November 27, 2025 • 19 mins
Think draft horses “do worse” with colic? We put that belief on trial and let the data speak. With equine practitioner and researcher Dr. Jennifer Burns as our guest, we unpack why survival isn’t about breed status—it’s about when the horse arrives and how quickly we act. Drafts are famously stoic, which can mask early pain and delay referral. By the time they reach the hospital, heart rate, lactate, and abdominal protein often paint a sicker picture. The takeaway is both practical and hopeful: intervene early, educate owners on subtle signs, and don’t let draft status stop a surgical plan when it’s indicated.
We walk through the study’s design, the variables that could and couldn’t fit the model, and the nuance behind “more complications” without worse overall outcomes. Jennifer shares the conversations she has with clients who fear that surgery is a Hail Mary, and we spotlight a compelling number—60% of admitted horses were discharged—that reframes expectations. From clear displacement cases to managing two-thousand-pound athletes, we connect field realities with hospital strategy and discuss where targeted anesthesia, fluid plans, and postoperative monitoring might chip away at complication risks.
You’ll also hear candid stories from the road, the lessons that stuck, and the research questions we’re chasing next: is delayed care driven by recognition, logistics, or cost, and how can we fix it? If you care for draft horses—or love one—this conversation offers a sharper lens for spotting trouble sooner and a stronger voice when advocating for timely referral. If this episode helps you rethink colic in stoic breeds, follow the show, share it with a fellow horse person, and leave a quick review to help others find us.
JAVMA article: https://doi.org/10.2460/javma.25.05.0320
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
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SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Welcome to Veterinary Vertex, the AVMA
Journal's podcast where we delveinto behind-the-scenes looked
with manuscript authors.
I'm editor-in-chief Leeds ofFordi, joined by associate
editor Sarah Wright.
Today we have a special guestfrom UPI when we're discussing
how draft horses have similaroutcomes as non-draft horses,
presenting for colic with authorJennifer.
(00:56):
And this is a real mythbuster.
I'm an equine surgeon too, asyou might know, Jennifer.
So I really appreciate this.
And thank you for taking yourtime to be here with us.
Yeah, good morning.
Thank you both for having mehere.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Jennifer.
And before we dive in, could youshare a little about your
background and what brought youto equine medicine?
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Yeah, sure.
Um I I can't say my story'sprobably unique.
I grew up as a horse girl froman early age, riding horses, in
love with horses.
Um, and I kind of thought, well,if I can't make, you know, a
professional career out ofbarrel racing, then I guess I'll
be a horse vet.
Um so here you are.
(01:34):
Yeah, here I am.
I did it.
Um, but I didn't really realizelike what that could be until I
kind of got to vet school.
And it was like, wow, there's alot of options out there.
And I really enjoyed everything,actually.
Like I I loved all the differentaspects.
So, of course, I couldn'tchoose.
Um, I decided to do a residencyin um ABVP, where I got to still
(01:56):
kind of do a little bit ofeverything.
And it worked out.
I actually ended up staying atthe Atlantic Vet College.
I work there now in theambulatory service, and a large
portion of my time is on clinicsum and teaching the
undergraduate students, but I doget to sneak in some research
now and then.
So it's it's a really great uhopportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Fantastic.
It was the same.
I thought veterinary medicinewas the coolest thing when I got
to vet school.
I didn't know all the thingsthat you could be.
And I grew up as a horse girltoo, but dogs and cats and all
their cool surgery.
But for me, it was the firsttime I smelled dog diarrhea, I
was like, mm-mm.
Oh, that's not happening.
Uh and then mean cats in a cage.
(02:35):
Like I was scared to death ofmean cats, like, give me a bull
or a stallion and a mean horseany day, but a mean cat in the
cage, I can't go near that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:44):
Absolutely agree.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
All right, back to your author.
Uh, your article, sorry.
Your Jabma article discussesclinical findings, treatment,
outcomes for draft horsesexperienced glycolic.
Uh, I think I know what you'regoing to say.
Like, what the what's thebackground of this research?
How did you come up with thisidea to even investigate how
they compared to non-drafts?
SPEAKER_03 (03:06):
Yeah.
Um, so I do have quite aninterest in draft horse health.
Um, that's been some of myprevious research.
And I kind of find like whenyou're looking through the
literature, there's really not alot about draft horses in
general, um, especially evenless about colic, which we know
is just a huge problem in horsesstill.
(03:28):
So it kind of made us startthinking that they have these
problems that we know about thatare a little different than, you
know, regular, regular-sizedhorses, we could say.
Um, they have higher anestheticcomplications, they have more
postoperative complications,they their metabolic rate's a
little different.
And probably really particularto colic is that they they kind
(03:52):
of have this propensity to showabnormal pain response compared
to, you know, smaller breedhorses.
So knowing that they had thesedifferences, we kind of wanted
to see like, does that changetheir outcome for colic and does
that change their survival?
Because those are kind of bigconcerns we think about with
colic, but we don't have theanswers to those questions.
(04:15):
So and I guess we could alsosay, like, as a clinician, I've
heard it a lot from owners andfrom maybe other veterinarians.
Like, people tend to think drafthorses have this reputation for
doing poorly with colic, whetherit's medical management or
surgical management.
Um, owners don't necessarilywant to refer because they think
(04:36):
it's it's a lost cause anyway.
Um, they definitely don't wantto take him to surgery because
they feel that that's just notgonna not gonna work.
Um, but there's really actuallynothing in the lit in the
literature that reinforces thatbelief.
So we kind of wanted to answerthat question like, is that
true?
Do draft horses do worse withcolic?
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah, I love these mythbusters.
I always say it's like eminenceversus evidence.
SPEAKER_03 (05:00):
Yeah.
And it's it's a pretty strongone that's out there.
Like we we see it a lot.
Um, I see it a lot with myclients all the time, and I hear
it from other vets too.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
So yeah, it's a good dream.
Yeah, it's it is one of thethings draft horses, especially
when an owner says something'snot right.
Like, and you look at it andyou're like, that's not colic,
right?
It's not colic by any otherdefinition of the word.
So I think oftentimes they, ifyou're not around enough of
them, they kind they go for awhile without being properly
(05:29):
diagnosed or treated, like, ah,call me tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03 (05:33):
Absolutely.
Um, and that actually kind ofbrings us to one of the points
we found in our study is so theoverall theme was a draft horse
status itself is not um anegative prognostic indicator.
But we were finding that drafthorses were coming in and
presenting basically sicker thannon-draft horses.
(05:57):
So they were getting here andthey were having, you know, much
higher heart rates.
They were having elevatedlactates, total proteins, um
abdominal protein.
And I guess that kind of broughtthe question of why?
Like, why were they coming in somuch sicker?
And it's kind of like what yousaid is it is it because we
weren't seeing the signs ofcollet because they are so stoic
in the beginning?
(06:18):
Um, is it because owners weremore of like a wait and see,
like, that doesn't look likecolic, we'll just leave it.
Or was there some other barrier?
Like, was it was it atransportation or a financial or
like a geographic thing?
Like, you know, it it leaves aquestion, why were they coming
in sicker?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Yeah, it's very common though.
Uh speaking of data, were thereany limitations in your data set
that uh you looked at and mighthave changed your analysis or or
shaped your conclusions?
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
Yeah, um, when we did do the final analysis, there
were there was some data that wejust couldn't use um that
couldn't be part of that becauseof the sample size.
Um so we did have to follow, youknow, some specific rules for
the modeling, and certain pointsweren't included in that final.
So things like lactate, um,total protein fibrinogen, things
(07:10):
that have kind of already beenproven to be poor prognostic
indicators weren't necessarilyincluded in our final model
because of that, thoselimitations.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yeah.
Oh, it's still fabulous.
And based on these findings, uh,what should practitioners keep
in mind when they're evaluatingor looking at a horse that might
be colicing?
A draft horse in particular,obviously.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
Um, I think number one, the the big finding again
is we know that draft horses,they they're a lot more stoic.
They're they're prettyeasygoing.
They don't necessarily show painlike we think.
So talking to our owners aboutidentifying the signs of colic
in these horses and then doingearly intervention and treatment
(07:53):
is gonna be our best casescenario.
Because the fact that it's adraft horse isn't what's gonna
cause it to do poorly.
It's the fact that it's gonnacome in later when it's already
sicker and already has all theselike negative prognostic
indicators.
So early intervention, alwayskey.
Do not follow the wait and seeapproach.
That doesn't work for theseguys, um, because they can just
(08:14):
languish for days being reallysick, but not really knowing it.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
I love how you said that.
It's not because it's a drafthorse, it's because they're
coming in sicker.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Yeah.
And what are the key take-homemessages you hope veterinarians
will remember?
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Again, I think it is just early intervention.
Um, especially forveterinarians, like we need to
remember that draft status isn'tgonna be our limiting factor.
And I know for referral, like II am um like a primary care
physician, I'm ambulatory, so Ideal with clients a lot of the
times when we talk aboutreferral.
(08:49):
Um, and there's always gonna bebarriers for that.
Like it's it's not an easydecision for owners to make.
Um, and there will be otherthings that we take into
account, but draft statusshouldn't be one of them.
Like if they want the bestoutcome and that horse needs to
go to a referrals facility,draft status doesn't matter.
Just send it in.
(09:09):
Like that's not gonna be one ofthe limiting factors.
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Was there a particular case or a moment
early in your career that piquedthis interest?
SPEAKER_03 (09:21):
Yeah.
Um there's a few.
Uh I s I still remember when Iwas like an intern or resident,
a lot of the cases that we'recalling cases that still stick
with me are draft horses.
Um I still remember my firstcase of proximal interitis was,
of course, a pertron.
And I was very new and I had noidea that they could make that
(09:42):
much reflex, reflux.
Oh my gosh.
I was almost terrified.
Um, but with good management andwith good treatment, like she
she did recover.
So it is doable.
Um I will say a case probablythat I still remember um that is
really kind of pertains to thisresearch we did was one of those
(10:05):
like middle of the night, middleof nowhere, you know, two hours
from home, middle of winter,going to see a colicky horse.
And again, it was anotherprotron.
We have a lot of those here.
Um, but she had a very cleardisplacement, like very clear
displacement, and talked to theowner about it and said, you
know, referralin would be herbest bet.
She's a really great surgicalcandidate.
(10:26):
This was pretty early on in thedisease process.
And he just flat out looked atme and said, No, there's no
point in going to surgery.
She will not make it.
And I was still really new.
So still learning that, like,you know, how to talk to
clients, push, push back alittle bit.
Um, but I was kind of likefloored because he was just
adamant.
And I don't know if having thisresearch at the time would have
(10:50):
made a lot of difference, but Ithink it would have at least
given me some some reassurancethat what I was trying to tell
him was was true.
My side was you can take her in.
She is just as good of, youknow, possibility of an outcome
as a light breed.
Just because she's a draftdoesn't mean she can't survive
surgery.
But that that still sticks withme, that case, because I still
(11:12):
feel like um I don't know if Icould have done more, but I at
least could have had maybe somemore um reassurance having this
kind of research behind me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Yeah, for sure.
And it is an out there, as yousaid.
Uh so along that, other thantreating early, doesn't matter
if it's a draft.
What other things in colic ingeneral do you wish more
practitioners or ownersunderstood?
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
I think from from the owner side, um, I think what
I'd like them to know is, again,like referral or surgery.
It's not like a Hail Mary, it'snot the end of the world.
Um, our study showed 60% ofhorses that came in did leave,
were discharged.
Um so just because we'resuggesting referral or we're
(12:01):
suggesting surgery, it's it'snot like we're just taking a
chance and trying to get themthere.
Like they have a good chance ofsurviving, especially if we can
get them in early, especially ifwe can um, you know, kind of get
them in before we start seeingsome of these things like the
high lactates and the highfibrinogens and stuff like that.
So referral isn't the end of theworld.
(12:23):
It's it's what we're doing totry and help your horse get
better faster.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
And financially, the earlier they get in, the less
workout you're gonna havehanging all those bags of fluids
to try and keep up with a horsethat has price.
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
And probably a better chance of having less
complications, right?
Like the earlier we can get inand get these things done, the
better it's gonna be.
Yeah.
But I still feel like I have tohave this conversation with
owners quite a bit.
So, what are the next steps forresearch in this area?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
Um, good question.
Uh, I do, I do still want tocontinue looking into some draft
horse colic things.
I think one in particular isagain, why why are we seeing
them so sick compared to theirnon-draft counterparts?
Uh, I kind of want to just lookinto that a little more to see,
again, if it's just a arecognition thing on the side of
(13:14):
the owner or maybe the refveterinarian.
Or is there some other barrierfor for that?
Like, is there a reason thatthey're not getting here faster?
Do you have any any gutfeelings?
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
What why that is?
Get it, gut feeling.
SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
I love a good pun.
Um you just had to.
It was right there.
You had to.
But um, I think again, it is arecognition thing.
And I think it is maybe ownersare just kind of willing to wait
and see, not realizing thatthings could change a lot and be
a lot different outcome if theycame in earlier.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Yeah, what a great educational campaign for across
the nation, probably across theworld.
It's, you know, in in universitywe don't see a lot of draft
horses, so students don't learnabout it.
Ooh, I have an idea.
A technical tutorial video, andyou can say, Do you know what
colic looks like in a drafthorse?
We'll talk to you about thatafter the podcast.
Okay, sure.
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
Love it.
So, what aspects of draft horsecolic still remain poorly
understood?
SPEAKER_03 (14:23):
Yeah, um I guess the thing for me is I don't know if
I would say poorly understood,but like when we have draft
horses referred in and stufflike that, like to a hospital,
whether it's medical or surgicalmanagement, like is there things
that we could be doing toincrease their odds of survival?
So is there, you know,anesthetic plans we can
(14:47):
optimize, you know, for shortersurgical times, shorter
anesthetic times, or is therecertain postoperative care that
we should be knowing the drafthorses need, you know, to kind
of minimize the risk ofcomplications?
Because we did show in thispaper that uh despite the fact
that draft horse status isn'tgoing to change their outcome,
they do have more complicationsthan their non-draft
(15:09):
counterparts.
So I guess is there somethingthat we can do?
Is there some sort of strategywe can come up with when these
horses come in to minimize that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Interesting.
I don't know what that is.
Uh, because you approach themall the same, but you're right,
their whole omics is justdifferent.
SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
Yeah, they they have a lot of like hemodynamic, the
obvious, you know, weightdifferences, things like that.
That should we be consideringcertain things with those to
make their trip through thehospital easier or less
problematic?
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Yeah, I don't know about yours.
Most of ours are quite on themetabolic side as well, a little
chunky.
SPEAKER_03 (15:50):
We actually our draft population here is a lot
of draft pulling horses.
So nice.
Younger, very fit, 2,000-poundlike athletes.
Yeah.
So I don't see many of them.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
How does your training and previous work
prepare you to think about thistopic, gather the data, analyze
it, and then cross the finishline by writing the article?
SPEAKER_03 (16:15):
I think I'm very fortunate um to kind of be in
the position I am.
Like being an ambulatorypractitioner in an academic
institute kind of gives you somebenefits.
Um, so I still get to be on theroad.
I'm still out with my studentsall the time, talking to
clients, kind of getting theiropinions on these kind of
things.
Um, and that's where a lot of myresearch comes from.
(16:37):
It's like, okay, well, theclients are saying this.
Is it true?
But then I can take that back.
And I have, you know, a numberof great colleagues that we can
do kind of collaborativeresearch on, which, you know,
makes it really easy for me tokind of answer some of these
questions.
I work, all my research is donein collaboration because it
gives us that that view from theambulatory setting, from the
(16:59):
surgical side, from the medicineside.
It kind of invites everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You're so excellent to interview, like all the
follow-up things I was going toask you, just given this like
super complete answer.
It's really, really fun.
SPEAKER_03 (17:12):
I just like to talk a lot, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
No, you answer it very succinctly and and fully.
SPEAKER_03 (17:19):
It's like when I write a paper, they're like,
wow, you probably want to toneit down a bit.
I I tend to write a little extraand then we have to to crop it
back a bit.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
That's the medicine in you.
SPEAKER_03 (17:29):
Yeah, very true.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
Yeah, sometimes it's easier to crop it back, I will
say, like than try to add morepoints.
Yep, definitely.
All right, so before we wrap up,let's have a little bit of fun.
Okay.
Two fine questions for youtoday.
First one, if you couldinstantly communicate with any
other species, which would youpick?
And what's the first thing youwould ask them?
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Well, I I think as an e-quine practitioner, I feel
like I have to say horses.
Um, but I don't know if it wouldbe to ask them.
It would be more to like maybegive them some advice that would
make their life easier, but alsoour life easier.
Like things like please justdrink your drink your water, um,
stop rolling next to the fences.
Not everything that moves outthere is trying to kill you,
(18:15):
like stuff like that to justmake both of our lives easier.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Or as a writer, that sunspot was there two minutes
ago.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (18:25):
Don't worry about it.
You don't have to bolt.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Like, as most of our listeners know, I have two cats.
I feel very similar about them.
Like, please don't eat thatplastic target bag on the floor
that I haven't put away yet.
Your stomach's not gonna like itlater.
SPEAKER_03 (18:38):
But like with cats, you also want to be like, you
know, why are you judging me somuch?
You know, like that if you everwant to be humbled, own a cat.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
Well there you go.
Absolutely.
So, next question.
If you could design a dreamanimal clinic or a dream barn,
what whimsical feature would youadd just for fun?
SPEAKER_03 (18:59):
Um, so a dream barn, uh, there's so many things.
I don't know if it would becalled whimsical, but like
things that could just make yourlife easier, like some sort of
little AI mucking robot.
Like it goes in there, finds theplots, finds the manure, takes
that out, shoots it outside.
Like we're just done, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Um I want I want an AI bot to go get my horse from
the way over there in thepasture.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yes, when your horse sees you and goes the other way,
that little bot just goes andgets it for you.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
Like that's awesome.
Well, Jennifer, thank you somuch for joining us.
And for our listeners andviewers, you can read Jennifer's
article on JAVMA.
I'm Lisa Fordier here with SarahWright.
Be sure to tune in next week foranother episode of Veterinary
Vertex.
And hey Ramsey, don't forget tolisten to your mom's podcast.
And don't forget to leave us arating and review on Apple
(19:49):
Podcasts or wherever you listen.
From the makers of FET recommended Green East
(00:02):
Dental Treats comes an easy wayto support your dog's wellness.
Green Eats Smart Essentials.
Dry food delivers complete,balanced nutrition with
science-backed recipes.
Green Eats Supplements,developed by a team of PhD
animal nutritionists, offersoptions to help support healthy
joints, digestion, and more.
(00:24):
Whether it's meal time ormobility support, Green Eats
helps you care for your dog fromthe inside out.
Learn more at greeneats.com.
SPEAKER_01 (00:35):
Welcome to Veterinary Vertex, the AVMA
Journal's podcast where we delveinto behind-the-scenes looked
with manuscript authors.
I'm editor-in-chief Leeds ofFordi, joined by associate
editor Sarah Wright.
Today we have a special guestfrom UPI when we're discussing
how draft horses have similaroutcomes as non-draft horses,
presenting for colic with authorJennifer.
(00:56):
And this is a real mythbuster.
I'm an equine surgeon too, asyou might know, Jennifer.
So I really appreciate this.
And thank you for taking yourtime to be here with us.
Yeah, good morning.
Thank you both for having mehere.
SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Jennifer.
And before we dive in, could youshare a little about your
background and what brought youto equine medicine?
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Yeah, sure.
Um I I can't say my story'sprobably unique.
I grew up as a horse girl froman early age, riding horses, in
love with horses.
Um, and I kind of thought, well,if I can't make, you know, a
professional career out ofbarrel racing, then I guess I'll
be a horse vet.
Um so here you are.
(01:34):
Yeah, here I am.
I did it.
Um, but I didn't really realizelike what that could be until I
kind of got to vet school.
And it was like, wow, there's alot of options out there.
And I really enjoyed everything,actually.
Like I I loved all the differentaspects.
So, of course, I couldn'tchoose.
Um, I decided to do a residencyin um ABVP, where I got to still
(01:56):
kind of do a little bit ofeverything.
And it worked out.
I actually ended up staying atthe Atlantic Vet College.
I work there now in theambulatory service, and a large
portion of my time is on clinicsum and teaching the
undergraduate students, but I doget to sneak in some research
now and then.
So it's it's a really great uhopportunity.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Fantastic.
It was the same.
I thought veterinary medicinewas the coolest thing when I got
to vet school.
I didn't know all the thingsthat you could be.
And I grew up as a horse girltoo, but dogs and cats and all
their cool surgery.
But for me, it was the firsttime I smelled dog diarrhea, I
was like, mm-mm.
Oh, that's not happening.
Uh and then mean cats in a cage.
(02:35):
Like I was scared to death ofmean cats, like, give me a bull
or a stallion and a mean horseany day, but a mean cat in the
cage, I can't go near that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:44):
Absolutely agree.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:46):
All right, back to your author.
Uh, your article, sorry.
Your Jabma article discussesclinical findings, treatment,
outcomes for draft horsesexperienced glycolic.
Uh, I think I know what you'regoing to say.
Like, what the what's thebackground of this research?
How did you come up with thisidea to even investigate how
they compared to non-drafts?
SPEAKER_03 (03:06):
Yeah.
Um, so I do have quite aninterest in draft horse health.
Um, that's been some of myprevious research.
And I kind of find like whenyou're looking through the
literature, there's really not alot about draft horses in
general, um, especially evenless about colic, which we know
is just a huge problem in horsesstill.
(03:28):
So it kind of made us startthinking that they have these
problems that we know about thatare a little different than, you
know, regular, regular-sizedhorses, we could say.
Um, they have higher anestheticcomplications, they have more
postoperative complications,they their metabolic rate's a
little different.
And probably really particularto colic is that they they kind
(03:52):
of have this propensity to showabnormal pain response compared
to, you know, smaller breedhorses.
So knowing that they had thesedifferences, we kind of wanted
to see like, does that changetheir outcome for colic and does
that change their survival?
Because those are kind of bigconcerns we think about with
colic, but we don't have theanswers to those questions.
(04:15):
So and I guess we could alsosay, like, as a clinician, I've
heard it a lot from owners andfrom maybe other veterinarians.
Like, people tend to think drafthorses have this reputation for
doing poorly with colic, whetherit's medical management or
surgical management.
Um, owners don't necessarilywant to refer because they think
(04:36):
it's it's a lost cause anyway.
Um, they definitely don't wantto take him to surgery because
they feel that that's just notgonna not gonna work.
Um, but there's really actuallynothing in the lit in the
literature that reinforces thatbelief.
So we kind of wanted to answerthat question like, is that
true?
Do draft horses do worse withcolic?
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Yeah, I love these mythbusters.
I always say it's like eminenceversus evidence.
SPEAKER_03 (05:00):
Yeah.
And it's it's a pretty strongone that's out there.
Like we we see it a lot.
Um, I see it a lot with myclients all the time, and I hear
it from other vets too.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
So yeah, it's a good dream.
Yeah, it's it is one of thethings draft horses, especially
when an owner says something'snot right.
Like, and you look at it andyou're like, that's not colic,
right?
It's not colic by any otherdefinition of the word.
So I think oftentimes they, ifyou're not around enough of
them, they kind they go for awhile without being properly
(05:29):
diagnosed or treated, like, ah,call me tomorrow.
SPEAKER_03 (05:33):
Absolutely.
Um, and that actually kind ofbrings us to one of the points
we found in our study is so theoverall theme was a draft horse
status itself is not um anegative prognostic indicator.
But we were finding that drafthorses were coming in and
presenting basically sicker thannon-draft horses.
(05:57):
So they were getting here andthey were having, you know, much
higher heart rates.
They were having elevatedlactates, total proteins, um
abdominal protein.
And I guess that kind of broughtthe question of why?
Like, why were they coming in somuch sicker?
And it's kind of like what yousaid is it is it because we
weren't seeing the signs ofcollet because they are so stoic
in the beginning?
(06:18):
Um, is it because owners weremore of like a wait and see,
like, that doesn't look likecolic, we'll just leave it.
Or was there some other barrier?
Like, was it was it atransportation or a financial or
like a geographic thing?
Like, you know, it it leaves aquestion, why were they coming
in sicker?
SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Yeah, it's very common though.
Uh speaking of data, were thereany limitations in your data set
that uh you looked at and mighthave changed your analysis or or
shaped your conclusions?
SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
Yeah, um, when we did do the final analysis, there
were there was some data that wejust couldn't use um that
couldn't be part of that becauseof the sample size.
Um so we did have to follow, youknow, some specific rules for
the modeling, and certain pointsweren't included in that final.
So things like lactate, um,total protein fibrinogen, things
(07:10):
that have kind of already beenproven to be poor prognostic
indicators weren't necessarilyincluded in our final model
because of that, thoselimitations.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Yeah.
Oh, it's still fabulous.
And based on these findings, uh,what should practitioners keep
in mind when they're evaluatingor looking at a horse that might
be colicing?
A draft horse in particular,obviously.
SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
Um, I think number one, the the big finding again
is we know that draft horses,they they're a lot more stoic.
They're they're prettyeasygoing.
They don't necessarily show painlike we think.
So talking to our owners aboutidentifying the signs of colic
in these horses and then doingearly intervention and treatment
(07:53):
is gonna be our best casescenario.
Because the fact that it's adraft horse isn't what's gonna
cause it to do poorly.
It's the fact that it's gonnacome in later when it's already
sicker and already has all theselike negative prognostic
indicators.
So early intervention, alwayskey.
Do not follow the wait and seeapproach.
That doesn't work for theseguys, um, because they can just
(08:14):
languish for days being reallysick, but not really knowing it.
SPEAKER_01 (08:17):
I love how you said that.
It's not because it's a drafthorse, it's because they're
coming in sicker.
SPEAKER_02 (08:23):
Yeah.
And what are the key take-homemessages you hope veterinarians
will remember?
SPEAKER_03 (08:28):
Again, I think it is just early intervention.
Um, especially forveterinarians, like we need to
remember that draft status isn'tgonna be our limiting factor.
And I know for referral, like II am um like a primary care
physician, I'm ambulatory, so Ideal with clients a lot of the
times when we talk aboutreferral.
(08:49):
Um, and there's always gonna bebarriers for that.
Like it's it's not an easydecision for owners to make.
Um, and there will be otherthings that we take into
account, but draft statusshouldn't be one of them.
Like if they want the bestoutcome and that horse needs to
go to a referrals facility,draft status doesn't matter.
Just send it in.
(09:09):
Like that's not gonna be one ofthe limiting factors.
That's great.
SPEAKER_01 (09:14):
Was there a particular case or a moment
early in your career that piquedthis interest?
SPEAKER_03 (09:21):
Yeah.
Um there's a few.
Uh I s I still remember when Iwas like an intern or resident,
a lot of the cases that we'recalling cases that still stick
with me are draft horses.
Um I still remember my firstcase of proximal interitis was,
of course, a pertron.
And I was very new and I had noidea that they could make that
(09:42):
much reflex, reflux.
Oh my gosh.
I was almost terrified.
Um, but with good management andwith good treatment, like she
she did recover.
So it is doable.
Um I will say a case probablythat I still remember um that is
really kind of pertains to thisresearch we did was one of those
(10:05):
like middle of the night, middleof nowhere, you know, two hours
from home, middle of winter,going to see a colicky horse.
And again, it was anotherprotron.
We have a lot of those here.
Um, but she had a very cleardisplacement, like very clear
displacement, and talked to theowner about it and said, you
know, referralin would be herbest bet.
She's a really great surgicalcandidate.
(10:26):
This was pretty early on in thedisease process.
And he just flat out looked atme and said, No, there's no
point in going to surgery.
She will not make it.
And I was still really new.
So still learning that, like,you know, how to talk to
clients, push, push back alittle bit.
Um, but I was kind of likefloored because he was just
adamant.
And I don't know if having thisresearch at the time would have
(10:50):
made a lot of difference, but Ithink it would have at least
given me some some reassurancethat what I was trying to tell
him was was true.
My side was you can take her in.
She is just as good of, youknow, possibility of an outcome
as a light breed.
Just because she's a draftdoesn't mean she can't survive
surgery.
But that that still sticks withme, that case, because I still
(11:12):
feel like um I don't know if Icould have done more, but I at
least could have had maybe somemore um reassurance having this
kind of research behind me.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Yeah, for sure.
And it is an out there, as yousaid.
Uh so along that, other thantreating early, doesn't matter
if it's a draft.
What other things in colic ingeneral do you wish more
practitioners or ownersunderstood?
SPEAKER_03 (11:38):
I think from from the owner side, um, I think what
I'd like them to know is, again,like referral or surgery.
It's not like a Hail Mary, it'snot the end of the world.
Um, our study showed 60% ofhorses that came in did leave,
were discharged.
Um so just because we'resuggesting referral or we're
(12:01):
suggesting surgery, it's it'snot like we're just taking a
chance and trying to get themthere.
Like they have a good chance ofsurviving, especially if we can
get them in early, especially ifwe can um, you know, kind of get
them in before we start seeingsome of these things like the
high lactates and the highfibrinogens and stuff like that.
So referral isn't the end of theworld.
(12:23):
It's it's what we're doing totry and help your horse get
better faster.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
And financially, the earlier they get in, the less
workout you're gonna havehanging all those bags of fluids
to try and keep up with a horsethat has price.
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
And probably a better chance of having less
complications, right?
Like the earlier we can get inand get these things done, the
better it's gonna be.
Yeah.
But I still feel like I have tohave this conversation with
owners quite a bit.
So, what are the next steps forresearch in this area?
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Hmm.
SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
Um, good question.
Uh, I do, I do still want tocontinue looking into some draft
horse colic things.
I think one in particular isagain, why why are we seeing
them so sick compared to theirnon-draft counterparts?
Uh, I kind of want to just lookinto that a little more to see,
again, if it's just a arecognition thing on the side of
(13:14):
the owner or maybe the refveterinarian.
Or is there some other barrierfor for that?
Like, is there a reason thatthey're not getting here faster?
Do you have any any gutfeelings?
SPEAKER_01 (13:25):
What why that is?
Get it, gut feeling.
SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
I love a good pun.
Um you just had to.
It was right there.
You had to.
But um, I think again, it is arecognition thing.
And I think it is maybe ownersare just kind of willing to wait
and see, not realizing thatthings could change a lot and be
a lot different outcome if theycame in earlier.
SPEAKER_01 (13:53):
Yeah, what a great educational campaign for across
the nation, probably across theworld.
It's, you know, in in universitywe don't see a lot of draft
horses, so students don't learnabout it.
Ooh, I have an idea.
A technical tutorial video, andyou can say, Do you know what
colic looks like in a drafthorse?
We'll talk to you about thatafter the podcast.
Okay, sure.
SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
Love it.
So, what aspects of draft horsecolic still remain poorly
understood?
SPEAKER_03 (14:23):
Yeah, um I guess the thing for me is I don't know if
I would say poorly understood,but like when we have draft
horses referred in and stufflike that, like to a hospital,
whether it's medical or surgicalmanagement, like is there things
that we could be doing toincrease their odds of survival?
So is there, you know,anesthetic plans we can
(14:47):
optimize, you know, for shortersurgical times, shorter
anesthetic times, or is therecertain postoperative care that
we should be knowing the drafthorses need, you know, to kind
of minimize the risk ofcomplications?
Because we did show in thispaper that uh despite the fact
that draft horse status isn'tgoing to change their outcome,
they do have more complicationsthan their non-draft
(15:09):
counterparts.
So I guess is there somethingthat we can do?
Is there some sort of strategywe can come up with when these
horses come in to minimize that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:19):
Interesting.
I don't know what that is.
Uh, because you approach themall the same, but you're right,
their whole omics is justdifferent.
SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
Yeah, they they have a lot of like hemodynamic, the
obvious, you know, weightdifferences, things like that.
That should we be consideringcertain things with those to
make their trip through thehospital easier or less
problematic?
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Yeah, I don't know about yours.
Most of ours are quite on themetabolic side as well, a little
chunky.
SPEAKER_03 (15:50):
We actually our draft population here is a lot
of draft pulling horses.
So nice.
Younger, very fit, 2,000-poundlike athletes.
Yeah.
So I don't see many of them.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
How does your training and previous work
prepare you to think about thistopic, gather the data, analyze
it, and then cross the finishline by writing the article?
SPEAKER_03 (16:15):
I think I'm very fortunate um to kind of be in
the position I am.
Like being an ambulatorypractitioner in an academic
institute kind of gives you somebenefits.
Um, so I still get to be on theroad.
I'm still out with my studentsall the time, talking to
clients, kind of getting theiropinions on these kind of
things.
Um, and that's where a lot of myresearch comes from.
(16:37):
It's like, okay, well, theclients are saying this.
Is it true?
But then I can take that back.
And I have, you know, a numberof great colleagues that we can
do kind of collaborativeresearch on, which, you know,
makes it really easy for me tokind of answer some of these
questions.
I work, all my research is donein collaboration because it
gives us that that view from theambulatory setting, from the
(16:59):
surgical side, from the medicineside.
It kind of invites everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (17:04):
You're so excellent to interview, like all the
follow-up things I was going toask you, just given this like
super complete answer.
It's really, really fun.
SPEAKER_03 (17:12):
I just like to talk a lot, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
No, you answer it very succinctly and and fully.
SPEAKER_03 (17:19):
It's like when I write a paper, they're like,
wow, you probably want to toneit down a bit.
I I tend to write a little extraand then we have to to crop it
back a bit.
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
That's the medicine in you.
SPEAKER_03 (17:29):
Yeah, very true.
SPEAKER_02 (17:32):
Yeah, sometimes it's easier to crop it back, I will
say, like than try to add morepoints.
Yep, definitely.
All right, so before we wrap up,let's have a little bit of fun.
Okay.
Two fine questions for youtoday.
First one, if you couldinstantly communicate with any
other species, which would youpick?
And what's the first thing youwould ask them?
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Well, I I think as an e-quine practitioner, I feel
like I have to say horses.
Um, but I don't know if it wouldbe to ask them.
It would be more to like maybegive them some advice that would
make their life easier, but alsoour life easier.
Like things like please justdrink your drink your water, um,
stop rolling next to the fences.
Not everything that moves outthere is trying to kill you,
(18:15):
like stuff like that to justmake both of our lives easier.
SPEAKER_01 (18:19):
Or as a writer, that sunspot was there two minutes
ago.
It's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (18:25):
Don't worry about it.
You don't have to bolt.
SPEAKER_02 (18:27):
Like, as most of our listeners know, I have two cats.
I feel very similar about them.
Like, please don't eat thatplastic target bag on the floor
that I haven't put away yet.
Your stomach's not gonna like itlater.
SPEAKER_03 (18:38):
But like with cats, you also want to be like, you
know, why are you judging me somuch?
You know, like that if you everwant to be humbled, own a cat.
SPEAKER_02 (18:45):
Well there you go.
Absolutely.
So, next question.
If you could design a dreamanimal clinic or a dream barn,
what whimsical feature would youadd just for fun?
SPEAKER_03 (18:59):
Um, so a dream barn, uh, there's so many things.
I don't know if it would becalled whimsical, but like
things that could just make yourlife easier, like some sort of
little AI mucking robot.
Like it goes in there, finds theplots, finds the manure, takes
that out, shoots it outside.
Like we're just done, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:18):
Um I want I want an AI bot to go get my horse from
the way over there in thepasture.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yes, when your horse sees you and goes the other way,
that little bot just goes andgets it for you.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
Like that's awesome.
Well, Jennifer, thank you somuch for joining us.
And for our listeners andviewers, you can read Jennifer's
article on JAVMA.
I'm Lisa Fordier here with SarahWright.
Be sure to tune in next week foranother episode of Veterinary
Vertex.
And hey Ramsey, don't forget tolisten to your mom's podcast.
And don't forget to leave us arating and review on Apple
(19:49):
Podcasts or wherever you listen.
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