September 13, 2023 • 64 mins
Join us as we pull back the curtain on the world of filmmaking, with the talented writer-producer duo, Joe Russo and Chris LaMont, as our guides. Imagine sharing a space with the pioneers behind the Bruce Willis action movie, Hard Kill and the spine-chilling Netflix horror, The Inheritance. The journey gets even more exciting as we traverse their career paths, delve into their successful partnership, and unravel the process that led them to triumph on the Blood List, a compilation of the year's best horror scripts, no less. It's a raw, unfiltered glimpse into Joe's transformation from a development executive to a creator, their on-set experiences, and much more.
Now, hold your breath as we switch gears and immerse ourselves in the world of visual effects. Like the pieces of a puzzle fitting seamlessly, Joe and Chris dissect the VFX process in their recent movie, The Au Pair Nightmare, and the subtle yet crucial role these effects play in the overall narrative. The duo underscores the importance of meticulous planning, the joy, and rigors of non-union production, and how seemingly small details could enhance or mar the visual story. Yes, we are talking about transforming a storefront for a film and the grueling task of cleanup VFX, with not just insights, but anecdotes from their personal experiences.
In the final leg of this riveting journey, we delve deeper into the role of visual effects supervisors, especially in horror films. Beyond the clapperboard, Joe and Chris impart valuable lessons from their experience on the anthology series Nightmare Cinema. The duo underscores the importance of early engagement with VFX supervisors, the significance of staying within budget constraints, and the potential of AI in visual effects. Furthermore, they highlight the importance of a symbiotic relationship between directors and VFX artists, bringing home the point that when this collaboration works, it's magic on screen. Prepare to be educated, entertained, and enlightened!
Take-Out: https://vimeo.com/9734622
The Au Pair Nightmare: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.ceb90f89-5071-2a61-89ff-83f097c0b800?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb
Midnight Clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXQhzY9fgY0
Nightmare Cinema: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.acb560ef-be74-2da5-6e85-d46fa3b3880a?ref=imdb_web&autoplay=1&ref_=imdbref_tt_wbr_fdv&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_fdv-20
Hard Kill: https://www.netflix.com/title/81306216
Hosted by Foxtrot X-Ray’s founder and “chief pixel pusher” Paul DeNigris, who brings to the conversation 25 years of experience in both independent filmmaking and visual effects, as well as 20 years of experience in teaching all aspects of digital filmmaking at the university level.
For episodes, transcripts, and more, visit http://vfxforindies.com
For more information about what Foxtrot X-Ray can do for your film, visit https://foxtrotxray.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul DeNigris (00:00):
What do alien spiders, sadistic projectionists
, nanny nightmares and BruceWillis have in common?
Find out this week on the VFXfor Indies podcast.
With me today are Joe Russo andChris Lamont, a writer producer
(00:34):
team that I've known for anumber of years.
They recently wrote and that'sa recently wrote the Bruce
Willis action, or hard kill.
They wrote a movie called theAu pair nightmare that I was
lucky enough to do some visualeffects for, and they have
written the upcoming Netflixhorror movie, the Inheritance,
(00:55):
among many other things thatthey will tell you about.
Welcome to the show, gentlemen.
Chris LaMont (01:00):
Well, thank you, paul, it's a pleasure to be here
.
Joe Russo (01:04):
Hello Paul.
Paul DeNigris (01:07):
So I've known Chris for close to 20 years now.
Chris was the founder of thePhoenix Film Festival, so I know
him through that.
And if I haven't mentioned itbefore, I will say it many, many
more times to come the PhoenixFilm Festival is my favorite
film festival in the world and Imake sure that I participate in
it in some way every singleyear.
(01:28):
For example, chris and I run astation at the in the, in the
big party tent every year duringwhat's called Kids Day and it
happens to be a big surprise,happens to be about visual
effects we set up a big greenscreen and let the kids do their
, do their little skits on thegreen screen and send them home
with a composite of themselves,you know, with SpongeBob or
(01:50):
something like that.
So it's a lot of fun.
And Chris, chris and I havecollaborated on a lot of things.
And then I've known Joe sincehe was a student of Chris's back
at Arizona State University forquite a while.
Joe was never a student of mine.
He was long gone from ASUbefore I started teaching there.
Joe Russo (02:08):
Long gone.
Paul DeNigris (02:09):
I'm old, but I have avidly followed his career
since since he left ASU andmoved out to Los Angeles.
Chris LaMont (02:16):
As have I.
I have also followed thatcareer pretty much.
Joe Russo (02:20):
Unfortunately, we're handcuffed together.
Chris LaMont (02:23):
Yes, my second wife.
Joe Russo (02:25):
He has to, he has to follow along.
Paul DeNigris (02:30):
Nice.
Well, that's a great segue.
Why don't you guys give do alittle introduction of
yourselves and your careerhighlights, both individually
and as a partnership?
Chris, you want to go first.
Chris LaMont (02:41):
Sure, you know I started making movies a long
time ago when I was in fourthgrade, and very prolific.
I was just still be doing ittoday directed and written,
directed number of way, microbudget features.
As Paul mentioned that I did, Idid start the Phoenix Film
Festival.
I also produce a number offeature films that have gotten
(03:05):
national internationaldistribution.
I switched from writing,directing, to producing and now
I'm working with Joe Russo hereas a screenwriters.
We're both in the WGA and we'vehad a lot of success and we
hope to continue doing that much, much more.
You know, depending on what themarket will bear and how much
(03:26):
the producers and studios willbear us, I think, is the best
way to put that.
Joe Russo (03:31):
So yeah, I mean spoiler alert.
I met Chris at Arizona Statewhen he was my teacher.
He was the youngest facultymember at the film school at the
time and really wasn't a filmschool, to be honest.
That's true.
It was barely a film school.
(03:52):
I hadn't even officially startedyet.
The film school isn'tofficially yet Right, and you
know Chris, chris is apolarizing figure with students
because he gives them honestfeedback and you know, film
students, who are invincible infilm school, don't always like
(04:15):
to hear that they're wrong.
I was under the impression thatfeedback is good, notes are
good.
I took the feedback he gave meon a short and I applied it and
it ended up getting into a filmfestival.
So I was like, oh, he givesgood notes.
So I continued to go back tohim, even though that was the
(04:38):
only class I ever had with Chris.
I continued to go back to himto get feedback on my subsequent
shorts that I made throughschool.
We worked professionally forthe first time together on a
movie he produced where you know.
I think it was a reallychallenging shoot and he and I
bonded through that process.
Chris LaMont (05:02):
And when I brought a few ASU grads on and you know
, joe has always been a directorand so I said, well, the best
way to learn how to be adirector is to be the assistant
to the director.
And so Joe, joe is theassistant director on a feature,
and if you want to look it upon IMDb, you're more than happy
to do that.
Joe Russo (05:18):
To the director.
Chris LaMont (05:20):
Assistant to the director.
Yes, there's a difference.
Yes, and that was a greatexperience for sure.
Joe Russo (05:26):
So we basically bonded on that and when I
started to think about movingout to Los Angeles I knew I
needed some kind of a callingcard.
And Chris and I collaborated ona short film called Takeout
which ended up playing at abunch of festivals and won some
awards and basically gave me theammunition I needed to help get
(05:49):
me a job out in LA.
So since then we've kind ofbeen.
You know, I worked as adevelopment executive for a few
years, which is where I kind ofgot my chops as a producer and
while I was doing that Chris andI were quietly riding away at
night.
Kind of our first big success onthe ride in front was we set a
(06:11):
project up with Will Smith'scompany.
And that was kind of when I waslike maybe I should be focusing
on this more than justsomething I do in the evenings
with Chris.
And so I left that developmentjob and we proceeded to have
like a really nice little runwhere I was.
You know it's a hard thing totransition from development
(06:34):
executive to creator andbecause- Especially in the town.
Chris LaMont (06:39):
You know, I mean Joe.
Everyone knew Joe as an execand so suddenly he's walking
around as a creative.
And everyone's like I didn'tknow you could write Joe.
Joe Russo (06:51):
Well, and they didn't until, you know, chris and I
landed in the agent and manager,and then we ended up getting on
this thing called the bloodlist, which is basically the
best horror scripts of the year,is voted on by execs around
town, and we proceeded to go ona run where we got on that list
three years in a row with threedifferent scripts.
(07:11):
Two of them have been producednow, the third is set up with a
producer.
So, you know, it kind of helpedtransition me from being an
exec to, you know, a full onwriter.
And you know, so that's when,you know, we started selling
(07:32):
things and things startedgetting made.
We started getting hired towrite stuff and suddenly we've
got like a nice little body ofwork.
Chris LaMont (07:38):
So and I think the important thing that you can
tell, you know and take with youall of the listeners and
viewers out there is that youknow.
One of the reasons why there'sbeen some success for Joe and
myself is because Joe'srelationships that he's made
throughout the years while hewas a development exec.
It's so crucial to benetworking when you are in this
(08:00):
industry.
It doesn't matter where you'reat, what department you're in,
what station you are, whetheryou're a veteran who's been
making movies for years or it'syour first film or streaming
project or TV series or what,even with short films that
you're making on your own, it'sall about networking and talking
to people and getting your nameout there.
The one thing I always rememberis this idea that it's not you
(08:23):
know everyone says it's not youknow what you know, it's who you
know.
It's more important, it's notwho you know, it's who knows you
, and so I think that was a realgreat you know a real great
thing to watch how Joe'snetworking has really kind of
helped to jumpstart a lot of thework that we've had and a lot
of the sales that we've made anda lot of the works that's been
(08:44):
created.
So I think that's somethingthat everyone can remember, yeah
.
Joe Russo (08:47):
I got really great advice before I moved to LA from
an entrepreneur named LarrySheffield and he said when you
go out to LA, try to meet twonew people a week, because if
you meet two new people a weekwhich doesn't seem like a huge
daunting thing by the end of theyear you've met over 100 new
people.
Right, and that was advice thatI really took to heart.
(09:10):
And once I moved up to being adevelopment exec and I had an
expense account, it became a loteasier to go meet two new
people a week.
But you know and Chris and Iabsolutely benefited from that I
mean, our first screenplay saletruly came from kind of a
happenstance situation like that.
(09:32):
Someone I had met on a generalmeeting.
You know he and I partnered upon some projects.
We went to Lionsgate for ameeting on one of those projects
and while we were in the lobbywe bumped into the producer of
the soft franges and he happenedto be neighbors with my friend
(09:53):
and as we were walking away,matt says to me gosh, I wish I
had something that was like sawto give to Mark over here.
And I said, you know, it'sreally funny, matt, like we
actually just signed with thegrocery agency off of a script
that is kind of saw like, and hegoes really, and he turns
(10:14):
around and across the lobby hegoes hey, mark, he goes.
Yeah, matt, I'm going to sendyou a script.
It's really great.
And then he goes, can't wait toread it.
Mark turns around, or Mattturns around to me and goes it
better be good.
You bet, you bet, and that washow we sold our first screenplay
.
Chris LaMont (10:34):
It was a bloodless script too, so I mean we knew
that teeth.
Joe Russo (10:38):
Yeah Well, it wasn't a bloodless script then, though
it hadn't even gone out to themarket yet.
Chris LaMont (10:42):
Oh, oh, that's right, you're right, yeah, yeah,
we got an early look at it.
Joe Russo (10:46):
We got an early look at it and they liked it and they
hemmed and hawed and then, whenit got on the blood list, they
made an offer for it the nextday because they didn't want it
to get scripted up by anybodyelse.
But so yeah, but it goes toshow you, I had a relationship
with someone who had arelationship with another person
who ended up having access tomoney and they bought the script
(11:09):
from us.
Paul DeNigris (11:12):
That's a great story and you're right, this
business is all aboutrelationships.
I mean, most of the VFX workthat I do now has come to me
through a producer who I met,because I handed somebody a
business card at a party at thePhoenix Film Festival and then
my business card made the roundsand landed in the hands of a
VFX producer who has become mypartner and we've worked
(11:34):
together for five years off ofthat one business card.
It is a business ofrelationships.
The other thing I wanted to tagonto.
You said Chris gives good notes.
Chris and I became friendsbecause he saw my feature that I
wrote and produced and directedand he said there's something
(11:58):
here.
It's not good right now, but Imean he was a little nicer than
that.
Chris LaMont (12:03):
But just a little nicer.
I don't know why anybody talksto me when you start.
Paul DeNigris (12:10):
He said there's something good in there.
If you're willing to sit withme, I've got some ideas.
And we sat and we spent anafternoon.
We chopped a half hour out ofthat movie and then it started
getting into film festivals andit went into distribution and
all of that.
Joe Russo (12:24):
And so.
Paul DeNigris (12:25):
Chris and I have been have been buds ever since,
and that, to me, illustrates oneof the key takeaways that I've
had in my career is notes aregood.
Notes are how we grow.
Joe Russo (12:40):
Yeah, they can.
You're in differentperspectives.
They can be.
It depends on who's giving them.
But yeah, they can be good.
You should be open to all notes, but you should also be
discerning about how toimplement Right.
Paul DeNigris (12:56):
I think that's all.
Notes are an opportunity forgrowth.
There you go, that's.
That's a better.
They're good or bad, they'reopportunities I know they're
good, but they're an opportunityfor growth.
Joe Russo (13:04):
No, I it's funny, I, Chris has set me up with some
some folks to give notes to overthe years as well, and they
come back to him and they'relike Joe's so nice, joe's so
wonderful, bum bub, bub bub, andhe's like.
He's like I don't get it.
He's like when I get peoplenotes, they tell me I'm a jerk.
He's like what are you doing?
That's so different.
Chris LaMont (13:26):
I have to hold.
I have retooled the way that Ido work with notes and and I've
really tried to emphasize thepositive more.
Joe Russo (13:34):
I think it's more of a well nurturing kind of kind of
way as opposed to we were, wewere benefits of the other, the
other route.
Paul DeNigris (13:46):
But but yes, absolutely, and and and Chris,
you're not alone.
I'm I'm sure tons and tons ofmy students over the years would
say that that my my notes werewere hard to swallow.
Again, the ones who took mynotes are the ones that are
working in the industry.
you know the the the folks whowanted my feedback, who wanted
(14:07):
to grow.
They're the ones who are, youknow, 2d supervisors on Star
Trek and 3D supervisors atMarvel and things like that
they're.
They're the ones who are outthere doing it because they
learned early on.
Notes are an opportunity forgrowth and that's how you get
better as a writer, as a visualeffects artist, as a director,
as an editor, any any creative,technical, you know position in
(14:28):
this industry If you get goodnotes that help you grow, that
help you see beyond your ownability, right, because we we
don't know what we don't know,right, so we're only ever as
good as as our current knowledgeand notes.
Thoughtful, constructive notesare always a good way to grow
beyond your, your currentlimitations.
Chris LaMont (14:49):
So now I just want to say one thing real fast is
that you know I I don't thenotes that when, when, and it's
great when you have a lot of asupport system, that gives you
great feedback.
But the one thing that I alwaystell you know, my students and
anyone that I'm, I'm mentoringand anything like that is is
that you shouldn't ask, youdon't want people to tell you
(15:11):
how good your script is, becausethat's not going to help you.
The most important thing is totell me what's wrong with it or
how can I fix it in your opinion.
Because, like you said, likethat's how you grow.
But, more importantly, it'slike I don't need you to tell me
that it's good.
I kind of know already it'sgood.
I wouldn't have made it likethat, but you know, for you to
(15:32):
be able to drill down whatdidn't work for you, that to me,
is the most valuable thing.
And to and to be surrounded bypeople who are willing to give
you that honest opinion, nomatter how it's, delivered, by
people that you respect, who youtrust to give you very
objective notes, because theyjust want to see the work get
better.
I think that's, that's the mostimportant thing.
Paul DeNigris (15:51):
Totally agree.
So I want to turn theconversation to visual effects
and, like I said, you guys wroteand produced the AWAPair
Nightmare.
Remind me again what networkthat was for Lifetime.
Trailer (16:05):
Taylor, do you really think you're ready to move into
an entirely new place withcomplete strangers?
You don't punch in at nine andout at five.
Doctor and Mrs Caleb are veryprivate people.
The job is 24 seven.
There's no social life here.
You give yourself over toanother family completely.
Chris LaMont (16:25):
It was an independent film that got sold
to the Lifetime network, so itwasn't made specifically for
Lifetime, but yes, it did, andwhen it debuted we had like what
, that's three quarters of amillion viewers the first time,
and the next time it aired Ithink it was another like almost
we had a total of almost amillion people watch that movie,
(16:46):
which was very, veryinteresting.
Joe Russo (16:46):
Sure, it would have been nice if we had gotten some
residuals on it.
Chris LaMont (16:49):
Well, yeah, I mean residuals are always a concern.
Joe Russo (16:56):
The joys of non-union production.
Chris LaMont (16:58):
Yeah absolutely.
Joe Russo (16:59):
But yeah, no, it's crazy to me.
That movie's it's aired so manytimes and it's done so well on
VOD Like just to give you anidea like our composer on that
movie has made more money than Imade.
Writing and directing hits offof the back end, which is like
(17:19):
wild to me.
But anyway, I digress.
Yeah a lot of people have seenthe movie, which has been nice.
Paul DeNigris (17:25):
That's great yeah that's great, and you guys
asked me to do a couple of shots.
We changed a storefront.
Yes, you know, it's a simplesign replacement Pretty typical
Bretton Butter kind of thingthat we do, particularly for
independent filmmakers.
We do a lot of that.
Oh, this name isn't cleared.
We either need to erase it orreplace it.
You know, stuff like thatReally really simple.
Joe Russo (17:46):
Yeah, it was a very.
It's a domestic thriller, Ibelieve is the genre that the
producers classify it under.
And you know, you're in a housewith people.
There's not a lot of room forVFX elements and it was more.
Yeah, I think cleanup wasprobably the best way to
(18:08):
describe most of what the VFXshots were.
It was, you know, it was if weneeded to replace something on
the face of a phone or there wasa magazine thing where they
realized the background of theor the back of the magazine that
had hadn't been cleared, thingslike that.
(18:29):
And then, yeah, and then, youknow, the budget for our VFX was
very low and our producer didnot feel that we should.
We needed to change thestorefront of the sign because
quote unquote nobody would be,nobody would care.
But I cared and Paul Krammhelped us out with that and I'm
(18:53):
glad we did it because I think,like it's the little things,
like that, it's the littledetails that matter on, you know
, a movie's accumulative effectof all those little things, and
if you have one person whowatches the movie and realizes
the storefront isn't the samething as what the characters are
calling it, suddenly they'vebeen taken out of the movie, you
(19:15):
know.
So it meant a lot that you camein and helped with that stuff.
Chris LaMont (19:18):
You know, and the other thing too, joe, to just,
you know, throw this out toeveryone is that that shot we
knew that shot would have to bein the movie because it was the
establishing shot of therestaurant.
So that's actually where Joeand I appear in the film in our
cameo, because we knew it had tobe in there.
I'm like we better be in thismovie.
(19:40):
So we actually plopped out thetable right in front of the shot
.
So yeah.
Sharp-eyed viewers, and I don'tknow if you knew that, Paul,
when you made that shot.
That's how important that workof yours was, because it was the
shot that Joe and I were in.
Joe Russo (19:55):
Yeah, Chris was far more cynically motivated than I
was.
Chris LaMont (20:01):
Well, I did get in the movie later.
I did have quite the scenestealing.
You know extra role as well.
But that's Joe's AlfredHitchcock moment, right there.
Joe Russo (20:10):
That's right.
That's the only thing that Iappear in the movie in Nice.
That's correct.
Paul DeNigris (20:14):
Nice.
So shots like that typicallyget discovered in post.
Yeah, correct, you know thetype of cleanup stuff that's
what we knew going in.
Joe Russo (20:25):
Right, we knew that's why we you know we shot it more
as a plate than anything elsethere was there was, the camera
wasn't moving, the it was lockedoff because we knew we were
going to have to, probably wewere going to have to change
that sign out and there was nopractical way to put it for
production, to put a new sign upthere with our budgets and our
(20:47):
schedule.
So it was kind of always knownit was going to be a VFX shot.
I think the producers in theirmind were thinking, oh, we'll
tell Joe it'll be a VFX shot andthen we'll try to cut it later.
You know which is which is afun little trick, I guess.
But but but yeah, we went in.
(21:07):
When I know that there are goingto be cleanup jobs like that, I
try my best not to to move thecamera around too much, because
I know that's where things gethairy and difficult, and I do.
I know that because I did a lotof short films and a lot of
those short films had, you know,some level of cleanup VFX
(21:33):
incorporated into them and Idefinitely remember which ones
were a bear for the VFX artistsand which ones were not.
So I try to be conscientiousabout that stuff.
But yeah, I mean, sometimes Ithink you know, you, you realize
like, oh shit, there's a cablein the background that that kind
(21:55):
of fun stuff I think youdiscover and post, you know
right, and then then you reallyhope that the camera is not
moving too much.
Paul DeNigris (22:05):
Well, it's good that you, you were able to take
the lessons you learned fromyour short films and the VFX.
You know you're short films andand and take those with you
into making features and to beable to say, ok, I know this is
going to be a VFX shot, so Ineed to, you know, simplify the,
the setup or or lock it off.
You know you're going into itinformed, you're not just
(22:26):
flailing the camera around andexpecting a VFX artist to be
able to figure it out.
That's.
That's something we see Not notall that common anymore, but
you know, early on, when Istarted my company, a lot of
clients, they would come and itwould be hey, we discovered
after the fact, after we shot it, we'd like to do VFX on this
(22:47):
and it's.
They haven't shot it with thatin mind and it just makes the
process much more expensive,much more difficult, much more
time consuming.
So it's, it's.
It's really great to hear that,that you were so hands on with
things in your, your short film.
Yeah, experience that you areable to take that into into your
future.
Joe Russo (23:06):
My my, my senior thesis.
I wanted to put a.
It was a, it was a Santa Clausmovie and I wanted to put
Santa's sleigh on top of arooftop.
And so I went to the mosttalented VFX person that we went
to school with the time, JJChalupnik, and I said how am I
going to get, you know, a Santasleigh and reindeer up on top of
(23:30):
this roof?
You know?
And so we.
He basically said OK, when youshoot the shot, do this, this
and this, and you know.
Then he took basically aChristmas ornament of a sleigh
and he put it on top of the roof, so that it you know it ended
up looking great.
So I kind of knew then, ifthere's something that I don't
(23:54):
know how to do, I need to asksomeone who does know how to do
it, so that I shoot it in a waythat's not going to make their
life worse on the back end.
I also think like if you can goin and you make those decisions
earlier on, not only are yousaving the VFX artist a headache
(24:15):
, I think you can conceptualizethe shot a lot better too, and
then I think ultimately resultsin a better quality VFX shot at
the end result.
All right, that's all fortonight.
Paul DeNigris (24:30):
Goodbye, you nailed it, joe.
I mean, that's that's.
That's.
The whole point of this podcastis to talk about this sort of
stuff and educate independentfilmmakers who've never used
visual effects before, to savethem from making those mistakes
that we all made early on in ourcareer.
(24:51):
And to you know, to get that tothat point, you don't have to
talk to me, but talk to somebody.
Right, you're going to use VFXin your film.
You don't have to call me, butfind somebody who knows what the
hell they're doing and ask themhow do I shoot this?
That you will save yourself somuch time and anguish and money
(25:12):
and agony.
Chris LaMont (25:13):
Well, the other thing too, though, paul, I think
is that, and I know, this issomething that I'm sure you
drill into a lot of your viewersand audience is that bringing
in the visual effects supervisorif you know there's going to be
a good amount of visual effects, bringing them on early in the
process to address a lot ofthese things, as opposed to
(25:37):
having to play catch up, isalways the best way to go as a
filmmaker, because you know itshouldn't be a situation where
you are in post and you realizethere's one thing that let he
race a cable.
It's not that if you're puttingtogether something that's pretty
comprehensive in regards tolike I know I'm going to be
using effects and it's not goingto be a cable or a sign replace
, you know that it's importantto go to someone well in advance
(26:00):
talking about storyboards,talking about shot.
You know shot set up and thatkind of thing, and it's not just
, I think, getting advice, butif you engage someone to be your
visual effects supervisor andbeing able to bring them into
all the phases of creativity inadvance, it does nothing but
make the entire pipeline work alot smoother and also I think
(26:21):
that the effects end up being alot better than they would have
been.
If you're playing, you knowcatch up at the end.
Joe Russo (26:26):
I've had both experiences.
I think, paul, you know one ofthose experiences is, if you
want to talk about it, yeah, soobviously you guys, your scripts
, are always on the blood list.
Paul DeNigris (26:41):
You're clearly writing in a very specific genre
horror and I know, joe, you'rea horror aficionado.
I know you also host a podcast,a horror podcast, which you can
tell us about, sure, postmortem, with Mick Garris, a horror
legend, legendary horrordirector, and so you obviously
(27:07):
have an affinity for that genreand that genre sort of lives and
dies on its special effects onset and its visual effects in
post, and particularly how theydovetail together.
So, yeah, a few years back, joewas producing a film, an
anthology series, calledNightmare Cinema.
(27:27):
I'm the projectionist, thecurator of 100 years of
nightmares Trapped in a silverscreen that never forgets.
Welcome to my nightmare.
(27:52):
And there was a sequence thatinvolved extra terrestrial
spiders that were attackingpeople, that came out of this
meteor and were attacking people, and it was a.
It was a big job and I was mycompany was one of the companies
that that bid on it and forvarious reasons, we didn't win
it.
I mean, you don't win them all,obviously.
And there Joe was not the onlyproducer on the film.
(28:14):
Had he been, then maybe wewould have won it, but he had
other producers that he neededto to also, you know, factor
their, their network, theirrelationships with it would be
affects people into the mix, andso it, you know it passed by,
passed us by, which is fine.
I have that recently had achance to catch up with the film
(28:35):
and it looks great.
It's, it's a lot of fun.
It's it's a kind of an updateon Creep show, one of my, one of
my favorites, from the, fromthe genre, from way back, and
the spiders look great and youknow to talk about.
You know you could talk aboutthat.
Some of the challenges.
I know you guys have practicalspiders on set.
You had a whole bunch ofdigital spiders got added to all
(28:56):
of all of that sort of stuff.
Joe Russo (28:58):
Nightmare Cinema was a big challenge on the VFX front
and a lot of it was for reasonswe already talked about.
Well, you know, in making sureyou're engaging the VFX artists
early on, if you can make surethey're present for when you're
shooting, if you can make surethey're you know they're, you
(29:20):
know they're there is involvedearly on and conceptually as
possible, we kind of got hate touse the word bamboozled, but we
kind of got bamboozled on thismovie when it came to the VFX I
mean movies almost five yearsold now I think we can talk
about this.
So you know, what happened wasI had been trying to lobby for
(29:46):
the company that my friend JJwas working at at that point.
It was called Muse VFX andthey're a big.
They're a big vendor, they do alot of big TV stuff and I had
recently become friends with oneof their most experienced
artists there and he brought usin and they did a bid, they did
a whole presentation and wereally wanted to use them, mick
(30:07):
really wanted to use them, butthey were underbid by another
VFX house that our financiershad worked with in the past and
what I did not know was somebodyowed somebody money and part of
the reason we were funnelingthis job to them was because of
(30:28):
that, and there was a lot of illwill between the financiers and
this company and unfortunatelyNightmare Cinema was the
recipient of that kind offractured relationship, let's
say.
And so I don't think that theywere as engaged conceptually as
(30:50):
they should have been, and whenthey were having issues on some
of the other movies that theywere working with this financier
on, they kind of stopped workon Nightmare Cinema as a result,
and so a lot of NightmareCinema got made in a bit of a
VFX vacuum, so to speak.
There's one segment that is anexception to this and that was
(31:14):
David Slade's segment.
In the movie he brought all ofhis own kind of VFX people to
the mix who he'd worked with andthey'd done Walking Dead and
lots of other big, big shows.
I think they might have doneBlack Mirror with him, if I
remember correctly.
But so his VFX are greatbecause they were involved
conceptually from the movie.
(31:36):
They were involved in how theeffects were going to augment
the special effects on set, howthey were going to change the
landscape.
I mean his segment of VFX lookincredible.
There are some segments inNightmare Cinema where I think
it's very clear that there wasnot a big preconceptualization
(32:00):
going in and I think that thosesequences suffer a bit for it.
But there was a moment in timewhere Paul's right.
One of the most ambitioussequences in the movie was the
scene with the aliens.
And we had no aliens and Ireally didn't want to go and
(32:22):
have the conversation withAlejandro Briget of maybe
they're just going to beinvisible aliens.
You know, maybe they're justgoing to be invisible aliens.
So you know, and we knew thatthis was one of the best
segments in the movie, we knewthat we had to try to support it
(32:42):
and but we knew we didn't haveany money because basically all
the money we had paid to thisVFX company they took and they
walked away with because theywere owed so much money from the
financiers already.
So we had basically no moneyleft.
And you know, paul came in withan amazing bid for it and I
(33:04):
wanted to push the work his way,but the reality was we just
didn't have any money left andMcGarris had a relationship with
the VFX producer who wasbasically going to do it as a
favor.
So that's what happened.
You know it was we needed toget bailed out by somebody and
we didn't have any money.
(33:24):
And then you know, free 50 wasthe right price, so so and they
did it.
And I mean these were guys, Imean really established VFX
people.
I wasn't like, you know, we gotlike what?
Basically what happened wasthey had just done the the Neil
(33:46):
DeGrasse Tyson show on Fox.
God, what the hell was it?
Cosmos, cosmos.
They just done Cosmos and theymade a ton of money off of that
job.
So they basically had thepeople in place and the money in
place to just do this like funlittle side thing.
Chris LaMont (34:05):
You know.
So we basically shot said justone more shot.
Joe Russo (34:12):
But you know it was, it was.
That's that's how, that's howour butts got saved on that, you
know.
So it was.
It was really hard because Ithink, like there are there, you
know, I think that segmentturned out really well and I
think David Slade's segmentturned out really well, for you
know the right reasons.
I think some of the VFX andsome of the other segments could
(34:34):
have been better, but they were.
They were really more aconsequence of being left, you
know, holding the bag by, youknow, these financiers in this
company, which we will not name.
Trailer (34:48):
No, if you want to go on IMDB, I'm sure you might
figure it out.
Chris LaMont (34:51):
Yeah, it's kind of an extreme circumstance but
these things happen.
Paul DeNigris (34:54):
You know there are.
There are lots of personalitiesin our business and lots of
lots of interesting characterswho, who you know, find
themselves in situations.
That's all I can say.
No-transcript.
You know, I went and I did ashort film right after an
Amherst Cinema called MidnightClear and it has a really big
visual effects elements at theclimax of the short.
Joe Russo (35:18):
And you know I made sure that my I made sure that JJ
Chalupik and I were talkingthrough storyboards that had a
(35:38):
time that we both had a reallystrong idea of what it was going
to look like, so that when hewas on set supervising those
shots, you know, it was lit theway it was we wanted it to be,
it was framed the way we wantedit to be and I think, you know,
even though that was a $12,000short film, that VFX shot looks,
(35:58):
you know, like a severalhundred thousand dollar one
because we did it right.
So I try to take some of themistakes we made on Nightmare
Cinema and, and you know, applythem in a way that was was far
more successful in the short andI and you know I learned a lot
(36:18):
going through that experiencethat I will hopefully not make
those mistakes again.
Chris LaMont (36:23):
Moving forward, yeah, joe, I remember on that
picture I mean I think that wasthe one thing that you were
saying and I agree with you it'slike if that shot doesn't work,
the whole movie doesn't work,and so that so much care was put
into that by Joe and the teambecause literally the entire
tone of the film, the emotionalarc of the characters,
(36:45):
everything that happened, thatwas the big payoff.
And so you know, I mean visualeffects, you know, can do a lot
more than just, you know,replace a sign or whatever.
I mean the crux of the of thatshort film, and it's an
excellent film.
And I'm glad, joe, by the way,that you did not reveal the
content of that shot, sohopefully they can go to
JoeRussoFilmscom, right, andthey could watch, they could
(37:08):
watch Midnight Clear right.
Joe Russo (37:09):
It's also available on Shutter right now too.
But yeah, anyway, yeah, no,it's, it's.
We're really proud of how thatturned out and and but again, it
went.
It was because I had all thisexperience, you know, working on
Shorter's JJ over the years.
It's because I had, I had thisnightmare experiment experience,
pun intended, on our murdercinema, with the effects that
(37:32):
that I was able to take all ofthat experience and apply it in
a really meaningful way for thestorytelling, you know.
It's also why, when, you know,we turned around and shot a pair
a couple of years ago and wecalled you and we were like, hey
, we need this shot ready.
It was an easy job because Iwas being conscious of, you know
(37:53):
, what needed to be done.
You know, yeah, yeah, that'sgreat.
Paul DeNigris (37:58):
And JJ is the same VFX artist who did the
Santa Claus piece that you weretalking about, that you've been
working with since college yeah,that's I mean.
That's something I always toldmy students when I was teaching
was.
You know, this is an industryof relationships and networking.
Look around the room the peoplethat you're sitting in class
(38:18):
with right now are thebeginnings of your professional
network.
These are the people thatyou're going to work with again
and again and again.
I have friends from film schoolfrom 30 years ago that I still
I still work with.
You know it's, it's the reality.
Once you find, once you findyour tribe as a filmmaker, you,
you tend to stick with them.
(38:39):
You know, that's why we see,you know, christopher Nolan's
and the Michael Mann's and theMartin Square Sages.
They work with the same peopleover and over again because they
develop that trust.
Joe Russo (38:49):
Yeah, there was almost between between that,
that senior thesis project, youknow, and and midnight clear, I
mean there was not if there wasa VFX shot in any of my shorts.
He was my first call, you know,and and and he's.
He did great work on on allthat stuff so and it turned.
I helped him get a couple jobs.
(39:10):
So you know I did, I did too.
Chris LaMont (39:12):
Yeah.
Joe Russo (39:16):
Yeah, but I got him.
I got him that job at Musewhich got him out to LA and got
to help launch, you know, thethe.
Now he's worked on huge TVshows, you know.
So it's it's been, it's beengreat to kind of watch him.
You know, blossom from fromthat.
Great Sounds like I need tohave him on.
(39:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chris LaMont (39:38):
You can tell you all about working with Joe Russo
, the true behind the scenes,behind this lovable facade that
you see, you know on your screenin your head right now the true
nightmare cinema, which is?
Which is Joe.
Anyway, just kidding, Moving on.
Paul DeNigris (39:55):
Why don't we switch gears?
Since you guys are writers andproducers and we've we've heard
about your producing exploits onall pair and on the nightmare
cinema, among other things let'slet's switch gears to when
you're at the conceptual stage,when you're writing a story,
when you're writing a script.
Are you?
Are you when it comes to thingslike special effects you know,
(40:17):
onset, makeup, gore, things likethat or visual effects like
this, this big moment inmidnight, clear, yeah, are you
thinking about that sort ofstuff?
Are you?
Are you factoring that in whenyou write?
Or are you?
Are you writing pie in the sky?
I'm going to write everythingthat I see in my head and then
we'll figure out how to dial itback, or we'll figure out how to
(40:38):
find the money for it.
Or are you?
Are you thinking you know thisis how much we're going to be
able to make this for, and so Ihave to.
I have to tailor what's on thepage to to make it as cost
effective as possible.
Joe Russo (40:53):
I think it's project specific, you know.
I mean, like, if we go inknowing, like when we got hired
to write the Opera Nightmare, weknew we were going to have a
teeny, tiny budget and a 14 dayschedule, you know.
So we wrote that story knowingthat we had to minimize action
(41:14):
sequences, we had to minimizevisual effects elements.
We had to, you know, like so.
But I think when we're writingfor ourselves and we're writing
for you know, just try to turnout a cool spec screenplay.
I would say it's more aboutwhat is the story call for.
(41:37):
You know, if we're writing abig action movie, I think we can
be a little bit more liberalwith those elements.
If we're writing what'sultimately going to be a
relatively contained, minimallybudgeted horror movie, I think
we try to be a little bit morecareful about some of those
things.
I think the other thing thatwe've learned while writing is a
(42:00):
lot of the development peoplethat you meet while you're, you
know, fleshing this thing outinto something that you can
produce, don't necessarilyunderstand visual effects and
don't necessarily understand howmuch they cost.
You know, like, for example,there's something we wrote right
(42:23):
before the writer strike thatwe went back and forth with our
reps about.
We wanted to basically do whatwe knew was going to just be a
set extension.
You know, like we were going tohave this wall that basically
like the characters looked upand it like stretches up into
infinity Not a hugely complexVFX shot but they read that and
(42:49):
they go, oh my God, that readsso expensive, like, and it makes
you go like, oh, they don'tactually know the difference
between like you know a hugeexplosion and that, or you know
what I mean Like or a creature,and that it's been kind of
interesting, the kind of, Ithink, over the years, navigate
(43:11):
what they think is expensive andwhat isn't Right.
Chris.
Chris LaMont (43:15):
Yeah, I think you know it's also depends on you
know, the producers that you'retalking to and what their scope
of knowledge is as well.
I mean you know like.
So, joe, when I think aboutlike visual effects and story, I
remember the big debate waswhen we did the Unwelcome script
(43:36):
and the big thing aboutUnwelcome is that there is a
huge house fire.
It's a contained movie thattakes place in one house and the
house had to catch on fire andwe were like adamant that there
was no other way that we couldtell that story without the
(43:56):
house catching on fire, becauseit all this allegory and
everything that came comes back.
And I remember the one producerwho read that and immediately
they just said it's tooexpensive to put a house on fire
.
And we knew, we knew, I mean,we knew it was gonna be some
visual effects for sure, but itwas like the cost of that,
(44:20):
especially for a contained movie, it's like the cost of that we
felt from a story perspectiveoutweighed what we felt that a
producer would need to pay to doit right, to do the story.
Joe Russo (44:32):
And I also was thinking too, my friend at that
company, muse Stefan Broderick,he's like the TV fire guy, like
he's like one of the best atfire in the business.
So I was thinking, well, when weget the money to make this
movie, I'm just gonna call himand he'll do it for the right
price and we'll solve that issue, cause it really wasn't a huge.
(44:56):
The rest of the movie was not abig VFX job and there was a lot
of production design elements.
I think that would have beenaugmented by VFX, but that was
really the big VFX piece andtrying to convince a producer
who maybe had a couple of recentbad experiences with fire and
(45:17):
VFX that it could be done, itcould be done well and it could
be done for a price, becomes achallenge.
But I think ultimately you haveto try to stay true to the
narrative and I don't think youcan compromise on that stuff
because I think once you startchanging the narrative to redo
your budget.
I think you know that's how wewent from, I think what was a
(45:41):
really interesting sciencefiction action movie in open
source.
Chris LaMont (45:45):
I knew exactly where you were going with this.
Joe Russo (45:48):
And that became the one location movie, hard Kill.
And so we've watched our sci-fiVFX, heavier ideas get cut to
the bone and we've seen whathappens and the results almost
always is not a positive.
So I think the better thing isget a really good artist in
(46:11):
early, figure out what yourshots are gonna be, storyboard
them, maybe, do some animatics,like whatever you have to do,
ahead of time so that when youget there and you shoot it it's
going to be the cheapest andeasiest way to do it.
But I think again, like a lotof studio executives, because
(46:36):
they don't have that tacticalexperience and maybe because
they don't necessarily have therelationship an artist to an
artist does, they can'tguarantee those things and so
they never wanna bet on thosethings.
Does that make sense?
Paul DeNigris (46:53):
Sure does.
Joe Russo (46:54):
Yeah, so I think for us it's a mixed, but I think,
ultimately, when we're writingfor ourselves specifically,
we're always trying to write thebest version that we can and
then, if that includes VFXelements, that includes VFX
elements and we'll figure it out, you know.
Chris LaMont (47:15):
I agree.
I mean it's just so important.
I think we know that the VFXare going to be there.
I mean the VFX, I mean they cando anything.
You can do anything with VFXthat your partner soul can
create and put on the page.
So for us it's more about let'sget it out there, let's put it
(47:36):
down, let's envision this, let'smake it great for the audiences
, let's make it great for theproducers and the studio execs
to be able to read it and getexcited about the project.
Get excited about that.
And our hope, honestly just likeJoe said, I mean is that, yeah,
they're so enamored with thescreenplay that they're not
(47:57):
gonna worry about how much yougotta pay for it.
You know Right, becauseeventually that will happen.
But you know, reading ascreenplay, a fresh screenplay
for the first time, and readingthat and experiencing that it's
a special thing.
And if you do it right, youknow it can definitely lead to
(48:20):
very magical places in someone'sheart and soul.
And we just know that, at theend of the day, that the VFX
will always be there to supportthe artist's vision.
And, yeah, it might be really,really complicated.
I mean the stuff that we justfigured out right now.
It was another thing with thelava thing, or if they could do
this lava set piece and we'relike maybe it's too big, you
(48:43):
know, maybe not.
We realized that there were somany different things that were
intertangled in that, that wereresolved and started again from
a big set piece where, like, whynot do it?
Why not keep this?
Joe Russo (48:58):
Because it tells the story in the best possible way
that we can do and but again, Ithink we're also very pragmatic
about the fact that a lot of youknow this scene and this
sequence.
While it will be VFX heavy, alot of it's going to be, you
know, set extensions andchanging elements that are
(49:20):
already there.
It's not going to be likecreating a full on character or,
you know, like and having themmove and interact with people.
It's more, you know, augmentingthe location.
And again, I think that'ssomething that, like your
average studio exec isn'tnecessarily going to know the
(49:40):
difference in.
But you know your visualeffects artists and your and
your, I think, savour VFXfilmmakers are, and it's more
just about being precise withyour shooting, you know.
And.
But I think the other problemwith VFX, like on a macro level
and I think we're seeing thisrecently more and more and more
(50:03):
with some of these really VFXheavy tent poles is, you know,
these executives kind of likevisual effects for one reason
more than practical effectsthey're not locked into the
thing.
So what I mean by that is likeif I shoot a head explosion or a
(50:26):
monster or something on set,we're kind of limited to that
thing.
I mean, sure, vfx can augmentit, but like that is the thing,
whereas it's if it's acompletely CG character or
completely CG background.
These execs can tinker and givenotes on it pretty much up
until like two or three weeksbefore release.
(50:48):
I think that's why we're seeingso many people being like oh,
these, these, you know thisMarvel movie or that DC movie.
The effects don't look as good.
It's because they just keep tokeep getting tinkered with,
whereas I think you look atsomething like Avatar 2 and the
VFX look incredible because youhad James Cameron putting his
(51:08):
foot down and saying this is theshot and we're gonna spend a
year making it perfect.
You know what I mean.
So I think it's unfortunatelyhow we're using.
Vfx is right now, I think, moreto a anxious fear driven execs
(51:29):
advantage over the filmmakersand unfortunately, I think with
AI now coming into topotentially augment and speed up
the effects, that's only goingto let them try more things and
it's not gonna help them run outthe clock any less.
I think it's just gonna makemore work and more choices and
(51:53):
more options that they're gonnahave to choose from.
Maybe the physical work of ashot will get faster, but I
think at the end of the day,they're still gonna take it down
to the wire over a single time,you know.
Paul DeNigris (52:07):
Yeah, I mean the overall reliance on VFX and also
this 11th hour noodling, rightliterally right up until the,
you know, the week of release.
Part of that is because VFX isnot a unionized trade, right, so
it's kind of the easy, the easytrade to abuse the hell out of.
(52:28):
I know I know both of you, asWGA members, are keenly aware of
, you know, the labor situationin the industry and all that,
and that's a.
That's a topic for another day.
But but yeah, to some degreethe VFX industry has been forced
to, you know, kind of race tothe bottom.
You know we're all, we're allbeing asked to, you know, cut
(52:51):
our bids but up our, ourproductivity, up our output, up
the number of iterations that wegive clients, and it's a, it's
a bad scenario, it's.
It's why we end up with, youknow, weird, mark Ruffalo head
floating on the Hulkbuster armorin Infinity War, right, yeah
one of the biggest movies of alltime and you then it's got some
(53:13):
really dodgy VFX in it.
I love my Marvel stuff, you know, but but still I look at it and
I go there's some overworkedand underpaid VFX artists in
that, in the chain there, andthat's why we end up with shots
that don't look good.
And unfortunately, thosechickens are coming home to
roost.
We're seeing more and more tentpoles that are just audiences
(53:36):
are getting.
Joe Russo (53:36):
Audiences are getting wise to it.
And the thing that was sofrustrating to me was I was
talking to an exec recently andthey said something to the
effect of well, it's thefilmmakers who are just
unfamiliar with VFX.
And I, you know, I took kind ofoffense to that because I'm
(53:58):
like or are you guys just havingthese filmmakers change these
things over and over and overagain?
You know, and I would, I would,almost, I would bet nine out of
ten times.
That's the issue, more so thanyou know, because I think a
director who is worth theirweight will listen to their VFX
(54:21):
artists.
They're not going to if theydon't know what they're doing.
You know, I don't think they'regoing to, as I want to believe
that I don't think they're goingto tell a VFX artist how to do
something.
It's nine times out of ten it'sgonna be the other way around.
You know it's, we can do this.
Okay, I would love it to looklike X.
(54:42):
This is how we accomplish it,you know it needs to be a
symbiotic relationship.
Paul DeNigris (54:47):
Right, it needs to be you as the filmmaker,
saying, here's the thing I wantto accomplish, paul, how do we
do it?
And I'm me saying, okay, here'swhere our limitations are,
here's how we can work aroundthat, here's, yeah, here's what
we can, we can kind of figureout.
Here's a system that we can youknow, engineer to make this
happen.
And that's why that's whatJames Cameron and the Avatar
movies are so successful.
Because he is, he is both sidesof that equation.
(55:09):
He's a VFX guy by trade as wellas a visionary director, so he
can, he can look at it from bothsides and say this is what I
want to do, and I know this iswhat I have to communicate to my
, my VFX team to make it happenyep but it doesn't happen
without that, without thosestrong relationships, without if
(55:30):
the director is not in aposition to tell their execs
know, like James Cameron is.
Joe Russo (55:36):
I think that's where you find yourself in this
never-ending example ofiterations.
I saw a funny joke that wentaround a couple months ago about
you know, ai and it was likewell, if AI is completely
dependent on the clients tellingit's what it wants, it will,
it'll never be functionalbecause they never know what
(55:58):
they want right and, and youknow, I think that's why, you
know, a director ideally hassome idea of what he or she
wants, and and it's their job,just like it's their job to pull
a performance out of an actoror to, you know, pull a great
script out of a writer orwhatever, whatever piece of the
(56:21):
crew they're working with, thatthe the biggest part is they
have to communicate their visionright to the artists that
they're working with.
And if you have an exec who isbehind that director, stepping
on that vision every step of theway, I think that's how we find
(56:41):
ourselves in situations wherethese execs are getting really,
really, really overworked yeah,and you know that's why I choose
to work, to work forindependent filmmakers
predominantly.
Paul DeNigris (56:53):
You know I've worked on studio stuff, I've
worked on network stuff, butwhere I get the most fulfillment
as a visual effects artist,visual effects supervisor,
whatever is working withfilmmakers like you guys, who,
who are passionate, who arecommitted, who are focused on
the story, not on the focusgroup, not on the, you know,
(57:14):
pixel fucking, as we call it.
You know, just just givingnotes for the sake of giving
notes.
You know it is where the VFXartists can be partners.
Right, we're helping you tellthe story.
We're not just a, you know acommodity that can be, you know,
swapped in and out.
It's, it's there's a, there's acreative partnership here and
(57:36):
we're helping you tell the story.
And that that's why I'm makinga podcast called VFX for Indies
and not, you know, vfx insidethe studio system.
There's tons of podcasts outthere about chat, you know about
the, you know the VFX of Marveland the VFX of Star Wars.
We don't need more of that.
You know.
What I want is to empower thefilmmakers who are outside the
(57:57):
system to realize that there arelots of ways that they can use
VFX to tell their stories toexpand their canvas without
killing their budget, and theyjust have to be smart about it
and apply a lot of the thingsthat you've talked about in
terms of preparation andcommunication, and oh, I'd like
to add one more thing real fastand this is speaking
specifically to the indiefilmmakers is that and this goes
(58:19):
for, I think, everyone who doesfilm is that there are two
things that no filmmaker everhas enough of, and it's time and
money.
Chris LaMont (58:27):
And when you're working, you know, with a budget
, especially as an independentfilmmaker, you know the dollars
are tight.
And if you haven't done andworked with a visual effects
professional like Paul, you know, basically, you are paying on a
shot-for-shot basis, and havingthat and understanding that in
your budgeting, I think, needsto you need to be careful,
(58:50):
filmmaker, because you knowsomething like a cable that's
sitting in your in a shot thatneeds to be erased.
That costs money.
So maybe it's a lot smarter tolook through the camera and make
sure there isn't a cable in theshot or the boom shadow isn't
there, because you are workingwith finite resources and they
aren't that.
They're not studio money,they're not millions and
(59:11):
millions of dollars.
However, the other thing thatyou have to remember is that, as
a filmmaker, that you alsodon't, if you don't have a lot
of money, you know, is it what?
Is it good, fast and cheap?
Right guys, you get to onlytake two right.
So if you want your movie to begood and you want to be done
fast, right, it's not going tobe cheap.
(59:32):
If you want your movie to bedone fast, right and cheap, it's
not going to be good.
But if you have and understandhow important it is to allocate
your time, because when Paul Iknow that this is a lot you,
because you do love independentfilmmakers so much, and when you
do work with them, but the ideathat you can't expect things to
(59:56):
happen on a small budgetamazingly quickly, you have to
be cognizant of the visualeffects people that you're
working with and if they'regiving you a break on a rate
that it may not happen as fastas you want it to be, and so
it's really kind ofunderstanding that.
You know, and I heard, you know, ron Howard complains he never
(01:00:18):
has enough time or has enoughmoney for his movies as well.
So understand that if you wantit to be, you know, good, and
you want to be done cheap, it'snot going to be done fast, all
right.
So you have to understand whatyour limitations are and you
know, yeah, if you want things,if you want to throw money at
stuff to make things happenquickly.
(01:00:39):
You absolutely can do that, butespecially with visual effects
and let's be honest, I mean whenyou're talking about the
willing suspension of disbeliefvisual effects are the most
important thing.
Bad sci-fi you know bad sci-fiwhen you see it, because it's
bad visual effects.
That's why, when Star Warsinitially came out the first
Star Wars in 77 the effects wereso good that people bought into
(01:01:01):
the whole movie.
Anyone can spot bad visualeffects in a heartbeat.
So being able to understandthat you need to allow enough
time, you need to budgetaccordingly, I think those are
the most important things,because at the end of the day,
if the effects aren't good, noone's buying what you're selling
.
But you also have to workwithin budget as well, that's.
Paul DeNigris (01:01:22):
That's a great place to stop.
So, gentlemen, what's up nextfor you?
What, what projects do you havecoming out, and where can
people find out more about whatyou're up to?
Joe Russo (01:01:31):
well, the big thing that we're facing at the time of
this recording is the WGA is onstrike against the major motion
picture studios and streamers,and Chris and I are part of that
strike.
So, you know, we've got acouple projects that we're ready
to try it.
(01:01:51):
We've been working withproducers on that'll.
You know we'll get back to whenthis is over, but I think our
immediate focus is just, youknow, getting getting through
the strike so that we have weall have jobs moving forward and
and there's an industry movingforward because it all starts on
the page.
Paul DeNigris (01:02:13):
It doesn't matter how how well I push pixels
around, if you guys don't giveme stories to help tell as
feature film screenwriters, youknow a lot of the work we do is
on spec.
Chris LaMont (01:02:24):
It's us coming up with an idea on our own, us
putting in the three to fourmonths to be able to bring that
script to a place where we'rehappy with it, that eventually
you could go to market, and sothat's what we're working on
right now is we've got some specscripts that we're working on
that when this strike ends, wewill be able to take it out to
you know, producers will be ableto take it out.
We have, you know, producerattached to one of them, but for
(01:02:46):
us it's, you know, we're stillstaying razor sharp in regards
to being creative.
Being a, being a screenwriteron strike doesn't necessarily
mean that we're not writing.
So by the hopefully by the400th time that people hear this
, we're not gonna be on strikeanymore and we'll have some
really great things to tell youin our follow-up podcast that
(01:03:07):
I'm sure that you'll be.
You'll be figuring out as soonas we done because you this was
such a great to conversation forus.
Paul, thank you so much forgiving us an opportunity to talk
with you and your viewers andaudience yeah, thanks so much
for imparting your wisdom to tothe audience.
I really appreciate it ourpleasure you know you got you
know, joe, joe Russo tweets.
Paul DeNigris (01:03:28):
Joe Russo tweets.
Yes, joe is a prolific,prolific tweeter.
And also, if you really want tobe entertained, ask him
sometime about his connection tothe Marvel Joe Russo, because
he's not that guy.
What?
Chris LaMont (01:03:42):
do you?
Joe Russo (01:03:54):
mean Marvel Joe.
Paul DeNigris (01:03:55):
Russo.
There you go.
Thanks so much for joining uson today's episode of the VFX
for Indies podcast.
You can find transcripts,images and other cool stuff at
our website, vfx4indiescom.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, follow, like, rate,
review, comment on eitherYouTube or your favorite podcast
(01:04:18):
app.
On behalf of everyone atFoxTrad X-ray, I'm chief pixel
pusher, paul DeGrasse, and weall thank you so much for your
support of the show.
See you next time.
What do alien spiders, sadistic projectionists
, nanny nightmares and BruceWillis have in common?
Find out this week on the VFXfor Indies podcast.
With me today are Joe Russo andChris Lamont, a writer producer
(00:34):
team that I've known for anumber of years.
They recently wrote and that'sa recently wrote the Bruce
Willis action, or hard kill.
They wrote a movie called theAu pair nightmare that I was
lucky enough to do some visualeffects for, and they have
written the upcoming Netflixhorror movie, the Inheritance,
(00:55):
among many other things thatthey will tell you about.
Welcome to the show, gentlemen.
Chris LaMont (01:00):
Well, thank you, paul, it's a pleasure to be here
.
Joe Russo (01:04):
Hello Paul.
Paul DeNigris (01:07):
So I've known Chris for close to 20 years now.
Chris was the founder of thePhoenix Film Festival, so I know
him through that.
And if I haven't mentioned itbefore, I will say it many, many
more times to come the PhoenixFilm Festival is my favorite
film festival in the world and Imake sure that I participate in
it in some way every singleyear.
(01:28):
For example, chris and I run astation at the in the, in the
big party tent every year duringwhat's called Kids Day and it
happens to be a big surprise,happens to be about visual
effects we set up a big greenscreen and let the kids do their
, do their little skits on thegreen screen and send them home
with a composite of themselves,you know, with SpongeBob or
(01:50):
something like that.
So it's a lot of fun.
And Chris, chris and I havecollaborated on a lot of things.
And then I've known Joe sincehe was a student of Chris's back
at Arizona State University forquite a while.
Joe was never a student of mine.
He was long gone from ASUbefore I started teaching there.
Joe Russo (02:08):
Long gone.
Paul DeNigris (02:09):
I'm old, but I have avidly followed his career
since since he left ASU andmoved out to Los Angeles.
Chris LaMont (02:16):
As have I.
I have also followed thatcareer pretty much.
Joe Russo (02:20):
Unfortunately, we're handcuffed together.
Chris LaMont (02:23):
Yes, my second wife.
Joe Russo (02:25):
He has to, he has to follow along.
Paul DeNigris (02:30):
Nice.
Well, that's a great segue.
Why don't you guys give do alittle introduction of
yourselves and your careerhighlights, both individually
and as a partnership?
Chris, you want to go first.
Chris LaMont (02:41):
Sure, you know I started making movies a long
time ago when I was in fourthgrade, and very prolific.
I was just still be doing ittoday directed and written,
directed number of way, microbudget features.
As Paul mentioned that I did, Idid start the Phoenix Film
Festival.
I also produce a number offeature films that have gotten
(03:05):
national internationaldistribution.
I switched from writing,directing, to producing and now
I'm working with Joe Russo hereas a screenwriters.
We're both in the WGA and we'vehad a lot of success and we
hope to continue doing that much, much more.
You know, depending on what themarket will bear and how much
(03:26):
the producers and studios willbear us, I think, is the best
way to put that.
Joe Russo (03:31):
So yeah, I mean spoiler alert.
I met Chris at Arizona Statewhen he was my teacher.
He was the youngest facultymember at the film school at the
time and really wasn't a filmschool, to be honest.
That's true.
It was barely a film school.
(03:52):
I hadn't even officially startedyet.
The film school isn'tofficially yet Right, and you
know Chris, chris is apolarizing figure with students
because he gives them honestfeedback and you know, film
students, who are invincible infilm school, don't always like
(04:15):
to hear that they're wrong.
I was under the impression thatfeedback is good, notes are
good.
I took the feedback he gave meon a short and I applied it and
it ended up getting into a filmfestival.
So I was like, oh, he givesgood notes.
So I continued to go back tohim, even though that was the
(04:38):
only class I ever had with Chris.
I continued to go back to himto get feedback on my subsequent
shorts that I made throughschool.
We worked professionally forthe first time together on a
movie he produced where you know.
I think it was a reallychallenging shoot and he and I
bonded through that process.
Chris LaMont (05:02):
And when I brought a few ASU grads on and you know
, joe has always been a directorand so I said, well, the best
way to learn how to be adirector is to be the assistant
to the director.
And so Joe, joe is theassistant director on a feature,
and if you want to look it upon IMDb, you're more than happy
to do that.
Joe Russo (05:18):
To the director.
Chris LaMont (05:20):
Assistant to the director.
Yes, there's a difference.
Yes, and that was a greatexperience for sure.
Joe Russo (05:26):
So we basically bonded on that and when I
started to think about movingout to Los Angeles I knew I
needed some kind of a callingcard.
And Chris and I collaborated ona short film called Takeout
which ended up playing at abunch of festivals and won some
awards and basically gave me theammunition I needed to help get
(05:49):
me a job out in LA.
So since then we've kind ofbeen.
You know, I worked as adevelopment executive for a few
years, which is where I kind ofgot my chops as a producer and
while I was doing that Chris andI were quietly riding away at
night.
Kind of our first big success onthe ride in front was we set a
(06:11):
project up with Will Smith'scompany.
And that was kind of when I waslike maybe I should be focusing
on this more than justsomething I do in the evenings
with Chris.
And so I left that developmentjob and we proceeded to have
like a really nice little runwhere I was.
You know it's a hard thing totransition from development
(06:34):
executive to creator andbecause- Especially in the town.
Chris LaMont (06:39):
You know, I mean Joe.
Everyone knew Joe as an execand so suddenly he's walking
around as a creative.
And everyone's like I didn'tknow you could write Joe.
Joe Russo (06:51):
Well, and they didn't until, you know, chris and I
landed in the agent and manager,and then we ended up getting on
this thing called the bloodlist, which is basically the
best horror scripts of the year,is voted on by execs around
town, and we proceeded to go ona run where we got on that list
three years in a row with threedifferent scripts.
(07:11):
Two of them have been producednow, the third is set up with a
producer.
So, you know, it kind of helpedtransition me from being an
exec to, you know, a full onwriter.
And you know, so that's when,you know, we started selling
(07:32):
things and things startedgetting made.
We started getting hired towrite stuff and suddenly we've
got like a nice little body ofwork.
Chris LaMont (07:38):
So and I think the important thing that you can
tell, you know and take with youall of the listeners and
viewers out there is that youknow.
One of the reasons why there'sbeen some success for Joe and
myself is because Joe'srelationships that he's made
throughout the years while hewas a development exec.
It's so crucial to benetworking when you are in this
(08:00):
industry.
It doesn't matter where you'reat, what department you're in,
what station you are, whetheryou're a veteran who's been
making movies for years or it'syour first film or streaming
project or TV series or what,even with short films that
you're making on your own, it'sall about networking and talking
to people and getting your nameout there.
The one thing I always rememberis this idea that it's not you
(08:23):
know everyone says it's not youknow what you know, it's who you
know.
It's more important, it's notwho you know, it's who knows you
, and so I think that was a realgreat you know a real great
thing to watch how Joe'snetworking has really kind of
helped to jumpstart a lot of thework that we've had and a lot
of the sales that we've made anda lot of the works that's been
(08:44):
created.
So I think that's somethingthat everyone can remember, yeah
.
Joe Russo (08:47):
I got really great advice before I moved to LA from
an entrepreneur named LarrySheffield and he said when you
go out to LA, try to meet twonew people a week, because if
you meet two new people a weekwhich doesn't seem like a huge
daunting thing by the end of theyear you've met over 100 new
people.
Right, and that was advice thatI really took to heart.
(09:10):
And once I moved up to being adevelopment exec and I had an
expense account, it became a loteasier to go meet two new
people a week.
But you know and Chris and Iabsolutely benefited from that I
mean, our first screenplay saletruly came from kind of a
happenstance situation like that.
(09:32):
Someone I had met on a generalmeeting.
You know he and I partnered upon some projects.
We went to Lionsgate for ameeting on one of those projects
and while we were in the lobbywe bumped into the producer of
the soft franges and he happenedto be neighbors with my friend
(09:53):
and as we were walking away,matt says to me gosh, I wish I
had something that was like sawto give to Mark over here.
And I said, you know, it'sreally funny, matt, like we
actually just signed with thegrocery agency off of a script
that is kind of saw like, and hegoes really, and he turns
(10:14):
around and across the lobby hegoes hey, mark, he goes.
Yeah, matt, I'm going to sendyou a script.
It's really great.
And then he goes, can't wait toread it.
Mark turns around, or Mattturns around to me and goes it
better be good.
You bet, you bet, and that washow we sold our first screenplay
.
Chris LaMont (10:34):
It was a bloodless script too, so I mean we knew
that teeth.
Joe Russo (10:38):
Yeah Well, it wasn't a bloodless script then, though
it hadn't even gone out to themarket yet.
Chris LaMont (10:42):
Oh, oh, that's right, you're right, yeah, yeah,
we got an early look at it.
Joe Russo (10:46):
We got an early look at it and they liked it and they
hemmed and hawed and then, whenit got on the blood list, they
made an offer for it the nextday because they didn't want it
to get scripted up by anybodyelse.
But so yeah, but it goes toshow you, I had a relationship
with someone who had arelationship with another person
who ended up having access tomoney and they bought the script
(11:09):
from us.
Paul DeNigris (11:12):
That's a great story and you're right, this
business is all aboutrelationships.
I mean, most of the VFX workthat I do now has come to me
through a producer who I met,because I handed somebody a
business card at a party at thePhoenix Film Festival and then
my business card made the roundsand landed in the hands of a
VFX producer who has become mypartner and we've worked
(11:34):
together for five years off ofthat one business card.
It is a business ofrelationships.
The other thing I wanted to tagonto.
You said Chris gives good notes.
Chris and I became friendsbecause he saw my feature that I
wrote and produced and directedand he said there's something
(11:58):
here.
It's not good right now, but Imean he was a little nicer than
that.
Chris LaMont (12:03):
But just a little nicer.
I don't know why anybody talksto me when you start.
Paul DeNigris (12:10):
He said there's something good in there.
If you're willing to sit withme, I've got some ideas.
And we sat and we spent anafternoon.
We chopped a half hour out ofthat movie and then it started
getting into film festivals andit went into distribution and
all of that.
Joe Russo (12:24):
And so.
Paul DeNigris (12:25):
Chris and I have been have been buds ever since,
and that, to me, illustrates oneof the key takeaways that I've
had in my career is notes aregood.
Notes are how we grow.
Joe Russo (12:40):
Yeah, they can.
You're in differentperspectives.
They can be.
It depends on who's giving them.
But yeah, they can be good.
You should be open to all notes, but you should also be
discerning about how toimplement Right.
Paul DeNigris (12:56):
I think that's all.
Notes are an opportunity forgrowth.
There you go, that's.
That's a better.
They're good or bad, they'reopportunities I know they're
good, but they're an opportunityfor growth.
Joe Russo (13:04):
No, I it's funny, I, Chris has set me up with some
some folks to give notes to overthe years as well, and they
come back to him and they'relike Joe's so nice, joe's so
wonderful, bum bub, bub bub, andhe's like.
He's like I don't get it.
He's like when I get peoplenotes, they tell me I'm a jerk.
He's like what are you doing?
That's so different.
Chris LaMont (13:26):
I have to hold.
I have retooled the way that Ido work with notes and and I've
really tried to emphasize thepositive more.
Joe Russo (13:34):
I think it's more of a well nurturing kind of kind of
way as opposed to we were, wewere benefits of the other, the
other route.
Paul DeNigris (13:46):
But but yes, absolutely, and and and Chris,
you're not alone.
I'm I'm sure tons and tons ofmy students over the years would
say that that my my notes werewere hard to swallow.
Again, the ones who took mynotes are the ones that are
working in the industry.
you know the the the folks whowanted my feedback, who wanted
(14:07):
to grow.
They're the ones who are, youknow, 2d supervisors on Star
Trek and 3D supervisors atMarvel and things like that
they're.
They're the ones who are outthere doing it because they
learned early on.
Notes are an opportunity forgrowth and that's how you get
better as a writer, as a visualeffects artist, as a director,
as an editor, any any creative,technical, you know position in
(14:28):
this industry If you get goodnotes that help you grow, that
help you see beyond your ownability, right, because we we
don't know what we don't know,right, so we're only ever as
good as as our current knowledgeand notes.
Thoughtful, constructive notesare always a good way to grow
beyond your, your currentlimitations.
Chris LaMont (14:49):
So now I just want to say one thing real fast is
that you know I I don't thenotes that when, when, and it's
great when you have a lot of asupport system, that gives you
great feedback.
But the one thing that I alwaystell you know, my students and
anyone that I'm, I'm mentoringand anything like that is is
that you shouldn't ask, youdon't want people to tell you
(15:11):
how good your script is, becausethat's not going to help you.
The most important thing is totell me what's wrong with it or
how can I fix it in your opinion.
Because, like you said, likethat's how you grow.
But, more importantly, it'slike I don't need you to tell me
that it's good.
I kind of know already it'sgood.
I wouldn't have made it likethat, but you know, for you to
(15:32):
be able to drill down whatdidn't work for you, that to me,
is the most valuable thing.
And to and to be surrounded bypeople who are willing to give
you that honest opinion, nomatter how it's, delivered, by
people that you respect, who youtrust to give you very
objective notes, because theyjust want to see the work get
better.
I think that's, that's the mostimportant thing.
Paul DeNigris (15:51):
Totally agree.
So I want to turn theconversation to visual effects
and, like I said, you guys wroteand produced the AWAPair
Nightmare.
Remind me again what networkthat was for Lifetime.
Trailer (16:05):
Taylor, do you really think you're ready to move into
an entirely new place withcomplete strangers?
You don't punch in at nine andout at five.
Doctor and Mrs Caleb are veryprivate people.
The job is 24 seven.
There's no social life here.
You give yourself over toanother family completely.
Chris LaMont (16:25):
It was an independent film that got sold
to the Lifetime network, so itwasn't made specifically for
Lifetime, but yes, it did, andwhen it debuted we had like what
, that's three quarters of amillion viewers the first time,
and the next time it aired Ithink it was another like almost
we had a total of almost amillion people watch that movie,
(16:46):
which was very, veryinteresting.
Joe Russo (16:46):
Sure, it would have been nice if we had gotten some
residuals on it.
Chris LaMont (16:49):
Well, yeah, I mean residuals are always a concern.
Joe Russo (16:56):
The joys of non-union production.
Chris LaMont (16:58):
Yeah absolutely.
Joe Russo (16:59):
But yeah, no, it's crazy to me.
That movie's it's aired so manytimes and it's done so well on
VOD Like just to give you anidea like our composer on that
movie has made more money than Imade.
Writing and directing hits offof the back end, which is like
(17:19):
wild to me.
But anyway, I digress.
Yeah a lot of people have seenthe movie, which has been nice.
Paul DeNigris (17:25):
That's great yeah that's great, and you guys
asked me to do a couple of shots.
We changed a storefront.
Yes, you know, it's a simplesign replacement Pretty typical
Bretton Butter kind of thingthat we do, particularly for
independent filmmakers.
We do a lot of that.
Oh, this name isn't cleared.
We either need to erase it orreplace it.
You know, stuff like thatReally really simple.
Joe Russo (17:46):
Yeah, it was a very.
It's a domestic thriller, Ibelieve is the genre that the
producers classify it under.
And you know, you're in a housewith people.
There's not a lot of room forVFX elements and it was more.
Yeah, I think cleanup wasprobably the best way to
(18:08):
describe most of what the VFXshots were.
It was, you know, it was if weneeded to replace something on
the face of a phone or there wasa magazine thing where they
realized the background of theor the back of the magazine that
had hadn't been cleared, thingslike that.
(18:29):
And then, yeah, and then, youknow, the budget for our VFX was
very low and our producer didnot feel that we should.
We needed to change thestorefront of the sign because
quote unquote nobody would be,nobody would care.
But I cared and Paul Krammhelped us out with that and I'm
(18:53):
glad we did it because I think,like it's the little things,
like that, it's the littledetails that matter on, you know
, a movie's accumulative effectof all those little things, and
if you have one person whowatches the movie and realizes
the storefront isn't the samething as what the characters are
calling it, suddenly they'vebeen taken out of the movie, you
(19:15):
know.
So it meant a lot that you camein and helped with that stuff.
Chris LaMont (19:18):
You know, and the other thing too, joe, to just,
you know, throw this out toeveryone is that that shot we
knew that shot would have to bein the movie because it was the
establishing shot of therestaurant.
So that's actually where Joeand I appear in the film in our
cameo, because we knew it had tobe in there.
I'm like we better be in thismovie.
(19:40):
So we actually plopped out thetable right in front of the shot
.
So yeah.
Sharp-eyed viewers, and I don'tknow if you knew that, Paul,
when you made that shot.
That's how important that workof yours was, because it was the
shot that Joe and I were in.
Joe Russo (19:55):
Yeah, Chris was far more cynically motivated than I
was.
Chris LaMont (20:01):
Well, I did get in the movie later.
I did have quite the scenestealing.
You know extra role as well.
But that's Joe's AlfredHitchcock moment, right there.
Joe Russo (20:10):
That's right.
That's the only thing that Iappear in the movie in Nice.
That's correct.
Paul DeNigris (20:14):
Nice.
So shots like that typicallyget discovered in post.
Yeah, correct, you know thetype of cleanup stuff that's
what we knew going in.
Joe Russo (20:25):
Right, we knew that's why we you know we shot it more
as a plate than anything elsethere was there was, the camera
wasn't moving, the it was lockedoff because we knew we were
going to have to, probably wewere going to have to change
that sign out and there was nopractical way to put it for
production, to put a new sign upthere with our budgets and our
(20:47):
schedule.
So it was kind of always knownit was going to be a VFX shot.
I think the producers in theirmind were thinking, oh, we'll
tell Joe it'll be a VFX shot andthen we'll try to cut it later.
You know which is which is afun little trick, I guess.
But but but yeah, we went in.
(21:07):
When I know that there are goingto be cleanup jobs like that, I
try my best not to to move thecamera around too much, because
I know that's where things gethairy and difficult, and I do.
I know that because I did a lotof short films and a lot of
those short films had, you know,some level of cleanup VFX
(21:33):
incorporated into them and Idefinitely remember which ones
were a bear for the VFX artistsand which ones were not.
So I try to be conscientiousabout that stuff.
But yeah, I mean, sometimes Ithink you know, you, you realize
like, oh shit, there's a cablein the background that that kind
(21:55):
of fun stuff I think youdiscover and post, you know
right, and then then you reallyhope that the camera is not
moving too much.
Paul DeNigris (22:05):
Well, it's good that you, you were able to take
the lessons you learned fromyour short films and the VFX.
You know you're short films andand and take those with you
into making features and to beable to say, ok, I know this is
going to be a VFX shot, so Ineed to, you know, simplify the,
the setup or or lock it off.
You know you're going into itinformed, you're not just
(22:26):
flailing the camera around andexpecting a VFX artist to be
able to figure it out.
That's.
That's something we see Not notall that common anymore, but
you know, early on, when Istarted my company, a lot of
clients, they would come and itwould be hey, we discovered
after the fact, after we shot it, we'd like to do VFX on this
(22:47):
and it's.
They haven't shot it with thatin mind and it just makes the
process much more expensive,much more difficult, much more
time consuming.
So it's, it's.
It's really great to hear that,that you were so hands on with
things in your, your short film.
Yeah, experience that you areable to take that into into your
future.
Joe Russo (23:06):
My my, my senior thesis.
I wanted to put a.
It was a, it was a Santa Clausmovie and I wanted to put
Santa's sleigh on top of arooftop.
And so I went to the mosttalented VFX person that we went
to school with the time, JJChalupnik, and I said how am I
going to get, you know, a Santasleigh and reindeer up on top of
(23:30):
this roof?
You know?
And so we.
He basically said OK, when youshoot the shot, do this, this
and this, and you know.
Then he took basically aChristmas ornament of a sleigh
and he put it on top of the roof, so that it you know it ended
up looking great.
So I kind of knew then, ifthere's something that I don't
(23:54):
know how to do, I need to asksomeone who does know how to do
it, so that I shoot it in a waythat's not going to make their
life worse on the back end.
I also think like if you can goin and you make those decisions
earlier on, not only are yousaving the VFX artist a headache
(24:15):
, I think you can conceptualizethe shot a lot better too, and
then I think ultimately resultsin a better quality VFX shot at
the end result.
All right, that's all fortonight.
Paul DeNigris (24:30):
Goodbye, you nailed it, joe.
I mean, that's that's.
That's.
The whole point of this podcastis to talk about this sort of
stuff and educate independentfilmmakers who've never used
visual effects before, to savethem from making those mistakes
that we all made early on in ourcareer.
(24:51):
And to you know, to get that tothat point, you don't have to
talk to me, but talk to somebody.
Right, you're going to use VFXin your film.
You don't have to call me, butfind somebody who knows what the
hell they're doing and ask themhow do I shoot this?
That you will save yourself somuch time and anguish and money
(25:12):
and agony.
Chris LaMont (25:13):
Well, the other thing too, though, paul, I think
is that, and I know, this issomething that I'm sure you
drill into a lot of your viewersand audience is that bringing
in the visual effects supervisorif you know there's going to be
a good amount of visual effects, bringing them on early in the
process to address a lot ofthese things, as opposed to
(25:37):
having to play catch up, isalways the best way to go as a
filmmaker, because you know itshouldn't be a situation where
you are in post and you realizethere's one thing that let he
race a cable.
It's not that if you're puttingtogether something that's pretty
comprehensive in regards tolike I know I'm going to be
using effects and it's not goingto be a cable or a sign replace
, you know that it's importantto go to someone well in advance
(26:00):
talking about storyboards,talking about shot.
You know shot set up and thatkind of thing, and it's not just
, I think, getting advice, butif you engage someone to be your
visual effects supervisor andbeing able to bring them into
all the phases of creativity inadvance, it does nothing but
make the entire pipeline work alot smoother and also I think
(26:21):
that the effects end up being alot better than they would have
been.
If you're playing, you knowcatch up at the end.
Joe Russo (26:26):
I've had both experiences.
I think, paul, you know one ofthose experiences is, if you
want to talk about it, yeah, soobviously you guys, your scripts
, are always on the blood list.
Paul DeNigris (26:41):
You're clearly writing in a very specific genre
horror and I know, joe, you'rea horror aficionado.
I know you also host a podcast,a horror podcast, which you can
tell us about, sure, postmortem, with Mick Garris, a horror
legend, legendary horrordirector, and so you obviously
(27:07):
have an affinity for that genreand that genre sort of lives and
dies on its special effects onset and its visual effects in
post, and particularly how theydovetail together.
So, yeah, a few years back, joewas producing a film, an
anthology series, calledNightmare Cinema.
(27:27):
I'm the projectionist, thecurator of 100 years of
nightmares Trapped in a silverscreen that never forgets.
Welcome to my nightmare.
(27:52):
And there was a sequence thatinvolved extra terrestrial
spiders that were attackingpeople, that came out of this
meteor and were attacking people, and it was a.
It was a big job and I was mycompany was one of the companies
that that bid on it and forvarious reasons, we didn't win
it.
I mean, you don't win them all,obviously.
And there Joe was not the onlyproducer on the film.
(28:14):
Had he been, then maybe wewould have won it, but he had
other producers that he neededto to also, you know, factor
their, their network, theirrelationships with it would be
affects people into the mix, andso it, you know it passed by,
passed us by, which is fine.
I have that recently had achance to catch up with the film
(28:35):
and it looks great.
It's, it's a lot of fun.
It's it's a kind of an updateon Creep show, one of my, one of
my favorites, from the, fromthe genre, from way back, and
the spiders look great and youknow to talk about.
You know you could talk aboutthat.
Some of the challenges.
I know you guys have practicalspiders on set.
You had a whole bunch ofdigital spiders got added to all
(28:56):
of all of that sort of stuff.
Joe Russo (28:58):
Nightmare Cinema was a big challenge on the VFX front
and a lot of it was for reasonswe already talked about.
Well, you know, in making sureyou're engaging the VFX artists
early on, if you can make surethey're present for when you're
shooting, if you can make surethey're you know they're, you
(29:20):
know they're there is involvedearly on and conceptually as
possible, we kind of got hate touse the word bamboozled, but we
kind of got bamboozled on thismovie when it came to the VFX I
mean movies almost five yearsold now I think we can talk
about this.
So you know, what happened wasI had been trying to lobby for
(29:46):
the company that my friend JJwas working at at that point.
It was called Muse VFX andthey're a big.
They're a big vendor, they do alot of big TV stuff and I had
recently become friends with oneof their most experienced
artists there and he brought usin and they did a bid, they did
a whole presentation and wereally wanted to use them, mick
(30:07):
really wanted to use them, butthey were underbid by another
VFX house that our financiershad worked with in the past and
what I did not know was somebodyowed somebody money and part of
the reason we were funnelingthis job to them was because of
(30:28):
that, and there was a lot of illwill between the financiers and
this company and unfortunatelyNightmare Cinema was the
recipient of that kind offractured relationship, let's
say.
And so I don't think that theywere as engaged conceptually as
(30:50):
they should have been, and whenthey were having issues on some
of the other movies that theywere working with this financier
on, they kind of stopped workon Nightmare Cinema as a result,
and so a lot of NightmareCinema got made in a bit of a
VFX vacuum, so to speak.
There's one segment that is anexception to this and that was
(31:14):
David Slade's segment.
In the movie he brought all ofhis own kind of VFX people to
the mix who he'd worked with andthey'd done Walking Dead and
lots of other big, big shows.
I think they might have doneBlack Mirror with him, if I
remember correctly.
But so his VFX are greatbecause they were involved
conceptually from the movie.
(31:36):
They were involved in how theeffects were going to augment
the special effects on set, howthey were going to change the
landscape.
I mean his segment of VFX lookincredible.
There are some segments inNightmare Cinema where I think
it's very clear that there wasnot a big preconceptualization
(32:00):
going in and I think that thosesequences suffer a bit for it.
But there was a moment in timewhere Paul's right.
One of the most ambitioussequences in the movie was the
scene with the aliens.
And we had no aliens and Ireally didn't want to go and
(32:22):
have the conversation withAlejandro Briget of maybe
they're just going to beinvisible aliens.
You know, maybe they're justgoing to be invisible aliens.
So you know, and we knew thatthis was one of the best
segments in the movie, we knewthat we had to try to support it
(32:42):
and but we knew we didn't haveany money because basically all
the money we had paid to thisVFX company they took and they
walked away with because theywere owed so much money from the
financiers already.
So we had basically no moneyleft.
And you know, paul came in withan amazing bid for it and I
(33:04):
wanted to push the work his way,but the reality was we just
didn't have any money left andMcGarris had a relationship with
the VFX producer who wasbasically going to do it as a
favor.
So that's what happened.
You know it was we needed toget bailed out by somebody and
we didn't have any money.
(33:24):
And then you know, free 50 wasthe right price, so so and they
did it.
And I mean these were guys, Imean really established VFX
people.
I wasn't like, you know, we gotlike what?
Basically what happened wasthey had just done the the Neil
(33:46):
DeGrasse Tyson show on Fox.
God, what the hell was it?
Cosmos, cosmos.
They just done Cosmos and theymade a ton of money off of that
job.
So they basically had thepeople in place and the money in
place to just do this like funlittle side thing.
Chris LaMont (34:05):
You know.
So we basically shot said justone more shot.
Joe Russo (34:12):
But you know it was, it was.
That's that's how, that's howour butts got saved on that, you
know.
So it was.
It was really hard because Ithink, like there are there, you
know, I think that segmentturned out really well and I
think David Slade's segmentturned out really well, for you
know the right reasons.
I think some of the VFX andsome of the other segments could
(34:34):
have been better, but they were.
They were really more aconsequence of being left, you
know, holding the bag by, youknow, these financiers in this
company, which we will not name.
Trailer (34:48):
No, if you want to go on IMDB, I'm sure you might
figure it out.
Chris LaMont (34:51):
Yeah, it's kind of an extreme circumstance but
these things happen.
Paul DeNigris (34:54):
You know there are.
There are lots of personalitiesin our business and lots of
lots of interesting characterswho, who you know, find
themselves in situations.
That's all I can say.
No-transcript.
You know, I went and I did ashort film right after an
Amherst Cinema called MidnightClear and it has a really big
visual effects elements at theclimax of the short.
Joe Russo (35:18):
And you know I made sure that my I made sure that JJ
Chalupik and I were talkingthrough storyboards that had a
(35:38):
time that we both had a reallystrong idea of what it was going
to look like, so that when hewas on set supervising those
shots, you know, it was lit theway it was we wanted it to be,
it was framed the way we wantedit to be and I think, you know,
even though that was a $12,000short film, that VFX shot looks,
(35:58):
you know, like a severalhundred thousand dollar one
because we did it right.
So I try to take some of themistakes we made on Nightmare
Cinema and, and you know, applythem in a way that was was far
more successful in the short andI and you know I learned a lot
(36:18):
going through that experiencethat I will hopefully not make
those mistakes again.
Chris LaMont (36:23):
Moving forward, yeah, joe, I remember on that
picture I mean I think that wasthe one thing that you were
saying and I agree with you it'slike if that shot doesn't work,
the whole movie doesn't work,and so that so much care was put
into that by Joe and the teambecause literally the entire
tone of the film, the emotionalarc of the characters,
(36:45):
everything that happened, thatwas the big payoff.
And so you know, I mean visualeffects, you know, can do a lot
more than just, you know,replace a sign or whatever.
I mean the crux of the of thatshort film, and it's an
excellent film.
And I'm glad, joe, by the way,that you did not reveal the
content of that shot, sohopefully they can go to
JoeRussoFilmscom, right, andthey could watch, they could
(37:08):
watch Midnight Clear right.
Joe Russo (37:09):
It's also available on Shutter right now too.
But yeah, anyway, yeah, no,it's, it's.
We're really proud of how thatturned out and and but again, it
went.
It was because I had all thisexperience, you know, working on
Shorter's JJ over the years.
It's because I had, I had thisnightmare experiment experience,
pun intended, on our murdercinema, with the effects that
(37:32):
that I was able to take all ofthat experience and apply it in
a really meaningful way for thestorytelling, you know.
It's also why, when, you know,we turned around and shot a pair
a couple of years ago and wecalled you and we were like, hey
, we need this shot ready.
It was an easy job because Iwas being conscious of, you know
(37:53):
, what needed to be done.
You know, yeah, yeah, that'sgreat.
Paul DeNigris (37:58):
And JJ is the same VFX artist who did the
Santa Claus piece that you weretalking about, that you've been
working with since college yeah,that's I mean.
That's something I always toldmy students when I was teaching
was.
You know, this is an industryof relationships and networking.
Look around the room the peoplethat you're sitting in class
(38:18):
with right now are thebeginnings of your professional
network.
These are the people thatyou're going to work with again
and again and again.
I have friends from film schoolfrom 30 years ago that I still
I still work with.
You know it's, it's the reality.
Once you find, once you findyour tribe as a filmmaker, you,
you tend to stick with them.
(38:39):
You know, that's why we see,you know, christopher Nolan's
and the Michael Mann's and theMartin Square Sages.
They work with the same peopleover and over again because they
develop that trust.
Joe Russo (38:49):
Yeah, there was almost between between that,
that senior thesis project, youknow, and and midnight clear, I
mean there was not if there wasa VFX shot in any of my shorts.
He was my first call, you know,and and and he's.
He did great work on on allthat stuff so and it turned.
I helped him get a couple jobs.
(39:10):
So you know I did, I did too.
Chris LaMont (39:12):
Yeah.
Joe Russo (39:16):
Yeah, but I got him.
I got him that job at Musewhich got him out to LA and got
to help launch, you know, thethe.
Now he's worked on huge TVshows, you know.
So it's it's been, it's beengreat to kind of watch him.
You know, blossom from fromthat.
Great Sounds like I need tohave him on.
(39:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Chris LaMont (39:38):
You can tell you all about working with Joe Russo
, the true behind the scenes,behind this lovable facade that
you see, you know on your screenin your head right now the true
nightmare cinema, which is?
Which is Joe.
Anyway, just kidding, Moving on.
Paul DeNigris (39:55):
Why don't we switch gears?
Since you guys are writers andproducers and we've we've heard
about your producing exploits onall pair and on the nightmare
cinema, among other things let'slet's switch gears to when
you're at the conceptual stage,when you're writing a story,
when you're writing a script.
Are you?
Are you when it comes to thingslike special effects you know,
(40:17):
onset, makeup, gore, things likethat or visual effects like
this, this big moment inmidnight, clear, yeah, are you
thinking about that sort ofstuff?
Are you?
Are you factoring that in whenyou write?
Or are you?
Are you writing pie in the sky?
I'm going to write everythingthat I see in my head and then
we'll figure out how to dial itback, or we'll figure out how to
(40:38):
find the money for it.
Or are you?
Are you thinking you know thisis how much we're going to be
able to make this for, and so Ihave to.
I have to tailor what's on thepage to to make it as cost
effective as possible.
Joe Russo (40:53):
I think it's project specific, you know.
I mean, like, if we go inknowing, like when we got hired
to write the Opera Nightmare, weknew we were going to have a
teeny, tiny budget and a 14 dayschedule, you know.
So we wrote that story knowingthat we had to minimize action
(41:14):
sequences, we had to minimizevisual effects elements.
We had to, you know, like so.
But I think when we're writingfor ourselves and we're writing
for you know, just try to turnout a cool spec screenplay.
I would say it's more aboutwhat is the story call for.
(41:37):
You know, if we're writing abig action movie, I think we can
be a little bit more liberalwith those elements.
If we're writing what'sultimately going to be a
relatively contained, minimallybudgeted horror movie, I think
we try to be a little bit morecareful about some of those
things.
I think the other thing thatwe've learned while writing is a
(42:00):
lot of the development peoplethat you meet while you're, you
know, fleshing this thing outinto something that you can
produce, don't necessarilyunderstand visual effects and
don't necessarily understand howmuch they cost.
You know, like, for example,there's something we wrote right
(42:23):
before the writer strike thatwe went back and forth with our
reps about.
We wanted to basically do whatwe knew was going to just be a
set extension.
You know, like we were going tohave this wall that basically
like the characters looked upand it like stretches up into
infinity Not a hugely complexVFX shot but they read that and
(42:49):
they go, oh my God, that readsso expensive, like, and it makes
you go like, oh, they don'tactually know the difference
between like you know a hugeexplosion and that, or you know
what I mean Like or a creature,and that it's been kind of
interesting, the kind of, Ithink, over the years, navigate
(43:11):
what they think is expensive andwhat isn't Right.
Chris.
Chris LaMont (43:15):
Yeah, I think you know it's also depends on you
know, the producers that you'retalking to and what their scope
of knowledge is as well.
I mean you know like.
So, joe, when I think aboutlike visual effects and story, I
remember the big debate waswhen we did the Unwelcome script
(43:36):
and the big thing aboutUnwelcome is that there is a
huge house fire.
It's a contained movie thattakes place in one house and the
house had to catch on fire andwe were like adamant that there
was no other way that we couldtell that story without the
(43:56):
house catching on fire, becauseit all this allegory and
everything that came comes back.
And I remember the one producerwho read that and immediately
they just said it's tooexpensive to put a house on fire
.
And we knew, we knew, I mean,we knew it was gonna be some
visual effects for sure, but itwas like the cost of that,
(44:20):
especially for a contained movie, it's like the cost of that we
felt from a story perspectiveoutweighed what we felt that a
producer would need to pay to doit right, to do the story.
Joe Russo (44:32):
And I also was thinking too, my friend at that
company, muse Stefan Broderick,he's like the TV fire guy, like
he's like one of the best atfire in the business.
So I was thinking, well, when weget the money to make this
movie, I'm just gonna call himand he'll do it for the right
price and we'll solve that issue, cause it really wasn't a huge.
(44:56):
The rest of the movie was not abig VFX job and there was a lot
of production design elements.
I think that would have beenaugmented by VFX, but that was
really the big VFX piece andtrying to convince a producer
who maybe had a couple of recentbad experiences with fire and
(45:17):
VFX that it could be done, itcould be done well and it could
be done for a price, becomes achallenge.
But I think ultimately you haveto try to stay true to the
narrative and I don't think youcan compromise on that stuff
because I think once you startchanging the narrative to redo
your budget.
I think you know that's how wewent from, I think what was a
(45:41):
really interesting sciencefiction action movie in open
source.
Chris LaMont (45:45):
I knew exactly where you were going with this.
Joe Russo (45:48):
And that became the one location movie, hard Kill.
And so we've watched our sci-fiVFX, heavier ideas get cut to
the bone and we've seen whathappens and the results almost
always is not a positive.
So I think the better thing isget a really good artist in
(46:11):
early, figure out what yourshots are gonna be, storyboard
them, maybe, do some animatics,like whatever you have to do,
ahead of time so that when youget there and you shoot it it's
going to be the cheapest andeasiest way to do it.
But I think again, like a lotof studio executives, because
(46:36):
they don't have that tacticalexperience and maybe because
they don't necessarily have therelationship an artist to an
artist does, they can'tguarantee those things and so
they never wanna bet on thosethings.
Does that make sense?
Paul DeNigris (46:53):
Sure does.
Joe Russo (46:54):
Yeah, so I think for us it's a mixed, but I think,
ultimately, when we're writingfor ourselves specifically,
we're always trying to write thebest version that we can and
then, if that includes VFXelements, that includes VFX
elements and we'll figure it out, you know.
Chris LaMont (47:15):
I agree.
I mean it's just so important.
I think we know that the VFXare going to be there.
I mean the VFX, I mean they cando anything.
You can do anything with VFXthat your partner soul can
create and put on the page.
So for us it's more about let'sget it out there, let's put it
(47:36):
down, let's envision this, let'smake it great for the audiences
, let's make it great for theproducers and the studio execs
to be able to read it and getexcited about the project.
Get excited about that.
And our hope, honestly just likeJoe said, I mean is that, yeah,
they're so enamored with thescreenplay that they're not
(47:57):
gonna worry about how much yougotta pay for it.
You know Right, becauseeventually that will happen.
But you know, reading ascreenplay, a fresh screenplay
for the first time, and readingthat and experiencing that it's
a special thing.
And if you do it right, youknow it can definitely lead to
(48:20):
very magical places in someone'sheart and soul.
And we just know that, at theend of the day, that the VFX
will always be there to supportthe artist's vision.
And, yeah, it might be really,really complicated.
I mean the stuff that we justfigured out right now.
It was another thing with thelava thing, or if they could do
this lava set piece and we'relike maybe it's too big, you
(48:43):
know, maybe not.
We realized that there were somany different things that were
intertangled in that, that wereresolved and started again from
a big set piece where, like, whynot do it?
Why not keep this?
Joe Russo (48:58):
Because it tells the story in the best possible way
that we can do and but again, Ithink we're also very pragmatic
about the fact that a lot of youknow this scene and this
sequence.
While it will be VFX heavy, alot of it's going to be, you
know, set extensions andchanging elements that are
(49:20):
already there.
It's not going to be likecreating a full on character or,
you know, like and having themmove and interact with people.
It's more, you know, augmentingthe location.
And again, I think that'ssomething that, like your
average studio exec isn'tnecessarily going to know the
(49:40):
difference in.
But you know your visualeffects artists and your and
your, I think, savour VFXfilmmakers are, and it's more
just about being precise withyour shooting, you know.
And.
But I think the other problemwith VFX, like on a macro level
and I think we're seeing thisrecently more and more and more
(50:03):
with some of these really VFXheavy tent poles is, you know,
these executives kind of likevisual effects for one reason
more than practical effectsthey're not locked into the
thing.
So what I mean by that is likeif I shoot a head explosion or a
(50:26):
monster or something on set,we're kind of limited to that
thing.
I mean, sure, vfx can augmentit, but like that is the thing,
whereas it's if it's acompletely CG character or
completely CG background.
These execs can tinker and givenotes on it pretty much up
until like two or three weeksbefore release.
(50:48):
I think that's why we're seeingso many people being like oh,
these, these, you know thisMarvel movie or that DC movie.
The effects don't look as good.
It's because they just keep tokeep getting tinkered with,
whereas I think you look atsomething like Avatar 2 and the
VFX look incredible because youhad James Cameron putting his
(51:08):
foot down and saying this is theshot and we're gonna spend a
year making it perfect.
You know what I mean.
So I think it's unfortunatelyhow we're using.
Vfx is right now, I think, moreto a anxious fear driven execs
(51:29):
advantage over the filmmakersand unfortunately, I think with
AI now coming into topotentially augment and speed up
the effects, that's only goingto let them try more things and
it's not gonna help them run outthe clock any less.
I think it's just gonna makemore work and more choices and
(51:53):
more options that they're gonnahave to choose from.
Maybe the physical work of ashot will get faster, but I
think at the end of the day,they're still gonna take it down
to the wire over a single time,you know.
Paul DeNigris (52:07):
Yeah, I mean the overall reliance on VFX and also
this 11th hour noodling, rightliterally right up until the,
you know, the week of release.
Part of that is because VFX isnot a unionized trade, right, so
it's kind of the easy, the easytrade to abuse the hell out of.
(52:28):
I know I know both of you, asWGA members, are keenly aware of
, you know, the labor situationin the industry and all that,
and that's a.
That's a topic for another day.
But but yeah, to some degreethe VFX industry has been forced
to, you know, kind of race tothe bottom.
You know we're all, we're allbeing asked to, you know, cut
(52:51):
our bids but up our, ourproductivity, up our output, up
the number of iterations that wegive clients, and it's a, it's
a bad scenario, it's.
It's why we end up with, youknow, weird, mark Ruffalo head
floating on the Hulkbuster armorin Infinity War, right, yeah
one of the biggest movies of alltime and you then it's got some
(53:13):
really dodgy VFX in it.
I love my Marvel stuff, you know, but but still I look at it and
I go there's some overworkedand underpaid VFX artists in
that, in the chain there, andthat's why we end up with shots
that don't look good.
And unfortunately, thosechickens are coming home to
roost.
We're seeing more and more tentpoles that are just audiences
(53:36):
are getting.
Joe Russo (53:36):
Audiences are getting wise to it.
And the thing that was sofrustrating to me was I was
talking to an exec recently andthey said something to the
effect of well, it's thefilmmakers who are just
unfamiliar with VFX.
And I, you know, I took kind ofoffense to that because I'm
(53:58):
like or are you guys just havingthese filmmakers change these
things over and over and overagain?
You know, and I would, I would,almost, I would bet nine out of
ten times.
That's the issue, more so thanyou know, because I think a
director who is worth theirweight will listen to their VFX
(54:21):
artists.
They're not going to if theydon't know what they're doing.
You know, I don't think they'regoing to, as I want to believe
that I don't think they're goingto tell a VFX artist how to do
something.
It's nine times out of ten it'sgonna be the other way around.
You know it's, we can do this.
Okay, I would love it to looklike X.
(54:42):
This is how we accomplish it,you know it needs to be a
symbiotic relationship.
Paul DeNigris (54:47):
Right, it needs to be you as the filmmaker,
saying, here's the thing I wantto accomplish, paul, how do we
do it?
And I'm me saying, okay, here'swhere our limitations are,
here's how we can work aroundthat, here's, yeah, here's what
we can, we can kind of figureout.
Here's a system that we can youknow, engineer to make this
happen.
And that's why that's whatJames Cameron and the Avatar
movies are so successful.
Because he is, he is both sidesof that equation.
(55:09):
He's a VFX guy by trade as wellas a visionary director, so he
can, he can look at it from bothsides and say this is what I
want to do, and I know this iswhat I have to communicate to my
, my VFX team to make it happenyep but it doesn't happen
without that, without thosestrong relationships, without if
(55:30):
the director is not in aposition to tell their execs
know, like James Cameron is.
Joe Russo (55:36):
I think that's where you find yourself in this
never-ending example ofiterations.
I saw a funny joke that wentaround a couple months ago about
you know, ai and it was likewell, if AI is completely
dependent on the clients tellingit's what it wants, it will,
it'll never be functionalbecause they never know what
(55:58):
they want right and, and youknow, I think that's why, you
know, a director ideally hassome idea of what he or she
wants, and and it's their job,just like it's their job to pull
a performance out of an actoror to, you know, pull a great
script out of a writer orwhatever, whatever piece of the
(56:21):
crew they're working with, thatthe the biggest part is they
have to communicate their visionright to the artists that
they're working with.
And if you have an exec who isbehind that director, stepping
on that vision every step of theway, I think that's how we find
(56:41):
ourselves in situations wherethese execs are getting really,
really, really overworked yeah,and you know that's why I choose
to work, to work forindependent filmmakers
predominantly.
Paul DeNigris (56:53):
You know I've worked on studio stuff, I've
worked on network stuff, butwhere I get the most fulfillment
as a visual effects artist,visual effects supervisor,
whatever is working withfilmmakers like you guys, who,
who are passionate, who arecommitted, who are focused on
the story, not on the focusgroup, not on the, you know,
(57:14):
pixel fucking, as we call it.
You know, just just givingnotes for the sake of giving
notes.
You know it is where the VFXartists can be partners.
Right, we're helping you tellthe story.
We're not just a, you know acommodity that can be, you know,
swapped in and out.
It's, it's there's a, there's acreative partnership here and
(57:36):
we're helping you tell the story.
And that that's why I'm makinga podcast called VFX for Indies
and not, you know, vfx insidethe studio system.
There's tons of podcasts outthere about chat, you know about
the, you know the VFX of Marveland the VFX of Star Wars.
We don't need more of that.
You know.
What I want is to empower thefilmmakers who are outside the
(57:57):
system to realize that there arelots of ways that they can use
VFX to tell their stories toexpand their canvas without
killing their budget, and theyjust have to be smart about it
and apply a lot of the thingsthat you've talked about in
terms of preparation andcommunication, and oh, I'd like
to add one more thing real fastand this is speaking
specifically to the indiefilmmakers is that and this goes
(58:19):
for, I think, everyone who doesfilm is that there are two
things that no filmmaker everhas enough of, and it's time and
money.
Chris LaMont (58:27):
And when you're working, you know, with a budget
, especially as an independentfilmmaker, you know the dollars
are tight.
And if you haven't done andworked with a visual effects
professional like Paul, you know, basically, you are paying on a
shot-for-shot basis, and havingthat and understanding that in
your budgeting, I think, needsto you need to be careful,
(58:50):
filmmaker, because you knowsomething like a cable that's
sitting in your in a shot thatneeds to be erased.
That costs money.
So maybe it's a lot smarter tolook through the camera and make
sure there isn't a cable in theshot or the boom shadow isn't
there, because you are workingwith finite resources and they
aren't that.
They're not studio money,they're not millions and
(59:11):
millions of dollars.
However, the other thing thatyou have to remember is that, as
a filmmaker, that you alsodon't, if you don't have a lot
of money, you know, is it what?
Is it good, fast and cheap?
Right guys, you get to onlytake two right.
So if you want your movie to begood and you want to be done
fast, right, it's not going tobe cheap.
(59:32):
If you want your movie to bedone fast, right and cheap, it's
not going to be good.
But if you have and understandhow important it is to allocate
your time, because when Paul Iknow that this is a lot you,
because you do love independentfilmmakers so much, and when you
do work with them, but the ideathat you can't expect things to
(59:56):
happen on a small budgetamazingly quickly, you have to
be cognizant of the visualeffects people that you're
working with and if they'regiving you a break on a rate
that it may not happen as fastas you want it to be, and so
it's really kind ofunderstanding that.
You know, and I heard, you know, ron Howard complains he never
(01:00:18):
has enough time or has enoughmoney for his movies as well.
So understand that if you wantit to be, you know, good, and
you want to be done cheap, it'snot going to be done fast, all
right.
So you have to understand whatyour limitations are and you
know, yeah, if you want things,if you want to throw money at
stuff to make things happenquickly.
(01:00:39):
You absolutely can do that, butespecially with visual effects
and let's be honest, I mean whenyou're talking about the
willing suspension of disbeliefvisual effects are the most
important thing.
Bad sci-fi you know bad sci-fiwhen you see it, because it's
bad visual effects.
That's why, when Star Warsinitially came out the first
Star Wars in 77 the effects wereso good that people bought into
(01:01:01):
the whole movie.
Anyone can spot bad visualeffects in a heartbeat.
So being able to understandthat you need to allow enough
time, you need to budgetaccordingly, I think those are
the most important things,because at the end of the day,
if the effects aren't good, noone's buying what you're selling
.
But you also have to workwithin budget as well, that's.
Paul DeNigris (01:01:22):
That's a great place to stop.
So, gentlemen, what's up nextfor you?
What, what projects do you havecoming out, and where can
people find out more about whatyou're up to?
Joe Russo (01:01:31):
well, the big thing that we're facing at the time of
this recording is the WGA is onstrike against the major motion
picture studios and streamers,and Chris and I are part of that
strike.
So, you know, we've got acouple projects that we're ready
to try it.
(01:01:51):
We've been working withproducers on that'll.
You know we'll get back to whenthis is over, but I think our
immediate focus is just, youknow, getting getting through
the strike so that we have weall have jobs moving forward and
and there's an industry movingforward because it all starts on
the page.
Paul DeNigris (01:02:13):
It doesn't matter how how well I push pixels
around, if you guys don't giveme stories to help tell as
feature film screenwriters, youknow a lot of the work we do is
on spec.
Chris LaMont (01:02:24):
It's us coming up with an idea on our own, us
putting in the three to fourmonths to be able to bring that
script to a place where we'rehappy with it, that eventually
you could go to market, and sothat's what we're working on
right now is we've got some specscripts that we're working on
that when this strike ends, wewill be able to take it out to
you know, producers will be ableto take it out.
We have, you know, producerattached to one of them, but for
(01:02:46):
us it's, you know, we're stillstaying razor sharp in regards
to being creative.
Being a, being a screenwriteron strike doesn't necessarily
mean that we're not writing.
So by the hopefully by the400th time that people hear this
, we're not gonna be on strikeanymore and we'll have some
really great things to tell youin our follow-up podcast that
(01:03:07):
I'm sure that you'll be.
You'll be figuring out as soonas we done because you this was
such a great to conversation forus.
Paul, thank you so much forgiving us an opportunity to talk
with you and your viewers andaudience yeah, thanks so much
for imparting your wisdom to tothe audience.
I really appreciate it ourpleasure you know you got you
know, joe, joe Russo tweets.
Paul DeNigris (01:03:28):
Joe Russo tweets.
Yes, joe is a prolific,prolific tweeter.
And also, if you really want tobe entertained, ask him
sometime about his connection tothe Marvel Joe Russo, because
he's not that guy.
What?
Chris LaMont (01:03:42):
do you?
Joe Russo (01:03:54):
mean Marvel Joe.
Paul DeNigris (01:03:55):
Russo.
There you go.
Thanks so much for joining uson today's episode of the VFX
for Indies podcast.
You can find transcripts,images and other cool stuff at
our website, vfx4indiescom.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasesubscribe, follow, like, rate,
review, comment on eitherYouTube or your favorite podcast
(01:04:18):
app.
On behalf of everyone atFoxTrad X-ray, I'm chief pixel
pusher, paul DeGrasse, and weall thank you so much for your
support of the show.
See you next time.
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