November 15, 2023 • 61 mins
Ever wondered about the gritty intricacies of indie filmmaking? We're pulling back the curtain on that world with this engaging chat with the dynamic duo behind the crime thriller, 'The Last Deal'. Editor Ryan Liebert, who has come a long way from self-funded films, shares his journey from no-budget indies to editing a feature with Hollywood icon Nicolas Cage. Then writer-director Jonathan Salemi gives us a walkthrough of how he developed the concept of 'The Last Deal' based upon the resources he had.
We take you right into the thick of things, discussing how the film was edited remotely and how that impacted the workflow. We also reveal the practical and visual effects used in 'The Last Deal' and the challenges faced while creating crucial scenes. Jonathan and Ryan share their insights on the marriage of practical and digital effects and how VFX was their secret weapon in extending the tension and creating a more realistic scene.
As we wind down, we take a deep dive into the role of post-production in filmmaking and the art of film editing. Ryan and Jonathan share their experiences of working within a tight timeline, managing limitations of budget while ensuring the scenes stay powerful. No filmmaking chat is complete without some tips and tricks. So, we wrap up the episode with some sage advice for filmmakers on how to work effectively with VFX artists and the importance of having a clear vision for a project. An exciting and informative listen, this episode promises you a peek into the behind-the-scenes process of indie filmmaking. So tune in, let's get rolling!
Watch 'The Last Deal' here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.35a95f1e-493e-49ee-b0f3-23da08699c7c?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb
Hosted by Foxtrot X-Ray’s founder and “chief pixel pusher” Paul DeNigris, who brings to the conversation 30 years of experience in both independent filmmaking and visual effects, as well as 20 years of experience in teaching all aspects of digital filmmaking at the university level.
For episodes, transcripts, and more, visit http://vfxforindies.com
For more information about what Foxtrot X-Ray can do for your film, visit https://foxtrotxray.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
When cannabis becomes legal, a blackmarket marijuana dealer tries to make one
final score before getting squeezed out ofthe business in Jonathan Salemi's gritty
LA crime feature, The Last Deal, this weekon VFX for Indies.
(00:35):
Hello and welcome to this episode of VFXfor Indies, the podcast about the
intersection of visual effects andindependent filmmaking.
I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, visualeffects supervisor, filmmaker, and CEO of
boutique VFX shop, Foxtrot X-Ray.
With me today are two of the filmmakersbehind the indie gritty crime thriller,
The Last Deal.
(00:55):
With us today, we have editor, RyanLiebert, and director, Jonathan Salemi.
Welcome to the podcast, guys.
[Jonathan (01:02):
Thanks for having us.
[Paul DeNigris] (01:05):
Right on.
So before we dive into The Last Deal andall of the effects that we worked on for
you guys on that film, give us just abrief introduction. Who you are and kind
of where you're at in your career, whatyou've worked on, you know, sort of the
broad strokes and the highlights.
Ryan, why don't you go first?
Sure, I'm an editor freelance.
(01:27):
I've been doing it about 10, 12 years.
Took a really long time to get traction,especially in film.
Started kind of, you know, with very, verylow budget self-funded films where I did the
work for free and just basically got theschool of hard knocks on how to organize
(01:47):
and edit a feature and then undo thatbecause the movie's not working and then
redo it and make it the best you can allthe way through distribution.
It was a real learning process but donekind of trial by fire.
I started with some colleagues that I knewwho were in similar positions as me who
(02:08):
couldn't really get hired in the positionsthey wanted to, so you had to do it yourself.
And, you know, that was right kind of at thebeginning of...
DSLRs being good enough to shoot, youknow, cinematically and then
using Final Cut Pro to do a feature.
And so again, it was done kind of verymuch blindly and learning lessons the hard way
(02:28):
You know, all the while I would still worka regular job on set as a photographer's
assistant and I would edit at night.
And then I would take in any jobs I couldget throughout the years,
whether it be music videos oryou know, ad-based work or, but the goal
was always, I did a lot of short films aswell, but the goal was always narrative.
And I built some momentum for a littlewhile doing some very, very low budget indies.
(02:51):
And then, you know, that lasted till about2017 and then features dried up for a
while because some of the filmmakers I wasworking with weren't able to get funds to
do another film.
So I just kind of really grinded in shortform and continued to work freelance,
which was great.
And then in about 2020, I got a reallygreat opportunity to cut a feature with a
(03:17):
director who had an in with a Nicolas Cagemovie called Willy's Wonderland.
And for me, this was like a hugeopportunity.
And I always tried to partner withdirectors.
That's a big goal of mine is to become aneditor a director has to work with.
So anytime I've gotten a first opportunitywith someone, I always tried to really
(03:39):
knock it out of the park.
And so this was no exception.
You know, this director hadn't directed in10 years and all of his, you know, all of
his crew that he worked with in the pasthad long moved on.
So, you know, I got to go out to Atlantaand be on set and, well, slightly adjacent.
And I would get dailies sent to me every dayand I was just grinding so hard on that.
(04:00):
I would put in 14-hour days because mygoal was to really wow everybody on this
film.
And by the time we wrapped our 20 dayshoot, I already had 45 minutes of offline
assembled.
And within a week of getting back to LosAngeles, I had a first cut.
And that worked in my favor in somerespect, but it also exposed some aspects
(04:22):
of how I work, that I work maybe a littletoo quick sometimes.
But anyway, it ended up coinciding withthe beginning of the pandemic, which
changed everything.
We had just submitted the director's cutand we were getting ready to get everyone
together with producers and everything andthen we all got sent home.
And so I had to quickly kind of scrambleto get it at home, set up, working, and
(04:44):
then do months of revisions all remotely.
And that was in the early stages of remoteediting and it was a real challenge.
But we ended up getting the film done.
The experience was not the greatest, but Ibonded with my director and we've since
done four films together.
all remotely.
I've only seen him once in the last threeyears.
And, you know, I've been able to find abit of a niche doing some remote editing.
(05:11):
No, I don't live in Los Angeles anymore.
I moved back to the East Coast to Vermont.
So I live rural, but I edit as if I'm in LA.
And I've been able to sustain that for thelast couple of years.
And, you know, kind of organically metJonathan through
I believe it was a Mandy job posting ad.
I was just scavenging the internet lookingfor more work.
(05:31):
And he had mentioned that he saw one of mymovies, not Willy's Wonderland, but one of
them that stood out to him as a moviereally crafted by an editor and he
appreciated that and we started talking.
And so when I took over The Last Deal, hehad already done a full assembly of the
film, and which was new for me.
I've always done everything from theground up.
(05:53):
I don't ever work with an assist.
I build my preps.
I do it all myself.
I’ve just always done it that way.
And I like that process.
It really gets me in depth access to themovie.
And as I always say, it gets me on thesame page as the director who's already
completely inundated with the wholeproject.
So with this, I took Jonathan's cut and Istill started from scratch, but I would
reference his story beats that he wastrying to hit.
(06:15):
And, you know, excuse me, one thing Ireally tried to do was bring a sense of
rhythm.
and ramp up the pace where I can.
And the thing that immediately attractedto me about his movie was, you know, it
had so many different locations and setupsand scenes.
And so the pace was already naturallythere, you know, whereas certain films
(06:35):
I've done in the past, which are singlelocation based, you know, you enter one
room and you exit a room and you start ascene in another.
So this just had lots of great jumps.
And I know something that was big withJonathan was coming into a scene as if the
scene was already going on.
And it just really helps ramp up theenergy and the pace of a film, even if it
is a simple dialogue scene.
And then as we continue to refine thefilm, one thing I greatly respect Jonathan
(06:59):
for is he kept going out and shooting morebecause we just needed more.
We needed more and we needed more.
And particularly for our intro to the filmand certain aspects of the film, he just
kept having the ability to add more.
And that's one of the beautiful thingsabout being kind of unrestricted is you
can just go out and if you have youractor, you can go bring them out to a
bridge in the middle of the night and getthat cool shot that, you know.
really helps emotionally connect at thatpoint of the film.
(07:21):
So that experience was really cool becauseI would say for a post edit, it lasted
longer than normal.
Now they weren't like full-time days allthe time, but it went on for months longer
than a film that doesn't do reshoots goeson for, but ultimately a year removed from
the film, I rewatched it with my wife notlong ago and I was just, all those extra
(07:42):
details, all those extra shots, all thoseextra scenes really bring the film to
another level.
And that's one of the things that stoodout the most to me about it.
But since then, I've done another two orthree films, some with Kevin Lewis, my
other director, and another with a firstanother first time director, which was
another bit of a challenge.
But, you know, just thankful to be able tocut narrative while working from home and
(08:05):
raising two twin toddlers and just tryingto keep my life in balance.
Right on.
And one of the things that I really loveabout The Last Deal, and we'll get more
into the movie as we go, but one of thethings I really love about it is that
propulsive drive that it has throughout it.
(08:26):
It has its moments where it breathes, butfor the most part it never lets up.
It just has that constant thrum tempounderneath it, which is wonderful.
But even in some of those moments where itbreathes, we added intense driving music,
so it still feels like it's beingpropelled forward.
You know, that was key.
(08:47):
Heat was a big reference for us, and thatto me always had this,
do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, justlike a driving beat throughout the film,
even when it was slow.
And I think that was really, and thenthere were times when you slow it down
emotionally and the filmmaking slows downwith it, but it juxtaposes great against
that intensity that we have throughout the restof the film.
So that was to me one of the most standoutthings was that sweet spot of emotional pacing.
(09:12):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Michael Mann andHeat in particular.
And in fact, I just I just discussed Heatas an influence with another couple of
filmmakers on the podcast a couple ofepisodes ago.
And and yeah, I definitely felt when Iwhen I walked out of the screening, when I
saw The Last Deal at Dances with Films,when I walked out, I immediately my gut
(09:35):
was that was like a vintage Michael Mann movie.
It just it had that feel.
So.
[Ryan Liebert] (09:40):
That's awesome.
Don’t let that go to your head, Jonathan.
Well, the day before I started working onit, I watched Heat.
As I try to do the day before I start amovie, I try to watch a specific film to
give me some fresh influence.
And that was an easy one, just based onthe script and what I'd saw in his cut.
It's like it just felt that authenticityof a location-based LA film just Heat
(10:04):
through and through.
And honestly, I leaned into that in scenesbecause LA is this noisy, chaotic place,
and he was doing so many exterior shots.
where the sound was all over the place, soI just added more of that ambience to it.
Just really gets you feeling like thathelicopter's coming down on you and the
freeway is so loud over your head.
And so, you know, having lived in LA, Iknow those sounds and I just, I look for
(10:27):
that more and more as we were building outthe texture of the film.
Yeah, that was the other thing I said.
I thought that The Last Deal would make agreat double feature with like
Drive or Heat or To Live and Die in LA.
Any of those classic, you know, LAneo-noirs.
Yeah, it would really work well.
All right, so before we dive even furtherinto The Last Deal and how much fun it was
(10:51):
to watch and how much fun it was to workon, Jonathan, why don't you give us a
quick overview of who you are and kind ofwhat your career path has been like that
brought you to The Last Deal.
Now, first off, I'm glad I got the blackt-shirt memo.
[Paul DeNigris] (11:05):
Yes
[J (11:06):
But second off, yes, I know.
[Ryan Liebert] (11:07):
Its a uniform.
[Pau (11:09):
It’s the filmmaker uniform
I have like 20 of these t-shirts.
Yeah, black t-shirt And when we go to a film festival, you justput the black blazer over the black t-shirt and you're set.
[Ryan Liebert] (11:18):
Yep, exactly.
My background's pretty similar to Ryan's.
Same exact setup, you know, starting onFinal Cut, not X, but the original Final Cut.
It actually goes all the way, so my firstfeature was a small Super 16 feature
(11:38):
called Ante Up, and that was back when, toget all my music, I used Myspace.
So I would find bands on Myspace and thenthey would send me their tracks
and it was amazing.
It was like really feeling like moderntechnology at that time.
But I grew up in Massachusetts and I movedout here to Los Angeles.
(12:01):
Started at Sony Pictures at an internshipfor Doug Wick.
Doug Wick is an Academy Award winningproducer who did Gladiator,
Gladiator 2 right now.
Stuart Little, the Divergent series, Memoirs of a Geisha.
And that was a great experience being onthe lot and running the golf cart and
(12:22):
delivering packages to Amy Pascal inperson and stuff like that.
And that's when I made Ante Up, which wasthe first feature.
And then it didn't do what I wanted it todo as far as being seen.
And I was very young at the time, like inmy late 20s.
So I didn't really have a lot of educationor knowledge for what you do after you
(12:44):
finish the film.
And that's a big thing that I always talkabout with filmmakers is like, you can't
just think about making your cut andthat's it.
You really got to look at the long game.
And that's like a five to ten year longgame.
And that's the way, not to jump ahead, butwhen we made The Last Deal, I look at it
as a five to ten year long game for howyou're rolling it out
(13:07):
and where it's going.
But regardless, so we can go back to that.
But I finished Ante Up, did a coupleof shorts, did three shorts.
Because I really wanted to experience likegetting a movie out there the proper way
and how that works and those shorts didvery well, which I was incredibly thankful for.
(13:27):
And then just started doing a bunch ofdocumentaries at the same time.
So produced documentaries, which I enjoyedfinding subject matters that were relevant
for myself and got into TV, doing fieldproducing, which is very much the same as
as documentary work in regards to likebeing on set and interviewing somebody and
(13:50):
gathering sound bites and that sort.
But what ended up happening was I wasn'tgetting a feature.
So we're talking about a almost, I don'tknow what you want to call that,
12 year span there.
And I recognize that it was a lot of funfor me exploring a lot of the
(14:11):
creative juices that I had, like with thedifferent films I made, whether it was
sci-fi or whatever the subject was, and Irealized that in order for me to propel
the career, people weren't going to hireme to make their feature, even with
whatever short films I made and thesuccess they had or anything like that,
(14:32):
I really had to do it myself and makesomething a little bit more commercial.
And so that's where the genesis for TheLast Deal came in mind.
for me to make something, the originalidea was to make something for like
$50,000 that I was going to make no matterwhat in the summer of April 2020.
And I put a checklist together of allthese elements that I had access to.
(14:55):
And that's why when Ryan spoke about allthe locations, those were all elements
that I had access to.
And then I reverse engineered a movie,like had the elements and then was like,
okay, what's my story?
And then how can I put as many of thoseelements in there as possible?
And so yeah, so that came about in October2019.
(15:18):
I had that checklist, like pounding thepavement,
trying to find out what the story is.
And I should also add, it's very hardfinding a screenplay.
Like, Ante Up went into the Sunset Five.
I don't know if you remember the Sunset 5?
It’s now, I think it’s an AMC 6 Dine-In.
It's on Crescent Heights and Sunset.
So like kind of...
(15:39):
like the biggest indie venue in thecountry.
And it played there and it was reallygood.
Like it opened me up to opportunities, buteven with that, it's near impossible to
find a screenplay unless you're one of themajors or your roommate or yourself.
So you really have to do it yourself.
(15:59):
And I came up with the idea October 2019for what The Last Deal would be about.
And it literally, I had an outlinewithin a week.
I was writing the draft by January.
I finished the draft in January and I wasin pre in January.
Pretty crazy.
(16:19):
And then I was rewriting it, notrewriting, but I was doing my normal
organic flow of making my subsequentdrafts from January till we started
shooting in August.
So it was an interesting situation becauseI know how your first draft
is complete shit.
Or at least for me, it's like it's notthat good but I know the process and how
(16:41):
long it takes to make it into a moldable,feasible form that you can shoot
and I just trusted that I was like, okay by thetime I get on set I'll have that.
and so that's what we ended up doingand Ryan came on when I had the assembly cut
because, you know, we're dealing with a verylow budget film that fifty thousand grew
(17:02):
because I ended up getting investors andall that and that's how I ended up
getting Ryan and I didn't know who myeditor would be, but I knew the process
from doing this plenty of times that, hey,I'll get into post and I'll figure it out.
I'll just keep it moving.
And I did, it was very fortunate that therewas never a lapse.
And I made the assembly cut and I knewthat I needed to make the trailer and all
(17:25):
that to get a quality editor aboard.
I didn't want somebody that was going towork deferred or...
was going to make very, very low skill.
Like I wanted a legit person that couldcut the film that was qualified,
that I didn't have to repeat things to,that I didn't have to,
there's a term called frame fucking,that I didn't have to do any of that.
I mean, I don't think I did Ryan,
[Ryan Lieb (17:48):
You sure about that?
Maybe a couple of times, but it was so minimal.
Like working with Ryan was very seamless.
And so yeah, and that's how I got Ryan.
I don't think I would have got himall these other elements weren’t in place.
And he came aboard very grateful and gotthat, which creates a very seamless
(18:10):
post-production process.
Someone that also understands all thetechnicals of post and I don't have to
have problems when we're doing our online.
I was gonna use an expletive there, but Ididn't.
But yeah, so it was very seamless.
You know.
You already said frame fucking,so that cat's out of the bag.
(18:31):
You can feel free to curse as much as you want.
[Ryan L (18:32):
That’s a technical term
I agree, and in VFX we have pixel fucking, right?
It gets even smaller than the frame.
So that's the short story there.
And then yeah, the Michael Mann wasdefinitely a key part of the whole thing.
I remember during the winter of 2019, as Iwas writing the script,
(18:53):
I read Thief in front of the fireplace.
I've seen Thief before, but it was like,hey, I wanna see his early words.
Michael Mann wrote Thief.
And yeah, before Ryan started, he sent mea picture.
of the beginning heist with Wayne Groveand the hockey mask, I think.
(19:15):
I think it was Wayne Grove and the hockeymask.
And so yeah, so that's what we went with.
We had our game plan, like, hey, we wantto make this like, Thief, very energetic,
always moving, really feel theenvironments.
My sound, post sound team, who did anamazing job, Michael, over at Naga Sound.
(19:38):
That was something I kept hammeringinto him.
I was like, hey, I know it goes againstyour norm, but I really want to feel the environment
We did a very good job of recording inthese environments and I want to feel it.
Really put that helicopter in there,really put that train, really put that
siren, we have it there,I want to feel it.
I know it goes against your Netflix notesand all that stuff, but that's what I want.
(20:04):
Within means. It's gotta be a compromise.
And he did that and he like exploded.
Like it was just amazing how much he didthat because you can only do so much.
Cause with post sound, you really have tolike take out a lot of the post,
the environmental sound.
So this way you can hear the dialogueclearly.
But, um, and I respect what he does.
(20:25):
And I was like, Hey, you know, as much ofthose notes that you can put in there.
Um, and I think he felt the aggressivenature of that and, and did it to a point
where it wasn't, um, bad.
I can't think of the bad word, butdiminishing returns.
So yeah, that's kind of the short storythere.
Yeah, and that's certainly the soundscapecertainly helps make LA.
(20:48):
And I know it's such a cliche, right?
Everybody says, oh, LA is a character inthe movie.
Every right.
But it really is like the like I couldn'tpicture the last deal as it is now being
being set anywhere else, right?
It's the texture and the character of LosAngeles is just so woven into the movie
(21:09):
that it feels very specific and grounded.
I think enhances the overallexperience.
Why don't we give the audience just aquick synopsis like back of the Blu-ray cover
synopsis of The Last Deal, and thenI'll roll a clip of the trailer.
Sure, so I haven't said the log line in awhile, but The Last Deal is about
a black market cannabis dealer who attempts tomake one last deal when marijuana becomes
(21:35):
legal in California before he getssqueezed out of the business.
(22:31):
That was an excerpt from thetrailer of The Last Deal.
Give you a little flavor of what themovie's about.
Let's do a little bit of a dive into theVFX because we ended up doing
about 60 VFX shots for you guys.
I don't know if you had other vendors thatwere working on the film that maybe did more
but we touched about 60 of the shotsand it kind of ran the gamut.
(22:52):
Some of it was just...
sort of our standard cleanup stuff.
Hey, I can see the actor's mic stickingout of his shirt, things like that.
Some of it was, as you would imagine, it'sa crime thriller, little bit of gunplay,
not a ton, certainly nowhere near thebullet ballet of things like Heat.
But guns go off and we did some littleflashes there.
(23:14):
But then I think the biggest and mostdifficult shots were some fairly complex
makeup things that we...
we did to enhance some of the effects thatyou guys had done on set.
Why don't we just start there?
Like, how did you come to VFX?
Because from my perspective, it felt likeyou hadn't really planned VFX as part of
(23:37):
your process, right?
That most of these shots had beendiscovered in post, but maybe because I
didn't come onto the film until post,maybe I'm not fully understanding how we got there.
Yeah, so I knew we needed some VFX, butbefore we start any picture, you know,
you might have a boom mic or shadows orsomething like that.
(23:59):
So I knew baked in there would be that.
And I was hoping... and the gunshots, I knewthe gunshots would have VFX.
But outside of that, I was hoping forminimal.
The mic stuff that just happens, which youtook care of that, which was amazing.
The big one was the blood gags.
(24:20):
Paul, you did like, you just blew that outof the park.
Like that's just an amazing part.
Everyone always comments on it, like ahuge part of the film.
And what we did there was we had thepractical on set.
So we shot that one day where we had thepractical and the shot we're talking about
(24:41):
here in question is a neck slice.
And we had our special effects person onset.
with the pump that went up the back of theshirt under here.
And he had the prosthetic or the, howeverhe made it, so on Mister's neck.
So you couldn't see the valve or the pumpthere.
(25:05):
And then when we slice his neck, you know,he hits the, I think he had like an oxygen
tank or something like that.
He hits that and then it just blows up andcomes down.
Now,These things are incredibly temperamental.
They don't always work.
We had complications on the day.
(25:26):
And then when it was time to do it, as thesun was setting, it didn't exactly work.
It was like a trickle.
It was like a couple of trickles, if yourecall.
I think it was like two or three.
Like there was one mainstream and thenmaybe a couple other small ones.
Or I think the first one, no, the firstone actually was just bad.
It was just bad.
And it went in the backand it went all down Mister's
(25:47):
back, Mister's the actor, and he just hadblood all over him.
It was a mess.
So we had to go back the next day.
I think we did a five day shoot schedule,so Monday through Friday with weekends off.
And we're like, hey, let's go back onSaturday.
Is everyone free?
And by everyone, we just needed Mister,Special Effects, Dominic, who was our DP.
(26:14):
And then myself, I was like, hey, I'llhold the reflector or the flag or
whatever.
So we went back, let special effects taketheir time, do their thing, and they did
it, and it didn't exactly work like theway we wanted it to.
It was the plate that we ended up usingthat you used, which was one long stream,
(26:36):
and then it was a couple smaller streams.
And it just didn't look good.
And I was like, I can't have that.
And I forgetoh wait, how did I get in touch with
you Paul?
Is it through a mutual friend?
It's... I don't even remember it feels solong ago.
It was definitley a mutual friend.
It was someone you worked with before.
(26:57):
And I got in touch with Paul and you saw it.
And then I think we all collaborated.
Ryan did the original cut.
He even thought it was lame the way it looked.
And Ryan's pretty blunt.
He's got a deadpan bluntness.
And if he says it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
So we gave it to you.
(27:18):
And I forget how many versions of that we did butHe just did an amazing job with not only
utilizing the practical in combinationwith the VFX, which I think made it really
stand out, but also doing the saturationon the shirt.
So as it's coming down, we see thesaturation and like, I couldn't have been
more pleased with how that came out.
(27:39):
It's such a critical moment in the film too, and weknew that going into it.
It's one of the hardest scenes, it is thehardest scene to assemble in the whole
film because of the amount of moving partsand the emotional beat that happens when
our lead character sees his friendbasically get executed in front of him.
And the practical took you completely outof the moment.
(28:02):
And there's no hiding from that.
You know, you guys do your best on set toget it in camera and
And I do my best to cut it practically.
So if you didn't have the absolute abilityto go into VFX and make it better,
we still have the best version of it that wecan possibly get out of what you
got on the day.
And what was interesting about that one isthat once we knew we had a bit of a VFX plan
(28:25):
we started adjusting the editslightly because then we now know we could
sit in that shot longer, whereas before wecouldn't do that.
And again, it was such a critical momentthat it had to
enhance the realism and when we saw itfinalized with an audience, it was worth
all of that tinkering because of themoment. It was powerful and it paid off.
[Paul DeNigris] (28:46):
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, that was that was a challenge.
That sequence, there was a like four orfive shots in the sequence as the blood
And even a Christopher Nolan movie,there's tons of CGI, there's tons of VFX
But the biggest challenge was, like yousaid, that prosthetic that was on his neck
on Mr's neck.
It was problematic.
And I can I can definitely see a versionwhere knowing that the exposing the seam,
(29:12):
because as he as his head gets pulled backand exposes that the seam of the prosthetic
And you know, you don't want to hold on it for very long.
Right.
But in the, in the final cut, because weended up rebuilding his neck, we stole
pixels of his neck from like two or threeother shots in the sequence and basically
rebuilt all of the skin and the stubbleand razor burn and everything that was
(29:35):
going on in his neck, we rebuilt all ofthat and tracked it in there so that when
the dude with the knife pulls his headback and they hold it.
There's a beat where we're holding it forquite a while as your lead character is
anticipating that this is gonna happen.
And so you could stretch that moment out.
(29:56):
So it's a really good example of how theVFX process enabled you guys to really
tell that story beatthe way you wanted to tell it.
[Ryan (30:05):
And enhance the tension.
Cause that was so much in that moment was trying to buildthe tension.
And you're right, if we would have left itas it was, I couldn't live in that shot
long enough because it would just readfake and whatever.
So being able to build that moment up aslong as possible is something I'm always
trying to do.
And that was super helpful to be able tolive in it and feel real, and have it feel real.
(30:28):
And I want to stress this, you know,because I do talk a lot about, we do a lot
of work that is us enhancing practicalmakeup.
And I want to stress this for anyfilmmakers who are out there who are
listening or makeup artists who arelistening, anytime we're talking about,
anytime I'm talking about enhancing thework that practical makeup people do on
set, it's never meant as an insult to that work.
(30:51):
I'm not taking anything away from the workthat the practical effects people do.
You're hampered by the limitations of timeand money and daylight and all of the
things that we fight against for literallyevery shot in an independent film.
When you add the complexity of some sortof prosthetic effect and then make up, or blood,
that has to spew on cue and it hasto time out with the actors, you know, the
(31:15):
actor moving the knife and the actorreacting to being cut, there's a million
things that can go wrong.
This is a really great example where thepractical and the digital
help each other so much, right?
Because we were building this completelyfrom scratch where we had no reference for
what the practical blood was doing, how itwas falling, how it was catching the light.
(31:38):
And the actor didn't have that feeling ofhaving that prosthetic effect happen to
him on set that he could play off of.
Doesn't matter how good my visual effectsare, I'm now having to like
invent everything from whole cloth andnot, not having the reality of the scene
to kind of latch on to.
So it's a it's a beautiful marriage oflike practical and digital.
(32:01):
So I hope any practical effects people whoare listening to this are not are not
feeling like this is a criticism of yourarc.
You guys are amazing.
The stuff you do makes the stuff I do somuch better.
[Jonathan Salemi] (32:14):
Exactly.
And I think going forward, it's even acase, because you're dealing with science here
a little bit dealing with gravity andscience and, and that sort, um, when
you're dealing with special effects andit's not always going to work, you know,
according to the way the directorenvisions it working.
Um, and I think going forward, justknowing like, Hey, can special effects and
(32:37):
VFX work together to make this the bestpossible. And, you know, going forward,
that's something that I really want to do,you know, as an artist is work with those
two all the time.
Be like, hey, you know, special effectsnails it, like, like gets it like dream
scenario, like, like shooting star, like,then great.
(32:57):
But like, if they if they can't, which islike almost an unattainable goal sometimes,
then, you know, VFX justenhances it, you know, just helps it.
It's much the same of like your DP workingwith color grading, you know.
Like a lot of your DPs are, speaking inthe lower budget world, they're maybe
(33:20):
correcting on set and having it prettysimilar to the way it's going to look.
And maybe something is a little underlit.
And then your colorist is enhancing thewindowing that and creating more light or
exposing it greater in a certain part ofthe screen.
That's no knock against the DP.
It's just teams work in tandem.
(33:41):
I think those are two teams.
that can work in tandem, at least for me,like as a filmmaker. Like seeing what you did, Paul,
and what special effects did.
That's something I definitely wanna dobecause I know guaranteed, I'm gonna get
the result that I want.
And it's utilizing all the tools in yourtoolbox.
I mean, everybody wants to get itperfectly practically in camera, the
(34:02):
purest filmmaker, you know, but the truthis, is that it's really hard to get this
stuff in camera and, you know, having theability to make every aspect of your film
as good as it can be is what you reallyshould be striving for.
So, you know, and that's, again, one thingthat's so hard about being a director, I think is
(34:24):
being relentless in your pursuit ofgetting it the best you can do within your
budget time and framework and all that.
And certain things are non-negotiable anda scene like that is non-negotiable.
It has to really sell.
So you know, the two have to work togetherand if anybody were to get offended
because their work got replaced digitally,you know, the scene is better because of
(34:46):
it and that's the reality of the film.
You know, we're all trying to make it asgood as we can.
Yeah, because like the biggest, one of therecurring themes for me during making the movie
is I've watched enough of movies inmy life.
We all have.
And all three of us have worked in the lowbudget world enough that we know when
things don't look professional.
Like not professional, but likeHollywood big screen standard.
(35:11):
And sometimes it's a matter of fivepercent.
I've been saying this for years, sometimesa matter of five percent that makes your
film not look like ahigher budgeted Hollywood film.
And in my head the entire time, it's notdriving me like my motivation for
directing the actors or anything likethat, but it's like the things that I can
(35:32):
control, I never want it to look like it'snot a Michael Mann film.
That's what I'm trying to make.
I'm trying to make a huge ass movie.
And I'm not allowing myself to not get that.
But meanwhile, you do have to compromise.
And I'm not saying The Last Deal lookslike a Mann or whatever film,
what I'm saying is, is how close to that can I getwith what I have?
(35:56):
And that was always, and everything,that's my main goal always, is to like,
that's where I wanna work, so that's whatI should make.
I mean truly, that shot is, as you said, it's a greatexample of what we're trying to do here in indie, right?
Like it's, we're trying to make intensefilms as real as possible and
(36:20):
we need all the tools we can get.
And that's just a great use of everythingwe got in our tool belt.
[Paul DeNigris] (36:25):
Yeah.
but because the cinematography, theacting, the writing, the music, the sound design
the, you know, the sound of the ofthe knife through skin, the sound of the
blood coming out, you know, all of thatworks together.
The film is the sum of its parts.
The reason I bring up the whole, you know,my sensitivity to how I talk about the
(36:46):
practical effects trades is because thereoften is...there's, I think, way too much of this dialogue
particularly in the general public about,well, CGI is bad, practical is good.
And filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, whoare wonderful and really focused on
(37:07):
getting in a camera, they kind of feedthat narrative of CGI bad, practical good.
And I don't wanna add fuel to that fireand be the guy who is like, no,
CGI is better because the practical is fucked upand we fixed it.
That's not it.
It's about there always needs to be a beautifulmarriage of the two.
(37:28):
that he's not talking about because itdoesn't fit the narrative of how he wants
to portray what he does, which is fine.
Unfortunately, VFX people get the sort ofget the brunt of, oh, there's too much CGI
or too much bad CGI in a movie.
And I always say like, too much CGI or toomuch VFX is a,
(37:49):
that's kind of an illegitimate criticism.
That's like saying,Ryan used too many cuts in the movie.
Jonathan's DP put too many lights up inthe scene.
It's a tool.
It's not a matter of too much.
It's a matter of did we use it right?
[Ryan Lieber (38:05):
I was gonna say, a lot of the greatest effects work, digital
effects work is invisible, right?
You shouldn't see it.
And it should feel real.
And so much of, I know what you did forour film and what I've seen in films that
I admire, that it's an invisible hand inthe film that's still meant to just keep
your audience focused on the story and theemotion.
(38:28):
And all of that stuff supports that.
And, you know, it...
Yeah, the people that say Nolan doesn't,it's just so good you don't see it and you
never will.
And that's what we try to do even at thislevel is to try to make it invisible and
to try to make it as photo real aspossible.
[Paul DeNigris] (38:46):
Right.
You know, I'm on a mission to try andeducate everybody that I talk to when I,
when I see those posts on social media,Oh, there's too much CGI.
No, the CGI didn't support the story orthe CGI took you out of the story.
It's not that there's too much.
It's probably that there was not enoughtime, not enough money.
And it's probably that it distracted from,they were trying to fix something that
(39:09):
they didn't spend time on, like writing agood script, you know, shooting the right
material, et cetera.
So you're not really reacting to thequality or the amount of CGI, you're
reacting to the sum total of the parts.
And the CGI is the thing that sticks outbecause it's been sort of slapped on like
a coat of paint that doesn't belong.
Yeah, because we've all seen movies thatare really good, where the VFX and the CGI
(39:34):
is not very good, but doesn't take us outof the story at all.
And, you know, I think that's when youhave a good marriage is where, you know,
the VFX CGI is complementing the story.
You know, you're at the mercy of the storyat all times.
So it sounds like, you know, coming out ofThe Last Deal,
(39:54):
you've got a new appreciation for kind of practical anddigital working together.
And it sounds like that's something thatyou're gonna explore further in future projects, Jonathan.
What other takeaways came from the VFXexperience or the post experience in
general that may affect the stories you'regonna try and tell in future movies or
kind of how you're gonna tackle thosestories?
(40:16):
Um, well, the immediate thing I thoughtof, uh, and I knew some of this or a lot
of this prior just from past shoots wasthere's a lot of things as a director that
you don't need to fix on set that I canfix in post.
And that's the worst thing to say, like,we'll fix it in post.
But, but, but there's certain, there'scertain things that if you see on set
(40:38):
that, you know, Hey, this will take Xamount of time to fix now.
Meanwhile, I know, okay, I know that's aneasy fix.
We'll fix that in post.
for VFX things, not for...
That term gets thrown away around way toomuch and not to use it the wrong way, but
stuff like that, making me a moreefficient director.
That's probably the best wayto summarize it.
(40:59):
In regards to story and using VFX, youknow, there's the whole aspect of gunshots
if you wanna go down that road where youcan do that in VFX.
I personally really like the blood aspect.
I mean, I've seen movies where, I stilllike squibs, you know, but I've seen
(41:20):
movies where they use too much VFX bloodand you can totally tell, like it's VFX
blood spraying.
But I think mostly it's working in tandem,like the marriage between the two
departments, knowing that you can elevatea project.
Yeah.
Ryan, how about you?
What, in terms of the VFX process onThe Last Deal, might have surprised you
(41:43):
aside from the throat slash thing, because Ithink we've really dissected that one, pun intended.
Maybe going into a future edit, what'ssomething about the VFX process that you
might incorporate into a future project?
Yeah, sure.
So from my perspective, The Last Deal wasactually very light on effects work
(42:06):
compared to some of the horror films I do.
And since The Last Deal, I've done twohorror films, one that's finished and out
and one that's in finishing right now.
And they have heavy effects sequences.
And I often don't know what level of VFXwe're going to have.
(42:27):
It's not within my control.
I have to do the best practical edit I can do withthe plates that I have, with the,
you know, the gags that are done practicallyand whatever.
And I have to have an imagination as towhat I think this can be.
How much time do I need to allow in orderto sell this with effects?
Can I use this shot?
It looks cheesy as it is, but I knoweffects can do this.
(42:50):
So I have to really open up my imaginationand try to envision the shot with a...
with a VizEffect that's not even remotelydesigned yet.
Because unfortunately on the budget tierthat I work on, I don't get to work in
tangent with VFX.
There's not a back and forth.
I'm not working with animatics ortemplates that are being worked.
(43:11):
I have to really either rough it myself orimagine.
And then we have to do that all the waythrough the approval process of directors cut,
producers, because it doesn'tnecessarily go into effects until we're
picture locked.
And...
So that was what was a little different onJonathan's film is we were able to parse
out pieces of the film to you as we werestill working because the post-process
(43:33):
went on about a year, not blaming you,Jonathan.
But when I have three months, well, again,this was a very different experience.
Sounds like he’s blaming you, Jonathan.
Well, again, this was a very different experience.
[ (43:41):
I’m never calling Ryan again.
But generally I have three to four monthsto do my offline and I basically,
I turn over conform prep to a finishing house andthey take it from there.
But I still have to build these sequencesknowing they're gonna go through a VFX world.
So then, you know, I will then keep reelsthat are VFX heavy unlocked after I
(44:06):
delivered them just in case I need toextend the shot another little bit or we
have to pull this shot because they don'thave the budget to do this one.
So it's keeping me flexible in certainsequences because I know they're not 100%
of what they can be yet.
They will be as good as they can be oncethey finish effects, but I don't really
(44:26):
have anything to say or do with thatbecause, you know, I'm strictly doing an
offline and once I ship that I'm done.
So, so what it's taught me is to just beflexible in those sequences, see the
possibilities in what was shot and try touse everything that's in the dailies to
build the sequence out, knowing that wecan fix it in post post, right?
(44:48):
LikeIt still has room to improve even after we
call it lock.
So just staying open and flexible is thebest thing I can say.
I'd love to work in tangent with effectsand build these sequences together, but
not quite at that level yet.
Yeah, that's the holy grail, right?
(45:08):
That's what we want.
We want Jonathan to call both of us upwhile the script is still being polished
and start having these conversations,right?
And bring the cinematographer and thesound designer and the composer and all of
us that are part of the team, bring us inas early as possible so we can start
having these conversations.
(45:29):
So it is that constant passing of thebaton back and forth to get the best result.
[Ryan Liebert] (45:34):
Right.
But I've also seen that can get a littlecarried away sometimes where you can, you
know, you get promised the moon sometimes.
And I know when we did Willy's Wonderland,we were having very, very positive early
responses to the film.
And we had a VFX company come on and said,pretend this is the Avengers, do whatever
you want to do.
And, and you know what ended up happeningthat ended up being a completely
(45:57):
fraudulent company and the whole thingwent under and the and the VFX became this
sugar thrown on top.
And so it's just, you really have to dealwith what you have in front of you at the time.
And, and, you know, and, and as it passeson to the next people in line, you know,
they're going to do what they can to do tomake the film and, you know, you just hope
it helps the film and doesn't hurt it.
(46:19):
I thought of an example of fixing itin post is when you're on set and you're
shooting and your actor gets a performanceand everyone's hugging each other because
it was all amazing.
And then you're watching the playback andyou see the mic wire.
That's an example of like, hey, we don'tneed to shoot that again.
Like I know what it costs in post.
(46:40):
I know what it costs on set if we redo itright here.
and we waste time, but that's an exampleof fix it in post.
Yeah, and it's not just a money cost.
It's also the cost of, are you gonna getas good a performance out of the actor?
Right?
You're gonna end up going, yeah, the firsttake really was the best, right?
So now you've wasted the time to shoot itand you still are gonna use the better
(47:04):
take and ask for it to be painted out.
So you might as well just move on.
It's about having the confidence on set tobe able to go, yeah, we got this, let's move on.
Ryan, how...
So remind me, and it's a while back thatwe worked on this film.
Remind me, were you responsible forturnovers of plates to me on The Last Deal?
Or was there someone else that we, so you,so you did that.
(47:25):
How, how often do you do that versus howoften does that, you know, get, get done
by whoever the is going to do the, uh, theonline or the DI.
Really depends.
I would say Jonathan's film is one of thefew that I have done that for.
I don't typically like to work with rawfootage at all.
(47:45):
So in that case we were using 6 andsometimes 8K R3D files and just very
burdensome videos to put little files towork with.
So no, I took a little extra.
I did a little extra as far asas far as conforming that and prepping all
that stuff and shipping it on a hard driveto you.
(48:08):
Because I knew what kind of film I wasworking on.
I knew we weren't going to an Intropic ora Sugar Studios or someone that's gonna
do, that thing's gonna put in a bid to dothe entire finishing process.
Whereas on some of the other films I'vedone that have, they might be in the
$1 to $5 million budget range, they've gotthat extra $200,000, $300,000 to send it to a finishing house.
(48:31):
So it just becomes more of a conformedchecklist that I go through to make sure
that what they're looking at is the sameas what I'm looking at, that the repos and
stuff that I've done in the edit, thehidden things that I've done, they're all
conforming properly.
And just kind of going through checklistsand then becoming more of a client and
just reviewing the work and making surethat it's kind of what both the director
(48:54):
and I were intending.
But no, I often will send the reels outand offline material to get conformed for
DI and then they'll piece out what theyneed for effects and just reference
against my offline cut.
You know, the funny thing about plates isI'll often get, I feel like they'll shoot
(49:14):
plates all the time in a scene, it's likegetting room tone.
They'll shoot plates of a room and I'll begoing through and I'll organize all my plates.
But I never work in a plate.
I will ship the plates, I can put a stringout of plates together and I can ship them
out separately, but I never reallyincorporate plates unless it's something
very, very specific.
(49:34):
And I feel like sometimes they just,do that stuff on set because that's what
some effects supervisor says you'resupposed to do and it doesn't help me tell
the story in the edit whatsoever.
I know it's a tool that can be used andit's helpful but I just again like I
package those up and send thoseseparately.
So how often are you doing what I wouldcall a slap comp or a temp comp in the timeline?
(49:59):
And related to that, a topic that's comeup a couple of times on the podcast has
been this idea of editing within the framewhere you are able to take, say actor A
nails it on take one, but actor B doesn'twarm up until take five, being able to
take a two shot.
that has two actors with very differentrhythms and being able to put them
(50:22):
together in the same shot so that they'reboth at their best.
How often are you doing something like that?
The split comping, you know, I've studiedit a little bit.
I don't, you know, to me, it's a very, itopens up the editorial decisions tenfold.
You know, there are already a billiondecisions to be made when cutting a performance.
(50:46):
And like, I know like Fincher's team willsplit comp everything.
And I often, you know, I feel like,You do that in ensemble shots, I feel like
more when you're sharing the frame.
And a lot of what I do is more singles andyou know, I'll live in two shots when I
can, but I, I'm not that picky to wherethe nodding and the pacing of the person
(51:13):
who's not speaking needs to be adjusted.
Um, unless it's egregious.
Um, I have done it a little bit.
Um, but not a lot.
It's something that I feel like...
talk about frame fucking can really hamperyour progress in post, you can just get
caught up on the minutiae of these thingssometimes.
(51:35):
And I'm always trying to move along myassemblies relatively quickly and go with
my gut with performances.
And if there's a conversation with adirector feels strong about one
performance and I feel strongly aboutanother performance, I can find a way to
find a nice healthy balance byjust rearranging the sequence a little bit
or cutting to off-camera dialogue andreplacing that line.
(52:00):
So I know that tool is at my disposal andI can use it if I have to, but to me, it
seems a bit overkill.
And then to your first question, I willrough in effects.
I did a film where I have a plate shot ofa creature yelling and their mouth is
supposed to open and a hand is supposed tocome out.
(52:23):
and grab someone's face, right?
And it's supposed to be, but I need tosell that in my rough edit.
So I will do what I call the poor man'sversion of it.
And I'll just mat out the hand poorly andI'll size it and place it.
And I'll always put text on the bottom,you know, FPO or VFX like,
but I do the best I can to sell the mostimportant aspect of what is trying to be conveyed.
(52:49):
And so that we know that, okay, this willwork..
when we get there, when we finally havethe resources and ability to do it right.
And I've seen the finished product versuswhat I did and they're often like, the
idea is there, the idea is there, theexecution is far, far better.
So I'm fairly weak when it comes tocomping and effects work.
(53:11):
I just don't have the patience for it.
Pixels and moving one frame at a time, ittakes a special level of patience.
And I like to deal with frenetic pacingand 24 frames a second.
So I do it when I have to and when I needto sell an idea.
(53:34):
And then I trust that it'll get finishedthe right way.
[Paul DeNig (53:38):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, I really appreciate filmmakers whocan turn over temp comps from the editor
because a lot of times, yeah, you and thedirector may have had a lot of
conversations about what's supposed tohappen there.
And then I'm brought in post and this is,okay, a hand has to come out of his mouth.
Well, do we have timing, all of this sortof stuff?
(54:00):
How does it cut in with the context aroundit?
And you've already sort of mapped that outso now I can just...
I can just follow your map.
it's still an editorial decision about howthat hand moves.
I need to make a select of that hand'smovement and timing and time it with my...
so it's still a very deliberate editorialselection.
So I will just, I will put that up, I willbuild my layers up.
(54:24):
And when I turn over, I'll put thoseaffected layers on its own layer.
And if y'all need to slip it to make itwork for your needs by all means, and
we'll go back and forth and make sure thatI feel that the timing feels good still.
But yeah, I make sure that the editorialaspect of it is where I need it to be.
You know, it just might not look seamlessor even remotely seamless.
(54:46):
Doesn't need to. On behalf of every VFXartist you ever work with from here in perpetuity,
Thank you.
[Ryan Liebert] (54:52):
You're welcome.
Yeah, it's a little over and beyond thecall of duty right there.
[Paul DeNi (54:57):
No.. it's fantastic.
And that's, again, one of the reasons I dothe podcast is because I think all
filmmakers, and by filmmakers, I mean notjust directors, but everybody, we're all
filmmakers, right?
Whether you're a producer, you're aneditor, you're a DP, you're a sound
person, you're a filmmaker, you're helpingtell the story.
You need to understand a little bit abouteverything.
(55:17):
Doesn't mean you need to be an expert, butyou need to be able to have the conversation.
You need to be able to provide what theother departments need to do their job.
And that's my soapbox.
I'm gonna ask each of you to kind of geton your soapbox a little bit.
What is one piece of advice you would giveto a new filmmaker, maybe not even
necessarily a new filmmaker, but afilmmaker who's new to visual effects,
(55:40):
who's doing a film where VFX are going tobe needed, and they don't know where to
start, or they just started coming to youfor advice.
What's a piece of advice you would givethem?
Well, you know, I was thinking about itwhile you were asking the question.
And the first thing I would say is,is don't get overwhelmed by it.
There's, you know, when you're editing afilm or narrative of any kind, there's
(56:01):
certain scenes that are very easy to edit.
The decisions are clear and, you know, youdon't have to worry about all these extra things.
And then there's scenes in the film thatkeep you up at night that you really,
you don't know the potential of it because...
it's going to be enhanced with effects.
So, so to not get overwhelmed by theunknowns that you're facing when you're
(56:24):
building that sequence and then to have animagination and try to visualize what you
want it to be while you're cutting it, youmight not be able to replicate that, but
really try to have an imagination with itand try to allow yourself the time in the
shot to, to pay off what you're hopingwill be accomplished with effects.
(56:47):
Yeah, and to his point, definitely have avision for what it is that you want.
Because I think sometimes what can happen,not just with VFX, but with DPs and
editors, is if you're new to this, evennot new, you could end up like being very
passive and going with the direction thatthey're choosing, not the direction that
(57:08):
you want.
And then that puts both you in a cornerwhere now you deliver this thing, and then
the director's like, hey, that's notreally what I want.
But I just did all this work.
So I think, really think about like, whatis, know your vision, what it is that you want
How can you communicate that, but thencollaborate with your VFX guy or with your
(57:28):
editor to make the product that you want.
So this way there's the least amount ofbackwards.
And you're gonna occasionally havebackwards, but if you're consistently
going backwards, you're just gonnafrustrate everybody.
Have a vision, stick to it, but know youneed to compromise.
Great advice, both of you, great, greatadvice.
(57:50):
Where can people find out more about whatyou're up to and where can people watch
The Last Deal?
So The Last Deal is here in the States.
You can watch it on Starz and Encore.
It's free on demand there, or you can goto Amazon, or your favorite platform,
Apple, Vudu, Google.
We also have a version in Espanol.
(58:13):
So it's a beautiful dub.
It's an amazing dub.
I sounded like Trump there.
It's a beautiful dub, but it's a greatdub.
I really liked it.
And then it's also in Ireland and the UK.
Both of those are on demand, so go to yourfavorite platform there.
(58:35):
It's also in Korea.
So I don't know about North Korea, but Iknow it's in South Korea.
So you can watch it in all those places.
And then if you wanna learn more, I highlyencourage people going to our Instagram,
@theLastDealmovie.
We tend to update that a lot.
(58:55):
We've been very fortunate.
We...
We've been on a lot of podcasts and we'vehad a lot of reviews and fortunately they
all been favorable.
Um, so yeah, please check it out.
Ryan, how about you?
Where can people find out more about whatyou're up to and keep track of upcoming projects?
I mean IMDB is the best spot but I have awebsite ryanliebert.com where I just I will
(59:19):
update you know the films that I've thatare that are out.
I have three films in finishing right now.
Obviously it's a little slow right now andwe're not quite sure how long it's going
to last but you know I've got two filmscoming out in ‘24 one slated for ’25.
(59:41):
So keep a lookout for a movie called Oak,a movie called Don Q, and then a movie
called Pig Hill.
Well, thanks so much for being part of theshow, guys.
It's been a really great conversation.
Great catching up with both of you.
And I'm sure that the audience willbenefit from your wisdom and your
(01:00:02):
experience.
So thanks so much for being here.
[Jonathan Sale (01:00:05):
Thank you, Paul.
[Ryan Liebert] (01:00:05):
Thanks.
Appreciate it, Paul.
Thank you.
And to my audience, if you're watchingthis on YouTube, like, subscribe and a
comment will go a long way towards helpingus reach our audience.
And if there's something that you want tosee on future shows, please be sure to
comment and let me know if you havequestions for these guys, please post the
comments and I will convey those questionsto them.
(01:00:27):
And if you're listening on iTunes orSpotify or one of the million podcast
aggregators out there.
Something like a star rating, a review,and a follow would also be very, very helpful.
And if you have an indie filmmaker in yourlife who needs to hear this stuff, please
send them the podcast.
On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X-Ray andon behalf of the crew that puts together
(01:00:49):
the VFX for Indies show, I'm Paul DeNigris, and I say thanks.
When cannabis becomes legal, a blackmarket marijuana dealer tries to make one
final score before getting squeezed out ofthe business in Jonathan Salemi's gritty
LA crime feature, The Last Deal, this weekon VFX for Indies.
(00:35):
Hello and welcome to this episode of VFXfor Indies, the podcast about the
intersection of visual effects andindependent filmmaking.
I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, visualeffects supervisor, filmmaker, and CEO of
boutique VFX shop, Foxtrot X-Ray.
With me today are two of the filmmakersbehind the indie gritty crime thriller,
The Last Deal.
(00:55):
With us today, we have editor, RyanLiebert, and director, Jonathan Salemi.
Welcome to the podcast, guys.
[Jonathan (01:02):
Thanks for having us.
[Paul DeNigris] (01:05):
Right on.
So before we dive into The Last Deal andall of the effects that we worked on for
you guys on that film, give us just abrief introduction. Who you are and kind
of where you're at in your career, whatyou've worked on, you know, sort of the
broad strokes and the highlights.
Ryan, why don't you go first?
Sure, I'm an editor freelance.
(01:27):
I've been doing it about 10, 12 years.
Took a really long time to get traction,especially in film.
Started kind of, you know, with very, verylow budget self-funded films where I did the
work for free and just basically got theschool of hard knocks on how to organize
(01:47):
and edit a feature and then undo thatbecause the movie's not working and then
redo it and make it the best you can allthe way through distribution.
It was a real learning process but donekind of trial by fire.
I started with some colleagues that I knewwho were in similar positions as me who
(02:08):
couldn't really get hired in the positionsthey wanted to, so you had to do it yourself.
And, you know, that was right kind of at thebeginning of...
DSLRs being good enough to shoot, youknow, cinematically and then
using Final Cut Pro to do a feature.
And so again, it was done kind of verymuch blindly and learning lessons the hard way
(02:28):
You know, all the while I would still worka regular job on set as a photographer's
assistant and I would edit at night.
And then I would take in any jobs I couldget throughout the years,
whether it be music videos oryou know, ad-based work or, but the goal
was always, I did a lot of short films aswell, but the goal was always narrative.
And I built some momentum for a littlewhile doing some very, very low budget indies.
(02:51):
And then, you know, that lasted till about2017 and then features dried up for a
while because some of the filmmakers I wasworking with weren't able to get funds to
do another film.
So I just kind of really grinded in shortform and continued to work freelance,
which was great.
And then in about 2020, I got a reallygreat opportunity to cut a feature with a
(03:17):
director who had an in with a Nicolas Cagemovie called Willy's Wonderland.
And for me, this was like a hugeopportunity.
And I always tried to partner withdirectors.
That's a big goal of mine is to become aneditor a director has to work with.
So anytime I've gotten a first opportunitywith someone, I always tried to really
(03:39):
knock it out of the park.
And so this was no exception.
You know, this director hadn't directed in10 years and all of his, you know, all of
his crew that he worked with in the pasthad long moved on.
So, you know, I got to go out to Atlantaand be on set and, well, slightly adjacent.
And I would get dailies sent to me every dayand I was just grinding so hard on that.
(04:00):
I would put in 14-hour days because mygoal was to really wow everybody on this
film.
And by the time we wrapped our 20 dayshoot, I already had 45 minutes of offline
assembled.
And within a week of getting back to LosAngeles, I had a first cut.
And that worked in my favor in somerespect, but it also exposed some aspects
(04:22):
of how I work, that I work maybe a littletoo quick sometimes.
But anyway, it ended up coinciding withthe beginning of the pandemic, which
changed everything.
We had just submitted the director's cutand we were getting ready to get everyone
together with producers and everything andthen we all got sent home.
And so I had to quickly kind of scrambleto get it at home, set up, working, and
(04:44):
then do months of revisions all remotely.
And that was in the early stages of remoteediting and it was a real challenge.
But we ended up getting the film done.
The experience was not the greatest, but Ibonded with my director and we've since
done four films together.
all remotely.
I've only seen him once in the last threeyears.
And, you know, I've been able to find abit of a niche doing some remote editing.
(05:11):
No, I don't live in Los Angeles anymore.
I moved back to the East Coast to Vermont.
So I live rural, but I edit as if I'm in LA.
And I've been able to sustain that for thelast couple of years.
And, you know, kind of organically metJonathan through
I believe it was a Mandy job posting ad.
I was just scavenging the internet lookingfor more work.
(05:31):
And he had mentioned that he saw one of mymovies, not Willy's Wonderland, but one of
them that stood out to him as a moviereally crafted by an editor and he
appreciated that and we started talking.
And so when I took over The Last Deal, hehad already done a full assembly of the
film, and which was new for me.
I've always done everything from theground up.
(05:53):
I don't ever work with an assist.
I build my preps.
I do it all myself.
I’ve just always done it that way.
And I like that process.
It really gets me in depth access to themovie.
And as I always say, it gets me on thesame page as the director who's already
completely inundated with the wholeproject.
So with this, I took Jonathan's cut and Istill started from scratch, but I would
reference his story beats that he wastrying to hit.
(06:15):
And, you know, excuse me, one thing Ireally tried to do was bring a sense of
rhythm.
and ramp up the pace where I can.
And the thing that immediately attractedto me about his movie was, you know, it
had so many different locations and setupsand scenes.
And so the pace was already naturallythere, you know, whereas certain films
(06:35):
I've done in the past, which are singlelocation based, you know, you enter one
room and you exit a room and you start ascene in another.
So this just had lots of great jumps.
And I know something that was big withJonathan was coming into a scene as if the
scene was already going on.
And it just really helps ramp up theenergy and the pace of a film, even if it
is a simple dialogue scene.
And then as we continue to refine thefilm, one thing I greatly respect Jonathan
(06:59):
for is he kept going out and shooting morebecause we just needed more.
We needed more and we needed more.
And particularly for our intro to the filmand certain aspects of the film, he just
kept having the ability to add more.
And that's one of the beautiful thingsabout being kind of unrestricted is you
can just go out and if you have youractor, you can go bring them out to a
bridge in the middle of the night and getthat cool shot that, you know.
really helps emotionally connect at thatpoint of the film.
(07:21):
So that experience was really cool becauseI would say for a post edit, it lasted
longer than normal.
Now they weren't like full-time days allthe time, but it went on for months longer
than a film that doesn't do reshoots goeson for, but ultimately a year removed from
the film, I rewatched it with my wife notlong ago and I was just, all those extra
(07:42):
details, all those extra shots, all thoseextra scenes really bring the film to
another level.
And that's one of the things that stoodout the most to me about it.
But since then, I've done another two orthree films, some with Kevin Lewis, my
other director, and another with a firstanother first time director, which was
another bit of a challenge.
But, you know, just thankful to be able tocut narrative while working from home and
(08:05):
raising two twin toddlers and just tryingto keep my life in balance.
Right on.
And one of the things that I really loveabout The Last Deal, and we'll get more
into the movie as we go, but one of thethings I really love about it is that
propulsive drive that it has throughout it.
(08:26):
It has its moments where it breathes, butfor the most part it never lets up.
It just has that constant thrum tempounderneath it, which is wonderful.
But even in some of those moments where itbreathes, we added intense driving music,
so it still feels like it's beingpropelled forward.
You know, that was key.
(08:47):
Heat was a big reference for us, and thatto me always had this,
do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, justlike a driving beat throughout the film,
even when it was slow.
And I think that was really, and thenthere were times when you slow it down
emotionally and the filmmaking slows downwith it, but it juxtaposes great against
that intensity that we have throughout the restof the film.
So that was to me one of the most standoutthings was that sweet spot of emotional pacing.
(09:12):
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Michael Mann andHeat in particular.
And in fact, I just I just discussed Heatas an influence with another couple of
filmmakers on the podcast a couple ofepisodes ago.
And and yeah, I definitely felt when Iwhen I walked out of the screening, when I
saw The Last Deal at Dances with Films,when I walked out, I immediately my gut
(09:35):
was that was like a vintage Michael Mann movie.
It just it had that feel.
So.
[Ryan Liebert] (09:40):
That's awesome.
Don’t let that go to your head, Jonathan.
Well, the day before I started working onit, I watched Heat.
As I try to do the day before I start amovie, I try to watch a specific film to
give me some fresh influence.
And that was an easy one, just based onthe script and what I'd saw in his cut.
It's like it just felt that authenticityof a location-based LA film just Heat
(10:04):
through and through.
And honestly, I leaned into that in scenesbecause LA is this noisy, chaotic place,
and he was doing so many exterior shots.
where the sound was all over the place, soI just added more of that ambience to it.
Just really gets you feeling like thathelicopter's coming down on you and the
freeway is so loud over your head.
And so, you know, having lived in LA, Iknow those sounds and I just, I look for
(10:27):
that more and more as we were building outthe texture of the film.
Yeah, that was the other thing I said.
I thought that The Last Deal would make agreat double feature with like
Drive or Heat or To Live and Die in LA.
Any of those classic, you know, LAneo-noirs.
Yeah, it would really work well.
All right, so before we dive even furtherinto The Last Deal and how much fun it was
(10:51):
to watch and how much fun it was to workon, Jonathan, why don't you give us a
quick overview of who you are and kind ofwhat your career path has been like that
brought you to The Last Deal.
Now, first off, I'm glad I got the blackt-shirt memo.
[Paul DeNigris] (11:05):
Yes
[J (11:06):
But second off, yes, I know.
[Ryan Liebert] (11:07):
Its a uniform.
[Pau (11:09):
It’s the filmmaker uniform
I have like 20 of these t-shirts.
Yeah, black t-shirt And when we go to a film festival, you justput the black blazer over the black t-shirt and you're set.
[Ryan Liebert] (11:18):
Yep, exactly.
My background's pretty similar to Ryan's.
Same exact setup, you know, starting onFinal Cut, not X, but the original Final Cut.
It actually goes all the way, so my firstfeature was a small Super 16 feature
(11:38):
called Ante Up, and that was back when, toget all my music, I used Myspace.
So I would find bands on Myspace and thenthey would send me their tracks
and it was amazing.
It was like really feeling like moderntechnology at that time.
But I grew up in Massachusetts and I movedout here to Los Angeles.
(12:01):
Started at Sony Pictures at an internshipfor Doug Wick.
Doug Wick is an Academy Award winningproducer who did Gladiator,
Gladiator 2 right now.
Stuart Little, the Divergent series, Memoirs of a Geisha.
And that was a great experience being onthe lot and running the golf cart and
(12:22):
delivering packages to Amy Pascal inperson and stuff like that.
And that's when I made Ante Up, which wasthe first feature.
And then it didn't do what I wanted it todo as far as being seen.
And I was very young at the time, like inmy late 20s.
So I didn't really have a lot of educationor knowledge for what you do after you
(12:44):
finish the film.
And that's a big thing that I always talkabout with filmmakers is like, you can't
just think about making your cut andthat's it.
You really got to look at the long game.
And that's like a five to ten year longgame.
And that's the way, not to jump ahead, butwhen we made The Last Deal, I look at it
as a five to ten year long game for howyou're rolling it out
(13:07):
and where it's going.
But regardless, so we can go back to that.
But I finished Ante Up, did a coupleof shorts, did three shorts.
Because I really wanted to experience likegetting a movie out there the proper way
and how that works and those shorts didvery well, which I was incredibly thankful for.
(13:27):
And then just started doing a bunch ofdocumentaries at the same time.
So produced documentaries, which I enjoyedfinding subject matters that were relevant
for myself and got into TV, doing fieldproducing, which is very much the same as
as documentary work in regards to likebeing on set and interviewing somebody and
(13:50):
gathering sound bites and that sort.
But what ended up happening was I wasn'tgetting a feature.
So we're talking about a almost, I don'tknow what you want to call that,
12 year span there.
And I recognize that it was a lot of funfor me exploring a lot of the
(14:11):
creative juices that I had, like with thedifferent films I made, whether it was
sci-fi or whatever the subject was, and Irealized that in order for me to propel
the career, people weren't going to hireme to make their feature, even with
whatever short films I made and thesuccess they had or anything like that,
(14:32):
I really had to do it myself and makesomething a little bit more commercial.
And so that's where the genesis for TheLast Deal came in mind.
for me to make something, the originalidea was to make something for like
$50,000 that I was going to make no matterwhat in the summer of April 2020.
And I put a checklist together of allthese elements that I had access to.
(14:55):
And that's why when Ryan spoke about allthe locations, those were all elements
that I had access to.
And then I reverse engineered a movie,like had the elements and then was like,
okay, what's my story?
And then how can I put as many of thoseelements in there as possible?
And so yeah, so that came about in October2019.
(15:18):
I had that checklist, like pounding thepavement,
trying to find out what the story is.
And I should also add, it's very hardfinding a screenplay.
Like, Ante Up went into the Sunset Five.
I don't know if you remember the Sunset 5?
It’s now, I think it’s an AMC 6 Dine-In.
It's on Crescent Heights and Sunset.
So like kind of...
(15:39):
like the biggest indie venue in thecountry.
And it played there and it was reallygood.
Like it opened me up to opportunities, buteven with that, it's near impossible to
find a screenplay unless you're one of themajors or your roommate or yourself.
So you really have to do it yourself.
(15:59):
And I came up with the idea October 2019for what The Last Deal would be about.
And it literally, I had an outlinewithin a week.
I was writing the draft by January.
I finished the draft in January and I wasin pre in January.
Pretty crazy.
(16:19):
And then I was rewriting it, notrewriting, but I was doing my normal
organic flow of making my subsequentdrafts from January till we started
shooting in August.
So it was an interesting situation becauseI know how your first draft
is complete shit.
Or at least for me, it's like it's notthat good but I know the process and how
(16:41):
long it takes to make it into a moldable,feasible form that you can shoot
and I just trusted that I was like, okay by thetime I get on set I'll have that.
and so that's what we ended up doingand Ryan came on when I had the assembly cut
because, you know, we're dealing with a verylow budget film that fifty thousand grew
(17:02):
because I ended up getting investors andall that and that's how I ended up
getting Ryan and I didn't know who myeditor would be, but I knew the process
from doing this plenty of times that, hey,I'll get into post and I'll figure it out.
I'll just keep it moving.
And I did, it was very fortunate that therewas never a lapse.
And I made the assembly cut and I knewthat I needed to make the trailer and all
(17:25):
that to get a quality editor aboard.
I didn't want somebody that was going towork deferred or...
was going to make very, very low skill.
Like I wanted a legit person that couldcut the film that was qualified,
that I didn't have to repeat things to,that I didn't have to,
there's a term called frame fucking,that I didn't have to do any of that.
I mean, I don't think I did Ryan,
[Ryan Lieb (17:48):
You sure about that?
Maybe a couple of times, but it was so minimal.
Like working with Ryan was very seamless.
And so yeah, and that's how I got Ryan.
I don't think I would have got himall these other elements weren’t in place.
And he came aboard very grateful and gotthat, which creates a very seamless
(18:10):
post-production process.
Someone that also understands all thetechnicals of post and I don't have to
have problems when we're doing our online.
I was gonna use an expletive there, but Ididn't.
But yeah, so it was very seamless.
You know.
You already said frame fucking,so that cat's out of the bag.
(18:31):
You can feel free to curse as much as you want.
[Ryan L (18:32):
That’s a technical term
I agree, and in VFX we have pixel fucking, right?
It gets even smaller than the frame.
So that's the short story there.
And then yeah, the Michael Mann wasdefinitely a key part of the whole thing.
I remember during the winter of 2019, as Iwas writing the script,
(18:53):
I read Thief in front of the fireplace.
I've seen Thief before, but it was like,hey, I wanna see his early words.
Michael Mann wrote Thief.
And yeah, before Ryan started, he sent mea picture.
of the beginning heist with Wayne Groveand the hockey mask, I think.
(19:15):
I think it was Wayne Grove and the hockeymask.
And so yeah, so that's what we went with.
We had our game plan, like, hey, we wantto make this like, Thief, very energetic,
always moving, really feel theenvironments.
My sound, post sound team, who did anamazing job, Michael, over at Naga Sound.
(19:38):
That was something I kept hammeringinto him.
I was like, hey, I know it goes againstyour norm, but I really want to feel the environment
We did a very good job of recording inthese environments and I want to feel it.
Really put that helicopter in there,really put that train, really put that
siren, we have it there,I want to feel it.
I know it goes against your Netflix notesand all that stuff, but that's what I want.
(20:04):
Within means. It's gotta be a compromise.
And he did that and he like exploded.
Like it was just amazing how much he didthat because you can only do so much.
Cause with post sound, you really have tolike take out a lot of the post,
the environmental sound.
So this way you can hear the dialogueclearly.
But, um, and I respect what he does.
(20:25):
And I was like, Hey, you know, as much ofthose notes that you can put in there.
Um, and I think he felt the aggressivenature of that and, and did it to a point
where it wasn't, um, bad.
I can't think of the bad word, butdiminishing returns.
So yeah, that's kind of the short storythere.
Yeah, and that's certainly the soundscapecertainly helps make LA.
(20:48):
And I know it's such a cliche, right?
Everybody says, oh, LA is a character inthe movie.
Every right.
But it really is like the like I couldn'tpicture the last deal as it is now being
being set anywhere else, right?
It's the texture and the character of LosAngeles is just so woven into the movie
(21:09):
that it feels very specific and grounded.
I think enhances the overallexperience.
Why don't we give the audience just aquick synopsis like back of the Blu-ray cover
synopsis of The Last Deal, and thenI'll roll a clip of the trailer.
Sure, so I haven't said the log line in awhile, but The Last Deal is about
a black market cannabis dealer who attempts tomake one last deal when marijuana becomes
(21:35):
legal in California before he getssqueezed out of the business.
(22:31):
That was an excerpt from thetrailer of The Last Deal.
Give you a little flavor of what themovie's about.
Let's do a little bit of a dive into theVFX because we ended up doing
about 60 VFX shots for you guys.
I don't know if you had other vendors thatwere working on the film that maybe did more
but we touched about 60 of the shotsand it kind of ran the gamut.
(22:52):
Some of it was just...
sort of our standard cleanup stuff.
Hey, I can see the actor's mic stickingout of his shirt, things like that.
Some of it was, as you would imagine, it'sa crime thriller, little bit of gunplay,
not a ton, certainly nowhere near thebullet ballet of things like Heat.
But guns go off and we did some littleflashes there.
(23:14):
But then I think the biggest and mostdifficult shots were some fairly complex
makeup things that we...
we did to enhance some of the effects thatyou guys had done on set.
Why don't we just start there?
Like, how did you come to VFX?
Because from my perspective, it felt likeyou hadn't really planned VFX as part of
(23:37):
your process, right?
That most of these shots had beendiscovered in post, but maybe because I
didn't come onto the film until post,maybe I'm not fully understanding how we got there.
Yeah, so I knew we needed some VFX, butbefore we start any picture, you know,
you might have a boom mic or shadows orsomething like that.
(23:59):
So I knew baked in there would be that.
And I was hoping... and the gunshots, I knewthe gunshots would have VFX.
But outside of that, I was hoping forminimal.
The mic stuff that just happens, which youtook care of that, which was amazing.
The big one was the blood gags.
(24:20):
Paul, you did like, you just blew that outof the park.
Like that's just an amazing part.
Everyone always comments on it, like ahuge part of the film.
And what we did there was we had thepractical on set.
So we shot that one day where we had thepractical and the shot we're talking about
(24:41):
here in question is a neck slice.
And we had our special effects person onset.
with the pump that went up the back of theshirt under here.
And he had the prosthetic or the, howeverhe made it, so on Mister's neck.
So you couldn't see the valve or the pumpthere.
(25:05):
And then when we slice his neck, you know,he hits the, I think he had like an oxygen
tank or something like that.
He hits that and then it just blows up andcomes down.
Now,These things are incredibly temperamental.
They don't always work.
We had complications on the day.
(25:26):
And then when it was time to do it, as thesun was setting, it didn't exactly work.
It was like a trickle.
It was like a couple of trickles, if yourecall.
I think it was like two or three.
Like there was one mainstream and thenmaybe a couple other small ones.
Or I think the first one, no, the firstone actually was just bad.
It was just bad.
And it went in the backand it went all down Mister's
(25:47):
back, Mister's the actor, and he just hadblood all over him.
It was a mess.
So we had to go back the next day.
I think we did a five day shoot schedule,so Monday through Friday with weekends off.
And we're like, hey, let's go back onSaturday.
Is everyone free?
And by everyone, we just needed Mister,Special Effects, Dominic, who was our DP.
(26:14):
And then myself, I was like, hey, I'llhold the reflector or the flag or
whatever.
So we went back, let special effects taketheir time, do their thing, and they did
it, and it didn't exactly work like theway we wanted it to.
It was the plate that we ended up usingthat you used, which was one long stream,
(26:36):
and then it was a couple smaller streams.
And it just didn't look good.
And I was like, I can't have that.
And I forgetoh wait, how did I get in touch with
you Paul?
Is it through a mutual friend?
It's... I don't even remember it feels solong ago.
It was definitley a mutual friend.
It was someone you worked with before.
(26:57):
And I got in touch with Paul and you saw it.
And then I think we all collaborated.
Ryan did the original cut.
He even thought it was lame the way it looked.
And Ryan's pretty blunt.
He's got a deadpan bluntness.
And if he says it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
So we gave it to you.
(27:18):
And I forget how many versions of that we did butHe just did an amazing job with not only
utilizing the practical in combinationwith the VFX, which I think made it really
stand out, but also doing the saturationon the shirt.
So as it's coming down, we see thesaturation and like, I couldn't have been
more pleased with how that came out.
(27:39):
It's such a critical moment in the film too, and weknew that going into it.
It's one of the hardest scenes, it is thehardest scene to assemble in the whole
film because of the amount of moving partsand the emotional beat that happens when
our lead character sees his friendbasically get executed in front of him.
And the practical took you completely outof the moment.
(28:02):
And there's no hiding from that.
You know, you guys do your best on set toget it in camera and
And I do my best to cut it practically.
So if you didn't have the absolute abilityto go into VFX and make it better,
we still have the best version of it that wecan possibly get out of what you
got on the day.
And what was interesting about that one isthat once we knew we had a bit of a VFX plan
(28:25):
we started adjusting the editslightly because then we now know we could
sit in that shot longer, whereas before wecouldn't do that.
And again, it was such a critical momentthat it had to
enhance the realism and when we saw itfinalized with an audience, it was worth
all of that tinkering because of themoment. It was powerful and it paid off.
[Paul DeNigris] (28:46):
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah, that was that was a challenge.
That sequence, there was a like four orfive shots in the sequence as the blood
And even a Christopher Nolan movie,there's tons of CGI, there's tons of VFX
But the biggest challenge was, like yousaid, that prosthetic that was on his neck
on Mr's neck.
It was problematic.
And I can I can definitely see a versionwhere knowing that the exposing the seam,
(29:12):
because as he as his head gets pulled backand exposes that the seam of the prosthetic
And you know, you don't want to hold on it for very long.
Right.
But in the, in the final cut, because weended up rebuilding his neck, we stole
pixels of his neck from like two or threeother shots in the sequence and basically
rebuilt all of the skin and the stubbleand razor burn and everything that was
(29:35):
going on in his neck, we rebuilt all ofthat and tracked it in there so that when
the dude with the knife pulls his headback and they hold it.
There's a beat where we're holding it forquite a while as your lead character is
anticipating that this is gonna happen.
And so you could stretch that moment out.
(29:56):
So it's a really good example of how theVFX process enabled you guys to really
tell that story beatthe way you wanted to tell it.
[Ryan (30:05):
And enhance the tension.
Cause that was so much in that moment was trying to buildthe tension.
And you're right, if we would have left itas it was, I couldn't live in that shot
long enough because it would just readfake and whatever.
So being able to build that moment up aslong as possible is something I'm always
trying to do.
And that was super helpful to be able tolive in it and feel real, and have it feel real.
(30:28):
And I want to stress this, you know,because I do talk a lot about, we do a lot
of work that is us enhancing practicalmakeup.
And I want to stress this for anyfilmmakers who are out there who are
listening or makeup artists who arelistening, anytime we're talking about,
anytime I'm talking about enhancing thework that practical makeup people do on
set, it's never meant as an insult to that work.
(30:51):
I'm not taking anything away from the workthat the practical effects people do.
You're hampered by the limitations of timeand money and daylight and all of the
things that we fight against for literallyevery shot in an independent film.
When you add the complexity of some sortof prosthetic effect and then make up, or blood,
that has to spew on cue and it hasto time out with the actors, you know, the
(31:15):
actor moving the knife and the actorreacting to being cut, there's a million
things that can go wrong.
This is a really great example where thepractical and the digital
help each other so much, right?
Because we were building this completelyfrom scratch where we had no reference for
what the practical blood was doing, how itwas falling, how it was catching the light.
(31:38):
And the actor didn't have that feeling ofhaving that prosthetic effect happen to
him on set that he could play off of.
Doesn't matter how good my visual effectsare, I'm now having to like
invent everything from whole cloth andnot, not having the reality of the scene
to kind of latch on to.
So it's a it's a beautiful marriage oflike practical and digital.
(32:01):
So I hope any practical effects people whoare listening to this are not are not
feeling like this is a criticism of yourarc.
You guys are amazing.
The stuff you do makes the stuff I do somuch better.
[Jonathan Salemi] (32:14):
Exactly.
And I think going forward, it's even acase, because you're dealing with science here
a little bit dealing with gravity andscience and, and that sort, um, when
you're dealing with special effects andit's not always going to work, you know,
according to the way the directorenvisions it working.
Um, and I think going forward, justknowing like, Hey, can special effects and
(32:37):
VFX work together to make this the bestpossible. And, you know, going forward,
that's something that I really want to do,you know, as an artist is work with those
two all the time.
Be like, hey, you know, special effectsnails it, like, like gets it like dream
scenario, like, like shooting star, like,then great.
(32:57):
But like, if they if they can't, which islike almost an unattainable goal sometimes,
then, you know, VFX justenhances it, you know, just helps it.
It's much the same of like your DP workingwith color grading, you know.
Like a lot of your DPs are, speaking inthe lower budget world, they're maybe
(33:20):
correcting on set and having it prettysimilar to the way it's going to look.
And maybe something is a little underlit.
And then your colorist is enhancing thewindowing that and creating more light or
exposing it greater in a certain part ofthe screen.
That's no knock against the DP.
It's just teams work in tandem.
(33:41):
I think those are two teams.
that can work in tandem, at least for me,like as a filmmaker. Like seeing what you did, Paul,
and what special effects did.
That's something I definitely wanna dobecause I know guaranteed, I'm gonna get
the result that I want.
And it's utilizing all the tools in yourtoolbox.
I mean, everybody wants to get itperfectly practically in camera, the
(34:02):
purest filmmaker, you know, but the truthis, is that it's really hard to get this
stuff in camera and, you know, having theability to make every aspect of your film
as good as it can be is what you reallyshould be striving for.
So, you know, and that's, again, one thingthat's so hard about being a director, I think is
(34:24):
being relentless in your pursuit ofgetting it the best you can do within your
budget time and framework and all that.
And certain things are non-negotiable anda scene like that is non-negotiable.
It has to really sell.
So you know, the two have to work togetherand if anybody were to get offended
because their work got replaced digitally,you know, the scene is better because of
(34:46):
it and that's the reality of the film.
You know, we're all trying to make it asgood as we can.
Yeah, because like the biggest, one of therecurring themes for me during making the movie
is I've watched enough of movies inmy life.
We all have.
And all three of us have worked in the lowbudget world enough that we know when
things don't look professional.
Like not professional, but likeHollywood big screen standard.
(35:11):
And sometimes it's a matter of fivepercent.
I've been saying this for years, sometimesa matter of five percent that makes your
film not look like ahigher budgeted Hollywood film.
And in my head the entire time, it's notdriving me like my motivation for
directing the actors or anything likethat, but it's like the things that I can
(35:32):
control, I never want it to look like it'snot a Michael Mann film.
That's what I'm trying to make.
I'm trying to make a huge ass movie.
And I'm not allowing myself to not get that.
But meanwhile, you do have to compromise.
And I'm not saying The Last Deal lookslike a Mann or whatever film,
what I'm saying is, is how close to that can I getwith what I have?
(35:56):
And that was always, and everything,that's my main goal always, is to like,
that's where I wanna work, so that's whatI should make.
I mean truly, that shot is, as you said, it's a greatexample of what we're trying to do here in indie, right?
Like it's, we're trying to make intensefilms as real as possible and
(36:20):
we need all the tools we can get.
And that's just a great use of everythingwe got in our tool belt.
[Paul DeNigris] (36:25):
Yeah.
but because the cinematography, theacting, the writing, the music, the sound design
the, you know, the sound of the ofthe knife through skin, the sound of the
blood coming out, you know, all of thatworks together.
The film is the sum of its parts.
The reason I bring up the whole, you know,my sensitivity to how I talk about the
(36:46):
practical effects trades is because thereoften is...there's, I think, way too much of this dialogue
particularly in the general public about,well, CGI is bad, practical is good.
And filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, whoare wonderful and really focused on
(37:07):
getting in a camera, they kind of feedthat narrative of CGI bad, practical good.
And I don't wanna add fuel to that fireand be the guy who is like, no,
CGI is better because the practical is fucked upand we fixed it.
That's not it.
It's about there always needs to be a beautifulmarriage of the two.
(37:28):
that he's not talking about because itdoesn't fit the narrative of how he wants
to portray what he does, which is fine.
Unfortunately, VFX people get the sort ofget the brunt of, oh, there's too much CGI
or too much bad CGI in a movie.
And I always say like, too much CGI or toomuch VFX is a,
(37:49):
that's kind of an illegitimate criticism.
That's like saying,Ryan used too many cuts in the movie.
Jonathan's DP put too many lights up inthe scene.
It's a tool.
It's not a matter of too much.
It's a matter of did we use it right?
[Ryan Lieber (38:05):
I was gonna say, a lot of the greatest effects work, digital
effects work is invisible, right?
You shouldn't see it.
And it should feel real.
And so much of, I know what you did forour film and what I've seen in films that
I admire, that it's an invisible hand inthe film that's still meant to just keep
your audience focused on the story and theemotion.
(38:28):
And all of that stuff supports that.
And, you know, it...
Yeah, the people that say Nolan doesn't,it's just so good you don't see it and you
never will.
And that's what we try to do even at thislevel is to try to make it invisible and
to try to make it as photo real aspossible.
[Paul DeNigris] (38:46):
Right.
You know, I'm on a mission to try andeducate everybody that I talk to when I,
when I see those posts on social media,Oh, there's too much CGI.
No, the CGI didn't support the story orthe CGI took you out of the story.
It's not that there's too much.
It's probably that there was not enoughtime, not enough money.
And it's probably that it distracted from,they were trying to fix something that
(39:09):
they didn't spend time on, like writing agood script, you know, shooting the right
material, et cetera.
So you're not really reacting to thequality or the amount of CGI, you're
reacting to the sum total of the parts.
And the CGI is the thing that sticks outbecause it's been sort of slapped on like
a coat of paint that doesn't belong.
Yeah, because we've all seen movies thatare really good, where the VFX and the CGI
(39:34):
is not very good, but doesn't take us outof the story at all.
And, you know, I think that's when youhave a good marriage is where, you know,
the VFX CGI is complementing the story.
You know, you're at the mercy of the storyat all times.
So it sounds like, you know, coming out ofThe Last Deal,
(39:54):
you've got a new appreciation for kind of practical anddigital working together.
And it sounds like that's something thatyou're gonna explore further in future projects, Jonathan.
What other takeaways came from the VFXexperience or the post experience in
general that may affect the stories you'regonna try and tell in future movies or
kind of how you're gonna tackle thosestories?
(40:16):
Um, well, the immediate thing I thoughtof, uh, and I knew some of this or a lot
of this prior just from past shoots wasthere's a lot of things as a director that
you don't need to fix on set that I canfix in post.
And that's the worst thing to say, like,we'll fix it in post.
But, but, but there's certain, there'scertain things that if you see on set
(40:38):
that, you know, Hey, this will take Xamount of time to fix now.
Meanwhile, I know, okay, I know that's aneasy fix.
We'll fix that in post.
for VFX things, not for...
That term gets thrown away around way toomuch and not to use it the wrong way, but
stuff like that, making me a moreefficient director.
That's probably the best wayto summarize it.
(40:59):
In regards to story and using VFX, youknow, there's the whole aspect of gunshots
if you wanna go down that road where youcan do that in VFX.
I personally really like the blood aspect.
I mean, I've seen movies where, I stilllike squibs, you know, but I've seen
(41:20):
movies where they use too much VFX bloodand you can totally tell, like it's VFX
blood spraying.
But I think mostly it's working in tandem,like the marriage between the two
departments, knowing that you can elevatea project.
Yeah.
Ryan, how about you?
What, in terms of the VFX process onThe Last Deal, might have surprised you
(41:43):
aside from the throat slash thing, because Ithink we've really dissected that one, pun intended.
Maybe going into a future edit, what'ssomething about the VFX process that you
might incorporate into a future project?
Yeah, sure.
So from my perspective, The Last Deal wasactually very light on effects work
(42:06):
compared to some of the horror films I do.
And since The Last Deal, I've done twohorror films, one that's finished and out
and one that's in finishing right now.
And they have heavy effects sequences.
And I often don't know what level of VFXwe're going to have.
(42:27):
It's not within my control.
I have to do the best practical edit I can do withthe plates that I have, with the,
you know, the gags that are done practicallyand whatever.
And I have to have an imagination as towhat I think this can be.
How much time do I need to allow in orderto sell this with effects?
Can I use this shot?
It looks cheesy as it is, but I knoweffects can do this.
(42:50):
So I have to really open up my imaginationand try to envision the shot with a...
with a VizEffect that's not even remotelydesigned yet.
Because unfortunately on the budget tierthat I work on, I don't get to work in
tangent with VFX.
There's not a back and forth.
I'm not working with animatics ortemplates that are being worked.
(43:11):
I have to really either rough it myself orimagine.
And then we have to do that all the waythrough the approval process of directors cut,
producers, because it doesn'tnecessarily go into effects until we're
picture locked.
And...
So that was what was a little different onJonathan's film is we were able to parse
out pieces of the film to you as we werestill working because the post-process
(43:33):
went on about a year, not blaming you,Jonathan.
But when I have three months, well, again,this was a very different experience.
Sounds like he’s blaming you, Jonathan.
Well, again, this was a very different experience.
[ (43:41):
I’m never calling Ryan again.
But generally I have three to four monthsto do my offline and I basically,
I turn over conform prep to a finishing house andthey take it from there.
But I still have to build these sequencesknowing they're gonna go through a VFX world.
So then, you know, I will then keep reelsthat are VFX heavy unlocked after I
(44:06):
delivered them just in case I need toextend the shot another little bit or we
have to pull this shot because they don'thave the budget to do this one.
So it's keeping me flexible in certainsequences because I know they're not 100%
of what they can be yet.
They will be as good as they can be oncethey finish effects, but I don't really
(44:26):
have anything to say or do with thatbecause, you know, I'm strictly doing an
offline and once I ship that I'm done.
So, so what it's taught me is to just beflexible in those sequences, see the
possibilities in what was shot and try touse everything that's in the dailies to
build the sequence out, knowing that wecan fix it in post post, right?
(44:48):
LikeIt still has room to improve even after we
call it lock.
So just staying open and flexible is thebest thing I can say.
I'd love to work in tangent with effectsand build these sequences together, but
not quite at that level yet.
Yeah, that's the holy grail, right?
(45:08):
That's what we want.
We want Jonathan to call both of us upwhile the script is still being polished
and start having these conversations,right?
And bring the cinematographer and thesound designer and the composer and all of
us that are part of the team, bring us inas early as possible so we can start
having these conversations.
(45:29):
So it is that constant passing of thebaton back and forth to get the best result.
[Ryan Liebert] (45:34):
Right.
But I've also seen that can get a littlecarried away sometimes where you can, you
know, you get promised the moon sometimes.
And I know when we did Willy's Wonderland,we were having very, very positive early
responses to the film.
And we had a VFX company come on and said,pretend this is the Avengers, do whatever
you want to do.
And, and you know what ended up happeningthat ended up being a completely
(45:57):
fraudulent company and the whole thingwent under and the and the VFX became this
sugar thrown on top.
And so it's just, you really have to dealwith what you have in front of you at the time.
And, and, you know, and, and as it passeson to the next people in line, you know,
they're going to do what they can to do tomake the film and, you know, you just hope
it helps the film and doesn't hurt it.
(46:19):
I thought of an example of fixing itin post is when you're on set and you're
shooting and your actor gets a performanceand everyone's hugging each other because
it was all amazing.
And then you're watching the playback andyou see the mic wire.
That's an example of like, hey, we don'tneed to shoot that again.
Like I know what it costs in post.
(46:40):
I know what it costs on set if we redo itright here.
and we waste time, but that's an exampleof fix it in post.
Yeah, and it's not just a money cost.
It's also the cost of, are you gonna getas good a performance out of the actor?
Right?
You're gonna end up going, yeah, the firsttake really was the best, right?
So now you've wasted the time to shoot itand you still are gonna use the better
(47:04):
take and ask for it to be painted out.
So you might as well just move on.
It's about having the confidence on set tobe able to go, yeah, we got this, let's move on.
Ryan, how...
So remind me, and it's a while back thatwe worked on this film.
Remind me, were you responsible forturnovers of plates to me on The Last Deal?
Or was there someone else that we, so you,so you did that.
(47:25):
How, how often do you do that versus howoften does that, you know, get, get done
by whoever the is going to do the, uh, theonline or the DI.
Really depends.
I would say Jonathan's film is one of thefew that I have done that for.
I don't typically like to work with rawfootage at all.
(47:45):
So in that case we were using 6 andsometimes 8K R3D files and just very
burdensome videos to put little files towork with.
So no, I took a little extra.
I did a little extra as far asas far as conforming that and prepping all
that stuff and shipping it on a hard driveto you.
(48:08):
Because I knew what kind of film I wasworking on.
I knew we weren't going to an Intropic ora Sugar Studios or someone that's gonna
do, that thing's gonna put in a bid to dothe entire finishing process.
Whereas on some of the other films I'vedone that have, they might be in the
$1 to $5 million budget range, they've gotthat extra $200,000, $300,000 to send it to a finishing house.
(48:31):
So it just becomes more of a conformedchecklist that I go through to make sure
that what they're looking at is the sameas what I'm looking at, that the repos and
stuff that I've done in the edit, thehidden things that I've done, they're all
conforming properly.
And just kind of going through checklistsand then becoming more of a client and
just reviewing the work and making surethat it's kind of what both the director
(48:54):
and I were intending.
But no, I often will send the reels outand offline material to get conformed for
DI and then they'll piece out what theyneed for effects and just reference
against my offline cut.
You know, the funny thing about plates isI'll often get, I feel like they'll shoot
(49:14):
plates all the time in a scene, it's likegetting room tone.
They'll shoot plates of a room and I'll begoing through and I'll organize all my plates.
But I never work in a plate.
I will ship the plates, I can put a stringout of plates together and I can ship them
out separately, but I never reallyincorporate plates unless it's something
very, very specific.
(49:34):
And I feel like sometimes they just,do that stuff on set because that's what
some effects supervisor says you'resupposed to do and it doesn't help me tell
the story in the edit whatsoever.
I know it's a tool that can be used andit's helpful but I just again like I
package those up and send thoseseparately.
So how often are you doing what I wouldcall a slap comp or a temp comp in the timeline?
(49:59):
And related to that, a topic that's comeup a couple of times on the podcast has
been this idea of editing within the framewhere you are able to take, say actor A
nails it on take one, but actor B doesn'twarm up until take five, being able to
take a two shot.
that has two actors with very differentrhythms and being able to put them
(50:22):
together in the same shot so that they'reboth at their best.
How often are you doing something like that?
The split comping, you know, I've studiedit a little bit.
I don't, you know, to me, it's a very, itopens up the editorial decisions tenfold.
You know, there are already a billiondecisions to be made when cutting a performance.
(50:46):
And like, I know like Fincher's team willsplit comp everything.
And I often, you know, I feel like,You do that in ensemble shots, I feel like
more when you're sharing the frame.
And a lot of what I do is more singles andyou know, I'll live in two shots when I
can, but I, I'm not that picky to wherethe nodding and the pacing of the person
(51:13):
who's not speaking needs to be adjusted.
Um, unless it's egregious.
Um, I have done it a little bit.
Um, but not a lot.
It's something that I feel like...
talk about frame fucking can really hamperyour progress in post, you can just get
caught up on the minutiae of these thingssometimes.
(51:35):
And I'm always trying to move along myassemblies relatively quickly and go with
my gut with performances.
And if there's a conversation with adirector feels strong about one
performance and I feel strongly aboutanother performance, I can find a way to
find a nice healthy balance byjust rearranging the sequence a little bit
or cutting to off-camera dialogue andreplacing that line.
(52:00):
So I know that tool is at my disposal andI can use it if I have to, but to me, it
seems a bit overkill.
And then to your first question, I willrough in effects.
I did a film where I have a plate shot ofa creature yelling and their mouth is
supposed to open and a hand is supposed tocome out.
(52:23):
and grab someone's face, right?
And it's supposed to be, but I need tosell that in my rough edit.
So I will do what I call the poor man'sversion of it.
And I'll just mat out the hand poorly andI'll size it and place it.
And I'll always put text on the bottom,you know, FPO or VFX like,
but I do the best I can to sell the mostimportant aspect of what is trying to be conveyed.
(52:49):
And so that we know that, okay, this willwork..
when we get there, when we finally havethe resources and ability to do it right.
And I've seen the finished product versuswhat I did and they're often like, the
idea is there, the idea is there, theexecution is far, far better.
So I'm fairly weak when it comes tocomping and effects work.
(53:11):
I just don't have the patience for it.
Pixels and moving one frame at a time, ittakes a special level of patience.
And I like to deal with frenetic pacingand 24 frames a second.
So I do it when I have to and when I needto sell an idea.
(53:34):
And then I trust that it'll get finishedthe right way.
[Paul DeNig (53:38):
Yeah, that's great.
I mean, I really appreciate filmmakers whocan turn over temp comps from the editor
because a lot of times, yeah, you and thedirector may have had a lot of
conversations about what's supposed tohappen there.
And then I'm brought in post and this is,okay, a hand has to come out of his mouth.
Well, do we have timing, all of this sortof stuff?
(54:00):
How does it cut in with the context aroundit?
And you've already sort of mapped that outso now I can just...
I can just follow your map.
it's still an editorial decision about howthat hand moves.
I need to make a select of that hand'smovement and timing and time it with my...
so it's still a very deliberate editorialselection.
So I will just, I will put that up, I willbuild my layers up.
(54:24):
And when I turn over, I'll put thoseaffected layers on its own layer.
And if y'all need to slip it to make itwork for your needs by all means, and
we'll go back and forth and make sure thatI feel that the timing feels good still.
But yeah, I make sure that the editorialaspect of it is where I need it to be.
You know, it just might not look seamlessor even remotely seamless.
(54:46):
Doesn't need to. On behalf of every VFXartist you ever work with from here in perpetuity,
Thank you.
[Ryan Liebert] (54:52):
You're welcome.
Yeah, it's a little over and beyond thecall of duty right there.
[Paul DeNi (54:57):
No.. it's fantastic.
And that's, again, one of the reasons I dothe podcast is because I think all
filmmakers, and by filmmakers, I mean notjust directors, but everybody, we're all
filmmakers, right?
Whether you're a producer, you're aneditor, you're a DP, you're a sound
person, you're a filmmaker, you're helpingtell the story.
You need to understand a little bit abouteverything.
(55:17):
Doesn't mean you need to be an expert, butyou need to be able to have the conversation.
You need to be able to provide what theother departments need to do their job.
And that's my soapbox.
I'm gonna ask each of you to kind of geton your soapbox a little bit.
What is one piece of advice you would giveto a new filmmaker, maybe not even
necessarily a new filmmaker, but afilmmaker who's new to visual effects,
(55:40):
who's doing a film where VFX are going tobe needed, and they don't know where to
start, or they just started coming to youfor advice.
What's a piece of advice you would givethem?
Well, you know, I was thinking about itwhile you were asking the question.
And the first thing I would say is,is don't get overwhelmed by it.
There's, you know, when you're editing afilm or narrative of any kind, there's
(56:01):
certain scenes that are very easy to edit.
The decisions are clear and, you know, youdon't have to worry about all these extra things.
And then there's scenes in the film thatkeep you up at night that you really,
you don't know the potential of it because...
it's going to be enhanced with effects.
So, so to not get overwhelmed by theunknowns that you're facing when you're
(56:24):
building that sequence and then to have animagination and try to visualize what you
want it to be while you're cutting it, youmight not be able to replicate that, but
really try to have an imagination with itand try to allow yourself the time in the
shot to, to pay off what you're hopingwill be accomplished with effects.
(56:47):
Yeah, and to his point, definitely have avision for what it is that you want.
Because I think sometimes what can happen,not just with VFX, but with DPs and
editors, is if you're new to this, evennot new, you could end up like being very
passive and going with the direction thatthey're choosing, not the direction that
(57:08):
you want.
And then that puts both you in a cornerwhere now you deliver this thing, and then
the director's like, hey, that's notreally what I want.
But I just did all this work.
So I think, really think about like, whatis, know your vision, what it is that you want
How can you communicate that, but thencollaborate with your VFX guy or with your
(57:28):
editor to make the product that you want.
So this way there's the least amount ofbackwards.
And you're gonna occasionally havebackwards, but if you're consistently
going backwards, you're just gonnafrustrate everybody.
Have a vision, stick to it, but know youneed to compromise.
Great advice, both of you, great, greatadvice.
(57:50):
Where can people find out more about whatyou're up to and where can people watch
The Last Deal?
So The Last Deal is here in the States.
You can watch it on Starz and Encore.
It's free on demand there, or you can goto Amazon, or your favorite platform,
Apple, Vudu, Google.
We also have a version in Espanol.
(58:13):
So it's a beautiful dub.
It's an amazing dub.
I sounded like Trump there.
It's a beautiful dub, but it's a greatdub.
I really liked it.
And then it's also in Ireland and the UK.
Both of those are on demand, so go to yourfavorite platform there.
(58:35):
It's also in Korea.
So I don't know about North Korea, but Iknow it's in South Korea.
So you can watch it in all those places.
And then if you wanna learn more, I highlyencourage people going to our Instagram,
@theLastDealmovie.
We tend to update that a lot.
(58:55):
We've been very fortunate.
We...
We've been on a lot of podcasts and we'vehad a lot of reviews and fortunately they
all been favorable.
Um, so yeah, please check it out.
Ryan, how about you?
Where can people find out more about whatyou're up to and keep track of upcoming projects?
I mean IMDB is the best spot but I have awebsite ryanliebert.com where I just I will
(59:19):
update you know the films that I've thatare that are out.
I have three films in finishing right now.
Obviously it's a little slow right now andwe're not quite sure how long it's going
to last but you know I've got two filmscoming out in ‘24 one slated for ’25.
(59:41):
So keep a lookout for a movie called Oak,a movie called Don Q, and then a movie
called Pig Hill.
Well, thanks so much for being part of theshow, guys.
It's been a really great conversation.
Great catching up with both of you.
And I'm sure that the audience willbenefit from your wisdom and your
(01:00:02):
experience.
So thanks so much for being here.
[Jonathan Sale (01:00:05):
Thank you, Paul.
[Ryan Liebert] (01:00:05):
Thanks.
Appreciate it, Paul.
Thank you.
And to my audience, if you're watchingthis on YouTube, like, subscribe and a
comment will go a long way towards helpingus reach our audience.
And if there's something that you want tosee on future shows, please be sure to
comment and let me know if you havequestions for these guys, please post the
comments and I will convey those questionsto them.
(01:00:27):
And if you're listening on iTunes orSpotify or one of the million podcast
aggregators out there.
Something like a star rating, a review,and a follow would also be very, very helpful.
And if you have an indie filmmaker in yourlife who needs to hear this stuff, please
send them the podcast.
On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X-Ray andon behalf of the crew that puts together
(01:00:49):
the VFX for Indies show, I'm Paul DeNigris, and I say thanks.
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