Find Freedom from Perfectionism and Embrace God's Perfect Love with Colleen Carroll Campbell
In this episode of the Veil and Armour podcast, host Sheila Nonato welcomes Colleen Carroll Campbell, an award-winning journalist, best-selling Catholic author, former Presidential Speech Writer, and homeschooling Mom, to discuss her critically-acclaimed book, "The Heart of Perfection."
Colleen shares insights on the pervasive issue of perfectionism in the age of social media, comparing oneself to others, and the distinction between material and spiritual perfection. She emphasizes the dangers of both social and spiritual perfectionism, advocating for a deeper understanding of God’s grace and love. Colleen also discusses her personal journey from a high-profile career to embracing motherhood and homeschooling, guided by faith and divine nudges. The episode highlights the teachings of saints like St. Ignatius of Loyola and St. Benedict, offering practical advice on achieving balance and understanding God's will in daily life. The conversation explores the transformative power of accepting one's imperfections and trusting in God's grace, and His Divine plan.
This interview was recorded on Nov. 13, 2024. Thank you for your prayers and support!
To find out more about Colleen's work and her books, "The Heart of Perfection," "My Sisters the Saints," and "The New Faithful," please visit:
https://www.colleen-campbell.com
You can also follow Colleen's work on Facebook and Substack (A Better Homeland - Colleen Carroll Campbell)
https://www.facebook.com/colleencarrollcampbell
https://colleencarrollcampbell.substack.com/
00:00 Introduction to Perfectionism
00:34 Understanding Social and Spiritual Perfectionism
00:53 Saints and Their Struggles with Perfection
01:38 Defining Perfection in Daily Life
02:26 Guest Introduction: Colleen Carroll Campbell
03:33 Embracing Imperfection
05:38 Welcome to this week's episode!
08:39 Colleen's Journey: Career to Motherhood
16:37 Navigating Perfectionism in Faith and Life
19:14 Saint Ignatius and Overcoming Perfectionism
22:45 Saint Benedict's Blueprint for Balance
28:30 Thank you for Listening!
Themes and Takeaways:
• Social perfectionism and its rise in the age of social media
• Distinction between material perfection and spiritual perfection
• Importance of intentions over accomplishments in spiritual growth
• Colleen's journey managing motherhood and career aspirations
• Lessons from St. Ignatius on overcoming despair and cultivating trust
• Value of balance inspired by St. Benedict's teachings
• Embracing imperfection as a path to God's love and grace
• The call to create grace-filled homes amidst societal pressures
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (00:00):
It's that addiction to control, to
wanting to control things.
And I think socialperfectionism is much more
obvious and common today,especially in the age of social
media.
And what I mean by that term iscomparing ourselves to others,
competing constantly with others, you know, comparing our real
lives to the airbrushed versionsof the lives of others and
trying to see if our choices aremeasuring up our careers are
(00:21):
measuring up our kids aremeasuring up even our face.
If our choices are measuring upour careers are measuring up,
our kids are measuring up evenour faith.
Spiritual perfectionism I speakabout more.
In the heart of perfection.
All of these different forms ofperfectionism crop up and
they're all interlinked.
But I do think spiritualperfectionism is at the heart of
these, because it's aboutimporting that same distorted
thinking into our relationshipwith God and believing on some
(00:43):
level that we need to earn God'slove.
And of course we know, as goodCatholics we're not supposed to
believe that and we should knowthat God's love is a gratuitous
gift and all is grace.
Sheila Nonato (00:53):
The Church is not a museum for saints, it's a
hospital for sinners, was one ofSt Augustine's most repeated
quotes.
Yet even many of the saints andthe holy men and women of the
Bible had their weaknesses anddoubts, just like us, before or
even after their conversiontowards God.
In Scripture and in theaccounts of the saints we read
(01:18):
how they were not perfect,unlike the unblemished Lamb of
God, or the absolute purity ofHis Mother Mary, or the
perfection of God Himself in theHoly Trinity.
In the Bible, jesus alsoteaches us that we must be
perfect, as our Heavenly Fatheris perfect.
What does perfection mean indaily life?
(01:41):
Is it what the world sees asperfect Beauty, intellect, money
, power, status?
Is perfection in motherhood andwomanhood about how we look,
how clean and tidy our homes are, how our children behave in
(02:03):
church?
Is it about a carefully curatedway of living?
In this episode, we will lookat perfection in the material
world and compare it tospiritual perfection.
There will be a distinctionbetween God's definition of
perfection and perfectionism,the latter being something that
can develop into unhealthyhabits and spiritual practices.
(02:24):
Thing that can develop intounhealthy habits and spiritual
practices.
This week's guest, ColleenCaroll Campbell, is an
award-winning journalist, abest-selling Catholic author and
a former presidentialspeechwriter.
Her career achievements areglowing and exceptional, earning
the respect and admiration ofmany, a role model to women and
(02:45):
those aspiring to greatness intheir motherly and womanly
vocation.
Yet she shares in her latestbook, "he Heart of Perfection,
that our definition ofperfection is different from
what God is calling us to Let goof material perfection and
embrace God's perfect love.
Let's hear Colleen explain whatwe can learn from the saints
(03:09):
and what is at the true heart ofperfection.
Hello, Sisters in Christ,Welcome to this week's episode,
and I am humbled and honoured towelcome Colleen Caroll Campbell
to our podcast this week, and Ijust wanted to continue to ask
(03:30):
for your prayers.
I thank you for your prayersfor our podcast, apostolate, and
I would also like to ask you toplease bear with us during the
technical difficulties that wehad this week.
Technical difficulties that wehad this week, but I truly
(03:51):
believe that the power ofColleen's message can overcome
these technical glitches.
Sometimes God's timing isactually perhaps perfect, in
that this episode aboutperfection and perfectionism has
little technical glitches inthe beginning.
But isn't that fitting formotherhood, in that we rarely
(04:11):
ever find ourselves in theperfect situation or the perfect
time to do things.
Many times we just have topower through and with God's
grace, with God's help, we areable to complete our tasks.
We're able to do motherhood,however imperfectly, but to the
(04:32):
best of our abilities, with ourbest intentions, with our
children, the best interests ofour family in mind, and trying
to offer, and trying to offerour little sacrifices and daily
crosses for our own families,for ourselves, for whoever might
need that prayer, that offering, that day and, as they say, the
(04:57):
perfect is not exactly the sameas God's, but God is able to
turn our little imperfectionsinto something beautiful and
(05:21):
something redeeming andsomething transformative.
Thank you again for joining usand let's hear Colleen share
what is the true heart ofperfection.
Hello and welcome to the Veiland Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
(05:42):
I'm a stay-at-home Mom and afreelance Catholic journalist.
Seeking the guidance of theHoly Spirit and the inspiration
of Our Lady, I strive to tellstories that inspire, illuminate
and enrich the lives ofCatholic women, to help them in
living out our vocation ofraising the next generation of
leaders and saints.
Co-Hosts (06:01):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (06:10):
Good afternoon.
We have as our guest ColleenCarol Campbell.
I wanted to have you as ourguest today.
Maybe start off with a prayer,please.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:21):
Okay, great, so you had mentioned
maybe saying the Hail Marytogether.
Sheila Nonato (06:25):
Yeah, of course yes, In the name of the Father
and the Son and of the HolySpirit, Amen.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:33):
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is
with Thee.
Sheila Nonato (06:35):
The Lord is with thee.
Co-Host (06:35):
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb Jesus.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:43):
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us
sinners, now and at the hour ofour death.
Amen.
Sheila Nonato (06:49):
Father in the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen, and
I'm very excited to welcome youtoday because I read your book
the New Faithful in 2002, justafter World Youth Day in Toronto
and yeah, so it's always been adream to interview you one day,
and I'd like to introduce youto our listeners.
Yes, and I'd like to introduceyou to our listeners and I'm
(07:11):
sure they already know who youare, but I just wanted to let
them know, remind them again,that you are an award-winning
author, print and broadcastjournalist and a former
presidential speechwriter.
Journalist and a formerpresidential speechwriter.
Colleen's books include hercritically acclaimed
journalistic study, the NewFaithful, her special memoir my
Sister the Saints, which won twonational awards and has been
(07:34):
published in five languages, andher award-winning new release,
the Heart of Perfection how theSaints Taught Me to Trade my
Dream of Perfect for Gods.
Colleen has written for the NewYork Times, The Washington Post
, Christianity Today, Americaand National Review, and
appeared on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, ABC News, PBS, NPR and EWTN,
(08:00):
where she hosted her owntelevision and radio show for
eight years.
A former speechwriter forPresident George W Bush, an
editorial writer and op-edcolumnist for the St.
Louis Post-Dispatch, colleen isthe recipient of two honorary
doctorates and numerous otherawards and fellowships.
She speaks to audiencesworldwide and lives on the
(08:20):
central coast of California withher husband and four children
whom she homeschools, and youcan visit her online at
colleen-campbell.
com and for today's podcast.
I would love to discuss yourbook, "he Heart of Perfection,
and would like to take a look atthe two parts perfection and
then the heart.
But before we dive in, I waswondering if you could look at a
(08:42):
section of the book where youwrote about you know all of
these career achievements thatyou have attained.
You wrote about you had agrowing dissatisfaction with
journalism and that you sensedquote a call to trade the higher
profile, chase, the pack mediawork that impressed others for
the deeper, more demandingcreative work that attracted me.
(09:04):
Others for the deeper, moredemanding creative work that
attracted me, the work ofeducating my children and
writing books that could changelives, not just mine, unquote.
And can you please discuss,explain to us what was this sort
of struggle, your internalstruggle, that we were having?
I'm sure a lot of women havehad the struggle about their
career and their family.
Can you please sort of let usin on how that process went?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (09:27):
Sure, I had a long road to motherhood.
My husband and I prayed forchildren for several years
before God blessed us withchildren and that journey
through infertility was a bigpart of what I wrote about in my
memoir, "y Sisters, the Saints.
So motherhood didn't come easyfor me, pretty central in my
(09:53):
life really ever since collegeand before college I was one of
those kids who had a resume inmiddle school.
So I don't like that and Ialways loved to write and I
loved journalism and politicsand acting and drawing and
anything creative and out therein the world to connecting with
people, finding stories, lookingat deeper issues.
I even dabbled in philosophy.
I started work toward adoctorate in philosophy at one
point and then left that when Igot the job to when I got the
(10:15):
offer to write speeches forPresident Bush in the White
House.
So I'd been kind of doing a lotof different things and one
constant, I would say, in mycareer and discernment of that
was how I'd often be doingsomething that everyone else
thought was really cool and moreimportant, and I would start
feeling this nudge from the HolySpirit to try something new,
(10:38):
something maybe I wasn't asskilled at or just didn't have
the experience with or didn'thave the amazing opportunity
with yet, and then kind of stepout in faith and try some new
things.
So it was interesting allthrough my career.
You know, I would leave onething and people would say, oh,
that's crazy, because that'ssuch a neat opportunity, and
then eventually I get to doingsomething else that I thought
(11:01):
would even more impactful forGod.
I mean with plenty of, you know, dips and turns in the roads,
like anyone has.
But so I kind of learned earlyin my career, in other words,
that you know God's ways are notour ways and sometimes when we
listen to those nudges, we canwind up in exciting places doing
amazing things for God that wewouldn't have orchestrated
(11:21):
ourselves if it had been all upto me to plan it myself.
So as my family is growingpretty rapidly I mean I had four
children four and under at onepoint is growing pretty rapidly
I mean I had four children fourand under at one point.
So anyway, long story short isI'd been feeling this tug for a
while to go deeper.
I'd grown pretty tired offollowing the news cycle and
(11:42):
being on that cycle and I'dgradually taken steps out of
that.
You know I started in dailyjournalism, newspaper journalism
, and gradually I'd movedfurther and further away from
that news cycle.
But now, with littles at homeand wanting to spend a lot of
time with them, it made moresense than ever to me to dive
deeper and specifically into therealm of spiritual writing and
creative writing.
You know who's up and who'sdown and what's going on and
(12:04):
what are the arguments and who'swinning the arguments.
But I really think what changespeople's lives even more are our
stories, witnesses of faith,and more that contemplative
aspect and creative aspect ofour writing and our literature.
(12:25):
So that's the direction Iwanted to go.
The direction I wanted to goand you know it's scary always
to step out of something youknow how to do, that you've been
successful at, and trysomething new that you might not
be so successful at.
But I did feel God nudging mein that direction.
And I also felt a very strongpull toward homeschooling my
children, which is neversomething I thought I'd be doing
, but it wound up being a reallyimportant part of my life and
(12:48):
our family's life.
So I credit God for giving methose nudges, because I
certainly wouldn't have come upwith these ideas on my own.
Sheila Nonato (12:57):
And when you mentioned going that route and
embracing motherhood andhomeschooling, I know a lot of
women might feel sort of regretor you know what could have been
.
But are we looking at it thewrong way, that we are
sacrificing something greaterfor something less than?
I know that there are somepeople I do homeschool my kids
(13:19):
as well, and you know maybe somepeople will be.
Why are you wasting your?
You have three degrees.
What are you doingHomeschooling your children when
you can be earning more workingoutside, working outside?
Are we looking at this through?
the wrong lens that motherhoodis somehow not as important a
(13:39):
vocation as working outside thehome.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (13:43):
Well, certainly, I think the work that
we do with our children, it'stop in terms of the importance
of it.
I don't think this looks thesame for every woman.
I don't think every singlewoman is called to stay home
full-time or to homeschool.
I understand that each womankind of has to discern with her
family and with Jesus, what itis he's calling her to do, and I
(14:04):
think a lot of women like youand I, sheila, you know, combine
some form of key hand in ourwork with homeschooling.
So I don't think it's superblack and white, And I, Sheila,
you know, combine some form ofkeep hand in our work with
homeschooling.
So I don't think it's superblack and white, which is
sometimes how the world paintsit.
You know, you're all in oryou're all out, you know, and
most women want to keep a handin, but they also want to spend
a lot of their best hours withkids, and so for me,
(14:27):
homeschooling has been a greatgift.
Like I said, it wasn't somethingI pictured myself doing.
I figured it was just a careerkiller for people who didn't
maybe have much of a career tostart with.
So they didn't mind and I'vereally changed my tune Partly.
You know, we started it just asa lark no-transcript too badly,
(14:57):
so I'll just try that.
And then at the beginning, itbecame a real way of life and a
real focal point for our familyand a way that I could say in a
very organic way instead of, youknow, on Sunday, or a prayer
before meals in the eveningswhich is good, something that
was all day long and when theyhad those really big theological
(15:17):
questions, I was the one toanswer them instead of whoever
happened to be standing in frontof them during their eight-hour
school day.
The socializing too they becamevery close friends with each
other and I could, you know,have more say over the kids we
were hanging out with and whatthey were doing, and we could
kind of build a morecountercultural intentional list
with the help of homeschooling.
(15:39):
And I think that's the reasonthat we've seen the ranks of
homeschoolers explode,especially since COVID, because
more and more parents are makingthese sacrifices, because
they're saying you know, I don'tget these years forever, I have
a limited amount of time toinfluence these children.
I'm sorry, did that cut outagain?
It's okay.
I don't know if the internet'sthat good or I don't know.
I haven't had that before, butI don't know.
(16:01):
Yeah, right now it's okay.
Sheila Nonato (16:03):
No, problem no problem.
We'll work with Holy Spirit.
Help us with the internet thing.
And I also now would like toturn to your book, because I
think again it will resonatewith a lot of mothers and women,
this idea that we sort of areholding onto, the idea of
(16:23):
perfectionism, and in the bookyou mentioned about social
perfectionism and spiritualperfectionism, and can you tell
us what is the difference andhow did you navigate
perfectionism in your own faithand in your own life?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (16:37):
Well, I think the main definition that
I use for perfectionism isaddiction to control, trying to
achieve flawlessness in somehuman endeavor, which we know as
human beings.
We're never going to achieveflawlessness in any.
It's that, it's that addictionto control, to wanting to
control things.
And you know, I think socialperfectionism is much more
(16:58):
obvious and common today,especially in the age of social
media, and what I mean by thatterm is comparing ourselves to
others, competing constantlywith others, you know, comparing
our real lives to theairbrushed versions of the lives
of others and and trying to seeif our choices are measuring up
our careers are measuring up,our kids are measuring up, even
our faith.
Spiritual perfectionism I speakabout more in the heart of
(17:22):
perfection.
All of these different forms ofperfectionism crop up and
they're all interlinked.
But I do think spiritualperfectionism is at the heart of
these, because it's aboutimporting that same distorted
thinking into our relationshipwith God and believing on some
level that we need to earn God'slove.
And of course, we know, as goodCatholics, we're not supposed
to believe that and we shouldknow better.
I know all the stuff I'msupposed to be doing, so it's
(17:44):
not okay when I mess up and alittle bit of a sense of I've
got to do, do do all of thesethings for God to love me, our
(18:11):
other relationships.
It can start to make faith seemlike more of a slog and
something that, if gradually youknow, you can burn out a little
bit, because God seems verydemanding and distant, and then
we can also portray thatdistorted vision to our children
.
If God is kind of thistaskmaster in the sky, always
checking off our poor qualitiesand mistakes, then we can
inadvertently pass on thatvision to our children.
So there's a lot of ways thatthis can manifest.
(18:32):
But I think it is actuallyparticularly a danger for those
who are serious about theirfaith, because they don't want
to be slackers and because theworld around us is so lax about
so many things that it'stempting to go overboard in the
other direction and startthinking we got to do this all
ourselves, on the basis purelyof our own strength and virtue,
which is always a dead end,because we know that, you know,
(18:54):
it's God's grace that gets usanywhere.
Good.
Any good in us begins withGod's grace and we have to
cooperate with that grace.
We can't be lazy and do nothing, but we also can't take it upon
ourselves to make ourselveslittle gods who are going to be
flawless without God's helpevery day, His help daily.
Sheila Nonato (19:15):
And in the book you also mentioned St Ignatius
and desolation and hisconsolation.
What can we learn from him inhelping us to sort of recover
from our spiritual perfectionisttendencies?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (19:38):
saints .
I think there's eight of them,eight saints and a heretic, or
maybe it's seven saints and oneheretic.
And one of them is Ignatius ofLoyola, because of course many
of us know of him as the founderof the Jesuits and an expert on
discernment, discerning God'swill.
He has his spiritual examine.
He left the church and then hissteps for discerning God's will
.
They really have never beentopped in terms of the church's
offerings to those of us tryingto make important decisions.
(19:59):
So we know all of that.
A lot of people kind of forget,or maybe don't know that
Ignatius was in a sense aperfectionist himself.
He struggled a lot in the earlydays after his conversion with
regret over his past sins shamefor those and a lot of despair.
When he would examine his ownlingering sinfulness he could
see his weakness, and the moreclearly he saw it, the more he
(20:22):
got kind of locked in thisscrupulous mindset, this despair
, this sense that you know allof life is just going to be this
uphill slog.
I'll never get it right, andyou know I should feel shame and
disgust for everything thatI've ever been and done wrong.
And so we even got to a pointat one point where he was kind
of sitting out over a pit andthinking maybe I should just
(20:45):
throw myself into that pit andend it all.
So this is where Ignatius was.
And then he began to payattention to the movement of
spirits that he had started tonotice upon his conversion.
But he went deeper into thatduring his time in Manresa, when
he was more by himself in thecave and started to notice
where's this coming from?
Where is this despair and thisdesolation coming from?
(21:06):
Is that really of God?
And as he began to examinethose feelings he started to
notice that in fact, thosefeelings of just total
self-hatred and recriminationand despair that he could ever
do anything worthwhile for God,that was coming from the evil
one and it was something heneeded to resist openly and
(21:27):
intentionally.
And at the same time, when hewas in a state of consolation
where he's feeling hope for thefuture and love God's love he
needed to be ready for thosetimes of desolation.
So he talks a lot in hiswritings about how our spiritual
life is, this constant movementthrough these different states
where sometimes we are feelingGod's love and we're seeing the
(21:49):
future of what God wants us todo very clearly and we feel a
great deal of support.
And then there are other timeswhere we're really mired in
darkness.
And God sometimes allows that,so that we don't get too proud,
so we don't start thinking it'sall on me.
But it's also a test.
It's a challenge of our faith,to challenge us to be faithful
to God even when we don't feelgood.
(22:11):
And so all of this helpedIgnatius get away from this idea
that he had to do it allhimself and that if he was
feeling good it was all him, andif he was feeling lousy
everything was awful, and startto lean more into trust in God,
which is really what conqueringperfectionism comes down to.
It comes down to saying you areGod and I am not.
I can't do anything withoutyour help, and yet you offer me
(22:35):
enough grace that I cancooperate with that grace and do
amazing things, if that's yourwill for me.
But always I need you and Isurrender to you.
Sheila Nonato (22:45):
And another saint that you mentioned in the book
is Saint Benedict, and hementioned the idea of balance
and moderation Ora et Labora: pray and work, and you call this (22:52):
undefined
a blueprint for biblicalbalance.
What can we learn from St.
Benedict?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (23:03):
Well, I think St.
Benedict is a great saint fortoday.
My family and I just had thechance to go to Italy recently
and we got to see Monte Casinoand Subiaco, where he was in his
cave kind of for several years,and then Monte Casino, where he
built his great monastery, andhe is really coming back in
vogue for a lot of differentreasons.
There was a popular book someyears ago "Benedict Option got
(23:26):
people talking about him andI've liked St Benedict for a
very long time, but I appreciatehim more and more as a
homeschooling mom and living inthis culture.
That is, in some ways, gonepretty crazy and his idea was,
instead of always trying towrench the culture back around
to what you want it to be.
You know, we kind of build fromwhat we have.
We use our own resources andcreativity and institutions to
(23:50):
kind of build up a culture acounterculture, I guess you
could say that can sustain thefaithful and pass on the faith,
especially when there are darktimes around.
And his issue his focus ratheron balance was really important
to me, especially as I wasthinking about how to balance
all the things that a lot ofwomen do today.
(24:11):
You know my desire to spend alot of time with my kids, to
homeschool them and yet to stillkeep a hand in writing, still
be doing speaking occasionally,still be writing books.
And for a long time, when I wasyounger, I thought this notion
of Benedict and balance seemed alittle bit lame.
You know, moderation, it justsort of seemed like the
consolation prize of the virtues.
Not very interesting.
But as I've gotten older I'vecome to really appreciate that
(24:35):
this sense of balancing ourlives and that our lives as a
whole need to be balanced, butalso that our days need to have
a rhythm, that we need routines,that we need structures in
place that support what we valuemost.
How beneficial that is.
The whole rule of St Benedict isvery simple.
It's not very long and it'svery in some ways addresses very
mundane matters.
You know when we should get upto pray, how long we should pray
(24:56):
, and then we need a, and it'svery, in some ways addresses
very mundane matters.
You know when we should get upto pray, how long we should pray
, and then we need a recreationperiod, we need a work period.
But at the heart of it is thisvery, as I said, biblical idea
that we are human creatures whoare made of body and soul.
We have to acknowledge all theparts of ourselves if we're to
(25:16):
live a balanced life that honorsGod all the parts of ourselves,
if we're to live a balancedlife that honors God.
We can't just go a thousandmiles an hour in one direction,
say work, and then leteverything else go or completely
let our health go while we'rechasing some other ideal or even
be the domestic goddess andcompletely leave out the other
parts of our life that areimportant.
So there's always this sense oftrying to find what it is God's
(25:41):
calling us to do in the moment,and one of the things I found
most helpful for me as a mom wasthis idea of obedience to the
demands of the present moment,that a lot of times what God is
calling for is not so much thegreat deed that we all are
looking for we're going to do,the great, dramatic deed, but
(26:01):
rather to be obedient in themoment to the inspirations of
the Holy Spirit and to thedemands of our vocation in the
moment, right in this moment.
I would rather read thisarticle, but I've got this child
standing here who wants to tellme about his day.
That's more important In themoment.
That's where the obedience iscalled for and you know another
moment it might be.
You know, finishing thesweeping is the act of obedience
(26:24):
rather than doing the amazingtask that's more dramatic.
You know, I always love thestory of the Benedictine monk
who was asked you know, if theworld was ending in five minutes
and Jesus was coming back?
And he's in the middle of hissweeping.
You know what would you do?
And he said well, I just keepsweeping because that's what I'm
supposed to be doing right now.
It's very simple and it cansound even a little boring, but
(26:44):
when you're struggling with aworld that is out of balance and
with so many lives that are outof balance, benedict really
starts to seem more like aprophet and like someone we need
to hear from more today.
Sheila Nonato (26:54):
Thank you to Colleen Carroll Campbell for
this week's episode, Part 1 ofthe Heart of Perfection.
From Colleen we have learnedhow to distinguish between the
world's view of perfection andGod's call to perfection in His
love.
In our fallen world, we seeperfection as performance.
What have we achieved?
In God's view of perfection, hesees the purity of our
(27:18):
intention, regardless of whetherwe achieved what we set out to
do perfectly.
We allow God to work in us.
We allow the Holy Spirit towork in us to perfect us.
It's not necessarily what we do, but how we love.
God sees our heart, the purityof our heart, the love which we
(27:42):
give to others, howeverimperfectly, for when we
surrender our worldlyperfectionism to God, we allow
our souls to be perfected in Hisunconditional and eternal love.
Join us for part two, where wecontinue to explore the heart of
perfection, with Colleen CarolCampbell as we learn more about
(28:04):
the saints and how to build aGod-inspired, Christ-led and
counter-cultural haven in ourhomes amidst the chaos of the
world that favors performanceover substance.
Thank you and God bless.
Co-Host (28:26):
If you like our podcast , please like, share and
subscribe.
You can also leave us a commentand a review, please.
We'd love to hear from you.
Sheila Nonato (28:46):
Thank you for listening to the Veil and.
Co-Hosts (28:47):
Armour podcast.
I invite you to share this withanother Catholic Mom today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
It's that addiction to control, to
wanting to control things.
And I think socialperfectionism is much more
obvious and common today,especially in the age of social
media.
And what I mean by that term iscomparing ourselves to others,
competing constantly with others, you know, comparing our real
lives to the airbrushed versionsof the lives of others and
trying to see if our choices aremeasuring up our careers are
(00:21):
measuring up our kids aremeasuring up even our face.
If our choices are measuring upour careers are measuring up,
our kids are measuring up evenour faith.
Spiritual perfectionism I speakabout more.
In the heart of perfection.
All of these different forms ofperfectionism crop up and
they're all interlinked.
But I do think spiritualperfectionism is at the heart of
these, because it's aboutimporting that same distorted
thinking into our relationshipwith God and believing on some
(00:43):
level that we need to earn God'slove.
And of course we know, as goodCatholics we're not supposed to
believe that and we should knowthat God's love is a gratuitous
gift and all is grace.
Sheila Nonato (00:53):
The Church is not a museum for saints, it's a
hospital for sinners, was one ofSt Augustine's most repeated
quotes.
Yet even many of the saints andthe holy men and women of the
Bible had their weaknesses anddoubts, just like us, before or
even after their conversiontowards God.
In Scripture and in theaccounts of the saints we read
(01:18):
how they were not perfect,unlike the unblemished Lamb of
God, or the absolute purity ofHis Mother Mary, or the
perfection of God Himself in theHoly Trinity.
In the Bible, jesus alsoteaches us that we must be
perfect, as our Heavenly Fatheris perfect.
What does perfection mean indaily life?
(01:41):
Is it what the world sees asperfect Beauty, intellect, money
, power, status?
Is perfection in motherhood andwomanhood about how we look,
how clean and tidy our homes are, how our children behave in
(02:03):
church?
Is it about a carefully curatedway of living?
In this episode, we will lookat perfection in the material
world and compare it tospiritual perfection.
There will be a distinctionbetween God's definition of
perfection and perfectionism,the latter being something that
can develop into unhealthyhabits and spiritual practices.
(02:24):
Thing that can develop intounhealthy habits and spiritual
practices.
This week's guest, ColleenCaroll Campbell, is an
award-winning journalist, abest-selling Catholic author and
a former presidentialspeechwriter.
Her career achievements areglowing and exceptional, earning
the respect and admiration ofmany, a role model to women and
(02:45):
those aspiring to greatness intheir motherly and womanly
vocation.
Yet she shares in her latestbook, "he Heart of Perfection,
that our definition ofperfection is different from
what God is calling us to Let goof material perfection and
embrace God's perfect love.
Let's hear Colleen explain whatwe can learn from the saints
(03:09):
and what is at the true heart ofperfection.
Hello, Sisters in Christ,Welcome to this week's episode,
and I am humbled and honoured towelcome Colleen Caroll Campbell
to our podcast this week, and Ijust wanted to continue to ask
(03:30):
for your prayers.
I thank you for your prayersfor our podcast, apostolate, and
I would also like to ask you toplease bear with us during the
technical difficulties that wehad this week.
Technical difficulties that wehad this week, but I truly
(03:51):
believe that the power ofColleen's message can overcome
these technical glitches.
Sometimes God's timing isactually perhaps perfect, in
that this episode aboutperfection and perfectionism has
little technical glitches inthe beginning.
But isn't that fitting formotherhood, in that we rarely
(04:11):
ever find ourselves in theperfect situation or the perfect
time to do things.
Many times we just have topower through and with God's
grace, with God's help, we areable to complete our tasks.
We're able to do motherhood,however imperfectly, but to the
(04:32):
best of our abilities, with ourbest intentions, with our
children, the best interests ofour family in mind, and trying
to offer, and trying to offerour little sacrifices and daily
crosses for our own families,for ourselves, for whoever might
need that prayer, that offering, that day and, as they say, the
(04:57):
perfect is not exactly the sameas God's, but God is able to
turn our little imperfectionsinto something beautiful and
(05:21):
something redeeming andsomething transformative.
Thank you again for joining usand let's hear Colleen share
what is the true heart ofperfection.
Hello and welcome to the Veiland Armour podcast.
This is your host, SheilaNonato.
(05:42):
I'm a stay-at-home Mom and afreelance Catholic journalist.
Seeking the guidance of theHoly Spirit and the inspiration
of Our Lady, I strive to tellstories that inspire, illuminate
and enrich the lives ofCatholic women, to help them in
living out our vocation ofraising the next generation of
leaders and saints.
Co-Hosts (06:01):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (06:10):
Good afternoon.
We have as our guest ColleenCarol Campbell.
I wanted to have you as ourguest today.
Maybe start off with a prayer,please.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:21):
Okay, great, so you had mentioned
maybe saying the Hail Marytogether.
Sheila Nonato (06:25):
Yeah, of course yes, In the name of the Father
and the Son and of the HolySpirit, Amen.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:33):
Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is
with Thee.
Sheila Nonato (06:35):
The Lord is with thee.
Co-Host (06:35):
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb Jesus.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (06:43):
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us
sinners, now and at the hour ofour death.
Amen.
Sheila Nonato (06:49):
Father in the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen, and
I'm very excited to welcome youtoday because I read your book
the New Faithful in 2002, justafter World Youth Day in Toronto
and yeah, so it's always been adream to interview you one day,
and I'd like to introduce youto our listeners.
Yes, and I'd like to introduceyou to our listeners and I'm
(07:11):
sure they already know who youare, but I just wanted to let
them know, remind them again,that you are an award-winning
author, print and broadcastjournalist and a former
presidential speechwriter.
Journalist and a formerpresidential speechwriter.
Colleen's books include hercritically acclaimed
journalistic study, the NewFaithful, her special memoir my
Sister the Saints, which won twonational awards and has been
(07:34):
published in five languages, andher award-winning new release,
the Heart of Perfection how theSaints Taught Me to Trade my
Dream of Perfect for Gods.
Colleen has written for the NewYork Times, The Washington Post
, Christianity Today, Americaand National Review, and
appeared on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, ABC News, PBS, NPR and EWTN,
(08:00):
where she hosted her owntelevision and radio show for
eight years.
A former speechwriter forPresident George W Bush, an
editorial writer and op-edcolumnist for the St.
Louis Post-Dispatch, colleen isthe recipient of two honorary
doctorates and numerous otherawards and fellowships.
She speaks to audiencesworldwide and lives on the
(08:20):
central coast of California withher husband and four children
whom she homeschools, and youcan visit her online at
colleen-campbell.
com and for today's podcast.
I would love to discuss yourbook, "he Heart of Perfection,
and would like to take a look atthe two parts perfection and
then the heart.
But before we dive in, I waswondering if you could look at a
(08:42):
section of the book where youwrote about you know all of
these career achievements thatyou have attained.
You wrote about you had agrowing dissatisfaction with
journalism and that you sensedquote a call to trade the higher
profile, chase, the pack mediawork that impressed others for
the deeper, more demandingcreative work that attracted me.
(09:04):
Others for the deeper, moredemanding creative work that
attracted me, the work ofeducating my children and
writing books that could changelives, not just mine, unquote.
And can you please discuss,explain to us what was this sort
of struggle, your internalstruggle, that we were having?
I'm sure a lot of women havehad the struggle about their
career and their family.
Can you please sort of let usin on how that process went?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (09:27):
Sure, I had a long road to motherhood.
My husband and I prayed forchildren for several years
before God blessed us withchildren and that journey
through infertility was a bigpart of what I wrote about in my
memoir, "y Sisters, the Saints.
So motherhood didn't come easyfor me, pretty central in my
(09:53):
life really ever since collegeand before college I was one of
those kids who had a resume inmiddle school.
So I don't like that and Ialways loved to write and I
loved journalism and politicsand acting and drawing and
anything creative and out therein the world to connecting with
people, finding stories, lookingat deeper issues.
I even dabbled in philosophy.
I started work toward adoctorate in philosophy at one
point and then left that when Igot the job to when I got the
(10:15):
offer to write speeches forPresident Bush in the White
House.
So I'd been kind of doing a lotof different things and one
constant, I would say, in mycareer and discernment of that
was how I'd often be doingsomething that everyone else
thought was really cool and moreimportant, and I would start
feeling this nudge from the HolySpirit to try something new,
(10:38):
something maybe I wasn't asskilled at or just didn't have
the experience with or didn'thave the amazing opportunity
with yet, and then kind of stepout in faith and try some new
things.
So it was interesting allthrough my career.
You know, I would leave onething and people would say, oh,
that's crazy, because that'ssuch a neat opportunity, and
then eventually I get to doingsomething else that I thought
(11:01):
would even more impactful forGod.
I mean with plenty of, you know, dips and turns in the roads,
like anyone has.
But so I kind of learned earlyin my career, in other words,
that you know God's ways are notour ways and sometimes when we
listen to those nudges, we canwind up in exciting places doing
amazing things for God that wewouldn't have orchestrated
(11:21):
ourselves if it had been all upto me to plan it myself.
So as my family is growingpretty rapidly I mean I had four
children four and under at onepoint is growing pretty rapidly
I mean I had four children fourand under at one point.
So anyway, long story short isI'd been feeling this tug for a
while to go deeper.
I'd grown pretty tired offollowing the news cycle and
(11:42):
being on that cycle and I'dgradually taken steps out of
that.
You know I started in dailyjournalism, newspaper journalism
, and gradually I'd movedfurther and further away from
that news cycle.
But now, with littles at homeand wanting to spend a lot of
time with them, it made moresense than ever to me to dive
deeper and specifically into therealm of spiritual writing and
creative writing.
You know who's up and who'sdown and what's going on and
(12:04):
what are the arguments and who'swinning the arguments.
But I really think what changespeople's lives even more are our
stories, witnesses of faith,and more that contemplative
aspect and creative aspect ofour writing and our literature.
(12:25):
So that's the direction Iwanted to go.
The direction I wanted to goand you know it's scary always
to step out of something youknow how to do, that you've been
successful at, and trysomething new that you might not
be so successful at.
But I did feel God nudging mein that direction.
And I also felt a very strongpull toward homeschooling my
children, which is neversomething I thought I'd be doing
, but it wound up being a reallyimportant part of my life and
(12:48):
our family's life.
So I credit God for giving methose nudges, because I
certainly wouldn't have come upwith these ideas on my own.
Sheila Nonato (12:57):
And when you mentioned going that route and
embracing motherhood andhomeschooling, I know a lot of
women might feel sort of regretor you know what could have been
.
But are we looking at it thewrong way, that we are
sacrificing something greaterfor something less than?
I know that there are somepeople I do homeschool my kids
(13:19):
as well, and you know maybe somepeople will be.
Why are you wasting your?
You have three degrees.
What are you doingHomeschooling your children when
you can be earning more workingoutside, working outside?
Are we looking at this through?
the wrong lens that motherhoodis somehow not as important a
(13:39):
vocation as working outside thehome.
Colleen Carroll Campbell (13:43):
Well, certainly, I think the work that
we do with our children, it'stop in terms of the importance
of it.
I don't think this looks thesame for every woman.
I don't think every singlewoman is called to stay home
full-time or to homeschool.
I understand that each womankind of has to discern with her
family and with Jesus, what itis he's calling her to do, and I
(14:04):
think a lot of women like youand I, sheila, you know, combine
some form of key hand in ourwork with homeschooling.
So I don't think it's superblack and white, And I, Sheila,
you know, combine some form ofkeep hand in our work with
homeschooling.
So I don't think it's superblack and white, which is
sometimes how the world paintsit.
You know, you're all in oryou're all out, you know, and
most women want to keep a handin, but they also want to spend
a lot of their best hours withkids, and so for me,
(14:27):
homeschooling has been a greatgift.
Like I said, it wasn't somethingI pictured myself doing.
I figured it was just a careerkiller for people who didn't
maybe have much of a career tostart with.
So they didn't mind and I'vereally changed my tune Partly.
You know, we started it just asa lark no-transcript too badly,
(14:57):
so I'll just try that.
And then at the beginning, itbecame a real way of life and a
real focal point for our familyand a way that I could say in a
very organic way instead of, youknow, on Sunday, or a prayer
before meals in the eveningswhich is good, something that
was all day long and when theyhad those really big theological
(15:17):
questions, I was the one toanswer them instead of whoever
happened to be standing in frontof them during their eight-hour
school day.
The socializing too they becamevery close friends with each
other and I could, you know,have more say over the kids we
were hanging out with and whatthey were doing, and we could
kind of build a morecountercultural intentional list
with the help of homeschooling.
(15:39):
And I think that's the reasonthat we've seen the ranks of
homeschoolers explode,especially since COVID, because
more and more parents are makingthese sacrifices, because
they're saying you know, I don'tget these years forever, I have
a limited amount of time toinfluence these children.
I'm sorry, did that cut outagain?
It's okay.
I don't know if the internet'sthat good or I don't know.
I haven't had that before, butI don't know.
(16:01):
Yeah, right now it's okay.
Sheila Nonato (16:03):
No, problem no problem.
We'll work with Holy Spirit.
Help us with the internet thing.
And I also now would like toturn to your book, because I
think again it will resonatewith a lot of mothers and women,
this idea that we sort of areholding onto, the idea of
(16:23):
perfectionism, and in the bookyou mentioned about social
perfectionism and spiritualperfectionism, and can you tell
us what is the difference andhow did you navigate
perfectionism in your own faithand in your own life?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (16:37):
Well, I think the main definition that
I use for perfectionism isaddiction to control, trying to
achieve flawlessness in somehuman endeavor, which we know as
human beings.
We're never going to achieveflawlessness in any.
It's that, it's that addictionto control, to wanting to
control things.
And you know, I think socialperfectionism is much more
(16:58):
obvious and common today,especially in the age of social
media, and what I mean by thatterm is comparing ourselves to
others, competing constantlywith others, you know, comparing
our real lives to theairbrushed versions of the lives
of others and and trying to seeif our choices are measuring up
our careers are measuring up,our kids are measuring up, even
our faith.
Spiritual perfectionism I speakabout more in the heart of
(17:22):
perfection.
All of these different forms ofperfectionism crop up and
they're all interlinked.
But I do think spiritualperfectionism is at the heart of
these, because it's aboutimporting that same distorted
thinking into our relationshipwith God and believing on some
level that we need to earn God'slove.
And of course, we know, as goodCatholics, we're not supposed
to believe that and we shouldknow better.
I know all the stuff I'msupposed to be doing, so it's
(17:44):
not okay when I mess up and alittle bit of a sense of I've
got to do, do do all of thesethings for God to love me, our
(18:11):
other relationships.
It can start to make faith seemlike more of a slog and
something that, if gradually youknow, you can burn out a little
bit, because God seems verydemanding and distant, and then
we can also portray thatdistorted vision to our children
.
If God is kind of thistaskmaster in the sky, always
checking off our poor qualitiesand mistakes, then we can
inadvertently pass on thatvision to our children.
So there's a lot of ways thatthis can manifest.
(18:32):
But I think it is actuallyparticularly a danger for those
who are serious about theirfaith, because they don't want
to be slackers and because theworld around us is so lax about
so many things that it'stempting to go overboard in the
other direction and startthinking we got to do this all
ourselves, on the basis purelyof our own strength and virtue,
which is always a dead end,because we know that, you know,
(18:54):
it's God's grace that gets usanywhere.
Good.
Any good in us begins withGod's grace and we have to
cooperate with that grace.
We can't be lazy and do nothing, but we also can't take it upon
ourselves to make ourselveslittle gods who are going to be
flawless without God's helpevery day, His help daily.
Sheila Nonato (19:15):
And in the book you also mentioned St Ignatius
and desolation and hisconsolation.
What can we learn from him inhelping us to sort of recover
from our spiritual perfectionisttendencies?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (19:38):
saints .
I think there's eight of them,eight saints and a heretic, or
maybe it's seven saints and oneheretic.
And one of them is Ignatius ofLoyola, because of course many
of us know of him as the founderof the Jesuits and an expert on
discernment, discerning God'swill.
He has his spiritual examine.
He left the church and then hissteps for discerning God's will
.
They really have never beentopped in terms of the church's
offerings to those of us tryingto make important decisions.
(19:59):
So we know all of that.
A lot of people kind of forget,or maybe don't know that
Ignatius was in a sense aperfectionist himself.
He struggled a lot in the earlydays after his conversion with
regret over his past sins shamefor those and a lot of despair.
When he would examine his ownlingering sinfulness he could
see his weakness, and the moreclearly he saw it, the more he
(20:22):
got kind of locked in thisscrupulous mindset, this despair
, this sense that you know allof life is just going to be this
uphill slog.
I'll never get it right, andyou know I should feel shame and
disgust for everything thatI've ever been and done wrong.
And so we even got to a pointat one point where he was kind
of sitting out over a pit andthinking maybe I should just
(20:45):
throw myself into that pit andend it all.
So this is where Ignatius was.
And then he began to payattention to the movement of
spirits that he had started tonotice upon his conversion.
But he went deeper into thatduring his time in Manresa, when
he was more by himself in thecave and started to notice
where's this coming from?
Where is this despair and thisdesolation coming from?
(21:06):
Is that really of God?
And as he began to examinethose feelings he started to
notice that in fact, thosefeelings of just total
self-hatred and recriminationand despair that he could ever
do anything worthwhile for God,that was coming from the evil
one and it was something heneeded to resist openly and
(21:27):
intentionally.
And at the same time, when hewas in a state of consolation
where he's feeling hope for thefuture and love God's love he
needed to be ready for thosetimes of desolation.
So he talks a lot in hiswritings about how our spiritual
life is, this constant movementthrough these different states
where sometimes we are feelingGod's love and we're seeing the
(21:49):
future of what God wants us todo very clearly and we feel a
great deal of support.
And then there are other timeswhere we're really mired in
darkness.
And God sometimes allows that,so that we don't get too proud,
so we don't start thinking it'sall on me.
But it's also a test.
It's a challenge of our faith,to challenge us to be faithful
to God even when we don't feelgood.
(22:11):
And so all of this helpedIgnatius get away from this idea
that he had to do it allhimself and that if he was
feeling good it was all him, andif he was feeling lousy
everything was awful, and startto lean more into trust in God,
which is really what conqueringperfectionism comes down to.
It comes down to saying you areGod and I am not.
I can't do anything withoutyour help, and yet you offer me
(22:35):
enough grace that I cancooperate with that grace and do
amazing things, if that's yourwill for me.
But always I need you and Isurrender to you.
Sheila Nonato (22:45):
And another saint that you mentioned in the book
is Saint Benedict, and hementioned the idea of balance
and moderation Ora et Labora: pray and work, and you call this (22:52):
undefined
a blueprint for biblicalbalance.
What can we learn from St.
Benedict?
Colleen Carroll Campbell (23:03):
Well, I think St.
Benedict is a great saint fortoday.
My family and I just had thechance to go to Italy recently
and we got to see Monte Casinoand Subiaco, where he was in his
cave kind of for several years,and then Monte Casino, where he
built his great monastery, andhe is really coming back in
vogue for a lot of differentreasons.
There was a popular book someyears ago "Benedict Option got
(23:26):
people talking about him andI've liked St Benedict for a
very long time, but I appreciatehim more and more as a
homeschooling mom and living inthis culture.
That is, in some ways, gonepretty crazy and his idea was,
instead of always trying towrench the culture back around
to what you want it to be.
You know, we kind of build fromwhat we have.
We use our own resources andcreativity and institutions to
(23:50):
kind of build up a culture acounterculture, I guess you
could say that can sustain thefaithful and pass on the faith,
especially when there are darktimes around.
And his issue his focus ratheron balance was really important
to me, especially as I wasthinking about how to balance
all the things that a lot ofwomen do today.
(24:11):
You know my desire to spend alot of time with my kids, to
homeschool them and yet to stillkeep a hand in writing, still
be doing speaking occasionally,still be writing books.
And for a long time, when I wasyounger, I thought this notion
of Benedict and balance seemed alittle bit lame.
You know, moderation, it justsort of seemed like the
consolation prize of the virtues.
Not very interesting.
But as I've gotten older I'vecome to really appreciate that
(24:35):
this sense of balancing ourlives and that our lives as a
whole need to be balanced, butalso that our days need to have
a rhythm, that we need routines,that we need structures in
place that support what we valuemost.
How beneficial that is.
The whole rule of St Benedict isvery simple.
It's not very long and it'svery in some ways addresses very
mundane matters.
You know when we should get upto pray, how long we should pray
(24:56):
, and then we need a, and it'svery, in some ways addresses
very mundane matters.
You know when we should get upto pray, how long we should pray
, and then we need a recreationperiod, we need a work period.
But at the heart of it is thisvery, as I said, biblical idea
that we are human creatures whoare made of body and soul.
We have to acknowledge all theparts of ourselves if we're to
(25:16):
live a balanced life that honorsGod all the parts of ourselves,
if we're to live a balancedlife that honors God.
We can't just go a thousandmiles an hour in one direction,
say work, and then leteverything else go or completely
let our health go while we'rechasing some other ideal or even
be the domestic goddess andcompletely leave out the other
parts of our life that areimportant.
So there's always this sense oftrying to find what it is God's
(25:41):
calling us to do in the moment,and one of the things I found
most helpful for me as a mom wasthis idea of obedience to the
demands of the present moment,that a lot of times what God is
calling for is not so much thegreat deed that we all are
looking for we're going to do,the great, dramatic deed, but
(26:01):
rather to be obedient in themoment to the inspirations of
the Holy Spirit and to thedemands of our vocation in the
moment, right in this moment.
I would rather read thisarticle, but I've got this child
standing here who wants to tellme about his day.
That's more important In themoment.
That's where the obedience iscalled for and you know another
moment it might be.
You know, finishing thesweeping is the act of obedience
(26:24):
rather than doing the amazingtask that's more dramatic.
You know, I always love thestory of the Benedictine monk
who was asked you know, if theworld was ending in five minutes
and Jesus was coming back?
And he's in the middle of hissweeping.
You know what would you do?
And he said well, I just keepsweeping because that's what I'm
supposed to be doing right now.
It's very simple and it cansound even a little boring, but
(26:44):
when you're struggling with aworld that is out of balance and
with so many lives that are outof balance, benedict really
starts to seem more like aprophet and like someone we need
to hear from more today.
Sheila Nonato (26:54):
Thank you to Colleen Carroll Campbell for
this week's episode, Part 1 ofthe Heart of Perfection.
From Colleen we have learnedhow to distinguish between the
world's view of perfection andGod's call to perfection in His
love.
In our fallen world, we seeperfection as performance.
What have we achieved?
In God's view of perfection, hesees the purity of our
(27:18):
intention, regardless of whetherwe achieved what we set out to
do perfectly.
We allow God to work in us.
We allow the Holy Spirit towork in us to perfect us.
It's not necessarily what we do, but how we love.
God sees our heart, the purityof our heart, the love which we
(27:42):
give to others, howeverimperfectly, for when we
surrender our worldlyperfectionism to God, we allow
our souls to be perfected in Hisunconditional and eternal love.
Join us for part two, where wecontinue to explore the heart of
perfection, with Colleen CarolCampbell as we learn more about
(28:04):
the saints and how to build aGod-inspired, Christ-led and
counter-cultural haven in ourhomes amidst the chaos of the
world that favors performanceover substance.
Thank you and God bless.
Co-Host (28:26):
If you like our podcast , please like, share and
subscribe.
You can also leave us a commentand a review, please.
We'd love to hear from you.
Sheila Nonato (28:46):
Thank you for listening to the Veil and.
Co-Hosts (28:47):
Armour podcast.
I invite you to share this withanother Catholic Mom today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's Be Brave, let's Be Boldand Be Blessed together.
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