Bridging Hip-Hop and Visual Effects: The Journey of VFX Guru JR Strickland

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
What can independent filmmakerslearn about visual effects from hip hop music
videos? Find out from VFX supervisorand director JR Strickland on this episode
of VFX for Indies.

(00:31):
Hi everyone, welcome tothe VFX for Indies podcast. I'm your host,
Paul DeNigris, visual effectsartist and filmmaker and the CEO of Foxtrot
X-Ray, a boutique VFX studio.
With me today on the podcast is visual effectsartist, visual effects supervisor,
director, entertainment Renaissance man, JRStrickland, who I've known
for a number of years. Welcome to the podcast, JR.

[JR (00:55):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Congrats on the podcast. Yeah, it's awesome.

[ (00:55):
Thanks. So JR and I met 2015.
So it's a long time ago in industry years.
I was on sabbatical in LosAngeles. And the first freelance gig I took
was working with JR at a littlepost boutique that specialized in music videos.

(01:19):
And we worked on a fun projectfor Ariana Grande that never saw the light
of day, but it was fun nonetheless.

[JR Strickland] (01:24):
Yeah.

[ (01:24):
And as happens on complicated and difficult projects, all of us VFX artists
on that show bonded and havebeen friends ever since. So as you can surmise,
JR kind of lives in the visual,the visual effects side of the music video
business and has also branchedout into directing. So JR, tell us a little

(01:46):
bit about yourself, kind ofhow you got into visual effects and your journey
to working for some of thebigger hip hop artists working today.
Man, it feels like, well, for one, when we met, it was like, you are dope.
I was like, this guy knowswhat he's doing. And a lot of times, sometimes
people don't really know whatthey're doing or don't pay attention to details.
So it's like, I feel like youstood out because it's like, okay, and even

(02:10):
just with the restraints thatwe had, just being able to work within those
constraints. Cause you thinkthat once you get to LA or Hollywood or something
like, things are gonna be likemore prepared and better. And a lot of times
it's the same fixes that you.
I'm sure you tell your students that is likeback in the day. It's like,
it's the same problems that you kind of werefixing from before that actually

(02:31):
ended up making you stronger. But Idigress, right. So when
I started, it's been forever. Like when I was,since I could remember, I just
remember seeing a video camera at like BestBuy and just zooming in and
zooming out and being like, if you zoom intosomething green and then zoom
out of something green, that's like a transitionjust. really, or there will
be miniatures at the grocery store. And I wasjust be fascinated with looking

(02:55):
at the miniature city of the town and be like,this looks like a real town.
So I think it started planting the seeds ofVFX into my brain. And then
at, you know, growing up in the nineties, it'slike eighties babies and then
growing up in the nineties, so then you hadthat boom of just, you know,
Titanic and Twister and. Jurassic Park, likeevery story now that Back to

(03:20):
The Future, even though it doesn't have asmany VFX that people think,
but it's just these stories that can now betold with the VFX. So I kind
of gravitated towards hidden, not necessarilyhidden VFX, but VFX that were
crucial to telling a story. And then therewas a TV show called Movie

(03:41):
Magic. I don't know if you remember Movie Magic.

[Paul DeNig (03:46):
I remember it well!

[J (03:47):
Yes. And they would just say the behind the scenes on how they made all
the movies. So they would goover Hocus Pocus and they'll show how they
do matte painting and the oldschool matte painting, you know, where you
literally paint on the glassand then put the glass in front of the camera.
And now all of a sudden itlooks like the sky or it looks like a set extension.

(04:08):
And then they'll do like multiplicity. So as a kid, I was literally, um,using Premiere figuring out
how to do it. Premiere like 1.5 with the horseon it. It's like since they
age like eight, like literally eight yearsold, learning Premiere, doing
a split screen and having myself on one sideand myself on the other. Then
I'll take a ball and I'll like throw it andI'll catch it on the other side.

[Paul DeNigris] (04:32):
Yeah.

[JR (04:32):
And that was before YouTube obviously. So when I show my family and friends,
they're like, this is crazy.
But even the movie Magic, itwas like, they had one version on Sundays for
kids, and it just, it wasn'teven as advanced. Like I needed the advanced.
I didn't need the watered downmovie magic tricks. I wanted to know like how

(04:53):
the big people really did it.
And then going from that, it just was goingto a bookstore and then reading
magazines, even though I couldn't afford allthe books yet, because they're
like $40, you know. for the crazy behind thescenes VFX books. So I'll just
go there and I'll read them. I'll read theVFX magazines. And that's also
why a lot of times when I can come out andgive hints on how it's done,

(05:17):
because that's really how I learned is by justBTS videos, extended versions
on DVD. Like I didn't want the DVD if it didn'thave the breakdowns. the Blu-Rays, you know what I mean? And it's like really
using that knowledge from allthese other people that have done it. And so

(05:39):
when I went to college, I wentto Columbia College in Chicago. So that's the
art school, of course. Andthen when I moved to LA, it's like I just bulldozed
my way into that music videoproduction company that we were for. And at
first I was just assistantediting, and then me and our friend Max, he
was doing a little bit of VFX,but we really just said, we should just start.

(06:02):
doing the VFX and they weren'treally budgeting for that and they were outsourcing
VFX when they needed it. Butin our free time, we would just tell the directors
like, hey, we can do a skyreplacement. And there was one music video
they had where they shot inthis mansion in LA and it's like a beautiful
music video, but it was theovercast day. Ironically in LA, it was just
was an overcast day. And sowe was like, we could change the sky. And then

(06:23):
he was like, really? And...
I've been flirting with Nuke and doing some Nuke, so I knew that you can do it. And I knew that Nuke was more advancedthan After Effects in terms
of sky replacements with 3D tracking and thingslike that.

Mm-hmm.

[J (06:36):
So we just started doing the VFX on the video. Now that I think about it,
without really even askingthe producers, we kind of just started doing
it. And once you started doingit, then I'm like, oh, this is great. And obviously
the video looked better. Andso from then on, I was like, oh, you guys can
kind of do this. And we juststarted doing more and more effects for each

(06:57):
project. And then ironically,like, I tried to bulldoze my way onto sets
in LA as a PA, but nobody wasreally choosing me. But once I worked with
that company, we showed thatwe can do VFX. The first music video set I
was on out here as officiallywas Ariana Grande's music video, and I was
the VFX supervisor on thatvideo. And it was. crazy to just go from I

(07:22):
wasn't even a PA to just, you'rethe VFX supervisor, here's Ariana Grande, and
then I'm like, I think sheneeds to do this, and the director's like,
go tell her. I'm like, oh,I could talk to her? A year ago I was back
home, you know what I mean,in Chicago in the suburbs, and now I'm like,
on set with Ariana, and asthe VFX supervisor, and it kind of just made

(07:45):
me realize that a lot of thework that I put in leading up to it. once you
get the opportunity, then youcan show it. You know what I mean? So I didn't
have to, I've learned a lotin the role, but I just studied so much, like
so much and was so afraid thatpeople knew what they were doing and I didn't,
that I just like really, reallylearned the craft and learned what to do. And

(08:06):
even though I didn't do somethings before physically, I knew the theories.
And so I would say, okay, ifwe do this, like it would work. And then of
course you have to make itwork, but. And then after that, like it's just
the connections and just buildingfrom there. So now I have my own VFX company,
Nocturnal Effects, and we doa lot of posts and yeah, that's where it is
now.

[Paul DeNi (08:25):
I mean, it's a great lesson for independent filmmakers or filmmakers
coming up or visual effectsartists coming up. It's all about learning
your craft and then puttingyourself in the situations where the opportunities
will come.

[JR (08:37):
Yes, I've learned that the opportunities aren't as hard to get as you
think. It's, I think it's harderto be prepared for the opportunities than it
is to actually get the opportunities.
Now there is a balance that sometimes you couldspend forever getting prepared
and not try to get the opportunities. But whenI've gotten the opportunities,
I've, sometimes I wished I was like, Oh, Iwish I was a little more ready,

(08:58):
uh, for this, you know what I mean? It's like,Oh, now I got to. figure this
out or sometimes there are failures, but it'sbeing prepared for those opportunities.
So I think it's both while you're trying toget those opportunities is
great, but getting really, really good at yourcraft allows you to kill that
opportunity. And then people are very lazy.

(09:21):
They don't wanna keep findingnew people every single time they have a project.
So when you kill that, you'regonna be on the top of the list for the next
project and the next projectand next project. You gotta know how to do
it.

[ (09:33):
Yeah. It's like I always told my students and I actually cribbed this from
one of my former students whoworks in the industry. You know, the secret
is be passionate, be committed.
Don't be a Dick,

[JR Strick (09:42):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Pau (09:42):
right? Be passionate. That that's what makes you want to learn it, right?
Being committed is follow throughand showing up and being the person that when
they say, Hey, how do I dothis? You have the answers and then not being
a Dick is, so they'll callyou back.

Yeah.

[Pau (09:57):
And that's how you build a career.

[ (09:58):
And I think honestly, to that point, it's, um, growing up when I did, it
was a lot of like team, nosleep and it wasn't really taking care of yourself.
It's just grind, get the 10,000hours. And, and now it's, it's more about just
understanding when you aretired, when you are frustrated, like maybe
you don't answer that calland call them back. You know what I mean? Cause

(10:20):
for me, sometimes it's NocturnalEffects in my company for, because I I'm up
all night usually working.
And then sometimes people take advantage ofthat and want you to work all,
all night. And it's like, um, I need to knowthat if I wake up early and
you call me at six in the morning, seven inthe morning for something,
I going to be pissed off. And I'm probablygoing to snap on the client

(10:41):
and I'm probably going to regret it later.
Even though I might be, um,validated into my feelings. It's like the way
I say it might not be right.
So I think there is an art to knowing like,hey, maybe I'm in my feelings,
maybe I'm right, but maybe like, just don'trespond right now, like just
chill because as artists, we get really passionateabout our work. And sometimes
if they give us notes, you know, you're like,this is perfect. I can't believe.

(11:03):
And sometimes you got to kind of chill andtake a step back and say, okay,
what are they, what are they really tryingto say and how can I communicate
this a little bit better. Have you, have youexperienced that with People
saying that they don't like notes or they don'twant notes, why do they get
notes? And it should just be their way. Theyshould have the creative freedom
as a director or artist.

(11:25):
Yeah, I mean, obviously teachingcollege for 20 years, I encountered a lot of
students who would who wouldpush back on notes, right?

Yeah, yeah.

[P (11:33):
And then when they maybe got their first opportunity in the industry, they'd
call me up and go, Hey, Paul,they're killing me with notes. What? How do
you manage it? And my response is always every note is an opportunity to learn.
Right.
And sometimes what you learnis I never want to work for this client again.

[ (11:52):
Yeah, exactly. And it's like, there's, it's not yours. Like, I think sometimes
Yeah, exactly. And it's like,there's, it's not yours. Like, I think sometimes
we think it's ours and you'rehired, you know, but whoever's paying for the
project is theirs. I rememberone group, there was some younger people that
said, wow, they should justlisten to me and it should be whatever I say.
And it's like, if I'm payingmoney, I get a say in how it is. I mean, if

(12:17):
you want to do something howyou want it, then you just make it yourself.
Nobody's stopping you frommaking whatever you want to make. But if somebody's
paying you a budget, even ifit's whether it's a hundred dollars, but whether
it's literally. $500 becausethis is all that artists has for a project
and you're working your wayup, that's, that's a lot of money for that

(12:41):
artists to spend $500 of theirown money to something and to not. let them
have a say in the result isjust crazy. That doesn't even make sense. So
you got to think about it'stheirs and they're paying for it and they're
allowed to give feedback. Youknow what I mean? And the more you can kind

(13:03):
of do it sometimes, once youstart doing it, you're like, oh, they might,
they kind of would write some,sometimes they're actually right or make a
good point.

[P (13:11):
Yeah, sometimes client notes are great. And sometimes they're seeing something
that you're not seeing. Andyou know, you do as a VFX artist, you do get tunnel vision.
You know, I always joke becauseI'm not only, you know, the VFX supervisor
for my company, but I'm alsoa compositor. And I always joke that my, the
guys that work for me, their,their shots get approved all the time by the
client and mine get nitpickedand it's, and I'm like, that's because they

(13:35):
don't, I don't have me nitpickingmy own shots.

[JR (13:37):
Aw, yeah, when your name's on the line and you gotta do it, yeah,

[Pa (13:42):
So I'm nitpicking my team's shots. And so by the time clients sees it,
they've already gone three,four revs before I'm happy with it. Whereas
all these notes and I'm like,ah, okay.

[JR (13:58):
not good. And then I'll see it. Like once it's released, I'm like, oh,
that looked kind of nice.

Yeah.
Like, but when you're in criticalmode too, it's also hard because you're in
analyze, try to find the problem.
So when you're getting the shots from yourcompositors, or artists, I
mean, other artists, you're in, let me tryto find out what's wrong mode.
Cause that's when you can do something aboutit. But then once it's out
and you're in just like, entertainment mode.

(14:24):
That's like a different experience.
So I think it's balancing that too, whenat it and it's a totality.
Like nobody's really looking at this pixelon the right. They're really
focused over here. Like it's the right amountof lens blur. It's okay. Like
it's okay if it doesn't have the correct bokehbloom on it, like just get it

(14:46):
out, it's fine.

[ (14:50):
Yeah. I mean, ultimately what we do is we provide a service. It's a service
industry, right?

Yes.

[Pau (14:54):
VFX is yes, it's artistry, but ultimately we are serving
the client, right? Whether it's an independentfilmmaker, a studio, a TV show,
a musical artist, we are a service industryperiod, right?

[J (15:11):
And getting your ego out the way. It's like,
because sometimes what I'lltell artists, I'll literally be on the phone
with the artists and I'll tellthem, because sometimes people will say, oh
artists give all these notesand blah, blah. And they're really annoyed.
And so when I talk to the artists,I tell them, my job is to like make sure you
look as good as possible. Sojust know if I say anything, it's because I'm

(15:34):
trying to make you look asgood as possible. And usually they respond
to that. They're like, I dowant to look as good as possible. And I don't
want you to get killed in theYouTube comments. I don't want somebody in
the comments to say, oh, theylook funny here, or this looks bad, and then
it's crazy. So I've noticedjust being upfront with the artist about your
intentions, because if you'recoming to them saying, I'm making this note

(15:56):
because I think it's better,but if you're like, I think this makes you
look really good. Now, if youwant to change it, like... whatever, but they
tend to trust you, becauseI do a lot of editing too, and they tend to
trust you more when your intentionsare, I'm serving the song and I'm serving you,

(16:17):
or if it's a narrative, likeI'm just trying to serve the story, I'm trying
to stay back from it. And theyrespond to that pretty well.

[Pa (16:24):
Right, yeah, to me the best client relationships are the ones where it's
a partnership. And a lot oftimes as VFX artists, we do have to educate
them. Not only do we have toeducate them on what's possible, like you were
talking about, hey, I can replacethis guy, we can fix this thing in post. But
sometimes you have to educatethem like they want a certain thing. And you're
like, okay, fire doesn't movelike that,

Yes.

[Pau (16:44):
or whatever, right? You're having to educate them. Okay, let's figure
out how we can get there andnot break your vision. but also not hang me
out there as a VFX artist whodoesn't know what he's doing.

[JR (16:58):
I mean I had a discussion, there's a music video I did, and in the video
there's a comp, but the sunis setting.

Mm-hmm.
So because the sun is setting,the shadows are, so the sun's setting behind
a mountain. So I tell a lotof people, what we do is really physics. You've
really got to understand physicsto be a good VFX artist, especially like compositor,
or in any part of VFX, youreally got to understand physics. And so the

(17:28):
sun is setting behind the mountainto the point where I used to take where the
lens flare was gone from thesun. So I can add it on my end and everything
was in shadow. So now the talentis completely backlit, right? But there's no
shadow because there's no shadowinside of a shadow. Can't have it. Can't have

(17:53):
another shadow in a shadow.
So I was. So they were like, oh, it's missinga shadow. And I'm like, no,
there's no shadow physically. And in theirmind, they're thinking it should
be. And they're like, well, you should kindof, and I'm like, no, because
I'm using references of other things in theframe. So like, you see the
tree over there, there's no shadow. You seethe wall over there, there's

(18:13):
no shadow. So now if this has a shadow, it'snot going to be right. And
it's kind of annoying because this is stillthe DP. So they understand
lights.
And anybody else might justsuccumb to whatever they say because they're
the DP. But you're also theexpert in what you do. And it's like, I know

(18:37):
this isn't right because thereis no shadow. There's a reflection. And then
when you play it, I don't thinkanybody's ever said there is no shadow there.
So that goes back into justunderstanding people are looking for certain
things and what you think itis, isn't always what it really is. I think

(18:59):
I had this revelation whenI was, you know, when you start working on
3D stuff, then when you gointo real world, you start looking at everything
that looks like 3D to you.
Like, is the sky real? Are these treesdraw a house and a tree or
a kid draws a house and a tree, the tree ispretty much the same size as
the house. Like the people are pretty muchthe same size as the house.

(19:19):
and the tree. So in your mind, what you'redrawing isn't really what it
is in reality. And that's why you got to basestuff off of real world references.
Because if you really go outside and look ata tree, it's a lot taller than
a house. So if you're just creating this stuffbased off of what you think
and not what the real world is, that's whenit starts looking a little.

(19:42):
You know what I mean? Like, have you experiencedthat?
Absolutely, real world referenceis one of the best tools that we have as a visual
effects artist, right? I always,always talk about this. A lot of times we do
a lot of muzzle flashes, right?
We do a lot of muzzle flashes, a lot of shellcasing injections because we
do a lot of action movies. Okay, I still, every time we start a new one, I look at what weapons are the actorscarrying, go to YouTube, somebody

(20:10):
has filmed themselves shooting that weapon. Let's look at what the muzzle flash does, what smoke does,how the shell casing injects,
even though in my mind, I know this stuff backto front.

Right.

[P (20:22):
I never want to be inventing it from, from my imagination. I always want to go back to reality, you know? Um, and that applies to everything
that we do.

[JR (20:31):
And then you can sweeten it and make it better, but it's based off that
reality that really helps sellit. But.
Right, yeah. You know, so it's,because like you said, your imagination and
your, the way our memorieswork, right? We can think we remember something
perfectly, but the more wethink about it, the more we do it, the more
we get into that sort of complacency.
And then before you know it, we've driftedall the way away from reality.

(20:53):
And somebody goes, hey, what is this? And you'relike, but that's what it really
looks like. And then they show you a pictureand you go, oh, okay, sorry.
Yeah, I mean, it's like that with saturation, I feel like when you're doing saturation ona sky, it's like
all over the place. And then when you make it very, very subtle, you're like, oh, this looks better.
But you just hear blue. And so you just make it blue.
And it's like, what, what type of blue and how blue is it?

(21:20):
And then even your references are your references on Google from a, from a camera that's a XLRwith heavy, you know, or is it from another film or is it from
Like what are your references coming from?
So, or, but I think references within the frameis usually a really good help and a really good indicator.
So it's like, just don't throw that sky in thereand have it super saturated.

(21:41):
And then somebody has a red dress on that's not saturatedand it's gonna pop off. So it's using other clues within the frame too
to make it look good.

So, you know, I know we've talked about this on a couple of
projects, like on the ArianaGrande project, and then we also worked on
Find Me for the rapper Buddy, which was all green screen, the flying car, which was a blast. It was totally fun, especially to see the behindthe scenes footage or to see
the plates where they have the car on thisgiant green rotisserie and
the grips are rotating and stuff.

(22:13):
Lot of fun. Were you VFX supervisoron that set?
Yeah, I was on the set. Luckily, they hitme up. That was one of those who hit me up
early, which I always love.
So I went to talk to them early about it. Therewas a talk where we almost
did a CG car. Literally, the video is the entirevideo. He is in a car that
is flying through the air, through the clouds.

(22:38):
And you did an awesome jobof comping that. It was such a cool project
to work on because I feel likemore projects since then have used that idea,
maybe not from that, but justmaybe inspired by it, maybe not. But it felt
like at the time that was somethingthat really hasn't been done like that before.
And so being the VFX supervisorand the director, Andy Hines, which is really

(23:02):
good, it was really awesome.
And, um, the producer, Jeff, he, they reallykind of trust, they really
trusted me and Andy did a really good job ofstoryboarding, like just
everything, like not necessarily storyboarding,but afterwards he gave me a
PDF with the direction of the clouds, wherethey go and all this. So being
on set really helped. And then, um, Kavikawho I, who works with me sometimes

(23:27):
he came with me on set and it's, it was goodto have him too, just in case
I was second guessing myself with some of thestuff. So I'll talk it over
with him. He was like, no, yeah, that's right.
That's, you know, that's. SoVFX on that was, I knew that we needed. I
knew this sounds like a nukeplug, but I knew we needed nuke for that because

(23:48):
of what was asked for us. Andthen also sometimes these budgets can get tight
with these music videos. Soyou still want it to look as cinematic as possible.
And it's like, how can we makethat on this? But they literally took the car,
they gutted the car so it wasreally light and they just spun it and then
they had them on wires. I mean,wire removal alone, it's probably a task for

(24:08):
a video like that.
But That video I really enjoybecause people always reference that video
for me. They're like, you didthe Buddy... I've seen treatments people give
me with that video as a referencein the treatments that they want. So that was,
what was your experience onthat?

[Paul DeN (24:24):
Oh, that was great. I really enjoyed that. Clips from that were on
my reel for a long time,because we got to, again, not
to turn this into a plug for Nuke, but we gotto do some cool particle-based
clouds. And Kavika gave me the cloud sprites

Yeah.

[P (24:43):
of the different clouds that he had generated in 3D. And then I was able
to put them in a particle systemand build. build a Cloudscape that was instantly
customizable, and you couldjust change one number, and it would just change
the way the clouds were laidout, and stuff like that

Oh no, the clouds were done by my

[J (25:00):
Yeah, Abubakar, he did a lot of the Houdini. Yeah, you're right.
That's right. This is a while back, so it's alittle fuzzy.

[JR (25:06):
no, but you're right. Yeah, because we combined the Houdini with clouds
with this. And it was a teameffort.

Mm-hmm.
I look at it now and I'm like,man, there's more stuff that I wish we could
have done. But again, thatwas a few years ago. So.

[Pa (25:22):
Yeah, it's a few years ago.
And time and budget being what they are, there'salways room to improve.

Yeah.
For the most part, it was shotgreat.
Yes.

[Pa (25:32):
The green screen was always beautifully saturated and lit. We had very
little problem pulling keys.
The biggest issues were it's a car. It's coveredwith chrome and reflective
surfaces.

Oh yeah.

[P (25:44):
But what are you going to do there? Like there's nothing you can do about
it other than like cover thecar and dulling spray, but then you start to
lose the, lose the

Right.

[Pau (25:51):
feel of it being glass and metal.
And I remember too, just havingto give you notes and it's like, I respect
your work and I respect thatyou took the notes too because it's like I'm
seeing all this, like everything,you know, I'm listening
to the director and I'm seeingthings that you're probably not seeing. So
I learned on that project toothat even if you're an expert and you hire

(26:13):
experts, you still got to belike, okay, but this and then because you were
able to do that, it just madeit work. Yeah, me too.

[P (26:22):
it's I mean, again, it's you get tunnel vision as an artist, right? The
longer you look at a shot, either the better it looks or the worse it looks. Right. Thelonger you look at a shot,
the more you're like, I love this. This isthe best shot I've ever done.
And then you send it to the client and they'relike, what? OK, no, this

But that also taught me though, I was doing
a lot of the comps myself. And I think thatwas probably the first project
that I really was like, let me get anothercomp artist in here. And I
felt just as good as if I did it. I think thatwas the fear. I think growing
up doing all this stuff yourself, you get thedopamine rush of I did this
myself. Or parents would say, you did thisall yourself? And you're like,

(27:02):
yeah. And so what that does is it kind of createsa system in your mind where
you equate doing it yourself with being goodand being proud. And that's
something I'm still trying to get over. It'slike therapy has helped me
with that. So like I'm, I get excited becauseI did it myself, but at this
stage, nobody really cares if you did it yourself.

(27:24):
They just cares if it looksgood. And so because I was able to like let
go of that and not just haveto say, Oh, I did this. It's like, no, Paul
did it and we did it. And itlooks, you know, like Paul did the comp and
we did this, which means Istill have like pride in that. You know

[Paul DeNigris (27:44):
Yeah, absolutely

[JR Strickland (27:44):
what I mean? I'm trying to get better at that.
Cause I was so used to trying to do everythingmyself. And that is not how
you're able to grow. You gotto get this team around you.
And you say, get other eyes on it. And thenwith tight deadlines, like
I can do some, I think then I did some of thecomps. I think I did a couple
of comps.
I think in the 11th hour, therewere a couple of shots that got added and you

(28:06):
picked them up.
Yeah to, just to help, help me becausewe were, we were, we were right up against
the deadline.

Oh man, it was, it was, it was, and
I remember too, I think I tell people, oh,I remember now, cause there
was a, a weekend and then they were tryingto crush us on the weekend.
And he was like, oh man, I got to, and I waslike, don't worry about it,
we'll figure it out. And then he was like,man, people don't really say
that. You remember that? You're like, peopledon't really say it like, oh, take your time. But I think when you, when you've been in that situation,

Yeah.

[JR (28:37):
you have some sympathy and empathy. And I think because I said that, you
was like, man, let me just,I'm gonna just stay up and do it and just like...
And it ends up working out.
But I think when things aren't organized, it'sup to the person that's planning
it. Like that's your fault. That's not theartist's fault, like the compositor
or whatever. It's not their fault that you'renot organized. You know what

(28:58):
I mean? If things are coming up against thedeadline, I get it. Sometimes
you can't avoid it. But for the most part,you can't let other people's.
mismanagement of situations like make you feelbad for you having boundaries.
Cause they're not doing the, they're not doingthe actual work. They're just
saying stuff. They're like giving the notesand then they're living their

(29:18):
lives. And then you're spending 10 hours doingthat note. You know what I
mean? And you got to, and also I feel likeif you don't have a clean mind
and you're not refreshed, it takes longer andit looks bad. It doesn’t even look better. You can tell that you were tired when you did it. If you just

(29:38):
take a break and come backto it, you'll actually do it faster and better.

[Pa (29:41):
Yeah. I mean, VFX is a team sport, you know,
right. And it's, and, and asa fellow entrepreneur, I know you know this,
right. It's, it's like, it'sre... you, it's really easy to get into the, I
can't delegate this. I haveto do this part myself kind of trap. I do it
all the time and people arealways

Yeah.

[Pa (29:58):
telling me, no, you need to delegate that. You're right. It's your business
is not going to grow if you'retrying to do it all,

Yeah.

[Pau (30:04):
you know, and it's part of the, it's just part of the curse of entrepreneurship,
right? We get into this, we,you started Nocturnal. I started Foxtrot. because
we love what we do and we wantto do it for ourselves. And so, you know, that
becomes lots of sleepless nightsand lots of, you know, agonizing over pixels
and things like that

Yeah.

[Pau (30:21):
and learning how to let go and learning how to go, okay, I think I need
to increase my team. I thinkI need to call somebody else in another expert
that, you know, to, to balance me.
Yeah, for sure. But it is a goodoption though, if it doesn't look how you want
it to look to be able to belike, all right, well, let me just fix it real
quick. And it's fun.

[Paul (30:38):
Yeah, there’s always that

[JR (30:40):
fun. It's just, you can't, it's not sustainable for every single project,
especially the ones you wannamake sure you get right. It's just kind of
good to have other people on it.
Yeah. And when you have a client,whether it, you know, in that case, it was
you, you were, you made it,you didn't, you never made it feel like you
have to fix this, Paul. Thisis your right. It was, it was, okay, we, we

(31:02):
have to do this. Right. Itwas a difference between, between saying I
statements and you statementsversus we statements. Right.
It's the, it's the, uh, we'rein this together. Let's fix this. Right.

yeah.

[P (31:14):
And you were like, what? How can I, what can I do to help you with this?
I was like, I need you to takethis shot because I don't, I just, I'm out
of time and out of bandwidthon it. Um, as opposed to on bigger projects
with bigger clients, it becomesvery much the, um, employer-employee relationship.
And that's hard. That's hardsometimes because it, because it is, it does

(31:35):
sometimes feel like. I'm goingto give you a note and I don't care that it's
going to take 36 hoursout of your life to work on that
note. I just, I need it Monday morning. Right.
Whereas. When, when you, whenthere's an understanding that like, this is
a team sport, we're in thistogether. If I fail, you fail. If you fail,
there together rather than,you know, making it adversarial.

[ (31:56):
And realistically knowing how long this stuff takes and what to spend the
time on. It's like, do we wantto spend all this time on this or do you want
to spend time on this? AndI remember, I think there was stuff that you
mentioned. It was like, look,and it's like, what do you need to just speaking
up? Like, what do you need?
You know, and which are the priorities? Youknow, is this, is this the
money shot or is this a quicker shot? Likewhere are our priorities and

(32:18):
what do you need? And I feel like. That's probablyone of the biggest things because
you could spend so much time on shot numberone and never get to shot 50.
It's like,

Mm-hmm.

[J (32:29):
yo, the whole video was shot on a green screen. So we have to prioritize.
Like maybe we want this, maybethe reflections, we want this, but that's like
on the priority list, that'slike on the bottom.
You know what I mean? It'smore important
And I know we did have to, thereare certain shots in that video that clouds

(32:49):
aren't reflected in the glassor the Chrome and they should

Yeah.

[P (32:52):
be, and they would be if you were really flying that car up, you know, that
Buick or whatever up in the sky.
But the interesting thing aboutthat is, I think on the first watch, you're
not even watching for that,because you're like, wait, he's dancing on
top of a car? It's only onour watch over and over. I'm like, oh man,
we should do a 3D car and then3D, but then that would have been insane.

[Pau (33:10):
Yeah. And you know, and so much of it like it's his it's I think the reason
a lot of people, because Icheck in on that video once in a while and
a lot of people still comeback to it and like, well, this is one of my
favorite videos of all time.
It's him. It's his performance. He's he's

Oh yeah.

[P (33:28):
all in for that concept. And just like, he's totally vibing the way he's
like surfing on the car andstuff like that.

Right.

[Pa (33:34):
He's selling the reality of it, which we could do our job, you know, perfectly
100% perfect. And if he's notselling the reality of the whole The whole
video fell. So again, it's,it's a team sport.

Right.

Yeah.
And like I said, the director,I love Andy Hines. He, and the way he did it
was just so clever and theway they edit it. So yeah,
Yeah.

[JR (33:50):
I can talk about that video all day.
Well, let's actually talk aboutsome of your more recent projects that you've
been both VFX supervisor anddirector on. So you sent me a list of them.
I'm gonna let you pick whichone we're gonna talk about first.

[JR (34:09):
Um, let's see. I feel like we'll talk about the Kobe with the Fro video.
So Kyle Scrooby, he's a, he'sa good friend of mine too. And he had this
idea for, he had a song calledKobe with the Fro and was like, well, what
if we do, he just says, he,he just feels like Kobe Bryant when he played
with the Lakers and had theAfro. I'm like, well, let's put you in the

(34:29):
middle of Staples center. AndI don't know why I said that, but I think it's
always been my dream to dolike a basketball, like CG basketball kind
of arena court. So the entirevideo, he's just performing in the Staples
Center, but we shot it allon the green screen. And that took way longer
than I thought it was goingto take. But I think part of it, I'll tell

(34:53):
you the lessons that I learned.
The lessons I learned is I didn't need to buildthe entire, like, every seat.
Like, my OCD kicked in, and I was looking atmaps of the Staples Center,
and I was counting the number of seats in eachrow. in the hundred level and
most of it is crushed to black. And I did notneed to have like 10 seats
in row five. Like I, just the OCDness kickin to where I, by the end I

(35:21):
learned how to prioritize and what to cheat.
But at the beginning, my thoughtprocess was build the entire thing and then
you have complete control onwhere you put the camera. And I would never
do that again. It'slike, what does the camera
see? And then build for that. Like for instance,even the banners, I think going

(35:44):
in, I was like, I'm gonna make the banners,texture the banners, but they're
all the way in the background, you know? Andas I was going on, I said,
okay, well the banners, these should just bea PNG. Just grab a PNG, just
put it on a card, and then put it up and throwa spotlight on it. You know,
and so, but shooting that green screen, weshot it with a jib, the camera

(36:06):
movements. And I feel like part of me wantedto look photo real and I was
in this weird space of like, does it look photoreal? Does it look video gamey?
And he was in my head a lot saying, JR, it'sgonna look good. Like whatever
you're doing is gonna look good. I'm sure you'rejust in your head. I'm like,
no, it's gotta look better, but is this theright amount of grain? Is this
the shadow? So, but I'm really proud of howthat project. uh turned out

(36:28):
it's just sometimes you have like you say youhave to take a step back and
then just watch it and you say oh okay yeahthis is kind of dope

[Paul (36:38):
Yeah, it is pretty dope.

yeah what were your thoughts when you watched it?
I thought it was great. I mean,you know, at I knew, I knew going into it,
obviously, that the StaplesCenter was VFX. But I also,
you know, after a few shots,I stopped going, I stopped looking at it and
trying to trying to see whatyou did. And then I was just like, wow, this
just looks great. Because Iknow, I'm again, I'm sure you were up against

(37:01):
it time and money wise. And[JR Strickland]: Yeah.
it looks amazing. It's likethe camera movement and his integration and
his reflection in the floorand all of that stuff. It just, yeah, is it
reality? No, is it music videoheightened stylized reality? Yes, and does
it work? Absolutely.

[JR (37:18):
Yeah, that's what I learned too, is like sometimes as an artist, because
I went down this journey ofstudying painters before, I'm like, I don't
get why Picasso, like, it doesn'tlook real. Why are people so enamored with
it? And when I started doingthe research, I learned that, you know, the
impression is, it's like, it'show you, how it makes you feel a lot of times,

(37:39):
not necessarily if it's realor not. Like what we're seeing with the references,
those a lot of times are forphotorealistic type of things, but also like,
also the feeling that you'regoing for, how does it make you feel? So whether
he is or isn't, it's like,we're doing this because we have freedom to
make it feel a certain way.
You're doing this painting, not necessarilyto make it look exactly like

(38:00):
the person, but to capture the essence or thefeeling of what you're doing.
So with that project, I wish I went more intoit. It's just the feeling of
him being here. And by default, it's gonnalook pretty, like pretty real.
Like it's not gonna look so corny, but it'smore about the feeling of this.
Yeah.

(38:25):
Yeah.

[P (38:25):
I've mentioned this a couple of times and you mentioned a couple of times
budgets and schedules and thingslike that. And, you know, I'm a little older
than you, but we both kindof, kind of came up during the heyday of MTV
when, you know, Michael Jacksonand bigger acts would spend millions
and millions of dollars onmusic videos and, you know, the premiere of
something like Thriller wasan event and, you know, those days are over, right?

(38:51):
videos are not in the milliondollars, millions of dollars range anymore.
Uh, and to me that that's,you know, the, again, the name of the podcast
is VFX for Indies,

Yeah.
indie filmmaking, music videos,very much kind of in that same mode of we,
we have to make the most outof every dollar because there aren't a lot
of them and we have to makethe most out of every second of shoot time
because we don't have a lotof days.
Yeah.

[P (39:16):
Um, you know, what, um, Talk about some maybe some strategies like going
into a video like Kobe withthe fro What are some strategies that you're
using? Upfront maybe in pre-productionor during production where you're keeping that
in mind like I don't have infinitemoney to burn I don't have infinite time to
spend on this. So how can Imaximize the effect that I'm getting for my

(39:38):
client?

[JR (39:39):
Well, the most frustrating part is when they waste money. Like I get that
you don't have money, but thenthey waste money because they don't have the
experts advising them. LikeI don't wanna do extra VFX just to do it. So
sometimes I would tell them,this is better done practically. It's like
really being able to work witheverybody and work with the set decorator.

(40:01):
or production designer and,or at least the producer and director and say,
no, this should be practical.
Like there's no reason why we should buildthis. It's going to kill the
budget. I'd rather spend that on somethingelse. So it's not always just
fighting for you to do more is saying, like,because it's almost the opposite.
Some things that they think is hard, isn'treally hard. And some things

(40:23):
they think is easy is actually really, reallyhard to do. And that's going
to kill your budget. So I feel like it's withthe, with the Kobe video, I
just knew if it's going to be green screen,what it couldn't be is a 2D
card. It had to be, we see him in three dimensions.
So that had to be a jib, butwe had to have camera moving as if we were

(40:48):
there. You know what I mean?
So the budget goes towards the green screenand making sure the green screen
is high enough that we can get low angles withouthim clipping on the ceiling.
Cause a lot of these green screen places inLA, you can't get low angles
because then you'll see this ceiling. So it'salso, we got a green screen
spot that like it went over his head so wecan get the low angles. And

(41:08):
so that's where it went. And then just makingsure that you have a good team
of people that track it, you know, I had agood team of people that track
the cameras because like you said, we loveto do this. So you think that,
oh, I can track all the shots and I can rollto all, and it's like, okay.
No, let's spend time doing the other stuffand let's get, I feel like

(41:30):
I'm more inclined to composite. If I get peopledoing some of the other stuff,
it makes the compiling a little easier, butthe compositing becomes really
hard when you still have to track all the shotsand you still have to key all
the shots and you still have to, so even if,you know, whatever your budget
is, or if you're indie or you can get somefriends, just, you can do it,
but just outsource a little bit of it so thatyou can. strictly spend your

(41:55):
time on the comp. Cause I think a project likethat, because I can't, I think
I would probably would have been a jerk towhoever comped it because I
would have been like, I can do this or I wantedto look, it's like saying what
I know, I'm saying it twice when I could justpress the button. You know
what I mean? So when it gets to that point,it's quicker if I do that,
but it's not quicker if I Roto every shot.

(42:18):
And it's not quicker if I,you know, key every shot. And it's not quicker if I track every shot.

[Pa (42:25):
Well, let's, so that that's post stuff. Let's rewind back to you're getting
ready to do this shoot.

Mm-hmm.

[Pa (42:32):
Right. And Cal and his team are going into it, asking you, how do we, how
do we achieve this on the,on the budget that we've got? So what are some,
as direct, as both directorand VFX supervisor, like how, what are some
techniques or some things thatyou're, you're maybe saying, okay, we have
to do, we have to do storyboards.
We have to plan this. What are some thingsthat you're doing to maximize

(42:54):
that budget so that you're not making mistakesduring production that ripple
down into bigger problems in post?

[J (43:02):
Well, with that one, luckily I produced it too. So I had an advantage where
the producer agreed with meand Cal does a really good
job of letting the artist be an artist. LikeCal, yeah, now that you're
saying it, it's like, Cal is really much like,I trust you, whatever you think
I need to do, I would do. Like I'm literallytelling him, okay, lay on the

(43:22):
floor and we're going to put you on the, he'slike, all right. And he, and
he, and he does it and he trusts you. So thatopens it up to just know that.
And the reason it does tie into post becauseyou're thinking about the post
while you're doing the pre, you know what Imean? So I'm thinking, okay,
what's going to save us here? A lot of it iswe're going to shoot it all

(43:45):
on green screen. So we're not having a crazylocations. And then the parts
where he's in a locker room, we shot that onanother side of the building.
And, um, and just understanding like the editing.
there's going to be some partsthat I'm going to edit together and cut it
together. So let me make surethat I get these long sweeping shots. It's
like the more you do it, themore you know what to shoot. So, you know,

(44:09):
okay, let me get these longsweeping shots because I can cut between those.
And if I were to do it again,I will also understand this. There's a lot
of value in the static shots.
I thought that I would have to have everythingmoving to keep the energy and
keep it going. But some of the good shots arejust where it is static. And
then it's a slow push in, or it is just a lowangle and it's whatever. So
I think the green screen definitely saved us,but also building this before

(44:33):
we shot it, building the stadium before weshot it and kind of playing
it. It wasn't like an after the fact or afterthought.
So it's kind of working inconjunction with each other on not necessarily
previs. but just knowing thatthis is the plan, this is what we're gonna
do, these are the team thatwe're gonna have and just having that in place

(44:55):
will come down a pipeline.
But that project went way longer than it wassupposed to. It went, I shot
way past the deadline. And I think that wasbecause I was just in my head,
but also I was learning some things along theway. When you haven't done
something before, it's like a learning curve.

Absolutely.

[J (45:15):
I mean, even just the render farm, you know, that was. Now it would have
probably been Unreal Engine,but it was just figuring out
what render farm works best and how much isthat going to cost and trying
to budget. Because when you're doing the renderfarm, for those who don't know,
it's just, you're not just using your machine,you're using multiple machines
through the internet to render your frames.

(45:38):
And you don't know how muchit's going to cost until it's done rendering.
And so you're trying to budgetthis and you're like, I don't even know how
much this is going to cost,but there's no way. I can do this. That's why
real-time rendering is so exciting,because now it probably would have been...

(45:59):
Like, you're probably thinkingabout it too, how you would do it now.

Mm-hmm.

[JR (46:02):
The stadium would have been built in Unreal, and it at least would have
been comped live so I couldsee through the camera what it's gonna look like

[ (46:10):
that video would be a perfect candidate for virtual production.

Yeah.

[ (46:14):
Big, big LED wall, LED floor, fly in a

Or not even LED
panel for the LED ceiling, and thenthe camera can move any way you want. And the
Unreal Engine model just isin the background. And yeah,
But even if it’s not the LED, even if it's just the real-time key, even if it's just the real-timekey and you see the camera,
but then you'll have to just, then I wouldhave a 3D character, I would
reanimate the 3D character to get the contactswith the floor and the shadow.

[Pau (46:46):
Well, some stages now have the ability to build an LED floor so you could actually display.
Really? I gotta check that out.

[ (46:56):
there's still always cleanup, there's seams, things like that, but

Yeah.

[Pa (47:00):
it's pretty amazing. I went to NAB earlier this year and virtual production
was in literally every booth.
Everybody was showing some sort of virtual production

Oh wow.

[ (47:12):
solution. you know, for doing all kinds of neat stuff. And that's
just that it's a lot of it'sfor broadcast. What
I saw, obviously, the NationalAssociation of Broadcasters, but like the ability
for two artists, one on eitherside of the country to be able to appear in
the same virtual set inreal time and interact with
each other as if they're in the same space.

(47:33):
Like, we're going to see allof that sort of stuff move into the music video
space for sure.

[J (47:39):
Yeah, my advice is if you're coming up right now, is to really learn Unreal.
I mean, it's free, so reallyno excuse. But I think that the more you can
be good.

[P (47:56):
Yeah, right on. Why don't we move on to ZTFO, Big Sean.

[J (48:01):
Yeah, so that one was really small, man. We had a crew of five people, and
we shot it at his house. Andthe beautiful thing about that is, like I said,
the director, he really trustsme. Like he trusts me, I'm involved early on,
and he says, hey, I got thisidea, because we worked together on multiple

(48:21):
Big Sean videos, and he said,I got this idea. I want Big Sean. uh floating
uh throughout the whole videobecause it's about him being zen he's like
i want him floating at differentparts of his house well that's cool and he's
like and i wanted to be onelike feel like one take it's like okay and
he's like and um we didn'thave a steady cam we just it was handheld so

(48:46):
i'm like okay and then he'slike and then at one point i want him floating
next to each other well nextto himself on the couch i'm like Okay, this
is getting more and more complex.
And I tell somebody the other day, like, whenyou're starting off a lot of
our job, we can Google or look up, right? Soit's TV replacement. And you're
like, oh, how do I do a TV replacement? Howdo I do a phone replacement,

(49:07):
screen place, whatever, right? Then as youascend, it's stuff that you
can't Google. It's stuff that you, they'rehiring you to figure out how
to do it. And that's when you got to use thetool. So like what the buddy
is like, I want him flying through the sky.
I can't just be like, how doyou make somebody fly in the sky dancing on

(49:28):
top of a car? You start puttingthe tool and someone like, I want him floating.
It's like, how do you makerapper float in that? You can't do that.
So now, and then they saidit like, and then the person I was saying it
to said, like, yeah, you be,now they Google you. They, there's a YouTube

(49:52):
video of somebody breakingdown how they think I did it. Yeah, and I,
cause I was looking on YouTubeand there's like how they did Big Sean. And
now there's a precedence for it.

Mm-hmm.

[ (50:02):
And in theory, you could kind of figure it out, but it's like, you're hired,
like when you're coming up,you're hired to be the one to figure it out,
figure out how to do it. Andso, It's those theories and understanding physics
and understanding that becausethe crew was so small, it was just me, the
director, DP, I think likea grip, like and a best boy. And then like

(50:27):
Big Sean’s like barber andthat was it. And so it felt really indie and
it felt like college. The onlydifference was we actually were like, when
I was in college, we were stillfiguring it out. and I thought it was gonna
look good. And then I lookat the footage like, this don't look like what
I thought it was gonna be.
This one, it was just people that was at thetop of the games now shooting

(50:50):
it like it is an indie thing. And I think thatthat's why it worked. But the
cool thing about working on some of these projectsis that you, instead of just
seeing you and your friends, you're seeinglike one of the biggest artists
in the world on your computer, but it's thesame, it's the same feeling.
of before. So some of the technical parts ofthat video, I made sure that

(51:14):
when we shot him, like he's floating over hispool, but adjacent to his pool,
there's grass. And so we shot equal distance.
I made sure we shot equal distanceso that his, the lens distortion of his body,
like the Z depth of his bodyis equivalent. We didn't take a closeup of
him and then put it back overthe pool. Cause then even the subtle like distance

(51:40):
from his nose to his ear wouldbe off. So we shot the over the pool, measured
where he would be over thepool, and then went over the grass, measured
where it would be, and thenput them on a green apple box. And that way,
I'm just literally copyingon top of each other and then adding back the
shake. Then there's subtlethings like the birds in the sky is stock footage

(52:04):
that I comped into it. So itstarts with these eagles in the sky, and then
you come down, then I did subtlesky replacement that you can't see. And it's
like all those little kindof tweaks. Then we had the lizard shot, then
the hummingbird. The hummingbirdwas interesting because we pan over, there's
a hummingbird sniffing a flower.
And we're, at first I'm like, this should be3D, but then quickly realized

(52:25):
that should be stock. So it's a stock footageof a hummingbird, and I roto
the wings, but it goes so fast and there'sso much blur that it actually
like works. You know what I mean? So it's thingslike that. Then when you go
inside the house, I got to release the breakdown.
I never released a breakdown.
When you go inside the house, the house iscompletely CG inside.

(52:48):
So this is actual house. Andthen the only way to do it, because the camera
was moving like crazy, andhe has really reflective floors. So if the
floors were not reflective,I could have painted it out. If it was
carpet or anything else, itcould have probably been painted up. but because

(53:09):
it was hardwood floors, youhave the reflection of the light on the floor.
And as you move in 3D space,the reflection angle changes. So there's no way to paint that out. So.

[Pa (53:21):
So you had him sitting like on a green apple box and

[JR Strickla (53:23):
green apple boxes.
filmed it practically and then thefinal comp is he's the only real thing in the
in the shot and you've replacedthe entire background with the CG replica of
his house?

Yes,
How did you guys manage the CG replica? Did you did you do...
Well, I took a

[Paul DeNigri (53:40):
3d scans or what?

[JR Strickland (53:40):
lot of reference photos with my camera and then
the team that tracked the shots, they gaveme a rough outlay. Always give
me rough wire frames of the layout of the space.
Even with the Kobe with theFro video, they give me the green screen as

(54:00):
a wire frame.

Oh, great.

[JR (54:01):
So I see. like the geometry of the green screen. So when I put Cal in the
thing, I see the green screengeometry and where he is. So when they gave,
when I got the Sean footageback, I have rough where the stairs are. I
have like rough where everythingin the place is. It's not exact, but it's like

(54:25):
rough. And then I created it.
So it sounds like you're doing,you're almost doing tech viz

[JR Stric (54:31):
Yeah, interior design literally is interior design.
And finding the right materials to put over.
Again, now it would be UnrealEngine and it'll be a real time. But I mean,
not real time on set, but it'dbe a real time render of what the place looks
like. I will put them on acard and have the interior of his, but just
finding the right textures,finding the wood texture, making sure it's

(54:52):
to scale, finding the textureof the fridge. But like, yeah, I model like
so much. I modeled the entireinside of his place. got chairs. Again, I have
OCD, so I have to balance itbecause I'm like, this isn't the right chair.
And I'mlike, but nobody's going to know it's
not the right chair. But that's why when yougo into the house, the piano
floats because the piano was CG because everythingwas CG anyway. So I said, I

(55:17):
might as well just float this piano up whenyou come into it.

[Pau (55:23):
Yeah. I knew the piano was CG. I didn't know that the house was CG.

[JR S (55:27):
But that's why it worked.

[Pau (55:27):
I was like, okay, they're, they are, you know, doing a, like a card projection,
3d projection paint out topaint out the, the Apple box under him. Like
I was, I was trying to seethe scene, how it would play out in nuke. It
didn't never even occurred to me that you, you would have modeled the entire house.

[JR (55:43):
Oh, that's awesome. That's like the biggest compliment because it's only,
like I said, it's only becauseof reflections. Because if you watch it again,
you go behind them and there'sa window, like a door in the distance and it's
white underneath, but the reflectionsmove and that paint out would never, it would
never work. But also I don'tknow if the director knows that it's a, because

(56:07):
I made sure to not tell himuntil like, cause I knew if I told the director,
that this is fake, I wouldget notes

[Paul DeN (56:15):
You'd get notes on it
this doesn't look real. So I knewif I were to say, oh, the background's fake,
they'd be like, oh, wait, but,oh, that does look a little fun. That chair
looks a little off. This,[Paul DeNigris]: Mm-hmm.
you know, the floor looks alittle, so I didn't tell anybody until the
project was out and it wasreleased. And I still don't think I've technically
told the director, but I knew that's just the stuff you learned. You agree, if you were to tell somebody something was fake. they will automatically start saying,oh it does.

[Pau (56:45):
Yeah, yeah. It's like, you know, ILM during the development of Iron Man,
right?

Yeah, oh yeah,
They showed John Favreau two shots. One of the practical armor and one of the CG armor and didn’t tell him which was whichAnd he picked and he was
like, this one, we need togo with the real one. It looks so much better.
And they're like, you're pointingat the CG one.

[JR (57:04):
No, exactly. And then Sean, he has a statue of that Buddha, and we had
to make that float, but it'sso reflective that you can't just get a scan
of it. You know, it's likea statue that's fully reflective. So I just
got some reference picturesand had an artist sculpt it in 3D and then

(57:28):
texture that in 3D, and thatway we have control. But the fun part is, the
parts that you don't know,like it's reflected in the glass. So it was
like putting a glass and thenreflected in that glass too. And then the depth
of field. And, and so we, weran the camera rehearsal to time everything

(57:49):
out with the Buddha there goingin, coming out. And then we place it with a
C-stand and then, and thendid it. So there's a split where it goes from
the fake, from the fake kitchento like the real back to the real world. But
we, even though it's handheld,we ran to multiple times so that we understood
where we're gonna be and wherethe camera is gonna be and where the eyelines

(58:11):
are gonna be and where Sean'sgonna be and things like that. And that made
us have the control over it.
But I'm really proud of how that video turnedout. And then the cool thing
about it too is, when they colored it, theyran it through film. So after
they colored it, they ran it through a filmprocess. So it has like kind
of a film look on it, but that handheld shakiness.

(58:33):
I just have really good peoplethat are really good at tracking because that
would haveprobably annoyed me. But it
helps sell it a little bit because it's that.
Yeah, it's neat. The film grainand scratches and stuff kind of give it this
homemade lo fi kind of feel.
But then it's obvious that there's a wholebunch of really advanced techniques
to pull off all the illusions that are thatare happening in there. Yeah. So it's a it's
a nice

exactly.

[Paul DeNi (58:51):
blend. A nice blend.

Exactly,

Sounds

no,

like

I appreciate

you guys.

that.

[Paul DeN (59:00):
Yeah, sounds like you

No,

guys

I'm

spent.

glad

Yeah.

[JR (59:01):
we fooled you. I'm glad we, I'm glad, it's like a magician. It's like,
okay, you can fool anothermagician. Yeah, I was really proud of

[Pa (59:12):
Yeah, that's fantastic. Why don't we switch gears and talk about your short
film A Minor, which I watchedbefore we recorded and I think is awesome.
Fantastic performances, beautifulphotography, and a star turn from your lead
actress, who I think we're gonna see some interesting stuff from in the future.

[JR (59:32):
Yeah, we've auditioned 100 people for that. Like I literally auditioned
over 100 people for those fourroles, because I know how critical it is. And
my background has always beendirecting, like even in college, my major is
filming video, but the concentrationis directing. So it's kind of getting back
into that mode. You know, youget out here and then you start advancing in

(59:55):
your career. And I just alwayslooked up to like George Lucas and... James
Cameron and people that areable to have their VFX company, but also, you
know, be, be storytellers.
And so I had this idea that irony is there'sminimum VFX in the actual,
in the actual short, you know, you would thinkI would make this crazy sci-fi

(01:00:16):
whatever, but it's like whatever just servesthe story. But it's a, it's
a story about a young, a young girl, 16 yearsold who wants to be a singer
and her parents kind of don't really understandwhat she's trying to do. So
she takes matters into her own hand. And thebenefit I had is that I'm able

(01:00:38):
to have connections now that I didn't havebefore, like working in this
industry and working with people on some ofthe biggest music videos and
projects in the world. Then you just get peoplethat really are good at what
they do. And so Anthony Camada, he's my DPand he- And then I also have
a story for each part of it. So with the cinematography,I want to have a story with

(01:01:03):
it. So I wanted to make sure, you know, whenshe's doing her art, it's very
colorful and it's very, very vibrant. But whenshe's not doing her art, it's
very monochromatic and it's very dull and it'svery, you know, and so you
see hints of, even when she goes to her room,there's like a little more
color in her room, but it's still dull. It'snot until. she goes out into

(01:01:24):
the world, whether it's the opening scene orwhether it's in the middle,
where we really start feeling this vibranceto it. And I know a lot of
times with independent projects and short films,there's kind of a grace that
we like to give people. We kind of like tograde it on a curve. And I
didn't want it to be graded on a curve. I didn'twant to say, oh, it looks good
for a short film or it looks good for an indieproject. I just wanted to say

(01:01:48):
like, it looks good. You know what I mean?
And that's why having... Vanda,my producer, Vanda Lee on it, and just everybody
that helped. It's even whatwe were talking about before with the sound,
like making sure I have somebodythat's really good with the sound mixing on
it, making sure that the resourcesthat I built, I used to work out of that music

(01:02:12):
studio and just using thatas a resource. So, and just like honestly,
like people just kind of believingin you and supporting you and friends and family
and. You know, like my girlfriendat the time making sacrifices. It's like everybody
kind of pitching in and thenyou, you see that what you're creating in your
vision is actually like literallyemploying people and like allowing people to,

(01:02:37):
to live out their dreams. SoI'm really excited to, to do more of that.
I have some features that I'mworking on and a feature that, um, it's just
tough because There's justlevels to it. So there's like, okay, this feature
will be this budget, but thisfeature, you know, will be this budget and
just making all of that work.
But the response to A Minor has been amazing.

(01:02:59):
And now it's released publicly.
So I encourage everybody to just go watch itand let me know what you think.
But like everybody that's watched it, we hada screening in Chicago and
we had a screening in LA. And one of the biggestcompliments is afterwards,
they're not talking about the techniques first.
The first conversations are.
Oh man, like the story, you knowwhat I mean? And then we get
into, you know, how'd you do it? But one ofthe biggest compliments is

(01:03:23):
that the first reaction is, oh, the story.
And we really dive into that.
So that's what I'm proud of.
Yeah, I think it works fantasticas a short because you really quickly, uh,
endear the character to theaudience.
Like we really, you know, startto feel for her. I'm, and maybe it's because

(01:03:44):
I'm, I'm an artist and I'vehad those conversations across the table. I imagine, I imagine some of that comes from, uh, comes from a autobiographical,
uh, sources, you know, havingthat conversation. Like, are you really going to be an artist for your, for your life? When don't you want
to do something? that's goingto pay the bill,

[JR Strickland] (01:04:01):
Yeah.

[P (01:04:02):
having that conversation. So immediately I was in her corner rooting for
her. And I saw where the storywas going, but I was hoping and hoping and
crossing my fingers. I'm like,don't take the story in that direction.

Yeah.

[Pau (01:04:15):
You did, but where you put a twist on it was her response to what happens to her.
Yeah. And it's like, and it's just like,it's what comes first too, you know? Things
could be different if thishappens and these could be different if this
happens. And sometimes there'sanxiety and feeling like something's gonna
happen and you don't know ifit's gonna happen or how it's gonna happen

(01:04:37):
and how they're gonna respondto it. So it's just keeping that, keeping that
at the forefront and reallyjust focusing on the story. I feel like sometimes
I try to write a theme butsometimes it's better just to write the story
and then let the theme kindof just. happen. And it's like, these are the
events that happen and theseare the dramatic events that happen. And you
just follow it along becauseyou really are rooting for her. You're really,

(01:05:00):
really rooting for her. Doyou know which shot is CG in there?

[Paul DeNigris] (01:05:06):
No.
There's a matte painting in there.
There’s a matte painting of it's thecar and then it's the city and that city is
completely matte painted. Because the location closed at night.
And so we had to shoot at apark. And so at the park, it's just trees.

(01:05:26):
And then there's a lot of roto.
There's a lot of roto and a lot of... And sowhat I did for the matte painting
is first, I had a picture, because it's supposedto be looking over LA.
First, it was just a picture,but it looked weird. Then I had to make the
picture look really grainyand really bad, because obviously, it's at

(01:05:47):
night, so there's a lot ofgrain. It still looked a little off. So what
I did was me and my friendwent to fly a drone. We flew the drone where
that picture was taking ofthe city. And then, so I can get the twinkle
of the lights. So the dronequality wasn't high enough to just use the
drone, but it was high enoughto get the exposure of the lights. So then

(01:06:12):
I overlaid the drone on topof the picture. And so the lights dance because
although those are the lightsfrom then, but the rest of it is clear because
it's a picture.
And so that's a comp, you know,it's not, I'm talking about, right?

[Paul DeNigri (01:06:24):
Yeah, I do. I do.
And again, I bought that asthey went up on Mulholland and shot the classic
La La Land shot, you know.

[JR (01:06:35):
And that's frustrating that nobody knows. Like it's good that nobody knows,
but it's frustrating becauseI had to roto so much, but it's such a crucial
part of the movie that it hasto be an invisible
effect. And I feel like that'swhere sometimes it's kind of fun. It's stressful
because you're like, why amI doing the most crucial part and the most

(01:06:58):
moving part? And it has tobe a hidden effect. But what we're talking
about with the Cal video andstuff before when you're planning something
and you're trying to figureout how to save money and how to make it economical.
And honestly, it will, it willbe way more dangerous to shoot at an actual
overlook where people can gethurt, you can fall, like it's not enough space.

(01:07:20):
So it was cool just to haveus park that we had all the space we needed.
And then I replaced the background.
But Roto in that is Roto in that is no joke,but even just I'm really happy
though I had the lights twinkling because that,but that goes to the references.
When you're looking at a video and you're like,why does this look real? Why
are you like, because it's not moving. I mean, we see that when people use CG trees, like if you use a picture of a tree,like none of the leaves are

(01:07:47):
moving. And then if you go to 3D trees, someof the leaves move just a little
bit. And it's like that subtle thing. My friendwho I talk to all the time.
He catches those things. He's not even necessarilya VFX artist. He's just my
friend. But he'll say, man, this looks fakebecause the trees ain't moving.
And he's like, yeah, that stuff doesn't makea difference.

[Pa (01:08:06):
Yeah, it's the details that the audience often won't notice, but they'll
notice if they're not there.

[ (01:08:14):
And like you said, people can really relate to this. Like I showed Jay Shetty
the film and he immediatelywas like, man, I relate to this because like
my parents, it's like whatever,when you're following your dream and following
your goal, that's what peoplerelate to. So it's for anybody with a dream,

(01:08:36):
pretty much, that can relateto this story. And you really do root for her.
And she's... Her name's Anani Taylor,she's amazing. Like she, and she really has
that voice. Like in the auditions,

[Paul DeNigris] (01:08:49):
Awesome.
I made her sing Whitney Houstonand some of the other girls in the other room
almost just walked out becauseshe was so loud and so boisterous. And I was
like, she's amazing. And propsto just the whole crew because they're dynamics
and working together. Yeah,I could talk about it forever, but go check
it out and like definitelylet me know what you think. It's just A Minor.

(01:09:10):
Look up A Minor Movie on Instagram,aminormovie.com, or it's on Vimeo. Yeah, just
let me know what you think.

[Pa (01:09:17):
I will include the links in the show notes for this one. My last thought
on A Minor is it's a reallytextbook example of making the story specific
and by making it so specific,you make it universal.
I'm about the furthest thingaway from a 16-year-old black girl, but I really,
really rooted for her and identifiedwith her.

(01:09:41):
So kudos.

[JR Str (01:09:41):
thank you, I appreciate that. Even hearing people's perspective, where
you come from also affectshow you view it. My grandma, when she watches
it, feels a certain way. Herrelatability from a parent standpoint, sometimes
women's point of view fromthe little girl, sometimes men's point of view,

(01:10:04):
where they don't understandwhat's going on. I've had that too. It's like,
when does... when do thingsstart to click? And depending on somebody's
personal experience, so likestarting to click right away, it's starting
to click later, what peopleare hoping for, what the reality is, it's like,
it all kind of depends on theperson's experience. I feel like in a way it's
a film, but I like to thinkof it as a piece of art, as well as like an

(01:10:28):
art piece where you can interpretit. And I'm trying to get better at that, knowing
what am I writing that mightbe more commercially like accepted? in terms
of a feature or whatever. Andthen what do I want to live as just a thought-provoking
art piece and get out of myhead on, is this good or is this bad? It's
not like, no, no. When peoplefinish this, they're gonna think about this.

(01:10:53):
And that is the goal of thisspecific project or just to create and tell
a good story. So I'm glad youenjoyed it.
Yeah, thanks. And you are obviouslya storyteller. Every piece that you do, whether
it's making a music artistfloat through his CG
house or telling a personalstory, it's all storytelling, right? We're

(01:11:17):
pushing pixels around, butultimately we're telling stories. If we're
not connecting with the audience,if we're not helping the director tell the
story, then we're not doingour job.
So kudos to you. J.R., thanksso much for being part of the show. I really
appreciate you spending yourtime and sharing your insights with the audience.
Again, I will put all of J.R.'slinks and links to the music videos that we've

(01:11:39):
discussed and to his film,A Minor. I'll put those in the show notes.
And if you enjoyed the show,if you're watching on YouTube, if you wouldn't
mind hitting the like and subscribebutton and also leave me a comment if there's
something you wanna ask J.R.
or you wanna ask me or you wanna see me coverin a future episode. Please
share it. If you're listening to the audioonly version of the show on

(01:12:00):
one of the multitude of podcast aggregatorsout there, please leave us
a follow and a star review and let us knowwhat you think of the show.
For VFX for Indies and for everybody at FoxtrotX-Ray and for JR Strickland
and everyone at Nocturnal Effects, I thankyou so much for your time.

Peace.

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Bridging Hip-Hop and Visual Effects: The Journey of VFX Guru JR Strickland

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