September 30, 2024 • 25 mins
Ever wondered how the New Zealand veterinary nursing curriculum is evolving to better prepare future professionals?
Kristina Naden, RVN, BVN, NZCATT, MRurSci student - Senior Lecturer in Veterinary Nursing at Otago Polytechnic - gives an exclusive preview of the upcoming Diploma in Veterinary Nursing launching in New Zealand in February 2025.
Kristina chats about how this new qualification is a game-changing revamp for New Zealand veterinary nursing professionals.
Get ready to explore Kristina's passion for continuous learning and her in-depth research on the health and disease status of dogs in Tonga, along with her commitment to advancing veterinary education
Kristina shines a light on the (very!) significant updates to the Diploma in Veterinary Nursing, supported by a strong community of practice under Te Pūkenga.
In this episode Kristina chats with Julie about:
- veterinary nursing as a second career for her (at 03:39);
- why she chose veterinary nursing vs veterinarian studies (05:51);
- what her transition from clinical practice into teaching was like (10:11);
- some of the changes she's seen in the veterinary nursing curriculum in her time (13:24);
- what the new Dip VN looks like and how it will integrate into NZs veterinary clinics (18:07).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Julie South (00:04):
Welcome to Veterinary Voices episode 205.
I'm your ,J ulie South.
With listeners in 1,400 citiesaround the world, veterinary
Voices celebrates all that'sgreat about working in New
Zealand's veterinary industry.
You can find back copies atveterinaryvoicesnz.
(00:25):
Veterinary Voices is brought toyou by VetStaff, new Zealand's
only recruitment agencyspecialising in helping
veterinary professionals findjobs they're excited about going
to on Monday mornings in Kiwivet clinics, vet clinics
(00:50):
vetstaffconz.
Today I have the pleasure ofsharing the chat I had with
Senior Lecturer in VeterinaryNursing at the School of Animal
Health at Otago Polytechnic,Kristina Naden.
Have you heard that starting inFebruary 2025, so next year
there's a new veterinary nursingqualification rolling out in
New Zealand?
It's the Diploma in VeterinaryNursing, which is what Christina
(01:12):
and I are talking about in thistwo-part chat.
In case you're wondering ifthis episode is just for
veterinary nurses, what we talkabout is also important for
practice managers andveterinarians in clinic as well,
so stay tuned.
Kristina Naden has beenlecturing in veterinary nursing
since 2009.
(01:33):
She holds a bachelor's degreein veterinary nursing from
Auckland's Unitec.
She's currently doing hermaster's when we recorded this
episode in mid-September.
When we recorded this episodein mid-September, Kristina was
hoping to have heard that herMasters had been upgraded to a
PhD Whoa.
Veterinary nursing is a secondcareer for
Kristina Naden (01:54):
Christina
Julie South (01:55):
, after her first career choice in website
development and HTML coding.
As a veterinary nurse,christina originally started
working in mixed practice andthen moved into surgical nursing
in a referral clinic.
As you'll hear, she loveslearning.
Christina studied some more andis also trained as an equine
(02:18):
dental technician.
She's run her own successfulbusiness in equine dentistry
until her body couldn't handlethe physical demands placed on
it.
It was while working withhorses that Christina started
teaching, eventuallytransitioning to that full-time.
As well as being a studentherself.
She loves teaching and seeingher students progress and
(02:41):
connect the dots Along the way.
Christina Kristina discoveredher passion for research.
As well as her PhD research,she also has a couple of other
research projects underway.
She's currently researching andstudying the health and disease
status of dogs in Tonga.
And, for something completelydifferent, she's involved in the
(03:02):
engagement of allied veterinaryprofessionals with continuing
professional development.
Christina describes herself ashaving a curious mind and a love
for writing, qualities thatserve her well in her research
commitments and undertakings.
In her spare time which Ireally don't know how she has
(03:22):
any it can't be much.
You can usually find Christinadoing something with her three
horses or catching up on farmwork at home.
We join the conversation here,where Christina kicks off with
how her career in veterinarynursing started.
Nursing is a second career foryou, isn't it?
Kristina Naden (03:46):
yeah, so I started originally when I left
school.
I, probably, like a lot ofpeople, I had no idea what I
wanted to do.
She ended up studying travelcourse because my mum was like,
oh, you should be a travel agentbecause you like, and I and I
was like, yeah, that's a greatidea.
And I only did it because Iwanted to travel essentially,
and then realized that thatwasn't going to be a job for me.
(04:06):
So I ended up doing websitedevelopment stuff actually so
doing working in media for 10years or something like that.
So I set up some websites for afew businesses here and
overseas and was a technicalwriter actually as well, which
sounds so.
I used to write help manualsfor image editing software,
which sounds potentially quite,really dull, but we was quite
(04:29):
fun because we'd get like a betaversion of something similar to
photoshop and we would get toplay with it and figure out how
to do things with it and thenwrite about it.
So that's kind of probablywhere the first sort of my
teaching kind of stuff happened.
I reckon you know starting tothat those sort of help manuals
is really it's a form ofteaching.
So I did websites for, yeah, 10years or so and then just, I
(04:53):
don't know, I didn't feel like Iwas really being, didn't feel
very productive or something.
So I was sick of spending timein meetings and looking at a
computer.
And so, yeah, I decided toretrain.
And then was tossing up vet orvet nursing and chose vet
nursing.
So I did, I retrained gosh.
When was that?
Gosh?
It's almost coming up 20 yearsago.
Yeah, it was one of those nerdyadult students who used to
(05:15):
their hand up and sit in thefront of the class and stuff and
did the retraining, worked inpractice for a little bit, and
then I also trained as an equinedental technician.
So I did that for a little bitand it was great.
I had my own business doingthat and had good, good client
base.
And then my body just went.
No, it was too hard, so kind ofcouldn't feel my hands and we
used to get lots of pain down myarms from nerve pain and stuff
(05:38):
like that.
So, but then at the same timeI've been doing that, I'd
started doing some part-timeteaching, so that just became
full-time.
So that's sort of how Iprobably wasn't necessarily in
the plan of things, you know, toend up being an academic, but
it seems to suit me quite well.
Julie South (05:52):
You said that you well, what I heard was you ummed
between veterinary nursing andveterinarian.
So why did you choose thenursing path in?
So why did you choose thenursing path?
Kristina Naden (06:05):
I think because there were two things probably.
Firstly is I didn't think I'dactually cope with the stress of
being a vet.
Having been in clinics andtalked to people, I think at
that time I was like that feelsquite a stressful job and I
didn't.
I'm the sort of person I'llmake a decision and then maybe
think about, you know, it'llwake me up at three o'clock in
the morning and I thought I justI didn't.
I'm the sort of person I'llmake a decision and then maybe
(06:25):
think about, you know, it'llwake me up at three o'clock in
the morning and I thought I justI didn't know that I would be
good at that sort of stressfulside of things.
And the other part of it wasthat I like the not to say the
vets don't care, but the caringor the nursing sort of
one-on-one care that you get,that you get to follow a patient
through from the whole time.
(06:46):
Having said that, I was asurgical nurse at a referral
clinic and I loved surgery.
I just loved scrubbing in andbeing part of surgery and I love
anatomy and physiology.
So that kind of was my like.
Oh, now I get to see theinsides of an animal, which is,
you know, a lot of people don'tget to do and see that stuff and
I loved that part of it.
But I also I loved being thesurgical nurse as opposed to the
(07:08):
surgical vet and that kind ofdoing that.
I was like, yeah, that was thatwas I'd made the right decision
back then, you know, that waswhat I should have done.
So and it was neat, you know,seeing patients coming in and in
one sort of state and goinghome in a much better state.
So it's funny because peoplealways go, oh, but you know, you
see so many euthanasias and I'mthinking it's actually a really
(07:29):
, really small part of the job.
You know, we do like to havethe patients you know healthier
when they leave and, you know,coming back to see us again for
future things, which was reallyneat.
I love that sort ofrelationship you got to build up
with the clients seeing how theanimal, seeing them six months
down the track after a fairlymajor illness or surgery or
(07:49):
something like that, and seeingthe dog bouncing and happy and
coming in to visit you, that wasreally cool.
I love that part.
Julie South (07:56):
Pretty much every single nurse that I have spoken
with who has also hadveterinarian on the career list
has chosen nursing because ofthe ongoing patient care and
patient contact that nursinggives them over time.
(08:19):
Veterinarian.
Kristina Naden (08:21):
I think if I had gone down the path of being a
vet, I would have wanted toprobably go and specialise as a
surgical vet, if anything.
But then I was.
You know that's still that's apretty stressful, full-on job.
And you know, I've worked withsome pretty cool surgical
specialist vets and they make itlook easy and I know it's not
(08:42):
they make it look so easy.
And it's like when, when you,when I've been teaching students
and and oh, we, you know I'vedone fun sort of fun-ish classes
, you know like, oh, let's dosome suturing practice and
things, and and you, you showthem and they're like, okay,
this is how you do it.
And then they do it and they,they're all fingers and thumbs
and they're like, oh, and wheredo you put your hands?
And you sort of suddenlyrealize that it's it those, I
(09:03):
guess, being comfortable usinginstruments and those just the
muscle memory that you create.
So, yeah, you see some amazingvets, but you know it's years
that's gone behind.
What they're doing, that makingit look like you know they're
just tiny shoelaces, whenthey're actually doing some
pretty complex things, thousandsand thousands of hours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:23):
And that's just not even in thesurgery.
You know that they've beenprepping the night before,
reading up on procedures andtalking to colleagues and all
that kind of stuff, and you knowI just was like wow, I felt
quite lucky to get to see someof the procedures I was involved
in and participate in some ofthose.
It was pretty neat.
So I do miss that part of itnot being in practice actually,
(09:46):
but I do.
I've volunteered in clinics inTonga with South Pacific Animal
Welfare in the past and so I'vesort of been able to get my fix,
I suppose, of clinical practicethere.
And I'm off there soon, nextmonth, mainly to do a research
project.
But we're doing it inconjunction with one of the
clinics that South PacificAnimal Welfare run and so I'll
sort of hopefully get to maybeput my hand up and lend a hand
(10:07):
and things like that.
So, yeah, that's kind of neatto be able to do that stuff
still, you said at the beginningthat you, my words, enjoy
sharing.
Julie South (10:18):
What was it like first up being a tutor?
What sort of adaptations didyou have to make yourself?
Kristina Naden (10:27):
I still remember my first class and I was
petrified, to be honest, andit's funny.
I remember when I was at highschool being involved in speech
competitions and that actual,the standing up and talking in
front of people never thatactual thing, the public
speaking things never reallystressed me out too much.
I know for some people it's,you know, fate, worse than death
(10:48):
, but it's always kind of beenokay and my theory is, you know,
if you know what you're talkingabout, it's much easier it's
when you don't know your stuff.
And I think the very firstclass it was a really
straightforward class on, youknow, admitting patients for
surgery and I had this massiveimposter syndrome probably going
on, which at that time I didn'treally know what that was, I
(11:10):
guess, but thinking God, who amI to stand up here and tell
people how to do this stuff,even though it was something I'd
done.
How many times.
So it was, yeah, and I rememberthinking, gosh, that class was
probably actually quite boringfor people.
But I learned that students liketo hear stories, you know, they
like to hear our personalexperiences and that we're a
(11:31):
human and I think it's reallyimportant also that they hear
those and they hear about themistakes we've made and what
we've learned from those,because it makes it okay to make
mistakes for them.
So I think being able to mix inthat here's the information you
need to know, here's the theory,here's all the practical stuff
you need to know with the andthis is what I've done.
(11:52):
You know, this is my experiencewith this.
We had this dog come in and itwas.
You know, the anesthetic wasreally difficult and this is
what I learned from it.
And yes, sometimes anestheticsare really simple and
straightforward, but sometimesthey're a little bit scary and a
little bit rough, and this iswhat I've done in the past and
you know this is how it workedfor me.
So I think learning to, I guess, have personality in the way
(12:13):
you teach is really important,and I think it's I don't know
more interesting for students aswell, and they hopefully get
more out of it.
Julie South (12:29):
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Now let's get back to today'sshow.
What changes have you seen inthe curriculum while you've been
tutoring?
Kristina Naden (13:31):
I think there's been more of an introduction in
the interpersonal skills and Iremember being in a meeting once
with an advisory board andsomeone in the meeting said it
was a vet who owned a number ofclinics.
And they said, look was a vetwho owned a number of clinics.
And they said, look, I hire onpersonality, I hire on how that
person's going to fit with myteam and I can teach them stuff.
(13:52):
Everyone learns the same thing.
But I want a personality.
Who's going to come into myteam, which could be, you know,
if you've got a team of three orfour nurses and you're hiring
one and they don't fit, or it'snot a good team fit, it can make
a massive difference to the waythat that clinic functions.
And you know, if there'spersonality clashes and
sometimes that sort of stuff is,you know you can work on it and
(14:14):
that sort of thing.
But if it's a real clash thenit's difficult.
And I think that's sort of beenrecognised in the way that the
curriculum's changed.
We've tried to include moreinformation, I guess, on how to
work together as a team, how tocommunicate with a range of
different people, because you'llhave clients who have some
medical knowledge and somebackground with that and you'll
(14:36):
have clients who I remember astory, one client, the vet, said
to them oh look, we've takensome radiographs and your dog's
got a fractured tibia.
And they went oh, thank Godit's not broken, because their
knowledge, you know theterminology of a fracture is
that's different to being broken.
So, as a nurse, you know it'sbeing able to communicate with
(14:56):
people who have all sorts ofdifferent levels of knowledge
and also different backgrounds,you know, to healthcare for
animals and being able to workwith them to get the best
outcome for their patient.
I've also seen the introductionof things like reflective
practice, so learning from whatwe do.
When something happens inclinic and rather than doing the
(15:19):
blame thing, oh well, youshouldn't have done that, you
shouldn't have done that lookingat the situation, who was
involved, you know what wasgoing on with the patient, what
was you know, what equipment didyou have available, what
experiences did you haveavailable and how can you learn
from that and how can we changeour practices going forward.
If we need to change, we mightnot, you know, but that sort of
(15:39):
continual learning and a moreholistic approach to care for
animals as well, so that it'snot just about give them a drug
and do this.
But there's where you positionthe patient in the clinic and
what sort of bedding you use andwhether it's a patient that
likes to be on its own or itneeds other animals around it or
people around it or those sortof things.
So the more interpersonal stuffI think has taken a bigger role
(16:03):
than it has had in the pastmaybe.
Julie South (16:05):
What you just said just now about reflective work.
I think that is so importantand also I think that when
something goes wrong, it's veryeasy to look for everything that
went wrong in that wrongsituation.
But there would be a lot ofstuff that went right as well,
(16:35):
and I think it's reallyimportant to look for all the
good stuff and the stuff thatworked as well as what didn't
work, because you might findsomething that didn't work,
forget about or overlook whatdid work in that as well.
You take out the whole whatdidn't work and then you've
taken out the good stuff as wellat the same time.
Kristina Naden (16:53):
I think that's really important and sometimes
the stuff that didn't work it'sreally easy to fix, really
simple.
It might be in an emergencysituation that you can't find
the crash kit, like it might be,you know, in an emergency
situation that you know youcan't find the crash kit.
So it's like, oh well, insteadof having it there, let's have
it here.
You know, and I've had thatsituation where I was patient,
(17:16):
was staring at the light, youknow, on the table.
It was not a healthy patientand needed to get some drugs for
it, needed to get someadrenaline and that sort of
thing, and had to go intoanother room to get the crash
kit and I was just like, oh,that's, that's not how this
should work, you know, so let'sjust move it into that room.
So it's like that's really easyto do.
But yeah, instead of likedwelling on that as being the,
you know there were a lot ofthings in that situation that
(17:37):
went right, like the nurse itwas a student nurse who was
monitoring the anesthetic andshe did an amazing job.
She picked it up up reallyquickly and she just was like I
remember her saying to me oh, Ijust I don't feel right about
this patient and it doesn't seemright and a few things, and she
did an amazing job.
But, you know, having the kitthere maybe it would have made a
(17:58):
difference, maybe it wouldn'thave, you know, but that's
something that's really simplethat you could change.
So, just having that, goingback and reviewing a situation
like that, you can pick uplittle things like that.
Julie South (18:07):
Talking of changes, you've got pretty major.
Well, to me, on the outside itsounds a pretty major change
coming up in 2025 with a newcurriculum.
Is that correct?
Kristina Naden (18:19):
Yeah, so we've got the new New Zealand Diploma
in Veterinary Nursing is that'sbeing rolled out for the first
time in February 2025.
That's a new two-yearqualification.
So that's essentially.
At the moment, what we have istwo one-year qualifications.
So we have the New ZealandCertificate in Animal Technology
Veterinary Nursing Assistant,which is quite a mouthful, so we
(18:40):
just tend to call it NZCAT.
So that's a one-year level fivequal, and then that's followed
now by a one-year level sixqualification, the Diploma in
Vet Nursing.
So that's been in place forwhen was that?
I think the first rollout of theDiploma in Vet Nursing was 2017
.
So NZQA qualifications getreviewed every five years.
(19:00):
So this is part of that sort offive-year review process.
So what it's changed into nowis one two-year qualification.
So year one of that kicks off.
Then they'll transition overinto the second year of the
(19:30):
diploma in 2026.
All the years are just flyingby.
It's a bit crazy, but yeah, sothat's quite exciting.
So it's been a few years work toget to this point.
So, and it's been interesting,it's been developed with a
unified approach.
So there's been a community ofpractice that's been set up by
these nine providers forveterinary nursing who deliver
(19:51):
the diploma in veterinarynursing under Te Pukenga, which
is the sort of the mega mergerof all the polytechnics which is
obviously being restructured atthe moment.
But we've been.
So there's nine providers underTe Pukenga doing the diploma in
veterinary nursing and we'veall been working together as a
community of practice to developthis program, which is kind of
neat to work as a group togetherfrom all providers.
(20:12):
You know not sort of we're notcompeting against each other,
we're just trying to develop thebest possible qualification
that we can at this stage.
So that's been really cool todevelop those relationships with
other academic staff and learnfrom each other.
Actually there's been a lot oflearning.
I think you know different waysof teaching and learning, so
how we deliver material,different ways of assessment,
(20:32):
things like that, so you canalways learn from what people do
and some things may work andsome things may not, depending
on whether you're deliveringface-to-face or by distance or
blended learning.
There's different approachesfor all of that.
But that's been quite a neatprocess actually to get to know
everyone a bit better and learnfrom what we all do and how we
do it differently.
Julie South (20:52):
Was there much that was different.
Kristina Naden (20:55):
I mean, the key components are much the same.
We still teach husbandry and westill teach medical nursing and
surgical nursing and that sortof thing.
But the new qualification orthe new program is really aimed
to embed more of thoseinterpersonal skills, especially
in the first course and thelast course.
So we've got some reflectivepractice being introduced in the
(21:15):
first course just at a veryintro level.
So getting people to consider asituation and what was good
about it, what wasn't so good,can they improve on it?
And also looking a little bitabout using evidence-based
practice to inform what we do.
So that's all about the why.
So if we always position apatient a certain way after a
(21:36):
certain procedure, it's like,well, why do we do that?
Is the evidence to say thatthat's actually the best thing
to do, or is it just becausethat's the way we've always done
it?
And helping students figure outhow to find that evidence.
And it's a bit tricky becausethere's a lot of, you know,
really good journals out there,but some of them are not always
that easy to approach.
And, you know, sometimes yousee journal papers that have got
more numbers than words in themand those are not always the
(21:59):
fun ones to look at, but there'sa lot of really good veterinary
nursing journals out there, sotrying to encourage people to
use those to inform theirpractice.
And then those skills areembedded throughout the two-year
program.
So partly through the way we'reteaching and learning and we're
doing our teaching and learning, and then also in some of the
assessments, students will needto use those skills as well.
(22:21):
And then in the very lastcourse at the end of the second
year, we revisit those a littlebit more as well and go okay,
you're about to go out and be anemployed veterinary nurse and
this is how you can embed yourevidence-based practice and use
your reflective practice skillsmore as you go out and graduate.
So that's probably the biggestchange for the theory courses.
(22:44):
The other change is that thepractical courses are now
standalone.
So the current situation is wehave how the sort of structure
works is we have a qualificationsitting at the top and then
underneath that we have programs.
And the current situation isthat we've got nine providers
under Te Pūkenga and they alldeliver a slightly different
(23:04):
program and some of those willhave their practicum hours
embedded in some of the theorycourses and some have those
practicums separate.
So this new program has themall separate.
So we've got four practicumcourses, so two in the first
year that are 15 credits eachand then two in the second year
that are 30 credits each.
So those practicums includehours at a clinical placement,
(23:27):
some time in doing simulations,so that might be at a block
course or might be doingpractical stuff in a class where
you're learning to restrain apatient or restrain a model,
sort of a soft toy or somethinglike that.
And those all count towardsthose practical skills, Because
the feedback we got fromindustry was that they wanted
graduates with more practicalskills.
So the number of practicum hourshas increased to 750 over the
(23:51):
two years.
But that's not all in clinic.
So 480 is a minimum number inclinic, which is exactly the
same as it is now in the currentqualification.
But we've added in a minimum of45 hours in an animal-related
facility, so that could be likea kennels or a cattery or a
doggy daycare or somewhere likethat, and then also those hours
(24:12):
in the simulation time.
Or some providers have aveterinary simulation clinic, so
those hours could go towardsthat as well.
So we've tried to sort ofincrease the practical
experience for students throughthe two years.
Julie South (24:29):
I hope you've found that interesting.
I certainly did Remember tocome back next week because
Christina clarifies how the 750practicum hours are incorporated
into the new diplomaqualification.
She also answers my questionabout how this new qualification
(24:49):
stacks up against the RoyalCollege's veterinary nursing
qualification and how the NewZealand diploma leads into the
bachelor's qualification andmore.
So make sure you select andclick that follow option
wherever you're listening tothis episode so it automatically
lands in your podcast feed nextweek and you don't miss out.
(25:14):
Thank you for sharing the lasthalf an hour or so of your life
with Christina and me this week.
We both look forward to youjoining us again next week.
This is Julie South signing offand inviting you to go out
there and be the mostfantabulous version of you.
You can be Until next week.
(25:36):
Ka kite anō.
Welcome to Veterinary Voices episode 205.
I'm your ,J ulie South.
With listeners in 1,400 citiesaround the world, veterinary
Voices celebrates all that'sgreat about working in New
Zealand's veterinary industry.
You can find back copies atveterinaryvoicesnz.
(00:25):
Veterinary Voices is brought toyou by VetStaff, new Zealand's
only recruitment agencyspecialising in helping
veterinary professionals findjobs they're excited about going
to on Monday mornings in Kiwivet clinics, vet clinics
(00:50):
vetstaffconz.
Today I have the pleasure ofsharing the chat I had with
Senior Lecturer in VeterinaryNursing at the School of Animal
Health at Otago Polytechnic,Kristina Naden.
Have you heard that starting inFebruary 2025, so next year
there's a new veterinary nursingqualification rolling out in
New Zealand?
It's the Diploma in VeterinaryNursing, which is what Christina
(01:12):
and I are talking about in thistwo-part chat.
In case you're wondering ifthis episode is just for
veterinary nurses, what we talkabout is also important for
practice managers andveterinarians in clinic as well,
so stay tuned.
Kristina Naden has beenlecturing in veterinary nursing
since 2009.
(01:33):
She holds a bachelor's degreein veterinary nursing from
Auckland's Unitec.
She's currently doing hermaster's when we recorded this
episode in mid-September.
When we recorded this episodein mid-September, Kristina was
hoping to have heard that herMasters had been upgraded to a
PhD Whoa.
Veterinary nursing is a secondcareer for
Kristina Naden (01:54):
Christina
Julie South (01:55):
, after her first career choice in website
development and HTML coding.
As a veterinary nurse,christina originally started
working in mixed practice andthen moved into surgical nursing
in a referral clinic.
As you'll hear, she loveslearning.
Christina studied some more andis also trained as an equine
(02:18):
dental technician.
She's run her own successfulbusiness in equine dentistry
until her body couldn't handlethe physical demands placed on
it.
It was while working withhorses that Christina started
teaching, eventuallytransitioning to that full-time.
As well as being a studentherself.
She loves teaching and seeingher students progress and
(02:41):
connect the dots Along the way.
Christina Kristina discoveredher passion for research.
As well as her PhD research,she also has a couple of other
research projects underway.
She's currently researching andstudying the health and disease
status of dogs in Tonga.
And, for something completelydifferent, she's involved in the
(03:02):
engagement of allied veterinaryprofessionals with continuing
professional development.
Christina describes herself ashaving a curious mind and a love
for writing, qualities thatserve her well in her research
commitments and undertakings.
In her spare time which Ireally don't know how she has
(03:22):
any it can't be much.
You can usually find Christinadoing something with her three
horses or catching up on farmwork at home.
We join the conversation here,where Christina kicks off with
how her career in veterinarynursing started.
Nursing is a second career foryou, isn't it?
Kristina Naden (03:46):
yeah, so I started originally when I left
school.
I, probably, like a lot ofpeople, I had no idea what I
wanted to do.
She ended up studying travelcourse because my mum was like,
oh, you should be a travel agentbecause you like, and I and I
was like, yeah, that's a greatidea.
And I only did it because Iwanted to travel essentially,
and then realized that thatwasn't going to be a job for me.
(04:06):
So I ended up doing websitedevelopment stuff actually so
doing working in media for 10years or something like that.
So I set up some websites for afew businesses here and
overseas and was a technicalwriter actually as well, which
sounds so.
I used to write help manualsfor image editing software,
which sounds potentially quite,really dull, but we was quite
(04:29):
fun because we'd get like a betaversion of something similar to
photoshop and we would get toplay with it and figure out how
to do things with it and thenwrite about it.
So that's kind of probablywhere the first sort of my
teaching kind of stuff happened.
I reckon you know starting tothat those sort of help manuals
is really it's a form ofteaching.
So I did websites for, yeah, 10years or so and then just, I
(04:53):
don't know, I didn't feel like Iwas really being, didn't feel
very productive or something.
So I was sick of spending timein meetings and looking at a
computer.
And so, yeah, I decided toretrain.
And then was tossing up vet orvet nursing and chose vet
nursing.
So I did, I retrained gosh.
When was that?
Gosh?
It's almost coming up 20 yearsago.
Yeah, it was one of those nerdyadult students who used to
(05:15):
their hand up and sit in thefront of the class and stuff and
did the retraining, worked inpractice for a little bit, and
then I also trained as an equinedental technician.
So I did that for a little bitand it was great.
I had my own business doingthat and had good, good client
base.
And then my body just went.
No, it was too hard, so kind ofcouldn't feel my hands and we
used to get lots of pain down myarms from nerve pain and stuff
(05:38):
like that.
So, but then at the same timeI've been doing that, I'd
started doing some part-timeteaching, so that just became
full-time.
So that's sort of how Iprobably wasn't necessarily in
the plan of things, you know, toend up being an academic, but
it seems to suit me quite well.
Julie South (05:52):
You said that you well, what I heard was you ummed
between veterinary nursing andveterinarian.
So why did you choose thenursing path in?
So why did you choose thenursing path?
Kristina Naden (06:05):
I think because there were two things probably.
Firstly is I didn't think I'dactually cope with the stress of
being a vet.
Having been in clinics andtalked to people, I think at
that time I was like that feelsquite a stressful job and I
didn't.
I'm the sort of person I'llmake a decision and then maybe
think about, you know, it'llwake me up at three o'clock in
the morning and I thought I justI didn't.
I'm the sort of person I'llmake a decision and then maybe
(06:25):
think about, you know, it'llwake me up at three o'clock in
the morning and I thought I justI didn't know that I would be
good at that sort of stressfulside of things.
And the other part of it wasthat I like the not to say the
vets don't care, but the caringor the nursing sort of
one-on-one care that you get,that you get to follow a patient
through from the whole time.
(06:46):
Having said that, I was asurgical nurse at a referral
clinic and I loved surgery.
I just loved scrubbing in andbeing part of surgery and I love
anatomy and physiology.
So that kind of was my like.
Oh, now I get to see theinsides of an animal, which is,
you know, a lot of people don'tget to do and see that stuff and
I loved that part of it.
But I also I loved being thesurgical nurse as opposed to the
(07:08):
surgical vet and that kind ofdoing that.
I was like, yeah, that was thatwas I'd made the right decision
back then, you know, that waswhat I should have done.
So and it was neat, you know,seeing patients coming in and in
one sort of state and goinghome in a much better state.
So it's funny because peoplealways go, oh, but you know, you
see so many euthanasias and I'mthinking it's actually a really
(07:29):
, really small part of the job.
You know, we do like to havethe patients you know healthier
when they leave and, you know,coming back to see us again for
future things, which was reallyneat.
I love that sort ofrelationship you got to build up
with the clients seeing how theanimal, seeing them six months
down the track after a fairlymajor illness or surgery or
(07:49):
something like that, and seeingthe dog bouncing and happy and
coming in to visit you, that wasreally cool.
I love that part.
Julie South (07:56):
Pretty much every single nurse that I have spoken
with who has also hadveterinarian on the career list
has chosen nursing because ofthe ongoing patient care and
patient contact that nursinggives them over time.
(08:19):
Veterinarian.
Kristina Naden (08:21):
I think if I had gone down the path of being a
vet, I would have wanted toprobably go and specialise as a
surgical vet, if anything.
But then I was.
You know that's still that's apretty stressful, full-on job.
And you know, I've worked withsome pretty cool surgical
specialist vets and they make itlook easy and I know it's not
(08:42):
they make it look so easy.
And it's like when, when you,when I've been teaching students
and and oh, we, you know I'vedone fun sort of fun-ish classes
, you know like, oh, let's dosome suturing practice and
things, and and you, you showthem and they're like, okay,
this is how you do it.
And then they do it and they,they're all fingers and thumbs
and they're like, oh, and wheredo you put your hands?
And you sort of suddenlyrealize that it's it those, I
(09:03):
guess, being comfortable usinginstruments and those just the
muscle memory that you create.
So, yeah, you see some amazingvets, but you know it's years
that's gone behind.
What they're doing, that makingit look like you know they're
just tiny shoelaces, whenthey're actually doing some
pretty complex things, thousandsand thousands of hours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(09:23):
And that's just not even in thesurgery.
You know that they've beenprepping the night before,
reading up on procedures andtalking to colleagues and all
that kind of stuff, and you knowI just was like wow, I felt
quite lucky to get to see someof the procedures I was involved
in and participate in some ofthose.
It was pretty neat.
So I do miss that part of itnot being in practice actually,
(09:46):
but I do.
I've volunteered in clinics inTonga with South Pacific Animal
Welfare in the past and so I'vesort of been able to get my fix,
I suppose, of clinical practicethere.
And I'm off there soon, nextmonth, mainly to do a research
project.
But we're doing it inconjunction with one of the
clinics that South PacificAnimal Welfare run and so I'll
sort of hopefully get to maybeput my hand up and lend a hand
(10:07):
and things like that.
So, yeah, that's kind of neatto be able to do that stuff
still, you said at the beginningthat you, my words, enjoy
sharing.
Julie South (10:18):
What was it like first up being a tutor?
What sort of adaptations didyou have to make yourself?
Kristina Naden (10:27):
I still remember my first class and I was
petrified, to be honest, andit's funny.
I remember when I was at highschool being involved in speech
competitions and that actual,the standing up and talking in
front of people never thatactual thing, the public
speaking things never reallystressed me out too much.
I know for some people it's,you know, fate, worse than death
(10:48):
, but it's always kind of beenokay and my theory is, you know,
if you know what you're talkingabout, it's much easier it's
when you don't know your stuff.
And I think the very firstclass it was a really
straightforward class on, youknow, admitting patients for
surgery and I had this massiveimposter syndrome probably going
on, which at that time I didn'treally know what that was, I
(11:10):
guess, but thinking God, who amI to stand up here and tell
people how to do this stuff,even though it was something I'd
done.
How many times.
So it was, yeah, and I rememberthinking, gosh, that class was
probably actually quite boringfor people.
But I learned that students liketo hear stories, you know, they
like to hear our personalexperiences and that we're a
(11:31):
human and I think it's reallyimportant also that they hear
those and they hear about themistakes we've made and what
we've learned from those,because it makes it okay to make
mistakes for them.
So I think being able to mix inthat here's the information you
need to know, here's the theory,here's all the practical stuff
you need to know with the andthis is what I've done.
(11:52):
You know, this is my experiencewith this.
We had this dog come in and itwas.
You know, the anesthetic wasreally difficult and this is
what I learned from it.
And yes, sometimes anestheticsare really simple and
straightforward, but sometimesthey're a little bit scary and a
little bit rough, and this iswhat I've done in the past and
you know this is how it workedfor me.
So I think learning to, I guess, have personality in the way
(12:13):
you teach is really important,and I think it's I don't know
more interesting for students aswell, and they hopefully get
more out of it.
Julie South (12:29):
I just want to interrupt this chat for a very
brief moment to share somethingimportant for clinics that are
doing their own recruitment.
Wherever you are in the world,check out vet clinic jobscom.
You probably already know andagree that traditional
recruitment methods just aren'tcutting it anymore, which means
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It also means that you need todifferentiate and showcase what
(12:52):
makes your clinic a great placeto work.
Vetclinicjobscom is all aboutboosting your clinic's employer
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client brand.
And more Vet Clinic Jobs isaffordable, so give your
recruitment marketing the oomphit needs through
(13:15):
vetclinicjobscom.
Now let's get back to today'sshow.
What changes have you seen inthe curriculum while you've been
tutoring?
Kristina Naden (13:31):
I think there's been more of an introduction in
the interpersonal skills and Iremember being in a meeting once
with an advisory board andsomeone in the meeting said it
was a vet who owned a number ofclinics.
And they said, look was a vetwho owned a number of clinics.
And they said, look, I hire onpersonality, I hire on how that
person's going to fit with myteam and I can teach them stuff.
(13:52):
Everyone learns the same thing.
But I want a personality.
Who's going to come into myteam, which could be, you know,
if you've got a team of three orfour nurses and you're hiring
one and they don't fit, or it'snot a good team fit, it can make
a massive difference to the waythat that clinic functions.
And you know, if there'spersonality clashes and
sometimes that sort of stuff is,you know you can work on it and
(14:14):
that sort of thing.
But if it's a real clash thenit's difficult.
And I think that's sort of beenrecognised in the way that the
curriculum's changed.
We've tried to include moreinformation, I guess, on how to
work together as a team, how tocommunicate with a range of
different people, because you'llhave clients who have some
medical knowledge and somebackground with that and you'll
(14:36):
have clients who I remember astory, one client, the vet, said
to them oh look, we've takensome radiographs and your dog's
got a fractured tibia.
And they went oh, thank Godit's not broken, because their
knowledge, you know theterminology of a fracture is
that's different to being broken.
So, as a nurse, you know it'sbeing able to communicate with
(14:56):
people who have all sorts ofdifferent levels of knowledge
and also different backgrounds,you know, to healthcare for
animals and being able to workwith them to get the best
outcome for their patient.
I've also seen the introductionof things like reflective
practice, so learning from whatwe do.
When something happens inclinic and rather than doing the
(15:19):
blame thing, oh well, youshouldn't have done that, you
shouldn't have done that lookingat the situation, who was
involved, you know what wasgoing on with the patient, what
was you know, what equipment didyou have available, what
experiences did you haveavailable and how can you learn
from that and how can we changeour practices going forward.
If we need to change, we mightnot, you know, but that sort of
(15:39):
continual learning and a moreholistic approach to care for
animals as well, so that it'snot just about give them a drug
and do this.
But there's where you positionthe patient in the clinic and
what sort of bedding you use andwhether it's a patient that
likes to be on its own or itneeds other animals around it or
people around it or those sortof things.
So the more interpersonal stuffI think has taken a bigger role
(16:03):
than it has had in the pastmaybe.
Julie South (16:05):
What you just said just now about reflective work.
I think that is so importantand also I think that when
something goes wrong, it's veryeasy to look for everything that
went wrong in that wrongsituation.
But there would be a lot ofstuff that went right as well,
(16:35):
and I think it's reallyimportant to look for all the
good stuff and the stuff thatworked as well as what didn't
work, because you might findsomething that didn't work,
forget about or overlook whatdid work in that as well.
You take out the whole whatdidn't work and then you've
taken out the good stuff as wellat the same time.
Kristina Naden (16:53):
I think that's really important and sometimes
the stuff that didn't work it'sreally easy to fix, really
simple.
It might be in an emergencysituation that you can't find
the crash kit, like it might be,you know, in an emergency
situation that you know youcan't find the crash kit.
So it's like, oh well, insteadof having it there, let's have
it here.
You know, and I've had thatsituation where I was patient,
(17:16):
was staring at the light, youknow, on the table.
It was not a healthy patientand needed to get some drugs for
it, needed to get someadrenaline and that sort of
thing, and had to go intoanother room to get the crash
kit and I was just like, oh,that's, that's not how this
should work, you know, so let'sjust move it into that room.
So it's like that's really easyto do.
But yeah, instead of likedwelling on that as being the,
you know there were a lot ofthings in that situation that
(17:37):
went right, like the nurse itwas a student nurse who was
monitoring the anesthetic andshe did an amazing job.
She picked it up up reallyquickly and she just was like I
remember her saying to me oh, Ijust I don't feel right about
this patient and it doesn't seemright and a few things, and she
did an amazing job.
But, you know, having the kitthere maybe it would have made a
(17:58):
difference, maybe it wouldn'thave, you know, but that's
something that's really simplethat you could change.
So, just having that, goingback and reviewing a situation
like that, you can pick uplittle things like that.
Julie South (18:07):
Talking of changes, you've got pretty major.
Well, to me, on the outside itsounds a pretty major change
coming up in 2025 with a newcurriculum.
Is that correct?
Kristina Naden (18:19):
Yeah, so we've got the new New Zealand Diploma
in Veterinary Nursing is that'sbeing rolled out for the first
time in February 2025.
That's a new two-yearqualification.
So that's essentially.
At the moment, what we have istwo one-year qualifications.
So we have the New ZealandCertificate in Animal Technology
Veterinary Nursing Assistant,which is quite a mouthful, so we
(18:40):
just tend to call it NZCAT.
So that's a one-year level fivequal, and then that's followed
now by a one-year level sixqualification, the Diploma in
Vet Nursing.
So that's been in place forwhen was that?
I think the first rollout of theDiploma in Vet Nursing was 2017
.
So NZQA qualifications getreviewed every five years.
(19:00):
So this is part of that sort offive-year review process.
So what it's changed into nowis one two-year qualification.
So year one of that kicks off.
Then they'll transition overinto the second year of the
(19:30):
diploma in 2026.
All the years are just flyingby.
It's a bit crazy, but yeah, sothat's quite exciting.
So it's been a few years work toget to this point.
So, and it's been interesting,it's been developed with a
unified approach.
So there's been a community ofpractice that's been set up by
these nine providers forveterinary nursing who deliver
(19:51):
the diploma in veterinarynursing under Te Pukenga, which
is the sort of the mega mergerof all the polytechnics which is
obviously being restructured atthe moment.
But we've been.
So there's nine providers underTe Pukenga doing the diploma in
veterinary nursing and we'veall been working together as a
community of practice to developthis program, which is kind of
neat to work as a group togetherfrom all providers.
(20:12):
You know not sort of we're notcompeting against each other,
we're just trying to develop thebest possible qualification
that we can at this stage.
So that's been really cool todevelop those relationships with
other academic staff and learnfrom each other.
Actually there's been a lot oflearning.
I think you know different waysof teaching and learning, so
how we deliver material,different ways of assessment,
(20:32):
things like that, so you canalways learn from what people do
and some things may work andsome things may not, depending
on whether you're deliveringface-to-face or by distance or
blended learning.
There's different approachesfor all of that.
But that's been quite a neatprocess actually to get to know
everyone a bit better and learnfrom what we all do and how we
do it differently.
Julie South (20:52):
Was there much that was different.
Kristina Naden (20:55):
I mean, the key components are much the same.
We still teach husbandry and westill teach medical nursing and
surgical nursing and that sortof thing.
But the new qualification orthe new program is really aimed
to embed more of thoseinterpersonal skills, especially
in the first course and thelast course.
So we've got some reflectivepractice being introduced in the
(21:15):
first course just at a veryintro level.
So getting people to consider asituation and what was good
about it, what wasn't so good,can they improve on it?
And also looking a little bitabout using evidence-based
practice to inform what we do.
So that's all about the why.
So if we always position apatient a certain way after a
(21:36):
certain procedure, it's like,well, why do we do that?
Is the evidence to say thatthat's actually the best thing
to do, or is it just becausethat's the way we've always done
it?
And helping students figure outhow to find that evidence.
And it's a bit tricky becausethere's a lot of, you know,
really good journals out there,but some of them are not always
that easy to approach.
And, you know, sometimes yousee journal papers that have got
more numbers than words in themand those are not always the
(21:59):
fun ones to look at, but there'sa lot of really good veterinary
nursing journals out there, sotrying to encourage people to
use those to inform theirpractice.
And then those skills areembedded throughout the two-year
program.
So partly through the way we'reteaching and learning and we're
doing our teaching and learning, and then also in some of the
assessments, students will needto use those skills as well.
(22:21):
And then in the very lastcourse at the end of the second
year, we revisit those a littlebit more as well and go okay,
you're about to go out and be anemployed veterinary nurse and
this is how you can embed yourevidence-based practice and use
your reflective practice skillsmore as you go out and graduate.
So that's probably the biggestchange for the theory courses.
(22:44):
The other change is that thepractical courses are now
standalone.
So the current situation is wehave how the sort of structure
works is we have a qualificationsitting at the top and then
underneath that we have programs.
And the current situation isthat we've got nine providers
under Te Pūkenga and they alldeliver a slightly different
(23:04):
program and some of those willhave their practicum hours
embedded in some of the theorycourses and some have those
practicums separate.
So this new program has themall separate.
So we've got four practicumcourses, so two in the first
year that are 15 credits eachand then two in the second year
that are 30 credits each.
So those practicums includehours at a clinical placement,
(23:27):
some time in doing simulations,so that might be at a block
course or might be doingpractical stuff in a class where
you're learning to restrain apatient or restrain a model,
sort of a soft toy or somethinglike that.
And those all count towardsthose practical skills, Because
the feedback we got fromindustry was that they wanted
graduates with more practicalskills.
So the number of practicum hourshas increased to 750 over the
(23:51):
two years.
But that's not all in clinic.
So 480 is a minimum number inclinic, which is exactly the
same as it is now in the currentqualification.
But we've added in a minimum of45 hours in an animal-related
facility, so that could be likea kennels or a cattery or a
doggy daycare or somewhere likethat, and then also those hours
(24:12):
in the simulation time.
Or some providers have aveterinary simulation clinic, so
those hours could go towardsthat as well.
So we've tried to sort ofincrease the practical
experience for students throughthe two years.
Julie South (24:29):
I hope you've found that interesting.
I certainly did Remember tocome back next week because
Christina clarifies how the 750practicum hours are incorporated
into the new diplomaqualification.
She also answers my questionabout how this new qualification
(24:49):
stacks up against the RoyalCollege's veterinary nursing
qualification and how the NewZealand diploma leads into the
bachelor's qualification andmore.
So make sure you select andclick that follow option
wherever you're listening tothis episode so it automatically
lands in your podcast feed nextweek and you don't miss out.
(25:14):
Thank you for sharing the lasthalf an hour or so of your life
with Christina and me this week.
We both look forward to youjoining us again next week.
This is Julie South signing offand inviting you to go out
there and be the mostfantabulous version of you.
You can be Until next week.
(25:36):
Ka kite anō.
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