In this episode, former Secretary of the Army, the Honorable Louis Caldera and former Secretary of the Navy, the Honorable Sean O'Keefe join Joe Plenzler (USMC), Ellen Gustafson, and Jeremy Butler (USN) for a discussion on how increasing public understanding of civics helps strengthen our democracy and mitigate political polarization.
For more, check us out at www.wetheveterans.us and at https://linktr.ee/vettedconversations
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
And and we now know that uh disinformation, uh, that
social media uh tends toaccentuate voices that are
negative and divisive.
And uh the you know, Russia andand China noticed, they
understood that.
And so they spent a lot of moneytrying to foment division within
our country, trying to turnAmericans against each other,
(00:22):
because they see that as harmingour country, advancing uh their
interests uh in the world.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to Vet Our Democracy, a podcast
series produced by We theVeterans and Military Families.
We are a nonprofit, nonpartisangroup of veterans and military
family members who are verypro-democracy.
I'm board member and retiredMarine Corps veteran Joe
Plensler, and my co-host todayare Elvin Gustafson, Executive
Director of We the Veterans andMilitary Families, and Jeremy
(00:53):
Butler, a U.S.
Navy Reserve Officer and ourChief Growth Officer.
And we're joined today by twovery special guests, Secretary
Lewis Caldera and Secretary SeanO'Keefe.
Secretary O'Keefe began hispublic service career in the
Department of Defense in 1978 asa presidential management
intern.
In his long and distinguishedcareer, he served most notably
under Republican administrationsas the Secretary of the Navy,
(01:16):
Deputy Director of the Office ofManagement and Budget, and one
of my favorites, theadministrator of NASA.
When he left government, heserved as Chancellor of the
Louisiana State University, andhe's presently a university
professor in the Howard andLouise Phillenstahl endowed
chair in leadership at SyracuseUniversity's Maxwell School of
Citizenship and Public Affairs.
(01:37):
Secretary Lewis Calderagraduated from the United States
Military Academy at West Pointin 1978 and served in the Army
on active duty from 78 to 83.
He obtained a jurisdoctorate andMBA from Harvard.
He practiced law and was electedto serve as a California State
Assemblyman.
He served in Democraticadministrations as a Secretary
of the Army and the assistant tothe President and Director of
(01:59):
the White House Military Office.
Secretary Caldera is now asenior lecturer at Harvard
Business School and serves onnumerous nonprofit and public
company boards and has on anumber of educational and
foreign policy and nationalsecurity commission task forces
and study groups.
Both Secretary O'Keefe andCaldera have collaborated on
pro-democracy and civics issuesin the past, and I'm really
(02:19):
looking forward to today'sdiscussion on the role of public
understanding to civics and howthat plays into our national
security and our domestictranquility, and what veterans
can do to help reinforce thefoundations of our
constitutional democraticrepublic.
So to all, welcome.
So to start the discussiontoday, uh why is it important
for American citizens tounderstand civics?
SPEAKER_04 (02:42):
Well, first and foremost, I think it's uh
because it's uh such aperishable condition.
This is not something thatsustains itself on its own.
It requires the engagement ofthe citizens to actually express
the will of the people.
And to do so in a manner that isnot only fulsome but in full
weight of all the factors to beconsidered.
(03:04):
Um it's one that's you knowconsidered something that is
just on autopilot.
That's when it begins to erode.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
So uh uh first of all, thanks for for having us uh
today uh on this importanttopic.
And uh, you know, I totallyagree with uh what uh Sean
Secretary Keefe just said.
You know, we're we're reallyblessed to live in this great,
great nation that it was notfordained at our founding that
we would be today the greatestnation in the world.
But that happened because one,we had a structure for our
(03:36):
government, which was thisexperiment in representative
democracy and freedoms, andfreedom that allowed people to
have private enterprise and propproperty and create the
affluence that we have today.
But we along with the with therights uh that we know are in
our constitution, there are theresponsibilities of citizenship.
(03:57):
And those include all the menand women who have fought for
our freedoms from that uh war ofindependence through every
single war that there have beenAmericans who've been willing to
stand up and fight for ourcountry.
And the and and and theobligations of citizenship also
uh you know, civics is aparticipatory sport.
(04:18):
That means you have to vote,that means you have to be
engaged, that means you have tobe educated about the you know
what the issues are uh so thatyou can make informed decisions
uh you know at the ballot box.
You know, so if you take, forexample, what's happening today
uh in the Middle East in the waruh that uh Hamas' attack on
Israel, uh all of a sudden, youknow, a lot of us are looking,
(04:38):
saying, I need to relearn whatuh this history is, what the
challenges are, what theimplications of this is.
Uh and when policymakers uhsuggest different courses of
action, you know, we we will bebetter informed to judge how
well they are actually uhrepresenting us and our country
uh in in responding uh to thatbecause we now play a leadership
(05:02):
role in the world.
You know, our country does.
And so therefore, we have to beinformed and engaged citizens.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
Thank you so much for your thoughts.
Ellen, Jeremy.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, you know, I think I love what Secretary
Caldera said about um the twosides of understanding our civic
responsibility, the rights andresponsibilities or obligations
of citizenship.
I think we are so buried inconversations, especially you
know, loud screaming about whoserights uh are are won and whose
rights you know tr could trampleothers, we are forgetting the
(05:35):
other equally important side ofcitizenship, which is our
responsibilities andobligations.
The other thing that that's soimportant for us to understand,
and we we say this often, youknow, as a as a military spouse
myself and in the company of allwonderful veterans that that um
I work with, people assume thatas a military family or a
veteran, you know about civics.
(05:56):
You know about the way thegovernment works and the
different branches and what theConstitution actually says and
what every law says.
But but we we don't have anygreater level of education
ourselves uh unless we've sawedit or a very narrow group who
who's maybe gone to a serviceacademy.
You know, a a a person in ingeneral connected to the
military doesn't get a baselineeducation on civics.
(06:17):
It's not part of the training.
And it's incredibly important.
Um but you know, it it's also umit's almost like you know giving
us some false uh credentials inbeing able to speak publicly
about some of these issues.
The other thing I think that'sso fascinating about our time is
that there is a degradation ofsome of the most basic jobs
(06:38):
needed to keep our countrygoing.
And I think that really comesfrom lack of education.
You know, there's an immediateknee-jerk reaction against
things like the wordbureaucracy.
Well, that's what keeps ourgovernment going.
People that are doing theseimportant but quiet and and and
maybe seemingly boring jobs uhyear in and year out are keeping
uh are keeping our governmentgoing and are keeping our
(06:58):
country um as as wonderful as itis.
And I think you know that's partof what education might help us
turn the tide on.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
I'd also add that um, you know, our form of
government was designed to beiterative.
You know, it wasn't, you know,the Constitution, the Bill of
Rights, all of these things weremeant to evolve, uh, and you
know you can interpret that wordhow you want to, as time
progresses.
You know, we often talk aboutthe Bill of Rights and things
like that.
You know, these are amendments.
Like the Constitution wasdesigned to be amended, um, and
(07:30):
even at a much lower level, ifyou don't understand some of the
basics of civics, it's hard tohave a better understanding of
where things need to change, howthings need to change, the
difference between uh rightsthat are imbued in the
Constitution and those that arepassed down to the state level.
So when when average citizensare having these conversations
and talking to their electedofficials or those that want to
(07:52):
become elected, it's veryhelpful to have an understanding
of what the government wasdesigned to do and not do and
who should be having theserights and and regulations uh so
that we just have a moreinformed conversation.
Too often, you know, the loudestvoices are assumed to be the
correct ones.
When I think we all know you toooften hear people talking heads
on the news, you know, spoutingwhat they claim to be facts,
(08:13):
which uh are really notaccurate.
SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
Yeah.
I mean, it which brings up areally important thought, like,
you know, of limited government,right, where we have majority
rule but also protecting therights of the non-majority
within our country as well.
So um you know, what we hear alot about like democracy around
the world being under attack,and we're fortunate today to be
(08:36):
joined by two former servicesecretaries who I know keep a uh
keep their pulse on what's goingon around the world.
Um we also know there's beendocumented attempts by hostile
foreign governments to crack theAmerican people's trust in
democracy.
So I'd like to ask you,gentlemen, from each of your
perspectives, like what's thegreatest threat out there?
And um what are these folkstrying to get us to believe as
(08:57):
citizens?
SPEAKER_04 (09:00):
Well, it's I think it's it's first and foremost to
attempt to erode our confidencein being uh part of this
extraordinary experiment that'sbeen underway for two centuries
and still sustaining itselfbased on a set of inviolate
(09:20):
principles that uh if you canerode the confidence in those
principles, qu have peoplequestion the rule of law,
question the fundamental rightsand responsibilities, as uh has
been mentioned earlier, ofcitizenship, then there's a
vulnerability that opens.
(09:42):
And so to the extent that you'retrying to exploit uh a weakness
in what democracy calls for,there are so many, there's a
multitude of ways to accomplishthat task by simply questioning
the underpinnings of what it isthat you know is is motivated by
(10:04):
that form of governance.
And it is an unusual case, butit nonetheless is one that uh is
uh information warfare issometimes more deadly than many
other forms of warfare that weare well prepared to try to
respond to.
This one we're still wrestlingwith it.
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
Yeah, I'm glad, you know, uh Sean, I'm glad you
mentioned uh informationwarfare.
You know, since since World WarII, really when when the forces
of freedom uh defeated uh theNazis and the forces of uh
oppression, uh, the U.S.
has had played an increasinglysignificant leadership role in
the world as the country thatcarried the banner for
(10:49):
democracy, for protection ofhuman rights, uh for free trade,
and uh all the things that havecreated the society that we have
today.
And we clearly have uhadversaries in the world, uh
particularly countries that areautocratic, uh, that uh run in a
different form of government,uh, which don't even meet what
(11:12):
they say their goals of theirgovernment are.
What they really are is they'recountries where a small elite is
entrenched and where they use uhpolice powers and military power
to keep themselves uh uh inpower and to oppress even their
own people.
And then to try to to and andwe're we're in a in a global
contest uh with those uh forcesin those countries.
(11:35):
And then there's all otherforces uh like in you know the
uh Islamist jihadists and otherterrorists and and other and
other uh uh hotspots in in theworld.
And so as as we've contestedthese uh uh forces, uh we we
they use the tools that areavailable to them.
And our world has become youknow very complex, uh that in
(11:58):
part through globalization andpart through technological
advancements, and part of thattechnology is information
technology, as uh as uhSecretary O'Keefe was saying.
And and we now know that uhdisinformation, uh, that social
media uh tends to accentuatevoices that are negative and
divisive.
And uh the you know, Russia andand China noticed, they
(12:21):
understood that.
And so they spent a lot of moneytrying to foment division within
our country, trying to turnAmericans against each other,
because they see that as harmingour country, advancing uh their
interests uh in the world.
Uh and so you know it's it'ssomething that uh that is in
many ways growing.
You know, artificialintelligence means that there's
(12:44):
even new levels of uh of uhmisinformation that are possible
and deep fakes and things likethat.
You know, so and that that'sgonna also uh put a challenge on
us to be uh smart and educatedabout understanding what kind of
information is trustworthy, whatkind of information should I
really have suspicions about,and not just be in a in a deep
(13:08):
well of only hearing the voicesthat you agree with, but of
understanding what are trustedvoices and um and and maybe
sometimes even having a uh youknow a little bit of uh of
believing that that is sooutlandish.
It can't possibly be true.
Uh and so when there are people,and I don't want to talk too
(13:29):
long, but when there are peopleout there saying, you know,
Democrats hate America orRepublicans hate America, we
have to get beyond that.
Democrats don't hate America,Republicans don't hate America.
And so voices that are tellingyou that, you know, are probably
not the ones you should belistening to.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Aaron Ross Powell And I think that's that's so
important when you look at someof the kind of more intricate
elements of the way our countryruns.
There's been in recent years allkinds of questions about our
elections and how voting works.
And it's i i it's a system.
There's constitutional authorityto the states to run elections.
(14:06):
There's you know, processes thateach state has developed because
that's the way our governmentworks.
They're different, and it's okaybecause that's exactly how it
was supposed to be.
But that means it's a littlemore complicated than just,
okay, every single person goesto one same-looking ballot and
votes.
It's just not exactly like that.
So that complication and thefact that so few people
(14:28):
understand it opens the door toquestioning.
But again, you know, we've neverhad a wide-scale questioning of
the way our elections worked onthe scale that we have in recent
years.
And you have to wonder who hasthe incentive to make Americans
question the results of theirelections.
It's probably really not otherAmericans.
It's probably much more soforeign adversaries who love
(14:51):
seeing Americans in fightingabout the quality of our of our
institutions and our democracy.
And so, you know, I I feel,again, like what an opportunity
is for for more people tounderstand how voting works, why
it is run by states, why it'sdifferent.
That basic information wouldgive people a lot more trust and
a lot more ability to push backon any sort of foreign or or
(15:12):
even domestic misinformationthat could come at them about
something as complex as as theway our voting works.
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (15:19):
There's a fundamental aspect that was
mentioned earlier on.
I think Jeremy, you mentionedthis.
One of the prints and anchoringprinciples of what democracy is
all about is limited governmentand individualism.
Both of those are major featuresthat incorporate the elements of
(15:42):
this in addition to others, butthose two in particular is what
motivates the most level ofanxiety, in my view, of those
who are really frustrated withthe way the process works, how
government actually fails to beefficient or equitable in their
(16:03):
judgment on any individualmatter.
And so, as a consequence, thisis a means to uh really revolt
against this form of governmentbecause it's inefficient by
definition.
When everybody has to beinvolved and everybody's
engaged, that's there's virtuein that, but it also takes time
(16:25):
and it takes tolerance and ittakes patience and all the
elements that frankly you knowmost of us as humans don't have.
So as a consequence, it it isalmost designed to create this
kind of anxiety for the purposeof hearing all points of view.
And to anybody who's looking foran efficient answer right away,
(16:48):
get on with it, let's do this,uh, that becomes a source of
great frustration.
And as a consequence, itmotivates folks to line up to
the view as we're hearing moreand more clearly, frankly, from
both sides of the aisle, thatthis is not a responsive
government.
This is not a and maybe thisform of government isn't the one
(17:11):
that we really need.
It was a I think a mostinstructive observation that
Alexis De Tokio observed in the1830s with his seminal work,
Democracy in America, thatobserved that one of the real
tendencies on the part ofdemocracy is unless it's cared
(17:34):
and attended to, it tends todegenerate into soft depotism.
And his term, that term of softdepotism was give me somebody
who can make a decision, get onwith this, and move forward.
Well, you may not like thatdecision, and you sure won't
like the fact that it's beingarrived at singularly by a very
(17:58):
small collective that makesthose choices, as opposed to all
of us at least being informed ofhow this process works.
That is the challenge of whatwhat democracy requires every
day that the founders envisionedand knew very well was creating
a constant source of anxiety,but one that beat the spots out
(18:20):
of every other alternative.
SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
The the uh um our system was designed to uh uh
make it hard to pass lawsbecause we didn't want uh
whatever the flavor of the dayto necessarily be the law that
then binds people and and uh andsuch.
We wanted laws to be madethoughtfully.
That's why we have a bicamerallegislature in the Congress with
(18:46):
two houses and in almost everystate in the country with the
exception of one of one.
And so that by definition meansthat government will work slowly
in making decisions, exceptsometimes in in times of
dramatic urgency, war, orresponding to a hurricane or
something.
You you can see the Congressmove pretty fast because they
(19:07):
know they need to, and everyoneis is aligned about what needs
to happen.
And you know, academic scholarscall the kind of democracy that
we have interest grouppluralism, because there are
many different people whobelieve that something different
should be the top priority, ormaybe even on uh on a subject
which everybody agrees on, theyhave different views about how
(19:31):
you should deal with that,providing additional housing,
for example, or dealing with thehomeless, or immigration, or
whatever it might be.
And what what how this hadalways worked was that uh you
would ascribe some decency andand uh a search for the common
good to people on the other sideof the aisle, and Democrats and
(19:53):
Republicans would wrestle aroundan issue, around what those
priorities were, uh, about howhow the The legislation should
be shaped.
If they couldn't agree, nothingwould happen.
But sometimes after maybe uh twoor three or five or ten years of
working on an issue, the thethere there would be a consensus
(20:14):
about what was the common good,and it usually involves some
kind of compromise.
No, neither side got everythingit wanted.
Or, and it's not just two sides,you know, 535 representatives
and senators, maybe 200different views of what should
happen, but at some point youcan't you get to a point where
you compromise and you agreehere's a bill that advances most
(20:35):
of what we want to do, some ofthe things you want, some of the
things I want, some of thethings that are important to my
particular state or district,and then we passed it.
And, you know, but that's that'show our system's supposed to
work is compromise.
And unfortunately, today,compromise has become almost a
dirty word.
And if you're a person whocompromises, whether you're a
Democrat or a Republican, itmeans someone's going to
(20:58):
challenge you in the nextprimary or you're, you know, an
evil person or something.
And we've got to get back, Ithink, to this notion of what is
the common good, seeing goodnessin other Americans, and that
yes, we can differ on what webelieve the right solution is,
but that doesn't mean the otherperson is evil or hates America
or is trying to enslave us.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, and I I love that.
And I think, you know, both umyou, Secretary Caldera and you,
Secretary O'Keefe, are kind ofuh a testament to that spirit,
right?
Because even though you servedin different administrations,
you come from differentpolitical parties, I see you
working together in various waysto advance that idea that, hey,
(21:40):
you know, America's best work isreally done when we do the hard,
messy work of democracy andcompromise, or you know, work
towards consensus where we canand compromise where we must.
But um, how do we get how do wechange politics?
Like, what are your thoughts?
I mean, we we described likeexternal threats to um our
(22:01):
national security by hostileforeign actors trying to crack
Americans' faith in our system,uh, to use advantage of that,
like you know, people who aretrying to dismantle the
international rules-based orderthat came after World War II.
Um, we we talked about like theimportance of really not looking
at your political opponents asenemies or people who hate our
country, um, and a lot of theoutrage politics that we see so
(22:25):
prevalent on TV today.
So, like, how do we as citizensdemand our better politics and
demand a better civics, I guess,within America?
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
Well, I think uh what Secretary Caldera pointed
to was just the the virtues ofunderstanding uh a multitude of
different points of view for thepurpose of trying to uh
compromise and work through to abest solution in the common uh
good.
And and I think Lewis, you'realso right that it has become
(22:59):
branded by extremists, of whichthere are growing numbers,
sadly, uh on on all sides of youknow these equations, that
really view compromise assomething that should be
avoided.
Well, let's look at this in adifferent way then.
What if we describe this aslet's start with the proposition
(23:21):
that we identify commoninterest, common objectives?
What are things that are ineverybody's best interest?
And if you start at that angle,that begins to then motivate a
dialogue, a debate, a discussionover what's the best means to
(23:41):
achieve that goal.
But at least you've agreed onthe front end of what is what is
important.
I mean, you Joe, you touched onon the on the critical issue of
national security.
We can all get around theproposition that we ought to
have a means to secure thenation.
Indeed, to provide for thenational security, it is the
(24:04):
proverbial public good that allof us benefit by.
Now, the means by which youaccomplish that, that's a worthy
debate.
But you know, moving off on thetangents of each of the
individual pieces of this, andone preference versus another,
is what causes the in theinevitable conflict and
(24:26):
differences of opinions.
Fine.
Let's reground and recenter onwhat is our common interest, and
that is the core of citizenship.
That's the core of what we'reall about, and why we've been
able to sustain this experimentfor more than two centuries.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
So in the area of civic engagement, I think one of
the most important things isthat we need advocates for the
democracy.
People who are not justadvocates for a party or uh one
or the other parties orindividual candidates, but who
are advocates for our democracy.
(25:05):
And what do I mean by that?
I mean that our system is onethat's that where we should want
everyone who's an eligiblecitizen to vote.
Uh we should want to maximizeparticipation uh and try to
create rules, yes, with withsecurity so that you know we
people don't vote twice andthose kinds of things, which is
(25:28):
pretty rare, but you still needto have some measures that
prevent that from happening.
But but we should wanteverybody's voice in the
process.
So, therefore, if in your stateyou see rules being enacted that
actually work to uh excludepeople from participating, then
you know we we should speak outor join those groups that are
(25:50):
trying to increaseparticipation.
I think one of the biggestthreats right now, one of the
things that uh is harming ourdemocracy, is the rampant
gerrymandering on both sides ofthe aisle, uh in their
particular in whatever statesthey happen to have the majority
in.
And what that does is it makesuh districts uncompetitive,
which means that the electionis, if it's a if it's a regular
(26:14):
partisan general election, thatthe election is really decided
in the primary of whoevercontrols the district, and you
end up with people appealing tothe most extremist ends of their
parties, whether left or right,and then therefore, and this is
how we end up sending people toCongress who are the
flamethrowers and the nocompromisers, uh, as opposed to,
(26:36):
you know, because we don't havecompetitive districts.
But there are things that arehappening.
So, for example, there arestates that are uh experimenting
with uh citizen commissions toredraw districts and taking it
out of the hands of thelegislature.
In some places they've done thisthrough the initiative process,
and where their goal is, youknow, let's create some more
(26:56):
competitive districts uh wherepeople have to appeal to
everybody.
There are experiments like uhtop uh five uh uh vote getters
move on to a primary or the orthe top two uh, I'm sorry,
ranked choice like ranked choicevoting or top two vote getters,
regardless of what theirpartisan affiliation is, will go
(27:17):
on to the the general election.
Those are all uh experimentsthat you know, we should look at
those because what what they'rewhat you're seeing is that
people are trying to say, how dowe create a system where people
have where candidates have toappeal to everybody?
And the candidates that uh notthe narrow niche candidates, but
the candidates who have anaffirmative, positive uh message
(27:40):
are are uh we hope more likelyto uh to succeed, or where the
elections are at leastcompetitive.
And and then, you know, and thenthere are other kinds of things.
Attract good people to run, uh,take some of that money and
influence out of politics thatmakes it just uh you know a
bidding war, uh, where the onlypeople who matter are the people
who fund your campaigns asopposed to the people that
(28:03):
you're gonna represent.
But I think there are there aregroups out there that are
working on many of these kindsof issues, and so if you're a
concerned American, you know,supporting, volunteering, uh uh
uh becoming educated about someof these kinds of efforts uh to
reinvigorate our democracy areare good places to invest your
time.
(28:23):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
And I know one of the areas that both of you
worked pretty uh intensivelylast uh presidential election
was around the issue of veteransand absentee ballots.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that and why that's
important?
I mean, that absentee ballotingand uh uh came under a lot of
criticism lately, but um couldplease share your thoughts on on
(28:44):
why that's important.
SPEAKER_04 (28:45):
Well, this is in in part the one of those really
unbelievable uh uh consequencesof the pandemic was it
accelerated our acceptance andunderstanding of absentee
voting, because we by definitionwere all uh you know confined to
(29:07):
quarters, as it were.
And uh as a result, it had tofind new and different ways to
really express our view onmatters.
And this was one that really washighlighted well before the
pandemic as being a realdisadvantage to veterans, uh and
to those who serve, actually, uhat presently, uh, who were
(29:28):
stationed across the globe or inuh another part of the world or
in any any other circumstance,this really was uh one of the
real disadvantages that mostactive duty and guard and
reserve personnel were subjectedto uh that needed to have a much
(29:51):
more uh you know uh expansiveway to count the vote of those
who are in service to us.
And that was a that's a nobleobjective in and of itself, and
one that I think made made sometremendous advances, and because
of that, that particularconsequence I think helped to
(30:12):
inform this broader citizenabsentee valid opportunity that
was brought you know reallyhoisted on us as a consequence
of a pandemic that providedfewer options to actually do so
in person.
So, you know, in in many ways,th this ought to be celebrated
(30:33):
as something that really didengage citizens in a much deeper
way.
And for those who are seeking torestrict that now, it is only
for one reason it's trying tosuppress the vote of those
they'd rather not hear from it.
And that's that's that's not aan excuse that ought to be
(30:54):
tolerated for one second.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
You know, there are some states now that do their
entire election by mail, and thethe name has changed from in
some cases absentee ballot tovote by mail, because you don't
even you don't even have to youdon't have to be out of town or
not at your home or wherever onon uh election day.
And so you know, so innovationslike uh early voting, um uh drop
(31:19):
places you can drop off yourballot, uh uh vote by mail, you
know, have been important waysto increase participation.
We saw, and we could look at thedata and see that for service
members, had a very large, youknow, a more significant
drop-off in whether their voteat the end of the day was
counted or not counted based onwhen it was received.
(31:41):
And so you and so you know, ifyou think about a service member
who's serving you know on asubmarine or overseas or maybe
is in the field or or is uhdeployed somewhere, uh, because
you know, as as as Ellen said,every state runs, they run
federal elections.
That's provided for in theConstitution.
But they have very differentdays about when do they do their
(32:02):
primaries?
When do you have to request youruh vote by mail?
How do you have to request it?
Does it have to be a livesignature?
Can you do it over the computer?
How many days are there betweenthe primary and the general
election?
There are some states whoseprimaries are so late, and if
you think about the mechanics ofelection, someone has to still
print ballots after thatprimary.
(32:24):
So if you can't request, youknow, if you have to request
your absentee ballot in writing,but you don't get the form to
request it until the ballot'sbeen printed, uh, it's going to
be almost impossible for a lotof military people and and over
other overseas voters arediplomats in their families, or
people who work overseas, orpeople who you know are have to
(32:46):
vote by mail because that's themost convenient for way for them
to participate.
You know, so those um uh thoseare little mechanical things,
but they're really important.
And that's that's why who is theSecretary of State?
How is election administrationwork?
Are these rules that on their,you know, on their face aren't
favoring one group or anothergroup?
(33:08):
All those things are are uhimportant.
And I think there are thankfullysome good government groups that
are uh focused on these issuesand you know calling calling out
of bounds when it seems likesomeone's trying to put their
their thumb on the scale, butalso coming up with ideas and
innovations for how to improveuh improve that system.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And thank you both for your yourthoughts on that.
I know one of the things that'sreally important to we, the
veterans of military families,is helping educate the military
and veteran community uh andtheir families about like just
how safe and secure ourelections are.
And um Ellen was just up in thestate of New Hampshire over the
weekend working with uh theSecretary of State up there to
(33:48):
bring veterans in to see a mockpolling station.
Do you want to talk about thatjust for a second?
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
Yeah, it's so true.
You know, again, these are I weI I joke a lot that, you know, I
I don't understand how a nuclearsubmarine gets launched.
I also don't understand how aSecretary of State fully
executes the incredibly safe andsecure elections that they do,
but they do.
And I think it's funny thatthere's some Americans that are
deeply questioning how theseelections work, but are not
necessarily sitting on the dockof uh of you know a Navy base
(34:14):
trying to understand howsubmarines are launched.
Um at some point we have totrust that we have these
institutions.
Again, we should alwaysquestion, um we should always be
curious, but um but the thedepth of inquiry in in some of
these things seems seems reallyunwarranted, especially um as
Joe was saying, we have thisincredible coalition, vet the
vote, of 29 military and veteranorganizations and and five
(34:36):
civics organizations.
And we we gathered uh a group ofveterans who worked as poll
workers, along with opening thedoors to any veteran or military
family um who was curious abouttheir elections in the state of
New Hampshire.
Of course, New Hampshire hassuch an important place in our
um in our political storybecause they're the first
primaries and there's so muchheated um you know uh heated in
(35:00):
a very cold climateelectioneering and and um and uh
you know focus on that state.
But what was amazing is thatSecretary of State Scanlinen
just said, hey, we'll set up apolling location, we'll show
everyone how the machines work,we'll show everyone how the
ballots work, we'll showeveryone who who does what in
the different jobs along theway.
And those people who came in andwere the uh explainers were all
(35:20):
veterans themselves.
Uh the woman who is the electionmonitor who runs elections in
Merrimack County as I wastalking to her is also a Navy
wife uh like me.
She was she was a Navy spouse uhmany, many years ago, her
husband was in.
And so, you know, these areincredibly trustworthy people
who care so much.
They took so seriously.
They had two people there whenthey opened uh the machine and
(35:40):
put the pieces together and usedthe key and printed out the
zeroing to show the machine waszeroed out.
I mean, they know how the systemworks.
They are not terrible people whoare trying to sneak uh sneak
fake fake ballots in.
And um, it's it's sad thatpeople that do those relatively
thankless jobs that are soincredibly important uh would be
questioned by people who justdon't understand.
(36:03):
So our call to action is justtry to understand it.
Just go somewhere and see if youcan figure it out.
And if you really want tounderstand it, go work as a poll
worker yourself.
Get in the mix, get educated,take the training, see how
incredibly serious it is.
Most of the veterans who who'vedone uh the poll worker training
through us have said it remindedthem a lot of military training.
It was incredibly serious.
They had to do their job, justlike we somehow get a nuclear
(36:25):
submarine to do their jobunderwater for for many, many
days.
We somehow do these incredibleelections um when we need to.
And I think Americans should beeducated but also reminded to
trust that that's just how ourinstitutions are set to work.
unknown (36:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
Yeah, and definitely that in own part of the process.
Jeremy, you're gonna saysomething.
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Yeah, I was just gonna add because I just
actually, it was just last week,um I redid my poll worker
training because I moved, I'm soI'm in a new location, did it in
a new part of New York City orNew York State, and one, we
opened with everyone stating thePledge of Allegiance, we went
through all the training, andthen it actually ended with
everyone taking an oath uh tothe Constitution to properly
(37:08):
execute these elections.
So to Ellen's point, if anyone,one, questions the security of
the elections or two is justcurious as to how they are
secure, could not recommend moredoing the training and becoming
a poll worker because one, itshows you just how incredibly
rigorous the system is, but alsoit's just incredibly rewarding
uh to work with people, likeoften by design, you know,
(37:31):
you're working as a bipartisanteam or as a nonpartisan team,
depending on how you want to doit, to ensure that people are
getting checked in, that thepeople are are who they say they
are, and that their ballots arecast and counted.
It's it's incredibly fulfilling.
And I've been doing it for anumber of years, but it just
coincidentally redid my traininglast week and kind of forgot
that we took an oath.
And that may change fromlocation to location, but it was
(37:52):
literally an oath to uphold theConstitution while doing these
duties.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
Definitely.
Yeah, I just took mine last uhlast month over at Warren
County, Virginia, theregistrar's office, uh, because
I moved this summer as well.
Um, you've both been verygenerous with your time.
I want to kind of uh throw outone last question to wrap things
up.
What can veterans do?
You know, we talked a lot aboutuh we covered a lot of ground
(38:19):
today, and uh, from yourperspective, what role does the
veteran and military family playin in helping make American
civics and American politicsbetter?
SPEAKER_03 (38:29):
Well, you know, what I one first I'd say that uh we
should always remember that uhpeople in uniform are citizens
also.
So they also get a right toparticipate and have a voice in
our political process.
They're not political, that isuh serving in the military is
nonpartisan, our military, ourour State Department, those
should always be nonpartisan.
(38:51):
But you still have a right, butyou have a right to vote.
So that participation uh isimportant.
And then as someone who has seenuh firsthand what our country
stands for, it's an importantrole in the world, super
important to be involved in incivic life, to continue to be
involved as an active uh citizenwho votes and is educated and
(39:13):
participates and shares theirperspectives on the issues that
are that are uh uh facing uh ourcountry.
Um and and if you and if youhave the time, be one of those
advocates for our democracybecause you understand uh how
important our democracy is.
You understand how much peopleall over this world are counting
(39:34):
on our country being thatstandard bearer for human rights
and democracy and uh making it amaking it a better, a better
world, a more safe and secureworld.
Um and so you know, we'll upholdthat uh we can uphold that if we
have the strong support of theAmerican uh people.
Uh so you can be part, a veryimportant part of the glue in
(39:57):
our in our country.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (40:01):
Yeah, there was a very interesting uh New York
Times article I read yesterdayon the Department of Defense
school system is among thehighest standards and
performance and so forth foreducation across the board of
(40:21):
any school system that we seearound the country, and there's
a whole lot of reasons for that.
It's not you know uh you knowsomething that is is just a
consequence of any oneindividual factor, but
nonetheless, um still isexemplary and it provides a with
(40:42):
veterans and those who are inservice today have an
opportunity to do is is andtheir children and those that
are that are part of theirfamilies really do have an
opportunity to understand as thethe discussion went in this
article to understand the basicfundamentals of what makes this
(41:05):
country operate the way it does,how effective way it can be
operated.
Terrible inefficient way ofdoing things it is effective
solutions.
(41:39):
Also we talked about why it's aresponsibility.
This is a responsibility ofanyway.
Given the atmosphere that theyhave, given you know for their
families and others, it isn'tperfect by any means, but it
certainly is a standard that iswhat that the rest of us as
(41:59):
citizens around the countryaspire to see in our
communities.
That's a great message, that's agreat opportunity to talk about
why it is we need to preserve uhthe basic principles of what
democracy calls for now.
And that they're part ofactually picking up an ore,
(42:21):
literally, in some cases, andyou know, defending that
capacity uh for all of us toenjoy.
And that's a reminder of that inanother subtle way as well.
So, you know, the combination isit it is a uh it becomes a
unique responsibility given thenature of uh their stepping up
(42:45):
to and volunteering to be partof this extraordinary effort to
defend this democratic way ofgovernment.
SPEAKER_02 (42:57):
Thank you so much.
I couldn't agree more.
You know, I think you know, wehear about democracy not being a
spectator sport.
I mean, we all have aresponsibility to get involved.
And I think, you know, one ofthe things I absolutely love
that I'm hearing in this uhconversation and other ones that
we've had before is more talkabout what we owe each other as
(43:17):
fellow Americans and citizens,what are our collective
responsibilities, how do we eachcontribute to this democratic
republic that we have, um, andhow do we keep it going so that
it you know it it it persistsfor not only our kids and
generations to come for sure.
Um Jeremy, uh Ellen, finalthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Yeah, you know, I I it was uh mentioned before, you
know, De Tocqueville's um sortof view of America.
And one of the things that I'mconstantly reminded of as a
military spouse is deTocqueville's um main point that
Americans across all ages andand backgrounds constantly
(44:02):
unite.
We constantly found ways, as heobserved, in just working
together, not just in politics,but you know, working together
in in farming communities, inurban communities, in in you
know, religious environments, inin just you know, community
organizations.
And what it wasn't saying, oh,ever everyone who was a Democrat
you know collaborated in thisway, and everyone who was
(44:23):
Republican collaborated in thisway.
It was just saying Americansjust tended to work together and
and we we had to build a countryfrom the ground up, so we had to
just kind of get our handsdirty.
And a lot of that,unfortunately, first of all, the
the getting our hands dirty,those obligations and
responsibilities that we'vetalked about, a lot of that has
seemed to fade in every singlecommunity, not just one or the
other.
No side can point to the othersaying it's faded just over
(44:45):
there.
Um, but one place that workingtogether across silos hasn't
faded, and I've can say thiswith 100% sincerity, is in the
military family community.
And I'm assuming also in manyways in the veteran community,
you know, I work with people toraise my children that are very
different backgrounds andpolitical views, and their
(45:07):
Instagram posts are reallydifferent from mine in many
ways.
But when it comes down to it andour family members are deployed
and we have to figure out howto, you know, get through a
hurricane coming to hit VirginiaBeach, we are going to work
together.
We are going to make it happen.
And that is something I wish formy fellow Americans to have less
of these silos and moreopportunities in, you know, in
(45:30):
this civic capacity to just workwith people from different
backgrounds and remember what,as I said before, what our
common goals are.
Um because there's way more incommon than there is than there
is uh that's that's differentand divisive.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Yeah, the the high school version of me would
definitely say that civicseducation is boring uh because I
said it and my grades probablyreflect it.
But I think uh to all of ustoday, it's much more relevant
because we're seeing it in reallife.
Uh I think in ways that you knowwe definitely didn't when I was
younger, and it's more so truenow, and I've talked about this
(46:06):
before.
You know, we're seeing whatsingle members of Congress can
do.
We're seeing what dividedCongress uh can result in in
terms of government shutdownsand potential shutdowns.
Um and I think the more we seethat in real life, hopefully the
more interested average citizenswill be in understanding why our
system is the way it is, aswe've discussed.
You know, it's it's designed tomake progress be slow, but it's
(46:29):
designed to make progressbenefit the majority of us.
Uh, and hopefully uh people willlearn from that uh and get
involved and and we can get getthings on a better path.
SPEAKER_02 (46:40):
Awesome.
Awesome.
All great thoughts.
I really appreciate uhespecially Secretary O'Keefe and
Secretary Caldera for taking thetime to share your wisdom with
us.
I know you do a lot of thinkingon our democracy and the world
stage and how you know what'sAmerica's role and how do we how
do we lead in this veryturbulent, chaotic world?
And I think, you know, one thingthat I've gathered from uh this
(47:02):
robust conversation today wasone, you know, any time that
Americans are tearing at eachother, we're really doing our
nation's opponent's job forthem.
And also to remember that theperson on the other side of the
political issue from you is alsoyour fellow American first, and
to keep that in mind so that wekind of stay focused on how do
we debate the issues instead ofhurling attacks at each other's
(47:23):
character, which would helpclean up politics quite a bit.
So, well, thank you both foryour time, and uh, we really,
really appreciate your yourthoughts and wisdom today.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (47:34):
Thank you.
Thank you, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (47:36):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you found this podcastepisode interesting or useful,
please share it with the peopleyou know.
This episode was co-hosted byJoe Plunzler, Ellen Gifterson,
and Jeremy Butler.
The audio and video were editedby Cameron King.
Vet Our Democracy is aproduction of We the Veterans
and Military Families, a 501c3not-for-profit, nonpartisan,
(47:58):
pro-democracy organization.
We are focused on promotingpositive and patriotic civic
engagement to strengthenAmerican democracy.
Find out more about us atweTheVeterans.us and follow us
on social media.
Until next time.
And and we now know that uh disinformation, uh, that
social media uh tends toaccentuate voices that are
negative and divisive.
And uh the you know, Russia andand China noticed, they
understood that.
And so they spent a lot of moneytrying to foment division within
our country, trying to turnAmericans against each other,
(00:22):
because they see that as harmingour country, advancing uh their
interests uh in the world.
SPEAKER_02 (00:32):
Hello and welcome to Vet Our Democracy, a podcast
series produced by We theVeterans and Military Families.
We are a nonprofit, nonpartisangroup of veterans and military
family members who are verypro-democracy.
I'm board member and retiredMarine Corps veteran Joe
Plensler, and my co-host todayare Elvin Gustafson, Executive
Director of We the Veterans andMilitary Families, and Jeremy
(00:53):
Butler, a U.S.
Navy Reserve Officer and ourChief Growth Officer.
And we're joined today by twovery special guests, Secretary
Lewis Caldera and Secretary SeanO'Keefe.
Secretary O'Keefe began hispublic service career in the
Department of Defense in 1978 asa presidential management
intern.
In his long and distinguishedcareer, he served most notably
under Republican administrationsas the Secretary of the Navy,
(01:16):
Deputy Director of the Office ofManagement and Budget, and one
of my favorites, theadministrator of NASA.
When he left government, heserved as Chancellor of the
Louisiana State University, andhe's presently a university
professor in the Howard andLouise Phillenstahl endowed
chair in leadership at SyracuseUniversity's Maxwell School of
Citizenship and Public Affairs.
(01:37):
Secretary Lewis Calderagraduated from the United States
Military Academy at West Pointin 1978 and served in the Army
on active duty from 78 to 83.
He obtained a jurisdoctorate andMBA from Harvard.
He practiced law and was electedto serve as a California State
Assemblyman.
He served in Democraticadministrations as a Secretary
of the Army and the assistant tothe President and Director of
(01:59):
the White House Military Office.
Secretary Caldera is now asenior lecturer at Harvard
Business School and serves onnumerous nonprofit and public
company boards and has on anumber of educational and
foreign policy and nationalsecurity commission task forces
and study groups.
Both Secretary O'Keefe andCaldera have collaborated on
pro-democracy and civics issuesin the past, and I'm really
(02:19):
looking forward to today'sdiscussion on the role of public
understanding to civics and howthat plays into our national
security and our domestictranquility, and what veterans
can do to help reinforce thefoundations of our
constitutional democraticrepublic.
So to all, welcome.
So to start the discussiontoday, uh why is it important
for American citizens tounderstand civics?
SPEAKER_04 (02:42):
Well, first and foremost, I think it's uh
because it's uh such aperishable condition.
This is not something thatsustains itself on its own.
It requires the engagement ofthe citizens to actually express
the will of the people.
And to do so in a manner that isnot only fulsome but in full
weight of all the factors to beconsidered.
(03:04):
Um it's one that's you knowconsidered something that is
just on autopilot.
That's when it begins to erode.
SPEAKER_03 (03:13):
So uh uh first of all, thanks for for having us uh
today uh on this importanttopic.
And uh, you know, I totallyagree with uh what uh Sean
Secretary Keefe just said.
You know, we're we're reallyblessed to live in this great,
great nation that it was notfordained at our founding that
we would be today the greatestnation in the world.
But that happened because one,we had a structure for our
(03:36):
government, which was thisexperiment in representative
democracy and freedoms, andfreedom that allowed people to
have private enterprise and propproperty and create the
affluence that we have today.
But we along with the with therights uh that we know are in
our constitution, there are theresponsibilities of citizenship.
(03:57):
And those include all the menand women who have fought for
our freedoms from that uh war ofindependence through every
single war that there have beenAmericans who've been willing to
stand up and fight for ourcountry.
And the and and and theobligations of citizenship also
uh you know, civics is aparticipatory sport.
(04:18):
That means you have to vote,that means you have to be
engaged, that means you have tobe educated about the you know
what the issues are uh so thatyou can make informed decisions
uh you know at the ballot box.
You know, so if you take, forexample, what's happening today
uh in the Middle East in the waruh that uh Hamas' attack on
Israel, uh all of a sudden, youknow, a lot of us are looking,
(04:38):
saying, I need to relearn whatuh this history is, what the
challenges are, what theimplications of this is.
Uh and when policymakers uhsuggest different courses of
action, you know, we we will bebetter informed to judge how
well they are actually uhrepresenting us and our country
uh in in responding uh to thatbecause we now play a leadership
(05:02):
role in the world.
You know, our country does.
And so therefore, we have to beinformed and engaged citizens.
SPEAKER_02 (05:10):
Thank you so much for your thoughts.
Ellen, Jeremy.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
Yeah, you know, I think I love what Secretary
Caldera said about um the twosides of understanding our civic
responsibility, the rights andresponsibilities or obligations
of citizenship.
I think we are so buried inconversations, especially you
know, loud screaming about whoserights uh are are won and whose
rights you know tr could trampleothers, we are forgetting the
(05:35):
other equally important side ofcitizenship, which is our
responsibilities andobligations.
The other thing that that's soimportant for us to understand,
and we we say this often, youknow, as a as a military spouse
myself and in the company of allwonderful veterans that that um
I work with, people assume thatas a military family or a
veteran, you know about civics.
(05:56):
You know about the way thegovernment works and the
different branches and what theConstitution actually says and
what every law says.
But but we we don't have anygreater level of education
ourselves uh unless we've sawedit or a very narrow group who
who's maybe gone to a serviceacademy.
You know, a a a person in ingeneral connected to the
military doesn't get a baselineeducation on civics.
(06:17):
It's not part of the training.
And it's incredibly important.
Um but you know, it it's also umit's almost like you know giving
us some false uh credentials inbeing able to speak publicly
about some of these issues.
The other thing I think that'sso fascinating about our time is
that there is a degradation ofsome of the most basic jobs
(06:38):
needed to keep our countrygoing.
And I think that really comesfrom lack of education.
You know, there's an immediateknee-jerk reaction against
things like the wordbureaucracy.
Well, that's what keeps ourgovernment going.
People that are doing theseimportant but quiet and and and
maybe seemingly boring jobs uhyear in and year out are keeping
uh are keeping our governmentgoing and are keeping our
(06:58):
country um as as wonderful as itis.
And I think you know that's partof what education might help us
turn the tide on.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
I'd also add that um, you know, our form of
government was designed to beiterative.
You know, it wasn't, you know,the Constitution, the Bill of
Rights, all of these things weremeant to evolve, uh, and you
know you can interpret that wordhow you want to, as time
progresses.
You know, we often talk aboutthe Bill of Rights and things
like that.
You know, these are amendments.
Like the Constitution wasdesigned to be amended, um, and
(07:30):
even at a much lower level, ifyou don't understand some of the
basics of civics, it's hard tohave a better understanding of
where things need to change, howthings need to change, the
difference between uh rightsthat are imbued in the
Constitution and those that arepassed down to the state level.
So when when average citizensare having these conversations
and talking to their electedofficials or those that want to
(07:52):
become elected, it's veryhelpful to have an understanding
of what the government wasdesigned to do and not do and
who should be having theserights and and regulations uh so
that we just have a moreinformed conversation.
Too often, you know, the loudestvoices are assumed to be the
correct ones.
When I think we all know you toooften hear people talking heads
on the news, you know, spoutingwhat they claim to be facts,
(08:13):
which uh are really notaccurate.
SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
Yeah.
I mean, it which brings up areally important thought, like,
you know, of limited government,right, where we have majority
rule but also protecting therights of the non-majority
within our country as well.
So um you know, what we hear alot about like democracy around
the world being under attack,and we're fortunate today to be
(08:36):
joined by two former servicesecretaries who I know keep a uh
keep their pulse on what's goingon around the world.
Um we also know there's beendocumented attempts by hostile
foreign governments to crack theAmerican people's trust in
democracy.
So I'd like to ask you,gentlemen, from each of your
perspectives, like what's thegreatest threat out there?
And um what are these folkstrying to get us to believe as
(08:57):
citizens?
SPEAKER_04 (09:00):
Well, it's I think it's it's first and foremost to
attempt to erode our confidencein being uh part of this
extraordinary experiment that'sbeen underway for two centuries
and still sustaining itselfbased on a set of inviolate
(09:20):
principles that uh if you canerode the confidence in those
principles, qu have peoplequestion the rule of law,
question the fundamental rightsand responsibilities, as uh has
been mentioned earlier, ofcitizenship, then there's a
vulnerability that opens.
(09:42):
And so to the extent that you'retrying to exploit uh a weakness
in what democracy calls for,there are so many, there's a
multitude of ways to accomplishthat task by simply questioning
the underpinnings of what it isthat you know is is motivated by
(10:04):
that form of governance.
And it is an unusual case, butit nonetheless is one that uh is
uh information warfare issometimes more deadly than many
other forms of warfare that weare well prepared to try to
respond to.
This one we're still wrestlingwith it.
SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
Yeah, I'm glad, you know, uh Sean, I'm glad you
mentioned uh informationwarfare.
You know, since since World WarII, really when when the forces
of freedom uh defeated uh theNazis and the forces of uh
oppression, uh, the U.S.
has had played an increasinglysignificant leadership role in
the world as the country thatcarried the banner for
(10:49):
democracy, for protection ofhuman rights, uh for free trade,
and uh all the things that havecreated the society that we have
today.
And we clearly have uhadversaries in the world, uh
particularly countries that areautocratic, uh, that uh run in a
different form of government,uh, which don't even meet what
(11:12):
they say their goals of theirgovernment are.
What they really are is they'recountries where a small elite is
entrenched and where they use uhpolice powers and military power
to keep themselves uh uh inpower and to oppress even their
own people.
And then to try to to and andwe're we're in a in a global
contest uh with those uh forcesin those countries.
(11:35):
And then there's all otherforces uh like in you know the
uh Islamist jihadists and otherterrorists and and other and
other uh uh hotspots in in theworld.
And so as as we've contestedthese uh uh forces, uh we we
they use the tools that areavailable to them.
And our world has become youknow very complex, uh that in
(11:58):
part through globalization andpart through technological
advancements, and part of thattechnology is information
technology, as uh as uhSecretary O'Keefe was saying.
And and we now know that uhdisinformation, uh, that social
media uh tends to accentuatevoices that are negative and
divisive.
And uh the you know, Russia andand China noticed, they
(12:21):
understood that.
And so they spent a lot of moneytrying to foment division within
our country, trying to turnAmericans against each other,
because they see that as harmingour country, advancing uh their
interests uh in the world.
Uh and so you know it's it'ssomething that uh that is in
many ways growing.
You know, artificialintelligence means that there's
(12:44):
even new levels of uh of uhmisinformation that are possible
and deep fakes and things likethat.
You know, so and that that'sgonna also uh put a challenge on
us to be uh smart and educatedabout understanding what kind of
information is trustworthy, whatkind of information should I
really have suspicions about,and not just be in a in a deep
(13:08):
well of only hearing the voicesthat you agree with, but of
understanding what are trustedvoices and um and and maybe
sometimes even having a uh youknow a little bit of uh of
believing that that is sooutlandish.
It can't possibly be true.
Uh and so when there are people,and I don't want to talk too
(13:29):
long, but when there are peopleout there saying, you know,
Democrats hate America orRepublicans hate America, we
have to get beyond that.
Democrats don't hate America,Republicans don't hate America.
And so voices that are tellingyou that, you know, are probably
not the ones you should belistening to.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Aaron Ross Powell And I think that's that's so
important when you look at someof the kind of more intricate
elements of the way our countryruns.
There's been in recent years allkinds of questions about our
elections and how voting works.
And it's i i it's a system.
There's constitutional authorityto the states to run elections.
(14:06):
There's you know, processes thateach state has developed because
that's the way our governmentworks.
They're different, and it's okaybecause that's exactly how it
was supposed to be.
But that means it's a littlemore complicated than just,
okay, every single person goesto one same-looking ballot and
votes.
It's just not exactly like that.
So that complication and thefact that so few people
(14:28):
understand it opens the door toquestioning.
But again, you know, we've neverhad a wide-scale questioning of
the way our elections worked onthe scale that we have in recent
years.
And you have to wonder who hasthe incentive to make Americans
question the results of theirelections.
It's probably really not otherAmericans.
It's probably much more soforeign adversaries who love
(14:51):
seeing Americans in fightingabout the quality of our of our
institutions and our democracy.
And so, you know, I I feel,again, like what an opportunity
is for for more people tounderstand how voting works, why
it is run by states, why it'sdifferent.
That basic information wouldgive people a lot more trust and
a lot more ability to push backon any sort of foreign or or
(15:12):
even domestic misinformationthat could come at them about
something as complex as as theway our voting works.
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (15:19):
There's a fundamental aspect that was
mentioned earlier on.
I think Jeremy, you mentionedthis.
One of the prints and anchoringprinciples of what democracy is
all about is limited governmentand individualism.
Both of those are major featuresthat incorporate the elements of
(15:42):
this in addition to others, butthose two in particular is what
motivates the most level ofanxiety, in my view, of those
who are really frustrated withthe way the process works, how
government actually fails to beefficient or equitable in their
(16:03):
judgment on any individualmatter.
And so, as a consequence, thisis a means to uh really revolt
against this form of governmentbecause it's inefficient by
definition.
When everybody has to beinvolved and everybody's
engaged, that's there's virtuein that, but it also takes time
(16:25):
and it takes tolerance and ittakes patience and all the
elements that frankly you knowmost of us as humans don't have.
So as a consequence, it it isalmost designed to create this
kind of anxiety for the purposeof hearing all points of view.
And to anybody who's looking foran efficient answer right away,
(16:48):
get on with it, let's do this,uh, that becomes a source of
great frustration.
And as a consequence, itmotivates folks to line up to
the view as we're hearing moreand more clearly, frankly, from
both sides of the aisle, thatthis is not a responsive
government.
This is not a and maybe thisform of government isn't the one
(17:11):
that we really need.
It was a I think a mostinstructive observation that
Alexis De Tokio observed in the1830s with his seminal work,
Democracy in America, thatobserved that one of the real
tendencies on the part ofdemocracy is unless it's cared
(17:34):
and attended to, it tends todegenerate into soft depotism.
And his term, that term of softdepotism was give me somebody
who can make a decision, get onwith this, and move forward.
Well, you may not like thatdecision, and you sure won't
like the fact that it's beingarrived at singularly by a very
(17:58):
small collective that makesthose choices, as opposed to all
of us at least being informed ofhow this process works.
That is the challenge of whatwhat democracy requires every
day that the founders envisionedand knew very well was creating
a constant source of anxiety,but one that beat the spots out
(18:20):
of every other alternative.
SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
The the uh um our system was designed to uh uh
make it hard to pass lawsbecause we didn't want uh
whatever the flavor of the dayto necessarily be the law that
then binds people and and uh andsuch.
We wanted laws to be madethoughtfully.
That's why we have a bicamerallegislature in the Congress with
(18:46):
two houses and in almost everystate in the country with the
exception of one of one.
And so that by definition meansthat government will work slowly
in making decisions, exceptsometimes in in times of
dramatic urgency, war, orresponding to a hurricane or
something.
You you can see the Congressmove pretty fast because they
(19:07):
know they need to, and everyoneis is aligned about what needs
to happen.
And you know, academic scholarscall the kind of democracy that
we have interest grouppluralism, because there are
many different people whobelieve that something different
should be the top priority, ormaybe even on uh on a subject
which everybody agrees on, theyhave different views about how
(19:31):
you should deal with that,providing additional housing,
for example, or dealing with thehomeless, or immigration, or
whatever it might be.
And what what how this hadalways worked was that uh you
would ascribe some decency andand uh a search for the common
good to people on the other sideof the aisle, and Democrats and
(19:53):
Republicans would wrestle aroundan issue, around what those
priorities were, uh, about howhow the The legislation should
be shaped.
If they couldn't agree, nothingwould happen.
But sometimes after maybe uh twoor three or five or ten years of
working on an issue, the thethere there would be a consensus
(20:14):
about what was the common good,and it usually involves some
kind of compromise.
No, neither side got everythingit wanted.
Or, and it's not just two sides,you know, 535 representatives
and senators, maybe 200different views of what should
happen, but at some point youcan't you get to a point where
you compromise and you agreehere's a bill that advances most
(20:35):
of what we want to do, some ofthe things you want, some of the
things I want, some of thethings that are important to my
particular state or district,and then we passed it.
And, you know, but that's that'show our system's supposed to
work is compromise.
And unfortunately, today,compromise has become almost a
dirty word.
And if you're a person whocompromises, whether you're a
Democrat or a Republican, itmeans someone's going to
(20:58):
challenge you in the nextprimary or you're, you know, an
evil person or something.
And we've got to get back, Ithink, to this notion of what is
the common good, seeing goodnessin other Americans, and that
yes, we can differ on what webelieve the right solution is,
but that doesn't mean the otherperson is evil or hates America
or is trying to enslave us.
SPEAKER_02 (21:20):
Yeah, and I I love that.
And I think, you know, both umyou, Secretary Caldera and you,
Secretary O'Keefe, are kind ofuh a testament to that spirit,
right?
Because even though you servedin different administrations,
you come from differentpolitical parties, I see you
working together in various waysto advance that idea that, hey,
(21:40):
you know, America's best work isreally done when we do the hard,
messy work of democracy andcompromise, or you know, work
towards consensus where we canand compromise where we must.
But um, how do we get how do wechange politics?
Like, what are your thoughts?
I mean, we we described likeexternal threats to um our
(22:01):
national security by hostileforeign actors trying to crack
Americans' faith in our system,uh, to use advantage of that,
like you know, people who aretrying to dismantle the
international rules-based orderthat came after World War II.
Um, we we talked about like theimportance of really not looking
at your political opponents asenemies or people who hate our
country, um, and a lot of theoutrage politics that we see so
(22:25):
prevalent on TV today.
So, like, how do we as citizensdemand our better politics and
demand a better civics, I guess,within America?
SPEAKER_04 (22:35):
Well, I think uh what Secretary Caldera pointed
to was just the the virtues ofunderstanding uh a multitude of
different points of view for thepurpose of trying to uh
compromise and work through to abest solution in the common uh
good.
And and I think Lewis, you'realso right that it has become
(22:59):
branded by extremists, of whichthere are growing numbers,
sadly, uh on on all sides of youknow these equations, that
really view compromise assomething that should be
avoided.
Well, let's look at this in adifferent way then.
What if we describe this aslet's start with the proposition
(23:21):
that we identify commoninterest, common objectives?
What are things that are ineverybody's best interest?
And if you start at that angle,that begins to then motivate a
dialogue, a debate, a discussionover what's the best means to
(23:41):
achieve that goal.
But at least you've agreed onthe front end of what is what is
important.
I mean, you Joe, you touched onon the on the critical issue of
national security.
We can all get around theproposition that we ought to
have a means to secure thenation.
Indeed, to provide for thenational security, it is the
(24:04):
proverbial public good that allof us benefit by.
Now, the means by which youaccomplish that, that's a worthy
debate.
But you know, moving off on thetangents of each of the
individual pieces of this, andone preference versus another,
is what causes the in theinevitable conflict and
(24:26):
differences of opinions.
Fine.
Let's reground and recenter onwhat is our common interest, and
that is the core of citizenship.
That's the core of what we'reall about, and why we've been
able to sustain this experimentfor more than two centuries.
SPEAKER_03 (24:45):
So in the area of civic engagement, I think one of
the most important things isthat we need advocates for the
democracy.
People who are not justadvocates for a party or uh one
or the other parties orindividual candidates, but who
are advocates for our democracy.
(25:05):
And what do I mean by that?
I mean that our system is onethat's that where we should want
everyone who's an eligiblecitizen to vote.
Uh we should want to maximizeparticipation uh and try to
create rules, yes, with withsecurity so that you know we
people don't vote twice andthose kinds of things, which is
(25:28):
pretty rare, but you still needto have some measures that
prevent that from happening.
But but we should wanteverybody's voice in the
process.
So, therefore, if in your stateyou see rules being enacted that
actually work to uh excludepeople from participating, then
you know we we should speak outor join those groups that are
(25:50):
trying to increaseparticipation.
I think one of the biggestthreats right now, one of the
things that uh is harming ourdemocracy, is the rampant
gerrymandering on both sides ofthe aisle, uh in their
particular in whatever statesthey happen to have the majority
in.
And what that does is it makesuh districts uncompetitive,
which means that the electionis, if it's a if it's a regular
(26:14):
partisan general election, thatthe election is really decided
in the primary of whoevercontrols the district, and you
end up with people appealing tothe most extremist ends of their
parties, whether left or right,and then therefore, and this is
how we end up sending people toCongress who are the
flamethrowers and the nocompromisers, uh, as opposed to,
(26:36):
you know, because we don't havecompetitive districts.
But there are things that arehappening.
So, for example, there arestates that are uh experimenting
with uh citizen commissions toredraw districts and taking it
out of the hands of thelegislature.
In some places they've done thisthrough the initiative process,
and where their goal is, youknow, let's create some more
(26:56):
competitive districts uh wherepeople have to appeal to
everybody.
There are experiments like uhtop uh five uh uh vote getters
move on to a primary or the orthe top two uh, I'm sorry,
ranked choice like ranked choicevoting or top two vote getters,
regardless of what theirpartisan affiliation is, will go
(27:17):
on to the the general election.
Those are all uh experimentsthat you know, we should look at
those because what what they'rewhat you're seeing is that
people are trying to say, how dowe create a system where people
have where candidates have toappeal to everybody?
And the candidates that uh notthe narrow niche candidates, but
the candidates who have anaffirmative, positive uh message
(27:40):
are are uh we hope more likelyto uh to succeed, or where the
elections are at leastcompetitive.
And and then, you know, and thenthere are other kinds of things.
Attract good people to run, uh,take some of that money and
influence out of politics thatmakes it just uh you know a
bidding war, uh, where the onlypeople who matter are the people
who fund your campaigns asopposed to the people that
(28:03):
you're gonna represent.
But I think there are there aregroups out there that are
working on many of these kindsof issues, and so if you're a
concerned American, you know,supporting, volunteering, uh uh
uh becoming educated about someof these kinds of efforts uh to
reinvigorate our democracy areare good places to invest your
time.
(28:23):
Excellent.
SPEAKER_02 (28:23):
And I know one of the areas that both of you
worked pretty uh intensivelylast uh presidential election
was around the issue of veteransand absentee ballots.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that and why that's
important?
I mean, that absentee ballotingand uh uh came under a lot of
criticism lately, but um couldplease share your thoughts on on
(28:44):
why that's important.
SPEAKER_04 (28:45):
Well, this is in in part the one of those really
unbelievable uh uh consequencesof the pandemic was it
accelerated our acceptance andunderstanding of absentee
voting, because we by definitionwere all uh you know confined to
(29:07):
quarters, as it were.
And uh as a result, it had tofind new and different ways to
really express our view onmatters.
And this was one that really washighlighted well before the
pandemic as being a realdisadvantage to veterans, uh and
to those who serve, actually, uhat presently, uh, who were
(29:28):
stationed across the globe or inuh another part of the world or
in any any other circumstance,this really was uh one of the
real disadvantages that mostactive duty and guard and
reserve personnel were subjectedto uh that needed to have a much
(29:51):
more uh you know uh expansiveway to count the vote of those
who are in service to us.
And that was a that's a nobleobjective in and of itself, and
one that I think made made sometremendous advances, and because
of that, that particularconsequence I think helped to
(30:12):
inform this broader citizenabsentee valid opportunity that
was brought you know reallyhoisted on us as a consequence
of a pandemic that providedfewer options to actually do so
in person.
So, you know, in in many ways,th this ought to be celebrated
(30:33):
as something that really didengage citizens in a much deeper
way.
And for those who are seeking torestrict that now, it is only
for one reason it's trying tosuppress the vote of those
they'd rather not hear from it.
And that's that's that's not aan excuse that ought to be
(30:54):
tolerated for one second.
SPEAKER_03 (30:56):
You know, there are some states now that do their
entire election by mail, and thethe name has changed from in
some cases absentee ballot tovote by mail, because you don't
even you don't even have to youdon't have to be out of town or
not at your home or wherever onon uh election day.
And so you know, so innovationslike uh early voting, um uh drop
(31:19):
places you can drop off yourballot, uh uh vote by mail, you
know, have been important waysto increase participation.
We saw, and we could look at thedata and see that for service
members, had a very large, youknow, a more significant
drop-off in whether their voteat the end of the day was
counted or not counted based onwhen it was received.
(31:41):
And so you and so you know, ifyou think about a service member
who's serving you know on asubmarine or overseas or maybe
is in the field or or is uhdeployed somewhere, uh, because
you know, as as as Ellen said,every state runs, they run
federal elections.
That's provided for in theConstitution.
But they have very differentdays about when do they do their
(32:02):
primaries?
When do you have to request youruh vote by mail?
How do you have to request it?
Does it have to be a livesignature?
Can you do it over the computer?
How many days are there betweenthe primary and the general
election?
There are some states whoseprimaries are so late, and if
you think about the mechanics ofelection, someone has to still
print ballots after thatprimary.
(32:24):
So if you can't request, youknow, if you have to request
your absentee ballot in writing,but you don't get the form to
request it until the ballot'sbeen printed, uh, it's going to
be almost impossible for a lotof military people and and over
other overseas voters arediplomats in their families, or
people who work overseas, orpeople who you know are have to
(32:46):
vote by mail because that's themost convenient for way for them
to participate.
You know, so those um uh thoseare little mechanical things,
but they're really important.
And that's that's why who is theSecretary of State?
How is election administrationwork?
Are these rules that on their,you know, on their face aren't
favoring one group or anothergroup?
(33:08):
All those things are are uhimportant.
And I think there are thankfullysome good government groups that
are uh focused on these issuesand you know calling calling out
of bounds when it seems likesomeone's trying to put their
their thumb on the scale, butalso coming up with ideas and
innovations for how to improveuh improve that system.
SPEAKER_02 (33:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And thank you both for your yourthoughts on that.
I know one of the things that'sreally important to we, the
veterans of military families,is helping educate the military
and veteran community uh andtheir families about like just
how safe and secure ourelections are.
And um Ellen was just up in thestate of New Hampshire over the
weekend working with uh theSecretary of State up there to
(33:48):
bring veterans in to see a mockpolling station.
Do you want to talk about thatjust for a second?
SPEAKER_00 (33:52):
Yeah, it's so true.
You know, again, these are I weI I joke a lot that, you know, I
I don't understand how a nuclearsubmarine gets launched.
I also don't understand how aSecretary of State fully
executes the incredibly safe andsecure elections that they do,
but they do.
And I think it's funny thatthere's some Americans that are
deeply questioning how theseelections work, but are not
necessarily sitting on the dockof uh of you know a Navy base
(34:14):
trying to understand howsubmarines are launched.
Um at some point we have totrust that we have these
institutions.
Again, we should alwaysquestion, um we should always be
curious, but um but the thedepth of inquiry in in some of
these things seems seems reallyunwarranted, especially um as
Joe was saying, we have thisincredible coalition, vet the
vote, of 29 military and veteranorganizations and and five
(34:36):
civics organizations.
And we we gathered uh a group ofveterans who worked as poll
workers, along with opening thedoors to any veteran or military
family um who was curious abouttheir elections in the state of
New Hampshire.
Of course, New Hampshire hassuch an important place in our
um in our political storybecause they're the first
primaries and there's so muchheated um you know uh heated in
(35:00):
a very cold climateelectioneering and and um and uh
you know focus on that state.
But what was amazing is thatSecretary of State Scanlinen
just said, hey, we'll set up apolling location, we'll show
everyone how the machines work,we'll show everyone how the
ballots work, we'll showeveryone who who does what in
the different jobs along theway.
And those people who came in andwere the uh explainers were all
(35:20):
veterans themselves.
Uh the woman who is the electionmonitor who runs elections in
Merrimack County as I wastalking to her is also a Navy
wife uh like me.
She was she was a Navy spouse uhmany, many years ago, her
husband was in.
And so, you know, these areincredibly trustworthy people
who care so much.
They took so seriously.
They had two people there whenthey opened uh the machine and
(35:40):
put the pieces together and usedthe key and printed out the
zeroing to show the machine waszeroed out.
I mean, they know how the systemworks.
They are not terrible people whoare trying to sneak uh sneak
fake fake ballots in.
And um, it's it's sad thatpeople that do those relatively
thankless jobs that are soincredibly important uh would be
questioned by people who justdon't understand.
(36:03):
So our call to action is justtry to understand it.
Just go somewhere and see if youcan figure it out.
And if you really want tounderstand it, go work as a poll
worker yourself.
Get in the mix, get educated,take the training, see how
incredibly serious it is.
Most of the veterans who who'vedone uh the poll worker training
through us have said it remindedthem a lot of military training.
It was incredibly serious.
They had to do their job, justlike we somehow get a nuclear
(36:25):
submarine to do their jobunderwater for for many, many
days.
We somehow do these incredibleelections um when we need to.
And I think Americans should beeducated but also reminded to
trust that that's just how ourinstitutions are set to work.
unknown (36:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (36:41):
Yeah, and definitely that in own part of the process.
Jeremy, you're gonna saysomething.
SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Yeah, I was just gonna add because I just
actually, it was just last week,um I redid my poll worker
training because I moved, I'm soI'm in a new location, did it in
a new part of New York City orNew York State, and one, we
opened with everyone stating thePledge of Allegiance, we went
through all the training, andthen it actually ended with
everyone taking an oath uh tothe Constitution to properly
(37:08):
execute these elections.
So to Ellen's point, if anyone,one, questions the security of
the elections or two is justcurious as to how they are
secure, could not recommend moredoing the training and becoming
a poll worker because one, itshows you just how incredibly
rigorous the system is, but alsoit's just incredibly rewarding
uh to work with people, likeoften by design, you know,
(37:31):
you're working as a bipartisanteam or as a nonpartisan team,
depending on how you want to doit, to ensure that people are
getting checked in, that thepeople are are who they say they
are, and that their ballots arecast and counted.
It's it's incredibly fulfilling.
And I've been doing it for anumber of years, but it just
coincidentally redid my traininglast week and kind of forgot
that we took an oath.
And that may change fromlocation to location, but it was
(37:52):
literally an oath to uphold theConstitution while doing these
duties.
SPEAKER_02 (37:56):
Definitely.
Yeah, I just took mine last uhlast month over at Warren
County, Virginia, theregistrar's office, uh, because
I moved this summer as well.
Um, you've both been verygenerous with your time.
I want to kind of uh throw outone last question to wrap things
up.
What can veterans do?
You know, we talked a lot aboutuh we covered a lot of ground
(38:19):
today, and uh, from yourperspective, what role does the
veteran and military family playin in helping make American
civics and American politicsbetter?
SPEAKER_03 (38:29):
Well, you know, what I one first I'd say that uh we
should always remember that uhpeople in uniform are citizens
also.
So they also get a right toparticipate and have a voice in
our political process.
They're not political, that isuh serving in the military is
nonpartisan, our military, ourour State Department, those
should always be nonpartisan.
(38:51):
But you still have a right, butyou have a right to vote.
So that participation uh isimportant.
And then as someone who has seenuh firsthand what our country
stands for, it's an importantrole in the world, super
important to be involved in incivic life, to continue to be
involved as an active uh citizenwho votes and is educated and
(39:13):
participates and shares theirperspectives on the issues that
are that are uh uh facing uh ourcountry.
Um and and if you and if youhave the time, be one of those
advocates for our democracybecause you understand uh how
important our democracy is.
You understand how much peopleall over this world are counting
(39:34):
on our country being thatstandard bearer for human rights
and democracy and uh making it amaking it a better, a better
world, a more safe and secureworld.
Um and so you know, we'll upholdthat uh we can uphold that if we
have the strong support of theAmerican uh people.
Uh so you can be part, a veryimportant part of the glue in
(39:57):
our in our country.
Thank you.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (40:01):
Yeah, there was a very interesting uh New York
Times article I read yesterdayon the Department of Defense
school system is among thehighest standards and
performance and so forth foreducation across the board of
(40:21):
any school system that we seearound the country, and there's
a whole lot of reasons for that.
It's not you know uh you knowsomething that is is just a
consequence of any oneindividual factor, but
nonetheless, um still isexemplary and it provides a with
(40:42):
veterans and those who are inservice today have an
opportunity to do is is andtheir children and those that
are that are part of theirfamilies really do have an
opportunity to understand as thethe discussion went in this
article to understand the basicfundamentals of what makes this
(41:05):
country operate the way it does,how effective way it can be
operated.
Terrible inefficient way ofdoing things it is effective
solutions.
(41:39):
Also we talked about why it's aresponsibility.
This is a responsibility ofanyway.
Given the atmosphere that theyhave, given you know for their
families and others, it isn'tperfect by any means, but it
certainly is a standard that iswhat that the rest of us as
(41:59):
citizens around the countryaspire to see in our
communities.
That's a great message, that's agreat opportunity to talk about
why it is we need to preserve uhthe basic principles of what
democracy calls for now.
And that they're part ofactually picking up an ore,
(42:21):
literally, in some cases, andyou know, defending that
capacity uh for all of us toenjoy.
And that's a reminder of that inanother subtle way as well.
So, you know, the combination isit it is a uh it becomes a
unique responsibility given thenature of uh their stepping up
(42:45):
to and volunteering to be partof this extraordinary effort to
defend this democratic way ofgovernment.
SPEAKER_02 (42:57):
Thank you so much.
I couldn't agree more.
You know, I think you know, wehear about democracy not being a
spectator sport.
I mean, we all have aresponsibility to get involved.
And I think, you know, one ofthe things I absolutely love
that I'm hearing in this uhconversation and other ones that
we've had before is more talkabout what we owe each other as
(43:17):
fellow Americans and citizens,what are our collective
responsibilities, how do we eachcontribute to this democratic
republic that we have, um, andhow do we keep it going so that
it you know it it it persistsfor not only our kids and
generations to come for sure.
Um Jeremy, uh Ellen, finalthoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (43:40):
Yeah, you know, I I it was uh mentioned before, you
know, De Tocqueville's um sortof view of America.
And one of the things that I'mconstantly reminded of as a
military spouse is deTocqueville's um main point that
Americans across all ages andand backgrounds constantly
(44:02):
unite.
We constantly found ways, as heobserved, in just working
together, not just in politics,but you know, working together
in in farming communities, inurban communities, in in you
know, religious environments, inin just you know, community
organizations.
And what it wasn't saying, oh,ever everyone who was a Democrat
you know collaborated in thisway, and everyone who was
(44:23):
Republican collaborated in thisway.
It was just saying Americansjust tended to work together and
and we we had to build a countryfrom the ground up, so we had to
just kind of get our handsdirty.
And a lot of that,unfortunately, first of all, the
the getting our hands dirty,those obligations and
responsibilities that we'vetalked about, a lot of that has
seemed to fade in every singlecommunity, not just one or the
other.
No side can point to the othersaying it's faded just over
(44:45):
there.
Um, but one place that workingtogether across silos hasn't
faded, and I've can say thiswith 100% sincerity, is in the
military family community.
And I'm assuming also in manyways in the veteran community,
you know, I work with people toraise my children that are very
different backgrounds andpolitical views, and their
(45:07):
Instagram posts are reallydifferent from mine in many
ways.
But when it comes down to it andour family members are deployed
and we have to figure out howto, you know, get through a
hurricane coming to hit VirginiaBeach, we are going to work
together.
We are going to make it happen.
And that is something I wish formy fellow Americans to have less
of these silos and moreopportunities in, you know, in
(45:30):
this civic capacity to just workwith people from different
backgrounds and remember what,as I said before, what our
common goals are.
Um because there's way more incommon than there is than there
is uh that's that's differentand divisive.
SPEAKER_01 (45:45):
Yeah, the the high school version of me would
definitely say that civicseducation is boring uh because I
said it and my grades probablyreflect it.
But I think uh to all of ustoday, it's much more relevant
because we're seeing it in reallife.
Uh I think in ways that you knowwe definitely didn't when I was
younger, and it's more so truenow, and I've talked about this
(46:06):
before.
You know, we're seeing whatsingle members of Congress can
do.
We're seeing what dividedCongress uh can result in in
terms of government shutdownsand potential shutdowns.
Um and I think the more we seethat in real life, hopefully the
more interested average citizenswill be in understanding why our
system is the way it is, aswe've discussed.
You know, it's it's designed tomake progress be slow, but it's
(46:29):
designed to make progressbenefit the majority of us.
Uh, and hopefully uh people willlearn from that uh and get
involved and and we can get getthings on a better path.
SPEAKER_02 (46:40):
Awesome.
Awesome.
All great thoughts.
I really appreciate uhespecially Secretary O'Keefe and
Secretary Caldera for taking thetime to share your wisdom with
us.
I know you do a lot of thinkingon our democracy and the world
stage and how you know what'sAmerica's role and how do we how
do we lead in this veryturbulent, chaotic world?
And I think, you know, one thingthat I've gathered from uh this
(47:02):
robust conversation today wasone, you know, any time that
Americans are tearing at eachother, we're really doing our
nation's opponent's job forthem.
And also to remember that theperson on the other side of the
political issue from you is alsoyour fellow American first, and
to keep that in mind so that wekind of stay focused on how do
we debate the issues instead ofhurling attacks at each other's
(47:23):
character, which would helpclean up politics quite a bit.
So, well, thank you both foryour time, and uh, we really,
really appreciate your yourthoughts and wisdom today.
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (47:34):
Thank you.
Thank you, everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (47:36):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you found this podcastepisode interesting or useful,
please share it with the peopleyou know.
This episode was co-hosted byJoe Plunzler, Ellen Gifterson,
and Jeremy Butler.
The audio and video were editedby Cameron King.
Vet Our Democracy is aproduction of We the Veterans
and Military Families, a 501c3not-for-profit, nonpartisan,
(47:58):
pro-democracy organization.
We are focused on promotingpositive and patriotic civic
engagement to strengthenAmerican democracy.
Find out more about us atweTheVeterans.us and follow us
on social media.
Until next time.
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