Ever wondered how lighting can transform an entire space without you even noticing the lights themselves? That’s exactly what Martin Klaasen uncovers, taking you through his journey from setting up Philips' project lighting division in Asia Pacific to his own lighting design practice Klaasen Lighting Design. This episode promises to enrich your understanding of lighting design, offering not only practical insights but also Martin's personal approach to blending visual appeal with practicality.
Explore specific projects like the Atlas Bar in Singapore, where a suspended lighting system that brightens decorative ceiling paintings and the innovative, atmosphere-enhancing lights at the Naera Hotel in Xitang, China. Learn about the importance of aligning lighting concepts with client expectations, the integration of IoT in modern lighting, and the necessity of realistic renderings. Some of Martin's stories include turtle-friendly beach lighting to grand openings that earned heartfelt hugs from clients, illustrate the profound impact of thoughtful lighting design on architectural spaces and client relationships alike.
Martin also delves into the complexities of client communication and the environmental considerations that come into play in lighting projects. Reflecting on memorable projects, sharing the invaluable lessons he's learned, emphasising the importance of trust, collaboration, and staying updated with industry trends. We hope this presentation offers wisdom and insights, leaving you inspired and eager to tune in to more presentation like this in the future .
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How valuable lighting can be without being picked out
as the main element To me.
I know that without thelighting it would look like that
right, but that to me meansokay, I've done a good job.
I manage my clients'expectations when I present the
lighting design, so I need tomake sure that when I do a
concept, it's important to beable to create something that
(00:24):
when they come to site, they'relike ah yeah, that's what I
expected to see.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
when I present a design, I want to make sure that
what I present I can actuallyrealize welcome back to the
virtual lighting designcommunity podcast, a global
platform that empowers, inspires, inspires, educates and
connects the lighting designcommunity.
This podcast is brought to youby our premium supporters Aero
(00:50):
Hospitality Lighting, creativeLighting Asia, erco, the Signify
Lighting Academy and PhilixLighting.
In this episode, we bring youan insightful recording of
Martin Clausen's engagingpresentation at the UniOlympics
event hosted at UNIOS HQ inPerth, western Australia.
Martin shares his expertise byaddressing seven key questions
(01:10):
frequently asked in the lightingindustry, covering topics such
as the value of light,aesthetics, design direction,
client demands, service delivery, thought process, innovation
and client collaboration.
The presentation wraps up withan interactive Ask Me Anything
session, where the audience'swell-thought-out questions
contribute to a stimulatingdiscussion.
(01:31):
This episode not only providesvaluable insights, but also
offers a glimpse into Martin'sextensive 45 years of industry
experience, which he regularlyshares through his platform.
Lighttalk, available atlighttalkspace, offers a
treasure trove of resources,including Martin's blog, books,
masterclasses, mentoring andmore.
The presentation goes for justover an hour and is worth a
(01:52):
listen right to the end.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We have an awesome opportunity to speak with a
remarkable individual.
We have Martin Klassen herewith us today, so he's an.
I don't even need to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, okay, let's go.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
A bit of background about Martin is he's an
award-winning lighting designer,he's a consultant, he's an
lecturer and he's a resourcespeaker with more than over 40
years' experience in lightingdesign, martin was the first
person deployed in Singapore toset up the project lighting
division for Philips, all theway back in 1988 to start up
(02:47):
their division for Asia Pacific.
Based all those years ago, hispassion for lighting design is
now through his own companycalled Class and Lighting Design
, where the head office is basedin.
Singapore.
We are very fortunate becauseMartin is actually based in
Perth nowadays and so he'sobviously based here, so he can
share some of his knowledge andhis learnings.
(03:07):
Over the years, many of hisdesigns have received national
and international lightingdesign awards, and he's widely
respected by the industry andhis peers.
Just a bit of a brief synopsisas well is he's a sought-after
impact speaker and he has spokenat the Professional Lighting
Design Convention, europe,europe, the ILD light fair in
(03:28):
the USA, the Guangzhou lightingexhibition, the Hong Kong
lighting fair, the light MiddleEast, the project lighting and
lux light in world bets in Asia,and it just keeps going enough
please help me.
Well, warmly welcome, mr martinclass.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Thank you all right, can you hear me?
Well?
Yeah, okay, cool.
Well, you said more than 40years.
In fact, this year is my 45thyear in the business, so time to
actually calm down a bit andrelax.
But thank you for theinvitation.
I've been here, basedpermanently now since COVID
(04:10):
times.
I don't regret it.
It's a fantastic time and placeto be.
I'll be sharing to you a fewthings, because what I would
like to do is share some thingsthat I've come across as a light
designer.
Obviously, I come to projectsites.
I've visited othermanufacturers not only you guys,
(04:30):
but I've met many of those overthe years.
So I want to share all that,what it also means to me,
through a number of questionsand at the end of it, I'll leave
the floor to you guys to ask meliterally anything you want.
There's nothing off the table.
You can ask me anything.
If I don't have the answer,I'll let you know honestly, but
(04:52):
in principle, you can askanything.
So first I would like to tellyou a little bit more so that
you get an even betterunderstanding from where I'm
coming from and what I'm doingnowadays.
First of all, as Paleymentioned, I have my class in
lighting design, which is mycore business head office in
Singapore.
(05:12):
We have a little office here.
We have an office in Shanghai,jakarta and nowadays also in
Portugal and Europe.
I've stepped a little bit awayfrom the main business.
I've stepped a little bit awayfrom the main business, trying
to focus more on the educationalthings that also are important
to me.
That's why I like doing thiskind of thing sharing my
(05:33):
knowledge.
There's no point for all theknowledge staying in here, so
it's nice if I can share it withyou guys, and that's why please
ask any questions afterwards,so at least you can make use of
that.
Ask any questions afterwards,so at least you can.
You can make use of that.
And this is the platform onwhich I'm now actually speaking
to you.
I have created, since many, manyyears, light talk.
(05:55):
I have a blog that maybe someof you may be following.
I actually brought some bookswith me and, if I'm correct,
those people who ask questionsget the book.
Is that something like that?
So there's quite a number ofbooks there, and that gives you
an insight on my life as alighting designer.
(06:16):
So, first of all, kld.
There's heaps.
You go to the website, you willfind a lot of projects, a lot in
hotel industry.
These are some of the thingsthat you can find here in Perth,
like Palace Hotel, majestyTheatre, things like Riverside
Drive, but sometimes we also godown south, like to Market River
, where we do wineries andthings like that.
(06:38):
So I'm really enjoying doingprojects in Western Australia,
where we also do hotels up inHeadland, karata, broome.
I've just started one downsouth as well, but doing a
winery has nice perks becausethen you can also do a bit of
wine drinking.
This was during actual testingof the lighting, by the way,
(06:59):
because we needed to see how itworks with real wine and how we
can appreciate the taste and thewhole experience.
If you go down to MargaretRiver this is Cape Mantel the
guy on the right, nicolas, isstill there.
You can say hello to him.
But yeah, this will actually bean IES award recently.
(07:20):
This project Good To the orderof the day.
So you know a bit what I'mdoing in that respect.
What I wanted to do is put anumber of questions of myself,
give you the feedback on how Ithink about these things and
what these values mean to me asa lighting designer, and at the
end I'll invite you to reallyask any questions that I may not
(07:41):
have touched upon, becausethere's so many things.
I'm just taking a snapshot hereof things, right?
So my first question is aboutthe value of light, and I'm
often asked what is the biggestinsight I have learned from
working in lighting designindustry over the many years
when I do my projects.
And the answer may possiblysurprise you, because the answer
(08:07):
is that for me, the bestcomment that I can get about a
lighting design that I've doneis actually no comments at all,
because if I don't get anycomments, it somehow means it's
totally and harmoniouslyintegrated in the rest, because
lighting doesn't exist by itself.
It's part of architecture, it'spart of interiors, it's part of
(08:27):
an experience.
Now, those of you from Singapore, they probably know the Atlas
Bar.
That, to me, is one of myfavorite projects, because even
when I enter it myself, I'm awedby the whole feeling, and it's
not just the lighting, though.
I have to say, if you knew theAtlas Bar before, when it was
(08:48):
still called the Divine Bar orsomething, with the little angel
going up the tower, that is ahuge difference.
But when you come in, you feelreally immersed in this ambience
and mood, and obviouslylighting plays a very big role
in this ambience and mood andobviously lighting plays a very
(09:08):
big role.
So what has this done?
The lighting?
It has been integrated, even ifyou look at this picture, even
though it may be a bit small foryou.
But if you look at the picture,lighting is really not
specifically present.
It's in there, but you can'treally see the light sources.
Maybe the pendants show off alittle bit.
But one of the things I think Ican show here Can you see my?
(09:29):
No, you can't see the Anyhow.
There's a suspended system, arig that hangs roughly at the
level of the mezzanine balconiesand it has been finished in a
(09:51):
copper polished feelingreflecting the environment.
So you actually don't reallysee, okay, and then, ah, okay,
cool, thank you, maybe youshould stay here, but anyhow,
you see this structure here,right, that is suspended from
(10:12):
the ceiling.
It's suspended from four pointsonly.
So you can imagine thestructural Too difficult word
the technical prowess that wentinto designing that and making
sure it's properly suspended.
But you can hardly see it andthat was key in the whole design
(10:34):
trying to make the lightdisappear and really bring out
the interiors.
So there's, okay, the covelightings I think you can all
imagine, but bringing out thesedecorative paintings in the
ceiling by soft washing them.
We had to really test all thatright.
It was really important to makesure it comes out.
It's not just, oh, we put itthere, no, we actually did
(10:58):
visual mock-ups on site to makesure.
Even from this structure that'spending, we have like a 90
degree angle from about threemeters.
This way, three meters this wayfabricated, suspended and
tested to make sure that thelights are in here.
You can see those little blackpoints here.
These are remote controlledlights.
That means they can actuallytake away the furniture and use
(11:22):
the space as a function space.
So that means that if there's adifferent setup, you want to
change the lighting.
So rather than to climb up aladder because this is about
four or five meters high so it'snot easy to to adjust with your
hands.
So that was done with remotecontrol lighting.
We have different settings toto account for that.
But there's little lightsincluded in here.
(11:47):
If you look at it, it's all verynicely and softly integrated
and to me that was key togetting this as a harmonious
lighting.
And when people come in theylook at the totality.
They don't say, oh, thelighting is beautiful.
Nobody really says the lightingis beautiful.
It's more like, oh, it's thespace and if?
If you've been in there, you'llknow what I mean, right?
(12:08):
So, yeah, that's basically tome how valuable lighting can be
without being picked out as themain element To me.
I know that without thelighting it would look like that
, right, but that to me meansokay, I've done a good job.
Now, if we talk about aestheticsand design direction, what has
(12:33):
lighting design?
How does it impact in project?
How can you make lightingdesign impact?
What do you do?
How do you get it to sort ofstand out?
Because we have all standardsolutions, but in order to
create something memorable,sometimes you need to think out
(12:56):
of the box, right, and that issomething that you need to dare,
because you can take a provenrecipe in terms of lighting just
downlights or wall washers butdoing something that's not
really done before, or do it abit differently, is something
that also takes guts, but alsotakes the necessary knowledge in
(13:21):
terms of being able to educateyour client on how to do that,
because you may want to dosomething, but if the client
can't follow you and doesn'tunderstand why you want to do it
, then you will have a difficultproposition.
So this is our Nera Hotel inXitang, just outside Shanghai.
Xitang is, by the way, whereMission Impossible 3 was filmed,
(13:44):
where Tom Cruise runs over theroofs and along the water town.
That's where this is, justoutside.
So this narrow hotel has acourtyard right here with water
body.
So there's no lighting in here.
Everything is reflected in thewater body.
(14:04):
So that's also a verypurposeful decision not to put
any lights in the water but usethat water surface to extend the
lighting and lighting effects.
So you can see it's allreflected there is.
So it's a modern architecturewith a traditional Chinese
pavilion in the middle, but youcan see everything is reflected.
(14:27):
So it's important to understandhow the architectural and the
rest work together.
But what we did you see here abit of blue what we have done in
this project as a dare to bedifferent thing, is a light show
, and the light show is done byusing the public areas.
(14:47):
So we've got like the receptionbar here, this lobby entrance.
Here there's a library, there'sa tea house and behind is a
restaurant and and another bar.
All these are on a and anotherbar.
All these are on a.
All the core chart facing areashave colored lighting, but they
(15:17):
only come on at a certain time,like every half hour, I think.
The current program is forabout five to ten minutes and
lights will change.
So you can see, here it's blue,then it becomes red and
sometimes the light moves, butit's not very fast thing.
It's a very soft movingexperience.
So when you're in the bar, inthe restaurant, suddenly say oh,
something is happening and youcan see how that suddenly
(15:37):
impacts and people stand stilland they look and, oh, that's
nice, but it's not disruptive asbeing a, that's nice, but it's
not disruptive as being a verypompous light show, but it's
something very soft in thebackground.
And now this hotel is used byarchitects, designers.
They come there for study tours, apparently I've been told nice
(15:57):
to know but but it's the designprinciples that we have applied
in this hotel are now used formany designers, specifically
architects and interiordesigners, to show them how
light and architecture can beintegrated together.
The colors are very warm.
It's really nice.
What we also found that incountries like China they are a
(16:21):
bit more daring, right?
So if you have ideas on whatyou could do, you also need a
client that is willing toexperiment.
I find it in Australia a bitmore difficult.
They're very this way here,right, if you go to countries in
Asia possibly also becauserules are maybe a bit less
(16:41):
followed I don't know how to saythat nicely you can do more
things right.
They're willing to experiment.
Here.
Everything has to comply withthis, comply with that, right.
But in Asia, and Chinaspecifically, I find the clients
very willing to experiment anddo things like this.
(17:02):
So that's one of theexperiences that I feel you need
to explore and sometimes pushthe envelope a little bit.
And that's also where you needyour relationship with you guys,
because I may have it in here,but I also need to be able to
talk to people like yourselfthat know what you can do with
(17:26):
your products, to see how we canmanage to do this.
So that's an important messagethat I would like to share Now.
Another one is differences inclient demands.
We have clients from all overthe world that have different
ways of dealing, different waysof dealing right.
(17:49):
So this is very much about whatis important to a client
depending on where you are.
In Australia, my clients aredifferent than when I'm in China
, and I reference a lot to Chinabecause we do a lot of jobs
also in China, india, middleEast, but I can now reference it
also very well with what we dohere in Australia.
So when I focus on the projectshere and in Asia, what I found
(18:12):
the main difference is basicallyquality versus quantity.
In China, every dollar counts Iknow here as well but it's
different In China, it'sliterally every dollar, right
here.
Yes, of course we want to bebudget, but a spec is a spec
(18:36):
most of the time in Australiaand a lot of the clients, if I
don't sign off, they don't signoff.
Right, we are currently workingwith NX here in Perth.
Right, that's a Lendlease.
No, is it Lendlease Anyhow?
One of those, but very strict,and they definitely if I don't
(18:59):
sign off on the project, theydon't take the responsibility of
signing off.
In China, asia, it's not thesame.
If I don't sign off, they don'ttake the responsibility of
signing off In China.
Asia is not the same If I don'tsign off, they don't care,
right?
I mean I'm saying that a bitexaggerated, but that's really
the case.
So, for instance, here this isthe Hong Kong Jockey Club that
(19:19):
chandelier.
You wouldn't be able to seewhether it's crystal or just
cheap glass, right, but there'sa hell of a difference in price.
If you're in China, I can betyou that's either plastic or
very, very cheap glass, right?
In this case it was a bitdifferent.
(19:40):
There was actually one of thosereal chandelier makers like it
was Preciosa or Lasvit or someof those people.
So that cost a lot of money.
But most of the time these kindof things in China are
reproductions, cheap copies,right, and they save a lot of
money.
(20:00):
Now I can push it, say, well, Ican't accept it, but how strong
is that?
That would be more the interiordesigner or the architect who
needs to come in tandem with meto say, well, listen, the
sparkle is not there if youdon't have extra crystal glass,
right.
So that's the one of the keyelements that we have to work
(20:22):
with continuously.
Sometimes it's also called valueengineering I'm sure you have
heard that word as well whereyou start here and then you have
to end up somewhere herebecause they don't have that
sort of budget now.
Tip, or just secret sharing.
If we want to end up here, wesometimes propose here, right.
(20:47):
So we may know that the clientonly has this sort of budget.
But in true Asian fashion, if Ipropose something here.
I'll end up here anyhow.
So I may as well propose herethat when I got through my
negotiations and valueengineering, I roughly arrived
(21:09):
where I want to be.
So what do I do?
I add in a few lighting pointsthat I know I can get rid of
later on, don't tell.
But that's a way to somehowachieve where you want to be,
because you know that very often.
But even here in Australia,there's also a lot of value
(21:29):
engineering going on.
But in China, in Asia, it'svery strong.
So you need to be prepared Evenfor our own fee negotiations.
If I want to have 100 as fee, Ineed to propose 120.
Because I will need tonegotiate, so knowing that.
But it finds its way in ourlighting design as well.
(21:51):
So sometimes we propose someextra downlights, some nice to
have, but not critical.
That's how we can managesometimes.
The cost-quality relationshipyeah, so that's the cost versus
quantity and quality.
Now service delivery.
(22:11):
I mentioned to you before whenI was talking, before I started.
Is that service is reallyimportant.
Right, when we deliver ourprojects, we really need to have
a very good relationship withthe suppliers and the
manufacturers.
So what are some of the keyissues that we face when we're
delivering our services.
(22:32):
Well, I think quality controland speed of delivery is part of
it.
I just mentioned valueengineering.
This needs an ongoing discussionwith the specified products
that we have in mind.
In this case.
We are talking to you, right?
So, if I have specified acertain level, sometimes we can
(22:58):
engineer the light, the products, to a slightly lower cost by
just simplifying it.
I don't know we haven't gone tothat extent yet with you, but
I've had projects where Ispecified a certain brand.
Let's say the fitting was $300and the client said, sorry, I
only have $200.
(23:18):
So rather than to go to analternative, I would go back to
the manufacturer and listen,they only have $200 for this.
Can we try and maybe simplifythe product or use, whatever it
is, maybe a simpler core element?
I know most of the products areoff the shelf and regularly
manufactured, but sometimesthere's an opportunity to
(23:42):
simplify the product so that youcan still be the one that
supplies, right?
So I think that's important tounderstand that we not
necessarily need to jumpstraight away to another brand
If we like what the product does.
Sometimes it can be simplifiedto still meet.
We also look at potentiallyreducing the quantities, right?
(24:05):
So not necessarily reducing thequality, but reducing the
quantities.
So taking out the number offlights, and then there is the
speed of delivery that you know,technically our clients always
wanted.
Yesterday I think that's commonthroughout the world and
(24:27):
specifically in Asia I foundthat they and then you deliver
it and then you don't hearanything for a month.
So they want it very fast andthen nothing happens.
But that balance and findingthe way to deliver the service
is really quite important.
(24:50):
What you see here in thispicture is a project meeting
somewhere in China.
In this case it was in Yangshuoin the Guilin Mountains.
It was freezing cold.
It was January, I think.
It was zero degrees outside andwe still had a meeting, but
there's no heating.
So, as you can see, there'ssome braze, some coals and we
(25:15):
were frying bananas on that aswell.
But that was our meeting.
But that also shows the sort ofhow do you explain that?
The relationship with theclient that we're still coming
there, we're still doing it.
So your delivery is not onlyhaving a meeting in a
(25:35):
comfortable hotel room, but it'salso sometimes going to site
under the circumstances that arenot always pleasant.
You see people wearing jacketsand overcoats and it was really
cold, it was probably aboutthree or four degrees in there
but we still have our meetingand we try to walk ourselves
through whatever issues therewere on hand.
(25:57):
Yeah, I mean, one time I metKate Mantel having a drink with
a glass of wine, but the otherday I may be like this in a
meeting, so there's a lot ofcontrast.
But what I'm trying to say isservicing your client for us is
really important, and thatdoesn't come just with us being
(26:18):
there.
It also comes with your supportin the background, knowing that
you have our backs when wespecify the products.
Now the thought process is aboutwhat makes lighting a good
design and again I'm trying to,because of my experience
throughout Asia, middle East,etc.
(26:40):
I'm trying to give you a bit ofa perspective between Eastern
and Western values, and I'musing here NX Mall, which you
can go and have a look at intown.
I'm actually not sure this isyour lighting, isn't it?
Isn't that yours?
Ooh Lucky.
So one of the key things that Iwant to say is that lighting
(27:06):
design, the concept is as goodas the final implementation.
I can have beautiful renders, Ican do beautiful concepts, but
if it doesn't look good in theend, all that is not worth a lot
, Right?
So what I need to do is to makesure that I manage my clients
expectations when I present thelighting design.
(27:28):
So I need to make sure thatwhen I do a concepts on the
right hand it's a render whichwe created out of a 3d model.
On the left is what it becamein the end.
Now, it's fairly close.
I have it in this way.
There's another color here.
It's important, close.
I have it in this way.
There's another color here.
It's important to be able tocreate something that when they
(27:50):
come to site, they're like ahyeah, that's what I expected to
see, right?
And in this case, this is whathappened.
Client was very happy, signedoff, paid off, was all good.
Now we're doing NX Mall, theinteriors and the St George's
Terrace facade.
This is the Hay Street facade.
But it's really important to beas realistic as possible and
(28:14):
manage the client's expectationin terms of what it is they're
going to get.
There's no point in making.
I've been to China and some ofyou may have seen it as well.
I see renders and when I seethe renders, I said no way right
, because I know from experiencethat when I see that render,
there's no way they're gonna beable to do that in reality.
(28:34):
Now the client may fall for itoh beautiful, it's nice and then
they come to site and say isthat it?
Yeah, so that's important, Ithink, to me.
When I present a design, I wantto make sure that what I
present I can actually realize,and that again also relates back
(28:55):
to how we develop therelationship between you guys
and ourselves making sure thatwe can deliver also on
performance, making sure that wecan deliver also on performance
.
Innovation.
Now, this relates back also toIoT, because there's a lot of
things happening in our world.
Technology advances very, veryfast and for us, as for you,
(29:17):
it's not easy to keep up witheverything, right.
So that's where our line designof things also comes in, but
it's trying to understand what'sgoing on and how do we reflect
that in a project.
So what I'm trying to say isthat integrating innovation is,
in a way, a progress.
It's important to do that, andthis picture shows that it used
(29:46):
to be all about oil and thingslike that.
That was the main commoditythat drives the whole economy.
Nowadays it's data, and thatbrings it closer to our turf,
because data collection nowhappens in all the spaces.
You have sensors everywhere andwhat is happening is that the
light fitting of the future well, not so far future.
Some of them, it's already here.
It's a bit like your mobilephone.
(30:09):
Let's say, 15, 20 years agoyour mobile phone was only used
to text message and call.
Who still use their mobilephone to do that?
Your mobile phone ispredominantly a data bank that
you use to take pictures, to doyour banking.
Everything goes through yourmobile phone.
(30:29):
There's hundreds of apps whichare not much related to phones.
You FaceTime, maybe with eachother and things like that.
So what is happening with lightfitting is pretty much similar.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing into a light fitting, that
in the fitting of the future.
I predict that 80% of the lightfitting is all about data and
(30:53):
had nothing to do with lighting.
That means it's an IP point, itis an internet point.
There will be GPS positioningto that.
You can monitor what'shappening.
You get air qualitymeasurements, you can get sound
(31:17):
measurements, you gettemperature, humidity, presence
you name it.
All these kind of things can beregistered to a simple sensors.
There are sensors that can dothree or four things in one tiny
little sensor, right.
So because lighting is alsopresent in each and every space,
lighting is the idealinfrastructure to include data,
(31:42):
and that's what we see happeningmore and more Now.
The sensor, or the datacollecting point, is outside the
lighting point most of the time, but it's only very short until
that starts to be integrated,and it's already started to be
integrated in lighting.
Some lighting manufacturersprovide already the option to
(32:04):
include a sensor in their lightswhich can do some of these
functions.
Then it's not about what tomeasure, but what you do with
the data.
So you can collect any of thisinformation, but what do you do
with it?
So then you need to convertthis data information into
useful content creation.
(32:27):
Let's say that way in our casefor lighting.
But because lighting is ourturf as lighting designer, we
need to somehow stay in controlof that lighting point and not
the data people.
They say, oh, I need one pointhere, otherwise my Wi-Fi
coverage is not good, or I needthis for my Bluetooth, this and
(32:47):
that, whatever.
So we are trying to promote forus as lighting designers to at
least remain in control of whathappened with the lighting point
, even as the data contentbecomes bigger and bigger.
Now I don't know how far youare as Unios in terms of
integrating smart components,data collection, etc.
(33:10):
But if and when you do this issomething that needs very
careful consideration, also whenyou message that to your end
users and clients.
But yeah, it is very much aboutthat.
I also mentioned here socialmedia, in a way, because
nowadays, when we finish aproject or when we design a
(33:32):
project, it's also how is itgoing to look on Facebook?
How is it going to look onInstagram, right?
We even have projects wherepeople on social media commented
on the lighting and then westarted to adjust the lighting,
right.
This is an interesting thing,because we all are on our little
(33:52):
mobile phone and trying tocheck out what's happening on
social media to check out what'shappening on social media.
But it has a big influence onlighting design as well, because
we need to create those moneyshots that people like to take
pictures with, right.
So that's an important part ondoing a lighting design nowadays
as well, thinking about howthat can be promoted to the
(34:17):
social media.
Finally, before we go to ask meanything, something about client
collaboration, because we getpresented quite a lot of
projects and every time I haveto think shall we do it?
Shall we not do it?
So if you know the client,obviously no, no issue.
(34:38):
But sometimes we don't know theclient.
Sometimes it looks good and youonly know afterwards whether
you had a good relationship witha client or not.
So to me it's all about trustand respect.
I think if a client can respectyou as a lighting designer, can
trust you to do your job, thenyou have a good relationship.
(35:00):
Because I've had too often thatthey don't really.
They want you there just to beable to point their finger, but
they don't really always trustyou or they want to do their own
thing.
So developing a relationshipwith the client to us is key.
Finding or creating anenvironment in which you feel
(35:23):
that they trust you is also very, very important, right, and
that they respect your decision,respect your recommendations.
Now, that is a two-way street,because if they say, wow, yeah,
but it's nice what you want todo, martin, but um, I don't have
that sort of money to do that,or can we do it this way?
So it's a two-way street.
And when you show understandingfor where they are, but you can
(35:45):
also educate them at the sametime why you want to do
something, making sense for themto maybe spend the money to do
something.
That's where you create areally nice relationship.
And this is one of my favoritephotos, where my client really
hugs me at the end of the grandopening to thank me for what we
have done.
(36:06):
And, as I said at the bottom,as a bonus, if you have a happy
client, I can tell you theydon't have any hesitation to pay
you.
So developing that trust andrespectful relationship I think
is key, but you have to work onit and you have to really be
open.
It's not like my way or thehighway.
It is something that is atwo-way street that you develop
(36:29):
this particular client I'm doingtwo more hotels with him now.
He's become a really goodfriend, but it's the
relationship that we havedeveloped and his trust in that
what I'm giving him is the bestvalue for money.
So, having said that, I wouldsay let's take questions from
you, because otherwise I can geton and on.
(36:50):
There's so many things you maywant to ask me about lighting
design, so please feel free.
Anything you want to ask me,I'm happy to take it.
Thank you, applause, applauseapplause.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Thanks, martin, that was amazing.
Obviously we've met before andpart of my role is between
western and eastern design andculture, working across
Singapore and Thailand with mycolleague John, who's here today
as well.
I really like your contrastsand comments between the two
sides of the world.
What would be your opinion ofUnios just in your experience
(37:32):
with us so far?
That makes us stand out interms of what we offer, whether
it's product or service, and thereason I ask is we see a lot of
comparison to all sorts ofbrands, everything from very low
market of names I've neverheard of to some of the most
elite and the best in the game.
(37:52):
What would you say is maybe oneunique thing that we offer that
you've seen so far.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'm a bit prejudiced because I know Paley for quite a
while, so that relationship isalready important.
To be honest, no, no, but as Imentioned, the relationship
knowing that me or my team cancall you right, like listen, we
have specified your product.
We really like your product.
It gives good value for money,right, like listen, we have
specified your product.
We really like your product.
It gives good value for money,right, and I think where you are
(38:23):
with your price point is alsoquite competitive.
So I think that's an importantthing.
So you don't start off like thehigh Iguzini Erko level.
You're, if I'm not mistaken, abit more competitive, so that
helps in the environment wherewe live in today, in the
economical climate.
But, as I mentioned before, theservice that you provide and
(38:47):
the peace of mind that you giveus is, to me, really important.
Knowing that I can call PayDeeor yourself at any time if I
have an issue, not only me butalso my team, is something
that's really important, becausesome of the lower brands, very
cheap ones, whether from China,india, whatever, wherever they
would be you can try and callthem, but most of the time
(39:08):
there's nobody home, right?
Even the so-called warrantythat they would provide.
You ask five years warranty,sometimes even 10 years warranty
.
We may ask you want to try withthe cheaper brands?
They will say yes, but ifthere's an issue with warranty,
try to reach them Right.
So that is a relationship that'sbeing built up.
(39:32):
You follow through on that aswell.
So it's not just something thatwe talk about, it's something
that in real life, when projectscome to life and we experience
the relationship, the workingrelationship with you, which
makes us work with you Right Tome and of course you're not the
(39:53):
only one Right.
But maintaining that level ofsupport and interest and
willingness to support I thinkis key.
You have already very goodproducts.
We can have an ongoingdiscussion about how we can
improve products further, if youwant any input in that.
(40:14):
I'm doing that sometimes withPaley.
If we have some issues likelike oh, can we do this or that?
That's that's on top, is theicing on the cream or the cherry
on the cream, whateverexpression is.
But that's important as well.
But that relationship, that wefeel comfortable and know that
(40:36):
if we specify unios, they'll bethere when it matters.
Speaker 5 (40:40):
Hi Martin, thank you for such an insightful
presentation.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I'm quite passionate about lighting design as well,
so I have quite a few questions.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 6 (40:51):
What would you say is your most memorable project
that you've worked on?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I think it's those projects where, well, probably
this one is certainly one of mymemorable projects because I got
basically a hug of the kind Idon't know how many of you have
ever had a hug from your client,but to me I haven't had a lot
of those, right, I mean they'renormally very respectful, but to
(41:20):
me I haven't had a lot of those.
I mean they're normally veryrespectful, but to give me a hug
, you know that's something, ittouches you because you can feel
the passion and their happinessabout what they have.
So, sittang, if you ever comearound there, please visit it.
I think also, the Atlas Bar inSingapore is one of those
(41:41):
projects when you come in andyou feel, ah, I really did a
nice job.
Right Closer to home, we justcompleted stage one of the
Headland Hotel, which was aproperty that just faces the
turtle breeding beach.
I don't know if those peopleknow Headland, but this is
(42:04):
called Centenary Beach orsomething like that, but there's
turtle breeding.
So the lighting that we neededto apply needed to all comply
with turtle breeding,environmental biodiversity, blah
, blah, blah all these thingswhat you need to apply.
But the client was also veryhow do you say that compliant in
(42:31):
helping it come to life.
They were supporting it eventhough it was way above the
budget that they had in mind.
They wanted to make a point,but when it was finished they
were so happy.
Even Rita Schiaffosi was thename of the tourism minister.
She came down as well.
She was invited.
They invited her because theyfelt this is something special.
(42:53):
So that project also has a bigmeaning for me because we
managed to contribute with thelighting also to doing it in the
right way, because there's alot of talk about dark sky and
light pollution and beingfriendly to natural habitat and
all that.
So that project really had aclient that get along, went
(43:17):
along with it, supported it ofcourse, uses it for marketing et
cetera.
But that also gave me a lot ofsatisfaction being able to do
that yeah.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
In your many years of experience so far, have you had
a, or what was the moment thatyou that was like, oh shit, like
and like in a during a project,and how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Where do I start?
My very first memory.
I've got quite a lot of them,but I'll just pick out a few,
because it's not always flowersand good endings.
One time and it's not alwayssince I'm the boss of the
(44:09):
company the bug starts with me,even though my staff may have
made a mistake.
But I remember one day that weselect and I'm talking about 20
years ago or something, or maybeeven more but we had selected a
light fitting from a catalogue,but it was somehow put into a
drawing in which we didn't readthe scale properly.
(44:30):
So the actual fitting, when itwas installed, looked so
minuscule compared to the actualdimensions, was installed,
looks so minuscule compared tothe actual dimensions that, yeah
, it was clearly a mistakebecause we hadn't properly
looked at the dimensions.
It looked odd.
Lighting, luckily, was okay,but what do you do as a lighting
(44:54):
designer when that happens?
Oh no, this is, this is how wewanted it to be right.
So, as a designer, you alwayshave a whole list of things that
you can go through, like whyit's not your fault, but we know
, of course, that we should havedone better.
Another thing that I want tohighlight is the difference in
(45:16):
culture and acceptance.
Like I did a project many, manyyears back in Pakistan and we
did an office lighting.
So if you follow standard rulesfor lighting levels in offers,
you talk about three to fivehundred lux or something for for
an office.
Right, so we went about it,designed beautiful lighting, we
(45:40):
achieved all this and then, whenit was in, well, did we get to
install it?
Yeah, we get to install it.
They said, well, it's way toobright.
And why was it too bright?
Because we didn't account forwhat they were used to work in
At that time.
If you go to offices in AsiaPacific in general, whether it's
(46:03):
India, Pakistan, some of theoffices they work with 50, 100
lux.
That's a luxury already forthem.
And then we came with like 300to 500 lux.
They said, no, no, no, no,there's not.
That's totally, totally wrong.
We should have designed maybeto 200 lux or something to
improve, but so their mind isnot set to that right.
(46:26):
So, yeah, you can explain whyit has to be 3 to 500 lux.
But that I found was a missedopportunity to educate the
client properly about wherethey're at, where they should be
, and maybe find a way, acompromise in between, In the
(46:47):
same way, like in Japan they'revery much used to having bare
fittings, so they feel that thatbrightness in an office works
well.
And then they complain thatthey don't have enough lighting
on their desk Because obviouslythere's hardly any optics if you
(47:07):
have a bare bulb.
So we designed optics to reallypush the light down so with
half the amount of light wecould have double the amount of
light on the desk.
Again they complained it's notbright.
Now it was not bright enoughBecause they were so used to.
(47:27):
They said, yeah, but that'slate, Now you can focus.
Yeah, but we Japanese we'redifferent, Our eyes are
different or whatever they weresaying, and it sounds strange,
but that's the sort of weirddiscussions you have sometimes.
So again, a sort of missedopportunity to communicate and
educate.
(47:49):
We shouldn't be designing frombehind our desk.
We need to be able to be at thelocation to understand how
people currently work and howyour design will impact them.
A lot of designers work frombehind their desk and never
actually go to the site wherelighting is being implemented.
So that's also a big lesson.
Nowadays it's very rare for meto take on a project if we can't
(48:14):
go to site, certainly becausewe do projects all over the
world.
Here in WA it's maybe easy.
You can easily go to site,certainly because we do projects
all over the world.
Here in WA it's maybe easy, youcan easily go to a project.
But if you have to go to Indiaor China or Middle East, it
takes something in extra costfor the client also for you to
go there.
In the same way, based on thatfirst story I told you, we
(48:37):
nowadays hardly ever specify aproduct if we haven't had it in
our hands and have been able toplay with it.
We don't.
That was one of the lessonsthat sort of triggered never
specify just from a catalogue,Just have it in your hands, play
with it, make sure that youunderstand it.
Speaker 7 (48:54):
Yeah, We'll come back to that.
Yes, sorry, john, it's you.
John, it's just based on whatyou were kind of just talking
about.
So when it comes to likeeducation on, you know, two big
things is obviously what youmentioned, like colour,
temperature and brightness,especially.
You know people have so manyvarying ideas of what that
(49:16):
specific person wants that maybe against all the science and
documentation and everything,and out there.
How do you go about?
Kind of obviously there's a allright, I'm not saying you know
one right way, one wrong way,but there is a kind of way you
probably should do things, justbased on you know the evidence
and things.
How do you go about educatingpeople and and then maybe them
(49:38):
saying, no, just do it the wrongway because that's what I like,
like the ones that you werejust talking about, do you ever
get to a point where you want tojust fuck it, go in there yeah,
you really want to go in theway, because there's a hundred
people and they're going to bein there for 10 hours a day and
you really want to be beneficialfor as many people as possible.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So that's the sort of communication between you and
the client.
If you go in a meeting roomwith 20 different people, it's
very hard sometimes to getthrough right.
If I'm in China in a meeting,first of all I don't speak
Chinese a few words, but notreally and that's very
(50:20):
hierarchical.
So that means if I talk to oneperson, then that person needs
to get approved from the higherauthority and it's like all this
chain of command.
So the project manager will say, yeah, I agree, it will be good
.
And then the next person whichis higher up, because the boss
doesn't talk directly sometimes.
(50:40):
So they will come.
No, I don't agree.
So first of all, the director ofcommunication line with the
ultimate decision maker.
The more direct it is, thebetter it is to sort out things.
That as a general point.
Secondly, I have my own stylein how I like to design things.
(51:02):
So I may like 3,000 Kelvin,somebody else may like 4,000
Kelvin.
My reasoning for using 3,000 or2,700, 2,000, whatever it is
are my reasons from years ofexperience.
So it's about my ability tocommunicate, why I'm the
designer.
So you hired me as a designer,right?
(51:23):
So if you trust and respect me,that's what my recommendation
is based on my experience inwhether it's a hotel, whether
it's an office or a sportsfacility, whatever, I have my
experience and I find that thisworks best.
Does it mean so if the clientcomes up with, yeah, but I would
like to do this way, this way,what do you think?
(51:44):
Then I won't be on my highhorse saying no, no, no, I'm
doing it this way.
No, you have to listen to yourclient.
Number one prerequisite for adesigner is to be able to listen
right.
It's not about what I want,it's about understanding what
the client wants.
But with your experience, if hehas something that could work
(52:09):
as well, you can leave that asan option.
Say listen, your call.
My recommendation is this whatyou want is also possible.
It's not necessarily a badthing.
If it's a bad thing, I'll tellhim.
I say listen, no, that won'twork, because this, this, this,
always give a reason.
I can't just say no.
But if his option is also nicebut I feel not really what I
(52:30):
would do, but it's possible I'llleave him the option.
In the end, he is the client,he's the one that won, but I
have to explain and put it on aplatter to him.
Well, this is why I want to dothis.
This is what you want to do,what the plus and minus points
are, and then you're trying towork it out that way, right,
most of the time that works, butthe more interference there is
(52:53):
in terms of people involved,right, the more difficult it is
to achieve that.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Hi, I'm Elaine from the Vietnam team.
So thank you for yourpresentation, martin.
I do have a question on thedifferences in client demand
when you mentioned about Asian,and in Western, when Asian all
about cost over quality.
So you mentioned aboutsimplifying products if needed
(53:22):
for cost efficiency.
I would love to hear from alighting designer expert about
what can be compromised for costefficiency, if it's possible.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Of course, it's very project dependent.
Value engineering is a verytedious job, right?
So when?
Let me just lead you throughthe process, maybe that will
help you.
So when we design, we generallyspecify products that we are
familiar with, that we know theperformance, we know the quality
(54:00):
, we know the end result, weknow what it will give us.
As I mentioned before, becausewe know the tendency to value
engineer, we may select theslightly higher option when we
do a design, possibly even amore expensive brand, knowing
(54:20):
that we have a backup brand ifnecessary, right?
It's just to understand,because sometimes, when you ask
the client for a budget, most ofthe time we said no, we don't
have a budget, right.
But when you present a budget,it's too much, right.
So that's a typical way how itgoes.
So, knowing that we try toestablish the performance and
(54:47):
quality level that we want interms of the lighting effects,
the mood, ambience, et cetera,which means we have product X, y
, z that will do the job, but inselecting the product we will
try to be slightly above what wewant, knowing that the client
(55:09):
will most probably ask us toreduce costs, then we have to
present a budget because once wehave made a selection, we know
the quantities, we know whattype of fixture and we will ask
you please provide me with abudget, provide us with a
costing, so we can let theclient know this is what it will
(55:31):
cost.
When you give us a budget, wegenerally add in another 10%
just to have some negotiationspace, just for you to know.
It's important because we knowhow it goes.
And then sometimes there's acontractor in between and all
these kind of things.
So we need to manage thatprocess.
(55:51):
So when the budget is presentedto the client, which generally
is X factory, we put all thosedisclaimers, like you know,
without freight cost and withoutwhatever.
So that, no, withoutinstallation sometimes as well.
Sometimes they want it, butgenerally like that there's also
an element of lighting,controls and things like that.
(56:13):
So we present it to the clientand then when the client comes
back and says it's too expensive, you need to value engineer, we
will go through that budget andwe will focus on the high cost
item.
If I have three fittings of$2,000, there's no point in
really trying to value engineerthat.
(56:34):
But if I have 100 fittings thatare $1,000, then I can
definitely try and do something.
So I'll focus on thehigh-quantity budget items,
because that's how I can.
Potentially.
So if I have only four or fiveor just a few, normally we won't
(56:55):
focus on that in terms of valueengineering.
It will be the big ticket itemsbecause they have the biggest
impact in terms of valueengineering.
Now, if we can simplify it, wemay go back to you and say
listen, can you look at theprice again, because this one is
really tough for us.
We would like to keep it in,but if you can sort of reduce,
(57:15):
reduce it, that would be reallyhelpful.
Maybe you have a simplifiedalternative right?
In this case you are a brand.
If I go to Mondolucci, they mayhave a few alternative brands.
That is say, well, within thesame supplier, we may be able to
offer this or this right?
That's the way that would go.
So we'll try to stay within thepreferred supplier in this case
(57:39):
.
If it's still not possible,then we may need to look at
another alternative.
But we gradually work our waydown.
Yeah, so that's basically theprocess in which we try to work
it.
Sometimes we may be able toreview the design a bit.
(58:04):
So where we had linear lights,we may be able to achieve
something similar with wallwashers, for instance, for
instance.
So there may be design elementsin which we can simplify the
lighting without reallyaffecting the mood and ambience
and lighting effects too much.
So that will be another avenuein which we can try and reduce
(58:24):
cost, but it can be quitetedious.
Another point I would like tomention is that there are
clients sometimes that want Idon't know how many alternatives
.
So we do our specs and theywant two or three other options.
We try to avoid that becausethere's a lot of work, right,
but yeah, that's another part ofdoing the value.
(58:46):
Engineering is to look to allthat Hi.
Speaker 6 (58:49):
Martin.
Hi, my name is June and I workin marketing, so a lot of my job
is actually looking at thefinished projects and all of
that and try to guess thelighting design intentions
behind it.
It's a very hard work and I'veobviously lost half the time.
But one thing I know aboutlighting designers and people
who work in lighting is that yougo everywhere and you just see
(59:11):
the light everywhere.
Yesterday I was walking withPaley and he's just looking at
the lights, literally commentingon everything, so I was
wondering what is your thoughtson our lighting design?
It's just also to help meinform, understand your thought
process a bit more.
Let's just take that breakoutspace at the back as a canvas,
for example.
(59:33):
If you can just give us a littlepointer on what's great, what
can improve and what impressesyou about it, that would be
great.
I don't know if I'm startinganything.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Where do I start?
Dive into the table and learnfor a minute.
I have a very simple rule inthis kind of thing If I have not
designed the space right, it'svery hard for me to comment
right, because there may be somany reasons behind what is
there that I'm not aware of.
(01:00:07):
I can say, well, why did youchoose this?
I don't know all the backgroundreasons.
So, as a professional, alsorespecting another professional
that may have worked on this toachieve it, I generally stay
away from comments.
No, but it's very difficultbecause I may give you a comment
and say, yeah, but that wasbecause this or this or this, so
(01:00:27):
it's an endless story.
In that way, right, overall, Ifeel this place, I think you
have done a great job.
I was here at the opening whenyou guys opened this and I think
, compared to the many, manyfactories I visited, many HQs of
manufacturers visited, this onereally is somewhere at the top
in terms of the way it's notERCO but it's quite close to the
(01:00:54):
level of professionalism.
Everything looks clean, is nice, is organized, lighting levels
are all very nice.
The mood and ambience I thinkis befitting of what you're
trying to portray here as amanufacturer.
So I can only saycongratulations with this HQ,
because you really make a pointtowards many other manufacturers
(01:01:17):
around the world.
So, from my point of view, welldone.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Go do it.
Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (01:01:27):
Hi, my name is Long, from Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Let's get back to the Atlas bar that you showed,
because I really liked it and Ihave one question for you what
are the do's and don'ts inhospitality, especially bars?
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
The do's and don'ts.
Yeah, for lighting, right?
Good question, becausesometimes I think I just do it
because I know that's how I doit.
Thinking about why I actuallydo it is sometimes a bit more
difficult.
Well, an environment like a bar, like that it's about the
(01:02:06):
experience, right?
People go in.
It's not about the lighting,it's about people coming in,
socializing, feeling comfortableand not sitting there and
having a glary light.
The main thing that you do as adesigner is to try to put
yourself in the position of theend user.
I need to understand what is itthat's going on.
(01:02:27):
I can't design a space if Idon't know where the furniture
is, if I don't know what isactually taking place in that
space.
Like many engineers, they willjust put a uniform lighting grid
for downlights and they dim itup and down.
That's it.
Our lights are focusedspecifically to what is going on
(01:02:50):
in that space.
Understand the flexibility thatis needed when things change
right.
Understand that there is anearly day part of the experience
and a late night experience aswell.
When you go down there in theAtlas Bar, you'll notice that if
you come there at six, seveno'clock in the evening, the
(01:03:11):
lighting mood is totallydifferent than when you come
there at 10 o'clock in theevening.
Everything has adapted andchanged than when you come there
at 10 o'clock in the evening.
Everything has adapted andchanged because people have had
their meals.
They're now more into drinkingand socializing, and so it's
more about the visualcommunication in fact we had
with the Atlas bar when we didmock-ups.
(01:03:31):
We even had setups that howclose were seats compared to the
coffee table?
How was the relationship whenpeople were sitting down in
terms of communicating with eachother, in terms of where they
can put their glass or theirdrink?
So for us, one of the do's isto be involved in that process,
(01:03:56):
understanding how the space isgoing to be used and how your
lighting is going to contributeto the overall experience.
As I said before, you can'tdesign from behind your desk.
You can do a big part and themore experience you have, you
can do more remotely.
But being in there sitting in achair, understanding how
(01:04:17):
lighting impacts on how youcommunicate with your partner or
your friends or your businessrelationship that you have there
, that's really key to be ableto design properly.
It's also about, as I said, Idon't want to see the lighting.
It's about, for me, it's allabout bringing to life the
(01:04:40):
environment where you will beand where you will be using that
space.
It's not about the lighting.
The lighting will make ithappen, right, it's the glue
that sort of brings everythingtogether.
But in the end, people that arethere, they're not thinking all
the lighting this or that.
No, I'm comfortable.
(01:05:01):
I like chatting with you.
You know, it's like you havethis, this socializing aspect
going on, in which lightingcontributes in terms of mood and
ambiences, right.
So doing that means you alsotalk to an operator, the guys
that are running the bar.
They know also how they servepeople, what is going on.
(01:05:22):
They will tell you oh, I need abit more accentuation of this
area, or this is where we haveour displays.
Please bring that up a bit.
That is important to us.
So that discussion you're apart of the chain.
You need to work as a team.
You can't work on yourself, byyourself, on this kind of
(01:05:44):
project.
It's really key to immerseyourself in what's going to
happen and in collaborating withthe whole team to get the
result.
As the Atlas Bar, vietnam,singapore, go man, my name is.
Speaker 7 (01:05:57):
John from Singapore.
I heard your experiences atSheffield, having the LDOT
especially so with that in place, do you foresee the future of
your lighting design in your topprocess?
Will you be more towards thescience or towards art, because
it's project dependent here?
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, yeah, thank you .
I mean, one of the keyquestions sometimes is lighting
art or science, right?
And I think there's both.
Obviously, we are sort ofartists.
I have a picture that I usewhere there are scallops on the
wall and the artist is havingthat scallop and moving that
(01:06:39):
scallop as a painting around inthe space.
Because that's what we do.
We paint with light, in a way,because light produces visual
effects.
I can't see light here.
It's just because it reflectsof my hand that I know there's
light but I can't grab the light.
It's basically it becomesvisible once it reflects of
(01:07:01):
something, right, which meansthat scallops or lighting beams
become visible when they reflectof space.
So, playing around with that,how that interacts and
interferes in a way with space,that's the artistry, right.
But knowing how to producethose beams, what sort of
(01:07:25):
intensities, the color, that istechnology, that's the science,
right.
So that's the combination thatyou need to have as a lighting
designer Understandinginnovation, technology and
having the artistic knowledge toimplement it.
Now, on your question of IoT,it's going to be maybe the third
(01:07:54):
element that will come in right.
Science you could potentiallysay it's science, but to me,
data gathering is something ontop of it right.
We have always worked withoutthat.
Now certainly it becomes partof it.
Knowing how to deal with it issomething that we are still
(01:08:15):
exploring.
There's, of course, a lot ofand now, mind you, I haven't
even mentioned AI and chat, gptand all these kind of things,
because that's a whole new worldby itself, but we are using
these kind of things already AI,chat, gpt.
You know some of my blogs are Iwrite them myself but the
(01:08:37):
introduction I can say Ingmaruses AI or chat GPT to do a
small summary and introduction,because it saves time, you know,
you just input.
So now there's also lightingdesigners that start to use AI
to create concepts.
Now, where that's going, I don'tknow.
(01:08:57):
We were just at the beginningof that.
I think this question isprobably really interesting,
because even myself I'm not surewhether I want to dive into
that because I'm sort ofpost-career time in my life Do I
still want to go into that?
But I think it's very, veryinteresting and fascinating how
(01:09:21):
that impacts.
I mean, you can create.
I've seen conceptual designsthat are created by AI and I'm
like, all right, looks reallynice, Can it be realized?
I don't know right, butconceptual images, yes, could be
really interesting.
So I don't know yet.
I don't have the answer to thatbecause it's something that
(01:09:42):
really is fresh to many of us.
I have to say, in my 45 yearsthis has been an amazing journey
in lighting because when Istarted I had a fluorescent tube
and an incandescent lamp.
That's basically.
I didn't have a computer, right.
The only thing that we had whenI started in Philips was a huge
mainframe computer that was Idon't know the size of, I don't
(01:10:07):
know, but the room was probablyabout five by six meters,
totally air conditioned,humidity controlled and all that
.
I had to spend the wholeafternoon in doing punch cards
that I had to feed into thecomputer, go home to see the
calculation next year next day.
It will calculate overnight.
So I've come a long way fromthat level of technology to
(01:10:31):
where we are today, where wehave very innovative LED
solutions, now with data input,and now I think the next step is
with AI and what have you aswell.
So where we are going isdifficult to say, because you
can, with AI, you can createcontent.
That's the new element, I thinkfrom lighting design is content
(01:10:55):
creation, because lights notonly have all the colors of the
rainbow, you can get RGBW corechips nowadays that have
everything in one point.
It's not RGBW, no, it's like inone little chip you have
everything right so you cancreate.
So if you can drive that withdata or whatever input, you can
(01:11:18):
create the most interestingoutcomes.
One of the things we are doingwith nx mall, by the way.
We are creating some sort ofcontent driven lighting effect.
So, yeah, that's a new elementin which I'm not 100 sure how
much I'm going to dive into thatmyself, but it's certainly
something that you guys willhave to deal with in the future.
Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
Thank you again.
My question is regarding yourengagement and your skill set as
a designer.
Who engages your services firstand does it change part two?
Does it change region to region, like Annex Mall?
You mentioned Middle?
Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
East.
Who engages your services first, developer, architect, the
hotel gentleman I mentionedbefore.
Good question most of the timeI don't want to get on your bad
side right now, no, but most ofthe time we are engaged directly
(01:12:21):
by the client.
Right now, how do we get there?
That's varies.
I would say 80% of our jobs arepurely through referral and the
clients know us.
We are registered with all themajor hotel brands, for instance
, whether it's Marriott, hilton,accor, we are on their list of
(01:12:44):
approved consultants.
So there's a new project,they'll put our name forward.
It doesn't mean we get the jobbecause there's others as well,
right, but that comes throughthe front door.
Right, we get a call, we get anemail.
So 80% of our jobs at themoment that's how we get our
jobs.
I don't have to go for it.
We have established a level ofrecognition in the market and
(01:13:05):
standing that we are approacheddirectly as our that project.
You should go to KLD.
That's nice for us to have thatsort of status.
Then we have our relationshipwith architects, interior
designers, etc.
Same thing.
We have worked together.
They have a new project.
(01:13:25):
They're also sort of ourmarketing agents sometimes,
because we have had a very goodrelationship with them.
Hey, we have this new project.
You want to join us?
Same thing, right, so thatsometimes we are under the
architect or under the interiordesigner, depending.
Then same with with developers,but most of the time it's
(01:13:48):
through clients, directlydevelopers well, the developer,
sometimes the client also, right.
But then the actual marketing,business development,
approaching them.
That's only a small part of ourbusiness which I would say I
should do a bit more.
I will get more work, but I'mfeeling like it's okay right now
(01:14:11):
.
But if I would like to developthe business further, then if,
if I do very active marketingand business development because
of our standing and reputation,our track record, it should not
be too difficult to get morework as well.
But yeah, that's roughly how itworks for us.
Speaker 5 (01:14:30):
Just another question Is there any particular
lighting trends that you'recurrently excited about, any
upcoming ones?
Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
Lighting trends.
Yeah, I'm actually doing apresentation in Guangzhou about
the future of lighting design,and one of the things that are
happening now is about content.
Right, lighting is sort ofmoving away from your typical
(01:14:59):
fixture into being integrated inbuilding materials.
Right, so you will find carpetswith integrated lighting walls,
wall material, buildingmaterials with integrated
lighting, glass with integratedLED points.
So that is something, and allthat is dynamic, so you can
(01:15:19):
create all kinds of interestingcontents.
That's an important development.
So, interactivity with buildingmaterials.
We have a big trend regardingdark sky, being able to manage
light pollution and things likethat.
(01:15:40):
That's something that becomes abigger and bigger element.
And the third one that I wouldlike to mention is regarding
health and well-being, or evenbiophilic design.
It's like integrating thenature, the way our human body
works towards lighting.
(01:16:01):
I think that's also a veryimportant trend, where we look
at circadian rhythms and howlighting impacts on human
well-being.
I think these will be the threemain trends at the moment on
human well-being.
I think this will be the threemain trends at the moment.
I may have forgotten one or two, but yeah, to answer your
(01:16:23):
question, that will be threemain points that.
Speaker 4 (01:16:25):
I would like to mention Thank you.
I believe that is all thequestions, Martin.
Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
No, it's fantastic.
You've been great.
Thank you so much for yourquestions been great.
Thank you so much for yourquestions.
Thank you, martin, for sharing.
By the way, it doesn't stophere.
If they still have questions,they can channel it to you or
anybody else and you can let meknow.
Maybe I can still afterwards.
Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
There's an Excel spreadsheet already being
circulated.
No, no, no, no it's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
I mean literally, I'm not kidding.
If there's still issues orquestions, feel free to collate
them and I'll try to answer themin my own time.
Happy to do that.
Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
Crew if we could give an absolutely warm, massive
round of applause for Martin forsharing his insights, his
learnings, his experiences oversuch an impressive career Still
ongoing.
Obviously and there's a lot, asI said the lighting industry is
evolving and trending andchanging as we speak, so let's
(01:17:29):
give a warm round of applausefor Mr Martin.
Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
some insight or inspiration thatyou can take away or perhaps
apply.
If you enjoyed this episode, itis always appreciated if you
could take a moment to share thepodcast with your peers and
friends or leave a review onyour favorite podcast app.
Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at VLDcommunity
(01:18:08):
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Until next time.
How valuable lighting can be without being picked out
as the main element To me.
I know that without thelighting it would look like that
right, but that to me meansokay, I've done a good job.
I manage my clients'expectations when I present the
lighting design, so I need tomake sure that when I do a
concept, it's important to beable to create something that
(00:24):
when they come to site, they'relike ah yeah, that's what I
expected to see.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
when I present a design, I want to make sure that
what I present I can actuallyrealize welcome back to the
virtual lighting designcommunity podcast, a global
platform that empowers, inspires, inspires, educates and
connects the lighting designcommunity.
This podcast is brought to youby our premium supporters Aero
(00:50):
Hospitality Lighting, creativeLighting Asia, erco, the Signify
Lighting Academy and PhilixLighting.
In this episode, we bring youan insightful recording of
Martin Clausen's engagingpresentation at the UniOlympics
event hosted at UNIOS HQ inPerth, western Australia.
Martin shares his expertise byaddressing seven key questions
(01:10):
frequently asked in the lightingindustry, covering topics such
as the value of light,aesthetics, design direction,
client demands, service delivery, thought process, innovation
and client collaboration.
The presentation wraps up withan interactive Ask Me Anything
session, where the audience'swell-thought-out questions
contribute to a stimulatingdiscussion.
(01:31):
This episode not only providesvaluable insights, but also
offers a glimpse into Martin'sextensive 45 years of industry
experience, which he regularlyshares through his platform.
Lighttalk, available atlighttalkspace, offers a
treasure trove of resources,including Martin's blog, books,
masterclasses, mentoring andmore.
The presentation goes for justover an hour and is worth a
(01:52):
listen right to the end.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
We have an awesome opportunity to speak with a
remarkable individual.
We have Martin Klassen herewith us today, so he's an.
I don't even need to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
No, okay, let's go.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
A bit of background about Martin is he's an
award-winning lighting designer,he's a consultant, he's an
lecturer and he's a resourcespeaker with more than over 40
years' experience in lightingdesign, martin was the first
person deployed in Singapore toset up the project lighting
division for Philips, all theway back in 1988 to start up
(02:47):
their division for Asia Pacific.
Based all those years ago, hispassion for lighting design is
now through his own companycalled Class and Lighting Design
, where the head office is basedin.
Singapore.
We are very fortunate becauseMartin is actually based in
Perth nowadays and so he'sobviously based here, so he can
share some of his knowledge andhis learnings.
(03:07):
Over the years, many of hisdesigns have received national
and international lightingdesign awards, and he's widely
respected by the industry andhis peers.
Just a bit of a brief synopsisas well is he's a sought-after
impact speaker and he has spokenat the Professional Lighting
Design Convention, europe,europe, the ILD light fair in
(03:28):
the USA, the Guangzhou lightingexhibition, the Hong Kong
lighting fair, the light MiddleEast, the project lighting and
lux light in world bets in Asia,and it just keeps going enough
please help me.
Well, warmly welcome, mr martinclass.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Thank you all right, can you hear me?
Well?
Yeah, okay, cool.
Well, you said more than 40years.
In fact, this year is my 45thyear in the business, so time to
actually calm down a bit andrelax.
But thank you for theinvitation.
I've been here, basedpermanently now since COVID
(04:10):
times.
I don't regret it.
It's a fantastic time and placeto be.
I'll be sharing to you a fewthings, because what I would
like to do is share some thingsthat I've come across as a light
designer.
Obviously, I come to projectsites.
I've visited othermanufacturers not only you guys,
(04:30):
but I've met many of those overthe years.
So I want to share all that,what it also means to me,
through a number of questionsand at the end of it, I'll leave
the floor to you guys to ask meliterally anything you want.
There's nothing off the table.
You can ask me anything.
If I don't have the answer,I'll let you know honestly, but
(04:52):
in principle, you can askanything.
So first I would like to tellyou a little bit more so that
you get an even betterunderstanding from where I'm
coming from and what I'm doingnowadays.
First of all, as Paleymentioned, I have my class in
lighting design, which is mycore business head office in
Singapore.
(05:12):
We have a little office here.
We have an office in Shanghai,jakarta and nowadays also in
Portugal and Europe.
I've stepped a little bit awayfrom the main business.
I've stepped a little bit awayfrom the main business, trying
to focus more on the educationalthings that also are important
to me.
That's why I like doing thiskind of thing sharing my
(05:33):
knowledge.
There's no point for all theknowledge staying in here, so
it's nice if I can share it withyou guys, and that's why please
ask any questions afterwards,so at least you can make use of
that.
Ask any questions afterwards,so at least you can.
You can make use of that.
And this is the platform onwhich I'm now actually speaking
to you.
I have created, since many, manyyears, light talk.
(05:55):
I have a blog that maybe someof you may be following.
I actually brought some bookswith me and, if I'm correct,
those people who ask questionsget the book.
Is that something like that?
So there's quite a number ofbooks there, and that gives you
an insight on my life as alighting designer.
(06:16):
So, first of all, kld.
There's heaps.
You go to the website, you willfind a lot of projects, a lot in
hotel industry.
These are some of the thingsthat you can find here in Perth,
like Palace Hotel, majestyTheatre, things like Riverside
Drive, but sometimes we also godown south, like to Market River
, where we do wineries andthings like that.
(06:38):
So I'm really enjoying doingprojects in Western Australia,
where we also do hotels up inHeadland, karata, broome.
I've just started one downsouth as well, but doing a
winery has nice perks becausethen you can also do a bit of
wine drinking.
This was during actual testingof the lighting, by the way,
(06:59):
because we needed to see how itworks with real wine and how we
can appreciate the taste and thewhole experience.
If you go down to MargaretRiver this is Cape Mantel the
guy on the right, nicolas, isstill there.
You can say hello to him.
But yeah, this will actually bean IES award recently.
(07:20):
This project Good To the orderof the day.
So you know a bit what I'mdoing in that respect.
What I wanted to do is put anumber of questions of myself,
give you the feedback on how Ithink about these things and
what these values mean to me asa lighting designer, and at the
end I'll invite you to reallyask any questions that I may not
(07:41):
have touched upon, becausethere's so many things.
I'm just taking a snapshot hereof things, right?
So my first question is aboutthe value of light, and I'm
often asked what is the biggestinsight I have learned from
working in lighting designindustry over the many years
when I do my projects.
And the answer may possiblysurprise you, because the answer
(08:07):
is that for me, the bestcomment that I can get about a
lighting design that I've doneis actually no comments at all,
because if I don't get anycomments, it somehow means it's
totally and harmoniouslyintegrated in the rest, because
lighting doesn't exist by itself.
It's part of architecture, it'spart of interiors, it's part of
(08:27):
an experience.
Now, those of you from Singapore, they probably know the Atlas
Bar.
That, to me, is one of myfavorite projects, because even
when I enter it myself, I'm awedby the whole feeling, and it's
not just the lighting, though.
I have to say, if you knew theAtlas Bar before, when it was
(08:48):
still called the Divine Bar orsomething, with the little angel
going up the tower, that is ahuge difference.
But when you come in, you feelreally immersed in this ambience
and mood, and obviouslylighting plays a very big role
in this ambience and mood andobviously lighting plays a very
(09:08):
big role.
So what has this done?
The lighting?
It has been integrated, even ifyou look at this picture, even
though it may be a bit small foryou.
But if you look at the picture,lighting is really not
specifically present.
It's in there, but you can'treally see the light sources.
Maybe the pendants show off alittle bit.
But one of the things I think Ican show here Can you see my?
(09:29):
No, you can't see the Anyhow.
There's a suspended system, arig that hangs roughly at the
level of the mezzanine balconiesand it has been finished in a
(09:51):
copper polished feelingreflecting the environment.
So you actually don't reallysee, okay, and then, ah, okay,
cool, thank you, maybe youshould stay here, but anyhow,
you see this structure here,right, that is suspended from
(10:12):
the ceiling.
It's suspended from four pointsonly.
So you can imagine thestructural Too difficult word
the technical prowess that wentinto designing that and making
sure it's properly suspended.
But you can hardly see it andthat was key in the whole design
(10:34):
trying to make the lightdisappear and really bring out
the interiors.
So there's, okay, the covelightings I think you can all
imagine, but bringing out thesedecorative paintings in the
ceiling by soft washing them.
We had to really test all thatright.
It was really important to makesure it comes out.
It's not just, oh, we put itthere, no, we actually did
(10:58):
visual mock-ups on site to makesure.
Even from this structure that'spending, we have like a 90
degree angle from about threemeters.
This way, three meters this wayfabricated, suspended and
tested to make sure that thelights are in here.
You can see those little blackpoints here.
These are remote controlledlights.
That means they can actuallytake away the furniture and use
(11:22):
the space as a function space.
So that means that if there's adifferent setup, you want to
change the lighting.
So rather than to climb up aladder because this is about
four or five meters high so it'snot easy to to adjust with your
hands.
So that was done with remotecontrol lighting.
We have different settings toto account for that.
But there's little lightsincluded in here.
(11:47):
If you look at it, it's all verynicely and softly integrated
and to me that was key togetting this as a harmonious
lighting.
And when people come in theylook at the totality.
They don't say, oh, thelighting is beautiful.
Nobody really says the lightingis beautiful.
It's more like, oh, it's thespace and if?
If you've been in there, you'llknow what I mean, right?
(12:08):
So, yeah, that's basically tome how valuable lighting can be
without being picked out as themain element To me.
I know that without thelighting it would look like that
, right, but that to me meansokay, I've done a good job.
Now, if we talk about aestheticsand design direction, what has
(12:33):
lighting design?
How does it impact in project?
How can you make lightingdesign impact?
What do you do?
How do you get it to sort ofstand out?
Because we have all standardsolutions, but in order to
create something memorable,sometimes you need to think out
(12:56):
of the box, right, and that issomething that you need to dare,
because you can take a provenrecipe in terms of lighting just
downlights or wall washers butdoing something that's not
really done before, or do it abit differently, is something
that also takes guts, but alsotakes the necessary knowledge in
(13:21):
terms of being able to educateyour client on how to do that,
because you may want to dosomething, but if the client
can't follow you and doesn'tunderstand why you want to do it
, then you will have a difficultproposition.
So this is our Nera Hotel inXitang, just outside Shanghai.
Xitang is, by the way, whereMission Impossible 3 was filmed,
(13:44):
where Tom Cruise runs over theroofs and along the water town.
That's where this is, justoutside.
So this narrow hotel has acourtyard right here with water
body.
So there's no lighting in here.
Everything is reflected in thewater body.
(14:04):
So that's also a verypurposeful decision not to put
any lights in the water but usethat water surface to extend the
lighting and lighting effects.
So you can see it's allreflected there is.
So it's a modern architecturewith a traditional Chinese
pavilion in the middle, but youcan see everything is reflected.
(14:27):
So it's important to understandhow the architectural and the
rest work together.
But what we did you see here abit of blue what we have done in
this project as a dare to bedifferent thing, is a light show
, and the light show is done byusing the public areas.
(14:47):
So we've got like the receptionbar here, this lobby entrance.
Here there's a library, there'sa tea house and behind is a
restaurant and and another bar.
All these are on a and anotherbar.
All these are on a.
All the core chart facing areashave colored lighting, but they
(15:17):
only come on at a certain time,like every half hour, I think.
The current program is forabout five to ten minutes and
lights will change.
So you can see, here it's blue,then it becomes red and
sometimes the light moves, butit's not very fast thing.
It's a very soft movingexperience.
So when you're in the bar, inthe restaurant, suddenly say oh,
something is happening and youcan see how that suddenly
(15:37):
impacts and people stand stilland they look and, oh, that's
nice, but it's not disruptive asbeing a, that's nice, but it's
not disruptive as being a verypompous light show, but it's
something very soft in thebackground.
And now this hotel is used byarchitects, designers.
They come there for study tours, apparently I've been told nice
(15:57):
to know but but it's the designprinciples that we have applied
in this hotel are now used formany designers, specifically
architects and interiordesigners, to show them how
light and architecture can beintegrated together.
The colors are very warm.
It's really nice.
What we also found that incountries like China they are a
(16:21):
bit more daring, right?
So if you have ideas on whatyou could do, you also need a
client that is willing toexperiment.
I find it in Australia a bitmore difficult.
They're very this way here,right, if you go to countries in
Asia possibly also becauserules are maybe a bit less
(16:41):
followed I don't know how to saythat nicely you can do more
things right.
They're willing to experiment.
Here.
Everything has to comply withthis, comply with that, right.
But in Asia, and Chinaspecifically, I find the clients
very willing to experiment anddo things like this.
(17:02):
So that's one of theexperiences that I feel you need
to explore and sometimes pushthe envelope a little bit.
And that's also where you needyour relationship with you guys,
because I may have it in here,but I also need to be able to
talk to people like yourselfthat know what you can do with
(17:26):
your products, to see how we canmanage to do this.
So that's an important messagethat I would like to share Now.
Another one is differences inclient demands.
We have clients from all overthe world that have different
ways of dealing, different waysof dealing right.
(17:49):
So this is very much about whatis important to a client
depending on where you are.
In Australia, my clients aredifferent than when I'm in China
, and I reference a lot to Chinabecause we do a lot of jobs
also in China, india, middleEast, but I can now reference it
also very well with what we dohere in Australia.
So when I focus on the projectshere and in Asia, what I found
(18:12):
the main difference is basicallyquality versus quantity.
In China, every dollar counts Iknow here as well but it's
different In China, it'sliterally every dollar, right
here.
Yes, of course we want to bebudget, but a spec is a spec
(18:36):
most of the time in Australiaand a lot of the clients, if I
don't sign off, they don't signoff.
Right, we are currently workingwith NX here in Perth.
Right, that's a Lendlease.
No, is it Lendlease Anyhow?
One of those, but very strict,and they definitely if I don't
(18:59):
sign off on the project, theydon't take the responsibility of
signing off.
In China, asia, it's not thesame.
If I don't sign off, they don'ttake the responsibility of
signing off In China.
Asia is not the same If I don'tsign off, they don't care,
right?
I mean I'm saying that a bitexaggerated, but that's really
the case.
So, for instance, here this isthe Hong Kong Jockey Club that
(19:19):
chandelier.
You wouldn't be able to seewhether it's crystal or just
cheap glass, right, but there'sa hell of a difference in price.
If you're in China, I can betyou that's either plastic or
very, very cheap glass, right?
In this case it was a bitdifferent.
(19:40):
There was actually one of thosereal chandelier makers like it
was Preciosa or Lasvit or someof those people.
So that cost a lot of money.
But most of the time these kindof things in China are
reproductions, cheap copies,right, and they save a lot of
money.
(20:00):
Now I can push it, say, well, Ican't accept it, but how strong
is that?
That would be more the interiordesigner or the architect who
needs to come in tandem with meto say, well, listen, the
sparkle is not there if youdon't have extra crystal glass,
right.
So that's the one of the keyelements that we have to work
(20:22):
with continuously.
Sometimes it's also called valueengineering I'm sure you have
heard that word as well whereyou start here and then you have
to end up somewhere herebecause they don't have that
sort of budget now.
Tip, or just secret sharing.
If we want to end up here, wesometimes propose here, right.
(20:47):
So we may know that the clientonly has this sort of budget.
But in true Asian fashion, if Ipropose something here.
I'll end up here anyhow.
So I may as well propose herethat when I got through my
negotiations and valueengineering, I roughly arrived
(21:09):
where I want to be.
So what do I do?
I add in a few lighting pointsthat I know I can get rid of
later on, don't tell.
But that's a way to somehowachieve where you want to be,
because you know that very often.
But even here in Australia,there's also a lot of value
(21:29):
engineering going on.
But in China, in Asia, it'svery strong.
So you need to be prepared Evenfor our own fee negotiations.
If I want to have 100 as fee, Ineed to propose 120.
Because I will need tonegotiate, so knowing that.
But it finds its way in ourlighting design as well.
(21:51):
So sometimes we propose someextra downlights, some nice to
have, but not critical.
That's how we can managesometimes.
The cost-quality relationshipyeah, so that's the cost versus
quantity and quality.
Now service delivery.
(22:11):
I mentioned to you before whenI was talking, before I started.
Is that service is reallyimportant.
Right, when we deliver ourprojects, we really need to have
a very good relationship withthe suppliers and the
manufacturers.
So what are some of the keyissues that we face when we're
delivering our services.
(22:32):
Well, I think quality controland speed of delivery is part of
it.
I just mentioned valueengineering.
This needs an ongoing discussionwith the specified products
that we have in mind.
In this case.
We are talking to you, right?
So, if I have specified acertain level, sometimes we can
(22:58):
engineer the light, the products, to a slightly lower cost by
just simplifying it.
I don't know we haven't gone tothat extent yet with you, but
I've had projects where Ispecified a certain brand.
Let's say the fitting was $300and the client said, sorry, I
only have $200.
(23:18):
So rather than to go to analternative, I would go back to
the manufacturer and listen,they only have $200 for this.
Can we try and maybe simplifythe product or use, whatever it
is, maybe a simpler core element?
I know most of the products areoff the shelf and regularly
manufactured, but sometimesthere's an opportunity to
(23:42):
simplify the product so that youcan still be the one that
supplies, right?
So I think that's important tounderstand that we not
necessarily need to jumpstraight away to another brand
If we like what the product does.
Sometimes it can be simplifiedto still meet.
We also look at potentiallyreducing the quantities, right?
(24:05):
So not necessarily reducing thequality, but reducing the
quantities.
So taking out the number offlights, and then there is the
speed of delivery that you know,technically our clients always
wanted.
Yesterday I think that's commonthroughout the world and
(24:27):
specifically in Asia I foundthat they and then you deliver
it and then you don't hearanything for a month.
So they want it very fast andthen nothing happens.
But that balance and findingthe way to deliver the service
is really quite important.
(24:50):
What you see here in thispicture is a project meeting
somewhere in China.
In this case it was in Yangshuoin the Guilin Mountains.
It was freezing cold.
It was January, I think.
It was zero degrees outside andwe still had a meeting, but
there's no heating.
So, as you can see, there'ssome braze, some coals and we
(25:15):
were frying bananas on that aswell.
But that was our meeting.
But that also shows the sort ofhow do you explain that?
The relationship with theclient that we're still coming
there, we're still doing it.
So your delivery is not onlyhaving a meeting in a
(25:35):
comfortable hotel room, but it'salso sometimes going to site
under the circumstances that arenot always pleasant.
You see people wearing jacketsand overcoats and it was really
cold, it was probably aboutthree or four degrees in there
but we still have our meetingand we try to walk ourselves
through whatever issues therewere on hand.
(25:57):
Yeah, I mean, one time I metKate Mantel having a drink with
a glass of wine, but the otherday I may be like this in a
meeting, so there's a lot ofcontrast.
But what I'm trying to say isservicing your client for us is
really important, and thatdoesn't come just with us being
(26:18):
there.
It also comes with your supportin the background, knowing that
you have our backs when wespecify the products.
Now the thought process is aboutwhat makes lighting a good
design and again I'm trying to,because of my experience
throughout Asia, middle East,etc.
(26:40):
I'm trying to give you a bit ofa perspective between Eastern
and Western values, and I'musing here NX Mall, which you
can go and have a look at intown.
I'm actually not sure this isyour lighting, isn't it?
Isn't that yours?
Ooh Lucky.
So one of the key things that Iwant to say is that lighting
(27:06):
design, the concept is as goodas the final implementation.
I can have beautiful renders, Ican do beautiful concepts, but
if it doesn't look good in theend, all that is not worth a lot
, Right?
So what I need to do is to makesure that I manage my clients
expectations when I present thelighting design.
(27:28):
So I need to make sure thatwhen I do a concepts on the
right hand it's a render whichwe created out of a 3d model.
On the left is what it becamein the end.
Now, it's fairly close.
I have it in this way.
There's another color here.
It's important, close.
I have it in this way.
There's another color here.
It's important to be able tocreate something that when they
(27:50):
come to site, they're like ahyeah, that's what I expected to
see, right?
And in this case, this is whathappened.
Client was very happy, signedoff, paid off, was all good.
Now we're doing NX Mall, theinteriors and the St George's
Terrace facade.
This is the Hay Street facade.
But it's really important to beas realistic as possible and
(28:14):
manage the client's expectationin terms of what it is they're
going to get.
There's no point in making.
I've been to China and some ofyou may have seen it as well.
I see renders and when I seethe renders, I said no way right
, because I know from experiencethat when I see that render,
there's no way they're gonna beable to do that in reality.
(28:34):
Now the client may fall for itoh beautiful, it's nice and then
they come to site and say isthat it?
Yeah, so that's important, Ithink, to me.
When I present a design, I wantto make sure that what I
present I can actually realize,and that again also relates back
(28:55):
to how we develop therelationship between you guys
and ourselves making sure thatwe can deliver also on
performance, making sure that wecan deliver also on performance
.
Innovation.
Now, this relates back also toIoT, because there's a lot of
things happening in our world.
Technology advances very, veryfast and for us, as for you,
(29:17):
it's not easy to keep up witheverything, right.
So that's where our line designof things also comes in, but
it's trying to understand what'sgoing on and how do we reflect
that in a project.
So what I'm trying to say isthat integrating innovation is,
in a way, a progress.
It's important to do that, andthis picture shows that it used
(29:46):
to be all about oil and thingslike that.
That was the main commoditythat drives the whole economy.
Nowadays it's data, and thatbrings it closer to our turf,
because data collection nowhappens in all the spaces.
You have sensors everywhere andwhat is happening is that the
light fitting of the future well, not so far future.
Some of them, it's already here.
It's a bit like your mobilephone.
(30:09):
Let's say, 15, 20 years agoyour mobile phone was only used
to text message and call.
Who still use their mobilephone to do that?
Your mobile phone ispredominantly a data bank that
you use to take pictures, to doyour banking.
Everything goes through yourmobile phone.
(30:29):
There's hundreds of apps whichare not much related to phones.
You FaceTime, maybe with eachother and things like that.
So what is happening with lightfitting is pretty much similar.
So there's a lot of thingsgoing into a light fitting, that
in the fitting of the future.
I predict that 80% of the lightfitting is all about data and
(30:53):
had nothing to do with lighting.
That means it's an IP point, itis an internet point.
There will be GPS positioningto that.
You can monitor what'shappening.
You get air qualitymeasurements, you can get sound
(31:17):
measurements, you gettemperature, humidity, presence
you name it.
All these kind of things can beregistered to a simple sensors.
There are sensors that can dothree or four things in one tiny
little sensor, right.
So because lighting is alsopresent in each and every space,
lighting is the idealinfrastructure to include data,
(31:42):
and that's what we see happeningmore and more Now.
The sensor, or the datacollecting point, is outside the
lighting point most of the time, but it's only very short until
that starts to be integrated,and it's already started to be
integrated in lighting.
Some lighting manufacturersprovide already the option to
(32:04):
include a sensor in their lightswhich can do some of these
functions.
Then it's not about what tomeasure, but what you do with
the data.
So you can collect any of thisinformation, but what do you do
with it?
So then you need to convertthis data information into
useful content creation.
(32:27):
Let's say that way in our casefor lighting.
But because lighting is ourturf as lighting designer, we
need to somehow stay in controlof that lighting point and not
the data people.
They say, oh, I need one pointhere, otherwise my Wi-Fi
coverage is not good, or I needthis for my Bluetooth, this and
(32:47):
that, whatever.
So we are trying to promote forus as lighting designers to at
least remain in control of whathappened with the lighting point
, even as the data contentbecomes bigger and bigger.
Now I don't know how far youare as Unios in terms of
integrating smart components,data collection, etc.
(33:10):
But if and when you do this issomething that needs very
careful consideration, also whenyou message that to your end
users and clients.
But yeah, it is very much aboutthat.
I also mentioned here socialmedia, in a way, because
nowadays, when we finish aproject or when we design a
(33:32):
project, it's also how is itgoing to look on Facebook?
How is it going to look onInstagram, right?
We even have projects wherepeople on social media commented
on the lighting and then westarted to adjust the lighting,
right.
This is an interesting thing,because we all are on our little
(33:52):
mobile phone and trying tocheck out what's happening on
social media to check out what'shappening on social media.
But it has a big influence onlighting design as well, because
we need to create those moneyshots that people like to take
pictures with, right.
So that's an important part ondoing a lighting design nowadays
as well, thinking about howthat can be promoted to the
(34:17):
social media.
Finally, before we go to ask meanything, something about client
collaboration, because we getpresented quite a lot of
projects and every time I haveto think shall we do it?
Shall we not do it?
So if you know the client,obviously no, no issue.
(34:38):
But sometimes we don't know theclient.
Sometimes it looks good and youonly know afterwards whether
you had a good relationship witha client or not.
So to me it's all about trustand respect.
I think if a client can respectyou as a lighting designer, can
trust you to do your job, thenyou have a good relationship.
(35:00):
Because I've had too often thatthey don't really.
They want you there just to beable to point their finger, but
they don't really always trustyou or they want to do their own
thing.
So developing a relationshipwith the client to us is key.
Finding or creating anenvironment in which you feel
(35:23):
that they trust you is also very, very important, right, and
that they respect your decision,respect your recommendations.
Now, that is a two-way street,because if they say, wow, yeah,
but it's nice what you want todo, martin, but um, I don't have
that sort of money to do that,or can we do it this way?
So it's a two-way street.
And when you show understandingfor where they are, but you can
(35:45):
also educate them at the sametime why you want to do
something, making sense for themto maybe spend the money to do
something.
That's where you create areally nice relationship.
And this is one of my favoritephotos, where my client really
hugs me at the end of the grandopening to thank me for what we
have done.
(36:06):
And, as I said at the bottom,as a bonus, if you have a happy
client, I can tell you theydon't have any hesitation to pay
you.
So developing that trust andrespectful relationship I think
is key, but you have to work onit and you have to really be
open.
It's not like my way or thehighway.
It is something that is atwo-way street that you develop
(36:29):
this particular client I'm doingtwo more hotels with him now.
He's become a really goodfriend, but it's the
relationship that we havedeveloped and his trust in that
what I'm giving him is the bestvalue for money.
So, having said that, I wouldsay let's take questions from
you, because otherwise I can geton and on.
(36:50):
There's so many things you maywant to ask me about lighting
design, so please feel free.
Anything you want to ask me,I'm happy to take it.
Thank you, applause, applauseapplause.
Speaker 3 (37:11):
Thanks, martin, that was amazing.
Obviously we've met before andpart of my role is between
western and eastern design andculture, working across
Singapore and Thailand with mycolleague John, who's here today
as well.
I really like your contrastsand comments between the two
sides of the world.
What would be your opinion ofUnios just in your experience
(37:32):
with us so far?
That makes us stand out interms of what we offer, whether
it's product or service, and thereason I ask is we see a lot of
comparison to all sorts ofbrands, everything from very low
market of names I've neverheard of to some of the most
elite and the best in the game.
(37:52):
What would you say is maybe oneunique thing that we offer that
you've seen so far.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'm a bit prejudiced because I know Paley for quite a
while, so that relationship isalready important.
To be honest, no, no, but as Imentioned, the relationship
knowing that me or my team cancall you right, like listen, we
have specified your product.
We really like your product.
It gives good value for money,right, like listen, we have
specified your product.
We really like your product.
It gives good value for money,right, and I think where you are
(38:23):
with your price point is alsoquite competitive.
So I think that's an importantthing.
So you don't start off like thehigh Iguzini Erko level.
You're, if I'm not mistaken, abit more competitive, so that
helps in the environment wherewe live in today, in the
economical climate.
But, as I mentioned before, theservice that you provide and
(38:47):
the peace of mind that you giveus is, to me, really important.
Knowing that I can call PayDeeor yourself at any time if I
have an issue, not only me butalso my team, is something
that's really important, becausesome of the lower brands, very
cheap ones, whether from China,india, whatever, wherever they
would be you can try and callthem, but most of the time
(39:08):
there's nobody home, right?
Even the so-called warrantythat they would provide.
You ask five years warranty,sometimes even 10 years warranty
.
We may ask you want to try withthe cheaper brands?
They will say yes, but ifthere's an issue with warranty,
try to reach them Right.
So that is a relationship that'sbeing built up.
(39:32):
You follow through on that aswell.
So it's not just something thatwe talk about, it's something
that in real life, when projectscome to life and we experience
the relationship, the workingrelationship with you, which
makes us work with you Right Tome and of course you're not the
(39:53):
only one Right.
But maintaining that level ofsupport and interest and
willingness to support I thinkis key.
You have already very goodproducts.
We can have an ongoingdiscussion about how we can
improve products further, if youwant any input in that.
(40:14):
I'm doing that sometimes withPaley.
If we have some issues likelike oh, can we do this or that?
That's that's on top, is theicing on the cream or the cherry
on the cream, whateverexpression is.
But that's important as well.
But that relationship, that wefeel comfortable and know that
(40:36):
if we specify unios, they'll bethere when it matters.
Speaker 5 (40:40):
Hi Martin, thank you for such an insightful
presentation.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I'm quite passionate about lighting design as well,
so I have quite a few questions.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 6 (40:51):
What would you say is your most memorable project
that you've worked on?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
I think it's those projects where, well, probably
this one is certainly one of mymemorable projects because I got
basically a hug of the kind Idon't know how many of you have
ever had a hug from your client,but to me I haven't had a lot
of those, right, I mean they'renormally very respectful, but to
(41:20):
me I haven't had a lot of those.
I mean they're normally veryrespectful, but to give me a hug
, you know that's something, ittouches you because you can feel
the passion and their happinessabout what they have.
So, sittang, if you ever comearound there, please visit it.
I think also, the Atlas Bar inSingapore is one of those
(41:41):
projects when you come in andyou feel, ah, I really did a
nice job.
Right Closer to home, we justcompleted stage one of the
Headland Hotel, which was aproperty that just faces the
turtle breeding beach.
I don't know if those peopleknow Headland, but this is
(42:04):
called Centenary Beach orsomething like that, but there's
turtle breeding.
So the lighting that we neededto apply needed to all comply
with turtle breeding,environmental biodiversity, blah
, blah, blah all these thingswhat you need to apply.
But the client was also veryhow do you say that compliant in
(42:31):
helping it come to life.
They were supporting it eventhough it was way above the
budget that they had in mind.
They wanted to make a point,but when it was finished they
were so happy.
Even Rita Schiaffosi was thename of the tourism minister.
She came down as well.
She was invited.
They invited her because theyfelt this is something special.
(42:53):
So that project also has a bigmeaning for me because we
managed to contribute with thelighting also to doing it in the
right way, because there's alot of talk about dark sky and
light pollution and beingfriendly to natural habitat and
all that.
So that project really had aclient that get along, went
(43:17):
along with it, supported it ofcourse, uses it for marketing et
cetera.
But that also gave me a lot ofsatisfaction being able to do
that yeah.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
In your many years of experience so far, have you had
a, or what was the moment thatyou that was like, oh shit, like
and like in a during a project,and how did you overcome that?
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Where do I start?
My very first memory.
I've got quite a lot of them,but I'll just pick out a few,
because it's not always flowersand good endings.
One time and it's not alwayssince I'm the boss of the
(44:09):
company the bug starts with me,even though my staff may have
made a mistake.
But I remember one day that weselect and I'm talking about 20
years ago or something, or maybeeven more but we had selected a
light fitting from a catalogue,but it was somehow put into a
drawing in which we didn't readthe scale properly.
(44:30):
So the actual fitting, when itwas installed, looked so
minuscule compared to the actualdimensions, was installed,
looks so minuscule compared tothe actual dimensions that, yeah
, it was clearly a mistakebecause we hadn't properly
looked at the dimensions.
It looked odd.
Lighting, luckily, was okay,but what do you do as a lighting
(44:54):
designer when that happens?
Oh no, this is, this is how wewanted it to be right.
So, as a designer, you alwayshave a whole list of things that
you can go through, like whyit's not your fault, but we know
, of course, that we should havedone better.
Another thing that I want tohighlight is the difference in
(45:16):
culture and acceptance.
Like I did a project many, manyyears back in Pakistan and we
did an office lighting.
So if you follow standard rulesfor lighting levels in offers,
you talk about three to fivehundred lux or something for for
an office.
Right, so we went about it,designed beautiful lighting, we
(45:40):
achieved all this and then, whenit was in, well, did we get to
install it?
Yeah, we get to install it.
They said, well, it's way toobright.
And why was it too bright?
Because we didn't account forwhat they were used to work in
At that time.
If you go to offices in AsiaPacific in general, whether it's
(46:03):
India, Pakistan, some of theoffices they work with 50, 100
lux.
That's a luxury already forthem.
And then we came with like 300to 500 lux.
They said, no, no, no, no,there's not.
That's totally, totally wrong.
We should have designed maybeto 200 lux or something to
improve, but so their mind isnot set to that right.
(46:26):
So, yeah, you can explain whyit has to be 3 to 500 lux.
But that I found was a missedopportunity to educate the
client properly about wherethey're at, where they should be
, and maybe find a way, acompromise in between, In the
(46:47):
same way, like in Japan they'revery much used to having bare
fittings, so they feel that thatbrightness in an office works
well.
And then they complain thatthey don't have enough lighting
on their desk Because obviouslythere's hardly any optics if you
(47:07):
have a bare bulb.
So we designed optics to reallypush the light down so with
half the amount of light wecould have double the amount of
light on the desk.
Again they complained it's notbright.
Now it was not bright enoughBecause they were so used to.
(47:27):
They said, yeah, but that'slate, Now you can focus.
Yeah, but we Japanese we'redifferent, Our eyes are
different or whatever they weresaying, and it sounds strange,
but that's the sort of weirddiscussions you have sometimes.
So again, a sort of missedopportunity to communicate and
educate.
(47:49):
We shouldn't be designing frombehind our desk.
We need to be able to be at thelocation to understand how
people currently work and howyour design will impact them.
A lot of designers work frombehind their desk and never
actually go to the site wherelighting is being implemented.
So that's also a big lesson.
Nowadays it's very rare for meto take on a project if we can't
(48:14):
go to site, certainly becausewe do projects all over the
world.
Here in WA it's maybe easy.
You can easily go to site,certainly because we do projects
all over the world.
Here in WA it's maybe easy, youcan easily go to a project.
But if you have to go to Indiaor China or Middle East, it
takes something in extra costfor the client also for you to
go there.
In the same way, based on thatfirst story I told you, we
(48:37):
nowadays hardly ever specify aproduct if we haven't had it in
our hands and have been able toplay with it.
We don't.
That was one of the lessonsthat sort of triggered never
specify just from a catalogue,Just have it in your hands, play
with it, make sure that youunderstand it.
Speaker 7 (48:54):
Yeah, We'll come back to that.
Yes, sorry, john, it's you.
John, it's just based on whatyou were kind of just talking
about.
So when it comes to likeeducation on, you know, two big
things is obviously what youmentioned, like colour,
temperature and brightness,especially.
You know people have so manyvarying ideas of what that
(49:16):
specific person wants that maybe against all the science and
documentation and everything,and out there.
How do you go about?
Kind of obviously there's a allright, I'm not saying you know
one right way, one wrong way,but there is a kind of way you
probably should do things, justbased on you know the evidence
and things.
How do you go about educatingpeople and and then maybe them
(49:38):
saying, no, just do it the wrongway because that's what I like,
like the ones that you werejust talking about, do you ever
get to a point where you want tojust fuck it, go in there yeah,
you really want to go in theway, because there's a hundred
people and they're going to bein there for 10 hours a day and
you really want to be beneficialfor as many people as possible.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
So that's the sort of communication between you and
the client.
If you go in a meeting roomwith 20 different people, it's
very hard sometimes to getthrough right.
If I'm in China in a meeting,first of all I don't speak
Chinese a few words, but notreally and that's very
(50:20):
hierarchical.
So that means if I talk to oneperson, then that person needs
to get approved from the higherauthority and it's like all this
chain of command.
So the project manager will say, yeah, I agree, it will be good
.
And then the next person whichis higher up, because the boss
doesn't talk directly sometimes.
(50:40):
So they will come.
No, I don't agree.
So first of all, the director ofcommunication line with the
ultimate decision maker.
The more direct it is, thebetter it is to sort out things.
That as a general point.
Secondly, I have my own stylein how I like to design things.
(51:02):
So I may like 3,000 Kelvin,somebody else may like 4,000
Kelvin.
My reasoning for using 3,000 or2,700, 2,000, whatever it is
are my reasons from years ofexperience.
So it's about my ability tocommunicate, why I'm the
designer.
So you hired me as a designer,right?
(51:23):
So if you trust and respect me,that's what my recommendation
is based on my experience inwhether it's a hotel, whether
it's an office or a sportsfacility, whatever, I have my
experience and I find that thisworks best.
Does it mean so if the clientcomes up with, yeah, but I would
like to do this way, this way,what do you think?
(51:44):
Then I won't be on my highhorse saying no, no, no, I'm
doing it this way.
No, you have to listen to yourclient.
Number one prerequisite for adesigner is to be able to listen
right.
It's not about what I want,it's about understanding what
the client wants.
But with your experience, if hehas something that could work
(52:09):
as well, you can leave that asan option.
Say listen, your call.
My recommendation is this whatyou want is also possible.
It's not necessarily a badthing.
If it's a bad thing, I'll tellhim.
I say listen, no, that won'twork, because this, this, this,
always give a reason.
I can't just say no.
But if his option is also nicebut I feel not really what I
(52:30):
would do, but it's possible I'llleave him the option.
In the end, he is the client,he's the one that won, but I
have to explain and put it on aplatter to him.
Well, this is why I want to dothis.
This is what you want to do,what the plus and minus points
are, and then you're trying towork it out that way, right,
most of the time that works, butthe more interference there is
(52:53):
in terms of people involved,right, the more difficult it is
to achieve that.
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (53:01):
Hi, I'm Elaine from the Vietnam team.
So thank you for yourpresentation, martin.
I do have a question on thedifferences in client demand
when you mentioned about Asian,and in Western, when Asian all
about cost over quality.
So you mentioned aboutsimplifying products if needed
(53:22):
for cost efficiency.
I would love to hear from alighting designer expert about
what can be compromised for costefficiency, if it's possible.
Speaker 1 (53:37):
Of course, it's very project dependent.
Value engineering is a verytedious job, right?
So when?
Let me just lead you throughthe process, maybe that will
help you.
So when we design, we generallyspecify products that we are
familiar with, that we know theperformance, we know the quality
(54:00):
, we know the end result, weknow what it will give us.
As I mentioned before, becausewe know the tendency to value
engineer, we may select theslightly higher option when we
do a design, possibly even amore expensive brand, knowing
(54:20):
that we have a backup brand ifnecessary, right?
It's just to understand,because sometimes, when you ask
the client for a budget, most ofthe time we said no, we don't
have a budget, right.
But when you present a budget,it's too much, right.
So that's a typical way how itgoes.
So, knowing that we try toestablish the performance and
(54:47):
quality level that we want interms of the lighting effects,
the mood, ambience, et cetera,which means we have product X, y
, z that will do the job, but inselecting the product we will
try to be slightly above what wewant, knowing that the client
(55:09):
will most probably ask us toreduce costs, then we have to
present a budget because once wehave made a selection, we know
the quantities, we know whattype of fixture and we will ask
you please provide me with abudget, provide us with a
costing, so we can let theclient know this is what it will
(55:31):
cost.
When you give us a budget, wegenerally add in another 10%
just to have some negotiationspace, just for you to know.
It's important because we knowhow it goes.
And then sometimes there's acontractor in between and all
these kind of things.
So we need to manage thatprocess.
(55:51):
So when the budget is presentedto the client, which generally
is X factory, we put all thosedisclaimers, like you know,
without freight cost and withoutwhatever.
So that, no, withoutinstallation sometimes as well.
Sometimes they want it, butgenerally like that there's also
an element of lighting,controls and things like that.
(56:13):
So we present it to the clientand then when the client comes
back and says it's too expensive, you need to value engineer, we
will go through that budget andwe will focus on the high cost
item.
If I have three fittings of$2,000, there's no point in
really trying to value engineerthat.
(56:34):
But if I have 100 fittings thatare $1,000, then I can
definitely try and do something.
So I'll focus on thehigh-quantity budget items,
because that's how I can.
Potentially.
So if I have only four or fiveor just a few, normally we won't
(56:55):
focus on that in terms of valueengineering.
It will be the big ticket itemsbecause they have the biggest
impact in terms of valueengineering.
Now, if we can simplify it, wemay go back to you and say
listen, can you look at theprice again, because this one is
really tough for us.
We would like to keep it in,but if you can sort of reduce,
(57:15):
reduce it, that would be reallyhelpful.
Maybe you have a simplifiedalternative right?
In this case you are a brand.
If I go to Mondolucci, they mayhave a few alternative brands.
That is say, well, within thesame supplier, we may be able to
offer this or this right?
That's the way that would go.
So we'll try to stay within thepreferred supplier in this case
(57:39):
.
If it's still not possible,then we may need to look at
another alternative.
But we gradually work our waydown.
Yeah, so that's basically theprocess in which we try to work
it.
Sometimes we may be able toreview the design a bit.
(58:04):
So where we had linear lights,we may be able to achieve
something similar with wallwashers, for instance, for
instance.
So there may be design elementsin which we can simplify the
lighting without reallyaffecting the mood and ambience
and lighting effects too much.
So that will be another avenuein which we can try and reduce
(58:24):
cost, but it can be quitetedious.
Another point I would like tomention is that there are
clients sometimes that want Idon't know how many alternatives
.
So we do our specs and theywant two or three other options.
We try to avoid that becausethere's a lot of work, right,
but yeah, that's another part ofdoing the value.
(58:46):
Engineering is to look to allthat Hi.
Speaker 6 (58:49):
Martin.
Hi, my name is June and I workin marketing, so a lot of my job
is actually looking at thefinished projects and all of
that and try to guess thelighting design intentions
behind it.
It's a very hard work and I'veobviously lost half the time.
But one thing I know aboutlighting designers and people
who work in lighting is that yougo everywhere and you just see
(59:11):
the light everywhere.
Yesterday I was walking withPaley and he's just looking at
the lights, literally commentingon everything, so I was
wondering what is your thoughtson our lighting design?
It's just also to help meinform, understand your thought
process a bit more.
Let's just take that breakoutspace at the back as a canvas,
for example.
(59:33):
If you can just give us a littlepointer on what's great, what
can improve and what impressesyou about it, that would be
great.
I don't know if I'm startinganything.
Speaker 1 (59:46):
Where do I start?
Dive into the table and learnfor a minute.
I have a very simple rule inthis kind of thing If I have not
designed the space right, it'svery hard for me to comment
right, because there may be somany reasons behind what is
there that I'm not aware of.
(01:00:07):
I can say, well, why did youchoose this?
I don't know all the backgroundreasons.
So, as a professional, alsorespecting another professional
that may have worked on this toachieve it, I generally stay
away from comments.
No, but it's very difficultbecause I may give you a comment
and say, yeah, but that wasbecause this or this or this, so
(01:00:27):
it's an endless story.
In that way, right, overall, Ifeel this place, I think you
have done a great job.
I was here at the opening whenyou guys opened this and I think
, compared to the many, manyfactories I visited, many HQs of
manufacturers visited, this onereally is somewhere at the top
in terms of the way it's notERCO but it's quite close to the
(01:00:54):
level of professionalism.
Everything looks clean, is nice, is organized, lighting levels
are all very nice.
The mood and ambience I thinkis befitting of what you're
trying to portray here as amanufacturer.
So I can only saycongratulations with this HQ,
because you really make a pointtowards many other manufacturers
(01:01:17):
around the world.
So, from my point of view, welldone.
Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Go do it.
Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 7 (01:01:27):
Hi, my name is Long, from Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Let's get back to the Atlas bar that you showed,
because I really liked it and Ihave one question for you what
are the do's and don'ts inhospitality, especially bars?
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
The do's and don'ts.
Yeah, for lighting, right?
Good question, becausesometimes I think I just do it
because I know that's how I doit.
Thinking about why I actuallydo it is sometimes a bit more
difficult.
Well, an environment like a bar, like that it's about the
(01:02:06):
experience, right?
People go in.
It's not about the lighting,it's about people coming in,
socializing, feeling comfortableand not sitting there and
having a glary light.
The main thing that you do as adesigner is to try to put
yourself in the position of theend user.
I need to understand what is itthat's going on.
(01:02:27):
I can't design a space if Idon't know where the furniture
is, if I don't know what isactually taking place in that
space.
Like many engineers, they willjust put a uniform lighting grid
for downlights and they dim itup and down.
That's it.
Our lights are focusedspecifically to what is going on
(01:02:50):
in that space.
Understand the flexibility thatis needed when things change
right.
Understand that there is anearly day part of the experience
and a late night experience aswell.
When you go down there in theAtlas Bar, you'll notice that if
you come there at six, seveno'clock in the evening, the
(01:03:11):
lighting mood is totallydifferent than when you come
there at 10 o'clock in theevening.
Everything has adapted andchanged than when you come there
at 10 o'clock in the evening.
Everything has adapted andchanged because people have had
their meals.
They're now more into drinkingand socializing, and so it's
more about the visualcommunication in fact we had
with the Atlas bar when we didmock-ups.
(01:03:31):
We even had setups that howclose were seats compared to the
coffee table?
How was the relationship whenpeople were sitting down in
terms of communicating with eachother, in terms of where they
can put their glass or theirdrink?
So for us, one of the do's isto be involved in that process,
(01:03:56):
understanding how the space isgoing to be used and how your
lighting is going to contributeto the overall experience.
As I said before, you can'tdesign from behind your desk.
You can do a big part and themore experience you have, you
can do more remotely.
But being in there sitting in achair, understanding how
(01:04:17):
lighting impacts on how youcommunicate with your partner or
your friends or your businessrelationship that you have there
, that's really key to be ableto design properly.
It's also about, as I said, Idon't want to see the lighting.
It's about, for me, it's allabout bringing to life the
(01:04:40):
environment where you will beand where you will be using that
space.
It's not about the lighting.
The lighting will make ithappen, right, it's the glue
that sort of brings everythingtogether.
But in the end, people that arethere, they're not thinking all
the lighting this or that.
No, I'm comfortable.
(01:05:01):
I like chatting with you.
You know, it's like you havethis, this socializing aspect
going on, in which lightingcontributes in terms of mood and
ambiences, right.
So doing that means you alsotalk to an operator, the guys
that are running the bar.
They know also how they servepeople, what is going on.
(01:05:22):
They will tell you oh, I need abit more accentuation of this
area, or this is where we haveour displays.
Please bring that up a bit.
That is important to us.
So that discussion you're apart of the chain.
You need to work as a team.
You can't work on yourself, byyourself, on this kind of
(01:05:44):
project.
It's really key to immerseyourself in what's going to
happen and in collaborating withthe whole team to get the
result.
As the Atlas Bar, vietnam,singapore, go man, my name is.
Speaker 7 (01:05:57):
John from Singapore.
I heard your experiences atSheffield, having the LDOT
especially so with that in place, do you foresee the future of
your lighting design in your topprocess?
Will you be more towards thescience or towards art, because
it's project dependent here?
Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, yeah, thank you .
I mean, one of the keyquestions sometimes is lighting
art or science, right?
And I think there's both.
Obviously, we are sort ofartists.
I have a picture that I usewhere there are scallops on the
wall and the artist is havingthat scallop and moving that
(01:06:39):
scallop as a painting around inthe space.
Because that's what we do.
We paint with light, in a way,because light produces visual
effects.
I can't see light here.
It's just because it reflectsof my hand that I know there's
light but I can't grab the light.
It's basically it becomesvisible once it reflects of
(01:07:01):
something, right, which meansthat scallops or lighting beams
become visible when they reflectof space.
So, playing around with that,how that interacts and
interferes in a way with space,that's the artistry, right.
But knowing how to producethose beams, what sort of
(01:07:25):
intensities, the color, that istechnology, that's the science,
right.
So that's the combination thatyou need to have as a lighting
designer Understandinginnovation, technology and
having the artistic knowledge toimplement it.
Now, on your question of IoT,it's going to be maybe the third
(01:07:54):
element that will come in right.
Science you could potentiallysay it's science, but to me,
data gathering is something ontop of it right.
We have always worked withoutthat.
Now certainly it becomes partof it.
Knowing how to deal with it issomething that we are still
(01:08:15):
exploring.
There's, of course, a lot ofand now, mind you, I haven't
even mentioned AI and chat, gptand all these kind of things,
because that's a whole new worldby itself, but we are using
these kind of things already AI,chat, gpt.
You know some of my blogs are Iwrite them myself but the
(01:08:37):
introduction I can say Ingmaruses AI or chat GPT to do a
small summary and introduction,because it saves time, you know,
you just input.
So now there's also lightingdesigners that start to use AI
to create concepts.
Now, where that's going, I don'tknow.
(01:08:57):
We were just at the beginningof that.
I think this question isprobably really interesting,
because even myself I'm not surewhether I want to dive into
that because I'm sort ofpost-career time in my life Do I
still want to go into that?
But I think it's very, veryinteresting and fascinating how
(01:09:21):
that impacts.
I mean, you can create.
I've seen conceptual designsthat are created by AI and I'm
like, all right, looks reallynice, Can it be realized?
I don't know right, butconceptual images, yes, could be
really interesting.
So I don't know yet.
I don't have the answer to thatbecause it's something that
(01:09:42):
really is fresh to many of us.
I have to say, in my 45 yearsthis has been an amazing journey
in lighting because when Istarted I had a fluorescent tube
and an incandescent lamp.
That's basically.
I didn't have a computer, right.
The only thing that we had whenI started in Philips was a huge
mainframe computer that was Idon't know the size of, I don't
(01:10:07):
know, but the room was probablyabout five by six meters,
totally air conditioned,humidity controlled and all that
.
I had to spend the wholeafternoon in doing punch cards
that I had to feed into thecomputer, go home to see the
calculation next year next day.
It will calculate overnight.
So I've come a long way fromthat level of technology to
(01:10:31):
where we are today, where wehave very innovative LED
solutions, now with data input,and now I think the next step is
with AI and what have you aswell.
So where we are going isdifficult to say, because you
can, with AI, you can createcontent.
That's the new element, I thinkfrom lighting design is content
(01:10:55):
creation, because lights notonly have all the colors of the
rainbow, you can get RGBW corechips nowadays that have
everything in one point.
It's not RGBW, no, it's like inone little chip you have
everything right so you cancreate.
So if you can drive that withdata or whatever input, you can
(01:11:18):
create the most interestingoutcomes.
One of the things we are doingwith nx mall, by the way.
We are creating some sort ofcontent driven lighting effect.
So, yeah, that's a new elementin which I'm not 100 sure how
much I'm going to dive into thatmyself, but it's certainly
something that you guys willhave to deal with in the future.
Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
Thank you again.
My question is regarding yourengagement and your skill set as
a designer.
Who engages your services firstand does it change part two?
Does it change region to region, like Annex Mall?
You mentioned Middle?
Speaker 1 (01:11:58):
East.
Who engages your services first, developer, architect, the
hotel gentleman I mentionedbefore.
Good question most of the timeI don't want to get on your bad
side right now, no, but most ofthe time we are engaged directly
(01:12:21):
by the client.
Right now, how do we get there?
That's varies.
I would say 80% of our jobs arepurely through referral and the
clients know us.
We are registered with all themajor hotel brands, for instance
, whether it's Marriott, hilton,accor, we are on their list of
(01:12:44):
approved consultants.
So there's a new project,they'll put our name forward.
It doesn't mean we get the jobbecause there's others as well,
right, but that comes throughthe front door.
Right, we get a call, we get anemail.
So 80% of our jobs at themoment that's how we get our
jobs.
I don't have to go for it.
We have established a level ofrecognition in the market and
(01:13:05):
standing that we are approacheddirectly as our that project.
You should go to KLD.
That's nice for us to have thatsort of status.
Then we have our relationshipwith architects, interior
designers, etc.
Same thing.
We have worked together.
They have a new project.
(01:13:25):
They're also sort of ourmarketing agents sometimes,
because we have had a very goodrelationship with them.
Hey, we have this new project.
You want to join us?
Same thing, right, so thatsometimes we are under the
architect or under the interiordesigner, depending.
Then same with with developers,but most of the time it's
(01:13:48):
through clients, directlydevelopers well, the developer,
sometimes the client also, right.
But then the actual marketing,business development,
approaching them.
That's only a small part of ourbusiness which I would say I
should do a bit more.
I will get more work, but I'mfeeling like it's okay right now
(01:14:11):
.
But if I would like to developthe business further, then if,
if I do very active marketingand business development because
of our standing and reputation,our track record, it should not
be too difficult to get morework as well.
But yeah, that's roughly how itworks for us.
Speaker 5 (01:14:30):
Just another question Is there any particular
lighting trends that you'recurrently excited about, any
upcoming ones?
Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
Lighting trends.
Yeah, I'm actually doing apresentation in Guangzhou about
the future of lighting design,and one of the things that are
happening now is about content.
Right, lighting is sort ofmoving away from your typical
(01:14:59):
fixture into being integrated inbuilding materials.
Right, so you will find carpetswith integrated lighting walls,
wall material, buildingmaterials with integrated
lighting, glass with integratedLED points.
So that is something, and allthat is dynamic, so you can
(01:15:19):
create all kinds of interestingcontents.
That's an important development.
So, interactivity with buildingmaterials.
We have a big trend regardingdark sky, being able to manage
light pollution and things likethat.
(01:15:40):
That's something that becomes abigger and bigger element.
And the third one that I wouldlike to mention is regarding
health and well-being, or evenbiophilic design.
It's like integrating thenature, the way our human body
works towards lighting.
(01:16:01):
I think that's also a veryimportant trend, where we look
at circadian rhythms and howlighting impacts on human
well-being.
I think these will be the threemain trends at the moment on
human well-being.
I think this will be the threemain trends at the moment.
I may have forgotten one or two, but yeah, to answer your
(01:16:23):
question, that will be threemain points that.
Speaker 4 (01:16:25):
I would like to mention Thank you.
I believe that is all thequestions, Martin.
Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
No, it's fantastic.
You've been great.
Thank you so much for yourquestions been great.
Thank you so much for yourquestions.
Thank you, martin, for sharing.
By the way, it doesn't stophere.
If they still have questions,they can channel it to you or
anybody else and you can let meknow.
Maybe I can still afterwards.
Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
There's an Excel spreadsheet already being
circulated.
No, no, no, no it's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
I mean literally, I'm not kidding.
If there's still issues orquestions, feel free to collate
them and I'll try to answer themin my own time.
Happy to do that.
Speaker 4 (01:17:05):
Crew if we could give an absolutely warm, massive
round of applause for Martin forsharing his insights, his
learnings, his experiences oversuch an impressive career Still
ongoing.
Obviously and there's a lot, asI said the lighting industry is
evolving and trending andchanging as we speak, so let's
(01:17:29):
give a warm round of applausefor Mr Martin.
Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
We hope you enjoyed this episode and you've gained
some insight or inspiration thatyou can take away or perhaps
apply.
If you enjoyed this episode, itis always appreciated if you
could take a moment to share thepodcast with your peers and
friends or leave a review onyour favorite podcast app.
Consider subscribing to thepodcast and our YouTube channel
to stay up to date with ourlatest content.
Do check out our onlineplatform as well at VLDcommunity
(01:18:08):
.
If you would like more, why notgo back and listen to some of
our previous episodes and hearmore from our thought leaders?
Thanks for listening and wewill be back with more great
presentations or interviews verysoon.
Until next time.
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