, there were people who,
you know, really felt like thatwas like the antithesis of art,
but that's what makes it great.
So I think that eventually, ifwe want, really bet on going all

(25:21):
in and the things that make usquirky and weird will be the
things that actually become oursuperpowers.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, that sounds really scary to most of us, the
idea of like being your full,you know, authentic self being
weird.
Letting yourself especially ifyou're talking about in business
, where you're who you are is sowrapped up into everything that
you're doing, whether you'reshowing up at work every day and
your coworkers have certainexpectations of you and your

(25:49):
role has certain expectations,or whether you have a business.
So, kathy, how do we be moreourselves and feel like we're
safe to do that?

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Well, I mean, one of the reasons I just wrote this
book is because I want people tohave a mirror that's held up to
your face and you can actuallystart to see yourself in your
true identity, which is thepower that lives in you, right?
The reason we all love Wickedand Elphaba is because she
realizes there's no Wizard of Oz.
She's the wizard and we areeach the wizard.

(26:19):
And when you get to be 85, and,god willing, we'll all live
past that the only person youanswer to is yourself and your
creator.
And that's the most satisfyingplace to be.
Not to try to be getting theapproval from everybody around
you, because then it's neverenough right, because then
you're only whole based upon anexternal force making you whole.

(26:42):
And the truth is that, at theend of the day, most people are
not supposed to like everythingthat everyone does right.
There's diversity.
Some people love Indian food,some people love sushi, some
people like country music, somepeople like musicals.
What's wrong with that?
As my friend Susie Moore says,it's not a problem if people

(27:03):
don't like you.
It's a problem that you thinkit's a problem.
How many times do you go to aparty and you leave and you say
to your husband, these threepeople.
I loved everybody else, eh, butthat's fair.
Do you like everybody?
Do you like every song thatcomes out?
Do you like every book thatgets published?
No, why should you?
We're not meant to be the thingthat 8 billion people in the

(27:23):
world say oh, that's my favoritething.
We're meant to serve the peoplethat we are meant to serve.
And when you remember that, yourealize, oh, what a relief.
I don't have to convinceeverybody to be my buyer.
Not everybody is your buyer.
You don't have to convincevegans to come to your steak
restaurant.
They're not interested.
That's fine, let them be right.
You're making this for steakpeople.

(27:44):
Seth Godin was just saying tome that the reason why Cracker
Barrel is so successful isbecause they know their audience
and they're not trying to be aMichelin star restaurant.
They're not interested.
They're not trying to be aMichelin star restaurant.
They're trying to be CrackerBarrel.
They're trying to be the thingthat's perfect for when you come
off the freeway and you need aquick bite on your way on your
road trip.
That's a very different kind ofrestaurant.

(28:05):
So they're all in on that.
They're not offended thatthey're not getting a Michelin
star.
That's not their mission, right.
So it's like you deciding whoyou are in the market and
deciding that it's a completelyokay thing if some people are
not interested in you.
It's a relief, it's great.
It's great, it's wonderful.
Whenever you and I because Jenand I work together we go to

(28:26):
launch something, I don't feellike it's my job to convince
everybody that I'm their cup oftea.
I'm definitely not everyone'scup of tea and I often say that
I'll be like if this doesn'tfeel like it's for you.
There's a million things thatprobably are for you, because
I'm not everybody's person andit makes it easier for me truly
to sell to my people when I giveeverybody the permission that

(28:46):
they don't have to like it.
It's the best feeling in theworld to remember that your
assignment is not topeople-please your way into life
.
In fact, I'll go further andsay if you're living in your
moment of your life and you haveno haters, you're probably
people-pleasing, because if youare not people-pleasing, someone

(29:09):
should probably take issue withsomething you say or think or
believe and that's actually howyou know.
That's a good litmus test toknow that you're being authentic
, because that is the way itworks right, and we're such
people pleasers.
We're so codependent that wejust don't come out as ourselves
, and Bronnie Ware said that thegreatest regret of the dying is

(29:31):
people feeling like they didn'tlive life according to
themselves.
They lived the life thateverybody wanted them to live,
because it was safe.
They played it safe.
So I mean that is a good reasonto get up and start being
honest and let go of the needfor people to approve.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, so it was something that you said there
that just really lands.
Is that idea that, if you'reyou even just said it you said
trying to be perfect, and we'retalking about this idea of
hustling and hustle culture andstriving and trying, and we're
all out there trying to achieveso often so this idea, can you

(30:10):
give us a link, Kathy, Becauseyour whole book is about this
abundance and living in thisstate of abundance, which you
say is so simple, and yet we'reout there striving and trying so
much.
So can you connect how thosetwo things like what is the
missing link for us that we'rejust not seeing in this way that

(30:36):
we are out there trying toperfect things and do things?
How could we make it easier?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah, well, it's because we live in a culture
where, literally, whether we'reconscious of it or not,
non-nonstop everything istelling us the same message,
which is, if we achieve more,we'll feel like more inside.
And so we then decide thatabundance equals a pile of
things more followers, morebusiness, more money.

(31:04):
And then, by the way, it'salways more, which means, no
matter where you are.
For you to finally feel good,you just need more.
So you never arrive, becauseyou always need more, because
it's always outside of you andit's always about how big of a
ladder can you climb to a biggerpile of things when the truth
is that we didn't come to theworld.
A bigger pile of things whenthe truth is that we didn't come
to the world for a pile ofthings.

(31:25):
We're not interested.
It's not that interesting.
You're not really here becauseyou want a Range Rover and a
house and a pile of cash.
What you really want is theabundance that feels like inner
peace.
What you really want is theabundance that feels like
courage and expression.
What you really want is to notjust be successful, but to be
significant in the world.

(31:45):
Well, you can be significantevery day by walking through the
world and really being presentwith anyone you meet, whether
it's the bus driver or thebarista.
You can feel rich by feelinginner peace.
There are people who they're sopoor all they have is money,
right.
And at the same time, there'snothing wrong with having an

(32:05):
abundance of everything, anabundance of goodwill in your
heart, an abundance ofcreativity and an abundance of
money.
Because since we are all one,we are all literally one.
We live in one ecosystem.
The redwood tree that thrivesis giving life to the entire
forest, and so when you havemoney, you become a steward for

(32:26):
more abundance in the world.
You create businesses, you buythings in the marketplace.
Abundance just immediatelycreates abundance.
So that's also great.
But the real abundance you'reafter is the feeling of the
lightness of your own being.
There is no amount of cash thatcan take the place of feeling
at peace in your heart.
And so when you really knowthat, you know that that is easy
, because at any moment youcould feel gratitude, boom.

(32:49):
At any moment you could feeljust in awe of the beauty of the
universe.
And if you really startpracticing that, you realize
you're so rich.
I mean, my grandmother was sopoor and came from such
horrendous circumstances, andshe taught me how rich she was
growing up because she went tothe library and she taught

(33:10):
herself to read and she wouldtake herself on travels, so to
speak, by reading Jane Austen,and she used to take an eyeliner
pencil and draw a line up theback of her leg to make it look
like she had stockings, becauseshe couldn't even afford
pantyhose.
And she would dance throughlife and her only requirement
for who she wanted to marry wasI want to marry someone who's a

(33:31):
good dancer.
Because she wanted to be ableto be with someone who could
find the joy, no matter how muchmoney they had or didn't have.
And, of course, they wound upbecoming successful because my
grandfather was a dancer andthen because he knew how to find
flow state, he found flow statein the business world also and
he created the cardboard thatgoes into men's dress, shirt,
collars, and he did actuallycreate a huge business from that

(33:54):
.
But from nothing, like fromactual nothing, they turned that
into something.
But it's coming from energy,right, I'm sure it was the
energy he had when he would walkin and do quote, unquote, you
know, sales calls that actuallysold the business, and so the
most abundant thing we have isour energy.
When somebody walks into a room, the most impressive thing is

(34:16):
not what car they drove, it'swhat their energy is like.
Drove, it's what their energyis like.
And when we plug into thesource of our energy and we feel
tapped in and turned on, wefeel abundant and we make
everybody around us feelabundant, and then we don't need
material things to feelabundant.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
I think we can all picture somebody in our lives
who is that person, who justfeels energetically abundant,
and so what you're saying makesso much sense.
But can you justify?
It's almost Christmas and weall probably have some things on
our Christmas list, some verypractical, physical things.
Maybe it is a Range Rover,maybe it's something, maybe it's

(34:51):
a toaster.
Whatever that thing isabundance that we want?
While also understanding thisenergetically, how do we
actually manifest these thingsinto our reality in an easeful
way?
That is not this striving,trying, trying, hustle thing

(35:11):
that we've all grown to know.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, I mean it's interesting because the best way
to have what we want is tocreate from a place of wholeness
.
Right, if you go on a date andyou want the guy to really
really, really like you and youreally need to be liked you're
going to ruin the date.
But if you go on the date andyou feel good in your own skin
and you're enjoying your life,the person is way more likely to

(35:36):
just be so into you becauseyou're just really creating that
wholeness and so wholenesscreates wholeness.
And so when we remember thatthere's no urgency for any
things that we need, becausewe're already really grateful
and we're already just enjoyingthe moment we're in, because
we're feeling alive and excitedand expressed, and feeling just

(35:58):
excited about whatever projectwe're doing, in and of itself,
we are enjoying the journey.
We're much more likely tomanifest material things because
energy creates matter.
And so when we're working on apodcast like I started my
podcast eight years ago in mylinen closet and had no sense of
how, I think it's beendownloaded 45 million times now.

(36:20):
I didn't have an Instagramaccount at the time.
I didn't have email, I didn'tknow what I was million times
now I didn't have an Instagramaccount.
At the time, I didn't haveemail.
I didn't know what I was goingto do.
I didn't care.
To me it was like, could I beall in on the doing of it?
Could it feel so fun just to goto sleep at night and tell
myself I did this thing, I justcreated this thing that I'm just
so proud of having sharedsomething and made something I
enjoyed making, and, on theother side of that, it sort of

(36:43):
opened the door to a whole lot,because, as Wayne Dyer says, we
don't get what we want.
We get what we are, and so Ithink it's really exciting to
just be so lit up and so inoverflow all the time.
When you're feeling abundantright now, it's amazing how
you'll get better ideas, anddon't forget that every billion

(37:05):
dollars ever made came from acreative idea right, and so
being inspired.
In order to get the creativedownload, we need to be in a
state of being where we'refeeling like we're available for
the download, and so I thinkit's fun to play and to remember
that, and I also think one ofthe reasons that we don't have a

(37:28):
lot of material things isbecause we can't have more of
something we have a badrelationship with, and I think
part of the problem of whypeople don't receive more money
is they have a really toxicrelationship with money.
They actually deep down feellike it's not safe to have it.
They feel like the more moneythey have, the more greedy they
are.
The more money they have, theworse of a person they are.
That's not even true, right?

(37:50):
The Bible verse that people getwrong is they say money is the
root of all evil.
It's actually not the way itsays.
The verse says the love ofmoney, right.
So the idea is that we'vepainted money and material
things as being, like you know,just the devil's work.
It's not true.
Every hospital in the world hassomebody's name on it, right?
The truth is that you could bea good person and have no money.

(38:13):
You could be a good person andhave money.
You could be either one, right,and so you could be a terrible
person who has money and youcould be a terrible person who
has no money.
It's not mutually exclusive.
The Talmud says that money islike rain falling in a garden
it's an activator, and if therain falls on weeds, weeds grow,
and if the rain falls on roses,roses grow.
So whatever you are, you willbecome blessing of money.

(38:35):
You'll do a lot of good withthat money.
If you're a person who's not inintegrity and you have a
blessing of money, you'll justbe more of a bad person with
money.
So that has to be dismantledbecause if deep down, you think
that having a lot of things willmake you judged or you will

(38:56):
become a person who doesn't havegood values anymore, then you
will literally hold yourselfback from being successful
because you are afraid that thatmoney will take away your
integrity and that's not true.
So that's another importantpoint to make about manifesting
material wealth.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Oh my gosh, it's so good and such a shift in the way
that we think about money.
I mean for myself that beliefthat it has to be hard to make
money and that money is the rootof all evil.
That's ingrained in so many ofus from the time that we're very
little and we hold it in ourbodies.
I just want to very quicklyreset the room and then we can
continue on that thought.

(39:33):
We're here right now with KathyHeller bestselling author.
Her book Abundant Ever Afterjust came out this week, and
we're speaking about this ideaof really what hustle culture is
doing wrong.
What us buying into this ideathat working hard is the way and
shifting ourselves more towardthis simple, easeful way of

(39:58):
receiving abundance, which iswhat you teach so clearly in
your book.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
Somebody just sent me a question anonymously and she
said can you give advice towomen when you're in a
male-dominated sphere and itfeels scary to fully step up?
Because she said, sometimesthen your label does aggressive
right.
Good question, and it is agreat question.
And the other day I posted onInstagram that I wrote my new

(40:26):
book for my grandmother, for mydaughters, for my mother and for
myself and honestly, it reallyis such an important question
because we have to zoom out andrealize that what's happening
right now, literally like mebeing in the world right now at

(40:47):
45 years old, this what'savailable to me and who I'm
becoming right now.
This is a first graduated highschool before women's lib.
So when my mom graduated highschool, she was told by her
college counselor that she hadtwo choices she could be a
teacher or a secretary.

(41:08):
That's it.
That was her choice, right, andshe actually wanted to be.
She wanted to be a Broadwayactress.
She was in all the plays inhigh school and the girl who
played her understudy in highschool was going to audition for
a Broadway show right afterthey graduated.
And the girl who played herunderstudy in high school was
going to audition for a Broadwayshow right after they graduated
and my mom said oh well, if Iwant to be a mother, I can't

(41:30):
have a career.
Like she was told it's one orthe other.
And so this woman auditioned.
The show was called Little Shopof Horrors.
This woman got the lead andthen they made the movie version
and she was the lead in themovie Ellen Green.
My mom grew up with her and mymom told me that story her whole
life, like she couldn't believethat this girl did that.

(41:50):
Because what she was told isyou either can be a mother and
have a life, a family life, oryou can have a career.
You can't do both.
And this other girl who didthis and got the part she didn't
get to become a mother.
And this other girl who didthis and got the part she didn't

(42:15):
get to become a mother.
So my mom said to me you arethe first generation, right,
because my grandmother didn'teven know how to drive a car or
write a check, right?
That wasn't a thing for my.
Do it all perfectly right, likeif you're gonna be a mom, be
the most conscious, mindful momand have organic food, oh, and
if you're gonna have a career,then do that all the way also
and balance them all.
Just figure out how to balance.
It's like we don't have a modelfor this right.
So it's actually quite amazingthat we're even in this time as

(42:37):
women, and that's why I say Iwrote this book for my mother,
my grandmother and my daughtersBecause, funny enough, I don't
have three boys.
I have three girls.
Those are my kids and I wantedto show them that I believe it's
possible that they can dosomething they love, that
they're passionate about as acareer, and also be a good
mother, and so that was myintention to set out and do that

(43:00):
.
And all of this is an importantconversation because realize
like we are the generation thatis new and doing all of this
really right, and so it'sfascinating.
Priyanka Chopra said to me Iwant to just give her the credit
because she said this.
She said that as she was kindof coming up in her career, it

(43:22):
was interesting to her becausewomen were the ones that would
give her sort of like shade andit was like men that were giving
her praise.
And she said it was because shefeels that when women sometimes
see a woman rising, it's veryconfronting and they feel
threatened because they feellike they've been taught for so
long that there's not enoughroom for them.

(43:44):
So when they see a woman doingthat, they're like who is she to
do that?
I don't give myself the powerto do that.
And Priyanka said maybe weshould turn it around and say,
if you see Reese Witherspoonsell her company for a billion
dollars which she did, hellosunshine.
You should shine her crown andsay thank you for now paving a
way and opening doors for me.
And I think that that's thebottom line is that I actually

(44:07):
think we're in a season where wecan be bold, and I think our
boldness, I think what willhappen is, while some people
might be triggered by seeing awoman who's really in her power,
like a disco ball, I thinkthat's also a gift, because when
you trigger somebody, you'realso helping activate in them

(44:31):
what needs to expand in them sothat they're not triggered but
rather they're inspired.
And what I've said to peoplewhen they listen to my podcast
is I don't want you to think ofit as like look at me, but more
come with me.
You know, when I startedpodcasting eight years ago, 12%
of podcasters were women, andthat is completely ridiculous

(44:53):
because we make up half theworld.
We're still not 50%.
Podcasts are still not 50%hosted by women, but we're
getting better.
I think it's like 26% now arestill not 50% hosted by women,
but we're getting better.
I think it's like 26% now.
So we're on our way and I thinkwe all need to remember that we
will rise and that someone saidthis the other day.
She came to one of my booksignings and she said I just

(45:15):
want you to know that as you'recrossing this ocean, so to speak
, there is a line of women thatare watching you cross and is
giving them the permission theyneed to cross to.
So keep going.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
Wow, kathy, I'm curious for you because that
question that that woman askedyou is so personal.
You've been on this journeyyourself.
You continue to put yourselfout there.
You started this podcast.
You've really moved throughthis from an entrepreneurial

(45:50):
space of you going first.
What do you feel like is one ofthe hardest things that you
yourself have had tocontinuously come up against,
because we all have those things.
What has been that thing foryou?

Speaker 2 (46:04):
I mean, it's been a lot of those things.
I remember when I first made myfirst hundred grand.
So you guys, as a businesswomanjust so you know I've had a few
businesses.
My first business I was asongwriter and I wound up taking
my music.
I had a record deal.
I got dropped from Interscope.
I had another record deal atAtlantic.
I got dropped.
And then I worked in commercialreal estate for three years

(46:26):
because I met a guy in line atthe Cheesecake Factory.
He said you have great energy,you can come work for me.
He sold $100 million shoppingcenters.
I did that for three years andthen one day I looked at myself
in the elevator door mirrors andI said what the hell am I doing
selling commercial real estate?
I'm a songwriter.
I had a record deal.
I felt like a guitar that wasbeing used to hold a potted

(46:47):
plant.
It was like this isn't my job,and so I quit that job.
And then I asked a questionthat I had never asked, which
was is there any other way Icould be successful as a
songwriter besides having arecord deal?
And I wound up licensing mymusic to TV shows and ads and
film.
And I did that by becoming myown agent and making cold calls
to Ogilvy and Deutsch and LeoBurnett and literally flying to

(47:10):
Chicago and flying toMinneapolis and writing songs
for Target and writing songs forGrey's Anatomy, and that was
literally a business.
And then I started a licensingagency where I licensed other
songwriter songs.
And then one day I was on apodcast and I was teaching
songwriters the business ofsongwriting and somebody said
start an online course.
So I started an online coursecalled Six Figure Songwriting.

(47:31):
Then the course made a fewmillion bucks teaching
songwriters the business ofsongwriting.
Then from that, one of mystudents said why don't you
start a podcast?
I started a podcast which wasat the time called Don't Keep
your Day Job.
It was all about how you canget paid to do creative work.
And then from that I startedteaching people, five years
later, how to get into flowstate so that you can be your

(47:51):
most powerful, spiritual,creative self.
And then we renamed the podcastAbundant Ever After.
And so I've had a bunch ofbusinesses, including now we
host retreats and do onlinecourses and I write books and
podcasts, and so all of thesebusinesses have been successful
and I think if you look atsomething that somebody does

(48:12):
once, you might be able to chalkit up to luck, but if somebody
is successful over and over andover again in different things,
then there must be some strategy.
And so I've been sitting herenow pulling apart what has been
the method to the madness and toanswer your question, jen, I
just wanted to give them someoverview of my business world.
But, to answer your question,every time I hit a new milestone

(48:34):
, it was scary, a financialmilestone as well as sort of
career milestone Meaning.
When I first made 100 grand, Iwas like whoa, I'm a songwriter
that's making a hundred grandfrom licensing music.
That's crazy.
And then I made 300 grandlicensing music and I was like,
are other songwriters not goingto like me?
Like, are people going to thinkI'm like a sellout Cause I

(48:56):
wrote a song for McDonald's, youknow?
And then it was like no,actually I wound up inspiring
other songwriters that theycould have these advertisements
become the investor for theweird alternative album they
wanted to make for themselves.
They could like get paid to doone thing that would actually,
you know, pay their mortgage,and then they could do 10 things
that were just creativelyinspiring.

(49:18):
And then, when I started apodcast, I remember thinking who
the hell am I to start apodcast Like there's a million
other people that are betterthan me.
So there's no end to themoments that I've had to call
upon courage.
My career was growing, I mademy first million and then I kind
of got to a sort bit moresuccessful that I will outgrow
our relationship or you willfeel emasculated or we will

(50:06):
somehow break up and I'm afraidof being more successful because
I'm afraid of burning down mywhole life.
And I think that that's sointeresting that that came up
for me, but it did.
And then my husband had areally good response and he said
you're afraid to outgrow me.
He said you've already outgrownme.
And he said and what I mean is?

(50:27):
He said you have moreconfidence and courage than I
have.
And he said but please keepgoing, because I'm going to
catch up.
And I thought that was justsuch an honest answer.
And I say all that because Ithink that the thing that we're
all really afraid of, asMarianne Williamson says, is our
power, and all of this on thejourney is actually it's asking

(50:50):
us to choose to be powerful,which it's much easier to stay
shrinking in order to not be inour power, because we worry that
we will lose people in our life.
And I'll just say this one lastthing my friend, alex Benayan,
wrote a book called the ThirdDoor and in the book he
interviewed Lady Gaga, warrenBuffett, maya Angelou, steven

(51:11):
Spielberg.
Anyway, it's an amazing book.
And he said that life is like anightclub.
And he said there's always athird door, meaning to say most
people wait in line for thefirst door and there's always a
line around the block of anightclub and people wait and
they wait and they wait.
And that's how most people livetheir life.
They're just waiting to bechosen.
And he said but then there'salways a second door and that's

(51:32):
like the VIP line for people whohave a famous father, and most
people don't get born on the VIPline, on the VIP line.
And then he says but the reallysuccessful people take door
number three, the third door,which is why he called his book
the Third Door, because he saidthose people will just find
another way in.
And my favorite part of hisbook is that he said that the
hardest part of going throughthe third door it's not finding

(51:56):
the third door, it's leaving theline for the first door,
because when you go to leave theline.
You feel like you're going toleave behind everybody you love
who's still waiting rightBecause they're afraid.
It's like Moana going past thereef, and the stakes are really

(52:17):
high, and so I think that that'swhat happens.
But then, on the other side ofhaving the courage to go beyond
the reef, a lot of people followyou and say thank you for going
beyond the reef.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
If somebody's in that space of kind of realizing, you
know, maybe it is time toreally follow my heart, to
follow my intuition, to listento myself and whatever that is.
Maybe it's leaving the job,maybe it's switching to
something else, maybe it'ssimply speaking up in a meeting.
What advice would you give tothem?

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Well, my friend Mark Groves, who I mentioned earlier,
he said something so powerfulto me, which is he actually said
it on stage to all of us at thesummit that I hosted two weeks
ago, and he said liberation is atwo-way street.
So when you liberate yourself,who does everybody else get to
choose to be Because you steppedinto your truth, to be because

(53:26):
you stepped into your truth?
So I think the reason we don'ttell the truth is because we
feel people can't handle it.
But I think that's patronizing,like what if you just decide
that people can't handle it?
And then who does everybody getto be?
Because everyone, all of asudden steps into their
authenticity.
So that's what I would keep inmind you've interviewed so many
people.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
You've interviewed Matthew McConaughey, for
goodness sakes you guys.
She has interviewed DeepakChopra.
You mentioned MarianneWilliamson earlier.
She's come on your podcast.
So many great thinkers and alsoso many people who've achieved
so much and you yourself, you'veachieved a lot.
In your book you emphasizereally the fulfillment over

(54:08):
achievement.
How can somebody shift theirmindset to prioritize that sense
of inner peace and authenticitythat you're talking about,
while still pursuing those bigdreams that we have, pursuing
what is next for us.

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a yes, and I mean I talked
about earlier how I spent threeyears in Jerusalem and I wrote
about in my book how, you know,I also lived for a year in Spain
during college and I love thatin Spain they take these like
siestas in the middle of the day, like the culture is just like
so willing to live quality life,where they take like three-hour

(54:43):
naps in the middle of a Tuesday, and then in Jerusalem, like
they take an entire day off.
It's like Friday night toSaturday night.
Just all the kids are ridingbikes, everybody's slowed down
like the.
You know, the shops are closed,everybody's home with their
family, people are at the parkplaying soccer.
It's like a real Sabbath, youknow.
And I think that it's a yes,and I think that you can have
six days a week where you'relike, want to build something,

(55:07):
but then you need that balanceright.
And so I think that there areother cultures that do this just
so much better, where they havea little bit more balance, and
I think putting a little balancein your life reminds you of the
both.
And it's great to want tocreate things, it's great to
want to turn thoughts to things.
It's great to want to buildthings because it's fun.
When we were kids, we loved tobuild things build forts, you

(55:27):
know and come up with things inthe backyard.
That's all still fun.
But recently I was justmentioning earlier today that I
was talking to Sofia Amoroso,who created Girlboss, and when I
was on Zoom with her, she wasin Hawaii in this like little
500 square foot little studioapartment and she said you know,
right now I'm sitting in thislike little 500 square foot

(55:48):
little studio apartment.
And she said you know, rightnow I'm sitting in this like 500
square foot studio apartmentand I'm so happy because I built
Girl Boss and I went from 100grand to 200 to 500, to a
million, to 100 million untilshe said I got so depleted and
the whole thing went bust and Irealized that I abandoned myself

(56:09):
and I hated my life.
And she's like and now I'm likeswimming in the ocean every day
, have a tiny little studioapartment and I'm drinking green
juice and I'm so happy.
And so she said whatever I'mgoing to build next, I'm going
to remember to make sure itfeels right size for me, and I
think that that's what I alwayskeep in mind.

(56:29):
It's like.
The name of the game is not moreand bigger, it's how do you
feel Like?
What quality of life do youhave on a daily basis?
That's the name of the game.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
So if we are at that place say some of us are at a
place of realizing, oh my gosh,I just want to burn it all down.
I am to that point of maybesomebody's even at burnout or
just realizing I'm hustling waytoo hard, I'm not in alignment,
what is one practice or tool orsuggestion that you could give

(57:05):
them that could start them onthis journey of coming back home
to what you call that well ofabundance with actually, I don't
even know if those are yourwords, Kathy, but what would you
call that?

Speaker 2 (57:16):
That place that they're coming to how?

Speaker 1 (57:18):
can we do it?
How do we do it?

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Yeah, well, I'll tell you a story that, jen, you
always tell me you love, which Ithink illustrates this.
But I think that the bottomline is like you're either and
you know this because you teachand you facilitate breathwork,
somatic work At any moment inthe day you're either feeling
that your nervous system isregulated or it's dysregulated,
right.
So that's number one.

(57:42):
It's like check in with yourbody.
Have you taken a walk today?
Have you been outside today?
Have you slowed down?
Are you breathing right?
Number one check in with yourbody.
Don't forsake your body, okay.
And number two remember that,as hard as we think it's
supposed to be, the best thingsin our life come through
synchronicity.
The best things in our life.

(58:03):
We did not plan how we wouldmeet our best friend.
We did not plan all the littlethings that had to happen for
the river of life to lead to themost magical things that have
happened.
And really, really, really,that is how the best things
happen.
So our job is to be feelingwell-being, and when we feel
well-being, we will be led toamazing things.

(58:26):
And so to share that story thatI mentioned, that you love, jen
, which I think illustrates thisreally well.
I went to Podcast Movement whenI had first started a podcast
and I was standing in this roomand everybody was handing out
business cards and it was anetworking event, and I noticed
that my body started feelingreally dysregulated because I

(58:49):
didn't bring business cards.
I didn't like the energy ofquote, unquote networking energy
and so I started to feel alittle bit stressed and I turned
to my friend and I said, oh, Ididn't bring business cards, but
if I had brought business cards, what do you think is the thing
everybody's after right now?
And she said well, people wantto meet other people so they can

(59:11):
do podcast swaps number one andnumber two.
The dream, she said, is thateverybody is hoping to meet the
Apple podcast team, because ifApple podcast features you, that
is a really big exposure toolfor your podcast.
And I noticed that I feltreally stressed out, just like
being in an environment whereeveryone was trying to get

(59:34):
something from everyone else.
So I said when does the eventstart?
And she said it starts in aboutan hour, like the panel
discussions.
So I said you know what, I'mgoing to leave and I'll come
back in an hour.
And I left and we were at thehotel.
I walked a couple blocks toanother hotel and I walked into
the lobby and there was somebodyplaying piano in the lobby.

(59:55):
I sat down in this atrium, Iordered a nice tea and then I
started to feel my body was atpeace again.
I just felt I was enjoying anice tea on a nice day.
I felt like myself again and,sure enough, I start talking to
this guy who's sitting next tome and we realized that we both
have the same badge from theconference and we start talking

(01:00:17):
and next thing I know he tellsme that he was the head of Apple
Podcasts and he hands me hisbusiness card and he said I'd
love to take you to lunch.
And I said, oh my gosh.
And I look at his business card.
And he said I'd love to takeyou to lunch.
And I said, oh my gosh.
And I look at his business cardand I see the address and I
said you know, my daughter goesto school on that street, right

(01:00:37):
in front of that building, andI've always wondered what
building that was, because ithas valet parking but it has no
sign on the building.
It's just a really fancybuilding.
I said so I'm going to be thereevery day this week to drop her
off.
He said well then, come havebreakfast with me tomorrow.
And then I went and then I hadthis really amazing relationship
with Apple that has continuedto grow and I'm still very close

(01:01:00):
with him to this day.
And I tell that story becausecontained in that story is the
answer to everything I'm saying.
When you decide to put yourwell-being first and you trust
that what's meant for you willcome, it will always come,
because you are the recipient offeeling good in the moment,

(01:01:23):
which is what you wanted anyway.
Why do you want to haveexposure?
Why do you want the thing?
Why do you want?
Well, you want to feel good.
Why don't you just feel goodright now?
So when you make the feelinggood, the thing that you
practice doing, you'll always beled to the most amazing
synchronicities.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
I love this story for all of the reasons.
It just really hits home withme, though, personally, because
how many times do we abandon ourown wellbeing and how many
times have we done it throughoutour lives?
I think of just from the verysimple when you very start going
to school and that it's likeyou need to go to the bathroom

(01:02:01):
and it's like no, or you're souncomfortable sitting in these
desks and it's just like this ishow it has to be, it's how it
has to be, it's how it has to be, and we just spend our whole
lives just abandoning thesignals that our own bodies and
our minds are telling us and wejust override and override, and
then it impacts everything inour lives over time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
I mean it really does .
And it's such a bummer because,like I said, anything that you
think you want to achieve anyway, you want to achieve it because
of how you think it'll make youfeel.
So why would you wait forsomething to happen to make you
feel that good?
Why don't you just startfeeling that good now and doing
the things that feel that good,which might be taking the
pressure off and really justfeeling good, putting your feet
in the grass?
And it's just amazing.

(01:02:53):
Ryan Holiday was saying to methat he went on this vacation
and he really didn't want totake the vacation.
And when he finally got there,three days in, he was playing in
the sand with his kid and allof a sudden, he had the most
amazing idea for a book.
Because everything works betterwhen you unplug it for a little
bit.
It's like the hustling actuallyrids you of your capacity to

(01:03:16):
turn on your real power, whichis flow state, which is genuine
overflow.
And when you're in a room andyou're just overflowing with
wholeness, just everything goodwill come to you and you're just
overflowing with wholeness,just everything good will come
to you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
It's so true.
How do we so?
You gave us a couple of tips onjust get outside, start
listening to your body a littlebit.
What would you say is the nextstep, as we kind of bring this
conversation to a close, how canwe take it even one step deeper
?
Is it starting a meditationpractice?
Is it well, reading your bookcould be a really great next

(01:03:52):
step for everybody on this call.
But what do you think would bethe very next thing that people
could do?

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Yes, definitely go read the book.
I honestly think that you willlove, love, love it, and I would
love you to read the book andthen DM me on Instagram or
wherever and say what youlearned from chapter one.
That would be amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
Where can people find ?

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
it.
You can find it anywhere Amazon, barnes, noble Target and then
if you go to kathyhellercom book, we have a bonus which is a
two-hour free class onmanifestation and meditation,
which you might love.
And you get that when you orderthe book and then just go to
kathyhellercom slash book andthen you can collect your bonus.
I say to people, the same waythat you select what you want to

(01:04:35):
wear every day, I want you totake a second and select how you
want to feel today and I wantyou to become just programmed,
the same loop.
It'll think what it thoughtyesterday, which will make you
feel what you felt yesterday,which will make you feel what
you felt yesterday, which willmake you do what you did
yesterday.
But if you really want to havea real imprint and you really

(01:04:57):
want to create, you have to tapin and turn into the part of you
that's conscious, notunconscious.
And so what if you selected howwould you want to feel today?
What does ease feel like?
What does joy feel today?
What does ease feel like?
What does joy feel like?
What does it feel like to play,and maybe play a game with the
universe and say, god, I'm goingto do my part, I'm going to be

(01:05:17):
present today and I'm going tonotice awe and beauty and
gratitude and I want you to showup and show me the
synchronicity.
I promise it'll show up in yourday.
I mean, I told you this story,jen.
It was just uncanny.
I went to dinner in July.
My dad died July 3rd.
I was like we went throughhospice, we went through the
funeral, we went through sittingShiva, and then a couple of

(01:05:38):
weeks later, I go to dinner withmy kids and there's this woman
sitting next to me and I couldtell she was on a first date.
And so I stood up and I saidcan I buy you dessert?
And she and the guy she waswith were like oh my God, that's
so cute.
I'm like are you guys on afirst date?
She said yeah, so I buy herdessert.
I've never done that before.
Well, I buy them dessert.
She gets my number, she textsme later and she's like thank

(01:06:00):
you for the dessert.
And I said you know I'm a widow.
And she said this is my firstdate in five years.
And she said you buying usdessert made me feel like my
husband, my late husband wasgiving me his blessing.
And she said you don'tunderstand how big that was,
because I've been afraid to goout on a date for five years.

(01:06:21):
And I said, oh well, that is sobeautiful.
And I said, and my dad diedJuly 3rd and this is the first
time I've been out since hospiceand funeral and all that.
And she said, oh well, myhusband died five years ago, on
July 3rd.
And I share that, because Ithink all day long we're so busy
in lack, worrying about whenour big payday is going to

(01:06:45):
happen or our big achievement,that we miss the mystical all
the time.
And when we just turn on ourcapacity to be where we are and
be present and be loving, themost amazing mystical
experiences happen that feel somuch better than the
quote-unquote things we'retrying to achieve.
So I would remember thatwherever you are is always the

(01:07:06):
right place at the right time,and practice turning on your
capacity to be this loving forceand this person that's already
in a state of gratitude and ease, and just notice the mystical
experience that will happen.

Speaker 1 (01:07:21):
I hope you enjoyed getting to meet Kathy and
enjoyed us diving into thatconversation Again.
That was recorded on FishbowlLive, which is an app and a
platform for business people,people who are in the corporate
world and people.
I think even there's someentrepreneurial stuff on there.
There's definitely some healingconversations.
There's all kinds ofconversations happening on there
that you might check out and,if you have not yet, be sure

(01:07:44):
that you check out Kathy's book.
It is called Abundant EverAfter and you can go to
kathyhellercom slash book.
If you buy the book, enter yourorder number there, because
then we'll send you some of herreally cool bonuses that she's
got available and you'lldefinitely want to dive into
those alongside the book.
Thank you to Kathy, thank you toFishbowl Live and thank you to

(01:08:06):
you for showing up for yourself,for Thank you to Fishbowl Live
and thank you to you for showingup for yourself, for listening
to this episode, for steppinginto this year refreshed,
renewed, stressed out.
Whatever it is that you werefeeling right now, it's all good
, it's all wonderful, it's alldelightful and it's all
happening exactly for you, evenif there's a little bit of
stress that you're feeling rightnow.
Whatever it is that you'refeeling in your body is good and

(01:08:28):
right, and just remember that,because sometimes we step into
the year feeling like we shouldfeel a certain kind of way, and
whatever it is that you arefeeling in your body right now
is exactly as it's intended tobe, and when we can realize that
we can step in in a whole newway, knowing that everything is

(01:08:49):
working for us, everything issupporting us.
So remember that and you justkeep shining your magical
unicorn light out there for allto see.
I hope to see you at my word ofthe year party.
Go to genliscom slash 20252025to register and I will hopefully
see you there.
I'll see you next time.
Bye.

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