Happy Thanksgiving and A Blessed start to the Advent Seasons!
In this week's episode, Sheila Nonato speaks with "Veils by Lily" owner and founder, Lily Wilson, about the return of the practice of veiling among some Catholic women in church.
Let's go behind the veil as we explore the renewed tradition of veiling among Catholic women with Catholic entrepreneur and mother of seven, Lily Wilson, the visionary behind "Veils by Lily," a company that has been making and selling veils for 14 years. Lily says she has seen a remarkable increase in interest in veiling, and the independent company's sales have increased from about 30 to 900 during their busy seasons, including Advent.
Thank you, Lily, for joining Veil + Armour this week!
For more info on Veils by Lily and their Black Friday, Cyber Monday and Advent Sale, please visit:
https://veilsbylily.com
Lily joins Sheila via video interview from Missouri. Discover how this ancient practice is gaining traction once again through a blend of historical reverence and modern expression. Lily shares her personal story of embracing veiling as a means of celebrating her dignity and reverence for the divine, all while making these beautiful symbols accessible to women of all styles through her business.
Unpack the layers of meaning behind this cherished tradition and learn why it has never been about inferiority, but about the unique dignity and role of women in the tapestry of creation. As we address cultural shifts and misunderstandings, especially in the wake of Vatican II, you'll gain fresh insights into how practices like the Latin Mass and veiling are finding new life among young adults eager for deeper spiritual connections. Our conversation also highlights the symbolism found in the Song of Songs, revealing parallels between love, faith, and the sacred relationship between Christ and the Church.
Our discussion takes a personal turn with reflections on the National Eucharistic Congress, where the veil's role in spiritual life was celebrated by many. Hear inspiring stories that underline the virtues of humility and strength, embodied by Mary, Our Blessed Mother, and how these resonate in today's world. Let's dive into the conversation as we explore the growing interest in sacred practices, why veiling can be an expression of a woman's feminine identity rooted in Christ. Lily makes a compelling case that veiling is not just as a custom from the past, and how it can be a vibrant expression of faith today, for the women who choose to veil in church.
Chapter Markers:
00:00:02
Reviving the Practice of Veiling
00:05:53
Tradition and Meaning of Veiling
00:22:52
The Symbolism and Beauty of Veiling
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https://veilandarmour.com
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https://www.sheilanonato.com
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What resonated with you the most about this episode? Feel free to email us and let us know!
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sheila Nonato (00:02):
As Advent begins, we reflect upon the gift of
Christmas, the gift of JesusChrist, our Saviour.
The story of the Holy Birthbegins with Mary's heroic "es to
become the mother of the Savior.
In art, we see Mary wearing aveil a custom of Jewish brides
(00:22):
before meeting the groom acustom of Jewish brides before
meeting the groom.
In our Christian tradition, theveil evokes the image of the
bride embodying thecountercultural values of purity
, modesty and holiness.
We learn in Scripture about themajestic Ark of the Covenant,
made of acacia wood and coveredin pure gold inside and out,
(00:45):
built according to God's carefulinstructions to Moses.
We also learn how the veilgracefully separates the holy
place from the innermost holy ofholies, the dwelling place of
God on earth.
How is this connected to OurLady's veil?
As Catholics, we see Mary asthe new Ark of the Covenant, the
(01:07):
living shrine of the Word ofGod.
In the same way, she is veiledin art to showcase that she is
carrying the Holy of Holies inher womb.
The practice of veiling inchurch fell out of favor in the
1960's.
Yet what Catholic women used towear before Vatican II is now
making a comeback in somechurches.
(01:28):
It is not a scene from theHandmaid's Tale, but the scene
of the Nativity in Bethlehemthat is fueling the renewed
practice.
Let's hear from Lily Wilson,owner of "Veils by Lily, explain
why women are choosing to veilagain and how this can be part
of one's spiritual armor offaith and a reflection of Mary's
(01:50):
feminine genius.
Hello and welcome to the Veiland Armor podcast.
This is your host, sheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
(02:12):
Our Lady, I strive to tellstories that inspire, illuminate
and enrich the lives ofCatholic women, to help them in
living out our vocation ofraising the next generation of
leaders and saints.
Co-Host (02:24):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (02:31):
So welcome Lily Wilson, owner of "Veils by Lily,
and you are speaking to us fromKimswick, missouri.
Is that correct?
That's correct, okay, that'sawesome.
Thank you for joining us, andmay we please start off with a
prayer?
Okay, okay, okay, in the nameof the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen, hail Mary, full of grace,the Lord is with thee.
(02:52):
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, prayfor us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
.
Amen.
Well, thank you so much, lily,and I've been waiting to
interview you.
I've been trying to read up onveiling.
(03:12):
This is new to me and I've seena lot of actually young women
veiling at my church.
My church has both Novus Ordoand the traditional Latin Mass,
but I've seen younger womendoing this, adopting this kind
of traditional practice, and I'mjust wondering can you tell us
about?
(03:38):
So, first of all, when did youstart veiling?
Lily Wilson (03:39):
Well, thank you for having me first of all, and I
started veiling back in.
I believe it was either late2009 or early 2010.
It was something that reallyspoke to my heart.
We were just kind of discussingit with some friends on a Yahoo
email group and a friendstarted kind of sharing about it
, and it really spoke to me.
(04:00):
As far as you know, the churchhas always veiled what is sacred
and you know, I felt that saidsomething about our dignity as
women, something that we oftenlose as we go through life
because of whatever happens tous and things like that, and so
it was something that I reallyfelt like I wanted to rediscover
(04:23):
and embrace both my own dignityas a daughter of God and also
just reverence for the presenceof God truly present in the
Blessed Sacrament and all themysteries.
You know that we celebrate atMass as well, so, yeah, that's
wonderful, and your company.
Sheila Nonato (04:44):
When did it start ?
And what do you offer women whoare interested in veiling at
Mass?
Lily Wilson (04:51):
We started in August of 2010.
So we've been in business forover 14 years now and we offer
all sorts of chapel veils,infinity veils.
We make some here ourselves, inour shop here, and we import
(05:12):
some as well, from we have someEurope.
We have some more affordableimports as well, and we just
want to make it as accessible aspossible, hoping for every
woman to find a veil that reallyfits their unique style, their
personality, and just to make iteasy and convenient for women
to be able to take up thispractice, which has been so
(05:35):
fruitful for myself, myrelationship with God, and we've
seen just so many women talkabout it as well.
It's really had such an impact.
Sheila Nonato (05:44):
So beautiful and on your website, if you click on
a link, it'll give you a freedownloadable, I guess,
questionnaire.
Common questions about veiling.
Do you mind if we go throughsome of them?
Absolutely Not at all.
Okay, yeah, so the first one,why catholic women wear chapel
veils.
I think you touched upon that,but I guess, when, when you're
(06:07):
talking about, uh, veilingsomething that is holy, I'm just
thinking about the ark of thecovenant and back to our jewish,
Jewish tradition, Jewish roots,where they did do that, where
the ark of the covenant wassomething that was so holy that
they had to put a veil, justkind of not separate so much but
to revere.
Or maybe they did separate, butto revere, yeah, what is of God
(06:31):
and then the people of God.
Can you explain?
Yeah, again, why do womenspecifically veil?
Lily Wilson (06:38):
So there are multiple layers of meaning to
the veil and, like specificreasons, may have changed with
different times, but the essenceof it is something that women
have done since the time of StPaul, both at prayer and during
(07:00):
the Liturgy, and, if you find itin 1 Corinthians 11, verses 3
to 15.
And so you know, there's awhole theology of the veil, but
it focuses on the fact that weare in the presence of God, and
when we are a prayer, a personalprayer, we're in the presence
(07:21):
of God, but in particular in thechurch, because the church
houses the real presence ofChrist in the Eucharist and the
Tabernacle, and that's a veryparticular way that God is
present with us.
He chose to leave us histangible reminder of his
(07:43):
presence in the species of breadand wine, and so that is a very
, very powerful thing for ourfaith, because it is something
that we can see, but at the sametime, it requires faith to
believe that it is the body,blood, soul and divinity of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and so it'salways focused on the idea of
(08:08):
this being done when in prayerand during the liturgy, and so
it's something special that wedo during those times,
specifically and really when wego into church.
It is a place unlike any otheron earth.
You find there the real,substantial presence of our Lord
in the Eucharist, and that'ssomething that that's a reality
(08:31):
that is just so transcendent andat the same time so important
to enter into, that the veilhelps us to embrace those
mysteries, to honour thepresence of Jesus, to say
something about who we are aswomen, vessels of life, both of
(08:51):
natural life and supernaturallife, and it's just a way of, I
guess, how would you say itrevering, I guess, the divine
order established by God of therole of women in creation.
I would say that for a long timethere was a misunderstanding of
the veil, where some peoplethought that it was a sign that
(09:12):
women were second-class citizens, because, you know, you have
God, men and women, you know,and they're lower.
But it's simply a reflection ofthe order created by God.
But it doesn't mean that ourdignity is any less than men.
We are all created in the imageand order created by God, but
it doesn't mean that our dignityis any less than men.
We are all created in the imageand likeness of God and women
have a very unique dignity byvirtue of our ability to carry
(09:36):
both human life and supernaturallife of God, because of how we
are made in God's image andlikeness and how he made us
different from men in certainrespects.
Sheila Nonato (09:47):
Yes, and when you're saying about the dignity
of women, I have been readingthe New Faithful.
It was written maybe more than20 years ago by Colleen Carol
Campbell.
She was talking about why youngadults are embracing Christian
orthodoxy, and this was 20 yearsago.
So now it seems like we'reseeing the fruits of that
searching, of that longing fortruth and tradition and how, at
(10:12):
this moment in our culture, Ijust I think it was Time
Magazine that had the cover ofthe child-free life.
I think that was the cover, andit seems like, as you were
saying, it's sort of right nowwhat we're seeing is a rejection
of this culture of life that we, maybe young people, are
wanting to recover that aspectof their femininity instead of
(10:37):
rejecting the purpose that Godcreated for women.
Like, not all women can havechildren, but they can be
spiritual mothers.
That's also another aspect.
But yeah, I just sort of seethis according to the book, that
this trend that started 20years ago is bearing fruit.
And again, the Associated Pressthey had an article about the
Latin Mass and how there wereyoung people there and people
(11:00):
were all surprised or astonished.
What was your reaction when yousaw that in the news?
Lily Wilson (11:09):
You know, I thought it just speaks of the fact that
truth will never go away andyou know the truth will always
speak for itself, no matter howmuch we depart from the truth,
because the truth is true.
You know there will always bethat seed of desire for truth in
(11:33):
our hearts and that's going tomanifest in these kinds of
movements of young peopleflocking to tradition, to what
we know deeply in our hearts isgood, true and beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (11:48):
And to go back to one of the common questions.
So for Catholics who attend theNovus Ordo, which is the common
, what did the church say afterVatican II?
Did it say to do away with theveils?
Lily Wilson (12:01):
No.
So that was a misconception.
I think what really happened isthat people were expecting the
church to say something aboutveils, because the culture had
kind of reached this almostconclusion that veils were
irrelevant, that veils didn'thave anything to bring to our
(12:22):
faith, that they were, you know,completely useless and possibly
even harmful, because theybelieved that they were a sign
that women were inferior to menand all those kinds of things.
And so from thatmisunderstanding and it was a
collective misunderstandingreally people assumed that
Vatican II was going to talkabout veils and say that they
(12:45):
were not required anymore.
Now what actually happened isthat it became kind of like fake
news as we know it today.
Basically, there was a pressconference and a priest who was
involved in Vatican II was askedif they were going to do away
with the veils and he respondedno, we're not discussing veils.
(13:09):
And the press took that to meanveils were not required anymore
and they published all sorts ofheadlines to the effect.
And then the mainstream viewbecame veils are not required
anymore.
But I think at that point manywomen had already stopped
wearing veils and again it wasbased on that lack of
(13:32):
understanding of the truemeaning of the veil.
And so, in a way, I kind of feellike you know, perhaps it was a
way of waking us up to the factthat this was something that
required further understanding,catechesis, to really be able to
(13:53):
integrate it into our lives.
But of course, that wouldn'tcome until much, much later
decades later really, when womenare starting to take it back up
, and there have been numerousarticles in the press about the
Chapel veil, and so that isstarting to happen.
Now we're getting morewidespread coverage of the
(14:17):
meaning of the veil, why youngpeople especially are starting
to embrace it, and that's reallywhat needed to happen.
It needs to be education aboutthe meaning of the veil, the
meaning of so many devotionsthat we really need as human
beings, because we're not justspirit, we're body and spirit,
body and soul, and so what we dowith our bodies really does
(14:40):
affect what happens in our souls, and that's one of the things
that the veil does.
Sheila Nonato (14:46):
And another popular question is why don't
men wear veils?
Lily Wilson (14:51):
Right, and so the whole point of the veil is to
make an act of humility beforeGod.
For men, that act of humilityis to remove whatever they have
on their heads.
So if even today is seen as anact of respect to when, let's
say, when you go into church, aman removes his hat, and so the
(15:14):
specific action of humblingthemselves in the presence of
God is for men to remove theirhats.
And just going a little bitmore deeply into that, you know
there's a difference between theway that men and women see hair
.
So obviously I got my hair donefor this interview today.
(15:36):
You know, hair is a woman'sglory and for men, clearly, it's
not that.
And in fact many men, as theygrow older, they lose their hair
, they become bald, and so whenthey reveal that baldness, you
know which is, you know somewhatwell, it's, I would say,
(15:56):
humbling.
You know, showing theirweakness, I guess, in the
presence of God, their weakness,I guess, in the presence of God
.
That for them is a way ofhumbling themselves before God.
And you know, and I have even aspecific story I remember, so I
did, I got my hair done today,and so we're not in church, but
(16:18):
you know it would make sensethat if I were to go to Mass
right now, that going to Masswould not be an opportunity to
socially show off my hair.
So covering it, you know, is anact of saying it's not about me,
lord, it's about you.
And I had a similar experiencea few years ago when I had just
(16:38):
gotten a haircut and I foundmyself like, oh, I love my new
haircut and I'm so excited.
Now we're going to go to Massand all my friends are going to
see it.
And I'm like, " I love my newhaircut and I'm so excited.
Now we're going to go to massand all my friends are going to
see it.
And then I'm like, wait asecond, I'm going to have my
hair covered because I'm goingto be wearing a veil.
Nobody's going to see that.
But that was the whole point.
It's not about me, it's aboutJesus, it's about what happens
(16:59):
at mass.
Sheila Nonato (17:06):
I've never heard it explained like that before.
But yeah, that totally makessense.
And it's true, women do careabout hair.
Hair is it's part of our publicpresentation of ourselves.
And, yeah, it's true, men notso much.
And if you look at the pricesof haircuts between men and
women there's a big difference.
And I think that's one of thereasons is that there is value.
(17:26):
There's more value to a woman'sappearance in public than men.
And I guess what you're talkingabout humility.
And I'm going to read just aquick passage.
I know this is a controversialone that is often misunderstood,
and when I used to be a lectorand I read this passage, I
almost wanted to laugh becausethis was back in my feminist
(17:46):
days.
Ephesians 5, 21, be subject toone another out of reverence for
Christ, and wives be subject toyour husbands as to the Lord,
for the husband is the head ofthe wife, as Christ is the head
of the church, his body, and ishimself its savior.
And when I got married I wasthinking, oh, you know, I didn't
want to get married beforebecause I thought I was again in
(18:09):
this feminist kind of mindsetthat I don't want to be
subjugated to a man or tosomebody.
But as I'm reading more,learning more about my faith,
I'm sort of learning tounderstand that I subject myself
to God, and so does my husband,and he is leading our family,
(18:30):
but he is also subject tosomebody else, like God, so it's
not like he's just doingwhatever he wants.
So that's why the whole thingabout discernment is also very
crucial for women to pick theright man, so the right leader
for the family.
But yeah, so this quote was inthe handout that you have.
(18:50):
You said husbands love yourwives as Christ loves the church
and the bridegroom and thebride.
You know, there's this imagery,this beautiful imagery, where
the veil comes in and kind ofcompletes the whole picture.
Can you sort of talk about howthis again the submission it's
(19:10):
not a submission to self or to aperson, but it is a submission
to God, and how that is actuallypart of our faith and part of
how we sort of nourish andsustain our faith, is that we
focus.
When we have the veil, we arefocusing our attention or having
(19:31):
other people focus theirattention to God and not to
ourselves.
Can you sort of talk a littlebit about that?
Lily Wilson (19:52):
What's coming to mind right now is the whole idea
of thy will be done, of lettinggo of our own will to assent to
God's will.
God's will is always for ourgood.
God is not this either distantGod or demanding God?
And it's so important for us tobe clear on who God really is,
the fact that God's heart is toredeem and restore and bring
(20:16):
light and love into our lives.
That's who God is.
And so, when we look at it fromthat perspective, who doesn't
want to submit themselves, tolet go of their own will and
open ourselves up to the will ofsuch a loving, loving God?
(20:39):
And so, in that sense, thatveil is a way of saying not my
will but your will, Lord, Isurrender myself to you.
And in the same way, you know,god created man and woman in
that order, and it is, you know,god is a God of order.
When we have order in our lives, we're able to flourish.
(21:02):
Order in our lives, we're ableto flourish.
And you know even, you know,companies have leadership, and
there is, you know, the militarygovernments.
There is an order to things,and when things are in order,
we're able to really become whowe are meant to be.
And so that kind of that orderestablished by God, of God, man,
(21:26):
woman.
It's not there to make ourlives miserable or say that
we're less than no.
It's meant for our good, for usto flourish as human beings, in
our full humanity, but also inour identity as children of God.
And so that's where you seethat veil in the marriage
ceremony, because men arerepresentative of Christ.
(21:52):
And so in another passage, St.
Paul says husbands, "ove yourwives as Christ loved the church
.
And what did Christ do?
He died for her.
And what did Christ do?
He died for her.
And so who wouldn't submit tosomeone who would just die for
you?
Isn't that what like?
(22:12):
As women, we just that's whatwe want.
We want somebody to die for us.
We want to receive that kind oflove.
Jesus died for us, but then ourhusbands are called to die for
us as well, and in turn we areasked to honor that sacred order
and we're asked to let go ofour own will for the will of God
(22:34):
, for holiness, for sanctity,and to bring God's love into the
world through our very bodies,both physically and spiritually.
So it's just a beautiful thing.
And the last thing I want to sayspecifically about the wedding
(22:56):
imagery is that this issomething that is in the Song of
Songs, and, as you mentionedwhat you read, that the
relationship between man andwoman, like husband and wife, is
an image of the relationshipbetween Christ and the church,
as we said.
So men are representative ofChrist and women are
(23:19):
representative of the church, arepresentative of the church.
But also it's a mirror of therelationship between God and the
soul, to where, you know, godgives and the soul receives, and
then, when the soul receives,the soul is led to give back to
God, and then it becomes thisexchange of love of giving and
(23:41):
receiving, and that is how webecome who we are truly meant to
be, because then you know, inthe same way that the
relationship between God and thesoul is meant to be, you know
the nature of receiving, givingand receiving.
If you really think about it,that's what happens between the
father and the son.
(24:02):
The father gives himselfcompletely to the son, the son
gives himself back to the Father, and that exchange of love is
the Holy Spirit and it bringslife, and so that's really what
we're meant to do, how we'remeant to become who we are meant
to be.
So it's just, it's a beautiful,beautiful thing.
Sheila Nonato (24:23):
Absolutely.
And yeah, I just got tears onmy eyes because I just started,
when you're talking about theself-giving love, like that's
that's what my husband doesevery day, that's what my dad
had been doing, that you know.
Yeah, that's, that's reallybeautiful.
That's what Our Lord did for us.
Yes, and I'm getting emotionalagain just because of how
beautiful that message is, and Ithink that message gets drowned
(24:46):
out in the world because, youknow, we are supposed to be
self-made women.
We don't need anybody yeah, wedon't need anyone to save us,
have seven kids.
Lily Wilson (24:55):
One is away at college and our youngest is
almost three and it isexhausting.
He works all day and then hehelps me so much.
I mean, he's there for thefamily, he helps get the kids
(25:16):
ready for bed, and I could seeit in him.
His eyes were closing, but herehe is being kind and patient.
His eyes were closing, but herehe is being kind and patient,
our loving to a very demandingalmost three-year-old.
And he's doing it with justgentleness and patience and I
see his eyes just falling andI'm just in awe.
(25:38):
This man is dying for us, youknow, and it was just such a
beautiful moment and my heartwas just exploding with
gratitude and it made me thinkof this man is being Christ to
all of us and dying on the crossfor us, absolutely.
Sheila Nonato (25:56):
And you were also at the Eucharistic Congress,
the National EucharisticCongress in Indianapolis.
Yes, and that was also another.
When I saw the pictures and Iwas reading the articles again,
heartstrings were being tuggedbecause I was seeing, as you
were saying, a return to truthor the search for truth.
(26:17):
Anyway, what was yourexperience there and how did
people receive the veil?
Lily Wilson (26:23):
Oh, my goodness, I could talk for hours about this.
It was such a grace-filled fewdays.
We met so many of our longtimecustomers who came to us and
(26:48):
expressed their gratitude forwhat we're doing because the
veil has had such a deep impactin their spiritual lives, in
their call to let go of theirown will and just the beautiful
fruits that that has brought forthem the peace, the serenity,
the peace, the serenity, the joy.
And you know, it was reallyinteresting because my daughters
I have four daughters and threeboys my daughters were all
(27:12):
there helping me at my booth andthey got a chance to witness
all those conversations with allthese women and they were blown
away.
So I have not been one to likemake them wear a veil at Mass,
but just from them witnessingthose conversations, they
decided they wanted to wear aveil at Mass and a couple of
(27:36):
them have been doing it.
The other two, I think, kind oflike they kind of left it.
They're younger and they forgetit and that kind of thing.
But it really made an impact onthem.
You know what they heard and itwas just so beautiful to meet
the women that we have beencorresponding with, that we've
been serving this whole entiretime and it was amazing that's
(28:00):
not even to say all the gracesthat I received from just, you
know, going to the talks in theevening, because the booths were
closed when the main sessionswere going on in the evening, so
we were able to go to those andthose were just phenomenal and
I received very specific gracesfrom that as well.
So I am just so grateful forthe whole Eucharistic Congress
(28:23):
and just to be a part of it wasamazing.
Was it your first time?
My first time at a EucharisticCongress, something like that.
Yeah, yes, especially that big.
Yes, we were very, very busy.
We did not expect to have somany women come visit our booths
.
It was nonstop and women werejust hungry for this, just
(28:45):
really hungry and reallyembracing it, and it was
beautiful to see.
Sheila Nonato (28:50):
And was it different ages?
Who was coming and what weretheir questions?
What were they interested infinding out?
Lily Wilson (28:58):
So I would say that most women had already heard
about this and heard the meaning.
Those who didn't picked up ourlittle information cards and
they read it and they were like,oh wow, this is really
beautiful.
But we really had.
We had all ages, we had momsand little girls, we had
husbands buying for their wives,we had older women buying for
(29:22):
their whole families.
There was this one particularencounter with some ladies and
they were like I'm going to buythis for so-and-so and I'm going
to buy this one for so-and-soand this one for so-and-so, and
we were very, very well received.
So it was beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (29:40):
That's awesome, and do you have any veils to
show, or so you can explain tous or I?
I have mine, but it's not thegreatest.
I I'm actually looking savingup to get one of yours, but I
don't know if you have any onhand or we could just talk about
it.
You know, I've had mine and Iknow this to me, um, before
before we.
Lily Wilson (30:01):
We talked this morning, but it slipped my mind,
so I had thought to bring aspecific one that I wanted to
show.
But here is the veil that I'vebeen wearing.
This is the soft floral laceinfinity veil, and so I usually
(30:27):
wear it around my neck and itcomp compliments my outfit,
which is really nice outside ofchurch, but then when I go into
church I slip it over my head itcovers my beautifully done hair
that is not there to show off,and I have a little clip up here
that snaps open up close and ithelps to hold it in place to
(30:49):
where I don't have to worryabout it.
And there it is and it just, youknow it blends in with my hair.
I always wear mostly wear black.
I like my hair blending inbecause it doesn't feel like I'm
, you know, standing out.
But other women have otherpreferences and it's totally
fine, you know what?
But this is what I'mcomfortable with and so this is
(31:11):
what I wear Now.
For the longest time I wouldwear a triangle veil, so not a
loop, which is the infinity veil, and but I but I gave it away
(31:43):
to a friend and then I couldn'tfind another one.
I found a rectangle veil whichcan be kind of like a wrap, and
I wrapped it around myself andit was really interesting
because it was almost as if Icould feel the arms of the
Father wrapped around me.
And then I decided it was ablue veil, because that's what I
found at home and I'm not bigon colors, I like black.
So I came here to our store topick out a new veil and I found
this black one, which was greatand it was an infinity.
It goes around and it wasperfect because it also, you
know, gives me that sense of thearms of the father around me,
(32:06):
you know, as his beloveddaughter, and it just, you know,
it stuck.
So now I'm an infinity veilgirl, even though, you know, I
never saw myself using thesekinds of veils.
But here I am.
Sheila Nonato (32:19):
Yes, it's beautiful and you don't have to
worry about it falling.
Mine is, to be honest, I wentto this craft store and it was
the end piece and basically Ihave to like secure it.
So I, like I said I am savingup for one of your veils but
like, yeah, it's like an endpiece that I put on my head and
it does fall off sometimes, butanyway, but like there are
(32:40):
different lengths you mentionedright, Like the chapel veil goes
to your shoulders.
Lily Wilson (32:45):
So a chapel veil is just any covering for church,
like as we saw in the OldTestament.
The veil of the temple was notlace, it was actually several
inches thick, and so a veil istechnically a covering, and so a
chapel veil would be justanything that covers.
(33:06):
Now there are some that arelonger, some are shorter.
This one is the infinity style.
Then we have like triangles,wraps, you know rectangles, and
so you can call them chapelveils.
Some people call them mantillas.
We call this one an infinityveil and typically the triangles
we call them mantillas.
(33:26):
And that comes from Spain.
Spain has a very long traditionof producing lace mantillas for
women.
Sheila Nonato (33:37):
And for somebody who has never worn a veil, what
would be?
Does it matter what they startwith?
What should they be looking for?
Lily Wilson (33:45):
So it's really something that they are
comfortable with, and so if theywant to match their hair color,
I would say go with that.
If you're drawn to match anoutfit, go with that.
If you want to match yourcomplexion and you know some
cool tones, warm tones, you'rewelcome to do that as well.
It used to be that older womenwould wear darker colors or
(34:10):
black to church and youngerwomen would wear lighter colors
or white.
Nowadays, it's not so much thecase.
Everybody is wearing what justfits their personality, their
own style, the best.
But I would say that the mostimportant thing is just to be
comfortable in it, and one ofthe things that women do like
(34:30):
about the infinity veil is thatit can be worn as part of their
outfit, after mass, as a scarf,and it just kind of blends in
and it doesn't make a fuss, youknow.
So it's very versatile.
Sheila Nonato (34:45):
Okay, beautiful.
And does it also matter if it'slace or not?
Lily Wilson (34:51):
It does not matter whether it's lace or not, as
long as it's a covering.
That's the whole point is tocover.
Sheila Nonato (35:00):
And I guess you were mentioning earlier.
So traditionally it used to beum darker colors for married
women.
Is that correct?
Lily Wilson (35:07):
Yes, black specifically does it matter
specifically?
Sheila Nonato (35:11):
Yes, that's in tradition and white is for
single women.
Is that correct?
Lily Wilson (35:15):
for single women or younger women.
Sheila Nonato (35:18):
Okay.
So for children my child, wheredid her veil go?
It's white with some blue trim.
Like is it okay that it has theblue trim?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutelyOkay.
Lily Wilson (35:31):
Yeah, and I think you know in some places where
there are specific traditions ofwhat you should do, you know
you'll kind of get a sense forit when you look around at
church, but you'll also noticeyou know married women wearing
white as well, and I've seenlittle girls wearing black, you
know.
So it's not so much the coloras it is just the act of
(35:51):
reverence and humility andacknowledgement of God's
presence.
Sheila Nonato (35:57):
Okay, that's beautiful.
So another question on thecommon questions is what about
hats or other types of headcoverings?
Is that okay or so?
Lily Wilson (36:07):
I think that hats are okay in the sense that
they're a you know they're, theystill are a symbolic, symbolic
way of having something overyour head.
But I have seen some commentcommentaries that say that the
purpose of the covering is tocover the woman's hair, so
that's not on full on display.
(36:28):
The hair is the woman's gloryand so a hat is suitable.
But it may not be the best wayto kind of convey that reverence
by hiding oneself and again,it's not hiding out of shame or
negativity or anything like that, it's just, you know, as an act
(36:50):
of reverence and humility, tosay that you know it's about God
and not about us.
Sheila Nonato (36:56):
Okay, and I don't know if you've seen the trailer
there's a new Netflix movieabout Mother Mary it's just
called, I think, Mary, and so wein our I guess our history, we
see Mother Mary veiled as wascustomary and how.
What is the link to Our Ladyand the veiling and how we are?
(37:17):
We're imitating her in, in asense, when we also do that at
Mass.
Lily Wilson (37:21):
Right, and I think the essence of that is what Mary
said at the Annunciation Thywill be done.
It goes in direct contrast tothe original sin of Adam and Eve
, of the sin of the fallenangels who said I will not serve
.
And it's really about lettinggo of our own will and embracing
(37:42):
God's will, which Mary did sofaithfully.
She embraced her God-givendignity, her vocation in life,
and we are called to do the same.
And so, yeah, the veil says youknow, I am the servant of the
Lord.
Be it done unto me according tothy will.
And I think that that conveysthat particular sentiment very,
(38:03):
very well, and we definitelywant to imitate our mother.
We know that that's the path totrue happiness, both in this
life and the life to come, andso we're encouraged to embrace
that.
Sheila Nonato (38:17):
Yes, absolutely.
And I asked my husband whatquestion would you ask if you
were able to interview Lily andask her?
And his question was he says wehave to teach people how to
treat us.
And how does wearing a veilteach men how to treat women?
Lily Wilson (38:35):
That is a great question and I think this is
something that when a man sees awoman wearing a veil,
intuitively they understand thatthis woman is not to be
objectified, that she knows hertrue worth and she's going to
claim that for herself in herlife and in her relationships.
(38:57):
So I think it just conveys thatvery, very well and men
understand that.
And I think you know, yes,there has been a need for
education on the veil, but Ithink that people in general,
when they see a woman wearing aveil, they, deep down in their
hearts, they know what it's for,they know it's an act of
(39:19):
reverence, they know that ithighlights an act of reverence,
they know that it highlights thedignity of the woman, and those
are all things that are reallyvery needed in our culture today
, because so much of that hasbeen lost and we need to claim
it back for ourselves.
Sheila Nonato (39:35):
And his second question is related to what you
just said how does failing teachour young girls to become
strong women?
Lily Wilson (39:43):
Yeah, so it makes me think of the strength of Mary
, that hers was quiet strength,that, by her humility, is how
she crushed the head of theserpent.
And so our humility is going tobe our strength, is going to be
our weapon against evil in theworld.
(40:04):
So you don't fight evil withevil.
You fight evil with goodness,with truth, with beauty, with
kindness, gentleness,self-control, all the gifts and
fruits of the Holy Spirit, andthat's our true strength.
Our strength is in the Lord,and that is where it is to be
found and nowhere else really.
Sheila Nonato (40:27):
And finally, have you seen you were mentioning at
the Eucharistic Congress therewere a lot of women interested
in knowing or purchasing a veil.
Have you seen increasedinterest over the 14 years in
your business?
Lily Wilson (40:37):
Oh my goodness, yes , yes, an incredible increase.
We started out shipping about30 to 60 orders when I was doing
it out of the corner of mykitchen and now we're averaging
around 900 orders a month,including our busy seasons, you
know.
So it goes up and downdepending on the season, but our
average is about 900 orders andit's just really beautiful to
(41:01):
see.
It's really amazing anddefinitely a gift for us here as
well, and all the ladies whowork here, because it's been
just a real gift for us to beable to serve in this way.
Sheila Nonato (41:13):
And is Advent one of the busy seasons?
Do you see sort of an uptick?
Absolutely.
Lily Wilson (41:17):
Yes, yes, just leading up to Christmas, some
women like to honor the seasonby wearing a purple veil.
It's just a way ofparticipating more fully with
the liturgical year.
Sheila Nonato (41:33):
And can you direct us if somebody listening
a Catholic woman is listeningright now and interested in
exploring the veil, where canthey find you?
Lily Wilson (41:44):
We are at veilsbylilycom, and that's
L-I-L-Y one L in the middle?
Sheila Nonato (41:51):
Amazing, and was there anything else that you
wanted to add that I might havemissed?
Lily Wilson (41:56):
Oh, just thank you for for having me.
It's a joy to be able to speakof all these things, because
it's made such a difference inmy own life and in the lives of
other women as well, and so it'sbeen a joy thank you and god
bless you and your ministry andyour family and your business
and I I really I have beenlooking forward to speaking with
(42:17):
you.
Sheila Nonato (42:17):
So.
So I was just telling myhusband oh, guess what, stop me
to tomorrow.
So I really appreciate yourtime and your witness and giving
us all this information so thatwe can explore for ourselves
whether this is something for us.
So Black Friday is coming up andAdvent season we're trying to
prepare ourselves interiorly aswell, and also all the things
(42:39):
that go with preparations forAdvent.
What do you have for women forBlack Friday?
Is there anything coming upwith your shop?
Lily Wilson (42:47):
Yes, we are going to have an unprecedented 20% off
.
We do try to keep our prices aslow as possible, so it's hard
for us to discount very much,but we I don't think we've ever
done 20% off your order andthat's what we're going to offer
from Black Friday through CyberMonday, and we are also going
(43:09):
to have a little 12 days ofChristmas sale, from the 1st of
December to the 12th, withdifferent items from our store.
Sheila Nonato (43:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you very much again, LilyThank you have a great day.
Take care you too.
Thank you so much.
Bye-bye.
Thank you to Lily Wilson forgiving us a glimpse into why
women are starting to veil againat Mass and how they see it as
a way of expressing theirfeminine identity in Christ and
an expression of their newfoundfreedom and confidence in this
(43:40):
identity as daughters of God.
On this Thanksgiving weekendand the beginning of Advent, we
would like to express oursincerest thank you to each and
every one of you, oursubscribers and listeners, for
helping us to reach the top fiveof Good Pod's chart in the
categories of Motherhood and TopCatholic podcasts, which we are
(44:02):
humbled and honoured to be onthe same podcast list as Fr Mike
Schmitz and Bishop Barron.
We pray that each and every oneof you has a blessed Advent and
Holy Christmas.
Thank you, and listening to theVeil and Armour podcast.
Co-Host (44:34):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's be brave, let's be boldand be blessed together.
As Advent begins, we reflect upon the gift of
Christmas, the gift of JesusChrist, our Saviour.
The story of the Holy Birthbegins with Mary's heroic "es to
become the mother of the Savior.
In art, we see Mary wearing aveil a custom of Jewish brides
(00:22):
before meeting the groom acustom of Jewish brides before
meeting the groom.
In our Christian tradition, theveil evokes the image of the
bride embodying thecountercultural values of purity
, modesty and holiness.
We learn in Scripture about themajestic Ark of the Covenant,
made of acacia wood and coveredin pure gold inside and out,
(00:45):
built according to God's carefulinstructions to Moses.
We also learn how the veilgracefully separates the holy
place from the innermost holy ofholies, the dwelling place of
God on earth.
How is this connected to OurLady's veil?
As Catholics, we see Mary asthe new Ark of the Covenant, the
(01:07):
living shrine of the Word ofGod.
In the same way, she is veiledin art to showcase that she is
carrying the Holy of Holies inher womb.
The practice of veiling inchurch fell out of favor in the
1960's.
Yet what Catholic women used towear before Vatican II is now
making a comeback in somechurches.
(01:28):
It is not a scene from theHandmaid's Tale, but the scene
of the Nativity in Bethlehemthat is fueling the renewed
practice.
Let's hear from Lily Wilson,owner of "Veils by Lily, explain
why women are choosing to veilagain and how this can be part
of one's spiritual armor offaith and a reflection of Mary's
(01:50):
feminine genius.
Hello and welcome to the Veiland Armor podcast.
This is your host, sheilaNonato.
I'm a stay-at-home mom and afreelance Catholic journalist,
seeking the guidance of the HolySpirit and the inspiration of
(02:12):
Our Lady, I strive to tellstories that inspire, illuminate
and enrich the lives ofCatholic women, to help them in
living out our vocation ofraising the next generation of
leaders and saints.
Co-Host (02:24):
Please join us every week on the Veil and Armour
podcast, where stories comealive through a journalist's
lens and mother's heart.
Sheila Nonato (02:31):
So welcome Lily Wilson, owner of "Veils by Lily,
and you are speaking to us fromKimswick, missouri.
Is that correct?
That's correct, okay, that'sawesome.
Thank you for joining us, andmay we please start off with a
prayer?
Okay, okay, okay, in the nameof the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit.
Amen, hail Mary, full of grace,the Lord is with thee.
(02:52):
Blessed art thou amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of thy
womb, jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God, prayfor us sinners, now and at the
hour of our death.
Amen, in the name of the Fatherand the Son and the Holy Spirit
.
Amen.
Well, thank you so much, lily,and I've been waiting to
interview you.
I've been trying to read up onveiling.
(03:12):
This is new to me and I've seena lot of actually young women
veiling at my church.
My church has both Novus Ordoand the traditional Latin Mass,
but I've seen younger womendoing this, adopting this kind
of traditional practice, and I'mjust wondering can you tell us
about?
(03:38):
So, first of all, when did youstart veiling?
Lily Wilson (03:39):
Well, thank you for having me first of all, and I
started veiling back in.
I believe it was either late2009 or early 2010.
It was something that reallyspoke to my heart.
We were just kind of discussingit with some friends on a Yahoo
email group and a friendstarted kind of sharing about it
, and it really spoke to me.
(04:00):
As far as you know, the churchhas always veiled what is sacred
and you know, I felt that saidsomething about our dignity as
women, something that we oftenlose as we go through life
because of whatever happens tous and things like that, and so
it was something that I reallyfelt like I wanted to rediscover
(04:23):
and embrace both my own dignityas a daughter of God and also
just reverence for the presenceof God truly present in the
Blessed Sacrament and all themysteries.
You know that we celebrate atMass as well, so, yeah, that's
wonderful, and your company.
Sheila Nonato (04:44):
When did it start ?
And what do you offer women whoare interested in veiling at
Mass?
Lily Wilson (04:51):
We started in August of 2010.
So we've been in business forover 14 years now and we offer
all sorts of chapel veils,infinity veils.
We make some here ourselves, inour shop here, and we import
(05:12):
some as well, from we have someEurope.
We have some more affordableimports as well, and we just
want to make it as accessible aspossible, hoping for every
woman to find a veil that reallyfits their unique style, their
personality, and just to make iteasy and convenient for women
to be able to take up thispractice, which has been so
(05:35):
fruitful for myself, myrelationship with God, and we've
seen just so many women talkabout it as well.
It's really had such an impact.
Sheila Nonato (05:44):
So beautiful and on your website, if you click on
a link, it'll give you a freedownloadable, I guess,
questionnaire.
Common questions about veiling.
Do you mind if we go throughsome of them?
Absolutely Not at all.
Okay, yeah, so the first one,why catholic women wear chapel
veils.
I think you touched upon that,but I guess, when, when you're
(06:07):
talking about, uh, veilingsomething that is holy, I'm just
thinking about the ark of thecovenant and back to our jewish,
Jewish tradition, Jewish roots,where they did do that, where
the ark of the covenant wassomething that was so holy that
they had to put a veil, justkind of not separate so much but
to revere.
Or maybe they did separate, butto revere, yeah, what is of God
(06:31):
and then the people of God.
Can you explain?
Yeah, again, why do womenspecifically veil?
Lily Wilson (06:38):
So there are multiple layers of meaning to
the veil and, like specificreasons, may have changed with
different times, but the essenceof it is something that women
have done since the time of StPaul, both at prayer and during
(07:00):
the Liturgy, and, if you find itin 1 Corinthians 11, verses 3
to 15.
And so you know, there's awhole theology of the veil, but
it focuses on the fact that weare in the presence of God, and
when we are a prayer, a personalprayer, we're in the presence
(07:21):
of God, but in particular in thechurch, because the church
houses the real presence ofChrist in the Eucharist and the
Tabernacle, and that's a veryparticular way that God is
present with us.
He chose to leave us histangible reminder of his
(07:43):
presence in the species of breadand wine, and so that is a very
, very powerful thing for ourfaith, because it is something
that we can see, but at the sametime, it requires faith to
believe that it is the body,blood, soul and divinity of our
Lord Jesus Christ, and so it'salways focused on the idea of
(08:08):
this being done when in prayerand during the liturgy, and so
it's something special that wedo during those times,
specifically and really when wego into church.
It is a place unlike any otheron earth.
You find there the real,substantial presence of our Lord
in the Eucharist, and that'ssomething that that's a reality
(08:31):
that is just so transcendent andat the same time so important
to enter into, that the veilhelps us to embrace those
mysteries, to honour thepresence of Jesus, to say
something about who we are aswomen, vessels of life, both of
(08:51):
natural life and supernaturallife, and it's just a way of, I
guess, how would you say itrevering, I guess, the divine
order established by God of therole of women in creation.
I would say that for a long timethere was a misunderstanding of
the veil, where some peoplethought that it was a sign that
(09:12):
women were second-class citizens, because, you know, you have
God, men and women, you know,and they're lower.
But it's simply a reflection ofthe order created by God.
But it doesn't mean that ourdignity is any less than men.
We are all created in the imageand order created by God, but
it doesn't mean that our dignityis any less than men.
We are all created in the imageand likeness of God and women
have a very unique dignity byvirtue of our ability to carry
(09:36):
both human life and supernaturallife of God, because of how we
are made in God's image andlikeness and how he made us
different from men in certainrespects.
Sheila Nonato (09:47):
Yes, and when you're saying about the dignity
of women, I have been readingthe New Faithful.
It was written maybe more than20 years ago by Colleen Carol
Campbell.
She was talking about why youngadults are embracing Christian
orthodoxy, and this was 20 yearsago.
So now it seems like we'reseeing the fruits of that
searching, of that longing fortruth and tradition and how, at
(10:12):
this moment in our culture, Ijust I think it was Time
Magazine that had the cover ofthe child-free life.
I think that was the cover, andit seems like, as you were
saying, it's sort of right nowwhat we're seeing is a rejection
of this culture of life that we, maybe young people, are
wanting to recover that aspectof their femininity instead of
(10:37):
rejecting the purpose that Godcreated for women.
Like, not all women can havechildren, but they can be
spiritual mothers.
That's also another aspect.
But yeah, I just sort of seethis according to the book, that
this trend that started 20years ago is bearing fruit.
And again, the Associated Pressthey had an article about the
Latin Mass and how there wereyoung people there and people
(11:00):
were all surprised or astonished.
What was your reaction when yousaw that in the news?
Lily Wilson (11:09):
You know, I thought it just speaks of the fact that
truth will never go away andyou know the truth will always
speak for itself, no matter howmuch we depart from the truth,
because the truth is true.
You know there will always bethat seed of desire for truth in
(11:33):
our hearts and that's going tomanifest in these kinds of
movements of young peopleflocking to tradition, to what
we know deeply in our hearts isgood, true and beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (11:48):
And to go back to one of the common questions.
So for Catholics who attend theNovus Ordo, which is the common
, what did the church say afterVatican II?
Did it say to do away with theveils?
Lily Wilson (12:01):
No.
So that was a misconception.
I think what really happened isthat people were expecting the
church to say something aboutveils, because the culture had
kind of reached this almostconclusion that veils were
irrelevant, that veils didn'thave anything to bring to our
(12:22):
faith, that they were, you know,completely useless and possibly
even harmful, because theybelieved that they were a sign
that women were inferior to menand all those kinds of things.
And so from thatmisunderstanding and it was a
collective misunderstandingreally people assumed that
Vatican II was going to talkabout veils and say that they
(12:45):
were not required anymore.
Now what actually happened isthat it became kind of like fake
news as we know it today.
Basically, there was a pressconference and a priest who was
involved in Vatican II was askedif they were going to do away
with the veils and he respondedno, we're not discussing veils.
(13:09):
And the press took that to meanveils were not required anymore
and they published all sorts ofheadlines to the effect.
And then the mainstream viewbecame veils are not required
anymore.
But I think at that point manywomen had already stopped
wearing veils and again it wasbased on that lack of
(13:32):
understanding of the truemeaning of the veil.
And so, in a way, I kind of feellike you know, perhaps it was a
way of waking us up to the factthat this was something that
required further understanding,catechesis, to really be able to
(13:53):
integrate it into our lives.
But of course, that wouldn'tcome until much, much later
decades later really, when womenare starting to take it back up
, and there have been numerousarticles in the press about the
Chapel veil, and so that isstarting to happen.
Now we're getting morewidespread coverage of the
(14:17):
meaning of the veil, why youngpeople especially are starting
to embrace it, and that's reallywhat needed to happen.
It needs to be education aboutthe meaning of the veil, the
meaning of so many devotionsthat we really need as human
beings, because we're not justspirit, we're body and spirit,
body and soul, and so what we dowith our bodies really does
(14:40):
affect what happens in our souls, and that's one of the things
that the veil does.
Sheila Nonato (14:46):
And another popular question is why don't
men wear veils?
Lily Wilson (14:51):
Right, and so the whole point of the veil is to
make an act of humility beforeGod.
For men, that act of humilityis to remove whatever they have
on their heads.
So if even today is seen as anact of respect to when, let's
say, when you go into church, aman removes his hat, and so the
(15:14):
specific action of humblingthemselves in the presence of
God is for men to remove theirhats.
And just going a little bitmore deeply into that, you know
there's a difference between theway that men and women see hair
.
So obviously I got my hair donefor this interview today.
(15:36):
You know, hair is a woman'sglory and for men, clearly, it's
not that.
And in fact many men, as theygrow older, they lose their hair
, they become bald, and so whenthey reveal that baldness, you
know which is, you know somewhatwell, it's, I would say,
(15:56):
humbling.
You know, showing theirweakness, I guess, in the
presence of God, their weakness,I guess, in the presence of God
.
That for them is a way ofhumbling themselves before God.
And you know, and I have even aspecific story I remember, so I
did, I got my hair done today,and so we're not in church, but
(16:18):
you know it would make sensethat if I were to go to Mass
right now, that going to Masswould not be an opportunity to
socially show off my hair.
So covering it, you know, is anact of saying it's not about me,
lord, it's about you.
And I had a similar experiencea few years ago when I had just
(16:38):
gotten a haircut and I foundmyself like, oh, I love my new
haircut and I'm so excited.
Now we're going to go to Massand all my friends are going to
see it.
And I'm like, " I love my newhaircut and I'm so excited.
Now we're going to go to massand all my friends are going to
see it.
And then I'm like, wait asecond, I'm going to have my
hair covered because I'm goingto be wearing a veil.
Nobody's going to see that.
But that was the whole point.
It's not about me, it's aboutJesus, it's about what happens
(16:59):
at mass.
Sheila Nonato (17:06):
I've never heard it explained like that before.
But yeah, that totally makessense.
And it's true, women do careabout hair.
Hair is it's part of our publicpresentation of ourselves.
And, yeah, it's true, men notso much.
And if you look at the pricesof haircuts between men and
women there's a big difference.
And I think that's one of thereasons is that there is value.
(17:26):
There's more value to a woman'sappearance in public than men.
And I guess what you're talkingabout humility.
And I'm going to read just aquick passage.
I know this is a controversialone that is often misunderstood,
and when I used to be a lectorand I read this passage, I
almost wanted to laugh becausethis was back in my feminist
(17:46):
days.
Ephesians 5, 21, be subject toone another out of reverence for
Christ, and wives be subject toyour husbands as to the Lord,
for the husband is the head ofthe wife, as Christ is the head
of the church, his body, and ishimself its savior.
And when I got married I wasthinking, oh, you know, I didn't
want to get married beforebecause I thought I was again in
(18:09):
this feminist kind of mindsetthat I don't want to be
subjugated to a man or tosomebody.
But as I'm reading more,learning more about my faith,
I'm sort of learning tounderstand that I subject myself
to God, and so does my husband,and he is leading our family,
(18:30):
but he is also subject tosomebody else, like God, so it's
not like he's just doingwhatever he wants.
So that's why the whole thingabout discernment is also very
crucial for women to pick theright man, so the right leader
for the family.
But yeah, so this quote was inthe handout that you have.
(18:50):
You said husbands love yourwives as Christ loves the church
and the bridegroom and thebride.
You know, there's this imagery,this beautiful imagery, where
the veil comes in and kind ofcompletes the whole picture.
Can you sort of talk about howthis again the submission it's
(19:10):
not a submission to self or to aperson, but it is a submission
to God, and how that is actuallypart of our faith and part of
how we sort of nourish andsustain our faith, is that we
focus.
When we have the veil, we arefocusing our attention or having
(19:31):
other people focus theirattention to God and not to
ourselves.
Can you sort of talk a littlebit about that?
Lily Wilson (19:52):
What's coming to mind right now is the whole idea
of thy will be done, of lettinggo of our own will to assent to
God's will.
God's will is always for ourgood.
God is not this either distantGod or demanding God?
And it's so important for us tobe clear on who God really is,
the fact that God's heart is toredeem and restore and bring
(20:16):
light and love into our lives.
That's who God is.
And so, when we look at it fromthat perspective, who doesn't
want to submit themselves, tolet go of their own will and
open ourselves up to the will ofsuch a loving, loving God?
(20:39):
And so, in that sense, thatveil is a way of saying not my
will but your will, Lord, Isurrender myself to you.
And in the same way, you know,god created man and woman in
that order, and it is, you know,god is a God of order.
When we have order in our lives, we're able to flourish.
(21:02):
Order in our lives, we're ableto flourish.
And you know even, you know,companies have leadership, and
there is, you know, the militarygovernments.
There is an order to things,and when things are in order,
we're able to really become whowe are meant to be.
And so that kind of that orderestablished by God, of God, man,
(21:26):
woman.
It's not there to make ourlives miserable or say that
we're less than no.
It's meant for our good, for usto flourish as human beings, in
our full humanity, but also inour identity as children of God.
And so that's where you seethat veil in the marriage
ceremony, because men arerepresentative of Christ.
(21:52):
And so in another passage, St.
Paul says husbands, "ove yourwives as Christ loved the church
.
And what did Christ do?
He died for her.
And what did Christ do?
He died for her.
And so who wouldn't submit tosomeone who would just die for
you?
Isn't that what like?
(22:12):
As women, we just that's whatwe want.
We want somebody to die for us.
We want to receive that kind oflove.
Jesus died for us, but then ourhusbands are called to die for
us as well, and in turn we areasked to honor that sacred order
and we're asked to let go ofour own will for the will of God
(22:34):
, for holiness, for sanctity,and to bring God's love into the
world through our very bodies,both physically and spiritually.
So it's just a beautiful thing.
And the last thing I want to sayspecifically about the wedding
(22:56):
imagery is that this issomething that is in the Song of
Songs, and, as you mentionedwhat you read, that the
relationship between man andwoman, like husband and wife, is
an image of the relationshipbetween Christ and the church,
as we said.
So men are representative ofChrist and women are
(23:19):
representative of the church, arepresentative of the church.
But also it's a mirror of therelationship between God and the
soul, to where, you know, godgives and the soul receives, and
then, when the soul receives,the soul is led to give back to
God, and then it becomes thisexchange of love of giving and
(23:41):
receiving, and that is how webecome who we are truly meant to
be, because then you know, inthe same way that the
relationship between God and thesoul is meant to be, you know
the nature of receiving, givingand receiving.
If you really think about it,that's what happens between the
father and the son.
(24:02):
The father gives himselfcompletely to the son, the son
gives himself back to the Father, and that exchange of love is
the Holy Spirit and it bringslife, and so that's really what
we're meant to do, how we'remeant to become who we are meant
to be.
So it's just, it's a beautiful,beautiful thing.
Sheila Nonato (24:23):
Absolutely.
And yeah, I just got tears onmy eyes because I just started,
when you're talking about theself-giving love, like that's
that's what my husband doesevery day, that's what my dad
had been doing, that you know.
Yeah, that's, that's reallybeautiful.
That's what Our Lord did for us.
Yes, and I'm getting emotionalagain just because of how
beautiful that message is, and Ithink that message gets drowned
(24:46):
out in the world because, youknow, we are supposed to be
self-made women.
We don't need anybody yeah, wedon't need anyone to save us,
have seven kids.
Lily Wilson (24:55):
One is away at college and our youngest is
almost three and it isexhausting.
He works all day and then hehelps me so much.
I mean, he's there for thefamily, he helps get the kids
(25:16):
ready for bed, and I could seeit in him.
His eyes were closing, but herehe is being kind and patient.
His eyes were closing, but herehe is being kind and patient,
our loving to a very demandingalmost three-year-old.
And he's doing it with justgentleness and patience and I
see his eyes just falling andI'm just in awe.
(25:38):
This man is dying for us, youknow, and it was just such a
beautiful moment and my heartwas just exploding with
gratitude and it made me thinkof this man is being Christ to
all of us and dying on the crossfor us, absolutely.
Sheila Nonato (25:56):
And you were also at the Eucharistic Congress,
the National EucharisticCongress in Indianapolis.
Yes, and that was also another.
When I saw the pictures and Iwas reading the articles again,
heartstrings were being tuggedbecause I was seeing, as you
were saying, a return to truthor the search for truth.
(26:17):
Anyway, what was yourexperience there and how did
people receive the veil?
Lily Wilson (26:23):
Oh, my goodness, I could talk for hours about this.
It was such a grace-filled fewdays.
We met so many of our longtimecustomers who came to us and
(26:48):
expressed their gratitude forwhat we're doing because the
veil has had such a deep impactin their spiritual lives, in
their call to let go of theirown will and just the beautiful
fruits that that has brought forthem the peace, the serenity,
the peace, the serenity, the joy.
And you know, it was reallyinteresting because my daughters
I have four daughters and threeboys my daughters were all
(27:12):
there helping me at my booth andthey got a chance to witness
all those conversations with allthese women and they were blown
away.
So I have not been one to likemake them wear a veil at Mass,
but just from them witnessingthose conversations, they
decided they wanted to wear aveil at Mass and a couple of
(27:36):
them have been doing it.
The other two, I think, kind oflike they kind of left it.
They're younger and they forgetit and that kind of thing.
But it really made an impact onthem.
You know what they heard and itwas just so beautiful to meet
the women that we have beencorresponding with, that we've
been serving this whole entiretime and it was amazing that's
(28:00):
not even to say all the gracesthat I received from just, you
know, going to the talks in theevening, because the booths were
closed when the main sessionswere going on in the evening, so
we were able to go to those andthose were just phenomenal and
I received very specific gracesfrom that as well.
So I am just so grateful forthe whole Eucharistic Congress
(28:23):
and just to be a part of it wasamazing.
Was it your first time?
My first time at a EucharisticCongress, something like that.
Yeah, yes, especially that big.
Yes, we were very, very busy.
We did not expect to have somany women come visit our booths
.
It was nonstop and women werejust hungry for this, just
(28:45):
really hungry and reallyembracing it, and it was
beautiful to see.
Sheila Nonato (28:50):
And was it different ages?
Who was coming and what weretheir questions?
What were they interested infinding out?
Lily Wilson (28:58):
So I would say that most women had already heard
about this and heard the meaning.
Those who didn't picked up ourlittle information cards and
they read it and they were like,oh wow, this is really
beautiful.
But we really had.
We had all ages, we had momsand little girls, we had
husbands buying for their wives,we had older women buying for
(29:22):
their whole families.
There was this one particularencounter with some ladies and
they were like I'm going to buythis for so-and-so and I'm going
to buy this one for so-and-soand this one for so-and-so, and
we were very, very well received.
So it was beautiful.
Sheila Nonato (29:40):
That's awesome, and do you have any veils to
show, or so you can explain tous or I?
I have mine, but it's not thegreatest.
I I'm actually looking savingup to get one of yours, but I
don't know if you have any onhand or we could just talk about
it.
You know, I've had mine and Iknow this to me, um, before
before we.
Lily Wilson (30:01):
We talked this morning, but it slipped my mind,
so I had thought to bring aspecific one that I wanted to
show.
But here is the veil that I'vebeen wearing.
This is the soft floral laceinfinity veil, and so I usually
(30:27):
wear it around my neck and itcomp compliments my outfit,
which is really nice outside ofchurch, but then when I go into
church I slip it over my head itcovers my beautifully done hair
that is not there to show off,and I have a little clip up here
that snaps open up close and ithelps to hold it in place to
(30:49):
where I don't have to worryabout it.
And there it is and it just, youknow it blends in with my hair.
I always wear mostly wear black.
I like my hair blending inbecause it doesn't feel like I'm
, you know, standing out.
But other women have otherpreferences and it's totally
fine, you know what?
But this is what I'mcomfortable with and so this is
(31:11):
what I wear Now.
For the longest time I wouldwear a triangle veil, so not a
loop, which is the infinity veil, and but I but I gave it away
(31:43):
to a friend and then I couldn'tfind another one.
I found a rectangle veil whichcan be kind of like a wrap, and
I wrapped it around myself andit was really interesting
because it was almost as if Icould feel the arms of the
Father wrapped around me.
And then I decided it was ablue veil, because that's what I
found at home and I'm not bigon colors, I like black.
So I came here to our store topick out a new veil and I found
this black one, which was greatand it was an infinity.
It goes around and it wasperfect because it also, you
know, gives me that sense of thearms of the father around me,
(32:06):
you know, as his beloveddaughter, and it just, you know,
it stuck.
So now I'm an infinity veilgirl, even though, you know, I
never saw myself using thesekinds of veils.
But here I am.
Sheila Nonato (32:19):
Yes, it's beautiful and you don't have to
worry about it falling.
Mine is, to be honest, I wentto this craft store and it was
the end piece and basically Ihave to like secure it.
So I, like I said I am savingup for one of your veils but
like, yeah, it's like an endpiece that I put on my head and
it does fall off sometimes, butanyway, but like there are
(32:40):
different lengths you mentionedright, Like the chapel veil goes
to your shoulders.
Lily Wilson (32:45):
So a chapel veil is just any covering for church,
like as we saw in the OldTestament.
The veil of the temple was notlace, it was actually several
inches thick, and so a veil istechnically a covering, and so a
chapel veil would be justanything that covers.
(33:06):
Now there are some that arelonger, some are shorter.
This one is the infinity style.
Then we have like triangles,wraps, you know rectangles, and
so you can call them chapelveils.
Some people call them mantillas.
We call this one an infinityveil and typically the triangles
we call them mantillas.
(33:26):
And that comes from Spain.
Spain has a very long traditionof producing lace mantillas for
women.
Sheila Nonato (33:37):
And for somebody who has never worn a veil, what
would be?
Does it matter what they startwith?
What should they be looking for?
Lily Wilson (33:45):
So it's really something that they are
comfortable with, and so if theywant to match their hair color,
I would say go with that.
If you're drawn to match anoutfit, go with that.
If you want to match yourcomplexion and you know some
cool tones, warm tones, you'rewelcome to do that as well.
It used to be that older womenwould wear darker colors or
(34:10):
black to church and youngerwomen would wear lighter colors
or white.
Nowadays, it's not so much thecase.
Everybody is wearing what justfits their personality, their
own style, the best.
But I would say that the mostimportant thing is just to be
comfortable in it, and one ofthe things that women do like
(34:30):
about the infinity veil is thatit can be worn as part of their
outfit, after mass, as a scarf,and it just kind of blends in
and it doesn't make a fuss, youknow.
So it's very versatile.
Sheila Nonato (34:45):
Okay, beautiful.
And does it also matter if it'slace or not?
Lily Wilson (34:51):
It does not matter whether it's lace or not, as
long as it's a covering.
That's the whole point is tocover.
Sheila Nonato (35:00):
And I guess you were mentioning earlier.
So traditionally it used to beum darker colors for married
women.
Is that correct?
Lily Wilson (35:07):
Yes, black specifically does it matter
specifically?
Sheila Nonato (35:11):
Yes, that's in tradition and white is for
single women.
Is that correct?
Lily Wilson (35:15):
for single women or younger women.
Sheila Nonato (35:18):
Okay.
So for children my child, wheredid her veil go?
It's white with some blue trim.
Like is it okay that it has theblue trim?
Yeah, absolutely, absolutelyOkay.
Lily Wilson (35:31):
Yeah, and I think you know in some places where
there are specific traditions ofwhat you should do, you know
you'll kind of get a sense forit when you look around at
church, but you'll also noticeyou know married women wearing
white as well, and I've seenlittle girls wearing black, you
know.
So it's not so much the coloras it is just the act of
(35:51):
reverence and humility andacknowledgement of God's
presence.
Sheila Nonato (35:57):
Okay, that's beautiful.
So another question on thecommon questions is what about
hats or other types of headcoverings?
Is that okay or so?
Lily Wilson (36:07):
I think that hats are okay in the sense that
they're a you know they're, theystill are a symbolic, symbolic
way of having something overyour head.
But I have seen some commentcommentaries that say that the
purpose of the covering is tocover the woman's hair, so
that's not on full on display.
(36:28):
The hair is the woman's gloryand so a hat is suitable.
But it may not be the best wayto kind of convey that reverence
by hiding oneself and again,it's not hiding out of shame or
negativity or anything like that, it's just, you know, as an act
(36:50):
of reverence and humility, tosay that you know it's about God
and not about us.
Sheila Nonato (36:56):
Okay, and I don't know if you've seen the trailer
there's a new Netflix movieabout Mother Mary it's just
called, I think, Mary, and so wein our I guess our history, we
see Mother Mary veiled as wascustomary and how.
What is the link to Our Ladyand the veiling and how we are?
(37:17):
We're imitating her in, in asense, when we also do that at
Mass.
Lily Wilson (37:21):
Right, and I think the essence of that is what Mary
said at the Annunciation Thywill be done.
It goes in direct contrast tothe original sin of Adam and Eve
, of the sin of the fallenangels who said I will not serve
.
And it's really about lettinggo of our own will and embracing
(37:42):
God's will, which Mary did sofaithfully.
She embraced her God-givendignity, her vocation in life,
and we are called to do the same.
And so, yeah, the veil says youknow, I am the servant of the
Lord.
Be it done unto me according tothy will.
And I think that that conveysthat particular sentiment very,
(38:03):
very well, and we definitelywant to imitate our mother.
We know that that's the path totrue happiness, both in this
life and the life to come, andso we're encouraged to embrace
that.
Sheila Nonato (38:17):
Yes, absolutely.
And I asked my husband whatquestion would you ask if you
were able to interview Lily andask her?
And his question was he says wehave to teach people how to
treat us.
And how does wearing a veilteach men how to treat women?
Lily Wilson (38:35):
That is a great question and I think this is
something that when a man sees awoman wearing a veil,
intuitively they understand thatthis woman is not to be
objectified, that she knows hertrue worth and she's going to
claim that for herself in herlife and in her relationships.
(38:57):
So I think it just conveys thatvery, very well and men
understand that.
And I think you know, yes,there has been a need for
education on the veil, but Ithink that people in general,
when they see a woman wearing aveil, they, deep down in their
hearts, they know what it's for,they know it's an act of
(39:19):
reverence, they know that ithighlights an act of reverence,
they know that it highlights thedignity of the woman, and those
are all things that are reallyvery needed in our culture today
, because so much of that hasbeen lost and we need to claim
it back for ourselves.
Sheila Nonato (39:35):
And his second question is related to what you
just said how does failing teachour young girls to become
strong women?
Lily Wilson (39:43):
Yeah, so it makes me think of the strength of Mary
, that hers was quiet strength,that, by her humility, is how
she crushed the head of theserpent.
And so our humility is going tobe our strength, is going to be
our weapon against evil in theworld.
(40:04):
So you don't fight evil withevil.
You fight evil with goodness,with truth, with beauty, with
kindness, gentleness,self-control, all the gifts and
fruits of the Holy Spirit, andthat's our true strength.
Our strength is in the Lord,and that is where it is to be
found and nowhere else really.
Sheila Nonato (40:27):
And finally, have you seen you were mentioning at
the Eucharistic Congress therewere a lot of women interested
in knowing or purchasing a veil.
Have you seen increasedinterest over the 14 years in
your business?
Lily Wilson (40:37):
Oh my goodness, yes , yes, an incredible increase.
We started out shipping about30 to 60 orders when I was doing
it out of the corner of mykitchen and now we're averaging
around 900 orders a month,including our busy seasons, you
know.
So it goes up and downdepending on the season, but our
average is about 900 orders andit's just really beautiful to
(41:01):
see.
It's really amazing anddefinitely a gift for us here as
well, and all the ladies whowork here, because it's been
just a real gift for us to beable to serve in this way.
Sheila Nonato (41:13):
And is Advent one of the busy seasons?
Do you see sort of an uptick?
Absolutely.
Lily Wilson (41:17):
Yes, yes, just leading up to Christmas, some
women like to honor the seasonby wearing a purple veil.
It's just a way ofparticipating more fully with
the liturgical year.
Sheila Nonato (41:33):
And can you direct us if somebody listening
a Catholic woman is listeningright now and interested in
exploring the veil, where canthey find you?
Lily Wilson (41:44):
We are at veilsbylilycom, and that's
L-I-L-Y one L in the middle?
Sheila Nonato (41:51):
Amazing, and was there anything else that you
wanted to add that I might havemissed?
Lily Wilson (41:56):
Oh, just thank you for for having me.
It's a joy to be able to speakof all these things, because
it's made such a difference inmy own life and in the lives of
other women as well, and so it'sbeen a joy thank you and god
bless you and your ministry andyour family and your business
and I I really I have beenlooking forward to speaking with
(42:17):
you.
Sheila Nonato (42:17):
So.
So I was just telling myhusband oh, guess what, stop me
to tomorrow.
So I really appreciate yourtime and your witness and giving
us all this information so thatwe can explore for ourselves
whether this is something for us.
So Black Friday is coming up andAdvent season we're trying to
prepare ourselves interiorly aswell, and also all the things
(42:39):
that go with preparations forAdvent.
What do you have for women forBlack Friday?
Is there anything coming upwith your shop?
Lily Wilson (42:47):
Yes, we are going to have an unprecedented 20% off
.
We do try to keep our prices aslow as possible, so it's hard
for us to discount very much,but we I don't think we've ever
done 20% off your order andthat's what we're going to offer
from Black Friday through CyberMonday, and we are also going
(43:09):
to have a little 12 days ofChristmas sale, from the 1st of
December to the 12th, withdifferent items from our store.
Sheila Nonato (43:19):
Wonderful.
Thank you very much again, LilyThank you have a great day.
Take care you too.
Thank you so much.
Bye-bye.
Thank you to Lily Wilson forgiving us a glimpse into why
women are starting to veil againat Mass and how they see it as
a way of expressing theirfeminine identity in Christ and
an expression of their newfoundfreedom and confidence in this
(43:40):
identity as daughters of God.
On this Thanksgiving weekendand the beginning of Advent, we
would like to express oursincerest thank you to each and
every one of you, oursubscribers and listeners, for
helping us to reach the top fiveof Good Pod's chart in the
categories of Motherhood and TopCatholic podcasts, which we are
(44:02):
humbled and honoured to be onthe same podcast list as Fr Mike
Schmitz and Bishop Barron.
We pray that each and every oneof you has a blessed Advent and
Holy Christmas.
Thank you, and listening to theVeil and Armour podcast.
Co-Host (44:34):
I invite you to share this with another Catholic mom
today.
Please subscribe to our podcastand YouTube channel and please
spread the word.
Let's be brave, let's be boldand be blessed together.
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