April 25, 2023 • 62 mins
Javier Rivera of Stone River Nursery in Central Florida talks about the potential of grafting when creating multi-cultivar trees, fruit salad trees, and even trees that grow in places that you wouldn't expect them to - like apple trees in Florida!
The prize for today's show is ColourPoint Bypass Pro Pruners by Dramm valued at $28.62. The prize winner will be able to pick the vibrant colour of their choice!
The host of The Urban Forestry Radio Show and Podcast is Susan Poizner of the fruit tree care education website www.orchardpeople.com. Tune into The Urban Forestry Radio Show LIVE by going to RealityRadio101.com on the last Tuesday of every month at 1.00 pm Eastern Time.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:15):
Welcome to the Urban Forestry RadioShow here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.
In this radio show and podcast, welearn about fruit trees, permaculture,
arboriculture, and so much more.
So if you love trees and especiallyfruit trees, or if you're interested
in living a more sustainable life,then this is the place for you.
(00:38):
I'm your host, Susan Poiznerof the Fruit Tree Care training
website, orchard people.com.
Thanks for tuning in.
And enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry RadioShow with your host Susan Poizner.
(01:00):
To contact Susan Live right now, sendher an email in studio101@gbe.com,
and now right to your host of the UrbanForestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
Hi everyone.
When I started to grow fruit trees, Ihad no clue that each and every fruit
(01:26):
tree was made up of two separate trees.
The roots come from one tree andthey determine the size of the tree
when it's mature, and the upperpart of the tree is called the fruit
wood and it determines the type offruit that you are going to grow.
Now all you have to do is stick thosetwo parts together through a process
(01:48):
called grafting, and if it works, thosetwo trees fuse together just like magic.
What's amazing is that graftinglets you create trees with different
types of fruit, for instance, likean apple tree with 10 different
types of apples growing on it.
Or you can make a fruit saladtree that grows different types
(02:11):
of stone fruits on the same tree.
It's also possible to use grafting tocreate trees that can survive and grow in
places that you wouldn't expect them to.
Like growing apple trees inparts of Florida, who knows?
Maybe one day we can use graftingto create more resilient fruit trees
(02:33):
that can cope with a changing climate.
So today we are going to talk about thepotential of grafting with Javier Rivera.
For Javier grafting is a passion.
He's the owner of the Stone RiverFruit Tree nursery in central Florida.
And Javier is also pursuing hisPhD in Horticultural sciences
(02:55):
at the University of Florida.
And I'll talk to him in just a minute.
But first, I would love to hear fromyou, send in your questions, your
comments, or just an email to sayhello, and we will enter you into
today's contest to win a terrific prize.
This month's prize is Color PointBypass Pro Pruners by Duran.
(03:19):
They're valued at $28 and 62 cents,and these lovely pruners come in six
vibrant colors, and the winner ofthis month's contest will be able
to choose the color of their choice.
So do you wanna win those hand pruners?
Then enter today's contest by sending anemail right now to intu 1 0 1 gmail.com.
(03:43):
That's in studio101@gmail.com.
And do remember to include your firstname and where you're writing from.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
So now, Javier, welcome to the show today.
Thank you very much,Susan, for inviting me.
It is wonderful to have you.
(04:03):
And in the introduction I mentionedthat we can, that you're working
to graft apple trees that willsurvive and thrive in Florida.
But tell me a little bit aboutwhere you're located in Florida.
What's the plant hardiness zone and whattypes of fruit will easily grow there?
Okay, so I live in the most southernpart of the city of Orlando in Orange
(04:29):
County in central Florida, and we areclassified as U S D A zone nine B.
So this area is famous for citrus.
A lot of people that come from differentparts of the Caribbean will also
incorporate plants like mangoes andavocados, some tropicals that due to
(04:53):
our mild winters can actually grow verywell and produce fruit year after year.
Ah-huh.
So here you are in an area wherecitrus grows nicely and you
are trying to grow apple trees.
Now apple trees, are there somecultivars that will grow in your zone?
(05:15):
Oh, absolutely.
The information that is provided bymost agricultural extensions in our area
recommend a few cultivars such as Annaand Dorsett Golden, maybe Ein Shimmer.
There's a recent release by theUniversity of Florida with Texas NI
(05:36):
a and m that is called Tropic Suite.
That's another one thatdoes well in our area.
And there are a fewothers, but not very many.
And the main reason for that is becausepart of that information tells us that
due to our mild winter climate, we don'tget a lot of what's known as chill hours.
(05:57):
And they are different models thatclassify what a chill hour is.
But Simply speaking, the number ofhours before 45 degrees Fahrenheit that
occurred during the coldest months ofthe year or during the later part of
the fall season into winter season.
(06:18):
So here in Orlando, at best, forthe past few years, we've gotten an
average of about a hundred to about125 chill hours, which is very mild.
So cultivars that require manymore chill hours than that are not
(06:38):
even considered by most people.
Unless you want to do something different.
Okay.
Sorry, I'm just gonnago back for a second.
You guys have, let's say 150, yousaid 150 chill hours, hundred 50 cold
days, and these apple trees need somecold days in order to what, to produce
fruit in order to be consistent.
(07:01):
What is it about these cold chill hoursthat allow you to grow apple trees?
Will the apple trees die ifthey don't get enough cold?
What is, what are the ramifications?
Yeah, so the main information that weget is that if a tree does not receive
enough chill hours during the winterseason, it may not survive as it tries to
(07:23):
cope with the changes in the conditions.
During the daytime, whereas we go intospring, it didn't receive enough energy
for it to go ahead and blossom or produceleaves at a certain time of the year.
However, one of the things that I havediscovered recently and ins inspired
(07:45):
by different people, folks like TomSpellman of Dave Wilson nursery out
in California, Kevin Houser of KaelCreek Capital Nursery my spouse, who
is a Michigander and she has knownapples, for pretty much all of her life.
Why don't we actually try to growcertain apple varieties besides what we
(08:09):
know besides Deanna, the Dorson Golden.
Let's go ahead and stick 'em atthe ground and see what happens.
And doing a little bit of research aboutroot stocks that would be able to survive
the conditions that we have in our area.
We have discovered that manyvarieties that come from different
places all over the world.
We're talking about France, we'retalking about England, we're talking
(08:32):
about the Northern United States.
They have been not only growing well,but they have been producing fruit.
And I'm like, wait a minute, butr and these apples from these
places, they get thousands of chillhours, or they're supposed to get
thousands of chill hours and they'regrowing here just fine with 150.
(08:56):
So what is really going on?
And of course there isa method to the madness.
So there are cultural practicesthat are applied in order to ensure
that the trees are managing withthat small number of chill hours.
One of the things that is done in,not just by me but in different parts
(09:20):
of the world, in the tropics placeslike Uganda, Rwanda, and Central
Africa, is that there's a time of theyear when the trees get defoliated.
So by defoliating the trees.
You are sending a signal to the buds.
Don't count cold hours in order to getprepared for when you have to go and
(09:46):
wake up and produce leaves and balloons.
So we're just gonna let youlike rest for a little bit.
And then when the next season comeson, when winter is going away, days
are getting longer, temperaturesare getting warmer, those are gonna
be the signals you're gonna payattention to and that's what you're
(10:07):
gonna use as your guide to awaken.
So interesting.
So I just wanna clarify.
You're saying like how do youcommunicate to the tree to say, Hey
tree, by the way, listen, don't countchill hours, just hang in there.
Listen to me.
How can you communicate tothe fruit tree to tell it?
I know you're used to having lots of chillhours, but don't worry about this here.
(10:29):
We don't need to offer that to you.
So it's a process that, believe it or not,doesn't really begin in wintertime alone.
It starts getting ready in late summer.
So dormancy, those folks know, ohyeah, that's when it's wintertime
and the trees are sleeping.
There's actually differentstages to dormancy.
During the summertime.
(10:50):
You have the para dormancy in whichbuds under a certain level of the
tree are basically not growing out.
So they're not producing leaves.
They're just like staying put.
And then when the temperatures aregetting colder, the trees enter into
a stage that's known as endo dormancy.
The endo dormancy is the critical partbecause once the trees get into that
(11:14):
stage, the bugs are gonna start countingcold and they say, you know what?
I'm not gonna awaken untilI get the cold that I need.
So if we can skip that process,if we are able to reprogram.
Those buds into don't follow theendo dormancy, you're gonna be okay.
Then we can get them to produce evenif you have areas where there is not
(11:38):
enough winter chill according to theinformation that we got as of today.
So we are trying to change the paradigmon how these apples are grown simply
by doing those cultural practices thatallow us to let the trees manage in the
(11:59):
different climates, which they are grown.
That's incredible.
Let's just have a look here at an e.
We've got one email here from Greg.
Hello, Susan.
I was waiting for this show today.
Thanks.
Listening to you fromSan Diego, California.
So thank you so much for rating in Greg.
Okay, so you, this iswhat you're working on.
(12:20):
How are you using grafting inorder to achieve the that goal?
Yes.
I was very fortunate to finda series of rootstocks that
works well for me in my area.
And those are the rootstocksfrom the Geneva series they
developed by Cornell and Dr.
Jim Cummins.
(12:41):
So I use the Polish three root stocksof that series, which are Geneva 9 69,
Geneva two 10, and Geneva eight 90.
And of course, Genevaeight 90 is my favorite.
Because they are able to tolerate theexcessive rains that we get during silver.
(13:02):
So when you plant a tree, you don'twant a tree that will die when
it's not able to be plant like.
It's not able to drainwater away properly.
Of course, trees need to breathe.
So if you're putting the rootsin an area that doesn't drain
well the tree is gonna die.
And there are root stocksthat will absolutely.
Go and die if that's the case.
(13:23):
But with the Geneva Series, theyare tolerant to water logging,
so that's one big advantage.
Another one is that theyare disease resistant.
So there are many Pests and diseasesthat will leave those trees alone
simply by the rootstock thatyou're grafting your trees onto.
(13:44):
So you're not gonna have to worryabout Willy apple afis with the tallest
three trees of the Geneva Series.
You don't have to worry about phyto forroot rod, so you don't have to worry
about a colds spell That will come outof nowhere and oh my God, it's going
to die because it's gonna get too cold.
No, no worries at all.
(14:05):
So it's just a fantastic series ofrootstocks and for the most part, those
are the ones that, that I use for mypersonal collection as well as for
part of the project that we're doingas part of my doctoral dissertation.
And then lastly, when you are plantinga tree, whether it's from a seed or even
(14:27):
grafted in a seedling, there's gonnabe a long wait time before that tree.
Passes the ity period and is ableto be reproductive competent.
But when you're grafting it onto thoseroot stocks, the average turnaround
for fruit production is two to threeyears, sometimes the very next year
(14:48):
after you graft them, dependingon the variety and the conditions
where the tree is growing it.
So for me, that is a time saver because ifI want to evaluate something, let me know,
graft it on a ceiling that's gonna takepossibly eight to 10 years, let me graft
it here, and then you can get a quickerresponse time and see how it manages.
(15:09):
So there are many advantages toknowing what the root stock will do
in your area and which is the onethat's right for your situation.
Which I think is interesting becauselet's say I, live in Florida and I order
my fruit tree from a big, Nat nationalnursery and maybe I don't even know
(15:30):
what rootstock they've planted it on.
So they send me any oil.
Maybe it's a dwarfingtree, so a smaller tree.
If I don't know what the rootstock is,it really may not thrive and it may
not produce fruit in that warm climate.
So that's very interesting howimportant it is to have control and to
know what rootstock you're choosing.
(15:52):
On the other hand, from theexperimenting that you have done, does
it matter which cultivars you choose?
You said that possibly in Florida youcan grow cultivars that need hundreds of
chill hours rather than a hundred or 150.
Are there some cultivars that arejust stubborn and won't go for it
(16:14):
and others that are more flexible?
Absolutely every cultivar will haveits own flexibility, so to speak.
So there are cultivars thatwill be better adapted.
For example, we're talking about GoldRush, which is a release from the P R I
program, and many people think it needs800 to about a thousand chill hours.
(16:39):
It does very well here.
And many people tell me, what, here's thething, you're getting a Scion sent from
a nursery, and that Scion is dormant.
You're gonna graft it, it's gonnawake up, it'll give you fruit
that one year, and that's it.
That was a fluke.
And it's just okay, it's possible.
But then what happens is the next yearcomes about, and that same scion that you
(17:02):
grafted sprouts again and starts givingyou flowers and it can give you fruit.
So that's not a fluke, that's just thatthe cultivar was able to become adapted.
To the conditions where it's growing.
And it does that with themotivation of the rootstock as well.
There, there are physiological situationsthat are coming in play and, they, we
(17:31):
can definitely go down a rabbit holeand talk about those, but because we
have limited time the idea is that therootstock is a propeller and then the
scion is going to have an adaptabilitybased on what that rootstock is doing
and how you're doing the horticulturalpractices to make sure that it thrives and
(17:51):
produces in the environment that it's in.
Fantastic explanationand you make it so clear.
I really appreciate that.
We have an email here from Tom.
Tom says, Susan, I lovethe term chill hours.
My teenage son is here and heheard this coming from your show
and he thought, Ooh, this is cool.
I can chill out and not do any work wrong.
(18:13):
I live in Dallas, Texas,so yeah, chilling.
The chill hours, yeah, I guessthe tree chills out a little bit.
It's not doing a lotbut it's very important.
Now you talk about thehorticultural practices.
So again, let's say in my situation,let's say I lived in Florida and I think,
okay, I'm gonna graph myself a tree,going to take those recommendations.
(18:36):
I know which root stocks to choose.
I am gonna choose the cultivar.
What are the fancy horticultural practicesthat I then need to do in order to
encourage my tree to grow in a climatethat it wouldn't ordinarily be growing in?
That's an excellent question and it canbe a little bit complicated to address.
(18:59):
Now, folks that have been tinkeringwith crops like apples for example,
they have discovered, as I mentioned alittle bit ago, that defoliation is a
process that will tell the tree, let'sgo ahead and override these signals
in which you require this amount ofcoal to wake up and produce fruit.
(19:20):
So by doing that, the tree getsredirected or reprogrammed to produce.
That's one way.
Sometimes folks use water stressin order to make the trees produce.
For example, if there's a period of timewhere the trees are not getting any water,
that will send a signal to the tree that,Hey, I'm running low on these resources.
(19:41):
Better go ahead and producemy fruits right now.
That's something that happens as welltreatments with GI giin or GI acid,
that's another way in which trees canbe triggered into fruit production.
So they are different ways and it,there, there isn't really like a
(20:03):
manual for every single variety.
So you have to discoverwhat works and what doesn't.
Sometimes by trial and error, that'swhat researchers are constantly doing.
We're trying as scientists tofigure out, Hey, we're doing this.
What are gonna be the consequences?
What do we observe?
And based on that constant applicationof scientific concepts, we are
(20:26):
able to determine what will beuseful for a particular location.
I wanna clarify, just when youtalk about defoliation, that is
the natural process of all thenutrients coming out of the leaves.
The leaves go brown as those greenlovely nutrients go into the root system,
and then the leaves just fall off.
(20:47):
Is that what you are talking about?
Or are you talking about go pulloff the leaves from your trees
and it'll give the tree a signal?
It can be in either way.
So sometimes the affiliationhappens by applying a chemical
and basically the trees are shakenoff and then the leaves fall.
Sometimes you can just goahead and do it manually.
(21:07):
So I'll just go before a cold spell inthe latter part of the year, and I will go
ahead and manually defoliate my own trees.
And the reason I can do thatis because I grow my trees so I
can reach them from the ground.
So all of my trees are sometime probablyaround Eight feet tall at most, so
(21:29):
I can reach them from the ground.
And even though Geneva eight 90 isa rootstock that if you set it and
forget it, it's gonna produce a treesomewhere between 15 to 20 feet tall.
I can always control the sizeof the tree myself by pruning.
So that's one of the things that, assomeone who promotes the philosophy
(21:49):
of backyard or culture, we cando that in order to make it more
manageable for the home garden.
Incredible.
Okay, so if you are actually goingto defoliate your tree and pull off
all those leaves, do you wanna makesure that they are not green anymore?
Because if you're pulling off greenleaves, you're pulling off nutrition
that the tree actually needs to stashaway its roots over the colder season.
(22:14):
What's interesting is that sometimes,depending on the use of the nitrates that
are still found in the ground, it can belater in the season or later in the year,
and the trees will not wanna change color.
They will stay, still, stay green.
We'll still do it that wayjust to make sure that we can
trigger the signal on the trees.
(22:36):
Gotcha.
Okay.
We've got an email from Tina.
Tina writes Susan Does Mr.
Rivera have a website?
Do you?
We currently don't have a website,but we do have a Facebook page.
For the small operation that we run,that's called Stone River Nursery.
So you can find that on Facebook andyou can also find those on Instagram.
(23:00):
So the Instagram page is a littlebit more active as of the time.
My spouse, who is my better half, isthe one that does all the updates, and
she takes videos of the fruits thatwe are growing and make sure that we
can have chronological progressionof what's happening in our yard.
And it's incredible.
Sometimes when you see the pictures likefrom one year ago to where we're at right
(23:23):
now, the changes are just incredible.
And I am so happy that we are ableto put that in a perspective for
different people because if we are ableto do it, then so can everybody else.
So there's nothing reallyhard science that we're doing.
We're just applying some practices thatare scientifically based, but they're also
(23:46):
common sense and everybody can get themdone if they know where to go and just
to follow the guidance on how to do it.
That's great.
Okay.
Thank you for the question.
That was fantastic.
Now, I know another passion ofyours is creating multi fru trees.
So that's about kickingit up a notch here.
(24:07):
So here you are creating, usinggrafting to create fruit trees that
can grow outside a climate zone thatyou, that we think we can grow them.
I want to talk about fruit variety.
Trees.
Trees where you can grow, I don'tknow, apricots and plums and
cherries all on the same tree.
(24:28):
I'd love to do that afterthe commercial break.
Can you hold on theline just for a minute?
Absolutely Susan.
Okay, so that's what we're gonna do.
We are gonna dive into multifruit trees in just a minute.
But in the meantime, you are listening tothe Urban Forestry Radio Show and podcast,
brought to you by the Fruit Tree Caretraining website, orchard people.com.
(24:51):
This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, andI'm Susan Poizner, author of the
Fruit Tree Care Books, growing UrbanOrchards and Grow Fruit Trees Fast and
we'll be back right after the break.
(25:23):
Hi, I'm Susan Poiznerfrom Orchard people.com.
And I'm Steph Roth from SilverCreek Nursery in Ontario.
Join us for an interactive online workshopcalled Fruit Tree Grafting for anyone.
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(25:45):
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We'll see you in class.
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(29:15):
Welcome back to the Urban ForestryRadio Show with your host Susan Poizner,
right here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.
To get on board rightnow, send us an email.
Our email address isin studio101@gmail.com.
(29:45):
And now right back to your host of theUrban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
Hi, there you are listening tothe Urban Forestry Radio Show
and podcast brought to you by theFruit Tree Care Training website.
Orchard people.com.
This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, andI'm your host, Susan Poisoner.
(30:08):
In the show, we've been talking aboutthe potential of fruit tree grafting,
and in the first part of the show wetalked about grafting apple trees that
can survive and thrive in Florida.
But one of the most exciting types ofgrafting projects that we can do is
creating a fruit tree that can producemultiple different kinds of fruits.
(30:32):
So for instance, on one tree you mighthave peaches and apricots and plums
all growing together on a single tree.
So how do you do that?
We'll find out with my guest todayhave your Rivera owner of Stone River
Nursery in central Florida, who isalso pursuing his PhD in Horticultural
(30:53):
Sciences at the University of Florida.
And by the way, anyone canlearn to graph fruit trees.
You can learn how in my new onlinecourse Fruit Tree Grafting for
Everyone, which you can find onmy website@orchardpeople.com.
But before we continue chattingtoday, I want to hear from you.
(31:15):
If you're listening to this show live,why not enter today's contest and you
can win this month's amazing prize.
It is color by Color Pointbypass Pro pruners by dram.
They're valued at $28 and 62 cents, andthe pruners come in six vibrant colors.
The winner of this month's contest will beable to choose the color of their choice.
(31:39):
So why not enter the contest right now?
Just send us an email.
Send the email to intu 1 0 1gmail.com and include your question,
a comment, or just email us to say hi.
Be sure to include your first nameand where you're writing from.
So now back to Javier.
(31:59):
Are you still with me?
I'm still here with you.
That's great.
Okay, so next let's talk aboutcreating malf fruit trees with various
different types of fruit on one tree.
Can you tell me a story?
When did you start doing this stuff?
Wow.
So I guess my first experiencegetting the idea of what it would be
(32:21):
like was back in 2 20 14 when I gotmy very first orchard established.
And that time it was only stone fruits anddifferent types of stone fruit hybrids.
As time went on, and I noticed that eventhough I got flowers from these different
trees, I noticed that many of thoseflowers that were supposed to produce
(32:45):
because the trees were considered selffruitful, really didn't, and they needed
a pollination partner in order to produce.
Some of them, whether they're consideredself fruitful or not, will always do
better when you have a pollinator, apollinating variety, a colonizer, and
I think, wait a minute some folks have.
(33:08):
Multiple varieties offruit in a single tree.
And they have the multi grafted ones orthe fruit cocktails or the fruit salads.
There's different names forthem, so why can't we do this?
And of course, one impediment iswhether the variety that you want to
put on the tree is patented or not.
(33:31):
So we wanna respect the industry.
We wanna make sure that we are notpropagating varieties that are patented
cuz otherwise that would be infringement.
And we wanna make sure that thefolks that spend the time developing
those varieties have the respect,have the income for the royalties
that they get from those patents.
So I don't do that, but anymaterial that the patent has
(33:53):
already expired or that is a varietythat has been for many years ago.
Heirlooms, all of those are fair game.
When I moved from my firstproperty where I established
the orchard, I had to sell it.
And then I bought my next property.
We started from scratch and I wasgonna start with stone fruits again.
(34:16):
But then my wife said, you know whatis one thing that we may want to do
that a lot of people aren't doing?
And we have tinkered with applesbefore we've and that was something
that we started doing monthsbefore we left the other property.
So my wife suggested, whynot do it with apples?
And for the most part, because thatwould be something more exclusive.
(34:39):
Not a lot of people are doingit and being smarter than me.
I was just like, okay, fine.
I will just go ahead and do it.
And that's how we started our ownApple orchard slash investigation
slash research into everythingthat we have developed into today.
So when I grafted multiple.
(35:03):
Varieties into one tree.
I wanted to make sure that I hadpollinating varieties or varieties that
when they wake up around the same time.
So when the bees visit the trees,they can go from one flower type
to another flower type, and thenthe pollen can be exchanged.
That in principle soundsvery straightforward.
(35:26):
For some reason, my experience hasbeen that the bees don't like to visit
those flowers, so I become the bee.
So I will take a small stemc cellbrush and then when I know that they
are flowers from different trees thatare coming on, I will go ahead and
move the pollen around and it works.
(35:48):
So it is it ideal?
No, but it's a way that we can have alittle bit of backup just in case that
you don't have the pollen exchange thatyou would require for having fruit.
So let's, so we're starting offwith apples and you're creating,
you're putting on these differentcultivars of apples on one tree.
You're thinking, thebees aren't cooperating.
(36:09):
So you go around with a paintbrush,you dust the little open flowers
and you're moving the sort of thepollen from one flower to the next.
Absolutely.
So that's when you are doingmulti grafted apple trees.
What about stone fruit trees whereyou have many different types of
stone fruits that wouldn't evencross pollinate with each other?
(36:30):
Like you can't, you can have one treewith plums and apricots on it, but those
plums and apricots won't cross pollinate.
It's interesting that you say thatbecause zer Genetics, which is a
company out in California I thinkthat they are located in Modesto.
(36:50):
They have created different hybrids ofstone fruits by crossing the pollen,
say from an apricot into a plum.
And then they can get eitheran apron, they can get a plum
Cot, they can get a flu o.
And depends on the percentagesof the fruit resembling
either one of the parents.
(37:11):
So if it's more apricotthan plum, it's an apron.
If it's about the same,it will be a plum cot.
If it's more of theplum, it will be alu, ot.
It doesn't always happen, but that'swhat they're dedicated into doing.
They're trying to find the bestattributes from different types of fruits.
And then those pollen crosses createnatural hybrids that will enhance
(37:35):
the fruit content of the crops.
And then they will have differenttypes of flavor profiles.
And I have tasted some of them.
They are amazing.
So it's really great.
That sounds great.
And so if you have like this, oneof these crosses in your orchard,
It will the pollen from like the,a apron or whatever the, a plum.
(37:59):
Apricot plum can possibly crosspollinatewith your apricot cultivars.
Yes.
Or with your plum cultivars.
Oh, boy.
Yes.
That's amazing.
Yep.
Okay.
We have an interestingquestion here from Spencer.
I'm listening from Kaysville, utUtah, I would like to know what
recommended combos are for multigrafted horizontal cordon trees.
(38:24):
I would like to graft one row ofapple cultivar and then another row
of a complimentary apple cultivarthat will grow at the same rate.
As my first row, my horizontal cordontrees will have three or four horizontal
rows, and I'm interested in having onecultivar on the odd number horizontal
(38:45):
rows and a different cultivar on theeven numbered horizontal roads, any
perfect combos, so that even an oddrose looks similar in growth rate.
Thanks, Spencer.
Wow.
So basically Spencer is doingsome beautiful, interesting bolier
growing his fruit trees up a flattwo dimensionally against a fence.
(39:09):
He wants to intermesh these two varieties,but he wants them to blossom at the
same time and grow at the same rate.
Any suggestions?
Okay L aside from the somewhatcomplicated schematics one thing
that I could recommend is to makesure that you become informed of the
(39:31):
varieties that grow in your area.
Because since you live in Utah and youwill get the cold, there's more likely
records by the county extensions promotedby the universities that provide the
information to the rest of the state onwhat cultivars grow at the same time.
So if you have like differentones, that's how you want to do.
(39:54):
In order to ensure that they have thesame growth, they have to be planted in
an area where they're gonna receive equalamounts of sunlight, that the ground is
gonna have the same type of composition,and that the root stock that you're
using to propagate them is the same.
So the more equal you can createthe conditions for those cultivars.
(40:17):
The uniformity that you can provide,then it's gonna work better for
the plants that you have laid outin your question, saying, that's
a great answer, saying that.
However, I know that in our orchard wehave, for instance, liberty apple, oh my
gosh, that thing is so vigorous and growsso quickly compared to, a rusted apple
(40:38):
tree that we have that is just, you couldsit there and watch it for a hundred years
and you'd see maybe an inch of growth.
So I guess you're right.
It's really about the research, butI love how you say the most important
thing is to find out what thrives inyour community that is so important.
Got a couple of otherquick questions here.
One is from John from Toronto.
(41:00):
John says, hi Susan.
It's John just joined in listeningregarding triggering blooming.
Has our host ever triggeredblooming by scoring the trunk?
Of course, I have to ask.
I have not done it that way, so I'dprobably be afraid of doing that.
But that is somethingthat is applied in order.
(41:22):
It's one of the practices thatsometimes gets applied in order to
encourage production from fruit trees.
I haven't per, I haven'tpersonally done it.
The management that I provide issimply defoliation at the specific
time of the year, and also providingnutrition that's going to encourage
(41:43):
fruit production and root stability.
So when I use a fertilizer at ufs, afertilizer that's slightly lower in
nitrogen compared to phosphorus andpotassium, because the phosphorus
and potassium will trigger or helpwith the production of flowers
rather than vegetative growth.
So if I get more vegetative growth,I'm not getting as many flowers.
(42:05):
There's a competition.
Be between the resources of the tree.
What are we gonna use forVegeta vegetative growth?
What are we gonna usefor fruit production?
What are we gonna use asresearch for the next year?
So this pie of sorts, it's getting splitinto different parts, but I wanted more
dedicated to one particular mission.
(42:26):
And if it's gonna be for flowering andfruit production, then I'm gonna feed
according to what I want the tree to do.
If I want the tree to growbig, go with nitrogen.
If you want the tree to stay small, butbe a little bit more productive, switch
gears on the nitrogen and go a littlebit more on phosphorus and potassium.
That's again, a great answer becauseI know John has been struggling with
(42:48):
his tree that just doesn't flower.
It's a tree, it's an heirloom,and he's just so frustrated.
So maybe he's using toomuch nitrogen, who knows?
It's awesome.
So John, yeah, I'm sure you'll getback to us about that at some point.
We've got an email fromDawn from Michigan.
Hi Susan.
Great subject today, backyardOrchard culture and multi
graph trees are my favorites.
(43:09):
Thank you, Dawn.
Okay.
Oh, and we have another email here.
Oh, also from John, we're hearingback again from John in Toronto.
I, Susan, as your guest ever successfullyhand pollinated an apple Triplo.
Any advice?
Yeah, so it, it's a great questionand yes, because I have a few
(43:34):
trips in my collection of apples.
Probably the most The most productiveone of them is Bramley Seedling, which
is an apple variety from England.
If you ask any English person,which is the pie apple that you
want to use, is gonna be bramleys abeautiful tree, and it is a triploid.
(43:57):
So what happens is thatit's pollen sterile.
So the pollen due to the number ofchromosomes that it has, is not able
to pollinate itself and it's notable to pollinate other varieties.
So you'll need pollen from a deployedvariety, and that's probably where the
majority of the apple trees are at.
(44:18):
So you'll take the pollen safe from aCoxs orange Pippen, or see granny Smith.
You can take it from Gold Rush, anyvariety that is deployed, and then you
can pollinate the flowers of the Brandley.
It will produce fruit andcurrently we were successful.
(44:38):
It's just starting to wake up froma few weeks ago and we have a few
fruit clusters already in development.
Oh, fantastic.
So back to, we were talking about multigraft trees and we were talking about
stone fruit trees, and I know thatyou do multi graph stone fruit trees.
What types, what type of root stock works,works best for that purpose in order to
(45:03):
accommodate different types of fruit?
Okay, so in the industry, the one thathappens to be used the most is nemaguard.
So nemaguard is a peach seedlingbecause peach has great compatibility
with the majority of the stone fruits.
It's compatible with itself, is compatiblewith nectarine, plums and apricots.
(45:25):
So it, it's very commonly usedfor multiple grafted trees.
With my situation, it's.
Problematic because both properties thatI acquire here in the state of Florida,
they don't have the sandy soil that isso famous in most of the households.
(45:45):
I have soil that is compacted thatwhen it rains in the summertime,
it's always soupy, it's always wet.
Petros do not like wet feet.
They will not toleratethe excessive rainwater.
So if I do have something on nemaguard,which absolutely I must have, I
(46:06):
will plant it in a raised bed.
But to go to the question, what do Iuse because I have soil that is wet, the
plum rootstocks are more adaptable tobe planted in areas where the soil stays
moist for a prolonged period of time.
Things like my Roblan 29 C Mariana 26 24.
(46:31):
But then they don't have thecompatibility with say, like a peach
or an nectarine that you would like.
So there is one solution.
There is a root stop thatis known as citation.
It was developed in Californiaprobably more than 20, 30 years ago.
The patent on it expired already.
(46:51):
And for plums and apricots, it'sgood on its own, but for peaches
and nectarines, if it rains, it issusceptible to transmitting viruses
and then the tr the case quickly.
Otherwise, it's a fantastic rootstock.
So if you live in an area where it'snot gonna be constantly moist by rain,
(47:14):
so the irrigation can be there, itlikes the irrigation, but it doesn't
like the water when it remains inthe soil for a long period of time.
So maybe we can take a cutting ofthat citation, connect it with.
The plum rootstock, and it canbe connected because citation
is a plum peach hybrid.
(47:35):
So there is plum in thegenetics of the citation.
And then once that connection occurs,you can graft a peach or nectarine
on top of the citation bridge, andthat's what's known as an inter stem.
And then you are able to create atree that has the plum root stock
(47:56):
that is resistant to the soil, and ithas the adaptability to connect with
the citation as part of that bridge.
So the citation.
Will impart properties that are positivewithout having to mess with the roots.
So it will make it to have bigger fruit.
It will increase the sugar contentand it will be compatible with
(48:17):
the peach and the nectarine.
So that is magical.
Okay.
That's incredible.
So essentially with thisinterest stem, we are having
more than one graft on the tree.
It gives you the flexibility.
My question is, let's say I wantto create a tree using that system
with an interstem that has fivedifferent types of fruit on it.
(48:39):
Do I, do you know, this springor whatever, do I do all
seven grafts at the same time?
I'm like, okay, I'm gonnaassemble a fruit tree.
I've got my root stock, and then I'm gonnagraft on the inter interstem and then
I think I'll graft on something else,the my rebellion, and then I'm gonna
graft on five different types of fruit.
Can you assemble a treeall in one shot like that?
(48:59):
Or is this a multi-year projectthat you let each graft take?
See what happens, let it grow andthen continue grafting onto it.
I think that if you're trying to usethe inner stem to do multiple graphs
at the same time, it'll take you twoyears because the first year you're
(49:22):
going to graft the inter stem as ifit was just a regular scion, and then
you're gonna let that inter interststem grow and develop branches.
So those branches are gonna developfor a full year, and then when the
next winter comes, then you're goingto select the branches that you want
to keep, and then you can graph scienceonto those branches in order to create
(49:45):
the multicrafted tree that you desired.
And they are greatadvantages in doing that.
For example, for folks that areshort on space, having multiple
varieties in one single tree, it'sgoing to solve problems of spacing.
It's also gonna give you.
An extended harvest or what's knownas successive ripening because you're
(50:07):
gonna have things that are gonna beready at different times of the year.
So instead of getting fruit two to threeweeks at a time, and then that's it.
You can have a tree that can giveyou fruit possibly for months.
So it's great.
You're gonna have different varietiesor different types of fruits.
So you can have apricot, you canhave nectarine, you can have peach,
(50:29):
you can have plum, you can have poutall in one tree, which is fantastic.
So it's conversation maker of sorts.
So there are many advantages, butthere's also things to watch out
for when you have multiple graftedtrees, just like with everything.
And when you mention the situationwith the liberty, which grows like
(50:53):
a weed, and then you have the otherapple that grows very little when you
have multiple grafts in the same tree.
One or a few varieties will wantto take over the tree and then
they will shade out the rest.
So when they are growing more vigorouslythan the others, is your job to prune
them accordingly, to keep them incheck with the rest of the varieties.
(51:16):
So there isn't really like adomination or an overtake of one
variety compared to the rest.
However, in reality, there are timeswhen you buy a multiple grafted
tree, say from a nursery or froma maor place, that when it arrives
it will have a few thick branches.
(51:37):
And then a couple of themwill be like CUNY or thin.
And if that is the case, when you'replanting your tree in the ground, you want
to orient the tree with the section thathas the smaller or the punier branches
facing the south or the southwest.
And the reason you do that isbecause you want them to catch up.
(51:59):
And facing in that orientation willallow them to receive the maximum
solar exposure, so they will getthose nutrients, and then eventually
they will catch up to the othervarieties that are more vigorous.
So those are important thingsto watch out for when dealing
with multiple grafted trees.
Something that I'd love to add becauseI have a little bit of a pet peeve
(52:22):
for purchased multi graft trees.
What I find is that they're really notdesigned for people to graft the nut
graft to prune these trees correctly.
So if you know how, if you know havesome skills in fruit tree grafting, you
will be able to choose a better treeor better yet, graft your own tree.
Fruit tree grafting is incrediblyimportant to keep your tree
(52:44):
healthy and productive.
But if you don't know how to do it, youmay get a tree and you're like, oh my
gosh, how do I prune this now so peoplecan learn Grafting it orchard people.com.
I've got courses on itand articles and stuff.
We have a few quick emails will go throughcuz believe it or not, we're coming up
to the end of the show, so let's see.
I know it's crazy.
I know.
It's crazy.
It happens just like that.
(53:05):
You're so interesting.
That's why.
Okay.
Okay, so Hi Susan and Javier.
I am so impressed by this concept.
I'm sorry if I missed this atthe beginning, but how did Javier
get into this research and work?
And this is thanks from Olivia and yourfriends from Fort Ha Spirits in Brooklyn.
Okay.
So quick, how did you get into this?
(53:29):
Just watching videos and justseeing, wow, I, I wanna have
what they are doing right there.
So I'll just learn and just watch a fewthings, get, some material where you
can practice and practice makes perfect.
Protect yourself at all times.
Grafting knives are sharp, so havingan instrument like, like a cutout
(53:53):
board where if you're doing insertionsor where you're doing the cut on a
rootstock so that your hae is protectedin case that your knife slips.
That's really important.
Make sure that you're gettingthe right instruments.
Sometimes you can get by withwhat you have at your house, but
there's a reason why materials arespecialized because they are designed
(54:15):
to let people take advantage of.
What they're trying to do withgrafting and the quality is great.
They're gonna last for a very long time.
So just gonna watchsome videos on YouTube.
Do a little bit of research from localuniversities and also from farmers around
(54:36):
the area that might do that type of work.
And the more that you can learnand gather, you are gonna become
like a more informed consumerand, enjoy more of what you do.
I really think having, being new tografting and I'm so passionate and excited
about it, I think everybody who growsfruit trees should know how to do it.
(54:58):
Seriously, if you have a fruit treein the back in your backyard already,
there is no reason why you shouldn'thave grafted branches on it with
different types of compatible fruit.
Okay, we've got an email here fromJohn, our buddy John, again in Toronto.
Thanks for the advice on favoringphosphorus and potassium over
nitrogen to encourage fruiting.
(55:18):
Very helpful.
That's from John.
Now, let's see, we'vegot an email from Oscar.
Hey, Susan.
Oscar from New York here.
Just writing to say hi.
Very interesting show today.
Thank you, Oscar.
And who do we have here?
Elaine writes, aha.
Elaine writes, why don't you just usesuper dwarf, high density planting?
(55:41):
In the case of multipleApple, apple varieties.
Good question from Elaine.
So why, rather than grafting,why don't you just get a lot of
little super dwarf trees instead?
Okay.
I think that one thing that peoplecommonly misunderstand about rootstocks
is the actual size of them will theybe like dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.
(56:03):
And one of the things that I learnedfrom the great Tom Spelman of Dave Wilson
nursery, and it's absolutely true, bothin practice and in theory, is that you
don't wanna choose a rootstock becauseit's dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.
You wanna choose your rootstocksfor the adaptability to your
climate and to your soil.
(56:24):
So those are the considerations.
If I choose a dwarf tree, itmight be dwarf, but it might
be susceptible to fire blight.
So I am dedicating all this time.
Getting a dwarf tree in the ground,couple years it's producing yay.
And all of a sudden a badsummer that's really rainy.
(56:44):
It develops fire blight andthen the trees are decimated
and then I'm crying about it.
I would cry.
So I would rather choose a rootstock andvarieties that are gonna be susceptible
to that fire blight and then I cancontrol the size myself by bruny.
So that would be per, thatwould not get fire blight.
Yeah, absolutely.
(57:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Okay, it's time for us tofind out who won the contest.
Awesome.
So Gary, are you gonna help us with this?
I am going to help you.
Now what I have Javier, we, I have.
All those names that wrote in into alittle bucket, I'm gonna shake the bucket.
(57:26):
You'll be able to hear that.
And you tell me when to stop.
And then what I will do ispull out that piece of paper.
Now we have a studio audience.
They're very excited about this.
I'm trying to control them,but we'll see what happens.
Are you ready?
Okay.
Oh, here we go right now.
(57:47):
All right, let's pull this guyout and we will see who this is.
And it looks like the winneris, Oscar of New York.
It looks like.
Wow.
Down people Down.
Take it easy.
(58:08):
Oscar of New York isthe winner of the prize.
Thank you.
Wow.
That studio audience, I'll tell you, theyreally get excited with these contests.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Oh my goodness.
So the prize that Oscar is gettinglucky Oscar, I wish I could
put my own name for this prize.
I want one of these bypass pro pruners.
(58:29):
So it's a color pointbypass pro pruner from Dr.
Valued at $28 comingin six vibrant colors.
I would, if I could choose, I wouldmaybe choose blue or purple or something.
Oh, I can't have it.
It's Oscar's.
Oh and you can't have it either.
I'm sorry, Jer.
So it's not ours.
It's Oscar.
(58:49):
I know you're crying.
That's okay.
So we have our winner.
We will reach out to Oscar to gethis address and send him that.
Prize.
So thank you so much, Javier,for coming on the show.
Like what?
Fun to talk to you.
Great to be here anytime.
Yeah.
And I'd look forward tochecking out your Facebook page.
(59:13):
I'm not on Instagram yet, probablynever will be, but you never know.
It's okay.
I get very overwhelmed by social media.
But thank you for coming on this showand we will get you back someday to talk
about your project and how things go.
Fantastic.
I'm looking forward to the opportunity.
(59:33):
All right, so if you want to learn moreabout today's topic and see visuals soon,
in the next few days, I will have thevideo version of this show ready for you.
So you'll be able to seethe two of us chatting.
But not only that, there will bephotographs and little bits of video so
that you can really get a full experienceof the learning that you had in this show.
(59:57):
If you wanna do that, if you wanna see thevideo or other episodes you can do, you
can go to Orchard People's YouTube channeland find all the videos available there.
Now if you wanna learn how to graphfruit trees, if you're ready to
do this, I'm ready to teach you.
Go to orchard people.com,click on courses.
(01:00:17):
There is a wonderful course thatI worked on with Steph Roth of
Silver Creek Nursery, and wewill teach you how to do this.
You can do this.
I can do this, we can all do this.
If you want to listen to this podcastagain or download previous episodes,
go to orchard people.com/podcasts.
And that's all for now.
We've got another greatshow coming up next month.
(01:00:39):
I know what the topic is.
It's gonna be fun and hopefully you willtune in again next month to the live show.
Thanks for tuning in everybody,and I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry RadioShow here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.
In this radio show and podcast, welearn about fruit trees, permaculture,
arboriculture, and so much more.
So if you love trees and especiallyfruit trees, or if you're interested
in living a more sustainable life,then this is the place for you.
(00:38):
I'm your host, Susan Poiznerof the Fruit Tree Care training
website, orchard people.com.
Thanks for tuning in.
And enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry RadioShow with your host Susan Poizner.
(01:00):
To contact Susan Live right now, sendher an email in studio101@gbe.com,
and now right to your host of the UrbanForestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
Hi everyone.
When I started to grow fruit trees, Ihad no clue that each and every fruit
(01:26):
tree was made up of two separate trees.
The roots come from one tree andthey determine the size of the tree
when it's mature, and the upperpart of the tree is called the fruit
wood and it determines the type offruit that you are going to grow.
Now all you have to do is stick thosetwo parts together through a process
(01:48):
called grafting, and if it works, thosetwo trees fuse together just like magic.
What's amazing is that graftinglets you create trees with different
types of fruit, for instance, likean apple tree with 10 different
types of apples growing on it.
Or you can make a fruit saladtree that grows different types
(02:11):
of stone fruits on the same tree.
It's also possible to use grafting tocreate trees that can survive and grow in
places that you wouldn't expect them to.
Like growing apple trees inparts of Florida, who knows?
Maybe one day we can use graftingto create more resilient fruit trees
(02:33):
that can cope with a changing climate.
So today we are going to talk about thepotential of grafting with Javier Rivera.
For Javier grafting is a passion.
He's the owner of the Stone RiverFruit Tree nursery in central Florida.
And Javier is also pursuing hisPhD in Horticultural sciences
(02:55):
at the University of Florida.
And I'll talk to him in just a minute.
But first, I would love to hear fromyou, send in your questions, your
comments, or just an email to sayhello, and we will enter you into
today's contest to win a terrific prize.
This month's prize is Color PointBypass Pro Pruners by Duran.
(03:19):
They're valued at $28 and 62 cents,and these lovely pruners come in six
vibrant colors, and the winner ofthis month's contest will be able
to choose the color of their choice.
So do you wanna win those hand pruners?
Then enter today's contest by sending anemail right now to intu 1 0 1 gmail.com.
(03:43):
That's in studio101@gmail.com.
And do remember to include your firstname and where you're writing from.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
So now, Javier, welcome to the show today.
Thank you very much,Susan, for inviting me.
It is wonderful to have you.
(04:03):
And in the introduction I mentionedthat we can, that you're working
to graft apple trees that willsurvive and thrive in Florida.
But tell me a little bit aboutwhere you're located in Florida.
What's the plant hardiness zone and whattypes of fruit will easily grow there?
Okay, so I live in the most southernpart of the city of Orlando in Orange
(04:29):
County in central Florida, and we areclassified as U S D A zone nine B.
So this area is famous for citrus.
A lot of people that come from differentparts of the Caribbean will also
incorporate plants like mangoes andavocados, some tropicals that due to
(04:53):
our mild winters can actually grow verywell and produce fruit year after year.
Ah-huh.
So here you are in an area wherecitrus grows nicely and you
are trying to grow apple trees.
Now apple trees, are there somecultivars that will grow in your zone?
(05:15):
Oh, absolutely.
The information that is provided bymost agricultural extensions in our area
recommend a few cultivars such as Annaand Dorsett Golden, maybe Ein Shimmer.
There's a recent release by theUniversity of Florida with Texas NI
(05:36):
a and m that is called Tropic Suite.
That's another one thatdoes well in our area.
And there are a fewothers, but not very many.
And the main reason for that is becausepart of that information tells us that
due to our mild winter climate, we don'tget a lot of what's known as chill hours.
(05:57):
And they are different models thatclassify what a chill hour is.
But Simply speaking, the number ofhours before 45 degrees Fahrenheit that
occurred during the coldest months ofthe year or during the later part of
the fall season into winter season.
(06:18):
So here in Orlando, at best, forthe past few years, we've gotten an
average of about a hundred to about125 chill hours, which is very mild.
So cultivars that require manymore chill hours than that are not
(06:38):
even considered by most people.
Unless you want to do something different.
Okay.
Sorry, I'm just gonnago back for a second.
You guys have, let's say 150, yousaid 150 chill hours, hundred 50 cold
days, and these apple trees need somecold days in order to what, to produce
fruit in order to be consistent.
(07:01):
What is it about these cold chill hoursthat allow you to grow apple trees?
Will the apple trees die ifthey don't get enough cold?
What is, what are the ramifications?
Yeah, so the main information that weget is that if a tree does not receive
enough chill hours during the winterseason, it may not survive as it tries to
(07:23):
cope with the changes in the conditions.
During the daytime, whereas we go intospring, it didn't receive enough energy
for it to go ahead and blossom or produceleaves at a certain time of the year.
However, one of the things that I havediscovered recently and ins inspired
(07:45):
by different people, folks like TomSpellman of Dave Wilson nursery out
in California, Kevin Houser of KaelCreek Capital Nursery my spouse, who
is a Michigander and she has knownapples, for pretty much all of her life.
Why don't we actually try to growcertain apple varieties besides what we
(08:09):
know besides Deanna, the Dorson Golden.
Let's go ahead and stick 'em atthe ground and see what happens.
And doing a little bit of research aboutroot stocks that would be able to survive
the conditions that we have in our area.
We have discovered that manyvarieties that come from different
places all over the world.
We're talking about France, we'retalking about England, we're talking
(08:32):
about the Northern United States.
They have been not only growing well,but they have been producing fruit.
And I'm like, wait a minute, butr and these apples from these
places, they get thousands of chillhours, or they're supposed to get
thousands of chill hours and they'regrowing here just fine with 150.
(08:56):
So what is really going on?
And of course there isa method to the madness.
So there are cultural practicesthat are applied in order to ensure
that the trees are managing withthat small number of chill hours.
One of the things that is done in,not just by me but in different parts
(09:20):
of the world, in the tropics placeslike Uganda, Rwanda, and Central
Africa, is that there's a time of theyear when the trees get defoliated.
So by defoliating the trees.
You are sending a signal to the buds.
Don't count cold hours in order to getprepared for when you have to go and
(09:46):
wake up and produce leaves and balloons.
So we're just gonna let youlike rest for a little bit.
And then when the next season comeson, when winter is going away, days
are getting longer, temperaturesare getting warmer, those are gonna
be the signals you're gonna payattention to and that's what you're
(10:07):
gonna use as your guide to awaken.
So interesting.
So I just wanna clarify.
You're saying like how do youcommunicate to the tree to say, Hey
tree, by the way, listen, don't countchill hours, just hang in there.
Listen to me.
How can you communicate tothe fruit tree to tell it?
I know you're used to having lots of chillhours, but don't worry about this here.
(10:29):
We don't need to offer that to you.
So it's a process that, believe it or not,doesn't really begin in wintertime alone.
It starts getting ready in late summer.
So dormancy, those folks know, ohyeah, that's when it's wintertime
and the trees are sleeping.
There's actually differentstages to dormancy.
During the summertime.
(10:50):
You have the para dormancy in whichbuds under a certain level of the
tree are basically not growing out.
So they're not producing leaves.
They're just like staying put.
And then when the temperatures aregetting colder, the trees enter into
a stage that's known as endo dormancy.
The endo dormancy is the critical partbecause once the trees get into that
(11:14):
stage, the bugs are gonna start countingcold and they say, you know what?
I'm not gonna awaken untilI get the cold that I need.
So if we can skip that process,if we are able to reprogram.
Those buds into don't follow theendo dormancy, you're gonna be okay.
Then we can get them to produce evenif you have areas where there is not
(11:38):
enough winter chill according to theinformation that we got as of today.
So we are trying to change the paradigmon how these apples are grown simply
by doing those cultural practices thatallow us to let the trees manage in the
(11:59):
different climates, which they are grown.
That's incredible.
Let's just have a look here at an e.
We've got one email here from Greg.
Hello, Susan.
I was waiting for this show today.
Thanks.
Listening to you fromSan Diego, California.
So thank you so much for rating in Greg.
Okay, so you, this iswhat you're working on.
(12:20):
How are you using grafting inorder to achieve the that goal?
Yes.
I was very fortunate to finda series of rootstocks that
works well for me in my area.
And those are the rootstocksfrom the Geneva series they
developed by Cornell and Dr.
Jim Cummins.
(12:41):
So I use the Polish three root stocksof that series, which are Geneva 9 69,
Geneva two 10, and Geneva eight 90.
And of course, Genevaeight 90 is my favorite.
Because they are able to tolerate theexcessive rains that we get during silver.
(13:02):
So when you plant a tree, you don'twant a tree that will die when
it's not able to be plant like.
It's not able to drainwater away properly.
Of course, trees need to breathe.
So if you're putting the rootsin an area that doesn't drain
well the tree is gonna die.
And there are root stocksthat will absolutely.
Go and die if that's the case.
(13:23):
But with the Geneva Series, theyare tolerant to water logging,
so that's one big advantage.
Another one is that theyare disease resistant.
So there are many Pests and diseasesthat will leave those trees alone
simply by the rootstock thatyou're grafting your trees onto.
(13:44):
So you're not gonna have to worryabout Willy apple afis with the tallest
three trees of the Geneva Series.
You don't have to worry about phyto forroot rod, so you don't have to worry
about a colds spell That will come outof nowhere and oh my God, it's going
to die because it's gonna get too cold.
No, no worries at all.
(14:05):
So it's just a fantastic series ofrootstocks and for the most part, those
are the ones that, that I use for mypersonal collection as well as for
part of the project that we're doingas part of my doctoral dissertation.
And then lastly, when you are plantinga tree, whether it's from a seed or even
(14:27):
grafted in a seedling, there's gonnabe a long wait time before that tree.
Passes the ity period and is ableto be reproductive competent.
But when you're grafting it onto thoseroot stocks, the average turnaround
for fruit production is two to threeyears, sometimes the very next year
(14:48):
after you graft them, dependingon the variety and the conditions
where the tree is growing it.
So for me, that is a time saver because ifI want to evaluate something, let me know,
graft it on a ceiling that's gonna takepossibly eight to 10 years, let me graft
it here, and then you can get a quickerresponse time and see how it manages.
(15:09):
So there are many advantages toknowing what the root stock will do
in your area and which is the onethat's right for your situation.
Which I think is interesting becauselet's say I, live in Florida and I order
my fruit tree from a big, Nat nationalnursery and maybe I don't even know
(15:30):
what rootstock they've planted it on.
So they send me any oil.
Maybe it's a dwarfingtree, so a smaller tree.
If I don't know what the rootstock is,it really may not thrive and it may
not produce fruit in that warm climate.
So that's very interesting howimportant it is to have control and to
know what rootstock you're choosing.
(15:52):
On the other hand, from theexperimenting that you have done, does
it matter which cultivars you choose?
You said that possibly in Florida youcan grow cultivars that need hundreds of
chill hours rather than a hundred or 150.
Are there some cultivars that arejust stubborn and won't go for it
(16:14):
and others that are more flexible?
Absolutely every cultivar will haveits own flexibility, so to speak.
So there are cultivars thatwill be better adapted.
For example, we're talking about GoldRush, which is a release from the P R I
program, and many people think it needs800 to about a thousand chill hours.
(16:39):
It does very well here.
And many people tell me, what, here's thething, you're getting a Scion sent from
a nursery, and that Scion is dormant.
You're gonna graft it, it's gonnawake up, it'll give you fruit
that one year, and that's it.
That was a fluke.
And it's just okay, it's possible.
But then what happens is the next yearcomes about, and that same scion that you
(17:02):
grafted sprouts again and starts givingyou flowers and it can give you fruit.
So that's not a fluke, that's just thatthe cultivar was able to become adapted.
To the conditions where it's growing.
And it does that with themotivation of the rootstock as well.
There, there are physiological situationsthat are coming in play and, they, we
(17:31):
can definitely go down a rabbit holeand talk about those, but because we
have limited time the idea is that therootstock is a propeller and then the
scion is going to have an adaptabilitybased on what that rootstock is doing
and how you're doing the horticulturalpractices to make sure that it thrives and
(17:51):
produces in the environment that it's in.
Fantastic explanationand you make it so clear.
I really appreciate that.
We have an email here from Tom.
Tom says, Susan, I lovethe term chill hours.
My teenage son is here and heheard this coming from your show
and he thought, Ooh, this is cool.
I can chill out and not do any work wrong.
(18:13):
I live in Dallas, Texas,so yeah, chilling.
The chill hours, yeah, I guessthe tree chills out a little bit.
It's not doing a lotbut it's very important.
Now you talk about thehorticultural practices.
So again, let's say in my situation,let's say I lived in Florida and I think,
okay, I'm gonna graph myself a tree,going to take those recommendations.
(18:36):
I know which root stocks to choose.
I am gonna choose the cultivar.
What are the fancy horticultural practicesthat I then need to do in order to
encourage my tree to grow in a climatethat it wouldn't ordinarily be growing in?
That's an excellent question and it canbe a little bit complicated to address.
(18:59):
Now, folks that have been tinkeringwith crops like apples for example,
they have discovered, as I mentioned alittle bit ago, that defoliation is a
process that will tell the tree, let'sgo ahead and override these signals
in which you require this amount ofcoal to wake up and produce fruit.
(19:20):
So by doing that, the tree getsredirected or reprogrammed to produce.
That's one way.
Sometimes folks use water stressin order to make the trees produce.
For example, if there's a period of timewhere the trees are not getting any water,
that will send a signal to the tree that,Hey, I'm running low on these resources.
(19:41):
Better go ahead and producemy fruits right now.
That's something that happens as welltreatments with GI giin or GI acid,
that's another way in which trees canbe triggered into fruit production.
So they are different ways and it,there, there isn't really like a
(20:03):
manual for every single variety.
So you have to discoverwhat works and what doesn't.
Sometimes by trial and error, that'swhat researchers are constantly doing.
We're trying as scientists tofigure out, Hey, we're doing this.
What are gonna be the consequences?
What do we observe?
And based on that constant applicationof scientific concepts, we are
(20:26):
able to determine what will beuseful for a particular location.
I wanna clarify, just when youtalk about defoliation, that is
the natural process of all thenutrients coming out of the leaves.
The leaves go brown as those greenlovely nutrients go into the root system,
and then the leaves just fall off.
(20:47):
Is that what you are talking about?
Or are you talking about go pulloff the leaves from your trees
and it'll give the tree a signal?
It can be in either way.
So sometimes the affiliationhappens by applying a chemical
and basically the trees are shakenoff and then the leaves fall.
Sometimes you can just goahead and do it manually.
(21:07):
So I'll just go before a cold spell inthe latter part of the year, and I will go
ahead and manually defoliate my own trees.
And the reason I can do thatis because I grow my trees so I
can reach them from the ground.
So all of my trees are sometime probablyaround Eight feet tall at most, so
(21:29):
I can reach them from the ground.
And even though Geneva eight 90 isa rootstock that if you set it and
forget it, it's gonna produce a treesomewhere between 15 to 20 feet tall.
I can always control the sizeof the tree myself by pruning.
So that's one of the things that, assomeone who promotes the philosophy
(21:49):
of backyard or culture, we cando that in order to make it more
manageable for the home garden.
Incredible.
Okay, so if you are actually goingto defoliate your tree and pull off
all those leaves, do you wanna makesure that they are not green anymore?
Because if you're pulling off greenleaves, you're pulling off nutrition
that the tree actually needs to stashaway its roots over the colder season.
(22:14):
What's interesting is that sometimes,depending on the use of the nitrates that
are still found in the ground, it can belater in the season or later in the year,
and the trees will not wanna change color.
They will stay, still, stay green.
We'll still do it that wayjust to make sure that we can
trigger the signal on the trees.
(22:36):
Gotcha.
Okay.
We've got an email from Tina.
Tina writes Susan Does Mr.
Rivera have a website?
Do you?
We currently don't have a website,but we do have a Facebook page.
For the small operation that we run,that's called Stone River Nursery.
So you can find that on Facebook andyou can also find those on Instagram.
(23:00):
So the Instagram page is a littlebit more active as of the time.
My spouse, who is my better half, isthe one that does all the updates, and
she takes videos of the fruits thatwe are growing and make sure that we
can have chronological progressionof what's happening in our yard.
And it's incredible.
Sometimes when you see the pictures likefrom one year ago to where we're at right
(23:23):
now, the changes are just incredible.
And I am so happy that we are ableto put that in a perspective for
different people because if we are ableto do it, then so can everybody else.
So there's nothing reallyhard science that we're doing.
We're just applying some practices thatare scientifically based, but they're also
(23:46):
common sense and everybody can get themdone if they know where to go and just
to follow the guidance on how to do it.
That's great.
Okay.
Thank you for the question.
That was fantastic.
Now, I know another passion ofyours is creating multi fru trees.
So that's about kickingit up a notch here.
(24:07):
So here you are creating, usinggrafting to create fruit trees that
can grow outside a climate zone thatyou, that we think we can grow them.
I want to talk about fruit variety.
Trees.
Trees where you can grow, I don'tknow, apricots and plums and
cherries all on the same tree.
(24:28):
I'd love to do that afterthe commercial break.
Can you hold on theline just for a minute?
Absolutely Susan.
Okay, so that's what we're gonna do.
We are gonna dive into multifruit trees in just a minute.
But in the meantime, you are listening tothe Urban Forestry Radio Show and podcast,
brought to you by the Fruit Tree Caretraining website, orchard people.com.
(24:51):
This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, andI'm Susan Poizner, author of the
Fruit Tree Care Books, growing UrbanOrchards and Grow Fruit Trees Fast and
we'll be back right after the break.
(25:23):
Hi, I'm Susan Poiznerfrom Orchard people.com.
And I'm Steph Roth from SilverCreek Nursery in Ontario.
Join us for an interactive online workshopcalled Fruit Tree Grafting for anyone.
In this workshop, we'll teach you howto add different fruit tree varieties to
(25:45):
an existing treat, and we'll teach youhow to create a fruit tree from scratch.
Visit orchard people.com/workshops formore information and to sign up today.
We'll see you in class.
(26:06):
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(26:27):
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Okay, that's (519) 669-1349Wiffle Tree Nursery.
Call us today
(27:14):
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Silver Creek Nursery is a family-ownedbusiness and we grow our fruit trees
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(27:35):
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(27:56):
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(29:15):
Welcome back to the Urban ForestryRadio Show with your host Susan Poizner,
right here on Reality Radio 1 0 1.
To get on board rightnow, send us an email.
Our email address isin studio101@gmail.com.
(29:45):
And now right back to your host of theUrban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
Hi, there you are listening tothe Urban Forestry Radio Show
and podcast brought to you by theFruit Tree Care Training website.
Orchard people.com.
This is Reality Radio 1 0 1, andI'm your host, Susan Poisoner.
(30:08):
In the show, we've been talking aboutthe potential of fruit tree grafting,
and in the first part of the show wetalked about grafting apple trees that
can survive and thrive in Florida.
But one of the most exciting types ofgrafting projects that we can do is
creating a fruit tree that can producemultiple different kinds of fruits.
(30:32):
So for instance, on one tree you mighthave peaches and apricots and plums
all growing together on a single tree.
So how do you do that?
We'll find out with my guest todayhave your Rivera owner of Stone River
Nursery in central Florida, who isalso pursuing his PhD in Horticultural
(30:53):
Sciences at the University of Florida.
And by the way, anyone canlearn to graph fruit trees.
You can learn how in my new onlinecourse Fruit Tree Grafting for
Everyone, which you can find onmy website@orchardpeople.com.
But before we continue chattingtoday, I want to hear from you.
(31:15):
If you're listening to this show live,why not enter today's contest and you
can win this month's amazing prize.
It is color by Color Pointbypass Pro pruners by dram.
They're valued at $28 and 62 cents, andthe pruners come in six vibrant colors.
The winner of this month's contest will beable to choose the color of their choice.
(31:39):
So why not enter the contest right now?
Just send us an email.
Send the email to intu 1 0 1gmail.com and include your question,
a comment, or just email us to say hi.
Be sure to include your first nameand where you're writing from.
So now back to Javier.
(31:59):
Are you still with me?
I'm still here with you.
That's great.
Okay, so next let's talk aboutcreating malf fruit trees with various
different types of fruit on one tree.
Can you tell me a story?
When did you start doing this stuff?
Wow.
So I guess my first experiencegetting the idea of what it would be
(32:21):
like was back in 2 20 14 when I gotmy very first orchard established.
And that time it was only stone fruits anddifferent types of stone fruit hybrids.
As time went on, and I noticed that eventhough I got flowers from these different
trees, I noticed that many of thoseflowers that were supposed to produce
(32:45):
because the trees were considered selffruitful, really didn't, and they needed
a pollination partner in order to produce.
Some of them, whether they're consideredself fruitful or not, will always do
better when you have a pollinator, apollinating variety, a colonizer, and
I think, wait a minute some folks have.
(33:08):
Multiple varieties offruit in a single tree.
And they have the multi grafted ones orthe fruit cocktails or the fruit salads.
There's different names forthem, so why can't we do this?
And of course, one impediment iswhether the variety that you want to
put on the tree is patented or not.
(33:31):
So we wanna respect the industry.
We wanna make sure that we are notpropagating varieties that are patented
cuz otherwise that would be infringement.
And we wanna make sure that thefolks that spend the time developing
those varieties have the respect,have the income for the royalties
that they get from those patents.
So I don't do that, but anymaterial that the patent has
(33:53):
already expired or that is a varietythat has been for many years ago.
Heirlooms, all of those are fair game.
When I moved from my firstproperty where I established
the orchard, I had to sell it.
And then I bought my next property.
We started from scratch and I wasgonna start with stone fruits again.
(34:16):
But then my wife said, you know whatis one thing that we may want to do
that a lot of people aren't doing?
And we have tinkered with applesbefore we've and that was something
that we started doing monthsbefore we left the other property.
So my wife suggested, whynot do it with apples?
And for the most part, because thatwould be something more exclusive.
(34:39):
Not a lot of people are doingit and being smarter than me.
I was just like, okay, fine.
I will just go ahead and do it.
And that's how we started our ownApple orchard slash investigation
slash research into everythingthat we have developed into today.
So when I grafted multiple.
(35:03):
Varieties into one tree.
I wanted to make sure that I hadpollinating varieties or varieties that
when they wake up around the same time.
So when the bees visit the trees,they can go from one flower type
to another flower type, and thenthe pollen can be exchanged.
That in principle soundsvery straightforward.
(35:26):
For some reason, my experience hasbeen that the bees don't like to visit
those flowers, so I become the bee.
So I will take a small stemc cellbrush and then when I know that they
are flowers from different trees thatare coming on, I will go ahead and
move the pollen around and it works.
(35:48):
So it is it ideal?
No, but it's a way that we can have alittle bit of backup just in case that
you don't have the pollen exchange thatyou would require for having fruit.
So let's, so we're starting offwith apples and you're creating,
you're putting on these differentcultivars of apples on one tree.
You're thinking, thebees aren't cooperating.
(36:09):
So you go around with a paintbrush,you dust the little open flowers
and you're moving the sort of thepollen from one flower to the next.
Absolutely.
So that's when you are doingmulti grafted apple trees.
What about stone fruit trees whereyou have many different types of
stone fruits that wouldn't evencross pollinate with each other?
(36:30):
Like you can't, you can have one treewith plums and apricots on it, but those
plums and apricots won't cross pollinate.
It's interesting that you say thatbecause zer Genetics, which is a
company out in California I thinkthat they are located in Modesto.
(36:50):
They have created different hybrids ofstone fruits by crossing the pollen,
say from an apricot into a plum.
And then they can get eitheran apron, they can get a plum
Cot, they can get a flu o.
And depends on the percentagesof the fruit resembling
either one of the parents.
(37:11):
So if it's more apricotthan plum, it's an apron.
If it's about the same,it will be a plum cot.
If it's more of theplum, it will be alu, ot.
It doesn't always happen, but that'swhat they're dedicated into doing.
They're trying to find the bestattributes from different types of fruits.
And then those pollen crosses createnatural hybrids that will enhance
(37:35):
the fruit content of the crops.
And then they will have differenttypes of flavor profiles.
And I have tasted some of them.
They are amazing.
So it's really great.
That sounds great.
And so if you have like this, oneof these crosses in your orchard,
It will the pollen from like the,a apron or whatever the, a plum.
(37:59):
Apricot plum can possibly crosspollinatewith your apricot cultivars.
Yes.
Or with your plum cultivars.
Oh, boy.
Yes.
That's amazing.
Yep.
Okay.
We have an interestingquestion here from Spencer.
I'm listening from Kaysville, utUtah, I would like to know what
recommended combos are for multigrafted horizontal cordon trees.
(38:24):
I would like to graft one row ofapple cultivar and then another row
of a complimentary apple cultivarthat will grow at the same rate.
As my first row, my horizontal cordontrees will have three or four horizontal
rows, and I'm interested in having onecultivar on the odd number horizontal
(38:45):
rows and a different cultivar on theeven numbered horizontal roads, any
perfect combos, so that even an oddrose looks similar in growth rate.
Thanks, Spencer.
Wow.
So basically Spencer is doingsome beautiful, interesting bolier
growing his fruit trees up a flattwo dimensionally against a fence.
(39:09):
He wants to intermesh these two varieties,but he wants them to blossom at the
same time and grow at the same rate.
Any suggestions?
Okay L aside from the somewhatcomplicated schematics one thing
that I could recommend is to makesure that you become informed of the
(39:31):
varieties that grow in your area.
Because since you live in Utah and youwill get the cold, there's more likely
records by the county extensions promotedby the universities that provide the
information to the rest of the state onwhat cultivars grow at the same time.
So if you have like differentones, that's how you want to do.
(39:54):
In order to ensure that they have thesame growth, they have to be planted in
an area where they're gonna receive equalamounts of sunlight, that the ground is
gonna have the same type of composition,and that the root stock that you're
using to propagate them is the same.
So the more equal you can createthe conditions for those cultivars.
(40:17):
The uniformity that you can provide,then it's gonna work better for
the plants that you have laid outin your question, saying, that's
a great answer, saying that.
However, I know that in our orchard wehave, for instance, liberty apple, oh my
gosh, that thing is so vigorous and growsso quickly compared to, a rusted apple
(40:38):
tree that we have that is just, you couldsit there and watch it for a hundred years
and you'd see maybe an inch of growth.
So I guess you're right.
It's really about the research, butI love how you say the most important
thing is to find out what thrives inyour community that is so important.
Got a couple of otherquick questions here.
One is from John from Toronto.
(41:00):
John says, hi Susan.
It's John just joined in listeningregarding triggering blooming.
Has our host ever triggeredblooming by scoring the trunk?
Of course, I have to ask.
I have not done it that way, so I'dprobably be afraid of doing that.
But that is somethingthat is applied in order.
(41:22):
It's one of the practices thatsometimes gets applied in order to
encourage production from fruit trees.
I haven't per, I haven'tpersonally done it.
The management that I provide issimply defoliation at the specific
time of the year, and also providingnutrition that's going to encourage
(41:43):
fruit production and root stability.
So when I use a fertilizer at ufs, afertilizer that's slightly lower in
nitrogen compared to phosphorus andpotassium, because the phosphorus
and potassium will trigger or helpwith the production of flowers
rather than vegetative growth.
So if I get more vegetative growth,I'm not getting as many flowers.
(42:05):
There's a competition.
Be between the resources of the tree.
What are we gonna use forVegeta vegetative growth?
What are we gonna usefor fruit production?
What are we gonna use asresearch for the next year?
So this pie of sorts, it's getting splitinto different parts, but I wanted more
dedicated to one particular mission.
(42:26):
And if it's gonna be for flowering andfruit production, then I'm gonna feed
according to what I want the tree to do.
If I want the tree to growbig, go with nitrogen.
If you want the tree to stay small, butbe a little bit more productive, switch
gears on the nitrogen and go a littlebit more on phosphorus and potassium.
That's again, a great answer becauseI know John has been struggling with
(42:48):
his tree that just doesn't flower.
It's a tree, it's an heirloom,and he's just so frustrated.
So maybe he's using toomuch nitrogen, who knows?
It's awesome.
So John, yeah, I'm sure you'll getback to us about that at some point.
We've got an email fromDawn from Michigan.
Hi Susan.
Great subject today, backyardOrchard culture and multi
graph trees are my favorites.
(43:09):
Thank you, Dawn.
Okay.
Oh, and we have another email here.
Oh, also from John, we're hearingback again from John in Toronto.
I, Susan, as your guest ever successfullyhand pollinated an apple Triplo.
Any advice?
Yeah, so it, it's a great questionand yes, because I have a few
(43:34):
trips in my collection of apples.
Probably the most The most productiveone of them is Bramley Seedling, which
is an apple variety from England.
If you ask any English person,which is the pie apple that you
want to use, is gonna be bramleys abeautiful tree, and it is a triploid.
(43:57):
So what happens is thatit's pollen sterile.
So the pollen due to the number ofchromosomes that it has, is not able
to pollinate itself and it's notable to pollinate other varieties.
So you'll need pollen from a deployedvariety, and that's probably where the
majority of the apple trees are at.
(44:18):
So you'll take the pollen safe from aCoxs orange Pippen, or see granny Smith.
You can take it from Gold Rush, anyvariety that is deployed, and then you
can pollinate the flowers of the Brandley.
It will produce fruit andcurrently we were successful.
(44:38):
It's just starting to wake up froma few weeks ago and we have a few
fruit clusters already in development.
Oh, fantastic.
So back to, we were talking about multigraft trees and we were talking about
stone fruit trees, and I know thatyou do multi graph stone fruit trees.
What types, what type of root stock works,works best for that purpose in order to
(45:03):
accommodate different types of fruit?
Okay, so in the industry, the one thathappens to be used the most is nemaguard.
So nemaguard is a peach seedlingbecause peach has great compatibility
with the majority of the stone fruits.
It's compatible with itself, is compatiblewith nectarine, plums and apricots.
(45:25):
So it, it's very commonly usedfor multiple grafted trees.
With my situation, it's.
Problematic because both properties thatI acquire here in the state of Florida,
they don't have the sandy soil that isso famous in most of the households.
(45:45):
I have soil that is compacted thatwhen it rains in the summertime,
it's always soupy, it's always wet.
Petros do not like wet feet.
They will not toleratethe excessive rainwater.
So if I do have something on nemaguard,which absolutely I must have, I
(46:06):
will plant it in a raised bed.
But to go to the question, what do Iuse because I have soil that is wet, the
plum rootstocks are more adaptable tobe planted in areas where the soil stays
moist for a prolonged period of time.
Things like my Roblan 29 C Mariana 26 24.
(46:31):
But then they don't have thecompatibility with say, like a peach
or an nectarine that you would like.
So there is one solution.
There is a root stop thatis known as citation.
It was developed in Californiaprobably more than 20, 30 years ago.
The patent on it expired already.
(46:51):
And for plums and apricots, it'sgood on its own, but for peaches
and nectarines, if it rains, it issusceptible to transmitting viruses
and then the tr the case quickly.
Otherwise, it's a fantastic rootstock.
So if you live in an area where it'snot gonna be constantly moist by rain,
(47:14):
so the irrigation can be there, itlikes the irrigation, but it doesn't
like the water when it remains inthe soil for a long period of time.
So maybe we can take a cutting ofthat citation, connect it with.
The plum rootstock, and it canbe connected because citation
is a plum peach hybrid.
(47:35):
So there is plum in thegenetics of the citation.
And then once that connection occurs,you can graft a peach or nectarine
on top of the citation bridge, andthat's what's known as an inter stem.
And then you are able to create atree that has the plum root stock
(47:56):
that is resistant to the soil, and ithas the adaptability to connect with
the citation as part of that bridge.
So the citation.
Will impart properties that are positivewithout having to mess with the roots.
So it will make it to have bigger fruit.
It will increase the sugar contentand it will be compatible with
(48:17):
the peach and the nectarine.
So that is magical.
Okay.
That's incredible.
So essentially with thisinterest stem, we are having
more than one graft on the tree.
It gives you the flexibility.
My question is, let's say I wantto create a tree using that system
with an interstem that has fivedifferent types of fruit on it.
(48:39):
Do I, do you know, this springor whatever, do I do all
seven grafts at the same time?
I'm like, okay, I'm gonnaassemble a fruit tree.
I've got my root stock, and then I'm gonnagraft on the inter interstem and then
I think I'll graft on something else,the my rebellion, and then I'm gonna
graft on five different types of fruit.
Can you assemble a treeall in one shot like that?
(48:59):
Or is this a multi-year projectthat you let each graft take?
See what happens, let it grow andthen continue grafting onto it.
I think that if you're trying to usethe inner stem to do multiple graphs
at the same time, it'll take you twoyears because the first year you're
(49:22):
going to graft the inter stem as ifit was just a regular scion, and then
you're gonna let that inter interststem grow and develop branches.
So those branches are gonna developfor a full year, and then when the
next winter comes, then you're goingto select the branches that you want
to keep, and then you can graph scienceonto those branches in order to create
(49:45):
the multicrafted tree that you desired.
And they are greatadvantages in doing that.
For example, for folks that areshort on space, having multiple
varieties in one single tree, it'sgoing to solve problems of spacing.
It's also gonna give you.
An extended harvest or what's knownas successive ripening because you're
(50:07):
gonna have things that are gonna beready at different times of the year.
So instead of getting fruit two to threeweeks at a time, and then that's it.
You can have a tree that can giveyou fruit possibly for months.
So it's great.
You're gonna have different varietiesor different types of fruits.
So you can have apricot, you canhave nectarine, you can have peach,
(50:29):
you can have plum, you can have poutall in one tree, which is fantastic.
So it's conversation maker of sorts.
So there are many advantages, butthere's also things to watch out
for when you have multiple graftedtrees, just like with everything.
And when you mention the situationwith the liberty, which grows like
(50:53):
a weed, and then you have the otherapple that grows very little when you
have multiple grafts in the same tree.
One or a few varieties will wantto take over the tree and then
they will shade out the rest.
So when they are growing more vigorouslythan the others, is your job to prune
them accordingly, to keep them incheck with the rest of the varieties.
(51:16):
So there isn't really like adomination or an overtake of one
variety compared to the rest.
However, in reality, there are timeswhen you buy a multiple grafted
tree, say from a nursery or froma maor place, that when it arrives
it will have a few thick branches.
(51:37):
And then a couple of themwill be like CUNY or thin.
And if that is the case, when you'replanting your tree in the ground, you want
to orient the tree with the section thathas the smaller or the punier branches
facing the south or the southwest.
And the reason you do that isbecause you want them to catch up.
(51:59):
And facing in that orientation willallow them to receive the maximum
solar exposure, so they will getthose nutrients, and then eventually
they will catch up to the othervarieties that are more vigorous.
So those are important thingsto watch out for when dealing
with multiple grafted trees.
Something that I'd love to add becauseI have a little bit of a pet peeve
(52:22):
for purchased multi graft trees.
What I find is that they're really notdesigned for people to graft the nut
graft to prune these trees correctly.
So if you know how, if you know havesome skills in fruit tree grafting, you
will be able to choose a better treeor better yet, graft your own tree.
Fruit tree grafting is incrediblyimportant to keep your tree
(52:44):
healthy and productive.
But if you don't know how to do it, youmay get a tree and you're like, oh my
gosh, how do I prune this now so peoplecan learn Grafting it orchard people.com.
I've got courses on itand articles and stuff.
We have a few quick emails will go throughcuz believe it or not, we're coming up
to the end of the show, so let's see.
I know it's crazy.
I know.
It's crazy.
It happens just like that.
(53:05):
You're so interesting.
That's why.
Okay.
Okay, so Hi Susan and Javier.
I am so impressed by this concept.
I'm sorry if I missed this atthe beginning, but how did Javier
get into this research and work?
And this is thanks from Olivia and yourfriends from Fort Ha Spirits in Brooklyn.
Okay.
So quick, how did you get into this?
(53:29):
Just watching videos and justseeing, wow, I, I wanna have
what they are doing right there.
So I'll just learn and just watch a fewthings, get, some material where you
can practice and practice makes perfect.
Protect yourself at all times.
Grafting knives are sharp, so havingan instrument like, like a cutout
(53:53):
board where if you're doing insertionsor where you're doing the cut on a
rootstock so that your hae is protectedin case that your knife slips.
That's really important.
Make sure that you're gettingthe right instruments.
Sometimes you can get by withwhat you have at your house, but
there's a reason why materials arespecialized because they are designed
(54:15):
to let people take advantage of.
What they're trying to do withgrafting and the quality is great.
They're gonna last for a very long time.
So just gonna watchsome videos on YouTube.
Do a little bit of research from localuniversities and also from farmers around
(54:36):
the area that might do that type of work.
And the more that you can learnand gather, you are gonna become
like a more informed consumerand, enjoy more of what you do.
I really think having, being new tografting and I'm so passionate and excited
about it, I think everybody who growsfruit trees should know how to do it.
(54:58):
Seriously, if you have a fruit treein the back in your backyard already,
there is no reason why you shouldn'thave grafted branches on it with
different types of compatible fruit.
Okay, we've got an email here fromJohn, our buddy John, again in Toronto.
Thanks for the advice on favoringphosphorus and potassium over
nitrogen to encourage fruiting.
(55:18):
Very helpful.
That's from John.
Now, let's see, we'vegot an email from Oscar.
Hey, Susan.
Oscar from New York here.
Just writing to say hi.
Very interesting show today.
Thank you, Oscar.
And who do we have here?
Elaine writes, aha.
Elaine writes, why don't you just usesuper dwarf, high density planting?
(55:41):
In the case of multipleApple, apple varieties.
Good question from Elaine.
So why, rather than grafting,why don't you just get a lot of
little super dwarf trees instead?
Okay.
I think that one thing that peoplecommonly misunderstand about rootstocks
is the actual size of them will theybe like dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.
(56:03):
And one of the things that I learnedfrom the great Tom Spelman of Dave Wilson
nursery, and it's absolutely true, bothin practice and in theory, is that you
don't wanna choose a rootstock becauseit's dwarf, semi dwarf or standard.
You wanna choose your rootstocksfor the adaptability to your
climate and to your soil.
(56:24):
So those are the considerations.
If I choose a dwarf tree, itmight be dwarf, but it might
be susceptible to fire blight.
So I am dedicating all this time.
Getting a dwarf tree in the ground,couple years it's producing yay.
And all of a sudden a badsummer that's really rainy.
(56:44):
It develops fire blight andthen the trees are decimated
and then I'm crying about it.
I would cry.
So I would rather choose a rootstock andvarieties that are gonna be susceptible
to that fire blight and then I cancontrol the size myself by bruny.
So that would be per, thatwould not get fire blight.
Yeah, absolutely.
(57:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
Okay, it's time for us tofind out who won the contest.
Awesome.
So Gary, are you gonna help us with this?
I am going to help you.
Now what I have Javier, we, I have.
All those names that wrote in into alittle bucket, I'm gonna shake the bucket.
(57:26):
You'll be able to hear that.
And you tell me when to stop.
And then what I will do ispull out that piece of paper.
Now we have a studio audience.
They're very excited about this.
I'm trying to control them,but we'll see what happens.
Are you ready?
Okay.
Oh, here we go right now.
(57:47):
All right, let's pull this guyout and we will see who this is.
And it looks like the winneris, Oscar of New York.
It looks like.
Wow.
Down people Down.
Take it easy.
(58:08):
Oscar of New York isthe winner of the prize.
Thank you.
Wow.
That studio audience, I'll tell you, theyreally get excited with these contests.
It's amazing, isn't it?
Oh my goodness.
So the prize that Oscar is gettinglucky Oscar, I wish I could
put my own name for this prize.
I want one of these bypass pro pruners.
(58:29):
So it's a color pointbypass pro pruner from Dr.
Valued at $28 comingin six vibrant colors.
I would, if I could choose, I wouldmaybe choose blue or purple or something.
Oh, I can't have it.
It's Oscar's.
Oh and you can't have it either.
I'm sorry, Jer.
So it's not ours.
It's Oscar.
(58:49):
I know you're crying.
That's okay.
So we have our winner.
We will reach out to Oscar to gethis address and send him that.
Prize.
So thank you so much, Javier,for coming on the show.
Like what?
Fun to talk to you.
Great to be here anytime.
Yeah.
And I'd look forward tochecking out your Facebook page.
(59:13):
I'm not on Instagram yet, probablynever will be, but you never know.
It's okay.
I get very overwhelmed by social media.
But thank you for coming on this showand we will get you back someday to talk
about your project and how things go.
Fantastic.
I'm looking forward to the opportunity.
(59:33):
All right, so if you want to learn moreabout today's topic and see visuals soon,
in the next few days, I will have thevideo version of this show ready for you.
So you'll be able to seethe two of us chatting.
But not only that, there will bephotographs and little bits of video so
that you can really get a full experienceof the learning that you had in this show.
(59:57):
If you wanna do that, if you wanna see thevideo or other episodes you can do, you
can go to Orchard People's YouTube channeland find all the videos available there.
Now if you wanna learn how to graphfruit trees, if you're ready to
do this, I'm ready to teach you.
Go to orchard people.com,click on courses.
(01:00:17):
There is a wonderful course thatI worked on with Steph Roth of
Silver Creek Nursery, and wewill teach you how to do this.
You can do this.
I can do this, we can all do this.
If you want to listen to this podcastagain or download previous episodes,
go to orchard people.com/podcasts.
And that's all for now.
We've got another greatshow coming up next month.
(01:00:39):
I know what the topic is.
It's gonna be fun and hopefully you willtune in again next month to the live show.
Thanks for tuning in everybody,and I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.
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