Beyond the Vows Part 2

Facing unseen challenges in a relationship can feel like navigating a ship through a foggy night, unsure of what's ahead. Join us as we chart the waters of spiritual blindness in marriage, where hidden forces threaten the bond between partners. Together, we discuss the power of vigilance and prayer in guarding our unions and share personal stories that shine a light on the struggles we face internally—those battles that test both our human insecurities and our higher aspirations.

Embarking on the journey of financial unity as a couple is like climbing a mountain—you need the right tools and a shared vision to reach the summit. In this discussion, we bear all about transforming from impulsive spenders to prudent savers, and the rocky path we navigated to get there. We examine how life lessons and mentors, like the wisdom from Dave Ramsey, have become our map to fiscal responsibility. It's an honest look at the importance of budgeting, investing, and the profound impact financial transparency has had on solidifying our partnership and future.

Marriage is more than a societal convention; it's a canvas for growth, an adventure in shared commitment, and sometimes, a complex equation involving blended families and step-parenting. We explore the profound purposes of these sacred bonds, question the status quo, and celebrate the resilience of love when faced with life's trials. Through our heart-to-heart, we touch upon the sobering lessons from my first marriage, the role of therapy and self-reflection in fostering healthy relationships, and the undeniable significance of communication in feeling truly seen and heard by our partners. Join us for a candid conversation that's as much about the resilience of the human spirit as it is about the love that binds us.

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Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!

Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
Logo by Kaylin Talley

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
last week on Virago 24-7.
How does spiritual blindnessplay a part in marriage problems
and divorce?
What is spiritual blindness,and can a Christian become
spiritually blind?
So what is that it's about?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
spiritual warfare.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hi, I am your host, leigh Lyanette Talley, and you
are listening to Virago 24-7.
Virago is Latin for femalewarrior and 24-7 is for all day,
every day.
Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcastthat brings diverse women
together to talk about life andour experiences in this world.
We share our views on self-love, mental health, marriage,

(00:41):
children, friendships and reallyanything that needs to be
talked about.
Here you will find everydaygrowth, everyday healing with
everyday warriors.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Spiritual blindness is thinking that there is no
warfare going on spiritually.
You're thinking that what'shappening with you is about that
person and you're almostthinking that the devil has no

(01:22):
play in this whole process, nopart in this whole process.
So there's a spiritual battlegoing on all the time and one of
the main things the devil feelsthreatened about is a godly
marriage.
He doesn't want that.
So anything he can do and sayand whisper to that your spouse

(01:50):
to make sure that that marriagedoesn't work or grow, he's going
to do.
And if you don't see that,you're blind to the fact that
spiritual warfare is happeningand it is attacking and fighting
your marriage daily.
And if you're not intentionalor prayerful about what you're

(02:15):
doing, like Robert mentioned, hesaid when he goes to bed at
night the thing that he startsto do is pray that the Holy
Spirit or God is protecting yourthoughts at night, because
that's the, he feels, one of themain ways and when the devil

(02:35):
will start attacking you.
In your sleep In your sleep.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
I believe it.
What my insecurity is?
You stepping out on themarriage right, and what do I
dream about at night?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
That I've cheated on you.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
Oh my gosh, and I mentioned it to people, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Mad at me.
I'm like like I actuallycheated on you.
I say which, for the recordpeople I have not, but OK good,
that's good to know Every night,not every night.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Not every night, every few months.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
The next night, the next morning, you're like the
next day.
I can't believe you did that tome.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
I'm, like you, cheated on me and I'm like what.
And you're, and in every singledream you're so nonchalant, like
, yeah, I'm doing it, I love you, I take care of you.
So like you're so nonchalantand so, matter of fact, you're
not apologetic at all, and soit's just like what the hell,

(03:36):
felipe, what the hell?
And it is an insecurity of mine, and I used to think, oh my
gosh, it's a sign.
It's a sign and my sleep is amessage.
I got to be on high alert.
It's the devil.
And for the longest time I saythat's a sign that I got to pay
attention.
But then I realize it's mysubconscious Just letting me

(03:59):
know that I'm insecure Specialblindness, that's what.
I'm saying but you had one, andthat was your first one when I
cheated on you.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
I've had a couple oh, that's, that's, and I've never
had that dream and that wasrecent too.
I think it was like last year.
It was the first time I ever,ever, ever, ever had a dream
that you cheated on me.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, oh, the couple, the couple that you have, it's
more.
You cheated on me in yourdreams Because you said you've
had a couple.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
No, no, no, I've had a couple since then.
Oh, since then that you'vecheated on me.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
Oh, you didn't tell me.
I thought it was that one time.

Speaker 2 (04:36):
No.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
I've had a couple of those.
It's like two or three.
I have told you.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
The tables have turned everybody.
I have told you.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
So yeah, and I've never had that dream in the 18
years of our marriage, untillast year.
Well, damn, but again that'sthe devil.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
What's in your subconscious, Felipe.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Just under my subconscious.
Oh, it's the devil, it's thedevil.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
So that's what spiritual blindness is.
It's just not understanding.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Or not aware, and you don't see that there is
spiritual battle happening orthere's spiritual warfare
happening in life and you'rethinking oh, I can do this alone
, it's just me.
Or I'm making these decisions,people, you know things are
whispering in your ear, thingsthat you hear.
Is this my decision, is thisthe devil's decision?
And not realizing that that's athing, you're blind to the fact

(05:22):
that this is happening.
And Christians can definitelybe spiritually blind, because
Christians, I mean that's kindof mystical.
Yeah, you know, that's justkind of this voodoo that there's
spiritual warfare, you know.
But I mean, if you believe inmiracles, you've got to believe
in spiritual warfare.
If you believe in angels,there's things that happen that

(05:46):
you can't see.
No, I mean, you believe inoxygen.
You breathe it every day.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
I mean, I know we're talking about marriage, but just
in general, as a human beingthat's lately, in the past few
years, when I've grown into myfaith and stuff.
That's where I get emotional isbecause I know there's this
battle within.
I know what my humanness wantsto do and I know what the right

(06:10):
thing to do is, and when I getupset or sad, it's this conflict
of my human side wants to justblow shit up.
But, then my spiritual side islike OK, let's be kind.
And then I get very pissedbecause I was like that's all I
want to do.
I don't want to be the biggerperson, and so I'm like fighting

(06:31):
with myself.
So I don't think that ever goesaway, even when you are aware.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
No.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
And so I've learned to go through.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Because if you think that it's not, you're not aware
of it.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Imagine when you're not aware.
Yeah, I become more aware ofwhy I'm feeling.
Ok, why do I feel this way?
It's because I'm conflicted of.
I want to be this way, say this, say it like this, but I know
that's not the right way ofdoing it, so all right.
So we talked aboutcommunication being one of the
biggest conflicts in themarriage.

(07:02):
And then we also hear money andfinances.
We hear that's huge, right upthere of where there's conflict.
How does a couple get on thesame page?

Speaker 2 (07:12):
This is so funny.
This is the one time I'mactually going to bring up a
name and a question and a thingwith the men's group, because
the Virago people know him.
Yeah.
So McQuaidus, AKA Milky I'm notgoing to call the grown man
Milky brought up the fact thathe said man, I don't want to

(07:33):
have to share my finances withsomeone Because you don't want
everyone, they're mine.
And he asked the question inmen's group what is that bad?
And I was like, yes, yes,that's about trust, that's being

(07:54):
selfish and if you have theright person, you're okay with
that.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
You know, because that's what we do.
So he wants to keep it separate.
Well, he hasn't.
I mean he's been single, I meanfor 30-something years.
So his thing is like I can'teven imagine letting someone
know how to make.
Well, yeah, but you're notthere yet Sharing the money yeah
.
He hasn't gotten you to thatpoint.
And that person was like how is?

Speaker 1 (08:21):
that with you?
Obviously, because when I was25 years old I wasn't bringing
the big money yet the big box.
So you were the provider, youwere the one.
That was very established.
How the hell did you come intothis marriage with me and be

(08:46):
secure in that?
Or were you even secure?
You were just acting like youwere.
What was the process for you?

Speaker 2 (08:53):
That's why I say and I said this to McQuaidish when
he came over the other nightwhen he told me he had got
accepted to dental school, whichis amazing, we're so happy for
him.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
So happy Congratulations to him.
There you go.
The only reason we're soexcited is because it's been a
journey for him to get acceptedto dental school.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
That's amazing, so we're excited.
Well, he has to move away,which is sad, but we're going to
keep in contact.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
He's a part of us for life 100%.
So, um, I was going to say no,I was trying to come out Talking
about how and the hell did youtrust me to come in and you were
okay with that, or?

Speaker 2 (09:35):
was it really strategic about it?
So I got to McQuaidish is thething with that.
You were my soulmate.
I knew you were my soulmate.
I had no qualms about that.
You're the one.
You're the person for me.

(09:55):
You were my person.
You were my rider.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
You're like I don't want to die, Okay, but but I'll
ride.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
You're right If it's a nice smooth ride and I'll tell
you how to go in that ride,like where to turn.

Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, so if you're, you have both hands on the side.
Well, so for me I had noproblem with that, it didn't
matter.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
Yeah, I made most of the money, but you made all the
money, philip.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
I had like a like pocket change but it was ours
and I walked in with thatperception and I was okay with
that.
I've always been okay with that.
But I think if you have theright person, you are going to
be okay with that, no matterwhat happens, no matter what
what they bring into it, it hasto be.

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Did you ever feel impasse relationships?
Because you know, obviously you, you, you have a more like
experience.
Thank you.
I like to think you didn't haveany experience before me.
However, you had moreexperience, more, more
relationships.
Did you ever have anyone thatyou felt uncomfortable when it

(11:09):
came to money?
Money.
And I know marriage isdifferent than just having a
girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
but no, I didn't trust anybody else.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
With money, but my money, uh-huh, no one.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
How was it in your first marriage when?

Speaker 2 (11:24):
it came to money.
That's a good question.
Um, I don't think that was.
That was the one thing thatwasn't our problem.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
I know, but did you guys combine things, or was
everything very separate andthat's why it worked, or how did
you guys do that?

Speaker 2 (11:37):
It's the same way we do it.
We combine big things, but weboth had our own personal.

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well, I mean, she's a baller, you you.
You guys were beginning like toball, you guys.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, she was a specialist and yeah, so that was
an issue.
Yeah, she made more than meactually, so, but that wasn't
the issue.
But with any, yeah, everybodyelse, no, I never trusted
anybody with my money.
I was very, very, very selfishwhen it came to that.
So, yeah, so I didn't have anyissue walking into our

(12:12):
relationship and trusting that.
But, yeah, that's a hugeproblem.
Well, that's the other thing.
People don't talk aboutfinances.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
People don't talk about how they handle their
money, because some people arespenders yeah.
Some people are savers.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
I'm a spender by nature.
Yes, hi, I'm Lyanette Talley,I'm a spender, but but I think
I'm a kind of a recovering.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
You are a recovering spender.
You are, and because you handleour budget now I do, and we
wouldn't be in Tybee Islandright now.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Oh, don't say that no .

Speaker 2 (12:47):
If you were still a spender, oh stop.
But it's true though.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
I think.
I think no, don't give me allthe accolades it was a group
effort.
However, I never was taught anyof that.
Most of us are never taughtabout money but I do remember in
the very beginning, you werevery adamant about me being
transparent about my financesand, yes, what I made back then

(13:12):
definitely wasn't the same asyou and my debt wasn't maybe as
big, but for me it was big.
So I literally had to likebring it out on the table.
We sat at the dining room table.
You're very transparent Ibrought everything that I owed
like student loans.
I think I only had like one ortwo credit cards, but they
weren't a lot, but for me theywere.

(13:34):
But now that I think, yeah,versus my income, but I remember
you being very just like justlaid out on the table.
Don't be embarrassed, we'regoing to figure this out
together.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Take care of all your debt and then we worked on
yours.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
I feel like, when it comes to money, we've been on
the same page 100%.
But we've had to be verytransparent and I remember being
highly embarrassed and thenwhen you saw, you're like I
don't know if you said it, but Icould tell you like, okay, this
is not so bad, yeah, not so badfor you because you make money,
but for me it's like this is abig deal.

(14:11):
Yeah, you're like you're kind oflike, okay, that's not so bad,
cause it wasn't bad in the grandscheme of things, but this is
the cool thing about it.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
It wasn't like I said all right, this is your debt,
let me pay this off.
No, we strategically said allright, based on what you're
making, let's start knocking outthese different things.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
And we didn't just I didn't just write a check and
cleared your debt.
It was more of like hey, let'sjust start paying it down.

Speaker 1 (14:40):
That would have been nice.
That would have been real nice.
He made me pay off my debt andthen I could be a stay at home.
I don't remember how ithappened.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
That was the process.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, it's like you will pay off.
You will work at a crappy joband be miserable, pay off your
debt and then you can stay home.
No, it wasn't that way but itwas good.
Yes, yes, you're very smartabout that.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yes, yeah, yes, and again.
You know, we were never taughtthat.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
No.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
We didn't get that in school.
I didn't get that from myparents.
I mean, mama was a spendard,daddy was a, he was cheap and
his money said frugal, and Inever learned that.
I mean, I guess I got it fromdifferent people.
No, I definitely learned a lotagain.
I have to go back to this againand I don't want to make my

(15:33):
other siblings feel funny aboutit.
I mean, carolyn really taughtme a lot when it came to money.
And and then my roommate in theNavy, jeff Jeff Stack, his name
he taught me a lot when it cameto stocks and mutual funds and

(15:55):
things I never learned, ever,ever, ever, ever.
And that's something Idefinitely, definitely want to
pass down to our kids when itcomes to money and finances.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
And together, while we've been married, we've taken
courses, we've done the day.
Ramsey, yes, we didn't followit to a T, we didn't.
However, he he laid thegroundwork of, like you know,
paying off debt and staying outof debt and paying things in
cash.
And it's been hard and it waslonger than you know.

(16:28):
We didn't attack everythinglike head on, but it's worked.
For us it worked really wellfor us.
It's also been very transparentand even though I'm a spender by
nature, I feel like it was aresponsibility for me that one
you're like here, you handle thefinances and you make sure
things get paid and you know howmuch I make.

(16:48):
And I never wanted to be thatwoman or wife that was in the
dark, that had no clue becauseof shit hits the fan whether
it's divorce or illness orpassing away it's all very
realistic things.
I never wanted it to be.
I never wanted to be a personthat was in the dark like shit.
I don't know passwords, I don'tknow where anything is, I don't

(17:09):
know how much he makes.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah.
I know nothing, and this is thething you got now and I never
wanted that.
And someone was asking me thisthe other day and I was like you
know what.
I don't know what I pay for.
I don't even know how much Imake.
You know what I make.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
I'll let you know.
Yeah, we'll go over it togetherlater.
I have no clue what I make.
You make a good living from itno.
That's why we were able to buythis condo Right, but I'm so
lazy when it comes to that.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Now I think I'm at the other extreme, you are.
I have no clue.
I'm the kept man.
No, I have no clue.
What's going on?
We got into it.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
We got into it the other day because we bought this
condo, right, and we're talkingabout vacations and you know,
we like to travel, people, welike to travel.
And so this year we're like,okay, we're going to be frugal.
And you're like, well, let's gohere and let's go there.
I'm like, do you not understand?
You just literally told me wecan't go anywhere, but you want
to do these things.
Do you know how much that costsfill up?
And you're like, no, why wouldI know this?

(18:14):
I'm like, and then I'm like,well, you should know this.
Why am I the only one thatunderstands that this is not
going to be realistic?
And so, like, we really gotinto it and then we had a
similar.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
And we were at a restaurant, we were out and
about, we had a wine bar and Isaid nice wine bar.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
You better sit down.
The economic is seen.
I said you're like I'm donewith this.
I said, listen, you're likeyou're shooting down my ideas.
I'm not trying to fill up, I'mnot trying to shoot your, your
ideas down.
However you're come, you'recontradicting yourself.
You're saying that you want tosave money, but yet you're
saying you want to go to thisplace and this place and this
place and that's not reallysaving money.

(18:53):
That's really spending moremoney and I think you think it's
cheap in your mind, but itreally is not, because I know
that how much we've paid forthese places.
And you're like.
Why would I know that?
I'm like but why do I?
So it was this whole thing.
So even what that was like threemonths ago, that was very
recent, where I appreciate thatyou have let me drive the train

(19:15):
because it may, it makes me feelconfident and I feel and going
back to what I was going to saybefore I felt like it was a
responsibility to be moreresponsible of that.
And we still spend and I stilllike to buy more things because
everyone jokes with me where I'mlike, yeah, Valentine's Day and
I don't care about gifts.
I don't care about giftsbecause I buy my stuff when I

(19:37):
want to buy them or you buy themfor me, and so I don't need
these special quote unquoteholidays for these things to
come.
And it's not like a braggingthing, it's just that that's
what we do, but we do it withinreason and responsible and I
take it's a huge weight for meto spend within reason and I

(20:01):
never wanted to abuse that,because I know that there are
some men out there that make alot of money and want to hold
control of that.
And our, you know, because itcomes, I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
So I do appreciate that.
I do appreciate that, yeah, andI think that's what I'm saying,
because his wife was.
He made her be very frugal inspending and didn't realize that
they were rich.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Because the whole time he was had her thinking
they were poor and he really was.
And a lot of guys are that wayand I agree with that.
A lot of guys are more like hey, I paid the bills, I take care
of this, I make most of themoney, I'll give you a little
bit to do whatever you want withit.
And you have no clue.
And you hear that all the timewhen the guy passes away and the

(20:49):
wife is like I don't know, noidea what's going on, I don't
know what debt we have, I don'tknow I'm, you know.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
So the next question is about being content.
This is huge, okay, and I thinkin some couples, one or both
spouses are not content.
What do you think the causes ofthis discontentment is like in
marriages?
What is it?

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Quality time.
You think so?
Quality time, quality time,quality time.

Speaker 1 (21:19):
No matter what your love language is, but if it's
just give me, shower me withgifts.
I think most women deep downand men want quality time.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yes, I agree with that, but I think if you don't
spend the time with your spouseand that can mean so many
different things it could bevacations, it could be showering
them with gifts, going on aweekend that's not my love

(21:52):
language, by the way, spendingall this stuff for them and
that's not your love language.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
I just like quality time for sure, which I love the
fact that that's not your, but Ido like a good gift every now
and then.
That's true, my purr-boring,that you bought me a few hours
ago.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yes, yes, so I think that is you're not content.
Is that what it was?
Not content?

Speaker 1 (22:12):
Not content, yeah, because what are the causes of
that?

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Your needs are not being met.
That's why.
Yeah.
Your needs are not being met,so you're not content with.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
I think a lot of the time people get married and in
the beginning they feel like,okay, this person is adequate
enough to marry, you know, andthey get married because maybe
it's the season in their lifewhere they feel like they have
to.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
And they check the boxes and they don't really like
.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
That's the main For me.
When it comes to marriage, yeah, there's a lot of shit that
comes up, but in the end, do youlike that person?
Are you guys growing in thesame trajectory?
You and I were joking becausewe were driving and our taste
buds have evolved even in thesame way.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
True.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Where.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
We select the sweetest coffee.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Or the sweetest drinks.
And now it's evolved into itneeds to be a little bit
stronger and needs to be alittle Even coffee, more
espresso.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
And a wine palette is a must.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
And that's just kind of like a very superficial thing
, but are you guys growingtogether?
Do you still like each other?
And I really, truly feel, if wetook a poll of most people, did
they really like that person?

(23:45):
Yeah, they're okay.
I think people just wanted toget married, to get married, and
they're not really vetting thisperson.
It's just like this is the nextstep.
We've been together, we've gotto go.
I don't want to waste my timewith this person.
We've been together for threeyears, so the next logical thing
is to move forward withmarriage and they're not really

(24:07):
thinking about that.
This is really not my person.
I really feel like if people,when they think back, they know
that that was not my person,that I went through it anyways.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
You have a lot of people that, think that way.
All right, and you also havethe other percentage to lean on
that and I think that's probablythe majority.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
They get divorced.
I think it is.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yes, that's the majority that get divorced, but
you also have the otherpercentage that they did like
that person.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Okay, and what?

Speaker 2 (24:37):
happened At the beginning.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
But they didn't put in the time, they didn't put in
the work to get the results andthey weren't intentional about
dating each other.
Okay, let's say that and thenthey didn't like each other
anymore.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
It started off positive in a positive way, and
that was the reason why theymarried that person.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
That is that other percentage.
But you can grow out of likewith people, just like you can
grow out of love with someone.
And if you don't like put intime with them, what's the-?
You have friends that you like,but you don't like spend time
with them.
You're not intentional withthem and you know what.

(25:20):
They're not your friendsanymore.
Yeah, and it's just that simple.
Some people obviously there'sevents that happen over time
that maybe divide or break up afriendship, but sometimes it's
like you just grow away from me.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
So I've been listening to.
So I listened to a morning showhere in Atlanta.
It's syndicated, so it's notjust Atlanta anymore the Burt
Show, the Burt Show.
And also I listened to podcasts.
And so the question that theykeep asking is what is the point
of getting married?
Like back in the day there wasa reason for it.

(25:55):
Like women had to get married.
They didn't have the careers oftheir own, they would go to
college not really to get aneducation, but to find a husband
.
It was strategic.
Nowadays, what is the purposeof getting married for a man and
for a woman?
What is the purpose?

Speaker 2 (26:13):
That's a good question for me and I have to
say I'm very traditional For me.
I think you can't go on withlife by yourself and I think
you're better together thanbetter separate.

(26:35):
And yeah, you can be togetherwith someone, not be married
with them, but you can easily,easily, easily walk away from
that.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
If we were never married, if we never made a vow
to each other in front of people18 years ago, coming up on 19
years ago in September, we wouldnot be together right now,
Cause it was so easily.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Why are you trying to get rid of me so many years ago
?
Cause that would have been soeasy.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Just to be like I'm out To leave, yeah, which is one
of the things that Robertbrought up in the men's group
was if everything in yourmarriage financially is separate
, that's easier to split, thenit's easier to split because you
have no conflict financially togo.

(27:29):
Yeah, if they all have a jointaccount and everything has
always been separate.
That's just that, that easy wayto just say you know what I'm
done, I'm out of here.
Yeah, and if you never marriedthat person and you all are
together you've been togetherfor years, never truly got

(27:49):
married, any problem that comesup, you can just walk away and
be done.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
There's a lot of people out there that can say
that have been together for along time Without the marriage.
True, that would argue that.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, but that's such a small percentage.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
That's rare.
You think it's rare.
That's such a small percentage.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
It's an exception to everything.
Yeah, it's an exception toevery room Areas.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
So you think it's a smaller percentage than this?
I?

Speaker 2 (28:17):
think it's a very small percentage, but I think
that's not how God made us to beseparate, to be individuals to
a point in which we don't needsomeone else.
You can't, someone doesn't makeyou happy, but the right person

(28:37):
, I feel, makes you better, andI feel like my life is so much
better in having you in it as ahusband and wife than we just

(29:00):
roommates and we have some kidstogether.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
Yeah, that would be really weird for me specifically
To have kids and not be married.
It's just, I mean, I've beenthere, it was weird, I've
already been there, done thatand it was not fine.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
You experienced that side.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, it's not good.
It's not good at all.
Actually, it doesn't feel rightin your spirit and I don't give
a shiza or shit what peoplethink that.
Oh no, it works.
You're in denial.
I think a lot of people are indenial if they think, oh, that
works for you.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Quick question for you.
Yes.
This came up in my mind rightnow yeah, how would you feel if
I had kids?

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Prior to us.
Well, I think we've talkedabout that.
It would have been hard.
I think it would have been hard.
I've never been a stepmom, so Ifeel this is what I feel
because I love you so much, liketruly love you.

(30:04):
I would love that child andaccept them as one of mine.
I feel that in my heart.
I think when I was younger I'dbe like, oh yeah, no way, that
would be too hard.
I don't know, because I haven'tbeen a stepchild and I've seen
a blended family and everyonedoes the best that they can with

(30:26):
what is given to them or whatthey've chosen for themselves.
But I just adore you and I justthink that you would have such
a cool little kid even if itwasn't for me.
That I think now, as a 44 yearold woman and we've been married
for 18 years it would be.
we would bring it all together,I think in my 20s.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
At this point.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
yeah, yeah, my 20s.
You should have asked me thisquestion in my 20s.
Yeah, it would have been.
I think at that time we didtalk about stuff like that.
We did.
And I said, you are a betterperson to be the stepdad than me
, right?
Because I'm very raw and it'sso raw for me and maybe because

(31:10):
of my experience of not alwaysfeeling accepted, whether it's
true or not.
Everybody out there, everyonehas their version of the story.
For me, I didn't always feel100% accepted by my step-parent
Not truly.
Appearances are different thanwhat is happening inside a home

(31:31):
and how that person is makingyou feel, and that's another
story for another time.
But maybe from that experienceI probably would have been more
hyper aware if you had a childRight and been more on this path
of like I gotta make this work.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Because it didn't work for me.
Yeah Right, I was just curiousabout it?

Speaker 1 (31:53):
I don't know.
I know we talked about it inthe question.
It would have been hard.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
But I was just curious when you were bringing
it up.
Do you know how that would haveplayed itself out?
It would have been hard.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
I'm not gonna lie Right, I don't wanna be like it
would have been easy peasy.
I don't think it would have.
Okay, I think it would be propson marrying me with a child.
I give you, I give you bigprops for that Cause.
That's hard.
I think it's harder than mostpeople want to admit.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, that's true and I think you asked that question
in our men's group.
But in our men's panel.

Speaker 1 (32:26):
I think it's harder than people would want to admit
to it.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
Cause everyone wants to be like.
You have to be real.
I'm the best.
You have to be trans, I'm thebest.
It's not an easy situation,yeah, but it yeah.
I think for me it was easierwhen Kalen's father, to be truly
honest, was nonexistent.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Before that it was a lot harder.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
Well, he was always nonexistent.
Well.
I mean he was nonexistent, Imean he really wasn't.
Even when he was there, hewasn't there.
Okay, he was a cool uncle.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
But if he was someone that was, I don't know, I don't
know.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
I do admire.
I know there's families outthere that really blend.
Well, yes, but just theexception.
But I think maybe like how, howwe talk about our marriage,
like in quote unquote, easy forsome people.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
They have worked through some things.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
There's some things that they had to work through,
but they were mature enough towork through it, and so now it
looks like oh, wow, I can neverdo.
But I think, I think there'ssome people that have that
secret sauce for blendingfamilies for sure 100%, yeah,
100%.
All right.
Okay, let's talk about sex,baby.

(33:44):
Let's talk about you and me,all right.
This is one of the questions onthis little agenda here Sex Is
it often a problem in marriages,and why?
What is the solution?
Communication Okay whatever, Igo back to communication.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Because you do want to know what pleases your spouse
and you need to be verytransparent of what that is.
And yeah, I mean that's a hugething when it comes to any
relationship.
Is sex?
How good is it?
Cause if it's good, it makes itbetter, the relationship better

(34:25):
to some degree.
And you know, obviously somepeople would just be booty calls
and you know booty calls thatare awesome.
And in your marriage.
No, I'm talking aboutrelationships.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Oh, just in general In relationships oh.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
I got you In relationships, but when it's
awesome in a marriage, mm-hmm,oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
I don't know, phillip .
You tell me, since you've had alot of booty calls, is there a
difference?

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Damn.
No, you didn't just do that,hey, so there's a huge
difference for a guy, okay,there's a difference Is?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
there, Cause we look at women, look at guys and I'm
like mm, sex is just sex for youguys.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
You guys.
You know why, though, you guys,when we were broke down my
theory Okay, break it down.
No sex, yeah For a guy and agirl, uh-huh.
Very few women and you've heardme say this before can just say
that sex is a booty call.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Very few women.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Oh, like a woman can't say, oh, he's my booty
call, there's some kind ofattachment.
I got you.
Oh, it's an attachment, yeah,yeah, yeah, there's some kind of
attachment.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
It's not like a guy doesn't have an attachment.
But if you have to say, hey,which person's going to be more
attached when they have sex?
It's going to be a woman.
But if you really, really,really break it down and being
very transparent when you havesex with someone, right, yeah,

(35:52):
the woman is the most vulnerableperson in that process.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Yeah, so why are you guys abuse that shit?
That's what.
That's my question, phillip,yeah, cause we all know that.
Yeah, we all do that.
Cause, that's not what we'rethinking about Cause you're
selfish, but we're not thinkingabout that.
You're being selfish causeyou've got your needs.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
You're just thinking about the moment, yeah, but now
you may be very unselfish inthat process, but it's about
just the moment and what'shappening at that time.
You're not even thinking aboutthe repercussions, what's
attached to it, the emotionsinvolved, because most men,

(36:32):
unless you're with like thatperson, like you and I, are it
doesn't matter who you at.
Mm-hmm.
It really doesn't.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Damn Daniel.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
But that's messed up, but that's being real.
Mm-hmm.
So sex is so important in amarriage and that you need to
communicate in a marriage what'sbest for you, what works for
you, and that's an unresolvedconflict.
Mm-hmm.
If y'all don't discuss thatbecause you can't have, I don't

(37:13):
feel you can have a marriagewithout sex.
No.
I mean, you can have it.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
But it's not fun, right?
It's a shitty marriage and itneeds to be good.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
It needs to be good sex.
So how can you make a good sex?
By having that discussion, youknow, by having that
conversation and being open andtransparent and intentional.
So, yeah, that's very important.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah, yeah blows my mind when people are like, yeah,
we've had sex in two times in ayear.
I'm like what?
Like how did that happen?
That sounds crazy.
I don't know, I don't get it.
I'm glad we don't have thatMoving on, Moving on.

(38:00):
Okay, you guys talked aboutmarried singles.
Did you guys talk about that?

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Married singles.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Like you're married but you're single.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Like.
What are the warning signs thata couple may be in danger of
becoming quote unquote marriedsingles?
Like you're married but you'reacting single.
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 (38:22):
It goes back to some of the things we already talked
about, which we'll go throughthis really quickly.
One you're very selfish,because when you're single
you're selfish, you only thinkabout yourself.
So when you're married, singleyou're just like, hey, you do
you, I do me, we good, we havethis marriage, but I'm gonna do

(38:43):
what pleases me, you do whatpleases you.
Have separate accounts, we takecare of things and in the end
we come together and we're great.
That's not lasting.
That's not something that'sconducive to a healthy
relationship, do you?

Speaker 1 (39:00):
feel based if you're okay with me bringing this up
based on how you have describedyour first marriage.
Now, you're not knocking hercause.
You guys seem to have remainedfriends for a very long time,
even after you and I weremarried.
You guys stayed in contact, soit's not dogging her or anything
like that.
But the way you have describedthe marriage is that you didn't

(39:23):
have a lot in common, so you didlead separate lives.
The only thing that brought youguys together was maybe going
to nice restaurants and dinner,but like what you liked and what
you found like was fun to do inyour leisurely time was not
what she liked, and vice versa.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
We were married singles.
Yeah, yes, 100%.
Can you relate to that?
I can relate to that 100%.
It's funny that you say that,because when I was just talking
just a few minutes ago, I forgotthat I was a married single.
Yeah, you were, and my firstwife.

Speaker 1 (39:53):
That's why I'm bringing it up.
I'm here to remind you of thehard hitting facts and truths of
your life.
Philippe, you're like I don'tknow what that means married,
single.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
I'm like well let me give you let me tell you what
that means in definition.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
But I lived it.
You lived it.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Thank you for bringing me back to reality.
Yes, yes, yes.
So, yes, we were.
I mean, financially we weregreat, we had a great time, we
looked good.
But yeah, we were married,singles because we lived
separate lives.
During the week, she did herthing, I did my thing.

(40:31):
On Fridays and Saturdays wewent to restaurants.
That was our thing.
We love going out, we lovehaving dinner, nice places,
experiencing different types offood.
We didn't discriminate on whatwe ate and stuff like that, but
we lived separate lives.
So, yeah, we were married, butwe were more like roommates,

(40:57):
more than anything, and that'snot sustainable.
I guess if you wanted to, youcould sustain that and people do
that in reality.
But yeah, that's kind of likeyou just do your thing, I do my
thing, we come together or wejust keep up appearances, and
that's I think a lot ofChristians do that.
They just keep up appearancesat church and in the community,

(41:18):
because it would look bad if wewere to get divorced and people
think, oh, what's going on withthe Smiths and those people?
Yeah, the Joneses, the Jonesesand the Tallys and stuff like
that.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
So the Tallys are marvelous, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
But yeah, definitely a lot of people do that.
They're single but they'remarried.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
That sounds sad.
Were you sad?

Speaker 2 (41:45):
At the time I didn't think I was.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Oh, okay, when you're going through it, you're just
going through it, because youknow you're single, so you get
to do your own thing.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
And it's like you got the best of both worlds.
Mm-hmm, I mean, that's what itsounds like.
That's what it sounds like Intheory.
It sounds amazing because I canstill be single and I can still
be married, but that's not howGod made us and it doesn't feel
right, it doesn't work and how?

Speaker 1 (42:11):
Because you said you didn't realize you were married,
single.
When did it hit you?
Or did it ever hit you?
Obviously, you guys got it theworst for a reason.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
It hit me when I had an affair.
That's when it hit me.
Because, that's when I realizedthat I wasn't happy and someone
else fulfilled my Neat.
So at that point you realizethis doesn't work.

(42:45):
Yeah.
At all, because, yeah, it feelsgreat to be just single and
hanging out and doing your ownthing, but when y'all don't have
the same interests, you don'thave the same values values, and
then you have someone that does, then you're like oh well,

(43:10):
maybe this is, but I'm stillsingle, I'm still selfish.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Well, you're married but you're acting single, but
I'm acting single, yeah, livingseparate lives.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
So for me, I was the one that stepped out on the
marriage and so, yeah, that waswhat happened and that's how I
know that doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
You just threw a bomb on this conversation.
I mean, I knew that, but younever openly talked about it.
And here we are.
You want to move on.
Yeah, I'll talk about thedetails another time for another
date.
We're just going to keep movingon.
We're going to talk aboutdivorce.
We're done with the marriagequestion.

Speaker 3 (44:02):
Look at you.
You are like you become a do it.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
This is a lead into divorce.
Let's talk about the war.
Oh dear, I'm glad we'redrinking, fellow.
These are intense.
These are intense questions.
What the hell?
You guys talk about some deepshit in your men's group, that's
all I'm saying.
But you know what?
This is what we're all goesabout.

(44:29):
We talk about some deep shithere too, so thank you for
bringing this to the table.
Yes, all right, so we'retalking about divorce because
we're so.
We talked about what works in amarriage, what brings things
together.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
And when you're not practicing those four laws, what
happens?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:49):
divorce, divorce, step it out.
All that stuff, not some goodstuff.
Okay, from your experience,what are major causes of divorce
?
What did you guys talk about?
What are the major causes?

Speaker 2 (45:02):
I'd say two biggest things Unresolved conflict and
finances.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Finances was not an issue for you guys.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Unresolved conflict was.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Unresolved conflict.

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Yes, because we had weekly, monthly arguments about
religion.
Uh huh.
And race all the time.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Religion and race were the two conflicts.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
And you know what we just agreed to disagree.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
So those are value, value topics.
Yes, so you guys were on thewrong side.
Well, not on the wrong side, onthe opposite side of that
argument, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
Because with religion she was an atheist.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
I can't believe you.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
And I was a Christian .

Speaker 1 (45:53):
To this day.
I can't believe you married anatheist yes.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
But there's a thing she was so lost, and so she was
an atheist, she was aScientologist, she was a
Buddhist.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
And how did you say I'm going to marry Our?

Speaker 2 (46:13):
dating and marriage.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
She was all of those things, and you said I am all
that and a bag of chips.
And I'm going to change her andI will flip this girl.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yes, it was a challenge, Because God is, this
is going to flip this whole.
And you know what?
We got married in a church andshe was okay with that.
She was okay with that Becausebecause her parents were
Christians.

Speaker 1 (46:41):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
She just wasn't.
She grew up as a Christian Okay, but as an adult, when I met
her, she wasn't Okay.
So, in my mind, because herfoundation was that she doesn't
need the right person.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
And that was you, 100%.
That was you, felipe.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
And it wasn't me.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
I mean some of us have some confidence.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Yes, and race problems that we had.
Because her mother was whiteand her father was Ugandan, you
know, african, she didn'tbelieve race existed, racism,
and so we would have argumentsall the time about that.

(47:30):
Wow, which was crazy, becauseI'm like you're a black woman,
you're a black woman, you're adouble minority.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
I mean, you look at her and she looks like a black
woman.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
to me she's not going to pass as white.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I mean, she's light-skinned, light-skinned.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
She's light-skinned.
She might have an Indian or afamily, but this is the thing
about it, yeah.
When she went to specialty indentistry.
She went to a specialty school,became an endodontist that's
people do root canals.
That was her first in her mindexperience of racism and that's

(48:12):
when the first time she admittedthat she was discriminated
against.
Would you know the crazy thingabout that wise, what that's?
When we became closer and thenshe had amnesia after that.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
She forgot, she persevered, and then it was back
to there's no racism, there'sno racism, it doesn't exist.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
And yeah, there's no way in the world.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
That just goes back to.
I think as humans, as people,we like to look at someone and
see the potential of that person, instead of looking at them for
who they are at that moment.
Yes, and I think that's not.
I think that's where we just weneed to stop doing that, it's,

(49:07):
it's, it's.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
We have this idea of like oh, they have that I can
change them, I can make thembetter and if they change,
that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
You have to look at people for who they are in that
moment.
Yes, can I live with thisperson?
For the rest?

Speaker 2 (49:20):
of my life.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
They never change.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
If this is who they are, this is who they're going
to be for the rest of my life.
And if I had that?
It would have been a hell, no100%, yeah, 100%, because
sometimes you deal with peopleand potential.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
You're like oh yeah, but everything else checks the
box.
This we can work.
She's educated.
Yeah, she's a professional,she's attractive yeah.
She meets all the boxes, but ifshe never changes, you have to
be okay with it.
This is not going to work, yeah, and if you can say that, then

(50:04):
that's not the one.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
That's the question, and when you start teaching on
women, younger kids?

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Yes, and women do that a lot.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Oh, we're notorious for that.
Like oh, he has potential.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
I can make him better , mm-hmm One.
I'm gonna get my way, mm-hmm.
So I'm gonna get my way.
I'm gonna manipulate thissituation, I'm gonna maneuver
this situation, I'm going tosmart this situation.
Whatever you want to say,whatever words you want to throw
in there, whatever verb youwant to use, and at that point

(50:44):
you're gonna say I can make himdo what I want him to do, or I
can make him become the personthat I know he can be.
Yeah.
And no.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
And maybe sometimes that does work out for certain
people.
I'm sure there's people outthere that have that story.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
They'll call in or say, hey, I did that, yeah,
that's me.
Yeah, but he had to choose tobecome that person.
Yeah, she had to choose tobecome that person.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
It's it, yeah, that's the difference Do not make that
choice.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Yeah, you can't make anyone do anything in this life
if they don't want to do it,because they only do it
temporarily, they only do it forthat moment, for that period of
time, and that will not makeyou happy.
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Moving on to divorce, they always say that with the
second marriage it's a higherprobability of a divorce rate.
With the second marriage,mm-hmm, but it's interesting
that that's like a statistic,right, but I don't, and the
people that we know, or that Iknow, the second marriage seems
like it's the stronger marriage.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
But you know what the biggest key to that?

Speaker 1 (52:00):
is what is it.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Did you learn from the first one?

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Okay, so what, where does?
The statistic come from that.
It's a higher probability.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
I don't learn from that.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
But I think do you think that's a small percentage?
No, I don't that people getremarried and remarried.
I feel like people get married.
You know what people think?
Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
What are people selfish?
Yeah.
So what?
Who do they place the blame on?

Speaker 1 (52:23):
the first marriage?
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
This next person I marry.
That's gonna be the one.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
So it's a coincidence that we have all these people
in our lives that have beenmarried a second time.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, because you don't want to admit that you're
the problem, I know.
But who is the commondenominator in those multiple
marriages?

Speaker 1 (52:42):
That one person.
What I'm trying to say is Ifind that people did make a
mistake with that first onebecause they rushed into it or
didn't see the signs.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
And the second one was better.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
With the second one, it seems like they were more
conscious of who they're picking.
I think it's very rare thatthat ends.
And then there's third wife orfourth wife or fifth wife.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
What is the thing?
That's what I think.
This is what did I feel.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
So I don't know where they got these statistics up,
and I would say this because Isaid this before Okay, All of my
siblings have been divorcedPresently all of them are on the
second one.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Or on their second one, except, but you know.
So the people that are on theirsecond marriage are happier.
They're with their person, yeah, but they learned from their
first marriage.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
I know but that's what I'm saying that I think
most people do learn from thefirst marriage.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
I don't think our example is the rule.
I really don't.
I think there's a lot ofselfish and most people think,
oh no, that's that person'sproblem.
I didn't do anything wrong, Iwas perfect.
I may have one or two thingsthat were wrong with me.

(54:00):
I think that's a smallpercentage.

Speaker 1 (54:01):
All I'm saying is the second divorce, the second
marriage doesn't seem.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
You think the second marriage is more successful.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
That's what I'm saying because you learned.
I think this theory of that thedivorce rate for second
marriage is higher is flawed,right, because there is, there
are.
There is a small percentage ofpeople that just don't learn,
and they do have multipledivorces, but for the most part

(54:31):
I agree to disagree.
I think listen, get out of here.
I don't know.
I think some people do learnfrom that first one.
I think most people don't I do.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
I think most people are selfish.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I'm not saying people are not selfish.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
I think most people think that they're not the
problem.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
So you're saying there's more people on this
planet that have a third?

Speaker 2 (54:53):
marriage, a fourth marriage, a fifth marriage under
their belt, I think, after thesecond one.
I think they don't do itanymore.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
That's what I think.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
I think most people are like hey, you know what Most
people.
Obviously you have exceptionsto rules.
I think most people walk intotheir second marriage thinking
they were not the problem intheir first.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
I agree, I do agree with that, but then they grow
with that second person I am.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
I'm only basing it.
I'm basing it on the peoplethat are around us.
I agree with that 100%, becausethe people around of us around
us are better in their secondmarriage.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yes, that's what I say 100%, 100% so.
I'm just going off of that.
I don't know about the rest ofthe world.
I feel like there's a lot ofpeople that are on their first
marriage, that have been marriedfor like 40, 50 years, 30 years
, that are miserable, so I don'treally count them.
They feel like I feel like theypride themselves on oh, we're
still married.
But who wants to be marriedthat long and be miserable?

(55:54):
anyway, I don't know.
Okay, so, speaking of secondmarriages, we're going to go off
that most people stay marriedto their second spouse.
I refuse to believe thatthey're, that they're the

(56:15):
minority.
I don't think they're theminority.
I think they're the majority,but with those people, since I
wasn't technically married, butI had a child with someone.
So I don't know, maybe we canlearn from that.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
That was deeper than just breaking up with someone.
What have you done?

Speaker 1 (56:34):
differently in the second marriage.
What have you learned?
What has God revealed to you?
What's your contribution to thefailure of your first marriage
that you didn't bring into thesecond?
Let's talk about that.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
I think for me one of the best things that happened
to me was like we had premarriage counseling, but after
we were divorced we had we didcounseling together and then we
did individual counseling.
I carried on with my individualcounseling with our person that

(57:12):
we counseled with after ourdivorce.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
So you guys went to counseling after the divorce.
That's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Uh, throughout the yeah, when we had that process
of the divorce to decide if wereally knew what to get divorced
right.
And I continued, even though wegot divorced with that same
counselor individually andworked through problems.
Cause I think that's why I feelso adamant about it is, if I

(57:43):
didn't do that, even though Iwasn't, um, your, I was your
person and we were meant to betogether.
But I would have been and Iwould not have been the person

(58:04):
that I was when we got marriedif I hadn't gone through that
counseling.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
You think so?

Speaker 2 (58:09):
And I wasn't even perfect after I'd gone through
it, obviously because we stillhad problems.
But with that counseling Irecognize where I contributed to
our marriage not working even.
Yeah, obviously I wasunfaithful, but also there was

(58:35):
things that I contributed tothat process that if I hadn't
gone through that counseling andthat therapy, that I would have
um brought into our marriage.
I would have brought baggagesuitcases that I had to unpack

(58:59):
with that therapist prior to ourmarriage, cause if I hadn't, I
would have walked in thinking Iwasn't the problem and I would
have repeated that process inour marriage.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
And you would have had to sleep with one eye open
because I would have punched youin the throat, cut off body
parts, right yeah.
So aren't you glad you went totherapy because I would have
died in my sleep.
I wouldn't have killed you inyour sleep, I would not have

(59:39):
done that, but I would severelyhave hurt you in your sleep, or
not even in your sleep you couldhave been awake.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
So yeah, I think from uh, so therapy helped.
Therapy helped 100%, and that'sthe thing in the black
community that you know we don'twant to.
We think therapy is like forwhite people and uh, therapy is
just for people.
I mean, mental health is a trueproblem, but the thing is you

(01:00:11):
have to think.
With therapies, you have tolook within yourself, because
you can't think that it issomeone else's problem.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
And you get someone that you know.
Obviously they're notemotionally tied up with your
situation, so they're just kindof.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
They have a very subjective.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Yeah, they have zero emotions.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Right and they can give you perspective on it.
And with any mental health, anymental or whatever thing, you
have to Be able to cope and dealwith your issues.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
What were some?
What were some things that youthink would have if you hadn't
had therapy.
You would have brought intothis marriage, like what were
some epiphanies for you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Oh, I see what you're doing there.
I see what you're doing.
What am I doing?
So what?
I would have walked into yourquestion.
I would have walked into this,thinking, just like I said, that
nothing that took place was myproblem.
Like what?
I want, I'm just curiousdespite her being an atheist,

(01:01:21):
despite her not thinking thatracism existed, I, I still would
have Seen where I Was selfish.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Like, whatever you did was justified because of
this and this and this don'talign with me.
Okay, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Because, yeah, those were two big things that we
argued about and those wereundisolved conflicts.
But if I didn't realize thethings that I contributed to the
marriage, that was my fault,the things that I needed to
resolve with myself, then Iwould have walked into our

(01:01:59):
relationship thinking, yeah,when this happens, then it's
really not me.
It has to, it has to beLeannette's problem, and maybe I
wouldn't have had that Godmoment when I was about to leave
and walk out, that day that IRealize that you know what it is

(01:02:27):
about me.
I'm not perfect, I'm not someonethat's without fault or blame,
and that was hard to down andface that in the first marriage
and To see that, you know, Iactually did contribute to that.
Besides, besides the obviousthings Because everyone can

(01:02:47):
bring up the obvious things,that's a problem, but that's the
things that that are underlyingthat you actually also
Contribute to this whole process.
And so when it is Somethingthat you have to look at
yourself and you have to say,hey, this is what I contributed

(01:03:09):
to this Situation and this issomething that I need to improve
on, that's when you really growand that's when you really have
to look within yourself and say, hey, yeah, you didn't do this.
Well, you Brought on this issueand this is something you need

(01:03:31):
to improve on, because you canever do.
You just gonna take thatbaggage, you're gonna take that
Suitcase and bring it to youdon't travel with that, you
gonna bring it into the next oneand then just continue to think
, hey, I'm gonna unpack it here.
Mm-hmm.
I'm gonna bring this suitcasedown, this baggage, into this
relationship and Well, some ofus don't like to unpack

(01:03:52):
suitcases.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I just stay clothes.
Exactly, I'm just putting acloset somewhere.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
And then yeah, and here we are.
I.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Mean some good stuff.
You were very vulnerable today,for the very proud of you.
Thank you very um, I Hate thatyou got a divorce, but I'm
thankful at the same time.
Can't can two emotions existlike.
Divorce is always sad and andyou never want that.

(01:04:26):
However, we wouldn't have thelife that we have had an event
for you getting a divorce, yes.
So you know Negative can beturned into positives.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
You really want something different for yourself
cuz Khalil and Karen would notbe here right now, no, so yes,
that's a beautiful thing.
It is a beautiful thing Iwouldn't have gotten to be with
Kaylin.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, I've been in her life and missed out on all
this amazing, this that'ssitting in front of you.
Oh my goodness.
I can't even imagine I am likeso fun, I'm hilarious, yes, and
I keep you on your toes 100%,100%.

Speaker 2 (01:05:12):
So you know, this is the life that we built.
Mm-hmm.
This is the life that we havetogether and it hasn't always
been amazing and beautiful andperfect.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
But you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
It is what it has been?
Yeah, because we are who we areand we've learned from it,
we've grown from it, but thebottom line through all of this
is that we've always loved eachother.
Yeah, we've never not lovedeach other.
Now we might not have likedeach other at the moment.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
I've always liked you .
What are you talking about,phillip?
I always liked you.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Yeah, we've always loved each other.
Yeah, and we always knew whatour foundation and at the yes,
at the core of everything.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
We do have the same I ideas and values of what we
want from our life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
For our kids in this world.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
It's the same, yes, so, even though situations arise
that are Feel devastating atthe time, or feel overwhelming
or feel you know, you just feelyour feelings deep down, you
know we're on the same page,we're on the same team and this
is an uncomfortable situationand an uncomfortable moment, but

(01:06:28):
we believe and we have the samegoals and we believe in the
same things.
The foundation is solid, right?
So all this other little shitthat comes up, it's just a
matter of communicating, right,being honest, being real, being
open and we can resolve thatconflict and being mature enough
to receive it, becausesometimes it's hard to receive

(01:06:48):
yes, information that, like you,can tell me that, oh, you're
being a certain kind of way inthis moment.
That's not who I am at my core.
I'm being that person at thatmoment.
And you should be able to saythat and I need to be able to
receive it, even though it's notcomfortable.
I'm not gonna receive it withlike, oh yes, you're right,

(01:07:09):
Phillip.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
I'm being selfish.
Nobody loves that but if youhaven't had that moment, like I
said previously, if I didn'thave that Therapy, I Would have
never recognized, when youbrought that up, that I was in
the wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Mm-hmm also, it's a balance and we'll end you know
we're ending this conversationcrazy but I feel Within looking
at that there's a balance ofwhere you have to show that
person that you really love themand really are there for them,

(01:07:50):
so that when you do bring upsomething that's uncomfortable,
they know that it's coming froma place of love.
Yeah of that.
I'm bringing this to youbecause it doesn't feel right in
my spirit and we talk about it,right, and then that other
person receives it like shit.
You know, yeah, this I don'tlike.
You bring this to my attention,right, but I know it's coming
from place of love, becauseeverything else in our lives you

(01:08:12):
show me that you love me, youshow that is the magic sauce.
Yes, I feel that's the magicsauce is very hard to get to
that point, but but once you getthere, it's like, okay, this is
a safe space.
He's, it's.
He's not talking about me as aperson, he's just talking about
me in that situation, right.

(01:08:34):
And then I can step back andand and look at it and be like,
yeah, you're right or maybesometimes you're not right, but
let's have a conversation aboutwhy you think that this is my
perspective.
This is where I'm coming from,this is why I reacted that way
or this is why I say what I said.
Let's get some perspective andhave that conversation, but it
has to be.
It has to come from a place ofI am secure With this

(01:08:57):
relationship with this person.
Right, because they have shownme X, y and Z, so that when they
bring some crap to me that Ineed to change it's and I and
that's lacking in a lot ofrelationships, not even just
romantic relationships, justrelationships in general with
mom and a dad or a mom and adaughter, a mom and a son or a

(01:09:20):
Sister and a brother or sisterand a sister.
It's that insecure that youmaybe you don't feel Seen or
hurt by that person, so everylittle thing feels like an
attack because you don't feellike you have a foundation, 100%
.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Yeah so it's just relationships.
It's almost like what daddyused to say and I don't know if
I'm saying this correctly,because those are the biggest
thing you always said when youhave an argument or discussion,
is it the right time, is it thetruth, and is it from a place of
love, and if you can answer yesto all of that, and then you

(01:09:57):
have that conversation.
But so yeah, you're right.
So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
No, I thank you.
I thank you, felipe.
Thank you, felipe.
Thank you, philip.
This was a Deep conversation.
I know you and I can talk aboutmarriage for forever.
I'm sure we'll come back andtalk about other things.
I feel like we're passionateabout it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
All right, love you.
I love you too, thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Thank you so much for listening to Virago 24 7.
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(01:10:54):
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