December 9, 2024 • 30 mins
What if you could change the fate of thousands of animals with just your voice?
Join Julie South this week as she chats with Dr Helen Beattie, the pioneering founder of Veterinarians for Animal Welfare Aotearoa (VAWA).
Today Dr Helen she shares her compelling journey in challenging the norms of live animal exports. Through her expert lens, Dr Beattie brings to light the ethical dilemmas and dire conditions faced during these inhumane journeys.
Dr Helen and Julie catch up on what she's been doing since her last guest appearance (back in ep. 069). They talk about VAWAs mission through to grappling with the pressing need for sustainable financial models to keep such critical advocacy alive.
As we confront the harsh realities of live exports, the episode also unravels the tragic story of Gulf Livestock 1, serving as a stark warning of the perils involved.
Dr Helen and Julie talk about the political maelstrom surrounding New Zealand's anticipated repeal of the live export ban and they explore the global movement towards stricter regulations.
This conversation isn't just about the challenges—it’s about taking action. They discuss how public engagement can influence decision-making and shape policies that prioritise animal welfare.
Tune in to discover the power of advocacy and the potential for meaningful change in the realm of animal rights.
Links Mentioned Today
Dr Helen Beattie - Episode 069
Dr Helen Beattie - Episode 070
Dr Helen Beattie - Episode 071
Email Prime Minister Christopher Luxon
Veterinarians for Animal Welfare Aotearoa website
Struggling to get results from your job advertisements?
If so, then shining online as a good employer is essential to attracting the types of veterinary professionals who're a perfect cultural fit for your clinic.
The VetClinicJobs job board is the place to post your next job vacancy - to find out more get in touch with Lizzie at VetClinicJobs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie South (00:05):
As a veterinary professional, where do you stand
when it comes to live exports?
Do you think it's okay toexpose animals to the stressed
and inhumane conditions that gowith getting, say, heifers from
New Zealand to China?
And then what about the qualityof their lives once they reach
(00:25):
their destination?
Where do you stand on thoseconditions?
Join me today as I catch upwith Dr Helen Beattie to hear
her views when it comes to liveexports.
Welcome to Veterinary Voices.
This is episode 215 and I'myour host, julie South.
With listeners tuning in fromover 1,400 cities worldwide,
(00:51):
veterinary Voices celebrates allthat's great about working in
New Zealand's veterinaryindustry.
I'd love to hear where you'relistening from right now, so
please feel free to share yourlocation with me at
veterinaryvoicesnz, and it'salso at veterinaryvoicesnz where
you can find back copies aswell.
(01:13):
Veterinary Voices is brought toyou by VetStaff, new Zealand's
only recruitment agency,specialising in helping
veterinary professionals findjobs that they're excited about
going to on Monday mornings inKiwi Vet Clinics, vetstaffconz.
It's been a while since DrHelen Beattie has been a guest
(01:37):
on this podcast.
It was back in February 2022for the first time, and that was
episode 69.
As you'll hear today, she's notone to let the grass grow under
her feet and she's achieved alot, all on behalf of animals,
in those last 30 months or so.
(01:58):
Dr Helen Beattie grew up on aSouth Island Central High
Country station before going toMassey University.
Her veterinary career startedoff in a mixed animal clinic in
North Otago.
Helen's OE included working onthe UK's foot and mouth response
in the UK.
From there she came home toGod's Own and bought a companion
(02:21):
animal clinic in Dunedin.
From clinic ownership, helenventured into teaching vet
nurses at Otago Polytechnic.
Not standing still on theeducation front, she picked up
the books herself to become awarranted animal welfare
inspector.
Whilst employed as the Directorof Animal Welfare at SPCA Otago
(02:43):
.
Burning the candle at both endsat the beginning of the
pandemic, as the New ZealandVeterinary Association's Chief
Veterinary Officer, dr Helen wasinstrumental in helping Kiwi
vet clinics navigate the ins andouts of staying open and safe
whilst New Zealand was declareda state of emergency.
(03:04):
At the NZVA, helen's role wasone of national level advocacy,
leadership and politicking onbehalf of the veterinary
profession and for animalwelfare.
Helen left the NZVA in late2021 and in February 2022,
launched the charitableorganisation that provides a
(03:25):
unique new voice for animalwelfare Veterinarians for Animal
Welfare Ōtiroa.
The organisation was thebrainchild of several veterinary
colleagues and provides aveterinary-led, science-backed,
independent advocacy voice onanimal welfare.
As well as holding a Bachelor ofVeterinary Science degree from
(03:47):
Massey University, dr Helen alsoholds a Certificate in Animal
Welfare Investigations.
She has a Graduate Certificatein Tertiary Learning and
Teaching and a Certificate inMata e Ao Maori.
I'll put all links Helenmentions today in the show notes
of this episode, which you'llbe able to find at
(04:09):
veterinaryvoices.
nz.
Dr Helen Beattie, it's been awhile two and a half three years
since we last chatted.
It's been a while two and ahalf three years since we last
chatted.
Vawa was a baby and lots ofthings have happened in that
(04:35):
time, so can you share pleasewith me listeners in New Zealand
and overseas just give a briefoverview of Vawa and then some
of the successes that havehappened in those two and a half
three years.
Dr Helen Beattie (04:50):
Sure, great to be back having a chat to you.
Yeah, so Vawa Veterinarians forAnimal Welfare, aotearoa, which
seems to be a name that peoplereally struggle with, so I often
think I should have chosen ashorter name, but it says what
we are and we are becomingincreasingly known just as VWA.
So that makes it a bit easier.
And I should say, just toclarify, we're led by
(05:12):
veterinarians.
Constitution requires that ourexecutive committee is a
majority of veterinarians.
Decisions on our constitutionhave to be made by a majority of
veterinarians, but we are opento everybody, so anyone who
likes the work that we're doingis able to join.
So it's meant to be acollective voice of people led
by veterinarians to champion thecause of animal welfare.
The byline, if you like, we'reabout a good life for all.
(05:35):
So in the animal welfare world,a good life is, you know, full
of positive welfareopportunities and not just, you
know, minimizing suffering, andthe for all piece speaks to the
fact that not only all animals,but actually people and the
environment within which we alllive and you know, papa Tuānuku,
who supports us all, also needsto have a good life, because if
she doesn't, then frankly, it'snot going to work out well for
(05:56):
any of us.
So that's our tagline and Iguess the nuts and bolts are
around being an independentexpert animal welfare advocacy
organization.
So most people kind of knowthat I'm reasonably passionate
about animal welfare and andhave you have developed some
skills in that area not where Ithought my career was going to
take me, but you know theinteresting twists and turns
(06:19):
over 28 years, yeah, and so weare involved in masses of
projects and from zoo welfare tolike cows on mud, which again
people know it's something I'vebeen a champion of, trying to
get some better outcomes for thecattle and the environment for
a number of years.
Cat management, pain reliefyeah, there's a wide range of
things and of course liveexports, which we will talk
(06:42):
about in a minute.
Julie South (06:44):
Just looking back over the last couple of years,
what are you most proud of?
Excited because of.
Dr Helen Beattie (06:53):
I guess when VAWA was set up, the first big
question was would we, could wesucceed?
Was there a space for thisvehicle?
Could I survive financially,make a living out of it?
That piece is a bit tenuous, tobe honest.
I'm waiting for a philanthropicdonor to fall out of the ether.
(07:13):
So that was a big question,right, was there longevity in
this?
Was there going to be work?
Would people look to us foradvice and what we had to say
and think that we had a place inthe advocacy sandpit?
So I think that's probably thesingle biggest win, if you like,
is that we're still here.
And now I guess, feel like wehave definitely stamped our mark
(07:35):
and people come to us regularlyfor advice from other
organisations to media to hearwhat we have to say.
So a very high level sort ofwhat's the thing that?
That's probably it.
We're here and we, and we'restill here.
Julie South (07:48):
So you're still here, yeah, because you know
being self-employed it's anexciting, scary place to live
different kind of stresses tobeing an employee yeah, yeah,
definitely.
Dr Helen Beattie (08:04):
I mean I people say to me I don't know
how you work from home and allof that.
I mean I'm a bit of aworkaholic, so the you know,
focusing and doing the work isnot the problem, and the
intention of our was always thatwe would be able to.
I mean, if you look on ourwebsite and go to our work and
all the stuff that we've done,the vast majority of that is
done from a charitableperspective, so people don't pay
us for that work.
We're here to help.
(08:24):
But I have survived off doingconsultancy work and which is,
you know, it's great becausethat's I can, you know, put food
on the table and I'm still here.
But ideally, what I would likeis for VAWA to be able to do
everything for nothing like and,as I say that we actually had a
significant donor that cameforward and said we like what
you're doing and prepared tosupport it, because, I don't
know, maybe because I'm a bit ofa socialist and I just I would
(08:48):
really like our services to beavailable to everybody and not
have to worry about who can andcan't afford to to use or hear
from us.
So that would be my overarchinggoal.
If there was something that Ihaven't yet achieved, that's it
to be able to give everything toeverybody all of the time, yeah
, which is, you know, that mightbe a bit lofty, but that's
(09:09):
still something I'd like to beable to achieve in the long term
For listeners, and have a teamof people to help me do that,
julie, because I can't do it allmyself.
Julie South (09:15):
Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, wearing many hats Forlisteners.
I will put links for you to beable to find out more about Vawa
in the show notes and where togo to support Helen Helen live
exports.
Talk to me about that, please,because I thought we had this
(09:36):
sussed in New Zealand.
Dr Helen Beattie (09:38):
Oh, we did yeah, we did yeah again.
So my involvement in this hasrun back a number of years and,
to be honest, when I first kindof came across live exports and
well, actually going back a lotof years my dad I mean many
people know that I grew up inthe high country and dad
actually exported some sheep anddid it once and then didn't do
it again, because we know thatthe sheep story going up to the
(10:01):
Middle East was particularlychallenging from a welfare
perspective and there were someterrible stories that happened
around our sheep exports.
So that was when I was a, youknow, a babe essentially.
So then roll forward to theadvocacy work I'd.
So I kind of knew that and hadthat in the back of my mind, but
I think a lot of us don't.
It's really hard to kind ofunderstand exactly what's going
(10:21):
on on the vessels and during thevoyages.
And then, through a set ofweird circumstances as is wont
to be the case in New Zealand,where it's two degrees of
separation I ended up meetingsomeone who kind of opened my
eyes, I suppose, to what wasgoing on.
They hadn't been on a voyage,but were able to connect me to
Dr Lynn Simpson, who's prettyfamous in this space.
So she's sailed 57 voyages andthere's stuff on our website you
(10:44):
can go and see what she has tosay about that.
But I mean, lynn's a prettyblunt, you know, straight up,
pretty doesn't pull any punches,and you spend some time talking
(11:05):
to her and go.
There's just yeah, there's justmassive, massive challenges
around putting animals onvessels and getting them safely
from one side of well, from NewZealand to China.
So that kind of led my whole.
Actually this is something thatif people knew and understood
what happens on these vessels sono effluent management system,
for example.
You know heat and humiditychallenges, significant and
serious heat stress, reallycramped conditions, challenges
around the actual infrastructure, making sure the animals get
fed and there's enough fodderreserves if things go wrong so
(11:26):
that they can afford to wait forthree or five days if things go
wrong.
But all of these things arereally significant
vulnerabilities during a voyage.
And I just don't think thatprior to the advocacy that
happened when MPI started theirreview and then Gulf Livestock
One sank, I just don't think alot of people really understood
(11:47):
self-included, to be fair, untilabout 2017, maybe, yeah, didn't
really understand kind of thechallenges that were there.
And once you've seen it, you'rekind of like there's just no
way we should be doing this,it's too risky, we've got other
ways we could be doing this.
It's a tiny amount of money inthe big picture yes, it's been
lucrative for a small number ofpeople, but in the big picture
it's actually.
It's highly risky, bad for ourreputation, terrible experience
(12:10):
for the animals, and thesevessels sink more often than
other vessels.
So that led me to where we are,which is, you know, with Vahwa
saying like there's no way to dothis safely.
I'm absolutely clear about that.
There is no way.
Julie South (12:31):
One of the things I didn't realise that for.
I presume it's for all bovine,not just dairy cows that stress,
hate stress kicks in at about20 degrees Celsius.
That's not very, that's notvery high.
It doesn't take much to reachthat and I dread to think what
those temperatures would be likebelow deck.
Dr Helen Beattie (12:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
And on that we have asignificant challenge here
onshore because we have tens ofthousands of dairy cows in
Canterbury who have no shade allsummer, who are also
experiencing significant heatstress which reduces their milk
production.
So it's it's nonsensical andand unacceptable.
But obviously you know,changing that system when we've
(13:13):
got center pivots that don't gowell with trees and and shade is
another whole thing.
But yes to to your point,that's correct.
So 22, 23 degrees plus a bit ofhumidity, and dairy cattle
start to experience heat stress.
And on these vessels when theycross the equator we're talking
about temperatures upwards of 30, 32, 33 degrees plus really
(13:34):
high humidity.
And some of the vets becauseI've worked with whistleblowers
who have been on these vesselsthat have chosen to remain
anonymous but have provided alot of intel and photographs and
stuff to me these animals diefrom heat stress sometimes and I
get frustrated because I hearMPI talking about the low death
rates and that actually theremight be more animals dying on
(13:55):
farm than what die on thesevessels.
It is such a ridiculous way tolook at animal welfare.
You know you can suffer withoutdying and in fact I would say
the morbidity, the number ofanimals that are affected by
heat stress on these vessels isis probably 100 percent for that
period of time, particularlygoing over the equator, in
(14:16):
relation to heat stress, butfrom a cramped conditions,
having an inappropriate lyingsurface, rough flooring,
standing in their own effluent.
That's for the duration of thevoyage.
And you know, we, we, yeah, Imean again, if, if there's so
much good stuff happening onthese vessels, then please show
me the evidence, because we'rejust not seeing that falling out
(14:38):
.
Julie, we're providing a lot ofsaying.
Here's what we understand it tolook like.
So what is the other side?
And we just don't see it.
Now, you read into that whatyou will, but I'm left in no
doubt, having spoken to people,that the images that we see,
even if they are coming offAustralian voyages, are
absolutely relevant to whathappens to our animals and in
fact we have an affidavit froman anonymous vet saying as much.
(14:59):
That might be Australianfootage, but that's exactly what
I experienced when I was on avoyage out of New Zealand.
Julie South (15:05):
When I first started with vet staff which was
2019, I was kind of obliviousto this whole export live export
thing and I remember one locumcoming to me, or a vet who was a
locum, wanting to know whetherlocum work would be financially
(15:28):
more rewarding than the liveexport work that he was doing,
because the live export work wasvery, very lucrative.
Dr Helen Beattie (15:39):
It paid extremely well for short periods
of time yeah, and I don't haveup-to-date figures on that, but
I understand that is still thecase like it's.
There's certainly some money tobe made in there, but it also,
you know that then comes down to.
You know what are yourpriorities in life and what's
your value set and you know whatdo you want to be remembered
for.
And I mean, it's probablypretty clear where my values lie
(16:00):
around that stuff.
And it's that we should bedoing the right thing for these
animals who have no agency aboutwhether or not they choose to
walk onto that boat or not, atleast the people who are going.
You know they're making achoice for themselves.
But we're loading up thoseanimals and giving them no
choice.
And you know which we do and awhole bunch of know how we farm
them and all the rest of it.
But when we're knowinglysending them into 18 to 21 days
(16:22):
of pretty horrendous conditionsand with the additional risk of
sinking, like I know, you knowwe might say, well, there's only
been Gulf Livestock 1, you know, ex-new Zealand, sure, I accept
that.
But if you actually look at thedata, these vessels, they do
seem to be more singable thanyour average in the fleet.
Most of them are really old.
A lot of them are converted carcontainer boats and so they're
(16:45):
not designed with animal welfarein mind.
And, overarchingly, all of thatstuff aside, transport's
inherently stressful for animals, irrespective of whether you're
putting them on a ship andsending them to China or whether
you're putting them on atransport truck and sending them
to the works.
We know transport is stressful.
You get mixing and confinementand it smells weird in the
(17:07):
movement and there's any numberof things that are challenging
for animals, let alone puttingthem to sea and the temperature,
humidity and standing in theirown effluent.
Just circling back, I don'twant to gloss over what I said
about golf livestock one.
It was an absolute tragedy andit just, it just about reduces
me to tears still to think abouthow terrifying it must have
(17:28):
been for not just the 41 or the43, but the 41 people that died
and the two people that survivedand the you know what was it?
5678 heifers.
It's just awful to think abouttheir last moments, you know,
being thrown around and justterrible, terrible.
Julie South (17:47):
Let's move on to see whether we can not, to see
whether to take steps to helpyou, support you, so that
they're we don't have to havethis conversation again.
Where are you at right now andwhat can we do to support you?
(18:07):
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Now let's get back to today'sshow.
Dr Helen Beattie (19:34):
There's every chance, I think that this repeal
is going to happen.
The government's been prettyclear about that and so far
there's been a bunch of thingsthey've said they'll do that
many of us might find egregious,like the smoking legislation or
whatever and they've done itanyway.
So I'm not convinced that we'renecessarily going to be any
more successful in managing tochange their minds.
(19:56):
I would say like, in the longterm we will win this because
Labour and the Greens havepromised to put the ban back in
place.
So even if it does get repealed, there's massive uncertainty
for the industry because in theshort term so either in the next
18 months or the next four anda half years it's going to be
banned again.
So to my mind you'd be a bit ofan idiot to start to invest in
(20:16):
it when you know that this isgoing to happen again.
And I think internationallythat vulnerability and
uncertainty from aninternational perspective will
make people really questionwhether or not they should
bother to start investing backhere in New Zealand.
So that's kind of the longpicture.
In the end we will win this,julie.
I'm very clear about that.
It's just whether we have to gothrough this major setback in
the meantime and submit a wholebunch more animals to a bunch of
(20:40):
suffering they shouldn't needto experience.
So the select committee processwe haven't got dates for that
yet.
For those people who are notfollowing closely, the first
reading has happened in the bill.
It's been in the House.
Sorry, it's been now.
No, it hasn't.
Sorry, they're telling us thatthat's going to happen and then
it's going to go to selectcommittee.
We don't have dates for thatyet, but they were talking about
(21:01):
in the first quarter or early2025.
And there's some targetedconsultation going on November,
december apparently, aboutsetting up and looking at the
details under the repeal.
So the repeal itself was onebit of the Act that says at the
moment it's banned.
They obviously need to juststrike that out and reinstate it
, but there has to be a bunch ofthings underneath that that the
(21:24):
government has promised aroundhow they intend to improve
welfare standards, and so thosedetails, as we understand it,
are being consulted with some ofthe interested parties at the
moment and there will be someopportunity to feedback on that
in 2025.
To be honest, we're not reallyclear about what's going on.
It's one of the most confusingconsultation processes that I've
come across and I've been doingthis for a while.
(21:45):
So what we can do in themeantime?
We would love everybody to makeChristopher Luxon's inbox quite
full of emails so he can hearfrom the general public around
their objection to this move,and that can happen any time.
So I say, get amongst it.
His email was on the website.
Email him and tell him what youthink.
(22:08):
We're staying focused on Luxon.
Ultimately, he is theopportunity to change this
decision.
Hoggard's obviously verydetermined to put it through,
but Luxon could, the nationalpart of the government could axe
that.
So pile in.
I say, send him an email andthe more the merrier spread the
word.
If we could make it viral insome sort of pyramid emailing
scheme, that would be great.
(22:29):
And then when the actualconsultation happens through the
select committee plus or minusthis MPI consultation like I say
, we're not very clear aboutwhat's going on around that Then
it would be great to get peoplefeeding back on that too.
And I think the easiest way todo that is to you know like
follow our website or say forwhoever your favourite party is,
so you can stay up to date withwhat's happening and we'll all
(22:51):
be letting you know like here'swhat's happening, here's what
you need to do, et cetera, etcetera, yeah, and then you know,
either 18 months or four and ahalf years time we repeat the
process again.
You know, at this time goingyes, please ban it again.
So you know I'm focused on thelong game, we will win.
But yeah, it's going to be abit rocky getting there?
Julie South (23:09):
are there countries that have already banned or are
going through this process, orhave never done it to start with
?
Dr Helen Beattie (23:20):
yeah, all of the above.
So Australia's just legislatedtheir ban on live sheep exports
for 2028, I think it is the EUhas.
It's a bit confusing in the EU,right, because it's big and
they have cross-border transportand things as well, but they
have made moves in theirdirection of travellers around
(23:42):
banning exports to countriesthat, for example, have lower
welfare standards.
So that would be a reason whywe shouldn't be doing this and I
don't mean to be makingassumptions about things that I
can't necessarily validate everysingle farm in Chia where our
cows have ended up.
But we also know that ouranimal welfare laws written law
is very good and some of thebest in the world.
(24:04):
Implementation is sometimes achallenge, but it's pretty fair
to say that, generally speaking,exporting animals from New
Zealand to China, they're goinginto a lower welfare situation,
Certainly less legislation tosupport their welfare anyway or
to protect their welfare.
So that leaves us out of stepwith what's going on in the EU.
Who are making exactly theopposite decision?
(24:24):
Ireland and maybe Britain.
I'm not 100% clear aboutexactly what the coverage is,
but there's been moves made ofstopping the export by sea of
their bobby calves, for example.
So, yeah, I mean we'reabsolutely swimming against the
tide here.
The direction of travel forevery other country who does
this in some way, shape or formis to move, to put in more
(24:46):
restrictions on transport.
And, as I said before,fundamentally that comes down to
the fact that we understandthat transport for animals is
stressful there's no questionabout that, apart from some dogs
who love to get in the car andgo for a trip.
But for farmed animals, andactually often for horses too,
transport is stressful, andespecially long transport.
(25:08):
So hence the direction oftravel for all these other
countries.
So, after we put our ban inBrazil, came out and made a
statement about banning it aswell.
There's been some.
There was a political statementversus the reality of what's
going on, but again theyfollowed our lead and went.
Actually, this is something weneed to consider too.
That one's a bit contentious.
But again, direction of travelis what we did when we banned it
(25:31):
, not what we're doing,repealing it.
Julie South (25:33):
Which is a bit sad when you think about how New
Zealand is usually so good atleading the way.
Dr Helen Beattie (25:41):
Yeah, this is entirely regressive.
I mean this is and it is 100%about a small number of people
who make some money and I knowthe numbers get flung around and
it sounds like a lot, but inthe big picture it's like 0.2%
of our export market.
It's tiny.
I accept for the people wholost that business that that
would have been difficult.
By the time this gets repealedwe'll be a couple of years down
(26:02):
the track and presumably thosebusinesses have not all failed.
They've pivoted and they'vefound other things to do with
their animals.
So you know, again, bringing itback in when we know it's going
to get banned again justactually creates uncertainty.
It's also stupid because themaritime union just came out and
said we don't want to loadthese animals, we're not in.
(26:25):
We think we oppose the repeal.
These are the people who putthese animals on these vessels.
That's a really significantstatement.
The Meat Industry Associationyou know they were talking about
the impacts of not with respectto live exports specifically,
but Smithfields recently closeddown right because of lack of
numbers going to the meatworksand you know this is another
120,000 animals that we'rebypassing and sending offshore.
So that has an impact on ourlocal communities and, as I keep
(26:45):
saying to people, because I getso sick of hearing about the
fact that this is a bobby calfsolution.
This is not a bobby calfsolution.
We export dairy heifers.
They're not our best geneticstock.
That's the other thing I getfrustrated about.
If you were to look at whatgets exported versus what's kept
, there's no way any farmer intheir right mind is going to
send their best heifer on avessel, right Like they keep
them for their own herd.
(27:06):
We are exporting still somepretty good genetics.
We've got good genetics.
But as far as what goes on thesevessels, some of these are
purpose-bred heifers.
So that's not a bobby cuff.
That doesn't impact the bobbycuff situation.
Some of them are beef animals,steers.
So it's not all about thewastage bobby calf and for those
of you who can't see me, I'vegot inverted commas around that
terrible term wastage but alsoit's 120,000 animals.
(27:30):
At peak it was just over120,000.
We kill 1.8 million bobbycalves every year.
This doesn't even touch thesides of that and that bobby
calf challenge needs theindustry to sit down and
actually have a properconversation about what we're
going to do about that, becauseit's losing social license
rapidly and everybody knows thatright when we think about 1.8
(27:51):
million bobbies, it's ano-brainer that there has to be
a big, hard conversation hadaround what we do about that.
Certainly, sending 120,000animals on a vessel yearly is
not a solution to 1.8 millionbobbies.
So I get really frustrated whenI hear that from federated
farmers.
It's just, it's a rubbishargument.
(28:13):
I think if there was oneadditional comment that I could
make, I get frustrated that.
You know, when we look at thecommentators coming out
supporting the reinstatement,it's all of the people who have
vested interests, people who aremaking money out of this, and
whether that's directly makingmoney out of it or supporting
(28:33):
the farmers who make money outof it, that is not independence,
that is a biased view that iscontributing to their advocacy.
And when you take a step backand look at the likes of V, who
are completely independent fromthis we've looked at all the
evidence and the science andeverything that's been published
and gone, this can't be donesafely then surely those two
views are worth somethingdifferent.
(28:54):
You know, being a completelyindependent person who makes no
money out of it whatsoever, andI I do get frustrated that that
doesn't seem to count foranything.
It's like.
Well, that doesn't seem fairand just in a world that should
be fair and just, which I'm veryaware it most generally is.
It most often isn't, julie, butthat does seem a bit crazy to
me.
Julie South (29:18):
If you're not a member of vawaconz, that's V-A-W
.
Vawaconz, that's v-a-w-aconz.
Then check out the differentmembership options, starting at
just $50 per annum.
There are membership categoriesfor both registered
veterinarians and non-registeredveterinarians.
If you want to get behind NewZealand's continued ban of live
(29:41):
exports, you can email our RightHonourable Prime Minister at
christopherluxin atparliamentgovtnz and email him
like Helen suggested.
I'll put that in the show notesfor you as well.
Tune back in next week, becauseHelen and I talk about things
(30:04):
feline and cats, especially catmanagement.
This is Julie South signing offand inviting you to go out
there and be your mostfantabulous self Until next week
.
Kakiti anō no.
As a veterinary professional, where do you stand
when it comes to live exports?
Do you think it's okay toexpose animals to the stressed
and inhumane conditions that gowith getting, say, heifers from
New Zealand to China?
And then what about the qualityof their lives once they reach
(00:25):
their destination?
Where do you stand on thoseconditions?
Join me today as I catch upwith Dr Helen Beattie to hear
her views when it comes to liveexports.
Welcome to Veterinary Voices.
This is episode 215 and I'myour host, julie South.
With listeners tuning in fromover 1,400 cities worldwide,
(00:51):
veterinary Voices celebrates allthat's great about working in
New Zealand's veterinaryindustry.
I'd love to hear where you'relistening from right now, so
please feel free to share yourlocation with me at
veterinaryvoicesnz, and it'salso at veterinaryvoicesnz where
you can find back copies aswell.
(01:13):
Veterinary Voices is brought toyou by VetStaff, new Zealand's
only recruitment agency,specialising in helping
veterinary professionals findjobs that they're excited about
going to on Monday mornings inKiwi Vet Clinics, vetstaffconz.
It's been a while since DrHelen Beattie has been a guest
(01:37):
on this podcast.
It was back in February 2022for the first time, and that was
episode 69.
As you'll hear today, she's notone to let the grass grow under
her feet and she's achieved alot, all on behalf of animals,
in those last 30 months or so.
(01:58):
Dr Helen Beattie grew up on aSouth Island Central High
Country station before going toMassey University.
Her veterinary career startedoff in a mixed animal clinic in
North Otago.
Helen's OE included working onthe UK's foot and mouth response
in the UK.
From there she came home toGod's Own and bought a companion
(02:21):
animal clinic in Dunedin.
From clinic ownership, helenventured into teaching vet
nurses at Otago Polytechnic.
Not standing still on theeducation front, she picked up
the books herself to become awarranted animal welfare
inspector.
Whilst employed as the Directorof Animal Welfare at SPCA Otago
(02:43):
.
Burning the candle at both endsat the beginning of the
pandemic, as the New ZealandVeterinary Association's Chief
Veterinary Officer, dr Helen wasinstrumental in helping Kiwi
vet clinics navigate the ins andouts of staying open and safe
whilst New Zealand was declareda state of emergency.
(03:04):
At the NZVA, helen's role wasone of national level advocacy,
leadership and politicking onbehalf of the veterinary
profession and for animalwelfare.
Helen left the NZVA in late2021 and in February 2022,
launched the charitableorganisation that provides a
(03:25):
unique new voice for animalwelfare Veterinarians for Animal
Welfare Ōtiroa.
The organisation was thebrainchild of several veterinary
colleagues and provides aveterinary-led, science-backed,
independent advocacy voice onanimal welfare.
As well as holding a Bachelor ofVeterinary Science degree from
(03:47):
Massey University, dr Helen alsoholds a Certificate in Animal
Welfare Investigations.
She has a Graduate Certificatein Tertiary Learning and
Teaching and a Certificate inMata e Ao Maori.
I'll put all links Helenmentions today in the show notes
of this episode, which you'llbe able to find at
(04:09):
veterinaryvoices.
nz.
Dr Helen Beattie, it's been awhile two and a half three years
since we last chatted.
It's been a while two and ahalf three years since we last
chatted.
Vawa was a baby and lots ofthings have happened in that
(04:35):
time, so can you share pleasewith me listeners in New Zealand
and overseas just give a briefoverview of Vawa and then some
of the successes that havehappened in those two and a half
three years.
Dr Helen Beattie (04:50):
Sure, great to be back having a chat to you.
Yeah, so Vawa Veterinarians forAnimal Welfare, aotearoa, which
seems to be a name that peoplereally struggle with, so I often
think I should have chosen ashorter name, but it says what
we are and we are becomingincreasingly known just as VWA.
So that makes it a bit easier.
And I should say, just toclarify, we're led by
(05:12):
veterinarians.
Constitution requires that ourexecutive committee is a
majority of veterinarians.
Decisions on our constitutionhave to be made by a majority of
veterinarians, but we are opento everybody, so anyone who
likes the work that we're doingis able to join.
So it's meant to be acollective voice of people led
by veterinarians to champion thecause of animal welfare.
The byline, if you like, we'reabout a good life for all.
(05:35):
So in the animal welfare world,a good life is, you know, full
of positive welfareopportunities and not just, you
know, minimizing suffering, andthe for all piece speaks to the
fact that not only all animals,but actually people and the
environment within which we alllive and you know, papa Tuānuku,
who supports us all, also needsto have a good life, because if
she doesn't, then frankly, it'snot going to work out well for
(05:56):
any of us.
So that's our tagline and Iguess the nuts and bolts are
around being an independentexpert animal welfare advocacy
organization.
So most people kind of knowthat I'm reasonably passionate
about animal welfare and andhave you have developed some
skills in that area not where Ithought my career was going to
take me, but you know theinteresting twists and turns
(06:19):
over 28 years, yeah, and so weare involved in masses of
projects and from zoo welfare tolike cows on mud, which again
people know it's something I'vebeen a champion of, trying to
get some better outcomes for thecattle and the environment for
a number of years.
Cat management, pain reliefyeah, there's a wide range of
things and of course liveexports, which we will talk
(06:42):
about in a minute.
Julie South (06:44):
Just looking back over the last couple of years,
what are you most proud of?
Excited because of.
Dr Helen Beattie (06:53):
I guess when VAWA was set up, the first big
question was would we, could wesucceed?
Was there a space for thisvehicle?
Could I survive financially,make a living out of it?
That piece is a bit tenuous, tobe honest.
I'm waiting for a philanthropicdonor to fall out of the ether.
(07:13):
So that was a big question,right, was there longevity in
this?
Was there going to be work?
Would people look to us foradvice and what we had to say
and think that we had a place inthe advocacy sandpit?
So I think that's probably thesingle biggest win, if you like,
is that we're still here.
And now I guess, feel like wehave definitely stamped our mark
(07:35):
and people come to us regularlyfor advice from other
organisations to media to hearwhat we have to say.
So a very high level sort ofwhat's the thing that?
That's probably it.
We're here and we, and we'restill here.
Julie South (07:48):
So you're still here, yeah, because you know
being self-employed it's anexciting, scary place to live
different kind of stresses tobeing an employee yeah, yeah,
definitely.
Dr Helen Beattie (08:04):
I mean I people say to me I don't know
how you work from home and allof that.
I mean I'm a bit of aworkaholic, so the you know,
focusing and doing the work isnot the problem, and the
intention of our was always thatwe would be able to.
I mean, if you look on ourwebsite and go to our work and
all the stuff that we've done,the vast majority of that is
done from a charitableperspective, so people don't pay
us for that work.
We're here to help.
(08:24):
But I have survived off doingconsultancy work and which is,
you know, it's great becausethat's I can, you know, put food
on the table and I'm still here.
But ideally, what I would likeis for VAWA to be able to do
everything for nothing like and,as I say that we actually had a
significant donor that cameforward and said we like what
you're doing and prepared tosupport it, because, I don't
know, maybe because I'm a bit ofa socialist and I just I would
(08:48):
really like our services to beavailable to everybody and not
have to worry about who can andcan't afford to to use or hear
from us.
So that would be my overarchinggoal.
If there was something that Ihaven't yet achieved, that's it
to be able to give everything toeverybody all of the time, yeah
, which is, you know, that mightbe a bit lofty, but that's
(09:09):
still something I'd like to beable to achieve in the long term
For listeners, and have a teamof people to help me do that,
julie, because I can't do it allmyself.
Julie South (09:15):
Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, wearing many hats Forlisteners.
I will put links for you to beable to find out more about Vawa
in the show notes and where togo to support Helen Helen live
exports.
Talk to me about that, please,because I thought we had this
(09:36):
sussed in New Zealand.
Dr Helen Beattie (09:38):
Oh, we did yeah, we did yeah again.
So my involvement in this hasrun back a number of years and,
to be honest, when I first kindof came across live exports and
well, actually going back a lotof years my dad I mean many
people know that I grew up inthe high country and dad
actually exported some sheep anddid it once and then didn't do
it again, because we know thatthe sheep story going up to the
(10:01):
Middle East was particularlychallenging from a welfare
perspective and there were someterrible stories that happened
around our sheep exports.
So that was when I was a, youknow, a babe essentially.
So then roll forward to theadvocacy work I'd.
So I kind of knew that and hadthat in the back of my mind, but
I think a lot of us don't.
It's really hard to kind ofunderstand exactly what's going
(10:21):
on on the vessels and during thevoyages.
And then, through a set ofweird circumstances as is wont
to be the case in New Zealand,where it's two degrees of
separation I ended up meetingsomeone who kind of opened my
eyes, I suppose, to what wasgoing on.
They hadn't been on a voyage,but were able to connect me to
Dr Lynn Simpson, who's prettyfamous in this space.
So she's sailed 57 voyages andthere's stuff on our website you
(10:44):
can go and see what she has tosay about that.
But I mean, lynn's a prettyblunt, you know, straight up,
pretty doesn't pull any punches,and you spend some time talking
(11:05):
to her and go.
There's just yeah, there's justmassive, massive challenges
around putting animals onvessels and getting them safely
from one side of well, from NewZealand to China.
So that kind of led my whole.
Actually this is something thatif people knew and understood
what happens on these vessels sono effluent management system,
for example.
You know heat and humiditychallenges, significant and
serious heat stress, reallycramped conditions, challenges
around the actual infrastructure, making sure the animals get
fed and there's enough fodderreserves if things go wrong so
(11:26):
that they can afford to wait forthree or five days if things go
wrong.
But all of these things arereally significant
vulnerabilities during a voyage.
And I just don't think thatprior to the advocacy that
happened when MPI started theirreview and then Gulf Livestock
One sank, I just don't think alot of people really understood
(11:47):
self-included, to be fair, untilabout 2017, maybe, yeah, didn't
really understand kind of thechallenges that were there.
And once you've seen it, you'rekind of like there's just no
way we should be doing this,it's too risky, we've got other
ways we could be doing this.
It's a tiny amount of money inthe big picture yes, it's been
lucrative for a small number ofpeople, but in the big picture
it's actually.
It's highly risky, bad for ourreputation, terrible experience
(12:10):
for the animals, and thesevessels sink more often than
other vessels.
So that led me to where we are,which is, you know, with Vahwa
saying like there's no way to dothis safely.
I'm absolutely clear about that.
There is no way.
Julie South (12:31):
One of the things I didn't realise that for.
I presume it's for all bovine,not just dairy cows that stress,
hate stress kicks in at about20 degrees Celsius.
That's not very, that's notvery high.
It doesn't take much to reachthat and I dread to think what
those temperatures would be likebelow deck.
Dr Helen Beattie (12:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
And on that we have asignificant challenge here
onshore because we have tens ofthousands of dairy cows in
Canterbury who have no shade allsummer, who are also
experiencing significant heatstress which reduces their milk
production.
So it's it's nonsensical andand unacceptable.
But obviously you know,changing that system when we've
(13:13):
got center pivots that don't gowell with trees and and shade is
another whole thing.
But yes to to your point,that's correct.
So 22, 23 degrees plus a bit ofhumidity, and dairy cattle
start to experience heat stress.
And on these vessels when theycross the equator we're talking
about temperatures upwards of 30, 32, 33 degrees plus really
(13:34):
high humidity.
And some of the vets becauseI've worked with whistleblowers
who have been on these vesselsthat have chosen to remain
anonymous but have provided alot of intel and photographs and
stuff to me these animals diefrom heat stress sometimes and I
get frustrated because I hearMPI talking about the low death
rates and that actually theremight be more animals dying on
(13:55):
farm than what die on thesevessels.
It is such a ridiculous way tolook at animal welfare.
You know you can suffer withoutdying and in fact I would say
the morbidity, the number ofanimals that are affected by
heat stress on these vessels isis probably 100 percent for that
period of time, particularlygoing over the equator, in
(14:16):
relation to heat stress, butfrom a cramped conditions,
having an inappropriate lyingsurface, rough flooring,
standing in their own effluent.
That's for the duration of thevoyage.
And you know, we, we, yeah, Imean again, if, if there's so
much good stuff happening onthese vessels, then please show
me the evidence, because we'rejust not seeing that falling out
(14:38):
.
Julie, we're providing a lot ofsaying.
Here's what we understand it tolook like.
So what is the other side?
And we just don't see it.
Now, you read into that whatyou will, but I'm left in no
doubt, having spoken to people,that the images that we see,
even if they are coming offAustralian voyages, are
absolutely relevant to whathappens to our animals and in
fact we have an affidavit froman anonymous vet saying as much.
(14:59):
That might be Australianfootage, but that's exactly what
I experienced when I was on avoyage out of New Zealand.
Julie South (15:05):
When I first started with vet staff which was
2019, I was kind of obliviousto this whole export live export
thing and I remember one locumcoming to me, or a vet who was a
locum, wanting to know whetherlocum work would be financially
(15:28):
more rewarding than the liveexport work that he was doing,
because the live export work wasvery, very lucrative.
Dr Helen Beattie (15:39):
It paid extremely well for short periods
of time yeah, and I don't haveup-to-date figures on that, but
I understand that is still thecase like it's.
There's certainly some money tobe made in there, but it also,
you know that then comes down to.
You know what are yourpriorities in life and what's
your value set and you know whatdo you want to be remembered
for.
And I mean, it's probablypretty clear where my values lie
(16:00):
around that stuff.
And it's that we should bedoing the right thing for these
animals who have no agency aboutwhether or not they choose to
walk onto that boat or not, atleast the people who are going.
You know they're making achoice for themselves.
But we're loading up thoseanimals and giving them no
choice.
And you know which we do and awhole bunch of know how we farm
them and all the rest of it.
But when we're knowinglysending them into 18 to 21 days
(16:22):
of pretty horrendous conditionsand with the additional risk of
sinking, like I know, you knowwe might say, well, there's only
been Gulf Livestock 1, you know, ex-new Zealand, sure, I accept
that.
But if you actually look at thedata, these vessels, they do
seem to be more singable thanyour average in the fleet.
Most of them are really old.
A lot of them are converted carcontainer boats and so they're
(16:45):
not designed with animal welfarein mind.
And, overarchingly, all of thatstuff aside, transport's
inherently stressful for animals, irrespective of whether you're
putting them on a ship andsending them to China or whether
you're putting them on atransport truck and sending them
to the works.
We know transport is stressful.
You get mixing and confinementand it smells weird in the
(17:07):
movement and there's any numberof things that are challenging
for animals, let alone puttingthem to sea and the temperature,
humidity and standing in theirown effluent.
Just circling back, I don'twant to gloss over what I said
about golf livestock one.
It was an absolute tragedy andit just, it just about reduces
me to tears still to think abouthow terrifying it must have
(17:28):
been for not just the 41 or the43, but the 41 people that died
and the two people that survivedand the you know what was it?
5678 heifers.
It's just awful to think abouttheir last moments, you know,
being thrown around and justterrible, terrible.
Julie South (17:47):
Let's move on to see whether we can not, to see
whether to take steps to helpyou, support you, so that
they're we don't have to havethis conversation again.
Where are you at right now andwhat can we do to support you?
(18:07):
What would you like us to do?
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Now let's get back to today'sshow.
Dr Helen Beattie (19:34):
There's every chance, I think that this repeal
is going to happen.
The government's been prettyclear about that and so far
there's been a bunch of thingsthey've said they'll do that
many of us might find egregious,like the smoking legislation or
whatever and they've done itanyway.
So I'm not convinced that we'renecessarily going to be any
more successful in managing tochange their minds.
(19:56):
I would say like, in the longterm we will win this because
Labour and the Greens havepromised to put the ban back in
place.
So even if it does get repealed, there's massive uncertainty
for the industry because in theshort term so either in the next
18 months or the next four anda half years it's going to be
banned again.
So to my mind you'd be a bit ofan idiot to start to invest in
(20:16):
it when you know that this isgoing to happen again.
And I think internationallythat vulnerability and
uncertainty from aninternational perspective will
make people really questionwhether or not they should
bother to start investing backhere in New Zealand.
So that's kind of the longpicture.
In the end we will win this,julie.
I'm very clear about that.
It's just whether we have to gothrough this major setback in
the meantime and submit a wholebunch more animals to a bunch of
(20:40):
suffering they shouldn't needto experience.
So the select committee processwe haven't got dates for that
yet.
For those people who are notfollowing closely, the first
reading has happened in the bill.
It's been in the House.
Sorry, it's been now.
No, it hasn't.
Sorry, they're telling us thatthat's going to happen and then
it's going to go to selectcommittee.
We don't have dates for thatyet, but they were talking about
(21:01):
in the first quarter or early2025.
And there's some targetedconsultation going on November,
december apparently, aboutsetting up and looking at the
details under the repeal.
So the repeal itself was onebit of the Act that says at the
moment it's banned.
They obviously need to juststrike that out and reinstate it
, but there has to be a bunch ofthings underneath that that the
(21:24):
government has promised aroundhow they intend to improve
welfare standards, and so thosedetails, as we understand it,
are being consulted with some ofthe interested parties at the
moment and there will be someopportunity to feedback on that
in 2025.
To be honest, we're not reallyclear about what's going on.
It's one of the most confusingconsultation processes that I've
come across and I've been doingthis for a while.
(21:45):
So what we can do in themeantime?
We would love everybody to makeChristopher Luxon's inbox quite
full of emails so he can hearfrom the general public around
their objection to this move,and that can happen any time.
So I say, get amongst it.
His email was on the website.
Email him and tell him what youthink.
(22:08):
We're staying focused on Luxon.
Ultimately, he is theopportunity to change this
decision.
Hoggard's obviously verydetermined to put it through,
but Luxon could, the nationalpart of the government could axe
that.
So pile in.
I say, send him an email andthe more the merrier spread the
word.
If we could make it viral insome sort of pyramid emailing
scheme, that would be great.
(22:29):
And then when the actualconsultation happens through the
select committee plus or minusthis MPI consultation like I say
, we're not very clear aboutwhat's going on around that Then
it would be great to get peoplefeeding back on that too.
And I think the easiest way todo that is to you know like
follow our website or say forwhoever your favourite party is,
so you can stay up to date withwhat's happening and we'll all
(22:51):
be letting you know like here'swhat's happening, here's what
you need to do, et cetera, etcetera, yeah, and then you know,
either 18 months or four and ahalf years time we repeat the
process again.
You know, at this time goingyes, please ban it again.
So you know I'm focused on thelong game, we will win.
But yeah, it's going to be abit rocky getting there?
Julie South (23:09):
are there countries that have already banned or are
going through this process, orhave never done it to start with
?
Dr Helen Beattie (23:20):
yeah, all of the above.
So Australia's just legislatedtheir ban on live sheep exports
for 2028, I think it is the EUhas.
It's a bit confusing in the EU,right, because it's big and
they have cross-border transportand things as well, but they
have made moves in theirdirection of travellers around
(23:42):
banning exports to countriesthat, for example, have lower
welfare standards.
So that would be a reason whywe shouldn't be doing this and I
don't mean to be makingassumptions about things that I
can't necessarily validate everysingle farm in Chia where our
cows have ended up.
But we also know that ouranimal welfare laws written law
is very good and some of thebest in the world.
(24:04):
Implementation is sometimes achallenge, but it's pretty fair
to say that, generally speaking,exporting animals from New
Zealand to China, they're goinginto a lower welfare situation,
Certainly less legislation tosupport their welfare anyway or
to protect their welfare.
So that leaves us out of stepwith what's going on in the EU.
Who are making exactly theopposite decision?
(24:24):
Ireland and maybe Britain.
I'm not 100% clear aboutexactly what the coverage is,
but there's been moves made ofstopping the export by sea of
their bobby calves, for example.
So, yeah, I mean we'reabsolutely swimming against the
tide here.
The direction of travel forevery other country who does
this in some way, shape or formis to move, to put in more
(24:46):
restrictions on transport.
And, as I said before,fundamentally that comes down to
the fact that we understandthat transport for animals is
stressful there's no questionabout that, apart from some dogs
who love to get in the car andgo for a trip.
But for farmed animals, andactually often for horses too,
transport is stressful, andespecially long transport.
(25:08):
So hence the direction oftravel for all these other
countries.
So, after we put our ban inBrazil, came out and made a
statement about banning it aswell.
There's been some.
There was a political statementversus the reality of what's
going on, but again theyfollowed our lead and went.
Actually, this is something weneed to consider too.
That one's a bit contentious.
But again, direction of travelis what we did when we banned it
(25:31):
, not what we're doing,repealing it.
Julie South (25:33):
Which is a bit sad when you think about how New
Zealand is usually so good atleading the way.
Dr Helen Beattie (25:41):
Yeah, this is entirely regressive.
I mean this is and it is 100%about a small number of people
who make some money and I knowthe numbers get flung around and
it sounds like a lot, but inthe big picture it's like 0.2%
of our export market.
It's tiny.
I accept for the people wholost that business that that
would have been difficult.
By the time this gets repealedwe'll be a couple of years down
(26:02):
the track and presumably thosebusinesses have not all failed.
They've pivoted and they'vefound other things to do with
their animals.
So you know, again, bringing itback in when we know it's going
to get banned again justactually creates uncertainty.
It's also stupid because themaritime union just came out and
said we don't want to loadthese animals, we're not in.
(26:25):
We think we oppose the repeal.
These are the people who putthese animals on these vessels.
That's a really significantstatement.
The Meat Industry Associationyou know they were talking about
the impacts of not with respectto live exports specifically,
but Smithfields recently closeddown right because of lack of
numbers going to the meatworksand you know this is another
120,000 animals that we'rebypassing and sending offshore.
So that has an impact on ourlocal communities and, as I keep
(26:45):
saying to people, because I getso sick of hearing about the
fact that this is a bobby calfsolution.
This is not a bobby calfsolution.
We export dairy heifers.
They're not our best geneticstock.
That's the other thing I getfrustrated about.
If you were to look at whatgets exported versus what's kept
, there's no way any farmer intheir right mind is going to
send their best heifer on avessel, right Like they keep
them for their own herd.
(27:06):
We are exporting still somepretty good genetics.
We've got good genetics.
But as far as what goes on thesevessels, some of these are
purpose-bred heifers.
So that's not a bobby cuff.
That doesn't impact the bobbycuff situation.
Some of them are beef animals,steers.
So it's not all about thewastage bobby calf and for those
of you who can't see me, I'vegot inverted commas around that
terrible term wastage but alsoit's 120,000 animals.
(27:30):
At peak it was just over120,000.
We kill 1.8 million bobbycalves every year.
This doesn't even touch thesides of that and that bobby
calf challenge needs theindustry to sit down and
actually have a properconversation about what we're
going to do about that, becauseit's losing social license
rapidly and everybody knows thatright when we think about 1.8
(27:51):
million bobbies, it's ano-brainer that there has to be
a big, hard conversation hadaround what we do about that.
Certainly, sending 120,000animals on a vessel yearly is
not a solution to 1.8 millionbobbies.
So I get really frustrated whenI hear that from federated
farmers.
It's just, it's a rubbishargument.
(28:13):
I think if there was oneadditional comment that I could
make, I get frustrated that.
You know, when we look at thecommentators coming out
supporting the reinstatement,it's all of the people who have
vested interests, people who aremaking money out of this, and
whether that's directly makingmoney out of it or supporting
(28:33):
the farmers who make money outof it, that is not independence,
that is a biased view that iscontributing to their advocacy.
And when you take a step backand look at the likes of V, who
are completely independent fromthis we've looked at all the
evidence and the science andeverything that's been published
and gone, this can't be donesafely then surely those two
views are worth somethingdifferent.
(28:54):
You know, being a completelyindependent person who makes no
money out of it whatsoever, andI I do get frustrated that that
doesn't seem to count foranything.
It's like.
Well, that doesn't seem fairand just in a world that should
be fair and just, which I'm veryaware it most generally is.
It most often isn't, julie, butthat does seem a bit crazy to
me.
Julie South (29:18):
If you're not a member of vawaconz, that's V-A-W
.
Vawaconz, that's v-a-w-aconz.
Then check out the differentmembership options, starting at
just $50 per annum.
There are membership categoriesfor both registered
veterinarians and non-registeredveterinarians.
If you want to get behind NewZealand's continued ban of live
(29:41):
exports, you can email our RightHonourable Prime Minister at
christopherluxin atparliamentgovtnz and email him
like Helen suggested.
I'll put that in the show notesfor you as well.
Tune back in next week, becauseHelen and I talk about things
(30:04):
feline and cats, especially catmanagement.
This is Julie South signing offand inviting you to go out
there and be your mostfantabulous self Until next week
.
Kakiti anō no.
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