EP.146 - Embracing Authentic Leadership and Personal Growth in Youth Hockey with Topher Scott - Up My Hockey with Jason Podollan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think, first and foremost, you lead with your
actions first and not your words, you know.
So you're putting yourself in amuch better situation to have a
leadership role on the team ifyou're one of the hardest
working players out there.
You know, a lot of times inyouth hockey I feel like coaches
just give the C or the A to thebest player, which isn't
necessarily reinforcing the bestthings, even if that player is,

(00:22):
you know, really skilled andtalented, but maybe they're only
about themselves or you know,whatever, um, I, I feel like
just the work ethic side ofthings is is really important.
And then, like honestly does,does this person just care about
the thing on the front of theJersey more than the thing on
the back?
That's that for me, iseverything.

(00:43):
You to be playing for somethingbigger than yourself and and um
, understanding that, um and andleading through actions of this
is what's best for the team.
Um, that goes a long way.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
That was tofer scott, former ncaa division one
captain at cornell with the bigred, and you are listening to
the Up my Hockey podcast withJason Padolan.
Welcome to Up my Hockey withJason Padolan, where we

(01:20):
deconstruct the NHL journey,discuss what it takes to make it
and have a few laughs along theway.
I'm your host, jason Padolan, a31st overall draft pick who
played 41 NHL games but thoughthe was destined for 1,000.
Learn from my story and thoseof my guests.
This is a hockey podcast aboutreaching your potential.
Hello and welcome back, orwelcome to the Up my Hockey

(01:45):
podcast with Jason Padolan.
I am your host, jason Padolan,and today we are in for a treat
because we have Topher Scott onthe program.
For those of you who are podcastenthusiasts across the hockey
landscape, you may already befamiliar with Topher because he
is the co-host of one of themost popular podcasts on hockey

(02:08):
in North America and that's theHockey Think Tank podcast, where
he's a co-host with JeffLovecchio.
Some of you may remember myconversation with Jeff Lovecchio
as a guest here on the pod afew months back, where we talked
about personal training and abunch of things which Jeff
specializes in.
And, yeah, jeff and I got alonggreat and it turned out that

(02:28):
they decided to have me on theirpodcast as a guest and that was
when I was able to meet withTopher.
Topher's a fantastic dude.
We really got along great onthe podcast.
He said I think you're my newbest friend because we seem to
align on so many concepts andphilosophies.
And one of the things thatreally intrigued me about him,

(02:50):
and one of the reasons why Iwanted to get Topher on my pod,
was his size, which sounds sosimple, but he's five foot six
and he was the captain of a USHLteam and he was the captain of
Cornell and he did go on to playpro.
And just lately in my ecosystemhere, I've been having a lot of

(03:11):
conversations with parents andwith players who are, let's call
them, undersized or latedevelopers, and so I said to
Topher I'm like boy, I'm sureyou are a wealth of knowledge
and would really benefit myaudience if we could come on and
we could have a discussionabout that and how maybe we can

(03:32):
reframe the size issue and justhave a discussion along that.
So this conversation goes wellbeyond being an undersized
hockey player, but it was one ofthe reasons why I wanted to
have Topher on player Uh, but itwas one of the reasons why I
wanted to have a Topher on.
Uh experienced a lot of successat a at a very high level, uh,
despite uh a vertically uhchallenged uh scenario at five

(03:53):
foot six.
So this is a great interview,uh, really tons of fun for me.
Topher tells a great story.
A lot of the things that hetalks about are story-based.
I'd give him a compliment onthat towards the end of the uh
the discussion, just becausehe's he's engaging and uh and
he's able to tie in pastexperiences and stories that
he's had with with relevantinformation to today's player.
So, uh, yeah, I had, I had aton of fun with him.

(04:16):
He stands for a lot of thingsthat I stand for.
You mean, he's about the longgame, he's about just enjoying
the process.
He's about keeping hockeysimple, you know, keeping hockey
local, keeping hockeycommunity-based.
So there's a lot of things thathe's out there trying to do,

(04:36):
and him, with the Hockey ThinkTank podcast, is trying to help
and trying to help associationsprovide culture, the right
culture to their players, theright development model,
focusing on the right things,which seems to have gone astray
in some areas.
So I love this conversation.
He's one of those guys that Icould have a conversation with
every day.
It seems like it was easy, itwas fun and, like I said, very

(05:01):
story-driven with Topher.
So I will stop talking aboutTopher.
Just let you know that he didplay, as I said, hockey at very
high level Chicago Steel, ushl,the best junior league in the US
.
He went on to Cornell with theBig Red Cornell University, ncaa
, where I believe they won achampionship there as well and

(05:24):
wore the C in both places, wenton to play some pro in the ECHL
and the CHL.
So definitely has his ownhockey background in acumen and
a good resume to back all thestuff that he's done since he
retired as a player, which isgot into coaching at Cornell and
other places and now, like Isaid, he's helping players and
associations develop athletesand have the right development

(05:48):
model to support theirwell-being.
So he appreciates the holisticside of development, as do I.
So let's get Topher here andour discussion straight at you.
So, without further ado, topherScott with the Hockey Think
Tank podcast.
Thanks for joining.
Okay, here we are, live fromChicago.

(06:09):
We have Topher Scott on theshow.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Welcome to the program, topher happy to be here
, jason, let's, let's, let herrip.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Here we go thank, uh, thanks for being here.
It was, uh.
It was fun.
For those of you, uh, who areobviously my guests and
listeners, I was a, I was aguest on the hockey think tank
where, where toph is co-host, uh, there and uh, anyways, it was
an awesome conversation.
I found out a little bit moreabout toph that I didn't know
and and I was like you know what?
I think, if you're willing, itwould be amazing to come on from

(06:39):
from my audience.
I think we'd probably have alot, lot to offer.
So that's where therelationship started and you
were kind enough to join.
So, once again, I appreciateyou taking taking my invite.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, pumped to be on and yeah, that was.
That was an awesomeconversation that we had on ours
.
It's always great to just riffwith hockey guys and talk about
hockey stories and then, youknow, give some advice that that
of things that we've beenthrough, you know that can help
people coming up and stuff, andso you have such a great story
and and uh, it was really coolto get you on there, um to to

(07:10):
let you tell it and um, I thinkwe learned a lot from it.
It was great, oh.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
I appreciate it.
Yeah, you had some goodfeedback from it.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yeah, ton Ton of great feedback for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, and I did not mean to make this an
advertisement about me, but forthose of you who are listening,
like obviously that we're nottalking about me very much, if
you are interested in my story,like the hockey think tank is an
awesome podcast, first of all,if you're not familiar with it,
so go check, go check them outand you can check out my
interview on there.
That was probably releasedabout a month ago.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
I want to say sure.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
Anyways, yeah, was a lot of fun.
Uh, and yes, like I, so I.
I found out during, uh, thatyou were a hell of a player in
your own right and uh, and hadsome uniqueness about you, uh,
in the idea of your verticallychallengedness, let's put it
that way.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Uh, so, topher, how tall are you for real, not on
the hockey card uh, so on thehockey card I'm five foot six
off the hockey card, five footfour, and actually there's a
funny story that goes with that.
So you know, when I was 17, myfirst draft year, um, you know
how central scouting comes inand they do the heights and the
weights and everything right.
So you know they have the, theruler that's taped on the wall,

(08:20):
and you go up and you stand withyour heels against the wall and
it started at five six, like itdidn't start at five four.
So I remember as a 17 year oldgoing up to the wall and like
knowing I'm not even going tohit it, right, and so I put my
butt, my heels, against my butt,against the wall, and the guy
just kind of looks at me and hekind of smiles and laughs.
He goes, hey, kid, we'll giveyou five six.

(08:41):
And I was like all right, sweet.
So in the program I've beenfive six ever since.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, I know the program is wild, Okay, so that's
, that's all.
That's a wild story.
I love that.
I remember you sharing that onthe on the think tank.
So five, four and to back yourstraps.
So central scouting came to toour program there in Spokane,
and what I was worried about atthe time I was 6'2" but I
thought that I was too skinny,or you know, I was like I got to

(09:09):
be heavier.
I got to be heavier, so we hadour you know whatever our hockey
underwear on, and so I grabbeda 10-pound plate and tried to
shove it in my shorts with mychalk on.
So it was like hidden.
So I was 10 pounds heavier thanthan I was supposed to be.
Uh, in that regard too, we'realways trying to inflate what we
think we need but plates orpucks, or oh yeah, I've heard it

(09:32):
all um, how, uh, how, are youfrom a weight standpoint, like
at 17 and even now, like wereyou were?
was that your full size at 17years old?

Speaker 1 (09:43):
yeah, I was kind of an early mature um you know like
never hit the growth spurt,unfortunately like never grew up
.
Yeah, um, but yeah, around thattime I was probably I don't know
150, 155, you know.
As I got to college and startedplaying there I was, my max
weight was probably 165, 170,right around then.
So, um, yeah, it was, wasalways kind of a stocky kid, um,

(10:07):
thank god, because at my heightthat that was probably
necessary.
But I also was pretty lucky tobe a little bit of an early
mature too, um, to be able towithstand, you know, some of the
physicality of the game.
I'm actually a pretty bigbeliever that, like kids that
don't physically mature um early, it's almost like an advantage,
because what you see in hockeyI don't know if you see it by

(10:30):
you guys too, but like a lot oftimes these kids who mature
early, they're reinforced from apositive standpoint to just
skate in a straight line andscore goals, you know, cause
they're just like bigger andstronger and faster than
everybody and they don't reallylearn how to play the game um.
But the kids who don't maturephysically early, like they got
to learn, they got to learn thegame a little bit more, you know

(10:52):
.
They got to figure out sometricks on how to um be
successful throughout the gamewithout having to impose their
you know, their physicalstrength and things like that.
And so I always felt like thethe later matures almost had a
little bit more hockey sense,because they've had to figure
the game out and survive alittle bit.
Um, and and that's where, likein in youth coaching, we talk to

(11:12):
the coaches all the time, likeyou know, don't even even if a
kid skates in a straight lineand scores a goal at mites, like
let's, let's reinforce, liketeam play, because at point
people are going to catch up tothem and you can't use your
physical skill as much.
So a little bit of a tangent tothat, but it's something we

(11:32):
talk about all the time.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
I agree, I think it's a great talking point and
something that I have chattedabout as well.
I've been on a little bit of alate birthday kind of uh focus
because just of how it all worksout.
You know how, especially in thewhl level of the draft that
I've been looking at where,where it's not represented

(11:56):
proportionately, you know, likethe last quarter of the birth
year and it, it just makes sensefrom the standpoint of these
players aren't less talented,they're just less developed.
You know, 10, 11, 12 months atthe age of 13 is a long time.
Right At the age of 14 is along time.
So you know what does that meanin the big picture?

(12:19):
What does that mean todevelopment?
And is there a silver liningfor any of these young guys,
younger guys that maybe mightnot be physically at the level
of some of the early matures?
And you know, from my standpointand my philosophy, I want to
empower people as much as we can, right With the idea of, hey,
there is an opportunity andthere is a chance, and if we

(12:41):
change our perspective of this,maybe there can be some
empowerment in the process.
You know, and to your point, Ithink one of those messages can
be just that.
You know, yes, you may not beas strong right now and you may
not be as fast, and you may notbe getting all the accolades of
some of these big, strong, fastkids.

(13:01):
But if you can look at it froma standpoint of hey, hey, I need
to learn angles to get into,protect pucks differently.
You know, I need to be able tomove pucks past people and then
get open, find open space.
You know, I need to learn theseaspects of the game if we can
actually embrace that.
I do believe what you're sayingis is true.
You know, if that growth spurtdoes come and if we are able to

(13:23):
catch up physically, we shouldhave a higher, higher hockey iq
in the process yeah, a hundredpercent, and it goes both ways
too.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
like you talk about some of those things that are
really important for the kids tolearn for, for the youth, um,
as far as their own playerdevelopment.
But then you also think aboutit from, um, you know, like a
scouting perspective too, and anevaluative perspective, like
let's not get so infatuated withthe kid who just grew faster
than everybody else, who's just,you know, physically dominant,

(13:53):
because that's what it is, um,you know, let's, let's, let's,
spend a little bit more time andeffort looking at the nuances
of the game, the amount of timesthat kids touch the puck, you
know where they are on the ice,the amount of plays that they
make, their compete, their will.
You know, maybe, maybe they area smaller player, um, and they
go in, and maybe they don't winthe battle, but they sure, as

(14:13):
heck gave it, they're all in thebattle.
You know things like that, um,as well, and that goes all the
way down to, you know, six,seven, eight, nine, 10 year olds
.
You know six, seven, eight,nine, 10 year olds, and, and
again, um, that's not to throwshade on some of the older, more
physically mature, mature kids,um, but like looking at the,
the intangibles of things andmaking sure that we're not

(14:35):
leaving kids behind to.
You know, if we look at thingsthrough a different lens, you
know they might end up being abetter hockey player at the end
of the day, even thoughphysically they're not quite
there.
And I know in junior hockeythat's a big thing.
Now, from a scoutingperspective, you know, a lot of
questions that I get from juniorhockey scouts is like you know,
how tall is their dad, how tallis their mom?

(14:56):
You know, like, because they'renot physically mature yet, and
so they're looking at theintangibles and things like that
and then pairing that withwhere they think, size wise, the
kid is going to be in, all thatkind of stuff, um, so yeah,
there's a lot that goes into it,but the one thing that we
always encourage, like I said,the coaches is like let's, let's
make sure we're rewarding theright things at the youngest of

(15:18):
ages, as it relates to whatactually is going to translate
to the next level.
Might the squirt, squirt the P,we, p, we to ban them.
Or I should say Adam, notnovice to Adam, um, you know, um
.
Let's reinforce greatcompetitiveness.
Let's reinforce great team play, the ability to pass the puck
like we don't.

(15:38):
As youth hockey coaches, wedon't stress passing nearly
enough, nearly enough.
For me, that's the biggestthing outside of, maybe, skating
that translates to the nextlevel is the ability to get to
spots to get the puck and theability to find people you know
when, when they're open to.
That's what we would callhockey sense, which is really
really important, right, um, andso, yeah, it's funny just kind

(16:01):
of going through all theiterations of what development
means and you know what thingskind of translate as you get
older and and, um, you know theway that we kind of evaluate
players and what we're trying todevelop in them, um, I think is
changing for the good.
Um, it's it's a little bit less.
You know, are they big and canthey shoot?

(16:22):
Uh, you know it's a little bitmore.
Can they process, can theyunderstand?
Um, and that, like, like we'reboth talking about that could
happen as a very physicallyimmature kid the, the, the
intangible that you're talkingabout now.

Speaker 2 (16:36):
I think it might be more revelant or prevalent or
show up more in a player that,let's call them, is undersized
or a late mature.
And those intangibles for mewould be the courage, the
bravery, the competitiveness,because it is harder for them
and I think that that's a realthing.
You know Josh Doan, who I hadon who's your father, shane Doan

(17:00):
, who you know hall of famer,big 230 pounder.
Josh was a late guy to theparty when it came to growing
and he said he was likelegitimately scared on the ice
right because of what couldhappen and the way he would get
thrown around in a corner.
So he, he had to manufacturekind of the mindset required for
him to be effective.
Uh, I I think it's morerelevant for those players

(17:24):
because it's going to show upmore like how do we encourage or
how do you see like that growthof the of the player from those
intangibles?
Uh, and and how can we, how canwe can support them with that?

Speaker 1 (17:35):
yeah, I mean, I, I agree, like I think about it a
lot, like I think one of my um,probably two best assets when I
was a player growing up was myhockey sense and my
competitiveness.
Like both of them, I had littleman syndrome, you know, like,
but give, put me the uh in thecorner with the biggest guy,
we'll see who comes out with thepuck, yeah, and, and so I think

(17:55):
about it like I don't know if Iachieve what I achieve in this
game or learn the life skillsyou know that are helping me to
be successful in life afterhockey.
If I'm six foot two, cause itwould have been easier for me,
you know I wouldn't have beencut a couple of times when I
shouldn't have been cut.
Um, you know, I would havemaybe, you know, got recognized
or drafted in the NHL orwhatever, had I not been my size

(18:16):
, like I don't know.
But I had to work harder, youknow, because of that thing, and
I had to, I had to get that, bemore resilient and more
mentally tough and stuff, and soI think, really, like a lot of
it comes down to the life skillshonestly.
Um, you know, we we talked alittle bit about the hockey
sense and the competitivenessand things like that, but the
life skills that you kind of getfrom being in a bit of an

(18:38):
underdog, um, and and justhaving to earn it maybe a little
bit more.
And that's what I think.
Like you know, we say all thetime to kids, like the best
players at 10 aren't always thebest at 12.
And the best players at 15aren't always the best at 18.
And a lot of that comes down tothose intangible life skills of
learning how to kind of getthrough the tough stuff.

(19:00):
And when you've been toldyou're so good for so long,
sometimes kids start to believethat and they forget that like
it's hard work, it's not justtalent but it's like hard work
that gets you there.
And, um, and with just the waythat youth hockey is in in terms
of how young kids are gettingrecruited and being told these
kinds of things, like it getsit's easy to to kind of get

(19:22):
complacent.
And that's where the lifeskills that maybe some of these
younger underdeveloped kids haveto learn just to survive and to
be on the same level as thosekids, they start to pass those
kids because they've got thatinner drive and that mental
toughness and that resiliencefrom keeping having to earn it
and earn it and earn it all thetime.
Um and and again, we're all aproduct of our own experiences,

(19:44):
and that certainly was mine.
But you know, being a collegehockey coach and seeing a lot of
kids from, you know, 15, 16years old up until they retire,
that I think that's a big deal.
It's a really big deal.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
So that messaging I like it, I think I like it.
But can we break that down?
Because I know there's playersright now listening, and that's
what I said to you as far as theprecursor to us talking is that
there's going to be smallplayers listening, whether
they're fully mature smallplayers, or whether they're
younger, youth players thathaven't gone through puberty yet
and they're potentiallystruggling with the idea of what

(20:18):
I just said.
Maybe they're.
They're feeling like Josh Stone, they're actually a little bit
scared.
They like Josh Doan, they'reactually a little bit scared.
They want to be good, but theydon't know how to be good.
You know, they don't know howto overcome some of this, some
of these things that they'refeeling inside.
Can we frame this to them?
Is that you are an underdog andit's okay to be an underdog,
and that is where you're goingto find the resiliency to move
forward.
Like, is that part of it, or isthere even more to it than that

(20:39):
?

Speaker 1 (20:49):
Honestly, I wouldn't even say it's okay to be an
underdog.
I think it's an advantage to bean underdog.
I really do, because you reallydo have to learn those life
skills quicker, you know, thanthe other people who've had
maybe more success than you'vehad.
You know throughout their theirupbringing and throughout their
their journey.
And the story I always like totell the kids and it kind of
resonates with them when I was16 years old, I got invited to
what's called the USA hockeyselect festivals and basically
USA hockey brings in the top 200kids in the country for the
showcase festival kind of thing,and from that they pick a team

(21:12):
to go overseas to play in thefive nations tournament.
And, uh, when I was 16, I gotinvited to go and I always
wanted to play for my country.
I thought it'd be the coolestthing ever.
And and, uh, you know, I go tothe camp and I play really well.
And and, um, I was a fourthleading scorer in the entire
camp out of 200.
And so I'm like man, I'm goingto make this team.
This is, this is incredible.

(21:33):
Um, but as as it has it, uh, Idid not make the team and I
remember just it's such like oneof those memories that's etched
inside your head.
Like you know, I found out inthe locker room that I didn't
make it because everybody whodid kind of got an envelope and
a contract.
You know, hey, you made theteam and I didn't.
I didn't get one.
But as I was leaving the lockerroom, the head coach of team

(21:54):
USA comes in and he was actuallylooking for me and he's like
hey, is Topher in here?
And I kind of raised my hand,I'm like okay, and so he brings
me out in the hallway and hestarts telling me about hey, you
played really well this week.
You made a lot of plays, youcompeted, you deserve to make
the team, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But you know, we're team USAand this was in what?
Late nineties, early twothousands, whatever.

(22:15):
You know we're team USA, ouridentity, we're going to be big
and tough and we want tointimidate out these European
teams that we were playing.
And so you played really well,you deserve to make the team,
but because of your size, we'rewe're not going to take you.
You're just, you're analternate, and so just complete
blow.
It's just complete gut punch,right.
And so I'm pissed off and and,and you know I go and I grabbed

(22:35):
my bag and it was in Minnesota.
We live in Chicago.
My dad drove me up there.
So we get in the car and I'mthrowing myself a pity party in
the car Like this isn't fair, Ican't believe it.
Blah, blah, blah.
I'll never forget it.
My dad thank God for my dad.
Man, thank God for my dad.
He kind of looks at me and hegoes.
He's like basically like, areyou done, done?
Complaining, I was like, well,what do you mean?

(22:56):
This is like this, what do youmean?
And he goes Tov, here's thefacts.
Okay, you're five, four, likethe people you're competing
against, for those spots arehalf a foot taller than you.
You have to be that much betterthan everybody else just to be
even.
It's just a fact.
It sucks, but it's a fact, allright.

(23:18):
And if you want to be that muchbetter than everybody else, you
better work that much harderthan everybody else to just to
be even.
And, uh, and, and so he goeslook, we can.
We can sit here and we canwhine and we can complain and we
can think about how life's notfair, or we can do something
about it.
You know what's what's morebeneficial to to sit here and

(23:39):
sulk about how life's not fair,or or let's get to work, like,
let's make sure this neverhappens again.
And and that's where I feellike, as adults, like our job is
not to enable sulking, our jobis not to enable, you know, and
there's a time for a nice bighug when things don't go your
way, there's no question forthat.
But, like, what are you goingto do about it?

(24:00):
Like that question, I think,legitimately, fundamentally
changed my life, because thatsummer I worked so hard and all
I can think about was that neverhappening again.
And it was a.
I have had a lot of success inthe game and that moment is a
big reason why.
It's a big reason why.
So, get your adversity in, getyour rejection, and it's good

(24:22):
for you.
If you choose to see it thatway.
Um, a lot of people choose tosee it that way.
A lot of people don't see itthat way.
A lot of people it's easier tosulk, you know.
It's easier to to make excusesand feel sorry for yourself.
You don't really have to putany effort in to do that.
But, like you know, if you wantto be successful and you want
to pass some some other people.
You know it's good to getrejected.
I think it's good.

(24:43):
It's good to get cut in acertain it's one of the best
things that ever happened to me.
Um, I got caught a couple oftimes in my life and I think it
was the best things that everhappened to me and I don't know
if I've had the success if Idon't.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
I love.
Yeah, that's.
That's what a great story.
I'm glad you shared that.
The the determining factor likethat, that the separation from
the event and and what we decideit means, is critical.
Yeah, whether you're a hockeyplayer, or whether you're going
through life and and your andyour wife leaves you, or you

(25:17):
know, whatever thing happens,whatever the event is, it's
raining outside.
What do you decide that thatmeans?
And, to your point, you decided, with the help of your dad,
that that meant that you now hadmore clarity on your situation
and it resulted in yourecognizing that you needed to
work your ass off and you had tohave an amazing attitude while

(25:40):
you were doing it yeah, yeah,and life is all about choices.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
It's all about choices Like one thing I always
try to tell kids like you haveso much more control over your
life and your journey and yourcareer than you think you do,
because, whatever happens,what's more important the things
that happened to us or the waythat we choose to see the things
that happened to us and theharder choice is to is is to
take a positive out ofeverything.
How can this help me and howcan I get to work?

(26:07):
The easier choice to make is topout and sulk and make excuses,
but nothing great ever happenedon the first try.
I don't think.
Typically, you look atmillionaire, billionaire
entrepreneurs.
You look at so many of thesepeople that make the highest
levels of sport.
One of the stats, jason, that Iabsolutely love and I say it all

(26:29):
the time in my team buildingwith kids is 87% of the players
that played in the NHL last yearin the 23-24 season had to play
in the AHL.
87% of the players that playedin the NHL last year played in
the AHL at some point in theirpro career.
What does that mean?
That means that almost 9 out ofthe players that played in the
NHL last year played in the AHLat some point in their pro
career.
What does that mean?
That means that almost 9 out of10 players that played in the

(26:49):
NHL.
What happened to them?
They got sent down, they gotcut, they were told they weren't
good enough.
Go work on your game before youcome back up.
And to me that's an absolutelyastounding stat, because when I
used to think of an NHL hockeyplayer, I would think of skill.
Because when I used to think ofan NHL hockey player, I would
think of skill right, like theseskill and talent and you know
the highlights on TSN andYouTube and stuff.

(27:10):
And now, after understandingthis stat, when I think of an
NHL hockey player, I think ofgrit, I think of resilience yeah
, there's going to be a coupleof the Crosbys and the McKinnons
and the Ovechkins that neverhave to play a game in the AHL.
They're just that good.
Most players you know yourselfincluded like it.
It.
It's a ride and it's full ofups and downs and twists and

(27:33):
turns and adversity andresilience and and learning how
to freaking manage all thatstuff mentally, emotionally,
physically, um and and uh.
I think I'm also like I'm reallyinto human development and the
psychology of things, and one ofthe terms that a lot of
psychologists are using nowadaysis reframing.

(27:55):
Reframing how can you reframethis situation in your head to
turn it into something that canactually help you moving forward
, whatever that situation is?
And I think, the more that wecan do that and the more that we
can teach kids to do that, like, okay, what's the situation,
what's the choice we're going tomake here on how we're going to
see it, how are we going toreframe this where it can help

(28:16):
us?
Like, ultimately, that might beour most important job as as
coaches and as adults when we'reworking with our kids, and
that's even hard to do as anadult human nature it's it's a
lot easier to be negative thanit is to be positive, and so, um
, yeah, I think you know thoselittle intangibles that we've
been talking about.
Um, how can we, how can we finda positive in every situation

(28:38):
and use it?
Use it to make us better?

Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, and recognizing that there's a choice.
I find that that's one of thebiggest perspective changes with
the players that I work with isallowing them the opportunity
to see that, because I think themajority of us are on autopilot
in some capacity, you know,with their day and with their
responses.
They're emotional, we feelthings and we and we just go
about it.
The aspect that reallyintrigues me about personal
development is just thatrecognizing that we have a

(29:02):
choice in different areas, youknow, and and trying to show
that to to young athletes, Ithink can be very, very
empowering, because when you doface a problem, if our default,
now downloaded, operating systemtells us where's the solution,
that's a way different thing tothink about than like being
stuck in the problem and youknow, on this thing that we want

(29:25):
to avoid or that we'reresistant to, or that we feel
sorry for ourselves about, weautomatically go to.
How is this helping?
How's this working for me?
Why is this?
Why is this presented to me inthis moment, that that is going
to help, something which is likeexactly what you talked about
with that getting cut.
You mean you could, that couldhave wrecked you, you could have
thought the whole thing wasunfair.
The system's's rigged.
It's not for me, right.
This is I picked the wrongsport, you decided to have

(29:47):
another option there and youfound a way out which empowered
you to feel that you were incontrol.
Like that's the message that Iwant to get and you hit on that
earlier is you know, the ideathat you have way more control
than a lot of people recognize,and especially younger athletes
out there is.
Show them the path where theycan feel empowered and uh, and
when you are able to recognizeyourself making new choices in

(30:10):
those moments that's where I geton my coaching call.
That's where people have thebiggest smile on their face.
They broke an old pattern ofresponding to something in a
certain way and they recognizedin the moment that they were
able to pivot, to be courageous,to reset from that mistake.
To recognize it didn't meanwhat they originally thought it
was supposed to be courageous toreset from that mistake, to
recognize it didn't mean whatthey originally thought it was
supposed to mean and they showedup differently.
Like that is a pretty coolthing to feel good about.

(30:37):
Just going to take a short breakfrom my podcast with Topher
Scott to talk to you guys aboutthe UMH 68, which is super
exciting.
For me, it's an expanding brandunderneath Up my Hockey.
The UMH 68 is an invitationalonly experience for youth hockey
players in the westernprovinces of Canada.

(30:58):
So, yes, I'm sorry if you'relistening from the States, this
doesn't include you at this time, but it may be coming to an
area near you in the future.
But as of right now, in 2025,we are hosting events in British
Columbia, alberta, saskatchewanand Manitoba and we are
targeting the minor Bantam agegroup as well as the major

(31:19):
Peewee age group.
So in Alberta, we are going tobe talking to and inviting 2012
born players.
In Saskatchewan, we're going tobe inviting 2012 born players
and in Manitoba, we are inviting2011 born players.
Bc will be doing both 2012s and2011s and this experience is
designed to attract the top 68players in the province, where

(31:45):
we bring everyone together for adevelopmental weekend, an
educational weekend and a highlycompetitive weekend where you
get to play against the otherbest on best in the province.
Super exciting.
We've done it two years in arow in British Columbia, to rave
reviews from those who haveparticipated Parents.

(32:06):
Not often do you pay money forsomething that you thank people
for afterwards.
I know, I'm a hockey parent, Iknow that this happens time and
time again, where you go to aspring tournament, or you go
here or you go there and youinvest money in it, go here or
you go there and you investmoney in it.

(32:26):
And rarely do you have such anextraordinary experience that
you think to send an email tothe host or the organizer
thanking them for the event.
And I say this as gratefullyand as humbly as possible, but
there is an over 50% rate ofemails coming through my inbox
from parents who are taking thetime to thank me for the

(32:48):
experience that their player hadover the weekend.
It's super, super exciting forme to have such an impact on the
parents and on the players withwhat we are providing with the
UMH 68.
It is beyond hockey.
It is underneath the umbrellaof Up my Hockey, which is the
holistic development of theathlete to be the best hockey

(33:09):
player that they can be, andthat philosophy is entrenched in
the weekend.
We take care of these players,we treat them like pros.
We offer workshops for theplayers and the parents, meaning
across all boards.
I do a mindset workshop, whichhas been very well received,
talking about mindset and whenit comes to athletics and how it

(33:30):
can make a difference for themin their hockey careers.
Last year we had on VernonVipers, co-coach, talking about
the BCHL pathway.
We had in a physical trainingcomponent which we combined with
some player testing about whythey're testing, what they can
do to get better, how theycompare to their peer group, and

(33:51):
we also had in a player agent,a player representative, talking
about that pathway, whatpurposes they serve at these
younger ages, when you shouldget one if you need one, what to
look for.
So the idea here is, yes, we aregoing to play hockey at the UMH
68.
And yes, that is the focus andyes, we take care of that.
110%, with stop time, uh, 60minute games, two ice cleans per

(34:15):
game.
Uh, we have trainers on set.
We have coaches with NHL uhexperience or coaches that are
still involved, uh, in the gameat high levels, so you can get
the exposure and the educationfrom those players, those people
on the bench, sorry, and yeah,and it's a best on best
experience.
So the hockey is absolutelyfantastic no early morning games

(34:38):
, no late night games.
We take care of the athletes inthe way that they can sleep and
eat, and then we also have theeducational component.
We also take care of theplayers when it comes to their
dressing room experience.
Their gear gets to stay in thedressing room for the entire
weekend, so you're not bringingthat gear back to the hotel and
having to air it out.
It stays where it is.
They have stalls that arededicated to them, we have a

(35:00):
player banquet that's dedicatedjust to the players, where the
coaches get to address theplayers and speak to them, where
we have reverse uh a raffledraw where they're winning
prizes and and we're educatingthem in the process.
So you guys I mean, the listhonestly goes on and on and it's
been, uh, so well received andI'm so excited to expand.
And if you are someone thatlives in the western provinces,

(35:20):
that you have a 2012 or a 2011that you believe is in the top
68 in the province, by all meansvisit the UpMyHockey website,
upmyhockeycom.
There is what we call a watchlist form.
We do use our hockey network inall the provinces.
We have people watchingtournaments, games in league and
out, and we compile lists ofwho we believe these top 68

(35:42):
players are.
But, of course, there's a lot ofhockey players and there's a
lot of geographic area to cover.
So, even if you feel wellentrenched in the top 68 or well
entrenched in the top 25, putyour name in the hat.
Just let us know that you areinterested and you would like to
come and experience what a UMH68 is.
If you are a coach or a parentof a player and you would like

(36:03):
to refer your player or somebodyon your team or elsewhere in
your league, you can use thewatch list form to do that as
well.
Recognize greatness in yourcommunity.
Let's celebrate these playersand let's give them an
experience unlike any other inthe spring.
So really excited about the UMH68.
There is also sponsorshipopportunities.
If you are in one of thosegeographic areas and you're a

(36:26):
listener, looking for provincialsponsors to get behind the UMH
68 to help keep costs low forthese families that want to
participate, that is a definite.
Priority of mine is to providea world-class experience and
still keep the fees low soeveryone can attend and take
advantage of what's there tooffer.
So if you are a corporatesponsor and want get behind

(36:47):
youth hockey, by all means youcan reach out at
wwwupmyhockeycom as well, orjason at upmyhockeycom to email
me.
Email me directly and uh yeah,fantastic stuff going on with
umh 68, super excited, and uhtill, uh, yeah, till 2025.
June and may is when thesethings are going to be happening
.
So, anyways, let's get back tothe podcast with tofer scott

(37:17):
I'll even take it a step further.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
Like you know, the kids that they're, that you work
with, are really lucky to haveyou to teach them that and and I
said it before like thank Godfor my dad, you know, thank God
for my dad and giving me somesome blunt honesty.
You know in that moment,because you know what we're
seeing nowadays is, you know,the, the, the.
I think people call themsnowplow parents.

(37:39):
Right, where you know they're,they're plowing the snow in
front of the kids so they don'thave to walk through the crap
and they're kind of like tryingso hard to make sure their kid
doesn't have to have so muchadversity.
Because if my dad in that carride home, if his reaction to me
throwing myself a pity partywas to be like, yeah, you know
what it's not fair, it's BS, Ican't believe he said that to

(38:00):
you Like this is brutal.
And then he's gonna call youknow somebody at usa hockey and
say this is bs.
Imagine if he did that.
Like the next year was one ofthe best.
Like I had a great, like Iworked really hard and I became
a much better player.
Because he's instead of likeenabling me and and saying, yeah

(38:21):
, you know what this isn't inyour control and and like,
that's why it's so importantthat, like, we let the kids like
figure it out and go throughthe tough stuff, we can be there
to support and guide andeverything like that.
But, like, how many youthcoaches do you know?
You know, or youth hockeydirectors that you know their
worst and least favorite time isright after tryouts.

(38:42):
Because what do they have to do?
They have to field all thesecalls from all these parents who
feel like their kid got youknow the wrong end of the stick.
Well, let's reframe that.
Those parents, what they shouldbe doing is hey, I guess you're
not good enough this year.
Like, let's get to work.
Like, let's, let's prove themwrong and be the best player on
your team this year and andlet's, let's make the team next
year.
You know, or it's, you know,this team didn't take me, so

(39:05):
we're gonna go to anotherorganization.
And then you see kids that playfor six different organizations
in eight years.
And then you know when it getsto be time for junior hockey or
college hockey or whatever youknow, we're looking at the
history and we're like, oh whoa,this kid played on six
different organizations in eightyears, like Like that's
probably a big red flag.
I don't know if I want to takea kid like that or from a family

(39:28):
like that.
So like, yeah, I think, andespecially as kids, you know,
we're we're immature and wehaven't gone through some of the
life stuff yet.
And and it's important that, asadults coaches, parents,
administrators, people likeyourself who are working with
these athletes too like we haveto teach them this stuff and not

(39:49):
, you know, when the thingsaren't going well, just fight
their battle for them.
Let them fight their battlesand figure it out.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Well and to, if we're going to give, if we're going
to give parents any slack, I dothink that the ones that are,
like we said, enabling enablingyou know the snowplow I don't
think.
I think it's because they don'tsee the other option too.
You know, like they themselvesare stuck in in these old habits
, patterns, like they themselvesprobably view their, their,

(40:17):
their world in that capacityright that someone's out to get
me and it's not for me.
So it's tough.
I mean, I'm just saying it'stough to operate from a
different lens If you haven'tyourself seen that there's
potentially different optionthere, that's, that's a more and
more enabling and a moreempowering one when it comes to
like.
I like the honesty that youtalked about there, with your
dad just saying, hey, this isthe way it is right, like you

(40:39):
need to be better.
Very similar conversation withmy middle son, who is a five
foot five and a half inch goalieright now at u15, playing the
highest level he can play.
His goalie partner is six footone.
It's the funniest thing you'veever seen, right, like when
they're, when they're standingbeside each other on the ice,
and we all know how favorablysmall goalies are looked at
right now in this day and age,right, and so we've had the

(41:03):
discussion.
You know, and I'm like gunner,hey, first of all, hopefully
you're doing this because youlove it, not because you expect
to be an nhl goalie, you know,but like not having it, having a
conversation within the contextof advancing through the sport,
I'm like you are going to haveto be much better, like really
good, like you have to be abetter skater.
You're going to have to have ahigher, uh, say, percentage.

(41:23):
You're gonna have to do thingsthat, uh, that other guys don't
have to do because you'resmaller.
So you can take and he can takethat whichever way he wants to
take it.
Right, you know, he can takethat information and do what he
wants with it.
He can't control how much he'sgoing to grow, but he can't
control how much he's going towork in his skating or how much
he's going to compete or, youknow, I mean all these other
things that he's going to do.

(41:43):
So I like, personally, I likethe rawness of what you're
talking about there from yourfather, right, like that you put
this, this formula, this thingin front of them in real black
and white terms and then theycan do something about it.
The other thing that comes tomind, toph, and you'll probably
like this is my son last year inhis draft year airing all the
family stuff.
I think that's, that's fine.

(42:04):
My kids know that I'm able totalk about them.
I like talking about thembetter than my clients.
I'll keep that a little moreprivate.
But he was really upset that hewasn't getting um these surveys
from whl teams it was whathalfway through his draft year,
right, and he'd only had two andhis other guys that had x, y
and z and all his teammates thathad all these, all this
recognition, and he felt that hewasn't getting what he deserved

(42:25):
, right, that he was workinghard and he was getting his
points and doing his thing.
And uh, and I and I said to himonce I said how do you want to
like what?
You know why you're not gettingthem?
Well, no, I don't know what'sgoing on.
I mean it's so frustrating andI'm like because you can't
fricking skate.
I'm like that's why you need tobe a better skater.
I've talked to you about thisbefore and like he's a kid that

(42:45):
works his ass off in anything,right, but he had avoided those
components of his owndevelopment resistance there
that he wasn't really doing thethings that would require him to
be a better skater, and thatmoment in time was when he
switched gears because it meantenough to him he'd meet where he
met his own pain point and thenhe started doing all the things
that he could be doing slideboard, you know, plyometrics

(43:07):
this, that and the other, on hisown time, deliberately, with
intention, consistently, and hisskating changed enough in the
second half of the year that hewas drafted in the fourth round,
you know like and it was reallylike yeah, it was like a
massive game and he still needsto work on it.
I mean, that's still his thing,but like, like that black and
white honesty, he reached hispoint and it was like, and then
he did something with thatinformation.

(43:27):
So, uh, anyways, a couplestories there for hopefully that
that, that, uh, that motivatessome kids out there that know,
and, and parents, you know thatthe truth is okay, right?
Yeah, new Cause I'll give youthe option.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Can I, can I add something to that, because I
think this is really importantto like?
I had a great relationship withmy dad, um to the point where
he could be upfront and honestwith me.
Um, you have a greatrelationship with your son to
the point where you can behonest with them and he's going
to appreciate, you know, thefact that you're you're being
that honest with them.

(43:59):
Um, the relationship has tocome before the honesty.
You know, if you're a hockeyparent or you're a hockey coach,
um, that wants to give criticalfeedback to people, the kid has
to know that you care aboutthem before you can do that.
Uh, if you don't, and you'rethat harsh with somebody, I
think you're going to lose themand even though what you're

(44:23):
saying potentially could be true, you know if it's some kind of
constructive criticism ornegative feedback or whatever,
like and you know this is acoach, like again, it's the
cliche thing they don't care howmuch you know until they know
how much you care and um, so I II think it's awesome that you
have a relationship with yourson where you can be honest with

(44:44):
him and and he'll listen andhe'll get to work just like I
had with my dad, but I've seenit with a lot of parents who are
critical of their kids andtheir games and it just goes in
one ear and out the otherbecause the relationship from
that.
They're like dad, I just wantyou to be a dad.
You know, let my coach give methe feedback type stuff, um, so

(45:04):
I I think that's reallyimportant in this as well, like
if you the, the care and and therelationship has to come before
the, the constructive criticism.
I think that's a reallyimportant part of it.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
No, I'm glad you added to that, for sure, the and
I don't know how your dad wasor how I mean, I just know how I
am with like I'm not critical,like, unless they ask me for
critique, you know, like I'mpretty stand back, so like, when
I do say something like that,it's not, they're not hearing it
19 times a week and it justbecomes noise.

(45:37):
You know what I mean.
It's like once in a while ifthey want, if they want to hear
it.
So that's the way I kind ofapproach it.
And the other thing I'll add toyou and to your point there,
for everyone listening issometimes you got to ask
permission.
As a parent or as a coach, doyou want feedback about
something that I think mightgive you some value?
Yeah, instead of just giving itand delivering it, they might

(46:00):
not be ready for it, you know.
And so if they do say, yeah,I'd like to hear what you think
about my game, now they've,they've invited you to give them
that.
I think that changes thatdynamic of that communication
pretty substantially for a lotof players and uh, and they're
much more likely or what toreceive it.
You mean, if you respect whatthey're saying, some might say
no, I don't want to Right.
So I think that's a littlepoint there too.
If your mom or a dad or a coachis like ask, ask the kid, ask

(46:21):
the kid if he wants to hear.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Yeah, it was funny.
I was talking with my dad aboutthis literally last week.
It's so funny that this came upbecause, um, we always had a
rule in our car that, um, if wewere going to talk about hockey,
I had to be the one to bring itup and we were talking about it
.
And it was funny because Ithink I don't I can't remember,
I think it was maybe 11 or 12years old and my dad was telling

(46:43):
me the story about how, at onepoint, I looked at him in the
car and I was like, dad, can westop talking about hockey right
now?
Can we talk about somethingelse?
And it was an aha moment forhim, like I need to shut up you.
You know, like this is not thekind of hockey parent that I
want to be, and, um, and so thatwas.
That was kind of the rule thathim and my mom had in the cars,

(47:03):
like, if, if we wanted to, or ifI wanted to talk hockey, then
let's do it.
You know, my dad's playedcollege hockey, like he's been
involved in the game for a longtime, and so I value his opinion
.
Um, but yeah, just really funnyand and that's one thing.
We do a lot with the hockeythink tank.
We do a lot of parent educationstuff and we really hammer home
how important the car ride homeis and how it's important to

(47:25):
have a really good car ride homepositive support, love.
You know, and you know justlike you with our podcast.
You know, sometimes we get theopportunity to get these really
high level hockey people on guyshave played in the nhl, women
that have played in the olympicsand stuff and we always ask
them every time what was yourcar ride home like?
And we have yet to encounter ahigh level hockey player that

(47:46):
has said it was a negative carride home.
You know every single one and uh, it just.
Man.
I feel like the car ride homefor a kid's development is as
much, maybe even more importantthan anything a coach can do on
the ice to give you the hockeyskills.
You know that relationship isso important and I honestly you

(48:07):
probably do too, like I.
I know guys that I've playedwith who struggle to allow their
dads to be around theirgrandkids because of the way
that their dads treated themgrowing up when it came to
hockey and they don't want thatfor their kids and that's that's
.
That's tough, like that's.
So I asked parents like is that, is that what you want, you

(48:32):
know?
Like what's, what's your whyhere?
Like what, what do you want toget out of this situation with?
With?
your kid here because it's alonger game than just you know
the however many years thatthey're playing the game, um,
and that's an unfortunatebyproduct of a lot of parents
that are maybe a little bit too,too harsh, or whatever you want

(48:53):
to call it their kids umcritical, um, yeah, it's a big
deal.
The car ride home is a big deal.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
I agree.
I agree, man.
I'm glad you mentioned personaldevelopment earlier.
Like I'm, I would considermyself a little bit of a geek
about it.
You know, uh, uh, I just like,philosophically, I believe that
we're here to evolve the bestthat we can in whatever capacity
.
You know, that's kind of theway I've operated on a personal
level, whether it be sports or,you know, my coaching or
whatever does, does not meanthat I'm perfect in any capacity

(49:23):
, but it means that I'm trying,you know, and and I think that
for me, the the emotional IQaspect of what you're talking
about is something that we cangrow, and I and I view all this
stuff as skills, and I think ifyou're lacking in the emotional
IQ department, I think that'swhen a lot of this stuff goes
wrong, like in the car ride.
Yeah, we want the hockey thingto be good and we're passionate

(49:44):
about that, but if we don'trecognize the emotional spot
that the kid is in or the player, and then we come at them with
an energy or in a way that, like, isn't productive, you know
we're not doing anyone anyfavors, right, and now there's
just hostility involved in there.
And so I think you know, doingsome work as a parent or as a
coach on that emotional iqaspect and and being able to,

(50:06):
you know, feel energy,understand it, what the
personality type is in the car.
I think is really important andyou know it's definitely
something that I'm growing with.
But even as you were saying that, I was thinking like the last
car ride home I had with Hudson.
He had a weekend that he wasn'tsuper happy with.
As a parent watching I wasn'tsuper happy with it either.
You know details of the game,things that could have been

(50:26):
happening.
But he came into the car and Icould tell he was like not happy
and I wasn't going to be acheerleader for him either.
Right, it was just like and itwas just quiet, and it wasn't
quiet in any type of negative,but he just didn't want to talk
and there was nothing for me tooffer him in that scenario.
So the silence was okay.
You know, it was just like wejust went and then it was three,

(50:47):
four hours later at the dinnertable where he wanted to start
talking about it, you know.
So I think it is a lot aboutwhen the player, I think, is
ready and how they are, andhopefully we can allow them the
space that they need and justgive them a free ride.
Even If they don't want to talkabout it, then it's not up to
us to initiate that conversation.

(51:08):
So, yeah, really great pointsthere.
If we're going to shift gearsback to you a little bit, I'd
like to know a little bit morejust about how you got in with
the steel and and thatexperience with the USHL and
playing that high of a levelagain at five foot four.
I part of my part of mycoaching program includes a
story from Nathan Gerby talkingabout his you know his evolution

(51:32):
through the game and how weended up being the shortest
position player ever at fivefoot four to play in the nhl.
So, like I love there's notmany of you right so how, how
that happened, how you made thatteam, what type of fight you
had to put up to get there.
Can you, can you walk usthrough some of that?

Speaker 1 (51:46):
yeah.
So it was actually pretty crazy, like back when I was of that
age, like we didn't really knowjunior hockey, you know, like it
wasn't really a thing down inthe states.
Yet there was ushl, northamerican league, but like you
know, we didn't really know whatit was or whatever, and there
was a team that moved from fargoum down to chicago.

(52:06):
The team got sold and then gotand then moved down to chicago
and we had a team of 15 yearolds that the year before we won
the national championship downhere in the states.
So we had a lot of really goodplayers and we all went to the
tryout just to kind of, oh, hey,they invited us.
It was like, yeah, see what itis.
And I ended up like doing reallywell at the tryouts as a 15
year old um and and made theteam from there just kind of on

(52:27):
a whim, almost um and and it'sthe the really interesting part
about it, kind of tying back towhat we were talking about was
the hardest year of hockey I'veever had in my life.
Like I am somebody thatabsolutely loved the game still
do, but like at that time, likethat's all I thought about.
I just I loved to play hockeyand I was close to quitting.
I was legit close to quitting.

(52:48):
I couldn't do it Like it wasjust, I was depressed, like I.
It was the first time in mylife where hockey was like not
easy for me.
You know, like my life, wherehockey was like not easy for me.
You know, like um, and, and so,yeah, and again, thank god for
my parents.
I had great parents like what'sit?
What's a positive?
That's the thing they alwaystalk to me about.
What's a positive we can takeout of this?
What's a positive that we cantake out of this?

(53:09):
What's a positive we can takeout of this?
You're gonna be better for it.
Um, because I was like I hadconversations with them of, like
I, I don't want to play thisanymore.
Like can I just go play midgethockey with my buddies?
Like I, it's not fun for me.
And they're like Nope, you madea commitment, stick it out.
And if you still feel the sameway after next year, um, then
we'll, we'll make a decision.
You know, um, and so it wasreally hard and that's why, like

(53:33):
I banged the drum like don't,and so many kids want to get to
the next level as fast aspossible.
But like, no, you know, like,go when you're ready.
You know, um, dominate yourlevel before you move up to the
next one.
Um, over marinate is what a lotof scouts call it Like just

(53:53):
just really marinate, anddevelopment's a marathon and
it's not a sprint.
So, like, my first year with thesteel was really really hard,
really really hard.
Um, eventually it ended upworking out and I learned some
things and um figured it out.
Um, but it took me four years.
You know, I played four yearsof junior hockey before I went
on to college.
Um, and I needed all four ofthose years.

(54:14):
My third year, I tore myl inthe first game of the season, so
it was kind of a lost year, butstill, like I needed that.
That was another setback thatif I don't have that, I don't
know if I have the success,because I learned a lot of stuff
going through that um.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
So yeah, junior hockey is a different animal, as
you know, um, and and so I Iencourage kids all the time like
there's no race to get there,go when you're ready, go when
you're ready wasn't thatinteresting, though right,
because in saying that, wouldyou have undone that first year
now because, like that firstyear, yeah, so it kind of like
that established you gave yousome identity, you know, help

(54:50):
build that resilience piece,probably how you identify with
yourself as being an undergodand being able to fight through
things.
Yet you're also saying that,maybe to others, that maybe you
shouldn't go early.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Yeah, no, I don't know, I don't think you should.
I mean, granted, here it's verygood to be challenged, right,
and to to fail and that kind ofthing, but I, I do feel like,
especially at the junior hockeylevel level, it's it's not only
the hockey side of things, butit's the lifestyle that you have
to live and learning new thingsand and being in a locker room

(55:24):
with kids that are four, three,four years older you than you
for the first time and hearingthose conversations, they're
very different, you know, thanthe conversations you have at 15
, 16 years old, right.
So, um, yeah, I think you canstill be challenged, but you
know, ripen up before you, youget there yeah, yeah, boy,
that's such an interesting one.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
I've had that conversation before with a few
people and even like a guy likejerome mcginley that I had on
the podcast.
You know, at 16 he went to theblazers and very similar what
you're saying, that I wanted togo home at different points in
the year he wasn't playing, hewas.
You know, the way the ecosystemworked there in the culture was
that 16-year-olds, you know,got three shifts in the first

(56:05):
and two in the second and youknow, and if the game was in
reach then they wouldn't play inthe third.
Now, should Jerome McGinleyhave been somewhere else scoring
a ton of goals in midget?
I, jerome McGinley, beensomewhere else scoring a ton of
goals and midget, I mean, Idon't know right, like I'm sure
he probably would have workedout fine either way.
But that experience and beingpart of that blazer culture set
him up for a really, really good17 year old year.
Now maybe that culture isdifferent in a different

(56:27):
organization and it doesn'tactually foster growth and
development, right, and maybeJerome McGinley, if he's wired a
little differently from apersonality standpoint, maybe he
doesn't have that type of youknow type of response to it.
So I do, I mean, I love whatyou're saying there, because
I've definitely recommended someplayers to not go when they've
been asked and I do think thatthe mentality let alone the

(56:51):
physicality, like the mentalityof the player, is really really
important when you'reconsidering what you're going to
and the support system of thatplayer too.

Speaker 1 (56:59):
Yeah, if I had different parents, I'm probably
out of hockey at 16 or it's.
I don't go on this trajectorythat I went on, you know, um.
So, yeah, the mental makeup ofthe player, the emotional makeup
of the player, the eq, like youtalked about, um, the support
system, and that's why, you know, development is such a fun

(57:20):
thing to talk about and such abecause there's there's not a
manual for it there.
There kind of is, but everysituation, every kid, every
everybody's different right.
So, like um, that's why havingthese conversations are great,
because you can.
You can look at things from twodifferent perspectives, and
there's not one right way,there's not one wrong way, but
you can take where the situationthat you're in and learn from

(57:43):
other people's stories and havea little bit more of a
perspective so you can make somejudgments and some some moves
on your own.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Yeah, I think the mental intangibles that we
talked about earlier are reallyimportant, like if those kids
have the tools of what we werediscussing earlier and you now
are in that very hard, difficultenvironment and you're viewing
that hard, difficult environmentas your opportunity to really
shine and to showcase and tofight through and and do and do
these things.
Like that changes yourexperience in that environment

(58:11):
too, right, and so I do thinkthat's relevant to to the
discussion.
Well, how did that?
How think that's relevant to tothe discussion?
Well, how did that?
How did you end up with a sealin your chest after, you know,
fourth year there?
Yes, people love to coaches,love to give, you know, letters
to guys that have been in theirorganization for a while, but it
was after the year that yousaid you had a torn acl.
You know it wasn't like youwere lighting the lamp, it looks
like when you were in thelineup, uh, what what, in your

(58:34):
opinion, was was, uh, was howyou were given that honor.

Speaker 1 (58:38):
Well, for that year it was actually my coach that
gave it to me.
And my second year with theSteel, we had an assistant coach
His name was Will Nickel, andthen he became the head coach.
He left to do a prep schoolthing for a year and then he
came back to be the head coachmy fourth year.
And, having known me, thatsecond year that he coached with

(59:01):
us, he he basically gave it tome before the season, um, which
I've always been a believer thatthe players should vote the
captains.
Um, but I was obviously honoredto to get that and um willis,
he's the director of playerdevelopment for, uh, the vegas
golden knights now.
He actually invited me up to astanley cup party.
Like that's the kind of guy heis.
He still keeps in touch withhis players, even in junior

(59:21):
hockey.
Obviously, I'm in the game andwas in college hockey so we
would see each other at rinksand stuff like that.
But yeah, that's kind of how ithappened.
He's one of the best coaches,one of the best leaders I've
ever had.
Even thinking about it now, aswe're having this conversation,
like a real big honor that he heentrusted me in that, because

(59:42):
he's a guy that is very intoleadership, development, um, and
you know, building obviouslynot just good players but good
people, and and he's the best,he's the best.
So yeah, that's how it happenedyeah what?

Speaker 2 (59:54):
um, maybe we can talk about that for a little bit,
because I have players, as youdo.
People like to be recognized,they want to be leaders.
You know, and there'sdefinitely skills of that are
involved in that, and I thinkleadership skills do change as
you go through the ranks.
You know, like you being a, youbeing a captain of a junior
team is going to be differentthan you being captain of a

(01:00:15):
college team and it's going tobe different than being a
captain of your bantam team,sort of what is expected of you
or what you think you do.
Well, uh, is there a?
What do you see?
Maybe we'll start with that,with a youth, youth environment.
If you're a coach, or even ifyou're a player out there, like,
what attributes, what do youthink allows a player to be a c
or an a in a youth organization?

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
it's great question.
I think, first and foremost,you lead with your actions first
and not your words, so you'reputting yourself in a much
better situation to have aleadership role on the team if
you're one of the hardestworking players out there.
A lot of times in youth hockeyI feel like coaches just give
the C or the A to the bestplayer, which isn't necessarily

(01:00:57):
reinforcing the best things,even if that player is, you know
, really skilled and talented,but maybe they're only about
themselves or you know, whateverum, I.
I feel like just the work ethicside of things is is really
important.
And then, like honestly does,does this person just care about
the thing on the front of thejersey more than the thing on
the back?
That's that for me, iseverything.

(01:01:24):
You gotta be playing forsomething bigger than yourself
and and um, understanding that,um and and leading through
actions of this is what's bestfor the team.
Um, that goes a long way.
That goes a long way as you getolder.
I feel like one of the mostimportant attributes of a leader
is just authenticity beingyourself.
I think a lot of leaders,myself included.

(01:01:44):
I'll raise my hand up thereOnce you get that C or once you
get that A, you kind of feellike you got to be somebody
different, when in realityyou're getting that because you
deserve it, because of who youare, and so, um, uh, you know, a
captain I always say this likea coach is only as good as his
leadership, you know, and theleadership's only as good as the
secondary leadership, you know.

(01:02:05):
So, like, everybody plays apart in it, everybody plays a
role.
Um, even if you're a strongleader but you don't have great
um secondary leadership with you, like it's more about a
leadership team than anythingelse, than just one, because
everybody's different there'sgoing to be times when, um,
maybe you're a leader thatdoesn't like to say much in the
room Um, you just kind of leadby example.

(01:02:26):
But there's some times wheresomebody has got to step up and
say something and be like hey,this is how it's got to be.
There's there's going to betimes where teams aren't playing
, the team's not playing well,and you need a leader to kind of
be a bit of a jokester andstand up and say, hey, you know,
we're all like, crack a jokeand ease the tension of of a

(01:02:46):
room.
Um, leaders come in alldifferent shapes and sizes and,
um, just being the best versionof yourself, I think is a big,
big piece of that.
But you know, going back to it,you have to work, you have to
be a really hard worker, numberone and you have to care about

(01:03:07):
your team and your teammates.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Just going to take one more short break with Topher
to share the ambassador programor the affiliate coach program
available at Up my Hockey.
There has already been so manyawesome, qualified, passionate
people that have reached outthat want to be a part of Up my
Hockey, want to help players allacross North America to be

(01:03:31):
their best and believe thatmindset is a key component in
high performance.
So I'm super grateful for thoseof you who have already said hi
, hey, I want to be involved.
What's this all about?
And I want to extend an inviteelsewhere.
Maybe you are hearing this forthe first time.
Maybe this is your call toaction.

(01:03:52):
If you live somewhere in NorthAmerica actually doesn't have to
be North America.
Why am I restricting theborders there?
Hockey is growing everywhere.
If you're a listener in theUnited Kingdom, in Finland, in
Sweden if you believe thatmindset is a key component to
development and to highperformance and you'd like to be
involved with Up my Hockey insome capacity, whether it's

(01:04:13):
supporting the programs alreadyavailable or whether it is being
an assistant or associate coachat some point, then by all
means reach out to jason atupmyhockeycom and let me know
you are interested.
The idea with this is to growthe Up my Hockey programs, to
grow the availability of mindsettraining to athletes everywhere

(01:04:35):
and give them the power thatthey deserve.
Confidence is a thing that canbe built.
High performance and theapproach to the long game with
development is something thatthese players can learn and
adapt, and it is so freakingamazing when they do.
It's such a gratifying thing tobe a coach.
I'm thankful every day for thepeople that I get to touch and

(01:04:57):
work with and make a differencefor them.
And if that speaks to you, ifyou are out there and if you are
somebody that already workswith athletes, if you are
somebody that's involved incoaching in some capacity, want
to expand your game as a coach,then by all means, if you are
passionate about playerdevelopment, you are in the
right spot.
So once again, jason, atupmyhockeycom or the

(01:05:19):
upmyhockeycom website, where youcan fill out a contact form and
let me know that you'd like toeither be an ambassador or an
associate coach, and I can walkyou through what those steps are
and we can meet face to face ona Zoom.
So, yes, thank you to those ofyou who are there.
Thank you to those of you whoare there, thank you to those of
you who are making a differencealready in your areas.
Without you, coaches, andwithout you, people who want to

(01:05:39):
inspire and motivate these youngathletes, the game wouldn't be
in the place it is right now.
So awesome job to all of youout there who are doing what you
do.
This is coming out at Christmastime, so I am grateful for all
you listeners out there thathave given up my hockey, your
attention, and have used thedownloads and have subscribed.
Wherever you listen.
I really do appreciate thesupport.

(01:06:00):
Hopefully, this episode andothers are something that you
are gaining education fromknowledge, from reasons to have
discussions with your playersand that's really the idea is to
give back to a game that'sgiven me so much.
So thank you so much.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Merry Christmas everybody,happy holidays.
And now let's get back to theconversation with Topher Scott.
There's two things there that Iwant to touch on.

(01:06:27):
One is like the vocal aspect ofbeing a leader, and I think it
gets misconstrued at the youngerage age groups that that people
feel that they need to be theguy saying something in the room
.
I, I personally think thatthat's the last thing anyone
needs to worry about at Adam orPeewee or Bantam or whatever,
right, that's generally thecoach's job.
Uh, because that's the partwhere it can.

(01:06:48):
Like, the leadership can getcringy sometimes, like they feel
you have to say something andit's like this rah-rah speech
that you see in a movie, notnecessarily required.
Like I say, lead yourselfthrough actions, right, like, be
really committed to what youwant to do, your goals, and when
you're committed to that andthat shows up in your actions,
you are standing out because noteverybody's doing that.

(01:07:09):
So you're being a great leaderby, by example, and then
celebrate others, like, if youcan do those two things, that
you celebrate the success ofother people in your locker room
, whether they score, whetherit's a, you know, a hit a back
check, something in the weightroom, and you're one of those
guys that is shining a light onother people.
They feel good about themselves.
Like that is vocal enough,right, and I think that that

(01:07:32):
also speaks to what you'retalking about, about caring
about the team.
You know, it's not necessarilyanother thing that I hear, I
don't know if you hear it, but,like, worried if somebody's
feeling down to go over thereand pat them on the back, like
I'm not saying that's a negativething, that's a great thing to
do.
But you also, you know,sometimes when you're down, you
just want to be down right, likeyou just need a second to be by
yourself, right, if you cancelebrate them in a way that
encourages them, that is.
That is more in a positiveaspect.

(01:07:54):
Don't worry about being acounselor or don't worry about
doing anything else.
Like I think it simplifies itfor kids sometimes, did you?
How do you feel about what Ijust threw out there?

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
oh, it's so true.
Um, I have a great story onthat too.
So one of the first people weever had on our podcast actually
was a guy named georgeasdeckyand I don't know if you know
Guas, but he coached collegehockey at the university of
Denver for a long time, wonnational championships there,
and one of the stories that hetold us was when he was an

(01:08:26):
assistant coach at Michiganstate he was out recruiting and
this was years ago outrecruiting at Notre Dame out in
Wilcox, saskatchewan.
They had a great program outthere and he was going to watch
Rod Brindamore.
I'm sure most people know whothat is, but for those that
don't, he's the head coach ofthe Carolina Hurricanes right

(01:08:46):
now.
He's been a captain in the NHL,won a Stanley Cup, probably
going to win a Stanley Cup as ahead coach.
He's that good.
But he goes out there to watchrod brindamore play and he's
watching him play and obviouslyhe's really talented and things
like that.
And uh, then he goes, rodbrindamore first period.
He scores a goal and he justkind of raises his stick like it
was no big deal, they scored agoal, whatever and then he

(01:09:09):
continues to watch the game.
He's like yeah, he's a prettygood player, this and that, and
then he's on the ice and one ofhis teammates scored a goal and
the guy acted like he won thestanley cup, like that.
His celebration for when histeammates scored as opposed to
the celebration of when hescored he was like that told me
a lot about him right there andI knew right then that we were

(01:09:31):
going to commit to him.
And what do do you know?
He commits to Michigan state,goes there.
There's the whole you knowthing about Rod Brindamore
getting the keys to the weightroom and or them having to lock
him out of the weight room andstuff like that when he was
there.
But it's those intangiblethings, right, that really make
a leader.
And it's no surprise that RodBrindamore is the head coach of
the NHL and was a captain of aStanley cup winning team,

(01:09:52):
because that stuff is importantand so that that hopefully
reiterates and drives your pointhome.
You know the celebrating yourteammates is it goes a long way
as a leader, no question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
I love that.
Yeah, what a great story.
And it is so you, we can talkabout that.
This is the thing where I tryto get my athletes to understand
I, we can talk about actions.
Right, so a kid could go to agame now and celebrate others,
but it could be like it could bea little bit of a forced action
, let's say, because he's tryingto look good and he's trying to
be a teammate, but he actuallyhasn't seen the reason why he

(01:10:27):
should right.
And when you can, when you canexplain why you should like,
that there is value in theelement of success.
Like there is clues in thatsuccess, one you can like find
lessons in his success.
The positivity you're going tobe showing him is something
that's going to make you feel,as a chemistry related scenario

(01:10:49):
in your body, better aboutyourself.
Their success does not diminishyour potential for success at
all.
Yeah, right, like there's somany things when you're talking
with players and I know you'veseen it is that's one of the big
ones is like we're in acompetitive environment, even on
a team, like whether it's withyour peer group or not, that you
want to be able to stand outbecause you want to advance.

(01:11:11):
So somebody else doing well canfeel like unsafe, almost right,
like we, like this is.
This is hampering me, but thereality of it, that it isn't
like their success, can be yoursuccess and then some.
And so to reframe that again,to use your words right, to
allow them to see it through adifferent lens, so now they can
authentically really believethat the celebration of somebody

(01:11:33):
else is not only benefitingthem and the team but it's also
benefiting themselves from anindividual performance
standpoint, can be like the realbreakthrough.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Yeah, one of the best lessons that I learned and this
is coming from Will Nickel, mycoach with the Chicago Steel,
who may be captain it came fromhim and that was that individual
success comes from team success.
It's not the other way around,and the better you do as a team,
the more individual successeach one of you are going to
have too.
And I'll never forget our firstday in the rink as a team with

(01:12:02):
the steel that year.
You know, we get up into theconference room, everybody's
sitting around a big table andwe're going to go through all of
our values and systems andstructure and all that kind of
stuff.
And first thing that that coachdid is he came around the table
and he put a pamphlet down infront of all of us, right, this
little pamphlet of about four orfive sheets of paper, and on
the pamphlet it showed theamount of college commitments

(01:12:25):
that each team in the USHL hadthe year before.
And this was, you know, earlytwo thousands, when you kind of
went to junior hockey to get acommitment rather than kind of
like getting it.
And then junior hockey, um andso um, his his point.
So he kind of asked us he waslike, which teams have the most
college commitments.

(01:12:45):
And we were like, well, theteams that were at the top of
the standings last year, andhe's like that's right, because
scouts want winners, you know,and scouts want team guys, and
teams that win have more teamguys.
And so the better we do as ateam, collectively, and the more
you all buy into what we'redoing, the more individual
success you guys are going tohave as as as players.

(01:13:08):
And if you guys want to dothings your own way or you don't
buy in, we're not going to havesuccess as a team.
And just look at the data herewhich teams have the most
individual success?
It's the ones that have themost team success, and it was a
really interesting way to kindof go about it and I'll never
forget that because it is sotrue when you get to be a part
of a team, especially when youget older, you have to rely on

(01:13:31):
your teammates a lot, and that'swhy a lot of you know junior
hockey franchises aren't verygood.
They bring in me people whojust want to get to the next
level.
That's why a lot of NHL teamscan't get over the hump is
because they got too many meguys and not enough.
We guys, um, and becausethere's money involved and it's
a business, and you know, theteams that are the tightest and

(01:13:51):
the teams that play to theirstructure the best are typically
the teams that win, and so, um,yeah, I love what you said
there, like the, the individualsuccess comes after the team
success you know, it's not theother way around.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
There's a, and it comes up time and time again,
even at the pro level.
You know the AHL champions.
Look how many guys signed thatare free agents.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
That'll get signed from those teams, right, like
how much more money do you guysget after winning a stanley cup
when they're free agents?

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
you know they basically double their salary
because people want people whoknow how to win it shows up
again and again and again and toall the really good players out
there in their team, the one,the one message I try and get
them to understand is like beinga really good player is
different than being a greatplayer, and the great players do
make the people around thembetter as well.
You know, and I think that thatshows up at the NHL level too.

(01:14:41):
You know who is?
Who has ever played with SidneyCrosby that hasn't scored 40
goals right or had a career yearor whatever right Like these
guys.
These guys make everyone good,make everyone good and and I
think that's a cool challenge Igot as a good player out there
to be to have that challenge.
You know what I mean.
How how can I, how can I makeso-and-so better?
How can, how can I make thisline work?
How do I get somebody elseinvolved?
I think that's pretty cool, CanI?

(01:15:02):
I want to.
You mentioned about authenticityand for me, I love that topic
because I believe that when aplayer is understanding who they
are as a person and how thatshows up and is reflected on the
ice, that is when they're goingto play their best, because a
lot of times in a teamenvironment.
We get.
We get it's not necessarily a aconscious, rational peer

(01:15:26):
pressure scenario, but we feelwe have to act a certain way.
Right and and this and this waythat we're supposed to act may
not be conduciveive to how we'reactually going to play our best
.
For example, right, beingreally serious in the locker
room before a game starts mightnot be the way that that guy
really is going to prepare to behis best.
Maybe he needs to be a littlebit looser, standing up right,
dancing to the music, somethinglike that.

(01:15:47):
So something as simple as thatmight help a player.
Now you're talking about being acaptain and authentically being
you, yet trying to be a captainat the same time.
Right, Because you're thinkingthat maybe something has to
change.
Can you just walk like your ownpersonal experience with that,
Maybe, where you showed up alittle differently, maybe how,
as you went through that process, how you learned to understand

(01:16:07):
yourself more and be the bestcaptain you could be within your
own skin?

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Sure, yeah, I mean, there's so many different facets
to that.
I do think that, like when Ibecame a captain at cornell, at
the time we had kind of somelike off-ice discipline issues.
Like we had a couple guys thatdidn't buy in, a couple guys
were probably a little toosocial, you know, and we had
kind of a down year the yearbefore after two championship
years and it just wasn't rightin the locker room Like it, just
that the chemistry wasn't thereand there wasn't.
Everybody wasn't all in, let'sjust say.
And so, um, I took it uponmyself as a captain to kind of

(01:16:48):
be a hard ass, and if guysweren't doing things in a
certain way, it was, you know,getting into them in a tough way
and things like that.
And that is not who I am at all.
Um, you know, I'm I'm apositive person.
That's kind of my personality,um, high energy type stuff.
And I was kind of playing thischaracter, um, out of the

(01:17:11):
goodness of my heart, like Iwasn't trying to be an asshole,
but like I felt like that's whatI needed to do to get guys to
kind of get on the straight andnarrow again.
Um, and then I and I lost.
It's one of my biggest regrets,honestly, that I have in my
hockey career is how I startedas a captain.
When I did that, um, and againluckily, again it goes back to
your support group I had acouple guys be like dude, what

(01:17:33):
are you doing?
You know, like enough with theact man like, and again this
this was a group where we votedfor captains and the players on
the team voted me as a captainand they voted me as a captain
because I was a certain way andthen, when I became a captain, I
became somebody different.
Instead of being the guy thatyou know earned, earned it by
how I, how I lived my life Um,and so I changed.

(01:17:58):
I had to change and so, ratherthan kind of like looking for
things that guys were doingwrong, it was like, okay, like
let's look for, look for thingsthat guys are doing right, and
if they did do something wrong,it was taking them out to lunch
the next day and hey, let's havea conversation about it.
Hey, is everything okay.
And this is how we do thingshere, instead of, you know,
getting into them and I don'twant to say yelling at them, but
, like you know, just theharshly doing thing, which is

(01:18:20):
not authentic to me, right?
And so, um, yeah, it was.
It was a great learningexperience, and I had a similar
learning experience as a coachtoo.
Um, you know, trying to.
All the coaches that I hadgrowing up were kind of like
strong, authoritarian,disciplinarian type coaches.
That's what I knew.
And so when I became a coach, Ikind of got into that and and
again, same thing.

(01:18:41):
Like I had a couple of playerscome up to me and be like you're
kind of losing guys right now.
Um, we know, this isn't youlike, what's what's up?
And so, same thing.
I had to change.
And same like, rather thanlooking for things that guys
were doing wrong, it was lookingfor things doing right.
And um, you gotta, you justgotta be yourself, you just

(01:19:01):
gotta be yourself as a leader.
Um, you're, you're, you're.
When you're more you, peopletend to gravitate like, and I
know for me and I think we eventalked about this when you came
on our podcast like, the thingthat I hate the most from guys
that coach me were when Ithought they were playing an
angle, you know, and they werenot necessarily being upfront

(01:19:22):
and honest and truthful withwhat they were saying.
They were trying to play anangle mind game, whatever you
want to call it, and that's,that's what can come off when
you're not yourself.
Um is, you can come off thatway and so, um, yeah, you gotta,
you gotta be.
That doesn't mean you can'tchange and be better and develop
your skills as a coach andlearn new ways of doing things.
But like you gotta, you gottaact true to who you are.

Speaker 2 (01:19:44):
Yeah, oh, I'm so glad I asked that question.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Love that and I have.
I have another thing too that Ithink is relevant to this.
Sorry, I don't know if you'reright after that, but like I
think the same goes true as aplayer, you have to understand
who you are as a player, um, andI'll never forget that
conversation.
I had, uh, my year after I leftcoaching at cornell I went up.
They made the ecac finals up inlake placid, um, that next year
, and so I went up there to gowatch the game.
And I'll never forget the nightbefore I'm at the hotel and I
go down to eat in the hotel barand Scott Young who, if people

(01:20:21):
don't know, he's in the USHockey Hall of Fame played in
the Olympics kind of just areally good American player, and
at the time he was the directorof player development for the
Pittsburgh Penguins and we had akid that was drafted at the
Penguins on uh, on our team, sohe was there to kind of watch
him or whatever.
And uh, he was just kind ofsitting there eating, eating
dinner alone, and and so I wentup to him and I said hey, and we

(01:20:44):
just kind of sat there and justtalk, talky for about an hour
eating dinner and stuff.
And, uh, I remember one of thequestions I asked him.
I was like all right, so you'redirector of player development,
you're with the AHL team a lot,you're with the NHL team a lot.
Like what makes a guy stick?
You know, like what's thedifference between a guy that
comes up to the NHL and stays,you know, versus a one that kind

(01:21:05):
of keeps going up and down?
They can't quite figure it out.
And I'm expecting him to sayyou know commitment or hockey
sense or competitiveness,something to that effect.
And his answer blew me away.
But it was so just profound andhe was like you know what it is
.
It's, it's self-awareness.
I was like huh, what do youmean by that?
He's like, honestly, I thinkthe players that stick, they

(01:21:27):
know exactly who they are, theyknow what their strengths are,
they play to their strengths,they know exactly what their
role is.
That's on this team, they buyinto that and it's just an
unbelievable self-awareness thatthey have.
Most of the guys that go up anddown, they're trying to be
somebody that they're not.
You know, they think theyshould be a skilled guy, but
they're being asked to play athird line center role and they

(01:21:47):
play as a skilled guy, butthat's not what they need at the
top level or, you know, they'renot playing to their strengths.
You know in in some capacity.
And so when he saidself-awareness, it kind of it
kind of surprised me because Iwas thinking about all these
other things.
But man, does that make a lotof sense?
Does that make a lot of sense?
You know, and you've lived thatlife, and so I'll ask you, like
, do you think that that issomething that, from what you've

(01:22:10):
seen in your experience andbeing in that level and seeing
guys go up and down, and you,having done that yourself, like
would you say that that's prettyaccurate?

Speaker 2 (01:22:19):
that's wild.
Yeah, I mean, as you're saying,that I was thinking, you know,
because I was a guy that was upand down and then never stuck.
It's funny, because it'sactually been a recent topic in
our house, that my middle sonhas actually got into my own
career oh really, yeah like theycould have really given a shit
right for the most part.
But like recently they've beentalking about it, I guess
amongst their team and stuff,and you know like wait you

(01:22:41):
played in the world juniors,what, yeah, and what and what
happened, and what like, whatlike, what happened, like why,
why only 41 games?
So, like I, I could, like I'myou're totally speaking to to me
.
So I was like self-awareness,which is one of the things that
I think is an absolutecornerstone of what I'm trying
to get kids to understand tooright, their own personal
operating manual who are you,how do you do it, how do you do

(01:23:02):
it best?
Like those are really greatquestions to answer.
Uh, in my situation, probably,sure, like I think you, I think
I probably needed to know moreuh about who I was.
The who I was part, I think, isa bigger question for me, not
necessarily the player that Iwas.
Uh, I think that in a, in a, ina hockey locker room, me being

(01:23:28):
an introvert, naturally, like Ilove this conversation right now
, but if you put 17 other peoplein this room, I I probably
don't want to have it quite asmuch.
You know, like I, I like I likedeep one-on-one uh discussions.
So you go in a hockey lockerroom, I'm automatically a little
bit off from a natural setting,you know.
And then, and then I felt like Ihad to be some type of

(01:23:49):
personality, some type of actorin that environment.
So whether that showed up, youknow, outside of the game or in
the locker room, I felt thatthat was never really
comfortable, you know, at theNHL level.
So I think me having moreself-awareness in that
environment socially would havegiven me a much better chance to
maybe play some better hockeyon the ice.
So there's that angle.

(01:24:10):
The other thing I would saythat I'm all about
accountability.
For sure I there's, there's apersonal level of accountability
in everything.

Speaker 1 (01:24:22):
But I do wish that I had a clear message of what they
wanted from me when I gotcalled up too that was literally
the next thing that I was goingto say, because I know so many
players who've said the samething, particularly ahl nhl.
I wish they would have justtold me.
Yeah, you know, and that'sthat's a really good lesson for

(01:24:43):
coaches to have.
Like, you have to haveconsistent feedback with your
players and and I mean, I think,the best coaches if you ask a
player, particularly when theyget to the levels that you
played at, who their favoritecoaches were and why a lot of
them was, I always knew where Istood.
You know um, for the good orthe bad, you know I always knew

(01:25:07):
what was expected me and andwhat um where I stood.
And so I think that what youjust said is so important for
coaches to hear, um, because youprobably have a lot of guys
that you know too.
I have so many friends in thisgame that do say that too.
Like I wish I would have knownwhat the expectation was going
in um, I would have, I wouldhave played to it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
Yeah, well, and yeah, yeah, and, and and, cause I
mean, sometimes I was toocoachable, to be honest, like I
remember, like Mike, mike Murphy, at one point in my little
stint with with Toronto, when Ifirst got traded there, about
five games in or six games in,he pulled me aside in the Maple
Leaf gardens and he had this bigdiscussion with me about
playing better defense and thatI needed to be more responsible

(01:25:51):
defensively.
Now, first of all, was thattrue?
Like I was actually kind ofshocked a little bit at the time
, hearing that, you know, butthen, at the same time, this is
the NHL and if this is what theywant for me, then I better do
it, you know, and uh, but for me, being like, very literal, I
was on top of every puck, I wasalways on the defensive side of

(01:26:16):
whoever you know.
And then, so for me, was I inscoring positions?
Was I using my intuition ontransition, you know, was I
doing, using my naturalabilities, with my speed, to get
on the heels of defenders whenI, when, when that opportunity
was there, well, no, I wasn'tright.
So, and and and.
Then I wasn't producing ordidn't produce as much.
So was that?
Was he asking me to dosomething that he actually

(01:26:37):
wanted me to do, or did I not?
Did I over deliver on that tomy own detriment?
Potentially right like so.
There's so much nuance to thattoo.
Right of like what it is theywant yeah um, you know, and yeah
, I mean, if you put me in athird line role, I felt that I
was big and strong enough todefinitely go and crash bodies
and do that, like I was willingto do that.
If you put me up top and playme with Sadin and Clark, let me

(01:27:00):
know what role you want me toplay on that line, you know.
Do you want me to just go andcreate turnovers or do you want
me to be a guy that maybe he'sgoing to get the puck in the
slot and be able?
I was kind of somebody thatwanted a little bit more
information, whereas some guysdon't want that information too,
right?
So I think that it's.
It's tough when you're 20, 21years old or if you're in a
junior environment where there'sso much personalities involved

(01:27:22):
in it, right, like, how do youlearn?
What do you need to besuccessful?
That I think that's where thesemaster coaches come in is, like
they're really good atunderstanding that, right, that
somebody comes in.
He needs to know information.
He allow him the space to askquestions, give him honest
answers.
This guy's going to do better.
This guy needs to be left alone, right?
I'm just going to let him go.
He's going to do his thing.

(01:27:43):
The more information I give him, the more he slows down because
he now he starts thinking toomuch, right, like I do think
that there is a role to play.
So I mean to mean to backtrack.
Yes, there's personalaccountability on on the player,
100%.
You have to feel empowered andyou have to feel like it's your
path, but what you're surroundedby is definitely impactful.

Speaker 1 (01:28:02):
Yeah For sure.
Yeah, coaching is an art, not ascience, right?
Like you know, when you'redealing with people in any
capacity, it there's no manual,like everybody's different and
you got to figure that stuff outand you know the best, the best
coaches, they have a gift withunderstanding the nuances of
every player and and how that,you know, ties into the team

(01:28:24):
aspect of what you're trying todo.
Um, and a season going back tothe authenticity part like a
season would be really boring ifyou had 20, 25 of the same same
person, you know it would be areally boring season.
So, celebrating, you know, andI think it's changed from when
we were younger, you know it wasconformed to this, and now I

(01:28:45):
think a lot of what coaching hasbecome is hey, we want to
create an environment whereeverybody can be themselves.
You know, we want everybody tobe different.
We're going to celebrate thatstuff and we're going to need
your differences at differenttimes, um, but within the
confines of what we believe inas, uh, as a team yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:29:03):
I love that.
You mean from a from a skillstandpoint, right, like what do
you bring to the team from anactual hockey player standpoint?
And also, what do you bring tothe team from your human
standpoint?
What do you bring to thatlocker room sc human standpoint?
You know what do you bring tothat locker room?
Scott Nickel.
I had him on director of playerdevelopment, assistant GM with
the, with the predators Awesomeguy.
I had to play with him.
He was my captain in Detroit inthe IHL one year and we battled
against each other in the dublots and he had one of the best

(01:29:25):
lines ever that made me laugh.
He team, you know, and we'renot trying to find them either.
You know, like you, you needthose personality types as
you're saying.
You know you need, you needdifferences.
It allows that family, uh, togrow.
You know, I think you can learnfrom each other and it keeps
things fresh.
So, yeah, I mean I think that'sa great message from our podcast

(01:29:46):
for players out there.
I mean, just really find whoyou are, believe that what you
are is enough, emphasize yourstrengths, you know, provide
value to the team and, uh, anddon't try to be something else,
because it usually comes off asinauthentic and and, yes, there
is room to grow to your point.
I'm all about that.
But you find your home, youfind your roots and you, you
kind of go from there.
So well.

Speaker 1 (01:30:05):
Well, let me ask you this with the work that you do
because that word enough, I feellike, is a really hard one for
me and, I think, a lot of peoplewho are high achievers it can
always be better.
You know we're always trying tofind that edge.
We can always be the one tooutwork.
You know it's why we aresuccessful at the end of the day

(01:30:27):
, because we're not satisfied.
But that can lead to someproblems too.
Right, like there's a lot ofthose people, myself included.
You know I'll put myself on thetherapist couch right now.
Um, it's like I, it's for me,it's never enough, like there's
always something else that Icould be doing.
How do you kind of work withathletes that have that kind of

(01:30:47):
mentality where, like this is astrength of yours?
You know you always want to bebetter, you're always looking
for accountability.
You know you're going tooutwork that person next year,
no matter how hard they work.
But also like there's got to besome some space in there to
understand that you're enough.
You know and and and you're,you're good just the way you are

(01:31:08):
.
How do you, how do you, how doyou work with players from that
capacity?

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
Well, the enough part from a human standpoint if
that's where you're going, Ithink, is really important and I
think that you know someonelike yourself, a high achiever
hopefully they can look in themirror and see that what they're
doing, how they are operatingprocess oriented, you know,
committing to what they'rewilling to commit to, and how
they're you know they're drivingtheir own, their own lives, and

(01:31:37):
how they're driving that shipis really something to be proud
of.
You know, and allowing them tosee that Like that's something
that I try and emphasize withevery player that I work with is
to recognize the good thatthey're doing, that they are
offering.
The first question I askplayers all the time when I'm
working, at the start of ourcall brain.
The first question I askplayers all the time when I'm
working, at the start of ourcall, whether it's group or

(01:31:58):
otherwise, is what are you proudof?
Because when do we get askedthat question and when do we
allow ourselves those moments tocelebrate our own?

Speaker 1 (01:32:02):
success Never.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
Yeah, right, because we don't, and especially someone
like you or someone like me.
I'm not looking at that.
I've never given myself pats onthe back.
I'm looking for the next thing,right, the thing that I got to
do, the thing that I get betterat.
But it is good to allowyourself the place and and and
the and you know the time to say, hey, I did well here, you know
I did well here, I'm proud ofthis.

(01:32:23):
So so that's part of it.
Right Is recognizing the journey, recognizing the things that
you are doing, that you'reaccomplishing, where, where you
are providing value, like, thoseare really good questions,
right, like, and to be able toanswer those.
So so, hopefully, that comes toa spot where, hey, I am, I am
enough.
Yes, I want to be more, but Iam enough.

(01:32:43):
Inherently, I'm doing thingsthat are providing value and I'm
being a benefit and I can feelgood about that.
Um, the other thing is with,like, real high achievers and
honestly, I don't meet too manyof them, like david goggins type
of people, you know, like thatare really going too much, you
know, because I think that, likeI do believe in his philosophy
of like we're operating about 40, most of us and the ones that
are really high.
High achievers are probablymore like 60 65, you know, like

(01:33:07):
there's not many guys that arereally pushing the envelope, I
think, with how, how much youyou can do and places you can do
to get there.
So in the few exchanges that Ihave had with that, I always try
and position things in thelevels of competition.
I think that speaks to thepeople that I'm usually working
with.
We're usually reallycompetitive individuals,
naturally that see things ascompetition and I say lean into

(01:33:29):
where you're uncomfortable.
I know that you love using thatas well.
So if it's uncomfortable foryou, really uncomfortable for
you, to actually take a breakfor a day from training and go
fishing or go golfing or dowhatever, like that's your pain
point, like that's where thelesson for you lives, because
that's harder for you to do.
So find your space, find thatplace that you need to remove

(01:33:53):
yourself from, the, from theaction, and that's probably
where your greatest growth isgoing to be found.
So like I try and positionthose types of decisions, you
know that they're now going tomaybe step away, take a break,
take a breath, because they knowit's hard.

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
I love that.
That's great.
Yeah, it's uncomfortable totake a break every once in a
while, you know, but that'swhere.
That's where growth lies.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
I like that, yeah sometimes that's where it lies,
right.
So, anyways, we've uh I yeah,thanks, man.
Like a minute hour and 20, uh,fantastic stuff.
I know I know my, my, uh, mylisteners are going to really
find value and everything youhad to offer there.
I love how story driven you are.
There too, I I really that'sone thing.
I personally know that I thinkstories are awesome.
People can.
People can learn more.

(01:34:35):
Uh, you know, it's moreengaging that the storytelling
aspect.
So I love that you have so manygreat memories like that that
you're able to share a supercompelling.
So, yeah, man, thanks.
Uh, I'm sure our paths willcross again, but anything you
want to leave haven't been ableto touch on or talk about yet uh
, no, not really.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
I mean, just be the best version of you, you know I
uh don't compare yourself toothers.
Compare yourself to who youwere yesterday to get a little
bit better, to treat people alittle bit better.
Um, I, love that you know likewe live in a world where it's
very easy to compare ourselvesto other people, and what was
that saying?

(01:35:13):
I forget who it was like.
Comparison is a thief of joy,or something like that.
Some philosophers said that,but yeah, I, I appreciate the
time this was.
This was awesome.
It certainly didn't certainlydidn't feel like an hour and a
half and those are always thebest conversations, the one that
fly by.
Time flies when you're havingfun, so and you?

Speaker 2 (01:35:33):
know what.
I'm going to extend it evenmore, so already cut you off,
but I wanted to give us anopportunity to talk a little bit
.
The think tank.
So, like, what is?
What is the hockey think tank?
I know it's a podcast because Iwas on it, but like, what
service are you providing andhow can someone you know benefit
from what you're doing rightnow?
Who's?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
no, thanks.
Um, so we're we're, uh, anorganization that work with a
lot of youth hockeyorganizations all over North
America and we do everythingfrom helping to provide, you
know, kind of like structural,operational type things, codes
of conduct.
You know just better ways tooperate your organization too.

(01:36:09):
We do a lot of coachingeducation.
We actually do like a weeklycoaches call for every team that
works with us.
They can hop on a call everyTuesday and just talk some
hockey with everybody.
Um, we do a lot of parenteducation.
Um, I would say probably thebest feedback we get from
everyone that we work with everyclub is like the parent

(01:36:29):
education that we do, um, uh,just helping them to enjoy the
youth hockey journey with theirkids and give them a little bit
of a perspective on what thejourney potentially could look
like.
We do a lot of like.
We focus a lot with the playerson life skills, leadership and
life skills.
You know we try to equip thecoaches with the hockey stuff
and then try to equip the kidswith the life stuff, and so it's

(01:36:52):
been fun.
We've been doing it for about ayear and a half now and we have
16 organizations that we workwith at this point and, yeah,
you learn a lot you know fromcoming in as a college coach and
kind of understanding andasking a lot of questions and
learning about the youth hockeylandscape.
A lot of it honestly, frankly,is scary.
I don't really love where thegame's going at the youth levels

(01:37:13):
, um, in a lot of differentcapacities, um, but there's a
lot of really good people inhockey and to be able to give
back and share our knowledge andhelp some youth organizations
um operate and help their, theircoaches and players and parents
get better, um, it's been a lotof fun.
A lot of fun, to say the leastawesome.

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Yeah, applause for me .
That's great.
Uh, we need more, we more ofyou.
Uh, that's fantastic because Iagree, I mean it is going.
It's going a direction I don'treally like.
It's a game that you and I bothlove and are super passionate
about, and I think, in our ownway, we're trying to make that
experience better for everybody,you know, and pave the path
that more people can fall inlove with it and have and have
good experiences with it.

(01:37:54):
So, thanks for doing that.
That's hockey think tank, youguyscom.
Uh, again, the podcast isreally awesome.
It's very, you know,development focused.
I think if you like my podcast,you'll definitely like the
hockey think tank and, um, andyeah, lots of services there too
to uh that are offered.
So, topher, thanks again.
Man, you're a, you're a star,really appreciate the

(01:38:15):
conversation and I love whatyou're doing out there.

Speaker 1 (01:38:17):
You too, Jason.
Thanks a ton.

Speaker 2 (01:38:24):
Thank you so much for being here and listening to the
entire conversation with Topher.
He's easy to listen to.
I know, uh, I know I found himeasy to have a discussion with
and uh, lots of value in there.
Uh, topher, you can check himout at the uh hockey think tank
uh podcast.
All they're doing a lot ofgreat things over there him and
Jeff Lovecchio.

(01:38:45):
So, by all means, if you weredrawn to his message and what he
has to offer, and if you are ina capacity at an academy or an
association and you are lookingto make a difference with the
framework of your developmentand the way you set culture and
these types of things, then theHockey Think Tank is someplace
that you want to check out thereonline.
Topher is very active in thehockey community out on the East

(01:39:08):
Coast there, as well as Jeff,and doing a great job in
supporting the development ofathletes all over the region.
So thank you so much for beinghere again.
Please come back again nexttime.
We're trying to get an episodeout a week now.
It is challenging, but I amdoing my best, finding some
great guests and delivering alot of action-packed,

(01:39:32):
information-based programmingfor all you out there.
So awesome stuff.
Enjoy your holidays.
I hope you get some time torelax with your family, with
your friends, and just kick back, maybe away from a hockey rink.
Maybe it's an ODR type ofholiday where we don't have to
chase around practices anddevelopment ice and we can just

(01:39:52):
relax and be grateful for thosearound us and enjoy this holiday
season.
So until next time, play hardand keep your head up.

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EP.146 - Embracing Authentic Leadership and Personal Growth in Youth Hockey with Topher Scott

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP.146 - Embracing Authentic Leadership and Personal Growth in Youth Hockey with Topher Scott