Realistic Action Movie VFX with Frank Ziede and Corey Gilbert

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Ever wonder how independent filmmakers navigate the maze of creating compelling films on a budget? Join us on a captivating journey with filmmakers Frank Ziede and Corey Gilbert, as they dissect their creative process and share the highs and lows of independent filmmaking. From their shared adoration for Michael Mann's cinematic masterpiece "Heat", to the trials and triumphs of creating their own digital assets in projects like Robbed, Black, Volition, and Exile, these filmmakers reveal the in-depth process behind their art.

Can you imagine all the elements that go into creating a realistic, budget-friendly explosion in a film? Corey and Frank spill the beans on the complexities of creating explosive scenes that leave audiences in awe. The duo stresses the importance of teamwork and finding the right tribe that supports your vision. We delve into how a positive on-set culture can remarkably affect the overall atmosphere of a project, and how their distinct backgrounds in dance, choreography, graphic design, and photography all come together to create a unique filmmaking dynamic.

Aspiring independent filmmakers, take note! This episode is brimming with invaluable advice and wisdom from our guests. Hear about the vital role of pre-production planning, the necessity of recruiting the VFX team early, and why creating an animatic for project sequences is a game-changer. By the end, you'll have a newfound appreciation for the art of independent filmmaking, the dedication needed in the process, and the significance of having a solid plan while working on a VFX project. Tune in, and get ready to be inspired by Frank and Corey's passion for filmmaking!

Hosted by Foxtrot X-Ray’s founder and “chief pixel pusher” Paul DeNigris, who brings to the conversation 30 years of experience in both independent filmmaking and visual effects, as well as 20 years of experience in teaching all aspects of digital filmmaking at the university level.

For episodes, transcripts, and more, visit http://vfxforindies.com

For more information about what Foxtrot X-Ray can do for your film, visit https://foxtrotxray.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Two Chicago filmmakers channeltheir shared love of Michael Mann's heat into
a series of grounded and grittyshort films with an eye toward keeping the
action real and the VFX invisibleon this episode of VFX for Indies.

(00:33):
Hello and welcome to this episodeof VFX for Indies, a podcast about the intersection
of visual effects and independentfilmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris,
VFX artist, filmmaker, andCEO of boutique VFX shop, Foxtrot X-Ray.
Joining me today are two filmmakerswho are not shy about using VFX to tell their
stories and with whom I havecollaborated with a number of times over the

(00:55):
last decade or so, Frank Ziedeand Corey Gilbert. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

[Frank] (01:01):
pleasure.

[Corey Gi (01:02):
Thanks. Thanks, Paul.

[Pau (01:04):
So why don't we just start with quick introductions. Tell us a little
bit about yourselves and aboutyour projects that you've worked on, both individually
and as a duo. I know you guyshave been collaborating for a long time, but
you've also got your own creativepursuits. So let's hear a little bit about
that. So Frank, why don't westart with you?
Sure, my name is Frank Ziede. My lastname seems hard to pronounce, just think of

(01:25):
the baked pasta, baked Ziti. You cancall me baked Ziti, I'm cool with that. But
I'm from Arizona, born and raised,strange. I never knew Paul when I lived in
Arizona, but met him later. And I livedin LA for about nine years, and then I moved
to Chicago. And I was an actor primarilyfirst, dancer, choreographer. I used to do

(01:45):
music videos and award shows and stuff.
But then... My film is always my focus andwhen I moved to Chicago, I needed,
what was it? My wife needed a website and shewas like, this guy, Corey, is from
this production house called P3 Media Works.
They're doing the website. So I wentover there and we just started chatting and

(02:06):
we realized that the two of us werefilmmaker types and we had similar interest
in movies. But from there, I collaboratedwith him and some other very talented people.
Man, I've done about. I was thinkingabout this the other day, Corey, probably about
a dozen shorts, a digital series ortwo. I've written a ton of stuff, acted in

(02:26):
a little bit, but I sort of went awayfrom that and just really got into making movies
that I would want to see if I weregoing to the movie theater. And I try to be
an eternal student of filmmaking. SoI am challenging myself, what can I do next?
Trying to stay humble, knowing thatwhatever it is, it can always be better. I

(02:47):
remember an article. from David Fincher,he said, if anybody comes up to me and says,
I looked at the dailies and it's amazing,it's the best stuff ever, he's like, you're
lying. It can always be better, right?
So stop thinking that way. And that makes himthat eternal improvement when it comes
to his projects. And that's why I think they'reso good. So I love action genre. My
favorite movie is Heat. I'm sure we're gonnatalk about that. I've got posters all

(03:10):
over my office. I also love Aliens, the secondone, Blade Runner, Collateral, The
Matrix. That's me in a nutshell. This is mein a nutshell. How did I get in this
nutshell? So Corey Gilbert's my colleague andcohort and collaborator and he's up
next.

[Core (03:29):
My name is Corey Gilbert.
I'm from Peoria, Illinois originally,but I've been in Chicago for
probably most of my life at this point overway over half my life at this
point. My brother and I started a productioncompany, the two of us that
we still run today, we're about 21 years in.
We're a small video agencyhere in Chicago, we call ourselves a video

(03:52):
agency because Most all ofour clients from the time we started the company
until now, we engage directlywith us for the entire creative process. So
we have a creative developmentprocess that takes us through a strategy with
our clients for their projects,and then right into pre-production and production.
And then we also handle outsideof the big budget style VFX that Paul does.

(04:20):
we do everything through postas well. The editing, color, sound, and all
that, and then motion graphicsand things like that as well. And so, my brother
and I started the productioncompany way back when we were younger with
the idea that we have alwaysloved making movies and wanted to make movies.

(04:41):
Although I never went to filmschool, I did go to art school. I have a degree
in graphic design and photography.
I worked as a graphic designer for severalyears before my brother and
I started our company. And so there was a bit,you know, there was like a
lower learning curve for me to kind of getinto the technology and stuff
behind filmmaking, but I did not go to, youknow, formal film school. So
you know, my brother and I said, well, let'sstart a production company,

(05:05):
and then we'll take the money that we makeand make our movies. Well,
then it becomes an actual small business andyou've got your insurance and
your taxes and your payroll and your employees.
which is actually a beautiful,awesome thing. I love being able to employ
people that went to schoolto be an editor or went to school to be a producer

(05:26):
and be able to give them acareer. And that's a huge, awesome thing. It's
a small business, so it's gotits ups and downs and it's tough, but it has
enabled me to, on the side,leverage the resources of my company and make
short films and make otherfilmmaking projects. And then... also support

(05:47):
other filmmakers like Frankand that's how he and I met and started collaborating.
And then he and I formed quitea friendship and quite a bond beyond the work
that we did together. And sonow we continue not only our friendship but
our working relationship. Andhe and I have a really good rapport where he
brings me projects, I bringhim projects, he produces for me, I produce

(06:10):
for him, he directs for me,I direct for him, he writes. For me, so we
have this awesome relationshipwhere we can kind of just sort of like bounce
back and forth from projectto project and take on different roles for
each project, whether he'sproducing, I'm directing or vice versa. And

(06:30):
it works out very well in bothdirections. And so that's just been an incredible
friendship and working relationshipthat I've had with Frank that really is kind
of the culmination of my independentfilmmaking side of my world. I've got the P3
MediaWorks side, which is mostlycommercial work and things like that. And that's
awesome and creative as well.
And then when it comes to the independent filmmakingside, I mean, Frank really

(06:51):
is, you know, my first phone call wheneverI have a new project come in.
I'm like, you know, whether he's directly involvedwith it or not, I'm going to
be giving him a call because he's going tohelp me produce it somehow
or help me get a location somehow because theone thing he's good at. is
the producing side of things like that. I mean,he's a fantastic writer, obviously,

(07:11):
as well. But man, when there's a tough locationthat I really, really want
to get, I just call Frank and I just sick Frankon him. And somehow we get
it. So he's a natural born leader and producer.
And so it makes him a goodfilmmaker overall.
You're gonna make me cry, man. What'shappening?
What's going on? What I love aboutCorey is that he makes me a better creative.

(07:32):
Because I grew up in the Die Hard, like, Predatorera, right? Where action was about
action. But Corey, and I think that's whatyour next question is, like, why do
both of us love Heat so much? Corey alwaysholds me accountable to say, we call
it gack. Like, you know, it's got a lot ofgack. We got the helmets and the guns

(07:53):
and the lasers. That's cool. But like what'sunderneath all of that? And that's
like, Corey always is like, we gotta make surethat we're keeping it honest and we're
pushing the story, not just the props. Andso it's just been, it's been a great
collaborative relationship for sure. And Igive all kudos to him and his brother.
They, you know, have just kept doing theirjob and all the way through COVID,

(08:18):
kept their company going and just. youknow try to support their people and
it's pretty incredible and their clients haveyou know rewarded them because of all
the hard work so

[Paul DeNigris (08:29):
It's a recurring theme among the guests that I have on this
show that a lot of successin independent filmmaking is finding your tribe,
right? Finding the people thatyou love working with because a lot of times
independent film is not, it'salmost never about money, right? It's about
being creative and having funand enjoying the journey and going on it with

(08:51):
people that you like journeyingwith. Right. So you guys are no exception.
And obviously a big part ofthat finding your tribe is finding people who
have similar taste. Right.
You're going to find people who not only yourpersonalities gel, but your
creative interests, the things that the kindsof movies you love, the kinds
of movies you want to make are similar. Andso you've mentioned the Michael

(09:15):
Mann film Heat a couple of times and it comesup. easily wants a project
whenever you guys bring me in on a project,you reference a Michael Mann
movie or a David Fincher movie or a ChristopherNolan movie. It's about keeping
it real, keeping it grounded. You guys arerarely making science fiction

(09:35):
movies and even if there is a sci-fi elementto your movies, it's very,
very grounded in the here and now and the realworld. And that's what makes
it fun because everything that I, every VFX...
every visual effect thing thatI do for your movies has to feel real. It has
to be invisible in a lot ofways, which is a great challenge. But I too

(09:57):
am a massive fan of MichaelMann. Have been since the summer of 84, watching
TV with my dad and this teasercomes on, two haggard looking dudes loading
shotguns in this black convertibleFerrari set to In the Air Tonight. My dad and
I go, what the fuck was that?
I gotta watch that, right? So Miami Vice turnedme on to neo-noir and crime

(10:19):
stories and Michael Mann as a filmmaker andI've been on the ride with
him ever since. And he, yeah, it's the highwatermark of his filmmaking
as far as I'm concerned. I just revisited itrecently on the new 4K Blu-ray
and it holds up as good as ever and it's neverlooked or sounded better than

(10:41):
on that 4K transfer. So. Talk about Heat alittle bit. We could easily
do an hour just on Michael Mann's oeuvre andHeat in particular. But let's
keep it brief to talk about what is it aboutthat movie in particular that
tickles your creative side.

[Core (11:01):
Yeah, where do you start?
But I'll start with what Ilove the most about movies and that's the characters
and the character development.
And here is a fairly long movie, especiallyfor its time, with an ensemble
cast. There's certainly two main characters,but the ensemble cast is fantastic

(11:21):
as well. And what I love about Michael Mannis, even with his feature version
of Miami Vice, sometimes the side charactersare even more interesting than
the main characters. One of the things thatI love about Heat is that within
this big, giant crime saga, he actually wovein this little small social

(11:45):
justice theme with the

[Frank] (11:51):
Dennis Haysbert.
Dennis Haysbert character wherehe was being completely manipulated by the
system, by his parole officer,by this jerk that he worked for that knew that he
had no recourse because hewas an African-American on parole. And so here's
this big awesome story withAl Pacino and Robert De Niro in the famous
scene with them in the cafe.
But yet that part right there has been an inspirationfor me to write. I actually

(12:16):
wrote a script based on a character that waslike that character. And it's
like inside this big giant movie is a littlepiece of social justice, right?
And then he finally defaults back, becausewhat's he supposed to do? Basically,
the people that complain, I'm going to go ona little tangent, the people

(12:37):
that are probably the ones that complain aboutcrime are the guys that force
this guy to just feel like he had to go backto doing it. So you're your
own problem. But that's what I love about MichaelMann is that he's just an amazing
writer. Yeah. And then his films are completelytechnically accurate. He's doing all
these things with the action that's perfectand flawless and the production

(13:01):
value is incredible. But then his charactersare beautiful characters with
true struggles that you can vicariously attachto.
Yeah, I went in my recent rewatch.
I was I was struck by I had forgotten how allof the side characters had
their own little arcs, right, because the reputationof the movie, the De Niro Pacino

(13:22):
dynamic, you know, sort of overshadows allof that. And and I was it was
it was fun to revisit it and go, oh, yeah.
Like Val Kilmer's characterhas this great arc. Dennis Haysbert's character
is this great arc. And they'reand they're woven in and they never feel like
they're separate. They're theyare. they're a thread in this bigger tapestry

(13:43):
and it's wonderful. So go ahead.
Well, and so this is why I just toldyou a moment ago, I like working with Corey.
He makes me think about all that stuff.
When I saw it the first time, I was like, okay,Sizemore's got a Galeo 7.62 versus
Kilmer and De Niro rockin’ M4s, right, with5.56 and like their ammo is not compatible.
But I mean, that's for me, it was like, I wasfascinated by the tactics and I was

(14:06):
fascinated by the accuracy of it and how, howserious they took it. And they... It
was so different in the time back then of Schwarzeneggerand Stallone. And it was like, here's
what feels like really authentic action thatcould be terrifying. And, but it was
still so compelling. And I wasn't, I don'tthink I was aware at that time in my

(14:28):
filmmaker journey that I was really compelledbecause Sizemore is there in that moment.
And De Niro is like, you know, you don't haveto do this. and you got money saved
up and all these things. And he gave the ringto his girl at the dinner when they
were all around. But then Sizemore's characteris like, “For me, the action is the

(14:49):
juice.” And it's like, I mean, there are somany subtleties underneath the action
that I've grown to educate myself in. I guessthat's been my film school. The technical
aspects of the action and the guns and thesets and the ski masks, I've known
that for forever, but. That for me is wherethe film really flourishes, is that

(15:09):
it's so many great performances and it's shotbeautifully. And I remember reading
a review early on when the movie came out beforeI saw it. And it said that Michael
Mann makes the characters seem like sharkson land, that they all seem like these
predators all moving on dry land, moving aroundand they can kill anything at any time.

(15:33):
And that just... It's really like how the characterscame about. But if you've never seen
it to your audience, make sure they go to YouTubeand watch LA Takedown, which is the
TV version of Heat before Michael Mann hada budget, before Michael Mann had those great actors. And it's such a reminder to me that even a great director
like Mann can make dog shit, I hopewe can curse on here, because it is, it's not

(15:58):
a great movie and it's practicallythe same script. So that was such an education
to me on you can have a great script.
But you do need to have great locations. Youdo need to have a fantastic cinematographer.
You do need to have somebody who's got thelook and feel. And sorry, they're mowing
my lawn right now. I don't know how loud thatis. But yeah, it just was, if anybody
hasn't seen it and you're a fan of it, go watchLA Takedown on YouTube. It's such a

(16:21):
mind blowing thing to see the bad version.
And then later on with the right tools,that same artist make a better sculpture.
I see LA Takedown as the previsversion of Heat
Yeah,

[C (16:32):
It's almost like the sketch.
Yeah.
Yeah. Michael Mann didn't haveUnreal Engine, so he just got a bunch of other
actors to read the dialoguemore or less OK.

[Frank] (16:47):
Yeah, yeah, all right.

[Pa (16:48):
And he kind of worked out a lot of his action blocking and stuff like that.
And then when he got the budget,he went, OK, better actors, better blocking,
better stuff. Yeah, all around.
Shout out on Heat though. Thisone of my favorite stories is there's an urban
legend going around and you can Googleit that the LAPD SWAT team or I think it's
the US Marines like in their trainingand bootcamp shows the clip of Kilmer doing

(17:10):
a speed reload with his mag coming back up. And they, and they say, listen, if this piece of shit Hollywoodpunk can do it that fast, you better
be able to do it faster than that. So justa, a tip of the hat to how well trained
they were.

[ (17:25):
Here's the thing, right? Like you said, Frank, he's got, Mann's got all the
bells and whistles. He's gotall the, he's got the great cinematography,
he's got the great locations,the great acting, the, you know, all the great
technical advisors, armorers,people to train them, all of that. But it's
always in service of the story,right? And that's, again, a recurring theme
on this show is the visual,the reason I love working with independent

(17:49):
filmmakers is we're never doingvisual effects for the sake of visual effects.
It's always to support thestory. Right? So this little tangent about
Heat may feel like a tangent,but it really speaks to the philosophy that
the three of us share aboutall the technical prowess in the world doesn't
really matter if you're nottelling a good story.

(18:12):
Yeah, everything's, you know, I live by the rule, everything has to have
motivation, right? You know,that's what you're commenting on with Michael
Mann is, yeah, all the carsare amazing and all the houses and all the
locations, but they're allsupposed to be, you know, because that's the
story he's telling. And soit's all motivated, none of it's gratuitous,
ever.
There's several times when Corey andI have been working together,

(18:33):
he was like, why does he have to holdthat? Like why are you putting that on him?
I was like, well, it looks cool. Hewas like, man, no, no. It's got to have some,
why do we need it? If we don't needit, let's move on, Frank. Cause that's like, that's a

[Pa (18:49):
Yeah, that's great. So, uh, so why don't we, we move away from Michael
Mann and move to, uh, Ziede andGilbert. What, what have you guys done? Just
give us like brief rundownof some of the projects you've worked on. Uh,
and in particular, you know,keep, let's keep the focus to things that used
VFX to help tell the story,whether, whether I worked on them or not.

(19:10):
Man, our first short was no VFX, andit starred Tim Robinson, who's on, I Think
You Should Leave. It was this bankrobbery comedy improv short called Robbed.
But we could, I don't know if we neededVFX on that one, but we've shot different ones
in different situations. But when westarted to do VFX was Black, which was this

(19:30):
digital series. And we realized that...
We're doing more things where we need that.
But when we collaborated with you,the big one that we did was Volition, which
we did a while back and it stalled.
I'm sure we'll talk about it. But then themost recent one we did is Exile. And
I will say this, what we did on Volition wassuch an education, such a bootcamp,

(19:53):
we were so much more prepared for Exile. Wouldyou agree, Corey? Add your thoughts.
Definitely agree. What we did on Exile,we tried to actually do on Volition, which
was create all the assets,and we're talking about basically computer

(20:19):
stuff and things on computerscreens that people are interacting with, and
they're a direct part of thestory. And so what we did on Exile, we tried
to do on Volition, which wascreate all those digital assets ahead of time.
and then actually have theactors control them on the screens. But it
was so much content, and itwasn't just moments in the script. It was basically

(20:40):
99% of the time, the stuffis interacting and a part of the film

[Frank] (20:47):
We even called it...

[Corey Gilbert] (20:47):
on Volition.
And so we just...
yeah, the screen on Volition was acharacter of its own because it had so much
information, right?
Why don’t we backtrack. Sorry, why don't we backtrack and give us a quick summary, synopsis of Volitionand then I'll run a clip of
the film so the audience can get a feel for what it's about.

(21:12):
Yeah, yeah, we, there was a competitionfor, the screenwriting competition here in
Chicago for a short film and I wroteit. We got, we won and this camera house in
town. Corey, remind me of the camerahouse.

[Corey Gilbe (21:25):
Magnanimous Media.
Yeah, magnanimous. And so we got alittle bit of an extra budget for camera and
gear and stuff. And we put it togetherand we had a plan. Oh, so the simple premise
is a Chicago police officer wakes upin a chair, bolted to a chair against his own
will. And some guy is there and basicallypresents him with a choice. Uh, you can be

(21:46):
a vigilante and you can do this thingand stop this bad person. Or if you don't,
I will do it. And then I will blameyou. because it's the right thing to do. So
hence the name Volition. It's gottabe of your own volition, your choice. There's
a twist at the end and it really isabout if you're presented with good and evil,

(22:07):
right and wrong, are you really willingto do what's necessary to stop it? And that
seems like a simple question, but it is not.

(23:15):
Now, from that point,one thing that came up was this screen
this... the guy who is the hostage taker if youwill the kidnapper has to present a
powerful case to this police officer. He'sgot to lay it out as best he can and
the screen really is the medium that we'regonna use to do that and we had a plan

(23:36):
to do practical I've used PowerPoint and Photoshopto build practical assets that we can
record on camera. Our problem was this ourlead actor, one of the lead actors,
Christian Stolte, who's a regular as I thinkit's Mouch on or Munch, I don't know.

[Co (23:55):
He's a regular on, he's one of the main cast on Chicago Fire.
Yeah, yeah, I just can't pronouncehis character's name. But he, our other actor,
Pete Kelly, was nice enough becausethey had done acting school together to say,
hey, Christian Stolte is available.
Well, he was available for this, such thislimited window. And all of a sudden
it was like, we gotta go go go go go. And I was workingand parenting and it's like, I would

(24:18):
have needed an extra couple of weeks to reallydevelop all those assets. And Corey
and I just were like, hey, we've got the actor,we've got the location. Magnanimous
has given us the funds. We just got to go.
And they had a game plan. They greenscreened it. They mapped it and all these different
things. And we did get such amazingstuff, but we just, we were ill prepared for

(24:42):
really what was needed on the backend. And then, but I think the greatest thing
that I think that Corey and I, at leastfor me, Corey and I, I hope you feel the same
way, that we followed through. Andit took a ton of money and a ton of time. And
we... We hustled to try to find everyway as an independent filmmaker that we could
to get it done. But we just had tobite the bullet at some point and be like,

(25:02):
hey, man, we just got to call the rightpeople who have the skill sets to get this
thing done. So what else, Corey? AmI missing anything there?
No, I mean, that's a good point.
I mean, really it came down to we ran out oftime because Christian Stolte,
amazing actor, was willing to give, you know,television actor, tons of clout,
awesome actor to give us this day. And so it'slike, well, we got to just

(25:22):
take advantage of this actor and get this stuffin the can and we'll figure
out, well, let's just put green on the computerscreens and let's go. You know,
and we, you know, we've got the team and thecrew that can shoot the green
screen well enough so that it'll matte outlater. But then it's about
replacing the matte with all this, with 12 minutesof VFX, with 12 minutes of
continual VFX, which is lots and lots of workfor somebody's team, not probably

(25:47):
just one person. And so we got it in the can,we picture locked it, and we
had certain people that were wanting to maybecome on board to help us do
it, but it was individual people, and doingit freelance. And it's just
too much time. It's months and months of workfor like one person, probably
months and months of work for your, Paul, I'dlet you talk about it, but

(26:09):
just from my limited knowledge on the process,it's just tons and tons of
time. And so, and then we even actually hada school here in Chicago that
one of the VFX teachers loved the film. Hesaw the picture lock and was
like, hey, I'd love to like use this for myclass. And so then we had this
plan like, oh, the students will like takeus, use their semester of their

(26:32):
class at this film school and then completethe project as part of their
class. Well, even that was tough, right? Andso that unfortunately didn't
totally work out either. And then finally,Paul, that was when we realized
we needed to come to a team like yours andreally get it done. And like

(26:54):
Frank said, bite the bullet and just, you know.
put up the funds to get thefilm done. Because again, to Frank's point,
we always finish every projectwe do. And this one, even though it took several
years after it was picturelocked, we knew we were never gonna give up
on it and we were gonna getit done somehow. Plus, it had Christian Stolte

(27:15):
in it and Pete Kelly, anotheramazing actor and friend of ours, it was just
like awesome. And it was agreat script and it was a great story. Frank
explained the whole thing behindthe title and why it's called, it's just like.
was too good to not finish.
And so that's, you know, eventually we cameto Paul's team and Foxtrot
and they knocked it out of the park becausethat's what they do.

(27:38):
And it was so good at that point, Coreyand I were like, we could sort of do this one
person to do sound, but we even spentmore money and went to, what was the name of
the studio here in Chicago?

[Corey Gilb (27:48):
Oh, we went to BAM.
And BAM Studios, we went in for a fullsound session and they like meticulously did
these things that we didn't even thinkabout. And it just, when you see all those
aspects, all those artists come togetherwho are so talented in what they do, it really
does make the project shine.

[Corey Gilbert] (28:06):
Mm-hmm.

[Pa (28:07):
And again, it's all hanging on the spine of story and character, right?
That's why people, you know,that's why people want to go the extra mile
for a film like that, right?
Because they see it. The performances are great.
Writing's great. You know,let's, let's bring everything else up to that
level.
The first time you brought Volition tome was shortly after picture
lock. And I think it was the same, the samesort of idea. You, you pitched

(28:30):
it to me as this is when I was still teaching,pitched it to me as is this
a class project? And I looked at it and sawthe scope of the work. And
I said, I don't think this is a semester longproject with a, with a dozen,
a dozen VFX students, right? I think that thisis. bigger than a group of
students can accomplish in a semester. Andyou guys said, okay, we'll

(28:51):
go figure it out. And you went on that journeythat you've talked about and
then ultimately came back to me.

[F (29:00):
You could say crawling back.

[Paul DeNigris] (29:00):
No, I would never say that and
I would never say I told you so.

[Frank] (29:07):
That's right.

[Pa (29:09):
I really, really wanted you guys to be successful with it. And that was
the thing, I never wanted to.
I didn't want to say yes, commit my studentsto it, set them up for failure,
set you guys up for disappointment, right?
That was never something thatI wanted to do when I brought an outside project
to a group of my students,because it's demoralizing, right? If they spend

(29:30):
a semester working on somethingand it doesn't get finished, or it's not up
to the quality that you guysare happy with, and then you feel like, okay,
we wasted 15 weeks with thisgroup of kids working on it, it's just. It's
really bad for students whenthey're in that situation. And so it was never
something that I would be willingto do to take on something that I didn't think

(29:50):
they could finish or that wasbeyond their skill level, where their ability
to commit time and that, andthat really is what came down to it. It wasn't,
it was never like, Oh, we don'tlike this movie. We're not doing it. It was
this movie's good. We can'texecute to that level right now in this situation.
And so I'm glad that we didhave I did have another chance later on to

(30:13):
come back to it and come atit from the professional aspect with my company
rather than with students.
Ironically, one of the kids who was a studentof mine at the time that you
brought it to me was then working for me. Soultimately he did get to work
on the film.
Can I throw something out here though?
And that's Gabe Vigil. He’s my right hand man...

(30:34):
And just hearing you through that conversationand the last couple of projects Corey and I
have done, and I just wanna speak toyour audience, bite the bullet. If you get
a situation where you're looking atsome part of your project that has to get done
and somebody comes to you with a quote,number one, they're probably gonna be your

(30:54):
friend. Right? So they're a collaboratorwho's giving you a rate that I guarantee is
lower than they would probably chargesomebody else. Right? So they're and they're
just telling you this is kind of whatI need. And this happened on our other project,
Exile, with Paul, our editor, who'samazing. But don't like I don't know what the

(31:14):
word is. Don't quibble. Don't don'tyou know, hem and haw about it. Whatever it's
going to feel like in that quick momentto say it's 750 more than we expected. I don't
know what we're gonna do, but I'm justtelling you from experience, spend the money.
You'll be less frustrated. It'll takeless time, less worry. And I hate to say it's

(31:38):
only money, but it is. It's just dollars.
It's ones and zeros in a bank account. Andwhat you're gonna get is what you want
out of the project. And we chased our tailsaround and around trying to figure
it out. And it's not easy. And I guess thelesson there too, is if you're going
to venture into a project, make sure you onlybuild a project that is big enough
or that matches the budget you have. If youdon't have a budget, don't make a big

(32:04):
project. Right. But if you are going to swingfor the fences, make sure you've got
the grit and capability and the backing todo this. And Corey and I both have
full-time day jobs and we split these costsright down the middle. And it's just
like, let's do it, man. Are we in? Are youin? I'm in. great, let's do it. So
maybe you need a tribe who's gonna pitch intothe coffers and say, hey, let's do
that. But I'm telling you, man, it is worthit. It's a short-term pain for long-term

(32:29):
results that are really what you, your cast,your crew, all the people who put their
blood, sweat, and tears into that one, two,or three days of shooting, telling
you, man, just do it. It's the best thing youcan do.

[P (32:43):
Yeah, to me, it goes back to the, you know, what I, what I always called
the production triangle, right?
Good, fast, cheap pick two, right? You canbe a one, a one person band,
you know, and be, be a filmmaker, a young filmmakerstarting out watching YouTube
tutorials and you can write. Shoot, edit color,do VFX, do sound. You can do
all that. It's going to take a long time. Oryou can raise some money. Hire

(33:07):
a good cinematographer. If you're not. Greatwith lighting and camera. Hire
good sound people. Please hire good sound people.
That's the number one thing.
Right? This isn't even a plea for you to hireVFX artists. Hire a good sound
person. If you have $1 to spend on your crew,spend it on sound,

[Frank] (33:27):
You wanna [Paul DeNigris]
make a lot of money in this industry,go become a sound person.

[Paul DeNigris] (33:31):
Yeah, [Frank]
so yes, you can be a one personshow, if you're willing to put in the time
and learn all those differentcrafts. Or you can raise some money, focus
on the thing you're good at,surround yourself with a support team that's
good at what they do and passionateabout what they do and you get a better product.

[C (33:54):
Yeah, I'll say this to that.
When my brother Curtis and I started our company,as I mentioned before, I had
a background, but I didn't formally go to filmschool, neither did my brother.
And what we did when we started our company,the first thing is like, okay,
we ought to hire people and surround ourselveswith people that are better
at this than we are. And that's what we did.

(34:17):
Everything that I've learnedand whatever skills and whatever skill sets
that I have now, has been allbuilt by learning from people that are really,
really good at what they do.
And that's why we hired them, you know, andthey're good people. You know,
the thing I'll say about filmmaking, you know,Frank was talking about, you
know, don't bite off more than you can chew.

(34:37):
The thing I'll say is, youknow, I want to work with good people. Everybody's
talented, right? Then it comesdown to who fits me as a person and who fits
my culture. You know, Frankobviously does that. That's why we've stuck
together for over a decadeand made at least a dozen projects together.
But that's one of the thingsthat I've learned in running a production company

(34:59):
or just running a business,a small business, doesn't matter what industry,
is that culture is everything,right? And I'll take give a shit over skill
any day of the week, becauseat the end of the day, everybody's talented.
That's why they're out in theindustry and applying for the jobs, right?
So work with people that...
We're calling it your tribe. Build a tribe.

(35:24):
Yes, do it. But that's whatit's going to be. And so surround yourself
with people that you fit wellwith and that you mesh well with. Because culture
on a set is everything. Cultureeven in post-production is everything because
it's all collaborative. Soone of the things that Frank does very well

(35:45):
is just creates an amazingenergy on set. That's why I like. working for
him and that's why I love whenhe comes and produces for me as well. He just
creates a great culture onset and people love to be around him and it
just makes everybody do a betterjob and then the product's better.
And I know Paul's that way too.

(36:05):
Frank is so, hang on a second.
I'm going to say one more thing about Frankwhile we're tooting Frank's horn.
Frank is so adept at conveyingthat positive energy that even in his LinkedIn
posts, you feel it. When heposts one of his lengthy things about like
corporate culture or somethinghe's learned or some trip he's been on or something.

(36:29):
It's like you're in the roomwith him. There's just this warm energy that
comes out of everything thatFrank puts out. So, all all right I’ll stop before we make him cry.
Paul, you and I have had this conversation,you and I have had this conversation
in the VFX world, because I know thisis a VFX podcast, that

(36:50):
if you're gonna do an independent project,please treat it that way. Don't treat it like
a Hollywood project, right? You'renot paying millions of dollars, you're not
a studio, we're independents. So let'sall lose ego and have a little bit of grace
and understanding with each other.
And the other part of it is, you gotta understandmaybe somebody's going through something.

(37:15):
So there's life or there's kids. And you'vegotta come at whether it's your sound
person or your editor, you can't barge in andsay, well, why isn't this done? Or
I need all these things. It's like, hey, bro.
Hey, hey, ma'am, just slow down fora second and let's talk and collaborate and

(37:41):
collaborate. That's twice now I'vemade up words collaborate because to Corey's
point, it's all culture. I would saythis too. Corey, I think you know where I'm
going. You're not going to make thosetribal bonds. Don't they don't come quick.
You've got to let them sort of percolateand. and grow and get there because Corey and

(38:08):
I have gone through so many ups anddowns and then there's the stress of onset
and the clock and time and the moneyand all that. And you kind of got to go through
those fires. And now we've done itso many times that I can see when Corey's there
and I got to get out of his way. Youknow, or I can see when, you know, Paul, you're
telling me, guys, this, I know whatyou want. This is what you should do. and I

(38:33):
don't take it personally, I take itprofessionally. And so that's, you know, it's
almost like The Bear on FX. I don'tknow if you've seen it, when the

[Paul DeNigris] (38:42):
I have.
chest go like this, they're like, hey,you know, I'm stressed, you're stressed, it's
just work, right? And so I think thatreally helps. So if you're gonna work with
the VFX artist or a sound designer,you know, or an editor, give them some grace,
man. They don't want you in their kitchen.
They know you gotta be there tasting the food,but... Let them cook. Let them do what
they do the way they do it.

(39:05):
Trusting your team is a really important thing too.
When you do find those collaborators,trusting them to do what they're good at. You
know, there's a term that weuse in VFX, pixel fucking. When a client comes
in and they're like, that pixelthere, can we move it here? And there's no

(39:26):
rhyme or reason to it. It'snot helping tell the story. It's not helping
sell the moment. It's not helpingmake the VFX more real. It's just move this
here just for the sake of anote. And that's when it becomes, it starts
to feel like a job and a slog.
It doesn't feel like fun, creative, creativity.
And I know it can't, everymoment can't be fun. Every moment can't be,

(39:50):
you know, the best time we'veever had working on a project, right? There's
gonna be times when you'regonna get a note and it's gonna suck and you
have to do it. But then there'stimes when the note is just like, What are
we doing? Like you've seenthree versions of this already. Is it telling
the story that you want totell? Why are we messing, like, why are we
at that level where we're messingwith pixels? We're freezing frames. Like the

(40:10):
audience is not ever gonnanotice this.
Would I volunteer that what it is alittle thing spelled with three letters called
ego?
Yeah.
Could it possibly be that you hearthat your title is director so that you have
to have your finger on every singlething? Like the whole idea of directing is
just guiding. And all these peoplehave a job. Let them do what they do. Don't

(40:32):
micromanage them. You know, just letthem cook.
Yeah, well, you know, a sayingthat I like to repeat is 90% of directing is
casting, right? And and yourpoint about LA Takedown versus Heat is an illustration
of that. It's the same moviewith a an inferior cast the first time around

(40:53):
and a superior cast the secondtime around. Did Michael Mann suddenly become
a better director? MichaelMann's been a great director for a long time,
right? He's made great moviesfor a long time. Did Michael Mann suddenly
just take a level in directing?
No, he had the money to hire better actorsand then trusted them to do
the job. So that, that to me goes to, it speaksto how you interact with your

(41:13):
crew. Right. If 90% of directing actors iscasting 90% of making a movie
is the people you hire around you to supportyour vision and then trusting
them to do it.
And I've learned a lot from Corey inthat way that you need to honor everybody.
Every single person that's gonna dowhat they're doing, you got it, you can't diminish

(41:37):
anyone. You have to raise everybodyup, whether that's the grip, the PA, just the
set hands who are college interns onour last project. We had six or seven people
show up and I didn't even know whothey were. They were just friends of friends
who showed up and they were holdingstuff and moving tarp. You know, but we have
to like treat them with that massiverespect, not just like average level, but just

(42:00):
grace because they're, you know, they'vegot to feel that from you as the leader.
Yeah, I can't say enough aboutcasting. It's my favorite part of pre-production.
It goes back to my love ofmovies is the character development. You probably
say a lot about a lot of thefilms I've made in terms of some of the choices

(42:21):
I've made. But the acting,that's the one thing that I've always been
very proud of. Even in my worst.
films in terms of like how they got ended upputting together and paced,
the acting is still just incredible and that'sbecause that's what I care
about the most and you know I love the castingprocess a lot of producers
and directors like kind of don't but I loveit and I love to audition with

(42:44):
actors and I love to spend as much time withit as I can on each project
And you know, our Exile, theproject that Frank and I just put out, our
main actor got recognized ata film festival. She won like the best actor

(43:08):
in her genre. And to me, youknow, an actor's award is a director's award
in my opinion.

[P (43:14):
Agreed. So, yeah, let's talk about Exile actually, because it has a lot
of parallels to Volition. Lots of screens, sniper, gunplay, drama, kind of a sparse location set, whateveryou want to call it, right?
Mysterious voice over comms manipulating thesniper. There's a lot of...

(43:39):
I feel like you guys are building up to a sniperanthology or something.
We’re working on the third one right now.

[Cor (43:48):
I've, yeah, I immediately, you know, I told Frank, I'm like, dude, this
is a trilogy, right? Like wedid Volition, then you wrote this, like, there
has to be a third, you know,in to make it a complete like trilogy.
We're kind of thinking two old veteran snipers that are like an Enemy at the Gates thingwhere they've got a bead on each other and they won't get out, I don't know.

[Paul DeNigris] (44:11):
So tell us, tell us again, little quick synopsis
of, of Exile. I'll run a clip.
We can talk about the differences between that,the execution of that project
and the execution of Volition and howyou applied what you learned
on Volition
Corey, synopsis, you're the director,Corey. Synopsis of exile, hit it.

[ (44:32):
Oh, yeah, I was going to say, well, you're the writer. You know, so, yeah.
Well, yeah, I mean, I'll tryto do as close to a log line as possible. Exile's
a story about a career assassinwho is disenchanted with who she's always been

(44:53):
and wants out of an organizationand of an industry, really, that you really
can't walk away from without.
giving up your life. And so she schemes a planto try and escape during the
last assignment she's on. And then there's,as with Frank's projects, in
this trilogy, there's always a twist at theend.

[Pau (46:18):
All right, so not a lot of VFX in that film. In fact, we did one shot,
if I'm not mistaken. One single,no, maybe it was two. Maybe

[Frank] (46:28):
it was the one We talked about two, it was the one

[Paul DeNigris] (46:28):
Was it just the one?
Yeah.

[Pau (46:33):
Yeah, okay, so it was just the explosion. Just the explosion when her
laptop exploded, spoilers.

[Cor (46:38):
It was just the explosion, although you and your team had some great ideas
for that final shot where shecomes and picks up the gun. But I guess it
was a little out of our budgetand we thought, well, the scene still works.
And even Paul, we asked youabout it and you said, look, it still works.
It'd be cool, it'd be great,but without it, it's still there. I mean, you've

(47:02):
got the practical haze andall this stuff. And so we didn't do that part,
but you did the explosion.
And it's fantastic. This one, we planned forit to actually be VFX. We shot
the shots in order for it to be the right typeof footage that your team needed,
I hope. Love to hear your comments on that.

(47:29):
clean plan with Frank and Iand the cinematographer. to make sure that
we provided the footage thatwould work to do that final explosion. So.

[Pa (47:43):
Yeah, it worked great. What you guys shot was exactly what we needed. And
it was really refreshing actuallyto do just a single shot and be able to put
everything that we had creativelyinto that single shot and make it as good as
possible. A lot of times whenfilmmakers come to us, it's paint out this

(48:04):
reflection, paint out thisboom pole. You know, can you replace the phone
screen? It's all good. Youknow, I'll take, I'll take the work. It's,
it's fine. It's bread and buttertype stuff. But when it comes down to it, it's
like, give me something reallyjuicy that, uh, I can collaborate on with you
and with my team. And, andthat shot was a collaboration, uh, between

(48:26):
myself as compositor and, uh,and Seth Wise, who is my animation supervisor
doing, uh, fluid dynamic simulationof the explosion in X-Particles and all of
that sort of stuff. And it'syou allowing us to use some tools that we don't
always get to use because theclient eats their budget on, you know, paint
out the boom pole and stufflike that. And they don't really get to, they

(48:47):
don't get to say, Hey, do somethingreally extremely cool for us and make it, make
it sing because it's the oneand only VFX shot and it's gotta be perfect.
And it's gotta feel real. Uh,and, uh, and again, Michael Mann and other,
uh, other filmmakers of his,of his ilk, uh, I always go back to Christopher
Nolan. I want, and I said toSeth, this needs to feel like an explosion

(49:11):
in a Christopher Nolan movie,not from a Michael Bay movie. Right? Which
was a really[Frank]: We always say that.
easy way to communicate to him[Frank]: it feels like a Michael Bay movie.
it was an easy way for me tocommunicate to him the type of filmmakers that
you guys are, right? BecauseI was able to say, we're doing the hospital
explosion in The Dark Knight.
We're not doing, you know, pick any explosionin Transformers.

[Cor (49:35):
That's right. Yeah, and it was it was awesome because you know, we knew
that it was a certain typeof explosion, right? You know, that it would
be like the small arms firestyle. Frank can speak more to the technicalities
of it, but like a shape chargetype of thing that's meant to be contained
so that there's like no collateraldamage or whatever. Right. And so it was really

(49:55):
fun to kind of, you know, turnit over to Frank and you. Paul and have Frank
kind of explain to you andgive you some benchmarks of what type of an
explosive that it would beand what that charge would look like when it's
detonated. So, you know, andit just looks incredible and totally real.
And, you know, when I showit to people, they're just like, oh, how'd
you blow up a building? Andsaid, well, we didn't, you know.

(50:17):
But to your point a moment ago whenyou talked about the pre-work, there's two
things. The first thing is we didn'thave any digital assets on the screens anymore
because we built them ahead of time.
We had the time, we put in the work. And justfor your independent community of filmmakers,
we use Photoshop and PowerPoint and PowerPointhas built in animations. We use some
stock footage. We built in assets and I wasjust using a clicker, a PowerPoint

(50:41):
clicker off-set and I knew the beats in momentsand when the cam was there it could
get in focus out of focus We'd make the assetcome up the way we want that was our
plan originally, but we were stuck on the timeframeBut not this time around so if you
know the fix it in post It should be like at-shirt like don't ever do this Like
but if you know you've got something that isonly in post you can plan so much more,

(51:06):
you know efficiently. But the other part ofit was to help you as the VFX team
I don't know if it was spurred by your questionsor we just wanted to do it. We really
laid out the structure, the design of the weapon,the blast radius. I think we, as a
group, look collectively at a couple of YouTubeclips of IEDs going off

(51:29):
so that we couldsee the explosion pattern. The concept
for anybody in your audience who hasn't seenthe film yet, it is a small Pelican
case that is steel lined on the inside witha small compound C4 explosive charge
underneath a laptop that's triggered remotely.
So it's designed that it's gonna workin a specific direction at the computer operator,

(51:49):
and it's gonna be in this one targetedarea, and she's in the top floor of an office
building in downtown Chicago. So theblast radius would only be about 10 total feet
of actual concussive force, fire, smoke.
And so how do you do that in a millisecond?
And you're right, there are two shots.
There's that little millisecond of the explosioncoming off of the laptop. But then

(52:09):
on the outside, What's that smoke and concussiveeffect on the outside of the building?
And how do you do it in a way that still feelsrealistic? And I, at least for me,
searching for those YouTube clips of examplesof real explosions was really helpful
because Paul was like, which one? And Coreyand I were like, that one. That's the
closest element that we can think. And I thinkit just helped guide the process effectively.

[Corey Gilbert] (52:36):
Mm-hmm.

[P (52:36):
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of real world reference. I say this all the time to
my team because we do a lotof muzzle flashes and stuff, right? And you
can, that's a classic exampleof something you can get complacent about because
you, oh, I've done these amillion times. I'll just do what I did last
time. And what happens is asyou begin to drift further and further away

(52:58):
from reality, you don't realizeit because well, this is what mentally it's
supposed to look like, right?
So reference going back and watching, you know.
shell casing, injections andthings like that, or watching, um, you know,
real, real shape charge explosionsand, you know, all of that sort of stuff. I
always joke that if, if theFBI ever audited my, my Google search history,
they'd be like, this dude'sa serial killer or something.

[Cor (53:17):
Hmm. Yeah, that'd be Frank too. For sure. For Frank, you know,

[Frank] (53:24):
Yeah,

[Corey Gilbert] (53:24):
yeah.
same. Yeah. But something that blewmy mind recently, Nolan doesn't use muzzle
flashes and he doesn't use real weaponfire. So I watched Tenet over and over and
there's a lot of scenes where it'spure audio. So I don't wanna take away any
VFX work from you, but if you're anindependent filmmaker, the sound of a gun going
off or the sound of an explosion. cando so much more for the audience than just

(53:49):
the visual because it's milliseconds.
So I've watched a lot of Nolan stuff now wherea person will bring up a gun. I don't
even see a shell going out. I don't see a muzzleflash. It's just the bang, you know,
and the audience jolts a little bit and Nolangot across his point and he keeps moving
forward pretty quickly.

[Paul DeNigris] (54:06):
Right. Yeah.

[Frank] (54:06):
Yeah.

[Corey Gilbert] (54:07):
Mm-hmm.
And similarly in your explosionscene, you know, you guys are doing a lot of
the heavy lifting with sound.
You're also doing it with practical smoke onset with some lighting effects
on set to, so that when, you know, we havethat digital explosion kind
of sandwiched in between a practical lightgoing off and an actor reacting,
and then the, the smoke and you know, sparksand whatever after that, that

(54:30):
sandwich of real fake real kind of makes thewhole thing work way better.
Corey kept putting haze in the scene. I was like, is thattoo much? He was like, No, keep going. More,
more smoke, more haze. It turned outreally, really well.

[Cor (54:50):
yeah. And that final shot, you know, because I knew that, you know, that
was going to be that was possiblygoing to have to be our, you know, residue
from an explosion. And so,you know, I just wasn't shy with the haze and
that final, you know, in thatfinal sequence.
that final, you know, in thatfinal sequence. So.
Yeah, I mean, it's, you know,I just, for your audience, for the VFX stuff,

(55:13):
you know, you know, we, we.
We went into it with a plan knowing that ourstory was going to be told
very well with just this one piece of VFX.
Frank wrote a script wherethere only needed to be the one moment. There
could have probably been abunch more, but there didn't need to be to

(55:35):
tell a compelling story. Thepoint being, just don't bite off more than
you can chew. Tell a storythat you know you can tell well. All independent
filmmakers, just tell a storythat you know you can tell well with however
much resources and fundingyou know you can get and then just start there

(55:58):
and then finish that one andthen move on to the next one.
All of that and then have Corey asyour director. Because we shot for two days
and it was like a lot of shots andwe took our time. Paul, I crap you not. We
were over time. We had only like 30minutes left and we had three shots left. And
I get this point where I'm like, we'renot gonna make it, we're not gonna make it.

(56:20):
And Corey was like, just leave me alone.
And the last shots of the film were the lastthem, one right after another. He was
in like a laser zoneand the last shot, I think is the best
shot of the whole movie. So you could showthat to your audience right now if
you want to, it's cool. But you were in yourzone, brother.

[ (56:43):
Frank Ever the director, he's giving direction to my editor.
No, it's great. What's onepiece of advice you would give to independent
filmmakers who, and I thinkwe've probably already covered this, but let's
put a point on it. What's onepiece of advice you would give to an independent

(57:03):
filmmaker who wants to useVFX to help tell their story and maybe doesn't
have experience with it yet?
I have a piece of advice. Hopefullyit's not too jargony, but create an animatic
for whatever sequences theVFX is going to be in. For instance, our explosion,

(57:26):
and perhaps you'll show itin the edit of this, but our explosion in Exile,
it was one explosion. We knewit was going to happen in one or two shots.
And so you know I created actual, like, storyboardsthat are the exact framing
of the shots that we were gonna do, and thenjust did a fake Photoshop explosion,
and then create an animatic, right? So evenif you're just doing stick

(57:51):
drawings or whatever, create an animatic, putit together in Premiere, and
time it out, and have that with you on seton your iPad, and have that
for the cinematographer and the director andthe actors, if there's actors
in the scene, and just... Yeah, create an animatic,even if it's just like your
own, you know, bad drawings, just create ananimatic for the crew and the

(58:13):
cast when you're on set so that you know you'redoing it correctly.
Wise words. I think mine is somethingI learned from you, Paul. If you are planning
on doing a project that is going tohave VFX, even when you're still in the writing
process, like if you get a first draftof the script, go find your VFX artist. Before

(58:35):
you ever get to post, or you ever getto set even, go get them. Go get them, show
them the script, ask them questions.
They will tell you what is realistic or notrealistic. They'll tell you what a
possible budget might be. so that you can accountfor those things. And then when you're
in the writing process, all of a sudden you'relike, well I have three different explosions
or this one thing where this jet flies overhead.

(58:57):
And you're like, well do I need thejet? Because the jet's an extra two grand.
Do we not need that? Is it relevantto the story? And so what you can do is you
can calculate everything you're puttinginto the bucket before you take that bucket
to set. And the other thing I learnedfrom you is, then, they'll tell you, the VFX

(59:18):
team will tell you exactly what theyneed from you. And the earlier they are involved
in the process, the better it's gonnabe for you, the production, all the crew, because
they're not coming in on the back endtrying to sift through your stack of papers
going, well, let me see what I cando with this. So collaborate as early as possible.

(59:42):
Yeah.
Sage advice there. That's justhuge. Working with someone on the front end
before you go into the project.
In all the levels, especially VFX. But evenwith your editor and all that,
I like to talk with people even on the post-productionside before I go into a project.

(01:00:04):
The other thing it does for me as thefilmmaker, it lets me relax because there's
nothing worse than you're doing something.
You're like, we're gonna insert an explosionright here or we're gonna have this
laser beam right here. And like, I dunno we'llfigure it out on the back end. We'll
get the person. Like that's stressful. Butif you, you know, if Corey and I were
doing something, we're like, all right, we'vealready coordinated. That's already
prepared and it's on the shelf and when weneed it, we can get there. So now we

(01:00:28):
can focus our energy. and in the right direction,which is what we're doing in the moment
on set.

[Pau (01:00:36):
Yeah, those are both great pieces of advice, the pre-production part and
also the recruiting the team.
I mean, it's again, recurring theme on theshow. Where can people find
out more about what you guys are up to andmaybe get an early look at
this next part of your sniper trilogy?

(01:00:59):
It’s trilogy now. Dang it. We do have tomake a third one, don't we?
Corey, I mean, they should go obviouslyto your website, right? P3 Media Works.
Yeah, for me, p3mediaworks.com,that's my production company. You'll see maybe
a couple of shots from a coupleof my indie films, like maybe in some of our
reels. It's technically notp3mediaworks.com, although my company is always

(01:01:24):
sort of an executive directorbecause we're using a lot of my gear and things
like that. But p3mediaworks.com,that's where you can find out all about me.
How long have I known you, Corey? 20years?

[Corey Gilb (01:01:41):
2006, so, you know,

[Frank] (01:01:45):
All right.

[Corey Gilbert] (01:01:45):
17 years.
That's when I had my website builtwith Corey. So it's that old, but I'll send
you to it. It's powerforwardfilms.com.
So it's there and it's got some stuff. I'mbig on Instagram, F-T-Z underscore
film. You can find me there. But creatively,those are the best places to find me.

[Pa (01:02:03):
That's great. I wanna thank you guys so much for spending this time with
me. I hope my audience appreciatesyour wisdom and your advice and a little peek
behind the curtain of the filmsthat you guys have been doing. And I really
encourage you, audience members,to follow these guys and watch what they're
doing because they're doingsome really cool stuff. And I wanna thank you

(01:02:24):
all for watching the show ifyou're watching on YouTube or listening to
the show if you're on one ofthe many podcast services that we’re listed on now. If
you liked what you saw or heard,please, you know, throw us a like and a subscribe
on YouTube. Or if you're onone of those podcasts aggregators, a follow,
a star review or rating, anysort of thing like that is always going to

(01:02:47):
help and please share the showwith the independent filmmaker in your life
who needs to know more abouthow to use VFX to tell their stories. For myself,
my guests and my whole teamat Foxtrot X-Ray. I'm Paul DeNigris signing
off for the VFX for Indiesshow. Thanks so much.